Good evening friends. And as we had promised on an earlier occasion that we will be taking three sessions on the Indian Succession Act. Two parts were already there. Hello, Mr. Justice. And the third aspect in respect of probate and letters of administration. This is an issue which normally we all find, and especially letter of administration of late we find that the state offices etc. Do call upon that at least bring the letter of administration and a common man does ask the lawyer known to him. Maybe not even as a professional advice as a friend sometimes they do ask what is the way forward for to how to go about it in the letters of administration. Therefore, in the part three of the Indian Succession Act on the session being taken by all of them. We will be covering these aspects and even though what we were covering the legal aspects, but we would also be covering as we had requested and it was also the brainchild of this is not that how to go about it would be an aspect to be covered in this topic. And as usual, we will be taking questions at the end of the session. And as usual, again, we say that keep on wearing the mask, get yourself vaccinated and maintaining maintain social distancing. This was also actually an idea conceived by just a lot of when we were talking about the different sessions. He said that you should also post it on the invite so that if any one even can be sensitize on each invite. That helps us to build the nation strong. Without taking much time, I would request sir to take on things. Thank you, because today's session before I begin today's session, I'd like to actually pay my respects to all judges, advocates, people of court staff, other friends and relatives who passed away in this horrible pandemic. And as we wait actually with bated breath for the third act in this tragedy that has struck this the world to unfold. Let's hope it's better than what's happened till today. So with these few words I mark my respect for all those who passed away and hope all those who've been through this trauma emerge stronger and we don't lose any more friends, relatives, lawyers, judges but I think everybody's been touched by it in some way or the other. And yes, we will always blame somebody or the other but then to an extent we ourselves are also responsible. So let's all get up and take responsibility and not allow this third act to play out its course. So now coming to the topic as Vikas had said I had promised that we'll make it into a three part this thing on the Indian Succession Act but somehow the first two were done but the third somehow got left out for reasons of pandemic trying to help out to do things for people etc. So this third in the series of the webinar other two are available on YouTube if anybody's interested. What my attempt is to move away from the academic actually and to put even before a lay person, the Indian Succession Act in its simplest form. So that you have a faint idea you will never have a complete idea because once you open one section which I'll explain to you will find a third one which will contradict it or will confuse you. So to make it as simple as possible I'll just I've done succession certificate I've done proof of will I've done will execution of will all those things. So we've come to probate now probate is a term all of you here probate and letters administration and lots of you hear it on a daily basis but it's something more or less apart from the people in the legal profession and many in the legal profession also. It's some sort of a mystical term that what is this probate and why how when what where all those things have to be there. So it's actually in the Indian Succession Act chapter nine of the Indian Succession Act 1925 and sections 217 to 369. But in view of the limits of this webinar I will not be taking anybody through these sections but I'll take you a briefly through there are two types of succession I think you're all aware of that one is testamentary succession, which is if there's a will. And the second is if there's no no will, in which case either session will go on the basis of the personal law of the parties, whether depending on we are Muslim or Hindu Christian and in the Christian community you have different denominations which have different types of succession. So, these you have to be very conscious of these two parts and then I'll take you to what is the difference what is probate and what is letters of administration. You all heard of three figures in this thing one is called the testator is the person who executes the will during his lifetime. The end is beneficiary in whose favor it goes and then is the executor or the executor as we many of us like to pronounce it. Now, the latter is the person who has the right to seek a probate. If there is a name the executive of the will, he has the right to seek a probate. What is a probate, probate is nothing more than a certificate granted by the court that this will is legal and valid. Lee executed, I purposely left out that word, the will is legally and validly executed. It is not a declaration that the property which is part of the will was legally and validly owned by him. It's not a declaration that this property was his personal property or was his HUF or ancestral or co-pastory. All that it will declare by way of a certificate which the court will grant is that the will has been validly executed. And if you're from the legal profession, you will know that these sections under which it is executed under the 68 of the succession act and proved under 63 of the evidence act that I've already been through. So I would not like to spend any more time on that. Now, how do you file a probate? And the first question that always arises and people ask at many forums is, is it compulsory to have a registered will before you file a petition for a probate? The answer is no. A will does not require registration and therefore you can seek and in case you're able to prove, you will be granted a probate even if the will is unregistered. We only get the will registered as a matter of caution to add a little strength to the will. So it's not that it's necessary that it is registered. Now, coming to the operation of the areas in which we have to obtain a probate, it is not compulsory to obtain a probate in about 80% of the country. The only places where it is compulsory is if the executor of the will, let me call him the testator a proper word, resides within the presidency of Bengal as it originally stood, which we now call the Calcutta High Court jurisdiction. The Madras High Court, which was originally Georgetown, if you people will remember, fought Georgetown and third, the jurisdiction of Bombay. So if a person resides there and makes a will, then necessarily he has to seek a probate. If the property is situated within any of these three jurisdictions, then also he has to obtain a probate. In the rest of the country, it is optional. So the question arises then why should I go and seek a probate if it's just optional? And I'm living in Delhi, I'm living in Chandigarh, I'm living in Jaipur, I'm living in Kanpur, I'm living in a town and so why should I seek a probate? Well, the answer is that it's a simple, easier and at times even a cheaper method of obtaining a validity of will than instead of going to file a civil suit to seek a declaration. So most people in jurisdictions where probate is not compulsory would also file a probate. And my advice to people is that please file a probate, don't go to file a suit. In a suit, you may also end up paying Advilorum court fees, whereas in a probate you pay a much lesser fee. So this is another reason for people to file a probate and not file a suit, a suit for declaration. Then the court can also turn around and say that if there's no dispute in the will, what do I adjudicate? So you can throw your suit out also. There has to be some dispute on a will. Whereas in a probate, there need not be a dispute. I'll just take you to what is required in a probate. There need not be a dispute.  That's all, period. That's about nothing more, nothing less.  The moment you go to civil court, you'll have to seek a declaration of his title also. And then court fees will come in, stamp duty will come in. So I think my little advice to everybody is that and to lawyers here and to people who are not from the profession, seek a probate. It's a cheaper alternative. The only thing is we in courts and lawyers also get accused that it's a never ending process. Yes, this is a dark night of litigation, which I call it a dark night of litigation does not end. But a clever litigant and a good lawyer is always hands on. And if the litigant associates himself with the lawyer, it's not very difficult to get your case decided quickly. Most of the time what we notice is that lawyer leaves the client, leaves the brief with the lawyer and says, okay, call me when you need me. So lawyer has lots of other work to do. So it's a two way street. Both have to work together. So it's a quick process provided you are totally hands on in this. So now coming to, I've already answered why finality. I think there are lots of organizations like even sometimes when you have to seek transfer of shares, they might ask you for a probate. You might sometimes even some bank manager sitting may say, okay, please go and obtain a probate. You may have a flat. Your person may have a flat, which is in a society they might want you to seek a probate of the will. And then of course, there might be some dispute between you both or three or four of the beneficiaries. One place if the dispute is only with respect to the will and not with respect to title, then the best place to go to is to seek a probate. Why do I say another reason? When you go to a civil court, you will go to the lowest court. But when you go and file a probate, you will go straight to the district judge or to the high court. Under section 300, the jurisdiction of the district court and the high court is concurrent. You can go to either. So you in essence may cut out two or three steps of the litigation ladder. If you go straight to the high court, high court has jurisdiction. The district judge has jurisdiction. So it's either way. The only thing you've got to be a little careful is that please look at the high court rules and orders. Each high court in addition to what is written in this act has its own rules and orders. You're all aware of that. So please look at that before you file a petition. I'm sorry. If I'm addressing lawyers, I shouldn't be saying that that's the basic fundamental thing which I should not inform lawyers. But since there are many people who are not from the profession. So my idea is to explain to everybody, not just to lawyers. Now coming to this, who can obtain a probate now? If you come to the opening of the act, a probate, like I already said it to, can only be obtained by a Hindu, a Sikh, a Jain or a Buddhist. Muslims are not entitled to probate under this act. Christians have been excluded in 2005 or something. There's an amendment. They have a separate dispensation for them. So basically it's left only for these communities because Muslims have their personal law. Christians have their personal law. They are minorities which are rightly protected by the constitution. And they have different dispensations within their religions which have different methods of succession. The Christian world has innumerable churches and innumerable, similarly with the Muslims. So it's not the only thing that comes in succession act is. But if there is no will, the first condition is there has to be a will. Registered or unregistered. Now coming to our personal laws. Now suppose a person does not execute a will but he leaves behind properties. So what do you do then? Can you come under the Indian Session Act? Because I'm emphasizing again and again will, will, will, will. Yes you can. That's where letters of administration comes in. Letters of administration is a certificate again granted to you. Just to deal with the property of the person. It doesn't give you a right. You may be a beneficiary. But eventually it gives you a right to deal with the property, to save the property, to collect the property and then disperse it. It's, it's something just slightly less than a probate. In a probate, if you look at the act, everything comes to West in the executor or in the beneficiaries who then give it to the beneficiaries. So let the distinction is very palpable between the two. But at the same time, courts may sometimes instead of granting a probate, even where there is a will grant a letter of administration. They say there is nothing to be probated. The will is valid. So why are you seeking a declaration? So here I give you letters of administration to administer the property. It's not a question of there may be debts to be paid. There may be debts to be collected. That is where administration comes in. Probate will give you complete rights. The property will Western you. So that is the distinction. Now another frequently asked question is what is the limitation for filing a probate? Suppose a person dies in 1970 and you go and file a petition in 2020 on the basis of will. Normally, we would say it's time barred and throw it out. But no, there is no limitation provided in the limitation act for approaching the court of competent jurisdiction to grant a probate. But at the same time, if you all remember, we have the limitation act where there is a residual article 137, which says where no limitation is prescribed, it shall be three years. So the limitation to approach a court for grant of a letters of administration or grant of a certificate of probate. I request everybody to start using the word like this certificate of probate. We keep saying grant for the law does not say grant of probate. It says grant a certificate of probate.  Otherwise, it makes no difference. Actually, everybody understands what's the meaning of granting a probate and what's the meaning of letters of administration. Just a better way of putting a fact across. Now, once you have this limitation, so where will this period of three years commence? This is the most important thing for a lawyer. A litigant comes to you. He shows you a will and you say, oh my God, this was executed in 2005 and 2021. Now, how will I justify? Because original proceedings section five does not apply. I hope you remember that there's no condemnation of delay in an original proceedings, except if the act provides it. Now, this act does not provide that. So what will you do then? Then you look for ask him that when did the dispute arise as to the will? On which date did somebody ask you to obtain a probate? On which date did any of the other beneficiaries refuse to accept the will? On which date did an officer in the court declined to record a mutation or report in your favor? That is the date limitation will commence. You all know cause of action. Cause of action to obtain a probate and reserve is limitation is not the date of death or obviously can't be date of execution because a will only comes into effect on the death of a person. It's not the date of death is the date when the will is called into question by somebody else. So if nobody else you take out the will after say 15 years and then somebody says, sorry, I'm not relying on this. This is wrong. So then you go in for a probate limitation will start from that please search for a Supreme Court judgment of the year 2008. I'll refer to it later. Somehow it's missing from my record, but you it's that's the date this limitation is a very important part. Because people have a habit of not approaching the courts expeditiously or within time or within what they should normally be doing. And then even let me my own community also have as an habit of sometimes delaying matters. I have to be honest about my community also. So to all lawyers, a small bit of advice. Don't get disheartened if somebody comes to you. I'm not saying create the dispute within three years, but find the dispute within three years. That's a different way of saying the same thing, but a better way of saying it find when the dispute commenced. So you will be well within your right to obtain a probate. Otherwise the first question the court will put to you and you know it very well. There is section three in the limitation act, which obliges a court to reject a claim which is barred at the rejected at the outset. It's it's a question of jurisdiction limitation is a question of jurisdiction though it's a mixed question of fact and law. So you must when you're writing your petition for probate, you must if it's delayed if it's say three years beyond the demise or something. Normally lots of people come on time only. I'm just trying to be more dramatic in my putting it across that people don't come for 1010 years it's never like that. So please add that if you're beyond three years, then please add a sentence that this was called into question on such and such year at such and such place. Therefore, I am within limitation of 137. Otherwise the honorable judge will ask you a question and then you'll be explaining it. And then when the judge refuses to accept your then you'll go up to the high court and say I didn't do this and this was not done. So please be very careful on how you draft drafted. Now coming to the basic fundamentals of a will. The day the person dies. The way the person passes away. The will comes into operation. Your inheritance opens on that very day. It can it does not remain in abeyance whether it is under the Hindu succession act or whether it is under the Indian succession act. It comes into force immediately. The enforcement can take this later. Why I say this is because there'll be beneficiaries who will deal with the property. It's not that if there's no probate you can't deal with the property. You can accept the rents you can do it but once you are in court then you have to seek permission of the court. And those are acts also which can be rectified. There are provisions. I'm not for want of time I I don't want to convert it into a classroom lecture. But there are provisions where you have the right. If you are the executor or if you're the beneficiary also to deal with the properties. Now what do you do in fact I think time has come now. And in fact it's happening in many jurisdictions. I am the beneficiary of one such order where the executive authorities accepted the will because all beneficiaries filed affidavits. Acknowledging the signatures of the deceased acknowledging the will and they recorded the change of ownership in the name of the beneficiaries. So please try and insist on the executive authorities also that you have the jurisdiction to do it. It's a valid will either record an order that you do not accept the will then you'll go to court. But what's happening in most jurisdictions is that almost as a matter of routine. The officer where you have properties registered will tell you sorry I am not going to go into all this.  Then you'll say oh sorry I don't know you've given me the number of people who are beneficiaries. I'm not too sure how can I be sure. Now I'll put it in a newspaper no objections have come doesn't make any difference. Sorry please I'm not giving it I'm giving it to you please go to court that's where you have to come to profit. So if you encounter some sort of such a rules please come to court straight. And for people who are scared of coming to courts I mean I can assure you we are not that bad people whether we are lawyers or we are judges or anything. It's just that you have to be involved in your own litigation. You can't just leave your litigation and expect somebody to do everything for you. So that's the way it goes now. I've already told you that where is it to be filed. It has to be filed. Before the district judge. Where the deceased was residing and made his will. Or where the property is situated. And the same jurisdiction travels to the high court also. If he's situated if he lives within the jurisdiction of say the Kerala High Court. The property is also situated in Kerala no issue he can go to the district judge whoever is there. And he can even go to the high court depending on him. At times the high court may also send you back and say go to the district judge. I mean we've got better matters to do. Or we've got other things to do also and lots of times this happens. And sometimes they do they entertain it. And then you have this situation where the property is situated in two jurisdictions. Say one properties in Kerala the other is in Punjab. And maybe there may be a third jurisdiction also. And the person say resides in Delhi has property in Kerala. Has property in Chandigarh and has property in Madhya Pradesh. I'm excluding the three those presidency towns and presidency high courts. So in that situation you have the right to choose. And the court has the right to say that since major part is situated there please go there. But if the will has been executed say in the jurisdiction in Kerala then normally the court will allow it. Now why I tell you that it's better to go to the place where the major part of the property is situated is. Because then you'll have to carry the certificate from one jurisdiction to the other to seek transfer. The authorities in Kerala cannot transfer the title of the property in Madhya Pradesh. So it's better to have one jurisdiction and then request the court to transfer it to that if you know that precept how a precept goes in civil law. Otherwise you'll be you can't find three petitions on the same will one in Madhya Pradesh one in Kerala and say one in the third jurisdiction. So small advice everything included there. Now what are the contents of a of a petition for probate. This is something very important everybody needs to understand lawyers can read it from the section concern. The section is section 276 is the section which gives you the particulars of the probate. At the end of this thing there is a format of a probate also and section 279 is the petition for letters of administration. So both of them are prescribed. What do you exactly have to write. You have to when your letters of administration there's no will so you don't have to refer to a will. You have to write the time of the test status death. Of course you'll write the name of the test data. You'll write his lineage and you are annexing there with the original copy of the will that has to be arrested. Attested because it's probate is granted certificate of probate is granted to a will attached with that it is legal and valid and to nothing else. It's not a decree. It's not an order. It's a certificate. Please be very clear on that. It's not a judgment. It's not a decree. But what is granted to the certificates preceded by a judgment of a court. That's a separate matter. So that and then that it was duly executed. These are the witnesses. These are the assets the properties which are subject matter of the of the will. The application is for probate that the petitioner is the executor or the beneficiary. Like I told you an executor can also file it. There are situations where you appoint an executor and after you die the person says sorry I'm not ready to do it. So then he has to renounce his obligation. There's another provision in the act. He has he can renounce his obligation to get the will probated and then the beneficiary can go. But there are situations and there are judgments where the executor did not go. And the poor beneficiary was kept on running after him that please please go to court please go to court. In such situations the courts did allow the beneficiaries and you know there are many sort of beneficiary primary beneficiary the major beneficiary the minor beneficiary to come to court. Sometimes all of them came to court sometimes one came for the benefit of everything. So it's not as if in every case only the executor of the will will come. And there are many cases known to law where executors have been known to exploit things and have been known to switch better if you are try and associate the executor and join him also. Don't just leave it to him. These are just words of caution probably from my experience in life or experience as a judge as a lawyer. You must then also value the properties. Why do you need to value the properties? Because there is a particular probate fee which is less than the court fees and the stamp duty. Normally I don't know what state governments then keep on increasing in because it's a state subject. Then the identity of the witnesses is very very important of the will. And then if registered the exact name place of the registrar's office because there'll be a stamp also. So it'll be written there but you must write all this. And if you want to be more particular the place where the will was executed and the place where it was registered. Sometimes the place of execution is one and the place of place of registration is one. So please be very careful in giving all these particulars. And since we have lots of people who live in our Mufassil areas or even in our towns. So you also have a person called a scribe of a will. Nowadays we have lawyers who are professionals in executing and in drafting of wills. But in every district there is a scribe who is authorized to scribe documents by the district judge or by the district magistrate. He has he's granted authority. So the identity of the scribe will go a long way in helping you to prove your will. So after that has to be verified as per the CPC we have normal verification rules. And most important of all and please don't forget this. The application for probate must be certified by at least one witness of the will. Preferably get the certificate of both at the bottom of the will. Preferably see if because if suppose one is there and he's not available or he packs out you have the second there also. And then in your petition you suppose I have to I file the petition and I have other brothers and sisters also. So I must array all of them as respondents and depending upon your high court rules and orders the general public too. Because the will is not a declaration. This is a declaration in REM not in personum. It applies the legality is an announcement to the world at large that this gentleman or this lady who was passed away has made a valid will.  And therefore we grant a certificate and certify its legality and validity. Now coming back to a point where I started. The distinction is the will is legal and valid. The request may not be taken example. A person is a member of the property in my hands is ancestral. So my grandchild and grandchild will also be party will have a share holding by birth if we are all Hindus. Now what happens if I bequeath the entire property. Can they come and say that no you could only have sold one third or you could only have made a will for one third of your share. Yes they can but it will not come in the probate. Probe it will my will be held to be valid for that he will seek a declaration. This is a little dichotomy in the law. Unfortunately you got this law from the British when times were easy. So I am of the opinion that this probate jurisdiction should also have a jurisdiction within it to determine the title of the parties also maybe by a separate declaration. Because now in this situation I get a declaration the will is valid. My father has made a valid will and then my brother comes along one day and files a suit seeking a declaration that the father's bequest is not valid. The will is valid but he did not have a right to. So why can't we do it in one is just like I have another favorite topic which I speak everywhere that if you all the lawyers here would understand that we have something called the CPC. Where most of the CPC is taken up by one order called order 21 which is the largest order which is more or less like an act itself. And it's not even a rule or something. So once you've got your degree in your favor that's the time the fun and game starts. And that's the time you are given a rigmarole running around. So why can't we have a rule in the CPC also sorry I'm digressing from the topic a little. Why can't we have a rule where the person against whom a decrease pass asked to come to court within 30 days or 90 days and show satisfaction of the degree. We had this whole huge order 21 running into how much I did 123 rules just to execute a decree and it's a lawyer's paradise because there are so many it's a minefield. So if somebody has the ears of the government I don't you can please tell them that time to think of this getting rid of all this matter probate. Why can't you have declaration at the same time I don't understand why not why we divided these jurisdictions. So we should have a probate and this an idea I'm putting in all your minds if you people can take it forward at some fora somewhere. There'll be somebody who may know people in power somewhere they can start this. There's so many professors lecturers lawyers everybody we must start making the law more responsive to the needs of today's times. And not live in the CPCs and the pro this is 1925 succession act and procedurally it has not but an inch since 1925. I don't criticize the system but then nobody's given thought to it somebody has to give thought to all this. Now similarly coming to the declaration for a letters of administration. Same thing times and place of disease death. The family or other relatives of deceased and their respective residences. The right in which the petitioner claims the amount of assets which are likely to come to the petitioners and when the application is to the district judge. Then the disease and the time of death has a fixed place of a board that is also important like I was telling you if he's writing that within the jurisdiction of so and so etc. And then of course you have this this entire thing goes around the procedure but when you go to court. Every judge in a probate will ask you to get the petition published in the newspaper. And now in today's times probably you'll have to go online. I don't know most papers are going paperless and. It's very difficult. And that itself is quite expensive. Getting a publication in a newspaper is quite expensive. Particularly if you're asked to put it in a national newspaper it'll cost you nothing less than 50,000 rupees. So I think we need to divide some other method of putting it within the public domain. If we want to make litigation what we keep saying as judges and lawyers and even as politicians game. They will make justice cheap it'll come pure doorstep it was all this but sorry that's not the way it is. If a poor person comes I mean it's not.  So this another thing I'd like I mean this is something all of you can think of alternatives. I can't find an alternative but we have younger lawyers who see so many things every day. And they are finding solutions to everything so they can find a solution to all this. And now actually the TV show of India has. formed a committee, the AI committee to help in. Court work artificial intelligence, but I think this is something where even normal intelligence is just needed nothing more than that then coming to. Who can be a beneficiary, I think you're all aware of that. If it's my personal property. I. I can build it away to anybody. My will cannot be challenged on the ground that I have executed a will in favor of person XYZ was not related to me. So it's normal principles of will will apply you will have that same old fight going on there for that verification I've told you everything I've told you section 300 prescribes concurrent jurisdiction of high court and limitation I've also referred to it. That's about all basically I just got to wrap up now. And then I've got to subject myself to any questions which you any of you may have on probate. It's actually that simple, but getting this probate takes years and years. One small request to you which I forgot to make and this comes from my experience as a lawyer and a judge. When you'll file the original will in court. Please in make an application that it should be put in a sealed cover. And they put into the custody of the registrar of whoever is the senior most official in the district court. Why because if it's tagged along with your petition. It moves from place to place and you might not when the time comes to prove the will. You might find that the will is already torn or in pieces or relevant portions are missing from it. So this is a request you must make. So I think I'll now wind up and any other questions. Yes, somebody has already put up that 208 2008 8 SCC on limitation. So please look it up from the chat box. It's there. So any questions Mr. Chhatrat because what questions I've got am answered. Yes, sir. I'll take the question. I was getting through the headphones. Okay. Come back to your ears. This is by Somil. How to divide the property after obtaining letter of administration. The letters of administration gives you right to deal with the property. Normal division is going to be the normal rule of partition. If it's a property, which is agriculture, then you'll have to go to the revenue officers. They will do it. And if it is not agriculture, it's urban, then you'll have to go and file a civil suit. That's what that's what I was trying to get at. Why can't we have a single forum where you get a probate also you get the division. The properties are also in cases any dispute. All disputes are decided at one shot. Exactly what I'm trying to say. In fact, this is the example I would have given. And next question. In which petition seeking petition has been filed for seeking provide. And even if it is non contested yet it can be rejected. Yes, it can be rejected if he's unable to prove the will. It can be invalidly executed in unable to prove the ingredients of due execution of a will sound disposing mind. Then that he has signed in the presence of the other witness signed himself, etc. Those are the elements of section 68 of the evidence act. And to be executed as per 63. Any next question. Letter of administration can be obtained in respect of it. Yes, it can be it's only a right to administer the property. It does not give you a right to sell the property. Letters of administration. If you want to sell it, you'll have to go back to the court. You can divide it amongst the beneficiaries who are ready to take it. That's all. Whether the beneficiary himself can become one of the witness in the registered way. There's no prohibition, but it is not advisable. Because a beneficiary is not supposed to participate in the execution of a will. Because the objection that will come if it is contested will badly be that he prevailed over the will of the old man or the old person or anybody else and got him to execute a will. So it's a very, very dangerous thing to become a witness. But yes, if you are depriving somebody of property, then please try and make him a witness. Then he can't get out of it. So please kindly clarify on the aspect of nominee, vis-a-vis beneficiary in the light of subject today. Nominee in the light of? Nominee, vis-a-vis beneficiary. Nominee as in what? Nominee, vis-a-vis beneficiary. What is the difference between the two? Normally you don't have a nominee in a will. In a will, it is the beneficiary. Nominee is in your bank accounts or in your shares or in those things. So beneficiary is the person to whom the amount is given in the will. And if he's a nominee, then they will contest amongst each other that I am the nominee. And in case the court gives a declaration that the property has gone to person A as per the will, then the nominee will have to cede. Next. Can an executor file for certificate of probate if he's a party to the same suit should you property pending? Yes, yes, why not? There are many executors who are beneficiaries also. Is an appointment of an administrator by the testator in the will mandatory? No, it's not mandatory. Can there be a family arrangement among the issues even though one of them has a will in his favor? A family arrangement presumes a resolving of issues arising from anything, whether it's a will or it's not. Even a will can be part of a family settlement. I think if that Kala Singh judgment of Supreme Court was regarding a will also. So there's no prohibition family settlement is one very strange animal in our country. Where there are no holds barred anything can be done. Why did it's a oral family settlement? If it's in writing, then it requires registration. Why does a probate make sense in Delhi where it is not mandatory? Like I told you that in 90% of the country does not apply. But it makes sense to apply because you then otherwise then you'll go to the match state first you'll go to judicial match state first class first. Then from there you'll go and appeal to the district judge then from there you go to the high court. Then you'll go to the Supreme Court here you can land straight in the high court with a probate. Why did there's not too much of a dispute? But then the difficulties if they dispute then you might land back again in the magistrate as far as declaration of title is concerned. Distinction between will and title. This question is at 647. Distinction between section 276 and 278. 276 uses word will and that administration whereas 278 does not. That's what I told said right at the. Maybe he's only clarifying for the audience. Organ and administrator distribute the property. Heard me, there is no need for a will in the case of a letters of administration. But in certain cases where the court feels that in the case of a will also they may grant letters of administration. Instead of granting a probate where certain debts are to be collected etc. Please we'll have to I'm the judgment is not with me but I was a lawyer in one of these cases where instead of probate the high court granted us letters of administration. In essence it doesn't meet much of a difference but the impact in law is very different. You could explain the difference also once we're touching upon that. The difference between. You're saying there's a difference between the two. Yes, because in in in a probate the entire property was in the person to whom probate is granted. And then he is liable. Later on to account for the property not only to the court but also to all the beneficiaries in. In this letter of administration if you somebody has 278 before him is very clear. He only gets it for the purpose of collecting the properties. See this. Letters of admittance will be made by a petition strictly written as a foreset stating. Now what is it for. If you can read it somebody can read it actually we need to have a separate session on letters of administration.  I have no issue on sitting here for the next half an hour but actually I've got something else lined up. Later in the evening. So I have to. Any other question you can. Very separately also. I'll answer each one of them. Few questions from the YouTube I'm taking. Yeah, letter of administration cases on witnesses examined as per real. Challenger has not pretty. This is a very. He's got it mixed up. He will be valid and effective and test either is convicted on a criminal case. This data is committed in a community. I'm so on the test. How does that I mean I'm sorry I'd like to ask the gentleman the question is hearing me. How is that relevant. A person can make a will even before he's being hanged. Just because you are. You may lose your right of inheritance in case of if you killed your father.  Whether you are a convicted or not. We don't have politicians don't lose the right. How can you anybody loses the right to make a will. Next question. Banished by a quote from the property. Or owning due to a misbehavior with the parents and he later influences and occupies the property. Does he have to file the consent terms with the court. You mean to say that. First the parents take the property back. And then they again give it to him. That is not mentioned. Yeah, he says he later influences them and occupies the property. Occupies the property is not a part of this will. I'm just brushing up. Let me be very clear till a person is alive. And it's his personal property. He can do anything with it. He does not. He's not answerable for what he does to his property to anybody. So it's up to me if it's my private personal property. Today I give it to my son and ask him to look after me. He doesn't look after me. Then under that act I can take it back. But later on it doesn't prevent me from making a will in his favor. If there are other beneficiaries they may use that as a circumstance to say. That this is a fraud will or a fabricated will. Those are facts which are part of the legal strategies. Yes, next question. Does the nominee of the bank account have to specifically be named as a beneficiary of that account with the will. It's up to the person executing the will. If he's not named or somebody else is named that somebody else will take it. Because you have to understand a nomination is not attested by a witness. Everybody seems to be misunderstanding that nomination will prevail. A nomination is not attested by two witnesses. Therefore the nomination in the will or let's say the beneficiary of the will will prevail over the nominee. A nomination is a paper which you make in a bank where you sign and even nobody else signs. Here you have two people looking at you so this will prevail. A nomination you will get if there's nothing in the will. Therefore for nominations etc normally a person if he puts it in his will generally he will go accordance with the nomination. But if he changes it he has every right to change it. It is his property both movable and immovable can be made subject matter of a will. And if there's no will then it has to go by succession certificate then it will go to the nominee. Next question. Sir for collecting of debts when succession certificate arises when letter of administration quotes asks for succession certificate. If there is no will and the property is generally say bank accounts shares these sort of movable property then you have to go for a succession certificate. Because the succession certificate is a summary proceedings. Summary proceedings you have to understand is just like Achalan that's the legal value it has. It just gives you a certificate to say that yes I have succeeded but it's not binding on anybody. Next. If an executor is not appointed in an unregistered manner whether beneficiary should approach court or he can deal with the letter of administration. I'm sorry I was looking reading something else while you were reading. The last question if executor is not appointed in an unregistered will whether beneficiary should approach court or he can deal with the letter of administration. See please let me understand you have a will which is not registered. There is no difference between a registered will and an unregistered will both are equally valid. Both have to be executed as per this act and proved as per the evidence act. Once it is proved in court everybody has to obey that certificate. You can obtain a probate even in an unregistered will. I had started by saying this but if you don't want to obtain a probate then it will depend on the rules of your organization. Like I told you I have an example myself where in Chandigarh the property was transferred without going to court because all the beneficiaries agreed to the will. In one case there was no will. All the beneficiaries said yes transfer it to person A and the state office we have an estate office in Chandigarh agreed to it. But then the rules regarding transfer of property in municipal records varies from state to state from society to society from organization to organization. So please have a look at the rules and if any of you are in the age of making a will please have a look at the rules before you make the will. Otherwise you might along with the inheritance you might give your beneficiaries a lot of litigation. So please avoid that. There is one question I wanted to answer if there is a nominee in a mutual fund however he is not mentioned in the will. Does he have the right to claim the money under mutual fund? I have answered that. And then there is what document should a housing society in Mumbai consider if owner has died interstate but made in nomination. If he has died interstate immobile property goes as per the succession act of the individual. The succession act is the most important thing nominations are there in movable properties in case it is a certificate in in many housing societies you have certificates then you will have to go to court court will determine to whom is the right coming. Suppose in succession there are two sons. One is the nominee and as per the law board should get it equally. So then the court will determine whether the succession act would apply that's the Hindu succession act in case of an Hindu. If it's a Muslim there are different act everybody's have different act or whether the nomination would apply. Normally the courts tend to lean towards nomination because it's a declaration of a person made during his lifetime.  Please give more details when you gave example of brother filing a suit against the beneficiary claiming that the will is legal and valid but doubting and challenging the share in the request. See there are a person has three sons and two daughters. Two sons go to court or two daughters go to court saying this is my father's will. Now you know to know even daughters have our co-passengers now after 2005 amendment and the father has given the property to the three sons. The daughters will come to court and say yes we have no issue on the will but since our father this was ancestral property since our father could only will away his share as per the Hindu succession act. Go back to the end of this provision that he can make a will regarding his share section 31 I believe of the Hindu succession act. So therefore the entire disposition regarding the sons is invalid. He can only make a disposition of property regarding his share or let's take an extreme example. The property is owned by two persons. One person makes a will of the entire property and you obtain a probate without the other person knowing that person will go to court. Obviously he will obtain a declaration because the court in probate does not decide the legality of the will. It does not even decide whether this property belongs to person A or does not belong to person B. It only gives you a certificate that the will is legal and valid not its contents. I hope that satisfies the question. What is the difference between the succession certificate and the airship certificate and airship certificate. See this airship certificate is a concept which has come in just lately it has got no legal basis. There is nothing known as an airship certificate but people go and obtain it from the magistrate or from the deputy commissioner. It's only that yes I am my father son that's all or I'm my father's daughter that's about all it has got no legal value at all. Whereas succession certificate gives the right to deal with that immovable property. It's a by a court that airship certificate is by an executive authority. They normally ask you when you seek reservation or you seek admission or something of that sort they normally ask you at that time. If you have property which is immovable it's okay no problem you can go and seek a pro pro vet or file a suit or whatever you want to or a partition also. Why I don't I did not use the word partition was because in partition when the other party when you will say two declarations have to be given in partition one. Your share. And to then that it's a part of the state. So this is a it's better to go for a probate obtain it and then. Sit down and try and resolve it with your relatives. The best case is the one which you decide by a compromise. There's too much importance being given to the ideas also. The best thing to do is to go straight and nowadays. I think all lawyers are aware that you need not even go to court you go straight to the permanent. And people who are anybody here who's not from the legal profession. If you have any problem just take your problem straight to the permanent local adults. You need not even come file a suit file a case before the permanent local they'll examine if they're able to do it they'll pass a decree call everybody and pass an order. But then that. And the best part is that their orders are final. No appeal against them. I don't want to add anything more to that. Relitigation. Relitigation. Mediation. Everything is happening but I don't know. Why people this message is not going the message is confined to the legal fraternity activity. But it doesn't go out to the general public. The general public doesn't come. We can take one question that should be the last. How can an administrator distribute the properties amongst the legal areas. Can it be done through a registered family supplement. You see primarily it has to go as per the will of the deceased. If you want to alter the will of the deceased. Then there has to be a family settlement. Now the problem with the family settlement is if the document itself. Is an inter virus transfer between the parties or properties somebody share holding increasing somebody decreasing it will be deemed to be a transfer of property. Which will be registered. So if such a person would like to them to settle it. The best thing to do is to have an oral family settlement. And then after the parties have settled orally then put that into writing for the purpose of memory. The transfer takes place orally and is therefore not registrable so you don't pay a stamp duty etc. There are now a large number of Supreme Court judgments starting from 1967 I think. That a oral family settlement need not be registered. Once it is not registered so no stamp duty on that. So that's the best way to do it. But then people then the sometimes the executive is more visor they said no you paid so people end up paying it. Any other questions sir. I have no issue on anybody sending any amount of mails to me. And on any topic regarding civil law anything land laws anything please welcome everybody is welcome to ask any questions. And in fact I am using this forum actually not to any for any personal advancement. But my idea is that people who don't know the law should come forward and ask questions. And share the email probably that's the quick one. I don't know I can't see it. So please ask any questions. Thank you sir and taking lead from today's session. We'll be taking tomorrow drafting of CLD will and process of registration by a district judge S. Nagarajan ML from district judge to come to to stay connected with us tomorrow at 4 p.m. So thank you. Thank you for sharing a knowledge in a very simplified manner. And remember that the rubik you was simplifiedly solved by you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you.


From Chicago, it's theCUBE. Covering Veritas Vision Solution Day 2018. Brought to you by Veritas. Hello everyone, welcome to Chicago. We're here covering the Veritas Solution Day. Veritas last year had the Veritas Vision Conference and they brought together all their customers. This year they decided to go around the world. I think they have six or seven of these across the globe. And we just, we're in New York a few weeks ago at Tavern on the Green. We're here at the Palmer House in Chicago, iconic hotel. About 60 to 70 customers here. Of course Chicago is a big opportunity for companies like Veritas because there's such a good customer base here. But what I want to do now is going to set up what's going on in the data protection business. According to a number of sources, Gartner, IDC data, other survey data, certainly anecdotally when we talk to customers about half of the customers that we talk to are going to replace their data protection platform within the next five years. Why is that? Well there are a number of factors that are affecting that and I want to talk about the reasons why, the implications to the market and what that means for customers. So if you look back 10 years ago there was a similar dynamic going on catalyzed by the ascendancy of virtualization. What was happening is that you had all these servers that were underutilized and so the brilliance of virtualization was we're going to consolidate those servers, virtualize the compute power, dramatically increase the utilization and reduce the physical capacity that's on the floor so you can get rid of stuff, get rid of servers, spend less and get more value out of that asset because you had all these underutilized hardware assets. Data protection backup in particular was the one workload that actually could use all that compute power, why? Because at the end of the day you're backing up this huge stream of data. And so as a result when you had to do a full backup you didn't have the physical resources so people had to rethink how they architected backup because of virtualization. So you now have a similar dynamic but for different reasons. Some of the big trends that are going on here the first one is of course digital. So digital means data and it's all about how you get value out of your data because data is increasingly an important asset. People are realizing that protecting that data is more and more important. As a result people are rethinking just the definition of recovery. Recovery has to be faster, you've got to be always on in this digital world. So digital transformation is critical. You can't just bolt on backup as you have for the last 20, 30, 40 years really. Backup has been a bolt on. You've also got cloud. Everybody wants cloud like. So you're seeing a shift from improving or dealing with resource utilization and allocation as I explained in the virtualization world now to automation. Why automation? Because people want a cloud like experience. They realize they can't just shove all their data into the public cloud. There's data all over the place and I'll talk about that in a moment in terms of distributed data. But specifically people want a cloud like experience. What does that mean? That means they want pay as you go. They want simple deployment. They want fast seamless recovery and they want a lot of automation. Well the price of technology comes down year after year. The price of people doesn't and you can't just keep throwing people at the infrastructure problem because it's so complex. You have to automate and you want to shift resources toward higher value activities, digital transformation, DevOps, application development. So this distributed data world, this multi-cloud world and I'll talk a little bit more about that in a moment when I discuss the edge. It's becoming a forcing function. Multi-cloud is a forcing function to rethink your backup because you've got different infrastructure as a service providers. You've got SaaS providers. You've got all kinds of clouds that are popping up all over the lines of business and within your own data centers. As a result, you need to think about how do I catalog all that data? How do I protect that data? How do I govern that data? How do I deal with things like GDPR and make sure that I'm in compliance? So it becomes a much more complicated set of complicated equation and the variables are distinct. For example, I don't really understand what point in time means anymore. If you have distributed data, what does it mean to have a point in time copy? Point in what time? Who's the master? So you need some kind of controls in that multi-cloud world. That's a forcing function to rethink your backup. The other thing is platform. Platform beats products. And I'll talk about that in a moment. People for years have looked at backup as purely insurance. Everybody hates buying insurance. We all know that. So you're seeing people trying to get more out of their backup and recovery platforms. For instance, integrating disaster recovery. So that's becoming an integral part of people's strategies. You're also seeing analytics becoming more and more important. People are trying to, because all the data sits in the corpus of the backup, people are saying, well, why don't we analyze that data and get more out of it? Why don't we take snapshots of that data and make it available to DevOps? And what about ransomware? Which again, I'll talk about in a moment. Could I maybe look at anomalies in that data to determine if there are some problems? Many, many use cases emerging. Data classification, governance. I mentioned GDPR before. So you're seeing backup shift from pure insurance to a higher value business opportunity. And then of course, there's security, there's compliance, there's governance. Ransomware is critical. Organizations are creating air gaps, meaning disconnecting from the internet so that if they get hit with a ransomware attack, they can isolate their data. But just even that is not enough. People can get through air gaps by physically putting in whatever, sticks or malware, et cetera. So you still have to be able to use analytics to look at that corpus of backup data and identify anomalies. But again, because of those security risks and because of the importance of digital transformation and data, people are rethinking how they do data protection. And finally, there's the edge. We are living in a distributed world. It's a multi-cloud world. As I said before, it's a forcing function. And the edge is one of those clouds, if you will, which changes the way in which you think about backup. How does it change? Locality of the recovery data. If you've got edge data, if you've got multi-cloud, you've, as I said before, got to have a global catalog and recover that data locally. Another thing to think about is SLAs. In a cloud world, you, the customer, are responsible for the recovery. Well, the cloud vendor can get the light back on the disk system or the computer, the compute system. You are responsible for the people and the process to recover your business. That is not the cloud vendor's responsibility. So you need to think about that. So, and think about recovery as recovery at the business level, not just recovery of the data, but recovery, getting your business back online. There's also the three laws of the cloud. We learned this from Pat Gelsinger this August at VMworld, the laws of physics, the laws of economics, and the law of the land. Those will dictate where you put data and how you back up that data. So all of this has created a new landscape in the data protection business. Let's run down that landscape. Who are the leaders?  Those guys comprise probably two thirds or more of the marketplace. And you have startups like Cohesity and Rubrik who have raised hundreds of millions of dollars going after them and challenging them. You've got a whole new set of players that are taking new approaches. Actifio, for example, got the whole copy data management thing going. Datrium is creating end-to-end, both primary storage and data protection back up in the same platform with a software-based cloud-like, SaaS-like offering. You got companies like Zerto and Imanus Data that are specialist. You got companies like Wendisco, again, taking new approaches. And then you have Oracle with Oracle Recovery Appliance, which is totally changing the way in which backup works for Oracle databases exclusively, taking a database-led approach to backup. And then, of course, you've got the storage players that are part of the ecosystem, even though they're not directly competing with backup software vendors. Guys like Pure, NetApp, Infinitap, they're partnering with backup vendors. And then, of course, there's the cloud guys, AWS, Azure, Google. The thing to think about as customers is three things. Platform versus product. What's the platform look like? Is it an API-based platform? Because you want to program to that platform, infrastructure as code, you want to support your DevOps infrastructure. The second is cloud-like pricing and cloud-like deployment. You want a cloud-based operating model to simplify your operations and lower your IT labor cost and shift those costs to more strategic efforts and initiatives, such as digital transformation and application development. And the third is ecosystem alignment. Make sure that your backup software vendor and your backup solution vendors, their ecosystem, is aligned with your ecosystem because you're going to get more facile integration and problem-solving and flexibility if those systems align. So take a look at that as well. A couple of things I want to mention and emphasize. New application development models, cloud-native, Kubernetes, function, people call it serverless, but function-based programming, really to support DevOps and infrastructure as a code, that is going to have implications on how you protect data. And finally, AI. How can you talk about anything today without talking about AI? Anticipatory staging of data for recovery. As an example, predicting where problems are going to occur, machine intelligence will increasingly play a role in this whole landscape. So you can see there's a lot going on. This is why data protection is such a hot space. It's why the VCs are getting in. It's why the incumbents like Veritas, Dell EMC, IBM Commvault, those that I mentioned, are trying to re-platform and hang on to their large install bases and ultimately grow them. And it's why companies in the startup and the niche spaces are tucking in and identifying new opportunities to participate. So that's a quick overview of what's going on here at the Veritas Vision Solution Day from Chicago. We'll be here all day talking to customers, talking to the practitioners, technologists and executives. So keep it right there. You're watching theCUBE. I'm Dave Vellante. We'll be right back.