Okay, so to share a concert or maybe mark you can share the notes. Well, you say you can't share you should be able to. Huh. Okay, I can certainly share them know if that'll help. Wait, weird. Here comes the shared screen. Oh, I can't share. Okay, we'll let you drive that. Do you see my screen? No. Yes. We can see the GitHub. GitHub.com in dark mode. So you only see GitHub.com. Now we see the notes. Change seconds ago. So first few announcements. Is it recording? Yes. Okay, so I think we have to cut that first part of the video. So welcome everybody to this new Jenkins infrastructure meeting. We have a few announcements on the sponsoring detail. The first one is Amazon is going to renew the sponsoring. So last year they gave us $60,000 to cover the CIA infrastructure. And we got to recently got confirmation that they will renew that sponsoring which is really great. We just have some technical. We have some documentation that we have to solve because what happened last year is sort of current situation for the Amazon account that we are using. It's officially owned by cloud bees. And we have to transfer that account to the CDF. That's that was a longstanding projects. And what happened last year is when when the sponsoring sponsoring arrived, it was it appears in cloud bees. It was a longstanding information. And this is something that we want to avoid this time. So we are currently investigating if it's faster to transfer the account to the CDF. If it's faster to transfer the account to an independent organization, or any other solution. But yeah, at least, at least the good thing is the cost will be covered from a second sponsoring standpoint. Anyway, we'll offer some money. If my if, if I remember correctly, it will be 600 Europe months. So this is also some, some compute that will be able to use for the CI environment. So in specific areas we may have some some some work to do because the that that region would be a little bit further than east to west coast. So we may probably use that money for a specific CI environment. We still have to to identify which one. So if you want to help with scale wave, feel free to reach out. And we can see how to use that money. The call is obviously to reduce, it's always to reduce the cost of dashed accounts, and to reduce the dependency on one specific cloud vendor. That's something that we try to do. So for a long term that's really nice. Any inputs, Damien, you want to bring here. No, I just want to check if it's monthly. I understand the same as you, but I just want to be sure it's not the one shot 600 euros because then that would be really cheap. Yeah, definitely. But anyway, I'm looking forward to work on that that specific area. I'm before the next points. So if I go back to the agenda, we the first thing that I want to mention as well was the puppet agent issues we had so we recently discovered a week ago that the certificates and the puppet infrastructure part two months ago. And so the puppet agent stopped working several months two months ago at the same time. So that certificate was configured to work for five years. And we had not no monitoring in place. So what we had to do, which is a little bit cumbersome was to first renew the certificate on the puppet master. And now we have to go on every agent to renew the certificate so the agent can connect with the master. We did it for few machine trusted CI archives that CI, and we now have to continue bringing back everything on track. In the process we identified that some changes were not correctly apply this mainly this mainly affected Damien SSH keys that were not deployed on some machines. So he needed me to do to run the agent. So that's still a work in progress any question on this. No sounds perfect so that then let's continue. The next topic so we covered I was sponsoring we covered the scale was sponsoring. So we have now the next topic to the agenda is agent on our CI environments. So Damien I think you want to bring this as you as you're the one who been working on that. So the initial goal, and it's still the scope of the initial chance it's to update regularly the operating system packages and tools inside the agents. Right now see agent inside you and all other instances that we use are using images from December, which mean we need to upgrade the contents the operating system mainly. The main challenge we have, and we discovered is that by updating we have the latest tools, specifics per cloud on AWS, it's named SSM or easy to launcher they provide services that you instance used to connect to the web services gets the instance data gets the private key prints to the console etc. And at least for the easy to plug in it create a big issue. It's that you have to wait for the instance, not only to be started started and ready to be connected to better to start all the easy to services sometimes it reboots. It, it's resize the file system it does a bunch of stuff before being able to print the fingerprint of the machine on the console, which mean a machine that start that is ready to use in one, eventually two minutes might need eight to 10 minutes before being able to launch an agent. The main reason is because we use, we try to use as much as possible a strong security that say, even the initial SSH connection is checked against the fingerprint that come from the cloud console, just to be sure there is no man in the middle attack during the initial connection. After the initial connection there is no risk because we always checked afterwards but that's the first one. The question is, oh, is it a real threat, the man in the middle for an initial SSH connection in our context, because we build the API, these are not outside API. And most of the time it's inside a private network however that's still a risk. I'm not good enough to evaluate the potential of this one, but we have that challenge of do we want fast instances, or do we want really safe instances during the connection. Right now the idea is to try to keep the slowest instances, that's the proposal, I prefer staying safe, but that create challenges depending on the combination of operating system and cloud provider. So I'm not sure that's enough details for this, but if you're interested or have an advice on that, don't hesitate to ping me on the IRC. The second point is for the Linux instances, IRM and AMD, the goal is to use Docker as an unprivileged process, which means the route inside the container won't be the root of the virtual machine. The goal is to strengthen the bits on that part, which means we can totally target on Linux to use an unprivileged user for the Jenkins agent. Which means Jenkins agent is able to run container, but the Jenkins agent even with container is not able to own or to be a root. That's the goal. Windows for Windows though we don't have the unprivileged Docker container engine, it's not possible. So that's why the initial reason is to keep the administrator user. The second reason is also because I haven't found a way to create a user on Windows, that's as simple as that. You can create a user, but you don't have a home, you don't have a set of predefined settings, predefined keys. So on the end, the user must be unprivileged. So that means no need to create an unprivileged user and add too much code to maintain or prefer removing the code and get started on that. So with these experiences that has been documented on the repository, the goal is to have the same set of images that should be updated at least monthly and deployed automatically on all the instances. So we will have the same behavior between for releases, for external contributor on CI and for us in the info. So that should be end of the month for that set of tasks. Thanks, I mean, I would just just add something quite important while you're looking at the windows. Agents, we still have an issue and the release environment where we had to use a specific version of the SSH plugin. So yeah, if you have enough time and feel confident, I mean that's if it's remain in your. The thing that you're working at the moment, maybe you could also look at it, maybe that's something easy to fix. Good pointer. And you have a question. So, yeah, Mark. Sorry, Damien, you said that the goal is to have a similar configuration between agents in those various environments that I capture that correctly in the notes. CI and trusted and release and info now cert is certainly one that Daniel cares about intensely and release is one that the release team cares about intensely. I don't see a problem with what you're proposing but I assume we've got conversations with others. So that they know hey where can we would like to unify our handling of agents across all the all the CI servers. So that's something to specify here that a release environment rely totally on communities. So we use Windows pods for the Windows parts. So Windows containers and we use Linux containers running on communities. That's one thing. The other thing is the work that Damien is doing on CI touching kids that are you that's where we spend most of the money. So having fast windows agents and stable windows agent is pretty important for CI for the CI touching kids that are you because that's our biggest instance. Obviously, once we have a good process we can definitely apply the same configuration to serve that CI to trust that CI as well that's what we did in the past, the previous situation that what we had before Damien started working. Even I would say one or two years ago, we were just configuring everything from Jenkins so when Jenkins would start an agent it would install Docker will install the user, and we would just run a script for Windows agents. And then we started creating custom Windows machines using Packer. This is something that Alex started working on a year ago, maybe two years ago. And we realized that for instance on trusted CI we were still using the previous configuration and that's the challenge of having configuration that we modify manually is that sometime we have a fix happening on one instance and it's not replicated on the other instances. And so the work that Damien is doing is to have small agent a small I mean templates that we can reuse across different CI instances. And this bring to the next topic which is having configuration as code for CI touching kids that I owe and the idea would be to start using to cast to configure the cloud agents. But not changing everything in one time but just working on one area at a time. And I think it would be really good to have that because the cloud configuration is quite big and when we have to go to the web interface it's quite difficult to know when we change something and we just having a configuration that we can commit and that people can review would be definitely easier. Obviously once we have, I mean that's the same that happened on release that CI and infrared CI once you have a configuration as code file, you can just copy paste the same configuration for a different instance and that's really easy to use. And the main difference is CI the Jenkins that you enter so that CI are using puppets to be deployed. And we're not planning to change that in.  So we will still use puppets, even for me probably for coming here at least. Any question on that topic. I proposed to move to the last one. So I had discussion about using discourse in the Jenkins project so for those who are not familiar with this course. It's a tool that you it's similar to a forum that's a tool where you can have people discussing we can group the peak regroup topics. It's a very nice way to organize the various areas in the Jenkins project. Oh leg initially came to me asking if we could use this course for the user for the Jenkins user. So we could use it on top of the user mailing list. I think it would also be great to use it for dev and for the infrastructure because this idea of having yet to split the information into topic would be really helpful. I've been looking in the past to discourse to deploy it manually. That was not a great experience. I mean, I don't want to go down that path. So I would like to look at either if we can have some sponsoring from discourse or maybe pay for the service. Right now, when we start the trial we have 14 days to test it. So if there are people interested to look at them and look at that with me once we have enough people to test this course, I would like to just run a small experiments. If you need any help, don't hesitate to ask me because I've did exactly the same for the traffic community. I was in charge of testing, evaluating, deploying and maintaining it during the first year of existence. So what was your experience there? I think that's a subject outside this but it was overall pretty good. I liked it and you have a way to personalize, customize and that the conclusion was the same. Maintaining it ourselves is complicated. So if you have to do it, just be prepared to have way more things. And it was working really smoothly on their web service and never had any incident on one and a half. That's quite nice and you can tune a lot of things. There are a lot of plugins, integrations, customization on the look and feel, so that's a nice service, really overall positive experience. I think that would be also nice to look at the sponsoring options because I know that the CO is sponsoring the Jenkins project. And the LFX community bonding project. Yeah, so we had sponsorship from this course. Whatever the name of the company, it's a bit complicated. But yeah, it may be good, quite significant sponsorship. I believe that we could get sponsorship for managed service. So I've been working with a few other communities recently, and for example, one of the communities open source design. They use sponsored version of this course from the vendor company, so they don't manage this course on their own, they just get it as a managed service. They don't have such kinds of sponsorships. Yeah, they imply potential risks. Sponsorship continues, etc, like we experienced these other services, but at the same time you wouldn't need to manage it on our own. So for experiment, it seems to be like a good approach. And then we can discuss whether you would like to host this course on our own or presently managed service. So as a board member, I offer my help if you need some whatever collaboration with the vendor company. But yeah, technically it's totally possible and I believe that if we ask, there's good probability that you would be able to get sponsorship. Otherwise, the cost is 1200 per year. So it's definitely not one. Yeah, definitely. So yeah, we can potentially even pay for this discourse from even our current infrastructure budget. I wouldn't say that it's the desired approach. So this court vendor donated $2,500 to us. So potentially covers the cost for two years of managed service. Just by that, and we haven't allocated this donation anywhere. We are pretty good candidates to them. This should be a pretty good candidate to the open source program for the record with traffic. They evaluated that traffic even though the source code is open source traffic is only maintained by one company, which is continuous. So then we were not candidate. They refused and we had to pay for that. But two years ago at least they said Jenkins was an example of an open source project. So they said that's very well known. There are company different people from different interests. They considered us at least three years ago now as a candidate. So that should be a good, still positive thing. I don't know with the experience, but don't get me wrong. Maybe they will say the same and they will ask us to pay because the business behind or something. They can always find this. Let's ask. Thanks for the inputs. So we cover all the points that we had that we have for the agenda today. So if you have any last topic you want to bring in discuss here. Otherwise, we can close the meeting. Well, so more FYI than anything but the weekly release has been temporarily delayed and intentionally delayed by a day so that we can get a little bit more time to evaluate a possible change. If it was in the release channel, it's nothing it in for needs to do about it just be aware, don't enable the weekly build process at the moment, let Tim Jacob continue managing that. I've been especially, especially for that I've been considering disabling the management of the release instance. We're experimenting the file. Because the risk that we have here is if for some reason we restart Jenkins instance, we, we, we remove the luck and the job. Well, the product is ready over so. In this case, in this case that's fine because that's a crunch up and so we are over the date anyway, but I've been thinking doing the same for trusted CI so that would be pretty simple if my mouse want to go back. So it would just be trusted CI. No, no, sorry, I didn't want to say trusted. Okay. I'm not sure if an authenticated. Just in case you're still sharing. Yeah, I know that I know that's what I want to do. So if we go to cluster. Here, if we just comments, let's say in the release environment where is that Jenkins release. If we just comment this line. The job will not be managed by infrared CI. So the, the, the, the, that application won't be managed so we can temporarily disable any modification done to that that service. And I think this is something that we should do in the future. Yes, Marcus seems a bit. I don't object it just didn't this particular condition I think is handled well enough by the job being disabled and as Daniel noted the cron job. But if you think that would be a good safeguard that's great as well I just would hate to have lost the management of that because we forgot to enable it again after this period is done. We have two jobs that need to be disabled here, we have the release job on release the CI, but we also have the infra management job that manage the communities cluster. So if for some reason we update Jenkins if for some reason. Yeah, if there is an update on Jenkins, and we accidentally merged that change. The communities will be updated and obviously we restart the Jenkins instance so we restart really the CI so that's why I was suggesting to just comment this nine so we are sure that we don't we don't update the service accidentally. So in this case for this weekly that's fine I'm just thinking for future security release or stable release. I just wanted to mention this is mostly relevant for security updates, because we skip the weekly in the week of the security update. And that has happened I think once or twice now that I disabled a job. Free for five days later someone merges something Jenkins restarts and the job is enabled again. Exactly that that's why that that's why I was thinking to this. And yeah, if we just put a comment in that email file. I think that should be part of the process. Okay. Any other topic. Then I propose to finish the meeting here. Thank you for your time. We already put hang on Olivier. Quick update. Okay, so we did some progress on AWS sponsorship. So we still to be communicating to public. But we we shared we showed that to pick at the beginning of the meeting. Okay, I was late. Okay, but no other. I just shared that we have agreement from Amazon to renew the sponsor the sponsoring, we are just trying to figure out the best way to the best location for the Amazon accounts. Yes, we have written so currently the account is owned by called these we had some issues related to that in the previous years. So the idea that we would start a new account and we move for Jenkins resources there and then we would connect sponsorships so that sponsorship is dedicated on the to the Jenkins account. And after that, the company will be looking for putting transfer ownership of this account to the continued labor foundation so that it's officially under the roof of CF like Microsoft accounts. So that's the plan. No timeline for that. So that's the initiative the first steps on both the sponsorship. One of the major benefits to transfer that accounts to the CDF would be to invite non clubbies employees there, because right now only clubbies employees can have access to the Amazon account, which is a blocker. So that key contributors who had access to Azure to the account really help to unblock situation. And right now, we have strong dependencies on on. I mean, the number of people who have access to that account increased, because we have Mark we have a leg we have Damien we have me, but I mean a year ago I was the only one to have access to the accounts. So, there was, there was not a big factor because sorry. Yeah, strategically it should be transferred the continuous labor foundation. We had a discussion about that more than a year ago that time, but nobody had time to do that we had much more serious issues with Asia accounts. Now Asia problem is more settled via thanks to Olivia for pushing that because finally as a board member received the invoice first time. So at least the process against the streamlined. So, you know, we can focus on the AWS. And why we talk about Azure accounts. We still have to reduce the cost of that accounts. So with the recent change that we did to the mirroring infrastructure we already reduce. But it's too early to want to know how much we reduce the cost, but we should definitely reduce I hope to reduce by 1000 dollar based on the change we did two weeks ago. So even just one thousand dollar reduction you'll be above the target, right. Yeah, exactly. So the challenge is every services keep growing. And so while we had that issue with the mirroring infrastructure, we still have to optimize, especially in the CI agents. So I hope that the work that Damian is doing to increase at the time to start an agent will also affect the building. But we have to work on that. But we are running over time. So thanks everybody. Thanks. Thank you for your time and see you on RC. Before you leave, I already put the notes to the next meeting agenda. So if you already have ideas that you know you want to discuss next week, feel free to add them. Thanks. Bye bye.


Hi, this is Jessica Hagman here at Alden Library, and today I have with me Hannah Schmillen and Paul Campbell, who are librarians here at Alden, and they are going to tell us about presentations they are doing at the Spotlight on Learning Conference next week that is in Baker Center on Tuesday. So, Hannah, let's start with you. Could you tell us first what you do here at Alden? Sure. So, I'm the Health Sciences and Professions Librarian. So, I am the liaison from the library to that entire college, and I answer questions, and I teach one-shot classes, kind of like a guest speaker. I buy things. So, basically a little bit of everything. And you work here on the second floor? Yeah, I live here on the second floor of Alden, but I also have office hours in Grover to be a little bit more accessible to the people that I work with. Paul, what about you? What do you do here? I am, my official title is the Social Science Librarian, but I specifically liaise with the Political Science, Psychology, and the Masters of Public Administration Departments or Programs. And you work here on the second floor as well, right? Yes. Hannah and I share a wall. We work walls together. Yes. Yes. So, Hannah, could you tell us what you're presenting about at the conference? Sure. So, I'm going to be talking about active learning strategies and information literacy. So, specifically, I use a strategy called Search Smackdown. All right. So, we had a little bit of a hiccup. Could you tell us again what you're doing, you're talking about at the conference? Yeah. So, I'll be talking about information literacy and active learning strategies in the classroom. Specifically, I'm going to be focusing around one of the strategies I use, which is called the Search Smackdown. And it is. So, it's like this competition, but it also allows students to work together in groups. We have discussion time and reflection. But also, it's like this quick, fast pace I had to hurry up and answer questions in a variety of sources. So, it kind of hits on several active learning components, which I'll talk about and discuss the importance of that. But also, I'm going to be making my people, so no pressure, who are coming to my session actually participate in that activity so they can see what it's like and we'll talk about the benefits or disadvantages of it. So, what kind of classes have you used this strategy with? Mostly higher level courses. So, the physician assistant orientation, I worked with them first and it was a two hour time slot that I had. So, I had a lot of time. But I've also worked with, I did it in a senior level nursing course, as well as I think an athletic training course as well. So, higher level, mostly those students are doing research projects for the most part, but at least to kind of get them an idea of like, you can't just search one place and get all of the answers. Like, that doesn't exist. So, talking about how different resources have different authority and different kind of subjects is really advantageous to these future research professionals. It sounds like a good, like I've been in classes too, where there's just lots of different resources that students need to use. If you just go through all of them, it's really hard to talk about all of those things in a short amount of time and not bore people to do it. Right. So, it's a good way to kind of combat that scenario. Yeah. So, this is a lot less of list listing and lecturing and more hands-on like, you dabble in this and then we'll share and see was it successful or was it not. So, it's a good way for them to be aware of all these resources without being like, you know, and for PubMed, this is what you search and there's X amount of citate. They don't care about that. It's like, what can I use it for? Can I actually search it? Is it easy to use and what do I find? So, I've gotten feedback from students about this activity. They love it, especially because I usually have chocolate prizes. So, they're, you know, kind of, no, yes, I will have prizes on Tuesday. But it kind of gets their adrenaline going a little bit. But then they, you can see just the light bulbs go, oh my gosh, you can't just find everything in one spot. Because that's what you want. I like, that's my intention with this. So, the responses from students have been overwhelmingly positive. And I've been trying to find ways to tweak it, to reuse it, and then share it so other people could use it if they have an appropriate context. I think I might have to steal that technique for me the next time I teach a class where we have lots of tools. Is there anything else you want to tell us about that? No, I think that about covers that come to the session and you can learn more. What time is your? It's from one to two, I believe. Oh, now I'm not sure. It's either one to two or two to three. It's one to two. We'll schedule in the comment box so that you can see the full schedule if you would like to see Hannah's presentation. All right, Paul, what about you? I'm going to be talking about also at the one to two o'clock hour. So, Hannah and I are going to be competing against each other. That's sad. But I will not be giving out chocolate, so I just want to throw that out there. I'm going to be talking about a collaboration I did at a previous position at Ohio University Lancaster, where I was the Instruction Librarian there. I worked with a history professor, Prima Nguong, teaching her History 3111J, which is like the senior writing or senior capstone type course. And the culminating project for that is a original research on some historical topic. And she and I originally collaborated over the summer previous to the course being taking place. Excuse me. To try to develop a curriculum or how can the library benefit her course? Because she was getting tired of having just the one shot, 50 minutes. This is the library resources. Good luck, right? And then the students completely forget about it. And as a librarian, I also get frustrated with those because I feel like it really doesn't do anybody any good. The faculty member, the students or the librarian. And so by developing, we initially had three different library sessions and each one of them we talked about a different aspect of the research process. And we also talked about incorporating the framework of information literacy, so if you're dying to know what that is, please come on Tuesday. But we realized that the students still had questions about the research process after those three initial sessions. And so what we did is she actually came to me and she was like, can you come back three more times? And I was like, absolutely. Oh my gosh, that's amazing. So it was a librarian's fantasy that we had a total of six sessions. So the first three were more lecture and active learning about the research process, but then the final three or the last three were more like review and more of a workshop. So she would start at one into the room to give because she's the subject matter expert in history. So she would give that perspective of advice to the students and I would start the other room to give because I'm the subject matter expert for research, right? So I would start at the other end and we would just kind of give the unsolicited advice to the students in order to better research on their topic. And so we got to talk about neat things about how to use Wikipedia in a research process. And so students were like, oh my god, you can't use Wikipedia. Well, to blow their minds blow their minds. I mean, yes and no. So I hope to talk about that on Tuesday and how Wikipedia or Google in general can be a very useful topic when you use it effectively. So it was a wonderful collaboration and then actually it has really informed my practice as a librarian in my current position here at Alden Library. And so I really stress to the faculty that I work with about having more than just one session regarding their research topic or their research in their studies. It must be useful to have that experience to hand and be like, hey, this time this happened and look how well it turned out for the students. Yes. And that's why I'm really excited about this particular presentation on Tuesday is that I hope that if faculty have questions about, hmm, I wonder how the library can really help their students reach at a higher level of their bibliography or whatever, this hopefully will inform them. When you were working in that class, was it all students working on one type of topic or were they all doing different topics? Oh, it was all throughout history. The majority of them were American history of some sort. But there was, I mean, Queen Elizabeth I, one student did a history of graduate university. That's the deaf university in Washington, DC. So it was a wide gamut of information. So being able to give students effective research tools in 50 minutes on all of history is unrealistic. I mean, you can't teach history in 50 minutes. So how can you teach research in 50 minutes? So that was kind of the process that Dr. Wang and I had or the philosophy that we had. And I think that working with faculty and developing a library integration has been kind of like the highlight of my career. I know that sounds really cheesy, but it's so much fun when not only am I achieving the goals that I think the students should have, but then also working with the faculty to realize that my goals are their goals. It's just a different. Should we get those online? Yeah. Yeah. They're just different language, but it's the same thing. So it's a lot of fun. I really like it that when faculty and I are able to present or write articles about these collaborations for the study of teaching and learning journals, for example. So that's what I'm really looking forward to. Awesome. What made, I guess for both of you, what made you decide that you wanted to present at this conference? To spread the good word. Yeah. To be evangelical of the library. That we're doing really amazing things. And the things that we do impact students and the instructors directly. So like when I did my search smackdown, pretty much every instructor was like, I had no idea that existed. Or I didn't know you could search in that way. But also they could see the impact of their students. Like the conversations and the discussion that they were having was so much more in depth than I could have done with just like, and here's the library. Because it doesn't really mean anything. So this really made it relevant to them into the class and what they were doing like you were talking about. So the reason why I wanted to present is because it shows the opportunities that we have to collaborate with faculty and to make a huge impact on student learning, which like you said, it's not necessarily the same language. And we do talk a lot about information literacy frameworks and that, which are really important. And how we can make them specific to for that specific subject. Because I mean, health sciences, information literacy, I can help make that happen. So yeah, mostly it was to spread the good word and also show people strategies that they could use in their classroom. Like you don't have to have a librarian to make information literacy happen, or to make active learning happen. I mean, it's great if that collaboration is possible. But at least in this way, we're kind of planting the seeds a little bit to other possibilities that are out there. Because it's silly to limit yourself. I really wanted to piggyback on what Hannah was saying about being evangelical about showing how wonderful the library is in the librarians, because I'm totally biased on that. Yeah, naturally. We all agree. But my experience with one shot instruction, just that 150 minute, here's the library, black here it is, go away. I as a librarian don't get that relationship with the students or the faculty member. But when I have multiple sessions with students, they'll stop me in the hallway, or stop me on the street saying, hey, Paul, I finally found this article, or I finally found this source that was just perfect. And so it makes me get up the next day. But also the students, I every session, whether it's one shot or six sessions, I always tell them, please contact me. I mean, that's what I'm paid the big bucks to do is to help you with your I can't do it for you, but I can I can certainly help you along the way. And they never do. But when I have multiple relations, relationships, excuse me, multiple sessions with those students that relationship develops. And so they are much more comfortable coming to me, either emailing me or showing up for a consultation in my office. And we can talk about different strategies or thinking about their topic on a broader or even a more specific terms. There was one other thing that I really wanted to make a point of, but I can't remember what it was. I did wonder whether you were working with history students, if you're mostly looking at articles or primary sources or what kind of information they were actually looking for. Thank you, that reminded me. We looked at both in this particular example. First off, we looked at tertiary sources, but then we also looked at secondary sources books and articles about whatever their history topic was. But then we looked at primary sources. And I have learned that students, when you ask them, do you know what a primary source is, they will say, Oh, yeah, of course, of course, I know what is, then you challenge them and they're like, well, kind of hard to determine what that's primary. And it may change. Right. And depending on the question, it might be different thing. And so one of the learning activities, active learning activities that I did with the students was one day we I told them that I was personally unfastened with the late 60s of American history. I think it's a pivotal moment in American history. But so I had a PowerPoint of images or items that were primary sources. And I asked students how I could use them as a primary source. So I used Johnson's Daisy ad. I used a painting that Andy Warhol had at the time. I used an electrolyte vacuum ad. And I asked the students how first I asked the students, is this item a secondary or primary source or tertiary? And then how could I use this item as a primary source? Like what question would have to be used? And of course, my last one was Wikipedia. And how could I use this as a primary source? And they their minds blew. But there are very narrow questions that you can use about how Wikipedia might portray women in history, or for example. So that could be used as a primary source in that specific case. Not always. So it was a very fun activity. The whole class was really engaged in trying to understand. And one thing that was really nice is that Dr. Wong had a journal, research journal that the students had to fill out throughout the course in Blackboard. Could you see those as they were doing them? No, I could not see them. But she did share with me. Obviously, because of student privacy, she couldn't tell me who. But one student really mentioned about that particular learning activity really helped the student understand truly what a primary source is and how it's a lot of gray. And it really helped the student understand the topic that they were researching. So it seems like here you both talk about your presentations and how you're doing teaching. It sounds like, and correct me if I'm interpreting incorrectly, but it sounds like you're trying to take and recognize how complex the research process is. Like there's nothing you could ever teach in a day or even a semester. But so you've got different ways of trying to take that complex experience and make it, use these activities to do as much as you can. That limited amount of time would just say that's a good kind of time. That's how I see the time between you both is you're both taking this like how many primary sources that got lots of different topics. And you're kind of lengthening the instruction and whereas you're using kind of gamification techniques to only have one session to kind of still show all the different strategies. It's just kind of a different approach. Yeah, I would agree with that. I mean, it's not only for my benefit, but at least with my students. If they are in the emergency room or if they have a patient coming in, a lot of times they have one minute to find an evidence-based answer, right? Which is why I try to use that time limit because I have them search. Okay, so they're each searching for different resources in groups and then I'm prompting them like find a systematic review, find a case study, find an answer to this thing. So the time limit, I mean, I have a time limit myself to show them a lot of things, but also they have time limits. They have restrictions themselves. So showing them how to be efficient and effective researchers help them in their practice, but also having that like concept of sometimes it has to be quick, but there's ways to do it well. Because I have limited time too, it really works well together. So yeah, we're trying to show them a lot of things to help them be successful in a short amount of time, which is not ideal. I would love multiple sessions so we can dive deeper into that. So yeah, it's a way to kind of get at multiple aspects at once to make sure that the most learning happens. It seems like you're both really adapting it well for the discipline. Really different disciplines. Like you recognize the time thing is something, in addition to learning how to research, they also need to learn how to find information and reliable information quickly. Whereas with history, it's so complex and I want to better recognize how complex all that information is. I think that one unifying element between Hannah and May's my presentations or teaching strategies specifically with our two presentations is that our intention is that when students leave the university, they will no longer have access to Ohio University resources. So we want them to be informed citizens and knowing how to evaluate and use and engage with the information that they're bombarded with on a daily basis, either through social media or at work. They have that one minute to make a decision on finances or care of the patient, for example. So that's our end goal in our two different strategies and they're kind of the same strategy I see. Yeah, I agree. Awesome. Thank you so much for telling me about what you're presenting. Thanks for having us. So on Tuesday, unfortunately without a time journey, you're not going to be able to see both of their presentations, but you can see one or the other from one to two on Tuesday at Baker Center at the Spotlight on Learning Conference here at Ohio University. But I'm sure Hannah or Paul would be happy to talk to you about what they're doing in the classroom or they could put you in touch with your own subject librarian who could probably do similar type of work with you. So if you have any questions, feel free to put those in the comment box to contact us in the library, the library, or whatever work means works best for you. Thanks for watching. Thanks. Thank you.