Good. Good afternoon, everyone. Thank you for your interest in this topic. Can I use the English? Is everyone okay? Okay. This is an internationalization session about BoboMofo. BoboMofo is also also called Zhu Yin Fu Hao in Chinese. It is a very local issue for Chinese. BoboMofo is a phonetic system for education to teach how to spell the Chinese characters, the Han characters. In China and Hong Kong they used the PIN the PIN system to spell the Chinese. This one is the Han character. PIN coded L-I-A-O-Liao. In BoboMofo system, it is L-E-L-Liao. It is a totally different system with PIN in and only used in Taiwan. In the print age, the Ministry of Education published a strict layout rule about the character proportions and in-line proportions for education materials in printing era. If you want to see the reference check the QR code or the bit.ly 2-H-T-V-S-S capital E as in English translation the booklet for the material. But when we go to the digital era, how to represent the layout on the information systems and everything at the start they tried to make the BoboMofo with the Han characters as a grief in the font but there is so many problems. The Han characters have different meanings and also have different pronunciations. As this one we can it can be pronounced as Liao or Le the maximum pronunciation of the Han characters have six so they have to make six sets of the font as a bundle and if you want to show the different BoboMofo you have to switch the font to write one but the trouble is that one the font itself do not contain the BoboMofo information so it lack of accessibility and in the education situations sometimes we want to write the wrong characters as a taste in elementary school the teachers will use the BoboMofo font as a taste print and they have a face to the wrong the wrong spelling one they copy that but it cannot represent on web or the digital populations so I started to study how can we make the BoboMofo layouts on web or on the information system and web carried most of the content and the digital publications just like the EPAP use the same technology but when I guess started this issue in 2013 I just found in WCC specifications only one progress to describe the BoboMofo it's under the Japanese ruby usage ruby in Japanese they also they also use that to use that to mark up how to spell the hand characters in Japanese kana because the size is small but it's a gene that's ruby so they coded the ruby text as a notation for pronunciations but the specification is published in 1999 maybe in that time somebody from Taiwan or from Japan they participated in WCC activities to provide the needs and they logged on the specifications and after the 14 years there's nothing nothing in the progress so it's just to put it as a way and we still cannot do anything to represent the BoboMofo web and information system okay five years ago I attended the WCC workshop for these publications and the internationalization we found some issues need to be resolved one for BoboMofo the ruby ruby markup itself it's not as a formal recommendation specification so nobody knows how to mark up BoboMofo in the ruby markup and the second lay out rules in CSS to format BoboMofo lay out in line as the law published by the Ministry of Education and the third problem is the most important in the Unicode 1.0 they just put everything every meaning in a single codepoint in BoboMofo we have five kinds of the tone mark a light tone and the first tone do not need the tone mark and the second tone the second tone, third tone and the fourth tone but you can see it's the accent and modified character for Latin it simply do not match the usage in the BoboMofo tone mark so that's the last problem we should to solve but fortunately when I started to participate the WCC activities it's on the HTML5 rush that in 2013 WCC wanted to finalize the HTML5 standards as the recommendations and there's a lot of things need to be done just like Ruby so I met a friend called Rubin Barjones at that time he published the WCC HTML Ruby markup extensions where you can find a formal way to mark up the BoboMofo and Ruby markup you just used Ruby to mark up the hand character and the BoboMofo BoboMofo characters and if there is a light tone put the light tone before the BoboMofo character and the second, third, fourth tone just after the BoboMofo character so we can confirm how to mark up BoboMofo and in that time in Japan they want to push the CSS and HTML5 to be implemented by the browsers and we belay our engines because they want to push the EPUB 3 as their ebook standards and they want the industry to get the technical issues down and so they they can they can publish more ebooks in the US standards so some people, Erica we also called her Fantasize and the issue coach who both of them write the writing mode for the vertical writings in CSS they also write the CSS Ruby layout module level one and we confirm how to put the BoboMofo layout in the right side in the right side of hand characters so after that the app was the first to implement the CSS value so we almost done our current BoboMofo on browsers you can see it's it's almost okay but if we say it close you can find that the tone mark is not put aside of the BoboMofo characters and how can we arrange the tone marks position to the right place and fix the grief share with them share with the Latin so first in the meeting of the CSS working group some implement the last guys told me it's hard to imply the tone mark adjustment with the layout engine why do you not try the font features but the open type features I don't know anything about that it's the open type standard is made by Adobe and Microsoft and only a few of the documents you can find on the internet so I don't know how to get started and even we can find the expert want to make some take a try we don't know the browser whether we use the feature or not so in the in the loop don't know how to get started finally I find font engineers in Taiwan willing to help me to make a sample font for a try so we make a sample font for a try but it doesn't work on all of the browsers include Firefox, Google Chrome Safari for sure of course the internet explorer and age doesn't support that but from time one but now in the Bay Area Kevin Shea he told me that he can try to report back to the open type engine called half bus that Firefox used for the open type features and as I accepted and fixed just after half of the years everything works so the open the test fonts can used on the Firefox, Google Chrome and the labor office so we have another problem it takes a file semantically good for standardization or not so we're back to back to surface of the state how can we find the open type expert to review our our sample font we find Dr. Canland in Adobe a few of the open type expert gave us some advice to publish the second sample font and we tried on Firefox and Chrome it's nearly done in horizontal writings you can put the bubble morpho above the hand characters and use the open type features ruby to replace the grief that it fit the Ministry of Education rule for bubble morpho and in vertical writing it can just put the tone mark aside the bubble morpho characters and it's very well the dialect for the Mina and Haka the Chinese dialect they have their own their own the bubble morpho characters for spelling we publish the taste case on github if you're interested with that you can check it on github but facing the last state what's next we should do because it's mixed with the W3's web standards and the font features we do not know how to publish the best practice as the standards should we try to talk to W3C the Internationalization Working Group publish that as a note or through adobe text technical note it's private but you know adobe publisher they have a lot of software to deal with the layout and the text so they have an inference for for the various usage and how to spread the best practice in Taiwan through the Ministry of Education Taiwan they care about the rule but they do not care how to use that on the information system and the web and somebody told me the Bureau of Standards they made interesting to publish a side note of the CNS 11643 as a Chinese standard intercharge code as an intercharge code for Chinese it's related to the unique code but only the hand character using Taiwan oh but or maybe someone want to try to make some service or make a side use the technology use the font and markup to publish for publishing materials for education and another problem is in the open source in the open source world that Firefox, Google Chrome and the liberal office they share the same open type engine so everything is done but the Apple WebKit at Microsoft's age they still have a lot of bug to fix and their proprietary we cannot do anything just report the bug fortunately when I participated W3C activities I met some expert in Apple in the WebKit team they know a lot of things about the open type and accepted the bug and they may fix them but the Microsoft I don't know we filed the bug and even nobody to watch that okay I want to share some my experience about the challenge and the problem when I in the in the standards activities one I qualify when I first time I attend the W3C workshop everything's very everyone appreciates because there is nobody know the Chinese text and lay out when the CSS one group want to deal something with the CJK they have a lot of bunch of the Japanese expert but nobody know Chinese but when I back to Taiwan when I talk to government talk to the education area they just ask are you linguist do you have the experience to teach Mandarin or do you have some degrees in the information information science computer computer engineering all of the answers no and somebody even ask can you speak English as the native speaker no okay at that time so finally I find an identity when W3C accepted my proposal to let me as an invited expert so I have an identity to do the things I'm thinking about that when I back to Taiwan the government and authority constantly ask me for my qualifications I once my friend called Lawrence Lee he have podcast called IT Gong Lun in China he know what I I have so invited me to record one topic about doing the digital population standardization in the activism as an activism way so I just find it's great title to explain what I am doing because they have in Taiwan somebody have have provided the requirement for now it's almost 20 years ago but it's just put in layer for 15 years and nobody do anything for that I think it's issue should be resolved so if there is nobody qualified to do that I can just take a try what I want to say is that I feel very comfortable in the open source activities and WCC WCC meetings but when I back to to the real world back to Taiwan I think there is nobody support me to do things to do this thing and the second one is where the reference the only thing published is about the Bopo Morpho it's a booklet called the boydream for household in English it's a phonetic symbol of Mandarin Chinese published by the Ministry of Education in year 2000 last year they asked me to translate that into English version and publishes the e-book so that's the only reference for me to do the things sometimes in Japan in Japan they want to keep they want to keep their Japanese layout rules so in 20 years ago they published their own Japanese industry standards for writing down every rules about the Japanese layout and it's a great reference for WCC to write the requirement for Japanese text and layout and they write the gap document and what cannot be done cannot be represented on web and the CSS working group tried to deal with that but in Chinese we do not have things like that so when we made every Chinese issues we have asked the expert here in the layer so I have did another thing to read a lot of the rule books for publishing in Taiwan and China and write the requirement for the Chinese text and layouts if there is no reference you can try to write one by yourself and let everyone to review and give a comment to fix that the third problem is the political issues in Taiwan recently somebody somebody says we should abandon the Boko Mopo system and try to use the pin-in system to instead but it's not happened and it's somebody's political preference but in Taiwan in Taiwan the government they're overwhelmed by the people's voice so if some congressman or somebody they publish those opinions online they will hold for the funding for the Boko Mopo project that's exactly what I'm doing so it's quite frustrated and related to the issue of does it work? can you repeat are you saying that attempting to use pin-in pushback are you saying attempts? the Boko Mopo system it's already for 100 years originally in China then with the KMT to Taiwan and they use it in Taiwan to teach how to spell in the hand characters and recently you know some voice to call the Taiwan independent and they want to abandon all the system bring by the KMT they want to use the pin-in system to restate because the pin-in system is better than the Boko Mopo system for the Taiwanese Taiwanese we can as rough the Minnan dialect Minnan dialect and Hakka so they just some congressman and people they supported Taiwan independently abandon the Boko Mopo system and use the pin-in system so you're saying dialects in Taiwan that are better served by Boko Mopo the Minnan dialect we can back to the sign positive negative which who I understand what Boko Mopo is I understand a little bit about the politics what I don't understand is if you put pin-in ruby in instead of Boko Mopo ruby would someone be unhappy hmm I do not explain that it's quite small you can check it out only three characters usually right because 20 years ago the Ministry of Education they published a sign system the Boko Mopo for the dialect they have different different voice, consonant and tone marks and we dealed we dealed that in the sample font and people used the Boko Mopo for dialect and pin-in parallelly for two different different language uses same language you can spell that by Boko Mopo for dialect and also by pin-in I understand so if you put pin-in instead of Boko Mopo in the ruby would that be a problem it seems that I wonder if you could increase the size of your user community if there would be mainland Chinese people who would like to have the pin-in ruby next my friend my friend called Eric Liu he have he have a side called Hyper is Beautiful in Chinese about the typography and the font he published an article called the war eye pin-in I love pin-in last year he said that in China there is no rule books for pin-in layout and a lot of problems for pin-in you can see that in a simplified Chinese font as loading parts always do not do well for combine the alphabet the characters with the with the tone mark so you can see and he want to deal with font but the China government do not have the rule books and their national standards for deal with things like this so if if in Taiwan we abandon the Boko Mopo system and use the pin-in we still have a lot of problems we still need a reference published by the Taiwan government or anywhere as a reference and to do the best best practice in font we still do we still need to do things in that but for now I think the Boko Mopo still in every elementary school and the Kings Gardens the children they still learn how to spell hand character with Boko Mopo so I think Boko Mopo still should be for Boko Mopo layer still should be done for web and information system labor office, the board process everything so but for me as a disaster because it's related to the next issue in sufficient font I do not have the main issue is the and GitHub issues it's good, a layer good and you can write the problem and this curse waste expert but in my experience a lot of a lot of issues arise layer just cannot be resolved if you do not met the key percent and know who deal that the face-to-face meeting is still important to make connections let you know who where, doing what and he can help you to like things, make it real and go faster so in WCC they have yearly the technical and preliminary advisors conference called the T-PAC every year they just have a routine one year, because WCC they have four houses university one is in Europe and another is MIT and K.O. University in Japan and recently they have a Beihang in Beijing so just a year one year in Europe and another year maybe in the United States and another year in Japan is four years ago they have their conference in China but recently they do not want to have the conference in China because conference to talk about the Weber Center but they have banned every website in the conference hall it doesn't make sense so they do not want to hold the conference in China but the problem is that in Taiwan I have yearly travel to the United States and Europe it's a lot of money so I do not have for now I have want to solve the Chinese issues with WCC for five years I paid by myself to do the same thing I have tried to find the fund for that if I find the government it will back to the issue one and three the government will ask me are you qualified to do the that no okay and three the political issues you want to solve the problem for layout and maybe soon we will abandon the system so I am not sure we can fund you or not so forget that forget the government I want to try the crowdfunding and in three years ago I have a writing article for sponsors for my traveling expense finally I got I got 100,000 Taiwan dollars it equals to three three thousand US dollars it's only a few and it cannot call the crowd because just 20 people and three people just funding me 80% so finally I found if you want to do do things like this in the activist way to do the standardizations you have to find only who care about the issue find some partners they will help you for your for your activity so Bobo.4 is really a very local issues because the system only used in Taiwan and it have been bring into the WCC the standard standard organizations but just put in there for 15 years there's a lot of Chinese and it takes the issue have to be resolved but not done yet fortunately in WCC it's very peaceful then you know in a lot of international organizations China always have a comment for us but not happen in WCC and do you know when Taiwan Taiwan quite the United Nations we cannot join the ISO and IEC meetings we do not have we are not nation body so we cannot participate every meeting held by ISO and IEC only one meetings that WG2 let the cyber committee lay in charge of the Unicode and in Unicode the most part of the Unicode the code points are hand character so we can participate in the meeting and recently when we deal with the BoboMofo issues we just send a proposal to the WG2 and accept so two years later we can fix the simple relief of the BoboMofo and its tone mark in Unicode so it's really really really no soon it will be done so it's my it's my experience it's a process in the five years how to deal the BoboMofo layout issues on web and other information systems and my experience to participate participate the standard standardization process in the activist way I think it may related to some people in the open source open software circle so the funding is still a problem I think so and the next Jason also said that he is open software supporters and he always talk about the localization issues ten years ago a lot of people were working for translating and localization for labor office and and a lot of the project but recently recently only a few one or two people care about that we do not we do not have a lot of people to to contribute for the translations and the localization I in my experience I think we should reward because if as a student side project or your personal personal idea to do things it will not take long if you do not have sufficient the economical support so it's also my final report for the Bobo Mobile and the Chinese and maybe my activities for the centralization because it's quite hard to pay everything by yourself I will attend workshop in Tokyo about the digital publications in magazines and the manga it will be the workshop I attend by the way do you know WCC supported me a lot not by not by funding they invited me as the business agent to recruit members in Taiwan five years ago in Taiwan we have three members the academic and the two organizations founded by the government they joined WCC for their own project because in that time the HTFI is in a rush people want to want to make the web apps web apps so they joined WCC but three years ago they all quit because the government found them for the membership fee so WCC asked me we do not have any members in Taiwan and you participate every meeting we are quite familiar can you do things like that we have a good commission if you will successful recruit a member in Taiwan I have worked for half of a year I think less the streets and what make me want to leave this circle every organization said that open standards if they make a deal and the standard is mature supported by the browsers and we will consider to use in our information system but if you want to let participate in the activity I think it cost sorry about that I don't want to let my sessions complain everything but in the 5 years every every speech I am always complaining sorry about is there any problem in a bit different field but we are still facing the same problem now we are trying to promote the open document format in the government and yes they are starting to adopt that but when we talk about for example contribute back to the ODF ODF committee or ODF news bag research and speaking of money they will not they will not let say they just tell us that it's impossible for them to pay anything to a you want to say that non-profit non-government non-profit and I I tried to make them for example right now one thing successful that the government invest a team of local developers to improve the software but when I try to further for example make them support us to attend the conference or attend the ODF spec improvement there was a rejection so I can understand how you feel about we can just say that we still need to work a lot to me and just like in my previous session I said that we have the chance that we can just transform upside down from the power but for all these sessions I know you have been working for a long time but current even harder because we have political issues so I can understand actually I'm expected that the ordinary town in the sessions in the morning should give some more good answers for the questions because she is a unicoder and contributed a lot for the what language not Python Pearl yeah Pearl so and she have the open government project to deal the dictionary published by the Ministry of Education so I think when he go to the get into the government and as a minister could help the open source project and the open standard activity but no a political opportunity to push this project forward the whole world wishes it could learn Chinese easier and the Han characters are a major barrier for anyone from a Latin country I admire the ruby script the way you have the tiny little characters next to the larger Han character and the idea that you can make that easily fit in a type type set seems very useful and I know locally there is a big need for the but in mainland and other countries there might be an interest in the same kind of techniques used with Roman letters so mainland maybe they would like to have the little Roman letters in that kind of ruby position and I wonder if there is an overlap there where the resources might be available because they also would like to see type set that uses this ruby position that's really a problem because if you see for now the pin in it can be not compatible with the ruby specifications but in pin-in the one-hand character may be pronounced as 5 or 6 Latin characters and it's just overflowed and in China where they do things like that they really add an accent mark on the pin-in so you can spell that but you do not know the tonation I have a friend in Germany he learned Chinese by Bobo Morpho system and he told me that the Bobo Morpho system from the study is quite difficult because you do not know the Bobo Morpho character but you know how to pronounce the Bobo Morpho only 36, the small number and the ton mark only 4 and they do not have a complex and in China people do not add that to the ton mark so in I think the Bobo Morpho is a nice system but only in China and outside of Taiwan you know the the pin-in one character's education so that's the problem and I have asked my friend he is also the editor of the requirement for the Chinese take and layout I ask him why do you not try to deal with the pin-in issues make people in China rise to awareness to standardizations the government public he just told me that no because in China if you are not any government or office in the education system you cannot do anything so I think I am quite tough in the WCCA activities but fortunately and so good I can still I can still do things and get things done that's so great okay any questions let's have a coffee break thank you everyone