And originally too, I think that's okay. Kim, do you have that statement here? Hold on, sorry, I didn't. I wasn't okay. I'm just emailing. So pursuant to Governor Baker's March 12, 2020 order suspending the open meeting law, this meeting of the attack is being conducted by a remote participation. It should be noted that this meeting does not have a quorum. So this is not an official meeting. However, we have two guests from UMass who would like to make a presentation about their work on the PVTA. So that's what this is right now. Thank you. All right. Thank you. Are, are we ready? Yes. Great. So hi, I'm Olivia. This is Tate. If you don't know us and we're going to be talking to you about the Valley on board, which is a part of the larger PVTA effort to update the comprehensive regional transit plan for service areas in the Hampshire and Hampton County. Can you hear me all right? Yes. Great. So the Valley on board project is funded by the hope grant, which stands for helping obtain prosperity for everyone, which is a grant from the federal transit administration in the US Department of Transportation. The goal is to help environmental justice communities and the federal hope grant aims to provide public transit in areas of persistent poverty in the US. So right now we're building off the framework that was designed for scenarios and scenario planning is a decision supported tool that helps us plan for an uncertain, rapidly changing future. It helps identify resilient transportation investments that accommodate a range of possible futures. And they can tell us what we may look expect to look for in the future. So we looked at kind of the future of the future of the future of moving forward. So we are unfortunately okay, but I always encourage you to look that up, because you can't see what we need to do and that's a little bit of a camera because we don't have a camera. And it is here in the church. And basically it has to build from the perspective of growth in various areas people are不是, we're not sure what or where is. Folks want to stay connected. They were used as inspiration for four possible alternatives of the PVTA fixed routes, so like city bus system, so the routes with fixed schedules. So each alternative is designed to serve the needs of a changing pioneer valley in a different way. So, and, you know, while the dream PVTA network might include all of the new routes and flex zones and all the other recommendations from the alternatives. This approach helps us understand understand the trade offs necessary in designing or redesigning a transit system. Could you pause for a second because you have a quorum. Oh, sorry, just one moment. Who has entered. Marcus. Marcus. Hi, guys. Good to see. Do you want to reiterate Tracy what we're looking at right now. Yeah, so just Marcus, since you just started joining us, we have to UMass grad students with us right now. And they're talking about the work that they've been doing with the PVTA. It's a two year project. Excellent. Thank you. Okay, thank you. Yeah, so this is just, I know the maps here are pretty small so hard to see really but gives an idea of the four distinct root designs. So for example, in this one new small city over here. There's a two year funding policy, and the historical legacy of Pioneer Valley from these drivers, imagine a future with highly concentrated urban centers, as you can see depicted here, and federal funding for transportation, and then also younger generations valuing smaller car. So as you can see, much of the network envisioned in this redesign scenario centered around the major population centers, focusing on increased sprawl. So from this imagine future we developed an alternative that included increased bus frequency and more express routes. So each of the scenarios followed this process of future exploration and alternative development resulting from these four distinct alternatives. Yes. I'm just curious because I'm not used to seeing maps like this, can you just highlight what the hubs are in your map, what those are. And laterally, I have it on like my biggest monitor and I can barely read the legend and so I don't know if anybody, you know, watching from home or anything if you could just describe some of it out loud that would be helpful to Certainly, and I'll just mention that all of this is on the website. This is just, you know, to give an idea of what what the network sort of look like in terms of the routes. So, up here, I don't know, can you see my mouse. Yes, yeah. So this is the whole PBTA service area, right and that's going to include Hampshire, Hampton and like part of like up to Sunderland and Deerfield and. Yeah, I'm just not familiar with this. Yeah, sure. You can just talk about the hubs. Thank you. So, up here, where I'm circling right now is Amherst. And then Hadley, North Hampton, East Hampton, and then down here is like Springfield, Holyoke. Right. The blobs are microtransit select shared ride on demand transit service zones. And of course the red lines are the fixed route bus service the regular city bus service. And then the shading. I wouldn't worry about it just has to do with our population projections for the different scenarios.  Again, more detail can definitely be found on the website, where these are, you know, full scale resolution and there's will have a link at the end as well, but just to give an idea. So as you can see, thank you. So this new small city one is really concentrated around those urban centers as opposed to the Valley Stasis which is, you know, more of business as usual type of scenario with, you know, this is similar to what the existing network looks like. So Amherst with population projections fleshed out as if, you know, the trends continued as they have been, and then, cool, etc. Yeah. Okay. All right. So, I guess, the goal of this, the studio the regional planning studio this year. So last year those scenarios were really developed. So this year, we're working, we've been working on public engagement, particularly with current and future riders. So riders and non riders, as well as stakeholders. In order to have a final root redesign recommendation in the in December. So, we're looking for everyone's feedback at this point. And so just, you know, to give an idea of what we've been doing in Amherst. There was some tabling at the cranberry fair, we do tabling quite a bit at the Amherst survival center, as well as the farmers market. We've also put out materials, informational materials, of course, around UMass and held events at UMass as well but at the library and other similar destinations. The website is valley on board.org. And that's where you can go to take the survey and also learn more and view the report from last year which has more detail about these maps and so. Great. So what kind of feedback are you looking for? Are you looking for like kind of large scale feedback or like smaller like this specific, like how specific do you want feedback to be if you're kind of looking at it for the whole system? So any type of a feedback we have a survey and we have a few activities that we've done to engage other communities in the area. So whatever feedback you want to give us that would be great and we're definitely looking for how we can help have the PVTA like future designs help the people get to where they want to go. So really anything related to that helps us. And any comments you have on the existing network are also great in terms of within the survey which, by the way, you're entered to win one of a few $25 gift cards. So if you take the survey at valley on board.org and but it near the end there's a comment section and we'll definitely be reviewing those comments. And that's where that feedback go. And also if you're able to share the link and you can also send other materials. So and what can you just speak a little bit to what the timeframe is like for this process. So you have the survey open now like how long will the survey be there and then what are the subsequent steps. Yeah, so the survey will be open at least until the end of December. And then after that will be really taking up much, you know, a deeper dive into the data that we've collected and finalizing those recommendations for for the network redesign for the 20 year plan. Thank you. Great. Okay. So thank you so much for that presentation and our next. What's our first agenda item because I don't happen to have well do I guess the thing is do we want to give people I know that it sounded when I talked to Kate that he paid he was interested in maybe getting some feedback if we had any feedback to share now. That would be great. I mean I had I sort of left some room on the agenda for that if we want to give that a little time and also there's attendance in the audience. Like if they want to use this opportunity to give feedback if if people agree with that. Yes, no thoughts. I don't have any feedback at the moment. I'm going to go and look at this website a little more because I'm not that familiar with it. I was going to say the same Kim. Okay. Man, and I'll post it in places that I on the interwebs as we like to say that I visit. So, so hopefully we'll get lots of feedback for you all and it's really interesting and what is this part of like what are you like what kind of what kind of grad students are you and like, yeah. This is part of the regional planning studio for the masters of regional planning program. Yeah. Yeah, thank you. That's super. Well thanks again. Well thanks. So I just have one, like sort of general comment and that I mean I'll mention a specific example but I see this sort of a larger challenge sometimes is like I, and I know that we brought this up and we met with our the town's board rep to one thing is like, for example, the just the fact that if you live in say on East Hadley Road, which is like an area with a large transit dependent population in South Amherst and you want to go to the malls and happily which are only a few miles away, like that there are no direct connections. And I think part of that could be just in terms of like some of the funding and so on so the way, the only way to get to take the bus would be to like go into the center of Amherst and then go out to the mall so it ends up being a really long trip and so there are, there is a valley bike station there when they're also just people who walk. But it seems like because you know some of the funding and funding responsibility is at the municipal level. And perhaps like Hadley hasn't thought that that's, you know something that they have the resources to fund or that that's something important to them particularly if it's Amherst people who are coming to Hadley. So it just seems like that could also be a challenge and like some other communities in the region sometimes it like the, the services that are being provided are greater than just for the people in that town like it's also helps a region and so I think you know there's a lot of small towns who may not have the resources to help pay directly but those links are so important if there are ways to spend like CMAC money or other regional transportation money to help create those connections and reduce like the municipal share if that's a financial burden on those communities so just a thought but Yeah, certainly. Oh, also something I'll just mentioned which is not exactly related to this project that PBTA is going to be fair free from the 25th of November through the end of the year. So, great opportunity to try using the bus for. Yeah. Awesome. That's great. Yeah. And so Myra, you have your hand raised. Yes. Question as to whether you actually distributed this survey in places like Hatfield and Southampton that have not paid into the PVTA so they don't even have service. And I wonder if anybody cares in those towns, whether they ever do have service. So I didn't know whether you question them but they're not part of the PVTA. As far as I understand it. Thank you. They choose not to pay pay in. Right, right. So we distribute it through a few regional, you know, regionally, I think through the planning commission, PVPC, and a couple other, you know, send it out to regional email list. I'm not sure at this point how much response we've gotten from those commit communities in particular but we were just generally targeting. I'm not sure how many towns. I think because I wonder how you get a hold of people who have no service, because their communities wouldn't necessarily be interested in providing service because they have to pay. So, I mean, it's sort of like they're excluded. And I don't know how to get their opinions, but it'd be really good if you could figure out which towns are excluded, and how you can go out of your way to reach the people in those towns, because they seem not to have either they have a voice that they don't want service or which doesn't seem very community minded, or, or they are not being allowed to have a voice so. Yeah, actually. So I'm, I'm sorry. I'm not to interrupt. So Guilford, Christine Lindstrom is in the audience. Can you please let her in as a panelist. Sorry to interrupt the flow. Yeah, he might have, he might have just left for a moment. There he is. Can you, can you please let Chris in to thank you. She's coming in. And all right, so I think that sounds great. Well, thank you. Thank you for coming and telling us about this project and thank you so much guys we'd love to get an update so you know it's just going along right so. Now our next thing is the public comment period and maybe that's part of why attendees are here so. Yeah, I think we should. Um, yeah, I mean, how do you want to handle that Kim, do you think we should let people.  And let's get Chris and I'm not sure what's going on with her. I think Chris is Chris ever video off. Oh, maybe I'll text her say we're trying to let you in. She should still be able to come in with her video off now. Yeah. I don't know is doing some weird things tonight. So one of our people in the audience has their hand raised is Peggy. Matthews Nelson. Okay, she can talk. Peggy, will you, will you ask your question or comment. This is Sigurd Nelson. Oh, great. Okay, I just wanted to comment that I saw that the wildflower drive sidewalks are on the agenda tonight and indicate that we have been well back in 2014 I think Guilford will remember this. There was homeowners association of which I was the president my wife Peggy Matthews Nelson was the vice president submitted a petition from our neighborhood to get the sidewalks that we're crumbling replaced along wildflower drive in particular and also larks for drive from wildflower out to the bus stop out on old Belcher town road. Obviously that's been eight years, and we don't know where that request ever went to our petition. Initially we submitted it to the town, and then the attack got created, and it was forwarded. We were told it was forwarded to the tack. And I just want to reiterate that this neighborhood needs the new sidewalks they're over 30 years old they're crumbling. They're often underwater in the winter. They there's water on them at freezes in the summer if we get a rain, they're under mud. They're basically non existent, and many of our, our neighbors, people in this neighborhood walk in the street, instead of the sidewalk, while it's safer. One neighbor told us that her husband tripped and fell and broke his arm because of the sidewalks the roots are are in it. And we just want to support the tack in putting us on the list for getting those sidewalks. They're not paved and renewed because the, the have a lot of older residents in the neighborhood, and also we've had an influx of young families with children who take their strollers their kids with bikes. And these sidewalks are heavily used, and we have a lot of speeders. So once in a while we get speeders on wildflower people cutting through from station road to root nine. So I just want to ask for support to getting those sidewalks repaved. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks so much. I mean, I will say that we did put it on the agenda item because I'm not familiar with that petition that was done. I wasn't on the tack then I'm not sure how long ago that happened. We have heard from one resident a number of different times and I was put on the agenda just to see sort of what the tax role might be and trying to help on there. We also do have an item on the agenda just about capital improvements for appropriations for like this current year because there was additional funding. I'm also interested in what's happening, you know, next year. One thing is that when in the packet for the tack, which is not an online packet, but in responding to the resident who's written a number of times. One of the things chief living stone said is that a number of the people who are speeding in that neighborhood are residents in that neighborhood and it's not so much cut through traffic at least when they've investigated it so just bringing that up not that. Yeah, and I know probably I've been on this committee, the longest and certainly this has come up before, and that in response to this we, you know, that's why we ended up making the maps and the. And also the, the maps of the, the connections that were interested what's that called Tracy I'm sorry why am I feel like connector connector sidewalks the part of the network right you want to have a pedestrian facilities network. Yes, and what are our priority networks that we put together. It's definitely, you know, a consideration, been on our radar for a while.  Definitely it definitely came to us a while ago and I definitely remember this and, you know, we're trying to prioritize who, you know, there's a lot of repair that needs to happen, particularly to sidewalks and bike lanes throughout the town. And I think traditionally to when challenge has been that. I mean, we do have this item on the capital improvements and the additional requests, the additional funding but one issue has just been that there haven't been that many miles of sidewalks and roads like fixed each year in the budget. It's simply been like a few miles at most right and we have over 60 miles of sidewalks. So, a lot of people, you know, view their, their sidewalks and roads as priorities understandably and so I don't think it's even been a few miles. I think it's been maybe a mile sidewalk. I don't know. What do you think Gilford Gilford would know the number. Even with the new sidewalks, we've probably done close in the last two years we've probably done close to maybe 10 miles. Well, that's awesome. But traditionally right the capital improvements it's only been a few per year, isn't that right. Yeah, it's been hit and miss in the past. Okay. So we hear you. It's not that we don't. Yeah. Are there other questions from anyone else in the audience. Anyone else like to raise their hand. If not, then we will continue with our looks like agenda item is the bike and pedestrian priority network, which is what I was referring to previously. Yeah, so one reason I put it back on the agenda is we have talked about this a number of times right we had that marked up map. That we did I think back, we marked it up. Over on meetings. Right. It was during the yeah, but I think it was probably. I think it was in 2021. You know that we had four or five meetings that we went over it. And I know that it fell through to have a GIS intern. You know, we had a lot of work on the map and maybe that's something that can be revisited again. And there's actually somebody who just started working in my office who has like a degree in GIS. So maybe we could hire them on the side or something. But just that it was coming up. I was listening in on part of the planning board meeting the other night and it was coming up about the bike pedestrian plan. In relation to the development on Olympia drive to, like in terms of the different modes and so on. And so. It would be great. I mean, the thing is at this point, right, it's, it's almost been like two years since we marked it up and things continue to change and. You know, as new housing is built and so on, we'd want to. We need to change it again. And so if there are ways, you know, or what Guilford things might happen or.  Yeah, even that plan itself right I think it dates back to 2018 or 2019 so initially we really want to move it forward I know that was expressed as a priority to for the North Amherst. I mean, we can plan the doughnut plan so. But I don't feel for any thoughts on that or. Um, we can I mean if there's. We can probably try to do something. We are coming up on intersession soon if there's somebody that wants to work during intersession we can possibly work them in. That would be great. We're just having another. Well, we have some issues with space. So they definitely would probably have to work at home. We've had some issues recently with working with people working for from home remotely. So it just takes a lot of time on our part when somebody's working from home remotely. I guess that's the way to call it. They could be anywhere working. So yeah, we can see I think by nosing by we can possibly try to figure it in we have one person who's finishing up a project shortly and wants to do something different maybe we can move that person to this. Okay. Oh, that'd be great. Yeah. Well, I know to write that there's that master's program where they get this like graduate certificate with GIS, you know, and you and I had talked with them and. Or at least had emails with them or something like if there is some kind of do you think that that might work because we could go ahead and. I mean it's a little late for intersession because it's only like a few weeks away but. If you think that that might be a good resource for finding somebody to do this work. I mean, maybe they could do it in the early spring or something. Well, if you know anybody just tell them that. Yeah, okay. But if we knew that there was something available like we could go ahead and send it to the program director because I know that their students are sometimes looking. Um, I know most of you work for the university. We'd like to, if we could not make it a student project. Okay. No, of course. Got it. All right, thanks. The next item is the wildflower flower drive other concerns, resident concerns, potentially including the crosswalks near Kendrick Park. Yeah, and I guess so I'll, I'll mention just the crosswalks is I was interested in the timeframe of that somebody had reached out to me that they were recently rear ended at Kendrick Park when they were driving because they stopped for people in the crosswalk. It was a crosswalk on the south end of Kendrick Park on the main street on. I guess that's like East pleasant street at that point, right? So, um, I was just curious about the timeframe for like when those rapid rectangular flashing beacons and the crosswalk upgrades are going to be happening and if. They'll probably be in us a little while, but that was at the south end of the common other park. Oh, the way, well, the driver who said they got hit, they said that it happened at the north at the, yeah, at the south end. More like, well, no, but towards, um, right, there's, um, the Garcia is crossing and it like not at the roundabout like going, like, isn't there the crosswalk. Well, that's like midway down. Yeah, midway down. Yeah. Not, not all the way down. Right. So, so, uh, we, this is what we call them. We call them Garcia's. Okay. We call them pray street and we call them. Oh, I see. Okay. So, oh, and there are, there are, is that correct? There are three there. There's. Yeah. Okay. And pray for that's pretty good. That's three in that stretch. Yeah. We're only going to put the beacons at one, which is Garcia's. Yeah. Okay, got it. Um, could you let even to go for it. So what, I mean, what's the concern then? I mean, we have. Yeah, like the fact that all of them are using the, um, the fake brick stuff. So they're going to be nice and visible. Uh, I guess the concern is the timeframe till we get the, the lights on board. The lights are really going going at one. Yeah. Right. Garcia's. Yeah. And, and the driver also just was wondering if, you know, repainting them. Cause they don't all, not all three crossings have brick and stuff, right? To, is that? No. Pre streets. The only one that's still not the right. Oh yeah. Sorry. The one on the south. Yeah. Right. Okay. So I, I mean, and actually, so I just wanted that, that actually. I mean, actually, I'm kind of curious though. So the one place that we actually have it marked is the one where they got rear-ended and that person now wants everything else to be painted, even though the one that is visible is the one that they got rear-ended up. So it was kind of like, yeah. I said I would just bring it up. Yeah. And I don't know too.  Yeah, for sure. Yeah. No, it's the greatest. And yeah. The ideal with those lights. But it's just, it's good. The fact that they are my, it is so clearly marked on the road. But we still really need the ones that go from. McClellan across the street there. There should be some on pleasant too. Cause I see that all the time. And that's going to be a table too. Right. It's supposed to be. It's supposed to be raised. Yeah. Yeah. That particular intersection. It's supposed to be. Right. Guilford, does that look like that's going to be on the improvement plan for next year? It's next year. Okay. Cool. That's great. And is there more, do you think there's going to be more work on the stretch in North pleasant street on the West side of Kendrick next year too, or is house that looking for your schedule? The plan is to do all the improvements on that stretch. Wow. Well, into triangle. Wow, that's huge. There's painting on the street right now or our spray paint. It looks like there might be a bike lane that goes in there. Later. I know. I shouldn't be. Oh, because it looks like there definitely is like markings right now. What I also saw right at the pavement, there's also, since it turned one way, right? There's the markings to try to channel people into using the main part of the road and not using like the whole road with, like you've done that too on the North end of North pleasant street there. Right. To discourage like the two way traffic and people. Yeah. Next to each other. And there's been some doodling. So there's been some doodling. Yeah. They were measuring some things. You might see. Marks out there where they pulled things out and measured. Am I connected to a few things together just to see how it fits. Oh yeah. That might be what it is. Cause it looks like there's a bike lane. Right now. It looks like there's a bike lane paint. In spray paint. On the right side of the road. Closest to where the cars are parked. I mean, it's a perfect width for a bike lane. I mean, it looks like it's a bike lane. So just, you know, related to that. So a few weeks ago, the council had approved. Like adding capital improvement appropriations for this current fiscal year, the. 2023 year. Right. For sidewalks and roads. So I put this on the agenda just because I was wondering. If there were specific projects that are allocated for that funding, or is that still. To be determined. We're working on the list. Okay. We have a bunch of paving. We have a bunch of paving on it. And we kind of working on that list. Sidewalks is coming along. We're going to do the section of sidewalks. We're going to do the section of sidewalks. And we're kind of working on that list. Sidewalks is coming along. We're going to do the section of sidewalk. On North pleasant street from. Meadow street backwards. The boulders. Not the boulders. Puffton. Okay. Okay. So you're moving. So is that a list that you could share with us? Or are you, are you asking for input from. TAC or. DAC or anybody else or. But there, no. No. That's probably your plan that you previously submitted to us, right? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, North pleasant. Yeah. The plans going to the town will, you know, be what we submit to the town manager and say is what we want. Whatever he wants to. Ask. Whoever he wants to ask the input, it's. It's how and go. If someone has something they want to put in the capital, the town's capital plan right now is open for capital projects. You can submit it. Well, I never, I've never done it. So I don't know. All I know is that as a resident, you can submit a capital project. Sure. I don't know. I don't know how much you have to submit or how much information. Other than I want this here or something. I mean, so maybe that's something we could talk about next TAC meeting, right?  People can submit their own projects, but if, you know, it's a group, we had some projects in mind. What do you guys think. Paving a road street would be great. We could, we could revisit our priority. And our priority list. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. That would, that's a good idea for the agenda. Yeah. It's not on the agenda this time. I just wanted to know like sort of where that stood in. And in terms of the capital improvement requests that are out now, those are actually for the 2024 budget. Right. So to start in July. Is that right? There is so much work. On the. On our plates right now. We have probably the 23 construction season and the 24 construction season. Yeah. Probably all wrapped up with the exception of choosing what we pave in 2024. Wow. That's amazing. We have a, we have the mass works grant at Palm Roy on 16, which we're working on. We have another mass works grant on Belcher town road and. Well, Belcher town road from Southeast street. Up to about colonial village area. We have sidewalks on boltwood. And college street. And then we have the North common project or the big ones. And to tell the truth, we only have one. Contractor. Who's bidding on these. Wow. Same one. The same one. Well, we haven't been them yet, but. No. The projects we've been, the projects we've been recently have always been the same contractor. And so our, like, is anything like. Like the roundabout at amity and university drive or. They're not, they're not on the list yet. Right. So. Oh, no. No, okay. I was on the list a while ago. Yeah. I got it. What about, what about all the school, the, the new elementary school, like. All of that area. Well, that, I mean, that is not anywhere. Okay. Yeah. Well, I mean, you have that Belcher town road project, right? That's like, and that's the access to colonial village that, that will be good too. From the intersection of colonial village. And that's going to be, the access is going to be on route nine, or is it going to be on Southeast street. For the new school. No, no, no, that mass works. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Is it just, is it just along Belcher town road to colonial village? Not because colonial village, right? There's also entrances on Southeast street. It's just route nine. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So. And the reason I had put, I mean, I, it was, it was good to get some, you know, feedback during the public comment part. But the reason I had put the, um, Wildwood.  You know, residents have come to us with questions before. Um, and right. We used to on the tack website, you see even have the form that says like submit your request here. And just sort of just to, and I know that this is something that's still an ongoing discussion with the council and TSO. But when those requests come.  Like how can they be. How can they be. How can they be. How can they be. How can they be. You know, like in this case, right? The town manager responded to the neighbors. And then I guess that, that could be it. But I just, I just didn't know whether. There was like more of a roll for tack or tack should be responding to any of these.  I, I really, it's all very kind of fuzzy. But. It's all still very fuzzy and it seems to get fuzzier. No one. The council, the town manager hasn't come to terms and made out. Right. Really what they want the tack to do. Sure. And that's, so it, the town manager and he just asked for things. Um, he asked the police department to do some things on a wildflower drive. Okay. Um, the gentleman who submitted the letter from wildflower drive is in the audience. Yeah, right. And so, so maybe instead of, so Andy, I know you're our, um, our, our representative to bring things to tack. But what if you said to, to the TSO, hey, there's this group of people who have been thinking about transportation for all of Amherst for a long time, who are ready to do some work. Um, why don't we toss them some, give them something to do.  And I come to these meetings because I want to work. I want to do good for our community. And instead we pretty much just end up twiddling our thumbs, doing nothing. And we have this massive history. Of, of, of the transportation needs. We've thought exclusively about this. And I appreciate that our council members have. Many, many, many tasks to think about. What about saying, Hey, there's this group of people. Who have these. Who are ready to get our transportation network prioritized. And to take the, you know, guesswork out of which projects should come next in our town. Equitably.  Just sitting here waiting for projects to come our way. What do you, what do you think. It's a good point and I'm glad you raised it. And I will take it to TSO and ask the chair TSO chair. Anika to put it on the next agenda for discussion. I think that we have a big problem at TSO as it is. And you've actually. I did something that is resource to try and figure out how to, how to deal with it because I think that TSO is over. Loaded with issues right now of varying kinds. A lot of which involve a guilt through one way or another. Working on all of them. Because he's been dealing with meetings where we've talked about water and sewer regulations which really came from. His staff and for maybe your sake. We've been talking about street lighting, which came from a couple of counselors. And then we've been talking about review of the. The whole system of picking up a refuse and. Composting and refuse. Reduction. And just got. A little bit of assistance from DEP to help with that. So they're all of these different pieces that are flying around there. And we're not, and I was just thinking about this the other day. Because we've been talking for the longest time about. Speed limits, which is really what the wildflower was posed as. And we. Haven't really addressed the. The basics of it yet. And I was really thinking that. I needed to remind the. Committee of that. And so. Tying that together with what you just suggested. Is to. Talking again about. The role of your committee and how we can take advantage of your expertise. Works in there. Because, because. So we've talked on this committee extensively about lighting, lighting options, mainly as they have to do with sidewalks. And crosswalks and things like that. We've talked about standards for sidewalks, which I see. And, and crosswalks, which are something that, that. I see somewhere on some agenda. I'm not sure if it's. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure if it's the council or the council, or if it's Guilford. You know, we've also talked a lot about. About ways to. Extensively about ways, general ways to. Slow speeds in the areas. And, and we've also, we also have accumulated a lot of information, both expertise and like just chatting with state. We've also talked a lot about. What we've also talked about is what we've done with. With the city of Guilford. And, and we've talked a lot about what we've done with city of Guilford. Which is having to do with like setting speed limits. And we've, you know, we essentially have worked extensive Lee on. Our, our trends, our sidewalk and street plan, which is the goal is to prioritize, you know, which to take the. The squeaky wheel. connect all parts of town in an equitable manner. So, you know, we've worked really hard for many, many years on these kinds of issues. So I think, and everything I think pretty much the council, the TSO has taken our suggestions really to heart because we literally have thought about only this stuff for a long, long time. So please give us something like to sink our teeth because we like doing this kind of work for everybody. And I hate just like coming to these meetings and just waving our hands and not really having a lot to do because I like, we all are here because we want to make the town and the transportation and the sidewalks better. Well, and just on a related comment, you know, I mean, we do have our priority network plan, which we worked out, we worked out the networks. We just don't have a final GIS map of it. But I know that after the last like capital improvement cycle, like a few people did reach out to me just about, you know, how the capital improvement requests, right? I mean, sometimes counselors will bring capital improvement requests. So I had to come from other people, like we were not formally consulted about, you know, with the capital improvement requests, I know that sometimes at the DAC meetings, it will be on the agenda to say, hey, are there a list of sidewalks we want to prioritize or something. And again, I realized that some of that has to do with the, you know, what the role of the TAC is and things, but it just, I would hope that, you know, and Andy, right, you're here both as a council representative, but you also are on the finance committee, right? Like if a committee such as DAC or such as TAC or, you know, another suitable committee has already sort of vetted things and said like, these are priorities. Like if, as an advisory committee, we're allowed to have priorities, it seems like maybe that could give some, like weight to those or help just, you know, when there are so many capital improvement requests for the public right away for, you know, roads, sidewalks and so on that that can help prioritize some of it and give unlimited funds, yeah. You're making a good point and Gilford looks like he has some comments about it too. The sidewalks, as I'll use as an example, come at us, us, I mean, all of us in such a variety of ways, like there's, was referenced made earlier in the meeting about the fact that there's a joint capital planning committee process of obtaining citizen requests and considering citizen requests for projects and that that happens from time to time. And several years ago, there was a couple of people who felt very strongly about the sidewalk along North Pleasant, right, I'm sorry, East Pleasant Street. And the committee at that time, put it in as a priority to at least do a design study which I think Gilford would know more about where the status of that is, some come through grants, some come from citizen, just citizen complaints or, and I assume that some are coming from your committee, but we don't, we seem to have so many entry points and I'm not sure that in the end, the sorting isn't done by availability of funds as much as anything else, but that's where Gilford might be able to help us out. Gilford, you have your hand raised. Thank you, Andy. Thanks. I'm going to deny this, even though it's being recorded, but if we push and it does need to be, there needs to be a clear definition of what this group does, but the way this group is set up now, being an advisory group isn't working, it just is not working. It needs to change more to like the model Northampton has where it's a group like this and they actually, I think have a couple of counselors on that group and then there's staff involved with it as well and there's actual resources put towards the group that can actually bang some things out. And if we keep, even if the council comes up with this is what we want you to do and we want you to be an advisory group, we're still going to have this. Because what we have right now is we have the same things most parents have. The child goes to mom or dad and says, I want to do this because I think this would be cool or this needs to be fixed. This needs to be fixed in our world, not this will be cool. And mom says, well, I can't get to it right now.  And then sometimes you get mom saying, well, go talk to dad.  You get what I'm saying with that analogy, I'll stop. That's really how this has been functioning over the years of the attack. You've done some good stuff, but then it hasn't been able to get out of here and get into where it needs to be because the group really has no authority except to be advisory. And then when I send something up sometimes because the council's agenda or the select board's agenda has been, our priorities have been such, it won't make it and it won't go any further. Yeah. So I just wanted to say that as we talk about this, it really kind of needs to change and be more of a formal thing, more like a actual, I forgot what the Northampton calls it. It's called a transportation commission. Yes, and he's been working on that. Right.  I, you know, just the idea of exploring it and I would agree with you on that. I mean, I think it's hard, in the advisory rule, it can be frustrating for many people, right? Because, you know, there's no clear link chain of command. We don't have authority. It can be like sometimes if we're waiting for something to be referred from the council, like there's an item, it goes to the council, it gets referred to TSO. Then TSO, and Andy says TSO has a lot to do. And then it comes from TSO and then maybe TSO will refer its attack. And then it's just as a process that takes a really long time, right? So if we could be a body that actually had authority and could make decisions, you know, kind of one stop decisions and then go back to the council if it needs to have council authority, like that is just a cleaner, more efficient streamlined process. So not to take away from the council's power, you know, as the keepers of the public way, but just the council's really busy. The council has meetings until midnight and so on. So some of this work could hopefully be like delegated some of the weeds, you know, and come to the council with some clear plans and recommendations or something. So it would be great to see that happen, yeah. So. I just also feel like it would just really be bad to like lose all of this expertise and that is not elsewhere in the town or all of these people who are invested in this and have done this for a while and only come for one purpose to better our transportation network in town and to lose all that expertise. Clearly some of us have more expertise than others, but it's not motivating as a professional to come to these meetings if we're really not doing, not advancing the mission that we each feel we're here to contribute toward. Well, and I'll say too, I mean, we did recently kind of move in ahead on our items, but I mean, we did interview the town manager and I were interviewing some really good candidates to join TAC, right? So I think we could get some really good new energies and people with some great skills. Hopefully those appointments will go up to the council, you know, before the end of the year, but it'd be great, you know, as we bring in new people to also be able to get more done. So, yeah. This is me. Christine has her hand up. Hi guys. Yeah, I just, on the Northampton example, I just wanted to understand a little bit more if that commission was an extension of the mayor's office there or an extension of the town council, you know, sort of delegating or chunking out some authority around transportation and asking, you know, the body to deal with it. I guess I'm just trying to get a handle on who would be kind of creating something like that. Well, so go ahead.  I've looked into the transportation commission before. I think it's actually like a transportation and parking commission, like a lot of parking related things go to them. And I know that parking is also something that can take up a lot of time of TSO currently. So I believe in Northampton, a lot of them are under the mayor's office. Like even most of the committees, you know, people are appointed by the mayor for a lot of these committees and so on. But Guilford, what did you? They are, but they're counsel, they're like counsel committees. And that I, you know, and I did start to look at what cities, because Amherst is technically a city like looking at the different cities in Massachusetts and seeing which have transportation commissions and how those function and so on. And so what their bylaws and so on are to see if that might be, you know, a model that we could look at for Amherst or what we think would work best. So anyway. Andy has his hand up. Yeah, so I'm trying to see how we can draw this to conclude because this has been a very valuable discussion. Just as far as where we are with the charter, the two types of committees really can be created. Some come from the town manager, I think more come from the town, town manager, and which is the equivalent of the mayor because it's the executive branch of government under the charter. And some come from the council that can be created by the council and the charge in the appointment process is different. But I, you know, I think that the TAC is the executive branch appointed by the town manager. What I would suggest is that I will fairly quickly, as quickly as I can, this is a hard season with the, for the finance committee, some sort of stretched right now, but as quickly as I can, I will get a memo to Anika Mopes, who's the new committee chair and explain to her what it is that we talked about today and suggest that we might wanna have a meeting where we really talk about the whole question of how to your committee and TSO interact with each other and also what, how we might be able at TSO to use your expertise to help us with some of the issues we're dealing with. And I'll bring up the examples that you've talked about tonight to the best that I can do that. And what I will recommend is that a couple of members of the committee, Tracy's there a lot at TSO meetings, but maybe there's somebody else who'd be interested, Kim or somebody who could also attend so that it can be a discussion that involves several members of TAC in addition and try and see if we can get that on an agenda within a reasonable period of time. Great. When is that meeting? Well, we don't. We don't have a meeting yet. It's not scheduled because we generally meet every other week, but the agenda is really worked out in meetings with the chair and the president of the council and the town manager. They meet every few weeks and talk about what should be on the TSO agenda because the town manager is the staff person actually for that committee. And so. Well, and yeah, that's really helpful, Andy. I really appreciate that together. I mean, so one thing, you know, I'm thinking back to like a year ago before the new council, you know, took office and that at that time at the TAC we were having discussions just because, you know there had been some questions about what is TAC? What does TAC do? What's our authority? What should we be involved in? I do remember that we did spend time at at least two meetings, I think, like putting together a statement of like this is how taxis itself, you know these are our priorities and so on. And we had talked with TSO, the TSO chair at that time like Dorothy Pam about coming to TSO in like having a presentation. We were actually on the agenda and we ended up getting bumps and but, you know, but moving that forward I think would be great because I do, you know with that document was still out there and I even submitted it to the council president. You know, I don't, I think it may have been in a packet or maybe it didn't make it into one of the council packets but just to say like here's TSO and we're, you know these are the things that we've identified and we still have that list. So we can even go back to that, you know. Well, I mean, we also have not only our like street priorities, but remember we also like ended up deciding different levels of, what was it Eve? It was levels of service. Service on different roads. Like how, how, you know tax trust and levels of service. I mean, we did so much work on both street maps and, and, and I feel for it sort of like we needed, we needed staff support, you know. Like paths and sidewalks and details like, you know and they were throughout the town it wasn't one part of town it was the whole town. Right. I think it does. And could I just, I just wanted to add so just to elaborate a little bit, Andy I sort of led the charge to to do a pretty detail. I mean, it was working with Tracy and Bruce and several other people. We looked at like pedestrian and bike plans around the country and prioritization plans around the country and we consolidated them into, you know sort of best practices and what we thought was the best application. And from that we came up with a bunch of different criteria and methods as well as overall governance recommendations actually for the tack and the town. And then we couldn't and we also worked when there was a draft pet and bike plan we spent meeting after meeting four or five meetings going through the map and detailing exactly where we saw different paths. So this is like a year and a half of work I would say we spent on two projects. Yeah. Yeah. You know, the only thing that might be were you to find what are what are connector roads, residential streets and right in primary and that actually was very helpful and was used and disincorporated into the parking policy that the TSO developed a year ago and was used in the Lincoln Sunset. My guess is it's a different thing you're talking about. I don't know. An initial map of bike and pedestrian routes. And then we wrote words all over it about where we thought things needed to change and we were looking at where would be pedestrian routes where would be sort of what do you call it like an inheritance bicyclists and where would be fast commuting cyclists. That was what it was. So we weren't telling you primary roads or anything. It was really different. Yeah, it must have been Guilford's information, but it was it's very detailed and yeah, it involved a lot of. Well, it does right. It involves the connectivity like between different parts of town like in terms of like commuter routes as well as like neighborhood routes and things like certainly, I think this is something we could get a much more like deep, not detailed, but like a better overview and present it to the TSO and say, you know, we've done all this work. We've thought years about these kinds of issues and we're happy to continue to do these kinds of issues. Right. Yeah, all together. So our priority maps show our levels of stress, show our like where we need connections in the town, where we need sidewalks in the town, bike, you know, bike paths. You know, we've done a lot of this work. So and Andy, I will send you what we what the attack we had sent both to the council, the council president and town manager last year just sort of summarizing, you know, how we see tech. Because I mean, that was something we put together to I remember that. I'm sure I have a copy, but yeah, I'll go ahead. But we can we can resend. Well, that sounds you sound like some good topics to to talk about next time, right, so that we can because we'll probably just I mean, we can talk about with December, but maybe, you know, with the holidays, we either have one or two meetings, but we we do some of this prioritization. Just revisit our list and, you know, Gilford, if he's up to it, he can share his list and we can all. So I apologize for the side. I think that was this was a very important, like, side topic. And I guess we should get back to our stated agenda, which includes. The new approval of. Yeah, I mean, we can talk about any referrals from the right. So so Kim, just before we move on. So I mean, this is one of the reasons that I had put this for a bike and had priorities map on on the agenda, you know, coming just before we move on. Because it did come up at planning board, right? And the planning board is saying, you know, we're making decisions about different developments and things, you know, and whether they need to provide parking or things like that. Like the bike, this bike, pet, pedestrian, priority networks plan is like an important resource and we want to be able to use that. And so that's when somebody from planning board reached out to me and said, actually, two members of planning board reached out to me and said, you know, Tracy, like, what's going on with the bicycle and pedestrian plan? Like, where's the net, you know, where's the maps and things like that so that they can use that? So that's a resource for the town. And they're in the planning board discussions and decisions. So. Tracy, I mean, Eve, sorry, you're muted, Eve. Sorry, Guilford, do you have the the most recent annotated map because you was sort of as I was fading out of being on the tack, you took over annotating. So the part that I have saved on my computer only has North Amherst annotations. You had the rest of them. Sorry, my mouse was way over there. I believe so. I think we have all all the annotations basically we have it all. Yes. And then I had also went back and I looked at like our minutes and so on. And I had a list of like the four or five meetings that we had the longest discussions about the map for. And I had actually been thinking I mean, we could give somebody like the annotated version, but they could also listen to like those relevant parts of the meeting just so that they sort of understand like if somebody is not like could you could you share that annotated map with the current tack so that people who haven't seen it can see it. Yes, I think well, Stefan and Chris are the new members, right? Because the rest of us, but I can be trying to find it. I know we have it, but it's not digital. I think it's a hard copy because I was actually writing it on the map. I had on my desk. So yeah, I mean, we were meeting over Zoom, right?  So all right. Yeah, that would be great. I think it would be really useful because at least then the information is there and it's not just buried in your stack of paperwork. But it's, you know, even if you if you scan it, right? Then it becomes a copy that can be shared and built from. Yes, but you have to be able to read the notes. Sure. Well, that's well, that's it's own issue. OK. All right. Thank you. So what did we so in terms of, oh, yeah. So I did want to just give a quick update about the Lincoln Sunset Elm on street parking restrictions. So in the end, the the council, they did there was quite a big discussion about that. I think some of some of the members weren't here before we went live with our meeting tonight. But I mean, there was a motion that failed, but it was to refer back to TSO to like explore it further and consider things such as like one way pairs and other options, parking meters and other things that have been considered previously. But in the end, that failed. And as I was mentioning, I got, you know, I was mentioning at the beginning of the meeting, too, that was something I do remember, maybe I don't remember all the discussions, but I do remember discussions back about 15, 16 years ago about Sunset and Lincoln and having one way pairs. And there was also an research that was done by transportation students at UMass at that time, where they actually put in a barrier barricade for a little while. I don't know, can you remember where you hear then? And there were some barricades. I think it was on Sunset or something. So you couldn't have through traffic temporarily. No, there was there was never any. Well, not all the way. It was it was narrowed or something. There was something in. No, we never we never did anything like that. We actually the test was we'd put us those rubber speed humps. Then all right. OK. Then we decided all right. And those are made a huge difference. I mean, when I when I went back and I looked at like the letters, you know, where people had written in at that time, like before there were the speed tables in that area, there were I mean, cars could go really fast on those streets. And they did. They did. And and I know like in on Blue Hills Road, it that's a big deal. That's been a big deal, too. No, that becomes a big difference. So I think we just left Las Marcos, but that's OK. So I guess we'll wrap up. Let's just can we just look at the calendars quickly about four of us. So yeah, there's still four of us. That's great. Oh, thanks, Kim. Oh, Marcus ended up in the he's still here. Oh, did you get did you get kicked out somehow? You must be driving. Oh, that happens to me sometimes. So anyway, so it was nice. Yes, so TSO referrals. Yeah, Andy, do you have any updates from us, TSO? No, see, we're so eager. So yeah, I mean, I do have one question just about well, you had mentioned the 25 mile per hour speed limit throughout town. You know, if that was something I've heard that mentioned is a potential referral sometime in the future. But also is there just TSO have a sense yet? I know TSO's plate's really full, but about what's going to happen next with the street lights proposal at all. So street lights is being just beginning to be worked on in the initial presentation of the proposal from those two counselors who would suggest that the bylaw was referred to was discussed for the first time. And so it needs to work through the process and whether it should come to TAC is I think a very interesting question, one that I hadn't thought about. It actually does make a lot of sense because you've talked about where they are placed. I think that there's some people who have been complaining at various times about the light that is shining into their houses. And I think that what there's what the struggle of the sponsors were having is how much of that was the design of the lights and whether they can just be different so that they focus down as opposed to focusing around and others is dissatisfaction with some locations like the ends of cul-de-sacs. But right now, the thought was to try and focus first on the type of lighting and then focus and then come back to the question of location as a second set of issues. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, so I don't I submit a comments when I learned of the counselor's initial proposal back when the council was talking about it over the summer. And I I submitted comments just on behalf of myself again when it came up at TSO. I mean, and I'm not an expert on lighting at all. But I mean, I do see a lot of like transportation safety implications in terms of where lights are placed. And if a lot of lights are removed, you know, in terms of pedestrian safety, bike safety, driving safety, there's many factors. And so I would hope that at least that piece of it of that piece continues to move forward to and, you know, certain areas of town are being proposed to have fewer lights or different. I would hope that that could come to tack. But I mean, we're advisory. So we'll we'll advise when you request it. But I just wait. I just wait in myself firstly just because those issues are concerned to me. And I walk in a lot at night and so you see the challenges. So our committee actually started. We we were concerned with lighting a long while ago when I first joined this committee, but it mainly had to do with lighting and and where crosswalks were, which seems like a no brainer, but there certainly aren't always lighting where there are crosswalks in in streets. So I think most of the complaints that the committee was getting in the council are getting had to do with residential neighborhoods which aren't crosswalk issues. Right. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I understand. Yeah. So that's where I think our committee certainly could. Probably could tackle, you know, safety and crosswalks and and and and bike ways. But yeah, those kinds of issues seem more like up your up the. Councils like, you know, purview than ours, right, certainly. But we also discussed a lot about down like different types of down lighting that were were available on streets. So, you know, certainly when I know, I mean, one thing that came up at the TSO presentation as well as and I've heard also I remember some of the public comment at the Palm Roy West Street hearing is was about like the impact of glare, right, that that the impact on glare in terms of transportation safety, like if drivers are driving an area where there's glare or things like that. So it's not just about having lighting or no lighting. It's also about what kind of lighting and what can be done to reduce the glare that could actually obstruct vision instead of actually making it better. So those are things. But yeah, great. So we have I just want to make the committee aware we have four minutes left. So for anything you deem essential, Tracy, that we need to know, I mean, I'll just, as I mentioned, the tack appointments, there were people interviewed and the town manager will be preparing a memo that will go to TSO and then it will go to the council and we will have new members soon. And then I just wanted to just decide if we can at this meeting about when we expect to meet in December or January, if we think it's if we should meet once or twice. Andy, what is the TSO's schedule in December? Do you know, are you just planning to have one meeting or two meetings or not sure? I'm not sure the answer to that. I was assumed it would be two, but I'd have to go and look. OK, no, that's fine. Yeah. So we should plan it on at least having one. And Marcus has his hand at Marcus. Oh, I could speak. OK. Awesome. Sorry. I was just I'm on my phone. I've got to take my son to I.S.A.P. Now, what was I going to say? I can't remember. I apologize about meetings. Meeting. Meeting was the street lights. And yeah, the street. Yeah, never mind. I'm sorry. It's OK. Don't multitask too much. OK, that's not too safe either. OK, so do we want to stick with our schedule of meeting on the first Thursday of the month? Maybe that would be the week after Thanksgiving. You might just want to do one. Yeah, yeah. What about the next week? I wonder if that might be so. Yeah, it sounds like the TSO might not meet between now and then. And the TSO hasn't isn't, you know, meeting with. Yes, I was meeting on the eighth, supposedly. OK. Which would be the second. That would be the second. Maybe we should do the third. We could meet on the 15th. Yeah. If people are available. I am. OK, that works for me. Oh, wait, Chris. Chris, what are you saying? You're muted. It's good. All right, let's go with the 15th then. Stefan, you're good with the 15th. Yeah, OK, awesome. Thank you. That sounds good. And and there were some topics, too. I mean, we can circle back. It would be great to have a discussion about our priorities. And I did want to circle back. Just we did have good discussions with the person about the West East Rail and also and also with the Valley Bikes, you know, of those are things. And I know Chris and I have also, you know, had in the backburn of the whole safe reach to school and things. So maybe we can have some of those discussions just about with Valley Bikes. I mean, it did leave some ideas about how TAC could be involved going forward, you know, whether or not that's realistic or not. You know, some of it is just based on our time and our priorities. I also wonder if we shouldn't start just thinking more about the where the new school is and the new elementary school will be and like issues around kids getting to school and safety and traffic. And I mean, I know that's a super big topic, but maybe we could just take a look at the maps of what's existing around there and see if there's anything new that will be is planned. I have no idea around there and just think, no, nothing. So I feel like it's it's important to get ahead of that because that's going to be a big change and there's lots of traffic there in the mornings and the evenings. Right. I know. I know. But maybe we should start thinking about it. There's no there's no money and there's no final. There's no even preliminary plan. Well, it's not this is not all approved yet. Right. I mean, it's it hasn't gotten to the voters in terms of approving. OK. So no, I mean, I think it's important. I mean, one of the one of the reasons we got more involved with safe which the school is because of your in the safe which the school program there can be funding, you know, for improvements. I mean, it can be some considerable money to help pay for safe versus school infrastructure. Yes, Andy. Yeah, I was going to suggest that you contact Kathy Shane, who's a counselor is a counselor, but is chair of the elementary school building committee. And bring just have one person call Kathy and she has some good maps and descriptions of what the preliminary design concept is now for the school and how traffic patterns are supposed to work within the property. And that's going to then origin to what happens on the street. So you might want to reach out to the elementary school building committee. Sure. Yeah.  You know, what we saw is like the safe routes to school challenges. And we did inventories. We did surveys about how many people are walking and biking to school and what the main routes they're taking or what what needs to be done to improve. So we looked at we looked at all three of the elementary schools for that. But of course, it's going to be all different when we have only two schools and one that's one much larger school. Yeah, no, it'll be it'll be very different. So that's why I just think we should just get in front of that. But it is time. So it's time to adjourn. So thank you. Thank you all for being here and have a good night. All right. Take care. Bye. Happy holidays. Happy holidays. Happy birthday. Bye.


So, 50 Cent, right? Had some advice for Danny Brown. I want to know what y'all think about this advice. I remember 50 Cent told me that. Hanging with 50 Cent. He was like, man, because he was always talking about like, man, you got to make a hit song, you know, this and that and that and this. And I was like, man, I just want to be like artistic and like push Brown to reason like be progressive and like make like experimental type music like I never heard before and shit like that. Like, man, if you want to make music, music.   That's the words. Never been spoken. Hey, man, y'all, y'all. Shoot. He probably Uncle 50 now, man. Y'all let Uncle 5th, you know, guide y'all to the truth, bro. 53 dropin' game. He need to write another book. He does. Yeah. He need to write another book.  Like, bro, have you, do you watch Power? Did you ever watch Power? I watched it like earlier on, not anymore. I'm like a good couple of, I ain't going to say a couple of lot of seasons behind. It's funny. I'm weird because I was one of the people who were opposite or I watched. I missed the first season, three seasons. I never, I still haven't watched them. And then I watched everything up from there. Or maybe it was first two that I missed. I think that's why I stopped. And the season three was why I stopped. And it was, I never wanted to watch it, bro. My sister just, she got me. She got me, bro. But it was one of those things. The 50 had one of these things. I think it was like to Tariq, his buddy son. So it's 50. I forgot his character name. Ghost son is Tariq.  I can't remember the exact quote. I'm going to find that like, EJ, bro, you going to have to put that up, man. Like it's just, it's the funniest thing though. And it's truly 50 cent. I think they're saying something like ghost killed somebody. Right. So that's Tariq dad.  He said it so serious. I'm a father. But like the advice itself, man, we're getting off track. Advice itself, man. Like that's how I really feel. Yeah, same. It's music business. People need to hear that, bro. Yeah. Like people really need to hear that. If you want to create something for your artist. Oh, I just create music for myself. No, this is the music business and the music business is within the entertainment industry. Yeah. And this is why I always say is the biggest benefit that comedians have that artists don't have specifically music artists. And that is that feedback loop. Oh, yeah. Yeah. If you don't laugh. It's not funny. Yeah. Period. And they take it as is.  But like generally they kind of understand like, hey, if they don't laugh, it's not funny. I'm here for the people. I'm here for the people. Yeah.  It's deep. Y'all don't understand where it's coming from. And it's this whole, you know, there's a, there's the positive level of delusion that artists might need that they need to have at some level, especially if they're doing something different. But then, you know, there's a lot of people that know, no, you really need to hear that. Like you really shouldn't have been on American Idol because you actually can't sing. Yeah.  It's like, bro, no, you actually can't sing. Like I used to think when I was little, you know, Mervyn, I don't came out. I was probably single digits or something or like right into the double. And I'll be like, man, they probably put all these people on their own purpose. So we can laugh at them. Or we can laugh at them. I wonder if these people, these people, there's no way that some of these people actually think they can sing. Now that I'm... Now that I'm where I'm at, the things that I get set, the things that I hear. That didn't know that was a joke. That didn't know. I feel like a lot of artists get, I think, they get the love of the music. Like their love of the music, their love of the crowd confused with, I guess, what fans want to accept. It's like, just because you like it, just because you love it doesn't mean the eyes of the listener have to feel the same way, right? I agree. And I don't know, man, I feel like that's a real mature moment for artists to be able to say like, okay, this is what my audience maybe wants from me or maybe this is the type of stuff that I need to make to get me traction. And if they like that enough, then I can bring them back to maybe what I really want to make. Because like you said, there's a very small percentage of artists where that is true for them. Like that some people that's like, okay, maybe like you are a little bit of heavier time, the music is still good, but it's maybe just different from what we're used to. Right. But then it's like the other 99.8%, it's like, nah, bro.  See, I mean, that's it right there. It's simple. Meet me where I'm at. Yeah. And then take me somewhere new, but you can't just start over there. I don't trust you. I need to know, man. You off in the distance, bro. I ain't trying to come over there yet. I don't know you yet to come over there. What you holding under that coat? I don't know. I don't trust you. So now that I trust you, you can take me somewhere new. Yeah. Show me the block. And man, I like it over here. And now you get created like, you know, the typical Kaey use samples can get more familiar than samples. Right. Yeah. Outside of covers, but use samples. Very hip hop backpack. Then he does graduate, not graduation. I know. Right. Took us somewhere after he connected, right? Yeah. So you can either do that or you can stay in your corner and with your good music and just let it be for you. Or hope, right? There's some people that they get situations. God just blesses them and makes it happen even though, you know, they didn't do the work. And a lot of artists try to use those people's inspiration, but that is not the norm. That anomaly, yeah. That is 100% of an anomaly. Most people have to figure out a way to hustle, be strategic about what they create. Yeah. And then there's some people who even you'll create music and I'll create this other stuff as a throwaway, not as a throwaway, but I know I'm not going to put marketing dollars because the label isn't going to put money behind this because it doesn't represent the brand that they bought me for. Yeah. Right. Or they're in partnership with and you have, you have a fiscal responsibility, so to speak. Yeah. Like it go with artistry, but in music business, yeah, do. All right. So you have that. And then you have some people who they get off there. They get their creative climax by saying, hey, this is my main brand. This is what people want to hear from me. So I'll continue to sell this way. I might create something and just put it out there as a Lucy and let it happen. And then I also might write for other people. Yeah. Take that experiment energy somewhere else. Experiment. Yeah. Let them do it and they get all that, but at least I was able to get that creative itch out. Yeah. And then, you know, somebody like Drake every once in a while, you'll see them collaborate with somebody in a different space. It's like them dipping toes in the water. Yeah. I've got context. Oh, why does Drake sound like this? Well, he's on this track with this artist who makes sense. So he doesn't get a knock for as if it was his own song. Yeah. So there's strategies and ways to go about it, but you can't expect any. But it's hard to accept, have anybody accept you for all of who you are. Yeah. Let's put it that way. Yeah. And you said something important. 250 cents said it.  You just have to understand like this ain't, this might not go where you want it to go, right? Like it's like, it goes back to, I think we were talking about an older episode, but like consumer behavior isn't going to fold or bend for you.  If it's amazing, we'll bend a little bit. If it's like less than amazing, which it could be great. Great music is less than amazing, but great don't always, you know what I'm saying? Bend the culture, you know what I'm saying? Yeah. Good music don't always bend the culture. Yep.  It isn't going to bend the culture. And I don't know, I always feel like a lot of artists who like to use the different excuse for like trash. That's me personally. It might be a hot take. What do you mean different excuse for trash? Like they like to say, oh my music is different. So that's why people don't understand.  It's not different at all. It's bad. But I don't know if we have that context because we get so much music. You know what I'm saying? We have to listen to so much music. You know what I'm saying? So I don't know. Like I've literally had a concept in the arts that you think you're different. You do a 15th person. I've heard this week. That sounds exactly like this. Yo, I think that's something that I don't know how you escaped that because as an artist, I feel like they have to believe that in some sense. Yeah. And maybe, you know, an artist, y'all can comment on this man. Like I think there's sometimes maybe what's in an artist's head, right, is more different than their output. Right. And maybe you're not in the space where you have all the production, right? Or, you know, guidance collaborators to pull those things out of you. That's why collaborations are a real thing. I think people like sleep on the value of collaboration being behind other around other people to pull those tools in different ways to communicate things that you already got inside of you. Yeah. Because it's like, yeah, you you felt different. And when you're hit and you were saying something different in your head, but it came out just like what I already heard. Bro, you how different can you be when you got to beat off a YouTube? Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's like, I guess, situational context too. Like if I'm a Atlanta trap or if I live in Atlanta, I'm surrounded by, let's say, Atlanta trap rappers and I want to make punk rock music, I'm going to feel different because my media surroundings, I am different compared to my media surroundings. But then once you hit the internet, it's like, well, now you're not different. You know what I'm saying? There's hundreds and thousands of punk rock artists that make great, amazing, really good music, right?  Like big fish in a small pond to small fish in a big pond, you know what I'm saying? Like as soon as you put it out. And so I think it's just kind of like artists get caught up in an echo chamber a little bit. I'm not even really echo chamber, but it's like, like just that like situational context. I am different compared to my understanding of what is out there and my understanding of who is doing what. So I think it's easy to think that. But as I say, I think that's why we see it. What we see is because we hear multiple artists of different types of genre to know like, yo man, I ain't saying it's a knock you. You know what I'm saying? You still make good music. You just not as different as you think you are. You know what I'm saying? And that's not, that's not a bad thing. Cause I mean, you can have 10 people that make the same type of music, but one of them is going to obviously be better. People are going to obviously like one more than other. So it's not the worst thing not to be, you know, not to be super different. Cause being different today is really just being yourself openly. That's what I would argue. You know what I'm saying? This is true today where everything's kind of out there. It's hard to find different. Like different is so hard. So it's not even a knock on you. Right? To be like, oh no, it's not really that different. We've heard like literally, I mean, you, what you said, I want people to know like, Corey is literally talking about, no, I just talked to an artist that sounds just like, that is not a abnormal occurrence for us. Right? But it's not a knock. Different is hard. And that's why when it's done on a high level, it gets put on a pedestal because it's hard to truly achieve different. It should be hard. Be different and good. And good. Yeah. That's the magic combo. That's a whole another thing. Let alone great. So I think, cause different doesn't sell. And I think we think different sales. Right? And we all want to be different because we've seen something different, right? That might have inspired us, but I don't think different is as important as authentic. Yeah. Good point. Authentic sales. Different sales when we know you enough. Right? When we know you enough, different will begin to sell. Yeah. You gotta take us to that place. But authentic can sell when the music isn't even all that great. You just have something to say and it comes from a perspective and it feels so raw. Yeah. That's what people are getting from Glow Rilla right now. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Just feels authentic and real. Yeah. And people love Cardi on her come up. All right. You know, you have all these people that put on these airs on their music or whatever. And then they're just like this different person when they're in their normal life. Yeah. You listen to Cardi, you like, but she wowed her and when she regularly talking to she is on the track.  She sound funny. She heard various voices really like that. So different isn't as important as authentic. And it goes back to what we said earlier, which is just that whole idea of your POV. All right. Your perspective is the value. Last time when we went to LA on a plane, I was listening to, well, I watched a bad movie.  Oh, yeah. The out there. Yeah. I had never seen any of those before, but they had one on Howard Schultz. He's the CEO of Starbucks. I think he was actually the founder too, but I know he left and came back. He did like some Steve Jobs stuff like a company go down, come back, flex, show you how bad I am. But one of his business tennis that he talked about was not being so focused on being different and being more focused on disrupting. Yeah. All right. And the difference between different and disrupting because people always kind of think, well, I'm going to do something different. I'm disrupting, but disrupting is anchored by what the norm is. And so is difference is a contrast of what the norm is, but disruption is, hey, I'm going to give Mike unique take on something that already exists. You know what I'm saying? So it's like us getting on the same track, but you make a love song and I make a, I don't know, hood banger or something like that. Or we both make a love song, but I do it from a hood voice from more of a R&B voice where it's just like, what is your perspective on what's already happening? So if you can authentically cut through and give a unique approach to a genre that already exists, like that's what you're seeing now with the, what is it? What is it? The toxic R&B, right? Yeah. Toxic R&B, you know, I had like an old person moment the other day where it made me feel old. I was like, this should already existed. This ain't nothing really all that different contextually when you look at the lyrics and everything. And then you look at Trap Soul, right? That was a flip of basically still just R&B. Then you look at Neo Soul, and I think it was an executive who really like marketed that whole thing and put these artists in a batch. We're a new soul to, you know, say, hey, how do we separate ourselves? We ain't the temptations. R&B, yeah, we're not the temptations. We definitely ain't the temptations, you know what I'm saying? We don't got froze. We wear temptations. We don't got, we got the temptations, bro. And so it was like, how do I not only market if something new, but also alleviate that, that, ooh, difficulty that comes with being compared to greats that have already been there. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. It gives you more freedom because I reframed what you're consuming. Yeah. So don't, if you can just take something and disrupt it by giving us a unique tweak. And again, of course it has to be good. Can't go back to that enough, right? Yeah. It has to be good, but that's how you disrupt because we're used to it so we can consume, but when another thing that happens when you're used to something, it's like a cover. A cover is the best way to describe it.  Check it out. I paid more attention. No, not just that, right? But I paid more attention to you because I already know the song. So I know the unique qualities you brought to the song. Yeah. That's a good point. But if I didn't know the song, it's kind of like I'm just hearing it all. You know what I mean? And that's why I think it's easier for artists to not only get attention with covers because we know, yeah, it's just something you're already used to, but to get appreciation for their talent because we know, oh, dang, he did this and they did that. That was the norm. Yeah, it was a preset bar for it pretty much. It was a preset bar, so we have something to compare it to. Humans compare it. That's all it is. So, like, well, I don't want to harp on this too long because that all came from the 50s. Dirty route advice. I didn't know we were going to be on that long, bro. But you got to see, this is artist advice.


All right. What can be shaped? The topography, the form of the response. You know, this is a I think this is a this is a painting of Dolly by Dolly and if you know Dolly his paintings are quite odd to say the least and the more you look at that the more odd that's going to get but The idea is is that he didn't start out doing that day one He had a kind of pattern and a kind of way of looking at the world that was kind of twisted And he started to put that on canvas and and over time it started to get more profound And there were certain things that themes that always started to appear and if you're familiar with some of Dolly's paintings I want you to look at the shadow And in that shadow of Dolly's face is actually a couple of other paintings That shadow that he has in there appears in all sorts of his paintings So that topography the way that response looks got shaped up and the response is how he painted it, right? so and the sort of shading techniques he used and like the odd caricatures and the What do you call it? I want to say enhanced, but that's the wrong word. I Don't know like his year, you know how big his year is compared to everything else and all that stuff There's a term for that, but I don't recall what it is. Anyway, the The topography itself got shaped up how it looks then it improves each time And so this maybe you know that the only the ones that do improve will learn the reinforcers The frequency how often you make the response, okay? This stuff is called the market tree All right, so I'll get to the duration here in a second So that pictures of market tree will come back to that in a second frequency So how often you make the particular response you may not talk very often in class at first But then over time you probably talk more and more and more. That's basically your frequency of response being shaped The duration of a response can be shaped and this market tree. This is a unbelievably the intricate piece of market tree, but market tree is taking small pieces of wood and inlaying them with each other and making Painting or making art like designs or something like that So in this particular design start looking at how many different pieces of wood are here, right? There's a little one there. There's a little one there. There's one decided. There's another one decided There's one right there. There's one right there. That's one. That's one. That's one. There's like eight pieces in here There's a bunch here and an okay, let's go out here Let's look at all those and all those and each one of those little lines is another piece of wood, right? so there's an extraordinary amount of effort that went into doing in this and this is a floor by the way is huge, okay and The amount of work that went into this is hundreds and hundreds of hours So in order to get The artist the person that did this you got to think about how they started doing their market tree They didn't start out Doing gigantic floors like this and being successful They started out with something small and they worked for a little bit took their time on and they were reinforced for that The next thing they needed is something a little more complex So not only was that so not only was the duration getting shaped But the topography was and over time you get to that point to where you can work on something for a long time In order to earn the reinforcer the completed project and that looks good And this is an absolutely gorgeous piece of marketry and you can see that it turned out just awesome and then to think about the Multiple thousands of pieces of wood that are in that And how much time that took to cut each one out and design each one and fit it and sand it and see But do all those types of things it took a lot of work in order to make that happen Latency is another example right from That thing that can be shaped so time from the onset of a stimulus to emitting of behavior And this is something that we learn as part of you know an example here is relationship stuff So you learn that you know the onset of a stimulus somebody may accuse you of something or somebody may be in an argument With you and you learn over time to not to keep your mouth shut and listen for a few minutes, right? Listen to what the other person has to say don't start arguing immediately Right so that latency that time from onset of a stimulus to emitting of your response to it So you're reacting to the person So we can shape up that as well Intensity how hard you work at something so how fast you run how much weight you lift you know all of that stuff That's all things that are shaped and with the weight lifting people. Oh, it's just muscle building No, you're right. It is muscle building, but there's shaping involved, too You don't just build your muscles and stick at the same way You now need more weight in order to earn your reinforcer your reinforcer is maybe the feeling or the success that you get from lifting or even The muscle building itself So that's your reinforcer but you have to do more weight to do that You're building up the intensity you have to push harder you have to lift more and more pounds