So dear learners what we are going to talk about today is something called convergence. Convergence is if you look at that slide here what an idea surgery that what an idea surgery is an idea idea mobile ad which actually encompasses this feeling or this concept of convergence very well let's go and have a look at it first. Convergence is a combination of I mean it's a it's a Latin word for two entities coming together when two or more entities come together it is called converger which is where convergence has come in from. Nicholas Negroponte was one of the first persons who actually defined and represented convergence in a in a diagrammatic format. For example he talked of broadcast and motion picture industry print and publishing industry and computer industry. When these three circles converge when they when they intersect he termed it as convergence. Let's go ahead. These are the first the the common ground and starting point for defining the convergence and the definition of convergence is essentially a description of digitalization. What we are doing today in today's world in the media field is basically digitalization. There are several studies that have taken place on convergence and several researches that have been done. For example Swedish agency for innovation systems called Vinova presented a similar model in 2001 pointing out four areas of convergence services electronic appliances networks and market convergence. Convergence of services occurs when information traditionally connected with a certain media channel is provided to alternative media channels. For example the one television channel broadcasts other television channels programs. If you look at the Sony sometimes or even Z sometimes broadcasts Sony's programs or if there is a very very popular program that is coming on another channel it is broadcast by by another channel that is called convergence and basically convergence of services. Electronic convergence is of course what we see today in the electronic world in the media world that electronic gadgets keep on coming together and together. For example if you look at the mobile phone that is probably the most convergent gadget today we use. Initially when we started using a mobile phone it was just for making calls and sending SMSs but today we are using it for sending messages we are using it for typing world files we are using it for creating pop-up presentations we are using 3G to watch video using it for even for shooting and uploading an MMS these are the kind of convergent technologies that we are using today. The third area of convergence is the network convergence network convergence involves the integration of separate infrastructures and a distribution of services from other areas than the services traditionally distributed over a certain network for example internet now internet encompasses a network what is internet basically if you look at it in a very very down-to-earth manner internet is an international network of computers clearly but then what does it do it it encompasses lands vans and then wide area networks and a city a country and ultimately becomes an internet and this is what happens when you're talking of a network convergence market convergence this is also a very important convergence even though we are not dealing with market convergence directly as a media person but as a media person as a media student you have to understand that even in the media market there's a lot of convergence happening so when it occurs when actors in the market move to adjacent areas which has not been previously been in the primary areas of for example reliance now look at reliance reliance is primarily a telecommunication company when it came into i mean i'm not talking of reliance industries in terms of petroleum i'm talking of reliance industries in terms of communication came in as a telecommunication company but what is reliance doing now reliance is having big flicks that is the video rental channel they're having a big cinema which produces and big theaters where they have distributed films so they are into everything every form of communication and distribution of films that is what is market convergence so what would ideally be a newsroom convergence i get a story from one of the reporters and i use the same story where i get a downlink from the satellite i get a video feed from the satellite capture it use that that feed to create a story for the television i also quickly write a story or type a story for tomorrow's edition of newspaper i write a script for the radio and at the same time i am capable of creating a web page and i use that that capability to create a website i mean or add pages to my website all this ideally should be the the method by which newsroom convergence should happen but we really don't have that right now in our country maybe in the future very near future i think it'll happen so some other studies of convergence for example gordon has identified five types of convergence ownership tactical structural information gathering and storytelling in some of these theories when we when we're going to look at this convergence it'll overlap but we have to talk of the studies that have been done ownership convergence of course would be you know compared to merging of two companies tactical convergence is a form of cross promotion so when i promote your your program and you promote my program that becomes a tactical convergence structural convergence is also very important what is happening is today i cannot uh claim to be a reporter only a reporter who will carry uh who will wear a jaba and a jola and go out in the field and write a story by hand and give it to my audience that is not enough as a reporter i should be able to do several other things at the same time as an editor i should be able to edit the story put it put together a page maybe and uh due to this kind of skill sets multiple skill sets that are necessary what is happening is within the news industry there is a lot of restructuring happening or in terms of job structures so if i join a newspaper organization as a reporter i may not be just a reporter but i might also have to go to the office put together the page that i'm supposed to put uh suppose i'm covering sports speed then it's not enough to just cover the sports and give it away to an editor i might have to go there and put together the page in either quark express or page maker or in design and keep it ready for tomorrow's edition that kind of structural convergence is happening in today's organizations information gathering i i don't know how it happens everywhere in the in the country but in a city like Mumbai this is a very prevalent form of convergence what happens is in a city like Mumbai you can't be in all the places and i cannot ask if i am the organization i cannot keep reporters all over the city because just to travel for one end one end of the city to the other end of the city either east west or north south it takes more than one two hours so i the news is happening in the south and i'm in the north i cannot cover it what happens is especially during the night time what happens is these uh reporters they uh after the shift is over by about three o'clock or four o'clock they correct in a central place or uh what they do is they do camera to camera transfer so uh if you have got a story and i don't have a story you will give the camera or you just plug in your wires and transfer the story to me which is why if you see in in today's news news broadcasts sometimes if you switch channels with the remote you'll see exactly the same picture in several news channels there's no exclusivity in pictures everybody breaks the same news and with the same pictures maybe the narration is different but why the same pictures because you've got information gathering convergence that is what happens storytelling convergence about new ways of to present information in different publishing channels now this is very common i think media students will know how to convert a story for a different if i i am from a political party or if i am if my newspaper is affiliated to a political party i'll have to frame my story according to that party's convenience if i'm from another opposition party or another party then i'll have to frame my story according to that particular uh you know affiliation so storytelling convergence always there some um this is a very good model of convergence what what this actually talks about is it's a convergence continuum there's always a continuation it's not uh you can't segregate one type of convergence from another type of convergence so you've got cross promotion and cloning and co-opetition and contention and convergence they are all together and they all all you know interact with each other to form a complete convergence you can't you can't really you know segregate each type of convergence there are some explanations about these convergence this cross promotion is defined when partners cooperate cloning is when is the state where material is republished into several channels so maybe i have syndicated a column which is repeated by another channel or a simple example like Mahabharat serial which started off with one channel and is being rebroadcast in several channels and it's still very popular co-opetition is something very important to each to all know now though it is in a very small uh point uh here in this particular presentation but it's an important phenomenon it is cooperation as well as competition at the same time so what happens is i uh at a at a higher level i cooperate with you so for example if i want to place an ad in the newspapers about something we together pool the resources and place a single ad for all of us so if you and me are our rivals in the field but at an upper level we put together some resources and place an ad in the newspaper so we so we spend less so if a newspaper ad is going to cost me say 50 000 rupees it costs you 25 it costs me 25 in the field we'll be rivals we'll be rivals we'll be competing with each other so it's actually cooperative competition and this is happening every day now in the field and we should look at it as a student of media content sharing i think we already talked about this content sharing when we are talking of information gathering the same as that and full convergence when we actually you know merge according to authors at the level cooperating partners share a central news desk so in a way somehow like uh times of india sharing a desk with the mumbai mirror with economic times and you know uh so i have a single desk where i get stories from my reporters and share the stories with all the newspapers that i have in my group loss on borders is another researcher suggests another model where convergence is a concept as well as a process both it's a concept as well as a process so how how does it work uh convergence as distribution of content to blending of traditional new media which leads to those uh those opening to new opportunities in the media for example what you're seeing is today a lot of folk media is used for communicating uh concepts if you look at some of the channels they are actually using puppets and cartoons this is the kind of convergence we are talking about traditional one-way communication model is modified to include a two-way communication so if i've got a reality show uh going on or if i've got a new story going on for example in mumbai there's a channel called ibnlokmat it's a marathi channel and they have a they have a program every night called uh atza prashna today's question so there is a question and what they do is they ask the viewers to send in their sms every day and based on that sms they keep on discussing so today if i'm discussing something and the sms say that the answer is either yes or no it's not anything more but based on that the panel discussion keeps on changing that is uh the that two-way communication that is happening this is the awesome mod uh borders model convergence source is the computer and the internet and you've got medium wireless print cable and radio television satellite that is the way it is operating now this is a picture which shows actually that everything is now converging towards a mobile phone clearly which garden has also defined convergence as content creation i'm going to go quickly through this because it's kind of repeat of the previous ones so content creation you have to now be able to create content so you have to learn word and from what you should be able to take the data and the content to quark express or maybe something else audio video everything that you have to do or embed into the web page content distribution we are we know that we already have access to the internet it's a worldwide web and the distribution is happening so fast that today's news i'm recording today on the 2nd of may and news that osama bin laden has been killed has already reached us and he has that in islam there's somewhere in islam so that is what content distribution convergence is about content consumption is also very important because most consumers do not use digital display devices they still use traditional media but cable tv gives internet access but to computers we can already see some key technology developments widespread use of content management systems are there wireless internet access all these are actually having a taking place one very important but a slightly neglected the piece of technology is ntnn ip tv ip tv actually comes through your broadband model which you have router which you get from your telephone company from where you get your broadband internet connection the same model is used to give you tell television connectivity and they actually give a very very good quality television broadcast signal where i already talked about this but uh word convergence can be applied to these companies their operations the way employees do their jobs uh using this photograph we can identify at least five different types of convergence again there's a repeat ownership only three groups as i know of have some kind of convergence times sakhar and lohmad we also have convergence in tactics traditional media companies begin engaging in a variety of activities that we can call tactical convergence where daily tips and information spot news photography enterprise reporting events public service these are the kind of places where they have use convergence structure is changing as we have already seen organization structures are bound to change with the new technology coming in information gathering we already seen we when you talk of backpack journalism like i told you i mean uh what we have is a backpack or a sack where you have got a camera and a laptop and a mobile phone and a data card and a tripod that's it you are a complete studio in itself that is the kind of convergence we are talking about what is happening because of that uh is that the quality of journalistic writing is deteriorating very fast because that race for breaking news is actually killing the quality of journalistic writing presentation of course we have a storytelling convergence when you talk of convergence you also have to talk of divergence we cannot ignore divergence when you're talking about convergence because what is divergence divergence is uh today when i when i watch news on television i'm not completely satisfied because we know that television keeps on repeating the same news because they don't have enough content video television is all about video content so since i'm not satisfied i immediately go to the website and look for news on the on facebook or twitter or whatever website i am still not satisfied i still wait for tomorrow morning's newspaper so that uh i i know i wait for tomorrow's morning then i uh switch on to my mobile phone and send some messages to my friends have you heard about this go to twitter and see if twitter has got anything go to youtube and see if youtube has got some videos what we have actually in today's audience's hands is divergent medium and which is where we are talking of when you talk of convergence we also have to talk of divergence and just the way we media people have got uh technology the audience also has got technology and we should remember that and we need to be able to create content for all possible distribution devices interactive niche publishing encourages divergence without what we have been seeing that because interactivity means you've got uh uh technology at the same time the technology behind the services and production in the different channels are converging so in production technology there is convergence whereas from the consumer's point of view there is divergence which is what we are talking about one excellent example of divergence is blogging should we treat blog as uh as an authentic journalism article there are a lot of views about this but ideally a blog is written from the heart whereas a journalistic writing is written from the brain and uh frankly speaking a journalist has to authentic a story tomorrow if i ask a journalist to to prove what he has said the journalist usually ideally has to have a proof of what a documentation or something which will uh show that what he's talking is truth a blogger has no identity if i if i decide that i should use your name tomorrow i can use your name tomorrow and create a blog and nobody will know who i am unless there's a police case and there's a cyber cell investigating from the ip address but ideally uh blog writing need not be need not be journalism because there are some good journalists who are writing their blogs citizen journalism or participatory journalism again if it is authenticated is journalism otherwise it is not well so media convergence is an ongoing process and if one process ends another process immediately starts taking over that good process so what are the implications this is something which you have to think about what are the implications of convergence what are the benefits of convergence for people what are the benefits for the media these are the questions that you have to study and answer some very excellent examples of how information and communication technology has been used and how the convergent technologies have been used excellent example there's one hole in the wall experiment you might have heard of this if you search the net you'll definitely get it dr sugata mitra from iit madras had an idea there was a hole in the wall if you can see this there was a hole in the wall what he did was he kept a computer screen and a keyboard and mouse and kept the pc inside and there was a slum area outside the wall and he just kept it open free anybody could use it and surprisingly what happened is the children from the slum area learned computers on their own that is how convergent technology helps you it actually worked that way ms swaminathan research foundation they have got something called village knowledge center and village research center this is a chain based firm what they do is they they have got an excellent mobile experiment where they have distributed they have created and distributed tata indicom phones and they have actually created a software whereby one single click will give the information about the market rates the weather whether it's going to rain today or it's going to rain in that area or not that is what convergence does to us negros nagarapante who actually first defined in one of the first slides we have seen that he is the one who defined convergence in those intersecting circles he has actually worked in india he has come to uh india in in a village called khaira which is near near kharzat and see this is the kind of village 20 houses and 200 people what he did was he distributed these computers they can be charged by hand actually you know they don't have a battery and one computer one laptop per child and he taught he teaches computer to these children in a very very small remote village and they learn very fast so what what what problems do we have with convergence social responsibility theory we know there is something called social responsibility theory which is supposed to there's a media is supposed to be socially responsible what we see today in the media uh i think you should look at it and talk about it framing theory you know that uh you can frame a story as you want so i can uh with one incidence i can change the outlook of the whole story completely to suit my own purpose or my organization's purpose gatekeeping do i have any kind of gatekeeping gatekeeping now because if you're talking of gatekeeping when you've got so many people sharing the same video what is there to get key backpack journalism i've already talked about backpack journalism breaking news this phenomenon is actually breaking the back of journalism and of course attention to details the tendency today is to simply google and what your results you get you use for your news story which is a dangerous phenomenon which is uh you know has come up because of convergence so the questions that you need to answer now is is there really content convergence in the media who benefits from it the media organizations or the people if you took a look at some of the examples if chandra babu naidu's one window phenomenon because he is the one who you know digitalized digitalized all the land records in andhra pradesh and thus you could get records from one single window iris city c dot co dot in the railways site is one of the best sites india has uh best uh b2c sites india has uh a completely convergent website we other also have some other problems like convergence and isolation i have a an ipod which i carry along with me and once i put those ear plugs in my in my ear and start listening to the songs i'm cut off from the whole world i'm isolated from the world and the world is isolated from me that is one problem we have to talk about marginalization so we have got something called digital divide convergence the more convergent technology is coming up the more people who don't have access to that technology are being you know sidelined that kind of marginalization is uh happening so internet is a myth or reality i i think now it is a reality but we still have to look at the convergent part of it and the communities of course mobile phones we are using now with 3g networks coming in i think it's going to be the medium of choice for even the media companies because what you have now is face-to-face conversations you have a video downloading and possibly news broadcast instead of television channels i can watch news while traveling and on the spot news immediate news real-time news which is what convergence is going to do to mobile phones and i think that the next five years are going to be very interesting in terms of the delivery of content over media which media are we going to really use well that's what this ad i like the ad when i saw the ad because it actually talks of convergence when the hero actually uses a mobile phone to teach several children sitting beside you know that is the ideally that should be the convergent convergent medium that we have to use for education more than entertainment


This is Weaving the World Operations, Wednesday, October 13th, 2021. And then she'll come home and then she's got a panel discussion a little bit later for the same, they're doing kind of a show on the future of work. And she's involved, it's really kind of cool. So she got up really early and all the prep and all that. Cool, thank you for being here.  So I was hoping to pick your brains and see if we can make some decisions together. Among which are what are the first episodes going to be and when is the first show and what is the rhythm and what do we call this thing and things like that, which I've got ideas on, but I would just love to kick them around. And one of my logistics problems is that next week, which is when I'd like to have the first show is a weirdly like three different events are overlapping next week. And I have a whole bunch of other things I'm supposed to do. So the timing is not fabulous for starting this thing next week, but I would actually like to have a show under my belt. And it's funny and I'm thinking here when I say a show, do I mean just the episode or do I mean the episode and its shadow or a post show or all that kind of stuff. And I think our nomenclature here, just like sorting out nomenclature that feels good would be a big good step forward. So let me just stop for a second and see what thoughts you all are having. I'll definitely go first. Okay. I had two thoughts before the thoughts that you brought up was I have the feeling that this project may need a project manager slash producer. So the thing, Jerry, you said that that's not your favorite tasks. Not a forte. Yeah, and so, and then the other thing I thought of is I know that you're working with someone about doing a logo. So I'd like to hear progress on that. But I think in addition to that, you need an icon that can be like the little thing on the browser. And for if you ever do Merch or something, then it needs to be something that can be black and white and be stitched, vector graphic. So, and that should probably be derived from anything else. But I did actually have the same concept of a woven globe. The interesting thing is also kind of maybe keeping it open and slightly unfinished, but somehow not make it look like the second death star. Good point. Would be good. Yeah, exactly. For the AT&T logo, right? Yeah, yeah. It was a death star appropriately. But you're totally thinking the way I'm thinking. Right, right. So those are the topics that kind of bubbled up. Someone to kind of like corral the cats. And then to your points, yeah, I think, yeah, I don't know if next week, even recording a show, I like the concept of show. I think we just think of it like a TV show that's given out to the web because it is fairly high produced, serialized, well, not serialized, but highly produced content within a reasonable set period of time. I think if it's show terminology, I think that's all I have. Yeah, I think that's everything. Thanks. When I Google woven earth doesn't yield much, but woven globe yields a bunch of things. And I'm thinking of some sort of a whimsical globe would be pretty funny. And we need to decide, the problem with the globe is that you can't show all the content. So either tend to be one hemisphere specific. So which side is facing you? Or just people on the interesting thing about using a woven globe is that it gives the concept of longitude and latitude lines. So they kind of know it's a globe, even if you don't have continents. And then that frees up the center to be anything. Using different colors. So those are some thoughts. Yeah, there's also possibly like I could unfold the globe into a Dimaxion projection or something like that, which would then be a textile in the shape of Dimaxion map, which would be interesting, flatter. But I like the round. And Melina Bishop is the textile artist who's sort of laid aside her textile art to make a living. But we're talking and we've been having trouble actually finding a time to coordinate. But she's got actual analog materials that we can photograph or whatever that might be interested in crafting something new. Don't know. That would be fabulous. Yeah, it'd be really, it'd be really, really interesting to have sort of original art around this. And then I think I need to figure out what the sort of canonical set of images is, because Fave icon is also like a 16 by 16 square pixel art or maybe it's 64 by 64 square pixel art that is a podcast logo because they all have to be the same size and the same pixel size. And then a banner art and a couple other sorts of things all need to kind of fit in the same general theme. Yeah, I mean, you actually need everything from 16 by 16 to 64 by 64. And that's just for the Fave icon, the logo piece for the podcast, there's like two or three sizes and stuff like that. So there's a lot and you'll want something that can go all those different. Well, it doesn't all have to go all those scales. So the bigger part you'd want to use the high fidelity stuff just as long as it resembles the logo. I call it logo, but obviously people have different opinions on that. So Icon can either appear on or just resemble enough of the act of a photo that you could use the photo and the bigger stuff and the icon and the smaller stuff. But I can kind of help out with that stuff. Well, thank you. And also like as you, the images could kind of zoom in on parts. So the larger, when there's more space like a banner, it could be the full globe sort of partly done, but at smaller scales, it could be a closeup of a piece of the weaving just that shows the spherical sort of nature a little bit, but then shows like, hey, this is open territory. This is where, because what's interesting is kind of the frontiers of where the weaving is happening, right? I mean, it's all interesting, but that's metaphorically like the juicy parts like where do we connect stuff here and there. Also interesting is if different kinds of fabric are being woven together, if different textures are meeting, if it's a collage of fabrics. So rather than a woven globe of one material that happens to have continents, instead, if the continents are figurative and different kinds of textile, that gets really interesting here as well, because then we make our point better, I think. Yep. And then one thing to think about is whether you have a preference or doing both an open weave, which I was looking at, so there's an actual spacing between the weaves for more of a tight weave with wider bands. The open weave might be an interesting metaphor. I like the open weave because you can sort of see the whole sphere and you can get a much better sense of space and depth. Tight weave might be interesting if somebody wanted to do like a cross stitch of the globe or something, right? Like some crafty version of it that is playful but different. Yeah, and I think all of those could be useful. We'll still need to figure out which one's kind of the canonical one, but all those different visual representations, I think, would add to the project. Cool. Hi, Hank. Hello. Took me a long while to find the link to get in. Oh, I'm sorry. That's why I'm a bit late. Usually it's in the channel on Mattermost, in the header. That's the most solid place to find the links. It was finding the channel on Mattermost. Oh! I've switched from Google to Doc.Go and it shows up on Google, but it doesn't show up in Doc.Go. Darn it. At least not yet, but I'll fix it. So, our Mattermost channels do show up on Google search? I did find it a couple of times on Google. That's interesting. It takes a while for you to train Google. Yeah. But I'm sure it's on there. And I'm sure it's on Doc.Go. It's just, I don't think Doc.Go knows that. Exactly. Yeah, it's about training. I mean, I would recommend not searching for resources that you go to frequently. So, figure out how to use the browser. Because you overexpose them? You could use the time, huh? Because you overexpose them to the search engines or what? No, just because they're unreliable. Uh-huh. You're allowing some corporation to decide whether or not to use any source. Yeah. No, I mean, your access to your external memory. One of my go-to lines when I talk about Open Global Mind is we have outsourced our memories to Wikipedia and Google, and that's a mistake. Yeah. Yeah. Right? And Doc Searles, who was an A-list blogger back when blogging was new, his memory was he would blog everything, and then he would just search Google. And Google would point back to his blog because he was such a popular blogger. So he had a fully externalized memory, which worked only because he was an A-list blogger. It's kind of funny. So Hank, we're talking about visuals for Weaving the World and the idea that kind of the, I think the obvious and compelling image is some kind of globe woven, probably still in the process of being woven that, as Bentley nicely pointed out, pointed out doesn't look like the Death Star or the last remains of civilization on a devastated earth. Yeah. Ha-ha-ha. So we've got that little line to walk. But, and I think a little bit of whimsy would be good too, and a little bit of patchwork or multiple materials meeting would be useful, you know, maybe instead of continents so that we don't have the question about which continent are we staring at? Do we do the usual Western projection or not?  I guess you could split that, and put it at the edges. Yeah. I have some interesting visual material on that. There's the, the, when the logo for the United Nations was first designed, it was a Western centric logo. And they got some, they got some, they got some, they got some, they got some, they got some, they got some, they got some, they got some, they got some, they got some, they got some, they got some, they got some, they got some reviews. And they got so much commentary on that the year after they changed it to a non Western logo. I'll see if I can get it here into the chat, although it's not, usually I can't upload for my computer I can't upload from my computer in the chat. But I'll show you that, and I'll show you some other interesting projections. Sweet. Oh, so so the current logo is a polar projection. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's really interesting. One one year after it started they decided that was the way to go. Yeah, smart. Yeah, I searched originally UN logo and I don't have anything that looks controversial I only have the current one. I'll get you a slide of it. Oh, there's a 51946 version. Huh. Let's see what this is. No, none of these look. Well that one might it might be what happened. Let's see. Let me go back to screen share. Here. So this one on the right looks like it's got North America flat in the middle in the middle that's probably original logo. Yes, yes. Yep. Cool. Thank you for the story. That did not know that makes a lot of sense and there's a there's a Dimexian projection for you. Thank you. Well done. Yeah, yeah. And I've always I've always wondered why Dimexian isn't more popular because it seems to me like unrolling triangles makes a lot of sense for normalizing stuff but then once you get into reading about projections. It's a crazy deep difficult topic. Yeah. Buckminster Fuller's writing is really for for the dedicated. Well, I don't even I don't even mean his writings about Dimexian. I mean, you know, cartography itself of all the various projections and which one and how there's actually a measure for the goodness of a projection. There's a That's interesting. Hold on. There we go. Let me share screen again. Boop. So here's map projections. Yeah. And so there's the off the graph as a muscle equidistant Cahill butterfly map call Peters Cahill keys. General perspective projection is a is a whole category of projections so is myriahedral. And I'm looking for the measure. And Goldberg got error score is the is the measure of how good is a projection, which in part sees whether a straight line drawn on the map is more or less a straight line in the real world. I think I think that's one up that's one of the things it's looking for but I don't remember what else. I think it didn't have a Wikipedia page at the time I I did this all. That's really interesting.  Yeah. And it's amazing the number of projections people have thought of and how they how they differ in what they do. Cool. And another way of another way of representing the globe would be just abstract or conceptual it didn't wouldn't have to be you know, a photo of analog of an analog artifact it could be just a central thing so I think we can explore that as well. It could be a totally useful avenue, or inspired by or even abstracted out from original photos there's lots of ways of doing this. And then also, for to start it doesn't need to be complicated. I think, I think we may go through generations of art. And it would actually be fun to go through generations of art as we get better at the podcast and starting with something kind of crafty is no problem for me. I don't, I don't mind our first episodes having a home crafted feel. And then they don't need to progress to like looking like they were done by NBC or, you know, CNN like like leave leaving them a feeling more artistic than professional would be totally great. Any other thoughts Stacy. Yeah, I think we should move on to something else, because I think the art thing would be good with that woman that you taught you should be talking to her. This way she could show you stuff and I want to go back to Pete's project plan that the one that you worked on with Pete because I looked at that. And I was just wondering like what was filled out on there. Yes, and this is the project plan for the tile, right. No, no, no, no, no, I didn't mean I didn't mean separately. I didn't mean his, I didn't mean his piece I mean the project plan that we looked at with Hank yesterday. I noticed like there were questions that I haven't had them answered like I don't know who who who is the audience. Oh okay so you mean the Google Doc. Correct. Correct. Okay I'll go back let me go back to it just so I can refresh. I did put a bunch of questions at the bottom right. Yeah, those were Hank's questions. Yeah, Hank added those questions at the bottom and I haven't had the time to go back and look at them. Okay, I apologize and I thought those were yours and I was like well, we should finish it first. Okay, I was used. Well it's actually, these are good conversations to actually have. So the questions that Hank left in our who's the audience, what is the expected outcome or impact communication by which I think you mean what are the means what are the ways that we're communicating. Yeah, how are we going to communicate how we're going to create a buzz do we want to create a buzz. Do we want to remain below the radar. All those types of things. Yeah, yep, yep. And then Hank even offered a w and maps. So, so let's let's let's actually talk about these for for a bit right now. And for me. For me the original that the initial audience is sort of people who, who care about repairing the world's problems and who care about sharing what they know about repairing the world's problems so it's it's a kind of a practical and and I'm hoping that those people come from a wide variety of kind of disciplines or focal points or areas. Let me let me stop the bullet actually let me indent and do it this way. And when I say from different perspectives. I mean, some of these people will be policy wonks who have policy solutions some of these people will be trust builders who just want to break bread together with people who think of themselves as others. Some of them will be sociologists who have theories of change that, you know, that map to the kinds of stuff we're working on etc etc etc. Does that make sense. Yeah. Yeah, okay. So, um, they care about okay, because you left it I typed it and you said, um, people who want to share what they know, and I was just going to point out that's not the audience because the audience is in sharing the air, the audience is listening. It's true, although I'm going to immediately encourage people to share what they know in whatever means and send me the links, and I'll add them to my brain and we're working toward the big fungus where everybody's sharing anyway. Right, so. And it's not just what they know it's also in the spirit of Hanks positive cartography. What they what they wish for what they you know what are their objectives, what are they, what do they hope we achieve all these things kind of woven together. I think that's a big piece of it. I'm, I'm not interested. I'm sort of. I'm mostly and this is just sort of my general attitude about this. I'm mostly not interested in us having like millions of views and like going crazy with huge audience sizes. Like monetizing YouTube the usual way and trying to make you know some money for, for OGM and weaving the world that way. I'm really interested in building an authentic tribe and connecting community across you know bridging across communities I think one of our early calls needs to be basically a meeting of communities in some interesting way. Very interested in that and I kind of want this to feel like you're, you're a participant in the act of fixing the world in some way that that's like the feeling I want to have. Okay, so the purpose is more on connecting than on getting views. Yes, that's okay. That's important to know that that makes a big difference. Yep, yep. All that said, one of the goals of story threading, for example, is to create an original variety of media that one of them might go viral. Right. And, and, and if a mean goes viral that's great because it's doing work in the world by hopefully changing minds or, you know, it's in its contagion that affects a lot of people and so forth. So that would be a fabulous side benefit. Yep. It's got a spell of property. By the way, since you had given me permission, I use that thread to play and I answered those questions for like my dream of dreams on the discord, not discord on the matter most channel, because I was hoping that it would at least be a place to like brainstorm or think when we're not on camera. I love that. And that and what you did is perfect and I just haven't caught up with the matter most this morning yet. So I didn't see that. That's great. I didn't know that. Do you want to just riff on these things. Um, well, no, I can't, I can't talk this morning. I'm sorry. That's all right. I'll go look at what you've done on the on the matter most. Do you guys have any other thoughts about this first question who else, how else do we define our audience. I'm interested in all ages, I would love it if kids if young people came in and it's hard to get kids to do stuff you sort of have to, in some sense you have to go where they are. It also, it also complicates our world because the moment you have kids in videos that you're publishing to YouTube. And the scrutiny goes up, which is, which is terrific, but I don't know exactly what that means and, and how to do that, but that's important to note. And it would also be lovely, you know, be lovely to have people of all ages and all backgrounds jumping in. Maybe just add multi generational. Yeah. And we'll see how that works out. At some point, and I don't know exactly what this process is or when or where, but at some point I think also really, really important part of this project is talking to people who are not thinking the same way as we are, because I think we're relatively homogenous point of view in our conversations and groups, which is comforting and a nice tribe. But I think that our work is only making progress is only being effective if we start to communicate with people who don't think like us. And, yeah, and I think that's a, I've got to figure out how to craft that, whom to invite how this works, where to go all of that. Yeah, there was a very sharp email two days ago by Ken Homer on the list of about all white men in a project and where are the women and where are the non white men and where are the voices of the yet unborn and it's absolutely it's absolutely true. Yeah, I was on a big call the other day were an older white gentleman who was a very nice guy. He record his recommendation was let's just go back to the classics have everybody learn Latin and Greek and go back to the classics.  Yeah, at least it's not a viable answer for me. And I would probably agree with this gentleman that we have lost critical thinking that we you know it seems like society is going down the tubes. And then I would also point out that, and by the way there are some young people who are way smarter than me and there's a lot of a lot of people doing like phenomenal stuff that's way beyond that. And as a society we're in this moment where, and my thesis for this my story to thread through it is that we've sort of given up our souls to consumerism, and by being treated as mere consumers were stupider than we normally would be etc etc etc. So, so my, my, my belief system says that people are generally smart. You can see it when you scratch on whatever their hobby is the thing that you know if they're passionate about baseball, they can do really sophisticated statistics they have a memory like nobody's business they are analytic about the you know strategies and staffing and what not I don't whatever whatever somebody's passion is you'll be like wow, they go really deep. It's just that they're not applying it to the world's problems maybe because they feel powerless maybe because they've been treated poorly maybe because who knows what. That's my amateur thesis of the dynamics that work there. Any other thoughts about audience. If not let's move to impact. I had a thought about audience you didn't see my hand. Oh, I did not you're right. And I had put it in. So, the idea about bringing together people other people that were doing this exact same thing I had put some names in the Google Doc, because I think that if we do that first whether it's part of the show or just pre show. That's going to bring a lot of those different voices together, and I did put some names and in terms of the questions that Hank had put the one that I didn't answer was the buzz because I wasn't even sure how I felt about it and now that I hear what your goal is. One of the things that I thought would be interesting is to have people like in the different groups that were related to the conversational communities, almost throw forward a name of somebody that you may not have really heard of or realized what they're doing. I had somebody that's why I put in my list that really inspires me that is different than the group that usually meets here, and that brings a lot with her. So, I just think that's a good starting point that might accomplish a lot of the goals we talked about. And I guess two thoughts on that one is that my goal is not to do a tour of celebrities, like, like, I'm not interested in sort of big names who will attract an audience kind of thing. So we should go try to book Yuval Harari and whoever like, you know, that's not really sort of how I'm looking at this. And also, I think some calls, we might shape them and I'm really interested in playing with the format. And some calls we might shape them where there's three people talking and I'm just kind of facilitating but mostly note taking. And I'm not really the interlocutor but someone else's. Yeah. And we move through things, which would give which would give me a lot more liberty to actually do the weaving that that I normally do, which we would try to be doing a lot of you know in the post show, and all of that. I just want to mess with formats on so that we have some room for for for innovation and other sorts of conversation. Okay, but just to be clear, I was talking about people that you would not have heard of, which is what I'm specifically talking about. Yeah, yeah, which is what I what I'm saying not celebrities I mean let's find interesting people that are suggested by our crowd. When I say panel I say let's make room for multiple voices who are different to be in the same conversation, that kind of thing. So I'm, I'm in the same energetic space I think. If I can make a suggestion, please preliminary action or that is to write up a quick sentence or two and all want and having someplace for people to make those suggestions, which is a continuation of course, of course what Stacey was saying. Yes, and I think the project plan is not a bad place and where, and where some piece of this winds up getting bigger than needs to fit in the project plan it can be a separate document. Yeah, right out and link to it. Exactly because because the idea of brainstorming who should you know brainstorming the episodes and who should be on an episode is that is its own largest project. And I created I created a spreadsheet for suggestions on that, but the spreadsheet is not a good place for the conversation. And the thing is that we talk about, we talk about people on weaving the world ops matter most channel that's where we sort of share ideas for for who. And then as we come up with names and framings we put those into the spreadsheet move those up and down and turn them into actual episodes. Should I take the names I put a couple of names in the spreadsheet should I remove them and put them in. I think putting them as I think putting them in the spreadsheet is a great idea that's that's totally fine. And put them and we've put them in WGW ops, and then we'll, we'll go ahead and sort of talk and Yeah. Okay, seems fine to me. And I think there needs to be there sort of somewhere very visibly. I need to I need to synthesize. How can you help. Like what kinds of things do we need right now right now we could use some art help on logo we could use some music help on a, on an intro outro tune, or something. I don't do an awful lot of music on things that I do. I really like you know most podcasts have some some interesting music there's a whole bunch of copyright free music that exists in the world, but choosing it as hard. Like you could you could waste a whole bunch of time just going through listening to little snippets that people have uploaded. I've got a composer, one of my most eccentric friends is a composer also who's a telecom analyst who lives in Bay Ridge Brooklyn, who would easily compose a diddy as well I think but we'll see. He's been playing with garage band getting like really good he can make things that sound like 80 people are at work making music. Quite amazing what you can do with garage band these days. I don't know if you know this but I have realized that so many of the people in this group are musicians. Not, I don't mean this for people here. But so many people that I talked to it always comes up that I'm not, but that they're musicians and I think that's a real fun thing to play with. I love that. And I think we should play with that more like, like, see what that means Bentley. And then come to that point I think what might be good also to add to that document is kind of these list of needs that you just listed off. And then I think we also kind of need to give a perspective on what type of, if any compensation, they should be expecting. Equity or, or, you know, promise of future earnings more than actually, because it's not a profit business, but, or would there be some there what, you know, yeah, that sort of thing. Yeah. So under, let me put under budget compensation as a new section. These are heading twos. Nope, having ones. And then let me create another section for needs, which goes right under I think the web presence I think it's like right top. If it's convenient to save me time if you could paste the link to that I can go look forward as well. You bet I can. Of course I can. Lazy web. Yeah, I know I should have done that. I apologize. Not to get ahead of anything and I know and it's not, you know, I know you're working you want to get this first show done, but just projecting a little bit into the future, it would be nice. Maybe this might be a different group of people working on this, but somebody to be able to chart what connections are made and if any new collaborations result from it. There's no way to follow up. Yeah. And I'm wondering if maybe like somebody like Sam Han would be interested, you know, you know he's a friend of mine we were chatting about this yesterday. And I'm just wondering if you know, maybe we can start bringing people into things that touch on leaving the world, but become a separate pod. Yeah, exactly. I like that a lot. It triggers lots of different thoughts and we should probably stay on it for a bit. One thought is that, you know, I've been asking Harlan for an RSS feed I gave up but 15 years ago I was asking for an RSS feed out of the brain so that as I made connections in my brain somebody could subscribe to them and see what I've added. And he said I don't see a reason for that feature. And one of the motivations for having an open source brain is that that would be an easy thing to add or design in or whatever else. But that's just one tiny aspect of what you just said. I mean, another piece of it is, and maybe this is good maybe this is bad I don't know but but self reporting of friendships that have been built because of our connections. So self reporting of projects that are born in these discussions and then turn into something and then turn into an asset or something like that but but it's a little bit like it toward the next bullet question which is what are our intended outcomes. What is our expected outcome. I think that if this works well we become a little star nursery for connections and innovations and, and other kinds of things that start to fix the world. So I don't see us as the as the birthplace well, I don't see us as the birthplace of brand new ideas for how to fix the world I think I see us as the integrators and connectors of other people's fabulous ideas. And one of the things that we might get good at is helping two communities realize how much they have in common, and suddenly begin cooperating a lot more than they used to or blend in some interesting way. Does that make sense. It makes sense, just having been in groups like like with Sam whose whole intent is collaboration. I know the difficulties that are there. And I think they know these I think I think a lot of people want what we're looking to do in terms of that. I guess I'm looking to say how we're going to measure that. Yes, with the caveat that sometimes there you don't want to measure some intangibles because you screw them up. If we have a if we have a rating system where everybody's contributions get rewarded with some kind of coin that we meant inside of the network. To me that would probably screw up a lot of the intrinsic reward of participating, pardon. No, I didn't mean that and I know a way more human centered approach. Yeah, whether it be you know some sort of you know, follow up show or after that I mean I don't know just throwing it out there. It could even be a ritual where we were after every episode or something we sort of check in with the crowd and say hey, what new connections got made, like, like, you know, what new fabric got woven. As a result of these sorts of things, but then, but then we need people to actually sort of know to report in in that way it needs to be more than just a simple question asked it needs to be part of our dynamic in some bigger way. Yeah, I mean I know you've mentioned to me before that you know if I, you know wanted to do something like correspondency like, and I was thinking you know, I mean, again, and I don't know that this would be, you know, aired, but I'm thinking that I might want to follow up with the show after the show and sort of make that human, an additional human connection after it's over and maybe see what happens there with whoever wants to, you know, participate I mean I have a couple of people that I think would, you know, maybe it becomes another conversation. There's also this just by example but there's a process that the military uses that other people use also now called the after action review. And it basically says what was this thing trying to do. Did we do it how could it be made better, and it's not an attempt to lay blame on anybody because what you want is participants to be really open about what happened. It's a little bit like the writer's workshop process also in that you're really trying to make the work better and not critique the author. And so in the action, you know, after action review you're basically trying to learn from what what just happened and I think we could have our own flavor of kind of post processing. That's also about, you know, what can we learn about what we just did that would make the whole process better, or, and I think you're you've got a really nice angle on this which is like, how do we learn about. How do we learn about the good connections that got made through the process. Right feeling we're going to find, as we go along, people that knew each other that didn't know they knew each other, people that knew each other that didn't know that person was involved in that. And that's what I think is going to happen based on just my experience not having to do with film, you know, with whatever we're filming and that that's what I'm hoping for because that's weaving the world. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. With luck we with luck people like Oh, I knew I meant to meet you but then here you are kind of thing. Like, you know, we can bring people in who who are destined to meet and help help accelerate that destiny somehow. Other thoughts on that. What other impact. Let me just go around what other. What other facts would are on your wish list for something an artifact a series of events like this a community with with an thing that lets you know gives us a charter to go go around and ask questions and and build conversations and make connections what else would be good outcomes. Thank you've been doing this work for a long time. What do you wish would come out of it. Yeah, I, I wish something. I wish that the. I'll call it spin offs that there are lots of different spin offs, which mean that people have met either new people or new ideas have gone away and done something concrete with them. I'm, I'm really the guy who likes to combine inspiring thoughts and real action in the world. So I could imagine that you meet the right people or suddenly you're, you get an insight into an idea or some thinking that you were never aware of, and you say, Yeah, I'm going to take this and do something with it. And I think that and what what's fun is that that doesn't build your central audience you don't because you don't hear about all these spin offs very often they just go do stuff. But that's a sign of like a really generative community when when lots of people are meeting up and creating things and going off and doing them together. I think that's a great idea. I mean, in a really great world where what what where this sort of starts working. One of my major goals is humans start being able to collaborate on big questions about how to deal with climate change or racism or or immigration or whatever together together much better than we are now and we start to melt some of the log jams that exist in the world. And then, you know, right now we're just like an ant in the great field of humanity we're just kind of moving around trying to do a tiny thing. But if we do this right, and it's contagious, and we model it well and we offer resources and all of that. My goal, my goal is, because because when we get on the Thursday calls and Doug Carmichael says hey the house is on fire.  They're right. And my approach to that problem is that there's a huge breach and lack of trust, and that this lack of trust has us in in lockups worldwide on all these issues. And we are unable to make progress, you know, the Biden administration could fail in the next couple months because it was unable to pass anything or do anything because it has this thready bear majority like like a majority by a hair's breadth, kind of. And then that's, that's a world in which it's really hard to do stuff. Now, on the other hand, I lived in Barcelona for nine months a long time ago, and Barcelona had sort of two governing bodies which were opposite politically. And several people commented to me that the fact that these these two government bodies were kind of against each other was really sort of fruitful for Catalonia, because they weren't like doing too much to destroy the area like if they had been aligned too much power they might have like run the table in some sense. So all of that gets into policy discussions that are above my pay grade. But I'm trying to figure out how do we get beyond national governments how do we get humans collaborating on local scales how do we get people, you know, standing up and causing large scale change. How do we help that happen. So, so part of my intention is to, is to help us act on a very large scale together. And I realize that, like way ambitious or overly optimistic for what we could do but but I'm, but I think everybody who cares about the future has a different theory about theory of the world of theory of change about how these things tip. And, and mine focuses an awful lot on trust, which is not a topic we focused a lot on in OGM. We've been geeking a lot we've been focusing a lot on the shared memory. And for me, a visible palpable shared memory actually shared memory of what we're seeing go by and what we think about it is really important for building trust so. So for me that's a mechanism not just to memorialize stuff. It's actually a mechanism to get to trust. But we're busy on like, hey, should it be marked down or some other format is a different conversation from, how are we vulnerable and how do we meet the other. Right. Those are completely different parts of the same general mission. And I would love for the guests and the, and the themes of the episodes in weaving the world to wander that space. So I would love to mix a geeky episode with three non geeky episodes. And I certainly don't want, I don't I don't want leaving the world to become free juries brain calls that's like not not a goal here. I don't want to go, go. I don't even know how to describe it, but you're doing a good job. Other thoughts does this trigger any other, any other connections or ideas about impact and what to do. And Stacy, how do you envision measuring the connections made you. Self reporting, if so collected and visualized where do you have, do you have more. I think part of the whole reason for even thinking of that is that it might bring in other people that have their own vested it like somebody like Sam who's working on collaboration. It might bring somebody like that that sees something to this project that adds another piece to it. And again, I'm only, I mean, when you talk about trust, I look at trust a little bit differently, because I will only go into a space where I'm already trusting the people, and then as it grows I don't have to be as concerned about it because I know the core has been trustworthy. So like this group to me is a trustworthy group. I spend a lot of time in GCC calls, they're a trustworthy group. There are other places I don't go for that reason because it has to have a strong core. I kind of alluded to Bentley about that once. I don't know if he picked up on that's what I was saying, but So that part comes naturally, because I mean hopefully, we're not going to pick some guest who's just a horrible person and highlight that person. Well, we may pick we were I think we need to mature and be secure enough and strong enough to get to the point to invite some relatively horrible people whose ideas we disagree with sharply, and to hold that space in a way that works. And I'm not entirely sure what all that means but Okay, so here, here's what I just want. I just want to make a distinction. Trust doesn't mean that I agree with the person. Yeah, us means that they're intellectually honest when they're having a disagreement. Yes, and And that they don't personally attack personally. It's a it's an emotional. It's an emotional IQ position in a sense. I know the problem is that the way that trust is being weaponized on purpose right now directly goes into those things you just want to avoid as tactics, like personalizing the attacks, being actually dishonest, like denying facts undermining science, post truth, all that kind of stuff like, like all of that is a kind of intellectual dishonesty. There's another version of it all which is like oh I just, when I look at the same set of data and facts I derive different conclusions than you do, which which was more more intellectually honest way of going about it and that that's super But I think that the boundary between those two things is really really thin because, because the alt right, the far right has figured out that undermining the very things that you that you just described is key to winning elections and like steam rolling the world. And so, so I'm trying to figure out, where's the, how close to that edge can we work. And we're not anywhere near close to that edge right now we're not we're not in those conversations. So somebody that does it really well is Russell Brand, he's really good at that. But you bring up another point that goes towards maybe the way we look at some of this. One of the things that the right does really well is they build off of each other.  I think maybe we should look to do that because interestingly enough, as I've been thinking about what do I think are good ideas all of a sudden. I'll say, Oh, Jim rut did that podcast. That's good that person was here. And rather than I think sometimes people that are more. What's the word, less, you know, like people like us tend to shy away from either repeating or we don't want to infringe upon what somebody else is doing. And I think we have to change that and see it as we're amplifying what they're doing. And we're adding and we're making it stronger, as opposed to, we're trying to engage or take away. I think that makes any sense. Actually, it does. And from from my perspective. Let me just show you a show you a thought in my brain that's been in my brain for quite a while. So, conservatives nurtured an ecosystem of blogs Twitter accounts actually I should add am radio talk radio. Basically, you can't drive across this country listening to radio without being inundated by conservative voices and talk radio. And there's a reason for that. There's like a really systematic strategic reason for that particular fact. And so you can kind of go through this. And part of part of my understanding of the far right strategy and in the middle right to like normal conservatives started this back in the 60s. And the strategy was, hey, we need to own this conversational space, and we need to do message management, so that when something starts somewhere, we can, we can cause the left to have to talk about it by bouncing it up and down in this echo chamber. Right. And once it starts gathering volume then the left is, you know, CNN is is amiss if they don't actually report on this thing that we just drummed up and started, you know, critical race theories being taught everywhere in our schools is being forced on anybody's throat. Actually, it's not it's an obscure discipline that nobody's forcing down anybody's throat, but hey, once you echo that through the system loud enough it suddenly becomes a thing that people can get incensed about, and go scream at and threaten their school board about, which is happening we're just watching that being lit on fire, completely intentionally and with great success. So like public officials who are not being paid much or anything for some of these positions are being driven out of office, because they don't want threats on their life, you know, we know where you live. We're going to come get you is not a thing you want to do that's not why you signed up for the school board. Right. So so that's that's busy happening. And I think the progressive side does reference itself but doesn't build the same kind of energy because it's not involved in the same intentional strategies. And then on the left on the progressive side there are movement makers like Jeremy Hyman's who who started purpose.org and a bunch of other people who are trying to figure out how the how these dynamics work, right. And I'm not sure that the left knows nearly as well as the right, how these dynamics work. One of the other pieces of my sort of skeptical observation on the right. Do you guys know about the OODA loop.  Let me just screen share real real quick this is. Observe Orient Decide Act. It comes from an Air Force Colonel named John Boyd who was a real maverick real brilliant brilliant crazy guy, who is the kind of guy he would, you know, he would call his, his subordinates at 2am and say I just had a great idea we got to do this we got to do this. And, and he did a lot of really good things one of which was inventing this thing, which is meant for dog fights so observe one of the immediate facts at hand, we're over North Korea, I'm in a saber he's in a mid 17. He's got 2000 feet on me we're climbing. What else can you infer from those facts. He's, he's probably a North Korean pilot trained by the Russians, his airplane can out climb and out shoot me but not out dive and out turn me.  And Lloyd's claim is whoever runs through this loop faster wins the dog fight. And he invented this for dog fights, but in the second section of the biography of Dick of John Boyd. The author credits Dick Cheney who was a huge fan of void and was a secretary of defense under Ford. Right. So, here's quorum thanks Cheney for all his help in the biography of boyd and this is in my brain because I think this is actually really important. I would say, conservatives have applied psychology and sociology and all those things much better than liberals have, because these observations that would a loop is how john Kerry did not become president the United States and we got bush instead with some hanging right is that if you remember swift boating and flip flopping and so like Kerry had no understanding, Kerry had no ability to respond to those things, because, because the far right was busy arming this this this weapon. The far right understood how to weaponize communications between the echo chamber and the little loop so so the little loop is a strategy that you feed into the echo chamber, and it took them 30 years to build the echo chamber. Once you've got a highly functioning echo chamber, then you start feeding it ammo and the ammo can be as bizarre, and it's crazy as as you want.  And this thing actually really really works. And I'm trying to figure out, how do you throw a blanket over it. How do we suppress the fires with listening with with with care and love vulnerability contrary facts don't usually help. So all these different sorts of insights are showing up in the public sphere, and I'm desperately interested in what dampens this insane effort to, you know, light us all on fire. And it's, it's quite intentional. And it's quite and it's very strategic and it's very well thought through from a hey how do human minds work how do human crowds work. I don't think I can do this it's really nicely thought through there, and I don't think that the appropriate countermeasure is to adopt the same tactics. Right, but I don't think anybody's figured out yet what the appropriate countermeasures are. The closest I can get is Stacy Abrams saying slow down the canvassing and let's actually slow down and have conversations. It's just like a bare bones, tiny little start but deep canvassing is the name of, let's go slower when we actually knocked door to door, because just knocking saying here's a pamphlet and leaving does nothing just irritates the people you just got up off the couch. Right, but actually sitting down and listening to them with respect that actually might get somewhere, even better, having dinner, you know, dinners for six with people who have different ideas. Brilliant idea. Well, what made you what made you say I was just talking about that. Did I say, you did not but I think it's a really great tactic. Oh, I was, I was talking to somebody else about my list that I started that I mentioned to you guys. That was like the next one on the list something that I had learned from my rabbi when he was doing community organizing, and that's a great thing to do. And I had told Hank in a call once that I wanted to have virtual dinner parties. And we could have episodes of weaving the world that are dinner parties. You know, I love for I'd love to play with the format and what we're doing and how we go about it be really awesome. Let me ask you different questions. The other day you showed me on your map, contrarians who make sense. Yes. And the question that I wanted to ask you is in your list. Are they are they from both sides, or was it like I just wasn't sure. Mostly there are people whose opinions and insights. I appreciate in value. So, some of them are just not political at all. Some of them, you know, don't have a politics necessarily. But here's the thought so contrarians who make or made sense. I'll put a shortcut to this thought in the chat right now. I mean, probably these lean progressive in different ways. I'm not, I'm looking down the list. Joel Salatin is pretty religious and might be conservative don't know exactly. He's the head of polyphase farms. And he's his thing is natural farming basically, you know, rotating rotating crops and animals on the earth, etc, etc. That's interesting. And this sort of feeds back into the whole ecosystem of what we're now calling regenerative agriculture and so forth. I don't know how many of these people you might consider conservatives. So that's the reason that I'm asking you is because when you're talking about trust. Yeah, or even like when you bring up Stacy Abrams that whole thing about, you know, really getting to know somebody. So what I tend to do is if I'm in a conservative Facebook group or whatever is I look for the person that at least makes sense and can have an intellectually honest disagreement. And then you then you can find like common ground you can find ways to move and it is not the approach that we were talking about that the right uses and I think that's the way to do it. So that's why when I said, you know, when I said it has something to do with an emotional makeup. That's what I'm talking about finding somebody that you don't agree with. But if politics were kept out of it and you knew nothing about their politics, you'd actually like them.  I totally agree. I totally agree with that. And that's what I meant when I said we're not going to have bad people on. We're not going to have somebody that we wouldn't even want to have a beer with. Yeah, agreed, agreed. Bentley Hank any thoughts on this. Totally agreed. Sometimes you guess wrong. But I mean that's part of the learning process and I think if you try to communicate on the basis of what people really want out of life, or for their children or for their grandchildren. And what they something I used to do quite a lot. I had this five generations or 100 years exercise where you ask people, what did you learn from your father, your grandfather made you choose your present profession where you are present value set. And this type of conversation with people. Lots of people can discover that they learned the same things from grandparents, or want the same things for grandchildren only they express them in different ways. And that's an interesting start for a dialogue. Yep. Great. Bentley. Yeah, I, you know, I agree with Stacy's points and thrust. There might be times I have conversations with people that are intellectually honest but I wouldn't want to have a beer with, but I agree that part of my project is reaching out to your worst enemy and finding a way to communicate but that's a different thing than this. Yep. So yeah, so I think that's all good. If I can then kind of. I don't know how long you have slated for this meeting Jerry will come in. I was thinking we were at the top of the hour and probably near done, but I'm happy to hang out and keep it if there's a fruitful vein you'd like to follow I'm happy to stand. I guess. What I'd like to do is say, you know, I think probably the first thing to kind of keep moving. I think that we have a lot of people attending these calls that are very generative and not very narrowing right so I including me by the way. Maybe, maybe, maybe particularly. Guilty, guilty, guilty. So we're generating a lot of great ideas that are, you know, be perfect for six months from now. So I, yeah, maybe we could talk more about that kind of producer role who would be kind of in charge of it at times, narrowing us down and doing that and I, you know, I'm kind of available. I can do that. Well, let me say, if I can eke out some funds from it then I can be available for it, but anytime I'm working on that I'm taking away from, you know, my other project so I need to like, make it at least self sustainable. But I don't know if you're, if you're ready for that project so that's a conversation, I think either you and I had need to have or we can have the next meeting. But I'm also not the best at that I mean I've managed projects and I've done all that, but there are better people than me, they just may not be available for this. And there's a couple, there's a couple people sort of swirling in this conversation, who have lots of project management experience and ops experience. I just don't know that they want to be the producers of this show. I'm just interested in offering some of their chops to OGM broadly or weaving the world or something like that and I haven't had that conversation with them.  And the second thing is that some of the funds that the foundation just gave us to build a show with our for video production audio production so so there are some funds in there, and also some of them are to build a couple tiles of basically code that need to be that needs to be generated as part of this. And so I was talking yesterday with Pete about one of the tiles for for automating some of the production for for what happens. So that I think that'll, I think all these things can flow together and we can figure this out. And I think I think a piece of this first two month project piece is to figure out how to get more funds not just with the red foundation but with other other places. And you know, one of the things that I need to do is go go ask other other folks for funding, at least interim funding until we figure out other forms of floating our entity. One of my side weird dreams is that we could sell NFTs of snapshots of our process, because I look at the world of NFTs, and pretty much every digital object is a nonsense object, a few of them are pretty, but they're all pretty much nonsense objects and sold as collectibles, because they're unique and stamped with the, you know, with with with NFTs. And I think that a market of actually meaningful NFTs, this is what the world looked like at this moment in our journey to try to fix shit that matters might might actually be interesting.  And if that, and if, and if the fifth sale of an NFT funnel 10% of that transaction back into our community, and that turned out to be a lot of money. We're good. We actually then don't need to appeal to anybody for for grant funding, we're then self sufficient. Right. One of the lovely things about NFTs is that most of them include a percentage of sub of subsequent sales back to the originator. That's that that one thing to me is gold. It's really magical. So, so maybe we send a piece of our effort on something like that I don't know. I'm really interested in that. And like, and the first part of the conversation here about artwork, you know, artwork connected to a brain snapshot connected to a conversational snippet, made into a collage artifact and then put in, you know, offered as as an NFT might in fact be appealing to some people. Sorry, Bentley. I was just saying the other thing, I think they need to try an NFT where you're renting it instead of buying it and trading it. But in order to be the owner, you have to put in more continuously. That's me. Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so, so yeah, maybe we need to figure out that and what, like some sort of compensation could also be just like I'm tracking my hours and there's no Garen, you know, we've talked about that before there's no that they'll ever be a payout. But, but we do need to kind of, I think, having that that little donation which probably isn't enough to produce the first show. I think you need to put some thinking around on that on on how much is that just reserved for people we can't get to volunteer or put in sweat equity. Yeah. Is there a simple hour tracking system we could institute just to start doing that. We could use toggle, which I think it's free version is pretty good to GLE. But you might float it with other people that might want to participate so like the although you could also just do an air table sheet and have people put in a number of hours and kind of what they were working on. Yeah. That maybe people may not like having to download toggle. Right. And it's kind of like on off I use it, because I can't remember. I don't have something. Well, I was just going to ask if you even have a budget formulated, I don't mean specific, but if you've even written down how much is going to be a lot allotted towards this that and the other things that this was a this was a disagreement ahead of my marriage all the time, you need to start with a budget. Not, you know, you need to at least divide it into categories. Yeah. So I put them in the document or staring at it says budget but there isn't much behind that at this point there. So I have kind of a starting quote from Jim rutz producer, who I had a nice conversation with we talked about sort of gear and other sort of stuff, and he offered sort of hourly rates for for helping. So he's so he's available but he's not a he's not a booker or a show producer he's more like the mechanics of producing the videos. Yeah, I'm not talking about budget going out. I'm talking about just looking at it and saying this much is being reserved for this this much is being reserved for that. It's not even how it's going to get broken up. Yeah, yeah. At this point, rough. Yeah, only rough. Yeah, yeah so like is it a third one for the show. One third one third further. So, so the recommendation has sent over $25,000 $10,000 of which is for me and then 15 is for production help and and the tiles. That's the rough. Yeah, so just a little ballpark then would be to think is that 5000 per tile and then five for the show or that, you know, that's roughly what that's like. That's what I'm thinking. Okay, so that's a good starting point. Yeah, that's now you know you probably throw that under the budget. Yeah, that's that's kind of the framing I've got around it right now. Yeah, I probably didn't need to head out we but yeah so a little bit more discussion on the budget. Okay, good. And let's go to the, let's go to the manner most channel and work together there, I think, because there's lots of lots of stuff I need to sort out fast so that we stand up some shows soon. Including I need to propose schedules and stuff like that. Should there be a standing hour like we have standing calls like this one every week should there be a standing hour for the show or should I just book each episode. When the guest is available, just some wherever it falls in the week that they're available that I'm available and whoever else is participating on the calls available should that should be more more pop up nature or should there be a like a schedule. I like the pop up nature to tell you the truth. And if it's really good people will show other things in their schedules aside. If you've got a deadline of first Wednesday of the month, then you're getting into all sorts of stress for will we have a really good show, but that's just the first impression. And also on the pro side for pop up is that it makes it much easier to schedule with with guests because you don't have to wait until they're free at your designated hour on them on the con side. Some people just love to have a time that they can set every week that they show up her stuff, but we're moving away from from scheduled programming we're moving away from, you know, must see TV into a world of Hey, you, you know, we drop a whole season on a day and you eat it when you want to eat it. Do you have a calendar or a schedule, you know, a schedule where I've not got I've not gone to Calendly I'm on the cusp of doing so but you know budget basically. So yeah I would suggest probably should spend some of that money on because it's painful to sit with potential, but I've seen people are fine if you send them a link that they can do it at their own time. And I'm not even sure I'd suggest Calendly at this point I'm using them. I'm on the free tier actually. There's a savvy cow but that one doesn't have a free tier I don't think that's the one I'd probably suggest if I was paying really okay. So I don't think I've heard of them. Have you decided how long the show each show is going to be, is it going to be a set time. I'm thinking they're 90 minute episodes, but I'm not sure. I'm totally open to. But part of it is that I've done lots and lots of conversations like these now and I just I find that at the 50 minute mark they're just getting warm and juicy and like like we're really starting to hit our stride and ending ending then at the 60 minute mark or 55 minute like cuts off something that you know is right there. And then and then at the 90 minute mark people are starting to get a little exhausted of the focus and attention. And you know, it's good to sort of wrap things there and usually usually things can wrap by 90 minutes. That said, when I go and see 90 minute podcast episodes on like Jesus Christ that's long how am I going to listen to all that. But then a piece of what I think we want to do is digest and reprocess and post process a lot of these calls so that you could find your way to the 15 minutes you think you're going to like, I think that that will. I think if we do that right that will that will make our longer podcasts actually very amenable to to sort of grazing. I'd say 90 minute recording and it probably would be 30 to 60 edited. I think how much editing down there is yes. And at the beginning I don't expect to edit down that much. As we as we move in we might actually edit a lot. I don't know we might actually create create four different objects from one call I don't know but but at the beginning I'm going to I'm going to put front matter but you know intro outro on the video editing so it's clip out whatever things were obviously bad but not do a tremendous amount of editing because also the you know video editing is really time consumptive. And so I'm just I'm just at the beginning going with the raw bumpy feel. I'm just thinking about like some of like the late night entertainment shows how they start off with a particular type of segment move on to another type of segment, and then you know, and that would help in terms of people come in getting getting what they want. Exactly, and we kind of need to create our own vocabulary and rituals, which is partly why a piece of the conversation I want to have here is, what do we call the shadow show. Is it the post show is it the fungus, the fungus segment is like, like, what do we call the post processing part where we're not trying to dig up new new ground. But we're trying to follow the threads of what happened during a particular episode. Right. And I'm not exactly sure yet. I think that's a piece of our ritual and and other aspects may well be checking in on people to see what new connections were made, or other sorts of things we may bake that into the normal closing process for a call, for example, don't know, open to all that. And just to be clear. Yeah, I am here to volunteer and to assist in any way with the future hope that if something happens and I learn. I'm not going to give it but I love assisting awesome. Thanks Stacy. That's great. And yeah, thank you all this has been really, really helpful, as we broaden what we're doing. I've been keeping a running a note taking in the document. If you have a look at it, you might want to consolidate things or shift them around, but I've been trying to write down the various things that have been said in the right place, and still keeping a bit open. So that as questions arise that haven't been answered yet. We can answer them. That sounds great. Thank you Hank. Appreciate it. Sweet. Thanks everybody. There's a lot there. So they say. There was always a closing of Hill Street blues. Yeah, those good old days.