I mentioned CEO 21 Studios and CEO of the Red Man Group. Today's host of the Red Man Group episode 82 on Marriage and Family for the Red Pill Men. On the show with me today I have Ken Curry, a licensed family and marriage therapist. He was a workshop speaker at our fatherhood event earlier this year, the 21 convention. I got Steve the Dean, Williams as always from manmindset.com. Noah Ravoy, he's our relationship coach for men and women as well I believe. And he was a Poland speaker or speaker at our convention in Poland we had a few weeks ago. And of course, DDJ from missandrytoday.com and YouTube at missandrytoday, he's a workshop speaker at the upcoming event, our final of the decade and Orlando, Florida is October 24th to 27th. Gentlemen, thanks for joining me today. Yeah, good to be here. Absolutely. So I wanted to focus this episode, we could go through actually, let's go through a little, you know we had a traditional panel for a while and kind of dropped it temporarily, but let's go through what you guys have new going on in your life with your work, like a quick two minute kind of stint. Ken, what do you have going on other than elk hunting with a bow soon? That's right, that'll be next week. I'll be taking a week off with my son, the bow hunt. I shoot a long bow, which is even more difficult than a compound, but I absolutely love getting out in the wilderness. It's a hunting, I don't necessarily do a lot of killing, but it's just great getting out there and moving around. So that'll be next week, it's a lot of fun.  What's that?  Oh yeah, that's some of the best meat on the planet. That's some good stuff. Yeah, so let's see, personally, just for this event with the marriage and family, I want you guys to know I just had, well month or two ago, I had my 35th marriage wedding anniversary. So I've been married 35 years. I'm a marriage and family therapist in Colorado, and I've been doing that for about 12 years now. It's kind of the latest iteration of my career. And let's see, oh, I'm starting to actually work a little bit more on my website, getting prepared for the 21 convention here in October. And it says on my thing there, solidman.org, but I recently purchased solidman.com, so I'm gonna start building that a little bit, a little more of an online presence. And so that's a big thing that's been going on with me. So yeah, Steve, what you got going on, man? You had the red line last night, right? Yeah, that got the red line holding down while Donovan's on hiatus. Also got to show the red pill mindset on Mondays and kicking out on Tuesday. So just kicking it going forward, eyes forward, and preparing for October, brother. Nice. Noah, welcome back to the show, man. It's been a few weeks. It's my pleasure to be here. Yeah, I just finished taking my agency course, turning it into a textbook. And I have about a dozen coaches around the world that wanna start using that to teach men agency in their own practices. So the books at the editor right now we're working on, it's written big brain and we need to make it medium brain so it can fit the vast majority of the population, simplify some language and stuff like that. And make it so that it's, I think this is going to change the world. I say that male agency is going to save Western civilization and that only works if I can project that out to a lot more men, much more than I can possibly train on my own. And so this is step one of doing that is getting that out to the public. And within the next few weeks, I'm gonna be father to two twin boys, my wife's pregnant. And so far it's all going good and I'll probably disappear for a couple of weeks after that though. I thought this came out recently so I thought you were super busy with that. I was like, maybe that's why. But yeah, that's not so good. I'm trying to get everything prepared for it. The smart thing is, is prepare for the storm before it comes. And I wanna have it so nice and chill and peaceful. Everything is organized and everything's in its place. So you gotta reduce the anxiety and it's a super pleasurable experience to have babies come home. If you're disorganized, children will amplify whatever is happening in your life.  If you're a mess, kids will make you more of a mess. And so you gotta get your stuff together before they show up.  What's wrong with you, Noah? Yeah, and men having some responsibility for their infant children, what's with that? You know, humans, we gotta make the nest as well. We're not like one of those birds where the woman does everything. We gotta help make the nest. Now, she's gonna bear the main burden of this. And this is something like people forget.  No, no, you've got two twin kids coming home from the hospital. You gotta be 110 and she's put in 110 to the kids. And there will be a little period where you have to sacrifice. That's the way it is. But man, I got another kid too. He's just turned six. And it is the most satisfying thing I've ever done in my life is to have, we have once in a while these breakthrough conversations where I get to really see the man is developing behind there, behind his kid, kid-ness. And it is, I would not sacrifice anything for that. That was amazing. Every sleepless night was worth it. Nice. DDJ, welcome back to the show, of course. What's going on, man? I hear you have some big news with your lawsuit. Yeah, but before I get into that, let me talk real quick. I'm getting my Facebook group set back up. So my Facebook page at the Real Miss Andrew today on Facebook is up now. Obviously, I'm rebuilding my Twitter with the new Twitter ID. So that's been kind of interesting. Obviously, any love anybody wants to send to those sites would be great. There will be a link in the video description of Facebook group and stuff, 100%. Yeah, yeah. And then as far as the lawsuit is concerned, for those who don't know, I'm suing Google and YouTube for foreign interference, for violation free speech, unconscionable contract, and I'm challenging section 230 of the Communications Decency Act as unconstitutional. And so Google's attorney after the press releases went out, a day after the press releases went out, Google's attorney finally contacted us and we're moving forward there. So I mean, they've initiated contact and now we're in the conversation stage. We've got a court hearing coming up in November that basically we're gonna be doing. It's kind of a scheduling procedural hearing. It's not anything of substance, but we may end up putting up an additional hearing to deal with some preliminary things before we get started. I'll give you guys more news on that if and when that comes to fruition. Nice. And you filed this in Colorado too, yeah? Yeah, I filed it in federal court in Denver, Colorado. It's Lewis v. Google at all. Pacer has it on pacermonitor.com and Justia has it listed. There's a few other places. It's a 500 page lawsuit in total. So for most people, it's probably the biggest lawsuit they've ever seen, but we wanted to make sure we had a bunch of information included in the lawsuit so that the court knows that our lawsuit is based on facts. It's not just based on conclusions, devoid of facts. And obviously you've been trying to avoid two of the mistakes that other companies have made or other institutions trying to sue Google like PragerU and stuff like that where they get thrown out or something like that. Right, well, before we filed the lawsuit, I mean, there was probably about a year to 18 months of research involved when we looked at all these different lawsuits and we looked at, like you say, we look at Prager, we looked at Laura Loomer's suit, we looked at Tulsi Gabbard's suit and a few others. And one of the things we noticed about many of those suits is is that while they're going after a private company for things like civil rights, they don't actually have the required element of being a government actor included in their lawsuit. And that's what we've perceived as a defect and it's something that we have changed. So we've said, look, under civil rights law under 42 USC 1983, there's no definition for government actor, which means that you can use Black's Law Dictionary or the plain English version of what that word means. Well, in this case, that means that if the courts go for it that we can use foreign governments as government actors and we have absolute evidence that Google is working with China, that Google is working with the European Union to enforce their hate speech laws on American citizens residing on American soil. And that's our nexus, that's the nexus that we're able to draw and that's the argument we're pushing forward. And we don't expect like many of the suits because of who Google is and because of who YouTube is, we don't actually expect a lot of things going in our favor at the trial court level. So like I always tell people, whenever you go to court, you prepare for your appeal on day one. So that's what we've done. We have prepared for the appeal, we expect it to go to the 10th Circuit Court of Appeals and possibly the United States Supreme Court. And we've also for people that want to assist in this because this helps everybody, right? YouTube controls free speech on video, Google controls free speech on all its platforms. And so there's a lot of things that go out there as far as what ends up like everybody being silenced. I think last quarter they shut down 15,000 channels and like hundreds of thousands of videos. Every quarter they do this, they censor voices in most of these voices are Americans. And so if this lawsuit succeeds, this benefits everybody.  I know you had the PR stuff going on and I've been trying to share it. We did an interview of course on it too. It's on Red Man Group and 21. Yep. With that said, let's get into today's topic, marriage and family for the Red Pill Man. So in the Red Pill community as part of the man's sphere, marriages look down on, in my opinion, very frequently. And it's not just the Red Pill community, it's like Pick A Partist community and everything else. McTowell being notorious for this too, I think. And it's so looked down upon. And it was fascinating to me when I found the Red Pill community the subreddit of a couple hundred thousand men, that marriage was a small topic on there but it seemed to be so derided in my opinion and had its own subreddit that was not even directly affiliated or controlled by the main one. It kind of like quarantined off and everything to discuss it. And so I guess my opening question to the panel is, is can you be a Red Pill aware man today? Can you be a man focused on truth and reality and still go out into the world and actually intentionally get married and try to build a family? Like is that even a good idea or is it just super risky and not worth it? Because in a lot of ways, that seems to be what the thrust, the underlying thrust of what many in this space like to say, they look down on so harshly and not without, you know, it's not just hot air. There's reasons that these, you know, they're saying these things and it's not just made up nonsense. And that would be things like, and we'll get into that I think with DDJ, but the risks, the legal risks associated with marriage today. So I wanna open up to the panel what you guys think about that. Anthony, can you answer a question for me that's just a whole idea of, just give me a quick synopsis of what is a Red Pill man? Sure. In my opinion, a Red Pill where a man would be a man who is focused on truth and reality in spite of an entire culture and society that is dedicated to concealing that from you. It doesn't want you to know that the ones you to follow Blue Pill lies, but that would be, I like to call those like feminist lies too. Emasculating feminine things that young men are raised with and even women too. In their case, it would be more masculinizing. The strong independent woman mantra that you see on Instagram thousands and millions of times a day. Things that are depolarizing and against your own nature, your own biological nature and evolutionary nature as a man or even as a woman from their perspective. So a Red Pill where a man is someone who is fiercely focused on truth and reality and seeing through the lies that they were told today and that they're raised with. And that I think would apply especially to millennial and Gen Z young men today because they were raised for the first time in American history after multiple generations of feminism. Older generations like Gen X and Boomers didn't quite have that, it was still kind of forming into the nightmare that we see today where even legal principles, basic legal principles like innocent, ill-proven, guilty are barely survived in the U.S. Senate like in like a 2018 with the Breck Avenue hearings. So does that make sense? Yeah, totally. Yeah, no, I actually like to think of it as a Red Pill man as a man who is obviously very aware and desiring to pursue truth. And a big part of this is becoming, I call it being an internally referenced man where I'm listening to my heart, I'm listening to my soul, the wisdom that's created within my own being and there's a lot there. It's pretty powerful. And if I'm externally referenced, I'm listening to all the narratives and stories that are being told about who I am, about who men are, about what marriage is, about anything outside of me and living to live up to their expectations, living to please people, living to make sure everybody else is happy. And an internally referenced man is that is where you're describing the Red Pill man who's aware, self-aware, knowing the true narrative of his own life. And so that whole idea of being able to move into what is right for me, what is good for me. And for me, like I said, I've been married 35 years. I've got three adult children. And to Noah's point earlier, it's absolutely been the most profound thing in my life. I don't know what, I don't know who I'd be or what I'd be without those experiences.   You could have had all these wild, you could have done so many other things. So I'd like to get into this more on the show, but you had options of how to live your life. Absolutely, absolutely. But I think, gosh, I know everybody here hasn't seen it, but Elliot's dad at the patriarch thing, when he stood up and just said, family is everything. I mean, it's his opinion, obviously, it's mine as well. It's something that family, raising a family, having a family, the whole, the meaning behind it is so incredibly powerful and significant. And what it does is that my life is not just about me. It's not just about me getting laid or me having fun or me this, it's about me creating a legacy. It's about me having an impact in the universe is so much more powerful than just having fun or having sex. Well, I always say that if you wanna have, yeah, I forgot a lot of things to say on this. If you wanna be married, then this is the pathway.  But if you don't wanna get, if you don't wanna have a family, there's no reason to be married at all, period. I mean, that's how I feel about that. But all of this to me is, yes, it's about family, but it's more about your name and what it represents. And again, all the stuff about the government and the family court, that is 1000% true. But with that being said, it's none of my business because it has nothing to do with me as a man. See, the problem is you gotta look at it as community versus cult. Now, we are together, and I talked about it yesterday, us coming together, we are a community. We are all independent thinkers. We come together, we talk, we break camp, and then we go about our lives as men as individuals. What we're dealing with here, we got a lot of cults out there, and I know DDJ is metal, but he's not all metals, but there are guys, there are people out there that are called cults that scare young boys in the thinking that marriages are bad, relationships are bad because they were not man enough to handle the woman. So what they do is they spew their poison into the community to these young men, and then these young men get these impressions that wow, all women are bad. Well, even if she's bad, it's still none of my business because what she does to you has nothing to do with, I'm gonna allow her keyword, allow her to do to me. For me, and I talked about it, it started to me, all this stuff, these guys got smart.  And what a lot of these guys have done is they have taken that same narrative and then they have brought it over to the 21st century to scare young men to say marriage is terrible. If you get married, the government's gonna get you, and family courts will get you. Yes, that's true on the back end, but what they don't tell you on the front end is where is your self, where's your definition of yourself? Where is your self-awareness? What is your mission statement? Do you have a vision statement? Do you have a value statement? None of these guys have that because, see what the cults do is that they feed on these young boys who are looking to be a part of something. I don't want people to be a cult.  Yes, women are terrible. Yes, women can do bad things to you, but at the end of the day is this. Are you going to allow her to do that? And that's the problem with a lot of guys. They don't take responsibility for allowing, keyword allow. A woman can't do anything to you that you don't allow her to do, and it starts when y'all first begin to meet, you first begin to date, and you first get in a relationship.  If you fix yourself and become more of a community and stop following these cult leaders who can't even get a woman if a woman is in front of their face, then they would be much better.  Yeah, that would be great. Great. Can you imagine, can you imagine our ancestors saying, well, you know, hunting woolly mammoth is really risky?   We should pick berries. We're gonna do a lot better picking berries. Just say to picking berries, just go your own way from the hunters. Pick berries and that's fine. They're doing it now. Eat grass. We'll go off with the women to pick berries or whatever. Yeah, eat the possible burger. Yeah, managing risk is what men do. That's exactly right. That's what we do, we manage risk, we tame chaos. You know, if we can't manage a woman and tame her and tame ourselves, mostly we need to tame ourselves. If we can't do that, I mean, then it makes a lot of sense. Go your own way, if you can't do it. There are men who go their own way because they have other goals. Yeah. But there are men who go their own way because they're afraid. And that is not, that is not a masculine thing. You know, if I, if I was, if I was a young single guy, I would probably be more or less made town until I got myself to a level where I could get a woman that I could trust. Yeah. I think that makes a lot of sense. Yep, it does. But making major life decisions driven by fear, that's not masculine. Say it again, Noah. Making major life decisions driven by fear is not masculine. That's right.  The fear can be legitimate. But the fear is there to instruct you that there's danger. Then you need to overcome the fear and manage that danger, manage that risk. You know, people say, the biggest thing people say to me is divorce is like 50, 50 chance of failure. And I'm like, no, no. It's zero chance of failure, 100 chance of failure. And the average between the two of us is 50, 50. Now I can help you lower that chance to near zero. There are things you can do to lower your chance of getting divorced to pretty near zero. And there are things you can do to pretty much guarantee you're gonna get divorced. Yeah. It's not flipping a coin. It's not random chance. Hunting the woolly mammoth was not random chance.  So no, on the issue of fear, you're saying that fear should be informative and not dictatorial for your actions. Control it. Yeah. Yeah. Did the fear anxiety stress, all of these so-called negative emotions, they exist for an evolutionarily positive reason. We get those to tell us anxiety, something's wrong in your life and you need to fix anxiety here on the system. It's just one chronic and one is acute. I don't know if you guys have ever dealt with dangerous people.    My issue with red flag seems to be when I see them, I don't run away from them. I tend to light them on fire. So.  Well, let me jump in here. You're a leader in the hemisphere because you want to go and fix things and make things better. Yep. And that is really good. But look at Donald Trump. How many wives he's had. Okay. The leader, he needs a few guys around him to say, you can't manage that woman the way you can manage your business, the way you can manage your country because it's a different situation. And that helped that community that was being mentioned earlier by Steve. Well, let me jump in here. Go ahead. Because, I mean, what you guys are talking about is not actually the majority of that community. And what I mean by that is is that there is a very vocal group of YouTubers online who identify as MiG-Tau, but they're not. And they do everything Steve has said. They do create a cult of personality. And when you watch their videos, their videos oftentimes, especially their live streams, they don't turn into any kind of lessons.  You ever watch a TEDx talk? There's no solutions on TEDx talk. It's feelings, it's emotions, and it's just, I said a bunch of platitudes clap for me. And that's what a lot of, and you see this not just in the stated MiG-Tau community. And I believe there's a difference between the stated MiG-Tau community and the unstated MiG-Tau community. And there are guys who they go MiG-Tau for a while like what Noah said, and then they turn around later and they say, okay, now it's time for me to get married. I did and I learned the lessons. I learned to mitigate risk. I learned to see what the field looks like. And now, I know where to avoid the holes and the pits and things like that. I think I can take that chance now. But I think that the other side of it is, is that when we talk about a lot of the people that follow this, then yeah, the fear can become irrational and it can become extreme and it can become an issue. But I think there's a flip side of that as well. And the flip side of that is, is that, feminism has been destroying the family since the 1960s. And so we have a half a century or more, more than a half century now, of broken families. And I believe that, myself included, I believe that when you destroy a family, it impacts that family for generations.  That daughter raises another daughter who's divorced. And now you have three generations of divorced women because they don't know how to have a relationship. And I agree with Noah that there are things as a man that you can do to mitigate risk in your marriage. But I also believe that the reality is, is at the end of the day, if the female wants to leave you and that divorce does happen, you know, you're done. I spoke to a guy yesterday, okay? He's got a, what's going on, Steve? I know, right? What do you got, Steve?  I want to, I want to, I want to hear what you're saying, but so what if she, so if she wants to leave? Well, hear me out, hear me out. All right, I'm gonna go say it when you finish. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I get it. I get it. And I know we disagree on this. And I- Oh yeah, no, I'll say something like this. Go ahead. This guy, his divorce was amicable. He did not get divorce rate. But they were trying to sell a house and the house didn't get solved in the divorce. And so because the house didn't get solved in the divorce, he went to an attorney later and he says, I don't understand, you know, how this happened, this was an oversight. It was malpractice on the attorney's fault and the attorney didn't care. And nobody really cared. And so this guy ended up losing hundreds of thousands of dollars in his house because the professional that he chose was not willing to litigate for him. And I'm not blaming feminism for that per se, but there are a lot of situations where a guy will go into a family court situation and the attorney will say one thing behind the scenes. And then when you finally get in front of the judge, he pulls his pants around his ankles and screams, give it to me. So, you know, I just, I see this and I'm like, okay, so that's the issue. Now, I will say this, you know, yeah, I am a man going my own way, but in chapter three of my book, The Feminist's Lie, I compare and contrast biological intact families where the children are raised with Christian values. I contrast that with the single parent families created by feminism. And you look at it from a societal level and you realize that families are what make communities safe and what make communities prosperous. So if that's the foundation of community and that's a foundation of a county and a state and a federal government, then that's what you want to push for societal reasons because that's what makes the most sense. And you look at the areas that adopt a family adverse mindset and they adopt this. And again, some of this is the big town community and some of this is going to be the feminist community because like I said, there's been a war on men marriage and family for half a century. And but you have to be able to keep those family values to push forward. But again, it's a scenario where it's gonna be a fight at some point because when you break down the family you increase the crime rate of your community. You increase the welfare state. You increase the poverty level. People get desperate. And now all of a sudden, they people act in their own self-interest and then they start, they start carjacking and robbing and doing drugs and everything else.  You look at all these leftist cities and you can see it. You can see it in Los Angeles. You can see it in San Francisco. You can see it in Seattle and Baltimore and Chicago and Detroit. And I'm not saying that all those places are third world wastelands. That's not what I'm saying. What I am saying is that those crime rates definitely impact the cities and they create an untenable and an unsustainable situation. So as a man, you have to have personal values. You have to be able to assess risk. And I do agree with Steve when it comes to, as a man, you have to know how to choose a decent woman in order to have a good relationship. You know, I've been married twice. I've been divorced twice. And my first marriage was all my fault. It was all my fault. And I've said this before, I'll say it again. It was my fault. It was my mistake. I got married for the wrong reasons.  And that's what ended up happening. The second marriage was a different animal entirely. I chose the right woman. She was an officer in the Young Republicans Party. She was a traditionalist. She was really into family. We were together for 21 years. The last three years of our relationship, she was a abortion promoting Democrat who voted for Obama. And she did a complete 180 degree turn. And it wasn't necessarily that we didn't have family values. We went to church and we did all those other things. It was that the society we lived in was the wrong place to live. So I think that when you look at some of these places, especially some of the cities I've mentioned, in some of those cities, yeah, I would never raise a family there. Looking back on it and knowing what I know now and knowing that I'm not as ignorant as I was then, I would go to a red state and I would raise a family in a red state. I would not raise a family in a blue state. I would not raise a family in New York City or in California or in Washington state. Because for example, in North Carolina, if your girl cheats on you, you could sue the guy who she cheated with. So not all the laws and all the places are bad and you do have to learn how to mitigate risk. If I can interject for a second. I do wanna state that I've been married myself actually. I forget that sometimes it's been several years but I actually was able to exit that situation pretty well and not get sent over by any kind of core system. And yeah, that's the reason. You're only talking about community being extremely important to you. Like I'm sure that I won't get divorced because my wife and I have set it up as mutually assured destruction. If I left my wife, my male friends wouldn't speak to me anymore. If she left me, her family wouldn't speak to her. I guarantee you it would ruin her relationship with her kids. We have it set up as mutually assured destruction. Everyone that we're friends with is pro marriage and anti cheating. So that's the strong community. What I wanted to just get into real quick is that it's possible to exit a marriage today and not get, now DDJ did this twice successfully as well. He even won custody of his children I believe if I'm not misinterpreting that. And I was able to exit myself as well and not lose any kind of financial, finances or any serious problems like that. And I was not falsely accused of domestic violence or falsely accused of rape or anything like that. And I actually had protection set up in place for that because I was very concerned she would try to do that. Based on my experience after reading the men's rights community and the manuscript and stuff like that.  But Anthony, it's also possible, guys get your crayons out. I don't care if it's blue, red, green or purple state. It doesn't matter to a man and this is what I'm talking about. You know what? Sometimes the world tells y'all things and y'all don't see. There's a movie out there right now called It Chapter Two. And what that little, and it's about a clown, okay? That gets power from the fears of everybody else. All y'all are doing is scaring these people. You can get married in any state you wanna get married in, guys. You don't have to worry about feminism. Look, if you wanna worry about feminism then you need to worry about a mouse getting chased by anaconda somewhere in a damn real valley somewhere or somewhere in Mexico if that's the case. Feminism has nothing to do with you unless you put the fear and believe the stories. Yeah, DDJ told a story about a guy but let's ask the question about the guy. Did he have the values? Was he soft? Did he have a spine? And I can tell you right now, no, no, no, he didn't. You can tell he didn't because when his woman bit the gold and realized he was weak, he was soft, he didn't have any standards or values. She did what anybody would do over a weak person and that's walk all over them. See, this is what I'm talking about. Looking at the end result. Yes, it happened to him but it doesn't mean it's gonna happen to anybody watching this thing who stands on their name. And y'all- And I'm not saying that men shouldn't get married. I'm saying they should know the risk, right? I mean, we wear seat belts and cars for a reason. It's not because we're cucks. What it is is that because we know that there's risk. So you mitigate the risk. And that's what I'm saying, I agree with you. No, but I agree with you too. You have to mitigate the risk but that's the thing, DDJ. You can't mitigate something if you don't know who you are. That's what I'm saying.  Listen, again, this is why I say we're all of us right now, and I respect y'all, we're community. We are coming together, helping young men understand things. But outside of us, you've got others.  We have the rest of the little butt buddies, right?  So what he's saying has to be real. And what they're doing is getting a false sense of reality. And then here's the bad thing, they have to go out into the world. Life doesn't care about you, me, Anthony, nobody on this panel. Life doesn't care about us, it's how we navigate through life, and that's how you win. These young men are never taught to have the tools that a man needs to navigate. And that guy was saying, DDJ, no, I love you, my boy, we good. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. I don't want young men to think they can't go into a red or a blue state because I gotta dip my foot in the water before I can even see if I can get a woman. No, man, I don't care about the state. I don't care about the government. I don't care about family court because it will never get to that point with me. If you wanna go, buy. But the thing is, it's the preventative maintenance we've got to teach these boys to do in the front end.  I don't wanna love relationship. I need to know if she's worth my time first. I wanna know if she's worth my attention. Then I will fall into a respect relationship.  But they do everything wrong because they don't know any better. Steve, I've always loved your focus on the last name. I've never seen anyone else in the man's sphere focus on this. And the sperm too is funny, but it's real as well. But all the same is really, that's a, I think it's lost to my generation. I didn't grow up not hearing that kind of talk to anybody. Yeah, real quick, I was gonna say this. It's lost because think about this guys.  But because of what your great, great grandfather thought of himself and his legacy and his last name and his bloodline, his arrogance to keep his bloodline going, then this would not even be an issue. But because we're in a situation where it's community verse cult, where the cults are telling you it's bad to get married. It's bad to be with this kind of woman. It's bad to be that they're just scaring these young boys. And then with these boys do, they'll say, okay, I want a relationship. They'll go out into life and like it, like the TV, like the movie it, they see a woman and what are they doing? Giving her power based off of their fears, walking on eggshells, not standing on any principles, laws, rules, codes and narratives. So this is what the problem is, man.  That was a hell of, that was awesome.  But people are really surprised in my personal life on Facebook where there's a lot of real life friends from childhood, high school, college and things like that. They were very surprised that I was actually still supportive of marriage as a possibility in anyone's life. They thought I was just very negative against it and I was not at all. I was like, yeah, for the right reasons and the right decisions and the right choices, go ahead, you should do it, especially to build a family. And I think building a family outside of that idea, legally I'm not supportive of it at all. But in terms of the actual, the conceptual framework of it, I think it's fantastic. And I've never been opposed to that even at the most reeling anger point of my life and in response to that, that very nightmarish, screwed up bizarre scenario I had. Well, and I wanna make sure something else is abundantly clear too. Like I don't promote marriage for myself because of what I've been through because I'm not gonna assess that risk anymore. I'm just gonna, I'll date and do whatever but I'm not gonna get married. But I have had my kids. I did win custody in both divorces. So I'm not that concerned about it. And as far as men are concerned, I'm not opposed to marriage for other men but I think you gotta mitigate the risk. I mean, that's part of red man group, it's part of 21 is you gotta learn where everything is so that you know what the risk is. There's a reason why you don't do 90 miles an hour around a twisty canyon road that you're gonna fly off the side of the cliff for. So you gotta make sure that you're doing and making smart decisions. And again, you have values and commitment and you're concerned about your legacy. And yeah, if you're concerned about your legacy, absolutely get married. You're concerned about carrying on your name, absolutely get married if you do it right. But if you're not, I agree with Steve. There's no reason to get married. Well, you know, business is risky. Business is risky, four out of five businesses fail. Hey, Anthony, you know setbacks can happen and it can one minute you're high and the next minute you get a setback and the next minute you're back up again. And that isn't a reason. Like, you know, I've met guys, I met this one guy, he was in his 50s and met him when I was a kid and he's like, I had seven failed businesses before I was 40 and now I'm a millionaire. And what it was was, I mean, you can get in a lot of trouble. You go to jail for a failed business. If you've got investors, because you can be charged with fraud and end up in jail.  This, if everyone said running a business is dangerous, running a business is high risk and therefore I won't do it. We wouldn't have any businesses. This is a good analogy. What we do is we say, no, no, I'm gonna get the right partner. I'm gonna get the right lawyer. I'm gonna get the lawyer before I need the lawyer. I'm gonna get the accountant now at the beginning. I'm gonna set it up right. I'm gonna actually plan it.  It's like literally, it's like the, you know, the divine rewards to find water only. It's like their days. Like they're looking like this, wherever it points, that's really drill. And, you know, they're looking based on whatever they feel like it's in this, it's not a masculine way to make this decision. You gotta do your due diligence, check her out, check her background. Yeah, it's true, women can change. That has a lot to do with who you allow her to be friends with. Yeah, they're gonna respond to you as well, right? As a woman, they wanna respond to your masculinity and shape to that in many ways.  Exactly. Great, that's right. I mean, if I don't want a guy, I want a woman, women or soft men are hard. That's the way it is. They do conform. They have to conform to their children to some extent. They can form to their husband. They're very good at that. I mean, my female coaching clients progress two or three times faster than the guys because men are stubborn. We don't wanna change quickly, which is good. That gives us stability to society. But you tell a woman something and she's like, yeah, I'll go try it out. You know, she'll backslide all the time too, but this is just the way it is. And we need to manage the risk. We're all talking about managing the risk. That's up to you. That's from something inside of you that you choose how to manage the risk and how to make sure, I mean, Steve's right. Like if you pick the right woman, you don't have these problems. And well, if you manage her right, pick the right woman, manage her right, you'll be fine. That's a complex way of saying it's all, it comes down to your choices. And that also is aligned with what DDJ is saying too, though, in terms of risk management. It's choices, choices, choices, choices, agency. It's what I'm hearing anyway. Kind of drawn out. Yeah, I did. I wanted to pick it back a little on Steve's stuff. He was talking about the relationship not being based on a love relationship. And I think that's a really powerful thing because so many guys go into a relationship needing a woman to validate them, to fulfill them, to complete them. I'm going to her to try to domesticate me, to make me a better man.  And they were here. And that's our society is so saying that. It's like, I have to have somebody in my life to make me better at who I am. And I think to Steve's point, the whole thing of being a man, being strong, being internally referenced, having a solid sense of self, not needing anybody else out there to complete me or to validate me is a powerful way to start a relationship. Well, why is it bad for a woman to complete you? Is this codependency? Is this sort of a... Absolutely. Total codependency. That's what it is. And that's kind of what our, and that's the narrative of our culture that a man needs a woman to domesticate him or a man needs a woman to make him complete. It's in it and it's complete idi... It's idiocy, it's just not right.  You said hard and soft. I'm going to men are solid, women are fluid. A man is the river banks. He's the one that tells the river where to go by guiding and men are solid. Be a solid man, be strong, have an internal frame of reference, be masculine, have that polarity and that's what's gonna carry the relationship. But if it's based on love or infatuation, it's gonna fall apart because no matter what, Noah, you're right in the middle of having babies.   She's all her time and energy go to the babies. And if you don't have a good sense of self and it's based on that codependency and needing her to be able to give you attention, man, it's all gonna fall apart. And so we've gotta know that relationships, marriage is something based on such a stronger foundation than just infatuation. Yeah, Ken, I wanted to actually dig into, you're the only one of the panelists who's a licensed marriage and family therapist. You've done that for decades at this point, yeah? Not quite decades, but yeah, been long enough. Yeah, so I wanna take on a dig into at least temporarily for a few minutes. What's your experience been doing that? Like what's that like? The only other family therapist I know like that is Dr. Robert Glover. What's your experience been doing that's a bit different, I think, so I'm curious to hear about that's like. Yeah, so give me something a little more specific with the question. I'm curious, first of all, is a lot of it is couples based or is it singular based or is it a mix of both? Like 50 to 50? Well, probably, yeah, so my practice, I do a lot, probably two thirds of my work is with men specifically, just with men. And it's actually going through a lot of the crap that men deal with, because, man, agreed the court system, it's a rough place. And a lot of guys really get screwed in a lot of ways. And so it's tough, it's a tough place. And so helping guys navigate losing relationships or being in the middle of a relationship that's falling apart or something like that. But it always comes back with that individual work, it always comes back to working with a guy to rebuild his frame and rebuild his sense of self. Because in a relationship, you would use the word codependency, Anthony, it's, and if I'm living in a codependent fashion, which most of us are, I have to step back and create what's called interdependence, not codependence. And interdependence requires that I be a person, that I have an identity, that I have a differentiated self, that I know who I am and what I want. And when I'm able to start to reclaim that territory and I reclaim my own soul and I reclaim my own self, then I can actually engage in a relationship from a healthy fashion. And that's a really, really significant shift. So two thirds of my time is helping guys do that. And then the other third is working with marriages and working with couples. And in a working with couples, that's pretty much all I do is help people to learn how to communicate who they are, what they want and helping each other be able to then collaborate to be able to take care of each other and to be able to build well-being in the relationship. Cause that's why we get married in the first place is to have a higher sense of well-being. And that's a pretty significant thing. But I think of one thing that people don't realize is, and Glover talks about this and it's brilliant. He calls it marriage or relationship is a people growing machine.  It's gonna make you more mature. It's gonna move you to a place where you are stronger and you're more internally referenced and you're more of having a stronger sense of identity. And most people- That actually brings me to what I wanted to ask you next. Sure, sure. I wanted to talk about the benefits of marriage and family. Not even specific to fatherhood itself and that element, but what are the benefits on a personal level to a man who does this? Obviously, like Noah mentioned, there's sacrifice, there's risk to it. There's added responsibility. Are these things good for a man? Why are they good? Why isn't it just, why not? Why would you want to do this as a young man today rather than live some hedonistic, enjoy the decline, fall to the West? So what are the benefits on a personal level to a man? Like you were mentioning, I really like, I never heard that from Dr. Glover, but it's a people growing machine. It makes it more mature, for example. So let's open the whole panel too. But it just benefits being in a marriage like, why would you do this? Married men live longer. They tend to be healthier, especially if you have kids. Before I was married, I didn't think anything of sacrificing myself to accomplish some goal. And that was great for getting things done, but that's not a good path to follow when you're 40, 50 years old.  And then when I got married, I was like, no, I have to balance this out, because I can't drive crazy fast or go with friends to drive crazy fast. I can't put myself in dangerous situations anymore. I got someone that needs me, that relies on me. You have kids, it's a whole other level of that. And so you start making smart decisions. You start saying, I better make sure I got my sleep and my eating and my exercise on point so that when I'm 40, I'm about to have twins. When I'm 60, I wanna be able to go hard wrestling with those kids and not get myself broken. That means I gotta take care of myself now. So your whole calculations in life, everything you're doing changes when you have a wife and kids because you now have to, you have to worry about future you. When you're single, future you, doesn't matter. I mean, who wants to grow old alone? That's horrible, grow old with grandkids? That's awesome. My thing is, and again, and if someone wants to grow old by themselves, that's fine, I don't mind that. But for me, I got tired. I mean, okay, the orgies, the threesomes, the women sleeping around, having them do stuff. I mean, when you live a lifestyle, when you have a lot of women, you get a lot of women at one point in time. You kinda get tired of it. You get bored with it. You get bored with all the women wanting to get with you and on. It just starts to become boring. But on top of that, again, I was lucky enough that my father always told me, you know, this is how Williams eats a Big Mac. This is how Williams walks. This is how Williams talks. And we just kept churning that into my head to give me a certain kind of arrogance and confidence about myself. I mean, who has a picture like this on the back of the thing? That's how I feel about myself.  I wanted to duplicate me.  But it was a systematic thing of putting her through the rigorous things. She had to show me that she could slay the Minotaur and put it on the top of Mount Kilimanjaro and come down and cook and clean and do all her wifely duties just to get in her foot in the door to grab my attention and say, okay, you could be a wife to me. But it was also being able, and this is something guys don't do, it was also talking to her. We had talks about political views, religion, let's see, religion, money, or is your credit had to be right? I need to look at her debt, the money that she created. We talked about discipline, Halloween, Christmas. I had to make sure that if she was gonna be honored, keyword honored by having my kids, she had to be the right woman for the job. And that's what we did. We talked about it and I made sure that she was right for it because, and this is, let's see a lot of guys don't think that high of themselves to do that. But the reason why I wanted marriage was because you know what, again, I'm not a religious person, but I'm more of a Christian than most Christians and that's weird because I, you know, anyway. But the thing is this, the thing is this, is that I wanted a family. And if you want a family, that's the only reason to get married to, in my opinion.  But the thing that I love the most is being able to look at my kids and knowing that my last name and my legacy is going to move forward. And I'm gonna keep pushing that through my kids.  But he taught me values of being a man. That's why I did it, because I wanted to duplicate. Cause I knew who I was and I knew what I can give to the world. I can give the world good women that know their place and will treat a man the way he should be treated. I knew I could create men that can go into this world, find good women if they choose to and duplicate and keep the thing churning. So for me, it was more about my arrogance and my conceitiveness. I'd like to hit the super chat. Unless the most, there's a super chat we missed from about 10, 15 minutes ago and hop onto. This one is from Tim Allen. Tim Allen, thanks for the super chat. If you love the woman and she leaves you because you're making mistakes, how can you find it in you to love another woman? It feels like even if I find someone new, I'm always gonna wish I was with her. Open the panel. I'll go last. Oh, y'all good. I mean, it sounds like a really deep, yeah, it sounds like a trust issue. I mean, I can relate to this.  But that's the key. If you read the statement there, gentlemen, if you love the woman and she leaves you because you're making mistakes, guess what guys? We're guys. We make mistakes. Hey, we're always gonna make mistakes, man. But it's either on the mistake, but see again on the streets before the internet, it was a thing called ride or die. And I know a lot of you young hares don't understand that.  And even if you make a mistake, a woman should be there for you and not against you. And see, these are the little signs that we're trying to tell you guys. When a woman is always beating you down for the mistake you made and throwing it in your face over and over and over again. Is that really love? Is that really respect? Then no, that isn't. So when you, listen, I want you to love another woman, young man, but first I need you to learn how to respect another woman or have her respect you first. Once you can get in a respect relationship and throw love out and let love be something that is earned, then you won't worry or have the fear because here's your problem. Last thing I wanna say, and I'll go back to it.  So I gotta make sure I do everything right. You can't ask men.  That's the truth. But I am never going to allow, and I hate to say this, a woman that bleeds once a month to dictate to me how to be a man or to judge me on the moves that I make. So what I'm saying to you, man, is that get out of that love stuff, stop making excuses, and learn from one of these, and you've got individuals on this panel, a community of men that you can talk to right now and help get yourself out of it because you can't do it on your own, brother.  So something obvious to do is go out and meet new women and let time go by.  And time will heal a lot. Well, and I think that's true.  I mean, that's the reality. And the other thing is too, is that, look, we have the practice of law. We have the practice of medicine. The problem that we have today is society doesn't allow us to practice marriage. And so when men and women make mistakes, everybody's like, okay, we're in ultimatumville and now we have to just destroy the relationship no matter what, right? And so we have this idea that we should focus on ourselves to the exclusion of everything else. And that's completely wrong. We have to be what Ken said, we have to be interdependent. We can't be codependent because once we become codependent, it becomes a problem. And the reality is this, and this is something that I've come to terms with again, I've been divorced twice.  If you're not running around and abusing her or anything like that, and I'm talking like legitimate abuse, not the feminist redefinition of my feelings are hurt. So now I got to file a DV order because you said a mean word to me. That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is like, if you're not abusive and she can't work through those things, then she wasn't, she didn't love you. She didn't love you the way you needed to be loved. So move on, find something else and do what I did. Learn to vet, learn to vet, learn to make decisions. I can tell you right now, I've done a lot of divorces and I've talked to a lot of guys around the country about divorce in the context of their divorce. And you know, it's funny, every one of them says, and I said this too in my first marriage, every one of them says, I should have seen the signs, they were there. I should have seen the signs, they were there.  If you see signs in the beginning of the relationship where you know there's gonna be problems down the road, cut her off and they're on to the next one. But we don't do that because the sex is so good. And it's like- Let's come out and say another one. I'm just saying, go find another one that you can have a relationship with. I'm saying that's why we don't listen to our intuitive. We don't watch the red flags. We don't see the yellow flags. We don't go, oh my gosh, she's treating the wait staff horribly or damn, we don't have the same political value or the same faith value or there's just stuff that's not going on that there are the things that she's doing that she's not being honest with me or whatever it is, we don't listen to it because, gosh, like Tim said in his side thing, she was the best that I could have done. And it's like, good grief, man. It's like, that's the one-eyedest thing that this woman is the only thing I need in order to make me feel good about myself and I'm not gonna listen to the red flags and that's what gets me in a problem. That's awesome. Veding is absolutely essential. Well, and let's say- Idealization too, right, Ken? Like he's idealizing the song. It's that real thing. Absolutely, I find a lot of one-eyedest when I drill down with men to figure out what it is. It's fantasy, it's romanticism, and the purpose of it is to put off moving forward. They don't really like her, they like the idea of her because then they can think about the past and not have to think that, man, I got some work to do on myself and I got some work to do on going out and filtering and found me a new one. It's better to leave it in my head and if you can get them over that point, the one-eyedest will go away. Well, and I think that the other thing too that we need to make sure that men understand is this. When you orgasm, that doesn't mean that she loves you. Right? That means you feel good, right?  This must be love. It's like, no, man, no, you just orgasmed. It is what it is. It's a great feeling. We all understand it, but orgasm does not and never will equal love.  Yeah, it's not just the orgasm though. It's the fact that she allowed you in and that's the validation.  That means I'm somebody, I have value. And when you start giving the woman value or you get your value from a woman, it's like Steve says, you're giving her all the power in the world. Yeah, one of the greatest compliments that a mutual friend of ours, Anthony said to me was, he said, I know you don't need the approval of women, but I wanted to let you know that so-and-so thought that you enjoyed your talk at the 21 convention. And saying to me, saying you don't need women's approval to, you know, for validation, that is what makes a man immune to these type of problems. You get divorced, you don't get divorced.  Doesn't matter because that's not your life. No, tell me, say it again, say it again about immunity. I want, I think it's so huge what you're saying.  And not on your relationship with your woman, your relationship with your friends, your job, your career, whatever, because it makes you immune to evil people, manipulative people. They can't, they have no edge, they can get into you. There's no change in your armor. And what happens is bad women come along and say, they'll poke you and test you. And they'll be like, oh, I can't manipulate this man. I'm off to the next one.  I think they're so well said, well said. I wanna move the topic or the conversation forward a little bit. I have two things I wanna get through still. One is an idea that I heard, I heard this separately in a book recently I was reading but I think Ken or Noah mentioned earlier in the show. The idea that I heard that was related to whatever I heard in this show today as well, the idea is that the boy is the father of the man and obviously a man becomes the father of a boy when it becomes a father someday. But it's the idea that psychologically that your young self in a way of father the man that you eventually became, the choices that you made in childhood to the extent you had the ability to exert control over that and actually make a choice in your life as a young, as a boy, as a teenager and then as a young man. So I guess kind of open up to the panel and see what you guys thought about that. It was an idea I had not seen before. I had heard that recently. The boy is the father of the man. Well, I think that when it comes to a lot of this and we know we did a stream about this is probably, I think it was the first stream we did together. I think multi-generational mentorship from men is probably crucially important because again, it's about that community, right? It's a community you surround yourself with. So if your child has a strong father and that strong father is surrounded by other strong men whether it be uncles and grandparents things like their grandfathers, things like that. That child's gonna get a better upbringing and that child's gonna grow up to be a lot stronger than a father who is either weak or a father who hasn't had that mentorship himself or a father who is kind of like the blind leading the blind. And I think that that's why that multi-generational mentorship is so crucial for young men today. And that's why you see a lot of this promiscuity culture. You see this focus on the culture of me over the culture of anything else. I mean, those things are problems. Well, DDP, I think what you're saying, what I hear what you're saying too is that multi-generational mentorship is not only valuable and important but then when it's gone, the consequences are catastrophic and tend to snowball over multiple generations. They do. And so it's a positive, it's very strong positive and it's a very strong negative too is what I'm hearing. Well, yeah, I mean, I always say that, yeah, and I always say that children of broken homes are often job creators for the welfare state. You have to hire more police officers, more judges, more therapists, more jailers. It becomes a problem that's snowballed. So yeah, you have to have that multi-generational mentorship. And the thing is, as a parent, I can say this because I'm a parent and a grandparent. One of the things that I see is that at least in my own life, and I hear this from a lot of fathers is my children teach me. You know, they teach me about myself. Absolutely. And, you know, and what's nice is, is when you teach your children how to do things, you confirm the knowledge for yourself. So, you know, those things are extremely important in parenthood because as you see your child get those milestones, that's fulfilling as a father. I know it was for me. So I know that, you know, every father I've talked to, they say that. And I know there's guys in this panel over here on it that talked about parenthood and the benefits that it has for a man. So, yeah, your child in some ways will teach you, but it won't be in the ways that you think. Yeah, oh, that is so true, for sure. Anthony. That's a benefit by the way I've not heard of that your children will help you like that and teach you. Dude, man. I don't know how to explain it, but trust me. What DDJ is saying is so spot on. You learn so much from your kids. It is a context of growth that is way beyond what you could ever imagine. You learn so much, especially if you're parenting them well, teaching them to have a voice, teaching them to hold you accountable as a dad, as well as them. It's amazing. It's such a great relationship. And that I think, so what you just said, Ken, I think highlights like the total, there's a total lack of that, or at least for a long time, there's been a huge lack of that thrust that children will benefit you in the manuscript itself. Like this is absolutely not an outlier idea other than like maybe 100 drew in the patriarch stuff too, other than that, like this is not allowed to discuss. It's a discussion point. Noah? Yeah, my youngest brother died about six months before my wife got pregnant with my first son. And he'd had like 20-something years of bad health. He had a terrible brain infection when he was two. And it had been constant suffering for decades. And it was really terrible.  And I said to my wife, I said there's so much death in the family because when I was a kid, I had a huge family and it just kept shrinking. And my brother has a couple of kids, but otherwise nobody was having kids and one brother died. So I said to my wife, the antidote to death and suffering is life and happiness. We need to make a kid. And then we got, you know, started working on it right away. And that's exactly what it is.  If your childhood sucks, make sure your kids doesn't and enjoy their childhood with them. That is so awesome. That is really awesome, that way you're saying that. That's just too much positivity for me.  Oh, and one other thing I wanted to say that the antidote to hypergamy is to get your wife pregnant multiple times. It's been a while since I've had a hypergamy when you're in a business every couple of years. What a plan. What a plan.  And then this unique personality on top of that. I wanted to move the conversation forward a little bit into- Anthony, hang on a second. Can I answer your other question? The whole thing of the boy is the father of the man. Where my brain went was the whole concept of initiation and the whole thing of bringing a boy to become a man. And I think most of us have not gone through a process of initiation. It's not something that is normal in the West. And so being able to actually create that or actually think through that and know what that is. Cause the first step of the initiation is pulling the boy and oftentimes they'll do it in the middle of the night and they'll pull the boy away from the women. And that's the point of fear that fear is the driver. That's like the greatest fear that a boy would have and pulling him away into this uncertain territory of who knows what it is. And that's where a boy begins to be a man. It's separation from the women and becoming with the men. And this is DDJ's thing he was talking about. The whole thing of multi-generational mentoring. It's like, yeah, the men that are older than me are gonna guide me into a place where I actually know what it means to be a man, but it can't be done connected to women. And that's we, all of us, and so much of what's on the hemisphere is talking about women, women this, women that, what's wrong with women, AWOLT, hypergamy, all this stuff. And it's like, why are we so stinking? We're so stuck on what's going on with women. Let's get us to a place where we are. That's because one of the main things about that is, because anybody can identify the problem, very few people are willing to look at the solutions. And let's be real, there's a huge culture in the atmosphere right now of an unwillingness to listen to people older than themselves.  So that's the whole attitude when the reality is is that that multi-generational mentorship is actually crucial to foster that healthy masculinity and that healthy aggressiveness and that healthy alpha male that every man can be.  And that's, again, that's the advantage in the power of multi-generational mentorship. But I think the biggest problem, again, with the man's fear is that everybody wants to point out the problem. Nobody wants to look at the solutions. And nobody wants to look at the solutions when those solutions involve self-reflection and a little bit of the necessary naval gazing we need to improve ourselves. And let me tell you something, when I realized that my first marriage was my fault, that's a humbling experience. When you're like, wow, I fucked up in a major way. So, you know, most guys can't do that. And you see a lot of YouTube personalities out there, they can't do it as well. So, like you guys said earlier, we are all fallible, we all make mistakes. But the point is not only for us to learn from those mistakes, but to let other people know that look, we're human, we make mistakes, you will too. It's about progress, not perfection. I wanted to hop off something or spin off something that Ken and DDJ said. Something I've been thinking about since finding the work of Jack Donovan and then more recently in the past few months, I have all the events going on, should like that for the convention, the red man group and all that. The Manisphere itself, you know, it's a title, it's a concept, it's kind of an awkward name. I don't deny that, I don't think anybody does. But it's the best one we have so far and I remember I've yet to see a better one. But I think in the name that there's truth and power to it that's been kind of not overlooked. And specifically that the Manisphere should focus on men and masculinity. By virtue of the name itself and by over-focusing. And that doesn't mean women and feminine nature and all these things in hypergamy are not relevant topics, obviously, for men they're gonna be relevant. But they should not be high up in the, that high up in the food chain, they should not be number one. They should be a part of a pie or further down the list. And so I think that the Manisphere has lost its way in recent months and years and it's gotten over-focusing. Maybe never even find the right path in the first place and it's up to us to set that path, to focus on men and masculinity and all these associated topics with that. Whether that's fatherhood and patriarchy or marriage and relationships and family and children and parenting, even up to including politics and stuff like that. And a DDJ has harped on that that feminists, ignoring politics is dangerous because feminists have weaponized it super effectively for a long, long time. And that affects men. That affects us in numerous ways, whether it's me too stuff or getting raped in divorce courts systematically across the country and family court and stuff like that. So I wanted to say that you had a good point Ken by talking about the focus on women and stuff like that. It needs to not be that. It needs to be the focus needs to be, look at the name. I mean, the name has power and the name is pretty accurate. The Manosphere, a collection of men, loosely connect organized body of men on the internet, numbering in the millions, focusing on issues surrounding men.  Well, and here's the thing too. When you get around a group of masculine men, like truly masculine men who are healthy in their own identities, what ends up happening is that when you sit for those behind the scenes conversations, women hardly ever come up. You know? I mean, we're too busy focused on other things. And again, you know, I'm not a perfect guy or anything like that. But, you know, I'm not talking about the horrors of feminism all the time. I'm talking about, you know, focusing on things that make men better, healthier. That's all. Yeah, let's hop to the phone line. Steve, we got a caller from Erika937. Steve, you're on mute. There you go. Okay, so go ahead. I have a problem with organizing bills on paper work. Okay. Let me add him to the stream. Try this one, Steve, see if that helps. I think I heard him. He said he had a problem organizing bills in paper work. Yeah, I think that was a text chat, actually. He must have called in. Let me see if I can find that and hop it on the screen. Where was that? Yeah, thanks for calling in, by the way, caller. I'll see if I can find your text chat real quick and get to that. Yeah, you gotta sort out any difficulty you have with money before you get with a woman. I heard him. That's gonna get applied 100 times. So I think it's Sean Anderson who called in. Having problems organizing bills in paper work, can you do it if he sits down, talks and kind of holds my hand? How are watching to look for a woman that can either do that for me or not echo it independently? I don't know if I'm following this question. It seems kind of all over the place. Well, I think that in general, I think that one of the things you need to do is you need to be able to manage your own finances.   I mean, the reason why there are accountants and the reason why you have audits is to make sure your business is doing well, right? So what you do is, I mean, this is profitable or if your business is gonna lose when you don't audit the paperwork, you don't see what your profit and loss statement looks like, right? So the reality is at the end of the day, you gotta audit everything that's happening because you need to know if somebody's stealing money, you need to know if you're wasting money somewhere, you need to know where your financial life can be more efficient. And on top of that, you need to know if you're making the right investments and the way you do that is to audit it. If you don't have the ability to do it or you're unwilling to learn, you're asking for somebody to take advantage of you. And you see this with financial embezzlement all the time. So yeah, control your finances, learn how to do it. If you hate it, make it a strength because that's a necessary requirement of having a healthy long-term lifestyle.  You gotta learn that. Yeah, I totally agree with you.  Like she's supposed to be able to rely on you and here you are dumping all your money problems on her. That's not gonna work. That's gonna stress her out. What happens when you get her pregnant? She's gonna wanna focus on breastfeeding a kid, but no, she's gotta go and sort out your money problems. Men sort out their problems. They can ask other men or professionals for help with those problems, but dumping it on their woman, it sets a bad precedent and it tells her that you're not all the way growing up yet.  Yeah, I totally agree. I think what he should do is again, for me I was looking, I was told to go take account classes when I was young and holding economics and things like that, learn how to cook and stow. I was taught to learn how to do everything myself so I'd never have to rely on somebody else. And the important thing here is that it's not the fact that you can't do it. It's the fact that you're too stressed out by it. You can do it. It's just sitting back and writing down what are your bills versus what you make, and that's it. It's not as complicated as you seem, but when you push that on a woman, you're automatically gonna lose her respect right there because she's thinking, how can a man, remember, always talk about investments.  And if you can't handle his own money, he probably can't handle himself. And if he can't handle himself, then why would I even wanna be with him or have a baby by him? If I have a baby by him, because he can't handle it, I'm gonna take over and let it, I mean, it's a domino effect. The first thing you've gotta do is basic adding and subtraction. It is not complicated. Getting all your bills together because like I always say, as a king, you must have your hand in every single jar that you are ahead of every single jar. You must know all bills. Even that, listen, let me explain something to you. My woman knows accounting, okay? Taxes and all that other stuff. She's real good with that stuff. And I'm not saying I'm not, but I know she's better than me. But when we go out on our date nights on Friday night, if I wanna look at the books, if I wanna know what's going on, I'll see the books and I have a grand idea what's going on. Now remember, I'm doling it out to her. I'm not giving it out to her. I'm allowing her to utilize things that are good in her. These are some of the reasons why I picked her in the first place. I can do it myself easily with my eyes closed, but she knows taxes better than I do. I don't know, I can be honest with you. I don't know nothing much about taxes, but what I'm saying to you caller is this, you've got to be able to handle everything in your house before you bring somebody in your house. Steve, it's sense to me like what you're saying. And it's really good. I like it is that you're retaining authority and then delegating it on tap as you decide, that sounds good. I don't want to scream at that, but I think it's good. Yeah, and let me say one other thing too. Coming from a legal perspective, one of the ways you can find out if your woman is cheating on you when you're concerned is you figure out what she's spending money on. When you know how to audit your thing, oh, she took your money to go bang another dude. And you audit the books, you can see that. I'm not saying that you should be all paranoid or nothing like that. I'm not trying to foster a cult like Steve says. So nobody gets their panties in a bunch. All I'm saying is that when you audit your finances, you know when they're being misused and when they're being misused, well, now you know how to, because you know what you're taking. I'm just saying, and I'll piggyback off what you're saying. This is what I tell guys. Before, again, a lot of people think I'm crazy when I tell them when I move in with a woman to get a joint bank account, and that's because all the bills are gonna go into that bank account. She is not getting any of my money. Don't ask for any money. Don't ask for gas money. Well, your money's your money. My money's my money. And we are paying for bills and entertainment in a separate account. That's what I'm talking about when we get that. But then when it's time to go to engagement, that's when I need to look at the books, DDJ. I need to know how much money you're bringing in, what you're spending, what your credit score is, and how much debt you have accumulated. Because I, yeah, I mean, I'm not taking on your debt. So you're gonna have to be, I need a responsible woman, because I'm a responsible man.  That's what I was saying, brother. Moving the conversation forward a little bit, I wanted to move into, implications or consequences of marriage or benefits that extend beyond yourself. So how do these things affect culture and like social, you know, the social structure that we live in? I'll be talking to you. They strengthen communities. Okay, yeah, taking the words without it in my mouth. Yeah, they strengthen, I mean, listen, I lived in the Seattle area for a long time. And I've been, you know, in the last probably two years, I've been around the country a couple dozen times. And when you go into a community, you drive into a community as a stranger and you can drive through that community and you can go, this is a Christian community. This community promotes families. This community promotes, you know, healthy masculinity and healthy femininity. And it helps, you know, limited government. You see those communities, those are healthy communities.  There is civility in those communities. When you go into an area that does not value family, I mean, it's like you walking down a street and it's the people of Walmart. So, you know, you see all kinds of craziness and the people are not as civil. They are more grifters. They have what's referred to as that fake California smile and nobody is authentic. And so you see that and you can tell right away, again, by interacting with the people, by taking a quick look around, by driving through the community, you could see how much family values impact those communities. Cause I'll tell you, the values that adults have, they learn from their family. And if they don't have an intact family, then those values get warped and skewed oftentimes. So, again, it's about safe communities. It's about strong communities. It's about civil communities. And it's, you know, it's about a community that in a true sense is progressive in that community is evolving in positive ways. I don't mean progressive like the leftist cancer we talk about. I'm talking about the actual definition of progressive. So, I think that when it comes to those types of things, yeah, we absolutely see it. In fact, they even say that if you're in a poor community or you're in a non-family oriented community, but you are living a Christian lifestyle where husband and wife are raising their biological children together with Christian values, with an American cultural mindset, that family will be inoculated from the social cancer and plagues that are around them. Yeah, just gonna bring up like a minute ago, you mentioned something related to what you just ended with. And that's that, you know, when you don't have this family structure and these things around you, it's extended family and immediate, it's healthy and positive. You're weak to social cancers that wanna influence you and control you. You don't have any, it's hard to have, you don't have a vice system.  And if you don't do that on your own, then you don't have one at all.   Well, Anthony, like you said, everything that shines is in gold. I mean, yesterday was Friday 13th and I'll use that analogy for most communities. They're so busy telling everybody, keep going to Camp Crystal Lake and they know there's a murderous maniac there and they keep on doing it. And DDJ is absolutely right, but it's also why you've got to be able to challenge everybody by knowing what you are and what your values are. You can't just be, and again, like DDJ is right about everything you're saying, but just because a couple is presenting themselves as, you know, we have 2.5 kids, a dog and a white picket fence and a pie out the window and we got our arm around each other and we're the perfect couple. We're the Joneses. Hi, you don't know what's going on behind the scenes of that household. So again, before you learn about the community of everybody else, learn about the community of you first. When you do that, you can never go wrong. Here's a question after the panel that will expand this even further. You know, 5,000 years ago, as far as I know, marriage didn't exist even remotely, anything like it exists now. It's nothing like it a couple of thousand years ago. I could be wrong on that, but that's my understanding of history in a basic sense. Now we have had marriage in America for a long time and in the West. What is the future of the West and of America without these things that we call loosely family values and marriage? You could call it a Christian lifestyle, but even separate from any kind of religious aspect. What's the future of this country and the nations around it like Canada and the UK and stuff, without these things that are obviously dying off. And that's not just talking about, that's not just talking about the manuscript, it's talking about in mainstream news, even like the fall of the family, the family values and all these things. Where is this country gonna go in the West if we don't have these things? What are the consequences? What I call it is, and I've done a couple of recent videos about this, what it is is it's the death of the patriarchy is what we're seeing. It's not just family values, it's family values led by strong, high agency capable men. And you will always have a patriarchy. You can undermine your patriarchy, you can lose it and an external stronger patriarchy will sweep in and take you over. This is basically the cycle of history. A strong patriarchal society say early Rome, they grow and they expand, then they become weak, the family becomes weak and they get destroyed by a group that has strong patriarchal values, more masculine group takes them over and then it happens again and it's a cycle. Either we're going to reignite men's agency and get them back doing the job of leading society or someone else is going to come in and lead us. So basically our choice is slavery and annihilation or a return to family values. This isn't like, this isn't a aesthetic preference. This is a matter of survival. And it may not seem like that now because we're coasting on so much strength from, a couple hundred years of massive expansion of the West. But we're just about hitting the epigee of where that energy is going to take us and it's downhill from here if we don't change things. And by annihilation in these things, you don't necessarily mean like this Mad Max scenario we're riding around on, we're in the Thunderdome. What you mean is probably more like a Soviet style collapse that we saw happen in the early 90s. A lot of Americans don't care about. There are not every patriarchy, Western patriarchy took care of women and children better than any organizational system before that. We really did it to protect women and children. And there are other patriarchies with much less interest in protecting women and children that are expanding into the West at the moment. Millions of them coming in from other parts of the world. And we're either going to find that we reinstate ourselves in a leadership position over society or they will. And that would be like cultures that literally chop women's heads off for adultery in the street. Yeah. What's the problem with that? What happened? There is clear land. We're referring to Saudi Arabia actually is the one referring to that. What? Yeah, I'm trying to figure out the problem here. I'm a little lost. Yeah, maybe they have some good ideas. And exactly that's going to happen. I tell people you can promote your own loving patriarchy of the West or you're going to get it replaced by something harsh and intolerant. Either it's going to come from us because we're going to go, hey, maybe these guys have some good ideas and we're going to end up with something homegrown or we're going to get taken over. This is not a new thing. This is just a cycle of history. It's what happens in the past. Well, and let me dovetail on that a little bit. This is why men have to vote. This is why men have to be politically active. This is why men cannot socially isolate. This is why men have to be involved in their communities because this isn't about being a disposable utility at this point when I'm talking about this.  And so we have to repeal some of these laws that discriminate against men. We have to make sure that we don't allow anti-American bigots in public office. When one of the requirements in Congress and one of the requirements to be elected in government is you have to take an oath to protect the Constitution. So if you're going to go and say, Mike, I'm going to campaign on taking gun rights away, you've violated your oath before you ever started.  We don't need you. The reality is that if you don't stand for the Constitution, if you don't stand for the Western Christian way of life, if you don't stand for American culture, you probably don't belong, not even in the man's sphere, but you don't belong in the United States because those are cultural values that we as American citizens have. And this is absolutely correct. There are no go zones in the United States.  There is a lot of problems. There are a lot of social cancers in the United States and there are people here whose goal is destruction. That's their goal. They want to create a recession. They want to create a collapse so they can usher in this new era of communism. That's the reality. And they've openly said this. And so a lot of guys get this idea that like five, 10 years ago, I remember a lot of guys like, oh, these are conspiracy theories. They're not going to come take your guns. Congratulations, you now have red flag laws that violate due process rights guaranteed under the Constitution. And all the things that everybody had been sounding off about for the last 15, 20 years and they were called conspiracy theorists, turns out these were facts. So- The fact that they entered into DDJ one of our speakers recently jacked on and he's spoken a couple of times including Poland recently. He put out a blog post recently and he doesn't usually talk about politics at all anymore. He used to a long time ago and then he just started just staying away from it focusing on the topics of masculinity. But he did revisit politics and the thrust of his post was about the Bill of Rights and how if the Bill of Rights is not something that you can get behind, we have a problem. And so separate from anything to do with political parties and ideology and all these things and preferences in terms of voting and politics and all this like the Bill of Rights is extremely important. And that's just part of the Constitution obviously a large part of it or just the beginning of it. But yeah, I thought that was pretty interesting. I haven't seen anyone- Well it's based on federal law. Yeah. Anyway, I thought it was just kind of fascinating especially what you're saying. Well, what normally happens to traders who say they'll uphold the Constitution and then work to undermine it in the background. I think, I seem to remember there was a pretty serious consequences for that. And if we don't enforce boundaries in our relationships with other people, with women, whatever, even with friends we know what happens. Total chaos and we destroy it. And that's what I'm saying. That's why I don't have a problem with the whole Saudi idea of chopping heads off for adultery. Well, what happens when we don't enforce boundaries with our own governments? Right. Well, I think that's- Well, I'm looking at it and I see, I agree with what they're all saying but I'm seeing that it's already happening now. And I really feel like it's women that have orchestrated a great chess move by placing who they created in certain areas and certain positions to get certain things that they want done. But I'll whittle it down a little bit but case in point, look at this show right here that we're on right now. It's not the women that's trying to stop the man information of the community trying to get out. It is males, grass eating lions that are coming on here trying to represent mom and trying to take the information that this community is trying to give and what they're doing is they're trying to protect mommy. And that's why someone came and asked about all the dislikes. Of course we're gonna be disliked because mommy doesn't want that information to know that if she's around a man, she's gotta submit. So what does she do? She creates what I call the Smiths, the Antichrists and the Agents. The guys that will come in here and smile in your face but they don't want this information out. So that's, and I think, like I said, I see where y'all are coming from but I think it's already here. They've already, I mean, if y'all see, like I said, I watch football. Y'all watch Cam Newton the other day with a scarf over his head like he was Harriet from 1950. You can see it's already happening. They have already integrated themselves into our boys to make them think that it's okay to be more feminine than masculine. But you also see it with all these people that have been in the chat room trying to sway us men. See, the thing they don't understand is you can't sway a man.  But what they don't understand is they're coming in because they're doing it all. See, everybody, see, think about magic. Magic is all about the trick of the hand, right? You're watching this but you ain't watching this. So what's happening is a lot of people are focusing on women but they're not seeing that it's other males, not men, other males coming in and trying to prevent men like us to get the information out. So I think, to me, I think it's already happening.  That's the whole, see, people don't understand this. People think, you know, Mr. Milk Bookwriter and Mr. Car Driver and all the mother, K-Cast motherfuckers over there, they think they got their best interest but they don't understand that they're working for the women. They're not working for you to be a man. They're trying to declaw you and defame you by the sleight of hand. But you don't see the magic that they're doing. And I didn't mean to go in the soapbox but I'm just saying, I think y'all are right what you're saying but I think it's happening right here and like, see, we notice it because we're men, we can see. But a lot of these young men are so trustworthy and they think because a man is telling them something that what he's saying is right. That's all the ones saying that fact. Yeah, Steve's absolutely right. We don't have anything to fear from women. I mean, we're bigger and... Yeah, what we have to be concerned about is men who get wrapped up in women's, around women's thumbs and or through politics get under the control of women and those men being weaponized against other men. And, you know- Sounds like a vision males to me. Yeah, well, one of my friends, he said, men are physical super predators, women are social super predators. Women are super predators in social things. They know how to get what they want through social means the control of men through social means. If we make ourselves immune to that control then we suddenly have a tremendous amount of power. And the more men, this is why what you're doing, Anthony, is so important here. And what all of us are doing teaching men how to become immune to women's manipulation. This is why they're attacking us. They don't want us to teach other men agency and how to be immune to manipulation because then they can't control them. And women and the men being controlled by women are definitely afraid that men are gonna figure out that, hey, actually we don't have to listen to what you say in your orders. We can kind of do what we want. Mm-hmm. Yeah, and I wanted to ask- Let me add something real quick. The other thing I want to say too is is that you're gonna see a lot of these guys that come into these channels and they do the hate, like Steve says. You're gonna watch, because what they're trying to do is they're trying to diminish, but more importantly, they got their crayons out. They're taking notes.  And they'll act like they invented it. They're like, oh yeah, well, you know, this is what you gotta do, da da da da da da da da da. It's like, no, listen. If we wanted the Good Cuck Project we would go to the Good Cuck Project. We don't want the Good Cuck Project. That's why we're on the red man. Kind of wanted to ask, you know, you've worked in a very personal setting as a family and marriage therapist for quite a while now. So you're seeing the personal consequences of these things, the benefits, the risks, the outcomes for good and for better and for worse. What are your thoughts on the long range and larger scale implications of what you do? You and other men like you, like Dr. Glover and the thousands of other family and marriage therapists, do you have thoughts on that? Yeah, it just feels like that there's a hell of a lot of work to do. I mean, this is a, what we're talking about here is a cultural shift. And I love how Noah's talking about it, how it's like the immunity side of it. Because that's really the essence of it is how does a man become a man become a, and I call it, like I said, the internal frame of reference where he's listening to himself, he's listening to his intuitive, he's finding his wisdom, he's knowing his identity and moving from that and beginning to create the life that he wants. And I think that's the building block of this. And so I think the work that everybody here is doing, the work that we do to help men become empowered. And I think that's what Noah was talking about.  If the man has power, the woman has no power.  I think every man on the planet, when he becomes more powerful, he wants everybody around him to become more powerful. It's kind of, that's how men are. Some men are power over where we try to control things, but most guys, we just want our families to be powerful. We want our kids to thrive. We want our wives to thrive. We want our communities to thrive. And so as a man becomes more powerful, he's giving that power. It's earlier we were talking about, the whole idea of sacrifice for our family. That's what men do. And that's what we do with our power we give. But then that makes us more powerful. That sounds to me like that's what healthy masculine men want. And I think that's what the foundation of this country was built on and has been built on for a long, long time. And that feminism and all these sayings that we've seen for decades now has been trying to dismantle that and then do it. Yeah, I believe firmly in what you're saying that that's what healthy masculine men want. That's most met, well, I think that's in some, to some degree that's most men. There's a healthy element to that most men. But then you have some very toxic elements to try to undermine that. And the issue may also be an example of that. Guys who are under the thumb of their women and then they're being weaponized against other men. I think even for example, that with no commentary on women voting or not, that I think the passage of women voting in America came down to like one or two votes. And I think the final guy, the final vote was the guy who got a letter from his mother who had basically manipulated him into voting against the way he was otherwise going to vote. So I'm not opposed to the, you know, I'm not for against the outcome of that. I'm not even going to comment on it, but I remember reading about that once and I was like, wow, it could really come down to that narrow bridge and what kind of power that man's going to exert over his own thinking and in his own autonomy. And he would see, you know, as whenever he was a senator or congressman or something, that's how it played out. Which is instructive of the fact that women had political power before they got the vote. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, the men's vote was supposed to represent the entire family. Well, let's, yeah, and let's talk about that because I actually know a little bit of history about this. So here's the thing, while women didn't have the right to vote, there were many women who did vote.  You see, if you weren't a landowner, you didn't vote. Because if you were a landowner, you had skin in the game of the community you lived in.   And I've always said women have always wielded soft power, men always wield hard power. That's the balance that's there.   That they're all feminists.  Yeah, it's a revisionist history. It's a painting over that men have just been this evil force and pressing women.  The opposite. In many ways, the opposite's happened. The debt in this country in America, it's this correlation that's not causation, but the debt has skyrocketed, national debt in America since women got the right to vote. And you saw all these social programs implemented like social security and stuff. Social security itself is like over a hundred trillion dollars in debt in terms of unfunded liability. It's insane. It's way higher than the 21 or 20 trillion or whatever the government's facing. By the way, we have a super chat. This one's directed at D.D.J. Five dollars. Anthony, can I, before you jump, I really want to finish that whole statement of, because you're saying what is everybody, what do we do? And everybody in our own little corner of the world, all of us men being able to make a difference. It's like that's the key to this thing, of being able, I would love to increase my influence, but I have this little corner here I have in Colorado that's mine, you know, and I'm trying to make the change and Noah, wherever you are, you're making a change and Steve's making his change. And it's like, but it's gotta be, like we were talking about earlier, the whole idea of men working with men. And I think that's the prime thing. And to look at the outcome of that is as men become stronger, as men become empowered, as men have voices, as men become disconnected from needing to have a woman make him feel better about himself, then that's how this whole thing is gonna shift. And it's the only way it's gonna shift is men becoming stronger and more internally referenced. Yeah. Yeah, look at it, men and women are the fund, you know, we're two halves of the same species. And it's like, this is the foundation, looking at ourselves and then, exerting that out into the world. This is how we can connect and move the rule forward. Yep. Well, we have to unite kind of like all the tribes and the communities of men. We all have to work together. That's the reason I joined the Redman. People know I disagree with people sometimes. The point is, is that, you know what? The overall arching goals we all agree on. And that's the most important piece to take away because you know what? Men can disagree on issues and still forge strong relationships and strong communities. Yeah, and that's been the focus of my life's work. That wasn't how it began, it was more self-focused. I was like, I stuck with girls, I'm 17. I wanna do a meetup group and get these speakers together and you know, speakers and the attendees and we're gonna learn from each other. But that has spawned into, yeah, or it's every year that's gone by over the past 13 years of the 21 convention or recently the Redman group, it's been further and further connection. More connecting, more connecting, more connecting. First it was attendees and a few speakers, then it was more speakers, then it was connection of events that built the legacy of events that connected countries and different groups online, men's rights, Picapartis, Rep Hill, Mctown now. So yeah, it's always this further connection thing. I think it's really important. I call the Manusphere the first ever emerging movement of men and fathers. And they're organizing for the specific interest not of some specific political cause or some other civil cause other than the interests of men, boys and fathers. And that I think is really special and that's why we need to keep coming together. And that the unity is important and sometimes it's not, it's not always unicorns and rambos keeping the unity together.  But we have the Super Chat, I think we should get to. This one's focused on DDJ from Ultra Magnus. Thanks for the $5 Super Chat Ultra. DDJ is a possible to overturn alimony in child support legally if she wants to leave let her but it's the resources and children I care about. Well, I think that when you're talking about alimony there's actually work or already a legislation in the works to adjust alimony. And specifically the issue is that now that women are being court ordered to pay alimony, feminists are trying to change that. They're like, oh my gosh. And this has been something like I talked about in my book, the feminist lie hashtag shill alert but it's also something that I've talked about online on many different streams where women are the majority of the college graduates now they have a lot of the white collar jobs, men are being forced out of many of these jobs through false allegations and harassment. So when you're talking about this women are now being forced to pay a lot of alimony. And so now they're starting to change a lot because they don't want to be responsible for it. So I think that you're going to see the alimony change as far as child support is concerned that kind of dovetails. It's a little bit more of a complex answer but I'll try to distill it down as best I can. So the issue with child support is child support was meant obviously to go to the children but what governments have done is they've turned it into a lifestyle stipend for women.  So what happens is that like Title IVD of Social Security was created specifically for child support. And so what happens is that every state child support enforcement agency out there, the federal government they rob Social Security of those money, those monies and they give them to every dollar a state child support agency spends whether it's Texas or somebody else the federal government reimburses them 66 cents. So what ends up happening is these child support agencies they have to grow. That's why you hear about like these SWAT teams going after deadbeat dads. They know that they can get that Title IVD money as a free grant for their police department. So that's what they do. When it's some courts, some counties will have a judge specifically their whole calendar is child support cases. That's all they hear, right? That's because they want to have that money and they get reimbursed. I mean, you're talking $5, $6 billion a year that gets robbed from Social Security because of child support. So when you're saying is there a way to change child support technically, no, because again, I mean, you're gonna have to change the country. This is why men need to be political. This is why men have to start voting. This is why men have to be political. They have to have that political knowledge because until you have that political knowledge nothing really changes. Now I will say this, I do believe that child support as far as the way that it is determined I think is too onerous for the non-custodial parent because what it does is it destroys their standard of living. The idea is that most courts have this view that when you're dealing with child support, they say, well, the child deserves the same standard of living that the child had during the marriage which is code for bend over dad, we're gonna divorce rape you now. It's completely unrealistic because what happens is that most families have a one and a half income. You know, the man has a full-time job, the woman has a part-time job and then she's taking care of the kids. Well, when you split that family, when it splits up what happens is there's a huge issue with there's a huge issue with finances. So, you know, the man is living by himself now, the woman is living with the kids, they need some sort of whatever to survive. She has to go get a full-time job now put the kid in daycare, all those different things. And then the court says, well, but the child deserves the same standard of living. No, no, the child doesn't. And unfortunately, this is the reality is that that's not financially possible. That's a pipe dream.  So I think that the child support fight is an uphill battle, but I think the alimony fight is actually happening today. Okay. The alimony fight is all state-based too, right? It's kind of state by state, or other than- They say it's state to state, but what happens is that under federal mandates, what ends up happening is, is if the states don't pass certain laws like criminalizing child support, taking away driver's licenses, things like that, they don't get those federal dollars. So basically they're being bribed to do it. Yeah, yeah, I've seen this in the age of consent for drinking being 21. The federal government's manipulating all the states to push it to 21. Well, I've got good news for Ultra Magnus. You can. And if you go to gregdolls.com, he's been doing this for a long time. He's figured out a way to go to the court system, but this is not just you going there. Go to gregdolls.com. He's been doing this for a long period of time, helping out a lot of guys overturn child support. It can be done. It's just that things like that are not really, like I say, the information is like I say in the game is on the streets. Some things you don't need to know about, but if you go to gregdolls.com, get in touch with him, he's going to show you the steps you can take. It's not 100% proof, but he has turned over some child support cases and he can show you how to do it. So there is a way. There is definitely a solution, guys. Guys, we're hitting a closing down on the two hour mark. Then we should wrap up. And I know it's got to get going in a minute. I appreciate everyone's time today on the panel. Contributing to the content has been good. Marriage and family for the red man's been fun. I know everyone else watching this industry and this topic too. You should tune in every other Thursday at 8 p.m. Eastern for the red man group patriarchs that run by Hunter Drew and his crew. They focus more on these topics more consistently. And you can also view on the channel the recordings that they always publish after they go live. We have a few of those as well, of course, from the patriarch edition of the 20th convention we held earlier this year. You'll see count on one of those as well. And one of them is already on the channel. I was the, I think it's currently the trailer on the channel when you load it up. So we're about to round out guys. Any closing comments? So I'll close it down here in just a minute. I'd like to make one, I appreciate you guys and thank you guys for listening. And Anthony, man, you hit the hornet's nest, man. Look, that yaw mean that you put out last, the other day was so moving that the agents came over here today. Remember, we think about this, Anthony. Everything was smoothing out, everything was cool. Everything was getting good.  And then all of his minions who are coddling him and feeding him chicken soup had to come over here. So Anthony, you're doing it right. I just want to commend you.  And what Anthony put out was some real yaw mean. How do I know? Because today is a prime example that you are doing the right thing.   And I didn't even know a roller, I didn't ever watch LA Confidential 2 and when I saw what you posted, my, hey, my wig went back. I'm bald-headed, my wig went back.  Hey, all you guys that are hating on the 21, keep eating your possible burgers, thinking that zebra meat, keep eating your grass and keep doing what you do.  I'm sorry, that's all I wanted to say, bro. Thank you, Steve. Well, I think there is an inappropriate response here to what Steve said and that's this. We now live in an age where there are white nights for men and yet they say they're heterosexual. I'm just gonna put that out there.   So you look at the dislikes, that's the white night score. So you're white nighting for a dude, good job. But that said, yeah, my lawsuit's gonna be moving over, you know, moving forward, I should say. And I'm still rebuilding my social media. Those links are going to be, you know, on my website at MissAndreToday.com. And if you want to go and check out the lawsuit and you think it's something you can support, feel free to support the lawsuit on GoFundMe because we want to take it to the Supreme Court if that's where it needs to go. Oh yeah? Yeah, thanks for inviting me, Anthony. It's been great. If you want to get in touch with me to help develop your agency as a man and make you immune to masculine gammas, our male gamma imitate and also make yourself immune to women's manipulation, talk to me, I'm gonna help you with that. Cool. Yeah, thanks again for inviting me on. This is a great opportunity and I really think the whole question of can a man be red-pilled and enjoy marriage and actually do this well, absolutely. It's a pretty powerful thing and we were kind of pushing in on it, how marriage and family is some of the major building blocks of society, of community. It's like it's a big deal and if we continue to wreck that, we're gonna face some pretty powerful consequences and I love the idea that we were talking about of really empowering men to rebuild that aspect of our society. And I think it's a powerful thing for men to really latch on to and be able to say, I'm in, I can do this, let's build our world. Build it strong, it starts here. Yeah? Yeah, I love that Jack Donovan's fond of saying start the world. Start the world. Start the world. That's a very masculine thing to do that to create it and to build. Well, everyone, I appreciate your time. Look forward to seeing most of you soon in Orlando. Everybody but Noah with his twin babies. Very happy to be a man. Oh yeah, by the way, closing out personally, I'll be at Uncle on Monday. Well, for the first time, my little sister's having a baby, so that's pretty cool. Oh, cool. Congratulations. Thanks, yeah, I need to go see it. See what happens down there with it. Couple hours for me. Everyone else, thanks for tuning in today. Episode 82 of the Red Man Group on Marriage and Family. See you guys next week, 11 a.m. and I'll see many of you soon at the 21 convention. All tickets, by the way, are buy one, get one free until October 1st. So you can cut your ticket costs, cost in half, expenses and all that. And I hope to see a lot of you guys there soon. We have over 125 guys coming right now to the convention. One of the biggest ones we've ever had. See you guys soon and peace out. Cool. Insert hand wave here.