CHAPTER 15. IN THE BRIG The brig was a small space about six feet square. Its four sides were made of iron plate in which holes about the size of a man's little finger were perforated. Through these the cell was ventilated. As the birth deck had not an overabundance of light, it was impossible for light enough to penetrate through the holes for a prisoner to read. In fact, the prisoner in the brig was not allowed a book. The only pastime was to walk around the four mast in the center of the brig and to peep through the holes, interesting himself in what was taking place on the birth deck. Every four hours during the day, beginning at seven in the morning, the prisoners were taken on deck and the hand irons removed while we were allowed to wash ourselves. Then we were marched back, taking the step the short chain on the feet irons would allow, to our places on the birth deck. The hardest part of the punishment was the restriction in the use of tobacco. As there was no way to obtain a smoke, we were forced to resort to chewing the weed. To a prisoner who has no friends on board, bread and water for thirty days is a severe punishment, for a hard biscuit and a tin pot of water are not very palatable. I had helped other unfortunates confined in the brig, and now the kindness was returned. Occasionally I would hear a whisper on the side opposite the sentry, King, take hold of this. Then through the hole in the iron partition strips of meat, bananas, figs, and other dainties were passed into me by my shipmates. An apprentice took a condensed milk can, bored a hole in the side near the bottom, and soldered the end of a tin flute to the hole. This unique funnel was kept hidden and was used only by certain ones when they were endurance vile. The third day a whispering voice called me to the holes in the forward partition. King, I want you to swear that if we let you into our secret you will not reveal it when released. Never, old fellow. Good enough I will be here while the wrestling match is taking place. This lad arranged it so that during the evening hours before piped down all the men's attention was devoted to singing, boxing, wrestling, or some amusement on the spar deck near the fore hatch. While this fun was going on the tube of the funnel was inserted into one of the holes in my cell and I was given all the coffee or tea I wanted. Long thin sausages were purchased from the bum boat men and the end of a boiled one would occasionally be pointed through a hole to me. Hand over hand I would haul it in. One evening the sentry saw the tail end of a sausage disappearing. He thought it a snake and made a cut for it with his bayonet. To his surprise he had a few inches of sausage. The joke was so immense he was convulsed with laughter. He was a good-natured fellow and knew he was observed by only a few of us so that he was in no danger of being detected in not reporting us. Sometimes the sentries were lenient for they, like us, might be incarcerated for some slight misconduct. A man is not a criminal because he is confined in chains or in the brig on a man of war. For a slight offense that would go unnoticed in civil life and enlisted man is sentenced to such punishment. I have seen a chained gang of fourteen men on the birth deck. Some were the best men in the ship but had overstayed liberty or committed some petty misdemeanor. The coffee funnel was always in demand. It did service for fully two years. Then one of our crowd was made master at arms and revealed our secret or it would not have been brought to light. The commanding officer was surprised when it was taken af for his inspection. I rather suspect he thought it mean of the master at arms to expose the instrument that had served him when, as a blue shirt, he had been a prisoner in the brig. We had sailed from Malta and were in the harbor of Port Said before my sentence expired. Again reduced to the fifth class conduct list, my liberty was restricted. Through the Suez Canal and the Red Sea we steered for Aden where we expected to spend a week at least. Liberty was given all classes and as stroke oarsmen in the whale boat I had an opportunity of seeing as much of Aden as I desired. From this place we proceeded to Zanzibar. As we came to anchor near a fleet of German warships we were called to get our scrapers and remove the flying fish scales and brains from our black painted sides. The fish must have made a target of the ship for she was the color of a speckled hen. For three hours we worked in the hot sun scraping off scales and painting her. It is only a couple of hours work to cover the outside of a man of war with black paint. Each part takes its allotted space and rigging a stage over the side we quickly dod the surface with woollen rags smothered in paint. Only in places where there is gingerbread work is a brush used. We had sail and spar drill every morning and evening. The executive officer delighted to show the Germans how quickly we could cross our yards and make all sail. As main to gallant yard man I did my best at my station and so pleased the first lieutenant. I was tired of being in the main top and wanted to change to some other part of the ship. I made my desire known to the first luff. To my delight he told me he wanted me on the main to gallant yard and if I behave myself he intended to give me the first vacant seamen's rate. Nowhere have I seen the water as clear and transparent as in Zanzibar. Looking over the side we could see the stones and sand at the bottom in six or seven fathoms of water. From Zanzibar we continued our search for the whaling schooner. We sighted the comorow islands and came to anchor on the lee side of Johanna, close to a cluster of huts which was the seaport of the place. The natives were ignorant of the value of money. They brought off fruit, chicken, eggs, and turtles in their canoes and were better satisfied with a polished copper scent. A brass button from a marine's coat or an old piece of clothing than they were with money. The marines lost several buttons and two apprentices served five days bread and water for robbing the sea soldiers of their uniform ornaments. One morning a list of names to man the first and second cutters was posted on the bulletin board. To my surprise I was listed for the first cutter with nine others who were considered hard cases. After breakfast the cutters were called away and word passed for the men whose names were on the bulletin board to man them. In the second cutter were men who seemingly could be trusted to give strong drink a wide berth. Away we started for the shore in charge of the executive and two junior officers. When we made a landing the first luff took the second cutter's men and an officer with him in search of Dr. Wilson's plantation. He left the crew of the first cutter in charge of Ensign Sukfen with orders not to allow us to leave his site. It was long after dinnertime. We were hungry. One after another we walked a little way from the boat as though gathering shells. At a given signal when Mr. Sukfen's back was turned we bolted for the bushes and kept on running till we were some distance away. We met a native boy who understood when we said Dr. Wilson and motioned us to climb the hill. We compelled him to guide us for fully three miles over hills and through bushes till we came in sight of the plantation. We could see some of the second cutter's crew and beckoning to them we were soon together. Away from the sight of the officers we secreted ourselves in a banana grove and with an abundant supply of liquor purchased from the natives of the plantation began our feast. I do not know what happened next but about midnight I found myself with five unfortunate shipmates in the berth deck under the Sentry's charge. Next day we were sentenced to ten days double irons on the berth deck and to pay six rupees each which money the first lieutenant had paid the natives for conveying us from the plantation to the boats. My comrades told me the first left was greatly annoyed when he discovered that besides the tripods and wailing implements of the schooner which he had confiscated on the plantation he had to care for a helpless crew. After calling at Mayotte and other Comero islands we headed for Mauritius and here found our prize. Halled up a creek her seams wide open dried by the hot sun and beaten by every storm she was a wreck unfit for sea in so much that the captain decided to let the useless hulk remain where it was. I had made a close friend of Coleman one of the marines in fact he was my chum as no liberty was given in Mauritius and there was but little intercourse with the shore I was surprised to find Coleman under the influence of liquor. Finding me on the folksle head he took my hand saying King old boy I'm going to desert. Before I could dissuade him he threw a rope's end over the side and let himself slide into the sea as he struck the water I was by his side. We were moored head and stern up an inlet which was perhaps a half mile wide. From a mooring place it was quite 200 yards to the nearest shore. It was raining and the awnings were housed which prevented the sentry seeing the phosphorescent wake we made as we struck out for the beach. I knew that sharks had been caught in this anchorage but all fears of such enemies were forgotten when Coleman cried oh King I'm sinking. Now is the time for me to exercise the skill of my early boyhood training in the water. No no old fellow put your hands on my shoulders and rest yourself. He held on a few moments a heavy drag on me.  I can't they are too tightly laced. Taking my knife from the lanyard around my neck I dove for his feet and released him from his heavy soldier's shoes. Then hauling off his trousers and blouse I rolled them with my blue uniform into a bundle and tied them into my sail cankerchief. With Coleman holding the bundle in one hand while with the other he rested himself on my shoulder we struggled for the shore. Now and again he would ease up on me and do some paddling for himself. Oh the relief when he said I'm on the bottom. Shorter than he I could not touch bottom with my feet. Exhausted and bleeding at the nostrils and ears I held on to my friend while he waded into the beach. For fully an hour we remained quiet till we had strength enough to ring the water from our clothes. The place was barren with not a sign of a house or any habitation. For two miles we trudged along the country road on our way to town. I tried to persuade my chum to return to the ship but to no purpose. He disliked his duties on shipboard and wanted a change. As we drew near the landing where the boats were moored I bade Coleman goodbye and bargained with a boatman to row me to the ship offering him my blue uniform suit for his trouble. But he was afraid of being detected and therefore hesitated. The only agreement we could reach was for him to pass by the ship at a safe distance while I swam the rest of the way. As we came near the alliance the sentry hailed us. Boat ahoy! The boatman made no reply but rode on as if he had some business in the bay. I lowered myself over the stern sheets leaving my clothes with the boatman and in about midnight was alone in the sea. Cautiously I swam for the bow, reached the mooring chains, climbed to the haws pipe and lifting myself up by the headstays clambered into the head. The sentry saw me. What are you doing there? Having a salt water bath. Well, go below. You can't bathe this time of night. Very good, Sam. I sneaked under the folksal head awoke one of the men on an anchor watch and had him bring me some clothing. Once dressed I turned into my hammock. I almost wished I had remained with my chum. But of all things, desertion was abominable to me. I could not bring myself to think at anything but dishonorable to relinquish voluntarily my rights as an American citizen by deserting from my adopted country's flag. We had not been missed. The next morning the Master at Arms reported Coleman missing and he was booked as a deserter. After a stay of a couple weeks in Mauritius we exhibited the stars and stripes to the natives of Madagascar and along the east coast of Africa, calling into many of their numerous seaports for a short stay. At most of these places we remained less than twenty-four hours. The day came when we moored our ship at the wharf in Cape Town at the foot of Table Mountain. It was delightful to mingle with people who could converse with us. Everybody spoke English. Again I had reached the first class conduct list and should have obtained liberty with my shipmates had I kept in different company. As it was my friends were men who drank whenever they could get liquor and made every effort to obtain it. It was now June in the year 1887. Every preparation was made to celebrate the 50th anniversary of Queen Victoria's reign. Some of Her Majesty's soldiers visited the Alliance and brought a supply of Cape Smoke, a vile liquor. We indulged freely. That night when I became conscious I found myself and four others chained to the stanchions on the birth deck. For this offense we were court-martialed and sentenced to thirty days' bread and water, a month's extra police duty, and the loss of a month's pay. But we were thankful to be let off so easily as we were told that under the influence of the Cape Smoke we had struck the master at arms and used abusive language to the first lieutenant. Had all these charges been brought against us we would have been kept prisoners till we reached the flagship and then have had sentence of a general court-martial. At the expiration of our sentences we were near the coast of Brazil. One clear morning we made the land and steamed through the narrow entrance to the harbor of Rio de Janeiro. We passed the conical peak Sugarloaf, its extreme apex, two thousand feet above the earth, and came to anchor in the magnificent bay, studded with small islands and as smooth as a lake. Here we found the old paddle-wield Talapusa in company with the Lancaster. The three ships comprised the whole fleet. Because of sickness in Rio the crews were not allowed liberty. While with the flagship we were kept busy not only with the admiral's inspection but every day we were exercising at something. We would be tuckered out from hauling on the smooth-board guns at Big Gun Drill when a signal from the Lancaster would call away all boats armed and equipped for distant service, or perhaps make all sail. In order that we might land and form the three ships' companies into line for Battalion Drill the fleet got underway and steamed outside the harbor to St. Catarina, a quarantine station. At a given signal from the flagship the crews manned their boats, armed and equipped for heavy marching we rode for the beach and landed in the surf near the old hospital. We only landed twice, for on the third morning a yellow flag was run up on a four-truck. The signal was made to the admiral that we had a case of smallpox on board. As soon as this was known three blue jackets and one marine joined Togerson's religious circle. I must do justice to the marine and say he proved to be a strong Christian fellow even though he began his new life through fear of death by smallpox. We steamed back to Rio where within a week five men were sent to the hospital with smallpox. Two of these died. To check the spread of the disease we were ordered to proceed to Bahia and their fumigate. We had just passed out of the entrance to Rio Harbor when Mr. Tyler, the officer of the deck, shouted to me in the main top, come down from aloft. I can't come down now, sir. I'm coiling the Tagallant Yard rope in the top, and if I let it go it will run back over the top of the deck. Come down, I say. Aye, aye, sir. I let go the Yard rope. The weight hanging from the top to the deck hauled the portion of the Yard rope I had coiled into the top over the top netting. Snake-like it twisted itself around Mr. Tyler who was on deck under the main top and tumbled him over and over. For this I was put on the report and next morning brought before the commanding officer. I told my story and claimed that I had obeyed orders. It was of no avail. Commander McGregor sentenced me to five days' bread and water in the brig. I was pleased when the ship's rider told me that for laughing at Mr. Tyler when I saw him twisted about in the falling coils of the Yard rope I had not been lowered on the conduct list. In a few days we steamed into the harbor of Bahaya and anchored in front of the city which is beautifully situated partly on a series of hills and partly at their base. We were now ordered to spread all our clothes and bedding on lines on the berth deck. Large iron markets used for hoisting ashes from the fire room were placed here and in them sulfur was burned while the hatches and ports were kept closely fastened. We lived on deck under the awnings during these two days we were fumigating and then proceeded to Pernambuco to give liberty to the crew. In Pernambuco we moored the alliance inside the long reef which affords excellent anchorage for small ships. The large steamers anchor outside and transfer their cargoes by means of lighters. This coral reef is connected with the city by an old bridge. The upper end is joined to the land by a sand pit. All the crew whether on the first or fifth conduct list were allowed 24 hours on shore. There is plenty of amusement for seamen in this place. The streets and sidewalks are wide and clean and the public edifices would be creditable anywhere. After every man had enjoyed a run on shore we filled our coal bunkers and steamed back to the flagship at Rio. Hagen, the captain of the foretop, had been ill and was growing worse every day. He was liked by all of us. Anxiously we watched by his bedside and hoped for his recovery. But he failed rapidly and while in Rio passed away. The paymaster negotiated with a Rio undertaker to furnish a coffin. When it was brought on board it received all attention. It was the greatest curiosity of the crews. When Hagen was placed in it it was so shallow that the body lying in it was distinctly visible above the sides. The lid was shaped like the roof of a house made of two sloping boards meeting and forming a ridge. This cover worked on hinges like the lid of a trunk. Our departed shipmate had professed the Roman Catholic faith. Therefore the services of a priest were engaged. Four boats filled with men towed by the steam launch went with the body to the shore near the cemetery. We formed into line and marched to the grave. Of all the testable places none could equal this cemetery in filth. The people were buried in quick lime and at the end of two years the graves were opened for the use of other bodies. We passed rows of opened graves. The soil thrown up on the embankment was filled with bones and skulls and partly decayed human bodies. We were glad when the service was ended. As soon as the priest had read the prayers for the dead and sprinkled the strange coffin with holy water we beat a retreat to the gate formed into line and marched to the boats. Before we left Rio we raised money enough to purchase the grave for forty years and erected a stone to the memory of our beloved shipmate. I was glad that in the funeral party I was not in the whale boat. The boat keeper had in some way filled the boat's water breaker with native liquor and by the time we reached the ship several men were put below under the cemetery. Again the fleet was together. The trip southward was uneventful. The ocean was calm and we kept well out to sea till we sighted Maldonado and headed up the river Rio de la Plata. In a few hours we were at anchor in Montevideo Bay. For seven months we remained here. The harbor had a warlike appearance as an imposing number of warships of almost every nation was anchored near us. For a little diversion we would steam outside the river and exercise at target practice. A trio of doomed barrels were lashed together and cast overboard. At a distance of a mile we would pour shot and shell with profusion and rapidity to resemble an engagement. We indulged in these demonstrations once in three months till our quarterly allowance of ammunition was exhausted. The men on the first class list obtained liberty every other day. We became tired of the city, a clean well built place of one story flat roofed houses. Montevideo has its sailors district. The men from the merchant ships and war vessels were welcomed in the numerous dance halls on Calais Saint Teresa and at the rum shops which were kept by English and American broken down seamen. Occasionally a bullfight on a Sunday afternoon would create a diversion and at times while at anchor a lively pampereau would stir up the shipping creating a change in our humdrum existence for a few days at least. Once we weighed anchor and steamed about a hundred miles up the river to an island where we were exercised in rifle and pistol target practice. We must have been on the station about two years when the alliance was ordered to Rio on special service. The Talapusa was detailed to survey the entrance of the river Platte. To complete the compliment of men so that the surveying work could be accomplished twenty men from the alliance were transferred to her. I asked to be sent to the Talapusa believing that if I could be away from my old associates and among strangers I might then gain a reputation for good behavior. I was stationed on the running boat making several trips to shore daily. For two weeks there was no report against me and I was beginning to flatter myself that I should have a splendid report to take to my old ship on her return. One afternoon we had to wait at the wharf for the mail orderly. The coxswain of the boat allowed one of his crew to purchase a bottle of gin from Dirty Dick's Saloon near the landing. Dirty Dick was an American who kept open account for any man of war's man as he knew he would receive his money when we were paid. The bottle of gin was quickly emptied and more was purchased. I only remember receiving a stunning blow on the head while engaged in an all-round rumpus in the boat and falling over the side into the bay. When I came to myself I, with others of the boat's crew, was a prisoner on the berth deck. The mail orderly told me that in the scuffle alongside the wharf I was knocked on the head with the tiller and falling overboard sunk to the bottom. The crew of a Brazilian warship's boat came to our assistance or we should have all been drowned. I was court-martialed and sentenced to thirty days double irons on bread and water full ration every fifth day. This time I lost no pay but felt hungry while in the brig. When my sentence was served the talipusa was steaming from one end of the mouth of the river to the other taking soundings. Here I had every chance to gain perfection in casting the hand-led. All day on deck we were in the canvas apron taking soundings and as our reports were to be put on record we were forced to be accurate. At the end of three months the ships were together again and we transferred back to the alliance. I felt mortified and ashamed as I mustered on the quarter-deck with my bag and hammock. My life seemed to amount to very little. While waiting for the first luff to say what part of the ship we were to be stationed in, Lieutenant Alan C. Kelton, USMC, came on deck from the ward room. Noticing me he walked over and shook hands with me saying, King, I'm glad to see you back with us. We have missed you. This handshake and kind greeting from Mr. Kelton did me lots of good. I felt I still had the respect of one man and would do my best to behave myself. I kept away from several old associates and although I could not join Toggerson's religious band, I stayed much in his company and with others like him and during the rest of the cruise I remained on the good conduct list. End of Chapter 15 Chapter 16 of Dog Watches at Sea This is a LibriVox recording. All LibriVox recordings are in the public domain. For more information or to volunteer, please visit LibriVox.org. Dog Watches at Sea by Stanton H. King. Chapter 16 Homeward Bound Our carpenters mate won the capital prize in the month of Hideo Lottery and for once this old shellback had all the money he wanted. In Montevideo the gambling houses conducted their nefarious business openly. The roulette table and lottery were in full swing using almost every store and every policeman and soldier to aid them in their villainous trade. At every corner the boys sold lottery tickets and the bumboat man supplied the ships. The first liberty that was given the carpenter he remained on shore eight days and then was brought back by the shore authorities. The master at arms coveted the money which this man had and clandestinely sold him liquor charging him an exorbitant price for every skin of liquor he obtained. I heard of this fraudulent transaction and watched for an opportunity to catch our chief of police. One evening I saw the master at arms take a skin of liquor from one of the crew of the captain's gig. Two other men and myself saw him pass the liquor to the carpenter's mate and receive the money. Pouncing upon him we took the liquor and carried it to the officer of the deck making a report against the master at arms. He was tried by a summary court-martial and sentenced to be disrated to a landsman. This was all spite on our part. The master at arms had been hateful to us. While he overlooked the petty faults of others he was ever on the alert to find some charge against us. No longer chief of police or a petty officer stripped of his brass buttons and in the same uniform as myself we met one dark night on the folksle head and had it not been for the interposition of the new master at arms we would have badly crippled each other. As it was we were both unfit for duty for some days. At this stage of the cruise we had changed our captaincy. Commander George W. Pigman had taken command of our ship. Next morning we were brought before him. After looking us over he said, You seem to have punished each other enough. I am told it's an old sore between you two men. Don't let me hear of any more trouble between you. Go forward. The ex-master at arms was disgraced. He felt humiliated and having asked for his discharge it was granted him. On account of some disturbance regarding a lumber-laden schooner in the Straits of Magellan we were ordered to proceed there in the dead of winter. Every mess laid in a stock of sea-stores. Pea-coats were issued to those who had done and away we sailed to the southward. Every day it grew colder and continued so till the coast of Patagonia was sited near the entrance to the Straits. We entered against a heavy current past Elizabeth Island covered with numerous birds of many kinds mostly penguins and gulls and about a hundred miles from the Atlantic came in sight of Punta Arenas Sandy Point as it is best known to English people. We dropped anchor about a mile from the shore. I do not know how the trouble regarding the schooner was settled. We remained in Sandy Point several days. We were allowed to visit the shore. We sat on a beach at the foot of a hill consisting of a fort, a church, some old government barracks and one or two public buildings. These with several one-story houses built so as to form streets comprised the whole of Punta Arenas. While here one of the large Pacific male steamers grounded father up the Straits and after discharging much of her cargo it took the united efforts and steam power of another of the company steamers and our ship to haul her from the beach. We steamed back to Montevideo and after taking a run up the Plata called at Rosario and Assuncion and a few minor places we returned to our old anchorage to await the arrival of the Cursage which was on her way to Montevideo with relief crews for the Alliance and Talapusa. One afternoon the quartermaster reported a warship steaming into harbor. Signals were exchanged and the news went over the fleet that the incoming vessel was the Cursage. My three years enlistment had expired. Now I rejoiced to know that in a very few days I would be homeward bound once more. Although there was not a single person whom I felt would be glad of my return to the United States no one to greet me there still I felt it good to be returning to an American port which would end my enlistment. Our accounts were signed and with bags and hammocks we were transferred to the Cursage. At the command all hands up anchor for home the quartermaster hoisted to the breeze our homeward bound pennant three hundred feet long with a gilded ball at the end trailing far astern. Amid the cheers of all the men on the warships in the harbor and the sweet sound of the flagship's bands playing home sweet home we bade farewell to the Spanish Maine. No sooner were we clear of land than the mooring chains were unbent and stowed below. The jackasses were taken from the manger and with haws pipes plugged we headed for home. A few days out we sighted the uninhabited Brazilian island Trinidad. Here we had a splendid opportunity to try our hands at big gun target practice. We opened fire on the hills and plowed the soil with our shot and shell. We crossed the equator and in another week were in sight of land. As we drew near this island we passed many flying fish boats with masts unstepped. The Negro fishermen were catching fish. We could see the windmills on shore and everything seemed to resemble Barbados. Meeting the first lieutenant I dared to question him. Is that Barbados, Mr. Belknap? Yes, King, it is. Are we going to stop there? Yes, only for a few days, to call up. During my three years' cruise my shipmates had looked forward with keen pleasure to the arrival of the male to hear from their friends at home. I had not received a word from anyone. In places where I had seen good women on the street the thought of my mother had come to me and I dashed it away and thought of other things. As we anchored in Carlisle Bay I did not then allow myself to think she was gone forever. With the longing to see my father and sisters and to be in the old home once more I approached the officer of the deck and asked for liberty. Commander Alan D. Brown granted me forty-eight hours on shore and told the paymaster to give me ten dollars. On reaching the wharf I engaged a carriage and told the driver to hasten to Paynes Bay. We passed the old schoolhouse and the chapel with its small burying-ground. At last the old home hove in sight. Instead of the wide open shutters and the evidence of human life, blinds and doors were shut and no sign of human beings was there. We drove up the gap. I sprang from my carriage, my heart breaking in its loneliness and wrenching the front door open I passed through the vacant front rooms and entered my mother's bedroom. Of all places this was the most desolate to me. Here in this room I had knelt with my brothers and sisters at the foot of her bed every morning and repeating with her our daily prayer we gave thanks to God. Now not a piece of furniture remained, not a soul to welcome me home. In my grief I cried, Mother, Mother, where are you? I think I hear the echo mocking me as it sounded, where are you? The natives heard that I had returned and as I reached the front door intending to make inquiries as to the whereabouts of my father, one of our old Negro servants threw her arms about my neck and sobbing with me cried, Massa Harry, you mammy is dead. I know it, Sarah, where is Papa? He's at Carrington's house on the hill. Afflicted with blindness in his old age my father had been turned from his home while it and all he owned were sold to the highest bidder. Renting a small house not far from the old home his youngest daughter in Barbados was doing her best to make his pension, provide food and shelter for him. I spent forty-eight hours in his company and when I left him it was a sad farewell. We both believed it was the last time we would meet on earth. It was so, for he has since passed beyond all trouble and care. I reported on board the cursage and in about ten days we were at Hampton Roads awaiting orders from Washington. Word came for us to proceed to New York and there discharged the crew. There were men who had never been in the brig. In fact, they had been considered good conduct men the whole of the crews. I was astonished when I saw them given small discharges. My question was, what will my discharge be? When Mr. Belknap handed me my parchment he said, King, if it was in my power to change your discharge I would do it. I don't understand how you were recommended for a continuous service certificate by the Executive Officer of the Alliance, but here it is, take it. Sure enough my discharge was written on the face and titled to an Honorable Discharge. I looked it over carefully. Was it possible that after three court marshals and the sentences I had served in the brig I could be so honorably discharged? On reading the conduct record I was pleased to see, seamanship, excellent, gunnery, very good, industry, excellent, obedience, good, cleanliness, very good. Average standing for term of enlistment, very good. Yes, I had always kept neat and clean. Was implicitly obedient when in my sober mind active and quick in movement. I gave satisfaction at my stations both aloft and on deck and manifested an interest in every drill and exercise. Although the mark for obedience was only three, the other qualifications entitled me to twenty out of a possible twenty-five. No longer an enlisted man I purchased a suit of clothes. With some of my shipmates I squandered my money in New York. Within three weeks appeared on the deck of the old Vermont ready to enlist again. I passed the doctor's examination and was considered sound and body, but when the apothecary emptied a small cardboard box of wool on the table for me to put the different colors in heaps by themselves, my hopes were blasted. Although I knew it was impossible for me to do it, I made the attempt. My effort was a fearful mixture of colors. The doctor declared me colorblind and rejected me. There was one chance left. My discharge had not been tampered with, so before word of my rejection could be sent to Washington, I borrowed a few dollars of an old shipmate and started for Boston. I had hopes of bluffing the old apothecary on the Wabash again. Here I encountered the same difficulty. The box of wool was passed me to separate the skeins and place all of one color in heaps by themselves. The red, green and brown were more than mixed, though I did my best, so for the second time I was rejected. What was I to do? I had wasted my earnings and had not a cent of my own. The only thing was to find a sailing ship and continue my days on a windjammer. Reaching the spar deck, I met Mr. Farnholt, the executive officer of the Wabash, who said, King, I have a vacancy for a landsman in the ship's company. Will you take it? Yes, sir, I quickly replied, glad indeed to take any rate, even though it was at the bottom round of the ladder. Very well, stay on board till I get permission from Washington to wave your color blindness. In a few days a favorable answer was received, and as a landsman I was enrolled on the Wabash, a special service man on that ship for the period of one year. I thereby lost the three months' pay to which my honorable discharge entitled me had I again enlisted for general service. I held my rate as landsman for six weeks, at which time the captain of the folksal was discharged and I was given his rate. The year passed quickly and I enlisted for another year and was shortly after rated quarter gunner. My duties consisted of caring for the arms and ammunition, drilling the recruits and training them in the different exercises for sea service. Although I was not reported at any time I deserved to be, for with others I yielded to the temptation of supplying the money big discharge men, the old timers with liquor. We ran great risks to smuggle it on board that we might have money to squander in the dives outside the Navy Yard gate and in the north end of Boston. In the summer of 1890 I had just passed my 23rd birthday. Although so young I had lived many years of recklessness and wrongdoing. My associates were of the worst kind. I did not care for anything different. Perfectly satisfied I lived only for the day. Of the future and what it had in store for me I cared nothing. I expected the only termination of a man of war man's life, a pension in old age. I had no plans or ambitions, a mere animal. Worse off than some animals, for they at least had someone who bestowed affection on them. Still I was not unhappy. Only when my mother's face came to my mind and I allowed myself to think of her did a trace of good thought or a longing for something better enter my life. At this stage of my experience a large company of young women came on board the Wabash. It was Sunday afternoon. Old Bob Wilkes was on liberty and I was acting Boson's mate in his place. In a little while the officer of the deck shouted, Boson's mate, pass the word. Any men who wish to attend a temperance meeting lay aft on the gun deck. The rest of the men keep silence around the decks. These good women were members of the Charlestown Young Women's Christian Temperance Union and had asked permission to hold a meeting thinking they might be of help to some of the men. I kept away from their company. The very sight of these women brought thoughts of my mother and my sisters. Home and fond recollections filled my mind. To banish such thoughts I became enraged and as I blew my whistle and passed the word the officer of the deck had given me I whistled again and shouted, Get forward everybody and fill the scuttle-butt. It did not require all the men to do this work. Some went aft to the meeting but I kept many of them jerking on the freshwater pump handle and did my best to forget the gathering aft. Standing forward on the gun deck by the scuttle-butt watching that it did not overflow I could see the gathering of people aft. Presently a sound, the sweetest of my life, reached my ears. Two young women were singing a hymn. The gospel bells are ringing. As I listened my mind travelled back to my boyhood days when Sanky's hymns had just been introduced into Barbados. I thought of the days when, with my younger brother and sisters, we sang that very hymn at my father's side. I no longer desired to fight against the inrushing thoughts of home and loved ones but allowed every remembrance of my mother's face and life to enter my being. At any other time I should have dreaded the ridicule of my shipmates and given these Christian people a wide berth. Shouting to the men below, that'll do the pump. I walked aft and seated myself on a bench in front of the singers. Safe in the arms of Jesus, they sang, and then the sweet by and by. I sobbed as though my heart would break. I was a boy, again in the presence of my mother, and seemed to be telling her of my wasted life. It was as though her voice talked to me and reasoned with me. I decided then and there to sever myself from every evil association and to be what she would have me. Now I have finished these experiences of my Bohemian life. I have confined myself to incidents on board ship and to a few happenings on shore as a sailor. The temptation to tell of other places and people has been strong but I have refrained. My hardest task has been to discriminate between things worth relating and those that are not, but I feel as far as my memory permits I have set forth the truth. If no good is done or no pleasure derived from reading the vicissitudes of a youthful sailor, cast the book away and say, at its best it is only what most sailors would call a poor, hard traveling purchase, a rope yarn over a nail. End of Chapter 16 Recording by Peter Kelleher Eastport Midway, Nova Scotia End of Dog Watches at Sea by Stanton H. King


Training securities and other financial instruments can involve high risk and a loss of amounts invested. Melissa Armo doing business as a stockswish does not provide investment advice and her classes are purely for educational purposes. Melissa Armo doing business as a stockswish does not assume responsibility or liability for your trading results and your investment results. Melissa Armo doing business as a stockswish may or may not have holdings or positions and securities mentioned in her classes for the materials. Is everybody ready? Everyone ready to go? Apple isn't even gonna wait. It's not even gonna wait. So here's the story. Give yourself two trades on this because I think aggressive is the way to go. But if the first set up fails we're gonna look at retaking it. It absolutely is going to work today as a short and a sell. The stock is going to drop today. And bottom line is that you gotta give yourself two trades because I don't know where this pushes back. It may not. So if we don't catch the first one we may miss it. So we gotta be aggressive on this. But that I'm telling you gotta give yourself two trades. Okay. Gyro, are you looking at any longs today? What are you looking at? You didn't type anything. Market will look at later. Apple will talk about later. Okay, here we go. Oh my gosh, it's at 156 already. 156.78. Man, this could swish. It's gonna swish. I knew it. I knew it. I knew it as soon as I saw it. All right, here we go people. Oh my god, it's swishing. Apple's swishing, just let it go. It's gonna drop and all the targets I gave are gonna be way bigger than what I said. So no one should be in this yet. It didn't trigger, didn't set up. It's gonna work, I told ya. All right. Spreading this is just moving so wild too. Let's just wait. 55.82. Okay, babe, we'll get a good set up. Because I was thinking it was gonna take two tries. And no one should be in this yet. That would be great. We could just get one perfect angel. All right, I had said 158. That's way far away. Let's just see if this holds 157. Not that it has to. Okay, this isn't gonna be small. 37 by 10, it is not gonna be small. And you gotta wait for that to set up. But I'm just trying to give you some numbers here. So 37 by 10, Apple. 37 by 10, Apple. And don't jump the gun in this, people. Because it could give a better entry. In fact, it's gonna, that's off. Wait. It is gonna give a better entry. The best entry is good. So there's no reason to go crazy. All right, 20 is gonna be the stop. Don't have the entry. 75 by 20 would be a dream. 75 by 20, Apple, if it hits. And no one should jump the gun in this at all today. 75 by 20 is on though. Okay, 75 by 20, Apple. I'm just gonna keep on it. If you want it, Apple, if you want to get the stop in. Get the stop in. Let's put it at 25. 157.25, Apple. Here it goes. Here it goes. Here it goes. This is it. Put the stop at 157.25 if you want it. And this is only gonna be one thing here. So before I was like maybe two trades, no, this has to hold right in here. And for some reason if this does, it won't flip to something else, but I think this is it. Let's find out. Man, it's trading a little while. And you can still do it if you want. All right, let me go back. 25 is good because it could really fly over that. And that should hold. You could piecemeal into it here. You could even do half here. And you could add under 70 at 69, which is gonna hit any second here too. But if you want to do the Apple stops 25, here's right back at the number again. First target low of the day. Which was 156, I believe. Here it goes. This is gonna fall. No, I ended up breaking that. 155.82, first target in Apple. All the targets then that I gave you were okay. 155, I said 155.40 under the low. Here, Apple, Apple, Apple. Yep. All right. Let's watch 82. I got a quick look at the market. Yep, market's gonna fall today too. And we'll look at this later. Spy is trying desperately, desperately, desperately to hold. And I don't think it's gonna because the cues are gonna drop because Apple. And I don't think the cues are gonna hold there in Apple. Apple, what is everybody doing? Right in the room. Did everybody get it? Here, under 156. It should drop. Let's just kaboom and then down to 155. Here, look at this. We got lucky because I'm telling you, this could have taken two hits. And I was prepared for that. I was prepared to take two trades in this. I was prepared to take it and take a stop and then get out. We got lucky. Here, Apple. And you can piece me out of this if it bounces anywhere if you want. Good entry. You're never gonna get a better entry than this than this stock for a day trade. Here, here, here, under 156.38. I wonder if we should take a little out, but it's so good. Let's just watch it. I wanted to keep dropping though. 354. This could still be a little wild ride. You could take a little out here if you wanted. It still could be a little wild ride. In fact, I might do that, but let's just watch it a little. 34 was that tail. Come on. Come on, come on. Here, I'm out of half of it. I'm out of half of it. Take half of it out if you want. We're gonna keep the stock at the same place, though, for the rest. Keep the stock at the same place for the rest. And you know what? We can add maybe. We can add maybe. I don't want it bouncing up in the 70s again. I'm just playing this tight today because I want to get something for the big, big move.  All right, so now let's just hold it for the rest for the big move. If you took some of it out of it, great. Hold the rest for the big drop, $2 more. I mean, I'll look at the targets here. Here we go. Under 36, Apple. Man, this is a nice trade. Here, here, here. Here. All right, let's see where it goes. Let me look at the market quickly. Man, and I said, gosh, one of these days we'll get a perfect short. One of the days when we wake up, it'll be a perfect short. One day in our lives. Here. All right, here we go. All right, 155. 154. If it breaks 155, it's gone. It's a goner. 153.  Here it goes. Here. Apple, Apple, Apple, Apple. Did everybody get it? Dara did it too. If you didn't take any out yet, you could take some out right now because I'm not saying it's going to go straight down right because it's going to break the low.  That was such a good stop. Oh, you do. Here. Qualibare's out of a little bit. If you get out of something here, it makes you feel better about holding it more because the drop could be big. So that helps you be patient. It actually helps you be really patient. Did anyone get out of the whole thing? You got out of the whole thing you're saying? That's fine. That's okay. That's all right. Barry, did you do it? And if you did, did you get out of it? Are you in it or what? But I spent a long time since I've seen a gap that I've been this much in love with that wasn't an earnings gap. Funny because I thought, oh, you know what, let's look at eBay. Completely forgot about eBay. eBay's dropping too. eBay's dropping too. eBay's probably going to work here as well. This is steady enough. We want to do two things, but why? I mean, you could have done this and got right out right in the tail. It was a nice move. Almost a buck. Here, Apple. I'm just saying here, da, da, da. We didn't brick 156 yet, but we aren't going to. Oh, IBM, whatever happened to that? Whatever happened to that today? That ended up going over 160 yesterday, and you could have done it a second time later in the day in the afternoon. Really had a big move. Let's see how this is holding up. Man, this is holding up. So there's that one. Wow, look at that sucker. And here's the market and here we go. Here we go. People, people, people loving people, people loving Apple. It's out of me in 150 bucks. That's a huge day for you, Barry. Congratulations, money and Apple yesterday and today, Barry. Look at that. Let's look at the five minute. 03, 02. Holy crap, I don't know where this goes today. I really don't. The market's red. This is down. This has hit through every number in the world. I mean, I don't even know where this could go if it breaks. It's crazy. This is a nice trade here, though. Gosh, it's hard. What do we do with our lives? Okay, didn't break the low yet. 82, 97, Maverick's half out. Is anybody in the whole thing? Anybody, anybody at all? Is anyone in the whole thing yet? That would be crazy. But if you are, it's working. Is anyone in the whole thing? Here, honey's still in the whole thing. Rumi is. Rumi's swinging for the fences today. Shower singers in the whole thing have been too. Wow, a lot of believers. Here it goes. Apple under 156. Just let it drop. We're so close to the low. Here it goes. What a nice trade. And I'm giving myself a round of applause for going with this today. And none of the earnings gaps here. Apple. Here we go. Drop, drop, drop, drop, drop. Look at the market. Time of the day is 9.43. Crap. I didn't even look and see if we have any reports. Does anybody know? Do we have any of the 9.45? Market's just not going to let up here. Market's going to drop today. People want to short this market. I don't know why, but it is going to drop today. Apple's going to go down. Apple's going down. 10 o'clock is a report. All right. Here we go. Then we got plenty of time, but we will have to watch 10. 10, 10, 10. Today's the anniversary of Black Monday. 82. 82. 82. Is UAL working? Did you do that instead of Apple? Yeah, pretty much it looks like everything worked. UAL, yes. And you could have done Apple. You could have done them all. God, did you just do UAL? You could have done all of the watches today, actually, because the market's red, to be honest with you. So here's Apple. Let's watch it, because it didn't break the yellow yet. Let's watch it. Let's not be piggies, but it does look good. Again, are we ready? Said you could take half. Some of you got out of the whole thing. 82. 82. 72. 75. 10. If this does another entry, then I will let everybody know for the people that got out of it, or did anybody not do it? For the people that got out of it completely, I'll give you another entry if it sets up again. For the people that got out of half, that's the price down. 946 is still very early. Let's look at the market. We're just... The spy is really trying to hold on. Let's look at the banks. 947. 947 in the world. Yeah. These things are red, too. Okie doke, if you want to do Apple again, 20 by 70, not small, 20 by 70. If it hits here, if not, then I'll let you know something different. But it's been moving really fast, so pretty much. In fact, right here. 25 by 70, if you wanted Apple for a second trade, if you want to do a second trade or add more, but it's way too far from the original entry in my opinion for that. But if you want to do a new trade, you could stop 70. It's gonna break 20. And this has to break the low or it's just gonna be over. Here, who likes all this stuff about news and this and that and everything else in the world, put it, plop some things in the room if you're done trading. Gator, I know you love that stuff, cheap, too. Give me all the information you have about Apple. Email it to me, plop it in the room. Here, Apple. Da, da, da! I only briefly looked at why the gap happened today. So that's what I'm saying. Here, tail, which for some reason held 82. But I don't really see anything that well, no, I do see it. But I don't think that's a big deal. I do see it, but I don't think it's a big deal. Because of the gap. Because of the shock value. There you go. There's that word. Here, Apple. It's a shocker. It's a shock to me. 87, 89, every penny. 97. It's not going to look like this today. The stock is not going to only have a dollar and an 18 cents extension today. And I don't think it flips. So this stock is going to continue to drop. It's just not big enough of a bar. It's way too early. The market's falling. Aqualibur did two apples. Got all out and got back in again. Okay, very good. Gator, I'll look at that later. Here, here. No, it didn't break it. Tell us something about the watch. That what you're writing there, Gator. I don't think that's what created this about the iPhone 8 sales. It was the watch. I still say about the watch. Here, Apple. Okay, this really has to keep going now though. This is going to be the morning trade because it's not a 51. Here it goes, Apple. Here it goes. Come on. Drop, drop, drop, drop, drop. Here it goes, Apple. Yes. Watch 15540, I said. No backup here. Come on. Gosh darn it. 73. Okay, really got to watch this now, people. Because this is, we're getting into the morning time frame. But I think it still keeps going. So it's up to you. Here, under 70. Da, da, da, da. Be out. It's the morning move. It's too close to 10 o'clock. It's really good. Hold it all day if you want. Done. I think that's the morning trade. It's just was too bouncy. And I don't know. You know, I don't know if the market bounces back or pushback, but I still think it's lower. Beautiful. Great job, everyone. Wonderful, wonderful, wonderful, wonderful. That was a buck. Whatever you got. Half the third did the second trade. Whatever. Good. Solid. Move an Apple. Congratulations, everyone. All right. Let's go over it. If you're in it, you really think this is going hog wild to 154 or something. You know, something crazy, which you very well could. Very well could, but not in the morning. Mary said great out. Congratulations. Good job, everyone. Now, did anybody knock it out of the Apple option from a couple of days ago?  Gallagher never did it. I don't know what anybody else did. Koala Bear is now out of the second Apple. Okay, see, this is going to bounce. But it doesn't mean it's not still lower to day. Wow. What a weird just back. We're in a group here now, people. I've been to motion here. IBM was really good yesterday. Had the second lift. Now life makes sense again. Let the market follow if it wants to. It's still strong.  And then they'll flip around to get a big another new high because the market is still higher. So don't expect a massive pull in anywhere deep. Even if we run red today, even if we drop all day into the close, it is not going to change the overall trend of either one of these charts or any of these charts. And I believe that part of this is the result of Apple pulling it down. And really, that's pretty much the story.  So I think we can continue to fall, but this was the morning move. So is anybody still in it? Anybody still in anything in Apple at all? Anyone still in the day trade for Apple? Yes or no? Vincent is still in it. Clearly, he thinks that a sunny still in it too? Hold on here.


Before we get started, may I just share a little bit about our podcast. So we, Julia, myself, and our third partner, Kate, Wharton, who unfortunately isn't here today, we host a regular podcast about nature-based solutions and talk to the people and the industry leaders who are shaping its future. You'll learn a bit more about the podcast at SolvingClimateNaturally.com and also listen to our past episodes on Apple podcasts as well as Spotify. We're so excited to be speaking with Valerie Shen today, so let's get started. All right. So we'll do the spiel and standard intro. Welcome to SolvingClimateNaturally, where we speak with experts and leaders of the cutting edge of nature-based solutions to help demystify this growing field. So we're your hosts. I'm Julia Strong. I'm Ida Hemball. And our third co-host, Kate Wharton, is not here today. She couldn't join us, unfortunately, but we're looking forward to the conversation. So we're mixing things up. We're doing this live episode, so everything you see here is live today. We've included the Q&A at the end, looking forward to your questions. We're also going to talk a broader level, zoom out from our typical range of guests to talk more about the buyers, the people who are driving the demand for offsets that are driving impact today. We'll talk about what role offsets play and net zero strategies, as well as the role of nature in particular. So let's kick it off. So Valerie, thank you for being with us. So as some of the audience might know, Valerie and I go way back to undergrad and actually Julia, Valerie and I all met in grad school at Stanford together where we all proceeds of the same environmental and business program. So for our audience, Valerie is a partner and the Chief Operating Officer at G2 Venture Partners, which is a Bay Area-based Climate Tech Fund. She oversees all operational aspects of the firm and most relevantly for this conversation, she also oversees impact reporting and management and offset procurement. Groupsly, Valerie was an analyst at Kleiner Perkins Green Growth Fund and she started her career at McKinsey & Company where she worked on lots of things for management and adjacent to climate, including energy projects in particular. Welcome Valerie to our show. Thank you, excited to be here with both of you. So Val, as before we get into it, please help us orient and understand sort of what G2 Venture Partners does and orient us to where it sits in the sort of climate and financial ecosystem. Of course. So our team at G2 Venture Partners first came together in 2008 managing the Green Growth Fund at Kleiner Perkins. This was a billion dollar fund initially focused just on clean energy and then quickly transitioned to add a number of sectors, transportation, logistics, food and ag, retail, manufacturing, as we realized that the climate question is not just about making energy clean, but rather working at all of the heavy asset sectors of the economy and figuring out how to make them more resource efficient, often by using digital technology. So in 2017, we wanted to keep investing against that thesis and spun out and created G2 as a separate firm, now investing out of our second fund and we're typically investing at the Series B to Series D stage. So companies that already have a product that works, many paying customers who love it, a couple million or even tens of millions of dollars of revenue and where we believe we can help them reach their next inflection point. Awesome. So Valerie, tell us more about you personally, your journey into climate and your interests there. Of course. I was a pretty nerdy high schooler, did a lot of speech and debate competitions and was exposed to a number of policy and politics issues. The ones that were most exciting to me were always around climate and the environment. And so I explored these topics in college pretty early on, met an advisor that was really inspirational, so chose to study environmental science and have always felt that the answers to our climate challenges lie at the intersection of business and politics and science, but you have to develop some sort of expertise first. So I chose the business route, didn't really know what to do, so I went to McKinsey to learn general business skills. And then found my team at Clenor Perkins was with them for the very beginning when we spun out and created G2, went to business school where I met you guys and then have come back for the last three years. Awesome. So our topic for today's podcast is carbon offsets and carbon offset procurement. And we've actually got a couple different angles on this particular topic because I'll let Julia speak about this, but she works at NCX, which is a carbon offset provider. Valerie has perspectives both as investor and as a procure. And I myself work at Galvanize Climate Solutions, which is also an investment platform focused purely on climate solutions as the name implies. And we sort of take a systems approach where in addition to capital, we provide the policy, science and sort of corporate development expertise to accelerate those solutions. Julia, you wanna say a little bit about NCX and what it does? Sure. So I lead business development at NCX that stands for the natural capital exchange. We're a data-driven forest carbon marketplace. So focused on using remote sensing, machine learning, silo imagery to measure every acre of forest across the US and create a platform where any landowner of any size can enroll and be paid to change their forest management behavior to generate high quality carbon offsets that we sell to companies like Microsoft and others. And the role of the silo technology and remote sensing is really to focus on those two challenges in carbon markets that we'll touch on a little bit today, one on scale, how can we democratize access to the millions of small landowners who previously have been excluded from these markets and then two, how can we use remote sensing to improve quality and ensure that we're driving real change on the ground? Awesome. So let's get right into it. We thought we would start with one of the big picture debates of anyone operating in the space. So Valerie, as your team thought about procuring offsets, how did you guys think about do carbon offsets actually enable us to achieve net zero or are they actually a distraction? I like that we're starting with this question. Our team has debated this extensively. Actually on our blog, there's a debate post where I took the side arguing that they're not overall good. But our firm wide view and just my view in general, truly, is that on balance, carbon offsets are more positive than negative in the whole climate puzzle, especially if they're used properly and we can dive more into that. Yeah, so let's say a little bit more about what you mean by used properly. What does good look like? Yeah. Well, there's a lot of different factors to consider. I'll point out four that I think are most relevant, additionality, permanence, leakage and transparency. So first with additionality, we wanna make sure that any carbon offsets that people are paying for are accomplishing something that wouldn't otherwise have already occurred, right? So if you think about forestry, for example, often carbon offsets are paying people to not cut down trees. You wanna make sure that those offsets are paying people who actually would have cut down the trees, otherwise you're not changing any of the situation. A second point is permanence. And what that means is any sort of climate solution, especially if it's a natural climate offset, natural carbon offset, you need to make sure that the change is going to persist at least for 100 years, maybe even longer, depending on the time scale of what you think you're purchasing. And it's not a change that is going to last just a year or two when you thought it was going to be 100 plus years of carbon offset. The third piece is leakage. And that means that what you're doing in one piece of land or one piece of the ocean isn't just going to shift the negative harms to another different piece. So taking forestry for an example, again, if you have a situation where you're paying one farmer to not cut down his trees or not, you know, hurt his land, but what happens instead is that the next patch of forest gets cut down, then you've just shifted the carbon impact and you haven't really made a big difference. And then the fourth piece, which we believe is probably the most important is transparency, which is in order for all of this to work, we have to have a system where any person who's not an expert in the space can go procure a carbon offset, not have to do a ton of research and find things where they can verify the additionality, permanence leakage and a number of other characteristics simply and easily. Yeah, and we'll go get into why that's so hard in today's economy and marketplace today for to find those really high quality carbon credits, but just want to dig in a little bit more into why use offsets and how you're thinking about it. You work with industries that have a lot of emissions. So if we know that to get to net zero, we're gonna have to invest in cutting residual emissions and to invest in action now, how should companies think about balancing their operational emissions and reducing those and then investing in beyond the value chain as mitigation such as offsets? We feel pretty strongly that you shouldn't use carbon offsets to eliminate personal responsibility or corporate responsibility to take real action and changes in your operations that can reduce emissions. But inevitably we won't be able to get to complete net zero just by changing our actions. So offsets are often the best solution for the chunk at the end that you just can't do anything about in your daily operations. And the way we think about balancing this is you basically want to make a good financial decision. So you should do the things in your business where the price per ton of carbon saved is less than the price per ton for buying real carbon offsets that are going to be able to offset those same emissions. But when we think about this math, often we apply a discount to the actual carbon offsets that we're buying. And what I mean by that is, let's say you're paying $10 a ton to buy carbon offsets. You might for whatever reason not believe that these offsets are as permanent or as additional as they may claim. So it could make sense to apply some sort of discount rate and say each ton of offsets that we're buying are really only half a ton. And these are all sort of numbers that we're making up right now because there aren't specific metrics for it. But let's say you believe that then really the embedded price is $20 per ton for that offset that you're purchasing. So $20 is the price you should be using when evaluating your firm operations rather than 10. And if you do that sort of math you might find that it makes more sense than you previously thought to actually clean up your own operations first. So it's sort of an internal carbon price that you're applying to your operations. And other companies do that too. It's a sort of internal carbon tax, right? Like Microsoft, for example, is actually charging, I think $100 per ton for their travel to promote investments in sustainable aviation fuel. But it's super interesting because I think this will be sort of a recurring theme in our conversation is the amount of judgment. Like you talked about, I think one of the big needs in this space is that in addition to transparency, there just needs to be sort of ease of understanding what's going on. And we're only a few minutes in and already, like there's a lot of dark and it's quite complex. And you work at a firm dedicated to these, to understand these solutions and have the bandwidth and yet you still have to sort of incorporate your own judgment into all these different systems and choices. Yeah, it's a great point. And so then when we think about your own journey, like think about procuring offsets, we'd love to talk more about how you went about it given the point that it's really complex. Not many companies have the big teams to evaluate different options. Chief sustainability officer or sustainability team might be thinking about all different kinds of things in their daily day job, not just offsets and the range of solutions that are available to them. So how did you guys think about it? What were the steps that you took and what were the challenges you had along the way? So I think the first part of this is why did we even decide that we wanted to offset our emissions and go net zero? And I think there were two pieces for us. The first was this is just really core to how we operate as a firm. We're investing in climate tech solutions. We want to be a solution to the general climate questions and problems that we have when we think that a lot of people in our ecosystem really care about this. The second piece is that we're hoping that if there's a company we're inspired by in the carbon offset and carbon accounting space, we could invest in them. And we really believe in the customer journey in making our investments. So we thought what better way than to try out being a customer and see what it would be like to make our decision. Then once we decided we wanted to go net zero, the first piece is the accounting. So figuring out just how much carbon are we emitting and what's the magnitude of the offsets that we should be purchasing. We looked at a number of the different players that could help with accounting. And just because of the size of our operations, which are 14 people, one office, really few emissions other than traveling in our office building, we concluded that there was nothing that was at a cheap enough price point and sufficiently easy to use. So we just did it ourselves on Excel, but we decided it was really important to overestimate in all of those moments where there was judgment like Ida mentioned. And so we overestimated whether it was the number of trips we talk or the emissions caused by each trip and ultimately came up with 1,000 tons of carbon that we needed to offset. Then we had to figure out where to buy from. There's a number of different providers such as Patch that are marketplaces aggregating various different sorts of offsets. We decided that we actually wanted to buy directly from the producer for two reasons.  And then more importantly, we had all these questions about additionality and permanence and leakage and we wanted to be able to ask those questions directly. And then we ultimately bought from Blue Source. And the reason that we chose their project was they had a number of different pieces first to choose from our size made sense for them. And then we also wanted to buy a project in the US because that's where most of our emissions are from. And ultimately went with Enhanced Forestry Management Project. It's really interesting because we do see that a lot of our customers and prospective customers are interested in that local impact and investing in communities where they are based. And nature-based solutions are a really beneficial way to do that, right? Because of the range of forests, they're everywhere. And also the ability to invest in co-benefits like local communities who depend on these forests. But as you thought about it, I think one thing that, again, another layer of complexity here is that there are just so many different types of offsets that you can procure. I think we often talk about like engineered removal versus nature-based solutions. And sometimes that's a fuzzy line. That's not always necessarily crystal clear. How did you guys think about nature-based solutions in particular within your portfolio of what you wanted to buy? Our overall philosophy for making the purchase was that we wanted to buy the cheapest credits that we really believed in. We're pretty cost-conscious in a number of decision-making and the idea was we didn't believe that the volume of our offsets was necessarily enough to truly be catalytic and start a new project or push forward the technology in any way. We just wanted to buy something where we felt credibly we were offsetting our emissions and not wasting a ton of money. And it turns out that forestry is generally the cheapest credible offsets that we could find. Another peer firm of ours took actually a pretty different approach where they decided to go with a portfolio of solutions and when they did their math for how many offsets they needed to buy, they're a similar sized firm and they came up with an answer that was about 10% the total tonnage that we came up with. And I think going back to the judgment, everything they did was equally valid. It was just a number of different assumptions but then they ended up buying offsets that cost about 10 times as much per ton as ours. So we came up with the same answer in terms of the amount of dollars that we sort of committed into this space but different approaches and there's so many different ways that people have done it. Yeah, it's so incredibly complicated. I think you touched on something here and earlier about sort of like the differing motivations that buyers have and sometimes like we talk about sort of compensators versus catalysts, I think both you and sounds like this peer firm both are compensators to an extent, right, you're like one for one trying to abate your emissions footprint though I would say you're kind of a conservative compensator or generous compensator in the sense that you're trying to ensure that you truly offset your operational footprints, your main very conservative assumptions around that. We sometimes talk about some buyers being more catalysts so they are willing to just invest in things to sort of seed those new solution areas and without necessarily being entirely confident that that will offset their underlying operational footprint. Yeah, I think about like stripe is a good example of this, right? Where they say we need carbon removal, we need to scale this up. I think I saw the recent studies show that we're gonna need 10 billion tons approximately of carbon removal by 2050 in order to stay on the 1.5 degree C trajectory. And on another podcast, someone from Carbon Direct said that we have about capacity of 100,000 engineered removals today. That is an enormous amount of scale that's going to be needed between now and 2050. And so we need people to start investing in these solutions now and the alternative with nature-based solutions is that they're readily available, scalable today, that they're more cost effective. And so how do you think about investing in solutions now, driving impact now versus the balancing what we need to seed the market for the future? And so a lot of companies are thinking about either going all in on one versus the other or creating a portfolio approach. Yeah, and I don't think there's a right answer to that. I think with what Stripe is building because they have so many tons that are now on their platform, they're really able to move the needle and be catalytic in that way with our thousand tons, we weren't really under the illusion that we were going to create a new engineered solution. We wanted to buy something where we felt we could offset our emissions in the year that they were actually produced and with that nature-based is the best solution right now. Right, like you're confident that that nature-based solution actually happened, occurred, some of these engineered removals, they're still vets, right? Is it actually gonna pan out that they end up leading to that impact? Exactly. Yeah, absolutely. So Val, you talked a little bit about how you thought about quality and selection in your process. Can you just say a little bit more about some of the tools you specifically used and sort of like what role they played in that process? Yep, so one of the tools that we hope will eventually be developed in a stronger way is ratings agencies for carbon credits. There's a few that are being worked on, Silvera, Calyx Global, B-Zero. We've talked to all of them and we're very supportive of what they're doing. They're all still in the startup stage, but we're hopeful that they will continue to grow and get to a point where anyone can log on to the platform and see exactly what the agencies are rating each of the carbon offset projects they're considering. We also look at the various registries and try to understand is this project approved by each registry? But one of the issues there is in some ways it's a pretty low bar. There's a huge variety of quality that each registry approves. And in addition, the registries have pretty strict standards in terms of the process that you need to meet, whether or not that actually leads to good quality. And sometimes that means new or more innovative solutions aren't approved by the registry just yet or take longer to be approved. And so there was no one source of information that we thought was the best source of information. So there was a lot of just verifying across different agencies. Yeah, that's another challenge that we see in the market today is that in order to drive innovation at the scale necessary, we're going to need to be able to have rapid iteration, and rapid review of different potential solutions and make sure that there's more proof of results versus proof of process in doing that. So how do we create these quantitative benchmarks to ensure that there's a standard of quality that people can assess and be able to drive that rapid iteration that's needed? Yeah, completely. I mean, one of the recent challenges I think has been in the news quite a bit has been, for instance, from the challenges around like buffer pool erosion. Juliana, I know that you've sort of done some work in particular. Do you want to sort of elaborate on that? Sure, so buffer pools are essentially an insurance mechanism for nature-based solutions. So the challenge of nature is that it is inherently impermanent, right? Nature is dynamic, but we know it's necessary to solving the climate crisis. There's science that says that nature-based solutions can help meet over a third of the necessary mitigation that's needed on an annual basis. We also know that, and I saw a recent Science-Based Targets initiative blog post, sorry for more jargon, we can answer questions in the Q&A if people aren't sure about that. But Science-Based Targets initiative, which is the initiative that corporations use to keep, have goal-setting to meet them, melt them, reach net zero, that said there's no way that we're gonna get to 1.5 degrees C without investing in stopping deforestation and investing in nature-based solutions. So, but the challenge again is that it's inherently impermanent. These 100-year time frames that we were talking about are really long. We don't know what a force is gonna be doing 10 years from now, 20 years from now, 100 years from now. And the buffer pools, these insurance mechanisms that set aside credits to account for if a fire burns down a forest. They're under-capitalized. I think Valerie, you saw that stat, right? There was a study that was done recently about California specifically because of all of the wildfires that happened last year. And one of the estimates is that in less than a decade, we've already used up 95% of the buffer pool that was accounted for wildfire loss to forest that was supposed to last for 100 years. So if we're going to use up that whole buffer in less than a decade, what it basically means is that each ton of carbon offset that you purchased with that registry or that sort of standard is ultimately going to be worth a little bit less or some amount less, that's to be determined. Yeah, it's essentially that people are buying these forward-facing contracts, right? That they're hoping that that, in fact, will be delivered on an ongoing basis. Some of the innovations that people are driving in the market and including NCX, I'm biased, of course, is how do we use shorter-term contracts to measure and pay for that impact on an ongoing basis and fully account for that and deliver that as opposed to set up these longer-term liabilities that traditional projects have had. And in some ways, that's the argument for the more engineered solutions where you're literally taking carbon out of the atmosphere and bearing it or sequestering it or somehow removing it in a way that feels more permanent than hoping that people are going to fulfill their requirements and not cut down trees or not make sure, make sure it doesn't get burned down. Yeah, so the challenge, right, is the nature-based solutions, we know that they're necessary, so how can we account for that impact in a way that is fully delivered? Yes, yeah. No, it's incredibly challenging. I think that kind of goes back to the global question, right, which is how do we, in general, accelerate global investment and procurement of these solutions? One thing that we didn't touch on earlier, but you alluded to, is the Science-Based Targets Initiative, like one issue with offsets is actually if you look at some of the leading, thinking from groups like the Science-Based Target Initiative or if you're an asset manager, your asset managers initiative, is that they don't actually allow you, in the case of Science-Based Targets, they've issued guidance on what you're allowed to count towards actually achieving your target. And in point of fact, you're only allowed to really count emissions reductions through operational activities, and offsets are encouraged as a way of increasing our likelihood of staying on a two-degree, 1.5-degree pathway, but in point of fact, you're not allowed to count it in that way. And so that's one of these challenges of as we think about stimulating procurement and investment in the space, how do you get these coalitions to drive their guidance for that? But maybe Valerie, over to you, what do you think is most necessary? I think that what's necessary is some sort of push, whether it's regulatory or maybe more of a push from consumers and employees to require that all customers or to require that all companies actually are offsetting their emissions or working towards net zero. My strong belief is that altruism only goes so far. So right now we have a small number of companies that are working on goals because for whatever reason, they've decided that it's important. But once we get to the point where all companies are working on this, whether it's because of regulation or just because of the market pressures, then we're going to have so many more customers that you can truly have a robust marketplace, more reason to create those proper rating agencies and then also more validation for each of the processes. Yeah, it'll be interesting to see with the new SEC rules, right? That companies are being required to disclose for climate that whether or not how offsetting will be included in that and how companies will feel, you know, accountable to those net zero goals and how they use offsetting as part of that. Yeah, and I think, and that's the other thing, we live just in an incredibly dynamic regulatory environment. You have the SEC guidance coming out here in Europe, you have the ISSP guidance that's emerging. So sort of the actual regulatory context for this is like very much a live conversation. One thing I will add though, you had mentioned all of these various different targets and I think a lot of them are geared towards what do we need to do in order to maintain warming at 1.5 degrees Celsius max or two degrees Celsius max or what do we need to do to get to complete net zero goals? I would argue that it's important to set those goals and understand what it takes, but any actions that people may be willing to take that would get part way there should still in some ways be applauded and we shouldn't frame it as you have to go all the way to net zero or all of your efforts are useless, right? Or we shouldn't frame it as, well, you must do all of these operational things otherwise they don't even bother buying carbon offsets. We won't count you as meeting the goals. I think everyone is on their own journey and especially in the next few years as we're trying to figure it out, we should be willing to applaud a lot of different actions. Yeah, well, it's interesting. I've definitely heard of companies who are setting their net zero goals and then not knowing how they're gonna get there, right? And so there's a balance of we want people to be setting these aspirational big goals, but should we be applauding that and or should we say, hold people so accountable to it that no one makes a goal, they're not wanting to be vocal about sustainability and sort of they get into this, I heard this term the other day, green hushing where they're sort of made this goal or they're not wanna make a goal, they don't wanna make it very clear they're doing all that sustainability work or that they're thinking about doing sustainability work because they're afraid of being called out. And that's why I think as we think about the offset space and carbon market space, it's so dynamic, it's changing so fast. How do we create systems that enable evolution and rapid iteration and development? And do it transparently, right? And have a sort of more of a learning and public mentality around, instead of locking ourselves into a hundred year contracts or longer things, right? We're able to, as science and technology gets better, adapt and invest in the measurements to understand that we're making improvements as we go. That's a great point. Now we need to applaud kind of year over year change in a way and not think that someone who is a laggard or someone who is a leader today is forever, forever in that state. So we typically love to finish our podcasts with a bit of a lightning round to get into sort of our guests' minds. So Valerie, we would love to ask you some questions and keep your answers very brief. What is your favorite carbon thing? I think I might be your first guest who doesn't have a horse in this race, but I'm gonna go with forests, just the broadest potential for cheap offsets. That will make Julia happy. And what is your favorite book? Ministry for the Future, I think it's my favorite book relevant to this audience. Yep, definitely a winner among the climate community. And if you had a magic wand, what would you do to change or scale nature-based solutions? Okay, so if I had the magic wand, I would make it so that all people who are currently selling carbon offsets that they know are not real or not credible in whatever way would self-remove them from the market so then we know that all the offsets that are in the marketplace are at least reasonably credible by the perception of the people who are creating them. I think what I love about the answer is we've asked this question of all of our guests and they never, I think you're the first person who actually understands what a magic wand is. And so as we look ahead, what gives you hope? I'm really hopeful about the Inflation Reduction Act and the fact that we're finally at a point where we are as a society willing to pass policy that is going to promote the adoption of more climate tech. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I agree with that. And then with respect to nature-based solutions specifically, what is your prediction of the biggest NCS or NBS headline in 2023? My prediction is that in the next year or two, there will be some sort of big scandal where some sort of carbon offset turns out to be completely fake or people wasted a lot of money. And I think what that's going to do though is really clean up the sector and push for more standards and regulation or just more validation. I don't think it's going to destroy the sector because we just all know that it's so important and a big piece of the puzzle. Yeah, awesome. Well, that was the wrap for our standard part of the show. We're gonna turn it over to you now as a live session for Q&A. So I have my handy dandy iPad here. Please submit your questions and I'll go through it. Okay, so here we go. We have three questions for now. So I'm a lender and a prospective borrower. I'm diligence saying, oh, sorry, I got an alert. Okay, we're not gonna go to that session yet. Prospective borrower, I'm diligence saying includes substantial project, projected revenue from carbon. How do I assess the, like what are some things I should think about in assessing that potential investment? It's a good question. The way I would think about it is take the lens of a person who would be potentially buying those carbon offsets. So thinking about the additionality of the permanence, the leakage, the price that they're selling that carbon offset at compared to others and just map out for the next year or five years, whatever timeframe is your project, do you believe that you would buy and then talk to other buyers and get a sense of would they be buying those offsets? So then you can know, do you believe that this income stream that they're projecting from the carbon offsets will be real and will they continue to persist? All right, another lender question. We have some good financiers, investors and lenders in the audience. How seriously should I consider projected revenue from carbon credit revenue? Okay, this is similar to the other one before. Where do you see the carbon market evolving over the next 15 to 20 years? I wish we could predict it over the next one to two. Do you have thoughts from NCX? Yeah, sure. I mean, we know that the carbon market is going to be needed as a part of the solution, right? And it's really nascent right now. I've heard people call it the wild, wild West. And so there are efforts like ICBCM, the integrity council for voluntary carbon markets that are coming up with standards that would actually sit above the other, the main registries that people think of, the Vera, CAR, ACR, gold standard and additionally a new and evolving certifications and registries to help provide guidance. But these processes take time. There's also guidance from GHG protocol, which companies are thinking about how to think about investments in land use sector and how does that relate to offsets? So I think watch this space. We know that there is going to be a necessary investment in carbon markets over the next 15 to 20 years. I'd say that we'll see voluntary, increase in voluntary interest and then eventually regulatory, hopefully, at point where people are increased in carbon markets and the regulatory side, but maybe not one broad overarching global market, right? We might see more of the sort of smaller regulatory, not small relative to bigger than the voluntary carbon market but like California cap and trade program, emissions, European ETS program as opposed to the sort of global scale that we need. And the only thing I'd add to that is I can't imagine a world where in the next several decades this market goes away. Inevitably it's going to grow and as it grows, some of the growing pains will start to get sorted out and right now you kind of have to know a lot about the space in order to properly participate. Hopefully it will move more towards the normal stock market where if you're just a person who's interested, you can log into a platform, read some data and make a purchase. Yeah, I mean there are a lot of people who are betting on that, right? I think I saw news around the London Stock Exchange now has a funding for, you can publicly list, I think, carbon offset companies to get financing for that. So they're betting that this will be big and that there will be standards to help guide that. For sure. All right, here's another one. How does the Web3 world bring alternative forms of credible offsets? Maybe, Ida, you've looked into this a little bit. I think, this is where we need our co-host, Kate, actually.  Okay, well because the tech has the ability to measure, report and verify with increasing credibility. I mean, I think with Web3, my thought is it's more of a, you know, making sure that the ledger is transparent and there's avoiding double counting and very clear. I would love to hear what you think about on the supply side. Yeah, I think, you know, I'll just revamp on that a little bit without being a Web3 expert by any means. I think some of the most interesting pieces of Web3 are kind of like Toucan, for instance, like they're playing around increasing like efficiencies and transparencies within these sort of markets that like already exist where things can kind of be like easily digitized. But what I haven't seen so far is how Web3 like solves like the upstream issues of quality supply or monitoring. Like I kind of feel like Web3's limitations, I'm happy to be corrected here, are how do you actually fix like the physical problems in the world, but certainly I think has interesting applications in helping us like measure and manage some of these attributes once they're kind of like already characterized. Right, and driving financing towards those projects as well. I think the way it was articulated to me, also not a Web3 expert is that there's been a lot of conversations talking about how do we track the carbon offset to make sure each offset is only counted once. But then there's a separate question of is that offset real? Like can you somehow digitize it so that what you're moving around and tracking so carefully is a proper offset? Because if you're tracking all of these things nicely, but the offsets are fake to begin with, then kind of what's the point? Right, it speaks to this need for increased transparency and sort of the quantitative benchmarking. And so if Web3 can help with like quantitative benchmarking and making that very clear and sort of the traceability of starting from projects like beginning data inputs to data outputs and being able to really review that all the way down the chain, then I think it could be helpful. But again, hope we need a Web3 person up next time. There are probably some in the audience who asked that question to can speak to that. So this is one that we sort of touched on a little bit, maybe we can dig in a little bit more deeply. Can you speak to carbon offsets delaying real change towards carbon neutral business models? So again, like why should you use carbon offsets and when should you use them? Is it delaying change? If purchasing offsets is cheaper than implementing a change to a new business model. Yeah, well, so let me give the arguments that I wrote in our blog post when I was arguing that carbon offsets are not good, right? So there's a few reasons you might believe and in part I think these reasons are true why this would be a bad mode of moving forward. So the first would be it's possible that the money that people are spending to buy carbon offsets would be better spent on their operational efficiencies. Even if each dollar spent on operational efficiencies gets you less tons of offsets, you might believe that that's like a more real credible change to the business and you should be spending money to like green your building or change your internal operations and it'll improve for so many years in the future that that's just a better long-term solution. Another argument would be that by spending money on these offsets and feeling like you're doing good people are going to emit to degrees that they otherwise wouldn't. So an example of that is a lot of flights now allow you to offset your emissions for a surprisingly low number of dollars, right? It's like a couple of dollars or maybe tons of dollars for your cross-country flight, which I'm not quite sure how that math works or what those offsets are, but it feels like it's too little based on the prices that we've seen for offsets. It's possible that people will believe that their action is now carbon neutral and be more likely to fly or more likely to take an emitting action because they feel guilt-free and if that persists too much and you're buying offsets that aren't real then you're just gonna be exacerbating the problem. So it speaks to the need of increased scrutiny, right? On how companies are actually using these offsets. Like I do think that we're in a critical decade for the climate, we need to make an impact today and we're not gonna stop flying. We're not gonna stop using these sort of shipping emissions to get e-commerce and we should, but we're not gonna be able to change consumer behavior at scale, at the speed that we need. And also we can't snap our fingers and stop living a heavily carbonized life. There would be really big challenges to that. So how can we balance the need to reduce which totally we need to do first and foremost but at the same time addressing unavoidable emissions with investments that can help mitigate those emissions today and drive impact today to address, again, like deforestation in countries where, if we don't do that, we won't be able to meet our net zero 1.5 degrees C and carbon finance is one of the means to do that, to ensure that we stop deforesting. So I totally see the concern but we need to have an all of the above solutions and I think the solution would be having more scrutiny again for how are these offsets actually being used? Are they being used against unavoidable emissions and what else is the company doing to reduce emissions and alongside that? Yeah, yeah.