think they say the definition of insanity is um isn't it when you keep doing the same thing over and over and you expect different results you do the same thing over and over but you expect the results of the same thing that you're doing to be changed Ravens don't put enough value into the offense don't put enough depth into the offense don't put enough anything into same scenario different week and the worst part about it what makes this kind of sad is that a lot of us Ravens fans don't even um don't even the games don't even phase us anymore like losses don't even phase us anymore they don't phase us they don't affect us mentally they don't affect us they don't drain us like they used to man now last week it was a little different because last week they actually the team rallied together or we're actually the defense and the special teams rallied together the offense continue to do their thing um I mean that yeah the offense continue to do their thing that they've been doing all season and they pulled they pulled together for what could have been a nice comeback win and I told y'all last week that game got me emotionally invested into it but then they lost they came up short so what do they do this week they don't do anything they don't do anything but anyway let me introduce myself before you get into this me I'm engraving vids this is my YouTube channel engraving vids and I'm a Ravens fan I'm a Ravens fan and even though I'm a Ravens fan and it's a struggle it's a struggle not to remain a fan but it's a struggle just watching this team struggle but even though I'm a Ravens fan we talk about football in here period period so if you're Ravens fan if you're Vikings fan make sure you subscribe to the channel turn your notifications on and leave a like on the video too it's 52 people up in here shout out to Ray Lewis it's 52 people in here but only 27 likes y'all make sure y'all click the thumbs up button man make sure y'all click the thumbs up button in the video leave a like on the video and like I say subscribe to the channel if you're new here stay here because if you like football it's a perfect place for you man but anyway shout out to the Vikings fans man shout out to my boy fly guy G Robby gaming shout out to him shout out to my boy Nate dog Wilbur shout out to my guy official mode was just a lot of Vikings fans out there it's a lot of it now this game this game this game this game this game it's not really even much to say because if you you go back to the game last week go back to the game two weeks before the last week not the Raiders game but the the Steelers game go back to that game if you go back to those games in those videos you could literally play the post game videos that we did together you could literally play those post game videos over again and you could apply them to every single game every single loss besides the Jaguars besides that one but all the losses and so far this season you can watch all of our post game videos and just play it over again because it's the same exact thing that's why this video and I'm gonna say this video ain't gonna be too long but I know we're probably gonna be here for a little while but it's the same stuff same stuff and like I said we we not even fazed a lot of us not even fazed that's the worst part usually after some of these losses we'd be like oh man that sucks we lost but we kind of almost expected this going in now really quick the offense yes the offense was putrid today and I did you see the title of video I said it ain't all flakos fault for this game because he ain't he had Mike Wilders for what a couple minutes he didn't have Merrick Macklin he didn't well I kind of want to say he didn't have Perryman but that almost may be a good thing for him but he didn't have Perryman so he didn't have his top three receivers and I put top three with an asterisk on there because Perryman is probably not one of the top three receivers on the team but he's one of the top three receivers on a depth chart so now Flacco he didn't he didn't have anything to work with yeah with Griff Whalen Chris Moore who else Michael Campanero he didn't have much to work with so this game I wouldn't even put this one this one not all on Flacco I mean they could have there could have been some better play calls too because you know we know Flacco the king of checkdowns that's his that's his thing he's a checkdown king so it's he guys he's he's at fault somewhat but of course Marty offensive coordinator he made some bad play calls throughout the game and we just the lack of depth the lack of quality on offense continues to kill this team continues to kill this team now you know what the worst part about it is again I don't mean I don't mean to repeat myself over and over again but you can you can go back and watch all the videos from our losses and it'll be the exact same thing in this game going in the halftime what was it nine to six I think I believe it was nine to six Vikings will up by three points so what does that mean everybody that means that the Ravens defense held the Vikings offense out of the end zone the Vikings offense was moving Ravens were bend but don't break so they held the Vikings offense out of the end zone meaning Vikings then score any touchdowns but what did the Ravens offense do they couldn't capitalize they couldn't capitalize now with this with this game not how do I explain this the best way the Ravens their offense they they had an excuse for this game now when I say like I said they're top three receivers within asterix the top two receivers the top three receivers on a tip chart were out pretty much all the game because Mike Wallace he left pretty quickly and he wanted to get back in but they didn't let them they said he had a concussion took them out maybe they were just saving him maybe the Ravens they just knew maybe they knew they like man maybe maybe they were thinking man maybe maybe Macklin is hurt a little more than we thought so maybe to not risk us losing Mike Wallace for next week against the Dolphins maybe we just gonna stash him away for this game yeah he took a big hit or whatever but we're gonna say he got a concussion we'll keep him out we're gonna keep him out because we don't even want to risk him not being able to play versus Miami because our receivers are bad enough even with him playing but we want to have him for Miami because we know the world is gonna be watching because it's on Thursday night football and we don't get we don't want to get so embarrassed in front of the world so we're gonna keep him out for this game so it's so Mike Wallace was out Rashad Payman Macklin they were out and the offense just couldn't do anything they couldn't do anything Eric Guetto ended up getting hurt Tony Jefferson ended up getting the life shook out of him it's just been bad man it's just been bad but like I said even even with me giving the offense an excuse this game it's not an excuse to the front office it's not an excuse to the front office because as a front office you're supposed to prepare for situations like these if you lose your top guy that's why you need to have depth you need to have quality depth not just depth of quality depth Griff Wayland I mean Chris Moore no Matthews either it's tough you are top three receivers this game Chris Moore Michael Campanero and Griff Wayland Griff Wayland Griff Wayland whenever Justin Tucker is scoring all your points for your team it's never a good thing ever ever good never a good thing I had high hopes for this season I really did when we signed Jeremy Macklin and still kept Mike Wallace Perry Mendez said he had been catching everything in OTA's I had high hopes for this season I had high hopes but then we got been watching back Nick Boyle I seen little flashes of him over the past years he got some nice hands Terrence West was coming back Buck Allen I wasn't sure about I had high hopes I had high hopes for this season the offensive line they it was like we were getting some our offensive line was gonna be solid man it was gonna be solid it was gonna be solid but then injuries happen but with the injuries that happen is still injuries were not an excuse for how poor the offense has been they were not an excuse yeah we lost yonder I know that yeah we lost Sarah Goose we lost Alex Lewis we lost John Urschel he retired but I know what happened to the offensive line injury wise and retirement wise I understand that I see it I saw it but that's no excuse appreciate that they talk Wilbur he said game of field goes pretty much if only you had any of your starting receivers hope your team can pull themselves together I don't know if that's gonna happen this it's like the hope that we had for this season well me I speak for myself I don't know if you guys feel the same way you can let me know if you agree or not but it's like the hope that we have for this season just keeps this it was it was up here used to be up here then it went down let's go down down down down down it's not all lost yet I mean we're three and four but remember at one point we were two and one one point we were three and three and another point with three and four now so again it's not over till it's over but it's gonna be over sooner than later if this offense does not pull it together it's not it's not gonna work now y'all make sure y'all leave a like on the video it's 86 people in here but only 56 likes y'all make sure y'all click the thumbs up button Joe Flacco the one said man did he say this we suck man this is so sad and makes me mad and we had garbage play we ain't gonna win for the for the red for the rear of the season the Ron said the season is over let me see what did blockbusters say he said it's all Flacco fault not this game he hasn't played good this season but this game it's ain't all on him not at all the potential is there no execution potential I don't I don't say it can still in the season 10 and 4 they can't it's possible but we're really 10 is 10 in a 10 12 and 4 it's possible numbers wise as possible with this offense I don't think so we're gonna beat the dolphins we just might Harry say whether it's overrated I think you said that earlier we're whether I don't I don't feel like he's over over rate because he was a great signing last year I was happy when we signed him I was surprised when we signed him but he showed that he was worth the signing last year he was great for us last year great this year it ain't been the same Tony Jefferson he's been flip floppy to say the least he's been flip floppy yeah the defense is overrated there we go the defense is overrated that's a great point right there perfect way to put it the defense as a whole is overrated we got some nice players now yeah uh Jason say peanut and CJ doing doing the thing CJ Moley yeah they solid Jimmy Smith's for the most part been playing solid Marlon Humphrey Brandon Carr but um losing to vine young was big big big Brandon Williams came back we still got ran all over I thought it's gonna be a little better wasn't all good um he did but he was making his impact in the beginning of the game he was making his impact but then I guess the Vikings were like you know what this Brandon Williams guy we ain't worried about him let's keep running let's keep running um yeah teams been picking on whip they've been going at it they've been going at whip uh yeah jaylen hill did come in do some things but um I didn't oh I he said he didn't know CJ Moley was leading tackle in the NFL well um he is but that's not a it's not a good stat to have reason being because that means your defense is on the field a whole lot a whole lot offense has to be addressed next year it's your point you're right you're right it is exactly it is the same stuff every year we have these same conversations every year every year about offense about offense we had the same conversations every year every year same conversations same conversations um see you heard that even even Carter's frustrated and he ain't even watching this my son has not seen a winning season from Baltimore yet so I'm still hoping this season can be won but I don't see it happening right now um play calling this bad day to get rid of uh some people the offense and the defense well offense I mean you know you know marty moan hag um I know we got a by week coming up in a couple weeks a couple weeks I believe moan hag is on a hot seat but I believe this game saves him it gives it buys him more time I believe it buys him more time now let me explain that some of y'all might be like engraving what are you talking about why would this game well offense didn't perform why would this game buy our offensive coordinator more time and he was making so many bad play calls I don't understand that well let me explain it to you with this game with the the top three receivers being out the injuries that's the only reason that I feel like it buys him more time especially with the buy week coming up with the buy week coming up I believe it buys him more time because um um the injuries to the the top three receivers so that played a big part I mean I don't I don't think it played a huge part in this game because even with our top three receivers the offense has still been pretty much the same as it was today to be honest um but I think if if if if he's on a hot seat which I do believe he is but I don't know what that would really do if he is on a hot seat um I believe his seat this game pulls down his seat a little bit because we didn't have our top three receivers but also but I believe if they're gonna fire somebody they would do it they would fire him right before the buy week but we started three and four last year too well there it goes man there it goes um yeah it's a mix of the players it's a mix of the play costs a mix of a lot of stuff it's the front office it's it's a lot of stuff it's a lot of stuff and they they just simply you you can't I think some people mentioned it before and in a lot of the streams they mentioned the same thing which is very true um I think Meach might have mentioned it before I know somebody else mentioned it before too with how Ozzie Newsom he's so old school he's so old school and he's trying to do he's he's trying to do things old school style with defense defense defense defense defense defense and like they mentioned they mentioned that it's a pass in league surpassed yeah he said tell Carter we can feel yeah Carter that was he was going through it too he must have been thinking about the disoffense but he sound like Carter just saw the highlights yeah man defense women championship is out the window yes I know Broncos their defense won him that championship a couple years ago but that's them that's them we ain't Broncos we're not that Broncos team we're not that Broncos defense that's not that's not us Flacco yeah exactly Flacco did win the Super Bowl he played and the defense did play a big part too now but Flacco he did his thing man he was great in the playoffs but he's always great in the playoffs but again same thing we've been talking about same conversation same thing we've been talking about since last year too if we don't get great playing by the offense in the regular season it won't be no playoffs it won't be no playoffs fifth and pass defense 30th and run defense who would have thought who would have thought who would have thought those numbers would be like that for Baltimore and again I don't want to shout out to the Vikings fans too because I don't want to I don't want to take anything away from them I know my boy G rod he was telling me earlier and you can see it on Twitter he was like man he's like we got we got such a good he said we got a good defense and we've been doing this all year except versus the Steelers he said the Steelers game was the only game where the Vikings defense ain't show out but I told him I said hey if you only understood how bad this Ravens offense is they make everybody they make any defense look great they make any defense look legendary excuse me I said legendary they make any defense look legendary because of how bad they are because of how bad they are the the Ravens did and maybe you know what somebody mentioned Chris Jackson he just said Ravens can't draft any offensive players maybe it just may be time maybe it just may be time maybe um since Ozzie Newsom maybe so very stuck in his ways I don't know maybe it might be time for him to give it up it might be because the drafts they haven't been really hitting on the drafts much they haven't been hitting Dave Eric DeCosta sitting there waiting in the wings it could be time I don't know it could be time could be time um now yeah the quarterback is a problem but it's just offense as a whole too offense as a whole it's tough we don't we have zero playmakers on offense I see Lawler said or a playmaking tight end we have zero playmakers period on offense we don't have any playmakers what DDJ say I missed it let me see let me see no I don't see it man oh he said injuries have been killing us since 2013 yeah yeah that's a long time man I can't wait till Alex Lewis and Martianna come back we won't have to deal with that bum James Hurst again well I mean it's more than that but we we don't have any we don't have any explosiveness we don't have any uh any attitude we don't have any just downright nastiness on offense we don't have that yeah he said need a QB that can read defenses yeah that too Browns loss really what happened oh boy come on Browns that's tough it's like just when you think just when you think you got it so bad it's always somebody that got it worse and the Browns is that worse it's hard when you deal with injuries I know it's a different sport but as a meds fan I had high expectations and when the injuries happen season over Raven season looking similar yes they have it has been looking pretty nasty um they're looking very nasty uh but the thing with the injuries I didn't know excuse for them they were pretty healthy I mean they had a lot of injuries last year too but they were their main guys were healthy they were healthy um you don't think Ozzy Newsom deserves blame the reason that he deserves a part of the blame is because he's the one putting these teams together and with him yeah he'll put together a good defense or whatever but defense ain't everything he got to realize that we need offensive playmakers so Ozzy Newsom is the guy that that picks these guys to draft they they're the ones that go through all the different scouts and whatever blah blah blah and he deserves a part of that blame too because he puts these teams together the teams we watch every Sunday that's him putting them putting them together him and hardball they do that together but um uh what am I gonna say so yeah him with the draft and just building the team it takes a lot and he just hasn't been hitting apparently an offense doesn't exist to Ozzy yet to Zilla um Ozzy doesn't deserve blame so I mean he definitely deserves a huge part of the blame huge part not gonna lie I had to stop watching oh baseball press he said not gonna lie I had to stop watching dump off king Joe Flacco I get your Y receiving an injured but you have to trust your guys downfield and throw them the ball tough man CJ what's up man he said Browns can't catch a break losing an overtime by a field goal yeah man it's tough say about to start watching the CFL people love the fact that the Ravens went all defensive in the draft yeah oh AK say he fell asleep during the game wow that's tough man that's tough um what's up Judeen um Ozzy Newsom can't predict 69 players on the server over three years no he can't but again the offense has they don't have any depth they don't have any quality depth on offense they don't have what do they have on offense even if everybody would have been healthy what do they have on offense what are they they got Danny say they got Danny Woodhead they got him they got Jerry Macklin they got Bashar Paramount in the first round um who else Crockett Gilmore I mean Nick Boyd where the they brought him Ben Watson uh Dan Waller um but it just ain't stuff ain't been clicking man it ain't been clicking but Kenneth Dixon he was that was he was a nice running back but I mean oh Carson Promo broke he broke his arm but it's like or Ravens defense ain't allowed a quarterback to pass for 300 yards in the game it doesn't seem like that but I that's interesting but I mean they haven't been hitting on offense man Jacob said you're in the NFL to produce Ravens had Mike Wallace Perry minute first round picking Jeremy Macklin and Joe Flacco you get paid all this money to lose and suck come on bottom line we need to start with the patchwork we plug in holes and then other problems arise oh rice I love that I love that and though see the patchwork has worked for them with receivers when they get a nasty receiver Macklin ain't nasty he got some hands got some good hands he ain't been nasty though um and apparently he's been injury prone for us so far um he like when we got Steve Succeed and we had Steve Succeed and Tory Smith perfect combo we had Anquan Bowden and Tory Smith perfect combo perfect combo um and it worked so well because we had to receive it that was underneath but also there's some stuff with the deep passes then we had Tory Smith going for the deep off but now the Cardinals got it they got quarterback injuries too yeah 2012 is long gone it's long gone long gone uh QB uh no he said cornerbacks need to stay with their receivers lockdown we need to pass rush we need to pass the rush pressure the quarterback we need pass rush and pressure quarterback more sacks big guy stopping to run offense needs to protect the QB give QB time open up space we ain't gonna play makers on offense though man we ain't gonna play makers on offense why Ravens let top offensive prospects go off their board to draft defense first I'm picking bingles for upsetting that game I feel like Steelers are the better team but I feel like Steelers do for upset so I go with bingles um can Ravens offense turn things around at this point we just hope every week that they turn things around but we seem to still get the same old story and that's why again we become immune to these losses Ravens lose and we like okay what's new what's new what's new why does everyone say QB in the draft I would say that too I would agree with that I would love for them to draft the QB get somebody ready man I know Flacco can't go he can't go he ain't going anywhere right now because of that contract but I would love for them to get a QB I would love for them to even bench Flacco and um it probably ain't gonna happen this year but maybe next year if they just retool this entire offense and give somebody else a shot even if you know what since I don't know how that's gonna work though I mean I would because Flacco he he got all the ability all the physical ability but the mental don't be there a lot of the times it's not there a lot of the times and he just makes silly mistakes um he just sometimes he just he'll stare down his receiver sometimes he'll just make throws where you'll be like Flacco what are you doing and every throw from a quarterback is not gonna be their best throw I know that I understand that so I'm not saying every throw from Flacco is gonna be perfect not every throw from every quarterback is gonna be perfect understandable but when you continue to make the same mistakes over and over when it seems like after 10 years you're not progressing like what's up with that what's up with that all right Jason see you next time man it's so simple why we can't win Joe can't make any plays without help because he's just not good enough and all of our help is injured that's it there's nothing to do about it Malik said he plays drunk I really have a feeling this Steelers vs. Bingo's game is gonna be described in one word violence I'm sure there'll be a lot more offense than all games so anyway that's that um again big shout out to the Vikings fans man big shout out to the Vikings fans Lamar Jackson to the Ravens hub we'll see we can use some explosiveness we can use something man because our offense is literally dead even with our top three receivers our offense is dead Panda says since Flacco Superbowl and playoff run he's only been crashing or except for the other playoff after that in 2014 you're both the Steelers and Bingo's looks today I mean it don't I feel like it doesn't even matter like before um I didn't even I didn't even mess with my fantasy team I just got a fantasy update I didn't even adjust anybody I still got Jerry Macklin in my starting lineup but um with with Steelers and Bingo's and even Brown's too it's like you want you before I would be like oh man I hope they lose I hope they lose I hope they lose but now it's like I don't even care because Ravens don't even deserve to win they don't deserve anything in their division they don't deserve it I would love for them to win in their division but they don't deserve it they don't deserve it so I mean is what it is man but I'm gonna go ahead and get off it in the open anyway this game is over um there's the season over too I don't know yet me I don't know yet um it's rough it's rough oh Rashid said the Vikings aren't as good as their record and neither are the Ravens even at three and four they are not as good as their record is so yeah man yeah we talking about the draft the season yeah you're right the season isn't over but we have to talk about the draft because we want to we want to know what they're gonna address and we want to talk about what it is what needs to be addressed it's not technically over but with this offense the season may be over man so yeah and yeah we're gonna talk about the draft the draft is gonna get brought up every single post game stream because we gotta we gotta look to the future with the offense because the present offense is terrible it's terrible it is terrible it's bad it's really bad it's bad man oh you talking about the biscotti thing when he was talking about um uh about firing everybody and stuff and he can't do that and uh about the fans and stuff I did read that it was it was a good article it was a good article I liked it but and he was talking about oh John people people so quick to think about the short term how we missed the playoffs uh the past couple years and um and he was like if we missed the playoffs this year people will only be looking at the short term but they won't realize that uh John Harbaugh made the playoffs six out of his 10 years here and that's a 60 percent rate so that's pretty good I'm like yeah that's true but it's not about all the past playoffs it's not about that anymore that's old news man but it's what it is someone needs to call Flacco out I would love that yeah that was it was a good article it was a really good article real good article I loved it so yeah anyway thoughts on Harbaugh after this season or the next couple of seasons no I said last year I thought he was gonna get fired I thought last year he they that should have been it I thought last year he was gonna be out of there I really did but it didn't happen um then this year I think he's definitely on a hot seat even with them giving him that extension I think he's still on a hot seat uh Flacco annoys me he talks he talks like he's lying in the interviews he sounds like a guy who doesn't like football and he was pretending he does you never know you never know never know Connor said I'm done with all you Flacco haters okay who you got Falcons of pads I say Falcons in the upset Ravens offense is dry no type of dynamic plays no type of anything oh he said after that hundred meal he got no sense of urgency it's like it's so sad that um they wait to do that no huddle offense they wait to do that when the game is over I don't know if y'all remember remember um in the playoffs in the Super Bowl year in the playoffs in the game against New England the first half shout out to you and the first half of the game against New England um the Ravens I think the score was like it was a close game it was still close um but the first half they were running their regular offense they had a couple players here in there whatever they were doing their thing but they weren't doing anything explosive anything crazy um so it was a close game at halftime so it didn't come in at a halftime when Ravens got the ball um and this is coming out of halftime so this was in the third quarter they started doing a no huddle they started doing up tempo offense and I was like wow I can't believe it they um they were doing a no huddle and they were moving the ball they actually put they actually put um some spark to the offense they actually had some life they actually had some life and they actually had a sense of urgency before they were down at the end of the game before they were getting whipped by a team at the end of the game they had a sense of urgency while the game was still going on while there was still a chance in the game while just everything was still going they actually had a sense of urgency and I missed that I missed that uh and I felt highlights said uh oh he's a vikings fan they suck how how vikings be yeah congratulations the vikings um again congratulations to the vikings congrats on getting a win that's not I definitely if if you invite I'm not sure if you're a vikings fan or not but if if you are I wouldn't put too much stock into that win because Ravens are not a very good team especially offense wise but a win is a win a win is a win so y'all got it congratulations again man this sport I am a vikings fan it's a cool man yeah man but yeah don't I wouldn't I mean you can't really get high and mighty off anyone but definitely not against the Ravens this year because that offense is just that make it throw up um but yeah congrats on the win man congrats on the win um you said I swear no NFL fans are humble these days it's it's um you just gotta find it it's um do I think we're gonna win on Thursday I don't know um because all these records seem to be going and going to trash because remember like I was talking about it earlier the uh the Flacco always shows up against the offense but who knows what's gonna happen man they are a good team offensively oh you lost to me with that one the no the the the reds I mean I was about to say the Redskins the Ravens are definitely not a good team offensively yeah oh my boy Nick dog he's saying no kidding the boy Nick dog is a vikings fan so shout out to him man shout out to my guy man shout out to my guy Nate dog man um oh the dolphins won they came back oh wow I didn't know that I didn't even realize so oh the game Harry that I was talking about was uh when we were in no huddle in the third quarter was in the playoff game against the Patriots in the Super Bowl year so 2012 so back then so what I was saying was that they actually showed a sense of urgency before the game was over before fourth quarter before two minutes left in the fourth quarter when they're trying to come back they actually showed a sense of urgency way before the game was over they have Joe Flacco and a lot more Trey Wayne's had a hard time covering his guy you sure I don't know man they ain't got much I don't think you're too familiar with Flacco which is fine which is fine I don't think you're too familiar with this whole Ravens offense though if you think that they uh that they're good they uh yeah sad thing is we haven't even lost our games by much yeah besides the Jaguars game you're right we've been in every single game every single game every single game Alan said when Flacco has time in a pocket he makes plays but they don't have an old line the offensive line what I've said every week the offense line they're definitely not the best in the world definitely not the best but they definitely not the worst either they're definitely not the worst either so Flacco had his time now and yeah he does get pushed around sometimes does get hit yeah he does but it ain't like every single time he's getting hit but yeah you want to you want to have more time you want to be able to get into a rhythm so yeah the injuries on the offensive line didn't help but yeah we'll see man oh Vante's perfect kicked the stealers fullback oh he's starting already wait a minute man and it felt highlights if you want to that's fine if you want to be my guest you don't have to definitely not a necessity that's up to you guess Flacco getting hit oh this Flacco getting no interceptions didn't help oh yeah well because that's how it was for the Raiders game he got no picks and we won but this year I mean not this year this game he got no picks and even threw a touchdown but we lost so don't touch that with no time left at the end of the game shout out to Ryan Jensen they said that Ryan Jensen on the on the last player of the game right before the last player of the game he was fighting some Vikings player and it ended up costing the team some time off the clock so he is what it is man he is what it is but anyway appreciate y'all thank you for coming through thank you everybody for coming through thank you um appreciate y'all everybody again for the people that's new here vikings fans congrats on your win y'all got it y'all earned it y'all deserved it y'all whipped us the game probably shouldn't even been that close um but I appreciate y'all coming through what's up Hunter um thank you thank you thank you appreciate y'all thank you um team keep it clean Ravens fans we same thing man but anyway y'all make sure if you're new here subscribe to the YouTube channel if you're old here stay subscribed turn your notifications on so you never miss a live stream because we're gonna be having some more live streams on Malik Foster said in the Woodrum next week oh Katie King said it's a must win next week or you should have told them that when they played the Steelers because that was a must win but yeah appreciate it he said he said engraving keep it clean Ravens keep it dirty oh the Ravens make they make it they make it hard oh he he said just switch to Steelers no I can't do that man but yeah Joe Flacco's at least had to be in a Ravens fan used to be fun now it sucks it's tough man it's tough it's tough but anyway appreciate y'all again make sure you leave a like on the video if you haven't already um and if you want you can follow me on twitter instagram and snapchat everything is engraving videos just like this youtube channel so again we had a lot of fun here as we always do I wish it could have been a little more fun because after a win it would have been a little more fun but unfortunately with this offense they don't make it fun but again like I said like we said before three and four season not over it seems like it is it really seems like it is seems like the season is done it seems like it's not it seems like the season is done but it's technically not it's technically not over with three and four they could actually go 12 and four it doesn't sound like it it doesn't seem like it and it's probably not gonna happen but it ain't over yet it ain't over until it's over so we'll see we'll see anyway appreciate y'all man I'm going man y'all have a well y'all have a good day but I'll I'll see you all later on today


What's up everybody, welcome back to the channel. Today we're gonna do a quick choke comparison. I'm gonna shoot three different chokes today out of the ammo that I know that I'm gonna be shooting this year. I'm gonna be shooting heavy metal long range and I'm gonna be comparing my factory full choke, a pattern master code black duck and a kicks high flyer full choke. Let's go. So I'm doing the test at 30 yards and like I said, I'm shooting heavy metal. This right here is three inch fore shot and I'm gonna shoot three different shots at our target down there and see what kind of difference we get. All right, I'm gonna go change these targets out and bring it back to see what it looks like. So this is my factory full choke at 30 yards. Looks pretty good. It's gonna be hard to beat that one, but let's see. All right, now I'm putting the kicks high flyer full choke in and I'm gonna shoot another shell of heavy metal, three inch fore shot at 30 yards. That looks pretty good too. I'm gonna take one more target and shoot one more time with the other choke. So this was the kicks high flyer choke at 30 yards. That looks pretty good too. We're gonna shoot one more shot and then we'll count the holes and give a good comparison.  I don't think I've ever shot this choke before. All right, here we go. Let's go check it out. So here's the pattern master code black at 30. Looks pretty good, but I don't know. It might not look as good as the kicks or that factory full. Let's go count the BBs and we'll find out. All right, so here's all the targets lined out. Take a guess which one you think is which. We haven't counted them yet. We're just looking at them. You can kind of tell which one looks the best, but comment below before it gets to the count which one you think is which. So I just did a quick little count of BBs that actually hit the duck on the paper. I understand this is a small target, it's 12 by 18. It's not a 30 by 30, like if you were actually gonna pattern. I don't really care about that. I know that I'm shooting this ammo. I was trying to do a choke comparison. The count was 35 for the pattern master. It was 53 for my factory full choke. It was 74 for the kicks high flyer full choke. So I'm not extremely concerned with count on the duck. I am looking for that, but I'm also looking for just the general pattern on the paper. Honestly, my factory full doesn't look bad to me. I'm happy with that. The kicks does look even a little better than that. So that could be an option. The pattern master didn't really do as good as my factory. So I can kind of rule that one out. I'm not gonna spend the money to buy that. Not saying it's not a good choke, but just for me and the ammo that I shoot, that's not really an option that I'm gonna look at. So I'm either gonna continue shooting my factory full or possibly at some point this season by a kicks high flyer full. I definitely like shooting a full choke regardless of what I'm hunting or how far I think it's gonna be. I just like a full choke. Now it hits the birds hard, especially with this heavy metal or bismuth. Bismuth being my most favorite ammo to shoot. So pretty happy with the results I've seen though at 30 yards. Thanks for watching the video. We'll see you guys later.


Bottom of the seventh inning Indiana State 11 Iowa 7 first pitch is a ball Indiana State They like their lead. They feel confident fastball I believe the angles are tough in college baseball to pick it up But that's a big slow breaker 1 and 2 tries to go back to the breaker loses the field batter says you're gonna go fastball again I know it bam crushes it. I don't care if we're losing. I want to get mine left fielder says I'm gonna get mine that you're out Look, I've caught it.   You're right They're right.  I was just having fun a little Little bit of doubt crept over his face at the end Because it's still it would have been cooler to rob the Homer, but he he comes down quick very quickly like yep I got it. This one was brought to you by JM baseball. It's a YouTube channel covers a ton of baseball. Check it out


The single most important question in the world right now. There is one question today that is more important than any other question that could possibly be asked, and it is this. Is what the US Alliance is trying to accomplish in Ukraine worth continually risking nuclear Armageddon for? Russian state media have confirmed that Vladimir Putin's orders to move the nation's nuclear deterrent forces into special combat duty mode have been carried out, citing aggressive statements from NATO related to the Russian military operation in Ukraine. Russia's ground, air, and submarine-based nuclear deterrent forces have begun standby alert duty with reinforced personnel. Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu has informed President Putin. Sputnik reports. This comes days after Putin ordered issued a thinly veiled threat of an immediate nuclear strike. Should Western powers interfere in Russia's invasion of Ukraine, saying, Whoever tries to hinder us, and even more so to create threats to our country, to our people, should know that Russia's response will be immediate, and it will lead you to such consequences that you have never encountered in your history. This comes as the US and EU countries commit to sending fighter jets and stinger missiles to assist Ukraine in fighting an unwinnable war against a long-time target of the US Empire, perhaps with the hope of dragging Moscow into a costly military quagmire like it deliberately worked to do in Afghanistan and Syria. This also comes as the ruble crashes following crushing sanctions and the banning of Russian banks from the International Monetary Transfer System swift by the US and its allies. The economic hardship that follows will hurt ordinary people and may ferment unrest. And it is here worth noting that in 2019 then Secretary of State Mike Pompeo admitted that the goal of brutal sanctions on Iran was to push people to rise up and overthrow their government. We're also seeing the all-too-familiar phrase regime change used in reference to Putin by prominent Western narrative managers like Council on Foreign Relations President Richard Haas, European Council on Foreign Relations co-chair Carl Bilt, Benjamin Whitties of the Brookings Institute and Hoover Institution, as well as USA Today. All of this has made nuclear war in the near term a whole lot more likely than it was just a few days ago, which is actually a strange thing to say. As I'm always saying, the primary risk of nuclear war is not that anyone will choose to start one. It's that one could be triggered by miscommunication, malfunction, miscalculation or misunderstanding amid the chaos and confusion of escalating Cold War tensions. This nearly happened repeatedly in the last Cold War. The more tense things get, the greater the likelihood of an unthinkable chain of events from which there is no coming back. Cold War brinkmanship has far too many small, unpredictable moving parts for anyone to feel confident that they can ramp up aggressions without triggering a nuclear exchange. Anyone who feels safe with these games of nuclear chicken simply does not understand them. To get some insight into how easily an unpredictable scenario can lead to nuclear war, I recommend watching this hour-long documentary or reading this article about Vasily Arkhipov, the Soviet submariner who single-handedly saved the world from obliteration during the Cuban Missile Crisis. He was one of three senior officers aboard a nuclear-armed sub that was cornered near Cuba by US warships who did not know the sub had a nuclear weapon on board. The US Navy was dropping explosives onto the sub to get it to surface, and the Soviets didn't know what they were doing as they had cut off all communications. It took all three senior officers to launch the nuke their ship was armed with, and two of them, thinking this was the beginning of World War III, saw it as their duty to use it. Only Arkhipov, who had witnessed the horrific effects of that radiation can have on the human body during a nuclear-powered submarine melt down years earlier, refused.  Had his personal history and conditioning been a little bit different, or had another officer been on board that particular ship on that particular day, nothing around you right now would be there. We got lucky, so lucky it's uncomfortable to even think about it. But it's important to. This again is just one of the many nuclear close calls we've experienced since our species began its insane practice of stockpiling Armageddon weapons around the world.  We were never in control. Not once. And there's no reason to believe we'll get lucky again. So I repeat again, the world's most important question is what the US Alliance is trying to accomplish with Ukraine worth continually risking nuclear Armageddon for. Well, is it? It's not really a question you can just compartmentalize away from if you have integrity. It demands to be answered. Is it worth it to continue along this trajectory? Is it? Is it really? Perhaps there might be some things that would be worth risking the life of every creature on Earth to obtain, but is refusing to concede to Moscow's demands in Ukraine one of them? Whatever your values are, whatever your analysis is, whatever beliefs you've been holding to justify your support for the west side of this conflict, will you still proudly stand by them if you look outside and see a mushroom cloud growing on the horizon? Well, will you? Here's a hint. If your answer to this question is premised on the assumption that nuclear war can't or will never happen, then you don't have a position that is grounded in reality, because you're not accounting for real possibilities. You are justifying your position with fantasy. I understand the argument that if we don't stop Putin now, he's going to take over all of Europe because he's literally Hitler and blah blah blah. I understand the argument that if we let tyrants do whatever they want just because they have nukes, they'll just do whatever they want. I understand why people ask, well, if we don't stand up to him now, then when? Where is your line? I really do. But the US has been making risk-to-benefit calculations based on the fact that Russia has nuclear weapons every single day since Stalin got the bomb. There are things Russia has been permitted to do that weaker nations would have been forcefully stopped from doing, like annexing Crimea and intervening in Syria, exactly because they have nukes. If those weren't the line, why specifically does Ukraine have to be? Surely there's a line somewhere, but it would have to exist at a point where it would be worth risking the life of every living creature for. So is it? Is keeping the possibility of NATO membership open and retaining control of the Donbass really so important that we should roll the dice on the existence of the entire human species on it? Is maintaining a hostile client state on Russia's border truly worth gambling the life of every terrestrial organism for? Are the unipolarist grand chessboard maneuverings of a few powerful people in Washington, Langley and Arlington really worth risking the life of everyone you know and love? If the answer is no, then building some opposition to what we're seeing here becomes a very urgent matter. Very urgent indeed.


Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the 20th meeting of 2015 of the Public Petitions Committee. Can I ask everyone present to please turn off their mobile phones and the other electronic equipment as it interferes with the sound system? Apologies have been received this morning from David Torrance and Jackson Carlaw. For that reason, to replace David Torrance, Jim Eadie is in attendance. Welcome to the committee, Jim. Angus MacDonald is moving amendments to the Education and Culture Committee, but he will join us if that we get to that point in the meeting. Our first agenda item this morning is to seek agreement on taking agenda item 3 on witness expenses in private, as the committee agreed. That brings us to agenda item 2, which is consideration of PE1463 by Lorraine Cleaver of effective thyroid and adrenal testing diagnosis and treatment. We were taking evidence from the petitioner, but I am also delighted to say that we are joined by Elaine Smith, MSP, who has an interest in the petition. However, we are going to hear first from Lorraine Cleaver of opening the meeting up to you to speak to us for two or three minutes, and then we will take questions, if that is okay. Over to you. Thank you, convener, and thanks to the committee for letting me speak today. As you know, it has been almost three years since I lodged this petition with two co-petitioners who have now left. I am a bit concerned that the petitions came to a kind of impasse because at the last meeting it was agreed that sign would look into doing a piece of work for guidelines into this illness. As I noted in my submission to you last week, I had a meeting with sign because I do have concerns about guidelines. I have concerns that guidelines already are fraught with problems for many, many illnesses because it is not personalised medicine. It somewhat puts you in a box. I think that I was right to have those concerns because it was also in the press a few months back that some of the people working on the guidelines committee have financial conflicts of interest or financial interests. We had quite an intensive meeting. I think that the upshot of that was that guidelines will do a sweep of all the current evidence that exists. Although there is really good evidence backing my petition, the volume that is there would be drowned out by the current older evidence. It could end up that we would have the same old same old at the end of a five-year project. It was agreed that we would work, hopefully, with the Royal College of GPs in Scotland and produce a kind of best practice document. Essentially, that would only be doing what should already be done. It is not actually going to achieve anything new that I asked for in the petition. It would simply be flagging up for GPs that, if a patient comes to you with continued problems on thyroxin, they would do this, this, this and that. Those things already exist, but they have never been adhered to and never been noticed. That piece of work would be really useful for 80 per cent of the population with thyroid problems because they go back to the doctor with odd symptoms and the doctors are not aware of what they should be doing next, checking their B12 levels, checking their iron cortisol, etc. However, it does absolutely nothing to address the people who have no ability to use level thyroxin, the one and only NHS prescribed medication. That is according to the Royal College of Physicians 5-10 per cent. We actually think that it is a lot higher. In my experience, it is vastly higher than that. This piece of work that Sine will conduct will never touch those people. That was the entire reason that I came to the Petitions Committee. Quite apart from that, it does not address the fact that the medication that I need to stay alive is not available on the NHS, it is not licensed in this country and that is a job for the MHRA. I do not know if you would call that Alex Neil came here a few years back, a year and a half, two years ago and gave evidence about that situation and acknowledged that it was the MHRA's job to look into licensing, but if we got independence, maybe that situation would change. Of course, it has not changed, but it makes me concerned that we have a Scottish NHS and yet we have no method for looking into licensing new drugs for our Scottish patients. I urge the committee to have one more round-table meeting to look again at the fresh evidence that I have discussed for those 10 to 20 per cent of people that do not recover and to look at the licensing situation because the European Parliament has closed down my petition saying that it is up to the MHRA. We are just not moving forward anyway. Yes, I know why it is not being looked at because it is a natural product that I am looking for and a natural product from nature cannot be patented, so there is not a great will to put a lot of money into doing research. As the late Dr Skinner said, there is something rather disingenuous that we have to prove that something that was used for 80 years and was cast aside and removed from the BNF in favour of a new synthetic that did not have to prove its metal, we are proving a negative and that is a ridiculous position to be in. We are costing the NHS billions. The drugs that we are looking for are cheap. There is no reason why Scotland cannot conduct a trial comparing the old natural thyroid with the relatively new level thyroxin that has given all those problems. To sum up, I urge the committee not to close the petition because in three years ultimately all that we have achieved is a piece of work with sign that has not began, may take two years and will only address the patience that I was never campaigning on behalf of. Thank you very much for bringing us up to speed with how things are. I will come to Elaine first because you have had a long standing interest in that, Elaine. Do you want to add some comments before I open up to the committee to ask a question? Thank you very much, convener. At Lorraine, as she says, has been working on this now for over three years. The committee has been looking at it. There was a listening exercise as well that the Government was conducting. I do not think that we have had anything back from that yet. Basically, the bottom line to me is that there are a lot of patients in Scotland who are not getting the right treatment. Some of them do not even know that they are not. There are patients who should be on even level thyroxine, who are deemed as being borderline, for example. I know many of them, and they are not even getting the medicine. The whole situation around thyroid medication is frankly a bit of a mess, and I think that it needs much more work done on it. More research needs to be done to show that this is what is happening. I guess that the bottom line is that I would not be sitting here talking to the committee if I had not been able, even though I was very ill. I was able to push my case with my GP to get to a consultant, to get to the right consultant, who was willing to try me out on T3 and basically brought me back to life. I have said that to the committee before, and that is the bottom line. I think that it is a shame that there are so many other people out there who are not getting that opportunity. A, their GP is maybe not referring them, and they are not getting to the right consultant. The committee, a wee while back, had a number of stories that we put together in a hurry. I think that there were about 50 stories, which, if you read them, will basically back up what I am saying here, and will tell you the situation that people find themselves in. It is also predominantly an issue for women, although not exclusively, so it is a gender issue as well. I think that there is a lot that could be done in NHS Scotland. Personally, I would like to see the natural-descaded thyroid available when people are not having to go to America and buy their prescriptions. I think that I might do well on that. I am personally not willing to go and do that. I prefer to just work with my consultant, and at the moment she will not prescribe it because of the situation that she may find herself in. Obviously, the committee does not have a lot of time left. I would certainly support Lorraine's request of you for another round table meeting if you have time to do that. Certainly, a call for evidence could produce a lot more than the evidence that I gave you of the nearly 50 stories. If the committee called for evidence, you would get hundreds of stories. If you cannot do that and you cannot fit it in, then I do not think that, for me, I would make a plea that you do not close the petition, that you put it in the legacy paper and that you request that the next petitions committee look further into this to see how they could take it forward. Before I go to the committee members, I want to get absolutely clarified. The best practice document, would that be purely for that 5 to 10 per cent that has been identified as the patient for whom the current treatment does not work? In essence, for the everyday situation that every GP finds, which is a patient's life with their oxen, but they come back and say, I don't feel this is working, I don't feel great, I've still got all these symptoms. Where does this 5 to 10 per cent come from? It's quoted in the Royal College of Physicians documents, but other people say 16 per cent. The IROID UK's survey for the Scottish Government says higher. It's for everybody with continued symptoms that's gone back to the GP. Within that figure of people with symptoms, there will be a percentage that just cannot tolerate the one NHS drug, and yet there is no provision for those people. It's acknowledged that there's a percentage that can't convert it in their body, but there's absolutely no provision for what to do with them, so they're all getting stuck on antidepressants. This document would be useful, because I think that GPs try very hard with us heart-sync patients, but, ultimately, they don't have a document to refer to, but it still won't be far reaching enough, because it won't offer them the medication that many of us use, T3 or natural thyroid, which brought me back from the dead. I forgot to say when I was speaking, convener, I hope you don't mind, that I know that you were notified by the coroner about thyroid suicide last year, and it wasn't put on the website, but I'm sure it's lodged within the documents. I've received probably about 40 similar letters from people's family who have committed suicide because of the appalling way that illness is treated, and I just want to take up with Elaine's suggestion that if you could call for evidence, we have a shocking amount to back this claim. Just to clarify on that issue, because it relates to a specific set of circumstances involving an individual. While committee members might find it useful to have it circulated just for fullness of information, it could never be put on our website. I hope that that helps to clarify that situation. The colleagues have other questions. I've come to Gonzala Nygian. Good morning. I think that the fact that you said that there's a listing document being put together by the Scottish Government itself, is that what you said? I'm sorry, I didn't hear that. The listing exercise? Yes. Who's actually carrying that out? The Scottish Government, and that was last March or April, so they were probably running late coming back with the results of that, but what they did was they requested a charity called Thyroid UK conduct a survey of patients to get their viewpoints on how they've been treated, and the results of that survey are in, and they're back with the Scottish Government, so I don't know what the next move is, but the results of that were quite astonishing, really, at how long people are waiting for diagnosis, and how well they remain when they're on a level without oxen. Cynon, I'm quite happy to continue the petition. I think it's important that we get all the information that everybody need, and if we don't have time ourselves, we could pause it forward for the next committee to make it. I have a discussion about what to do at the end of the questions. Do you want to come to you first? Thank you, convener. I just wanted to seek some clarification so that I've understood the issues correctly. There is a medication available called T3, which 5 to 10 per cent of patients do not respond to, but who may benefit from the alternative. 5 to 10 per cent, allegedly, don't respond to level through oxen, the standard drug, and they request either T3 or natural thyroid. Okay, so I'm just trying to understand what the issues are in terms of access to treatment, because clearly that's something— No, that's a very valid question. If the manufacturer is saying, and the Scottish Government is saying that there are no supply issues, what are the barriers to treatment? Well, I don't know where they get that from, because we've had three supply issues in the past three years that have been noted by the MHRA. The information that the committee has received, if I've understood it correctly, states that the Scottish Government was not aware of any T3 supply issues in 2015, and the manufacturer Amco has advised that they are working on an improvement to the manufacturing process, and they are committed to ensuring a good supply in the future, which of course suggests that there are issues still to be overcome. Do you just clarify that area for us? Yes, sure, because they're the only manufacturer of the drug in the UK, which is why they can hold the NHS to ransom and charge over £100 for 28 tablets. That issue was also brought up at a previous meeting here, and nothing's changed. The NHS is paying over the odds for this medication, which is available for two euros in Europe. Cost is an issue. GPs don't want to prescribe it for cost. GPs are not actually supposed to prescribe it. They're supposed to refer you to a consultant endocrinologist, and, of course, with cost-cutting, they don't want to. They make the opening gambit in endocrinologists by email and are told immediately that no, no, their thyroid levels are fine, it must be something else, and they're not then forwarded to the endocrinologist, so they never really get the T3 that they need, and if they do get it, they never get enough. So there are so many problems in every area. Did you just complete this? Can I just ask if you had any discussions with either the manufacturer or the MHRA about overcoming these issues? Yes, I have repeatedly contacted the MHRA Andy Farmer, Kerry, who I think I've had three different names in three years, and I'm just consistently told that because they are one company making it, they have to recalibrate all their machinery when they're doing a manufacturer run. And so they forecast what they'll need, and if that doesn't meet the need, then it's another several months before they're ready to recalibrate and make that batch again. So that is a danger of having one manufacturer in the country for one medication, which isn't just used for thyroid patients, it's used in cardiac patients and in heart failure, so it's quite a serious medication. Okay, thank you. Okay, Elaine, you want it too, Meg? Thanks, convener. Just on the back of what Jim was asking, could I possibly ask Lorraine just to go through for us the difference between T4 and T3, the conversion issues, and also the problems with testing, the lab testing of the results, and why perhaps Lorraine could tell us why other countries have different ranges for the testing results that might result in a different prescription in this country? Thank you, Elaine, yes. I feel that when I'm sitting here speaking to you, you're looking for the gist of the problem, and in fact, there are problems with obtaining the medication, there are problems getting referred to a specialist, there are problems passing the test to be diagnosed with hypothyroid, because in this country we have set a reference range of 10 unless you get to the magic figure of 10, you're not treated in America. It's sometimes three, sometimes four, sometimes 2.5. Different cities have different reference ranges, so there's no parity across the board for whether you would be lucky enough to get diagnosed. So while you're waiting for that diagnosis, you can be diagnosed depressed, or fibromyalgia, or some other inaccurate result. Sorry, what was the other question, yes, Neil? It was just to explain the difference between T4 and T3. The 5 to 10 per cent are actually people who do better on T3 or dedicated thyroid. It's about the T4 and the T3 and the difference. Because this medicationally with the rocks and that everyone is standard offered is T4, and it's synthetic and it's not an active hormone, your body, your liver, your gut, peripheral tissue must convert it into T3 to be active. There are deodorant defects, genetic defects, where people can't convert it. There are many other reasons why you wouldn't, because you might have pituitary issues or cortisol issues or iron deficiency, many reasons. And they're just never checked when you repeatedly go back to a doctor and say, no, I don't feel well. It's never converted, but it will make your blood test look hunky-dory, it will make everything look fine, it will lower your TSH and it will make everything look fine to the untrained eye. So we're never getting diagnosed, we're never getting sufficient treatment, and we're not getting the correct medication that we need. When you have complete thyroid failure, your thyroid is no longer able to produce five things, T1, 2, 3, 4 and calcitonin, and in the NHS we're giving people one thing, not five, and we're giving them a misynthetic hormone that not everybody can convert. In fact, I think this is total medical negligence, because we know for a fact what the thyroid produced when it was functioning, and we give them one out of five things and tell them that that's sufficient. When they removed my thyroid gland, they said, we'll replace everything that it used to make, but they didn't. There was a reason I became obese and bald and suicidal. There's a reason for people taking their lives, and it's not depression, it's not in their head, it's not fibromyalgia, it's simply a lack of thyroid hormone. John Lennon, we have considered the issue as a committee for a couple of years, and we thought that we would resolve some of the issues, and clearly we haven't resolved the issue about supply T3 and the regularity of the supply T3. We thought that it had been resolved, clearly what we're hearing this morning, it hasn't been resolved. You've indicated that there's only one manufacturer of T3 in the UK. Could you tell us how many manufacturers of T3 there are in Europe? Not off the top of my head, John, but there are certainly more than five in mainland Europe, and I happen to know that patients are now booking their holidays to Turkey or elsewhere just to come across some T3 medication when it's either in short supply here or they've just refused it due to cost. That is an issue now. The drug is available, T3 is available in Europe and manufactured in Europe to European standards, yet we seem to have a situation with MHRA saying that we can only have one manufacturer in the UK supplying that drug and they're not prepared to go elsewhere to procure that drug. Yes, although when there was quite a lengthy shortage last year they were prepared to go to Europe because they had to supply the drug for these patients, so the loophole was opened when it had to be. It's definitely not best practice for the NHS to be overpaying to one manufacturer in the UK, but it also doesn't address my need for natural thyroid and that ultimately was the reason that I wanted to petition all those years ago. I don't want the next 20, 30 years of my life to be worried sick about being able to import the only medication that I can take. I have tried the NHS T3, the live with the rocks and my own endocrinologist acknowledges that it's I'm just not able to tolerate it at all and he asked my GP which she considered prescribing it because lots of his patients were recovering and it was high time that Scotland conducted some trials into this because it previously had a fantastic record and I think his words were it's more than my job's worth to prescribe it. That's the next question, was the natural desiccated thyroid. Who manufactures that and is it manufactured in the UK, Europe or is it only manufactured in the States? It seems to be only the States although some people are sourcing some that's made in Thailand, but the States is where I sourced mine and it's well controlled by the United States Pharmacopia and it's safe, but it's still not safe for me to be buying drugs online.  And there's no manufacturer of natural desiccated thyroid in the UK or Europe. You're not that I'm aware of, no. Right. Convener, clearly this is an issue about patient care and treatment and clearly I thought we had resolved it with the previous cabinet secretary coming along and giving us assurances in relation to sign guidelines, MHRC and others, but I'll make a suggestion at the end of the questions on how we take this forward. To be honest with you, John, I think we've reached that point and I don't have any other questions, so Han Sal has already made that one. Sure, John. You seem to touch your previous statement on the issue around safety. Can I just point to the letter that the committee has received from an official within the Scottish Government that says in relation to describing of desiccated thyroid hormone treatment, it has felt that there is insufficient evidence of benefit and lack of risk at present to support the prescribing of thyroid extract and there are alternatives which have a licence and safety data, but what you seem to be suggesting in terms of the availability of desiccated thyroid hormone treatment in the United States is that there probably would be quite a lot of data available to establish whether or not there was risk of patients. It depends by. I know what you're saying, but I've just found out. It's only why the Scottish Government would say, what the official would say, that there was a lack of safety data. Lack of evidence. When the fact was actually quite, you would think of that in North America, which is the biggest market for licensed medicines, that they would be built up over time quite a lot of data on whether the medication works or what safety profile of the medicine is and so on. There is plenty of data. There is over 100 years of data that is safe and effective, whether it's peer reviewed, medically collated data, I don't know. I actually don't believe it's even licensed in the States, although it's still manufacturer there and it's still used commonly. There used to be the belief that it was a grandfathered drug because it had existed for so long that it was just granted a safe status and it's continued use was no problem. I'm not even sure that it is licensed in the States, but it's regularly prescribed. The FDA do have a safety profile on it and it has fewer safety recalls than any Levithoroxone or any Lioth ironing. I see what the Scottish Government are saying is that we've got a lack of a body of evidence backing up against that, but when Levithoroxone was introduced in the 60s and 70s, it wasn't trialled on females or it wasn't trialled on a large amount of patients. It was simply introduced and I think I've made quite a few comments over the past three years about that. I have continually asked the MHRA, the European Medicines Agency, whoever I could think of. I've asked them, can I see this safety data for Levithoroxone? It doesn't exist. It was introduced against the only medication, which was natural thyroid. It was introduced and now we're being asked to prove that the 70 years previously proved that that was a safe period. I don't know how you can prove a negative, but nobody is prepared to do the studies now because, like I say, there's no money in a natural product, but it's a heck of a saving for the NHS. That's how we're going to do it. I take it from what colleagues are saying that there's no desire to close this petition. I think that the evidence that we've heard this morning raises more questions that we need to pursue. Hanzala indicated an area that we need to go back to to the Scottish Government to ask questions. I was going to suggest that we invite the new cabinet secretary for health along to give evidence, particularly in light of the listening exercise report that was supposed to have been produced. I think that we could ask the cabinet secretary to come along and give us the feedback from that exercise to answer some of the questions that have been raised today, particularly the on-going problem with the supply of T3 in the UK. I also look at the issue in terms of the natural alternatives that could be available, because there is clearly an issue that Lorraine has highlighted that we have figures that anything up to 16 per cent plus could benefit, but the reality is that for many patients if they don't know if they're not on Elaine Smith, who's a determined individual who goes forward and argues whether GP and argues to get referred to the right consultant, then we could have many people, particularly women, out there in society at the present moment, still struggling to get the treatment they need and the best treatment that gives them a quality of life that we'd all expect. I think that it would be useful, in my opinion, to bring along the cabinet secretary, because it has been, I think, two years since we've had the cabinet secretary here, and to answer some of those questions before we start moving on to the possibility of doing our own inquiry, which might be slightly time-barbed because of the upcoming elections. That's a good suggestion, and I should certainly invite the cabinet secretary to see if she takes the same position as her predecessor in relation to the comment that you outlined earlier about where we could be in the future. We're in a different place when he wanted us to be, but that doesn't mean that things can't be taken forward. I don't always buy into this idea that the wand of milk or honey would have arrived next year, but we're certainly able to test that theory if we get the cabinet secretary in front of us and she can answer the questions whether she agrees with the previous incumbent on that, Jim. I'll just add one thing. Some of the committee members have changed since the stories that were put together have been submitted to the committee. I wonder if they could be recirculated to the committee because they give an overview of what people are suffering, what they're going through and maybe even submitted to the cabinet secretary before she comes to give evidence, because although they were put together in a hurry, I think that they give a good indication across the country of what's happening to people. I think that they were already available to committee members, but we'll certainly take up a suggestion for those that might find that useful. We'll take it forward on that basis and thanks to Lorraine Gweaver for coming again this morning. I'll suspend for a couple of minutes until we change over. The next petition is from Margaret McAnne's on-Saint Margaret of Scotland Hospice. It's PE1105. In order to discuss this petition, I welcome Gil Paterson, the constituency interest in the petition and someone who's pursued it for the duration of the time that's been considered by the committee. Gil, do you want to make some comments? I would like to thank the committee again for the decision that took the last time that the petition was before you. I think that the fact that the two parties will be sitting down to discuss this matter indicates the decision that the committee made, reminding you that the Government had recommended that this petition be closed. I asked that it shouldn't be. I gave some rationale why that should take place. The committee had its own views also. I think that the fact that the committee took that decision, the result that we've got now, is because of that decision. I wonder and worry if what would have happened if the committee had closed the petition at that particular time, but the fact that the words that were used at the committee, the expression from the committee itself, I think has resulted in this action. We don't know what's going to happen from any discussions, but the fact that people are sitting down talking about the matter is a very, very positive step indeed. I know that I've kind of lost track. I think that I've attended every single petition committee apart from one in Dumfries. I couldn't because I had business here, but what we're like to put in record is that the hospice itself has attended every single meeting of this committee since 2007, which is a tremendous record. I know that in the public gallery just now, we've got Gina and Mitchell who have taken over the petition. We've got Claire Murphy from the hospice itself, and we've got another great supporter, the former provost of West Dunbartonshire Council, a councillor, Dennis Agnew. They've put a lot of time. They've always been here to lend support and hear what the petition committee's got to say. I can tell you that I always, when I go out and speak to them, they're so grateful that the petition's committee itself how it handles things, in particular this one. It's been going a long, long time. I think we'll appreciate that, but it had to be quite frank. We're not there yet, and I'm hoping that the petition's committee yet again decides not to close it. I think that it would be premature. I think that you might need to consider it at some other point, but I think that that would not be the right time, but thanks. I agree with you. We can't know whether it's right to close this petition until we know the outcome of the discussions that came about after the last time it was discussed at the petition's committee. I think that we have to wait to see what the discussion actually brings. If we can get a report back from that, we can then consider a future meeting of the petition's committee, and then we can decide at that point if there are still further discussions that we need to be party to. I'll open up to colleagues to see if they agree with that. I agree that we must keep the petition open. I think that I've been on the committee for every meeting that this petition has been discussed. Clearly, what we have now is the same position from the Scottish Government that we had previously when we'd last considered this, and that was to get a meeting between all parties, the Scottish Government, the hospice and the health board. What I'm concerned about is the time delay that it's taken to actually get that meeting organised. I would be keen, as well as keeping the petition open if we write to the Scottish Government and impress on them the urgency of trying to get a meeting organised as soon as possible, not to let this issue continue to drag on, because it has dragged on, in my view, for eight years. I think that we need to try to get some early round-table discussion with all parties concerned, so that we can then consider how we take the petition forward. I'm happy to write to the cabinet secretary on that. In that regard, John, I understand that I suggested a date, and it's very, very early to be quite honest with you, but it wouldn't be for me to say to you not to write to the Government. You've got to write, Gil, just to confirm that. I think that I was just about to suggest that, but just to give you a bit of comfort, there is a date scheduled, but it would be good if you are involved with that. Just to establish that that's the case. I'd be delighted with that, yes. I recall that we actually requested the Government to deal with this as a matter of urgency in one of the committees. I recall that we made that request, so I don't know whether we've actually got a response for that or not. Could we possibly check our records to see what we actually asked for prior and see if we actually got a reply for that or not? We can check that out, but the important thing is that we keep the petition open. We ask our confirmation of the date of the meeting, and then we await the outcome of that meeting before we can deliberate any further. Is that okay? Okay, Gil, thank you very much for talking to us on this one. Thank you. Grateful again. We'll take it forward in that way. Our next petition this morning is PE1223 by Ron Beattie on school bus safety, and I welcome Stuart Stevenson MSP to the meeting, who has a constituency interest in the petition. Members have a note on the committee's previous consideration of the petition and submission from the petitioner and Transport Scotland. We also have copies of the evaluation report of Glasgow City Council's pilot programme on school bus signage. Stuart, over to you to make some comments. I am most obliged to thank you for the opportunity to update in particular some members who may not have been here for the 10 years that basically this issue has been before various forms of this committee. The origins of this, of course, date to a road traffic accident involving Mr Ron Beattie's granddaughter, and I recognise that Ron Beattie is with us in the public gallery once again. I think that over the 10 years that he's been coming here, he's only missed two meetings at which that has been considered. If I say that that represents a round-trip of approaching 350 miles driving, you'll recognise the commitment that he has to improving safety for all school pupils in the vicinity of school buses, because that's the core of this. Can we make things safer in the vicinity of school buses? We've seen a fair amount of activity, but perhaps I would suggest rather less action. The report that we've from Glasgow, perhaps, I just got a couple of things out to that. I know that you will have read it, but in particular that enhanced signage on school buses appears to have made them more visible to people, in particular flashing lights, especially in darkness. The question that's posed is to what extent an enhanced signage has improved driver behaviour. The study that comes from Glasgow says that most drivers recognise that this told them to slow down and be more aware cautious. The on-road test said that a number of drivers said that they were more cautious, although it's fair to say that the report is not unambiguous in suggesting that this is the way forward. What I would suggest to the committee, and of course it is a matter entirely for yourselves, is that we seek ways with Transport Scotland of extending the work that's been done in Glasgow, as reported in the report, but also in the changes and practices that have been in Aberdeenshire to see if we can find what ways we can extend this across all 32 local authorities. Although in Aberdeenshire we've had a number of accidents involving school pupils in the vicinity of buses, I know that it is not simply an Aberdeenshire problem, it's a problem for the whole of Scotland. The debate around this issue and the relentless campaign of Ron Beattie is something that we shouldn't allow to weather without a practical result. Okay, thank you very much. Colleagues have comments on the petition, how we can take it forward. If indeed we can take it forward, carry. I take on board what Stuart Stevenson says. I think that getting a practical result is what we want and obviously we do seem to have to some extent run out of the road with the Scottish Government to have been doing what they can, but I do think that, given that we are running out of road ourselves, making sure that the intimation is put to the UK where power rests on a variety of road traffic issues that are not minor but quite substantial. We're not looking for a huge or massive change in many ways, but it can have significant benefits. I certainly think that getting in touch with the Department of Transport at UK level to say that there is an issue here and to some extent put our shoulders to the wheel from what I assume Derek Mackay and Transport Scotland have been doing. I was just going to suggest that we continue the petition, a note from the response from Transport Scotland on 16 November, where they claimed just to have seen sight of the Glasgow report. Glasgow City Council has got to be commended on taking forward this piece of work, because I think that it shows what can be done if there is a determination to highlight an issue. As well as writing to the Scottish Government and asking them to keep pressure on the Department of Transport, could I suggest that we write as a committee to the Department of Transport and ask them what their views on the Glasgow City Council report is, so that we can then consider whether or not they are going to prepare to take forward the action? We were promised, as a committee, five years ago by the then Minister for the Department of Transport, that they would transfer the powers to the Scottish Government to allow the Scottish Government to bring forward action on this issue. Clearly, the Department of Transport and the UK Government have failed to do that. If the committee can write to the Department of Transport and ask them, on the basis of the report from Glasgow City Council, are they prepared now to transfer the powers to the Scottish Government or take the appropriate action that is necessary to try and alleviate any future road traffic accidents due to the failure of the school bus safety signage and the roads in Britain today? I am a little hesitant in politicalising it. I think that what we want to do is to ask the Department of Transport what exactly they are going to do in response to the Glasgow City Council's report to see whether they are happy to move that forward across the country. If so, what steps or what programmes have they got in place to do that? Does it indicate whether they are intending to take that seriously or not? I think that the question was suggested in general. I think that the only difference was that John wanted to test how far he was prepared to go in terms of the power. It has not come up in the discussions on the Scotland bill. There has been ample opportunity for that to have taken place, but we can check it out. The point that I was raising was that we did have the Minister for the Department of Transport at this committee in 2010 and he gave an assurance at that time that he did not see any reason why the powers regarding the road signage could not be transferred to the Scottish Government and the officials from the Department of Transport and the Scottish Government Transport Scotland could take place to look at transferring those powers. Yes, it might not have been included in the Scotland bill, convener, but there was an assurance at that time that it would happen. It is just a reminder to the Department of Transport that a previous minister did give that commitment that it would look at transferring those powers. If it is not prepared to transfer the powers, then clearly the Department of Transport has to look at the Glasgow City Council report and the petition in light of road safety in Britain today and bring forward some suggestions about how it wishes to improve school bus transport safety. As I said, my suggestion is to find out whether or not they are prepared to take that forward. We can ask the question, it is not a problem. What I was actually suggesting is that rather than make the issue muddied by asking about the transport, minister wants to say about this or not, I would rather get on with the job and the job is the safety of our children. I would rather get a commitment from the Transport Department as to what it is doing to resolve the issue and ensure the safety of our youngsters on the roads. I think that the suggestion is that we do that. There is an additional question being asked as well. I did not want to confuse the issue. I am not sure that we would. I am sure that the clerks will formulate the letter in a way that separates and distorts the distinction between each of the separate questions. Just for clarity, and I have forgotten to say the name of the minister, Mike Pennan. It has just suddenly come to me. I was the minister whose contribution was particularly powerful because he was formally a fireman before he was elected politician and therefore he himself had as a fireman experience of road traffic accidents. It is quite a narrow issue, the question of power. It is purely in relation to being able to mandate what signage there should be on buses. It is perfectly permissible to put on signage beyond the minimum that is mandated, but Mike Pennan made quite a powerful point in that he pointed to some examples of accidents. If I recall correctly, in Wales and in England, there are benefits to other jurisdictions if the Department for Transport, as part of the UK Government, were either to give us the power here or to respond and act themselves. In this forum, I would not want to point out the direction as long as it happens. That is all that matters, and all my concern, Mr Beattie, would wish to happen. The committee has agreed that we are prepared to ask that question, so we will take it forward in that regard. We will see what the responses we get. I am sure that you will continue to keep an eye on it. Our next petition is PE1408 by Andrea McArthur on updating of permissions anemia vitamin B12, efficiency, understanding and treatment. Members have a note on the committee's previous consideration of the petition and an update from the Scottish Government on submissions from the petitioner. In her most recent response, the petitioner explains that she has now had sight of the guidelines and has provided some comments on the content of those guidelines. I can understand that she still has some concerns, but it seems to me that she did seem, in the main, broadly satisfied with the direction of travel. It might be that we are required to allow these guidelines to bed down, and it would be more appropriate if there are further issues that follow on. It is a fresh petition regarding a specific issue that the guidelines are unsatisfactory with, because it seems to me that some of what she initially wanted has been satisfied. I can understand that it is early in the day to be able to say whether the guidelines are working or not, but it also appears to me that if the guidelines are not particularly working, then that might actually be a new issue, as opposed to reviewing the initial issue that she petitioned. Given that the petitioner did provide more evidence, though it might be worthwhile to pass that on to the Scottish Government and ask me to comment on that. It will not change the guidelines, it will not make any difference, but we will get an understanding of the Government's views on her comments. We can take it back to the petitioner's committee once we have seen those comments, but I take entirely what you are saying. We have to wait and see how those guidelines bed in, but the petitioner did have some comments on them, so it would be worth seeing what the response of the Government is to it. Members agreed. Our next petition is PE1458 by Peter Cherby on the register of interests of members of Scotland's judiciary. Members have a note on the committee's previous consideration of the petition and submission from the petitioner. I think that the new Lord President's appointment to whoever he is likely to be within the next week, so there is still time for him to appear before us. Our next petition is PE1548 by Beth Morrison on national guidance on restraint and seclusion in schools. Members have notes from the clerks and submissions from the Scottish Government. We will continue to see what progress is made and we can look again in the new year at the petition. The next petition is PE1558 by John Thom on behalf of RNBCC Crayfish Committee, Kennedy Catchment on American Signal Crayfish. The members have a note from the committee's previous consideration of the petition and we have also received from missions on the petition from SNH and SIPA, the petitioner and Abigail Stancliff von. I think that we might have to go back to SIPA and SNH to get an update on where they stand on this. Again, there is the idea that we could ask Spice to do a bit of work on that. Members think that that would be useful. I can't do any harm, I suppose, if we can ask the question of them. If we get as full a picture of this as we can, I'm afraid. Are there any specific questions that members think that we need to pursue? Can I suggest that we ask SIPA or SNH to respond to the comments that have been made by Abigail Stancliff von in relation to the trapping and other issues that have been raised in that submission? We've got something tangible that they can respond to. Clearly, this is an issue that seems to be clearly divided opinions about the best way to deal with or not to deal with American Signal Crayfish, so it would be useful to pin them down to SNH and SIPA to respond to something tangible on that. I think that the issue that was raised by Abigail Stancliff von is something that they can clearly look up. Members agree that we do that. Our next petition is PE1569, by George Mackenzie, on the reintroduction of the Scottish red ensign. Members have a note on the committee's previous consideration of the petition, but the members have any suggestions themselves? Angus? I think that, convener, given that we are still waiting on a response from the petitioner to the minister's letter, which was clearly quite recent, we should wait and see what the response is back from the petitioner. I thought that the letter from the minister was quite encouraging to the extent that I have sought advice on a legal position in relation to the flying of different ensigns within the same shipping register. Our understanding is that this is not currently permitted under international maritime law. However, he does go on to say that he would be pleased to pursue the issue with the UK Government along with the petitioner. I think that it is certainly right that we hear from the petitioner before we take a further decision. That will be after the new year then, I think, just before we hear. There was a letter on 27 November by the petitioner. We might want to send that to the minister again and get the minister's response to everything and consider it again in the new year. Is that okay? Convener, just for clarification, I am looking at the letter from the Department for Transport, and the Department for Transport might be that I am misreading this, but it seems to conflict with what the Scottish Government Minister said about the flying of the red ensign. It does go into any such request for colours other than those to constitute the red ensign, and it should include an example in the description. It is really just to get clear guidance on what the Department for Transport is saying in relation to any application. I know that there are a number of ships that sail in Scottish waters and fly under different colours. It would be just useful to get clarification on what the WISA Committee cannot ask the Department for Transport to grant those powers to fly the red ensign with salt iron. It would be useful to find out whether or not the Scottish Government would be prepared to advise the petitioner how to take forward such an application if they were so minded. I am actually very pleased with the Minister's response. I think it is important that another one that is going to try to assist the process in allowing people to fly the flag. I think that is important for our shipping to be able to do that. A lot of other nationals do it. I do not see why we cannot do it. I would very much welcome the fact that they would be registered in Scotland as well, unlike many other shipping companies that are registered all over the world and fly different flags. I think that we will continue this based on that and allow the Minister to go that extra mile for us. There seems to be agreement. There were a few questions there, so I will take it forward to ask those questions. The next petition is PE1570 by Alan Lee on parental rights to child contact. Again, members have a note from the clerk and a number of submissions. The submissions include the response from the organisations that we have written to and a submission from families' deed fathers in support of the petition. There are other petitions that relate to that, so it would be useful if we got all the information back on those other petitions as well so that we can consider them together or not necessarily in the one bundle but certainly consider them around the same time with the full information available to us. We would defer this one until we have more information in relation to those other petitions. The last petition is PE1571 by John Beattie on food bank funding. Members have a note on the committee's previous consideration of the petition and the submissions that we received from food banks, local authorities and the Scottish Government. Given that, the Scottish Government is establishing the social justice action plan. It might be useful to wait until we see the outcome of that and to look at the submissions that we have received in the context of the plan that the Government has set out, because it will be talking to the same organisation, so I do not think that there is any point in duplicating the work. With that, we are now going to private session as agreed earlier so that we can discuss agenda item 3.