You can now follow me on all my social media platforms to find out who my latest guest will be and don't forget to click the subscribe button and the notifications bell so you are notified for when my next podcast goes live. Ben, we're on? On today's guest we've got Bigh Jean. How are you brother? Hey, what's going on, Miss Denglish? What's going on with you? It's really good mate. First and foremost thanks for coming on the show. Appreciate you having me. Bodyguard for all the celebrities known to being P. Diddy's main guy, you were there when Biggie was killed, you've worked with 50 Cent, you've been a bouncer as well, a doorman, you've done a lot of stuff in your life, very outspoken as well, but very well respected, a lot of people do like you out there, you've released a book which will plug straight away, working people buy your book. Before we get into everything though, I always like to go back to the start with my guests, get more of a bit of understanding of what's going on with Biggie. Before we get into everything though, I always like to go back to the start with my guests, get more of a bit of understanding about Eugene, where you grew up and how it all began? I grew up in St. Louis, Missouri, until about I was 12 years old and I moved when I met my mother at 12, I moved with her into the little subdivision of St. Louis County which called Welston and I stayed there until I graduated high school and the day I graduated high school the next day I went to college to play ball at Alcorn State University in Swack and Lorman, Mississippi. When you say met your mother, what happened? At the age of two, my grandfather came to my mother house, he didn't like the situation, he had left us with some people, he took us, me and my little brother, which was just one and I was going on three. He took us from my mother and told her not to never step foot in his house or come and see us so we grew up thinking that our grandparents were our parents until my grandfather got on his death bed and died and that's when I met my mother for the first time. How was that feeling thinking you've been raised by your mum and dad not finding out with your grandparents? The situation would have been better if the household was what it was supposed to be in a traditional, you know, grandparents where they was taking care of the kids and everything like that but my grandfather was a gambler, he was a street guy, he worked every day but he had a real bad gambling problem. He used to gamble with Sonny Liston and a lot of other people that were in the mob and stuff like that, you know, people with bad guys in St. Louis, Missouri so you hardly ever seen him but then when you saw him nine times out of ten you was getting a beating so it was pretty bad growing up with him but it made you strong and made me who I am today.  It depends on who else you meet in life. I met a man named Willie Drake Sr. He was a guy who was in the armed forces from Philadelphia raising his family on the block where my mother lived at and he taught me what it was to be a man and whatever happened to me as a child let that stuff go.  See when you were raised by your grandparents did you have an incline of like an understanding of there's something not quite right or did you just 100% believe that it was your parents? 100% believed that it was my parents until me and my aunt got into it and I had got big enough for them to stop picking on me because they used to pick on me a lot and then when we got into a fight she told me because she was upset that I had beat her up. You know, know that my grandmother was my mother and all the big beans and gas spilled and then when my mother came with my father, my grandfather was sick, then all of it came to light. What was that feeling for you? I didn't understand it because I didn't understand what it was to be love because that wasn't a word in our household. So if you don't understand what love is, how can love hurt you? So I didn't really understand it just that I just thought that's what it was because at the time when I grew up you do what I say.  It was like you got to realize in a black American family the child wasn't able to speak his voice or say what he say or really have feelings. My grandparents were strict southerners that they found they love an extension card or belt and beating you.  More fear? It was a fear until you get to the point where you just don't fear anymore.  What was it like, what were you like at school? Unbelievable I was pretty smart. I had an aunt that was a choice deal. She was high on education and she would teach me everything even when I was getting beaten for using my left hand. Because as a child growing up they thought it was bad for you to be left handed. So she kept me whereas I was getting A's and B's and I did pretty well in grade school and middle school and things like that. How was your temper? My temper? I don't think I had a temper. I wasn't the guy that was, I picked on people or did nothing like that. I was a guy that I wasn't turning down on fights but I wasn't the type of guy that I was, I had to get into a fight and I had to do that because it was big in my neighborhood that I grew up everybody fought or boxed or did sports or something like that. So you having a temper didn't make a difference. I learned at an early age the ones who lose his head is the one who lose the fight.  I think that's, I think when you deal with sports and you get into sports at an early age and then you meet people in your life that can help you like Papa Drake did, it can turn that around. He was a boxer in the army, he played basketball, all the things that I loved, he helped me. So when I was sharpening my skills in basketball and boxing, he was the one who taught me and he would always not only teach you the game of fighting, he would educate you about the knowledge of boxing or learning the technique of boxing and basketball. So you could outdo your opponent.  You could never lose your head.   Was a sport a getaway for you as well where you could release a lot of anger? Well, I would say you call it anger, but I didn't look at it as being anger. It was just the personality that I knew. It was just something that you grew up with. So I wasn't like, I'm angry at everybody, angry at the world and nothing like that. No, it wasn't like that. I can't say that, even though I didn't have, even though I was the type of kid that I would go to neighbor's house because we may not have a meal. You know what I'm saying? I'd just be praying and hoping that they, you could eat over there or something like that. But I wasn't in spite of what I've seen and what I've been around and what I worked with for the years because, you know, I was a parole officer for the years. And I could see whereas that people who had those lies and what they end up that. So I don't think that I was an angry person. What was your first ever job? What was your first ever job? Oh, shoveling snow. What's that? Shoveling snow, if you want to call it.  Work at the grocery stores when you picking up bagging people groceries and carrying them to their cars or carrying them to their houses. What else? Working, if you're talking about legal, when you first got a paycheck, when you did summer youth, you know, and because they have the summer youth jobs where you cut the grass and stuff like that and work in different places, centers. Those were my first jobs. But my first job out of college, I was a youth counselor and counselor at Brandeis High School. What made you choose being a youth counselor? Is it because of the stuff that you went through as a kid so you could understand? Now I think it's just like when you first get out of college, you don't know what you really want to do. You know you went and got this degree. But whatever could pay the bills first until you get settled or you just keep on putting in applications and you keep on putting in your resume to do something that you want to do. So it wasn't nothing I had to do with. The guy said I was good at it. I was great at it. And that was probably based on my raring how I came up. But I didn't go say I want to be a youth counselor or I want to be into the Department of Juvenile Justice or nothing like that. It just happened. It just was a job. What happens with the basketball kiddo you? I was the leading scorer and the leading rebounder coming back from the University of Tennessee at Chattanooga. We had just got a new coach. He just wrote a book. His name is Mack McCarthy. And he brought me into his office. Now we had people like Willie White, Russ Shaney, Gerald Wilkins the year prior to me going there had gone to the pros. The pros was looking at our school and I've had one of the top guys in basketball said his name was Gene Bartow from University of Alabama. He had wrote and said that I was probably one of the best unknown big forwards at a division 1A school when Mack McCarthy came in there and became the coach. He wanted to bring his new guys in and things like that. And he sat everybody down. He sat me down separately because he wanted to talk to us.   So he had it out for me.  You can look at the stats, you can ask any member from the University of Tennessee, Chad Nugar at that time, from Dwight Harris, Mo Morrice, James Hunter, anybody who played at the University of Tennessee at Chad Nugar from 84 to 86 that I deserved to be the starting player coming out of there. But he just benched me and he used other players to come at me. And one player came at me after we had the season was over, we was going into the playoffs. And I broke his nose, broke his jaw and hurt him pretty bad and they threw me off the team. Why did the coach target you? Is it racism involved or how does it work? I wouldn't say no, no racism because I would say racism. I think the fact that when you had somebody that was as strong as me mentally and that you want to show the players that you see this guy, he comes to practice every day. He's going to school to get his education.    So he wanted that power with the team. So who better yet to use the strongest person on the team, the person to go in the class. I'm going to show you, I'm going to use him as an example. No matter what you do, it's going to be up to me. So what happened after you kicked out? Went on and finished my education.  Yeah, he attacked me. It just didn't work out the way he thought it was. So you can still stay at college? Yeah, because he didn't press charges. I didn't press charges. I was under contract for that year. So I finished off that year and graduated. How was it getting a degree? How was that feeling? Being the first deal that ever do that, it felt good. But I didn't have the family backing as you thought that people should have when they had accomplished something like that. So I just got my degree and three days later moved to New York. Why New York? I had a chance to go overseas to play ball in Germany and with this guy, Jackie Knowles, he was going to help me and my girlfriend was from New York. So I went to stay with her and her parents until I was getting ready to go overseas. What did you do then? I tore my knee up in the doctor told me that if I continued to play ball, I wouldn't be walking when I got 50 years old. So actually when I became a youth councillor and started working with the Manhattan Valley Youth Program and Brandeis High School. What's the league working with the high school and the program here? Is it for naughty kids? Is it for dammies kids? How does it work? For the program, it was for damaged kids. For the high school, it was basically for kids who were targeted who had attendance problems. So we had to make sure to keep their attendance correctly, go out to their house, speak with their parents, let their parents know that they were having, it's like a truancy program and everything that we were doing. What do you think the main ingredient is for people being naughty, being bad, to see the resemblance of them being bullied and abused as kids or is it something totally different in your own mindset? Well, it could be a lot of different things. You have kids that have been abused and never be bad and go to school, do what they have to do. Then you have kids that are abused and they take it out on others.  You understand what I'm saying? Yeah, of course. So those people who get abused and take it out on others, they probably had nobody good coming to their life to show them or help them or let them see that they can be something different. How long did you, because you've done that for what, 23 years? Well, I was a parole officer for 27 years. 27 years? Yeah, but I worked in social service for all together for like 30 years. So how did you build up the reputation of working with some of the biggest stars on the planet? Was that a man called Will or something? No, we were there and they do it, man. We had started this crew called the Sane Gang, but see back in St. Louis, when I was in high school, we had DJ crews, you know, and DJ crews was groups that the guys were DJ MC on the mic.   They have to have, you know, people around them. And I was one of the guys who were, was protecting them and also was a DJ. And one of the top DJs back in St. Louis was Dr. Shock. His name was Philip Haynes, and it was called Future Shock Music Production. They went on and broke up and they changed it to Dynamite Disco. So in St. Louis they had like five top DJ groups back in that time. And this was about 78, 79. And it was Future Shock Music Production, Dynamite Disco, R.E. Trice, Shotgun, and Holly Rock Productions. So those five groups used to all battle each other and everything like that, go to the clubs. So one of the guys who were on our team was a black belt in Karate. So his name was Cedric Malone. He's a pastor out in Virginia I think now. I couldn't afford Karate.  And he would teach me Karate and beat me up in the interim of teaching me. So he got me up to be in a brown belt, almost a black belt. This guy named Benny Smith used to run boxing over at the Salvation Army. So when we go over there to play at the Salvation Army and Salvation Army used to give you free meals. So you should go over there and get your free meal at the Salvation Army. You could play and everything like that. Benny Smith would teach the people boxing. So I learned boxing from him. But when I came to New York, I had already been good at boxing, good at fighting. You could see that. I was the enforcer on our basketball team and something go down. You know, they try to, you know, bum rush a team or somebody have a problem on the floor. I would be the first one to grab somebody or whatever like that. So we had started this crew called the same gang here in New York City when I came here. And it's a top rapper. He's known now. It's called ASAP Ferg. His father name was D Ferg. He was a designer. If you ever seen a bad boy logo or that uptown cat or uptown records, he was the one who designed that. So he used to work at the same youth program I worked at. And when we began to hang out with each other and everything like that, and he loved the way I played basketball, all this and everything like that. And in New York City at that time, all the drug dealers was playing, paying a lot of money for basketball players to come out and play for them. He understand? So I was like a ringer because they didn't know me. He understand here I am six, seven, you know, much better back then could do 360s, jump out the gym, all this and like that. I became a ringer because nobody knew me. You know what I'm saying? So we started this crew called the same gang. You know what I'm saying? So we used to give parties, boat rides, picnics, the whole nine yards. So because he had did that design for Puff Daddy, that bad boy design, he had did the uptown record design also. We were in the movie theater one time and all hell broke out. And I was standing next to this guy named Rick Dahl. He was a part of our crew and the guys were just fighting right there. I was like, yo, this is crazy. He said, yo, Gene, go help them. I said, my man, you don't want me to help them.  He said, Gene, go help them. And then after that, I just... Is that how your career started? That's how my career started. I'm just talking more like as far as, you know, they seeing what I could do with my hands. Because you could handle yourself? Yeah. And somebody else too. So they saw that. So then Puff got into a problem. And he wasn't even part of the same gang. He was just a friend of D-Fur. And he said, D-Fur told him, good gene. Because Puff was... He used to do these parties at the building called Unsigned Hype. And he used to do a party at the red zone called Daddy's House. But he had to take the money up to Kirk Burroughs. This was like 80, 89 or something like that. So I would be there with him. Make sure to pick him up, ride with him, drop the money off and everything like that. So that's how I became security for him. And then I started giving parties and everything. So I was doing my own security, hiring guys, putting security teams together. So at the center, sweet honey in the rock. I don't know if you've ever heard of them, but it's a group of ladies. They sing spiritual, Afrocentric motherland songs. And they was coming to Corner Key Hall and they needed security and a driver. And I did that for them one day. And I said, yo, I want to do this. So just working with Puff, working with the little, the Cotton Club, different organizations and stuff like that, setting up the security doing that. And then I got known. And then when Puff left Uptown Records and he had that beef with Shug Knight after the city college incident and all that stuff like that. I came and Wolf asked me would I be a part of their chain? And here is Wolf. Wolf was a security, Anthony Wolf Jones. He was security for Christopher Wimms, Heavy D. And he was a street entrepreneur with a crew called Butt Necket. And they were actually financing Bad Boy through the time. And they were doing their things in the street. Two of the guys actually went to jail and was convicted with nine, nine, 16 of life's sentences for distribution and cocaine trafficking. See the college game where nine people died and 26 people were injured. How was that? That was crazy, man. And it was like, we had 18 guys who were supposed to work outside. Puff had called me the day before that and said, yo, Jane, we don't need those 18 guys. We only need eight. I said, my man, you ain't going, you're not going to secure eight, use eight people to secure the front. He said, no, Heavy D said, we're going to use the F-O-I. I said the F-O-I. He said, yeah, Jane. So I told my man, I said, yo, man, I'm not even going to do it. And then he told me, he said, man, we just go ahead and do it. The stars are going to be there. And we just, Puff said, we don't got to do the outside. We'll just do the gym. He said, we'll do the gym. I said, okay, we'll secure the stars in the gym. And so nobody would mess with the stars that were coming in. When I got there and seen the setup, I went to Puff directly.  He was like, nah, jee, just let them do it. Let them do it. Don't worry about it. Go to the gym and help the people in the gym. You know what I said? Help the, you know, the stars that come in the gym and everything like that.  Mike Tyson, what's his name? LL Cool J.  Mike Tyson and LL in the same place.  And then next thing you know, when they burst through the glass door and they started rushing Jessica Rosenberg, I think Rosenberg with the money, heard one of the guys I put security on and they ran downstairs.  And that's how the people start suffocating downstairs. The dude radioed me. He said, yo, Jean, I can't breathe. I can't breathe. His name, Eddie. Eddie is one of the guys. He's home now. He had this 17 years in the Fed joints for distribution of cocaine. So he's here to tell this story too. So he said, Jean, I can't breathe. I can't breathe, Jean. And then I ran around the gym cut through the, ran downstairs, cut through the basketball court where they were still playing the ball lining up to do the layups and everything like that. And I pushed the door open and then people just started coming in. Then I pushed the other door open because the door only went inside. You had to push it from the inside. They locked from the outside. So I just pushed those doors open and people just started falling in. Then people was coming in. It was crazy. And the one dude that I told him not to hold up because he had nice and smooth, I was going to take them around the other way where the stars was coming in there. He said, no, I got him. He was laid on the floor dead. He was about six to three hundred and some pounds. He on the floor dead. So it was crazy, man. Because there was a girl pregnant as well, sheep? Yeah. One of the girls that were pregnant, that was this rapper that we know as called Father MC. It was his girlfriend.  This guy named Tom Wopper. And me and some other people got her out the glass door when they were bum rushing her. You know what I'm saying? At the top. We got her away. We was like, yo, ma. Go home. This ain't the place for you. Turned around because you know everything that was going on, she snuck down the steps and they found her dead too. How do you deal with that, June? I never did. It's crazy. I kept myself busy. I just was working, man. The curb was my pillow. The streetlight was my lamp. And I just worked, man. I was going from one job. I was a parole officer and parole at this time had the best job in the world because you made your own time. You had to do 37 and a half hours. So, you know, the bosses let you make your own time. As long as you did what you were supposed to do and you only had to be in the office one and a half days after week. And that's when the guys came in for reports, your analysis and you had to do what they call evaluation with your senior. So, you can let them know what you're going to do the following week and y'all make out your schedule. So, that was great for me because I would go from that job to another job to another job.  See that incident at the college? See if there were 16 men do you think it could have been prevented? If it were to set up, yeah. See what happens is that I learned what people was afraid of. Right? Post-op? Dogs. So, I'm telling you I was set up a box in one. You know what I'm saying? And I had that box so far away from the door. You know, when the people are walking through you understand they just going straight in and people are searching them right then and there. And then I have a man with two dogs. I have two men, each one of them have a dog and they're keeping the line straight. That's the fear that they put it in us from the civil rights era.  You have those dogs out there and you make sure people will get in line and line up. They're not bum brushing the doors with no dogs. Did you ever have that conversation with Puff after that event? After that event, he didn't want to have that conversation. Even at the big, he didn't want to have that conversation. So, now he didn't want to have that conversation. Because he was then fired from Uptown Records? Yes. And how was his life then? Because was he not suicidal at one point? Yeah. He was deferred. You know what I'm saying? We got to watch out for Puff because now he's become one of the same gang members. He's one of the members of our crew. So deferred, who had a lot of love for him, said we got to watch out for dudes. He talked about killing himself. And now I told D, like on a funny thing, and I know it ain't funny.  That's why. Shit, he don't listen no way. You know what I'm saying? But I was being sarcastic about that old situation because being suicidal is not a funny thing. And then he started Bad Boy Records? Well, Bad Boy Records was actually started at Uptown. It was a promotion. They had a promotional deal.  He was trying to... He brought Big E. He brought Craig Mack and all them to Uptown, but they wasn't going to let them do anything. They had not made records or anything like that at the time. Missy Elliott, no. How's that girl? Who's the other woman? She's unbelievable. Mary J. Bly. Mary J. Bly.   So how did these beef with Shug Knight start? Well, when he started getting into the record business... Excuse me. When he started getting into the record business, him and Shug was tight. They was boys. He learned in the business. Shug learned in the business. He started Bad Boy and everything. Shug started Death Row. They were... Puffer fly out to California. Shug, Tupac, all of them. They were cool.  And I think that he wanted to have a... Shug Knight wanted to have a party. Or Shug Knight was giving a party. So he wanted big and some Bad Boy artists or whatever like that at the time. And Puff was like, Yo, let me get the door. This is all what I'm hearing. I don't know how true this is. But this is what I was told about how him and Shug fell out. I don't know why the beef really happened after that. So Puff would not let his artists being them perform for free for Shug. Because Shug was getting money on the door in the whole nine yards. So I guess Shug fell out from it. That's the story I heard. But I know this for a fact. When Puff wasn't taking care of Mesa and was shouting to her on the child support or whatever like that, Mesa started branching out to the West Coast artists and everything like that. Mesa was his kid's mother, his first child's mother, Justin Combs. And she started branching out. And when she went to California with Mary J. Blis and everything like that, she met up with Shug Knight. We seen this magazine and the magazine had Shug and Mesa in it. And Mesa had Justin in her arms and Shug was hugging Mesa and at the bottom of the caption row, what the East Coast won't take care of, the West Coast will, right? That blew up.  That's why it went crazy. How ruthless was Shug?  He seemed crazy. But he only crazy didn't the people that you have around you. I never thought Shug was that dude like that. Did you never see any of that side of him? I didn't see him like that. I saw him four times. Four times I saw him, it was nothing. It wasn't no start out, no look or nothing like that. Because nine times out of ten, you could tell by man's eyes and then you want to wear sunglasses. If you got glasses on your face all the time and you don't want nobody to see your eyes and see what you really about. You understand what I'm saying? So when I see a guy with glasses on, I'm at an advantage anyway because I'm going to hit you so hard those glasses are going to mess something up.  So I never saw him as being that terrifying or anything like that to people. To me. Because he was a bodyguard also if he was there. I think he was in NWA with Dre and Ice Cube and trying to get himself involved with that but he ended up with some of the biggest artists on the planet. Was that fear tactics or was he a good businessman? I think Shug was a great businessman because he came out and got Joe to see and Mary J Blott out of some of the bull crap that Uptown Records were doing them. Where they wasn't getting no money, wasn't getting no points, no nothing that was on to them. I think Shug, because he was an educator also, he go in the college and I don't know if he got his degree or not but he learned the business from somebody enough to know that there were points and things that were involved and the artist getting outside the regular advance that was old to the artist and he was letting these artists and these people know. So see the beef between Shug and Puff Daddy, do you think that's the reason why Tupac and Biggy then because they were feeding them information? No, I think Puff already knew what type of dude Puff was and I believe that Puff was building big up so big could be a part of Thug life because he told Biggy you'd know how Puff was. You understand what I'm saying? So I think because when Puff went to jail Biggy did not have any money to help him get out but he was calling himself the king of New York and then they had this persona that he had all his money which he didn't. When did you first meet Biggy? The first time I met Biggy was actually I think at his platinum party. What was that like? That was crazy.  It's unbelievable. It's a picture that they had big and it said big and it's 100 hype men on stage with them and you can see me in the middle of all those people just looking at big because Puff told me to watch them. You know what I mean? So that's the first time I think I met Biggy at his platinum party. That you know how Biggy was going to be? Well, not really because I was running with Puff and a lot of times Puff wasn't around Biggy. You understand what I'm saying? Because Biggy was doing his own thing with the junior mafia and the different people like that. So when Puff needed to go out of town or go someplace I would be with him. I think it was probably at the Howard University campus when I met Biggy and really chilled with him and had fun with him. That was probably the first time and then that gold party was something later on. But I think it was at Howard University. Was that the bit that was in the movie when it came out? Was that the bit that was in the movie when it was at the university? When I think they sang Bullshit and Party? Yeah, I think so, yeah. So see when you're meeting all these people did you not have the incline that, okay, they're going to be as big? I didn't know Biggy was going to be a star or felt that he was a star like that until his whole album was done and he was getting all these accolades and then we was on stage because I had so much going on in my own life.  When I was in Bodyguard and Puff in them you got to realize I was still a parole officer. I still ran complexes in New York. That was Eastchester housing. That was Lambert housing. That was Tyno Towers. They were some of the baddest complexes where people were living there like drugs was being sold in the whole nine yards. So I was still working with the cops working with people, you know what I'm saying? To try to make their quality of life a lot better around there. So I didn't have time to really, okay, this guy is the star, this guy is the third. But we were in Cincinnati. I swear for living God. The Puffs of your Gen, I need you to be on stage with Big. So I went out on stage first and Big and Little Seas was in the back and they were doing this dance like kid in play. You know when they do the feet back and forth like that?    I was like, damn. So then the song going... And then Big was back on the mic. Just making noise like that. And then he just came out.  Paging me at 5.46 in the morning, crack a door on it and I'm yawning. Yo, when he came out there and I'm on stage.  And I mean like just the vibration from the audience and everything like that. And I was like, yo.  He's a star. That's when I realised he was that big. See when Puff, because obviously he ended up involved in hip-hop and doing his own stuff, was he writing his own music before he met Biggy or that, or did he want to involve once Biggy came into his life? Did he have any... Puff wasn't writing no music and then like the Puff never wrote no music. I told you, I don't write music, I write checks. Yeah, because he ended up involved and like you say, it was at the source awards. How was that when Suga went up on stage and says if you don't want your producer dancing in the video? That wasn't that. I didn't know anything about that. I wasn't there. They called me to go to the tunnel with them.  You know what I'm saying? Kirk, Kirk Burrows, they called me yo, Jim, Puff wants you to be at the tunnel. Because the tunnel was wild. It's like gladiator school. You know what I mean? You're going to fight the bouncer, going to rob you.   So we went to the tunnel, there was no beef or nothing like that. You know, and then they had that little incident in Atlanta and I came on full-back full-time messing with them. What was the incident when you were with Puff and you seen Suga and Puff ran? That was at the Soul Train Awards. Tupac was alive then. What happened that night? I think Big had performed, but Tupac was alive. Big had performed. He used my shoes. We were all in the locker room. The dressing room and everything like that. And this is the story that K.O. Coakland stole from me and put it in the movie. In the movie? Yes, in my shoes. It doesn't feel hard to get shoes. Is that your shoes? Those are my shoes. What happened was that K.O. Coakland, he had already wrote the book. If that was an intricate part of the movie, why didn't he have it in his book? Because his book was a portrayal of the movie The Notorious. He said he wish he had talked to me before and I had told him that I was going to put that in my book. Because he was asking me, what was some of the craziest things that happened to you and Big? Something that I told him a part about the shoes. We were backstage and they had bought Big a size 12. And him buying them a size 12, Big is a 14e. I said, why? I'm a 14d. You could squeeze in a 14d, but you can't squeeze in those 12d. So we sitting up there, and these people called 5,001. They were doing all the clothes for all the hip hop artists. Master Pete made them real famous. But they got them the wrong size of shoes. So Big was like, yo, I'm going to do it Brooklyn style. I'm going out in my Tims. I've got some yellow Tims on. He's going to go out there on stage. And Puff told the dude say, yo, if he go out there on stage with those Tims on, it's over.   So they somebody say, yo, Jane, what size you were? I said 14. 14d. I had just bought these shoes. I still got them. 800 dollars. Got them from Charonates. So they were blue.  So they was like, yo, that big word of shoes, man, what we got to give you? I said, make me an outfit. Right? Shit that I never got.  Get it first. Don't take their word.  You know what I'm saying? So big use of shoes. He performed in the shoes. He got my shoes. So that me and Puff was watching. No, no, it was me and Puff. No, no, me, I was watching. And I was sitting right behind, I think, Tamiya. Grant Hill's wife. Oh my God. I could have got a charge right there.  I was like, damn, he got to be one of the luckiest men in the world. You know what I'm saying? So it was over with. Went backstage.  And he's leaning on the back of them like they flip-flopped.    Man, I'm going to talk to your men. Man, give me my mother with the shoes right like that. You know what I'm saying? So I got the shoes back. And when we got the shoes back, I kept the 12s anyway. And me and Puff were just making our rounds. Bingham was leaving. So we hear on the microphone, there's an altercation at the front with bad boy and death row. So me and Puff, Jack, we started running towards that. When we running towards that, we get surrounded by a group of F.O.I. members.   So then I'm looking at this dude, and I got Puff like this, but I'm looking at this dude, he was telling Puff about some money, some type of situation. And I didn't know what the hell he was talking about. And then next thing you know, Mustafa, who was Farrakhan's son, who was the captain of the F.O.I., who was over all of security and all of F.O.I. members. You understand what I'm saying? That has to do with security, came over. And Puff said, Mustafa, would you talk to this brother for me right away? And so Mustafa said, your brother. So the dude was still going at Mustafa hard. And then Mustafa said, your brother in a convoys again. And then the dude was, he didn't stop. I was like, yep, Mustafa said, brother and got up in a space like this. Then you see F.O.I. members coming from everywhere. It was crazy. So we got up out of there and we started going to the door, to the front door. As we go to the front door, now it's a corridor with steps that are coming up.  We call him Big Bunny. Six-five, 300-some-pound. We out there. And he said that Tupac said, we saw it, we saw it.  But yet and still, when they came out, one of Big's partner, sorry about this, one of Big's partner, his name is, he's a Crip, his name is Seagutter.  The whole crowd, F-O-I's, they stopped it and get in between of it. Big and them get in their car and they leave. So they out front, I see them, Puff is behind me. We walking that way now.  And I looked back at Puff and I said, Puff, don't worry, I got these cats, bro. Ain't nothing gonna happen. And he said, didn't say anything. And then I looked back. He wasn't there. Then I looked that way. He had took off running and jumped down the corridor, riding back of the TV vans.  I put my back against the wall and showed them they was coming up the steps and they just walked past us. Walked past me and I seen Puff running in between the media vans. What do you think when a man does that, runs, obviously you're there to protect you, the security anyway, but when someone runs like that, do you lose respect for them? I wouldn't lose respect for them because that's his choice. And then it actually was God's sin because he saved me from doing something that I shouldn't have been doing in the first place. And then I would have done with no problem. Would you have died for him? I would have died for him plenty of times. Just loyal to your job, loyal to what you were doing? A loyal to him?  So I would have did anything to protect them at one time. I can respect that because back then as well people's dreams were being made. I don't know if people were getting used and money took off them. I don't know the ins and outs, I was never there but obviously you can read things in the press and go with other people saying but people were living their dreams back then no matter what you said about Puff that he was changing lives, he was getting people off the streets but even though people were making him he was also making them, would you agree with that? Well you have to agree with that but they didn't think that in the interim their dreams coming true they still was gonna be broke.  To get somebody, if you played sports you had people cheer for you by the thousands because you made a basket or you made a hit song that kind of feeling everybody is not privileged to. You understand what I'm saying? Everybody is not privileged of being on the stage whether it's that of sports or that in music. You have somebody that make that come true for you and your dream come true but then your rent ain't paid and they driving in a Mercedes it's kind of effed up. So he was making a part of their dream come true but I don't believe they thought they was gonna be hungry in the interim of that. Do you think that's lack of knowledge or lack of getting money and buying the big watch and the big car but leaving your bills unpaid where they try to live the high life but they've not really got the money to be doing so yet?  Everybody does that. You know what I'm saying?   So after that he runs away. How was the relationship between Biggie and Pac? Well I spoke to Big at the park. Was Pac there then at the Winnebago? Yeah and Big tried to tell me that he didn't know why Pac was upset with him but I knew why Pac was upset with him because he had signed with Puff and he had claimed to be something that he wasn't. So why does that upset him? Because like if you're supposed to be my man and you're the king of New York and my girls will come to you for some money because I'm trying to get a lawyer to get out of jail for something I didn't do if you're the king of New York and you're getting all this money why you can't help me when I helped you beat a king?  Well you gotta realize is that look at Big's flow look how Big was rapping before we got with Pac look at the party and bullshit right?   He took what you could call two-pox game plan money, cars holes and bros you know what I'm saying? and use that formula from party and bullshit you understand? use this formula and change it into I'm Big Papa I'm getting the money, I'm getting the holes I'm getting the cars and I'm rocking the jewels he used that formula 1994 when Pac get shot I think at the recording studio How did that change everything with everyone? Well I guess it put people on alert that this could happen to you too it should have let people know not to be involved with gang guys because I've been around people who spoke about that Jamie Foxx and Ice Cube talked about it when you bring gang, the gang faction and the people who live that gang life into your business like that they have a whole different perspective about life than you do they're you know they live in day by day and they'll kill you over colour and why did Pac did Ted T blame Big E and Puff at the start or was that later on because would they get shot four or five times? Yeah but he didn't blame Big E then because he actually knew Big E had nothing to do with it because the next day Big went up there with this other guy that I know and got the gun out the piano they went to the hospital they wouldn't let Big see Pac you understand but they let Pac know Big E had nothing to do with it he had the gun and whatever like that I think he probably just used that as a method to bring attention to the labels and to sell records because Puff is a businessman he knows how to play the game that's why he put out shots yeah I was just about to say that so who shot you but it's very I understand it because of the shooting and how much traffic they've got towards that involved not when it's people don't really know and then people would automatically go to it must have been them who shot him like it's a very dangerous game why play that game at all? You said it yourself and I don't think I can say it any better than that he's a businessman and he know that's going to bring countless and you can't even count the attention that's going to bring to the label to the song it was actually against LL Cool J Big was probably saying that against LL Cool J you know what I'm saying but Puff knew that people were going to think it was going to be from Tupac he didn't like Tupac at all I don't know him is he the jealousy or something went down between them two all the time that any girl that Puff was with he had to have her you understand and he got her got him he I really can't say I couldn't even tell you I couldn't find him to believe what was the reason why they hated each other so much but after Puff was shot we saw Puff rose land he had this stuff in the sling a dude lit a cigarette for him he got a cigarette put it in the mouth and the dude lit it for him and I started laughing he was like lighting a cigarette but then I forgot he was injured but if he's going after all his ex-girlfriends or whatever that's a sign of jealousy that's a sign of want to be him he had to be true because the same thing that Puff said before he said at the Grammy speech when he got his Grammy he said the same shit that Puff said so listen I can't tell you the reason why but there's certain actions you've seen like when Puff was wearing the Fasati shirt then Puff come out with the Fasati same Fasati shirt that Puff had on you know what I'm saying I don't know man that changed because obviously the east coast the west coast it kind of started a war did you see things change security was hiding certain places we had to go and we had to do you know when you do rounds before you go to those places to make sure everything is straight everybody wearing a bulletproof vest you know it was crazy people going on the alias standing hotels on the alias names how was it when two pack released his diss track because that was ruthless obviously you've got HQ you've got LL Cool J who's done the diss tracks many years before but that was up there as one of the most ruthless because obviously I fucked your bitch like how was that well I can say it didn't bother me it didn't bother me but and I like the song anyway but I used to hear big say next time somebody say something about me I'ma tell their ass up so when I hear other people saying that big didn't want to your big wanted to get back at pot so bad that he did it in a sneaky way and I think that long kiss goodnight was his way of getting his revenge back on pot you know what I mean why is it the not release of this track and response he did if you look at long kiss goodnight but yeah that's definitely talking about pot you know what I'm saying but I think that he didn't do a this track right at him like that was because that was something Puff was telling to him you got to realize Puff owned his marketing and his publishing and big wanted it back so he listened to Puff more than he really wanted to was Puff in full control was he in full control? somewhat well as close as what the movies make was Puff and Biggie close I don't think so I don't think so at all could Biggie have been getting used? he owns his marketing he owns his publishing well I think he sold it or whatever he gave it to the Wallace family I think he used it for so many years but I don't know the circumstances of it now but you got to realize if you own somebody publishing and somebody marketing then what you pay for it you know what I'm saying? so Biggie had no money even after Juicy even after the first album he died broke man Biggie died broke the money he got was from I think life after death album but he didn't get a chance to see it I saw that as in top man it was just crazy just being with him that whole day and he telling me his dreams and telling me what he wanted to do and how he was going to do it and it was crazy and then to see none of that come true see the hate between Biggie and Park the way it ended up did that affect Biggie? oh yeah he was affected by that crazy you understand when he was telling me the story about he didn't have no money to help Park with his legal trouble and everything like that and he had to sell his publish in the Puff for about $200,000 he also had just got a deal that he never got a chance to see for $62 million from Capitol at Atlantic Records you know with all the groups he had he didn't get a chance to even sign a document to say I agree to this and everything because he wrote everybody's music did they not? yeah yes he did he said Lil Kim used to write too but you know he's going to make sure everything right he wrote Lil C's down that whole album and then he sourced it out to Mace, Cameron probably some other rappers and everything like that how was Faith Evans? how was she? I wasn't around Faith only a couple of times you know I wasn't around her that much did you see the change in Puff from when you first met him to a few years later when he kind of became one of the top boys and that no doubt, no doubt there's money and fame change people a lot oh come on why wouldn't it you know what I'm saying to change your address change the car you drive the watch you have on you know what I'm saying it's very few people that don't change but it's how you change that's important more people change for the worst than actually the better I've seen that the people who was never used to anything and the time that they get it they've changed for the worse so Tupac was in prison he reached out to Biggie to see if he could bear them out and that's where they I don't think Tupac reached out per se but Jasmine Guy and somebody else there was another young lady that was collecting money for him trying to get the money for his release was Biggie too embarrassed to say that he had no money he didn't have it you know what I'm saying did they know that or not well he had something that was better than money but people wouldn't allow him to use his talent to do a fundraiser for Tupac because the news would have been like he doing a fundraiser for a rapist he understand what I'm saying you can understand that as well no matter if Tupac says he's innocent it's for the business side of things if he was guilty then it doesn't look business free like you say you're supporting a rapist so you can understand it on the business side but if that's your friend you've got to stay law you won't stay behind them 100% no doubt so you get shot, the beef is very heightened then Pax in Vegas when Tupac gets shot again what are you thinking well we got a call that night the night part got shot and they said yo daddy told us they rolled up on them and they got them they got them like that and I was like oh shit he said we'll tell you when we get back I never said this to nobody nobody gonna ever believe it and I was told this that it wasn't only a driver that killed the shot Tupac or if it was a driver who shot Tupac so you hear a lot of stories like I thought it was Dre I thought they was in the car but then I also thought because I was told by somebody who was there that somebody ran up on the car and shot Tupac and I never told nobody I told three or four people but I never let them release that to anybody or tell you can't tell nobody that you understand like that and then one of the person I told was a female shouldn't I told her the same day why is the whole thing being so messy why are you the you're shot in the middle of fucking Vegas but why is it be obviously you get your conspiracy theories because it is a bit, it's very strange for someone to get killed at that time in front of so many people but yet no one was ever convicted or not, is it Orlando Anderson and I think who's the guy is it Keefy D he seems full of it why would you sit in a podcast and admit shit that you've done like it just seems very messy I think that on Keefy D behalf is that he had officers that released that information and they wasn't supposed to release that information to nobody and they did it and because he was selling books and you got to realize this guy was one of the top drug dealers in one of the top drug dealers on the west coast you know what I'm saying he doing 100 keys a week or better you know what I'm saying so if he's doing all those type of you know he's selling all those type of drugs and then he gets to the point where as he go to jail he come out and he's not doing that well he used that method to sell his book now this cop already put that information out I'm going to go with it I know I didn't do it because he did he not sign something and the police station that he would keep him out well this is a Vegas case yeah this is California talking that stuff you understand what I'm saying California can't give me nothing to stop me from going to jail in Vegas in Vegas want me in Vegas have evidence against me I think all of it is just circumstances of hearsay when was it puffed ran in and said somebody needs to die he says park needs to die buggy needs to die well that's the night he ran but why show buggy needs to die yo I still cannot tell you to this day why he said bug needs to die I can only tell you what I think you understand I think that big was robbing I mean big was robbing puff like puff had taken from big he took his marketing which was legal he mean to have known how important it was he took his publishing he mean to have known how important it was he mean to have known how important it was taking those things upset big because big found out how important those things were him to move on because like I told you he got that 62 million dollar deal you know so now puff found out that big was writing all those things Ac y gallwch chi'n rhaid i ni yn gweithio adon ni, a gallu mor hwn ar ddi Gwyrföch, gallu gweithio adon nhw i'r gwaith. Mae'n gwybod i'r gweithio a dygon. Gallwch chi'n rhaid. Ac mae'n ddweud y cyfle, mae'n ddynnu ymwneud eich cyffredin ac mae'r cyflىf aer wedi cyflos â bwysig hwn ym 100%. Ond ddiddabwch, iffwrdd ei gweithio i ddod i gweithio lluniau ac mae'r rywbeth o ffawr, fi'ngylched i gyd-MC. ..en i ddweud o'n gweithio. Rwy'n meddwl adeilad i fynd, ..en chi fod wedi edrych yn ymddangos yma'r ffordd. Mae'n dweud! Mae'n gweithio. Mae'n gweithio, mae'n gweithio. Mae'n gweithio i ddweud hwnnw. Felly mae'n gweithio fyddion? Mae'r twerdwyr, Mae'r ddweud yma... Mae'n gweithio! Mae'n gweithio... Mae'n gweithio, mae'n gweithio. Mae'n dweud, mae'n dweud... Mae'n dweud, mae'n gweithio! O'r rai. A oes dyna iddyn nhw. Fy yna gwybwch am y gallu'r ysgrifennu yng Nghymru, yng Nghymru yng Nghymru? Felly mae'n ddechrau o'r afnysgfyr ychydigol yn ymddir. Felly yw'r ysgrifennu. Mae'n ddechrau ymddir. Mae'r ddweudio'r dyf yn ysgrifennu i gydigol. Ac mae'n dweudio'r ddweudio'r ddweudio'r ddweudio'r ddweudio. Mae'n ddweudio'r ddweudio'r ddweudio. I told them. Mace told them.  I'm not the only one that's noticed and privileged to this information. I'm the only one that's speaking on it and has spoke on it. Now people are coming out gradually, but when puffs set up an atmosphere for somebody to get hurt and they get hurt, don't you take some responsibility for that? Is that more tactics? He's not going to pull the trigger. He may not even pay someone to do so, but like releasing that song who shot you, that creates an atmosphere. Creating certain things and planting seeds and somebody else's mind to be number one, where two pack ends up getting killed, buggy ends up being killed. Who becomes number one? P did he? Puff dad he? Could that have been tactics for then to take off the people who were competition for him to take it all? Or is that about far fetched? Well, I'm trying to believe that he's not that bright. But anything's possible.  No, he's not.  Because somebody told that. Somebody told Puff, Puck got to die, Big got to die.  I'm not going to go to jail. You know, these people planned 25 years in advance. Had Puck and Big still been alive today. Come on, brother. You and I both know how strong they would have been. How heartbreaking is that to see two men at the height of their powers just still young kids? People would forget they're only in their 20s, what were they, 24, 26? Like two young boys, unbelievable talent, two packs, listen, I still listen to both albums, I still listen to both their albums to this day as their stuff is timeless. It's unbelievable for young kids to then be getting used against each other. That's how big they were because it did basically start a war in house. But it's sad to think that they've been played. It's sad to think that people have made them go against each other, make them fight each other. For who's gain?  But the crazy part of it is is that and I look back and I see that the people that were close to big and how they were like Judas after all he had did for them and put them in a position to be where they are. How it only took 30 pieces of silver to get them to be traitors against them. Does that upset you? It upsets me a lot. Tell the truth, come out. Let people know. I used to blame myself. I used to blame myself. I went through years blaming myself because I went to that party with them. Puff said, you ain't got to go.   And D-Max said, yo, we lock and load the gun. We lock and load together. I don't see nobody lock and load nothing. I went to Puff prior to telling those guys I went up there. Puff said at the top of the steps I'm looking up at Puff. I said, yo, Puff, I got some intel. He said, what's up, Gene? Kim come right on the side of him. She's in a white robe. Puff is in a white robe. His wife robe says B-8 because he had took it from Beverly Hills Hotel. So I said, yo, my man, I'm looking at myself. My man, I got some intel.  Yo, Gene, you ain't got to go. I'm the only one that got it with them. You know what I mean? I'm the only one that could distribute it if I need to. But you tell me I don't have to go? I felt that small. I go in, I call my man, Slick, Shay pick up the phone, Sean pick up the phone from the block. Because back in New York City we used to have pay phones. So I use Andre Hurrell number. If you go by his number on that day you'll see I call the 12th Street because that's a phone record. It's still there.  That would be as long as they got phone records they could go back and look at Andre Hurrell house number and see on March the 8th before March 9th. I called 112th Street and 8th Avenue pay phone. I said, yo, Slick, I spoke to certain people.  He said, I said, yo, Puff say I ain't got to go. Slick against it. He said, don't go there.  I said, I can't do them kids like that. I can't do these kids like that, man. He said, yo, man, listen here. All I'm saying is something happening to you. He's going to have somebody to answer to when he get back here. He said, yo, listen here. Slick told me always, you know, failure to prepare is preparing to fail. Don't nothing be the ambush. Failure to prepare is preparing to fail. Don't nothing be the ambush. That means keep your head on the swivel. See that night then? See when he's telling you not to be there? Could he have potentially been involved? Like I said, if you set up an atmosphere, you're just as much as wrong. It's crazy how we come out of party. We used to jump in the car. We gone. We waited. We waited. But see when I spoke to the FBI and I spoke to people, they let me to believe that there were more than one or two people that was trying to kill us out there that night. Those, those guys who wanted. See, I believe it was those guys who wanted to get back at big for that ambush over in Red Hook when they van got shot up.  So puff may have made a phone call to them.  Saying, yo listen here, man.  Big gonna be at the party. Y'all could talk to him then. He could have done that because Mace didn't come to the party either. But Mace knew about that because Mace told me about it.  The guys he played ball with, they were the crypts and stuff like that. I think they were those guys called the dog pound. Right. So they have told Mace, you good Mace, but puffing big ain't. So I know Mace told puff. Mace didn't tell big.  So I know what puff is gonna do. He's gonna make a phone call to those guys and say, yo man, listen here. I'm gonna exonerate myself.  You hear me? We going to this party, the party that I tried to talk about the going, the vibe party. Now, I blame myself for years as I said, until I heard the president of Motown, the former president of Motown, or vice president of Motown, Clark Kitt and Un Rivera, biggish partner, say these things. Un Rivera said, I had called Karen Hunter and I think Janet Jackamy. They was gonna meet big to the hotel before he went to London. Supposed to be going to London. Yo neck of the woods. They were supposed to be meeting him. Clark Kent said I was in Biggs hotel and I asked him, what are you doing tonight? He said, I'm going to this party that DRock his man and puff set me set up for me to go.      Do you understand what I'm saying? I used to blame myself. So when I heard Clark Kent say that, he told Bigg not to go.  Little seeds. He hadn't been around for a whole week.     God put me there. But I had the wrong principle. I had puff. So when we got to that light, instead of stopping at the light, as soon as I got in the car, Kenny, run the next three lights, run the next three lights, Kenny. We checked through the light. The killer was right there at the light. He had just walked up to me less than five minutes prior to killing the notorious Bigg.  He was right there at the light park. It wasn't no drive by. Don't listen to these people. It was no drive by. The guy was parked in the car. When Bigg stopped at the light, he pulled out the parking space, pow, pow, pow, pow, pow. Turned the corner. So you were told to drive through the light? I told I'd drive it to drive through the light. When I was telling Steve, Steve, right? I told Steve, I said, Steve said, you have law enforcement news. You're part of the military. I said, no, my job as being a New York State parole officer, we trained with a lot of agencies, different agencies. They gave courses and everything like that. This is how good God is. Two weeks prior to going to California, I took a class called interrogation and surveillance. In that class, we had to learn how to interrogate somebody. We had to learn how to do certain surveillance. We had to learn, and they taught us trick squares you can find off somebody following you. In that course, it said, take three lights, run three right. Make three rights, take three lights.  If you take three rights, where are you at? Right where you started. And if that motherfucker's right behind you. If that car's behind you, somebody's following you. If you run three lights and that person run those same three lights that you ran, somebody's following you. So I just, something when I got in the car, because I want to ride on the side of the car. Back then, I'm 265. Right now I'm 320. You know what I mean? So I want to ride on the side of the car with my gun out.  Yeah. I would have been the first one to have been shot. But everything you've said, Gene, even listening to your story, you talk about the college night.   Did you have a feeling? Are you connected to something where you feel that something's going to go wrong? Or do you always think that way?  And I don't always think that way. That's not my life.  If you have people with street knowledge and gangsters, chess told me, yo, they coming at y'all.  The dude from, it was hanging with Jodesy, yo, Wayne going to the party, bro.  You understand what I'm saying? It don't take a rocket scientist. You understand what I'm saying? To see something and know that something's going to happen. And it's a possibility. Why wasn't they more protected? Because Puff wouldn't pay for security. I told Kirk Burroughs, man, we need more security, bro.  And you got Paul as somebody for Big. When all them, they got Antara, they got other people. Come on, bro. See when Biggie dies, there's that in hands. Puff's stock with the rates he's got from Biggie's music. Oh, come on. It's over 10 million. It's over 10 million. Big got like 7 million out of 10 million albums. If you sell 10 million albums, right, that's about $200 million. $180 million, something like that. Because Michael Jackson thing as well, because I think Sony owed him over a billion in his rates, and he had the Beatles rates, I think he had Eminem's rates. Obviously he can get a conspiracy theories, but if he's gone, they get the rates back.  It remains 100 million, a billion. Ain't no, ain't no, ain't no. Man, Michael Jackson was, we know that dude was paid to murder him, no, allegedly. I got to say allegedly, but there's no way, man, that doctor don't know what he doing, and Michael Jackson just go up and just die like that, man. He, not only that, what about the Marvel thing? He had made the deal, he's making a deal with Marvel comic. That's the stuff that was going on with Michael Jackson.   But now, that's their, that's the mentality, that's what that game is about. I used to see Puff run through so many girls, but if he ain't had a dime, he wouldn't be able to do that. I used to see him run through dudes that he was smiling they face, and then after they girls. That's not an ace person.    Yeah, so you are there when Biggie gets shot, what happens then? Me and Tone jump in the car, and we try to chase the driver, but we couldn't get close enough to do anything. So I said, Tone, let's go back and set up, I said, Tone, we got to get back. So we can set up, when the pop cops come, they can take Big to the hospital or whatever like that. And when we get back, Puff was like, Kenny, you know where the hospital is? And Kenny said yes, and we drive Big to the hospital. Because you had them in your arms, is that correct? Yeah, that's when we got them to the hospital. When we got them to the hospital, it took us a long time to get there, man, I don't know. Shit, he took a half an hour to get to some place that was actually two blocks away. And Kenny's from California, so he'd never been asked about that one. Seen the sign that I think was two blocks away, and we went someplace else, or vice versa. It was a hospital, two blocks away, and we ended up going, you know, about a half an hour away from the scene. Was it still alive at that moment? Well, I don't know. The last thing I heard Big say was just do it. Kenny said, I'm going to get you to the hospital, Big. And Big said, just do it. And then I told people, don't let them go to sleep. Whatever you do, don't let them go to sleep. Keep them up. Don't let them go to sleep. When we got to the hospital, somebody ran into the hospital, they got a gurney. And we pulled them out. And when we pulled out the body out, that's when I seen his pants was saturated. It appeared to be urine. And I could smell the feces. And I just, when I grabbed them, and then I just dropped his leg.  And I was like, I just grabbed them up and we put them on the gurney. You know, I was like 400 pounds of dead weight, man. So put them up on the gurney. And then they rolled them in there and pawled it to me.  Excuse me. I said, yo, my brother's dead. And he said, oh, no, he just, it was shocked, Gene. It was shocked, bruh. You know, he was just shocked. He just been shocked. He ain't dead. I said, bruh, he dead.  And then started getting phone calls from everywhere I'm making phone calls. How do you go over that, Gene? Because you seem to have seen a lot of pain and death in your life as well. Like I said, I just kept myself busy. I had to raise three daughters. I never had much of nothing. Everything I got, I worked for. You know what I'm saying? And I don't mean nobody had to give me nothing. You know what I'm saying? But I wanted to have a different life. So at one time, I was putting it all into my work. I write poetry. I was out to help people. So I used my ability to help somebody change their life. So being a parole officer is not just yo piss in this cup or what time you going to be at home and all that. It has a lot to do with how could I help you change your life to change your family life so they could be proud of you and you could be proud of yourself. So I put all my energy in doing that. And what happened after Bagger get killed? How was life then? How was life when Bagger get killed after? Oh, it was terrible. You know, van to my car being vandalized. You know, people wouldn't run up on me. When you want to run up on. You know what I'm saying at that time?  You know what I'm saying?  So if you understand what I'm talking about. Of course.  Did you get blamed for that? Oh, because you did you get blamed for it because you were the security guard? Oh, yeah. Puff them tried to, you know, I was secure. I was Puff principle. Puff was my principle. But they tried to throw it off like I had it was my fault. I was I didn't shoot. I didn't do this and I didn't do that. And then the FBI told Puff itself. He said, you're alive because of Jean. Phil Carson told him himself. You're alive because of Jean. Because had you stopped at that light, that would have been you. Had you not run that light, that would have been you. That's what they thought. Because those were the fashion. I think those people was there to kill Puff. But they killed big instead. But those other guys from the dog pound, they wanted big also. So that's how it was saying that there was more than one, two people that was out trying to kill us. Plus Puff had that beef in Soul Train with the Muslim people too. So wherever it was coming from, I think that that was something professional that was done. Why do you think Puff star alive? Because the attention now after Big's death, they had no reason to come at him. They had no reason to come after that. The Kiffydee say that Puff paid him to kill to Puff? I was just saying that. Bro, I can't believe that only because of this. I've been around Kiffydee and Puff when they were gambling. I mean 40, 50, 60 thousand dollars in the pot or more. Or more. And Kiffydee lost.  Let me get 20 of that that you owe me. Because that's what somebody would say. And we probably wouldn't know what he was talking about. But not one time I've been around him that Kiffydee tried to get money from him. So Kiffydee and Puff were friends? Yeah, they was cool. But Kiffydee was there when two-pack get shot. That's what he said? But it does put a lot of question marks over. Puff dad, he's got question marks over, especially now so, but with the stories that are coming out, it seems like a very dark individual where it would do anything just to keep his own career on track. It would have been right in saying that. Yeah, I wouldn't disagree with that. I wouldn't disagree with that. It's a scary place to be though.  He wouldn't have cared if you got a bullet in the head. I know. Biggie got a bullet in the head. I know. And I don't know the guy, so I'm only saying from what I'm hearing, but something doesn't sit right with him. So who killed Biggie then? Because no one was ever convicted?  Big was a casualty of war and that he was given the okay. It's just how it happened. You know, me being an officer and being somebody who's been around that type of situation and those things, when we blew that light, that man could have shot right then and there as we was blowing the light. He could have shot big all right there. It seemed like he was given permission. You understand the weight, the time.  Yo, they blew the light. Damn. But big them right here. Or go ahead and shoot them.  Bap, bap, bap, bap, bap! Get it? The time that it happened, he was a spontaneous. Spontaneous would have been we blow the light, bap, bap, bap, bap, bap, bap, bap! Not we get across the street, we wait for them and then we see the shots go out. Why didn't the car follow? I don't know. I don't know. There were three girls on the sidewalk and they found out they were talking to those three girls. So what happens with your life after that then? How was the relationship with Puff? I stopped, we stopped dealing with each other for a minute. And then about a year later, I seen him up at the Super Bowl or whatever. He said, yo, Wolf. I said, yo, Gene, come here. I said, what's up, man? He said, yo, come on the back. They were in the back of Puff. He had justice too in Atlanta. He said, yo, Puff, put Gene back to work. Puff said, yo, Gene, you want to come back to work? I said, I don't care. What's up? He said, sit me in my office on Monday. I came to his office on Monday. And I went back to work for him. What sort of stuff were you doing then?  Babysitting did that, making sure he, like right now he's strung out on pills. So just making sure he's good. I only had him more sometime on Friday, but Saturday and Sunday was my day, but sometime I have a Friday, Saturday and Sunday. What sort of stuff would you do? Just to regular. He'd go on to meetings, MTV shows, because now he's the star. You know, he's the man.  Yeah, I seen the change. I think it had a lot to do with the drugs too. Now he's popping pills. Puff was never no smoker, no nothing like that, but now he's popping pills.   Well, listen here, man. I'm not the type of dude.  I'm not going to be in a room with another man, two women, or a thousand women. I'm not going to do that. That's not me. I'm not ashamed of anything. That's just how I do my thing. So only time that I could see something like that is the places we used to go, those Turkish baths. I used to go in there and it would be number men in there. I'd be like, yo, I go to the door with them and then next day I turn back around and go out. And number bunch of naked men in there.  So whatever he used to do in those days, that's what he did.  But again, it's 2024. I don't know what's happening. They're going to be marching on you English. Yeah, but do you know what I'm saying?  Yeah, that was after me. Yeah, but for me, that's just... That's not right. Men are protectors. You should be protecting women.   That's the range. That's your woman and all that. That's crazy. That's the range thinking for me.  Oh, that's possible.  It just seems all strange. I don't know, man. See that's been going on for a long time. He gets it from Russell Simmons, and then Ms. Andrea O'Rail, they teach him that. Puff wasn't that type of dude. What would he learn that from? You understand what I'm saying? So now, you know, the student has became a teacher. What do you think they'll come? We'll be with them before these rape allegations and... But what they would do is is that they're going to try to... That's why they want to know the names of the people because the DA in them is not filing anything against them.  That means the state takes on those problems.  You have the women that's doing it and the lawyers.  He's not be bringing up on criminal charges. Those charges are basically, you know, for judicial reasons.  So until the state takes one of those charges and say, yo, yo, he did this and he did that, he's going to pay his way out of it. Do you think there became a time where he felt untouchable? Oh, yeah, he knew he was untouchable. He felt like he was untouchable. You can see that. What about jail or did you ever meet her? Oh, yeah. Was that the night that... Remember the night that there was a shout out in the night club? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. What was jail or like? I should call her Miss Lopez. I think that she was just remarkable.  You know what I'm saying? She represented you well. Now I don't know how she is now, but you know, she represented tough well. You know what I'm saying? He ain't got to worry about nobody trying to come at her a certain kind of way. She had been in the business long enough to know. She was well respected. She could get us in places, man. We was down on the field at the NFL. We was down on the field with the Miami Hurricanes, all that stuff like that. You know, she was the ball. You know what I mean like that?  Was there much of violence from Puffy with his exes and girlfriends back then that you see much of domestic abuse? Only time I've seen him was with Kim. You know what I mean? Nobody else. A lot of people around him as well. A lot of people seem to die. Why do you think that is? Well, the thing about it is this is that I think that how he lives his life and how he cares about people put them in precarious situations that they can lose their life if they're not careful. And I really don't believe that Kim had pneumonia just like the rest of us because I was aware prior to her going to California, her lifestyle and the things that she did with Puffy. And when you do certain things, you put your life in danger. But that's all that stuff? You know, drugs, drinking in drugs and stuff like that.  You know what I'm saying? And it wasn't just smoking weed. You know what I mean? So when you put yourself in that type of situation, and you round somebody, it's like Lin bias. Do you know who Lin bias is?  Probably would have been as good as Larry Bird, maybe as good as Jordan. We had been known to him. Lin bias was using cocaine prior to the night he became the number one draft pick for Boston Celtics. Just picture this. We knew the guy who used to play on Maryland team. He was from Tennessee. He used to tell us he had to piss for the whole team down there.  He had to piss for the whole team down there. Lin bias is used to a certain kind of cocaine, right? Because he was getting that type of money. Now he's about to get NBA money. He step up his game and get a whole different type of cocaine, like a better type of cocaine. And what happened? What happened to him? He dies from it. When you are in certain positions, you understand? You cannot.  Okay, cool. But somebody who's bodyguard a rocker fella, they're going to get twice as much as I get. You understand what I'm saying? So that money is different. So when you got that different money, you get those different type of drugs. Michael Jackson, Whitney Hurston, you know. And what happened? What happens then after you leave puff? How was life then? Oh, you know like I had things going on. I had Kay Slay. I was bodyguard Scott Storch. I went to bodyguard Scott Storch. I was bodyguard Kay Slay. How was life then? 50 was dealing with black hands. And 50 came over to my house when they were setting him up. He knew they was going to set him up and try to kill him. And I tried to give him a bulletproof vest.  So I never spoke to him. I spoke to him again with Scott Storch when he was doing the candy shop. That's on the candy shop. And he set me down. We was in a talker. And he was like, I was trying to say that I would, because I would have rolled with 50. You understand what I'm saying? And he knew that. But because of his introduction to by Chaz Wimms, who he had a problem with, he had a problem with. Then he told me. Yo, I couldn't trust anybody. I had to deal with the people that I was dealing with who came in the game with me. And everybody else, I had to let go. I couldn't help with them. And that's understandable.  I was telling them, I'm my own man. I've always been my own man. And he was like, yeah, I know Gene, but I had to do what I had to do for me. I laid 50. He seemed a decent guy. His book was unbelievable. For what he's came from, to what he's overcome, to what he's done now, he always takes a shot at Puff. Why? I think because Puff was robbing them on that publishing thing. 50 was doing a lot of writing for a lot of people back then before he was even known like that. He was writing music. A lot of these cats have written a lot of songs for people and never will get the publishing because they put their publishing in somebody else's name. Here go 10,000. I write that. That song will be coming here. My name is on the publisher. You're with 50 Tell a Story? His album sold 10 million, right? He told the producer, keep the 50,000. I'm going to give you one point. That one point would have got to do $1 million. And they rejected that? Huh? They rejected that? Yeah. Yeah, I heard that. That's what it's all about, is points, the more points, the more money. Yeah. What's your whole run-down on it? Gene, what's your whole run-down on the big A2-pack scenario, Puff Diary scenario? What's the whole run-down of why you think they all died who was involved? Well, I know the atmosphere was set up for being to die in California. You cannot make me believe that. You know that Tupac had just died six months, six months before big dad. You're going to plan for him to be out in California to promote anything. You're only getting 20% of yourselves from out there anyway. And you could do radio to the DJs over the radio, and they understand that. Your circumstance and situation. And then big, if you would have told him to run because your life depended on him, he could not have run because he had broken both of the fibrile bones in his thighs from the car accident. So he was in a wheelchair most of the time. So because of the Soul Train Awards show, you're going to send your man to California. I did have him out there still for a month or two knowing that he got a beef with some people out here that are gang members. He got his own beef out here. So my take on big, he was put in a position to be somewhere to be handled. But then Puff had hurt some people and they was trying to handle him and Big took that alpha puff. If you get what I'm saying. To clear his name and put him. Take him, leave me. What's your biggest regret in life, Gene? My biggest regret in life?   And even though I provided for my kids more than I ever was, I could have spent more time with them. Why were you so invested into that life? Because I think that I grew up always wanting to beat up the bully. What's your opinion on Puff now? Well, my opinion would be that some way, somehow, God evens up the playing field.   Do you believe in karma? That's what I'm talking about. What's your plans for the future, brother? Where do you go forward with it all? Well, I wrote my first book and people, did you get a chance to read it? Yeah, that's why you're on. I know we've missed out a lot of stuff as well, but I loved that. You said it ain't real. That's why I've got you on, because I read your book, man, I loved that. I wrote the second one to tell you up, because it's going to put you right in there. You're going to know what happened that night, what all went down. You're going to know what went down with the 50 cent.  The shine shit, the behind the scene, what happened with him and shine and everything. I'm going to tell you all that in the second book. The Fat Joe, our relationship, Kay Slay, Chaz Wimms, the guy who robbed 160 banks. I tell stories about Pun, a big L, just Harlem. I put you right there. The editor told me, the guy who was editing the book, shout out to Floyd. You know what I'm saying, Larry Floyd? He was like, yo, Jane, this is better than the second book. The second book is better than the first book. People going to love your audience are going to love this. I start writing the third. I'm going to do a book, a poetry and recipes. I'm going to put poetry and recipes together, do that. Then I'm just going to go back and just chill and I'm done. I've had a life that most people wouldn't believe the circumstances and the situations I came out of, that I fought through them and I believed that because of grace it held me. The grace of God kept me going. No matter what. You understand, I used that power and the grace did just keep me through. So, that's why I'm mad mad. I just want to live off the rest of my life and just be happy. See the cockroach with Beggy, what happened? Oh, Lil Sees was driving and it was coming off a lot. It was slippery and wet outside and he crashed it and Beg almost went through the front window. See if Beggy and Tupac got together and sorted their differences. Do you think that would have helped? A lot of things. Oh, that would help. That would have helped a lot of things and it would have hurt a lot of things because the industry could not move the way it wanted to move with Tupac being involved. See, you know what? Every night, had put in some people's heads we need to get our own publishing company.  And they were going to fight for that. And there's no way that the industry out there took all those companies and broke up, was going to allow these minority brothers, these black guys to get their own publishing company and own their rights to their own rap music. What's going to happen? Do you think that's why the media brought so much attention to it? Because they know they would eventually have got killed if they keep stirring the pot? Yep, no doubt. How do you feel telling your story again? Does it bring back a lot of emotion? It brings back a lot of emotion sometimes but I don't hurt like I used to hurt. I can't stop the feeling sometimes. You know what I'm saying? When I talk about Begnum about the part when Big went to that party when everybody was telling him not to because I think that had he went to London like he was playing on they wouldn't have got him that day. What did Becky's mum think of her? Oh, my man. She cried like a baby. She held my hand and she told me that I was just too raw just telling her everything and she had one time she said I don't want to hear no more. So that was it. For anybody that's watching brother that's maybe in a life of struggle just now what advice would you have for them? Well, even when you don't have you can't get just keep working towards it and believing and as long as you're putting into work and working towards something you understand?  It's nothing too big or too little you got to just keep on going for it until you can get where you need or you want to be at you know what problem is is that you know they want the car before they can ride the bike you know what I'm saying? You may have to ride a bike for a while before you can get the car Just a couple of more questions brother who's the best person you've worked with? The best person as far as work Just to feel good and it's just a good job and you like the person they feel genuine, loyal I hate to say I hate to say but I think it was Ms Lopez Jennifer Lopez and the reason I said that because she wasn't my principal but I wanted to help her in so many different ways on so many different times and I didn't but it was good having her around What do you think the thing that will come will be buffed at it? That he'll never be on the pedestal that he was was and that his name won't go down in history and his legacy will be tornished by his arrogance and his narcissism Do you think that will break him more than anything? It will break him, yeah not being able to be at the awards show not being able to be on on the front street like that yeah, that will break him more than ever he can't be a Russell Simmons and go over the valley and just chill out and not be seen not at all When did your just before we finish up, but when did your relationships change with him? Did you get any hate towards him or like anger just if you seen each other what would happen? We've seen each other What happened?


As we explained in another episode, one of the hallmarks of aging is changes in the epigenetic program. That is, the molecular features of DNA that affect which genes get expressed. Because the epigenome is dynamic by its very nature, it might be possible to undo these changes, delaying or even reversing the damage caused by aging. This is the first in a series of videos we're making about the different kinds of epigenetic features, how they change during aging and how scientists hope to reverse those changes. Today's topic is chromatin remodeling. Welcome to X10, your one-stop YouTube show for all things life extension. Learn the science, keep up with new research and live longer and healthier. To get notified about new videos from X10, click on subscribe and don't forget to ding the little bell icon. One of the epigenetic features is how DNA is packaged into a structure known as chromatin. An easy way to understand it is to think about books. Depending on which book you have in mind, the text would stretch for somewhere between several hundred meters and a couple of kilometers if it were printed in a single straight line. That would be pretty inconvenient and impractical, so we invented things like books and scrolls. And then we arranged the books on bookshelves, which we collect into libraries, storing vast amounts of text and knowledge in a pretty compact form. In the same way, the DNA inside your cells is wrapped around proteins known as histones to make a structure known as a nucleosome. Think of it as a page in a book. Nucleosomes are folded into more complex structures which are wound together to make chromatin. There are still higher levels of organization, such as chromatin loops and chromosome territories, but we're going to stick with chromatin for now. There are basically two types of chromatin. Heterochromatin is more tightly packed, making genes relatively inaccessible while you chromatin is looser so genes are easier to reach. It's a bit like the difference between a book being open on a library table or stored somewhere on a shelf. You can read the book either way, but it takes more effort if you have to find it, take it down, and flip to the right chapter. So, the distribution of u-chromatin and heterochromatin influences which of your genes are switched on and which are inactive. The problem is that this pattern changes as we age. The loss of heterochromatin model of aging was proposed in the late 1990s. The idea is that the heterochromatin pattern degrades during aging, so genes that should be silent become active and wreak havoc. We've since discovered that the picture is a bit more complicated. Heterochromatin doesn't just disappear as we age. It also shows up in new places, so-called senescence associated heterochromatin foci. This leads to instability and means that some genes get switched off when they should be switched on. To go back to our analogy, the library is becoming difficult to use or even getting damaged because it hasn't been maintained. Books that should be easily accessible, maybe dictionaries, for example, have been packed up and put away, and books that should be harder to reach, such as first editions or rare manuscripts, are scattered open on tables. Lots of different factors affect chromatin structure, and one of the things they respond to is DNA damage. If chromatin remodeling factors move to sites where DNA is damaged, but then don't always return to their original location, it might partly explain why the heterochromatin pattern changes with age. In 2009, researchers discovered a link between chromatin remodeling and Hutchison-Gilford-Progeria syndrome. It turns out that the gene mutated in HGPS is involved in organizing the nucleosome. The protein it encodes interacts with other proteins that regulate chromatin, and the mutation somehow causes these other proteins to get broken down. This results in misregulation of the chromatin, leading to changes in its structure and causing premature aging. Another premature aging disorder, Werner syndrome, also seems to be linked to changes in chromatin. A 2015 study found that the Werner protein associates with several proteins that control and modify chromatin. The prematurely aged cells had lower heterochromatin levels and other epigenetic changes. The researchers also confirmed that the Werner protein is lower in normally aged cells, suggesting that the same changes might occur during normal aging. If we could reverse these changes, that is, tidy up the library, or find a way to prevent them, we might be able to delay or even undo some of the damage caused by aging. Experiments with a group of genes called the Yamanaka factors hold out hope that this might be possible, but that's the subject of another video. To get notified about that and other X10 videos, subscribe to our channel and don't forget to click the little bell icon. Thanks for watching, and if you enjoyed this, then please share it with your friends and click the like button below. And finally, a big thank you to all of the Lifespan Heroes, whose crowdfunding support makes this show possible. If you'd like to support X10 and its parent organization, lifespan.io, head over to lifespan.io slash hero and make a pledge.