Good afternoon, everybody. You're very, very welcome indeed to this afternoon's event, which is the latest event We are hosting this May as part of our IIEA 30th anniversary celebrations This week in particular, we have seen our anniversary celebrations intensify with an opening address by Antishek Michal Martin, discussions on Anglo-Irish relations Reflections on the role of think tanks in the age of so-called fake news And then yesterday we were particularly delighted to host two very interesting webinars on the future of the European economy and The French perspective on the future direction of the European Union Today we're turning our attention to transit and relations and we welcome warmly welcome indeed Congressman Richard Neil Chairman of the House Ways and Means Committee To discuss a number of issues on the US economic agenda Not the least of which of course is the stimulus and the infrastructure packages But also of course corporate tax reform and I'm not least a safeguarding piece on the island of Ireland Let me run through briefly some housekeeping if I may which I'm sure by now you're all very familiar with but you will be Congressman Neil will deliver a brief opening remarks and I then just begin with some introductory questions And we then come to you our audience Questions and you can submit these in the normal way using the Q&A function on your screens the zoom function on your screens We ask that you identify yourselves and your organization if applicable And also that you try to keep your questions as brief as possible So that we can get to as many as possible in the time available The discussion today is fully on the record. You can also get involved in a discussion on Twitter And we encourage you to use the hashtag Hashtag IIA 30 Let me now formally introduce Congressman Neil Richard E. Neil serves as chairman of the Ways and Means Committee in the US House of Representatives A position he has held since January 2019 This prestigious and influential committee holds responsibility overall taxation tariffs and other revenue raising measures Representing the second congressional district of Massachusetts Congressman Neil, Chairman Neil was first elected to the House of Representatives in 1988 he served as first two terms of the House Banking Committee before moving to the Ways and Means Committee in 1993 a proud Irish American and committed friend of Ireland He has served as chairman of the Congressional Friends of Ireland Committee since 2007 and is deeply committed to fostering US Ireland relations and Protecting the Northern Ireland peace process. So chairman congressman Richie Welcome to Ireland even if it is virtually you're very very welcome indeed. The floor is yours.  I'm delighted to participate in this event With my really good friend Ambassador Collins with whom I work closely when he served as the ambassador of Ireland to the United States in Washington from 2007 to 2013 as you know in 2001 Ambassador Collins was appointed second secretary general in the Department of the Taoiseach With responsibilities for the Northern Ireland peace process as well as annual Irish issues in EU and international affairs responsibilities upon retirement He became the longest-serving diplomat in the history of the Irish Foreign Service, which is indeed quite an accomplishment Ambassador Collins is certainly he knows it's been an honor to work with him over all of these years So we are convening in a very optimistic and busy time as chairman of the Ways and Means Committee in the House of Representatives I work with colleagues to advance important taxation and trade policies Our committee has played an integral part in the United States efforts to recover from the economic and health prices spurred by the COVID-19 pandemic Which has upended lives across the United States and around the world from the CARES Act to the American Rescue Plan We have worked diligently to ensure that the American people have the resources they need To weather this storm as part of our efforts to overcome the economic and health crisis We are developing a plan with the Biden administration To indeed build back better We intend to make such very needed investments in our country's infrastructure And they will indeed benefit everybody in America as well as the rest of the world Our goal is to create good-paying jobs and put our economy on a more sustainable path I look forward to the continuing efforts of the Biden administration on these initiatives On the trade front, we've seen President Biden as administration Reaffirming our relationships with European allies and our other trading partners just as I hoped he would I'm encouraged by the suspension of tariffs related to the Boeing Airbus Large Civil Aircraft WTO dispute To provide some time for the United States, the EU and UK To negotiate a solution that addresses the domestic subsidies provided to our respectful and respected aircraft sectors I recognize the urgency of these negotiations in light of the anti-competitive practices of China And its state-driven model of economic and political governance I'm fully supportive of the administration's announcement this week to start discussions with EU to address the very real problem of global steel and aluminum overcapacity I'm very hopeful that we can put our heads together to come up with some creative solutions to address this challenge I think we have ample room to deepen our transatlantic economic and trade cooperation To address the challenges of today from forced labor and our supply chains to the climate crisis As well as providing future proof to economies that are market-driven will work best We are prepared to face the trials of tomorrow That's not to say that we won't experience any difficulties in these relationships As close as the United States and EU are in terms of our values and our democratic systems of government We sometimes disagree when it comes to specific policies Fortunately, we have Ambassador Catherine Tye Who worked on my committee staff for a long period of time as the United States trade representative Meaning she is the most foremost advocate of trade policy within the administration She brings a wealth of knowledge and experience to the position and she knows my views on trade policy Including the importance of our us EU ties as well As the friends of Ireland, we are watching the EU's closely evolving economic and political relationship with the UK I along with colleagues have been in close communication with both the British and European government officials since the beginning of Brexit negotiations To ensure that both sides recognize the critical importance of protecting the Good Friday agreement It is the path forward. We will not Negotiate on the issue of the Good Friday agreement It has to continue to be fully implemented. It is an extraordinary example Of what people can do When they foster goodwill and provide for the prosperity of people on the island of Ireland We've seen the inevitable Brexit teething process. I'm encouraged that the EU and the UK Will try to respect all agreements and commitments they've made and to make sure that that includes the Northern Ireland protocol It will protect the gains of the Good Friday agreement The Biden administration is encouraging both sides to continue prioritizing political and economic stability in northern Ireland in a way that benefits All traditions as well. I know I've spoken to him personally on these issues Separately another challenge that we will need to address is the issue of taxation and digital economy profits The Biden administration has proposed a new approach at the OECD recording a global minimum tax Which all are considering We will have to figure out a global approach to these specific taxation matters that do not unfairly disadvantage us workers businesses or our tax base In closing, let me highlight that the ways and means committee Is considering all of our legislative initiatives through the lens of a new equity framework With an objective of making sure our policies benefit everyone Equally I recognize our european friends have adopted similar guiding principles as part of their trade For all strategy and I look forward to working with the EU and other like-minded countries to make our trade and economic policies equitable We will need to work together more than ever to build trust and to make sure we build a brighter future for all It will take pragmatism trust and honesty and mr. Ambassador I'm delighted to be with you today and certainly take your observations and questions from the audience Thank you chairman. Thank you congressman Yeah, I start with a few maybe of my own and then we we welcome Our questions from from the audience and we get to as many of those we can in the time available But maybe we start first of all with the the what's happening in washington and particularly in relation to the committee and then maybe we will come to The northern island issue piece on the island of Ireland, but you spoke about the president's determination and to build back better Obviously the the president's proposals. I think it originally starting at six trillion were You know emerged and they're working their way through Congress, but it seems to be very very difficult to To reach agreement to reach any form of consensus on that where do they stand at the moment? And what is the what are the prospects of reasonable bipartisanship and delivering on this Well, I'm going to exhaust every avenue to secure a bipartisan agreement Infrastructure in the united states used to be the easiest thing to do in congress And even that has become more polarized in terms of the debate Despite the fact that both sides agree upon the need so mid-june The infrastructure committee will begin a markup. That is what is called an authorizing effort And then shortly thereafter the ways and means committee we will begin to model revenue And how to pay for it as you know, the president wants it paid for in totality So my plan is to try to make sure that we accomplish that at the same time. There will be some revenue measures I do agree with the president's tax proposals By in large that does not mean that that's what will be the end product Members of congress, as you know, we do not serve under presidents. We serve with presidents So we need to align ourselves not with just the administration's point of view But what the united states sense point of view and I would like to see this plan accomplished by august 1st Yeah, and just you talk spoke about the the president's tax plans domestic tax plans. I think Treasury Secretary Yellen was out yesterday saying that I think part of those tax plans was to increase corporation tax or is to increase corporation tax Back up to I think 28% 28% from the 21% it was during the the Trump administration but Secondly, yes, he was talking about A global minimum rate of I think such as a 15% which has come down from the 21% And I know that's all in gestation within the OECD at the moment But what do you what do you think of the prospects of delivering on that and do you think the 15% rate Is in around where it's going to be bearing in mind, of course that our rate is 12 and a half Well, I've been negotiating for a long time Michael and one of the things that I have advised members of the Ways and Means Committee As well as members of the democratic caucus in the House of Representatives To refrain from endorsing specificity as it relates to revenue until we get a plan And the reason for that is that the administration has already moved a couple of numbers And I think that we want to make sure that the final number Is the one that we can adhere to now. Let me say this I do agree with the president's initiative on a global minimum tax The reason for that is clear That many corporations they treaty shock They will earn profits in one specific country But they will report as to having earned those profits in a different tax jurisdiction Generally a low tax jurisdiction So as you know, the president's had a series of these proposals I'm very friendly with Janet Yellen the secretary of the treasury But I think that there is a broad base of support For addressing the issue of where tax receipts are reported Having been earned Yeah, we had our own finance minister pascal done the hue on yesterday And inevitably the the tax issue was was was arose And he has been saying for some time including speaking at the institute here previously that that change was Or is or what is inevitable that he hasn't specified exactly no more than you What the position on that change is going to be but You know knowing Ireland as you do Chairman Is this something that Ireland should be worried about considering the level of fdi here considering our current rate of 12 and a half percent No, I don't think so and I'll tell you why first of all the Finance minister is a great pal of mine and we were supposed to talk yesterday But we didn't have that chance, but I'm sure in the next few days. We will be in contact Ireland has a very well educated population It is the entry point from the united states to europe The commitment that ireland has made over decades to education and to achievement is going to serve them well in the global economy I also think it's important to to remind all That the relationship between ireland and the united states Certainly will not be diminished because we have a discussion about tax policy. That's for sure But I think that the the minister's position as he has at least tentatively Offered those words is likely to proceed Yeah, I just see the question come in from A journalist in the Irish independent Sarah Collins and I'll just repeat the question because it just I made up that question myself obviously, but just to Just to to to give her words on it. She says can you comment on the us treasury's latest proposals for a 15% global minimum tax rate? I think you've done that and this is lower than the 21 first proposed Do you think it would bring Ireland on board and more broadly? Do you think Ireland's low tax strategy can continue if and when a global deal is done? Maybe just on that latter point in other words is you know, can can we still in this country expect to be able to maintain Or be a low tax environment in the way that we have been Yes, I do think so because ireland is a market-driven economy And I as long as I've been in public life. I've still not been able to alter the rules of supply and demand And again an educated workforce the gateway to europe is ireland and the commitment that ireland is made internationally everywhere I think we'll stand the test of time. So I think that it's not worrisome these discussions will Proceed and I do want to say once again as I did at the outset The president's had a couple of positions as you know as it relates to the global minimum tax Proposal so that's the reason that Even though I've talked to the secretary a number of times that I've refrained from embracing anything as we proceed with negotiations That sounds like a man with a lot of experience in this field. I see that also echoes a question from jack and scars You know it's like as a question from jack power in the Irish times and I suppose he's got an additional dimension to his question He says How does this congressman and neo feel the field ireland's lightly opposition or hesitancy to any move to raise its 12 and a half percent Corporate tax to a proposed higher global minimum rate will be received in the united states In other words, I suppose what's I suppose maybe just more generally that question But what's the perception of Ireland and and our tax regime at the moment? Is there is there a reasonable understanding of why we why we have the rate we have and why we have positioned ourselves the way that we have Well, I think it's uh For me, I've understood clearly uh why that occurred. I thought that for a long period of time that they had a very Assertive position as it related to global tax But at the same time in an international Economy the clear measure For all of us is to harmonize international tax rates I mean treaty shopping is unhealthy for the global economy And I think that those who simply move from one jurisdiction in tax to another for the purpose of avoiding tax Needs to be smooth So I think that with the president at 15 as of yesterday The secretary having been negotiating regularly with allies across european union I think that the president's position is sound and let me just say this as well As you know, I want a global agreement between the united states and european union In terms of trade. I want to embrace t-tip once again I've talked to catherine tide talked to the president about this And I am all in On an agreement with european union that in and of itself will invite a harmonized tax regime Okay, um, just the um The the we had uh larry summers was on our one of our platforms there last week or was it the week before And he was he was moderated an event an event moderated by our chief economist dano bryan Who else has a question here just uh following up on larry summers? conversation with us, which which he says and while um While the president favors big federal government stimulus package He believes that the bite administration plans go too far, right? And do you share any of his concerns? And of course, I heard what you said earlier on that these things are evolving perhaps But is it too big? Is it too big to to to to to to be sustained in terms of the support for the congress? Well, I think great satisfaction in the fact that speaker polosi and I and secretary manucci and the former secretary of the treasury We wrote the cures act in a matter of hours in terms of the parameters It saved the american economy But that was really not stimulus That was trying to buy some time to get past the pandemic The pandemic was not related to malfeasance or corruption. It was related to an international pandemic And I think that now build back better should be the path forward and I agree with the president's thrust In addition to which I think that america's uh Infrastructure is in really bad shape. Let me stay a word of compliment to you because you spoke to me about this with the completion Of the new airport in dublin. It was spectacular I remember talking to you and complimenting ireland on its commitment to infrastructure You know, one of the things that the ireland benefited from that everybody Should recognize you took full advantage of the early stages of european union You made broad investments in infrastructure everywhere and it's paid a handsome dividend and in the united states, I think that we need to regenerate our interests in infrastructure and Broadband sewer and water highways roadways bridges airports We are fully capable of doing it and within the proposal that the president has offered I think that there's considerable room to accomplish just that Very good, and you wouldn't be prepared at this stage. No doubt to put a sort of the the likely final figure on this in terms of What about amount to in I think that's a no I have a goal in mind Okay, very good. We'll hear about it in june You'll like this michael as I have said to committee members on the ways of each committee For the moment keep it vague Okay, okay, thank you. It's good Just um, I think I've heard you speak before congressman about all um Reshoring, you know, and of course it's become all the more topical now relevant and maybe Critical maybe in some respects because of the pandemic What's your current position in terms of the repatriation of u.s companies? Back to the united states and of course within that do you see kind of a serious downside? implications for Ireland No, I don't and I will say this that There are a lot of issues that arise that go well beyond the simplicity of stating that we want to reassure there are competitive costs That will have to be addressed for example, we discovered I think with the ppp programs That a lot of the masks that we did not have a uh a substantial majority of They can be replicated and constructed in in Countries that have low wages Not Ireland, but there are other parts of the world particularly in Asia And trying to reassure Is to run up against again the law of supply and demand so we have to be careful on that We ran to a real problem for example, uh with ventilators It is still very difficult to inventory ventilators So there are some realities here as it relates to economics and we have to address that but I think in the Area of computer chips That's something that we can address. I think right now our economy is a bit Stalled on that very issue of Of uh making sure that our our automobile sector for example is able to secure the necessary hardware and software And that largely plays out against a global economy Mentioned there uh chairman just the relations with the european union and I think it's for all of us It's gratifying the extent to which the president biden, you know has put the european union back back at the center of of us politics and To what extent I mean i'm obviously within that the whole china dimension Comes in I mean can you see a situation where europe can reasonably navigate its way between United states and china or do we have to be all in with the united states? I think that uh, we remind ourselves here That there are 500 million consumers in european union. I think that that makes for a grand opportunity for american business Not to secure a strong financial footing What I object to with china is that in a sovereign form of capitalism That they are able to bully their way to quick decision making even if it's not sturdy decision making They are making advances in africa and central america and south america and europe although the europeans I think have now become a bit more suspicious of their overall intent The most important relationship. I think in the world is that between the united states and china And making sure that we try to as best we can navigate those challenging moments is critical But not to miss the point that we intend to be fully invested in european union and I think getting that trade agreement up that lagged in the uh Obama administration and then was thwarted in the trump administration should be a priority for president biden. I've expressed that to him Pretty good. I think I was with you the night in congress in 2013 when uh, When president obama, you know endorsed t-tip or the beginning of negotiations on t-tip Obviously there's a bit of water under the bridge since then so let's see where it goes Maybe just pick up a question from uh, kevin laden who is from our iiea sister organization in brussels He says looking to the future. What steps are most helpful in establishing closer eu-us relations within which us irish and uk relations can flourish um so well, I mean, I think that uh, we want to make sure that uh, that relationship remains strong And at the same time, I think that one of the challenges that uh brexit brought about was the threat to the border in the north of ireland and I think It's a great reminder here for all that the champions or the brexit tears They told everybody that this was going to be easy that this was going to be simple That their divorce from european union Would not come with any attached economic laws And those of us who have participated in big trade agreements including the recent usmca in the united states The largest in the history of the world That we knew there would be difficulties that would come with with brexit So I think that uh, we don't I want to make sure That in this relationship with is profound I want to make sure that there is no threat to The success we've had not just with the good friday agreement But with making sure that it remains a template for the rest of the world to examine For their own long-standing challenges Okay and just um, I have a question here from From a colleague of mine at the institute. He just talks about whether I suppose He says are you concerned that the u.s economy is overheating? Given the latest april 2021 inflation figures of 4.2 and the low Job growth numbers reported and in a related question How can the u.s improve its labor supply in the coming years as it recovers from the pandemic? And maybe that's just bring us our segue us a little bit into the immigration issue as well Sure, I think the supply is going to catch up with the man's time goes on I think that coming out of The pandemic I hesitate to say that we're on the other side of it, but I think that we've made extraordinary progress and my own sense is that Jay Powell at the federal reserve board has done a really fine job of navigating these difficult months so He has suggested that interest rates are going to remain where they are for the foreseeable future But he also indicated that they were going to examine some of their current policies as it relates to bond buying In international markets, so I'm optimistic. I feel pretty good about I think that we do have to keep an eye on inflation But I think for the moment we should see it more as a bit of a hiccup As opposed to a long-term policy Yeah, I think that's something that philip lehnard are the ecb chief economist yesterday I think echoed in a webinar we had with him yesterday with pascal donny who but maybe I could just come to those events of the 6th of january chairman and a question here from Bill Emma who's the former editor-in-chief of the economist magazine and trinity college double the long room hub and for arts and humanities and bill is looking for reassurance, so he wants to know he says Many europeans felt relieved last november and again on january 6th at the fact that the u.s. Democratic institutions had proven Resilient against assault and insurrection, but it is plain that the assault is continuing What cannon will the white house and the democratic party do to make sure that the u.s. democracy? That u.s. Democracy will not just be protected but also restored As will still be intact in five to ten years time. He just says please reassure us Well, i'm happy to reassure you we invest here in america in our institutions not in personalities And I think that there's one who was trapped in the capital during those grim hours My office is right off the floor of the house of representatives and I will say that Not only were they at the door, but the capital police inside of my office had a gunshot now I also want to say that An underreported part of what happened on that day was at 3 30 a.m We marched back into the house of representatives and certified the election of joe biden as president of the united states This nonsense that some are peddling that there was some falsity to the election outcome is just that nonsense And I think that again it's our institutions. It's our constitution. It's the bill of rights But the truth of the matter is that the elections in america in the last round were amongst the most accurate in american history The idea that there was widespread fraud is crazy And I think that those forces of the insurgency And that's just what it was an insurgency It was not a threat to democracy because of our institutions I do think it would be more helpful if we could all speak in unison about those events I heard a republican congressman. This is not a partisan partisan statement. He said last week to look like an usual tourist event At the same time there's a photo of him holed up in the house of representatives with security guards pushing against the wall So when I I was A matter of fact, I can tell you when you talk about the irony of this conversation I was on the call with brandon louis When the office was assailed And I I think that when I look back at that It is critical to remember That we certified the election as we were supposed to do on january 6 hours after this assault on the capital But uh, uh, chairman just but obviously america seems to us on the outside and perhaps on the inside too to remain deeply divided and how can this um fracture or these fractures be healed and How significant is former president trump in u.s politics at this time?  I don't think that that's in dispute and at the same time I think that the problem is it's the challenges that are presented by our primary system where parties compete in an inter-party electioneering And I think that his support is more important than a republican primary that it is in a general election And I think that that's what's kept a lot of republicans at bay But we've also embraced that america for a considerable period of time much to my disappointment this anti-government talk And that meant that a lot of people got elected to congress and to the senate by running against congress And the challenge with that is that they can never come to the conclusion of a successful agreement because somehow The institutions that they ran against in their belief or at least their profess beliefs mean that It can't happen And I dispute that But in addition to which I do think that the two parties it's the base of the two parties that is Certainly orchestrated by a careful effort to agitate the base and keep them charged up 24 hours a day when People like myself speaker polosi and joe biden and others. We're institutionalists And I think this polarized is charge debate that is amplified by social media by twitter 24 hours a day half truths suspicions These crazed comments that that are witnessed by these conspiracy Theories it takes days to knock those down. Sometimes it takes weeks to knock them down The problem is they gain traction in the interim and I think we should be dismayed by it. But at the same time all of us We need a civil authorities to push back against the crazed nature of these challenges Okay, just uh, if I may just talk in general terms, uh, chairman about irish america Obviously the question here from uh, colleague of mine, alex connelly is a researcher in the iiea. He says What does the future of irish america look like in a more multicultural and diverse america? And what does this mean for us relations with ireland and the e you and I suppose the more broad broader question is How is it going to be possible? to Maintain the level of interest that you represent for example and uh, you know on irish issues Is this a declining phenomenon and how can we best protect what is an extraordinary? Relationship, you know, which is uh, which is an underpinned by people like your your good self Well, I think that the the cultural achievements Of ireland certainly helped to keep the argument refreshed and I think that uh It's it's also This profound belief. How could you imagine america without the irish? and in succeeding generations, uh I think that many of those loyalties have remained intact And I would also point out that the genius of america was this proposition that I support called the unity without uniformity But I also think that culturally many of us adhere to this strong belief that it was the antecedents of grandparents and parents who struggled That codel that I hosted some years ago one of the most striking parts about it with 15 members of the delegation, I think Which were met with great hospitality in ireland And everybody had at least one parent or grandparent who was born in ireland That's not that long ago. So I think that uh, we are united in our belief that culturally You could be a grand citizen of the united states participate fully but also Place great honor On what it was that we learned along the way from parents and grandparents who left that island That's very good Okay. Um, so obviously I just for my own time there just appreciate more particularly just that they're probably an incredible connection it represents and And obviously something very important for a small country. We saw that manifest in the case of brexit, obviously You were here on a codel because the christian delegation I think in in april 2019 or rather famous one with the with the speaker, uh, dancy pelosi uh with dancy pelosi at the time and So I I don't know whether You know the The prospect of a further search visit is Is possible or have you any plans for a visit which would further give you a chance to amplify your views on these issues Well, as you know, I'm always happy to amplify my views on ireland and uh I will also say to you michael because we work very closely Through a lot of years there on some very very, uh, difficult issues One of the most satisfying moments of what has been a long career now dating back to the hunger strikes Was standing next to the speaker or what formerly had been the border between the republic and the north And to have the speaker say and for me to reinforce There could be no trade agreement with the uk if there's any diminished interest in that border success And at the same time if there was any restoration of the border, there would be no chance Of a bilateral trade agreement with the uk I I look back at that with not only fondness but determination but to stand there And say that the good friday agreement where everybody had to give up something To bring about the new day was accomplished And do you do you I mean you've reiterated it there chairman The fact that's a no trade deal with a you know If there's any threat to the the restoration or just any question of the restoration of the border The hard a hard border of the underwater Have you been able to and clearly at the uh, that message i'm sure has got through to to london Um, is this something that that that you've had an opportunity to articulate before as forcefully as you've done here With the uk government, whether in washington or indeed in london and directly And to what extent, you know, have they taken that on board in terms of their expectations? Uh about a trade deal with the united states and where where is that trade deal of the prospects that trade deal at the moment? Well, the trade deal is in the hands of the united states trade representative who worked for me And catherine ty and she understands fully because she's been in uh conversations with the uk Look, we recognize that a trade agreement with the uk is desirable And At the same time the united states is a guarantor of the good friday agreement i've expressed this as recently as this week and uh I thought very good conversations But we need everybody to recognize That the three strands of the good friday agreement Need to be acknowledged and honored and For those of us who have supported the nationalist position for decades our Place in this argument was clear We were able to intervene to stop the gun running that came from the united states And at the same time that would mean that there would be good faith negotiations And in strand two of the good friday agreement Dublin Belfast it has worked I recall years of being with tom foley as the speaker of the house Speaker of the house on a bus traveling between darry and donna gall Where the bus was stopped and searched by british soldiers With night vision and full guns Now you cross that border and your phone pinks That's the success that we've witnessed and despite some of the rumbles Uh, I think that there still is enough goodwill to see this through But I have encouraged the uk to verbally Acknowledge the success of the good friday agreement more vigorously Okay, and do you think uh, determine that there's um An necessity or an attention or an expectation That president biden will appoint a special envoy. Do you think such an envoy is required again? And what would you see that envoy maybe achieving and and bringing about in current surface houses? I think there's always a bit of a challenge as we know with an envoy because george mitchell set such a An extraordinary standard and I think that always within the state department There is always this suggestion that somehow that the envoy works for the president as opposed to the secretary of state And there is as you know, even within our framework of governance There's always that bit of attention between even the national security advisor whose office is in the white house And the secretary of state whose office is across the botomic I think that that needs to always remain fresh in our conversation. So I think with these bumps that are occurring I think it's again desirable to appoint an envoy I urge president trump in a conversation to do that as well I think that uh, we were distracted by a lot of other issues. So there is a role for an envoy. Yes As sooner rather than later or I mean obviously Sooner rather than later. I think that it helped it might help smooth the process uh right now I think that the disruptions that is occurring over the protocol is One that should have been predictable The north voted to stay in european union And I think that the rumblings across the uk In a long Well in many ways is a result of brexit And I think that it was inevitable that this was going to happen But not to miss the point that the the north did vote to stay in european union And chairman you you've had many many dealings obviously with our own governments here and obviously with successive uk governments as well Have you been a little bit surprised about the uh, you know, just the way in which the negotiations leading to the withdrawal agreement Were conducted and maybe the The the the complications that have arisen since then about something that was signed sealed and delivered last december uh, where are you know I suppose we have expectations of very high standards In the way these things are normally done Has the um has the the train of events and the complications that have arisen and the disputes over interpretation Can these be regarded in any way normal? I think that they can be resolved But also let me say this is a a grand compliment to the irish government And to the parties on the nationalist side in the north Every political party in the republic has carefully aligned themselves with each other as it relates to the issue of the border As it relates to the issue of the achievement of the good friday agreement I can't tell you how delightful it was with that codel that you mentioned the speaker polosi To hear all of the political parties in the republican and across the north on the Certainly on the nationalist side and even a bit more subdued with the u up as i've talked to them many times that They want this success to proceed And I think it makes it a good deal easier for those of us who through the friends of ireland in the united states Have helped bring about to see this day through so it's refreshing to me refreshing. I think to the friends of ireland that we are Certainly all singing from the same hymn though as it relates to the good friday agreement Okay, just a question here from a colleague In the another colleague in the institute he says why do we appreciate the fantastic links ireland has through senior representatives like yourself Of course president of biden and others around them Does ireland need to be realistic about its relations with the us and respect? That the us uk relationship is more important um, for example, uh, he decides the fact that uh, you know, we're still waiting for A new us ambassador to be appointed to ireland Do you have anything you want to share with us in that data point and more generally about how the us weighs up? I suppose its relationships with two very important Friends and I think we always said before we have a a unique relationship if the uk has a special relationship Are this unique? But how do you weigh up that and how do you how do you come down? I mean, obviously your heart might be one place, but maybe at times your head is somewhere else No, I think that those two are are are easily aligned and I also would say that Given the pandemic and the economic challenges we've had I think that the administration has been a bit slow with many of their diplomatic postings But I don't think anybody should read anything into it beyond the fact that it's the pandemic and it's the economy Which is we all know simultaneously linked. So I expect I certainly have heard from a number of people who are interested in In being the ambassador that's for sure And which I won't share with you, but uh, I will tell you that Always remember this and this is a direct response to that very superb question North and south ireland has a little bit more than six million people The fact that they command such a center stage in american diplomacy is wild It's extraordinary that countries like that meet with the president of leader of the t-shock would meet with the president That the diplomatic corps is all over capitol hill in mohals that a great job In his a tenure like you did and the many in between But I do think it's extraordinary and we should never lose sight of that And it's the old argument that I've embraced many times when we reach our potential Our potential expands Just uh, maybe just as we were speaking about the border there And I know you're very familiar with the could fight agreement at the provisions within us for a referendum on On on irish unity in certain circumstances. I suppose the question here is do you support the holding of a referendum on irish unity? And do you have any particular timeframe within which you'd like to see such a referendum taking place? Well, I support the referendum because it's included in the good friday agreement I mean that's part of the that was part of the the uh place that we found uh Agreement and I think that that's really up to the people who live on the island That's to determine when that border pole would take place that I think is really for the again People in the north and in the republic to decide that outcome, but I think it's inevitable It's an eventuality. It's it's going to happen And if I might not Trust pass but also to say this I think that it's the obligation of those of us who have been supporters of the national question to Eventually convince unionism that they have no threat to their identity In the united island. I think that's reality And I think that uh, I have pointed out many times That the founder of my political party the founders of my political party didn't share my religious background But through the evolution of time I think generally what they supported in terms of economics and the Principles of the common man and common woman were ones that I am most irish in america one time adhered to that's changed a bit because you know, there are more More irish that are now less identified with the democratic party, but I at the same time not to miss The overriding consideration here and that is The genius of the good friday agreement is if you want to be irish You can be irish if you want to be british you can be british And if you want to be northern irish you can be northern irish I think that's often lost and I have reminded unionism of that. You know, I stay in contact with them I've had a strong relationship with many of the the uh unionist political leaders over many many years They frequently would make the argument. This is not a put down They frequently would make the argument that they couldn't get a hearing in washington They did get a hearing. They just didn't get agreement Thank you And I know congressman you were instrumenting making sure that they did get that that that access and that they They had an opportunity to present their That their views and that's important clearly that they were able to do so Can I just come back maybe um as we're coming a little bit close to the end Come back to president, uh, biden, of course, who's who's indeed one of our own just like like you are So could um, you know, there's been a massive change of of of um of tone in the united states following his accession to the to the to the fight has to what extent is it a kind of a Is it a more of a change of tone than a change in substance? And maybe china's one good example of that that maybe the tone may have changed a little bit at least And certainly has changed in europe on europe as well But um, so couldn't make it to characterize the president. Uh, you know very well, you know better than than than than most What do you think he has achieved I suppose in the first hundred days or we've gone past a hundred days now What has he achieved and what's been the difference? I think he's calm the waters and if I might just uh offer a keen observation What a relief it is to know that we're going into the weekend without a twitter storm coming from the president of the united states And I think that uh, not only was it the use of of his, uh technical mobility the former president But it was the ability to change the nature of the argument 24 hours a day I think joe biden as I noted is an institutionalist. He understands that there are rhythms to governance But his proposals and uh his own candidacy still they remain pretty popular with the american people He is genuinely a man of the united states senate And he understands again the evolutionary negotiating procedures that take place and in that body Uh, george bush senior was a friend of mine and served on the ways of means committee when he was in congress He had a very funny line at one point. He said that the united states senate He was convinced was the only place on earth that could really slow down the aging process And I call that up because that's joe biden He's going to make sure you cross the t's and thought the eyes as you go forward But he's also going to embrace reasonable policies He's a man of the institution, but he's also a man of this time So it's a really for me And I must tell you uh not to be responding these alllandish statements sometimes 10 or 12 times in one given new cycle, and I think that that's joe biden We haven't yet found I think iron shrews for coming to harris, uh, but give us a bit of time and I'm sure we will But anyway, confidence in you Excellent But obviously I mean Who knows who's going to be in the white house down the years, but do you think that and the irish? And the irish issues and you just I think focused in there on just the the the the privileges that we have And I think they are extraordinary. We're an extraordinarily privileged position How are we going to protect that? How are we going to? I mean, we've come up We've dealt with this to some extent, but how are we going to protect it? You mentioned culture as well. What is the single Best thing that an irish government should now be doing to to reinforce that those linkages and perhaps Those in power won't always be irish american Well, I think you need to stay with it as you do. I mean one of the things that's great about ireland You send your best to the united states I mean in the years that i've worked with the ambassadorial corps and you might expect I have A lot of context with a lot of governments because of the ways the means committee assignments That we have but the quality of what ireland sends to the united states in terms of the diplomatic corps is remarkable And I think continuing those efforts Across the board makes a good deal of sense to make sure that the t-shirt is here to make sure that we're there And to make sure that those cultural links those political links and and now those economic links In the number of people who in america work at irish companies is extraordinary and vice versa so we want to maintain those relationships and I saw jack kennedy Michael the day before the election in 1960 I was 11 years old And my mother kept us home from school because his last visits that night day were in springfield and in boston And as you might expect he got a pretty good Welcome in both places on the day before that election But that wasn't the beginning of this relationship the beginning of the relationship was largely through struggle and it was uh those the success stories of that massive immigration story that took place In the post famine era Were millions and millions of irish emigrated to america You know for many of us that's only still grandparents And I think that continuing those links As i've described politically culturally and economically Can best be maintained by that constant presence and vigilance That the irish government and those of us who are supportive of ireland's extraordinary achievements for such a small country remain Relevant and at the top of the agenda Well, thank you for saying that chairman Maybe just if i've got we're coming up on the hour now, so we're going to finish promptly but just Just maybe come back to the committee your own committee the ways it means it means committee, which of course is is the preeminent committee and in the house a prestigious committee And one of you know, which obviously you you're the privilege of sharing at the moment But this is a question from a former colleague of mine peter gunning and it relates to kind of he wants to know Maybe it's a definition of a question, but maybe it goes beyond that as well But peter wants to know He says in the discussion about infrastructure infrastructure the definition of the term and its breadth And it seemed important is the u.s. Measure as emerging on the broader or the narrow interpretation Uh, it's pretty obvious We're Traveling down the road now of the broader interpretation. So it's not just the road that takes us to work It's the child care that it keeps doesn't work So I think that those are realities I think that labor participation rates have to be addressed in the united states I also think that the issue of productivity increases loom large And the best way to improve the quality of life In america is certainly to create greater paths to efficiency And that's what the presidents are proposing to do I mean, I think that the earned income tax credit the child credit and the child dependent credit all relate to work that I've done I'm proposing to make them permanent. There's a bit of a disagreement with the president on that I don't think it's a big one to be honest And I think that we're going to find an outcome that everybody can live with but I do think that As the president has prescribed these opportunities. They should be fully debated and embraced So just one one final question if I may congressman just It's on the climate side of things because obviously the president has come out very strongly to To to reconnect The united states with the With the powers agreement as a question here from one of our researchers Luca Callan white He says the bite administration has made many changes to us climate policies such as we joined the powers agreement Committing to net zero Emissions and major investment in clean energy. Why is federal carbon price so far missing from this suite of measures? Well, I think reducing the carbon footprint as described by the question Is the desirable goal And I think even as we talk about a Net based emissions program. It's neutral. We understand that that means there are a series of trade-offs So I think that the president embracing carbon neutrality by 2030 Is a very sound goal carbon pricing. I think can be met with a lot of different avenues I won't volunteer with my own personal position is on carbon pricing Because I do intend to get these initiatives over the goal line and I want to make sure that the conversations remain fluid Okay, one very one final final final question. I mean obviously and links and transport links between and and the connection between Ireland the united states has been disrupted because of the pandemic It's not as easy to travel in both directions in the way that it was When how optimistic would you be that we will soon see the irish traveling, uh, you know in the in numbers to the united states and more particularly also vice versa I know we're still working our way through the pandemic at both sides of the atlantic, but uh on the pandemic front Are you what puts the mood over there now?  I've been through these airports now for the last two weeks Back and forth to washington. I've got to tell you These airports are packed again so I think that uh, I would advise my constituents who have a keen interest in the dingle peninsula There's still nothing like a good stop An inish moor in august Well very good. Well, we hope that circumstances will allow that all to be resumed. I mean and I think we in both directions So congressman chairman Richie, this has been wonderful and thank you for facilitating this We've covered a vast range of questions everything from global tax to Ireland itself and our border issues. You've been very generous with your time and more than forthright in here Your views as usual. We appreciate it. We would love to welcome you to the institute in person sometime in the future We'd also be very grateful if you could put in a word to president biden And uh communicate to him that he would be very welcome at the institute at any time as well in the future Should he visit arland or indeed should he wish to do it virtually? But in any event the connection is rich and we really do appreciate it We would love to see you in person in circumstances commit You can bet on it. I think I can safely speak for the president as well Okay, I would you would you would visit a codel a professional delegation We're talking about that right now. Yes. As a matter of fact, uh, that conversation is much alive right now Okay, and do you think that might be imminent or have been that it would in the year I think oh it would be within a year. Yes. I think we were talking about the fall Okay, okay Well, look we look forward to seeing you when you're in dublin and the best of luck with your committee work And most particularly the best of luck and an appreciation for what the connections that you make with arland and our issues Thank you very much indeed All the best michael. Okay. Thank you


Hello everyone and welcome to this CUBE Conversation where we're going to go deep into system performance. We're here with an expert, Kim Lanar is the principal performance architect at Broadcom. Kim, great to see you. Thanks so much for coming on. Thanks so much, Dave. So you have a deep background in performance, performance assessment, benchmarking, modeling. Tell us a little bit about your background, your role. Well, thanks. So I've been a storage performance engineer and architect for about 22 years. And specifically I've been with Broadcom for I think next month is going to be my 14 year mark. So what I do there is I really, initially I built and I managed their international performance team. But about six years ago, I moved back into architecture. And my roles right now are as I generate performance projections for all of our next generation products. And then I also work on marketing material and I interface with a lot of the customers and debugging customer issues and looking at how our customers are actually using our storage. Great, now we have a graphic that we want to share talks to how storage has evolved over the past decade. So my question is what changes have you seen in storage and how has that impacted the way you approach benchmarking? And in this graphic, we got sort of big four items that impact performance, memory, processor, IO, pathways and the storage media itself. Walk us through this data, if you would. Sure, so what I put together is a little bit of what we've seen over the past 15 to 20 years. So I've been doing this for about 22 years and kind of going back and focusing a little bit on the storage, we look back at hard just, they ruled for nearly, they had almost 50 years of ruling and our first hard drive that came out back in the 1950s was only capable of five megabytes in capacity and one and a half IOs per second. It had almost a full second in terms of seek time. So we've come a long way since then, but when I first came on, we were looking at ultra 320 SCSI. And one of the biggest memories that I have of that was my office is located close to our tech support. And I could hear the first question was always, what's your termination like? And so we had some challenges with SCSI and then we moved on into SAS and SATA protocols. And we continued to move on. But right now, back in the early 2000s when I came on board, the best drives really could do maybe 400 IOs per second, maybe 250 megabytes per second with millisecond response times. And so when I was benchmarking way back when it was always like, well, IOps are IOps. We were always faster than what the drives could do. And that was just how it was. The drives were always the bottleneck in the system. And so things started changing though by the early 2000s, mid 2000s, we started seeing different technologies come out. We started seeing virtualization and multi-tenant infrastructure is becoming really popular. And then we had cloud computing that was well on the horizon. And so at this point, we're like, well, wait a minute, we really can't make processors that much faster. And so everybody got excited when Cloverton and the home came out when they had two cores per processor and four cores per processor. And so we saw a little time period where actually the processing capability kind of pulled ahead of everybody else. And memory was that if falling behind we had old DDR2667, it was new at the time but we only had maybe one or two memory channels per processor. And then in 2007, we saw disk capacity hit one terabyte. And we started seeing a little bit of an imbalance because we were seeing these drives are getting massive but their performance per drive was not really kind of keeping up. So now we see a revolution around 2010.  We were joking at the time, hey, you know what? Wonder if we could make a RAID array out of these little USB disks. They were just so fast. The idea was actually kind of crazy until we started seeing it actually happen. So in 2010, SSD started revolutionizing storage. And the first SSDs that we really worked with are these Pliant LS300s. And they were amazing because they were so over provision that they had almost the same read and write performance. But to go from a drive that could do maybe 400 IOs per second to a drive that could do 40,000 plus IOs per second really changed our thought process about how our storage controller could actually try and keep up with the rest of the system. So we started falling behind, right? That was a big challenge for us. And then in 2014, NVMe came around as well. So now we've got these drives, they're 30 terabytes. They can do one and a half million IOs per second and over 6,000 megabytes per second, but they were expensive. So people started relegating SSDs more towards tiered storage or cash. And as the prices of these drives kind of came down, they became a lot more mainstream. And then the memory channel started picking up and they started doubling every few years. And we're looking now at DVR54800. And now we're looking at cores that used to go from two to four cores per processor up to 48 with some of the latest different processes that are out there. So our ability to consume the computing and the storage resources, it's astounding. It's like that whole saying build it and they will come because I'm always amazed. I'm like, how are we gonna possibly utilize all this memory bandwidth? How are we gonna utilize all these cores? But we do. And the trick to this is having just a balanced infrastructure is really critical because if you have a performance mismatch between your server and your storage, you really lose a lot of productivity and it does impact your revenue. So that's such a key point, Patrick. But you're not slide up again with the four points. And that last point that you made, Kim, about balance. And so here you have these electronic speeds with memory and IO. And then you've got the spinning disk, this mechanical disk. You mentioned that SSD kind of changed the game. It used to be, when I looked at benchmarks, it was always the, you know, the D stage bandwidth of the cache out to the spinning disk was always the bottleneck and you know, you go back to the days of, you know, it's symmetrics, right? The huge back end disk bandwidth was how they dealt with that but you're taught. And then you had things, the oxymoron of the day was high spin speed disks of a high performance disk, right? Compared to memories. And so the next chart that we have is show some really amazing performance increases over the years. And so you see these bars on the left hand side, it looks at historical performance for 4K random IOPS and on the right hand side, it's the storage controller performance for sequential bandwidth from 2008 to 2022. That 22 is that yellow line. And just it's astounding the increases. I wonder if you could tell us what we're looking at here. When did SSD come in and how did that affect your thinking? So I remember back in 2007, we were kind of on the precipice of SSDs. We saw it, the writing was on the wall. We had our first three gig sass and SATA capable HBAs that had come out. And it was a shock because we're like, wow, we're going to really quickly become the bottleneck once this becomes more mainstream. And you're so right though about people working, building these massive hard drive base back ends in order to handle kind of that tiered architecture that we were seeing that back in the early 2010s kind of when the pricing was just so sky high. And I remember looking at our sass controllers our very first one, and that was when I first came in at 2007, we had just launched our first sass controller. We're so proud of ourselves. And I started going, how many IOPS can this thing even handle? We didn't have, we couldn't even attach enough drives to figure it out. So what we would do was we'd do these little tricks where we would do a 512 byte read and we would do it on a 4K boundary so that it was actually reading sequentially from the disk but we were handling these discrete IOPS.  Well, that's just not going to hit it anymore. Bandwidth wise, we were doing great. Really our limitation in our bottleneck on bandwidth was always either the host or the backend. So on our controllers, basically there were three bottlenecks for our storage controllers. The first one is the bottleneck from the host to the controller. So that is typically a PCIe connection. And then there's another bottleneck on the controller to the disk. And that's really the number of ports that we have. And then the third one is the disks themselves. So in typical storage, that's what we look at. And we say, well, how do we improve this? So some of these are just kind of evolutionary, such as PCIe generations. And we're going to talk a little bit about that. But some of them are really revolutionary. And those are some of the things that we've been doing over the last five or six years to try and make sure that we are no longer the bottleneck and we can enable these really, really fast drives. So can I ask you a question? I'm sorry to interrupt you, but on these blue bars here. So are these all spinning disks? I presume out years they're not. Like when did flash come into these blue bars? Was that, you said 27, you started looking at it, but on these benchmarks, is it all spinning disk? Is it all flash? How should we interpret that? No, no, initially there were actually all hard drives. And the way that we would identify the Max IS would be by doing very small sequential reads to these hard drives. We just didn't have SSDs at that point. And then somewhere around 2010 is where we, so very early in that chart, we were able to start incorporating SSD technology into our benchmarking. And so what you're looking at here is really the Max that our controller is capable of. So we would throw as many drives as we could and do what we needed to do in order to just make sure our controller was the bottleneck and what can we expose? So the drive, then when SSD came in was no longer the bottleneck.  I mean, I think in the left-hand side, we've built this out pad. You had 170X increase for the 4K random IOPS and you got a 20X increase for the sequential bandwidth. How were you able to achieve that level of performance over time? Well, in terms of the sequential bandwidth, really those come naturally by increases in the PCIe or the SAS generation. So we just make sure we stay out of the way and we enable that bandwidth. But the IOPS, that's where it got really, really tricky. So we had to start thinking about different things. So first of all, we started optimizing all of our pathways, all of our IO management. We increased the processing capabilities on our IO controllers. We added more on-chip memory. We started putting in IO accelerators, these harbor accelerators. We put in SAS core kind of enhancements. We even went and improved our driver to make sure that our driver was as thin as possible so we can make sure that we can enable all the IOPS on systems. But a big thing happened a couple of generations ago was we started introducing something called tri-capable controllers, which means that you could attach MVME, you could attach SAS, or you could attach SATA. So you could have this really amazing deployment of a storage infrastructure based around your customized needs and your cost requirements by using one controller. Yeah, so anybody who's ever been to a trade show where they were displaying a glass case with a Winchester disk drive, for example, you see it spinning and it's actuators moving. You go, wow, that's so fast. Well, no, that's like a tortoise, well, it's slower, it's like a snail compared to the systems. So in way, life was easy back in those days because when you did a right to a disk, you had plenty of time to do stuff, right? And now it's changed. And so I want to talk about gen three versus gen four and how all this relates to what's new in gen four and the impacts of PCIe. You have a chart here that you shared with us that talks to that. I wonder if you could elaborate on that, Kim. Sure, but first, you know, you said something that kind of hit my funny bone there. And I remember I made a visit once about 15 or 20 years ago to IBM and this gentleman actually had one of those old ones in his office and he referred to them as disk files. And until the day he retired, he'd never stopped calling them disk files. And it's kind of funny to be a part of that history. Yeah, yeah, DASD, they used to call it. SD DASD, I used to see it all kind of thing, you know. Oh, you don't know what it was like back then. But yeah, but nowadays we've got it quite easily enabled because back then, you know, we had SD DASD, all that. And then, you know, ATA and then SCSI. Well, now we've got PCIe. And what's fabulous about PCIe is that it just has a, the generations are already planned out. It's incredible. You know, we're looking at right now, GEN3 moving to GEN4. And that's a lot about what we're going to be talking about. And that's what we're trying to test out. What is GEN4 PCIe going to buy us? And it really is, it's fantastic. PCIe came around about 18 years ago and Broadcom is, we do participate and contribute to the PCIe SIG, which is who develops the standards for PCIe. But the host and both our host interface and our MVME disk utilizes standards. So this is really, really a big deal, really critical for us. But if you take a look here, you can see that in terms of the capabilities of it, it's really is buying us a lot. So most of our drives right now, MVME drives, tend to be buy four. And a lot of people will connect them. And what that means is it's four lanes of MVME. And a lot of people that will connect them either at buy one or buy two, kind of depending what their storage infrastructure will allow. But the majority of them you could buy are there. So as you can see right now, we've gone from eight gigatransfers per second to 16 gigatransfers per second. And what that means is for a buy four, we're going from one drive being able to do 4,000 to do an almost 8,000 megabytes per second. And in terms of those 4K IOPS that really evade us, they're really, really tough sometimes to squeeze out of these drives. But now we've got one million all the way to two million. It's just, it's insane, just the increase in performance. And there's a lot of other standards that are gonna be sitting on top of PCIe. So it's not going away anytime soon. We've got open standards like CXL and things like that. But we also got graphics cards. You've got all of your host connections that are also sitting on PCIe. So it's fantastic, it's backwards, it's forwards compatible and it really is going to be our future. So this is all well and good. And I think I really believe that a lot of times in our industry, the challenges in the plumbing are underappreciated. But let's make it real for the audience because we have all these new workloads coming out, AI, heavily data oriented. So I want to get your thoughts on what types of workloads are going to benefit from Gen 4 performance increases. In other words, what does it mean for application performance? You shared a chart that lists some of the key workloads and I wonder if we could go through those. Yeah, I put a large list of different workloads that are able to consume large amounts of data, whether or not it's in small or large kind of bytes of data. But as you know right now, and I said earlier, our ability to consume these compute and storage resources is amazing. So you build it and we'll use it. And the world's data, we're expected to grow 61% to 175 Zettabytes by the year 2025, according to IDC. So that's just a lot of data to manage. It's a lot of data, it's something that's sitting around. But to be useful, you have to actually be able to access it and that's kind of where we come in. So who is accessing it, what kind of applications? I spent a lot of time trying to understand that. And recently I attended a virtual conference, SDC. And what I like to do when I attend these conferences is to try to figure out what the buzzwords are. What's everybody talking about? Because every year it's a little bit different. But this year was edge, edge everything. And so I kind of put edge on there first. And even you can ask anybody what's edge computing and it's gonna mean a lot of different things but basically it's all the computing outside of the cloud that's happening typically at the edge of the network. So it tends to encompass a lot of real-time processing on those instant data. So in the data is usually coming from either users or different sensors. It's that last mile. It's where we kind of put a lot of our content caching. And I uncovered some interesting stuff when I was attending this virtual conference and they say only about 25% of all the usable data will actually even reach the data center. The rest is ephemeral and it's localized locally and in real-time. So what it does is in the goal of edge computing is to try and reduce bandwidth costs for these kind of IoT devices that go over long distance. So but the reality is the growth of real-time applications that require these kind of local processing are gonna drive this technology forward over the coming years. So Dave, you're toastering your dishwasher, their IoT edge devices probably in the next year if they're not already. So edge is a really big one. It consumes a lot of the data. Well, the buzzword du jour now is the metaverse. It's almost like the movie The Matrix is gonna come real-time. But the fact is it's all this data, a lot of video. Some of the ones that I would call out here, you mentioned facial recognition, real-time analytics. The edge is, a lot of the edge is gonna be real-time inferencing, applying AI.  When we first came out with our very first Gen3 product, our marketing team actually asked me, hey, how can we show users how they can consume this? So I actually set up a Hadoop environment. I decided I'm gonna learn how to do this. I set up this massive environment with Hadoop and at the time they called big data the three Vs. I don't know if you remember these big three Vs, the volume velocity and variety. Well, Dave, did you know there are now 10 Vs? So besides those three, we got velocity, we got value, we got variability, validity, vulnerability, volatility, visualization. So I'm thinking we need just to add another V to that. Yeah, well, and you know, that's interesting. You mentioned that and that sort of came out of the big data world, the Hadoop world, which was very centralized. You're seeing the cloud is expanding, the world's getting, you know, data is by its very nature decentralized. And so you've got to have the ability to do analysis in place. A lot of the edge of analytics are going to be done in real time. Yeah, sure. Some of it's going to go back in the cloud for detail modeling, but we are the next decade, Kim, ain't going to be like the last, I often say. I'll give you the last word. I mean, how do you see this sort of evolving? Who's going to be adopting this stuff? What's to give us a sort of a timeframe for this kind of rollout in your world? Oh, in terms of the timeframe, I mean, really nobody knows, but we've got Gen 5 that is, it's coming out next year. We, you know, it may not be a full rollout, but we're going to start seeing Gen 5 devices and Gen 5 infrastructures being built out over the next year. And then follow very, very, very quickly by Gen 6. And so what we're seeing though, is we're starting to see these graphics processors, these GPUs and coming out as well that are going to be connecting using PCIe interfaces as well. So being able to access lots and lots and lots of data locally, it's going to be a really, really big deal in order, because worldwide, all of our companies, they're using business analytics, data is money. And the person that actually can improve their operational efficiency, bolster those sales and increase your customer satisfaction, those are the companies that are going to go on to win. And those are the companies that are going to be able to effectively store, retrieve, and analyze all the data that they are collecting over the years. And that requires an abundance of data. Data is money. And again, it's interesting, it kind of all goes back to when Steve Jobs decided to put flash inside of an iPhone and the industry exploded, consumer economics kicked in, 5G now, Edge, AI, a lot of the things you talked about, GPUs, the neural processing unit, it's all going to be coming together in this decade, very exciting. Kim, thanks so much for sharing this data and your perspectives. I'd love to have you back when you got some, you know, new perspectives, new benchmark data. Let's do that, okay? I look forward to it, thanks so much. You're very welcome. And thank you for watching this CUBE Conversation. This is Dave Vellante and we'll see you next time.