Thank you all for coming. I would apologize for the Canberra winter, but it seems that we've all of a sudden found the Canberra spring today But thank you for coming many of the familiar faces Familiar in the sense that we just had another speaker on similar topics a few weeks back And so we're very proud at the ANU College of Asian Pacific to be hosting these talks on Sherry Lanka An important part of our region in our world My name is Kent Anderson, and I'm the deputy director of the College of Asia and Pacific And it's my pleasure tonight to be able to welcome and introduce Gordon Weiss Gordon will be known to many of you and indeed the subject of the talk is about his new book The Cage the fight for Sherry Lanka and the last days of the Tamil Tigers But Gordon comes with a fascinating background and one that really prepared him to write this book He originally was a freelance journalist working a bit all over the world but the bulk of his career was working in international public sector and working in Crisis in conflict areas. So working in Prague with Radio Free Europe working in Bosnia on security and the UN with UN working in Kosovo with UN 2003 to 2006 being the chief emergency communications officer for the UN UNICEF out of New York That's the kind of experience and background that Gordon brought To writing this book, but the book really is informed by the period 2007 to 2009 When Gordon was in Sherry Lanka as the political communications advisor and spokesman for the United Nations So it comes deeply informed of what is happening on the ground This isn't a text of some academic sitting in some ivory tower, but someone who's there Gordon is now back with us in Australia based at University of Sydney Department of Political Science But I think he's got a little bit of work running around the country getting more people to buy and read his book And so we are wonderfully blessed to be on that stop on that train stop And we thank him for coming and we look forward to welcoming him back in the future with that Let me turn over to Gordon Weiss to speak about the book The Cage Gordon It's great to be here. Thank you so much for coming Thank you Professor Anderson for the introduction and thank you to being at a costa for your efforts to organize this evening I often speak off off the cuff, but considering the the venue I actually took the trouble to write something down tonight, so bear with me while I stumbled through it I come to you as a somewhat reluctant commentator on Sri Lankan affairs I was a career UN official For a dozen years three of which I served in Sri Lanka Having spent three years there the last thing I expected to do was to spend a year writing about it all But I did and and I'm speaking about it tonight with you I did write about it because I believed that I I could produce a reasonably objective view of the conflict Which provided an alternative narrative to that established by the government of Sri Lanka That account Supported with all the resources that lie with any government Made no mention of the lethal impact on civilians or at least the government's role in the lethal impact on civilians And if you doubt the readiness of the government of Sri Lanka to spend huge resources to support a neat But patchy account of what happened during the final phase of the war. I suggest that you watch YouTube I'm told that they've just released a new documentary in which I am partly featured I've not seen it, but I suspect that it will include a fair measure of Blow bluster and bullying without any meaningful effort to come to terms with the questions that I will Suggest a still left unanswered. I Note also that the 161 page report just released by the government Which is reported to acknowledge for the first time that there were civilian deaths Still leaves much more left unsaid than it actually answers I would say that it's predictable effort to delay meaningful Accountability over the final phase of the war in Sri Lanka My book my little book is by no means the end of the story as the Australian spectator noted It doesn't provide prescriptions, but it does ask a lot of questions The end of the story will be one hopes reconciliation between the antagonistic communities of Sri Lanka followed by peace and prosperity for all of Sri Lankan's people and And I don't say that lightly or tritely But I want to address some of the questions left hanging over the kind of peace now unfolding in Sri Lanka and to look at some of those Big issues hovering so uneasily in the air peace justice and Reconciliation big ideas and To look at those ideas in the context of allegations of crimes committed by both sides and the course of this final phase of the war Now crimes were allegedly committed by both sides Throughout this entire war today. However, I will confine my remarks To just the final phase of the war. I won't address a range of issues I do examine in my book and forgive me if I refer to my book a number of times But the fact is that I know what I know because I've written this book For example such things I dress in the book as the long history of overwhelming violence Used by the state when dealing with critical challenges to the authority of the state And I'm referring of course to those of you who are somewhat familiar with Sri Lanka's history To the two uprisings by the Sinhalese JVP in 1971 and the light and the late 1980s I actually go into that in quite some detail in my book in my book I argue that there is something of a continuum Which made the extreme solution that I argue we saw unfold in 2009 Perhaps predictable in some sense I'll also suggest that proper consideration of the final phase of the war Cannot be entrusted should not be entrusted to the government of Sri Lanka for reasons I'll outline But more properly belongs in the realm of an international judicial investigation Further although what's good for Sri Lanka and her people must certainly feature and up his paramount I will suggest that this is not the only factor of importance in this debate I want to give you I see that we have fortunately a relatively mixed audience tonight So I want to give you a brief potted history of Or at least my version of history of Sri Lanka that revolves around two critical dates 1956 and 1983 and for any Sri Lankan in the room that will immediately ring alarm bells Before we move on to the third critical date, which is 2009 Nobody seriously questions the basic facts or impact of these two moments in Sri Lanka's post-independence history The first years after independence from Britain in 1948 were relatively peaceful Even though even then there were the makings of the future troubles that would emerge in post-independence Sri Lanka Britain had conferred on the island a liberal parliamentary democracy Which as we know is the best of all possible systems, of course in keeping however with many countries in the decolonization period there were darker forces at play and I want you to Remember or remind you if I can of the generally tumultuous times in 1948 Throughout the world the terrible bloodshed in which so many countries were born India had just experienced its traumatic petition 1947 with perhaps a million dead Israel was founded even as five Arab armies attempted to conquer the Foundling State and in 1948 an Unrecognizable Europe had only just completed one of the biggest Population transfers or ethnic cleansings as it would come to be known in history I'm referring to the roughly three million ethnic Germans Expelled from European countries in which they had lived for hundreds of years who were forcibly sent to live in a foreign land Germany By contrast in 1948 Sri Lanka or Salon as it was then known Gained independence in relative tranquility and with great promise But that promise masked another reality The liberal democracy conferred somewhat carelessly by Britain upon Salon had an effect That had been foreseen some ten years earlier by British analysts and in fact it was the subject of the chattering classes I'm talking about the Donnellmore Commission that in fact made recommendations about the way in which Sri Lankan independence should be bought about one of the Specific things they said was they they had their doubts about whether a liberal parliamentary democracy would work in Sri Lanka The Buddhist Sinhalese who accounted for two-thirds of the population of some 12 million after 1948 held effective power The Tamils by contrast who had played an Important role under the British were suddenly left relatively powerless consigned To second-tier importance and at least it was a second-tier importance that they felt it was the source of a part of this grievance But of course that's what democracy entails of course electoral rule by a majority However, there was an initial Irresolvable tension despite the presence of functioning political parties that reflected some of the great ideologies of the first half of the 20th century Nevertheless despite these tensions The benign prime ministerships of DS Sennanaka and his son Dudley kept the body politic humming along it was a sort of gentlemen's political club and politics worked by mutual agreement in 1956 however the mask of civility fell away or rather it was torn off the year before in 1955 SWRD Bundranaka the great Sinhalese counterweight to the dominating Sennanaka family made a single rash electoral promise he said That if elected power he would introduce an act That would in effect give preeminence to the Sinhalese language over both Tamil and English As SWRD's daughter Chandrika kumaratunga a for a former prime in a former president of Sri Lanka remarked just two weeks ago Her father made a dreadful mistake Lee Kwan Yew the great statesman of Singapore has made much the same remark in relation to Sri Lanka that this was a terrible error it introduced a An irreversible element into Sri Lankan politics When Bundranaka was surely elected prime minister the Sinhala only act as it came to be known had a devastating effect as Former president kumaratunga says this law caused ethnic riots and contributed to the war that has just concluded By excluding minorities Between 1956 and 1983 there are many other dates to note But let's just say that the trajectory of state-imposed discrimination continued to disadvantage minorities Nobody today seriously questions The divisive impact of 1956 and a vast majority of Sri Lankans from all communities would I dare say Do things very differently today After 1956 tens of thousands of Tamils emigrated from Sri Lanka But not just Tamils The mixed blood burgers deserted the island in droves and large numbers of educated Sinhalese as well and many of them came here to Australia Leaving after all is one response to policies of discrimination And many people from all communities Didn't like the trajectory that their own country was taking But another response in the face of indifference or simply because one cannot leave because one is poor is armed struggle Which brings me to the next date 1983 a fulcrum moment in that year riots broke out across the island the trigger Was the killing of 13 soldiers by a rag tag outfit known as the LTTE or we know them as the Tamil Tigers There have been many episodes of inter-communal violence since the late 19th century Following independence there had been significant riots in 1956 1958 1977 in which hundreds of people predominantly Tamils had been killed But 1983 was altogether more serious It's estimated that somewhere between one and three thousand people Were killed in the course of a few days in an episode known as black July The overwhelming majority of them were Tamils murdered by gangs of Sinhalese It should also be noted however, and you will always hear this From Tamils who escaped the violence that countless thousands of Tamils owe their lives To Sinhalese families who sheltered them But Jack black July was a kind of crystal nut for the Tamils of Sri Lanka a Scar on their collective psyche The immediate effect of the riots was three-fold firstly thousands of Tamil youths flocked to enlist in the LTTE and other radical revolutionary groups transforming these rag tag Bandit outfits into very large revolutionary groups Prior to 1983 these groups had been relatively insignificant and nuisance rather than a threat to the state The LTTE for example had consisted of a few dozen men at most With a handful of murders and some bank robberies to that credit and and a lot of those murders by the way were of Tamils not Sinhalese They were often Tamil members of the security forces Secondly India for a complex of reasons The second effect of the of the 1983 riots was that India for a complex of reasons Opened training bases on her soil to thousands of Tamil fighters who were trained and then sent back to sow mischief in Sri Lanka Finally the 1983 riots converted and I think this is the most important aspect of the 1983 riots It converted hundreds of thousands of ordinary peaceful law-abiding Tamils in Sri Lanka and abroad They became convinced that the only thing Standing between the Tamils of Sri Lanka and their physical annihilation by the state was the gun It's not an uncommon and an uncommon story. In fact, you can transpose the same Conditions the same set of conditions to many other countries. I think If you want to learn about conversion of ordinary people to a violent reaction I suggest you read about the conversion to armed resistance of a 17-year-old Catholic middle-class Tamil girl Naromi Dissoysa who recently released her book Tamon Tigris points to the burning of the Jaffna Library in 1981 as her personal conversion But the point is the same Nobody in Sri Lanka seriously questions the fatal impact of 1983 or the direct link between these riots and the declaration of a defensive war By Sri Lankan Tamils This insurgency eventually became a serious threat to the state Thus we have to give some measure of credence To the fact that the armed rising against the state Was a reasonable response It was arguably a just response Given the failure of the state to provide security to its citizens. We've seen the same instances In recent times. I was certainly in Kosovo both before and after their revolution there And there are many similarities and one can point to I think a a range of similar circumstances around the world So just cause such as the right of people to rise against tyranny remains a recognized Fundamental political right. It's given birth to so many countries members of the UN It's currently driving the Arab Spring, which is demonstrably a popular response to tyranny The Tamil response to 1983 was an equal equally popular uprising Of course, there were many Tamils who dissented from this course Moderates who would later be targeted by the LTT incidentally But generally it was supported across a wide spectrum of the Tamil community The fault line at independence which became a grievance in 1956 with the similar only act Suddenly became a violent backlash in 1983 But what happened to this just cause and its associated response? I believe and I've written as much in my book That with the dominance of the Tamil Tigers the just cause was doomed at its inception by the unjust means selected by the Tamil Tigers Further, I believe that much of the responsibility for this failure Lies with the personal rule of the Tiger Supremo Velopilai Prabhakaran And I know that that will be an unpopular comment with many of you in this room You may think quite reasonably that I am Disliked by the government of Sri Lanka But if you haven't read my book you won't be aware of how unpopular I am with those who still burn a candle for this man of whom there are many. I Won't delve too deeply here into my argument that this just cause was supplanted and ultimately perverted by Prabhakaran. I will refer you to chapter 4 of my book, but I go into it in some detail there Suffice to say he was a man for his times with a punch on for violence who found his calling in the Tamil cause The American political philosopher Michael Walzer says and I quote the revolutionary Reveals his freedom in the same way that he earns it by directly confronting his enemies and refraining from attacks on anybody else The LTT Developed into an ingenious fighting force that made use of multiple forms of warfare from classic guerrilla to Conventional units supported by artillery in the 1990s They became an archetype for the non-state threat to the state in the New World order that followed the end of the Cold War But they use of terrorist tactics Which was one set of tactics in their armory of tactics Took a mounting toll on civilian lives and in my book. I go to some trouble to distinguish between The use of terrorism and other tactics used by the LTT Innocent people Commuters villages not just Sinhalese but Tamils to fell victim to this targeted violence Terror was a conscious tactical choice. It was one that the ANC in South Africa Determinately avoided because Mandela believed that terror attacks on civilians would destroy the struggle for justice This is precisely I believe what ultimately happened to the LTT To paraphrase Walzer the kind of freedom revealed by the LTT was not a very palatable one The struggle for justice poisoned by excessive violence Ultimately obscured the just cause of the Tamil people and Here's the twist and this is really important this twist at some indeterminate point in this quarter long in this quarter century long war between 1983 and 2009 at some point The right of the state to reclaim its territory and to reimpose rule over its citizens became the just cause Now it's for others to determine at what point that occurred as I say in my book I Went to Sri Lanka as a supporter of the state's right to reclaim its territory and I left with that belief intact Given the circumstances I've outlined above and here is a big but To paraphrase Walzer again if the revolution reveals itself in the way it is fought Surely the reverse must be true that the state reveals itself in the way that it is defended So for me whilst defending the right of the state to reclaim its territory from this insurgent group that there were questions serious questions left hanging at the end of the war Surely the cause was just but were the methods used by the state just and Beyond the victory Did the state reveal itself as a just victor in? 2006 the government of Sri Lanka under the leadership of President Mahinda Raja Paksa Began an unparalleled Effort to destroy the Tamil Tigers Mahinda Raja Paksa was and remains a popularly elected leader Together with his brothers got to be a and Basil They doggedly sought a military solution to the Tamil Tiger menace The advantage of the brothers Raja Paksa was their unity of purpose and that combined competence and political savvy They recruited massive numbers of troops whilst they established predictable lines of credit for cash oil and arm supplies from friendly countries such as China Pakistan and our favorite Iran India and the US Chipped in with intelligence and radar that enabled the interception and sinking by the Sri Lankan Navy of Tiger arms supply vessels on the high seas Incredible engagements fought actually not far from the Australian coast on one occasion Meanwhile over the course of about two years the armed forces of Sri Lanka steadily rolled back the Tamil Tiger lines First north and then eastwards across the island the basic strategy of the army was one of attrition Whilst they held the existing front lines small units of commandos brought havoc deep inside Tiger territory I argue in my book that between 2007 and 2009 the armed forces of Sri Lanka fought to a disciplined battle plan that involved relatively low civilian casualties Villages fled their homes as army bombardments came close artillery Pound of the Tiger lines drawing more and more fighters in before troops moved steadily forward to claim territory Gradually by late 2008 Hundreds of thousands of civilians have been uprooted and were on the move and Perhaps this is when what was happening in Sri Lanka? Peers to the consciousness of a number of people here When when the when the the full impact of this war was becoming known But all of those people who are uprooted only a few thousand managed to cross the front lines into government territory most civilians Making individual Survival decisions for their families and there were probably around 50,000 of these families inside Retreated further into Tamil Tiger held territory Military observers who always said that the Tigers were unbeatable and they continued to say that until very late in the day People who had observed this war in Sri Lanka for many many years said the Tigers were militarily unbeatable They were convinced that Prabhakaran was engaged in a Fabian retreat They waited for the master counter-stroke But it never came More and more civilians were gathered up in the retreat either unable or unwilling or forcibly prevented From crossing the front lines into government held territory by the Tigers So here we come to the issue of just war and just means Which is really why I wrote my book the cage As more and more civilians were forced into a smaller and smaller pocket of land those who led the Sri Lankan army were faced with a dilemma a Serious dilemma a real dilemma for military planners How to separate and finish off the Tamil Tigers to kill Prabhakaran the same way that Osama bin Laden was Notably killed and deliberately killed by the US and To spare as many civilians as possible This is a singularly modern problem not because these kinds of battles haven't been fought before military history from Fusilities onwards is one long bloody tale of civilians being butchered by armies intent on coming to terms with each other But the difference is today we have complex laws of war that govern in theory how armies fight The notion is that it is unjust to kill non-combatants if it can be avoided The government of Sri Lanka had nothing per se to gain from killing civilians and Everything to gain from pulling off an historic victory over an implacable enemy with as little bloodshed as possible And incidentally, I believe that that intent guided that battle plan Pretty much throughout During this period and I'm talking about late January 2009 when things apparently began to come unstuck Through to mid-May when the battle was brought to an end the government continued to maintain the following propositions Their forces were not responsible for civilian deaths They had what they called a zero civilian casualty policy If there were any civilian deaths, it was the Tigers shooting their own Which by the way had enough truth in it to make it a Presentable fact Because there is evidence plenty of it To show that the Tigers killed civilians to prevent them from leaving the siege area To this day the government continues to insist that its forces were not responsible for any civilian deaths Then they repeated another mantra The government persistently asserted that they were not using heavy artillery The use of heavy artillery in an area in which civilians rubbed shoulders with fighters was a necessarily indiscriminate device Discrimination when targeting an adversary is one of the building blocks of the laws of war one of the cardinal rules The government knew this Which is why they gave repeated assurances to people such as UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon and US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton We're not using heavy weapons. They said Finally from January they insisted that there were barely any civilians inside Initially they conceded fifty thousand Then they said seventy thousand but never above that number as people continued to flock out In the event when the battle was done in mid-May around three hundred thousand people emerged from the siege zone to this day Those three elements Have never been satisfactorily Explained no civilian deaths no use of artillery and very few people inside That assertion that very few people were inside So there was this absurd insistence that the government of Sri Lanka forces were not responsible for a single civilian casualty Nor were they responsible for any wrongdoing in this ferociously fought battle in which around 6,000 Sinhalese soldiers were killed a huge toll This incidentally explains the rather dogged and some would say unbalanced reporting from Channel 4 UK Which has continued to deconstruct this self-evident absurdity Beginning with serious allegations around battlefield executions Reporters after all are pretty good at sniffing out when something is wrong Incidentally which army can say rationally that it is free of wrongdoing on the battlefield Australia has had a recent Incident in which we have examined the the carriage of our troops on the battlefield in Afghanistan By extension why the continual insistence by the government that it didn't use heavy weapons as you may know a UN report issued in April says that there is credible evidence to suggest that hospitals and medical points were deliberately and systematically targeted Using heavy weapons by the army of Sri Lanka That report speaks about 65 separate instant insert instances documented of hospitals and medical points that at the time were filled with civilians and Why the odd arithmetic related to the numbers? Why the insistence that so few civilians were trapped inside the siege zone when the government's own civil service knew the figures? The army had state-of-the-art iron the sky real-time intelligence delivered to it by drone and By the satellite technology of its allies China the Chinese and the Indians They also as they have frequently repeated had excellent ground intelligence. It's what contributed to the considerable victory that they eventually won So I'm often asked, but how do you know how many people were killed? One reply is that I don't know That's one reply. I won't give you the other replies, but that's one reply But we do know that we should take with a grain of salt anything the government of Sri Lanka has to say on the matter of civilian deaths This after all is a government that insists to this day that its forces Killed no civilians, and I'm aware of the report that's just been issued as well And what we do know to be rums filled in about it for a moment Is what we don't know? All those questions left unanswered by the things that the government of Sri Lanka tried to sell as the truth and Which turned out to be so patently false We do have pretty good indications That probably somewhere between 10 and 40,000 people were killed. This is not my own figure plucked from nowhere It's credible enough for the UN to have used it as part of its assessment into the available evidence Now the reason why all this matters is because it goes again to the heart of why I wrote my book describing a counter-narrative to that Rather absurd a narrative that was presented and has been stuck by by the government of Sri Lanka I Do suggest in my book that having fought the good fight and a fairly disciplined campaign over a number of years The government tripped up at the last hurdle It took a course of action that has resulted in alleged grave crimes The reasons for this are complex I won't go into them now and we don't know all the answers as to why this happened But I believe that there is enough evidence of wrongdoing out there and enough Blanket denial obfuscation and sheer bluster from the government to warrant an international judicial investigation into the final phase of the war in Sri Lanka Incidentally we know one part of the story because the government has never been shy to present the evidence We know that the Tigers were responsible for max mass executions for forcible recruitment and for keeping their own people Hostage against a full frontal assault by the government Recall that there were no independent journalists and no real presence of international humanitarian workers inside or close to the siege zone The exceptions to that were two international UN officers whose stories are detailed in my book and the International Red Cross Which maintained an in fact an evacuation point on the beach In the Northeast where where people were finally confined in the final phase of the siege Yet somehow despite the paucity of independent reports the lack of outspoken witnesses Most of us most of you were left with an impression of how this three decades old insurgency ended It was probably something along the lines of something happened probably a lot of civilians died We don't really know and probably never will on balance. It's a good thing that the Tamil Tigers were destroyed Perhaps given the vagueness of it all we haven't decided that it's best left where it is let sleeping dogs lie Indeed since the end of the war we have heard the government of Sri Lanka and its proxies advance various reasons for letting the dogs of war lie It's nobody's business, but Sri Lankans It's all smoke and mirrors the trickery of the Tamil diaspora It's an international conspiracy Although like a bad detective novel the purported motives remain rather hazy It's a human rights cabal led by self-righteous do-gooding drum-beating campaigners like vice Look at the US in Iraq or Australia's treatment of its native people or the British bombing of Dresden Why pick on us? Or but we were fighting terrorists like you guys or We in Sri Lanka don't do the Judeo-Christian reconciliation thing Sorry, or well, we do do the reconciliation thing frankly and all these accusations are spoiling our efforts at at reconciliation Which is I think what you heard a couple of weeks ago for anyone who was here at the lecture a couple of weeks ago Incidentally, I don't know if any of you have read the international crisis groups latest report Reconciliation in Sri Lanka harder than ever question mark the title says it all Incidentally, one of the things it says is that the Tamil diaspora have failed to take on board the failings of the Tamil Tigers as well But the credible allegations of gross wrongdoing of law breaking in fact are there and they are real And they have continued to emerge in the two years or so since the end of the war The problem is now that it's the government of Sri Lanka that's left to carry the burden of those Accusations because the senior Tamil Tiger leadership were all killed There's no one left to put on trial The government says that to scrutinize them is unfair and that the gains to be made from looking at what happened at The end of the war are outweighed by the benefits of peace Who can argue with that? Don't mess with our version of events. They say because you're messing with reconciliation In other words, there's an implied threat that the nosy parkers are going to spoil the peace So it doesn't matter Does the truth matter? I Happen to think that the truth always matters Not in a rankerous unbending black-and-white Legally sense, but only the truth matters in and of itself But that's not good enough because of course there are greater issues at play What's the point of truth if you can't have peace? This brings me to the timing of truth, which is important as we consider the requirements of justice versus the requirements of peace First to justice In the 1860s during the American Civil War. It was considered acceptable to take and execute civilian hostages It was an acceptable tactic of war In the siege of Leningrad during World War II It was theoretically legal for the German army to force starving civilians back into Leningrad Where a million of them died of starvation Teddy Roosevelt Was considered liberal because he had misgivings about black Americans being lynched At one stage we in Australia thought it okay to deny the franchise to the original inhabitants of our country My point is that while we as people probably Don't evolve much at our essence at our core Our means of restraining ourselves have evolved Our notions of what constitutes justice and just means evolves The course of international justice since the second world war traces this very arc However, one characteristic of justice is that as it evolves So to the fiction That justice is not temporal but is eternal And one can understand the resentment that that breeds That something considered legal one year is illegal the next But let's not kid ourselves. Let's not be blinded By today's standards the wholesale killing of civilians in pursuit of a military objective is quite simply illegal It is however for a court to decide the various thresholds proportionality distinction the relative value of the military gains And not for us this evening in relation to the war in Sri Lanka And now to touch on peace I don't know if I can do this but who here believes that one can have a peaceful future Without an acknowledgement of the past It's a pressing question A peaceful future without an acknowledgement of the past I do for one Last century Japan and Germany were surely Forced by defeat to confront their monumental crimes They rebuilt their societies beginning with war crimes trials that confronted the truth But we can't ignore the empirical evidence of a country like Spain so liberal So evolved so central to the european ideal Yet which has largely avoided any reconciliation with the truth of its murderous civil war 75 years ago It built a society based on forgetting I was living in Spain at the time when they began digging up Bodies in fields from the civil war. It was fascinating These old people who had walked past these bodies all their lives and finally it was okay to dig them up and Acknowledge their relatives. They'd never been able to acknowledge before but Spain built a society based on forgetting So as uncomfortable as I feel about saying this and although my spirit rebels against it I must say that I think it is possible for justice to be ignored in pursuit of a lasting peace If justice is not necessarily a precondition for lasting peace then surely reconciliation is I'm not so sure. I want to read you my prognosis for Sri Lanka if I may And I'm very close to being finished. I promise you Unfortunately Judging by current trends on the ground An astute soothsayer might guess that the future for Sri Lanka's Tamil citizens is bleak The emigration of Tamils from Sri Lanka will continue encouraged by political stagnation a lack of rights and ruled by fear Tens of thousands of Tamils displaced by the fighting but unable to leave will be resettled at the government's discretion Using security as a pretext for usurping private property in key areas The hitherto relatively contiguous area that has formed the basis for a Tamil claim to an historic homeland Will be broken up and interspersed with hundreds of army camps staffed by Sinhalese soldiers Incidentally for those of you who have read my book. I also take on that That notion of the historic Tamil homeland But nevertheless that is my prognosis for the future um The point is That if I were in the position of the government of Sri Lanka, I might solve my ethnic problem the very same way Europe did it for hundreds of years Even up until 1947 the founding year almost of Sri Lanka I'd like to restate what I established from the outset in my book I went to Sri Lanka as a supporter of that state's right to reclaim its sovereign territory From an insurgent group whose just cause had been hopelessly perverted by the methods it chose to use The Tamil Tigers targeted civilians ran secret prisons and torture centers and were ruthless towards even their own people Even at the very end when all was hopeless that policy appears to have been one of scant mercy The world is a better place without Velu Pillai Prabhakaran But is there peace What kind of peace is it Will it last Is it the type of peace that we would wish on other countries that face similar internal challenges? There is certainly no justice coming from the government of Sri Lanka And no real effort to provide a credible meaningful account of how they manage this final phase of the war And don't be fooled by talk of reconciliation. It's a fine word It slips easily from the tongue with those plummy english accents that you'll hear on this documentary That's just been released. But I suggest to you that reconciliation is meaningless without the truth Reconciliation allow the government the current government of Sri Lanka is a prescription to ensure that like 1956 and 1983 The year 2009 will remain just another bloody marker in Sri Lanka's history of suppression of violent suppression of political descent Not just over the Tamils, but all political descent Look to what happens this November when the government's own lessons learned and reconciliation commission hands down its findings My final point is just this The UN panel says that what appears to have happened in Sri Lanka represents a grave assault on the entire regime of international war Yet despite all the practical doubts I have outlined I remain a realist Fately drawn to the allure of liberal internationalism I think that Australia should support a credible inquiry into what happened in Sri Lanka Because we as a society uphold and believe in the rule of law And no Sri Lankan who comes and lives in Australia as my friend Naroma Desoisa has said to me can miss that distinction The protection of the rule of law And also because the rule of law has become increasingly important in the international power structure In an increasingly insecure world soft power mechanisms emanating from the rule of law matter The way that countries choose to handle their internal affairs do affect us The few Tamil refugees washing up on our shores Are a tiny example Think of the 300,000 Bosnian refugees who flowed into Germany During the wars in the former Yugoslavia I wrote I wrote my book Alone for a year without any research assistance or any financial support For the very simple reason that I think that what happened in Sri Lanka matters Pursuing justice in Sri Lanka seeing justice done Leaving aside the interests of Sri Lanka's people Is in is in Australia's own best long-term interests As Greg Sheridan wrote just weeks ago in the Australian regarding our China relationship Australia should never be afraid of speaking truth to power Thanks for your patience Yeah According to whom Well, no according to the government's version of of of of the ICRC figures Because they won't the ICRC doesn't say anything that's how they gain that privileged access to battlefields Yeah Yeah, okay. Look It's a good question. Why should there be an international investigation? But I think that's what I was saying here tonight I think there should be an international an international investigation because there has not been yet a credible explanation For so many things that happened at the end of the war But the un advisory panel No, no, no, no, please don't don't don't don't now question I understand that it's one of the tactics of the government of Sri Lanka to call it the durisman report And and and to not not actually assign it the status of an official No, that's the opinion of the government of Sri Lanka No, no, no, no Yes, well Ban Ki-moon's the secretary general of the United Nations. It does give it a certain status. Don't you agree? No, it's not just a personal opinion. It's an advisory report Given by given by three senior international jurists to the UN secretary general Well, okay fine. All right, so but but but no no no look and and I and I applaud your courage And I also applaud the courage of this gentleman even though he didn't actually give me a question You wanted to give a speech but I applaud your courage in getting up and and and challenging the stuff that I say But I but I but I still I I would still say to you that you haven't really listened to what I've said In the last 50 minutes and I apologize to people who've sat through 50 minutes of me talking. So another question Yes Disciplined yes Well, uh, as I said, I think it's complex And I think that it's not really known in one sense But I think that the army began trying to meet deadlines and I think That one indication is the large numbers of troops that began getting killed In the final phase of the war. There were some really desperate hard fought battles And I think there were some significant dates that were laid down that were according to a political timetable rather than a military timetable One of the things that I I I I describe in my book certainly as the role of the of the Indian elections Which I think were from May 13th to May 16th 2009 So I I I think that the battle itself that became an urgency to finish the war And I think that the pressure was growing from the international community as well to try and prevent the bloodshed To to prevent the impact on civilians at the end of the war. So the the Consequent pressure on the government grew and the impulse grew to finish the war very quickly I think it was concluded in a very Hurried way and in a way that was that it hadn't been fought perhaps in the previous two years As I said, I mean my impression is that they tripped up at the at the last hurdle Does that does that explain it to some extent? It's not refined perhaps, but yes Right Some action going on Yeah, well, I think it's a complicated um Paradigm, I mean the uh, you know, it's one of the things I actually talk about quite extensively in my book is that You know the reason why Sri Lanka was able to and and it was really one of those moments You know, it was a it was a moment that they that they Seized upon quite reasonably and that was You know the the advent of China Of a wealthy China and the international scene Of a somewhat weakened US and America in sorry US and India in Sri Lanka Um So they really had the gate was open and Sri Lanka was able to take advantage of investment in Sri Lanka Reasonable reasonable arms Cash and oil credit supply lines. And so there was not a lot to restrain them Um on the international scene with the protection of China There really was not a lot to restrain Sri Lanka and and ultimately, you know, Sri Lanka is a sovereign country It it it operates and makes decisions according to its own best interests Its interests were protected protected in the security council by principally China also russia Also, to a lesser extent India It was what I call a geopolitical moment In the book Regarding the the the doctrine of responsibility to protect I mean that was a developing doctrine and and and really it's a it's a doctrine that has yet to be adopted by the international community across the board and it remains a it remains a A an untested doctrine really. I seem to recall That uh professor gareth evans during the war said that Sri Lanka was in fact in his opinion And he was one of the people who worked on the doctrine to protect for the secretary general at the time Kofi Nan said that Sri Lanka was not a case for R2p But From the from the point of view of the UN and the UN's involvement Because that was another protective factor in Sri Lanka. I mean the UN had been kept very weak in Sri Lanka It didn't have a political role. It didn't have it certainly didn't have a military role It was not party to Peace talks between the parties it really only had a humanitarian role So it had a very weak role in in in Sri Lanka So there were there were very few forces to really restrain the government of Sri Lanka It was one of those sort of perfect perfect moments really and the government quite reasonably took advantage of that perfect moment To try and finish off the war. They had domestic political support. They had great credit from china and protection from china Um, it there was the transition between the bush and obama administrations You know, so there was not a lot to restrain. There was not a lot to restrain Sri Lanka And they they they took care of businesses. They saw fit I hope that's somewhere towards answering a question. Yes Okay No, it's no it's absolutely not by counting the bodies And two and a half two and a half years later the battle the battlefield has never been visited by anyone Apart from the army of Sri Lanka. So no like let me finish before me. So no one has has um Visited the the the battlefield to all to all intents and purposes. It is a closed Dare I say crime scene No one knows really But I think there was enough evidence out there to triangulate what is missing and what is unanswered So to say on one to say on one hand You don't know you weren't there. You didn't count anyone. You didn't see anything Is not to say that there is not a problem There is a problem and we know we know we know enough We know enough to say well While the government of Sri Lanka was saying that nobody died and that its forces were not responsible for any deaths Yeah, and that they were not using heavy artillery There's enough eyewitness testimony that we gathered to counter that Well, let's say that let's let's say that let's say that let's say that Yeah, that's right. That's right. 10 to 40 10 to 40 000 Well, no, no, no, no, no. I take issue with that the issue is not numbers The issue is an accountable and accountable narrative is true accountability What happened at the end of the war? It's not coming from the government of Sri Lanka If you guys stand here and say, yeah, yeah, yeah, but you don't know how many people died was a 10 or 40 How did you come up with the figures? We don't know what people have asked for is accountability And that has not come yet from the government of Sri Lanka Certainly not from the 161 page report that was released two two days ago Certainly not from the Very neat documentary that was put online yesterday And it's probably not going to come dare I say from the lessons learned and reconciliation commission But I will say this That there was a team of people who were triangulating the reports that they could get from inside the battle scene And by early april they had counted some 7 000 reports of people being killed Some 7 000 by early april now the greater part of the battle had yet to take place The toughest fighting had yet to take place that happened really between the beginning of april and mid-may So who knows how many people died We don't know and it would be foolish for anyone to say that they know but we do know what we don't know And certainly what we don't have at the moment is a reasonable A reasonable account from the government of Sri Lanka. We're still waiting for it. Tell us what happened If that's all we do know if that's all we do know and I'll tell you why the 40 000 Because the because the best population estimate or guesstimate ranges from 330 000 upwards Now I have said since january last year that I think between 10 and 40 000 people were killed The lower figure based on the actual count the upper figure based on what I choose to regard as the best population estimate Okay, now others such as the international crisis group have said actually we think it could be much higher We think it might be 80 000 and let me tell you in the Tamil diaspora they're talking about 100 000 200 000 dead And you know why? Because they're not getting a reasonable account from anyone now if the government of Sri Lanka said We killed 5 000 civilians in the effort to finish off this dreadful terrorist group and kill Prabhakaran It was terrible. We're in we're a we're a poor country. We we didn't have a refined fighting force We we we were under the gun. We thought we were going to lose him But there's been nothing that there's been no reasonable account of what happened and the efforts that were undertaken As I said and as I said in the speech, I believe it was a just cause But the method is is is really what needs accounting for And and it's not enough to say yeah, yeah, we did it. No one got killed everyone happy I don't think that's I don't think that's reasonable Sorry Just on the political side now that the war is finished, um, you mentioned, um I'm not familiar with all the names You mentioned the president and his brothers Has the of course the victory strengthened them and what's the The road forward if of course they don't have these The required or what you suggest a justice and reconciliation. What's the road forward for democracy and um, they're on the current president's Strength and political power I mean, it's a very good question. As I say, you know, um, the raja paksa, you know, hinder raja paksa is a popularly elected Um, um president He has the support of the majority of shri lankans um The likelihood is that he will go on to to to to A govern You know for many years to come the likelihood is that Prosperity will grow in shri lanka. There will be a form of peace Um, and and things will improve things have improved immensely already the security situation has improved Plenty of tamels say that plenty of tamels say well, you know Might have been worth it actually You know without really knowing what went on plenty of tamels living in shri lanka say, yeah, you know things are actually better I don't have to go through checkpoints. I'm not being harassed by soldiers as much as you know You know somewhere somewhere in there. There is a threshold There is a threshold somewhere in there and you know international law is all about establishing that threshold My essential argument is It's not good enough for a country just to say well nothing happened. Is everyone cool about that? We all right Let's get on with the tourists flocking to the beaches now. I don't think that's okay. I'm sorry I mean, I don't think that's a reasonable sort of response. I don't think that's a response of a that's a reasonable response of a of a of a you know Of a of a modern member of the international community and I don't think that a country like Australia should accept that I like to make a comment 1983 I was in the Saint Lucia's camp And the president of the country There was now come and sit in the television I was in the camp That more the single is that how much people are suffering the simple single will be happier Yes, yes That is the mindset of the people Since the British left Trammels are suffering for the last 60 years. That's a mindset of the single speed even today only exception is the grandchildren of the ex They are stability band are not Yes, I said that yeah, shame to be single is unless the mindset change of the entire humanity Nothing will change the humanity have to change that that they are that respect each other I have to tell you that coming and talking before an audience of expatriates You know if you were Turks and Armenians, I would have precisely the same problem because um You know, and I've seen it with my own father. My father is Jewish and you know came out of the Second World War Uh For me to stand up and try and make rational arguments and balance things up and talk about justice and those sorts of things You know, it's all very fine and it sounds very reasonable and blah blah But people who have been through it feel it in a way that I can't possibly feel it and that I don't do justice to And that applies to the Tamils and it applies to the Sinhalese and everyone's got their own individual story About that. Um, you know, I've tried to capture the middle ground in my book and in the talk I've just given I suspect that I fail a lot of the time because I'm just seen as a You know the Sinhalese see me as a as a member of an international conspiracy and a you know Bible thumping, you know, you know internationally a rah-rah person and the and the and the Tamils see me as a as a as a Well, you know, I've had people writing to be saying that I've written my book in the blood of Tamil children So and I write for profit Now anyone who's written a book here and I'm sure there are a number knows that you don't write books for profit You do not um so so You know, I appreciate your expression of your your your expressions there and your personal experience I I can't reflect on them. All I all I can try and reflect on is the middle ground. I've I've tried to capture. Anyway Yes Yes Can't be a counter for right. Yeah Let me tell you sir, I think 160,000 is absurd in my book. I think 100,000 is absurd Excuse me. Excuse me for excuse me for saying it. We don't know the number of people who were killed. We can only make a guess I've made the best possible guess I can make which is 10 to 40,000 Thanks very much for your patience and excuse me if I've offended offended people


Hello, I'm Mike McKee, the Bishop of the North Texas Conference of the United Methodist Church. As many of you know, and you have those dates on your calendar, we are scheduled to have annual conference begin on May 31st and conclude with June 2nd. I need to share with you that we have made a decision to postpone this year's annual conference. As of yet, that date has not been decided, but we'll be looking at possible dates and the ways in which we may have annual conference over the next two or three weeks and then allow that date to be published. As we do that, we know that we may have a different annual conference than we've ever had before. We do not know what the summer is going to look like. We do not know what we will be able to do together, but we do know that we will have an annual conference. And I know those of you who are going to be commissioned or ordained are already like, what is going to happen? This I can promise you. You will be commissioned if the executive session approves it and you will be ordained if the executive session approves it. But we're working closely with St. Andrew and I, Methodist Church, who is hosting us this year and working with them about possible dates. And I'm grateful for the work that they've already done. So we will let you know when we know that the annual conference session will be and where it will be. It will be at St. Andrew, but it will look differently in terms of the way in which we do business. We will continue to pray for our churches, for our clergy, the laity and the leaders. And I'm grateful for all the leadership that's been taking place to prepare for this year's annual conference. And it will not be in vain. We'll get back to you on that day. God bless you and thank you for your faithfulness.


Welcome to the OTP presented by Farm Bureau Health Plans. Farm Bureau Health Plans where you are the plan. Farm Bureau Health Plans makes it easy to get the health coverage you need for less than you think. See how at FBHP.com. With Titans Radio's Rhett Bryan and Dave McGinnis, I'm Mike Keith. We are glad to have you with us from the Bette MGM Studio. And what I think is a very special edition of the OTP. Well the OTP is for the OTP people. That's right. And this is a prime example of that. It is a prime example. We ask you to visit, if you were a person who visited my Instagram account which is at 10 voice, at T-E-N-N voice. We ask you to submit your questions for Coach Mack because everybody always wants to know what does Coach Mack think about this? What does he think about that? I couldn't get through on Mac Talk. And so here on this edition of the OTP, we have placed Coach Mack squarely in the Snickers hot seat. And Rhett and I will be feeding him your questions. So here we go. I'm going to go first. After being at both the college and NFL levels of coaching, what do you think is the biggest difference from a coach's perspective? The level of preparation. You know, in college you're limited with the number of hours you can have. The National Football League, it's 25-7. Just the college, just the level of, not only preparation, but the level of intensity that you have with your players preparing. Because this is their livelihood. This is everything. And so all professional players want is what can you do to help my game? And they don't want a lot of verbiage. What can you specifically do to help me every week in my career so that I can prolong it? But just the intensity of the preparation is a huge difference. When you were asked to come on Titans Radio with Mike Keith, who was someone you studied on in broadcasting to prepare you for the role as color analyst? You know, that to me is a great question. Because really before Mike called me, I never really thought about doing this. And he didn't give me much time. We didn't have much time. Because I understand now the circumstances. But I was called on a Monday and as we were talking through it, I said, well, when do you need me there? And he said, well, we're going to New York Saturday. And I went this Saturday. And so I really didn't have a whole lot of time, you know, to do that. Since then, since then, I pay a lot of attention, you know, to the broadcasting and what's going on. And I know that he's not a play-by-play guy, but I've always been a huge, huge Jim Nantz fan, just by the fact of just how professional he handles what goes on. And so... We're talking about a gold standard broadcaster. But I mean, I think that's what Titan's radio is, is a gold standard. And so anyway, there you go. What is the best name of a play call that you've ever heard? I've been a defensive coach until I was a head coach. And then I was an assistant head coach, so I was in charge of all it. But defensively, when you have to call out the formations as far as they line up in, Kings, Trips, Speed, Flip, Left, X-Wide, Z-Yo-Yo Motion, Y-Flare. So what is that defense? Kings, Trips, Speed is 11 personnel. Because in the National Football League, some people use numbers, you know, 10, 11, 12, 20, and some people use deck of cards, ace, kings, queens, you know, flush, jacks. So Kings is 11 personnel. Trips, Speed means all three receivers on the one side of the formation, the tight end is X, he's on the wide side of the formation. On the Trips, Speed side, you've got Z, W, and Y. Yo-Yo Motion, okay, Kings, Trips, Speed. You've got Yo-Yo Motion that means the inside receiver from the speed side starts to the center and then Yo-Yo's back to get into what we call a nine ball stack on the three receiver side. That's what that is. Okay. Your question, Rick, Brian. Yes. Wow. How do you remember all that? That's an excellent follow-up. The same way you remember everything you remember, I mean, you've got to, I've done it for a long time, a long time. It's been my life and so, you know, that's how. I've been doing it a long time. Same way you, and you've got to, when I first went to the Bears, they didn't ask this question, but it was before we had computers so, you know, I was the linebacker coach, but I was also the defensive quality control coach and so, the playbook that we put together to incorporate Buddy Ryan's 46 and then Vince Tobin's defenses, you had to draw it all by hand.  So, I wrote that whole thing. I wrote the whole thing and so when you do that, you learn it. It becomes that. Say that again one more time. Kings, trips, speed, flip, left, X, Y, Y, Y, yo, yo, motion. Isn't that a great example, as you repeat that, of why young players, rookies, have such a hard time coming to the NFL where they don't have play calls, especially the offensive players, they don't have play calls. They never deal with it. They just see courage on the sidelines and that tells them what to do. That's a perfect example why it really is. That's got to be brutal. It really is. And that is, that's a defensive version of that, you know, being able to talk about like on the headset, what are they doing, Mike?  Before we had all of these tablets and things, the West Coast offense is even more intricate than that coming from the offensive side of it. Wow. Mind blown. Mind blown. All right, this one, this is an excellent conversation at OTP to begin with. This is going to raise it a notch. Do you think NFL officiating is getting worse, better, or is it staying the same? Because I listened to you and Mike during Titans games and I always agree with your assessments on what's happening on the field. It's not as good as it used to be. It's not as good as it used to be from top to bottom. I think, you know, a lot of the best officials right now are in the television booth and you had some really, really veteran officials retire. And so people coming in, it's just like rookie players coming in. They have to learn the game. They have to learn the game and they only, you can't manufacture experience in any profession, but especially in this business because everything is so immediate. And that's why you see so many. And when I'm sitting up there with Mike Keith, I mean, he's always spot on.  And we've seen games as to when, you know, they've marked off 12-yard penalties and there's not 12-yard penalties on a 10-yard penalty play, you know, from... So just the administration of it, it's not as good as it's been. It's really not. Hey Titans fans, it's always game on with Duncan. So grab a coffee and kick off the action. Whether that's drinking a cup of coffee on your way to the game or grabbing one to go before watching the game at home. Duncan is always there to help you get your game on. Just like the pros, we need to be at our best come game time, which is why Duncan is the most important part of your game day ritual because it's always the best call for football. America runs on Duncan. Your questions for Coach Mack, you submitted them to me at 10voice, my Instagram account, and we're passing them on. Titan's immediate football question comes next. As well as Tajé Spears is playing right now, what ways can Tim Kelly keep he and Derek Henry involved without limiting snaps or telegraphing plays? Pony personnel is what we've seen both in the backfield at the same time and what we call a red set. You've already seen that. We saw it a lot, you know, during the practice as we get to go to before the season started that we can't talk about, but we saw him doing that a lot and he's using it in a red set which is a split back set and he's alternating whether he sets Derek to the tight side of the formation or to the open side of the formation and you're going to see a lot of different plays come off of this because it opens up a multitude of things you can do bringing them across the backfield, double screens. There's a lot of things that he can do, I mean just a myriad of it and plus with the threat of both of them being able to run and they're distinctly different runners both very effective with what they do. The pony personnel I think we'll start seeing more and more of. After the first two games of the season what is your opinion on Tim Kelly as the offensive coordinator? I think he does a nice job of layering calls and layering calls as a defensive coach you always when you're scouting the guy that's calling plays that's your opponent, you want to see first of all if he's layers calls which means is he building calls one upon the other with his personnel groups depending on what you've deployed over there on defense and then is he stacking calls and then the other part is is he setting up calls because the really good play callers set calls up in other words they'll set calls up series by series set calls up by you know put a certain personnel group out there in a certain formation see how the defense on a down and distance is going to adjust to it and then come back to something that can counter the way he's now sees the defense after that I think he does all of that. All right so I've got two sort of back to back here that tie in if that's okay. Coach Mack in the Snickers hot seat here it comes. Coach Mack who is the one current player in the NFL you wish you could coach? Oh that I like that. I like that question a lot. It can either be offensively. Yeah it does not say defense or offense. It could be anybody. Well I'd love to have Miles Garrett. Yeah I thought you were going to say that. If I'm calling defense. Why is he so different than like other edge rushers? He's a big man. He's a big man that plays like a little man. He can he's speed to power. He's athletic out through the roof but he's also a gumby bendy edge guy. You can line him up in multiple places. He can stand up in two point. He can go down in three point. He can do it all. He's the number one pick in the draft for a reason. Some number one picks in the drafts have not been legitimate players. This guy is a physical phenom and he's a good good football player that you can do so much with and he's a smart guy. 275 pounds plays like a guy. 235 or 240 in terms of his movement. You got it. I mean right there.  He is relentless. He was that he was that way at Texas A&M. I mean he's a special special player. Alright so this may be the same answer. If you could add one NFL defensive player to the Titans roster this year who would you add and why? Well how about that dude? Well that's what I figured you say. So let's take Miles Garrett out. Who else would be a guy that you would add if you could add one defensive player to the Titans roster this year. What would you add and why? I would really I would really like to be able to I would really like to be able to add a shutdown corner. Okay. Just a true a true. Now that that can be a varied opinion on who that dude is. But to me one of the most pure shutdown corners in this league still. Now we're saying that he's completely healthy is a Jalen Ramsey. Jalen Ramsey. Yeah and some guy can just you know I had one of those guys in my long coaching career in Aneus Williams. And I could do anything I wanted with him and we were in the NFC East at the time and I knew going in game planning against the Cowboys twice a year that I could tell him in that first meeting Nicky you've got Michael Irving and the rest of the ten of you here's what we're going to do to try to stop the rest of them. You know Emmett Smith and all that group but when you have that guy what's your feeling as a defensive coordinator when you're able to do that all those teams that Deion Sanders played for that was the guy and it makes a big difference. Alright this was going to take a minute to lay out here in your answer but this person's asking explain fourth quarter roles of a head coach including challenges, coaching, play calling, clock management and any other duties. Well first of all when you're an assistant coach you very rarely think of any of that because you're dialed in you're dialed in with your people if you're a coordinator you're working your side of the ball when I became a head coach you're thrown into a different world of the game the world managing a game is much different than coaching a position during a game and so you have to be aware of everything the thing that happens to though guys is it's really really important to have somebody you really trust in the box you've got to have somebody you really trust you've got to make the call but if you've got somebody in the box you can trust that can give you information when you ask for it in an instant, in an instant and especially with the challenges and those types of things that make a huge difference managing timeouts or being able to play the clock game I was very fortunate in my career to start out Mike Ditka was really good at this stuff and I come here and work for Jeff Fisher Jeff Fisher was really good at this stuff and so when I became a head coach then I would pick the brains of those guys as to how it was Dan Reeves was really good so I would sit with those guys you know when I would have opportunities just what we're doing right now and talk about those instances but they come up and they happen so fast that you've got to go into it you can prepare all you want but you have to be able to react in the moment but you have to have a real working knowledge of the rules because the rules make a difference Mike Vrables got a great handle on this he understands the game within the game but as a head coach much different than being a coordinator is now you're playing the big picture throughout all of it as to where coordinators are playing their side of it Coach Mack it doesn't come up often but I think the rule about fumbling the ball through the end zone is maybe the worst rule in all of sports would you be in favor of changing this rule and do you think it would pass if it was presented to the competition committee? It's been presented for years and it's never has passed and the reasoning is is an entity unto itself is an entity unto itself and so things are different down there and there is a premium on holding onto the football until you cross the goal line and that's always been I've been in meetings competition committees I've been through all of this this is not the first time it's come up but that is the argument that the goal line is the final outcome that offenses are trying to do and part of the goal line is getting the ball over the goal line get the ball over the goal line and if you fail to do that then there should be some sort of retribution rather than just saying the ball is out of bounds if you fumble it through the end zone and you don't and has it crossed the goal line and you're not in possession of it then it comes back out to the 20 I think it makes total sense because I mean what's the object of the game is to score more points than the other team you score points in various ways but the most obvious way is to score a touchdown which is to be in possession of the ball when you break the plane and if you're not in possession of the ball when you break the plane then there has to be a punishment for that if you get there and you fumble I think he certainly doesn't ever think it will pass competition committee while he's on there no and it sounds like you've been in the competition committee you know who you sounded like just then and this is a real compliment Mike Pereira by the way can we shout him out and hope he feels better what a good dude and look you talk about the officiating that we talked about earlier on when he was in charge perfection I tell you what Pereira brought to it he brought a transparency and a clarity to it when he was doing it for the league and some of the other guys Dean Blandino did a good job but Pereira was the gold standard because suddenly they were a little bit like the Wizard of Oz ignore the man behind the curtain sort of we don't ever question it and Pereira took that down he said well we didn't get this one right or we did get this one right or here's why we're doing this a lot of times when they explain things like we've just had the discussion about fumbling the ball through the end zone when you stop and think about it in that way it makes more sense a lot of the talking heads on TV and in media just saying oh that's awful they don't stop and think about why the rules of the game were put into effect and the game in that way still hasn't changed we don't win games on stats in fantasy on Sundays when we win games by who scores the most points and the end zone is sacred and see and that's why I say and I was very honest when I said that's the way Pereira would explain it I've been in competition committee meetings and meetings with just head coaches when you go to the owner's meetings and when he would stand up and explain things he did just what you did and everybody would go okay one of the greatest things I ever saw was after the tuck rule game when you know the raiders I mean there's microphones the raiders stood up and called him out brought a football and said explain this to us and he did and he did and he did just like that so shout out to Mike Pereira and for you for sounding like him on that well thank you I'll take that as a compliment it is a compliment if the team wins and Andre Dillard appears to struggle is Nicholas Petty Freire what does this tackle since Chris Hubbard seems to be doing an adequate job on the right side well Nicholas Petty Freire's got to get back into the swing of things first I mean that you know you can't expect somebody to come off of a six week suspension without having done football things I'm sure he's working out on his own because he cannot be in the building but you know to come back in I mean he's going to have to work himself back in first it's pretty far in the future right now and we've seen this a little bit though just with what Dylan Radence has done you know and so if you're on the team you're an offensive lineman the biggest value is if you can play multiple positions and so but as I said the first thing that NPF has got to do is get back in the swing of playing NFL football what is your favorite defensive and offensive package to run well this is it's all predicated on down and distance down and distance because of the matchups matchups on down and distance are everything but as a defensive coach early on when it first came into existence the hardest personnel group to defend on first and second down was 13 personnel which is you would have one running back three tight ends and one wide receiver but those tight ends could split out and make it look like 11 personnel with three wides one back you can make it look like 12 you know two tights two wides and your matchups is what you're working on so now as a defensive coach you're thinking do I play base defense against this with four down and three linebackers do I play nickel do I do I do I put extra defensive back in there do I go to an extra backer package to be able to take to take care of the size they have in there now or if they split them out are my backers able to work in space so 13 personnel was always a big problem when it when it first you know came into the league you know for that defensively defensively I always liked to be able to play the big nickel because with the big nickel you know you had a chance with the four man front to use that the big nickel guy in a lot of different ways you could you know you could rob the middle with him you could play him as a linebacker you could match him on a tight end say a specific tight end that was a really good receiver but he could hold up in the run game I always liked the big nickel because that one piece you know it's like it's like what Nick Saban does and all the all the defenses in the southwest southeastern you know when the conference play this star you know thing because it gives you the multiplicity without having to change personnel groups all the time and on defense this is my final question I have what pub will coach Mack be hanging out in London so I could buy him a pint and he can educate me on how Jack Gibbons has gone from a player who was waived last year to a starter this year and is really making an impact he appears to have a nose for the football go frogs I love the question and I love the ending of that I'll be in that pub where we had the radio show when we were over there the last time Bed Bath and Beyond was that the name of I don't think that was it Barrow Boy and Banker and there it is is that where you're going so a lot of the things the Titans are going to do in London are going to be announced next week so where we might be where everybody is gathering or whatever may happen I think some of those things will be announced next week and they might ask you to go to one of those spots I'll go to all of them you're not going to go to Bed Bath and Beyond but that was so much fun last time I mean it was just it was tremendous it was incredible in fact I spent a good time with some of your family upstairs at that one it was tremendous yes my family is going again I'll be with them it was tremendous so as soon as they get those locations let me know I'll be there Seat Geek is now the official ticketing partner of the Tennessee Titans that's right the deal is finalized and Seat Geek is the newest member of the Titans family if you haven't heard the name yet you haven't been listening to the OTP so what's your problem that's not in there I'm sorry I shouldn't have said that not very nice seriously what's your problem you haven't heard the name yet get used to it because you'll be hearing it a lot more this season whether you're buying or selling ticket Seat Geek probably appreciates that right whether you're buying or selling tickets to the Titans game or any live event in Nashville Seat Geek is the place to do it Seat Geek the new official ticketing partner of the Tennessee Titans so Titans fans can fan nicely done Rhett the questions for Coach Mack continue I'm going to let Rhett take it home right here you do the rest of them alright we're going to take it home here where would you rank the Titans defense throughout the entire NFL when they are fully healthy yeah rankings rankings are kind of like fantasy football I mean it's all up for grabs it's all about production I would say just off of production off of production they're really stout against the run and by their own admission they can tighten it up in the back end some you know Jim Schwartz very well what does he bring to the Cleveland defense that makes them one of the league's best also the Browns have played a lot of man coverage in their first two games what are some of the concepts that Tim Kelly can run to set the offense up for success yeah I game plan with Schwartz for five seasons here as an assistant head coach and linebacker coach and so he's very intricate in what he does he studies match ups a lot but he leans on a base of a four down scheme and he does that so that he can cover with seven you talk about getting creative with your coverages any time you can cover with seven over five eligible receivers you've either got three over two and four over three I mean that's what defensive coaches work for but to get that you have to be able to take care of the run and the pass with four people up front having to bring anybody down the times where he will get really creative is if he gets you in third and seven plus third and eight plus we always had special blitzes on third down that the opponent had not seen before to be able to attack coverages but his preparation is very very detailed oriented and he covers everything as a coordinator this is for the OT people will take you behind the scenes a little when you're working on an opponent the scout team is running cards but you have to draw cards so that you can show them in the huddle as to what the offense wants to look like but those cards have to be really precise or guys are looking at them and you're trying to run practice on time and I've seen Jeff Fisher look at cards before and throw them out who drew that because the guys can't read it Jim Schwartz as a coordinator normally the coordinators don't do this he drew every card and I used to pride myself on being a good card drawer because you got to be detailed and it takes time and he told me this when I first came here to work for him I said hey look because I came in here as a head coach and then I said look I understand tell me which cards you want me to draw Coach Mack I draw the cards he says you may be able to draw cards but mine are rim brands and I went really he doesn't lack for confidence and I went I went really I went really but listen to this the first time I saw him I went I look like a street painter to this it was it so anyway very detailed fascinating so his card should be in the Louvre in France rim brand okay finally Jack what do you believe are the keys to going on the road in Cleveland to come out with a win you got to control their front first you cannot let their defensive front control the game and then our defense needs to outplay their defense I mean this is what you're looking at offensively you've got to stay out of the third and chains and when I say third and chains I'm talking about third and seven plus you've got to stay out of that and then defensively and I think that they would want to do that I see get some turnovers turn the ball over and keep it when we've got it keep it but defensively get some turnovers this is going to be a big a big game for defenses trying to see who's who in the zoo out there and so this is going to be really important to control their front and then to let our front go eat Cleveland has not allowed anyone in the red zone so far this year that's good defense that's good they have not had a red zone defensive snap so far in their first two games because no I think the closest anybody's gotten is like their 25 they have given up less than 400 total yards to Cincinnati and Pittsburgh so they are allowing less than 200 yards per game that's good defense that's good defense but interestingly enough they have only two takeaways and they have only four sacks so far which is kind of strange they've turned the ball over six times and they've given up nine quarterback sacks so their offense has not been very efficient or very clean as you would say but their defense is through the roof well because he's got people it's all about the players but if you can we went back to what the difference in professional sports he gives his guys a chance to do what they do and doesn't try to muddle it up a lot so would you be willing to do this again if we ask for questions for coach Mack would you be willing to do it again I want I want the OT people to come to Bed Bath and beyond in London see and so that we can so that we can we probably got to stop joking about this because aren't they out of business anyway okay and so that's one thing and the second thing is if they aren't out of business in London the OT people will show up there expecting to see you in the Crock-Pot aisle and you and you won't be there buying a new bedspread you know I waited by a KitchenAid mixer for two hours there's literally going to be an announcement what was the real name of it Rhett Barrow Boy and Banker okay I think Bed Bath and beyond is better I don't even know what all that means but again next week information is going to come out for those going to London about what's going to happen in terms of the get together sort of thing and I'm hoping we can be there and I'm hoping you'll choose to be there but there will be like an official thing that's so great and you know I've been over there quite a few times as a coach but now when we went over as a brother I can we can interact with the fans now as well we do right as a coach you can't and you know the places that I've gone you were there for like five hours or something crazy weren't you you stayed a long time the last time we were the last time 2018 yeah why would you leave well I mean you were with Titans fans in London well I left because my family said we're leaving that's why I left well it's in the Mr. Grand Old Time Mike because let's see Javon Curse Eddie George I saw that Keith Bullock just kept going and going Coach Mac won't leave now with what I'm doing now in this second career that you've afforded me if I'm with the fans are there I'm in the middle of it I know again next week that's going to come out also want to mention that we hope that you will subscribe to the Titans YouTube channel because we've got a lot of great stuff on the Titans YouTube channel right now like everything Coach Mac does on TV the video version of the OTP different things from our various shows are on the Titans YouTube and it's easy to find it is very easy to find and it's easy to pull up and it's it's really not because I'm on it that doesn't but the production of its tremendous it is tremendous and you can help by hitting the like button when you subscribe and also hitting the notification bell so that you're notified when there's new content which there is every day there's new stuff every day everything we do I mean no matter where you are in the world if you go to the Titans YouTube channel you can find something new every day that helps you get ready for Sunday or you know like some of our other outstanding features that we do on on various things we'd love for you to tune in and stay up with it and the people over there bed bonkers and bath can bed bonkers and bath well he's pulling out a different reference trying anyway anyway they can see it too that's right and that's the thing is we'd love meeting the international fans when we went to London and you know now we're going to get at some point we're going to get to go to Germany that'll happen for us but Madrid too that's going to happen I saw that recently I'm all for that and just I was with the Bears we went to Gutenberg Sweden nice played the Vikings we was everybody for the Vikings there you think we went we went to Berlin to play the 49ers we're over there for a week it's an experience and we had fans all over the place and the Titans fans that showed up in London last time was massive it was really cool so looking forward to that looking forward to winning every game we play up until then and it'll be rolling there you go for Coach Dave McGinnis who was kind enough to take your questions and sit in the Snickers hot seat and thank you for the questions by the way to the OT people and for Rhett Brian I'm Mike Keith thanking you for joining us from the Bet MGM studio for the OT