All right, thank you everyone for joining us today both in the room and also somewhere in the ceiling. We're really excited to host this conversation launching Data Sovereignty from the Digital Silk Road to the Return of the State, which is a new open-access volume by Anna Palmchander and Hao Chensun who were excited to have joining us today. We also have copies up front if people are hoping to flip through after the event. And to briefly introduce the authors, Anna Palm is the Scott K. Ginsberg Professor of Law and Technology at Georgetown University, the author of the Electronic Silk Road, and most importantly, a visiting scholar at the Institute for Rebuilding Social Media this year. And Hao Chen is Professor of Law at the University of Hong Kong Faculty of Law and an expert on intellectual property, technology law, and Chinese law. He's also the author of Technology and the Public Interest which was the topic of another great DKC panel last year. So excited to have you back, Hao Chen. Thank you. And we're extremely lucky to have Chinmai Arun in conversation with the authors today. Chinmai is the Executive Director of the Information Society Project and a lecturer in law and research scholar at Yale Law School. Her research focuses on platform governance, social media, algorithm decision-making, the data economy and privacy, all within the larger universe of questions raised by law's relationship with the Information Society. So there's truly no one better that we could have gotten to moderate this conversation today. And with that, I'll hand it over to Chinmai. Firstly, as I was telling Anna Palm when he reached out, I couldn't be more privileged or honored to be the one that gets to do this. And it's very special because actually when I met Anna Palm, he was in Delhi launching the electronics of drugs. So I love the full circle that this makes and you'll know that Bergman is where I started my time at the US. So it's always been very special to me. We just spent the wonderful week in January discussing some related questions as to how it is wonderful for our conference at HKU. And so this really, it couldn't be more special. I am so grateful that you've invited me here to do this. I am going to get to it because I have committed to getting through as many of my questions as I can for the in the first half an hour so that you can talk to the authors. I will not be And so I am proceeding assuming that many of you have not read the book and so I'm going to ask questions that have been answered in it to give you a teaser of what is in it because I promise you will want to read it on a webinar without further ado. In your introduction, you have a wonderful line that I think says a lot about the book. You say when Thomas Hobbes imagined an artificial man in the form of a state, he was not picturing Facebook. And then you go on to define digital sovereignty. Can you tell the audience how you define digital sovereignty and why you came to this definition? Great. Well, first of all, I want to extend my great thanks to Chinmai for the Professor Arun for joining us here. I have admired her for a decade. And so from that meeting in Delhi to many meetings across the world. So so happy that you could join us here today. So I think what I want to do is tell the audience do not buy this book. And so the book can be downloaded for free online. OUP is charging prices really for libraries. I don't know why libraries insist on buying this book. It actually did chart on some Amazon charts for a little bit. I mean, these are very narrow, you know, law charts. And I was like, who is buying this book? You can press the download button. So the poster for this has a QR code, which is the download link. And I know that QR codes are kind of dangerous in many ways, but this is legit. Okay. So returning to your question, Chinmai. So the reference to Hobbes is intended to invoke the image of Leviathan, which of course Hobbes used to reference the state. And so many people have decided have noted that there are a handful of companies today that have Leviathan like powers that kind of the stride the world, you know, in the way that kind of Hobbes described the state. And so there's an artificial man here in the form of this giant corporate these giant corporations. And so they which rival the power of states and to a large extent, the assertion of digital sovereignty or data sovereignty is an attempt to wrestle these Leviathans to the ground, bring them down to earth and hold them to account for domestic law. Okay. So at that level, I think it's a truly understandable and natural response to the emergence of these giant corporations. And so in that sense, it's an effort to bring the digital world within democratic constraints. And in our book, we define digital sovereignty as simply the application of traditional state sovereignty to this digital or online domain, and including the companies, including in that context, the companies that create and provide services in this digital domain. So the fact is that the company could be based in the Caribbean or the United States or China, and we're going to hold it to account in our jurisdiction, regardless. Okay. So I think in that sense, digital sovereignty is a natural and critical part of what it means to have popular sovereignty. So it's directly linked to popular sovereignty in that way, democracy. And much of my own writing is very much animated by, you know, thinking about popular sovereignty. And so what it means in the kind of digital domain today. At the same time, I want to say the book is also concerned about the way that control over the digital domain, whether exercised by Mark Zuckerberg, or President or Premier or Governor General X, can itself raise different concerns. And so this is, this is so we need to be mindful about the way that it's governed, the way that we assert control over it, whether it's done from the by, by Elon or Mark, or Sundar or whomever it is, or take your politician that you are most concerned about and substitute them in that, in any of those names. So I think the, and I just want to make a distinction here, also in the book, we had a lot of trouble actually, is this, we're talking about digital sovereignty or how the data sovereignty, the book title is has kind of both in it. And the book is uses more digital sovereignty than data sovereignty. And so it kind of goes back and forth. I think one can usefully distinguish data sovereignty and digital sovereignty. But they become very hard to disaggregate once you press the concepts. So if you really say, you know, you're focused on controlling data flows or the what data can move in the country, that immediately calls up speech and content regulation, which is often not things that we think about when we think about data sovereignty. And so, you know, I've written a lot about cross border flows of data, which really are another way to see information sharing across borders, right. And so suddenly raises all these issues that are in a totally different domain than we think of as traditional data regulations. So, so I found the two concepts which can be differentiated to be, it's, I think it's, I think it's better to think of them as it's really linked and not try to make such a big distinction between the two. Because when you press them, they kind of merge in a pretty good way. And you see governments that kind of use both concepts. And I did searches within government uses of the term, you know, when does the US government use the term data sovereignty or digital sovereignty. The amazing thing I found in this context is that when the US government used the term, it simply uses the term to reference European unions approach to the internet. It is the Brussels effect in that way, right. And what we describe in the book is that the US never had to worry about data sovereignty or digital sovereignty, because we had it from the very start. Because the companies were based here, we, you know, even when a company would be based in the Caribbean, we prosecute the American who ran that company when he transited through, when he made the mistake of transiting through JFK, or, or picked it, picked him up in Costa Rica, etc. We would, we would, our FBI was very good at figuring out your movements across the world and gathering you from wherever you were. If we thought you're running the foul of US law. We prosecuted a Russian who came to DEF CON to share some information about how he had kind of created a system to allow access to Adobe ebooks early on, because he, because he was allowing you to violate, you know, DMCA controls on, on copyrighted material. He said he was just allowing, and this will be of interest to folks interested in disability questions. He said he was just allowing disabled people to access these ebooks. And so we picked him up when he arrived in Las Vegas. And so we had data from the digital company from the start, whether it was a Russian company or it was a Caribbean company or an American company, we insisted on it from the start. I'll leave it at that and come back to these questions. So I'm going to invite our channel to pitch in, but I'm just, I'm going to layer in my second question, which is that I know that both of you have been friends for a long time and that you've worked together, but I want to invite you to feel back the co-authorial veil and talk a little bit about why you decided to write this book together and how you came to an agreement about what digital sovereignty means as you come from different backgrounds and countries that do things in different ways. So if I can invite you to respond to that. Thank you. So first of all, I also want to thank Berkman Klein Center for hosting today's book launch. As some of you know, I gave a talk on my book, Technology and Public Interest last year here, right here. So it's so great to be back at Berkman Klein Center. And I also want to thank Professor Arun for joining us commenting and discussing about this book with us today. So as you can immediately tell, Anupang is the scholar who knows this subject matter best in the entire world.  He's the, as I said, he's the scholar who master this subject matter. And so there, but there actually there is a long story that I would like to share with you about, you know, how we come together to collaborate on this project. So it actually, it started from a trip, this grand trip that Anupang made back in 2019 before the pandemic. So he paid a visit to the greater China area, covering Hong Kong and China. And so he first arrived in Hong Kong and we met and then we decided to go to Shenzhen, which is right next to Hong Kong.  So we went through the borders, physical borders and physical sovereignty, you know, the sovereignty first, then at the immigration. So we, I, you know, cleared the immigration very quickly. But then I waited for Anupang for such a long time. I wonder whether Anupang could actually go through the China's immigration and actually, you know, we could make this visit to multiple tech companies, you know, visit possible. Probably we waited for 30 minutes, 40 minutes, something like that. So that was the moment that we dealt with this kind of physical or traditional sovereignty. China's exercising, you know, sovereignty over this great scholar, you know, I'm not sure how many questions you received from the officer at immigration, but anyway. So we first dealt with this kind of physical sovereignty first, when we were visiting Shenzhen.   And people there were so eager asking me and Anupang a range of questions about how they should deal with cross-border flow of data, for example, how they deal with data localization in China. But then if they want to do business outside of China, for example, in South Asia, the PNG technology folks asked us a range of questions about how, for example, how they store data in the Philippines, countries like that, you know, how they should deal with another kind of sovereignty, let's say called, as Anupang explained, a data or digital sovereignty. So then we had such vibrant discussion with tech folks there in Shenzhen. So after our visit, we sat down to talk about various issues that we dealt with during the visit. And then Anupang was still struggling with jelly. So, but then immediately after we talked about collaboration, this potential conference, he suddenly became so alert. That was a fantastic moment. We had in Shenzhen, of course, we had such fun, tasty food that I'm sure you can still recall that this kind of data place, data place was a CQ conference that we had in Shenzhen. But then when we started talking about collaboration, Anupang suddenly overcame jelly and we talked about how we should deal with this project. Immediately we thought of hosting a conference together in Hong Kong, because this is a hub where we could put together so many scholars. Hong Kong is really a hub for international travels. So then we planned, but then, as you know, the next year, the pandemic arrived. So then we decided to, we still wanted to do this conference. How could we do it? So we decided to co-host the conference, by the way, it was co-hosted by my school, HKU, and your school, Georgetown University Law Center. So we decided to move this event online, so it became a virtual event. But we were so fortunate that we got two keynote speeches, one delivered by Professor Ma Gu, the Professor here at HK Harvard Law School, and then another keynote delivered by Frank Pasquale, who is now a Professor at Cornell Law School in 2010. And we also put together so many scholars, and if you're interested, you can see their speeches in the book. So we hosted the conference online, and then it took us two years or so to put everything together, because it was so hard to putting things together through the pandemic. People were so, I was me, it was all me. But we're so glad, you know, everything came through. And this is the book, as Anupang pointed out, you don't need to buy the book. It's, you know, we arranged open access. So, and as to the question about how we reached the consensus of concerning various issues, especially the concept of data sovereignty, I feel like there is no disagreement between the two of us, because, you know, Anupang, as you mentioned, you guys mentioned that conference hosted in India, right? Okay. So actually, I first met Anupang here at Harvard Law School, although he was not my professor when he was visiting various law schools, but he, you know, he picked my paper on the social justice IP for this Harvard and International Junior Scholars Conference. So that one was hosted at Harvard Law School. So we actually got to know each other many years ago, and we have talked with so many things ranging from international property to tech law and Anupang cares about international training, that international law and liberal democracy so much. And I feel like I have so much, you know, we have so much in common. So we actually did not have any disagreement. And, but we talked about various kind of things, you know, whether, for example, the book title, whether it should be data sovereignty or data sovereignty. But anyway, it was we had a range of discussion instead of having, you know, various kind of disagreements. Can I just say one of them, just a little, you know, it's really interesting because there's a lot of criticism of China in our in the two chapters that we wrote in this book.  And I wasn't really sure, you know, how it would be for a scholar, you know, who's based in China to participate in these in that, and to put his name to some of this criticism. It's been fascinating that that hasn't been an issue. I hope I don't make an issue that it's just just as you're thinking about these collaborations, as you're thinking of collaborations, you know, across, you know, fraught, you know, political circumstances. It is, you know, something to navigate, you know, and I think for us, it's been very fruitful and I've learned a lot from Hao Chen. And, but I know that there's a lot of nervousness around around this question, especially in the United States and China. Yeah, I remember that when we were sort of putting together the chapters in back in 2021, that was the year in which DD, China's, you know, you know, China's equivalent to Uber here, was about to go public in New York. And then this deal was, you know, halted by the Chinese government. And we talked about this kind of scary moment, and how we should deal with this subject matter in our book. And we're so fortunate, fortunate that we, I think we talked about this, you know, drama in our intro. And we also have contributors dealing with such an important issue as well. Yeah, that was the launch of the Chinese tech crackdown. The DD move was, you know, basically demolished a trillion dollars of market cap of Chinese tech companies, that and, and, and shortly thereafter, other moves. So very interesting to watch as China went after its own companies during that process. Thank you. That's a wonderful answer. And it also, a lot of my friends ask, say that it's hard to tell where your friendships and then where your collaborations begin. And I'm like, it's, it is hard to tell because they're all intertwined. So thank you. That was wonderful. It was nuanced. I had a China question that I'm going to hold with in case other people do. And I feel like you'll answer half of it already. So I'm going to ask you my broader question. And then after that, maybe you could have a conversation with the audience, which is that the book, I love that it discusses many kinds of sovereignty, states, territorial sovereignty, discuss companies, ideas on duty. But in my work, I've been reading a little bit and thinking a little bit about how to break outside territorial democracy and including people's voice and giving people some. Where would you say this, this idea of democracy and the people fits in this, in this sort of geopolitical discourse of titans? So let me begin. You know, I mentioned popular sovereignty earlier as kind of a through line in much of my work. By the way, this, you know, Terri and the professors will appreciate this all goes back to what I thought about what the seminars I took when I was in law school, I took a seminar with a kilomar on popular sovereignty. And so I still that that issue is at the, you know, various seminars or moments in my, in my law school education really animate my work, you know, I don't want to tell you how many decades later. But so I, you know, this is obviously a critical thing. I began in your first question by responding that this, you know, we had these new Leviathans. And this was a way to, for countries to assert themselves vis-à-vis these Leviathans. I should also note that there are also small players. So, you know, one of the worries that I have about internet regulation is that when governments regulate, they regulate based off with five companies in mind. They think it has really five companies and internet is far more complicated than that. And so I think it's important to think about smaller companies as well. But what we see, I think digital sovereignty is an expression very much of popular sovereignty in that way. And so, so I think it's necessary. And so, you know, I have, I think it's, it's, but I also, you know, in the book we say it's both necessary and dangerous. It's both critical for popular sovereignty and it's better more because it can, that kind of control, the control that you can get through territorial control and digital control is a combination that is an incredibly powerful mix. And so I think we should be very cautious about that, right? There's a kind of totalitarianism that's possible today that really, you know, would have been the hope of many totalitarianism in the past. So I think we need to be very cautious about this. In the book, we also have our concern that this is not just a warning to traditional, to governments that we traditionally view as authoritarian. So what I want to do also in the book is really kind of, you know, not just simply say there's a northern ethical tech regulation and a southern unethical tech regulation. I want to avoid that kind of framing. And so basically to say, you know, ethical and unethical tech regulation occurs in all domains. And we should be cautious about it everywhere. We should be critical about it in China and in the United States, etc. That's, I'm not trying to draw false equivalents. I think there's certainly, you know, different worries that one might have and things like that. But I think we need to be cautious about it. And let me give you a couple examples. So this last summer, there was a police killing, you know, that I don't know if he followed here in the United States, but a police killing in Paris of a 17 year old immigrant from 17 year old who was a descendant of North African immigrants. Okay, a boy. And the police said, you know, he was threatening, etc. Video then later arrived that suggested that the police did not appear to be under threat. You know, I'm not saying I know definitively what, you know, the story is, but there was serious questioning of the police account that video made possible. And in the wake of that, there was rioting and police men and women were injured in Paris, etc., in other jurisdictions.  And so, you know, there was an effort to, and he named tech platforms, Snapchat, TikTok, were the one cause of the rioting. When one might have wondered whether or not there were other possible reasons for the population to express itself in this way. I'm not pro- rioting, etc., but the question here is, you know, so what happens next? So what does TikTok do? What does Snapchat do in response? Well, you got this new law coming on the books, now on the books, the Digital Services Act, which wasn't on the books then. By the way, during that, during the course of those conversations, he said, you know, we could ban these platforms, okay, floating the idea, okay. The DSA, the Digital Services Act, doesn't have a ban sanction available, but a temporary suspension sanction available. But I think that's actually even the real threat. But there are other sanctions within that system that basically allow the government to say, hey, we don't like what you're doing.  This isn't your issue, perhaps, you know, on any particular issue. You simply steer the algorithm in a particular way so that you don't come on, you know, you don't cause any problems with the local authorities and lead to adverse consequences within the political system. So I think those things, you know, we should be watchful about that as well. We should make sure that if there are, you know, I have a paper on the DSA, which I suggest needs more. It doesn't have enough checks and balances built into it, doesn't have enough, it has a lot of powers, but not enough protections built into it. And I think we need to be thinking about these things in a variety of ways. And then let me just say this morning, the Biden administration sanctioned a group called, it's called Intellexus, sorry, I wrote it down. It's sanctioned a company called Intellexus, Intellexa Consortium, okay, which turns out because, why? Because Intellexa is selling surveillance as a service. And a lot of these companies turn out to be based in Europe, okay. This is a Greek company that's selling surveillance as a service. And so the worry is that, you know, it's selling it indiscriminately and it's being used to target dissidents in various ways across the world. And I think Western governments need to do a lot more because we properly complain about Chinese companies selling authoritarian technology in Africa and elsewhere. And I think that's exactly right. But we should also be very concerned when you can buy tools that can hack your iPhone, et cetera. And these are Western companies doing it. And European, I haven't seen the European regulators act on these questions, basically at all. And so you see, so there's a lot of European action against American companies, maybe they should also be looking within their own borders. This is exactly why I enjoyed the book and enjoy your work so much. It is a complete picture. It asks all of these questions that I'm always eager to know the answers to. So as you can imagine, I have many more questions, but I don't want to be selfish. So I'm now opening by the audience to ask questions. And if you don't have any, then I will go through them. But I cannot believe that you don't have any. Well, I might selflessly jump into the phone as well. The picture of these, these the return of the stage to wrestle these polypens, I think it's a really compelling one. And I just love to hear your thoughts that maybe about trends that have emerged over the last, since you've put the book together and started working on the book of states exerting power to create national champions in the context of cloud infrastructure or AI. So not just to assert control over these foreign digital presences, but rather to create national capacities to assert some sort of independence and to create or to prevent reliance on foreign sort of sources of those services and whatever else. So I love your thoughts about that different sort of emergence of the state in the last couple of years. So I'll begin quickly. So by the way, in my own mind, I always think of the other book that I go to is of course Gulliver's Travels with Leviathan, who is, you know, not actually that big in his own land, but when he travels to another land, quite enormous. And then it's tiny little Ephesians who try to wrestle him down to the ground. And in some sense, that is partly what's going on. But your question is with respect to the effort to create national champions. One of the striking things about the Chinese actions was how they were really focused on their own national champions. It was Tencent that got it. It was DD, which, you know, was on its way to incredible success until it suddenly wasn't, until it became, you know, desperately fighting for survival, etc. So it's just fascinating to see that I think, you know, we'd love to hear from Houchin a little bit more about why he thinks that happened with the tech crackdown in China in particular. But the desire to build an indigenous tech ecosystem is shared across the world. No one wants to be reliant entirely on U.S.-based companies or Chinese-based companies. My worry in this context is that sometimes when governments essentially act in protectionist ways, so, you know, I studied a lot of economic development, which, and the goal of economic development for many decades in the last half, in much of the 20th century, the goal was to replace foreign enterprise with domestic enterprise. And that often was a failure. And so I think it's, you know, that history should be a caution for this effort, because it turned out to raise costs for the rest of enterprise that depended upon those particular things. The United States today, if you build, so we're trying to put in, you know, huge semiconductor plants, etc. Turns out that in battery plants, when Panasonic is building these things, it needs a lot of steel. And by the way, you have to buy American steel. And that makes it very hard for Panasonic to actually build the battery plants in the United States. So, you know, we're trying to help steel workers on one side, but we're harming a huge swath of industry on the other side. So I think we should be cautious about that. And I think, so I am nervous about the national champions model of economic development. I do think everyone should figure out how can we best empower our domestic industry and have the benefit from these things. But I'm very concerned about the protectionism that is very popular. And there's an easy logic to protectionism, but that history doesn't really, history doesn't bear it out as a very successful strategy. Thank you for the question. So let me quickly talk about China, because it is absolutely a strategy that this so-called national champion strategy that China has been adopted and applied. And as Anong pointed out, these big companies such as Tencent, DD are the best examples. But I think the landscape in China is very complicated. And nowadays, it's easy to portray China as a sooner this kind of state or government oriented regulation of tech development of tech. But on the other hand, we have the United States, which will follow this market based approach. And then in the European Union, it has the rights based approach, exemplified by the GDPR. But this conventional portrayal of China might be a little bit kind of narrow-minded, I think. I would say that actually the tech development in China started from this kind of market-oriented model in the very first place. For example, the rise of Tencent, the rise of Alibaba, or began with this kind of market practice. For example, Alibaba is an e-commerce platform. E-commerce means that you buy things through platforms such as Alibaba, through voluntary transactions, market-oriented practice, contract-based transactions. And also Tencent, for example, is an example about providing, chatting apps, services, and then later on gaming and advertisement that Tencent is known for offering services like that. So the rapid growth of these tech companies shows that at the very beginning, China followed this kind of market-oriented approach, especially when China opened its door to the rest of the world and needs international investment, foreign investment. So I would say that we need to have this kind of historical review of tech development in China first. The development of tech in China following these kind of market-oriented practices, but then later on there is this kind of strange development. For example, I would say this market-oriented approach is also governed by over a sort of couple with state-oriented regulation. I think the best example is the kind of great firewall that China has exerted in the country, which means that several major tech companies such as Google or Facebook are not allowed to do business in China because of this great firewall practice. And at the same time, Chinese citizens could not have access to information that is displayed outside this great firewall. But that practice actually was very good for Chinese companies because it walled off competition from international companies such as Google and Facebook. So within China, you can see that the market-oriented arrangement at the same time, the government's intervention actually at the very beginning helped tech companies, although in many foreigners' eyes, these great firewall practices were totally an anti-market-based economy where it was or is still authoritarian. But so that's the very early stage, I would say. But then later on, you can see that Chinese government has started targeting the national champions as we pointed out earlier. So that's another shift that China has witnessed. And I would say this, we still have this kind of market-oriented practice. But at the same time, there has been more and more of state intervention not only targeting foreign tech companies but also dealing with national tech companies as well. I think there is one easy way to understand this major shift. This is because the Chinese government wanted to have one single voice within the country which will make the government better off when they operate this kind of authoritarian regime. And they realized that this kind of tech regulation is necessarily needed if they wanted to assert that power because it is the tech companies or social media platforms nowadays that deal with speech regulation and as well as the control of opinions that could be so powerful for governmental regulation. I think the Chinese government learned so much from the 2011 and the competition between I think it was 2016 presidential election, the competition between Hillary and Trump. Social media played such a major role in somehow deciding the outcome of the election. For example, the rise of the fake news, the use of social media platforms to advocate various voices. So I believe that the Chinese government learned such a big lesson from the US presidential election and they wanted to also exert tighter control of big tech as well. So there are various reasons why you can see that big shift. But then again, the rise of the tech war or trade war between China and the United States also kind of started to shape this kind of national champion strategy. And then the story again is very complicated. So you can see that things are starting from the trip war, the US ban on exporting chips to China actually sounded the awakening moment in China. People realized or the government realized they couldn't really rely upon foreign export. So this kind of fostering of national champions is absolutely important. But you know that it's so hard to make advanced chips within one country. You can see the rise of Taiwan, Taiwanese companies, the rise of Dutch companies in these games. But then there's another story I would tell is that although you can see that there is heavy regulation in big tech in China, but also when it comes to electric companies or electric car industry in China, you can see that the Chinese government has been providing so much support. For example, through state subsidy, there's a one city that you must visit, or there's one electric car company that you must pay attention to. This is a city is called Shenzhen. We're on a company I visited back in 2019. And then this company, Shenzhen, this company BYD. Now the sale of BYD electric car has surpassed Tesla. And I think that profit margin that this company is also outpaced Tesla. But the growth of this company actually has, similar to a large extent, of course, is a great company, a lot of innovation. But state of support played a major role. But there's one interesting story I want to share. If you go to Shenzhen, you can see that taxis there, taxi cars there, there's only one brand, BYD. So I'm pretty sure that there was this kind of citywide plan to purchase BYDs electric cars. In the name of environmental protection, in the name of promoting electric car industry in Shenzhen. So this kind of state support is obvious and widespread. But then when I was visiting Munich for the very first time, I saw that, oh my god, for the very first time, there is this one city with one single brand for taxi cars. Mercedes-Benz, I was shocked. This is luxurious car brand. But how come it was service? Taxi cars, excuse me, taxi cars use one single brand, Mercedes-Benz. But later on, I realized it must have been achieved through market-based arrangement. But back in Shenzhen, you can see that there was very firm and strong state support fostering and promoting electric car industry in China. So I would say this kind of national champion strategy is very complicated in China. Market-oriented practice of state support, state regulation. I want to come to various national interests. I think for the time being, the most important thing is this kind of national interest or how we can make this authoritarian regime sustainable. So regulation of social media platform, at the same time, promotion of electric car industry. I think the picture there is so interesting. Questions in the room? Hi, thank you so much for being here and for the talk. Can I ask you to just identify yourself? Yeah, my name is Yavanna. I'm an LLM student at the Law School. And I'm curious to ask if you could like share a little bit more about the choices about straight regulation and legalization as the two last parts of the book. If this was a solution to making a more interoperable and like divided power and kind of like try to break the super nations or if this was just a way of showing what is currently happening and the promises and challenges of these both kind of like solutions now. So let me try to answer that. So the book has a variety of views on the question of data localization. And so you've got Graham Greenleaf who is probably a little bit more sympathetic to data localization. You've got KS Park, Kempston Park. So Graham is a professor at Australia and Kempston is a professor at Pre-University Law School. And you've got others, Neha Mishra and Gwajna student Geneva. And you've got Doug Arner writing a legalization one of Pagin's colleagues at University of Hong Kong. So there are variety of views in the book. I'll just say my views on this question because it's a copy of terrain. I'm seeing data localization as really the 21st century industrial policy which is build your factories here. We will stop the unfortunate coming in. India did this for much of its early, for its first 50 years of development. And as I tried to hint at before, as I said before, I haven't seen that as a very successful strategy historically. And maybe there's something different today about data localization as opposed to Nick kicking out foreign companies. The digital space may be different than kicking them out in the industrial space. And I think those are important questions to ask. I'm not convinced. So first a few quick points here. Data localization means put this huge facility on the ground somewhere in your country. If you've ever visited one of these data centers, how many people do you meet? It's a handful of people. And what is the investment? It's not in the people. It's in the computers, the computer servers, the land, and the energy. And it could be water supplies as well.  So energy and water tend to be very precious and rare commodities, especially in the development world. And so you're putting more strain on local energy grid. It might not be as green as alternatives.  So that would be ideal. Data localization doesn't care if it's green. Data localization says build it here. And so when people say, oh, this is a billion dollar cloud center, most of that money is in the investment of the computers that go in there, which are imported from somewhere else. So it's also part of the, you know, what is that billion dollars? Is that billion dollars going into the domestic economy? Typically not. It's a huge kind of draw of energy and water in the local domain. So is that helping people? And then who's benefiting? Okay. Does the fact that your cloud sits here, as opposed to there, then create a local, you know, software industry based on the local cloud. It's not so clear, right? And so what you're doing is you potentially raising the costs for your local software industry to access the cloud. So in many jurisdictions like in Brazil, you know, Brazil thought about this, they looked and said, look, actually domestic cloud is much more expensive. And you've got a lot of companies saying, hey, you're forced us to only source from the domestic cloud providers or force the foreigners to go domestic, you're actually reducing our, you know, you're making things much more difficult for us. So then finally, cybersecurity, you know, by kicking out lots of companies by reducing competition, I think you ultimately harm cybersecurity. So I think in a variety of measures, digitalization is not a great policy. I've actually described in a new paper working on that digitalization is going to be much worse, because now it's not only kicking out. It's basically saying you not only have to localize here, you have to localize here on local companies. So you can't be able to ask to build a cloud locally. Yeah, you can't just, you can't be a US at all. It can't be Microsoft, can't be Apple, can't be Google or Oracle. And that I think is even more costly. My name is Pengfei, I'm a visiting scholar for Harvard Law School, for the law. So I have a question for Professor Shen. So I agree with you say that because China has built a war, therefore foreign company cannot re-enter. And then China's domestic internet companies scale up. But I think that there is an exception. Amazon did arrive in China at a very early stage and was allowed to buy the domestic economy. And in that scenario, there was no war, you know, pie. But then you'll find that Amazon does not re-survive as a giant in China. Then someone said it has to do the fact that the Chinese industry and the internet industry probably developed with its own Chinese characteristics. I just want to note your perspective on this regard. Also related on probably a little bit tougher. So since China and the United States are now competing with each other in the AI sector, which is kind of a next chapter of digital sovereignty, I would say. So in this regard, I just want to hear your comments. Who will find and when from your prediction? Thank you. Thank you so much. These are great questions and these are really, really great questions. So let me try to respond to the first question. So let me quickly ask an audience here. How many of you know KendoDuo, another e-commerce company and its application here called Temu? Okay, great. So I think there is a story behind the competition between Amazon and a variety of e-commerce platforms in China. As you rightly pointed out, China allowed Amazon to do business in China. So I think e-commerce was fine at the time. But if you want to say both things, it was not okay in China. But sustaining money is fine with Chinese government. But if you were speaking something loud in the social media platform, for example, through Google or Facebook, it was not allowed. So that was the difference. So money was not an issue. We welcome money. So that's the thing and why Amazon was permitted to do business in China. Although I'm not sure whether CEO Amazon had any special relationship with any top leaders in China. Maybe he speaks Chinese or he's good at cooking Chinese food. I don't know about that. But you can see that this kind of nature of the business Amazon has carried out in China. But unfortunately, this great American company Amazon has done such a great job in this country and many countries around the world. But surprisingly, I think Amazon, as you rightly pointed out, Amazon could not really compete well with many other e-commerce platforms in China, such as Alibaba, Taobao, T-Mall, Pingguo Luo, and also Jingdong, another major e-commerce platform. I think culture is a big thing. And also the kinds of services and goods that they could provide is also another story. These are the major reasons I think Chinese platforms have won in the competition. First of all, Chinese platforms know local culture very well. They know customs preferences, what they exactly needed. And also the kind of services and goods that provide is also another cutting edge that Chinese companies had when they were competing with Amazon, because they know how to source the most affordable products, the products that they Chinese customers need. For example, they launched this kind of November 11th shopping festival. They just exactly know how this kind of singles day has animated people's interest in spending, of course, by offering really, really big discounts. But at the same time, you know what singles day is, right? Singles day is when you spend money on yourself. Taking care of yourself. So which is a great idea, right? And it's 1111, right? November, November, exactly. I mean, like, utterly brilliant. It could have done anywhere in the world, right? It's a brilliant Chinese e-commerce platform, creates this for and creates the, you know, phenomenal shopping day for the country. So as Anupang Adler pointed out, so if you want to do well, I mean the best, if you want to do business well in China, you not only need to know local culture very well, but also, you know, you have to sort of, you know, fund the best of, you know, business practices, right, at the same time. As to the AI question, again, this is such a big question. And I think this is the, ultimately, the most important question these days. Unfortunately, we actually have multiple chapters in the book talking about this, you know, AI thing. And for example, Andrew Woods has a chapter dealing with the rise of AI and how, especially data training process, how various countries deal with data training for the development of AI technology. So if you're interested, you can read that chapter. I strongly recommend it. But as to the AI rivalry between United States and China, as far as I know, you can see that there are two critical things that this wall will turn out to be. One is, I would say hardware, as you pointed out earlier, computers and all kinds of things. So now, computers and what, you know, one thing, but the trips, you know, are the really important matters as well. So, but then you can see that when it comes to AI, who controls trips, it is this country and also Taiwan. Okay, so now, for example, Naveedia's, you know, GPU is really dominating this, you know, landscape. So then there comes this kind of export ban imposed by the Biden administration, as you know. So the hardware side, I think China is not doing well. It cannot, you know, produce trips that are equivalent to Naveedia's GPU. When it comes to data, as I said, data is another critical thing to deal with the AI development. Here in this country, I think there is not strong regulation when it comes to collection and usage of data. So that's why AI companies can scrap so much information from the internet, ways that you don't really know. Okay, but in China, to a certain extent, you know, collection and usage of data is not that much regulated, but then you can see that the state actually heavily regulated the way that people can speak and the way that tech companies can collect and use data as well. And when it comes to data localization, I think this is one of the best examples. Chinese companies have such strict rules dealing with data localization. And also, I think diversity of data is very important. The amount of data you have is one thing, but the diversity of data is another thing. And we need to have, you know, various kinds of data can train AI models well. But then I can see that Chinese company lacks this kind of diversity because of one of the reasons is exactly about the great wall that China has built upon. So they Chinese tech companies may have difficulty in, you know, accessing and utilizing foreign data. And, you know, as I mentioned, various reasons for making data diverse. So I can see that China is not doing well in competing with the United States in this kind of grand AI wall for these kinds of major, two major reasons. But I cannot predict who will win because so far you can see that who is winning, but we don't know what will happen in China in the future. So I will say, now we have these two major players indeed in the AI sector. Unfortunately, we don't have any big tech company in the European Union. Sadly, there are no big players in Japan as well. So I hope the two big giants will compete ethically and peacefully. We don't need to see another third world war because of the AI rivalry. We're a little past time. I don't know if you have any final remarks or questions you wanted to end with. I could carry on all day, but I will not do that to you because I know your place is today. I mean, you know, this has been a wonderful way to scan the surface of people. I hope that all of you got an idea of why I think it's a wonderful and that you will take that lead. And I hope we will say that we will run into these two brilliant authors again, as I fortunately will for sure this year. I know where I'm going to see both of them so that you can continue the conversation. But it honestly is such a rich book and it asks and answers questions that I think are so under discussed. So thank you both for writing the book, but also for giving me the privilege of having this conversation with you. Thank you, Shinmai. I'm going to quickly end with two quick comments. One, I wanted to commend a particular paper in the book by Liz Lu and Barry Weingast. It's on Taobao. And basically, it says Taobao created its own legal system. And that was one of the reasons it succeeded in China. And so it's a brilliant retelling of why one particular platform beat out Amazon. And so just a fascinating point. So second, I'll make three quick ones. Teimu, which Haochun mentioned, has now come under national security scrutiny in the United States. Okay. So this e-commerce app selling household goods is being reviewed for national security concerns. And this is in the last couple of years, there is some of this in the book already, the national security deterrent in all of this. Digital sovereignty is more and more about national sovereignty. Finally, on the AI and a question that you asked and digital sovereignty, Haochun hinted at the concern that the generative AI would say unconfined things about the Chinese government. Well, this is a concern that's not only shared by, you know, clearly authoritarian governments. This is a concern shared by governments across the world and politicians across the world certainly. So you saw yesterday an announcement in India of a kind of rule that said, if you have untested models, AI models, they have to be approved by the government before they're released. Well, this kind of coincided with news reports a couple of weeks ago that that someone had asked, I think it's Gemini, Google's Gemini, is Modi fascist. Okay. And it had given a possible plausible answer saying, you know, there are some aspects of this, etc. You know how you can imagine the voice of the chatbot in this. And so the coincidence between this is not, I think, pure coincidence. Just again tell you, you know, this is these are concerns that we have across the world in every jurisdiction. I know that Modi tends, you know, we can, whether or not he's democratic or not is an open question, etc. He's certainly very popular thus far. But so it's, so these are really difficult issues across the world. All right. Well, I hope you guys will join me in thanking our guests today.  So we hope to see you guys either in person or join virtually. But thanks everyone and have a wonderful day.


of a downtrodden nation, the lives of millions, men, women and children that had come to an end in their stead, only crumbling stones. In Warsaw, home to over half a million Jews before the Holocaust, only the Jewish cemetery remained to attest to the vibrant life that had flourished before the advent of the Nazi X-Men. The only Jewish synagogue in Warsaw that was still standing, the Nogik synagogue, a few dozen souls gathered, snatched from the jaws of carnage. A bloodstained Torah skull was handed to my grandfather by the survivors to be taken to the land of Israel for internal memory. The former cantor of the great synagogue, Moshe Kosevitzky, stood to recite the traditional Jewish prayer for the departed, El Malerachamim, O God of Compassion. Only this time, the wording of the prayer was different than usual, because my grandfather rewrote it so that it might express the pain, the loss and the grief in the wake of the chilling destruction that is unfolded before his eyes. He rewrote it and appealed to God to grant perfect rest to our brothers and sisters, victims of the horrific Holocaust after the thousand painful deathly blows that they have suffered on this earth. I stand before you today as the president of the State of Israel, the democratic nation-state of the Jewish people, but my heart and thoughts are with my brothers and sisters killed in the Holocaust, whose only crime was their Jewishness and the humanity they bore. Beloved and cherished, never parted in life or death. They dared to hope and dream even in the midst of devastation. In their memory, I will begin my remarks with this traditional prayer. El Malerachamim, O God, who are full of compassion, grant perfect rest on the wings of the Divine Presence, on the pinnacles of the Holy and the Pure, to the souls of the 6 million Jews, victims of the Holocaust, who were killed, suffocated, burned and martyred by the German murderers and their accomplices from other nations. Therefore, may the merciful one shelter them forever in the safety of his wings and bind their souls in the eternal bonds of life. God is their legacy and may they rest in peace in the Garden of Eden and may they stand for their fate and let us say Amen. Madam President of the European Parliament, Roberto Metzola, Madam Commissioner of the European Commission, Ursula von der Leyen, honored members of the European Parliament, ambassadors, members of Knesset, distinguished guests. On the afternoon of 23 July 1944, the Jews of the Greek island of Rhodes were forced to stand in a long line facing the western wall of the old city. The rest of the city's population was forbidden to step outside. The Nazis were not sated by the elimination of the glorious communities of Saloniki and others, home to 98% of Greece's Jews. And so, from that holding site, over 1600 Jews from Rhodes were marched and loaded into three old cargo vessels led by SS officers. For eight days and nights, in a nightmarish voyage, a monstrous odyssey, the Jews of Rhodes were at sea. The heat was intense. The food was meager. Seven people were killed during the voyage. Their bodies were thrown into the sea. Another ship was sent to the island of Kos to pick up close to 100 Jews. Yet another ship was sent to the island of Leros, a small and remote island, to hunt down the only Jew who lived there. Just one man. That was the whole Jewish community of Leros. One Jew, solitary, alone. The last one. His name was Daniel Rachamim. Rachamim is the Hebrew word for compassion. Rachamim, as in the prayer I just recited. Rachamim, compassion he never received.  Such an inseparable and essential part of Europe, the Jewish people. Why did he take a single person? Why go through the trouble? asked Daniel Rachamim. He didn't know that for the Nazis, his mere existence was a crime punishable by death. And that, in his case, being was a crime. The people aboard these ships reached Athens after a journey and from there they were loaded onto cattle wagons, the destination Auschwitz extermination camp and the purpose of annihilation. Daniel Rachamim, the last Jew from Lyros, rounded off this procession. There are some dates in history that overspill the boundaries of time and become themselves a memory. In 1945, the 27th of January he went from being just another date to becoming a memorial site when in the afternoon the gates of hell were burst open. Five years too late, the Auschwitz extermination camp, the largest death factory in human history was liberated by the soldiers of the Red Army and stopped operating. Snow covered the blood-drenched soil in Buchenwald, Dachau, Terezinstadt, Bergen-Belsen and so many other places, their horrors continued for many more months until their liberation. My father, the sixth president of the State of Israel, Chaim Herzog, was an officer in the British Army at the time. He was born in Ireland. He was privileged to land in Normandy across the Rhine and take part in the liberation of the Netherlands, Belgium and northern Germany. I shall never forget how he described to me the horrors that unfolded before his eyes as one of the first liberators of the death camps, including Bergen-Belsen, the human skeletons in their striped pajamas, the hell on earth, the stench, the heart of darkness, millions of worlds, one-third of the Jewish people were wiped out in the killing pits, in the gas chambers, in the furnaces, in the death camps. The whole thing is simply beyond comprehension, wrote a young Eti Hilsum from Holland in her diary before she was murdered in Auschwitz in 43. The skies are full of birds. Their purple lupine stand up so regally and peacefully. The sun is shining on my face and right before our eyes, mass murder. In the Nazi despicable final solution, they sought to rip at Europe's own flesh and blood, for just as humanity couldn't be what it is without Europe, couldn't be what it is without the Jews. Can anyone imagine a Europe without the theories of Sigmund Freud, without the genius of Albert Einstein or Emy Nutter? Is there such a thing as Europe without the echoes of Karl Marx's thought? How can one conceive of European philosophy without Spinoza or Henri Bergson or the spirit of European culture without Modelliani and Kafka? However, antisemitism, like an autoimmune disease, made Europe a part of its own DNA and a shared millennia-long history was erased, as if it has never been. Members of the European Parliament, the Holocaust was not born in a vacuum. We must never forget that the Nazi death machine would not have succeeded in realizing its vision had it not met soil fertilized with Jew hatred, which is as old as time itself. The stereotypical depiction of Jews had struck roots through Europe for centuries and generations before the rise of the Nazis. Nazi ideology intensified traditional antisemitism and primordial fears fanned the flames of hatred. Even before a single extermination camp was built in the minds of the masses, the Jew was already human dust, subhuman. It is precisely for this reason, precisely because the Holocaust was predicated on much older antisemitic foundations flourished in Europe, that this dark abyss is a terrible, profound, and compelling lesson for the whole of Europe. When we stand together here in the beating heart of the European Union, we understand well the mission of memory that we all share. We recognize that at the memorial site to which we make pilgrimage, we must remember not only the Holocaust and the destruction, but also the sacred alliance forged alongside this horrific disaster to sanctify the memory of the victims, to prioritize their welfare of the survivors who are still with us, to teach and educate in light of the lessons of the historic catastrophe and to prevent any repetition of these ghastly crimes. Today, we see movements on the extremes of European and world politics which proudly raise the ugly banner of antisemitism and once more threaten to turn democratic and civilized societies into ones that devour their own people. Unfortunately, the picture is disturbing, deeply disturbing. Antisemitic discourse festers not only within dark regimes, but within the heartlands of the free democratic West.  Antisemitism still exists. Holocaust denial still exists. The latest reports point to a new record of hatred as antisemitism continues to don new guises. This time it is active on virtual platforms as well. It's fueled by them. And the viral antisemitism is spreading at a record pace at the click of a button. The distance between a viral video and a physical attack hardly exists. The distance between a Facebook post and the smashing of headstones in a cemetery is shorter than we think. Deranged tweets can kill. They really can. Antisemites draw inspiration and ideas from virtual platforms. They're brainwashed and enraged as a result of unchecked and unrestrained online discourse. I stand before you. You who in your identities, positions and beliefs represent Europe's impressive diversity at the height of this sacred gathering and in the heart of the place that has always championed partnership in the war against darkness and evil and the joining of hands to uphold our most basic core moral and human values.  You must read the warning signs, detect the symptoms of the pandemic of antisemitism and fight at all costs. You must ensure that every Jew wanting to live a full Jewish life in your countries may do so safely and fearlessly. You and your countries must use every tool in your disposal, education and legislation, security and enforcement to deter and eradicate hatred, racism and antisemitism. You must instill the understanding across Europe that the Jewish people's right to state the state of Israel, which is why, among other things, you must move to full adopt the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance definition of antisemitism. And from this plenary, I wish to underscore the fine line between criticism of the state of Israel and negation of the state of Israel. It is of course okay to criticize the state I head. It is okay to criticize us and it is okay to disagree with us. Our country is open to criticism like all members of the family of nations. And Israel is exposed to any criticism as other countries. And Israel democracy anyway has self-criticism. However, and this is the critical difference. We cannot have criticism of the state of Israel become an negation of the very existence of the state of Israel. The nation state of the Jewish people is recognized by the institutions of the international community. Casting doubt on the nation state of Jewish people to exist is not legitimate diplomacy. It is antisemitism in the full sense of the word. And it must be thoroughly uprooted. The rule is simple. The rule is simple. The criticism of us must pass the basic test of fairness and integrity. And it must not cross the line into dehumanization or delegitimization. The state of Israel rolls like a phoenix out of the ashes and the terrible destruction and realized our historic right to a state of our whole ancient homeland. Once we will celebrate the 75th Independence Day of our country whose immense contribution to humanity and to Europe, in particular in countless fields including science, agriculture, energy, security, technology, culture, health and education and so much more. This is an established fact. We have withstood enormous challenges over these years. We've absorbed waves of Jewish immigration from over 100 countries. We've established a resilient and democratic society comprised of an unparalleled human mosaic of Jews and Arabs, people of every religion and faith. We've proven that we can take any action, any time, any place to protect our citizens and the whole Jewish people. We have courageously weathered attacks by our enemies and no less important, we've extended a hand in peace and have fought unprecedented alliance and peace accords including the Abraham Accords which have transformed and will transform the Middle East and I pray for the day we can reach peace with our Palestinian neighbors as well. An essential and fundamental part of our state's growth rests on the close ties and ironclad alliances with European states and the institutions of the European Union. Israel and Europe are bound together in an unbreakable bond. Our shared interests and even more so our shared values dictate our present and shape our future. Liberty, equality, justice, peace. These are the fundamental values enshrined that the creation of independence of the state of Israel will wish and uphold at any cost and these are also the core values of the European Union. I stand here not only in the name of the past but also for the sake of the future, for the sake of our shared prosperity so that we may apply in practice out of their understanding in true partnership we can overcome challenges and realize opportunities.  There is so much we can and must do together for our sake, for the sake of the future and for the sake of the future generations. This is a time of trial for all of us if we believe that the voice of justice has not been silenced. If we believe in another more compassionate humanity we must work together as a single community determined and cohesive against the forces of darkness and hatred that threaten us. As president of the state of Israel I speak first and foremost of the Iranian regime which not only publicly calls for the complete annihilation of my country but is also murdering its own countrymen and women demanding liberty, human civil rights. Iran is talking civil wars throughout the Middle East playing an active and lethal role in the war in Ukraine against the citizens of Ukraine and develop WMD on the way to dramatically threatening the stability of the entire globe and to conclude my friends until Eti Hilsum the young poet I quoted at the beginning of my speech was murdered in the gas chambers of Auschwitz, Birkenau a month and a half before her 30th birthday she kept writing in her diary Eti wrote about the orphan children forced to grow up too early about the love of Man Ken that has withered and about how much she wanted to live in her beautiful moving words she wrote one day we shall be building a whole new world against every new outrage and very fresh horror we shall put up one more piece of love and goodness love and goodness that was her dying wish her legacy that is our duty to pursue all of us together and in the words of the Jewish literature may it be your will king to whom peace belongs to set peace among Israel your people and may peace grow until peace is drawn upon every person in the world that's the prayer may the memory of the victims of the Holocaust be eternally etched in our hearts and may their souls be bound in the bond of life Amen You've just been listening to Israeli President Isaac Herzog addressing the European Parliament on Holocaust remembrance they they're touching on the history of anti-Semitism sharing personal anecdotes as well as his personal history about his grandfather also speaking about the anti-Semitic foundations that flourished in Europe and as well finishing up with speaking about Iran as well We're going to bring in I-24 News International Affairs Correspondent Batia Leventhal Batia you just heard that extensive speech from the Israeli President give us your thoughts on it now they're going to a minute of silence in the European Parliament as well talk to us about your thoughts about this speech Extensive but incredibly powerful something that Israeli leaders have in common is their ability to give a good narration and a good way of speaking they are brilliant but brilliant artists and the fact I think that this was done in Hebrew and then translated into languages so that everyone in the European Parliament had an understanding within their own language, their own culture again we've been speaking about this all day that Israel and the European Union have shared values have shared interests, have shared history there is no better place that Isaac Herzog could have delivered a speech of this magnitude on this topic than at the European Parliament and I think at least something that I was trying to assess in my own analysis watching this was something that Danny Ayalon touched on just before we went to the speech Education is so much more than simply just trying to teach someone about the history it also comes back to accountability in an area like Europe as you mentioned the biggest graveyard of the Jewish people we look at what's happened in past events or at least in recent events for example an EU member like Poland that completely white washes or at least attempts to whitewash its role in the Holocaust and its accountability and so I think that there was also a matter of speaking not just to countries in terms of the policies that they can implement now to have a sense of education but I think there was even a deeper sense of not necessarily pointing out but saying there has to be some accountability there has to be some rectifying of a situation that whether or not was brought on by a specific country definitely extended to other countries and I think that again could not have been a more powerful and present place by Isaac Erdogan to deliver a speech like this than the European Parliament and it also just speaks volumes to how good of an orator he is and how powerful a speech is when you have a standing ovation


Good morning, everyone. Sorry I'm late, but without further ado, let's get started So yesterday interesting day a sort of we talked about potentially taking a low before pushing up but we ended up just like sort of holding off doing anything sort of Or too aggressive and said we sort pushed a lot higher and In wake of sort of being at these lows already So cold So, I mean we took the highs here I mean the range got set up and each time we got sort of heavier shorts and shorts and shorts We've all sort of pushing up and that's where you have to start learning to read and these subtle changes, but in the in order flow I mean looking at sort of this sort of area here or Or really more here, but any time we did come down with these little shorts It's just sort of resets itself and just says okay pushes higher pushes higher At least go for these highs here Before anything and ends up sort of pushing that Pushing that and that's basically exactly what happened yesterday. We sort of look at that as you can see there you go there's your there's your points in terms of Pulling down It's just getting getting a lot more shorts and they're just stacking those shorts anytime someone was stacking those shorts Just came back and retested this area But retested where we did end up just collecting those shorts and then pushed up into this wall Does the same thing again just reconnects itself lets people enter into shorts before The second in a final third sort of push so there's your second one same thing third one Finally it caps it off and this is where you start seeing those failures where you have The walls placed on the other side to stop it Let's price off choke itself. You can see those Buys here and they just basically does the inverse of what we did here Well, we let those go short Then we get those longs high let those go short get some longs in so we break them Let's let them go short and again just reverses it and that's just like standard love so price very sort of easy and very simple to sort of just say Blanketly it's easy to sort of see and it's easy sort of understand that price will do something like this in terms of Like any time you want it to go lower you have to go a bit higher you have to have longs so we can push Price lower to get the quotations Because you're nice little double top for the day then just ends off and just smells out And gives right now where If we go back to this we're now creating nice little triple top One two three or in the form of creating a triple top So trading at sort of 50% of the Weekly range, which is interesting at least I'm shivering so my voice is a bit shaky. Ah So, I mean sure is a possibility we sort of create that trouble to up and push higher Yeah, it's something that you want to sort of look at but Alternatively, we can sort of have a statement where we bounce off of sort of currently this area here and push higher It's just would we get to here you've got to start considering is it sort of pertinent sort of reverse that position push down or Is it better to just say It'll continue up higher or not That's basically what we're sorry you have to sort of try and figure out when sort of training session comes in If you incorporate sort of everything here, you can see that there's your heavy offset of long So that's sort of where you typically expect Resistance to come in effect We have a short break here and another cluster of logs But this is where we start sort of tapering and changing off into having more shorts than lungs and this is where you essentially finds your sort of Closest sort of support within If we are to collect sort of shorts here, this is where you'd sort of find support If we were to collect longs here, so if we were to add longs, that's your resistance, but if we were to break glass through Into targeting this you sort of watch these collect longs add up to these longs here Before doing anything else The fact that we're sort of collecting these shorts here shows that I mean we could we could easily take that Like a bit higher. Take that push Drive it a bit further Looking at what things are doing now in just Collecting shorts. We've got these sort of bit of longs here, which is nice Just shows that still people willing to short at this high. We could easily go a bit further down before going up higher We still have the whole range sort of set up for today So there's a lot to do Yeah, it's too cold to talk. I was about to make rooms in the minuses Okay in terms of important sort of timings for today Just a simple one nine o'clock. Just coming up in one o'clock. Nothing else in terms of data is just a bit of speakers And that's it nothing sort of too important to sort of pay attention to So now we sort of got to wait on nine o'clock see what ends up happening looks like he's pushing down adding sort of a bit more in terms of Thoughts On a lot of things. We'll see what ends up happening if they sort of choose to collect short here then bounce on this side to sort of then go up higher for a bit and And then sort of drop it further They'll sort of break How we did Going a bit lower now Now what we're looking to do is see changes and the addition of sort of longs in this Edition of shorts rather in this area Ideally sort of collect on This wall at a maximum our minimum at the very but In terms of going down a bit further. This is where we do ideally wanted to bounce off that Comes at these highs here collect short. I mean we just overhang a bit Generally if we're here, we should be looking to add the shorts To the books and then bounce off of it That's ideally what you'd want to look here.  Yes, it was interesting for it. I mean Ended up going to that eight eight two figure that we wanted Uh dropping down just didn't hit this, uh, which is kind of sadness uh Kind of upset it doesn't I mean it's surely sort of basically Overhanged sort of this bounce here. I just collected sort of traders under this area Just taking those stops here and here but Yeah, it would be nice to sort of see those I guess, uh, but instead we got greeted with just a nice little reversal And slam into this current area here So we're just collecting these longs here, which should be interesting to see if we sort of drop further down Uh off of this just hold off this area. Just treat this as sort of heavier resistance Look at it before I would see that of all you constraint is that area as well as sort of here They're just sort of capping it off looks like a nice little double top Uh That's something maybe you'd want to consider It sort of dropped down and finally sort of hit below here As it just didn't hit these two points of liquidity. So I think we're just building it up for reasons so Something that you maybe want to consider This is going to be coin Oh Sorry about my cool So there you two sort of resistance level that we talked about coming in here pushing down slammed here We already know that this nice print outside Build up volume here Just create a little choo choo train after it goes Slams into sort of resistance. So We're collecting long. We already know we're really heavy on the long here. So it's really reason. It's just resistance at this point Makes sense. There's that four-hour zone here I mean and four hours on here it just shows In sort of combination with sort of these uh these areas here We're sort of at that resistance if we drop below There's your sort of shallow catch that we talked about Then if we sort of hold that we can look to go higher if we don't it's just sort of Uh going further down. I think that's what potentially look for I really speed quite a few days with inside this sort of rage automatically If you look at it From here to sort of here There we go I mean we've been here for a while. I mean we can sort of compress this just down to sort of where the bodies are Just hit where the volume is rather here to essentially here It's been sort of very tight where Closers have been just very sort of similar and very sort Concentrated within these sort of areas and just very very small amount of variation coming in Just shows that Just shows that it sort of holds this area before anything And just collecting both sides before an ultimate break Uh the decision But considering the last move is heavy short we're very weak on these longs here, but we still have longs So we'll see we're capping off of this we're collecting volume just under this It could be just nice little failure pattern that we get Potentially go lower But again, we're just potentially looking for uh That to take that wall up here just as you can see Long pushing down coming down into this It's too cold to be a Coming down this sort of pushing lower See if it goes up high hits in push down ends up sort of completing sort of today And and sort of the entirety of that week Uh Into that push down But in terms of standing wise, yeah, maybe if we get like a nice double bottom You could essentially long here Or even At this point here comes in another one of these book map It's not about uh, I mean It's not about invalidating your book map. It's just trying to and I mean, yeah, if you read it like that you can invalidate it That's just understanding that You know where liquidity is You know that You know essentially where you're going, you know, if you like what you're seeing look if you see sort of these heavier Longs here and these pops here. That's easy to say. Yeah, I like what I'm seeing here. It's just taking out these tops here Let me let me continue that position But there you go It's in long pushes down This is into shorts should reverse slowly off of this collect Collect more shorts on this side if it doesn't I'm not collect more shorts collect collect Collect what longs around here sort of try to shift this area here down further It does it sort of goes down further for the rest of the day In all that just from understanding where these walls have been set up Uh, but I mean you don't have to read a like that. You can just use that sort of a last sort of uh point where Again, if I'm if I'm say Just trading these areas here If I was trading this area here and I saw that break higher and I shorted this preemptively or shorted this Understanding that the other the potential of this going down Look nice. Look nice. Uh, but instead it ends up just retesting And then pushing off so it would have been a terrible sort of uh thing to hold on to for at least I was the holder had to hold on to it for two hours again that goes against What we preach anyway, so Terms of holding things for too long. So again, you'll have already been out. But if you were not out already You could just have had a look at this area here and just say, okay, cool Do I like what I'm seeing in terms of being this short? Oh, no Why not? Uh, look that there's your shorts coming in. There's your shorts coming in each time they just Very heavy on these shorts on the low and finally it hits into a bid here Hits into a previous large collects a very sort of Heavy offset of shorts whether there was a previous area of pre-existing shorts And and again market orders want to validate this. It's just it just shows that okay, you understand Yeah, they're trying to get what they want here Instead if you had that market order just go like, oh, yeah But you'd have already been in the right trade because you saw those, uh, you saw that long tail Just about getting confirmation of a potential biases maybe Because sometimes you don't have that confirmation come out Again, it's just like looking at footprints, but a bit better Okay, I'll probably keep this on like a very extremely short side because I'm too cold to be talking I got a fever Is it yes? I mean continued down Yeah, again, nothing out the ordinary nothing, uh, too unexpected Finally hits into sort of this too It's into the slower It's into the slower Uh comes back down Consolidates with bitcoin, but Now we potentially may look at this as Is this will this reverse will this reverse bitcoin sort of trend? Uh, and that's what So yeah, if look out again could be sort of similar where we're collecting these shorts We're sort of failing down and they're already sort of putting pressure on the other side If we sort of come into here, we could potentially bounce higher That's something that you want to be sort of, uh, mindful of I mean two minutes till we got those, uh, got the first speaker of the day coming in These walls here look probably tasty. That's something that you want to hit up into as a possibility Because again, it could end up just Being a collection of short that collection of shorts that we got here We don't break lower. We break higher Into this before reversing and reversing for the day at that sort of 11-ish time But we get that second speaker coming in for the day Again, no numbers to pay attention to today just time just timings Not that we pay attention to numbers anyway I mean, it's slowly starting to do what needs to do See how far it take It's really so exploring. We just go over sort of, uh, mid Timing wise Sort of use the chart potentially Again, if es doesn't really hold here, it probably isn't interesting holding Holding sort of this range. You'll probably take out the lows here We'll see how far it goes after it takes out the lows see if it goes down into these areas here But generally where we're sort of standing as long as this area starts collecting long Short rather we're sort of looking happy in terms of taking these Taking these highs at the very least I mean theorem So I mean looks a bit better than bitcoin, but I mean not really Better just marginally if you sort of look at Sort of where the resistance at you can see that explosive Large sort of shelf for it to sort of hold itself onto And pills away into sort of this resistance So that's something that you want to sort of look at maybe drop down a lot further It's into 15 15 25 25 pills higher But that's yet to be seen but your first level of support after sort of This area here is all the way down there. So that's something that you want to sort of look at And be mindful of Over here before I see that area here collecting longs. I mean shorts rather hits into here I mean, you've got that area there where it's just reverse off of this Holding into the shorts. See if that push down We can get a big dump with a fast recovery puff up Hmm And if we're gonna get a dump, we're just gonna like retrace this sort of flag that everyone's sort of trying to long off of So I mean, I think that was uh sort of goal was Cheat Wednesday is I mean just break as fast as you can collect as many shorts just recover off of this and peel away But Generally, I think people are anti to short it. So We'll probably might get a fast recovery if anything We'll see if it ends up becoming a nice little double bottom Or where we take the actual low here because we've got two sets of lows now This low here this low here I've got this bar to sort of come back into this area here around to that 2k even And in the midst of creating a nice little Nice little triple top So we'll see if they push up high first if they push up high first again looking at it There's a triple top to then push down Uh I mean same thing it's doing It's heavy on these shorts collecting these longs. It's just shows some weaknesses if it stays below here. It'll sort of fell And continue down a bit for at least a bit For considering upwards That's something that you want to keep your eyes open for Again, I can't think straight. It's too cold I'll have a look at gold That's courtesy and bounce off of this but again, no surprise continue higher Trapping above this area here. There you go.  Oh, yeah. Yes, they ish There's your nice little trap here We'll see if that trap leads into sort of downwards movement and we can finally break low here So essentially look out for that today. We're just hanging around here just collecting orders It would be sort of So high time we sort of drop that I look at Solana. I guess and stats It Came back a bit It's just coming back down slowly but surely to these markers that we sort of put out for it so Nothing sort of too interesting other than that Just pushing down a bit more aggressive Then what bitcoin and ethereum has been doing but again Sort of there's your is your range. There's where we started trapping orders pulling away and there was your sort of Last trap on this side clear out the liquidity come below Then push further down Now we're sort of at this at this area where It sort of We should be looking potentially for a further drop But I probably I think most people would be doing that Again looks very short of both. I think a lot of people would expect price to sort of come down here Uh into this with the sort of lag area here But if we're looking to come down here first, we sort of have to look I think to take out these liquidity points here So maybe look for something like this if you're looking to short it Nice sort of area here other than that I don't think you want to short this a bit further down Do you want to see those longs into the market here this sort of rate here to then sort of drive Sort of stops to be placed here To then drop that price further down into these areas there Have a look at them since that's coming came back There's a lot of walkings, uh, but So let's filter that out. It was time There you go Uh, yeah, again bitcoin pushed up this pushed up again But when it pushed up again, I said it was like being forced to be uh Also being pushed up and that it was Is a double top and finally broke that and broke down all the way to that 11 figure that we were looking for Uh Then slow climb up Just capping itself here We'll see if it ends up falling And where it ends up falling at But generally if it sort of retests itself here, I mean this just looks like a steady long area Where we can easily fell and go down lower So considering where it's protecting these stops here Maybe nice, uh, and if we end up doing if you don't if we don't end up taking those stops We'll probably look for this to be a sort of a failure pattern To go down a bit lower first step is probably bringing it down back to the level 11 11.5 We'll see if it drops down further If it does drop down further, you're probably looking for The smaller time frames to find an area Again, just looks about these lows here Just around sort of 11 and 10.9 ish That's sort of if it ends up failing this area here Which could be sort of very easy sort of say, yeah Have like a blanket statement say, yeah, okay cool. It looks looks easy There's your points. There's your points could easily push down, especially if bitcoin does end up going down for the day Uh off of the back end of the current move In not much happening But it's still sort of the same thing got these long it's got these bids now present on the other side We'll see how far this Uh This can go on for Because you can just do 60 taggy forever until they hit a support The support areas are here and here. So we sort of need to look out for them As a potential area of bouncing Let me sort of push higher But I mean other than that nothing really interesting happening I mean I can cut this early Uh, I mean you guys happy sort of with what What I've said so far you guys sort of any questions basically any sort of things you want to leave uh Ask before we leave off for today Oh, say thousand oh then I mean looks like a pretty simple day just watch for the breakout sort of uh, I mean we should be currently so So we sort of wait wait for that 10 o'clock We'll see if they end up switching it and hit up into sort of uh, one o'clock and what ends up happening at one o'clock That could be interesting. I mean existing home sales and what I mean just doesn't matter Realistically I mean it's at 10 o'clock. We already know 10 o'clock matters. So these are non-existent So people pay attention to these numbers do something else. I mean Just stupidness Just 10 o'clock is important today and also one o'clock. So so I'm looking for midday with sort of midday plus an hour Uh potential point to maybe look for reversals at those times If we don't get it earlier Or whatnot just something to be mindful of for for today whilst you're trading But I don't really have any more advice, uh should be sort of a decent trade again Looks looks pretty easy sort of take up high just depends On these shorts being collected here And holding this level Hit up into these levels here Uh alternatively if we sort of break low and just don't hold this area here We're looking for further down and you're looking to collect a lot further Other than that, that's pretty much all I have for today Uh because I need to warm myself up.  Uh make sure you trade today safe other than that. I will see you guys Monday Have a lovely day folks