So it's live for me says live for you. Mm-hmm. All right, we are live Hello, anyone everyone that is here with us We are here to talk about the first two volumes in the Dark Tower series You should know who I am says my channel So Bethany, thank you probably know who Bethany is if you know why I would you like I mean like every four months. I'm on your channel for blades and box but yeah, I'm Bethany from beautiful British Bethany and I I read a lot of things I read more romance than Liana does does but I do else Bethany makes me read some romance.  Exactly some mutually beneficial relationship Or equally torturous Whichever way you want to look at it, you know So yeah, I mean I how did we even decide to read these now and both read these? You made me read Dragon for the TBR swap and I liked it and then you were like, oh Well, I kind of want to read the gutter dark tower series and I was like, oh, yeah, I liked the movie Right and there was suppose which we don't even know that based on book to you But like supposedly there was crossover and I was like, yeah, cool. Let's try that All right, that's right. That's here we are So I think we should just like address the elephant in the room immediately that neither of us Would say we are fans of what we have read so far I think I've been slightly more positive about this But it's like a matter of like quibbling degrees like yeah, if I we had to say one of us liked about anything Other I think I liked it better than you but by a slim margin. Yeah, I think I think you probably liked gunslinger better than I did Yeah, I gave both books three stars. I think I Did not I definitely don't think I gave them three stars So sorry people. I will look up my good reads and tell you but Bethany's a nice raider. So she gave it less than three and I'm a mean raider Really, this is like I mean I gave it a Bethany for and I You're not wrong, which is kind of funny. Okay, so I I gave the gunslinger two stars and I gave a one from me. Yeah, I gave the drawing of the three one and a half Yeah, I mean I kind of wanted to lower my rating for drawing of the three and which we'll talk about why so Yeah, so I think I definitely was told I don't know if you were told or if he was just hearing from me that a lot of people are like Don't judge it by the gunslinger like the gunslinger like everyone agrees is like kind of and even to David King is kind of like Sorry guys So we were like told that would that should be rough a rough ride and yeah, I was things come after that Yes, I was expecting that I mean like the the introduction to the new version of the gunslinger Exactly like Stephen King base Okay Yeah, it's funny because I've had at least one person because I talked a little bit about this Drawing of the three in my mid month wrap up and I had one person say yeah I hated drawing of the three for the same reasons, but I love the other books. I Don't know that I have it in me I mean like without spoilers like based on how the drawing of the three ends We know that the thing that was so awful is not it can't be part of it anymore So at least that itself like other problems might arise, but that can't recur So we'll never have to see that again, which like that's good news. I Mean at least that part of it. I mean, I think the thing is is like I There's a lot we could talk about with this. I don't know where you want to start I don't I didn't find But he likes to put a lot of stuff explicitly on page that I don't enjoy reading and I'm like I'm like, I get it the guy's a creep Do I need to explicitly know like what happens in his pants when he does disturbing things? No, yes Not not particularly. Thanks. How else will you know? I felt like you've heard a few of the Witcher books, right like the first First one Like to me the gunslinger is not dissimilar from the what's the first one the The last wish which is like introducing you to the Witcher and it's a series of short stories That are kind of all over the place in the world of the Witcher that are kind of just here's an intro to who the Witcher is And here's some vignettes about the Witcher. So the gunslinger to me very much felt like when people talk about It and the way I experienced it was like well This is like that like this is just like a series of short stories Which is what it was it was published as short stories that were now bound up into the gunslinger And like I really know a lot of people say that They're not as down on the last wishes they are about the gunslinger But a lot of people will be like well the real Witcher series doesn't start like that's just like that's a short story It's like the real series starts, you know with what of elves, but I last wish is like if not my favorite one of my favorites Witcher books, so I really like these sort of vignettes introducing you to this character And I that's I mean that I like the last wish a lot better than the gunslinger But the gunslinger had that vibe to me where I liked getting kind of Snippets and snatches of this world It kept things kind of mysterious because it was just glimpses of things that remain kind of like well I guess I'm gonna learn more about that at some point presumably So the style of that really works for me actually like the format of it Yeah, I mean it makes a lot of sense you saying that because that is how it feels I guess the thing is with the gunslinger is there were a lot of things I didn't enjoy about it. Hence the two the two stars. Yeah, I'm fair But I was in I think the thing is and this was true with the drawing of the for three also is Conceptually, it's interesting, you know, like I think The world and the ideas and like what he's trying to do with it is interesting But I I'm not finding the experience of reading it to be particularly pleasant because like I Mean so many reasons but like I Found the experience of the gunslinger also more pleasant because we were in this Fantasy world for like for most for for all of it really For our world stuff that much I wouldn't have mind Well, there's a lot of things I minded about the real world stuff But like even if the things that we really objected to hadn't been in it Like being so much in our world would have already kind of annoyed me like even if it was executed Wonderfully, I've just been kind of like, yeah, but I don't really want to read about our world And then that said like it was there were other problems with it as well And interest and having like I enjoyed in the gunslinger The fact that we got glimpses of our world the fact that we know that our world is somehow connected or tied to this that I Don't mind at all. That's interesting and fascinating and like when it remains this kind of like glimpse of it We're as opposed to like chapter after chapter in the next book just literally being in New York City. You're like, okay Great Yeah, I hundred percent with you on that. Um, I just like wasn't I was like, okay, I don't really care Like I'm more interested in the fantasy world stuff Yeah, and again, like if the there's a lot of things we hate about drawing of three But again, like let's let's pretend everything's fine about the drawing of the three It's just way too much in New York if it had been like The bulk of it takes place in the fantasy world But then we did have you know, whole chapters like that take place in New York that have like brief kind of vignette that is there and Fully there but then like but still the bulk of the book is in the fantasy world that also would totally work for me But it was just it felt like the fantasy world now was literally just a framing device for being in New York the entire time I was like, why is the fantasy world literally like just like bookending this like it's not But in different like time periods. Yeah, I just I was like, I'm not Well, and that's the thing too is I'm also It's urban fantasy. I Know Yeah, it's like portal fantasy and it has a time travel element to it I think the thing is too is I'm also always a heart kind of a hard sell on time I mean time travel as a concept works better for me when it is like a portal type situation as opposed to a person climbing into a time machine or altering their own timeline like if It's always gonna be tricky to execute but like Being these little portals into time work slowly better for me. I was like a way to do that But yeah, no, I agree. I think I'm just like I don't Like I don't enjoy time travel stories that much usually and so I think it was just like one more thing that I was like, okay um but The There's I mean the drawing of the okay So like the drawing of the three has like particular things we can get into I would say overall across both books like Oh my god the hypersexualization of any female character that ever shows up on page like Can we not like every female character? It doesn't matter who they are and like the way he does it also is just kind of like It's gross gross It's gross. I mean, I guess like even though I don't know that's one of the things about dark tower that I think is what it's kind of praised for is that it's kind of genre defying Like it's kind of hard to put it in a box even like from just reading the first two like I don't know like it's a fantasy It's kind of grimdark. It's kind of horror. It's kind of portal fantasy. It's kind of urban fantasy. It's Yeah, it's a whole bunch of things. Yeah, so like yeah, that's kind of great I guess but like um when I've previously expressed like how Joe Abercrombie books are They're really they are really dark But I never feel like really gross and bogged down and I never feel really depressed by it Um and like there are grimdark books and like again I don't know that I would call the dark tower series a grimdark series but there are certainly grimdark elements and so the dark tower books are the kind of books where I do feel kind of gross and bogged down and I'm just like Okay Well, I mean and I think the difference is Joe Abercrombie or even other books that are less light like I like I would even say something like the poppy war by rf Kwong which is very dark like very heavy It doesn't feel Gross to me in the same way because there's a reason for it. You know, like I feel like it's more depressing than gross Yeah depressing sure, but it's not gross whereas this I'm like I'm like this just feels like you're doing it Just to like relish in the shock value and relish in the grossness of it Like I like I don't see that there's like a deeper reason You know like like you're just putting this there because you can't and it's also like because it's so constant Like if there's a particular scene here and there that you really lean into being Extremely gross to make a point and you don't even have to have like a bigger point than it being gross But you're really like highlighting this particular Situation or this particular person or this particular monster as being really gross And be like, okay Well, yeah that scene stands out as the gross one But when the whole book there's just kind of this like it's kind of like smog in la where it's just like always there Like there's just like every single page every single scene no matter what's going on There's just kind of like this undercurrent of gross. Yeah all the time Yeah, yeah, and there's like it's like a lot and I mean similarly like I don't necessarily And this was the hard thing for me reading it is that there were a lot of things where I was like Like why is that there and a lot of stuff where I'm like, you know If this was like one of a couple scenes in a book or like it it was really there to prove to like make a point It wouldn't bother me that much But it's just it's just constant like okay, we're gonna have a scene where this bad guy has a like You know has But what are we what are we calling it now? Like I don't know which particular thing you're I'm there's I know there's a new way people talk about it now and I can't think of the correct terminology. So excuse me but like Graphic images of children Like there's there's like people are using a different for like different word for this now But like like explicit images of children. Uh, so like we have one You know, we have like one bad guy who has like that hiding and then we have another one who's that like other creepy sexual Things with being violent and we've just you know, it's just like constant Like there's constantly somebody doing something gross and disturbing to an extreme level everywhere all the time and I'm like for that reason like it also it just It it even though it is gross it does lose impact So like I I'm never not grossed out But also I'm just like I'm bored with being grossed out if that makes sense like It's it's I can't say I'm desensitized to it because it's obviously still bothers me But at the same time I'm just like, oh, okay No, they're grossing great. Okay great on gross again. Okay, cool. Awesome Yeah, well, and also I'm like, okay Like you're hyper sexualizing female characters, which I have an issue with but also like the way you do it is gross and unrealistic to women's experiences Like I'm just like like there's so many things like this isn't even done Well, like even if you've got a hyper sexualized women like at least make it realistic Also, I mean, well, I know he wrote this earlier than that But I was going to say like I know you've only read eyes of the dragon Which is obviously nothing like this because he had her wrote a first kiss but I've read pet cemetery And I didn't feel that way about pet cemetery and pet cemetery has you know, really dark things in it and really, you know some I again, I would never use the word gross though for what goes on in pet cemetery. There's really disturbing things that happen um So like I absolutely was excited to read the dark tower if it was going to deliver on some like Lovecraftian disturbing like cosmic horror But instead it's just kind of like gross dudes being gross over deserts and time traveling I'm like Why I know Yeah And then with of course the drawing of the three we could talk about the like Oh my god. Oh great. So I guess maybe we should Yeah, I'm I mean, I'm definitely dead enough in the series. I have no desire to continue I feel like I mean like it's because it's such an iconic series that I Part of me is like just kind of curious enough, but I like also just can look it up on Wikipedia like But Yeah, and it's also because now people who have read the series can tell me but um In general for predominantly with Stephen King writes his stand-alones and when he writes those stand-alones He's kind of notorious for like struggling to stick the landing because he's a panther not a plotter So when it comes to like writing the ending of books He often kind of like you're like oh and the ending like didn't nail that So I because I just I have this sense that like nothing's gonna pay off like with dark tower and like I don't know if that's true I have no way to know that that's true But I just have this sense of like is this going anywhere does this actually pay off See I saw the movie and I liked the movie that which I know a lot of people who read the series didn't So that's actually also part of why I agreed to try reading the series I mean interest alba and matthew mcconnahare in the movie. So like that's just gonna be way more fun to me Oh man Yeah, I mean, I believe that the king grew over time. I'm sure he did. I mean he was young when he uh wrote this I just like I I don't know. I'm not sure I can well and especially with people saying that there's like other stuff I I just think like A gross scene like when we're talking about gross things. I don't Have an uh, I don't object to like disgusting monsters and to like horrendous torture going on or whatever there's just kind of like this like icky sexual Nist it's just like And that's what's gross Like I read a lot of grim dark that has a lot of like horrifying monsters and like people being mutilated And I'm just like whatever but like this like the weird sex stuff is gross. Yeah It I mean it is well and it's caught it's like so it's all the time and I'm like why like why like Can we just part like part pace yourself? You know, I don't know So like if people mean that the later books have like disturbing things happen Like depending on what that means if we mean disturbing like what drawing of the three has Uh, no, thank you Which we haven't even gotten into the meat of that Right So like I mean there's just like so many like flavors of gross and disturbing And like for the most part gross and disturbing things do not gross me out or disturb me But this again, and this wasn't something that is like Uh offending well, okay things were like offensive, but I don't mean like I'm not sitting here being like traumatized by these books I'm just kind of like It's just like it's not it's unpleasant I think because like I have read things that I think are more traumatizing. That's not how I felt about these I'm just like this is gross like this isn't fun for me.  Why am I reading it? Like it's Yeah It's interesting So yeah, I mean again, this is this is the kind of thing that makes me like, oh See for myself because then there's also that it's not even that I think it gets good I just always want to know what I think of something if that makes sense, you know So like I just want to know what my opinion of this series is and I won't know that unless I read I'm okay. Just like reading the wiki. I mean, honestly It's what I do with stuff that I'm curious about but know that I won't enjoy reading It's what I do like 50 shades of gray. I was like, I don't want to read this but I'm curious I love watching all of the like youtube content about 50 shades of gray. That's just an endless source of entertainment Yeah, yeah, I'm like, I'm never gonna want to read it or enjoy it But I wanted like I'm curious so like let me read somebody else's commentary on it I feel like I would I would do the same with this Well, so I mean we'll both share into drawing of the three But I remember like gunslinger bothered you a lot more than it bothered me So if there was anything in particular about gunslinger that stood out to you I mean, I think it was it wasn't I don't know that I would say I was bothered by it so much I just I mean I gave it two stars, which is kind of like it was okay. I mean it like Two stars to me means like it was like just this side of garbage garbage is one But like two is like there was something in there that was kind of okay, but for the most part it was garbage That's one and a half Two stars is like I didn't really like it like there were things that bothered me it was Like some things that were okay, but my overall didn't like it very much and that was kind of how I felt like I was into That ideas the world were kind of cool. There were moments that were interesting, but like I remember when I started reading drawing the three and I was like this is way worse and you were like I was like so far it's better Because I was I was already and you were like just wait and I was like oh Yeah, I was like not much longer later. I was like, oh, yeah, you were right. I hate this never mind This is not better Even though you just like the gunslinger Yeah No, but the gunslinger it I think it was just I was kind of bored with a lot of it or I was grossed out by the hypersexualization Like the ideas were interesting the characters were okay, but it like it was those things where I was just like I mean Yeah, but to me it was mostly like that I didn't find it Particularly compelling but because everyone said it was the worst one. I was like, I was like there's some stuff here They're like it's intriguing to me. Like yeah, it's not my favorite book ever But like I find myself here and there intrigued so it's fine. And if this is the worst one well, cool I went on to drawing of the three and I was like, oh, no Oh, no yeah I mean and honestly, I think I felt similarly like I liked it maybe a little bit less than you did But similarly I was like, okay, like I'm interested enough Depending on where this goes. Let's see, which is why we read book too Should we just like I mean we've been like tiptoeing around around around let's just talk about drawing of the three Okay, so Like we're introduced to a female black character Kind of two female black Okay Oh my gosh. Yeah, so I mean the hypersexualization again. Okay. Okay. Okay. So we have like two personalities, right? We have we have one she got on the head and lost her legs and now she has a split personality Oh, she got the split personality before she lost her legs But from a bump on the head Yeah, but it was like the trauma from the creepy dude. So I think it was like which Yeah, so childhood trauma apparently caused her to have a split personality uh Okay And Like I mean where Yeah, oh god, I feel like he thought he was saying something about racism This sounds very true to me. That's why I feel like the last few books could genuinely be good. Yeah, but like That's why I don't feel like I just really like was that necessary Was any of what because even then when it's resolved at the end And we get the kind of like how this comes together now to make sense at the end I was like, I frankly do not understand why this was necessary. No, like I this wasn't a thing where I was like That was horribly problematic. However, I do see that for the magic to work the way that she wanted it to It absolutely had to be this way as like weird as that is No at the end. I was like, this is not necessary I feel like okay the way it read to me Was that I guess he was saying something about like her integrating the two sides of her natural self Which like let's talk about that because like the two sides are what we have one one who's like Sweet and nice and wealthy and classy and fights for civil rights. And then we have the other who sounds like a complete person to me Look and then we have another person who is Poor and violent and hyper sexualized And is and way more of a stereotype Yes, I mean in Like the fact that in text on the book he like they recognize the fact the way like the dialect She uses is a stereotype of like blacks It was like never was how anyone ever really needs better to me that on page.  Yeah. Yeah, and it like leans hard into that and the fact that they're integrated at the end I'm like, so does this just mean that you think that like that is in fact a natural part of black women Like is that what we're taking away? We see like I don't think that he means it to mean that and he doesn't realize that that's basically what he is saying By doing that at the end or you're just like that's again We're like a lot of things like if you do something really problematic But like you are genuinely making like an important point And you know and you're consciously doing this and you're carefully doing this and you have had to incorporate some Problematic troubling things in order to do it. I'm totally gonna be there for that But here it just feels like somebody who's way out of their depth and they just opened up this box of things They should not be playing with and they just like did some stuff and you're like you don't even know what you're saying with that It's not that you said a bad thing on purpose. You don't even know what you're saying with that Oh, no. Oh, no. Oh, no. I know. I know. Like what are you doing? Well, and then like like like why Why are we using the n word so many times like? So many times. I mean this was okay. This was the 80s So yeah, like people probably thought a one-off was fine But like obviously he was trying to be edgy But like it was a lot and listening to the audiobook.  I was a little like, you know interesting insight into like how the times have changed like No, no, no, no No I mean like and I think the thing is too like now people probably more hesitant to do it at all But a book written in the 80s that has like one or two instances of the n word where it's used like sparingly I would be like, okay. I don't love it. But like I'll give it a pass But this was like, I mean it had to be like 20 or 30 times at least But again, like I just I don't understand why the having of a split personality was necessary No At all like if again and like here if it had been something like this like I still would have said Well, you could have written it differently But like if it had been a situation where like some magic thing is going to be happening and in order for this magic thing to happen like You know like only like an evil person can do this and so the reason she's able to do it is because When her evil personality takes over then she is now an evil, you know something like that We're like it's necessary for there to be two of her and the because of a magic thing And then I'd be like you could have written it differently But like I guess I get why she had to be Split like that But then it never like it was never anything like she just comes together at the end and she's just like not split anymore And I'm like was any of that necessary? No, it was well, okay. So this is what I think I think it was because he had an idea of like Oh Wouldn't it be clever if I do this thing where you think it's going to be three people? But two of them are one person Like that's how it came across to me, which is like kind of dumb But like I think that's what he was doing. I think that's the whole reason behind it Like I think he thought he was being I think he thought he was being oh, no With the prophecy, you know, I'm like I like that was what that was how I read it Well, she already faked us out with the third door where there wasn't a third person to collect Well, no, that was point. It was her like it was Like the third person was the fact that she had two personalities like she was and so the death was The you know the death of one of her person. I mean like the integration was the death of one of the people That was the whole thing. I think he thought he was being clever Even if none of the stuff about it had been offensive, even if it had been like fine, it would still be dumb that's like But she's like it's like the death of her other half like because they're one now like no, no, no But also I find it really surprising that Neither of us has ever heard anybody talk about this No, like no one talks about the racial issues of the series. I have heard people talk A little bit about it in some of like not many people, but I've heard a few people talk about it in some of his other books Um, but I've never heard anybody talk about this part of the I mean, oh, yeah, honestly, like I spent so much of drawing of the three just in a state of shock like this was What why what people what no one has said anything people are fine with this people are fine with this What? Yeah, well, it's been funny to me talk at like reviewing it and stuff so far because I've had a few people be like Oh, yeah I'm sure you I mean honestly like oh, man This is a little blow although you won't consider it a low low But it reminds me of some of the like answers to the riddles and agatar we're like Yeah, that sounds right. Yeah But so it's also like, I mean, I guess again, we're comparing new king to old king Um, but his pet cemetery is quite a bit later Um, and I just I mean I was that was pet cemetery is my first king and even though the ending I thought was really stupid Um, it was like right up until the end like it was only the very very like the the final kind of like Climactic ending scene the various pages that I thought were really stupid But like the whole rest of the book I thought the the like the way that he humanizes the characters like that make you really feel for the character and leads you down this path of like You can see why they would do the things they're doing and your heart is breaking for them And the horrific things that are happening are really genuinely horrific and like I just thought it was like very well written And so having like the writer that I came to know from pet cemetery Applying his talent to like the gunslinger, which I was imagining Again would be this kind of Lovecraftian cosmic horror mixed with a western and I was like super excited to see that Uh, that is not what we've been getting so far Um, so like I mean if by the end of dark tower we get pet cemetery king On board like that could genuinely be super good And I that's why I would want to read the rest of the series like if I can get a promise That like by the end of the series. He's good again To the first time or I don't know but yeah, I think it's so like what's interesting for me is I guess that's good to know like not that it's an excuse, but it's kind of an excuse It is also kind of funny that if that's true and then like I guess that explains the very detailed discussions of cocaine and the First door Oh my gosh Um, yeah, I think it's interesting because like the gunslinger was only my second time reading king My first dragon like I think your degree is well written. Oh, I loved it I mean, I think I love it more than a lot like I which is I mean, and I do plan to read more from him probably mostly his later stuff I just think reading this I'm like, yeah, I think other than like I feel like the eyes of the dragon is a one-off Um of earlier stuff that'll work for me. And I think like a lot of his Eyes of the dragon wasn't even that that early. It was early. It was like 87 Was it? Yeah. Okay. Well, it was good. It was good. It's very good So That's because also, I mean honestly after reading these two books. I can't I don't I don't know the gunslinger. No at all Like I feel like as as the super duper manga yikes on banks. Oh data slash data is I know her better than the gunslinger Yeah, I don't know. That's interesting. That's what I've seen but I I did also see some some micro spoilers that are like Still not ideal but like Definitely nothing close to Yeah Yeah, I don't know. It's it's just interesting because like I I haven't really read much from him. I think Well, and I I also haven't seen that many I've seen a couple adaptations of his books But not as many as a lot of people have well Shawshank redemption I haven't seen Shawshank. Oh, no That's the one that looked for the longest when I was like, I've never read any king and I've never seen a single king adaptation Then I was like, hang on wait No, I've seen Two that I can think of I feel like there's one I'm forgetting. Um, the green mile which like I it made me cry so much in high school It was great Start breaking, um, we have to wait one more book before we get to the book where we get to know the main character of the series And then I think when I was in college, I ended up seeing one. I don't even it was like Rose some it was like about a creepy house Called rose something. I don't even it was a long time ago. I was in college I mean like we literally read a book for blades and bodyservers called the widow of rose house And that was not by steven king. No, it wasn't that this was actually scary Uh, at least I thought it was scary in college. So Yeah, let's see like I mean this is Oh, yeah. No, I mean, yeah But about him feeling that he was empowering Odetta like I don't Disbelieve that he might have felt that that's what he was doing.  Like oh steven king Why did you think any of that was a good idea because yeah, I don't like present day steven king would think any of that was a good idea No, it was more like oh Stephen king you need more black friends That is the movie. Yes, it creeped me out in college so much I have not seen the shining because it looks terrifying and like I haven't seen it because I want to read it first I keep meaning to read it every halloween and then I know it This year for sure I I am such a wimp with movies in particular. I can read more horror now I used to think I hated horror until pretty like a couple years ago actually because books or movies Uh, all together because movies freak me out so much Horror movies are harder than horror books. Yeah. Yeah. Well, so that's what I'm discovering is I really like reading horror books And they don't you can't have a jump scare in a book. Yeah, except yeah, they don't bother me the same way. So Yeah Yes rose red it scared so much it scared me a lot to you, but I couldn't stop watching it Sound like a way Oh, I guess that's what's like again like what because yeah, I The book the drawing of the three is racist, but I don't think steven king like I don't think he is a great I don't know that book feeling like he is I come away from it feeling like This is the most like atrociously painfully misguided attempt at like Empowering like because it definitely even in the text like you like there are things in the text that like you can tell He thinks he's like writing a strong female character and you're like Oh, no Pretty much What did you think about the shootout at balasar's? Well, that was in the guns. Was that the thing? It's no, I think that's after eddie's brother is uh, he learns that he's been killed by the overdose And they have that shootout. Oh I don't know. Yes. I was fine. I didn't I don't remember having I didn't have a strong feeling. I know I don't think I really I was kind of like, okay I Yeah, and honestly like when we had those doors in the beginning before I knew where this would be going. I thought Then um eddie would be from new york, and that's our little dip into real world And then the other doors would be other places that are not Here Yeah, but it was all new york, and I was like, oh Which is like that like I think one of the most interesting parts of the gunslinger to me was The flashback part where we got like him like it was awful, but like I was very invested in the part where like He was growing up and dealing with the training and like the guy who died Like the when the gunslinger like the cook in the gunslinger. Yeah, like I think that was the part of the gunslinger eyes of the Dragony part. That's true. That's probably why I liked it I mean, I was still horrified by some of the stuff that happened But I was like that was the most interesting part of that booked for me So well again, like and there was and we kind of talked about this too like there There are parts of it that like I enjoy like Rowland's attempt to describe modern things and he doesn't have the vernacular for it But after a while even that got a little old, but like I mean It's some somewhat funny and also interesting because it's interesting when you are Intentionally othering something familiar and realizing how It makes you look at it a second time and realize how arbitrary it might be Or how strange it is because like when you don't know the name for or its purpose How like how would you look at this thing with fresh eyes when you don't know what it is? Like I like that kind of stuff. I like that too.  Oh, yeah. No, I think it's really interesting. I mean this is a completely unrelated genre But like I'm reading a a book that has come highly recommended the title is bizarre and so is The cover but it's actually pretty good. Um, which is I married a lizard man It's sci-fi it's sci-fi romance But what's interesting about it is it has this similar thing where it's like a human woman marrying this guy who's like a lizard man Who has a completely different culture and it's kind of funny like the miscommunications and like this like a sequel to what was that? movie about the lady with the fish Yeah The shape of water It I mean it's not but like I feel like if you Yeah, I feel like there's some similarities there. Although this is more light-hearted and it's set in space like on other planets and stuff uh Yeah, anyway, it's like when I see the cover. I'm like what but so like several people have been like no bethany You would really like this you should read it and so I'm like, okay, and I I am liking it. It's It's actually pretty good. It's why it's lizard cover No, I think the name is like designed to get people to click out of curiosity It's like we're gonna make you curious enough to click and then make you stay by the decent writing and characterization Like I think you know like but speaking of covers So like every cover that I've seen and there's multiple editions of dark tower But they all kind of look the same even though there's different ones and they all look really just kind of Nondescriptly there's the desert and maybe like a point of interest like the door for the drawing of the tree And I always felt like man Like you really don't have much to go off of from these covers Like I don't really have a sense of like the vibe or what the world is going to be like What the character's gonna be like like the covers will give you nothing and after having read two books I still feel like I've got nothing like the covers are absolutely accurate representation I do feel like it's just like a blank desert slate with a point of interest like the door like yes Goodness the chat is kind of funny. Yeah your brain on books this I think is uh also Interesting um that's even yeah like and and that's the thing is like I can tell Reading this that he was trying. You know, this was one of those cases of one. I'm like, oh, you're trying You're not getting your right.  But instead I'm just like, oh no Oh no Oh no Yeah, well, and then I'm like, why does no one talk about the fact that this is all like very cringy, you know Yeah um And it's also I mean I guess it's also because like I mean you and I especially as being content creators like We constantly hear about like who's the author that's in trouble for having like um And it'll like sometimes they get to the point where it's like literally one word in an entire book was like the wrong word to use And like they're cancelled for the day on twitter And then just like in the midst of like the death is kind of being the vibe of booktube And that's how you constantly like are like trained to feel and then you pick up a book like the drawing of the three And you're like, where is the mob for this one? Yeah Well, and it's interesting like because okay, I I mean it's interesting to me because there's still good play Exactly Also hi Beth um Yeah, well, it's funny to me too because I see the mob coming for other books that were written a while ago that has so like, you know Bridgerton got really big I mean, I guess I guess like I mean Stephen King himself has like shown his colors So like I guess there's the fact that anyone unless you live under a rock and don't know who Stephen King is like Anyone picking up drawing of the three knows who Stephen King is and knows where he stands on things So that's again the reason you read that book and you're just like I know that you're not racist. My god, though How how did you think this was fine? Yeah Yeah, I don't know. I just I just think it's interesting though because I think with what you said about the content creator thing I see people coming for older books a lot of times, but it's like Stephen King nobody I mean and and we're not even really coming for him exactly like shocked. I was just so shocked that I'm just like Can we talk about this? Well, because it's not too like I've never even seen somebody say that hey This is a book that has not aged well But like we still read it because it's part of the series and it's you know It's our main man Stephen King wrote it. So like you just kind of kind of just like Like yeah do it, but it's rough. I never heard a single peep about this from anybody At all which is funny because I had heard stuff about like it for instance Yeah, but yeah, again, like if I when you get to it, you're like, well, I've heard about this So I'm entirely unsurprised No, like It's like just like crickets. So I guess we're doing it now We're the by the way Like if you're gonna pick up the dark tower seriously, I was just that like star from one of the NBC It's like the more you know Oh man So, but I mean, yeah, because data and odetta become one at the end of this book We know we'll never ever have to deal with data on page Never again. So thank you for that. So if I continue with this series, which like I am curious I just don't know I had like decided I was gonna stop and then people keeping like, yeah Well, like I had someone in my comments being like, yeah, I hated that one too But I really liked these later books and I'm like, don't Well, I mean like and again like the fact that like if this was the only series this author had ever written And I had no way to judge what their writing was like Then I'd be like, I don't know if I'm gonna take your word for it But because like I have you know been witnessed to how good his writing is later Then like if people say, yeah, well, he wrote the series over a large span of years So that by the time you get to the end it's like way later in his like writing craft that like I absolutely believe that his writing craft is markedly different in the later books because he's also So like I don't doubt that like the books are wildly different later But like I don't know if I can like get there I don't know I feel like I need time. It's one of those things we're like in a year I might decide, you know what I'm gonna go back and try again and see But right now I'm like, I Did not enjoy it's like I don't want to wait and then have to reread these books because I forgot Just watch. I mean lianna just watch this live stream. You'll be fine That's right, why did I want to start this again? That's exactly like no one ever Yeah, it's it's strange to me because I do hear people talking about it. Like I know I'm sure I know it's way Where I mean, I don't know that that's something I there's stuff in there. I'm like, I don't think I can deal with that um Like I have some of his newer stuff on my tpr that I'm interested in reading but Yeah, with the shining with me For halloween. I don't know Also, also I I need I need a break Not this year I don't know. I'm nervous that like the shining would freak me out though Because like Yeah, but there's children. I don't know children or like I don't know. We'll see maybe I'll think about it. Not this year. I'm not doing that I have too much on my plate to do it in october. We're already supposed to be reading uh the second half of Like sordan citadel Yeah, and dune We're reading dune next month, but we could do sordan citadel in october. Maybe Yeah, sure. I just say yes to things now and then I just figure out where I'm going to get time for it later Likewise We're fine. Everything's fine. The waste cleanse is people's favorite. If you don't like that, I'd stop the series Is that number four? Which number is that? I don't know. Look it up. I guess I'm not sure I mean, that's I mean that's fair. That's definitely possible I feel like because I feel like people probably just like review the series as a whole that individual books, maybe I just don't feel like I could ever forget this once you get through the eight books log it gets better That is not encouraging I think there are only like six books. So I I don't think I think they're kidding Nightmares for a week beth what? Oh, no I can't I don't know if I can do it That's a lot I have to be really in the right mood for it But so like I don't know if you're familiar with the poem that inspired the dark tower in the first place No, because there's an old poem that's about like someone Trying to get to a dark tower And they're they're kind of a mysterious figure and they I don't think they ever make it to the dark tower But when I saw that and I saw how much of like The framework of that and it's literally the dark tower When I saw that I was like, so you didn't even come up with this Yes, really the long version of this poem Let me find it for I'm not like saying okay, so the wastelands is book three Okay, wizard and glasses book four But in the wizard and glasses the one where we get to know the main character, which is exciting Okay, inspired by the poem Child Rowland to the dark tower came So the name Rowland and the dark tower and all yeah, so When I saw that I was like, so then this is literally just the poem The re-telling of the poem Which I mean in some ways is kind of interesting right to like read something and be like, well What could that mean? What if it was the whole thing like that's cool But then you turned it into like this lengthy series Which is kind of funny Which like again like from comments and from what I've heard is that Stephen King didn't know where this was going Typical king Yeah, yeah, we got there in the end So It was interesting though like when I when I was googling, you know using keywords like Stephen King and racist To find out like has no one like in their reviews talked about the drawing of the three being racist Most of my hits were the horrible racist fans That were pissed that Idris Elba was cast as the gunslinger and I'm just like And then like most of that is like Stephen King coming out and calling them horrible For we're saying that about and I'm like, yeah, because Stephen King is not racist So like this is not what I was looking for but like, yeah, it's a good reminder that Stephen King is obviously not racist Yeah But This fans and then well then also I mean look Idris Elba Idris Elba probably made the gunslinger Halfway decent But all those fans that would have been angry that Idris Elba was cast would not have any problems with the drawing of three And I was like, I've answered my own question. I don't I know why this is Oh my gosh, I don't know Yeah, it's uh It's an interesting experience. I mean, it's like not dissimilar from the The black stormtrooper uproar Yeah, you're like magic wizards with laser swords in space. That's fine. Oh black black one forget it That makes no sense Yep That's the world we live in That's annoying, but yeah Well, this was it was it was interesting I I don't know. I don't know if I will continue Maybe one day I'll decide to give the Maybe you'll see how I do with the wastelands and if I'm horrified Then you'll know Actually, that's probably what I'll do if you read the wastelands and think it's great I will give it a try and if you don't like it that I'm like, nope. I'm happy to be Remaining done with the series Because like I can't help it. I'm like, I want to know what the dark tower is and I want to know What the man in black is I want to know But I'm like, but Stephen King doesn't even know Oh, I love this the dark tower with a woman Look ideally a black woman That would be Very Oh, that would that would actually be really interesting You could turn I mean because that's because it would also change all the sexual dynamics The idea of cramming nine books into 90 minutes does seem like a poor choice like no matter what the source material is Yeah, yeah fair um um Maybe go back and watch it We didn't we don't love it We think that we're glad that we know that Stephen King is not racist, but the book seems like great evidence to the contrary No The desert of the bank It's I think the thing is like in the gunslinger too There were moments where I was like this is this seems like a cool set piece that you're not doing much with like Like the underground tunnel with like the creepy train station thing. I was like This is so interesting, but we're doing nothing with it. So okay You know, yeah And then instead of further exploring any of those places or things We just went to new york in the next one. I was like What? Stuff that I was like, well, you certainly didn't really show me any of this properly But this was basically the trailer the gunslinger is just like the teaser trailer. Now we get to see new york city new york city In two types here magical Yeah Yeah, you faked it really well Well Again, that's I mean, I guess there's also the fact that Any writer who's that prolific they can't all be hits No He's written so many many books So like I know that like when he's at his best He can he can write well because I mean pet cemetery being my first Stephen King I was like The ending y'all aren't kidding. He's not good at endings but like the rest of this book like 97 percent of it was Very very good.  Like it's a lot um Unnecessity like it just became unnecessary and like she was even you know, I don't know it was it was Gratuitous that is the perfect word for it very gratuitous He has a lot of stinkers Oh, this is interesting with the white finance dude I mean Wait, but he's oh if it was a split personality American psycho mixed with like uh What's like with ned Flanders I mean someone in finance that would actually be really interesting That Danny that would that that would be an interesting story All those books should be made into write your own ending adventures Make it worse You know what I think this is the thing is like You could do something like this in a way that feel felt more intentional and was actually staying something important And I feel like I don't know if Steven is the person to do that ever I mean But also if there was a Stephen King that could do that it would be now Stephen King not then Stephen King Who was on top of living in an era where we were not that sensitive to things was himself not all all burners so Yeah, not a good time to be handling a delicate topic No Not at all Oh, man Yeah, I think I think that's basically the conclusion is I'm like I I am okay reading a decent amount of gross or unpleasant Stuff in books if I feel like it's warranted Yeah, or if I feel like again like there was a very like intentional purpose behind including this Yeah, as opposed to like Whatever that was right. I know which like not everybody feels that way like I think there are people who Just never want to see certain things in books and I don't like I don't feel that way Yeah, I can't think of anything that I would say I would want to never ever see in a book. It's always in how it's executed how it's handled and why it's there I think there are things that there are a couple of things that I never want to read in a book Like we're all different from saying it. She doesn't ever be in a book. Right. Yeah. Yeah, I don't yeah I don't like I get what you wouldn't want to read pet cemetery, but I don't think you object to the existence of pet cemetery It's just like being a parent of Children. Yeah, it was brutal and I don't have to when I don't intend to have children and it was brutal That's the thing is for me. It's mostly like there are certain things surrounding children that if they're graphic I'm like, I just know I know I just don't want to read it If you were telling me that you were interested in picking up pet cemetery and wanted to know what I thought I'd be like well Are you ready? Are you sure you want to do that? Yeah, but people are different like I don't object to that being in there And there are some parents who you know are fine reading that kind of stuff and I like I even know some people who will read books that That have hard things involving kids because they find it cathartic as a way of dealing with their own fears for their children Which is not how I Experience it, but I think that's valid If that's all I mean it surprises me that you Are as big a fan of broken earth as you are because that's not easy for a parent to read It's not it's That's true, but it I mean But broken earth is an example with a very intentional depiction of racism and classism and That all kind of ism And it's that's how you do it I mean nk jemisin can do no wrong in my book Pretty much Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean pet cemetery It made me sob, but it made me sob in a shocked way If that makes sense like there was it wasn't like when I'm reading like the light between oceans I'm just like this is so sad. I was I was driving while I was listening to pet cemetery and there was Like this isn't I'm going to be vague so it's not spoilery But there is like a horrific thing that happens But it kind of happens off screen And so now we've like moved past it and you know that it has happened But you haven't seen it happen and now unexpectedly it's being recapped for you in very graphic detail and like because we've already moved past it Like it's not in the middle of it happening And now it's just like suddenly being described to you like out of like there's no preparing for this It's just now being described to you and I was driving and it was like I was like my eyes were like bugging out of my head and there were tears streaming down my cheeks so I was just like That is horrifying But it wasn't like a it was just like a uh, I'm not I can't deal with this right now Oh my god. No So yeah, don't read it Bethany. No, I won't Not Not for me. No, uh, yeah It's yeah, that's interesting. I mean I'll read nk jemisin though I guess that's a thing too is I don't feel like she's ever Gratuitous with things You know, like things get graphic sometimes and can be sad and intense and heartbreaking Um, but I don't it doesn't mean as gratuitous, you know A fan favorite. I mean, okay I'm doing it. I'm doing it. Let me let me know how it goes Side if I want to try I don't know. I just like have not this hasn't been fun Yeah, no I mean, I had more fun with the gunslinger Because it was more like adventurous and more intriguing and there were just more things I was curious about and it felt more like a fantasy book Yeah, I mean, honestly, the thing is too is I think if we weren't Purposefully reading these together to talk about like I wouldn't have finished But now we can talk about it. So it's you know, it's fun Oh, yeah, I did notice him do things like that and like in general when authors do that There's like every time that happened Half of me hates it and half of me loves it because half of me I'm just like this is so cheap Like oh, I see what you're doing and like it's just oh, it's like it's such a cheap move But every time an author does that I'm just like, well now I really want to know and I'm worried and I'm concerned and it totally worked Oh, I hate you because it worked Like um, I go series that I've pushed you to start uh, the Sun Eater the empire of silence by Christopher Rockio there He doesn't do it constantly But because it is like, you know, this is the main character telling you his life story.  I've read a lot of books like that. I mean, I do think it's it's like Cheap yes, but also effective. Yeah. I don't I don't necessarily buy it. I do it too much. I'm just like enough of that But like we need to I I want to know now Yeah, I do think some writers do it in a tongue-in-cheek way. That's entertaining Most of the time it just it just makes me anxious because I'm like it's never a good thing It's never like I didn't realize at the time. How happy that memory. We it's never that Like I didn't know then that that would be the last time and you're just like I feel so stressed now I you know, I've seen a couple of romances do that but they do it in a way that's funny because it's like very low stakes It's only your love It's not even about the love like like I don't I can't even think of a good example, but it'll be something Like something silly like so I chose the red dress if only I had known what the rest of the night would bring Or like, you know, they're just doing it to be I don't know. Yeah So I guess what we've learned is that Stephen King can write. He just doesn't always Four shadow and kick in the shins. Yeah Yeah, it's like I think that's the thing is a lot of his stuff. I'm like Curious about I know some of it. I would hate reading So I'm just I I'm gonna have to figure out how to parse through like what of his stuff I would like and what of his stuff I would hate. There's only like hundreds to choose from Yeah, I think the only other thing I I own Is the institute which I'm very intrigued by the premise of I know not everybody would I have I want to read that one like I feel like I'm gonna like it because it's a premise And I really want to watch castle rock which I know is like inspired by the Stephen King universe Not by a particular book, but Yeah, so, you know We did the thing. We did it. We did the thing we we read the two books and we talked about High five Yeah It was not that it was like a lot of messaging on boxer like This is exactly the kind of thing that appeals to me is like From like as a student of this author as a student of genre. Let us watch the progress of this author over time But I need it is interesting that's part of what I enjoyed about reading 100,000 kingdoms after broken earth trilogy Which is the same thing state view where I was like, oh, okay. I see I see Where you were and where you are and like how you maybe got there. It's fun Especially if you really love an author. I don't know that I'm there with Stephen King yet, but uh, Also, like there's just no universe in which I would read everything that that man has published. It's too many It's too much sir. Stop it Also, there's too many things that I know I would despise Like it is never I'm never It is like this long Also that but like I know enough about it. Like I've read like I've seen enough detail I wish that Neil Gaiman had written a hundred books for me to read because I would be like A great world to live in where I have that much Neil Gaiman to chew through But also I just feel like the quality would suffer Gaiman wrote a hundred books But also the Neil Gaiman books that he has written they're all considerably shorter than it so Yes, very much quality over quantity with Neil Gaiman Uh, yeah, fifth season is a breath of fresh air. It's so good. Hey next month. I'm starting to read along. I'm rereading the series So I'm so excited. I've been wanting to reread them since I finished them two years ago I still need to read the second two books in the inheritance cycle and no inheritance trilogy I always see inheritance cycle, but that's the paolini books, right? Yes. Yeah Yeah, I still need to read those two Um, and I need to read the second book in the dream blood duology I just I was gonna read the dream brother The dream blood duology after the broken earth, but then I read a hundred thousand kingdoms Yeah, I was gonna keep going right away with that But then I found out that all three of the books are like stand-alones that are loosely connected in the same world And so then I kind of like lost Momentum, I guess but Yeah, I just love her books. I'll be sad when I'm finished reading Now that he's like what 70 something 80 Can you imagine going to like hotdog on a stick and seeing in wearing those little paper hats and the stripey uniform seeing Stephen King Whose face already is kind of the stuff of nightmares Oh man Yeah, that's what I want now Maybe he could do like a cameo in a movie doing something like that that would be it could be creepy They could like play it was like creepy, right great Have you read anything by joe hill? I have not I'm interested. I want to read at some point I want to read Nosferatu because it sounds intriguing and a lot of this year. I don't think you'd like it Maybe I shouldn't I mean, I don't it's not like one of the it's not like that cemetery. I'm like, oh my god, Bethany. Like you can't know I just like I don't think you'd like it. Yeah Fair enough. I've just I've seen so many people who are like, it's so good. I love it. And I'm like, well, I'm kind of interested It's good, but it's Glowing praise I mean, there are there are things about it. I think are really good but like as a whole It's it's it's okay Does he have a cameo in those movies? That's really interesting He's basically stanley I feel like a lot of authors have been doing that lately like where they've had cameos in their like shows on netflix or Yeah, was neil gayman in good omens? I think he had a cameo Oh, I know I mean, this is not on topic other than me wanting to talk about neil gayman But did you see the tweet announcement about them doing a season two of good omens?  How do you think the first book was written? Yeah, we're just gonna make it up. No, it's clearly a true story that actually happened I like neil gayman's like gentle trolling Because he's never like he's meant would neil gayman never get like a twitter fight It's like neil gayman and norah robber. It's are Great about this kind of stuff To out steven king.  Yeah I can see that I guess I was like that was the parts of joe of joe hill of uh No, it's brought to you there are parts that are just like I get it I really get it Okay, it's still going great. Okay Son And it is also really long like I feel like nosporatu would have been better if it was considerably shorter It just kind of just like goes on and on I mean the thing is too is like I've read books that are Very violent, um, even like in horror. Well, I mean like the only good indians for instance Um by steven graham jones, although So It's interesting. I think I heard mara talk about his latest book as literary horror, which is how I felt about only good indians Um, because it's this interesting thing where it's like this slow like literary pacing Punctuated by moments of like very intense gruesome violence Um, it's really it's interesting and it's smart and like he's doing a lot of stuff with it. I don't Like that and tell myself I was gonna read the last halloween, but I put like 50 books on my tdr for halloween time last year I was like, I'm not gonna read all of these. I'm gonna try We are reading a steven graham jones for halloween for blades and bottle servers Yeah, the final final girl still something about a final girl the last final girl Yeah, um And then I'm I have uh my hardest to change on my tbr, which is his new one coming out the end of the month But yeah, yeah, the only good indians was great. That's very good So that's the thing is like I can read like then there's some pretty There's some pretty gruesome stuff in that book like it's a lot But like there's a reason for it, you know, it's like it's doing something. It's purposeful I mean, yeah, that's almost like like I feel that way about pet cemetery Like even though it is horrific like I never felt and except for the end We're again, it felt stupid. But like for the majority of pet cemetery. I didn't feel like anything was like well This is just here for shock value.   You're not wrong. It's gross, but I'm not like horrified by it the way that I am about like more emotional things So let me tell you Stephen Graham Jones combines them Yeah, but I'm saying like that's when it's most effective But like authors like who think they're just like more blood and more And you're just like I just okay. I get it. Okay, whatever. It has to have an emotional core. Otherwise like Yeah, it's gross. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, I would say only good Indians does a good job of that of like it Like the emote because like the slow bits in between Are what build the characters and the emotion and the reason you should care about what's happening And so then when there is the stuff it's like Oh my god And that's why I'm like having having red pet cemetery Stephen King can definitely do that Which like if he's doing that by the end of dark tower, I am super here for it, but But is he it'll be a long long journey to the dark tower Well Oh man This is also unrelated and maybe I shouldn't say this here, but we we also need to talk about our plans for next year I feel like we also in a previous life drop Knowledge we kind of we haven't like talked in detail But we need to but I think we're running through more We have mentioned it before. Yeah. Yeah, I know I know people are I have some people who are like When are you going to announce things like oh you're closer to the end of the year? But now I'm like, oh, it's almost September. We should probably get on that Yeah, I can't believe it's the end of summer, but I can't believe it's spooky season. Yeah I'm excited All right, well any final thoughts about the dark tower or I think I think we pretty much covered it like Yeah, the king I'm glad we did this because it is one of those things where when I do a standalone review for a book like this I think some people who who like haven't followed me for a long period of time see my review and are like I'm like, oh you like SJW snowflake and I'm like, look I can read stuff. It's just this is not This is not it So as I said with most things it's not the thing. It's how it was executed right and I mean, I you know like To to be fair like I don't have a problem with being that way sometimes also But I just think it's funny with this in particular where I feel like I'm like, yeah It's it's not just that Yep And like I mean someone brought up blazing saddles earlier. I love blazing saddles I haven't seen it in such a long time, but I yeah Like I remember you're like, oh, this movie would never be made today But also like I'm fine with watching it now like for what it is I mean, I think there's a lot of stuff like that that has stuff. Well, I also think there's a lot of things I saw as a kid Then I saw as an adult and I was like, oh One of my favorite things of all time as you well know is peter pan and in particular disney I mean every form of peter pan, but like disney's peter pan is also a favorite and like I also don't disagree with like how How oof it is and like when the honest trailers was like going back and doing some disney classics And they did peter pan and they started going through the things that are wrong. They're like, oh Oh, make it stop make it stop go to starring go to starring It is I mean it no, it's yeah, yeah Yeah, it's it's I don't know. It's funny. I like I think what I'm thinking of is less Well Now that I think about it It's probably got some issues too, but they're like a movie we watched a lot growing up and thought was hilarious Something that's kind of funny is did you ever see the three amigos? No, I mean I've heard of it, but never So there's like a line in it that I mean I watched this as a kid And I never understood this line until I went back and saw it as an adult and I was like, oh Where there's like a girl who's supposed to be forced into a marriage with this guy who's like Not good And someone's preparing her for it and is like it's like tell me Do you know what foreplay is and she's like, no, she's like good neither. Just look what She's supposed to be And like I watched those and just all I was like, oh Okay, that's what that meant. I didn't I mean I it's just funny how when you like watch stuff as a kid, you don't I think I told you before about that album that um I we listened to a lot when I was a kid and that like I now appreciate very much as an adult but like When I was a kid because the entire well the album is called art of the body song the awd y Um, and so there's like 30 tracks on it and they're all like it's like a chamber music like and like nice singers singing all these old old old body songs and they all are you know They're very you know kind of formal sounding and like it's not very obvious with it It's a lot of double entendres and metaphors and a lot of you know And like when I was a kid, I just traveled a lot and I used to play music put on a princess dress And then I listened to it as an adult and I was like You know, like my parents were like confident that I had no idea Yeah, correct Well, it's funny like the nerdy okay, so like nerdy conservative me Uh part of why I think I got really into shakespeare in high like middle school high school was because Shakespeare is very body a lot at the time and like I you know, I grew up in like a super conservative It was like the marvel movies of his time. It was like popular Oh, yeah with lots of like innuendo and stuff, but what was funny was I so For the middle school and like the first half of high school. I went to like a private christian school I grew up in a conservative household and stuff and Um, and so Shakespeare was fun because number one I got to feel smart because I actually understood it and a lot of people didn't Like and it also felt like kind of taboo because like I understood the humor and I was like Oh, but this everyone thinks it's fine because it's Shakespeare. I don't know It's fancy and formal except it's not yeah It's like if you put it in modern language people would be like, oh Which is what my teachers often did they make us like pair off and they'd be like, okay Each of you take a scene and translate it into like regular speaking and they presented to the class. Yeah It's I think it's fun. He's funny He's funny You know how many people have gifted me shakespeare insults mugs like not different versions The I same exact Shakespeare insults mug. I think I have four and I have not purchased any of them But he has some swell insults he does it's true jokes, yeah, that's good So we went from the dark tower to the bar You know as one does Well, thanks for going on this journey with me by me This is fun and I shall leave you here and I must journey on solo to the dark tower Parting is such sweet sorrow All right, thanks everybody for hanging out with us and for not murdering us for not loving these books The murdering comes later, right? Have a good night


Welcome to Senate Education. It is Tuesday, February 8th at 132. We're going to start our work today by returning to S189, relating to the status of Holocaust education in public schools. We're then going to pick up our work on team mascots at round two, and then finish the day with miscellaneous changes to education law. And so with that, Ms. Garces, great to have you with us again. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me. Thank you. So last we left it, you were going to do a little digging, do a little work for us and come back and share some additional thoughts and information. So with that, the floor is yours. Great, thank you. Well, thank you Chair, champion and members of the committee, champion, I just changed your name to champion, sorry about that. And members of the committee for the opportunity to provide testimony on S189. My name is Amanda Garces and I am the Director of Policy Education Outreach for the Vermont Human Rights Commission. Today I want to start by saying again and acknowledging the need to teach about the Holocaust in our public schools and to thank the students who testify in this committee for their work in advancing this conversation. I also would like to acknowledge our Vermont educators and all the work they do for our kids and want to thank them for their efforts amid this pandemic. We can all agree that the Holocaust and other heart histories might be taught to our students and that it is in fact imperative to equip our students and communities with the right information and to have the tools to avoid harming our students and communities. With the current state of technology and information, we can spend countless of hours downloading lessons from the internet. I did that preparing for this. If we want to do this right, we need to offer our educators with the right tool so they can feel comfortable. In 2021, a teacher in D.C. was placed on leave after third graders were made to reenact episodes from the Holocaust. Third graders. I will now go on those details for the harm that was made, what's revolting. And when I submit my testimony, you can see the article in there. In 2020, the United Nations Educational Scientific and Cultural Organization UNESCO held a panel discussion titled Holocaust Education in Crisis. And I would like to draw a quote from Deborah Dwork, who is the founding director of the Center for the Study of the Holocaust Genocide and Crimes Against Humanity at the Graduate Center, CUNY. And she says, we're looking at the Holocaust education issue the wrong way around. We need to focus on the teachers, not the students and pupils. And we need to move from teacher training, workshops, day programs to teacher education. Teachers teach materials with which they are comfortable that they feel confident presenting. They teach what they learn when they were at college or university. Until colleges, universities routinely offer courses on the history of the Holocaust. Teachers will never get a robust education they need to be successful in the classroom. Regis Skidmore, another panelist who was also there, echoed that sentiment and said, background knowledge and sense of pedagogy around this complex history is lacking among teachers. There's an urgent need for teacher education. I recommend watching the recording of the event and I will also send that as a resource. But I brought those quotes because I think it's important to put it in the context that is conversation happening in many places, that this is a global conversation around teaching this history and where we need to place our resources. We need to do it right. What I'm recommending today is that we put the resources to make this successful. The students want to learn our history. We know that and they want to and they want it done right. Educators also want to teach our histories and they want the support to get the right tools. In 2020, a student group called Vermont Student Anti-Racism Network survey over 200 students about the state of their schools and how they teach about racism and other topics. It is very informative and I will also be submitting that and if you have not had any of those students in your committee, I strongly recommend that you invite them. As a matter of fact, they've worked with a house representative to introduce the H584, which proposes to create an anti-racism certification program for schools that recognize full of the history contributions and perspectives of ethnic and other groups consistent with the Act 1 work. In a similar vein of the students who wrote S181, the students want to learn and the students want to write. In addition to teaching the history of the Holocaust, as slavery and the genocide experienced by indigenous people, the students also learned teach about the resistance of those communities. Today I'm recommending and borrowing from the report that the Act 1 did last year, which was in the thought was to have a cohort of teachers to learn about these subjects. That part never went anywhere, but we had requested because we had been in conversation with some universities. But what I'm bringing today is, and I'm going to quote from that report, and I will also submit it as you can see it because we don't remember, but and we said in that report, the ultimate success of ethnic and special equity studies in Vermont public schools will depend on the commitment, intellectual acumen and creative energies of educators, support professional administrators, school boards, and concerned individuals in our local communities. With dedicated long-term professional guidance and resources from the agency of education and other state bodies, a school personnel will need professional training. A successful training program will collaborate with local groups. This is not part of that, but that is what I'm adding. With the expertise in the subject matter. In this case, we have the Vermont Holocaust Memorial and other leading national groups that are doing this work and that have developed cutting-edge information. We have, if we are talking about slavery, we have the Clemens Family Farm that developed their windows to the multicultural world curriculum for K through 12th grade, which is really amazing. Teachers have taken this training and we have the Abonacci Educators in our state who also do this training or who also work with educators. The objectives of the program will incorporate communities here and will have threefold objectives. A ground school personnel in a critical and comprehensive understanding of the history, pedagogy, academic and social context needed to make this a reality. So we think that this cannot just be a group, you know, five teachers taking but that whole districts and local communities can work together to make this happen. It can't be in a vacuum. We need to assist educators to attain proficiency and confidence in developing curricular lessons plans, sourcing the digital print and multimedia resources and in facilitating classroom instruction, student evaluations that develop in a community-based project. So these will go ahead in hand with thinking that it cannot be in a vacuum and that there's just so much information, so much that, you know, if you don't have enough support to get the right thing. And to train the cadres of educators and other school personnel. So we're imagining, you know, regional hubs of teachers that are willing to do that and that will fit in some of those standards that currently exist that can people can draw into develop this curriculum. So that's what we're bringing today. I think that this needs to be a multi-faceted approach where we are supporting the educators but also that, you know, we are collaborating with already the local expertise that we have in the Holocaust, specifically, but that if we, if we're going to do something like that that we should expand it to also talk about those hard histories because if not every year we're going to be coming back all the groups are going to be coming back. We want to learn these too so let's do it all at once. So you haven't submitted written testimony yet, correct? No, I will submit it with a lot of resources that I'm bringing in and who are the people that we know that are teaching some of this history. And so Ms. Garces, correct me if I'm wrong, I think my takeaway are two key points. Number one, what is being taught? How are our teachers being trained to teach this at the university level, at the college level? In other words, this would be an opportunity for us to check in with the state colleges, with UVM to understand as it relates to, you know, we can't control their, you know, curriculum per se in a way that, you know, the state does have a licensing piece, but to give us a sense of what's happening there. And then the second piece it sounds like, but please correct me if I'm wrong, you're endorsing our idea of adding funds to the agency of education, having somebody as a point person in the agency in a similar way that we tackle literacy, where that person can work with teachers, have training teachers, creating teachers to train teachers, more of a, you know, real approach to this topic and to this subject. Correct. Is there anything else that I'm missing in terms of takeaway? No, I think the last- Honestly, sometimes I just repeat what I really do want to hear, honestly, and that, so if I am missing something, please tell me. No, I would just add that it's really important to collaborate with the community when it comes to this. So whoever has the expertise in our community in Vermont, so that it is, you know, from the experience and that, because I think, you know, people that take on these jobs, we might know a lot, but also like it is not the expertise per se. So I think we need to draw from the expertise of the people who do this on a daily basis, who live this in a daily basis, who understand the concepts in a more dynamic way. So I guess my final question would be, could you help us draft some language if the committee decides to go this way? You know, this would be a full-time equivalent at the agency of education. We'd be putting in a request to look at, to support, first of all, some of the work that's being done there right now. We've heard and we've talked about this in terms of, I think, the way the committee is feeling that there are some staffing issues, that we need to staff up. We need to support the work that's being, you know, the people that are there and increase the kind of supports that exist. What might, if we were to get really specific, what might we want a full-time equivalent to actually do? In addition to Holocaust work, what are some of the other things around anti-racism, you know, what are the things that we can sort of incorporate into that position? Just something for you to think about. Yeah, I will be happy to work with someone in the agency, maybe to think through this, and also just, I think it is important to hear from the other pieces and, you know, like, I don't, like, this bill is specific to what the Holocaust, I want to honor that, but I also just, and so what I'm, why I'm bringing all these other perspectives to is because we will be going back and forth every year to this, and so this is real need to talk about slavery the right way, to talk about the Holocaust the right way, to talk about the genocide. So I think there is a great opportunity for us to bring this. Here's some hard histories we want our students to learn here, the tools they're going to need, and for you to put the money to support that work is super important. So, but I do want to honor the fact that this was a Holocaust bill and I absolutely bring that up. Yeah, no, we wouldn't be doing this if I think Senator Taranzini, I mean, I don't think it would be on our minds, like it is, Senator Persley, if you have any proposal. Yeah, thanks. Amanda, when you say we, you're talking about the Human Rights Commission or the Ethnic Studies Committee or both? All right, I am speaking up today on behalf of the Human Rights Commission, but a lot of my work on this draws from the actual working group. And I mean, like I said, the last year, the working group made a set of recommendations to kind of, you know, that this idea that we do need to have some cohort of teachers that could start learning some of the things that we'll be bringing up in our standards recommendations, but that's not, you know, so a lot of this is very aligned to a lot of the working group members, but I am not, you know, I haven't brought this up to them. So, but I think it is very aligned. And I'll be happy to, we actually have a meeting on the 17th, I'll be happy to get some feedback from them and send you something. 23 members. Great. It seems like, yeah, and it seems like, yeah, they're aligned and I know that work of that when working group continues. So this just seems like another way to lift up that work and make it stronger and so anything we can do to help. Thank you. Yes. And Ms. Garza, it would be helpful, I think, so what we're going to start working on is a letter to appropriations outlining, you know, why this is why this is important. And we would also want the Agency of Education, Secretary French and his team to, or at least Secretary French, to respond to this kind of, you know, what we would be really be doing in the agency. Historically, I think it's safe to say we've been told the agency's okay. We've got the supports that we need. But clearly, I for one believe that we need to improve those. So if you would be willing to give us a paragraph or two that might incorporate some of the things that you've heard today, that would be great. Yes. Yes. I plan to submit something tomorrow with more resources. Yeah, that's right. That's great. That's right. I went to a rabbit hole with all the resources out there. Good, good. Senator Taranzini, how are you feeling about this, this direction? This is something that is important to all of us, but you should be credited with bringing this issue in the way you did and raising it, which has continues to be raised in the press and in different communities. I know I've heard from people recently having read the Rutland Herald or Vermont Digger of some of the coursework that they did that was transformational and others are concerned, as we all are, that this issue isn't reaching young people like it is. Yeah. Well, thank you, Senator Kimme. I'm encouraged by all the healthy discussion we've had around the subject. And like you said, I've heard from people of all different walks of life, whether they're in education or students or retirees or people from different faith backgrounds. I also am really excited about this bill because we know how partisan, maybe not as much in Vermont, but we know how partisan politics is today. And folks from all different political parties are showing great excitement about this, and it's bringing us together for one common good. So I'm liking the direction we're going in, and I think it's really important that we keep going down this path. So you like the idea, if you could get it in the budget, full-time person at the agency to work on this and other issues related to it, if you will, you're okay with that. Yeah. I think to me, when this idea came to me, it's as simple as saying, okay, we want to figure out how do we get every history teacher in the state equipped and prepared to teach about this event, right? But as we've had more discussions and as this thing has evolved, it sounds like it's bigger than just saying to every high school principal, hey, make sure your history teachers are teaching this course work. Yeah. Yeah. I think we have a real opportunity here. And so I'll be eager to hear if the administration also supports it. But we've got Senator Terzini, we can always send up to the governor if need be. Yeah, I'll be sure to do that. All right. And we are recording, so we're going to hold you to that. I would certainly think, the governor, I'll be surprised if we get real pushback. I think this is the right way to go and continues the work that Ms. Grossis and so many other people have been working on. Other questions for Amanda comments? Okay. Okay. Any final comments from you, Ms. Grossis? No, I really appreciate the time and thank you for really thinking through this that we can do it right. Great. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Have a great day. You too. Thank you. Thank you. See you. Yep. Thank you. Bye. Bye.