Party Party's not here. Party here. Party Stevens Rottz, Barry, Steinhubble. I only call people that I saw come in, because some people come dragging in late. We were working on welded connections. We had analyzed quite a few of them. Now then we're going to design one. We've got A-36 steel plates. This one is similar to the problem we had in example 712. Here's what it looked like. It had wells on the sides only. Look on page 447, you'll find it. It had an axial load P on a plate welded to a gusset plate.  How long must a set of quarter-inch fillet wells be if you're going to use the appropriate rod for A-36 steel? The A-70 rod has a tensile strength equal to the hog. What's the tensile strength of an A-70 rod? The hog? I'm sorry. A molecule? No, not a molecule. This is not a chemistry class. L-A-H-A-U-G. Oh, I guess you didn't even recognize that. Well, I'll tell you what, I can do this probably. Lucas, how's that sound? Okay, and I'm just Lee. Okay, that'll work. How much tensile stress does an A-70 rod have? Yes, A-70XX actually. I see why you were delaying the inevitable. 50, very good. Add a little to that, though. How much? You're going a little higher than that. All right, A-70 KSA. That's right. That's why they gave it that name. Okay, you say, what are you picking on me for? I wasn't talking. It was simple, but there those girls say, yeah, well, but if you can't pick on girls, it's not politically correct. So people with names you can't pronounce, they're next on the list. So they're both parts are three-eighths of an inch thick. So whether it tears through the gusset or through the plate, I don't know. Don't care. Yes, sir. I don't know. I don't remember. Think you can look that up? 18 or 14? No, I don't think there's any of those. It signifies what? No, this pretty well tells us the alloy right here. The coating raises, but we don't care. That's how come nobody knows. That's how come you don't know. Yeah, well, no, they don't want to be curious in here. Oh, no, no. It gets you in trouble. All right, so now this one I know nobody's going to get. Let me pick somebody at random here. A car? Yeah, you notice that, huh? All right. So the shear strength per weld is 1.392 times dead. Now, if you say, well, I don't remember where that came from, it came from page 450, where we decided our life might be easy, made easy. We'd find out if we were going to use E70 rods, because they're the most common rods that we use for A992 and A3060 or both, go ahead and multiply the throat size of a 1.16 inch leg size weld times 1 inch and just see how strong a 1.16 inch weld was. And then if we happen to have a 3.16 well, we would just take the strength of a 1.16 inch weld. Since we have three of them, we just multiply it times three to get the strength per inch. So in our case, we have a 4.16 inch weld. So that's a good number to hang on to write it somewhere in your user's manual or your LRFD manual. 1.392 times four gives us 5.568 kips per inch of strength for one inch of weld. And we of course got a whole lot of load to hold up. We've got nine dead and 18 live. It comes from the equation on page 7.34a, page 450. In the sheer yield strength of the base metal, we had the same idea. It wasn't quite as nifty, because in this case, assuming you're going to use an E70 rod, all we didn't know was the size of the weld, and you're probably either going to pick that or saw for it. On the base strength in yield and rupture for the base plate, we don't know what plates you're going to use, as well as we don't know how thick the plate is. So it becomes a little less useful, but still worthwhile. It's going to be 6 tenths. In our case, it's a 36 steel, so the tension, tension yield is 36. That makes it sheer yield. And the plate is three-eighths of an inch thick, both of them, so I don't care which one you're talking about. That's the base metal. That one's going to be 8.1 kips per inch. And it really doesn't matter if we were talking about putting how strong these things are down around each one of these holes where we weld things or where we bolt things down. You can't have more strength on any one inch of this weld than the weakest thing. So if you say, well, once this weld gets on back to the end of the plate back there, it'll have 1.5 times the strength, because it's 90 degrees with respect to these wells. I'm saying I don't care. If you have a strength on this inch of base plate and a strength on this inch of base plate and a strength on this inch of weld, you must take the lowest of those in that weld. So the strength due to yielding along the base metal was a three-eighths inch plate, 8.1 kips per inch. And the strength with the shear rupture, you're going to be able to up that number to 58 for a 36-deal, but you're not going to be able to use as high a fee value. The fee value on this one, if you remember, was 1. So that drops the 0.6 down to 0.45 even though you raised the 36 up to 58. Now if you say, well, this one always seems to control when we just do it, well, you're going to have some metals that that doesn't happen. It's going to be that this number is pretty close to this number. And then when you apply the fee factors to them, then you'll find out this one takes over. So you just have to check them both. So so far we have 5.568 kips per inch due to the weld, 8.1 kips per inch due to yielding the base metal, and 9.7 due to rupturing the base metal. So we're going to have to take the lowest of those three. Then 39.6 kips, somebody calculated how much load we were going to have to have on that thing when I wasn't looking. There it is, 1.2 dead of 9 plus 1.6 live of 18, 39.6 kips. We have the strength of our weld is controlled by the 5.568. And so I can tell you how long the weld has to be 39.6 kips divided by kips per inch. This is assuming there's no weld on the end. Did he tell us that? Yeah, he did. If you remember the original problem had weld on the sides only. So he's not in that dilemma.  Well, how much piece did you get on these? One, no. You got one, one, one, if you had end welds and you were willing to live with one, one, one. But if you wanted to, you could take this one times one and a half, but then these had to be cut down by how much? 15 percent down. That was a 0.85. That's correct. Take your choice and you got the larger of the two, which is an unusual gift, but true. That doesn't apply to us. We don't have an end weld. So you need 7.11 inches. They're probably going to round it up to seven and a half, maybe eight inches, four inches on each side. No matter what they do, when they only put four inches down this length, somebody's going to have to go back and check this plate because this thing here may have a U of zero. Are U of 0.75? Are there several U's, values in there depending on how long is the weld and how far are they apart? If to scale this thing is drawn like this, there's your four inches and there's your four inches. You're not going to get much load out of that. That load's going to have too hard of a time getting through those little four inch welds. Did he tell us what that distance was? I don't remember. He may have, but it still has to be checked. Yes, ASD. No, thank you. Practical design of welded connections. I'm sorry. I missed the very end of it. This one. Okay, we got the 7.11. He was going to use eight. I was thinking that you could going to have to have four inches on each side. I was thinking that he could use, well he really can't, can he? Three and a half on each side, three and a half, three and a half. That's only seven, so that wouldn't work. So round it up to the nearest inch. That's eight inches total. Four inches on each side. All right, practical design requires a consideration of things like you already knew this, minimum, maximum weld sizes, short lengths, long lengths, the whole nine yards. We already covered that and we discussed it by looking at the AISC, the LRFD, the specs. They were listed in J22B. They're on this page, in our notes, they're on that page in the text. A quick summary. They can't be too small. Nebel, Ibel. You're right next. The other guy I can't pronounce his name. Okay. And you both got the name Taylor. What am I going to do about that? Okay. Nebel was wise the minimum size of restriction. Do you happen to remember? I mean, okay, well it's not unusual. This stuff goes pretty fast. Graham, you remember? Graham here? Graham, you remember? You'll remember something. Say the word heat. Very good, heat. That's right. Clark, where's Clark? What kind of heat? What's wrong with heat with little bitty wells? Did little bitty wells get hot when they lay them down in the fillet down in the corner there? Yes, they do. That's good. Wells get hot. Can too. There's can too. Berry, never mind. Brown, picked on berry. Brown, broon, barn, broon.  Didn't we discuss that? You could, and if you're willing to do that, then this probably won't matter. And then you're going to let the whole thing cool off nice and slow. But that's not cheap. So there's a minimum size and the specs let you get away with it if you want to do it, but then you've got to preheat the metal. Maximum size.  At a quarter inch, you've got to leave me some corner.  They don't think you'll just burn a corner off out of carelessness that you probably can develop that well successfully. Minimum length, it couldn't be too small. Maximum length, it couldn't be too large on end loaded wells. Minimum length, by that I mean too short. Here was the factor that you had to go by if you were going to have an end loaded weld. Here's an end loaded weld. I have that I'm talking about. Here's the load, the weld, and it's loaded on the ends. If you have an end loaded weld, it takes a while for these loads to get out way on down here. If this is a hundred inches down here, you've got to have a whole bunch of stretch in this well before the member can deform to get load on down the road here. So they will put limitations on how long they can be. Past 300 times the well size, forget it. You can put all you want down there. You're not getting any more 180 times the well size. Discusses end returns. A lot of times it's just to make sure that the weld has an appropriate size all the way down to the end. You can count that in some cases. Cost. Here is a quarter inch weld, for example, and somebody needed twice the throat. And so rather than making this a quarter, they made it a half inch weld. In changing it from a quarter to a half inch weld, they multiplied the volume times one, two, three, cost them four times the cost. It's a direct cost of the volume laid down in the groove there. Cost them four times the volume or the cost as you got out of added strength. It's twice as strong, four times as much money. Another example. Got a half by four 836 plate tension member. Got six dead 18 live. Going to be attached to a three eighths. Okay, right off the bat. Are these both 836? Yeah. This is the one that'll tear. So when we're calculating the base metal shear, it's going to shear right along the edge of the weld probably either all the way around or if it's just got welds on the sides next to that. Wants to design a welded connection. Base metal, say 36, E70 rods. Somebody at random here, but I can't find him. Got so much for the word random, huh? Taylor. Taylor. What does this right here mean? Last name. The other, the other Taylor. I'm sorry. Your last name isn't Taylor. Your first name been Taylor? Your dad's name been Taylor. Your mom's name is Taylor. Yeah. Okay, well, that's too bad. I thought you, but oh, I bet I know what I was looking when I was looking at the other guy's name. Somebody next to him had the name Taylor. Okay, you. Yeah, you. What does this right here mean? Good. It has 10 strength, 70 KSI. That's correct. There, if that's true, then what is the shear strength? Because this thing is, does fail in shear. Well, no, because steel is usually weaker in shear than tension. Remember the number by how much? You need to see if your name was Smith, you wouldn't be having these problems. I didn't say everyone tell anyone having the problem. Vickers? Where's Vickers? Taborga? Tidwell? Look at this. You're the first out of three people. Even Mitch, you're here. Do you remember, I don't remember the question. Yeah, 0.6. Very good. Look at that. She got the question and the answer. That's right. Sixth tense is strong. All right. Minimum size. Why are they going to use the minimum size? Davila. They're going to use the minimum size. I'm sorry. Well, it is a place to start. That's not fair. KSI, what other reason would there be to start with a minimum size weld? It's cheaper. That's right, because it's a smaller weld. We just notice if you double the size of the weld, you double its strength, but you four times its price. So the guy says, well, why don't we make them as small as we can? Can't make them any smaller than the minimum or you'll suck all the heat out of it and it'll crack. Or you'll have to preheat the plate. Yeah, yeah, I know. So he's going to start with a minimum. Now what is the downside of making this weld a minimum size? Bowman? Don't know. Not only either, but I'm going to ask that I get an answer. Forester? Forester not here? Gamble? Gamble? How to do a much longer weld, which makes the connection much longer. Now if it makes it too much longer, well, then it just won't be reasonable because you spin up all your money and making this plate longer. So we're going to have to hit a happy medium of some kind. We'll start off trying a minimum size weld. Going to use these 70 rods. The design strength is 1.392 times some magic number of sixteenths of inch you're willing to purchase. You decided to purchase three of them sixteenths. What's going on here? Ooh, that's a mistake. Oh yeah, it says error right there, doesn't it? It's 1.392 times three. I'm not sure if this is still in your book.  May have the same addition number. 4.176 kips per inch. Shear strength of the base metal is for the thinner plate, 0.6 f of yt, 0.6 yield of 836, thickness of the plate 3 eighths, 8.1. This guy's controlling so far. The shear rupture strength is 0.45 times the change in the 0.6 to a lower number because this had a 1 in it for a fee, this one had a 0.75 in it for a fee, this one had a 36 for yield, this one had a rupture of 58 times 3 eighths. So these are the same numbers we saw before because they were still 3 eighths inch plates. This is going to control and it usually does, they usually have the if they if the well doesn't control there's not much reason to make the well that big because you're not getting your money's worth out of it, you might as well make it smaller if you can. So we're going to go on the 4.176 and say the well strength governs factor load 1 2 dead 1 6 live 36 required length 8.62 minimum length I don't think it's that's going to control you think that's four times three sixteenths can't be any less than three quarters of an inch that very seldom controls and that is less than ours ours going to be one on each side 4.31 oh I've got a couple errors here and so we've not violated the minimum length we can make them 4.31 on each side four and a half inch long for total length of nine inches for this type of connection who's he says side wells must be at least as long as the transverse distance between them that was because if you have something that looks like that this weld here and this weld here if these weld links are shorter than the distance between them he doesn't even give you a you you're lucky to get a zero and so you get no strength at all and so since they're at least as long as this width is he says we can work with that that may take quite a toll on the strength of this plate so you'll have to check the plate he hadn't checked the plate at all as of yet we got to check all kinds of goodies on it so far as well as concerned three sixteenths fill it well these 70 rods total length of the four and a half inches on each side has shown somewhere uh volume proportional cost of the weld true if you use a three sixteenths inch weld to carry a hundred kips of factored load as your 1.392 dead there's 1.392 kips of print for every sixteenths of inch of weld for a three sixteenths weld give you this load we already figured that out so the length of the weld necessary hundred kips over that if you use a three quarter inch weld uh using a 70 rods to carry a hundred kips it'll have to be 24 inches long volume of the weld base times height times the half times length 0.421 cubic inches that sure isn't a lot of cubic inches is it and using a four sixteenths weld to do the same thing you'd have a 1.392 dead four sixteenths instead of having uh 4.1 you get 5.568 now then the weld length can be shorter it's only 17.96 inches long base times height times a half that's the end area times the length 0.561 cubic inches you just caused an increase in the volume of weld 33 added volume to pick up the same load and i don't know why somebody didn't figure out how much more it cost well i guess it cost 30 cost 33 percent more didn't it oh it cost 33 percent more and you didn't get any added load capacity at all still got a hundred kips of load capacity that's how come we like little welts you're buying you're buying i'm not sure it's six because if you just took the difference in these two there's probably one on each side and so there'd be three inches shorter connection that's correct now once the connection gets to be uh 87 inches long well then we got problems with little wells we're gonna have to step it up weld symbols just so you know what they look like on the plans this little well looking thing is near to me and therefore it says weld on the near side want to use a quarter inch well six inches long this would say on the other side so if you were going to weld back here then you would point to this line and you would say welded on the other side you're going to weld it on both sides all the way around and you would show the little weld on both sides and give the links here i want to do all that you just say i want that size well that means all the way around if you're not going to use the normal rod that they're expecting then you'll put what rods you want them to use you can put all kinds of little things in that tail and that means you're going to do it in the field this probably means you're going to do it in the shop and they have thousands more to tell you everything got another example one eighth inch thick eight inch wide quite a wide plate of a 36 steel uses a tension member to be connected to a three eighth inch gusset plate that's that thick that's that thick gusset plate controls tearing of the base material as shown next page length oops can't exceed eight inches okay that's probably going to influence how small a weld we can put on it as far as that goes we'll probably just go ahead and solve for the size of the well since he's going to give us the length all welding must be done on the close side the near side can't weld that little back piece design a well to get the full capacity of the member well i don't know to tell you the truth yeah yeah yeah uh-huh so if i said well it's no longer max and so i shorten that down to six then this would be six and that'd be six and this would be longer than the distance between them you can do that you just get no strength out of it u is zero so you say well why do it obviously you wouldn't do it now this guy i don't know what the use of one here you know i don't know if he's going to be a one here unless you put a weld across the end of this thing maybe that's what he plans on doing if he does then from somewhere down in here he told me that and i stuck you as one up there design strength got to be based on gross section yield going to be based on net section rupture on gross section yield we got to go back to page eight in the book nine tenths f sy area gross uh feed point nine eight thirty six deal half inch thick eight inches wide 129 kips no reason to make a weld any stronger than that number so far how strong is it based on its effective area says if the wells are going along the sides only we got to go get you then there's you know some question about what you would be however if there's also a weld on the end then area effective is area gross because you didn't lose this little piece of metal on the end he says and let's assume the ladder okay so we got a weld on the end you as one you could also be one depending on how long the wells were if the wells were long enough this eight inch would be okay if he didn't have the weld on the end so far uh f sub u instead of f sub y and a point seven five instead of a point nine gross area point seven five fifty eight for a thirty six steel half inch thick eight inch wide hundred seventy four kips could care less still not going to design my well to carry any more than this incidentally when I designed my wells somebody has already factored the load so I want my I want my wells also factored when I do the design in other words if you've got well numbers running around loose where they say r sub nominal is equal to so many kips per inch I don't want to be I don't want you to be using that I want you to go ahead and have a fee times r sub n per inch because you've already got the fee in here if you want to take the fee out of this calculation then uh then you can design the wells based on their nominal strength but it has to match up so we're going to go for 129 kips with e 70 rods table j24 this page tells you the minimum size is three sixteenths however he says because of the length restraint go ahead and try a slightly larger well quarter inch well okay uh the design strength the factored strength that's got the fee in it already you're going to try a quarter inch well four sixteenths five point five sixty eight checking the base metal shear no new numbers here because there's still three eighths of a thirty six steel eight one and nine point seven the weld controls there's both longitudinal transverse wells are going to be used we'll know how long the longitudinal wells are these are these length wells says let's try both of those options first assume the same strength a hundred percent a hundred percent a hundred percent for everybody in sight well eight inches of this strength weld would take out eight times that number and leave us with some load to be carried by the side wells total length of the well required was 23 point 28 taking eight inches out of the total of 23 that we need leaves us with about eight inches on each side so probably going to be using eight eight eight if we just count a hundred percent hundred percent a hundred percent for the second option you're going to get only point 85 of the five point five but you're going to get a hundred and fifty percent of the five point five on the ends so hundred and fifty five point five gives you eight k s kips per inch on the ends you need a hundred and twenty six kips minus you're going to give me eight point three five per inch on the ends so the difference is sixty seven sixty two point seven for the two sides that's left for the sides and the required length of the longitudinal wells total load divided by yeah that's right so there's the four point four seven half of the load goes on one side half of the load goes on the other side here's the strength of each side per inch six point six three inches now I don't know we've got a problem here uh because all of a sudden now we don't have this thing here we've got this and this is only six I mean that's nicer I'd rather have seven inches I'm not gonna I'm not gonna ask that welder to do a six point six three inch weld he'll stick a rod up my nose seven inches this is eight is that gonna cause some eyebrows to be right raised no that's correct why not because you have transverse weld I mean no question we've been so busy making sure that this distance across here wasn't shorter than these wells because then without that there we had a u of zero but as long as we had this across the end all these little people can get out these doors and these can get out these doors very gracefully there's nobody running over like crazy like if there's no weld on the end all trying to get out the side doors and bunching up and causing a u to be less than one so that's okay still got all the old friends to calculate block shear in the thinner plate we'll bother that same old same old add a block shear strength with an upper limit of design strength turned out to be bigger than our gross section yield on the plate itself and our wells were bigger higher strength than that so we're good to go loud stress design a you would if the wells were a higher strength you would pay a little more for the higher strength rod you have to make sure you keep track of who's got one and where they're at make sure they're putting them on the right connection probably the guy's going to say look unless you're going to use those different rods on the third floor and above I don't want them just over in the ballroom and over in the saw and saw because I don't know my guys will be that careful no no block shear turned out to be a number higher than the gross section yield block shear once you got it all said and done 287 and then times fee still is 216 this was our gross section yield that's the limit there's not much you can do with that that's just flat based on the yield of the plate I'm sorry I don't think so I think the 196 was way back from day zero see that was back when we first found the gross area and gross section yield then we designed the wells so that they would not fail so we at least get the full strength of our plate all right now those are simple connections a simple connection is one where the resultant of the load goes through the centroid of the bolt group or the centroid of the weld group so if you have a weld on an angle here's an angle and you will find we'll talk about it later on that sometimes it's to your advantage to make that weld longer than this weld because the centroid of the angle is here looking at it from the end so you put so you don't get eccentricity in it don't know why I told you that and then here's the load coming down the centroid of the angle and then the centroid of the wells matches with the centroid of the angle that's why that is now still a simple connection but if you say yeah well I don't think the code really or the specs say that I'm gonna put six inches of well put six inches of weld and I'm going home you put your load wherever you dang well please well then that is a then that is not a simple connection because the centroid of your weld group six inches six inches is in the middle here is your load off by two inches that is not a simple connection that's an eccentric connection you may not have to handle it the specs may say that's okay reasonable and other times they'll say that's too far you must take into account the moment caused by that force times that eccentricity so if you have a load here at the center of something and then the wells are like this because you can't get to that side that's okay you can do that we do it all the time but you will have to admit first you'll pick up the load p and you'll put it at the centroid and you'll distribute that load p uniformly across the entire connection and then you'll have to come back once that's finished and put a bending moment p times e and handle that moment part on the connection or generally that's done when you have a plate that looks like this welded to a column and you just weld it and the loads out here then you'll take that load and you will pretend it's on the centroid of the weld and that all 50 kips comes out in all 10 inches 50 divided by 10 all the way around then you come back and on this weld group you put a moment p times e to handle that part of the load on the connection read this here are typical connections these will be bolted for a while number one the bolts are in pure shear where you see a number two they're in shear and in tension here is a side view of a beam bolted to a column here is the end view of that beam bolted to a column if you look at these bolts if you look at these bolts here and you cut it loose from the column and you ask what's going on with this angle there's a shear force acting up on the angle because there's some loads acting down on the beam and that load is eccentric from these bolts since that's the case the first thing I'm going to do is I'm going to pick up this force R and I'm going to put it at the centroid of the bolted connection and I'm going to tell you the force on that bolt is r over three r over three r over three there's that bolt there's r over three on that one there's not room there's r over three straight up on that one there's r over three straight up on that one since this load does not truly go through the centroid of the bolts that we are now analyzing it's out of distance e you will have to put a bending moment m that'll be r times e r times e clockwise means that it's going to pull on this bolt it's going to push on that bolt and it's not going to do anything to that bolt because that bolt is on the centroid of the bolt group this number was r over three this number right here has to keep this thing in equilibrium since that moment is equal to r times e then this force multiplied times the bolt spacing plus this force times the bolt spacing those two two times the force in shear times the spacing has to cause a moment r times e that's how you'll solve for f sub v f sub b is equal to the reaction force times the eccentricity divided by two times the spacing that's if there's two bolts if you got four bolts or eight bolts or 11 bolts obviously it's a little more complex the interesting thing is is when you push this angle up on this girder you shear the bolts in shear you load the bolts in shear you wipe this face across that face and shear the bolts when you put a moment on this angle you also wipe the bolts you push this point right back you push this point to the left and you shear the bolt therefore the force in the bolt is r over three in shear squared plus this force in shear squared take a square root and these bolts are loaded in these bolts are loaded in shear now then instead of looking at this free body let's look at the column with the bolt the bolts attached where the force r the same force r that was on the last one is down through these three bolts now we're talking about these people here first i'm gonna you see it i do it all the time i lie i picked the load up and i put it at the shear plane in other words i say e is zero you say no it's not i say well until i say otherwise right now it's right there it's okay be that way then i'm going to show you a force down on this bolt at this shear plane right here and that force is r over three and there's one on that bolt and there's one on that bolt and there's one on that bolt now then i'm going to admit that i have a moment that goes this way about this centroid it's magnitude is r times e there it is right there m is equal to r times e it's going to pull on that bolt you'll notice it's not shearing the bolt now on this connection it's a tension force on that bolt and this one is compressing the bolt now the truth is it's not compressing the bolt it's really compressing these two surfaces but we assume that it's just pressing on the bolt and since i'm going to design this one for that tension the fact this one doesn't really have that tension or compression force in it i don't care it's really just going to get pure shear still the force up here is going to have to say t times s plus t times s is equal to r times e going to be the same tension force there as we had a shear force here the problem is i can no longer do this i can't say that's r over three and that's equal to t i don't know what it is whatever it was up here i can't say that that's well i can say that and that is what's going on in the bolt but a minute ago you could design this bolt for shear period go home what do you have with what do you have to do here what is it biaxial okay biaxial sounds about two axes give me something else that sounds like two interaction equation it's nastier than biaxial bending oh i guess not really because biaxial bending you got an interaction equation you got to do all that interaction stuff first you got to design it for shear make sure the shear is not too big then and once you do that you find out if you got any tension left over for you and then if you got any tension left over for you you can check it against that force there so this connection is not the one you want to see on the quiz this is the one you want to see on the quiz now there's two ways of doing this one's called is not called it is an elastic analysis what you do is you take the load and you put it at the center or to the bolt group and you distribute the load uniformly between eight bolts then you take the load times the eccentricity and put a torque on it and you apply a tc over j equation to it doesn't exactly fit the real world because tc over j was derived for a solid cylinder uh flat circle but it's plenty close and it's a little on the safe side so we will get some forces that go this way and some forces that go due to the twisting and then we stop the world whenever the first bolt yields now that leaves us with a lot of strength there that we haven't accounted for number one the fact is this bolt can yield it can go past yield allowing the next bolt to yield and then he can yield and then the next bolt will yield and the next bolt and first thing you know they may not all get to yield because for instance to get this one to yield you might have to roll that plate 50 degrees so when one of these bolts reaches a real honest goodness max that we have to quit then we'll quit on the whole thing but believe me picking up all these other people's additional capacity is quite uh an increase in the number so we're gonna have an elastic analysis then we're going to have a plastic analysis so we'll work on those next time it's getting time to drag your quiz by since you found that uh i can't even add right five points to your detriment you need to bring those up pretty soon a few days or have you got cheated in any respect thank you


Welcome to the Donahue Group. We're delighted that you're joining us for another fun-filled half hour of conversation regarding issues of great interest, at least as some of us. Joining me today, I'm going to start on my direct right this time. An itinerant social studies teacher. Gypsy. A gypsy social studies teacher from the Sheboygan Area School District, Ken Risto, a social studies guy. A more respectable sort. Tom Pineski, professor at the University of Wisconsin, Sheboygan, teaching math. Cal Potter, our former state senator and former DPI, Assistant Superintendent of Public Libraries. I'm always so happy when I can get that all out. Well, it actually is longer than that. I had eight different bureaus. So you just picked on one of them, so keep it. It's that simple. I'll never get that. I'm Mary Lynn Donahue. I practice law here over and over again in the city of Sheboygan. We're talking about local issues today, and we've got quite a lot of stuff to talk about. We are just before the April election, about two weeks away, I think. Reminding voters, Tuesday, April 4th is voting day. And at least for now, you don't have to show a picture ID. So you can just come and vote as you will. But we have a huge electric bill with you. And bring a huge electric bill. Prove where you live. A lot of angry people at the polls. We have to live in Wisconsin. It cost us $400 in utility bills. We have a bunch of each and every district has a contested race. The primary has win out the candidates down. I just want to run through the list, because I think it's an interesting group with some interesting issues. And I'm looking for predictions, prognostications to the extent that you're comfortable. First district, Alderman Manny has been challenged by a Patrick Gillette. Manny, I think, is coming back for his third term, if I'm not mistaken. Tom, you're a district one resident. That's correct. What do you think? Who's going to win? Oh, Manny. All right. And is it the power of the incumbency? I think so. I'm going to stop. If you're listening, Manny, you've yet to come to my door. You've yet to put a piece of literature on my door. And that does influence me. All right. But he's got two weeks. You've got two weeks. Unfortunately, by the time he sees it, it's too late. The election will be over. But you can say I told you so. In the McLaughlin group, the predictions come at the end of the show. We're doing it right up front. And we'll keep. I actually did enter a donation. I put a donation in the office, donation basket regarding the NCAA basketball tournament. And I'm doing pretty well. I got 119 points so far, which I think the guy who's running the donation. You're doing all the stats in schools. You're really in trouble. Well, I did. That's why I'm not far ahead. I had to pick the Wisconsin schools. We got Manny. I'm sorry. Let's put that in their bracket. OK. West Fall and Ryan. Now, that's an interesting position being vacated by Don Van Akron, who, after losing the election last year, was reappointed by the council. That's my district. I don't know. The primary results, if I remember correctly, were within 10 votes. West Fall ahead of Ryan, but not by much. Ryan did not participate in the public forum pre-primary. I'm sure he will be at the forum now. Any ideas? I'd just say when you got two new people, who's going to the door? We don't know. If you don't live in the district, I guess. You don't know whether you've got literature or not. I know it's a shaboying custom to look at lawn signs. And certainly, Ryan is, I've not seen a West Fall sign anywhere. They may be out there. I just haven't seen them here. Ryan's are all over the place. And of course, he's got the resources to do that. I think it's going to be close. I think it's going to be real close. The name is simple, R-Y-A, yeah. And West Fall has been in the news a little bit for his local station for the survey. Yeah, there you go. It'll be interesting. District three. Did you predict? Oh, you said we don't know. I think it's really too close to call. I would probably, I guess in the interest of full disclosure, I know Jack and work with Jack. But I got a feeling Ryan's going to prevail in that race. It'll be close. I think it'll be Ryan. Yeah. I think your point is well taken about how the election is run and who you see at your door and so forth. Clayunas and Wolfe are running in district three. This was the most interesting result out of the primary with our incumbent being completely blown out of the water. Clayunas clearly, clearly a commanding lead even against the second place finisher. My bets are on Jean Clayunas. True. I think she'll be a fine addition to the council. I think she's very thoughtful and I don't know Mr. Wolfe and he may be just the same, but I like Jean and I think she's intelligent and will work hard. The fourth district brought us an interesting race with challenger James Moran coming ahead of Dan Berg, the incumbent by a significant number of votes. That's your district. It's my district. And how's that been playing? Well, first of all, stepping back, Joe Heidemann who was just a brand newcomer to the city, lived in Sheboygan Falls all of his life and a challenger also got a reasonably, I think a good chunk, a good showing for his first time. So that gives you kind of the anti-incumbent sense. And so I can't imagine that those of us who voted for Joe are going to cross over and vote for the incumbent. So I'm thinking we're gonna have a new alderman there. Right, right. You know, go by lawn signs. Clearly, again, the challenger's got some resources. They're all over my neighborhood. And I would say, I say we're gonna have a new, my prediction would be we're gonna have a new alderman. Yeah. Dan Berg, of course, is unchallenged. Second that, yeah. You agree with that? Yeah. Unchallenged in the county board race. So he'll remain on the county board, but it'll be interesting. District five, the incumbent Bonnie Serta against Jeff Schucho.  Was it Jeff, or is it Larry? Is it Jeff? I'm not familiar with him. Oh, I don't know him. Schucho, I think it's Jeff. Is it Jeff? Okay, I thought I saw a sign that said Larry, but maybe I, okay. But it's an indication, really, of how debased politics can get. And of course, whoever did it sent letters out, hate letters about both of them.  There's so much that's good, but this is just. And why people don't eventually run, why do they want to possibly subject themselves to that type of behavior? Yeah. Well, Bonnie works out here at the, she goes to school here, and she has part-time job here, and she really is interested in serving the city, and I think she will continue to, I think she's probably campaigning in as best she can while working and going to school. And she had a considerable lead over the, over both of the opponents. So, I think Bonnie sort of will come back. I would go with Bonnie. And Cal doesn't really care, because outside the sphere of influence here. Not in your district. These people are working hard for your endorsement, and you're just sitting on the sideline right now. Come on up. You know, I think I've got my numbers mixed up actually for districts. I apologize. I think Clayunas is actually in district five. I beg your pardon. District three is Jean Kittleson versus Scott Lewandowski. Jean Kittleson, I believe, is just coming back for her second term, if I'm not mistaken. Scott Lewandowski is kind of a perennial candidate, awfully nice guy. I haven't heard much there, one way or the other. My sense is that Alder, the incumbent would. My sense would be, it's not my district, but I would think that Jean is going to be reelected pretty handily. I think talking with people rightly or wrongly again, in the first round of candidate forums, Jean is real thoughtful, quiet, is not a person that's going to play to the cameras. Real careful about taking a position, wants to think it through, and in the candidate forum that was presented as, you know, who is he, where is she, she's never, we don't know what. And I think it came across as being pretty mean spirited. I probably wasn't intended that way, but it came across when people who watched the forum and the people I talked to in the Pigley Wigglies and all that kind of thing around town, was that, you know, it was a little tough on her and I think she's going to get some sympathy and there's going to be some backlash against that approach. And I haven't seen and heard too much in the next, we'll see when the next round of candidate forums how that's going to play out. But I think Jean perceives herself and really does work at trying to be, and I again, in the interest of disclosure, know her pretty well. I think tries to be a bridge builder in a council that sometimes probably could use a couple of those. So I got a feeling my sense would be she's going to be reelected. District seven, Bill Steffen is leaving. Mark Hanna, who is just finishing up his term on the Sheboyganary School District School Board is running against a young man who as I understand it, we could probably say might not be a completely serious candidate, only in the sense of having brought a beer to the televised debates that the... Again, I think the mistake was not bringing everybody else one. Yeah.  You can't just have one for yourself. Yeah. And I mean no disrespect to this young man. That may just have been his way. Well, I am. I kind of break me. I'd go to the forums. Yeah. Well, Mark, I'm a bridge builder, Ken. Well, I'm sorry. I'm trying to be kind to it. But I think Mark had a little bit of a gift here in terms of this race. I think certainly some of the other matches, let's put it this way. Yeah, but Mark runs city-wide or school district, right? He's well-known. His name is out there. And Mark likes to be out there. They voted it. The seventh district people voted for him before for school board. Mark was someone say Mark is out there. Mark is. No, he's real. I mean, you're absolutely right.  Yeah. And he's obviously been involved in a lot of service organizations and involved in his faith community and. So. That's a shoe in. Mark's not going to break a sweat. Yeah. Well, everyone deserves a race like that from time to time. Yeah. And finally, in the eighth district, we have the incumbent Silas Vanderweel, who I think is running for his third term, if I'm not mistaken, against Dustin Havens, who ran last year in my district, apparently has moved since then. That's going to be an interesting one. And I think really pretty kind of hard to call at this point. The primary results were very close, I think within, I think fewer than 10 votes if my memory serves me correctly. And so I, I'm just not sure. Any ideas, thoughts on that one? Well, you think the incumbency would help, but you don't know as a result of all the shenanigans that have gotten a lot of publicity as far as the institution of the Common Council and how much anti-incumbency might play in a race. There are those who, no matter how long you've been there, if you're in there for one term, you're the incumbent, you're the institution, if there's something wrong with it, whether it's spinoff from the library situation or whatever, people will say, well, we want change. But the incumbency is a very difficult thing to overcome. It really is. And of course, last year in 2005, I think there was a huge issue that really propelled a whole lot of the race. And I'm seeing in just in how these things are playing out that this may just be a completion of that cycle. I think people were discouraged with how the city council was doing business. A year ago, and I think clearly that is a sense that remains at least to some extent, when you have 24 people running for eight spots, one, we've talked many times on this program about celebrating democracy, but it also is a pretty clear indicator that people are dissatisfied with how things are going and looking for a change. So, well, we'll see how we do on the scorecard. And- We're gonna leave that at high. Too close to call. I think that's too close to call. What's great about this is that by the time this is actually shown, it's not gonna influence anybody. Right, I know. You can say what you want, because it's like Doctor Who in reverse. Yeah, well, it could also, I mean, how about turnout? I mean, what other issues are there to encourage people to turn out? Well, I think Vanderwill's gonna be reelected, but it's gonna be real close. I think because he lost narrowly in the primary, I think he's gonna make a concerted effort to try to get his folks to the polls. And with the referendum, I think you'll end up narrowly squeaking out a win. Well, and we're gonna move on, I think, to talk about other issues that may bring people to the polls, but before we move away from city politics, Christine Menard died this past week, and I think all of us knew Chris, and she was a force unto herself and a unique, quite wonderful person. Tom, you served on the city council with Chris? Yes, I served with Chris, and Mayor Sol rest in peace, bless her heart. She was a fun person. She loved politics, she loved the city. One year, we sort of campaigned together, I mean, she and the second district, me and the first district, when we did a restaurant and have a good time. And she, when we were doing, remember the ambulance controversy? Well, how could we forget? Chris and I were just like that on that, and she was very vocal and very supportive, and I think she's been kind of ill of late, I guess, yeah, and so I was kind of surprised just to see it in the paper. I didn't realize she was that old. I think she was 77, and so she has served the city well. And we'll miss her. We'll just harken back to the days when it was really hard to get a good cup of coffee in Sheboygan, and I remember you could go to Coffee End and buy your coffee beans, and 15, 20 years ago, that was a pretty big deal, and... Well, that's true, also if you, and if you wanted to talk politics, she'd love to talk politics, you go into the store, you make all kinds of deals in Coffee End. Now, this is sort of an aside, but if I wanted to create a rumor, I'd talk to Chris. Because she knew a lot of people, she talked a lot, and I'd say, well, I'm thinking of doing this, and pretty soon everybody knew I was so good. Chris was the trial balloon. So she was good, though. I liked Chris. I enjoyed her tremendously. I mean, I used to go into Coffee End, which was actually one of the first, when you look at the waterfront now and all the different boutiques and things, she really was one of the first people that really understood marketing and retail and of course she came back from Sheboygan from New York City, where she did some of that, but she had kind of the first boutique store, and it really was the only place to get really what we'd call an agurame coffee, and I used to have a lot of talk with her, and then of course she held court over at Rupps. I saw her sitting at Rupps, and she would hold court. She'd have a martini sitting there in a cigarette, and she and I would sit and talk, and we'd have great, great conversations. Yeah, that's right, that's right. But she was kind of had one spot, and I'd see her there from time to time, and everybody could go up to her and talk to her. She was one of the most accessible people that you ever want to meet. So let's bring a little bit of fun back to the city council, huh? It doesn't seem like it's much fun these days, and it's... Well, two candidates campaigning together. I mean, that's what I was struck when Tom was telling the story. Two candidates actually kind of enjoying each other's and jumping in and seeing people out of Tia. Well, just a quick aside, but John Buchan, circuit court judge here for many years was our neighbor for any number of years as well, and he tells the story when he and Nat Heffernan were both running for district attorney when they got back to Sheboygan after World War II, and old Mr. Buchan Gustav, who had been in the legislature, I believe for a protracted period of time, old Mr. Buchan had the car, and he would give the car to John Buchan and Nat Heffernan on alternating days. So that they could drive around the county. And of course, Chief Justice Heffernan was well-known for campaigning and every bar that he could possibly find. And he tells the story, these are good storytellers of having campaigned hard all one afternoon, only to find out he had spent about three or four hours in Ozaki County. He had crossed the line in his efforts, but that's equal opportunity campaigning, so. Let's talk. Campaign momentum. There you go. Momentum. There you go. Sometimes I think those days have passed and we're the poorer for it. The county has a, the referendum is, I think gonna draw a fair number of people to the polls. Advice to the county board as to whether or not citizens are willing to exceed the allowable tax levy in order to support the nursing homes. That's how is, how is it worded? Does anybody? Well, there are two questions. One is on exceeding the limit for the nursing homes and the other is just exceeding the limit for county expenditures. So it gives, I think, the people of choice of whether they wanna be very generous or generous only in one area. Oh, sorry, I'm gonna have two. We'll get to vote yes or no on two questions. Two questions, okay. And as with all referenda questions, and I think we'll be talking about this in our next show about statewide referenda, how you word items clearly influences the outcome. I think the wording here is pretty straightforward and pretty neutral. It does not reflect the complexity of the subject but how could a referendum question reflect that kind of complexity? So I think it will be interesting and 9,000 people signed, 9,000 plus signed a petition to have an advisory referendum. So my sense is that it will turn the voters out. We haven't seen much in the newspaper. We're still a good two weeks, right? Yes. Out from the election. But those of us who have been in contested elections know that the last two weeks are the toughest and that's when things really do start to heat up and people start paying attention. I think it's been quiet so far. The ambiguity is we don't know how much we're voting for if we exceed the limit. Does there is any dollar amounts attached to this? Like well, I'll vote yes to exceed the limit and that'll mean X dollars, it doesn't say. Well, the county board struggled. The supervisor struggled and struggled to find language. They'd given up at one point and then I believe it was Carl Adi who brought it back and the language is simple but it's straightforward and I think captures and remember it's just an advisory referendum but captures the sense of how citizens feel about their nursing homes. Is it worthwhile spending any more money than we would have to spend or that we would be allowed to spend under revenue caps and so I think it'll reflect the feelings of the populace of the voters if not certainly not the incredibly complicated realities of maintaining nursing homes and the cost and medical assistance reimbursements. Sunny Ridge and Rocky Knoll get the sickest of the sick and the most difficult of the difficult patients and residents just because a number of private nursing homes just don't have the resources to provide services to that group of folks so it really is and interestingly enough the population at Sunny Ridge is I get the minutes from the healthcare center committee meetings and that population is steadily going down to that target of 150 I believe. So not kicking anybody out but just in terms of not taking in new admissions so I mean there is that diminishment and it'll be interesting to see how that plays out. I suspect the people who will vote yes on the exceeding the limit for the nursing homes are not gonna be that concerned whether it's two million or three million. They're just very committed to the county providing that level of care and not getting out of the business totally which is I think of the fear that many people had and the downsizing while it didn't set well with the true advocates for the homes I think they're willing to come forth and say we're gonna pay for what we need to pay for to keep these places open. Yeah. What about another item? Let's get to Shmoygan Falls and let's go. We should comment on the county board in the sense that there aren't many races and that in a way is a shame and maybe that will lend hopefully if there's a smaller county board maybe we'll get to the focus that you have on the city council. It always amazes me how almost all the seats are contested in the city. Here you have 35 county board seats only a handful are contested and here you have a budget that's just million many millions of dollars. Zero press coverage. Yes, yes. And hopefully if they'd go down to 24 or 17 we'd get more focus on that office and the magnitude of the decisions that are made on the county level. It's really a shame in a way. Yeah. Well I see that I've completely lost control of hosting this show. And Tom is anxious to talk about Shmoygan Falls. It's a very democratic forum. That's a democratic forum. I mean, I'm okay with it. I'm okay with it. I hope we throw the arbitrary host and let's talk about what we wanna talk about. The gypsy host, we can just pass it around. But Tom. No, I was looking for Calix. Let's see, that's his area. Are you living in Falls? That's right. So how are you gonna vote? I saw the big, I mean they're very dramatic. It's just a big red sign that says no. I think Shmoygan Falls deserves additional facilities. If you look at the size of the community, it's very close to Plymouth and look at Plymouth. I mean a number of elementary schools, they have a middle school, high school, and Shmoygan Falls for years did so much in so few buildings. Maybe that's probably part of the problem is you try to catch up, you try to do multiple buildings within a short period of time and you get sticker shocked from the electorate. But the fact of the matter is a community that size should have, I think, a middle school, a high school, elementary schools. And what you're trying to do here is probably catch up for a lost time. But like I said, it comes on the heels of a fairly new elementary school and it comes on the heels of people who are having property tax bills that are with the cost of homes today higher than they'd like them to be. Exactly. The critics of the referendum talk to a few of them and they really are concerned that if the state starts playing around with funding mechanisms, they're gonna end up, as you said, Cal funding a lot of debt in a short period of time. And then with revenue caps going to, being forced to go to the public and saying we need to exceed the caps and what happens if you can't? And then you start to talk about cuts in programs and in staff and those kinds of things. There really are in a tough spot because the building is, I'm not walk through it, but I've talked to some staff who teach there and I've talked to some people who walk through there. Falls doesn't even, Falls doesn't even, when they have new parents coming in, they show them the elementary school, they show them the high school, and they sort of just say, oh, that's our elementary school over there.  They're really in a rough, between a rock and a hard spot because they waited. Now, the opponents are saying we have to wait 15 years. 15 years for that older building. I mean, it's a tough call. Do you keep dumping money into a building that you know eventually is not going to pan out? And layered on top of that is there's some, all of this still residual unhappiness in the community about the football situation and how the board and the school board and how they make decisions. And yes, last night, I'm told this afternoon that last night they actually, the old board just before the election just offered the superintendent another two year contract. And I think there's gonna be a real backlash to that. I think the timing there is just absolutely dreadful because it looks like the old guard is trying to present a potential new guard with a superintendent with a contractor ready. And so I think that's gonna make that referendum even more difficult to pass. And I suspect it'll fail. I wouldn't surprise me. Yeah, and most referenda do fail the first time out or the second or sometime the third. My folks are from Antigo with little town up North and they have a beautiful new high school that took them about 40 years to get two lawsuits through the Wisconsin Supreme Court. They, I mean, it was an incredibly complex process because the community simply did not want to spend the money. And now they have a beautiful school, but nonetheless, they did not wanna spend that money. And I think it's a big price tag for a middle school, $24 million. And as I followed the news, it started out at 13 and just kind of steadily went up. And so I think there may be, I haven't paid close enough attention, but I think they're gonna really struggle. Plus again, a very contested school board race. There are six people running for three seats and I don't know how that's going to turn out, but I think that, I think that's it. It reflects the division in the community and the division over this issue as well as other issues. And anytime you have that type of contention, it doesn't bode well for the easy passage of a building referendum. It really doesn't. I think Sheboygan was a good classic example of getting all the ducks in order to get the field houses and the other expansions you have here and get the vote you did. It was just to magnificently run PR as well as operational thing between the school board and the constituency out there. Well, the key in the 96 and also the past referendum for the Sheboygan area school district truly, I think you hit it on the head. There was just this incredibly wide, broad base of community support. Well, next time we'll know how our prognostications happened and we'll see. If we're wrong, we won't mention a thing. We'll have a little poster. And then we'll post the NCAA results and we'll just see just how good we are. Thanks.