My name is Peter Adler, I'm a planner, a mediator, an arbitrator, and I'm also a member of Think Tech's board of directors. And for the last several months, I've been on a walkabout doing a reconnaissance on one of the biggest issues coming up for all of us on November 6th. I haven't decided which way I will vote, and I'm not going to ask our guests that either, but I'm committed to understanding the question and making a recent decision. And I'll do that on November 5th. This special three-part Think Tech series is called Hawaii's Big Choice Should We Have a New Constitutional Convention? That question, along with a second one regarding a special property tax to fund education, will be on the ballot when we vote. Today's series deals with the first question, which is, should there be a Constitutional Convention? And we've had three of those to date. The first one was in 1959 when we became a state. The second was in 1968, and the third was in 1978. 68 and 78 produced important amendments and revisions to the Constitution, especially 78. Since then, 40 years have gone by, and we haven't revisited the Constitution. Should we? Is it time? If con-cons are a mirror of the times and reflect the issues of the day, are there challenges and problems that a Constitutional Convention should take up? That is what you will decide when you cast your ballot on November 6th. In these three half-hour segments, we are looking at different aspects of all this. In the first one, my friends Avi Soyfer and Rebecca Soon gave you a better understanding of what is at stake and how a con-con works mechanically. In the second one, Colin Moore, Kitty Yonone, and I inventoried some of the proposals that would likely come on the table if voters approved one on November 6th. And in this third one, I want to try to confront and name some of the bright hopes and dark fears that are embedded in the whole question. The con-con issue is not simple, and has many different faces and nuances and textures. In fact, it's a little like the proverbial blind men trying to figure out what an elephant is. If there is one big Uber message to all of these discussions, it's this. Let's get informed about what kind of elephant we are dealing with. Think about the big yes or no choice, and above all, get out and vote one way or the other, more on that a little later. Meanwhile, to get us started, I've invited two friends and colleagues here to help think it through. Neil Milner is a retired professor of political science from the University of Hawaii, an election night commentator and a regular columnist for Honolulu's Civil Beat, and he's also a theater buff and a drama writer and so on. He does a lot of things. Brendan Lee is the former chair of the 2016 Native Hawaiian Constitutional Convention and past president of the Association of Hawaiian Civic Clubs, a very vulnerable organization. And he's a candidate for trustee at the Office of Hawaiian Affairs. So let me start a question, feel a question to both of you. And the question is, what are we hearing? We're a little just over a month out. What are we hearing? Are people alert to these issues? Are they paying attention to it? What's the buzz on the street, if any? First, a couple real quick things. The first Constitutional Convention for the state was in 1950, not 59. And I was never the president of the Association yet. What? I'm the sitting second vice president. I don't want people out to go, wow, he's just promoting himself. He's an important person. We can have a vote right here. We can have a vote right here. We can have a vote now. But I am hearing chatter out there in circles that I move around in. When I deal with the general public, no one really seems to be talking or even know anything about the con con. But in circles that have influence and have a vested interest in a con con, they absolutely are talking. There's a very great buzz amongst them. Welcome back to that. Neil, what are you hearing? I'm not hearing very much. I think there's two kind of meta reasons why you're not hearing very much that go beyond this issue, one of which is that state and local politics is much less important than it used to be. There's all kinds of studies on that that show it. People don't have, they have less knowledge, and they have less interest. Second, and related to that, reinforcing it is the obsession with national politics, and especially with Trump and Washington. And my group that I see around my part of the public that I see who tend to be pretty interested in politics are totally wrapped up in that sort of thing. In the national scene. In the national scene, in the Trump scene, and there doesn't even seem to be any room for it. Now, remember, this is a fairly astute. These are not people who are apathetic or don't follow politics. But they don't have room for it. It's just not there. Now, maybe they'll have room if we begin to talk about it more, because it's pretty early in the game. But right now, nothing. So it's October 1 that we're filming this and talking about this, and the election's November 6. So that means there's a month and six days, or 37 days to run up. What can we expect in terms of mobilization? Will we see a rise in people paying attention to this? Who's talking about it? Who will mobilize around this issue one way or another? Well, I think that you mentioned it before, and then the part of who will mobilize it are people who are organized for prior things and have a very clear vested interest, which is one of the troublesome dynamics of this that we can come back to later if you worry about worse fears. The rest of it is not really, it's really not that clear to me what will happen when you try to mobilize the other groups. Who's going to do it? If people are attentive to newspapers, if people are attentive to those kinds of things, then they'll begin to pick up stuff like that. I'm not sure, I'm not just, I'm not saying it can't happen. I'm really not sure the way politics works in Hawaii right now, and the lack of interest in certain things, what the mechanisms are for doing these things. I mean, word of mouth can do a lot of things. Word of mouth really got David E. Gay to beat Neal Abercrombie in the primary. There was a lot of intensity there, but I don't know, I'm really puzzled about what it'll be. And I would agree about being puzzled. You know, November 6th is a month away, but October 13th is 12 days away, and that's when the absentee ballots drop. And historically, our state likes to vote absentee. So this decision might be made a lot sooner than November 6th, although we won't know the results of that until November 6th. Mobilization has started already. Like I said, you know, I've heard buzz around, great buzz in those circles that have a vested interest. I've attended three union meetings already that they're talking with their membership about Akankan. The Association of Hawaiian Civic Clubs has had many meetings already about the repercussions of a constitutional convention. I know OHA sent out an online survey through email to their server list about that because I received it. We don't have results yet though, right? No, I haven't seen any results, but the talk is there, and the actions and excitement around this issue is growing. As we sit here and shoot this episode, I know that there was another, the Women's Voter League had a forum on this on the Hawaii Island. There's another event this evening that I'm gonna attend right after this at UH Law School about Akankan. You were telling us mentioning some of that. Right, so momentum is picking up just for the conversation. There's much more conversations now starting to happen about this issue. So would it be fair to say that those who are opposed, whether it be unions or business groups and so on, will be much more organized than those who are in favor? You know, I haven't heard groups coalescing around. That's been the pattern in the past, I think. And do you think that'll hold true again? I think it'll hold true again because it's just easier, because it's not that they're opposed, it's the fact that they have mechanisms there. You're talking about labor unions, right? I think the interesting, it may be small, but a possibly significant group here is whether the kind of progressives in the state, the left wing, let's say, of the Democratic Party, organize in any way in opposition because there have been two pretty influential progressive politicians who have come out against ConCon. And they both run for office. They're both well-known. They're both very articulate. And there has been this kind of movement that emerged after the Sanders election. They're floating around out there. They're not necessarily that visible, but I wonder if something is gonna happen with that. And if they coalesce with some other groups, say some environmental groups who get really worried about things. Would you think, and the question, would you think that the fact that the primary election was very important in terms of future determinations that people are gonna go, this was all a done deal, why should I vote? I mean, is there some risk to that? Is there a risk around that? Absolutely. As you stated in my introduction that I'm running for an office, that's a big fear for us because typically we live, not typically, but we live in a Democratic versus a Republican state. And typically when big races, a Democrat wins that big race in the primary, the majority of the public here in the state assume, oh, then this race is decided. There's no point in me voting in the general election. So the fear is that the voter turnout for the general is going to be even lower than it was for the primary. And we all know how abysmal those numbers were. And they've been declining historically. Yes, absolutely. So the voter turnout could be a big factor in this people's general ignorance about the apathy and ignorance about the issues. People say it's already done deal, why should I vote, and so on. So those are gonna be factors on this. Do you think there's anything that would change that game between now and November 6 that would kind of press the button and push more voters to pay attention to this? I do. What would that be? Money. I think if some of the national PACs that have a tendency to pump hundreds of millions of dollars into an individual issue started showing up in Hawaii that people... Between now and November. Between now and November. Yeah, that's interesting. People would take notice. That's what happened on Maui with the GMO. Absolutely. And that's one of the things that the left worries about and with good reason. You know, the Koch brothers, that very well-financed and extremely sophisticated national organization has gotten very much involved in referendum this is not a referendum in quite the same way. I mean, ultimately, ConCon. They're very anti-public transit and they've been very successful in Nashville and in other places organizing to defeat referendum. So, and that's different from 1978. I mean, 1978 had a lot of political dynamics and a lot of passion, but you didn't have the PACs. You didn't have the Koch brothers. You didn't have that same kind of big money. I don't know. What are the Carpenters gonna do? I mean, if they tossed almost a million dollars in the direction of Josh Green, do they have, they certainly can see themselves having a stake in this. But I don't know what they're, we haven't heard anything about that. So far. So far, right. Sure. And would the Carpenters be able to monetarily compete against the Koch brothers? Yeah. No. Are the Koch brothers, let me make sure I understood that, are the Koch brothers their anti-initiative referendum recall? No. And I don't know if they're that.  But in this case, that I've been paying some attention to, they're anti-public, all public transit. Yeah. Okay. And so- They want to just see the privatized, they want to see- Whatever. Yeah, and they also are in the oil business. So, I mean, cars can make them a lot of money. So that in places they've pushed, they've fought against referenda that would give money for public transit, for mass transit in Nashville. So here they may be less interested in stopping the concon from going, but they may be, and it may be the same with some of these others. They'll figure that's not a big deal, but if it does pass, we'll put a lot of money into certain things. So let me just make sure I got it. So the appearance, the public appearance of a fair amount of mainland money or PAC money or super PAC money could certainly rise the tide of interest in this, as it seemed to do on Maui with the GMO and the pesticide issues over there. I think so. Sure. And since we were talking, you were talking earlier about greatest fears and greatest aspirations, the greatest fear with that super PAC money comes a ton of misinformation, where it could make one side or the other look much more favorable or not so favorable than it actually is. So thus far, we haven't seen any of that. Not yet. We don't see any real signs popping up or jumping on. Yeah, I mean, that's why I'm beginning to wonder because those campaigns are actually, the Carpenters did better in the Caldwell campaign than they did in this one, in terms of sophistication, but those are kind of long term, they do a lot of prep for them, they do a lot of surveys for them and I don't know if that's happening. They're, and they don't usually talk about it very much, but it may be that this is just too small potatoes for that kind of stuff to get in. Or too deep blue. Or too deep blue, I'll ask them to stick the money in if it turns out that it passes and there's a chance for them to get something or for them to stop something. So we're gonna go to a break in just a minute, but one more quick question. If there was to be, we've talked about who might mobilize for and that's where the big money starts to come in. Is there anybody out there who would mobilize against? Absolutely. Who will let the big money? Who will that be? No, if we said, I'm not being clear, if we said there might be big money coming in from the mainland that says, let's have one of these, we love it, it's good for your state, good for America. Who would mobilize against? Is it the same groups we've been talking about? The unions, the business round table, those kind of guys. Absolutely, unions for sure. Unions for sure. They have a lot to lose. Yeah, the native Hawaiian organizations obviously, I think the National Environmental Lobby definitely would get hugely involved. There's a kind of interesting way to think about unconventional politics, and this is an, that is, it's not the day-to-day stuff. If you have good access into the conventional political system, which certainly unions do, and lots of others, and maybe not even the environmental organizations, then you're less interested in more frightened of unconventional ways. Political protests, for example, people protest, yeah, sure, there's passion there, but it's because they don't have any other access in. And so, in a situation like this, one of the things, one of the dynamics is there are things we want to get, we don't like the way the legislature does it, it's not transparent, it's slow, it's corporate interest, and so we'll go somewhere else and try, which is exactly why those people who do get access, like the unions and so on, don't want to get involved in this kind of hustle and bustle of unconventional politics. We're gonna pick this up in a minute, we're going to a break and we'll keep talking on it. Hello and welcome to Out of the Comfort Zone. I am your villainous host, RB Kelly.  Truth number one, this is a real mustache. Truth number two, I want you to watch my show on Tuesdays at 1 p.m. So tune in and let me know which is the truth and which is the lie. I'm RB Kelly with Out of the Comfort Zone and show up next Tuesday to see my mustache live. Hello, my name is Stephanie Mock and I'm one of three hosts of Think Tech Hawaii's Hawaii Food and Farmer series. Our other hosts are Matt Johnson and Pamai Weigert, and we talk to those who are in the fields and behind the scenes of our local food system. We talk to farmers, chefs, restaurateurs and more to learn more about what goes into sustainable agriculture here in Hawaii. We are on a Thursdays at 4 p.m. and we hope we'll see you next time. So we were just talking in the break about the legislature actually could do a lot of the things that might pop out in proposals. And in fact, one of the ideas of a con con seems to be that you convene citizens because they can override things in when the legislature doesn't do things. That seems, in 78 there were a lot of issues that came out from 78 that legislature could have done previously. So that seems to be one of the functions and the others that it launches new careers and new political wins and political generations. Well, what was interesting about the 1978 con con? Just for transparency, I was in third grade when this happened, but- You didn't vote, huh? I didn't vote. Me too. But one of the things that the legislature did not expect to happen was every single thing that came out of the con con passed, the legislature did not expect that to happen. They fully believe that some of this stuff is not gonna go through or we'll be able to control. And to some extent, some of the things they were able to control, like some of the wording was changed a little bit. And so those that are entrenched will always find a way to remain entrenched. So one of the theories that's been floating around is that constitutional conventions, when they come about, tend to be a mirror of the times, the temper of the public mood. And 78 was a good example of that, the war in Vietnam, lots of environmental issues, native Hawaiian issues, plenty of things running. What's the temper of the times now that either leads to one or doesn't lead to one or makes it probable or improbable? What, the question is, what's in the public's mind? A word of caution before I take a chance at the answer. The word of caution is that I don't know how much in retrospect we saw the temper of the times and how much what was actually happening every day in the convention. And con con to me in 78 seemed really pretty amazing. You had this strong leader who kind of emerged, Bill Pei, who knew how to put coalitions together and the Hawaiian issues emerged and so on. And the graduates of the law school. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, that's right. In fact, you had them in order to get into the law school. But I don't know if there is a temper of the times right now that's relevant to con con in the way that we now see the temper of the times relevant there. When you say the war in Vietnam, that got filtered through an increased interest in community organizing, grassroots participation, political protest, Kalama Valley was certainly an example of that. Great example. Yeah, I don't know if there's, I don't think there's anything like that now. I don't think the temper of the times is what's happening in Washington, how much we don't like the other side. Tribal. Tribal, yeah. And the very important issues that should be dealt with here, I'm not sure people pay enough attention to that. I actually think that's the temperament that is here in the state right now. They're looking at the national, what's going on the national level and how all of these protections that have come about over the last 10 years are all being stripped away with a stroke of a pen. They were hard fought things that took decades to get in place that are being stripped away literally with the stroke of a pen, which is why I think the temperament now is fear. Everyone is afraid of, we open this up. It'll get crazy. What can get taken away at the snap of a finger that we're hard fought to get in 1978? Well, what about the opposite side of the coin that we see that as a continuing effort that started here and particularly in other states that have more power like California? The strategies that you have to use is assuming that the national government is going to do bad things to you, the kind of counter source that you can do and whether people want to use the Constitutional Convention to create protection from the nationals. Yeah, that's right, from the national stuff. And if the general public was a much more educated public, I would completely agree with that. But as we both said earlier, the apathy with voting, the non-interest in local politics doesn't lend itself to that. Plus, yeah, plus a lot of these changes are these incredibly important changes and steps back are done in the kind of rule-making administrative level, the sort of bread and butter things that most people don't pay attention to and it's extraordinarily important. So the temper of the times is, there's no temper of the times. Or it's not much. It's a different, it's a different area. So let's say I want to go to one of the heart of the things I wanted to get your thoughts on today. So let's imagine we had a group of people in here that were really in favor of a con con. What would be their highest hopes? What would be the things they would, what would be the hearing from advocates in favor of having a con con? Fix the legislature, much more transparency within the legislature. Structural changes. Structural changes. The sunshine law that was written in 1978 was meant to have transparency. And then once that passed, what the legislature did was just said, okay, well, we're gonna exempt ourselves from that. A con con could strip that right away from them to exempt themselves. And then now everybody has to abide by the sunshine law. So people would get, if they were, if we had a group of pros, we'd say they're mad about the way government locally functions and there's some polling that seems to reflect that. And people would want to find fixes and trying to create a game change. Ways to streamline the legislature. Ways to make it much more transparent. That would be a good place. Get rid of conference committees. Absolutely. Put in place term limits for the legislature.  So I have an interest in getting my work done because my time is limited on which I can affect change. I think there's another thing that would drive a lot of people. And it's, I mean, I can spend a lot of time being critical of it, but it's really powerful and it's very emotional. And that is giving the power back to the people. The phrase that this gives the power back to the people as I don't know what you want to say, historically overblown that idea is never mind. It's a powerful myth in American society. And you believe that this is a way to return to a form of popular democracy that lets those of us most affected by it have a role in it. And they'd say we've been cut out and it's time for some reports. That's right. That essentially the more you have this kind of thing, the more you're reflecting a true kind of democracy. What about the other side? Let's imagine we had a whole group of people here who said, no way, we don't want one. What are their worst fears? We've talked a little bit about some of those. Yeah, we don't have enough time. Well, let's get to a few of the ones that rise to the top of the list. For myself as a native Hawaiian, the first thing that comes to mind is the repeal of the Office of Hawaiian Affairs. Repealing native Hawaiian gathering rights, repealing native Hawaiian Olalo Hawaii as an official language of the state. Pretty much any minority rights, period, getting retracted through a concoct. That'd be a particular issue for all the native Hawaiians who've been paying attention to native Hawaiian issues. We know there's some that are not. But many have been and that's been building for the last 25, 30 years. Absolutely. Native Hawaiians take it for granted that I have the right to go into the ocean to collect things for sustenance when even though it says that there's no gathering in this particular area, that could be stripped away. And we don't care that your ancestors have been living on this plot of land for the last 2,000 years. You have no rights, because the law says you can't go. So it's a loss. I mean, there's loss. The fear of loss is one of the drivers. And that would be true with environmental groups and some of the unions who enjoy collective bargaining. Right. I think that's generally the driver. It's a fear of losing something that you have now that might disappear by accepting totally at this stage unknown and uncontrollable process at this stage. So you have to decide if a person sees stuff that he or she would like to get and also sees things that would, you know, there might be Hawaiian groups or whatever that are interested in making the legislature more transparent, hard as that is to believe. But at the same time, so there are choices that are going to be made here. But the kind of progressive opposition to, and in some ways, Tom Kaufman's opposition to having a con con is based on those two things. You're going to lose some really good stuff. The constitution is fundamentally good.  So one scenario on November 6th or on the 7th when all the votes are in and they've been counted or midnight when you're still there talking about it. Well, one scenario is that it's all, it didn't pass. It died. That's the end of it. And it goes back on the 10-year clock and, you know, 10 years again from now, there'll be another chance for the citizens to vote or the legislature can put ballots on there ballot initiatives or call one if they choose. The other scenario is that it passes. And if it passes, talk to me a little bit about what you think the delegate mix would be in any election delegates. Who would roll out? Because that's another piece of this. I don't know that we can answer that at this time because that, like we were saying, well, like you were saying earlier, if it passes, who's who out there is going to take interest? You know, the Koch brothers maybe don't have any interest in this right now. Then all of a sudden it passes and we're going to have a con con. Now all of a sudden their eyes are looking at, oh, you're going, hey, they're going to have a con con. We can pump some money in and get some people that we can control in as delegates and let's strip away some land rights so that we can develop wherever we want. So fears of that dark money are one of the drivers. We only got a minute left and I'd love to hear from each of you. If you had one comment you'd like to make to anybody who might be listening to this, what would it be? What would you like to tell people about this? Get educated, learn about what a con con means, learn what's important, figure out for yourself what's important to you and what you want to preserve for you yourself and your family and the generations to come past you and then have that help you drive your decision of whether you want to support or not support a constitution or convention? I would say listen to both sides. And what I mean by that is that so much of regular politics here is through partisan filters. In this case, the partisan filters aren't there. And you know, it might be an advantage that people don't know very much about this and don't have preconceived notions. Make that work for you. Actually for once, be a kind of citizen that we're always looking for, but sell them fine, which is a person who can sit back, look at both sides and then make a decision. There are strong arguments on both sides. You can figure those out for yourself. You're not gonna have a certain answer, but do that. So that's also my kind of closing comment is my counsel is pick an issue that you are worried about and you want to protect or an issue that you want to advocate for and see change and either way get out and vote and think those issues through. Think those issues through. Brenda and Neil, thank you so much for joining us. It's been a pleasure. Thank you.


The author's epilogue of the DeCameron This is the LibriVox recording. All LibriVox recordings are in the public domain. For more information or to volunteer, please visit LibriVox.org. The DeCameron by Giovanni Boccaccio, translated by H. M. Rigg. The author's epilogue Most noble damsels, for whose solace I addressed me to this long and tossome task. Me seams that, aided by the divine grace, the bestowal whereof I impute to the efficiency of your pious prayers, and in no wise to merits of mine, I have no broad this work to the full and perfect consummation, which in the outset thereof I promised you.  But this I purpose not to allow them, until briefly as to questions tacitly mooted, for well assured I am that these stories have no a special privilege above any others. Nay, I forget not, that at the beginning of the fourth day I have made the same plain. I shall have answered certain trifling objections, that one of you may be or some other might advance. Per adventures, then, some of you will be found to say, that I have used excessive license in the writing on these stories, in that I have caused ladies at times to tell, and often times to list, matters that, whether to tell or to list, do not well be seen virtuous women. The which I deny, for that there is none of these stories so unseemly, but that it may without offence be told by any one, if but seemly words be used, which rule me thinks has here been very well observed. But assume, we, that this even so, for with you I am not minding to engage in argument, waiting that you would vanquish me. Then I say that, for answer, where I have so done, reasons many, come very readily to hand. In the first place, if all of the kind in any of these stories there be, it was but such as was demanding by the character of the stories, which let but any person of sound judgment scan with the eye of reason, and it will be abundantly manifest that, unless I had been minded to deform them, they could not have been otherwise recounted. And if, but chance, they do after all, contained here and there a trifling indiscretion of speech, such as might ill sort with one of your precious truths, who weigh words rather than deeds, and are more concerned to appear than to be good, I say that sort of right was as permissible to me as this to men and women at large in their converse to make use of such terms as whole and pin and mortar, and pestle and sausage and polony, and plenty more besides of alike sort. And there was all privilege no less should be allowed to my pen than to the pencil of the painter, who without incurring any or at least any just censor, not only will depict St. Michael smitting the serpent, or St. George the dragon, with sword or lance in his discretion, but male he paints as Christ, and female Eve, and his feet that were the salvation of our race will to die upon the cross, he fastened thereto, now with one and now with two nails. Moreover, this patent to all, that it was not in the church, of matters were to pertaining, this meet we speak with all purity of heart and simlinness of race, albeit among her histories, there are to be found not a few, that will ill compare with my writings, nor yet in the schools of the philosophers, where as much as anywhere, simlinness is demanded, nor in any place or clergy or philosophers congregate, but in gardens, in plazonses and among folk, young indeed, but not so young as to be seductible by stories, and at a time when, if so one might save one's life, the most sedate might without disgrace walk abroad with his breeches for headgear, that these stories well told. Which stories, such as they are, may, like all things else, be baneful or profitable according to the quality of the hero, who knows not that wine is, as Cingiglione or Scolayo and many other aware, an excellent thing for the living creature, and yet noxious to the fevered patient. Are we, for the mischief it does to the fever-stricken, to say that it is a bad thing? Who knows not that fire is most serviceable, nay, necessary to mortals? Are we to say that, because it burns houses and villages and cities, it is a bad thing? Arms, in like manner, are the safeguard of those that desire to live in peace, and also by them are men, not seldom maliciously slain. I'll pay the malice not in them, but in those that use them for a malicious purpose. Corrupt mind did never yet understand any word in a wholesome sense, and as such a mind has no prophet of seemly words, so such as are scarce seemly, may as little avail, to contaminate a healthy mind, as month radiance of the sun, or the deformities of earth, the splendors of the heavens. What books, what words, what letters are more sacred, more excellent, more venerable, that those of holy writ? And yet there have been not a few that, perversely constructing them, have brought themselves and others to perdition. Everything is in itself good for somewhat, and being put to a bad purpose may work manifold mischief.  Nor if any shall seek profit and reward in them, will they deny him the same, and sendured or accounted as less than profitable and seemly they can never be, if the times or the persons one and by whom they are read be such, as when they were accounted. If any lady must need say pattern nostres, or make cakes or tarts for her holy father, let her leave them alone, there is none after whom they will run a begging to be read. How bad there are little matters that even the beguines tell, I and do now and again. In like manner there will be some who will say that there are stories here which it were better far had been omitted. Granted, but it was neither in my power nor did it be of me to write any but such stories as were narrated, wherefore it was for those by whom they were told to have a cure that they were proper, in which case they would have been no less though as I wrote them. But assuming that I not only wrote but invented the stories as I did not, I say that they should take no shame to myself that they were not all proper. Seeing that artists there is none to be found, save God, that does all things well and perfectly. And Charlemagne, albeit he created the Pelladins, wished not how to make them in such numbers as to form an army of them alone. It must needs be that in the multitude of things there be found diversities of quality. No field was ever so well-tilled, but that here and there nettle or sassel or breer would be found in it amid the goodlier growth. Where too I may add that, having to address me to young and unlearned ladies, as you for the most part are, I should have done foolishly had I gone about searching and swinking to find matters very exquisite and been sedulous to speak with great precision. However, because there goes a reading among these stories, let him pass over those that wax him and read those that please him, that none may be missled each beers on its brow the epitome of that which it hides within its bosom. Again, I doubt not there will be such, as we'll say, that some of the stories are too long, to whom once more I answer, that whoso has ought else to do would be foolish to read them, albeit they were short. And though, now that I approach the end of my labours, it is long since I began to write, I am not therefore oblivious, that it was to none but leisure ladies that I made proffer of my pains, nor can ought be long to him that reads, but to pass the time, so only he thereby accomplishes his purpose. Succinctness were rather to be desired by students, who are at pains not merely to pass, but usefully to employ their time than by you, who have as much time at your disposal as you spend not in amorous delights. Besides which, as none of you goes either to Athens or to Bologna or to Paris to study, it is me that what is meant for you should be more diffuse than what is to be read by those whose minds have been refined by scholarly pursuits. Nor make I any doubt that there are yet others who will say that the said stories are too full of jests and merry consents, and that it all besiems a man of weight and gravity to have written on such wise. To these I am bound to render, and do render my thanks. For that, prompted by well-meant zeal, they have so tender regard to my reputation, but to that which they urge against me I reply after this sort, that I am of weight or I acknowledge having been often weighed in my time. We are therefore in answer to the fear that have not weighed me, I affirm that I am not of gravity. On the contrary, I am so light that I float on the surface of the water, in considering that the sermons which the friars make, when they could chide the folk for their sins, are today, for the most part, full of jests and merry consents and drollaries. I deemed that the like stuff would not ill-be-see my stories, written as they were, to banish women's dumps. However, if thereby they should laugh too much, they may be readily cured thereof by the lament of Jeremiah, the passion of the Saviour or the complaint of the Magdalene. And who shall question, but that yet others there are who will say that I have an evil tongue and venomous? Because here and there I tell the truth about the friars. Now for them that so say there is forgiveness. For that is not to be believed, but that they have just cause, seeing that the friars are good folk, and a shoe-hardship for the love of God, and grind intermittently, and never blab. And were they not all a trifle malodorous, in their course with them would be much more agreeable? Nevertheless I acknowledge that the things of this world have no stability, but are ever undergoing change, and this may have befallen my tongue, no great while ago one of my fair neighbours. For in what pertains to myself I trust not my own judgment, but forgo it to the best of my power. Told me it was the goodliest and sweetest tongue in the world, and ensues when this occurred few of the sad stories were yet to write. Nor for that those who so tax me do it despitefully, am I minded to watch save them any further answer. So then be every lady at liberty to say and believe whatever she may think fit. But this now time for me to bring these remarks to a close, with humble thanks to him, by whose help and guidance I, after so long travail, have been brought to the desired girl. And may you, sweet my ladies, rest ever in his grace and peace, and be not unmindful of me, if per adventure any of you may in any measure, have been profited by reading these stories.


Okay, that's incredible. It's switch on. So welcome to this talk, which is going to introduce you the GXP as a form HPE and The experience that we face when we try to enable Linux on top of it. My name is Jean-Marie Valin I'm working with the Lewis Luchani on that program So we are both part of the advanced development team at HPE So the world of HPE is to enable technology that we Believe could be relevant to the company within the next couple of years. So we are not working on short-term product We are just we are working at enabling new tech, which could be really relevant within our roadmap We are here today just to present you the work that we have done on On the BMC side of the servers and the experiment that we have run regarding open BMC So first things, what is the BMC? How many of you are really familiar with the BMC infrastructure of a server? Okay, I can see that all the people who came are interested in doing that So it's here. So you can see there.  I think it's still relevant with the OCP hardware But that's that's mainly a system on chip infrastructure Which is coupled to a couple of other chip like a CPLD and the DRAM and it's it's there to Manage the servers and giving you the opportunity to turn it off turn it on and managing the health of the platform There is something specific at HPE is that this chip is not something that we purchased from the suppliers We are still designing that That processor and this is a this is a custom as it that we design the main reason behind that is We believe it's really critical for a company like ours and to own this technology for two main reasons The first one is Security and the second one is debugging the platform So the BMC is the technology which is giving Access to all the hardware and when there is issues coming up So you need to to be able to understand how to debug them properly BMC are not new and Lewis is there to to speak about The history of the BMC what is new is that we are enabling Linux support on top of it And there is a lot of reason why we decided to make it happen right now and not before I'm not within the next couple of years So let's go ahead and deal with thanks John Marie So if you can if you can indulge a little little quick history on this so it really starts way past Over where John Marie is so HPE had the the first x86 based server we marketed, you know a long time ago in the early 90s 1992 we had a thing called server manager R and the evolution these were cards that were plugged into the servers and It made it all the way up to where you see in the slide So this is where we started having an an embedded ASIC down on the motherboard So the ones before that would do management, but things like you know it's back in the day It's sent out a page to your pager if something, you know Unauthorized login that kind of stuff so now we embedded it so interesting to this group is what kind of operating systems You know so it's been an evolution from operating systems all the way to embedded Linux to where we're going today so we've hopped from You know our first boards use ThreadX and then we used before that we used Vx works and then Green Hills integrity and so on so we've started off with with the ASICs themselves very humble ASIC called the I just I low and then I low to I low 3 is the one where we started You know adding a lot of power to the ASIC so Things like you know hardware built AES encryption more capable processor, you know an arm 926 You know for that kind of thing is actually pretty good and then I low 4s where we started adding more even more capable processors So so these are you know starting around. I'm sorry starting around arm 9 So it's like the the Cortex a9 is where we're running things and then the silicon has continued to evolve We have a we have a group at HPE that the designs the silicon for for this and for other things so One of the things one of the advantages we have is we have the firmware team and we have the ASIC team So we can we can optimize a lot better Next slide So why why after all that? Why are we going to Linux? So we start off with these reasons here So number one is the control plane is integrated into a come into the computer Architecture it's more easily done with Linux. So when we say control plane We're talking about you know, there are a lot of things out in the industry It's like security plane management plane control plane data plane, you know all that kind of stuff So it's kind of kind of mom, you know kind of a gray area in there. So Control plane is is in this context. We're talking about it's running on the OS It's calling down into the BMC to get to get sensor data and stuff like that and then In execute control so Linux is more optimized because because typically you're gonna have Linux running on the host You're gonna have Linux running in the in the BMC. So things things are you know Mesh up a lot nicer. That's one of the reasons Linux is a well-known and understood environment. So getting developers and things like that is a lot easier than then like for instance We have a our current operating system, you know for the things we're selling today It's not easy to find people that have that kind of embedded experience It's they can easily adapt but it's still other, you know, so higher threats. So The thing is that some in some cases the You know a proprietary Solution doesn't cover the whole spectrum of expect expectations. So so what we're trying to talk about there is is that a Like some of these expectations are are I believe that that my OS is safe I don't believe that the BMC is safe, you know things like that. So This is we're sort of straying a little bit over towards open BMC. It's like well I own up my my instance of open BMC therefore I trust it, you know, so that those those are things there And then common software base between vendors. So obviously with with with embedded Linux It helps us avoid for instance, I can give an example. So with our with our proprietary system It's like we wanted to add a driver for a USB front port, right? So So we had to handcraft it we and then and then also we had to buy some Elements of that so and then in the end after all that money and time and all that we ended up supporting a USB flash drive And that's it, you know, not other USB devices USB keyboards and all that that's different. So With this what it lets us do is we just obviously with open source, you know, the driver's already there, you know The USB front port just you know works and it works and you know for all kinds of different devices And we didn't spend any money or any development time on that and then lastly The BMC hardware can do it So the thing is that with the capabilities where we showed the evolution all the way the capabilities are there now in the ASIC And our ASIC that will run open BMC rather nicely even though even though Open BMC and Linux and all that's probably more, you know, I know I know that we're talking about embedded Linux and all that We're usually talking about a more capable process or running it not, you know, really, you know Like an M4 or something like that. So anyway, so though those are the those are the reasons why why we're doing it and we are doing it So that what this discusses is is leveraging GXP security GXP is the name of our our ASIC that would that we're shipping today So leveraging the security capabilities that are on there So so the one that really comes out is as a feature we have called silicon router trust So that's in the silicon itself. So so if you're going to be building open BMC or anything This is probably pretty interesting. So in the silicon itself what we have is we have a hash for The that what we call the micro boot block, which is up there and it's labeled number one Okay, and then within that in other words, you can't change that because if you change that the hash isn't the silicon isn't going to recognize it Okay, so that's the silicon router trust. So within that micro boot block There are keys a group of that RSA keys that are used to check the signature of what comes next So you have the micro boot block that launches, you know, it goes in this order right here the micro boot block Goes up to the GXP loader, which I'm sorry if I can't find it here Oh way up there and then jumps over to you boot and then and then launches. So that that's a chain So if you're developing code that that's based on this you can continue the chain all the way up You know to cover everything So it's it's it's anchored to think of it this way. It's just anchored into the ASIC Yes, Nick did I miss something there and show Marie? I don't know if I got And is what you see on that slide could look like something easy But it took us a lot of time just to build up the whole software infrastructure to properly support that So as I said during the previous talk we work on enabling Linux since the past three years So between the pandemic building up the right tools to have to build the environment and all the security impact that it has it does explain why it took us About three years between the first day and and and and the day we feel more comfortable about publicly disclosing what we are doing around Linux on GXP ASIC and The main reason behind this is there is a lot of work And and that's that that has been the main reason why it took us such a amount of time So we are currently scaling the capability to support and enabling Linux on on GXP and go ahead No, it's that's up to you. Okay, so this this is shifting gears a little bit So this is this is how you're running open BMC So the the challenge the challenges that you have these servers and we make you know millions of servers, right? So the challenges all these servers. They're out in the field. How do we keep that protect them for against somebody, you know Using this mechanism to update to open BMC as a way to end, you know, introduce malware You know, so I have this say for instance if I had a weak process I could I could you know load You know a root kit or something like that into the ILO so we want to prevent that so that's why we have this transfer of ownership Thanks, so it all starts off with I'm just going to give you a really high level view of it So it starts off with you have a somebody's interested in doing this. I want to I have my ProLiant server I want to be able to run open BMC on it and and deploy that to my fleet for instance so it's it starts off with going to the to the what we call program office, you know at hp.com and It'll it Enables you to to build and sign your open BMC firmware So we provide the keys and things like that that lets you do that and then Also as part of that process a step number two is you have to have permission. This is this is a this is how we're kicking it off This isn't how this might not be how it's going to be forever So it's just how we're going to start it. We want to start it kind of contained You know because people we want to know who's doing that and if you have problems and all that so so we can we can help it So, you know help the process so you go to the the program PMO office and after approval You will send HPE your public key HPE will sign that public key with its private key and then send it back as part of a package that Package is installed on this USB key and you don't have to use the USB key But that's just for convenience right there So so you plug it in you're on your you're on the website It builds the key for you with everything and like I said most importantly the signed the signed public key your signed public key and then you you you plug in the USB key into the System that you want to transfer ownership and it loads that key and Kicks off the process where it loads the key. So now you have two keys So you have the HPE key and your key So you any firmware that comes in can sign can be signed by either and it will load that in there so Say you decide you want to sign your own open BMC and load it in there. So the the next part of the process is is There are several steps that have to be in the right order, but essentially you're loading The servers off you're loading the system ROM firmware UFI image. There's a special image that you need for that Then you're loading the open BMC image See I'm going kind of out of order here So so some those things happen that your only feedback at that point is it is when you plug in the key that you're going to get Remember the servers off. So you're going to get a pattern with the LED in the front It says everything's cool or everything's not cool. Okay, so the servers off I lo is on so it's doing that kind of stuff So if it did all of these steps correctly, then it's gonna it's gonna install the firmware reboot the I lo I'm sorry install the I lo firmware install the UFI firmware Reboot the I lo and then the server is going to reboot and it's going to come up running that UFI firmware Okay Any questions on that because I feel like I kind of you know what? funny order there because The HPE UFI firmware thinks that there's an HPE I lo so there there interfaces in there that have to tie up And it's not the same for open BMC I'm sorry what well is you you have to be okay with it because it's signed by you by you there Wait, is that but that's that's an HPE UFI version So roughly for open BMC at the beginning we would have a specific ROM revision the main reason is because There's no standard ask way Of communication between the BMC and the host and the ROM So we are trying to work with the community to try to standardize that so we Have options which we would like to provide The the current ROM is really relying on the proprietary technology from HPE. It's not it's not that we are not willing to open source it it's more that it's a it's tricky to up to make it happen because we need to upstream a lot of things into upon BMC and it needs to get approved first and But that's that's clearly something we want to get rid of so we are trying to work We are not trying we are working extremely hard to try to have a single ROM instead of having to my best Scenario would be that we might be achieving that somewhere next year But this is still still a lot of work This this is all scriptable too by the way So you can tie it all together as if it were one operation if you wanted to the key things regarding this process, you know When you are going to run open source firmware on HPE platform You will be benefiting from the Silicon Woods of trust and that's really key. We we want to have and users Having the same kind of experience. They might be expecting from From I know when we speak about security behavior Just quickly. Can you explain how you limit this to a subset of machines and how that works when like motherboards are Swapped and all that you need to have a specific user account and to get the USB recognized It's it's tight it's currently tied to a Specific user account with a specific credential and you need the customers needs to put to put this credential on the USB key No, that's not going to work because you still need the credential to be set up So is the the account is not created by the company so roughly what how it works you get you had I know You need to create on the I know interface a specific user account with credential that you own your security officer on and do not share with anybody and Then then you get the USB key and I know is going to match The USB key with the user account which has been created If you if you give them permission to do it there They can do it and then there are other schemes like well We can make a certificate base or something like that But that's just kicking the can a little bit further back right at some point you need a user Trusted user to install a certificate or any anything like that So why you know if you can kick the can somebody's going to figure out that you can do that So what's the point? So make it you know make it user base if you have strong authentication, you know and into the ILOs so that step you could make Two-factor authentication, you know, there are all these these Kerberos, you know the LDAP, you know all that kind of stuff It can be installed on any piece of hardware if the user account exists But we can we can enhance the security if it's needed for specific customer needs By using the azik ID and saying that image can be feeling only that specific machines So there is a unique ID which is available on each platforms with Hulu That's that's a that's the dilemma that we face too and then and and would love to hear your feedback But one one of the one of the scenarios that that we got a lot of feedback was going to you know That customers were going to hate is that if I if I node locked it, you know Like what Jean Marie was saying with with the ASIC ID now, you know, I qualified all this stuff Now I want to go deploy it to 10,000 servers that that's not going to scale So in feedback from customers were they were telling us that that you know They'd rather have this method to where they can deploy it in mass So roughly we we really can adapt the metal based on the customer Security feedback and expectation the challenge is more How do we enable that as a first step because it's needed whatever happened to enable the Linux counter to boot on these platforms and In the end we believe that is still safe. So the challenge is more Within each organization people are trusting Different group of people in different ways So you get some very tight very strict security behavior or you got something which is wide open depending on the company and this is this is something that we We need to address on the customer by customer case and that is why there is a PMO office because depending on the requirement We can adapt the process. That's that's the other things So and and that's the main reason why it does exist because right now without going through the PMO and getting getting away to Update your firmware No unlock your your system and it's not unlocked in the end because in the end It's it's being locked to your keys to your signature keys So which means that if your private key is safe somewhere It's going to be pretty tough just to hack your systems from another customer image, whatever So we are we are assuming that there is a security officer at them at the customer side And the security officer would be in charge of putting in place the process inside the company. That's the really key things Suppose that you buy a server second hand from someone who know locked it and use it a key themself Or it was you and you accidentally lost your private key somehow What's the procedure in that case to get yourself back into that server?  So the the PMO office will be in charge of Trusting you so probably with through a proof of purchase or whatever and And then finding the right solution The intimate case is mother-in-law swap That's the intimate case Yeah, the HP key is still there, but we're not we're not going to Change ownership without being sure that both parties agrees If you lose your key you get back to us You give us another key and we way and you you have to go back through the same process in some way and then We do not recommend to lose the private key. That's not a good idea Because what whatever happened that is going to be a mess so But I think any good security officer will tell you privately I'm not made to be lost You you have your own policy to save them Not a questions on the slides. Yeah Yeah, go When you describe this process here, you mentioned there is two key What type of this to key and then they are like privates or per key or they are corresponding to the Key that's already programmed Then you have to sign with or and then you mentioned as well the firmware is the firmware came from where it's like Customer firmware or from from you actually so they're there to there are two public keys, right? So when you buy the server is only one public key. It's HPE firmware So we you can't flash anything through ILO that isn't signed by HPE So the second one is that is the the customer The public key that corresponds to the private key that you would sign with your firmware or open BMC if in so you'd sign open BC with your private key public is as preloaded into the ILO and that's what it uses Right right now. It's RSA 30 30 was 76. Is that right? Which one 36 I think yeah It's it's it's the one there to ours to RSA The two RSAs that are allowed by CNSA So if you operate it and you know, there's a list of ciphers. It's published It's called a CNSA suite and those are the ones that those are the highest ones So those two are allowed so I lo I lo will accept those two, you know and And the hashing algorithm has to be shot through 84 no no others That's that's I'm kind of going into an area here, but I lo has different security modes at the highest mode That's what's required Sorry, I didn't hear you Why are we why are you migrating to open BMC? When the machine has been unlocked so roughly this is the last step within the red Square there So we transfer the ownership You install a ROM first and then you install open BMC. No, yeah, why to open BMC before that you had your own HP Had his own their own. Why do we want to install open BMC? In our cases, we don't want to install open BMC. That's mainly our end-user So are willing to gain that capability and and we think it's a good idea, too But it could be other things than open BMC So as long as it's supported on the on the azix, so we know that we can run green hands and Linux So as long as it's based on Linux, you can you can boot up whatever you want So if you are building up your own user space environment for a BMC, that's fine So HP gives the open BMC major no HP is not providing any kind of open BMC image. We are providing We are upstreaming Driver capability into the Linux kernel. So if you go to the Linux kernel main in is you would be seeing some some threads around gxp drivers But the end user has to recompile its own open BMC image and signing up Right, so I work on the way moving BMC area To do that we need to know a lot more about the platform like say what sensors you got where and all that kind of stuff So we do we do provide a user space environment into open BMC And we are under the process to upstreaming it So it's currently available publicly as a fork within the you let back out github organization repo But we we we soon upstreamed a lot of things into into open BMC The challenge that we face currently is it has been written by HP engineers with HP cut staining or quick and dirty mood So we well now cleaning up the code and make it compliant with the code stylings that all the Open source organization are expecting when submitting code So you upstream all your open BMC ports. Yeah, that's gonna add their own stuff onto it and then install Yeah, the intern that we have clearly is Upstreaming everything that we have and turning to our end users if they want to run up on BMC on HP platform They have to rebrand from the upstream Everything which would be outside the upstream is not going to be any kind of supported features from HPE Okay. Thank you. That's my question. Thanks. Let's try to move forward a lot of question here so the key things to To keep in mind is you cannot run any kind of Linux operating system on the GXP as it without transferring the ownership and Becoming liable for the security of your system So that's that's the key point The way we transfer the ownership is open. So what we describe here is the current way it is set up so we we might be adapting depending on on your request and And your needs so that's the key point that there is a very strict rule So you need to have security officials being able to recompile open BMC or the links can also We have a lot of discussion with end users. We went through that process through a couple of Be that as end users and it went okay, everything is okay and and that works fine So all the everything which is presented today today has been tasty that scale. I would say with the Darius and users so we got feedbacks and we build up that strategy with their with their input in some way So now let's turn a little bit more Around the technology. So what is the GXP BMC and what's inside the base? So and so that is this as you that you can see there. That's a zoom in pictures Where it does connect it connect to the source bridge of the infrastructure. Let me go fast to the global are your interfaces So That's a traditional SOC in some way. So there is a memory controller. You can interface DDR3 or DDR4 memory interface It can connect to an expansion bus where we have a couple of devices like in VRAM or I square C Devices to monitor the platforms. We have a concept which is called see-off sensors So we got I would say dozens of thermal sensors within each HP servers from which you can gather health status of the machines and use use this input to Optimize the management of the platform so you can get access to this through Through the expansion bus. We had a couple of spy interfaces. So we have the BMC flash the system flash That's something interesting into the GXP as a so we can boot the host by using A ROM which is sitting in RAM instead of directly accessing the spy devices That's pretty efficient for updates or for testing The the other thing is What should I hand about the ROM? Yeah, the ROM is directly connected to the BMC. It's not connected to the to the PCH traditionally The the spy flash which Contained the ROM can be connected to the the PCH. That's not a technical choice that we made Just wanted to add that there's some really good security benefits to that too. Yeah, there's recent bugs like there's Can't even talk about but That there are you know the system flash attached to the South Bridge made it vulnerable, you know being behind You know our ASIC made it not vulnerable and then what John Marie was talking about RAM based also has security benefits So we have two networking interfaces We We're using only one I think currently. No the the main reason why we have to is that we We might be able to share the networking interface between the host and the BMC I'm not sure if we are enabling that in any kind of for servers, but that might be the case We got a bunch of you art There are a lot of ASQC interfaces, so 10 buses We got two clock the main reason why we have two clocks is one is feeding them The core and what is feeding the USB stack? We got video support inside the ASIC so on any HP servers You might be seeing video interface available from the host That's very efficient because we also integrate a video encoder So once of sorry about that So what's inside the chip by itself? So that is the current generation. That's a traditional SOC from I Wouldn't say from arm, but from HPE. So everything is connected to an AHB bus inside the SOC You get a single Cortex-A9 CPU It's not the most powerful ARM CPUs, but that's way good enough for what we have to do at the BMC level A2 cache memory controller which support DDR3 or DDR4 as I said a single chip We have an interrupt controller and a PCI IP block which does contain a few higher subsystems including the PT interfaces for the Intel CPUs We have the ESPY and LPC controller, which are directly connected to the host a video IP block spy engine Something which is very specific to BMC what we can see for CPLD interfaces so As we have a lot of interface to connect to the BMC to save some pinout options from from the azix so we are connecting that the azix to I would say specific FPGA. I don't know if I can say that CPLD is an FPGA but I hope people are not going to tell me about saying that but A CPLD is roughly an FPGA which is gathering all the iOS subsystems from From a complex architecture and serialize that to another component Reducing the number of pins that you need and this is another abstraction layers between the the host and and the BMC chip and the azix by itself It has a high level of importance because when we port Linux to the To this kind of technical architecture We need to take care about that connectivity and it's pretty uncommon within the Linux space currently there is no abstraction layer within the Linux kernel regarding CPLD interfaces and We need to address that because each time we are pushing for patches and we try to upstream that We got some pushback from the community turning us. Hey, what is that? What is it doing? So we do not really understand the the block diagram or what you are intending to do here and That's also why we we decided to participate to this kind of conferencing and trying to disclose more how the PMC works And why we need to to get this kind of code integrated Yeah Looks like we're going to take question during the session instead of the end That's fine five minutes hoops Are you gonna expose any of the you art or spy headers so that the customer can add some sensors anything like that since you're having an open VMC anyways currently no the main reason is that We We are driven by cost in some way because our customer are expecting us to deliver down a cost-optimized solution and Security so we we try to we try to avoid to expose everything which could I would say Break up the system so that's also why we developed the the CI tools because you really can hack the system through the CI tools I would say this is more a developer environment that you are looking for in that case and And and that's that's something that we do at our level and we can share specific systems on the case-by-case basis But that's not what we are intending to do on the production machine So just quick emphasis on the CPID interfaces. So that's a proprietary bus It's self-training. So that's easy to implement because everything is done in hardware just a few parameters at the software level The Peaky platform is also something specific to BMC in some way because we are retrieving a critical data from the CPU Just to know what is the current thermal temperatures and voltage and and so on and we need to take decision based on on these data Our CPIDs is mainly focused on GPIO management and fan status and generating the right PWM Signals to handle the fans Let me you say it four minutes. Okay, let me jump on that one I think it's important to understand how a BMC is is set up So there are register banks which are used to configure the SOC by itself This is everything that you can see on the left hand side of the slide So the slide is going to be public you would be able to look at it But if you read the drivers that we publish as a proof of concept within the Udette Packard GitHub organization you would be seeing some this address space being used by all the different drivers So like that you can have a better sense of why we are jumping from that memory space to another one We also have direct access to the host registers. So two main reasons for that the first one is debugging capability when something goes wrong on the host and The second one is setting up the BMC properly. So, how do we know? The UART speed which has been set up within the ROM. So that might be different ways So either we read the host registers or we we have a direct pass to communicate with the ROM and getting that parameter back to the BMC So this is all this kind of hint that we need to implement and that is why the register bank is Splitted is split between three aria. So the the SOC by itself the host registers and the CP and D So the CP and D aria is dedicated at fan management and getting status through GPIO and When you will be reading some of our device drivers, you will be seeing that we need to map Three different regions within the device tree description I know that some people are really Not upset about that Surprised about this kind of approach for an SOC But the challenge is really that we we really wanted to Help the software engineers to really understand that when they are accessing one specific memory regions They are accessing either the SOC the host or the CP and D avoiding to create bugs if we had only a common Memory region that's the way it's implemented on HP platform And I think we are not going to change that tomorrow But that's that's really important to understand that So where do we stand regarding the Linux port? I like to congratulate Nick by the way so we got our first patches which have been approved into the Linux kernel and And it's working you can do the GXP asic on the CI You do not have any kind of device drivers, which are available from the Linux kernel yet So you still need to use the fork that we have But we got the basic which works the serial memory controllers The flash access and the club drivers The watchdog or so What are the challenge that we faced first of all for many of us? This is the first time we upstream into the Linux kernel So we didn't form the right how-to or it was hedging so we got a lot of pushback or good feedbacks from the community around The patches quality that we supplied the good news is we learned also that we need to provide Documentations and we were not aware about that so we were just excited that providing code instead of providing the documentation with the infrastructure But we got the older feedback and now I think we are we're in a good shape at upstreaming all the drivers and that's that's the really key things and that's really our intent and the next step is really to Accelerate around driver upstreaming so you can help us in some way because the proof of concept drivers are all available In in the open world and we need to transform that from a proof of concept to something Which can be accepted into the Linux kernel so that might be a good way for you to start learning how the GXP asic works or helping us This is my last lines How can you get involved if you want to help us? So this is the small team who is working on open BMC including Lewis and some of the team member couldn't be there during the picture So we are probably lacking half of the team on that pictures but if you want to help us you can review the code that we have within the unit background GitHub repo and Help us to upstreaming it give us feedback and if you need more Technical information or you have question we created specifically mailing list where you can send emails and this is just going to Come into my mailbox perhaps Nick Perhaps Lewis so but you have direct contact with our engineering team and you you would be able to To get answers. I'm not promising that we can answer to everything because that's The open source world is a little bit new to us. So we cannot disclose everything about what we do inside the company but That's our intent is to collaborate and I'm done because otherwise the lady at the back is going to kill me. I'm just kidding I we don't have time for a question. Sorry about that. Thank you


Hey, everyone. It's Sam here. Sometimes your users will leave your page, but what if they're still in the middle of an operation, like submitting a form or uploading a file? In this episode, I'm going to show you the standard way to warn a user that they're closing your page. Let's begin. [? BAM, BAM, BAM, BAM, BAM. ?] When a user closes your page or follows a link to a different page, which is kind of like closing your page, your JavaScript has a chance to intercept this and warn your user via the before-unload event. Let's take a look. So here is the simplest example. We can add a listener in the before-unload event and return a message. You have to give a message, because old browsers will display it verbatim. But newer browsers will actually override this to a very generic one about, changes may not be saved. Either way, this will prompt the user, are you sure you want to close me? But we know that a page which always warns you it's going to be closed is going to be incredibly frustrating for your users. So you should add a condition to only pop up the dialogue when you might lose some data, like a network request is still in transit or a form is unsubmitted. What I suggest is to use unfinished promises. For example, every time you do a network fetch, you get back a promise, like this. We can write a method which adds that promise to a set of pending operations. If anything is in that set, we still have operations we're waiting for, so we can make sure to block the page from unloading. Then we add a method to the promise for when it's done, which removes it from the set. The same set could control the display of a busy spinner. This is a really neat way to remind your users that something is working, and that they'll learn that closing your page during that time will prompt them to wait. I also want to cover a special case. Modern browsers have a method called send beacon, which lets you send a network request without waiting for a response. You fire the request and forget about it. It's really useful for analytics events, and if it suits your needs, you won't need to block your users until it completes. It's actually designed to run even after a page is closed. Be sure to check out the extended article where we explain this topic in a bit more depth, and we have some code snippets for you to use. So remember, use the before and load event to prompt the user. Use a set to keep track of unfinished business on your page, and use send beacon for fire and forget network requests. That was unloading the page the standard way. See you on the next tip. I've got my processor off. It's very important.


I believe we're about ready to start here. First of all, do any of our panelists have any suggestions? Questions? Should I wait for the questions? I have a question for Dr. Callahan. A real Nobelist in economics, Robert Solow once quipped, if you're traveling from Boston to Los Angeles, the first thing you need to know is head west. Let me be, you have said that you are object or find flawed the underlying ethos of unlimited technological advance. But I'd like to go back to Boston and just go to the beginning of the trip. There is research now going on to find effective treatments for different forms of cancer. We are reportedly reasonably close to finding a cure for Alzheimer's disease. There have been spectacular advances in the last half century in the treatment of coronary disease. One could go on and on. We can now do organ transplants, joint transplants of various kinds. We're investigating a lot now to make further advances. Which of those would you stop? Cancer, you would not try to find a cure for cancer. No, I would reduce the amount of research money put into the search for a cure for cancer and transfer it to Alzheimer's or other conditions. Because it's mainly, it's a disease that kills mainly the elderly and I would say for just that reason you can devote less money to it than diseases that affect other age groups. Let me pursue that a bit. Let me, for the sake of arguments, say I agree with you on the allocation. The reallocation, I presume, is to achieve a more effective and more rapid advance of medical technology, not to abandon the principle of it. If one is in favor of research for specific diseases that would find cures or ways of forestalling them, why don't we just let it go at that and see what we can do. And if at some point, 50, 75 years from now, we reach some frontier that is problematic, we can reconsider it at that point. Well, I think we have reached that frontier now because we will not be able to control our health care costs and deliver good health care to people unless we decide we have reached the frontier or we're pretty close to it. And in the very nature of medical progress, there will always be a frontier, right? I mean, it seems to me every year with testimony of the National Institutes of Health that this is, we have more, greatest prospects ever before. That's a standard line. And I have no doubt, first of all, that if we even cure the diseases you mentioned, that others will take their place, that if everybody's living to 100 years, the doctor's offices will still be filled and people will be complaining and saying we need more research. I'm saying at some point, what do you do when you have infinite possibilities? One of the analogies I didn't use in my talk was the exploration of outer space. The pursuit of better health is like the exploration of outer space. However far you go, there's always further you can go. And I'm saying that we now begin to see some of the economic limits of going that way. We may have to actually begin rationing research money, and we may have to ration care of things we know will work. To me, the problem is the great problem with cost is the stuff that really is effective, not the things that don't work, and we're getting better and better. And we may not find a cure for cancer, but we're surely going to find more and more expensive ways to treat the cancer. And of course, we see right now you're getting very expensive cures or ways of ameliorating cancer, but it doesn't cure it, and that's likely to continue for a while. I'm saying at some point, yeah, we're always going to have to make a sacrifice of some further benefit, but maybe now is the time to begin thinking of doing that. Well, then on the recent history of the past couple of years should be terrific news. Flatlining of the NIH budget has resulted in a reduction in the proportion of grant applications approved by more than half and a reduction in the number of continuation grants approved by more than a third. We're well on our way under current policies to choking off. Well, that's about the first budget reduction in like 40 years of that program. It had a golden life, and the fact that now the real world is catching up to it. No, no, no, the application rate is lower than it has been in decades. Dr. Osterholm. Well, first of all, I wanted to thank Dr. Callahan for what I thought was a very clear and concise discussion of the issues. One additional piece that I would add is I worry desperately that we are a rudderless ship in this discussion. We continue to bring up the term death.   That is not a singular term.  They're different cancers. They're different illnesses in the sense that I wish Dr. Bishop was here. He could talk to that degree about what do you research on. You know, if I'm 82 and diagnosed with prostate cancer, I may tell you to leave it alone and I'll die with it, but it'll be not what I die from. And so part of the problem is we've had a hard time distinguishing within what it is we die from. If I were to die at age 75 while scuba diving off the Cayman Islands and I'm down at 120 feet and all of a sudden I go and they bring out a smile on my face, is that worse than if I died 85 additional years while I've been in a nursing home bed tied to that bed to protect myself from myself for the last two years? And I think that one of the issues we haven't dealt with is death is inevitable. So therefore, what should we deal with? One of the things, Dan, I just want to ask you to comment on, you know, we've tried moving much more away from death to disability-adjusted life years. The idea that there are lots of conditions out there we should be doing research for, but that in fact, you know, living 20 years in agony, pain, and total disability, is that better than me dying from my Cayman Island heart attack because in fact I would be considered a failure from a cardiology standpoint if I died scuba diving at 75. How can we start to bring some measure to this as beyond just the very crude measure of death? Well, I would say we really need a serious discussion about priority setting and research, not only in research, but in health care delivery. And one of the advantages of a universal health care system is they force you to set some priorities because you have a limited budget you have to work with. We don't, and hence it's very hard to have priorities. National Institutes of Health in the late 90s had some discussions about setting priorities, not, didn't get very far I think, but they tried. So I would start there, and I guess I would put it to you and this isn't a challenge, just a question. If we have a budget that did not expand and we had to do support more of the things that you were talking about today, where would you cut the money from? And I think that in fact that's a very real point and we need to, first of all, we have got to get world population under control. That is going to drive many of our health issues. And, you know, I said earlier, you know, basically I think investing what you said in some of the high cancer cost research areas or some of the other areas out there, you know, I think it's in the basic sanitation, some of those things, I'd definitely move that. I think the other areas is I would look at those diseases, again, which are disability causing and death combined, versus just death. And then I would even look at death, it's not simple enough to have 10 top 10 causes of death because they're so different. Finally, I think the last piece I would do is I would examine really what we're trying to do in the area of medicine. And I come from the University of Minnesota and as being outspoken, I'm sure I'll hear about this when I get back to my campus. But we're one of the problems. Because on one hand we're talking about affordable health care, we try to educate our physicians, on the other hand we love high tech medicine. We do all the research we can and bring in all the dollars we can. Those are inconsistent. We have to acknowledge at some point they are. I think that part of it is just changing the mindset to even have this discussion, which I know you've done. But then it's from that discussion, what are we really trying to measure? What are we trying to do? I mean, that's why I press for... Let's decide what are the real fundamentals below. What are the values instead of trying to think, well, we'll keep the present. We won't look at the values, but we can just do it all more efficiently. Well, that's the dead end. Dr. West? I guess you've made an assertion that we're healthier now than we ever have been. And yet, when I look at the world, I see increasing rates of type 2 diabetes, even in young children. Dramatic increases in diabetes. I don't see America being in a healthier state now. And so I just challenged that assertion. I wonder what facts and data you've based that on. Well, I've certainly based life expectancy, that's the fundamental one right there. Not all of which can be attributed to medical care. There's been a great deal of talk in recent years about actually, maybe it's been the elderly, primarily, but a decline in disability. So there are some things of that sort. And in many recent years, hasn't the U.S. life expectancy slightly dropped? I don't believe it has. I think it's... I think actually both of you are right. It's a situation where it's where we're at in time. Dr. Callahan is right. And life expectancy in many areas of the world where HIV doesn't exist in its hyper-indemic form, life expectancies can do increase. But we're like a car crash where we basically have just had the initial impact and the head's not gone through the windshield yet. So we're in that time period right now. With the obesity issues you just talked about, and with the behavior issues right now, the life expectancy we believe in the next 20 years is going to precipitously drop in a number of areas. And in the United States, I mean we're on a collision course with Destiny right now between the baby boomers which are going to push on the top side and the obesity epidemic and the issues we now see on the bottom side, we're going to see incredible health care costs start to develop that we haven't yet accounted for. So you're right right now. You're right 10, 15 years from now. And I don't think those have anything to do with technology. I think those are the things we face in the aging of our population and the health care issues we're going to face with the obesity. I don't know the figures. It would be interesting to compare the amount of money doing medical research on diabetes over against research to reduce obesity. That would be because I think I consider obesity a public health problem. Whereas the emphasis we're going to find cures for these diseases. And I'll bet the money spent on the medical money is more than the prevention money. I don't know. There's a question from the audience. What is going to be the tipping point in health care that will cause politicians to invest in universal health care? Oh guys, that's the question that's been asked for years. I guess my assumption is that middle class people previously well covered begin to feel the pain. And that may be approaching as more companies reduce health care benefits or cut programs and bankruptcy figures I've mentioned are very striking. That's a very reality in people's lives. On the other hand, there's still the anti-tax sentiment in this country. There are lots of and the medical profession is going to have mixed feelings about universal health care and the conservatives would hate the idea so I could take it. Can I ask Dr. Irwin a question about that for five minutes? I think Dr. Callahan just laid out. We hear consistently from the private sector that health care costs even as they pass it through to their workers still the residual that they have to pick up is basically causing us to become less and less a player in the global just in time economy because many other countries don't put that burden directly on the private sector. So that in fact is that what's going to drive us ultimately is our lack of competitiveness. Not that we won't pay it, it's just how we are going to pay it. And does the private sector increase cost issues cause concern that will mean that's what will be the tipping point? First of fact the proportion of total health care spending covered by third party payment that is to say by private insurance or government programs is almost constant means about out of pocket payments are genuine they are going up they're going up because total health care spending is going up and a portion of that is falling on individuals and people react to that. But we're not sort of becoming uninsured as a nation in any aggregate or perceptible way. Now as for competitiveness here there are some things that economists believe they believe down to their shoes nobody else does I'm reminded of the old quip that there was a movement in the United States in favor of what was called metropolitan government cities and all the surrounding here everybody was for them for that except the cities and the suburbs. Well when it comes to the issue of competitiveness economists almost to a person believe that rising health care spending is not a significant component of the competitiveness of U.S. firms abroad. Why is that? Not instantly, not smoothly not completely evenly if health care costs go up either wage growth slows or some other fringe benefit growth slows the total compensation of workers as a share of total output would go up if health care costs were driving the total amount paid to workers but it isn't in fact total payments to workers have been flat to trending down a slight bit in recent years. Workers are getting as a share of total what economists call the total value of production a somewhat smaller share of the total pie than has been true in the recent past. Well that means there are offsets going on here there are some big exceptions to what I just said if you're an old company like General Motors Ford, U.S. Steel, Alcoa and you have a big retired workforce to whom huge promises have been made that's a liability of the company de facto GM is probably insolvent because of the liabilities for future health care costs that have not been recognized on the balance sheet that certainly affects their ability to borrow funds to invest in new developing new cars and hence in their ability to compete in a mobile market but for the most part accepting those old rust belt companies with large what are called legacy costs rising health care spending simply means you have less of your total compensation left over to take home and spend on things other than health care and hence it doesn't to a significant degree affect international competitiveness of U.S. companies now I say that U.S. Congress believes that I don't think you could find anybody representing organized labor or business in the United States who would say right on Henry you've got it right they would disagree almost unanimously I have a question here from I would guess that this must be a position please name one specific medical advance such as defibrillators by-class surgery or another device of treatment that adds to medical cost of efficacy give me the list I'm sorry efficacy the thing is something we can have an economic crisis of something that is efficacious and to me that's the real problem that's what I mentioned with the evidence-based medicine we are turning up things that the cost seems to be absolutely worth it this is a question I have for economists many economists seem to say if the cost and the benefits balance and it's a good buy and say well maybe you can't afford it the cost and benefits of a Rolls Royce that balances pretty well too but most of us can't afford a Rolls Royce and it seems to me the question is it may well be that there are things that are de-beneficial but are so expensive that they create fits of another time but in your talk you specifically said that there are unproven technology well that's very general but I'm saying something that's been in healthcare for a long time there are plenty of them out there there isn't a technology you can think of including the ones mentioned that isn't beneficial for somebody and isn't used in other situations where the benefits are negligible we as individuals pay very little when we're seriously ill for the cost of that technology so if it helps give it to me that's my incentive it's my physician's incentive but the technology in my view is not that it's advancing but that we use it indiscriminately we don't use it predominantly overwhelmingly in cases where benefits are demonstrable we use it to a most technologies we overuse them in a large number of cases where the benefits are negligible if you get me going I can tend you to a couple of personal anecdotes that reinforce that the European experience indicates that they do have less available technology but in fact their health they get equally good or better health outcomes that certainly supports your position one more question here does the Oregon method of delivery of healthcare does this fit your vision for healthcare or is there any other particular model that seems to attract your attention well the Oregon I have not been able to really find it in recent years I've gathered it's more or less fallen apart they've had all sorts of economic problems out there I think in theory it was a great thing there were complaints it was devoted aiming at Medicaid and thus going to get the poor but the point is it was a closed system the only way you can set priorities is that you have a system that's lived within a budget so I thought it was a good experiment now apparently it fell apart is there a particular system that you find is a positive here a number of countries I would say there are 10 or 12 countries around the world that have tried to set priorities at least for healthcare delivery and they've developed nice reports and everything else and what's very interesting is in no case has the government accepted the recommendations and I decided because this is a notion of politics most politicians and legislators are not waiting around for some elegant formal academically driven ideas they like the early bird of politics and that's why the National Institutes of Health they talked about setting priorities but in fact in the end it was kind of a black box what they did and it was not clear how they finally decided what went to cancer what went to heart well I think we've gone about a half an hour here I'd like to have us all stand and give a last round of applause here for our speakers today thank you for a very enlightening day we'll begin tomorrow