Good afternoon and thank you everyone for joining the SOAS webinar series. I'm sorry but my video isn't quite working. I think there's something wrong with the settings, so hopefully that's okay. I hope you're all able to safely enjoy the weather. This series is a joint series organised by SOAS Economics Department and the Open Economics Forum. Today we are joined by Arjun Chan who I'm sure needs no introduction. His topic today is how to build a new society after the COVID-19 crisis. But before we begin, can I please mention that you can follow us on Facebook and Twitter. I have put the links in the chat. So that's Facebook, SOAS Economics and Open Economics Forum, same for Twitter. And you can also check out our previous events. They are all recorded in the link in the chat. You can also tweet about the event using hashtag economics of COVID. And for the structure of the talk, Arjun will be talking for around 30 minutes after which we'll have another half an hour of a Q&A session. We will be collecting questions throughout the talk. So if you do have questions please just post them in the chat and we will collate them and then once the talk is done during the Q&A session we will start asking them as well. Unless there are anything else, I think Arjun Chan, if you're ready you can begin. Hi, thank you. I'm really grateful for you guys to come to listen to me on this very nice day when you could be spending time outside. We have all been through this pandemic. I mean obviously different people have different conditions in terms of living arrangements and so on. So I mean I have been relatively comfortable but it's been a strain for many people. And I think yeah, this is a crisis that is very difficult to come to terms with because it's even like preventing us from doing things that make us human, you know, being with other people, meeting new people, you know. And even just being in a crowd, you know, I grew up in Seoul, South Korea, one of the mega cities of the world and I just sometimes need to be in the crowd and we cannot do that. But apart from these aspects, the devastation that this pandemic has wreaked on the economy is mind-boggling. The IMF earlier in April predicted that the world economy is likely to shrink by 3 percent this year but that even was a huge, hugely optimistic prediction because as the report itself admitted, that projection was based on the assumption that the pandemic is brought under control in the second half of the year and we have no sign of that happening. Probably the world economy will shrink by 5-6 percent this year. Unemployment is soaring. I mean many European countries are kind of governments, they are governments that are being more willing to prop up employment by paying employment subsidies. What is known as job retention scheme in this country? Unemployment is lower but in the United States, of course, official unemployment is like 15-16 percent but if you count the number of people who have become newly unemployed, counted by this that new kind of unemployment insurance claimants, basically American unemployment rate is nearly 30 percent. I mean I cannot go into the numbers but I'm happy to talk about it if you're interested. During the Great Depression, the only other economic crisis comparable in scale to today's one, the highest unemployment rate in the US was in 1933 and it was 25 percent. So we are talking about a huge crisis and this crisis has been in many ways, let's put it this way, let's not pull our punches. It's been all-incompassing because in other crisis usually there's one bit of the economy that goes wrong, I don't know oil price goes up, housing bubble collapses and so on but this time around it's everything, it's about demand, it's about production, it's about the financial market, it's about global supply chain and as a result the kind of changes that we had to make, the kind of policies that governments have introduced to deal with this have been very, very different and comprehensive compared to previous comparable crisis. So let me first talk about a few changes that this crisis has brought about. Now these changes, their consequences and what countries do in order to deal with them will depend on how long this crisis continues and how effective the solution to it are likely to be. These are things that I don't have the expertise to predict, when is the vaccine coming out, are they going to be effective, cure if not the vaccine to deal with this disease and also that they need that they're still going to be another similar outbreak, you know all of these things are beyond my computer so I'm just kind of talking about this, assuming that this crisis will probably last another two, three, maybe five years, of course that a lot of society will try to go back to the pre-pandemic way as much as possible but I think that if we are going to be even if you wanted able to go back to the old ways that it will take a few years. Anyway so first of all that this crisis as I mentioned briefly earlier has affected the way we produce things you know that face-to-face services have been devastated, restaurants, theaters, international tourism, things that require close proximity of the provider and the customer is that they've been hit very very hard and yes different societies are trying to deal with this in different ways, you know you see these other pictures of Asian restaurants that have kind of put the tapes on the tables in restaurants, you know shields and all kinds of things that are being introduced but I think what is clear is that these services will not recover the previous levels anytime soon. This means that I mean of course that there's a general fall in demand so the level of activities in every sector is lower but this means that in relative terms sectors that produce multiple goods are likely to expand partly because it's easier to maintain the level of production in those sectors but also because when people do not spend money on these face-to-face services they will spend money on other things you know there's already signed that demand for electronic goods that is rising so I think there'll be a shift from services to manufacturing and agriculture in the coming years but also within manufacturing there are some sectors where the method of production will have to be changed you know labor-intensive industries in the US, Germany, the processing factories have been sources of the working environment is such that people work in close proximity they have to shout a lot because the environment is noisy and you know these become the hotbed of the spread of infections so you know they'll also need to restructure their production there are concerns that the global value chains that have been built in the last few decades of globalization have become too concentrated so if something goes wrong in one place the whole chain is affected I mean this is in the whole of the earthquakes in Taiwan and Japan affecting some company which supplies I don't know 70 percent of the world the obscure chemical but very valuable chemical used in the manufacture of microchips or mobile phones and so on so that you know it was already happening but now a lot of people are saying that wow we need to do something about it I think it's a fantasy as some people discuss that to reassure or bring back home but the bulk of manufacturing that have migrated to China and other developing countries I mean just cannot be done but you know I think that people are already thinking about ways to diversify the sources of procurement and production so that you know one part of the system goes wrong the other part is that able to cope also another important change that has been that some of the kind of key tenets of neoliberalism have been undermined by this crisis you know first of all this view that the less state there is the better it is has been totally exposed as countries that have had their government intervening early to test trace and isolate the infected people such as South Korea, New Zealand, Denmark, Vietnam they have minimized the spread of disease you know in Vietnam officially the death toll for COVID-19 is zero I mean even if you don't believe that particular number is very very low in contrast the UK, the US, Brazil countries that have refused to take quick public action trying to believe that the greater economic freedom that there is the better it is they have had to you know go into severe lockdown despite that have produced a huge number of infected people and death you know I mean when these numbers keep climbing they just have become statistics but I just don't understand how in the UK in the US in Brazil people think it is okay to have hundreds of people die every day if not thousands you know I said the death toll was zero in Vietnam in South Korea is that despite it being one of the countries that got it the earliest the death toll is still below 300 you know in the UK that even now I mean there are days when that number of people die in a day you know so that it has exposed the total failure of this less effort approach when it comes to issues like this also what countries have done to deal with this crisis in the at least short to medium term but if not in the long term have basically totally destroyed this neoliberal article of faith that the best thing that the government can do is to provide law and order and invest in the social infrastructure and maybe a bit of basic education you know now the UK government is that through this follow scheme paying 80% of salaries of billions of workers although this is supposed to wind down over time you know the German government that government which is so famous for physical conservatism basically abolished this law that put the ceiling on public debt because that the German government realized that they just cannot manage this in compliance of that law you know the many governments are you know subsidizing and lending at the subsidized interest rate many many companies some governments are talking about that issue in government bond with negative interest rate you know every convention wisdom in the neoliberal playbook has been that destroyed thirdly and that probably a bit more even more importantly this crisis has made us think what is that really important you know in the neoliberal system of thinking there is I mean that question doesn't even exist you know because in that system of thinking some things value is basically determined by the market I mean this has been one of the key deep market economy they have argued that there is no ethical system that can tell you what is more important what is less important you know all these ideas about you know the productive and unproductive labor that the classical and the Marxist economies that struggle with you know these are all nonsense is if someone is that valuable the market will make sure that that person gets paid better and when progressive but economists that try to argue that there are some services that are essential that are part of human rights you know market economists are poof poof the idea but now I mean that the UK government is talking about key workers you know the American government is talking about essential employees and most of them are people who in the market paradigm were not very valuable people because these were people like medical doctors at the exception here but you know nurses you know care home workers you know people working in supermarkets delivery people you know people who have worked at low wages and they will acquire the logical market economics that who are not very valuable for society but now we realize that without these people the society cannot be sustained we have also realized more broadly the importance of care work you know and the unpaid care work and childcare household management mostly done by women these have been I mean literally valued at zero because that is not marketed now we realize that without these that care economy and reproductive sector however you may call it it society cannot even exist you know and finally I think that this crisis has made us realize that like this basically has told us that unless everyone is safe no one is safe you know I mean in the US for example because it has very weak welfare state and weak labor rights you know a lot of workers basically couldn't take a sick leave if they were ill because if they don't work they don't get paid you know and then these people had to go out and make a thing and then they were contributing to the spread of the disease and when something like this happens there is not like I don't know some fancy cancer drug which are very expensive and only which people can buy and perhaps survive the cancer everyone else dies I mean this kind of less 80 90 percent of the population is vaccinated you cannot even if you are most powerful the richest people you cannot avoid this thing and I think that also taking the collective action to slow down the spread of disease which has made very important differences and also in the process realizing that if we all kind of reduce our activities you know cities like New Delhi that which have never seen really clear sky for many years that can have the blue sky you know that all of these have also made people realize that we should and could do a lot more to fight climate change I think that they're having these big shifts the necessary reassessment of the production system undermining of neoliberal making people really think that these are more important in our life and the realization that we are all bound in a common destiny I mean these things are going to fundamentally influence the way that we design new society after this crisis also at the I'll be brief on this aspect at the global level I think this has been quite an interesting experience because you know when you when you look at how different you see that actually for once that there's no clear relationship between our country's level of income and how they have managed this you know I just told you about Vietnam you know I mean country whose pocket income is like not even 5 percent that of the United States I mean has completely controlled the disease and and the US the UK countries that used to lecture other countries on how to run their society what kind of values they should uphold how to manage the government I mean they have been shown to be in complete disarray I think that this that that will be an opportunity where actually a lot of developing country people overcome this inferiority complex that imperialism colonialism and racism have ingrained in many people's mind over the last few centuries you know so-called superior societies have seen tens of thousands of deaths you know Vietnam, Kerala, India, Ethiopia I mean countries that was very very poor or other societies they have managed to contain this disease you know this is that that going to change the way developing a few people perceive the so-called advanced country what are so advanced about them you know when they are willing to you know let tens of thousands of people die so that I don't know the pops that can make more money you know anyway so how do we rebuild the society I mean I have a lot of answers well my answers that that that that question have already been contained in my analysis of the crisis itself but first of all I see all about a common destiny and there's a much more kind of demand for much greater demand for more solidaristic way of managing just I mean partly coincidentally that we've also seen the rise of anti-racist movement in the US and around the world so I think that we should use this as an occasion so establishing in countries that don't have it but also strengthening the universal welfare state that we have in some countries using this as an occasion to push further for climate change actions using this as an occasion to you know push back this reactionary racist forces I think that that kind of sorry those kind of things that are now in many people's mind I mean perhaps a lot of people those are yeah ideally the things that we want to have but we cannot but now we know that we can and indeed if you look at different countries countries that have taken a more solidaristic approach to this pandemic otherwise that have done better and then that we will need to rethink our priorities I mean not just at the individual level but at the social level you know in Britain we had this weird Thursday evenings for a while when we clap for the NHS workers while the government was not willing to pay even a single more penny to them that kind of thing has to change I mean we need to have the confidence to say that yes there are things that are more fundamental that are more important that are not necessarily going to be rewarded by the market and if the market wouldn't really the society has to find a way to make the people working in those things that are more rewarded you know including the people who do unpaid care work at home we need to rethink the work-life balance that we have started to kind of rethink as an experience of the kind of long periods of working from home for many people and having seen the pandemic which a lot of scientists say is in a way an inevitable consequence of human encroachment in nature we need to rethink our balance with nature which is that you know basically that due to unequal nature many of our societies you know I mean there are a lot of countries where you have these farmers doing you know slash and burn and kind of encroaching into nature when there are a lot of lands that are owned by landlords so we need to rethink all these priorities finally we will have to you know rethink the production system the global supply chain partly because of this pandemic but you know no one thinks that this will be the only disease that is going to hit human society a lot of us agree that increasing acceleration of climate change will create many other crises I mean maybe not pandemic but in other forms extreme weather events and so on who knows what other crises are in store so we need to you know rebuild the system to have more if you like resilience and roughness because just think about the airplanes oil tankers you know because they can produce disastrous outcomes if something doesn't work all these systems including that also things like electricity grid they have ways to absorb shock isolated the isolated shocks and quickly bring backups and so on and the economy will also have to be redesigned in that kind of way so to summarize three things one is you know the approach to economy and society including the expansion of the universal welfare state and inclusion of the so-called care economy in our thinking second rethinking our priorities and thirdly restructuring and redesigning the economic system so that it can be more robust and resilient thank you very much I cannot hear you beyond I cannot hear you oh sorry my mic was muted yeah thank you for the talk and that's very very insightful now it's the q&a session so if you have any questions please type them into the chat and we've already collated around 10 questions as well so we'll start asking them just to you for the people who joined midway I will re-link the Facebook and links as well and the past events okay so the first question that we had was from Malik the question was the paradigm shift is globally expected post-covid 19 economic and social crisis how do you think the community will likely tackle the generic societal issues and do you expect universal standards of international humanitarian laws to be likely revisited wow um this is that a bit beyond me uh yeah but I think now we know that the whole community is bound in common destiny I mean it always has been but you know we now feel it more accurately and there'll be demands for kind of greater respect even for marginalized groups and so on and yeah that will create further pressure towards kind of more emphasis on universal human rights and so on however whether that actually gets translated into laws and international conventions and so on I mean it's going to be a long struggle but you know I mean to be a bit kind of forthright you know I believe that in the long run humanitarian progress is we have seen many setbacks recently you know the Trump, Bolsonaro, Brexit what have you but you know 200 years ago a lot of people especially in the Americas thought it was perfectly okay to buy and sell people you know 100 years ago Britain and many other countries put women in prison for asking for vote you know only 78 years ago you know the founding fathers of today's developing nations you know and Krumah, Kenyatta I mean these people all hunted down by the British and the French as the terrorists you know 40 years ago Margaret Thatcher famously said that anyone who thinks that there'll be a black majority rule in South Africa ever is living in a cloud cuckoo land you know but not by law but because people organized and fought for them and I think that in the long run this crisis might be an occasion for those movements to be more like galvanized and become more international and so on and have a greater chance of success I think I leave it at that I'm not an expert in this issue okay the second question was by Eleanor the question is the proliferation of misinformation on global scale is arguably a reflection of widespread mistrust in both national and international institutions and systems what do you think are the longer-term ramifications of the mistrust yeah well this has been the most corrosive consequence of the recent rise of the right the extreme right but you know I think my attitude is that we despite all this mistrust we have to invest in rebuilding trust in these institutions maybe some of the existing institutions have become so discredited they need to be scrapped I'm not against it maybe that some can be redeemed but also we could try to create that kind of global public information service you know I mean something that I mean that sounds overly idealistic but you know something that we need because the best gainers from the erosion of public trust in these public institutions is those who control the media with their money because then that if citizens do not have I don't know whatever that UN information service or some global charity that provides fact checks and so on unless that people have these trust resources you know they'll be able to be whatever that you and those who control the media including things like Facebook and so on through their money will basically be in a position to manipulate them to their benefits so I think that despite people's misgivings about you know building yet another international organization that trying to restore trust in the public institutions that have already been eroded and dilapidated I think that's the only way out because otherwise you know it becomes free for all and free for all basically means for those people with money okay I'm talking about people with money and the inequalities and this is actually a question that I wanted to ask there's a question by Tina question is the pandemic brought to light and exacerbated great structural inequalities in various societies oftentimes it takes a crisis to move and reformers forward what major interventions do you hope to see in the both developed and developing countries yeah no that's a very good yeah I mean the pandemic has revealed that you know poor people people in marginalized communities are more prone to contract the disease and die from it because of you know generally worse health that limited access to healthcare and other things that define this unequal society I think that you know the positive a positive way to respond to this is to accept that then find a way to reduce that inequality and it is already happening in some countries you know I mean I'm not usually a cheerleader for my own country South Korea you know we have so many shameful world record you know the highest suicide rate the lowest fertility rate you know I mean name it but South Korea has that this time around managed the pandemic really well first of all because it that despite this general aversion to the welfare state it has a very robust public health insurance you know so anyone who had that problems could just go and get tested and treated you know this is how that you managed to keep the death toll on the 300 you know but in that country a crucial was forced by this pandemic because you know because it controlled the health situation so well it actually didn't go into full lockdown you know but still people are wary of going out and the biggest suffers from this was these people who are running small bars restaurants karaoke bars people have seen in the famous Korean movie the parasite you know I mean people who tried to eat a living out of a chicken fried chicken joint fail save up a bit more money by working as a substitute drivers and then set up another thing cake shop and then it goes bankrupt again and you end up in semi-basement apartment folding pizza boxes you know so these people were very hard hit and and now the country is actually I was actually quite surprised talking about introducing universal employment insurance scheme so basically it doesn't matter what your job used to be I mean at the moment unless you work for a decent-sized company and have worked for them I forget that the exact time period three months six months you don't get the unemployment insurance now having seen this that problem the country is now talking about introducing an employment insurance that covers people who work in any type of company self-employed people the so-called platform workers you know people working in the economy so yeah I mean if it happens it will be a really progressive change and I think yeah I mean that is up to societies up to especially the citizens to demand these things that to create the systems that will yeah not only enable the country to deal with these kind of crises in the future but also more importantly that become make the society more equal now so that my point is that we have to start the discussion yeah I mean I you know we have to talk about this you know I mean that people have to keep banging on why did you keep all those claps yeah during those eight weeks in the spring to the nurses but then you didn't pay them anymore yeah I mean why is the NHS so kind of dilapidated you know we have to keep pushing for this otherwise that people in power are not going to do that okay um so following on from the um the like the employment scheme that's South Korea is doing so being career myself I was also quite surprised by how well South Korea has done and their reactions to it um hopefully I'm pronouncing your name right but a question by your your tisha um is that it has been posted by many countries the universal basic income scheme will be implemented so will it be enough in order to regain the economic damages that have been suffered uh well universal basic income I am not a fan of it the you know first of all a lot depends on how you do it you know do not forget that Milton Friedman and Friedrich von Hayek were supporters of the universal basic income yeah so basically these are people who say yeah give everyone I don't know that nine thousand pounds or whatever and they can do whatever I mean with that money they wouldn't stop to death but everything about that is that not the society's problem yeah I mean if it's that kind of universal basic income which is actually the kind of basic income supported by some of the silicon valley billionaires I'm 200 against it if it is uh the uh more progressive for my still have a problem because you know having income is one thing but also that you need the affordable high quality services yeah I mean unfortunately the supporters of the universal basic income do not address this aspect that uh very clearly you know okay so that you you convert all the say welfare entitlement you know that you get they in uh briefed yeah so the notional entitlement to your NHS service you know notional entitlement to your unemployment benefit you know the amount of child housing benefit convert them only to cash and give it to you and then how are people going to buy this I mean it's the government then going to wash off his hands and say now you can go into the private market and buy it I think that it'll be a disaster because that that many of these services are basically provided by the government which is not seeking profit I mean of course a lot of it has that become privatized by stealth but at least in theory you know these are the NHS and other bodies that provide these social services they are not how to make money and also that they pool the customers and can get the big discounts that there's a scale economy provision so instead of single hospitals going to a pharmaceutical company saying we want to buy diabetes drugs for 5 000 people the NHS can go to these companies and say we want diabetes diabetes drugs for 17 million people I mean the count kind of discount that you get I mean it's that uh in totally different planet you know so that the unless that you preserve this public provision these services are going to be very expensive actually even when you give them the same amount of money they will be able to buy less and this is what's happening in the US I mean the US spends 17% of GDP on healthcare compared to 8 12% in other advanced countries and it has the worst worst health record in the rich world I mean part of it is of course because of greater inequality but a lot of it is because you know the treatments are expensive I mean that COVID-19 test which you can get for free in South Korea in some American communities you have had to pay $3 000 to get the test so I don't know I mean I cannot go into that any more detail but when it comes to basic income please do not just look at the demand side but also look at the supply side I mean okay that whatever amount of income they're going to give you but then how are they going to provide those basic social services some proposals are progressive but some are not some haven't even thought about this so you need to look at the both aspects okay thank you so the next question was by Cassie I'm sorry that skips it the question is do you think that this is an opportunity for society to change the way it operates if so how if not do you think that oh so if not who do you think are going to be the main losers what type of companies might we see disappear yeah I've already kind of indirectly answered many of these questions by Cassie thank you for your question Cassie yes I think you know opportunity is literally what it is called an opportunity even if that is an opportunity if you don't make something out of it is not going to produce anything by itself yeah so I think that it's very important for citizens to demand organize talk about it yeah I mean how we want to change the society you know having seen that actually we don't all need to be in the office to be to become efficient workers can we change the way we organize work you know that can we work more often from home if not completely I mean can we in that way reduce the greenhouse gas because a lot of these things that need to be discussed but as I say I mean unless we make demands that voice our concerns it's not going to happen now in terms of different industries yes I mean the biggest losers will be that involved face-to-face services yeah so this will be a huge problem for many developing countries especially because a lot of developing countries rely heavily on tourism now that's going to be dead for a few years also in developing countries we have this that huge informal sector menu which involve face-to-face services so when these people do not have customers how are they going to cope so in terms of the industry mix I think it will depend on the country but broadly speaking this will negatively affect poor developing countries with big service sector especially informal sector and countries like the US and the UK which rely a lot on services and countries that have greater strength in manufacturing and the material production are going to be relatively better off so that's my prediction okay I think we've got time for maybe three or four more questions so I want to skip to one of them by Simon so Simon's question is you mentioned that this crisis have revealed the shortcomings of market fundamentalism and that the state is not going to increase increasing intervene in and steer markets in the future his question is do you think MMT or Keynesian economic policies will dominate in the post-corona years to come? Well I'm not on macroeconomics but yes I mean those kind of macroeconomic thinking will become more influential I wouldn't say dominant because you know the current macroeconomic approach a weird mixture of you know fiscal conservatism and monetary abandon you know it is that dominant because it serves the powerful interest so I don't know whether you know the rise of Keynesianism modern monetary theory which is that that certain will be sufficient to replace the existing orthodoxy but not just in terms of macroeconomic policy I mentioned that is going to see change I mean we are going to see big changes in the way that in the way that we manage the welfare state which is implications for taxation policies we are going to see big changes in the structure of production which will have ramifications for industrial policy and trade policy so yeah either be in all kinds of areas and hopefully I mean it will also spill into our approach to fighting climate change so you know that is not going to be just a macroeconomic area that the conventional wisdom and prevailing orthodoxy are being hit as across all areas you know reflecting partly the old encompassing nature of this crisis so I would say that there will be significant changes but once again I mean that whether uneconomic theory becomes dominant or at least widely accepted is in big part a political question so a lot will depend on how things unfold and how the political elite respond to this. I think Hansel had a very similar question as well because her question was about how do you think the capitalism might change in the future and how people might react to capitalism well yeah I think it's not how it will change but how we have to change it you know because I mean given the existing distribution of wealth income and power unless ordinary citizens that progressive people get organized and push the government they are not going to change that things automatically we've seen that after the 2008 financial crisis so for about like nine months they embraced the canes and then the bailed out banks and so on and they were going to reform the financial system you know after two years that was more or less back to the old game and then things got even worse because in some countries like the US and the UK the right wing governments were elected and then they you know in the US basically Donald Trump invalidated many of the reforms that were introduced to the financial market of the Obama after the crisis so you know if we just don't keep fighting I mean it's not going to change so yes I mean there are new opportunities you know new solidarities emerging new ways of thinking but you know how they all will gel together and that translated to collective action public policies institutional changes that's you know I mean in a way that are up to us everyone yeah okay I think uh the last two questions I think I'm going to put it together and it's by Murray and Francis so Murray's question was you've spoken about the vulnerabilities and change of global value chains do you think we will see a shift in mainstream theory and practice from a global free trade and Francis's question was again on developing countries being locked into a primary commodity trap for a long time and how do you think the pandemic will offer whether a way out or a slightly different change yeah yeah well let's start with the primary commodity yes of course a lot of developing countries are dependent on primary commodities and especially those that are dependent on oil have been devastated because oil demand has collapsed as a result of pandemic yes I mean that that kind of episode shows that how it is important for developing countries to diversify well I mean to reason with point that production structure to avoid this kind of easier said than done I mean Ecuador under Rafael Korea tried for about 10 years to shift the production structure the pool of the oil was so strong and by the end of his term it that was a bit lower but the dependence was still very high now in the next few years because of the pandemic you know primary commodities being material products might actually become more important in relative terms as I keep saying the overall level of demand will be lower so I'm not saying that countries that produce manufacturing or the primary commodity will be able to sell more in general but you know in relative terms at least primary commodities are going to fare better than the services now the point once again is that that is service going to be a short relief I mean what happens in the long run will really depend on what you do with the income that you earn from primary commodity and yeah luckily a lot of countries have been thinking about industrializing using more active industrial policy and so on so something might that happen in some countries and yeah some countries already doing some very impressive things you know Ethiopia has that converted a lot of its government making facilities basically investments from East Asia South Korea China Taiwan into factories are producing personal protection equipment for the medical staff you know it has converted this passenger jet that planes into cargo planes and is doing more cargo business so yeah I mean even relatively poor country can that make this as an opportunity to upgrade this economy so yeah I just hope that countries okay I know that the current situation is so difficult I mean it's difficult to think about the future but you know they really need to think about what they can do you know if you have been reliant on tourism heavily I mean okay I mean if you're Caribbean island state there might be very little that you can do but if you are some country you know then that you will have to a think about ways to make tourism safer in whatever way but be more importantly you need to find a way to get out of tourism and start doing something else not finally linking that into the reorganization global value chain uh yeah I think there is a widespread recognition that this requires that reorganization of global value chains but you know first of all in many cases unless this crisis really persists for three four five years I mean as soon as things become okay people will just say well let's forget about that you know because that reorganizing the value chain requires that investment you know hard work let's just go back to the old ways you know so it's not certain that that kind of organization will happen and even if it happens it'll happen only in uh limited areas you know because even if the the US wants to bring all the lost manufacturing production in what it considers key sectors back home they cannot do it you know I mean they don't have the supply network they don't have the correct infrastructure they don't have the the necessary the supply of technicians you know I mean even if it wanted Apple cannot bring factories in China to California to make the mobile phones you know so you know that there'll be only a limited degree of reorganization but yes I mean in the long run that the countries and industries that do it you know more the sustainable way making the network more robust more dispersed yeah more resilient will reap the benefit but let's not underestimate the kind of the seduction of immediate gains you know so I think that despite all this whole of the loot the final reorganization will be rather limited I'm not saying they shouldn't be done but my guess is they will be done in a limited way because every time there's some disaster when there was the famous Fukushima you know the earthquake the the problem with the nuclear reactor you know there were some sectors that so basically the end of the supply for raw materials that sort of intermediate materials because there was one Japanese company that was supplying 70% of the world that that kind of thing every time that happens like the earthquake in Taiwan several years before everyone says oh yeah we have to change the supply chain that make it less concentrated you know less complicated and then you know two years later we are back to square one so I'm not to show how much change will happen to the global value chains but yes I think the taste for a global free trade be diminished somewhat but you know I think on that we should really change the conversation because that you know that we especially those who are concerned with the fate of developing countries like the people that saw us we need to talk about the the you know the international trade you know completely different way I mean it's not just a simple dichotomous problem of free trade versus protectionism you know there are many different ways of organizing international trade you know there are many ways of regulating trade protectionism is only one way you know we do it with foreign direct investment we do it with the government procurement programs we do it with that in the case of the US defense policies so you know we need to change the conversation in a more nuanced way but I do not have time to talk about that at this point thank you I cannot hear you oh sorry I think that's the end thank you for the talk so that concludes the Q&A and the talk just before we go I know we overran by quite a bit but if you are to summarize your talk about what covid is going to be like after sorry what the economy is going to be like after covid in maybe 30 seconds and how would you do it oh no we have to work to make it what we want I mean that is not going to automatically happen but yeah in an ideal world we want greater social protection greater recognition of the importance of the care economy restructuring of our production and supply networks into something more dispersed resilient and robust but you know whether these things are necessarily going to happen I mean this is my wish list but it's said that often all of us everyone to demand another world then fight for it okay really thank you very much and before we leave I would like to just do one last advertising of our Facebook and Twitter I've just posted in the chat and also the webinar series will carry on so there is one next week on Monday that's by our very own soas and people by Bassani Balioi and Gillard Isaac and that's going to be on the perspectives of covid from South Africa's view and thank you all very much and thank you to Hajin Chang for doing the talk and thank you for soas and the opening remarks for and for organizing this as well thank you thank you


Here's who's gonna make playoffs. Green Bay, Minnesota. I think so too. Really? I like. I do. What is it, seven per side? Box. We just had a hell of a conversation about the Saints there. I know, I try. I don't know. We just had a hell of a conversation about the Saints there. I mean, I don't know. Saints make it. First year coach. NFC East, ah, who cares? One of them. Okay. And then only two from the NFC West, I guess. Is that what I'm saying? So if I give it to the Vikings, then I'm only saying two out of the NFC West. And if I give one to the Saints, you know, which would make a lot of sense, then we're taking, you know, there is, that is the NFC does seem gettable though. Oh yeah. I'll do the AFC. Okay. So you got, so you got the bangles gonna make it. Raven's gonna make it. Colts are gonna make it. Well. Definitely.  That's true. An astronaut and Marvel superheroes are coming to training camp. Oh, that's true. Marvel superheroes are coming to training camp.


Ladies and gentlemen, tonight in Miami, Florida, a group of men are gathered together for their annual conference For their day in day out service to the public Dragnet honors the 58th annual conference of the International Association of Chiefs of Police The story you're about to hear is true The names have been changed to protect the innocent Fatima cigarettes best of all king-size cigarettes brings you drag met You're a detective sergeant you're assigned a homicide detail a wealthy retired businessman suddenly disappears You've got two possibilities to work on suspicion of suicide Suspicion of foul play There's no lead to the man's whereabouts Your job Find him The latest Fatima sales report shows Thousands and thousands of king-size cigarette smokers are switching to Fatima more and more smokers coast to coast Are finding in Fatima the difference is quality you see Fatima Contains the finest domestic and Turkish tobaccos superbly blended and Fatima is extra mild with a much different much better flavor and aroma You'll find Fatima gives you all the advantages of extra length plus Fatima quality Which no other king-size cigarette has Fatima best of all king-size cigarettes Definitely the best quality in its class, but the same price as the cigarette. You're now smoking next time insist on the best Buy king-size Fatima in the distinctive golden yellow package Drag net the documented drama of an actual crime for the next 30 minutes in Cooperation with the Los Angeles Police Department You will travel step-by-step on the side of the law through an actual case transcribed from official police files From beginning to end from crime to punishment drag net is the story of your police force in action It was Wednesday February 6th was cold in Los Angeles. We're working the day watch out a homicide detail My partner's been Romero the boss is that brown chief of detectives my name's Friday I was on the way back from the record bureau and it was 11 18 a.m. When I got to room 42 Homicide Joe hi She show up yet. Yeah a couple of minutes ago. She's waiting for us now in the next room. You talk to her at all No, it seems to be a nice enough woman.  This is miss Banner. Hello. I'm sorry I wasn't home when you stopped by yesterday sergeant. I got the card you left though I called in as soon as I got home. Well, thanks for coming in miss Banner We have a few questions. We'd like to ask you won't take very long We have a communication from a Gladys Dylan back in New York miss Banner It's about her brother a Chester Dylan. We understand you rented his home from him. I don't know it's an avenue Mr. Dylan. Well, yes, I've got a two-year lease on the house. I rented it from him last November Well, according to the letter we got from mr. Dylan sisters. She's worried about him She hasn't heard from him in some time. You any idea where we could contact him? Well the last I heard He left on a trip to New York. That was about eight weeks ago I'd say you see I usually sent the check for the rent the apartment he had here and when he left on his trip He told me to hold on to the rent checks and he'd collect them when he got back How long did he say he'd be gone? I don't remember definitely I think he said four or five months. He didn't leave any forwarding address any place you could contact him back He's no he didn't he just wanted to get away didn't want to be bothered with anyone He wasn't feeling very well. He's very depressed poor man. Well, why was that ma'am? Do you know his wife died? Just a few months ago, you know, no ma'am. We didn't know all we got from his sister was that she hadn't heard from Dylan She was worrying. She didn't give us any other information. Oh, yes This is Dylan died and last September. I think it was poor man felt terrible about it Couldn't seem to get over it. That's why he rented the house to me reminded him too much of her. Yes, ma'am I understand lovely home they have mr. Dylan said he really didn't want to rent it But he couldn't stand being alone in the house was a large place, you know Yes, ma'am. We checked with the people living in the house now. We understand you leased the place to them last month I subleased it. Yes, you see it just got too big for me was nice at first But it got to be an awful lot of work. I rented it to this family and took a smaller house down the street Would you happen to know any of mr. Dylan's friends in the city miss banner anyone? We could contact who might know where we can locate him. I don't know We didn't seem to have any friends he and his wife had only been in the city a year before she died He was retired, you know, yes, ma'am. We talked to some of the neighbors out there. They couldn't tell us much about him Maybe some of the people he did business with might know something if he tried the neighborhood bank out there I know that's where mr. Dylan had his account. No, ma'am. We haven't shot. I can give you the bank's address It's about all though. That's the only contact, you know, I'm afraid so. Yes I didn't know much about mr. Dylan's private affairs whenever I talked to him It seemed the only thing he had on his mind was his wife's death. It couldn't seem to get over it Seems like he didn't want to get over it You mentioned that when you leased his home mr. Dylan took an apartment. Do you happen to have that address miss banner? Well, I don't have it with me now, but I have it at home I can call in and give it to you if you like if you would please certainly Well, thank you very much miss banner You have our card and when you hear anything at all from mr. Dylan, we'd appreciate it if you'd call it and surely I'll call you right away You think something could have happened to him. Well, it's possible. We don't know all we have is the letter from his sister That's him kind of strange doesn't it? Wasn't feeling too well. I wondered why he hadn't contacted me about sending the rent money to him It's such a nice man mr. Dylan. I certainly hope nothing's happened to him Well, you say he was very depressed about his wife's death, ma'am Would you say that it was getting to be a little abnormal with him? Maybe well, I wouldn't know about that sergeant But I didn't know he brooded about it all the time. He felt that he'd lost everything Didn't seem to want to go on. Mm-hmm. He ever give an indication that maybe might take his own life I mean all this brooding over his wife. Well, no nothing definite just depressed and moody all the time. Oh Now that I remember it the last time I saw him. He did say something kind of funny Yes, ma'am. What was that? It was the day before he left We were talking about the rent money and I asked him if I couldn't send it to him He got kind of a strange look on his face. Yeah, he said where I'm going. I won't need the money The day before we called on Lucille Banner for an interview a letter had been received from a Miss Gladys Dylan in Elmira, New York Her request was routine. There was one of thousands of similar letters received every year by police departments all over the country Each one of them has to be worked out to the satisfaction of all parties concerned The person who's reported missing and the person looking for them. It's an enormous job requiring thousands of man-hours annually Like the dozens of other investigations handled by the police officer some of the men happily some of them in tragedy Whatever the result the finding of a lost person is just as important a function of your local police department as any other investigation Gladys Dylan hadn't heard from her brother recently. She was worried about him. She asked us to investigate Our initial interview with Lucille Banner the woman who'd rented Chester Dylan's home failed to yield much of a lead as to Whereabouts the only source of additional information she could offer was the neighborhood bank where Dylan had his account One o'clock that afternoon Ben and I drove out to interview the manager of the bank a mr. Harrison Yes, that's right. Mr. Dylan's had his account with us ever since he came to Los Angeles I know him quite well. Is there something you'd like to know about him? Yes, sir There is we had a request from his sister in New York. She'd like to look in well I'm pretty sure his account still open here a matter of fact. I'm positive I'll have one of the clerk get his file. All right. Thank you, sir That reminds me almost forgot. Yeah, what's that? I gotta get to the bank tomorrow for sure payment on my cars a day past you already only got two mavens left I mean, you're doing fine. I got another eight months to go. I'm not so fine Two more payments to go and now the wife wants a new one never fail. Here. We are sergeant Just as I thought Mr. Dylan's account is still open. There have been any recent deposits or withdrawals on the account This is I thought nothing since he left on his trip that last withdrawal date was November 27th He mentioned to you that he was going on a trip. Did he yes I think he said he was going back to New York more or less a vacation trip His wife died recently. He didn't take it too well. Yes, we understand Did he leave any instructions about his account with you? Mr. Harrison any address you could contact him at if you had to No, he didn't leave any instructions with me. No address just a vacation trip He said he didn't expect to be gone too long because he mentioned how long it would be Five or six weeks. I think that's what he said I happened to talk to him about it because at the time he made quite a sizable withdrawal I thought maybe he was a little unhappy with our service. How much was it withdrawal, sir? see Here it is November 27th. He withdrew $2,400. Was that in cash or in traveler's checks, do you know that? Now it shows here that it was in cash. Mr. Harrison you said a minute ago that you knew Mr. Dylan pretty well Yes, that's right. He used to stop and chat with me whenever he'd come in the bank. That was usually once a week I didn't know him socially though. You mentioned he seemed to take his wife's death pretty hard, Jim What would you say his mental condition was last time he saw him? All right, I'd say just after his wife's death. He wasn't in very good shape brooded about it quite a bit And he began to pull out of it seemed to be in a fairly good frame of mind Planned this vacation. He was looking forward to it. I see Why do you ask? Is something wrong? No, sir. Not that we know of routine check. That's about the same Does Dylan have any other real estate besides the house on Rawson Avenue? Would you have no that? Not to my knowledge. No, he has no other business connections in Los Angeles Here are all his references right here See most of them are charge accounts and so forth I remember the time he opened his account with us. He told me he was retired He and his wife came out here for their help. Do you have any relatives out here? Do you know Mr. Harrison? No, from what I understand both of their families are in the east They don't have any children according to his application very few relatives And since Dylan was in here last november to make that withdrawal you've had no communications from at all, didn't I? No, sir. I haven't What seems to be the trouble you have an idea something might be wrong? Nothing definite. No, sir We've been told about his feeling depressed over his wife's death and there was some indication He might possibly have done away with himself after what you've told us. It doesn't seem too likely I don't know. I wouldn't like to commit myself as I say he did seem to be getting over it I didn't know him that well though might be entirely possible He was devoted to mrs. Dylan. Maybe he could have taken his own life. I don't know Well, it leaves a big question to answer doesn't it? What's that? Why do you need the 2400 dollars to do it? 125 p.m. We continued interviewing the bank manager mr. Harrison, but he was unable to come up with any further leads Before we left the bank he gave us a complete list of all of chester dylan's references We gave him our card and he told us he would pass along immediately any information he might get on the whereabouts of mr. Dylan 145 we went back to the office where we got a call from lucille banner She gave us dylan's last known address and we drove out to check it It was an apartment court in the pico-crenshaw area We talked to the manager and she told us that dylan had moved out three months before on november 22nd He told her that he was moving in with a close friend of his and he gave her his forwarding address It turned out to be a single story frame cottage located in one of the older residential districts of the city The name on the mailbox read raymond l. Schaefer We rang the bell and a man who identified himself as raymond schaefer Ushered us into a small living room He told us that he was from the same town in the east that the dylan's came from and that he was a long time Friend of theirs. No, I haven't seen chester for months last november I think it was as last time I saw him. You see at that time dylan was living in the apartment down in the pico-crenshaw area Yeah, that's right. You mean he never came here to live with you No, it's just like I told you before he talked about moving in here with me But he never did having any idea where he is Well, he gave you a name here as a forwarding address schaefer if you've been getting his mail Yeah, matter of fact, I have he told me he was going to do that Never came to pick it up though seemed funny to me. You're still getting his mail here. Is that right? Yeah, it's still coming not much of it Maybe a letter a week mostly bills and advertising This list of names you've given us sir. These are all the people in the east mr Dillam was acquainted with people he might contact in this trip back there, is that right? That's all of them As far as I know he hadn't been back there yet though. How do you know that? I got a letter from my sister gert a couple of days ago if chester was in town gert would have known about it He would have been sure to stop by and see her I wish I could help you tell you the truth and get a little worried about him myself Well, here's one more question mr schaefer You know if mr. Dillam was in the habit of carrying large sums of money around with him No, I don't think so chester was pretty cautious that way. It wasn't too free with a dolly, you know Would you happen to know if he had a large sum of money with him the last time you saw him? No, if he did have he didn't mention it actually You can't think of anything else that might give us a lead on mr. Dillam's worry about anything at all I think I've told you everything I wish there was something I could tell you that it helped You sure hope nothing's happened to it. Yes, sir Now would you mind showing us that mail you're holding for them, please? Oh sure, sir. You're right over here In the desk There you are. That's all of it. Mm-hmm. Thank you Anything joe No, not much bills circulars There's one with a new york postmark El maya probably from his sister another one only three days old from the union department store a couple more earlier dates on it That's about it. You know copy down the return addresses on fire Mr. Schaefer, yeah This suitcase with a desk here initials on it cld. Yeah CLD is that your bank shaper? Oh, no, I forgot to tell you a chest to let that here one day Huh, how was that? Well, that was one day just before he was going to leave on his vacation And he brought over here and said he'd like to leave it with me forgot to mention it to you You bring anything else with him? Yeah, he brought another suitcase with him just like this one I got in the other room He said he wanted to leave him here while he was on his vacation. I'm sorry. I forgot to mention it Maybe you forgot something else Schaefer. What most people take their suitcases on a trip, don't they? 2 30 p.m. We continued questioning Raymond Schaefer We opened the two suitcases labeled with the initials of chest or dylan and found an assortment of personal items Which Schaefer told us belonged to dylan and his late wife Small pictures cigarette boxes books similar articles, which apparently would not be taken on a vacation trip None of them were of any great value After we left Schaefer's home, we checked him through our eye and found he had no criminal record We checked further with friends and acquaintances of both men and found nothing to indicate that Schaefer wasn't any way involved in the disappearance of jester dylan 3 30 p.m. We called the office and found that there'd been no answers so far to the broadcast and missing persons bulletins that we'd gotten out on dylan We started checking your references given us by the bank First was the union department store It was located on main street in the south end of town We checked with the credit department to see what information we could get from them Yes, there's the file on the dylan's right here. Mr. Ellen Sarah j on rosson avenue. Yes, ma'am That's one. What information would you like sir? We're trying to locate mr. Dillon, ma'am Have you had any recent change of address on that account? No, we haven't if they moved, you know Well, we believe so we don't know his present address though Well, we do have an outstanding bill of theirs. I know this sent them several form letters We've been trying to contact them ourselves. Have there been any recent charges on that account, you know, let's see Nothing too recent. No Last charge was made on december 5th Yes, thursday december 5th That's a couple of weeks after he disappeared. Yeah, that's right. What was that charge for ma'am? What did mr. Dillon buy? Oh, mr. Dillon didn't buy anything Megapine the slip was signed by mrs. Dillon You are listening to dragnet authentic stories of your police force in action If you smoke king-size cigarettes Listen to fatimas amazing new offer buy a pack of fatimas Enjoy their extra mildness and superbly blended tobaccos if you don't like fatimas better than the king-sized cigarette You're now smoking return the pack with the unused fatimas and we'll give you your money back plus postage We make this amazing offer because we believe fatima is the best of all king-sized cigarettes smokers all over the country are confirming this every day Here is the latest state-by-state report State one fatima sales up 72 percent two sales up 54 percent three sales up 107 percent four sales up 192 percent and those are just a few Remember if you're not convinced fatima is better than your present king-sized cigarette Just return the pack with the unsmoked fatimas before december 1st and get your money back plus postage Fatima box 37 new york one Five fatima best of all king-sized cigarettes Four 15 p.m. thursday february 7th as soon as the clerk in the credit department at the union department store showed us the sales slip With the late mrs. sarah dylan signature on it. We had the date on the sales slip double checked immediately The date as shown on the slip was correct beyond any doubt december 5th That was a little more than two and a half months after sarah dylan had died Who the person was who forged her signature or why they'd forged it? We had no idea The amount of the charge purchase as shown on the sales slip was for $418 All of it for women's clothing We attempted to check with the sales girl who handled the purchase a laura van curt, but we were told it was her day off We called her home. They told us that she was gone for the day and couldn't be located They said she'd be at work the following morning 4 40 p.m. Ben and i took the sales slip with the forge signature on it and drove back to the office We went directly to forgery detail briefed them on our findings and gave them the sales slip Then we drove back to the home of the dylan's friend raymond schaefer and checked through the two suitcases there We came up with a small photo of mrs. Dillon along with exemplars of her handwriting as well as her husbands Which we found in an autograph album in one of the suitcases The handwriting samples were checked against the signature on the sales slip, but neither of them matched The work of compiling a list of all known female forgery suspects was begun immediately The following morning ben and i went back to the union department store where we interviewed the sales girl laura van curt Who'd handle the purchase. Yes. I remember making the sale officer I'm not too sure about the woman who bought the things though. I mean what she looked like Well, could you try to describe her force mrs. Van curtges as well as you can remember she had light brown hair I'm pretty sure that Not too old maybe in her late 30s early 40s She was a plain-looking woman Five foot five six thin as I remember She wore glasses. I remember that too. I see you got that picture mrs. Dillon there ben Oh, yeah, yeah here you are Would you take a look at this picture miss? Now does that look like the woman you waited on No, no, that's not her The woman I waited on was much younger She had light brown hair too, not gray Thin face I think And she wore glasses. I'm sure that you remember if there was a man with a miss van curt or was she alone? No, she was alone Now that I remember there was something very different about the glasses she wore I don't know if that's important or not. What about her glasses? They were horn rimmed as I remember very light color And there was some metal work along the top edge of the frame Very smart-looking Gold metal all along the top light brown hairs light bill thin face late 30s early 40s Were light horn rimmed glasses and gold metal on the frame. Yes, that's right Check me if I'm wrong joe that description time familiar That's what I was thinking horn rimmed glasses metal work on The woman who came to see us at the office. Yeah, you got it lucille banner Ben and I went back to the office and had lucille banner checked through our eye She had no criminal record Then we drove to the home on ralston avenue, which chester dillon had leased to lucille banner and which she interned sublet We obtained a copy of the lease which the banner woman had with the current tenants and which bore her signature We brought the copy of the lease downtown gave it to don myron handwriting and asked him to compare lucille banner signature With the signature on the sales slip that we'd obtained from the union department store 15 minutes later he called us at the office with a result. Yeah, don That's so You're right. Thanks a lot. What do you get says there's no question in his mind. Yeah, both signatures match perfectly What the reason was behind lucille banners forging the signature of mrs. Dillon on the sales slip we didn't know Whether or not it had any connection with the disappearance of chester dillon. We didn't know As soon as we got the handwriting report from don mayer banner I left the office immediately and drove to the bungalow, which the banner woman was renting on ralston avenue It was a block down the street from the dillon house lucille banner wasn't at home But a neighborhood gardener trimming the lawn in front of her house told us that she was expected back shortly The gardener who identified himself only as julio volunteered that he also did gardening work for miss banner when she occupied the dillon home He'd also worked for the dillons when they lived in the house He told us he liked the dillons quite a bit, but that he didn't have much use for miss banner He seemed to be up on all the news in the neighborhood He trimmed the hedges of the lawn with hand shears as we talked to him Can you tell us anything about mr. Dillon and miss banners julio? How'd they seem to get along? You know they get along all right, I guess when I worked at the big house down there from his banner That's before she moved. I would see mr. Dillon there He would be at the house maybe once two times a week Miss banner would ask him to come over to dinner for him. Miss banner likes him. I think mr. Dillon I don't know about him. He wasn't feeling so good still thinking about his wife Here I finish up this clipping now There all done you mentioned you don't like miss banner very much julio. Why is that she ever give you a reason not to like her She's a little crazy I think funny woman when I used to work at the big house for her in the garden She would watch me all the time follow me all around tell me to do all kind of crazy jobs She gave me good play though. So I do them. How do you mean julio? What kind of crazy job the compost box for fertilizer You know, she wanted me to build one for her in the backyard. That was down the street the Dillon house Crazy woman. She wanted me to build the compost box in the greenhouse Have a special place mark for whoever heard of that to build a compost box inside a greenhouse crazy Well, did you build it for it? Yes, but not inside the greenhouse I built it outside right next door to the greenhouse when she come outside She go crazy almost call me names crazy. She made me tear it up Then she made me build it inside the greenhouse right on the place you had marked for it Sounds weird and uh when it all this happened julio, do you remember when you built the compost box? I mean a couple of months ago about that. It was just after mr. Dillon went away I tried to tell miss banner who ever heard of a compost box in the greenhouse. She wouldn't listen She had to have it built in a certain place right in the greenhouse a little piece of ground in there The box had to go right on top of her you figure she acted pretty strange about it Do you think she had something there a little piece of ground you think she had something to hide One 15 p.m. Lucille banner returned home and ben and I went inside the house with her where we questioned her in the living room Outside in the front yard the gardener julio continued working on the lawn Lucille banner was calm and composed we questioned her about the forge signature on the sales slip She would admit nothing the whole thing's too silly to even comment on I don't know what you're talking about sergeant We think you do miss banner our handwriting man is check the two signatures one on the sales slip and one on the lease They both match they were written with the same person. There's no doubt about it And check thoroughly know what about it miss banner. There's no way out of it. You ought to know that I'll deny it That's all I keep on denying it. I wasn't in that turn. I didn't forge any signatures Why would I do a thing like that? What kind of a woman do you think I am all we know are the facts, ma'am? Now why don't you give us a straight story? It's going to save time and trouble for everybody concerned You've heard everything I've got to say this thing's ridiculous.  I'm not answering any more questions You want to get your hat and coat miss banner for you not to come downtown with it What could that going to do? I'll just keep on denying it. You can't make me say I did a thing like that You want to get your coat, please? It's right here All right.  Will you bed? Yeah, okay, julio. Yes. I'll see you a minute sure Hello miss banner julio Favorite I'd like to ask of you julio. You got a couple minutes to spare. Yeah, you want something We want to take a look in the backyard of the house down the street Mr. Dillon's house like to have you come along with us julio won't take very long Sure. Okay. I'll come along and bring a shovel along will you julio like to check something? Yeah, okay. I bring one. All right. All right miss banner What's this about? What are you trying to do something we want to check in the Dillon's backyard? It won't take long What would it have to do with me? I don't have anything to do with that house I don't even look there anymore. You realize that don't you? Yes, ma'am. We realize it I'll call my lawyer. I'll call him as soon as I get to a phone. Yes, ma'am Julio back this way sorry through the gate What are you trying to do to me?  You did live here, ma'am You lived here when mr. Dillon disappeared. Isn't that right? What are you trying to say? You've got no business on this property. You've got no business here at all. Yes, ma'am. We have What? Did you kill jester dillon? Did you kill him? Miss man All right, julio the compost box in the greenhouse. Do you want to start digging? You did compost box? Yeah, okay He was an old man So old he was sick, ma'am He didn't want to live anymore. He didn't have any reason for living Why shouldn't he give me the house? Why shouldn't I have his money? I was nice to him. I cooked for him Wanted to take care of him. He just doesn't want to live anymore. That's all All right, julio you can hold it up You want to tell us ma'am? He needed a woman anybody could tell that he needed me He's got a long sign jester and me I offered to marry him and he wouldn't do it All I could do was think about his wife. She was dead. He'd sit around and talk about her all the time You killed him. Is that what you're trying to say? I wanted to marry jester and take care of him. He wouldn't do it He had an argument in the kitchen one night.  Is that where you buried him in the greenhouse? Yes. I buried him deep the gun too. He'll be all right Poor jester. Yeah He was so old he needed a woman And he would tell you that he needed me Well, I guess you made a mistake No, sergeant. He did. Yeah, he didn't want me The story you have just heard was true The names were changed to protect the innocent On june 2nd trial was held in superior court department 86 city and county of los angeles state of california In a moment the results of that trial and now here is our star jack web Thank you friends during the past couple of years We've had many talks with law enforcement agencies and received hundreds of letters from police officers all over the country We're especially pleased to know that so many of these men feel as we do That fatima is the best of all king-sized cigarettes As a matter of fact our sales reports prove beyond a doubt that more and more smokers everywhere are switching to fatima When you buy your first pack, you'll understand why you'll enjoy fatima's extra mildness They're much better flavor and aroma next time look for the golden yellow package and ask for fatima Best of all king-sized cigarettes The seal marie banner was tried and convicted of murder in the first degree She received the sentence as prescribed by law She is now serving a life term in the state penitentiary for women to hatch up in california You have just heard dragnet a series of authentic cases from official files Technical advice comes from the office of chief of police w.h. Parker los angeles police department Fatima cigarettes best of all king-sized cigarettes has brought you dragnet transcribed from los angeles They tuned for counter spy next on mbc