for our panel to have a discussion and then also get you all involved in that discussion at the very end. So this is the second half of the imaging session. It will be a panel discussion with the four folks that I have up here. It's going to be structured with the first part being short presentations from those four panelists. There will then be a moderated discussion and we'll finish that up with questions from the audience to continue that discussion. So please think about some questions you have for our panelists and for the community to discuss imaging so that at the end we have kind of this full discussion for this. So last year we had an imaging session that felt pretty successful and full so it's really great to bring together some of these presentations. So we see imaging within the different specialty groups and I'm a little bit biased as an imaging specialist and not a conservator that I do want to pull these imaging sessions together so that I can see them. Unfortunately I've been sitting up here which is not the best seat in the house but it is really amazing to bring together some of these presenters. So the first half was three presentations, the second half is going to be a panel discussion which I think was missing from last year's imaging session. So I think there's a lot of advances in computing and digital imaging and those are continuing to introduce new techniques and technologies and increase the capabilities and applications of existing techniques. So it's important to continue to discuss the available techniques, applications and challenges. And as I was previously saying I think that the session last year was successful but I think the thing that was missing was a panel discussion. So I wanted to start out with introducing something that I've kind of identified with some of the research that I'm doing. I don't think it's anything new, I don't think it's necessarily changing what we're doing but it's looking at and identifying three categories of imaging within museum imaging. So those are collections, photography, conservation documentation, and scientific imaging. So I think these areas are defined by different techniques, workflows, and applications but they're interrelated and overlapped. And I think that this looks I'm jumping ahead of myself. So museum imaging incorporates interdisciplinary cultural heritage documentation and contributions from many fields for the continued development of imaging techniques and technologies. And so I don't think that these are always clearly defined independently and they may not exist in all institutions. So the organizational structure influences the dynamics and the connections of these categories. So part of categorizing the museum imaging is looking at techniques, applications, best practices, and standards for each to understand how these currently relate and overlap and how they can be developed and implemented in future applications and research. So another part of defining these categories is working to understand how imaging is served and accessed by departments and units of the museum, specifically conservation. So presenting the structure of the museum imaging acknowledges the contributions from those many fields and the continued development of the techniques and technologies. And it provides evidence of this multi and interdisciplinary nature of the cultural heritage documentation that we're using. So I think there's this interesting and challenging dynamic between some of the fields and how they come together for the heritage documentation. So the panel discussion is focusing on accessibility of imaging techniques for conservation documentation with panelists providing examples of institutional structure and the support of imaging within different institutions and organizations. It also look at case studies of accessible techniques of practice and a perspective of the assessment of available imaging tools and techniques to better understand possibilities limitations, especially related to these accessible techniques. So the panel is going to include short presentations from the four panelists followed by a moderated discussion and then questions from you and the audience. So we'll start out with a short presentation from JJ Chen who is at the State University of New York College at Buffalo. Can you hear me? Well first thank you for putting this panel together. It's an honor to be here to share my experience with you. And my goal today is to try to give you a glimpse of the conservation image training at my department within eight minutes. Before I introduce the current curriculum, I would like to recognize two pioneers who have shaped the current training. First, second, none, is Jordan Keck. Right at the front here of the Kupustan program in 1970, Jordan allocated laboratory space for the documentation and implemented technical examination and documentation as a standalone semester long course setting a path for a great tradition. The next important pioneer who needs no introduction is Professor Emeritus de Cresceau. Over his 34 years of teaching from 1978 to 2012 from Kupustan to Buffalo then has shaped technical examination and documentation into a comprehensive four semester curriculum which is unique among all conservation training programs. Technical examination documentation or conservation imaging that I call a noun is integrated into every project and research each student carried out. Then teaching and mentoring. Mentoring was always aimed to help students develop a high level of competency in technical and scientific photography to enable students to work independently to adapt easily to different photography environments and to continue to develop documentation skills, a philosophy that I carried to the state. The topics that I teach today is a direct transfer from dance curriculum with some updates. The techniques cover range from visible light to invisible wavelengths including UV, x-rays and infrared. The curriculum starts with students learning how to use a regular camera to document three artifacts, one from each of the three specialties, paper, paintings and objects. Then advanced to learning multi-modal imaging with a modified camera. The techniques with these two types of cameras are going to be the most affordable and I make sure that all students become very proficient in applying these techniques to as many projects as possible.  They may not use these techniques for every project. When I teach visible light photography with a regular DSLR camera, I use it to teach students how to use all the tools and equipment properly and efficiently. I emphasize differentiating different types of lights and how to shape and control them to bring out the characteristics of the materials or condition of the artifacts. From common lighting, techniques illustrate in this slide no more raking, axial and obliquely specular lighting or a special transmit lighting technique to bring out the compromised weave of basket, seen on the left, the irregular sheen of painting in the middle and the CRE service of a decorative mat moving to the second semester. I introduce techniques that can be done with the modified UV vis IR camera. These type of cameras can capture wavelengths from UVA visible to near infrared. Techniques can be used are illustrated here. I use the term multi-modal imaging instead of multi-spectra because these images are taken with different modes of photography such as the red mode in black later. It's hard to see from here. For instance, the luminance mode in blue letters and transmin mode in yellow letters. Examining and discussing the set of images taken with modified camera with my students is very gratifying. They see what they can, they were not able to record with a regular camera. For instance, the student took these images notice that the white coloring does not respond to different wavelengths consistently. The area that forces yellow-green like we painted with zinc white does not all absorb UVA and only particular white area emits IR when excite by vis light. She realized that there is more than one white column used. She combined these three images together to create a false color image and found that there are possible three different types of white and she has a color map now for the answers. I tell my students often that they are kings and queens when they are in the imaging studio doing photography. No one will follow them and they should spend the quality time with their artifacts but also believe that conservation imaging does not need to take a lot of time either. I create illustrations to help students setting up lights for different techniques consistently. These illustrations are also a reminder for them that they should create something like this in the future. I also summarize the imaging capture and passing steps in one sheet serving as a quick reference. After students learn the techniques through a detailed instructional manual, I found students generally like to refer to this one page reference instead of going through a multi-page document and I will do that too. The illustrations and the quick reference also help to streamline the process and to improve efficiency. Moving on to show IR photography. There are different show IR images available for conservators. In gas imagery is usually the most affordable. When Dan was researching which IR image to replace the old Vivikan, he decided to go for a more expensive in-speed IR imager because it's a wider range of biosensitivity. I'm glad to spend the extra money. This imager has a sensitivity range from 1,000 to 5,000 nanometer with a set of five filters here. I found that the filter that passed in 2050 to 2600 nanometers sometimes allowed the imager to capture the underpainting better than the other filters. The 2050 to 2600 nanometer is also the only filter that I know and I observe enables imager to distinguish silver inlay from the heavily corroded iron matrix. I cannot end the talk without talking about the department's radiography capacity then has strengthened our radiography capacity through the years, including getting a CR system in 2007 and help to upgrade it to the current version in 2014. With two different x-ray tubes and two carbon-14 beta plates, I can teach radiographic techniques using 5K to 300K and teaching better radiography, electron emission and electron transmission techniques. Just like our IR imager's wider capacity, the different radiographic techniques lets students to see different facets of artifacts. In short, learning different imaging techniques is like collecting different tools. Some tools are for daily use, easy to use and not expensive. Some tools are expensive but you do need them for special jobs. My job is research and test imaging techniques available and show the students what are possible and useful. Monsieur Sincere-Bretto to Dan for his mentoring and support and for going over with me the history and development of the curriculum on my program. I'm going for all four of my students who are so talented and eager to learn. They push me actually to be a better teacher. Thank you for listening. Betsy Han from Library of Congress. I'd like to thank Keats for inviting me on this panel today and my presentation is just going to be really about the setup that we have. So until 2002, the conservation division at the Library of Congress had a dedicated professional photographer who took treatment documentation, photographs for the conservators. After she retired, all conservation vision staff were required to take their own photographs. Previously, we had one photo studio with two distinct areas for photo documentation, one for three-dimensional objects like books and a copy stand for flat paper and photographic objects. Most of the photo documentation was captured using 35 millimeter color slide film but we also had the capability to capture images with four by five color and black and white film. After our photographer retired, the acquisition and assembly of equipment for photo documentation was haphazard at best. In 2008, senior photograph conservator Dana Hemingway asked the conservation division's administration permission to form a committee to address the lab's photo documentation needs. In turn, the administration requested that Dana transform the photo documentation setup from analog to digital. Our newly formed image documentation known as the IDOC committee additionally wanted to institute a more coordinated approach toward purchases of photographic equipment for the conservation division. Buy-in from the administration was not difficult, but buy-in from the Library of Congress IT department was. Dana, seen here in the center, worked closely with the IT specialists assigned to the conservation division to ensure this buy-in. It took several years for our photo documentation to go digital, in part because it took a long time for the IT pieces to come together. For instance, there is a linkly review at the Library of Congress for purchasing software because for security reasons they must test all new software for the entire library. After our software was tested by the IT department, Dana was then required to test it, so that process took about one year. Once the software testing was completed, the IDOC committee was formed. It consisted of approximately eight conservators, conservation technicians, and interns, and in short order, the committee started developing the workflow manual. In any given year, there are approximately 40 conservation division staff comprised of conservators, preservation specialists, conservation technicians, and interns that use image documentation for conservation treatment photos to capture condition of artifacts for various purposes like exhibitions and loans, and for good quality images of objects to affix to housing. The photographic and computer literacy capabilities of our staff varied widely. In addition, there was a lot of new information for the staff to learn the change to digital. Therefore, the manual that you can see here was geared toward those with the least experience to ensure overall success. To accomplish the task of devising a thorough and user-friendly manual, each IDOC member was assigned a section to write. The committee also addressed the different needs of the users, like those of a book conservator with 3D objects, as compared to a paper conservator with flat objects. And the manual was based on training that our committee members received in their graduate training programs, training provided to us by outside experts like JJ, and the AIC guide to digital photography and conservation documentation. After the manual was thoroughly tested and edited, the new digital photographic procedures were introduced to the staff. To provide an air of authority, these sessions were taught by an outside professional photographer, and these training sessions and subsequent bench work were required for all conservation division staff. This process was long and carefully orchestrated. This is how our photo studio looks now, with one area for image capture. After the digital image workflow was instituted, issues arose such as consistency of before and after treatment images, varying skill levels, and changes to the setup due to use by multiple staff. To address these concerns, the committee instituted rotating members known as eye doctors and specialists. The eye doctors addressed general issues, and the specialists addressed more specialized issues like multimodality imaging. When we first started using the digital workflow, we still had one area for books and three-dimensional objects, and a coffee stand for flat paper objects. But recently, these two areas were combined on the coffee stand using rolled paper attached at the bottom that can be pulled up to create a suite for 3D objects. And to maintain consistency, there is one camera dedicated for books and three-dimensional objects mounted on a tripod, and another camera for flat objects and page openings that's mounted to the coffee stand. After image capture is complete, image processing is done in a separate room that has two networks, computers with self-calibrating monitors. Our digital imaging workflow is also equipped with multi-modality capabilities. This painting is from the Weycote Cinco Codex, and it was made by Indigenous Mexican scribes in 1531 for the legal case brought by Conquistador Hernan Cortez against the High Court in Mexico. It is painted with Indigenous colorants on a substrate made from pounded agave fibers. I am currently conducting material research on this manuscript and have used these multi-modality images in conjunction with other analytical techniques to characterize the colorants and the substance. So before I conclude, I'd like to make a few comments about our particular setup. So the development of the IDOC Committee took a significant amount of conservation division staff time, and this meant that the conservators and conservation technicians took time away from their normal work duties of conservation treatment and housing of collections. Management and staff should consider the loss of productivity when implementing such a program. The manual needs constant updating when we get new equipment and software, and we're now on our third edition. And while we have this manual for the staff, I have to emphasize that it's actually up to the user to follow it. Since we can't enforce the use of the manual, we see a lot of variation. Image processing in particular can fall by the wayside. Some users failed to process their images, so they say it's proprietary files that are not in an archival format and are not universally accessible. We had outside training for digital photography, multi-modality imaging, and digital asset management. We also investigated Lightroom that determined that it would not work for our lab. Our workflow is project-based, and each user has permission to work only in the project folders they've been assigned. With Lightroom, every user would have access to everyone else's images in one catalog, and the risk of unintentional changes was too high. Currently, our documentation is not easily searchable. Our images are stored by project number and individual folders and are not easily searchable by keyword. A strong digital imaging program would incorporate the imaging component with a collections management database, and this requires administration buy-in and funding. In conclusion, we've shared copies of our workflow with other labs and conservators when asked, but I'm happy to announce that the latest edition of our in-house digital imaging workflow is now available on the Library of Congress's Preservation Directorate website. Thank you. It's going to be Dale Connright from the Georgia O'Keefe Museum of Research. So I'm going to be speaking sort of less about how we do things, but why we do things, and maybe you've heard me talk about our data-based conservation management program, data-driven management program, and so what we're trying to do there is to collect data on the rate of change in all of our objects. We have the two Adobe Homes. We have, of course, all of these artwork for personal effects or costumes and so on, and basically we're taking the stance that if the rate of change is slow, then the object is able to withstand the setting it's in, but if the rate of change starts to change, then the object is no longer able to put up the conditions that it's in, and we have to make a change. So we're using multi-mobile imaging. We're using RTI. In this case, we're using transmitted IR to track the presence and growth of cracks in paintings. We're using photometric stereos. We're using a bunch of techniques, but the reason why I'm doing that is to try and create a series of standard protocols, standard imaging capture protocols, and standard processing protocols, so that regardless of sort of camera used and the resolution that we're taking, there will always be a standard in the calibration that we can compare later on to try and establish rate of change, whether it's chemical, physical, and mechanical. So for us, the heritage conservation and digital imaging paradigm is changing a bit, and originally, of course, we waited until we saw visible damage, and then the conservation process began. Now we have the capacity using the microprocessor and the photo sensor to begin to see changes that are not visible with the naked eye. So the impact of this is that we're actually able to establish rate of change, thereby really measuring quantitatively whether our conservation interventions, our treatments, and our preventive methods are actually slowing the rate of deterioration. Up to now, we hope they have. We're using conservation documentation to evaluate that, but I think with the advent of multi-mobile imaging, multi-spectral imaging, we can actually begin to at least quantify that information in a way that's meaningful to rate of change. So the things that we're using include reflective and transmitted infrared digital photography, obviously UV-induced visible luminescence, narrow band past filtered visible and UV-induced visible luminescence, looking at very small band passes through both types of luminescence to try and detect changes in chemistry of the surface of the object. Obviously, photometric stereo and RTI to create 3D normal surface maps, photogrammetry for the capture of the contours of our historic homes and studios, both at Abacue and the Ghost Rancher, and most recently, laser Doppler Vibrametry to begin to understand the resonant frequencies that objects vibrate at and where their stress and strain points are. So just to go through some of these, this is RTI and photostereo. You recognize the color channel and the creation of a normal vector map. This is in the evaluation of carboxylate soaps that are emerging from the surface. In this case, these are lead carboxylate soaps. You'll see the false color RGB normal surface vector map. And what those colors represent is real data. And the real data is the normal vector map you're seeing here on three actual micro led micro patricians on that surface. So we can come back, take another series of photostereo images, create another normal vector map, register those photographs, and then check the rate of growth of those soaps, whether they're more of them, whether they've gotten bigger, if they've stayed the same. Photogrammetry, many of you are familiar with. This is how we capture our buildings. We create a point cloud that moves into a 3D model. And just to give you an idea of what we can do with that, this is a sparse point cloud video that we've taken of the Attacue house and studio, starting with captures from a drone, getting the upper area, looking at the outside of the house. This is a hand built Adobe house. So it's not made with industrial materials. The surfaces are hand modeled, if you will. There are curves and undulations that we would want to document and preserve in the case of deterioration. Here we're going into O'Keeffe's studio. You can see that we've captured the roof figures and their dimensionality, their hand card. Some of the built-in features are going to O'Keeffe's bedroom. Again, the biggest in the ceiling are visible. The textures of the mud plastered OV walls going on the outside. And looking at those plaster walls, we're going to be going back into the driveway area. You can see that we actually get soil contours using this method so that we can keep track of erosion around the buildings as well as soil buildup. Going in the central courtyard, then we'll be moving into O'Keeffe's living room. So there are a lot of built-in furnishing features in O'Keeffe's living room, and so we have complete modeling of that. So this is a three-dimensional way of recording condition, recording present state. And again, it allows us to isolate any of these areas and check them against dimensional changes that might be occurring. And it's kind of fun to get the sparse point of view and fly through it, if you will.  This is multi-point laser biometrics. It's about extending the life of my friend, Vikram, who's been talking about this video. We're taking a series of graded what the reference would do for me to create, and each laser projector also has a collection of things to search between these two. It measures the frequency of the laser coming back from the surface. So as the surface vibrates, it has a movement wave, and the wave length is constant, and as the particle turns, it measures that more than the surface vibrates towards the vibration of the wave length increases. It gets shorter. So around the first hole, we're able to measure the vibration of paintings in both. Now paintings are handled by the picture in a trolley or a name frame, and then we put paintings inside crates, cut observations windows, create a grid, and we're able to measure vibrations during transportation. That's a technique that's essentially a camera. But we're measuring changes in the wave length, and we're able to check out such things like, so this is actually data that is visualized. This is the one one drum mode or a single drum mode where the middle painting is vibrating. This is from a very small vibration impact. The movement is exaggerated for the sake of the video, but we can actually measure acceleration displacement and acceleration displacement and velocity of each point in that grid. Now these are two vibrometry readings. Are they moving? Oh, it's starting. It's trying. So in a crate, essentially, and what you're seeing on the top is the double drum mode. So two side by side motions of an actual low-key painting as it's moving. That's the vibration that the painting undergoes at 23 hertz. The one below it is about 45 hertz, and that's a triple drum mode. So the campuses are moving, and we're able to visualize that and load that data. The impact of that is that if a painting becomes additionally cracked, the crack becomes open, then the vibration profile of that painting in that area changes, and we will be able to see if that crack is active or if it's stabilized and if a change occurs over time. Those sort of the latest things we're doing to try and record a grid change. Thank you. Thank you, Keats. Thank you everyone. I'm going to try and go very quickly through a very dense pack of slides from that imaging department, and I run the advanced imaging team. It's a big operation, and we're a small group within a big operation. Our photo studio, our imaging department, satisfies the traditional needs of the museum. That's our primary work. We also extend technical support in my team to many different departments that are doing their own collection photography, and we also support our conservation departments. They have their own imaging, and we also sometimes do imaging for them. A couple years ago, we started an advanced imaging initiative, and we are going into really developing best practice around the emerging technologies. Here's a quick sample of something we worked on last year and this does a test. We were looking to do a full-painting RTI type capture, but really doing the full piece using 3D scanning and photogrammetry. So we scanned the painting. Actually, these were the photogrammetry sessions, and then we laser scanned. We brought those two data sets together, mainly because the laser scan has more precision than the photogrammetry. And working with the photographers, our Imaging Production Manager, Wilson Santiago and Juan Juillo are looking at the relighting. That's in a software called Keyshop, and you'll see you can relight and bring up the texture of that's just the mesh. This is the addition of the high-quality texture, and then you can relight it. This is, again, something we haven't formally pursued, but it definitely was a repeatable technique, and we'll see another example of this. Most of our projects are real projects or work conservation departments, but the reason I'm here today to have me to be on this panel is look at all the stuff we have to deal with from a technical perspective. All of the tools you use, all of the tools we use, have to work together, and this is a full-time job. That's why we rely on international standards, so our museum best practices have to elevate further if they'll be of help to everyone. And one of the panels I'm on is ISO Jokework 326, and you were responsible for merging the U.S. and European standards for 2D artwork reproduction. Real quick summary, issue to charge. You have a camera's manufacturer profile and usually looks something like a fail. After calibrating, it looks something like a pass. I'm just speeding it up. That's all for a whole workshop. Here's something to give you a real world example in a large museum where this is helpful. We have our paintings conservation with the geospiny at that time in Tungsten, and in our photo studio, we have passive-light cameras with strobes. They're both ISO validated. There's slight differences between them, but they both pass. And then if you take a special measure to solve the painting service, you'll see just visually, you can measure the dealt keys, but you'll see those color patches just disappear. So we have two departments speaking the same language, especially helpful for before and after comparisons. Here we have a project we did a little while ago. We had some enormous pieces, which are fantastic for people into color. Here we're measuring the originals, and then we calibrated the camera, and then we shot the three pieces. The reason we did this is upon output the original characters were doing strange things. We wanted to see what the ground was, but on this projector in the middle slide you see are on the corners, the left corner will be reloaded on possibly. Those are the spectral measurements compared to the actual captures. And they actually do slightly show up, but it actually ends up just being a pinch of exposure, and all those colors are operated. That's attributable glare. This is the most interesting set of slides, though. This is if you do not follow ISO capture practices, how wildly different your images will be. And I think the password is not enough for this level of precision, but here you'll see the net color differences. And I can give you a Delta E report, but the visual assessment is really comforting people that aren't terrible. Here's another one that hits everyone, and some people have tried to grapple with this, and that's microscope calibration. This was a quick test for photo conservation or a quick repair job. This was just a piece of paper on the desk. Here's we photographed the chart, made a profile, and you'll see the best difference. The one on the right is actually the color of that object. Well, it really flew through, but that's okay. Here's the bottom line is advanced imaging is based on traditional imaging. Traditional imaging is not going away. 100 megapixel camera is a much more efficient tool than the technique I showed you of the laser scanning painting, which takes a long time. So until the point where it's superseded, we have to really look at our practice for still imaging, and that includes the multimodal multispectral imaging, which is essentially a series of pictures. So what's missing are targets and definitions of aims and tolerances. And I wanted to show you how far we've come with 2D, because everything's going to build on that, and that's what we're working on. And I saw right now a gathering of information about best practice in spectral imaging so we can get some standards wrapped around it. That's it. Trying to take notes as fast as possible, because I'm so interested in the work that these panelists are doing, and I was really excited to bring them together. I've seen some of their work in their studios. I've talked to them at different conferences, and I think that they bring really good examples of either the priorities that we need to be looking at with some of the imaging, like looking at the training that JJ is providing within the conservation programs, but also some of the institutional structures that we're seeing in some of these places, and the standards that we're trying to work towards. So it is really exciting to bring these together to try to start to have this conversation, not even start to have this conversation. It's a conversation that we've been having, but to continue it in a meaningful way. So I'm going to try to do tech and pull together some questions to continue this. So give me one second. That's cool. You totally got it, my surprise. I'm sorry, I couldn't. You could have kept going. So I do want to remind you, I'm going to ask a few questions, but please, if you have some questions come up, write them down, have them in mind, and then we'll invite some audience questions at the end of the session. So we're going to start out with a question that's kind of a pretty broad question for each of the panelists to think about. So each of these panelists are coming to this discussion from different institutions with different roles and priorities. So there are universal essential elements for good documentation and also the interpretation of this through the individual institutions. Can each of you briefly speak to the essential components of good documentation given your individual institutional priorities? And for this question, I think we'll start with JJ and we can move down and then we can switch up the order. Do you want your slides? Yep. You said that very comfortably. For, I've been coming from the Hawaii Valley was students image work. And I have different categories that I look into when I check their images. And the images really not for TAFI, it's not for its actual document. And so for me, it's very important just from looking at the image, I know what the image is about. It's how is it lighted so that the light indicator can tell me this is like a normal image or written by image. And also the color reference there can tell me how the color is render or exposure is correct or not. Let's go to the detail that I usually check with 100 percent verification to make sure to the focus is right. Exposure is according to the standard that I see and how the color the color temperature and team is rendering properly or all that. So it's a document and need to have essential information within the image without me going to the metadata. And the consistency also is important if it's for before and after treatment, that I exist in consistency. For me, I emphasize a more consistency than a perfect color render image because I can compare from apple to apple is an apple orange. And so the consistency is really the key and that they need to send a workflow as soon as it can be able to produce consistent. I think at the library in Congress, it's probably similar to what JJ was talking about except that we don't have somebody on staff who checks everybody's images. I think that would be more than a full time job. So for us to have I think the best quality image, it really stems from the work that the committee did developing that manual. Again, as I said, not everybody follows it like they're supposed to, but the majority of people do. So if they follow the manual, both for image capture and processing, we should have really good quality images for documentation. I'll jump in. So when I was first asked this question and told the question was going to be coming, I was thinking, okay, so we we try and follow both charisma and fancy workloads, work processes, workflows. We try to include a 99% spec spec of on standard along with the X bright color checker. We're also adding cultural heritage images, digital recognizable calibration distance calibration standards and those shots. Got that when the capability comes along. And then we try to make full use of metadata. So we've been working on a XMP metadata template that includes everything we want, along with keywords within the metadata for everything we want. So we're trying to keep track in the metadata of the illumination source, the color temperature, the brand. We don't keep track of angle. We don't keep track of the brightness because we think the calibration is going to take care of that. Scott may tell me that I am sorely misled, but the camera modifications, the filters that are being used. And then I went back and I sort of looked, right, how many photographs have all that. And it's really less than half. And so what's clear is that there are within the collection, there are works that travel a lot that we consider to be high risk because of the energy inputs they're getting from vibration and light handling and so on, that we really want true state of condition, true state rate of deterioration, and that we're going to track that carefully over time. And then there's condition documentation where we need to quickly somehow graphically communicate what this thing looks like. And so whatever metadata is automatically captured by the camera because we shoot tethered goes into the metadata. So I have to say that sort of internal consistency and sort of having time, even though there's only two of us taking photographs, is something that even we can't do all the time. And we understand we're a special case, right? We have one artist. She is 99.5% of our entire collection. So our attention is all that. And the future of the museum depends entirely on moving that collection into the future. Because if we lose some percentage of the sort of authentic appearance and scholarly quality of accused paintings, nobody's going to come to our museum. There's not anything else. So we understand that the risk of deterioration in our collection is very high and we want to keep as careful track of change as we possibly can. So our desire is very high. Given that though, really just less than 50% of the photographs have all metadata. So maybe I'm best case, I don't know. But that's the reality of what we do. That makes sense, actually. It's a good thing. Each person is coming at this from a different angle. And I think it's a good panel because there are different scales involved. At the MET, as a large scale operation, we're working in groups of people that are in conservation that are interested in multispectral. As an example, we're looking at there's different vintages of cameras, different lenses, different filters, different light sources. So we've looked at it from ironing out those differences in equipment as a starting point and using the same tools to process, aiming at standards if they exist. And we've done this with a sort of very low budget footprint, not buying new gear, but just corralling the gear we have. Also working with our ICT departments as allies instead of enemies, because there are issues with access and security that we have to deal with, like the lightroom discussion. The standards that we speak of are really open to any tools. And I guess our biggest effort and why I think I wanted to be here was to say that we can push harder on the manufacturers to incorporate this checking for standards and the features we need, because if you look at all of our struggles to educate on this topic, is that we're fighting against happier courses on how to unravel lightroom and how to reverse engineer all the software you use. So if the camera had a scene referred ISO mode, then we can train at the student level what are the best practices of capture. The work we do is just unraveling system and software trouble. So I'd say that's our, as a larger institution, why we're leaning towards ISO standards and not met guidelines. I think it needs to be larger than that so we can all funnel it to the manufacturers. So that's our mission, I guess. We'll tie into that. And someone else started to answer this, but within the institutions, what are the barriers of achieving these essential components of good documentation? You can fight with the mic. Well, you know, I mean, since any problems I have really are my fault, right? There's only two of this. And so part of it is workload and time. I think a big part of it is space. So I mean, I'm so jealous of Library of Congress and space because, you know, we're essentially shutting down studio space to do photography. And there's bound to be straight light, which is something I would love to get rid of, particularly for some of the multispectral imaging that we're doing. So, you know, sort of all the usual things that we're all trying to overcome all the time, space, time, exhibition deadlines, and help. Yeah. So, but I agree that with Scott, that I think our efforts now need to be communal and that we have to work internationally and we have to begin creating scientific images that will be meaningful regardless of capture and capture conditions. That there is enough information in that capture and its internal metadata that anybody could reproduce the same setup and have comparable results. That's what we need to get to. I think we're lucky because it's an educational department. So the scope of work is more limited and usually objects smaller. We have a good studio, so students usually have good success in terms of achieving consistency that's usually I try to emphasize that before doing after treatment is actually consistent. One thing that I struggle is actually it probably the software issues that just mentioned that I sometimes has changed my work, the handout one semester to another semester because maybe the OS changed and maybe the app updated. So I need to revise the workflow and then sometimes the just a came one version, the class version can change and then the rendering color may be different, dynamic range different. That's one of the problems that I struggle with. How can I keep consistent in the software or the applications updating them? You know I would say the same thing because every time we get sorry every time we get a new camera or any type of new software it's not just that we get that but then the committee has to regroup again rewrite and I shouldn't say everything but a lot of it has to be rewritten and then we take photographs of the new camera everything along the way and it is very time consuming so yeah I think JJ's right new software just creates issues. I think we this is a big organization if you look at the still imagers we're more fractured I think because of your scientific papers you know how many people are here 1500 or something like that you know almost every one of you uses a camera not just people are in this session. I think if we can get the organization behind what your requirements are for systems and that's starting to flesh out I think we can couple that with other facets of museum professionals and go to the manufacturers with leverage because it's all driven by marketing you know the company can feel they're squeezing into our market once you get one company to add a feature that we need and we've done it but we need some force multiplying because this like I said earlier all this is building on still imaging a lot of the techniques that you're using the photogrammetry is a good example you're talking hundreds of cameras hundreds of lenses hundreds of exposure and it's all on our time so you know everyone wants to sell that camera to you but we need to sort of say we need this sport for XYZ on our PO's I think that's the only way to streamline the software hardware problems. I think with that we're hearing the challenges of time space deadlines software issues that then tie into kind of time issues one of the things that hasn't directly come up but it is a big issue is budget Scott was starting to address some of kind of what the solutions are in terms of approaching the manufacturer that would tie into some of the work with the standards but what are some other solutions or resources that we should be looking into or what are some of the most important threads to be following to be supporting this community? I can say briefly that you know we've had had to go out and always sort of try and find this enthusiastic philanthropist who's going to back acquisition of equipment materials filters and so on and I found it to be surprisingly easy if you can make the case this is incredibly relevant on a on an international scale if we are going to be providing scientific imaging that's going to be shared searchable findable and and meaningful to all the museums that have artwork by George O'Keefe that they're going to be able to understand their work better and track the condition better that's the mission of the organization and my board and other philanthropists get really excited if they can have a major impact on the preservation of of this material long term so the finding finding international relevance sharing essentially searchability and sharing so that other people can take similar images compare the two and learn something I think is a real lever when it comes to trying to raise money again I have to say I'm lucky I got the good support from the department it's got the good support from the college to supply some of the basic equipments and like filters and that usually have no problem to purchase them and so that's why I say the regular camera or the model like camera is the most affordable one and that's the challenge is updating cannot buy a thermal imager cannot buy a hyperspectral in imagery that the kind of challenge um but also because all students going to go out to the field and work in different institutions maybe even in private practice I cannot require I cannot anticipate them to have the same type of image image capacity can have a museum so I try to um just give them um like the concept that you can still use low budget you can consumerists are created um to use low budget to achieve as high as stand price standards possible um may not be the highest quality but at least can um kind of problem solving and that's one of the challenges I gave to students is called follow challenge they have $100 to to be spent and what they can do to improve what is the fundamental need instead what is what they need now for the want so think through the problem but again budget is always a issue and particularly would have a special imaging department I've tried to kind of um increase to expand the current in this aspect but the technology moves so fast by the time I purchased a hundred thousand dollars in three years maybe there is a better one and so that's usually the challenge so sharing the resources I think it may be the way to go for the field for this kind of more expensive equipment I'll just fill in a couple thoughts there the one thing is actually it did at the Rijksmuseum 2 and 3d conference last week someone from the UK had done a beautiful presentation on standards and he took a 15 year old minolta digital camera and walked through the whole workflow of making it work the same thing we do um and uh yeah you could you could make any camera pass in terms of color and tone uh and even resolution it's pretty amazing people have done it on iPhones uh so the it's interesting that the the goal of reaching it is there uh it's if you've done AIC guidelines um it's really the same step it's just a little more um checking it's just checking your work basically so from a standards perspective it actually becomes a little easier than chasing the in-house tolerances but I wish we could if there was a one thing we could do it would be great if there was an app or an application that we can use to do our senior referred standard capture that eliminated the need for these consumer tools that were battling um if someone wanted to write a check that would be a a tool that we could all share that type of thing um you know and you can use open source to do this so it's not really money driven it's interest driven well I think there's a I'll let Betsy jump in just second but there's also an accessibility of some of the standards and so with Fadji which is the federal agency digitization guidelines initiative which is used by collections photographers and not as much I don't think in conservation documentation it's not the most approachable document so it's it's figuring out how resources can become available so that these are more approachable documents in terms of the ISO standard um and then also kind of Fadji and then I'm worth this would it be helpful to have a workshop at the next day I see on how to do this yes okay so that's we can start there it's almost it that the Fadji or mental models is a beautiful flat object right so not necessarily it's they came out of library space for sure um and mass digitization but it happens to be the well characterized camera uh we do all of our 3D work at the Met with the same color calibrations um it's um it really is a way of qualifying your hardware so if that if that color is accurate you're just changing the shape of your lighting and especially for photogrammetry it's a 3D software is not color managed so you have to feed it good color or else your let's look at it this way as these technologies come together we want our still images that were known for we want all of those new types of images to exactly match or else it's a sort of avail if I happen to keep painting that's rendered in 3D and it's a different color we won't be able to put it out there so it's it needs to be compatible um so did I get off track sorry no no no no no and I want to be not also um the conservation imaging is not just color reproduction and is also looking at the texture machine looking at the response in IR UV and voices and so there's bigger bigger problem than not just the color management and um I sometimes I feel that the images with raking specular actually more informative than just a normal like image but should be just as procedural I think if you're comparing over time to get back to that same raking light that's still you know all these techniques can be spread across more evenly across the world I think if someone does raking light that they follow a certain procedure so all those things we should look at and the spectral especially that I guess I didn't mean to say color management as the only thing when we're talking about this we're talking about defining a UV target that we all agree on and that is scientifically valid uh IR targets paint mixes all these things that we want to investigate I think we we all are sharing the same collections and investigating together so I think for imaging it we should image it in similar ways so I'm going to open up the floor to the audience if you have questions so please come to the mics if you don't I think we can also continue to have a discussion with questions from each other and from ourselves but there's a hurry of people while Ariel goes to the microphone how many of you were at the earlier session here so is JP here so JP Brown dropped an incredible mind-growing bomb when he suggested that some of the critical metadata that's particular to a multispectral or a multispectral subtraction image can be included in a QR code and the QR code can be put in the image and and you will never lose some metadata because it's literally in the image that's a brilliant idea I want to investigate that thanks Dale I'm Ariel O'Connor I'm an objects conservator at the Smithsonian American Art Museum and I'm a Buffalo graduate from 2009 so Dan was my professor and Dale as well so many fond memories of hundreds of hours in the photo studio trying to achieve that perfect image and so my question is the opposite of that idea right now at our museum we have artwork in four separate locations quite often we're responding last minute to gallery interactions and I find myself with an embarrassing amount of the percentage of the photography I do with this phone right here and I would like to know how to optimize that reality because I don't think that will change and what suggestions do you have for tools and things that we can use that we can pull in from the from this perfect ideal world that we all hope to achieve all the time wouldn't have to photograph with this item I could help you with that um there's uh there's free and paid raw apps there's also commercial like light room etc on the phone I think if you follow your regular AIC workflow you know in terms of the even just the color checker passport it in the field hmm well let's just say you can take the files when you get home if you're collecting in the field and you should you should be able to do very well but you probably don't want to use the built-in camera app but use something that has a little more control and shoots dng and then you can bring it into your whatever your raw workflow is at home and you should be able to improve it and take it as far as I have tried you can email me we could find something I actually purchased the iPhone just for the purpose that can take a while and have done some of the um app because the using the third party third party and I try um in Vietnam trying hard not the dng file that I captured even after adjustment it's not as good as the the um in can um somehow just doesn't and maybe I haven't again I haven't tried but if the phone it's the only thing you have yeah that is good um and they cannot I can say to myself I cannot stop them using the phone to do action jobs to do documentation if that's the only tool they have but I teach them the difference between camera and a snapshot so they understand what they're missing but if you can remember to not only grab your phone but grab grab a little x-ray um color checker then it doesn't happen necessarily be in the shot that you're taking but but but the color checker needs to be photographed under the same light right so if you can just get a shot of the color checker under the same light that the object is being exhibited in then that will allow you to go back and calibrate that that photo one app that you can look at is called flannel f la n l l f la n n l yeah flannel uh and that worked pretty well I think focus and exposure you can override and shoot your photo like he said so I think this is where I think as a group like we can all help each other try test this because I think really need to improve the capacity of using the smartphone to do photography you can get a little better then and so mainly working together to test few apps and to see what will work best I guess a couple of questions one is how someone sort of mid-career or late-career can get better knowledge about how to do some of these setups and also convince their workplace to invest in doing it and it's a little bit like I don't want to say the Library of Congress but there's a you know it's a large lab and we have our protocols and they're good ones but they need to be expanded and so it takes it it takes someone having confidence in being able to do it and convince other people to do it so I like not a one day it works off but like many day it works off Scott thinking that it would require something more like for someone say who would it can do good normal good regular photography but needs much more knowledge to really bring it back home and do it so that's so I'd be interested in something like that and also we're so I work at Harvard University and they have a great digital repository so I don't have to worry about our all-artificial images are uploaded and maintained by an engineer so I'm very happy about that and I'm trying to increase the the technical image upload technical images which is not part or part yet of the repertoire that they broadcast so I'm kind of wondering in the panel how in your institutions the accessibility of not just the employees but the web you know web based your technical images and how far they reach the public say how you do that and how the metadata is shared that way we don't share our conservation treatment photographs with the public we will share them with people when they ask but it's not something we would in general just put up on the web so these aren't necessarily I mean these are so known to the conservation images unless asked and the individual repository approves or allows it but I'm not but technical images are something different that's true and so in a way I'm so I'm asking it's more of a question and how how private how special how scholarly like who who had who has access to those and so we for a long time we had a website dedicated to our RTI files so that anybody could go and grab any of our RTI files right and and get the culture heritage imaging viewer uploaded and look at the RTI files we were really interested because everybody remembers okay from her posters basically and everybody thinks the surfaces are flat but of course there's a lot of texture that she intentionally put there and we really wanted to give that information out since changing websites we haven't we have brought that back live but that's that's the kind of technical imaging that we're perfectly willing to share along with our calibrated UVs our irs I'm I'm I'm thinking also that our transmitted irs because our transmitted irs show her canvas type and canvas wave and canvas density so well that that's really going to become a useful tool that I think we'll be happy to put up yeah treat treatment photos I'm not sure that the curators will be comfortable with that but certainly the technical imaging we fully intend for them to live to be accessible via metadata on our dams and so they should be easy to then move right right on the web to answer your first question just hire one of our graduates but also I think this is something the AIC may be doing more workshop on base like what Scott just mentioned to offer more in terms of documentation particularly digital documentation aspect second in terms of the record we don't want to share our records either it's only in house but I do feel there's a will of information from the project has been done by the students through the years the Meta Foundation funded a conservation space project the goal I remember was actually be able to have different levels sharing the image but I don't know where the project is going and it would be great to actually be able to share the images through institutions how to take the images and be able to mine the data for to collaboration as a as a profession I just don't know what that is now one number two it's more of a policy thing and our work does flow out to the public usually related to an exhibition or a special I know of a few where the conservation images and work played a big role to the public but not on a website sort of access as I see but the education question is interesting I think I'm hoping that our institution supports our advanced imaging effort of education again could be reaching out through AIC or something like that or something at the museum but we just did a workshop on all of our 3d work for the first time in holland and it was 90 people came and really seemed to enjoy it but it was just such an overview it was just an introduction what you're looking for it's interesting because I think that should be a role of after all this research and work on standards maybe we have to help you know spread the word I just want to add but I think it's really important that we start within within our own domain and that is that we find ways of sharing our images and the capture and processing workflow with each other with our colleagues make it accessible to other people who want to try and take the same kind of image and compare the results we need to find ways to do that cross institutionally so that we if we can start there then I think it really builds relevance builds the case helps us get funding helps us get space everything that we're talking about we need hi everybody I'm Emily Kaplan National Museum of the American Indian and I wanted to thank you all for fantastic panel and fantastic talks earlier today and just thank you all for helping us not just you Keats but all of you for we have so many interns and fellows coming through our lab all of the time that it really helps to build on the work that's gone before and especially when we attend new new new formats and new new techniques so part of my question was about RTI files I think across Smithsonian we're still all right I'm flummoxed still about what to do what where where to put where to store how to store all of the the processing files as well say the really the really large ptms that's something that we haven't solved yet and I love I think I agree overall absolutely with if we if we all share our processes I'm also really happy to hear about this new app for the iPhone and I'm glad that Ariel brought that up because I was afraid to but it's true it's true we do do that um and another session would be great and if there's the possibility of you know when the first of the the AIC guidelines came out that was enormously helpful um if there could y'all can do like another edition it would be really helpful too um but I'm just really grateful for for all of your work we couldn't we couldn't do what we do without you so thank you topics to discuss all questions to um to answer we also um talk about the frustration that it has for years in terms of software update and it it may be great to have a supportive I think have a supporting group that people actually constantly do with work working on upgrade the software or constantly go through a problem to share the solutions I think that will be great and so there are many a working group for the AIC we the AIC to support that constantly working with the computer and we imaging to support our colleagues that when they have questions um about which update which which version you should use or what update to serve version what kind of problem you're going to encounter what are solutions I think um the other thing we have to think about as as a domain and as a profession is that um you know the processes are going to continue to change um the Brooklyn Museum just gave a demonstration earlier talk earlier on their um multi-specral subtraction um um system which in we helped really identify and mixes the paints locations of of um indigo blue prussian blue it's fantastic that kind of development's going to continue to happen we're all going to be doing that it's really fun and when we think about building standards and building metadata in particular I think or or even writing another version of the AIC guide to digital documentation I think it needs to be online it has to be live it has to be easily updatable um so that we can continue to add um here's a workflow for adding iPhone mobile phone applications and and somehow standardize and make it information rather than just make it entertainment right I think that's what we need to do but we need to we have to build in the fact that there will be no set group of standards the standards will be dynamic and we have to adopt that and we have to find a way to get those standards um broadly dispersed I agree and comment not a not a question I'm Lisa Barry I work in photographic conservation at the Met and I just wanted to mention that um the material that goes online varies depending on the conservation departments I don't know if there's anybody from paintings conservation here but they actually uh paintings conservation at the Met they actually there's a technical notes section on the met museum dot org and they've actually put a lot of information online I made a comment about a month ago oh you know I wish this information was shared and someone said this is online inside so it's the main it's the object pages and technical notes there's a lot of like infrared x-ray and then other other multispectral imaging we're all working sort of individually trying to get conservation information in that technical notes section but I would say paintings has done they have a lot of material on there Chris um objects conservator about to start at AM and H I just wanted to sort of continue this discussion a bit um that JJ touched on and also in relation to what you just mentioned about the Met sharing their technical um imaging info you know as I presented on earlier this afternoon at the Brooklyn Museum we participated in the appear project and a big part of that project just ongoing is that you know there are dozens of institutions participating and they're sharing their images on this online database that everyone who's participating in the project is able to feel and that information was so informative and helpful for us in terms of determining what we were interested in looking at and then sort of reaching out to institutions to see you know what they had found and how they were you know compiling these results but even looking at their false color infrared images to try to see if they identified indigo or if you know um and again it was a whole multidisciplinary thing so they also had their scientific results up in terms of you know cross-comparing all these different examples but I think you know it's maybe much too ambitious to envision sharing all these things sort of globally but I do love this idea of being able to um share with one another our results these different um techniques and certain sort of specific applications I think it really can go such long way into further understanding of particular materials and then even you know very specific sort of um objects and their kind of history and techniques in this particular instance so anyway I I just love the idea of really trying to expand our wealth of shared information and having a sort of updateable um set of protocols is like really great stuff in that direction and I think just really trying to standardize things as much as we can and discuss ways that are going to be accessible for everyone I think that's um definitely one of the challenges you know that Photoshop is so accessible but it's also so opaque in a lot of ways and so when you have the software updates you're sort of scrambling to figure out what has changed and you know where do I need to go in and and sort of what can I do to address that but I think that communication and having this open line of you know being able to discuss this amongst one another is so essential so anyway thank you all I'm very excited that this discussion is taking place and I look forward to seeing how it progresses. I have something that I've been thinking about as you've been speaking because I knew nothing about your project but I encountered it through our conservators that were working with you and actually that was one of those types of projects that energizes people around like it's so much to take on but working on a specific project draws people in but it also allowed you to collaborate with I don't know how many but quite a few each site and you're almost qualifying the process because you're hitting different cameras and all that so actually that's another avenue that I hope there's more of those projects that cut across museums based on a type of art because you know that if you asked them and wrote an online thing and said do it it doesn't always work you know but you're actually working on it together it's a whole different scenario um so I just wanted to state that's another thing that I found to work really well uh with technology because it provides a little focus exactly because it's so much absolutely we are fast approaching the end of our time so what I would like to ask is each of y'all to take a minute or two no more to just if you have some final thoughts final comments on this discussion and then we'll wrap it up and hopefully you see how the discussion continues within our community um and further and just you know fight for the mic I think my closing thoughts are um force multiplying power in numbers um a good example of practical example is if you ask everyone in this room what filters they use for their multimodal imaging you'll probably have 20 vendor names and then when you go to buy them you'll find it's not in your size where they discontinued it or it's back ordered for nine months how about if we scientifically vet through practical testing and experience the filters and cutoffs that we actually need go to one or two manufacturers within AIC spec a spec forbid and say to the manufacturer just wants a big order the med can't order them you can't order them but if we put in a block of orders for someone to cut some filters we could have a little wooden box with a multimodal imaging series of filters that fits every camera but that's the way it has to happen if you want to see it happen in your lifetime otherwise we're going to be scraping away for no matter what we say we want to do but but it's power numbers it's all that is and efficiency so uh you know I think we can walk those down that's great mind blowing again I would only sort of building on what Don was saying I think that one of the ways that we can do what JJ was talking about and get to shared resources is the sort of not only collaborative works cross institutionally but complementary so that not all of us has to have every single tool every single capacity but we can do deep research deep dives in a particular type of work each of us doing what we do best and and then you know getting a lot of work done in a collaborative way that's another way of generating resources and creating great information so just remember we don't all have to have the same thing um we just need to be able to share it come see what we've done at the library um and also please look at what we have online with our manual and um Keith and I talked about this I think there should be a working group or a committee within AIC like they've done with other like sustainability just for this because I think imaging is so fundamental to what we do now as conservators that I think it needs to be more formalized yeah I second as I mentioned before the working group um the ICOMCC has a working group documentation um but AIC doesn't have and may not be a specialty group but a supporting group in a way um to share information share our challenges um and then they need someone have a solution right away instead of try just try to solve it solve so a lot of common themes have come up it's not just the folks that are up here on the panel um we're running into the same challenges we're working towards the same kind of direction the common themes of standardizing practice working towards accurate repeatable comparable results and going against these challenges of time budget space deadlines and then we kept on coming back to sharing and collaboration so I think this was a really great discussion um thank you so much to the panelists who are here and then also Anna Serata was consulting on this entire thing because I am again not a conservator I'm a digital imaging specialist and so I wanted to make sure that we're having that perspective here too that it's not just someone else coming in to tell you what you need to be doing which I'm not doing um but that it's a full discussion that we're representing everyone here so thank you to those folks have additional facts questions feedback um my email is up here um we do hope to make this available it was filmed um I don't know how quickly that will be or what kind of challenges we might have with that but um it is I think an important discussion for the community so we did make sure that it was recorded so that we can potentially get it out to a wider audience and we have the sign-up sheet for the working group right here so come on thank you