I think we better make a start because there are 25 people online already, so for the sake of punctuality, I think we can start now, very few in the room. Hello everybody. My name is Daniel Mordiasso with C4iCraft and it's been running a project on sustainable wetland adaptation and mitigation programs supported by USID and working with colleagues in the US Forest Service for more than a decade. And we've been working a lot on issues related to carbon, bread and wealth in the coastal ecosystem, especially mangrove. And looking at that for many years in many countries, we thought it's time now to look at the other issue which is, you know, waiting for us with regard to market. So this community is going to share with us and also with you in the audience online about our thinking and our ideas about the future of blue carbon in the context of market. And from the scientific point of view, we are happy to have crowd of experts in their own field and interests to help us understanding where we are going to move forward after, you know, this conversation. And the title of this session is called improving the confidence. So the key words there is confidence. And as I said, we have numbers, but most of the time people are questioning. So that it is a challenge for us as well as silly the scientific community to improve the quality of the data. And another topic that we are looking forward to see and perhaps also expect the challenges is regarding the governance so that that will be a new area for blue carbon community. So I'm happy to introduce our speakers today. We have Indonesian colleagues who's been working for mangrove restoration and pitland for many years, and he is willing to share with us about the work in Indonesia, whether it's going to be restoration or rehabilitation or and as well as conservation. We will see what does it mean in the context of carbon and market. Mr. Noviar will be with us online and then the work in Indonesia has been followed by many colleagues, including colleagues in FAO Pablo will be looking at that from the perspective of remote sensing and finer fine tuning the site for restoration and the quality of carbon there. And then we will also have colleagues who is looking at the market and the issue of finance. And Alisa is also online from Germany looking at the finance system from other projects and she will share with us what's going to happen if this finance stream is going to be implemented in the blue carbon arena. Team calls just arrived before lunch rushing to the room here and luckily from the UK and we'll be sharing with us this idea of having a better market and quality of the asset in the blue carbon ecosystem by incorporating the importance of protecting biodiversity. So talking about premium price, biodiversity is really on the spotlight of buyers and also global community. So we look forward to hear what team calls is going to share with us and guide us where to go in the future in improving the quality and also incorporating biodiversity. Two of my colleagues from C4Ecraft has been working for a long time in GCS red global comparative study on red and especially looking at the governance to benefit sharing etc. So she will be jumping in the discussion and share with us where to go from the challenges that have been found in finding in the red community. But before my colleagues is going to give ideas and thoughts about their work particularly, I would like to invite and welcome Janet Nakoni from USID who's been faithfully supporting our work in Indonesia and elsewhere. We've been working I mentioned in the plenary about 20 plus countries so far in the last decades also. Janet. Great thank you so much Daniel. My name is Janet Nakoni and I'm with the US Agency for International Development, USCID and my colleague Evan Naughtmann is also here in the audience. And as Daniel mentioned we've been supporting the Sustainable Wetlands Adaptation Mitigation Program, SWAMP, for probably since about 2011. This is a consortium of a partnership between USCID, US Forest Service and the Center for International Forestry Research, C4. And SWAMP really builds capacity and conducts applied research to advance the conservation, management and restoration of mangroves and tropical peatlands around the world. The scientists and researchers in SWAMP work closely with partner country governments to advance mangrove and peatland restoration, carbon stocks and emissions estimations and also data and mapping approaches. And SWAMP also provides support to help countries include mangroves and peatlands in their nationally determined contributions and advance their reporting of their associated greenhouse gas emissions. And so before I turn it back over to Daniel I just like to highlight two real successes and contributions of the SWAMP program in the area of mangrove research and development. So you might have heard some of you who have worked in the mangroves have might have heard about the SWAMP protocol. And this is a data collection method that's been used. It's used actively in 27 countries now to measure, monitor and report on carbon stocks in mangroves. And what's really special about it was that it was codified in the 2013 wetland supplement to the IPCC guidance. So it's really starting to be used a lot more often and really helps with these efforts. Another real success of SWAMP has been advancing methods for identifying priority sites for restoration in Indonesia. And I understand we'll hear a little bit more about that today. So it's been really inspiring to see the results coming out of this program, really pairing up applied research with country government decision making to really make more impact in the area of blue carbon. And this is really one of our programs that sort of comes the closest to sort of advancing pathways toward blue carbon and helping countries get ready to participate in those markets. So thanks so much to Daniel and to all the presenters today. I really look forward to the session. Thanks. Thank you, Janet. That's very inspiring kind of direction where to go. And thanks also for taking the note about the progress so far. And we are really encouraged to move forward. And I mentioned earlier that we've been lucky to have a number of data and also information related to data because it's not only packaged as data but also information. And what does it mean in terms of protecting or conserving and also restoring. But this data really need to be presented in the marketplace if you wish because the wealth of the data is not to be kept in the bookshelf or publication or whatever. But really the public needs this. And we've been very careful. And I'm trying to set the scene here with countries where we've been working with and how to present this to them. That's very important lesson that we learn when we present data. So market is going to be the next kind of level where people will be chatting and exchanging knowledge and experience. And with the data we have, we've been very privileged to have that kind of network. So globally we've been covering this. My colleagues, Boone Kaufman, who've been pioneering on this work, including the protocol that Janet mentioned, we put together the work across the globe. And what I would like to underline here, like what I did in the plenary is that most of this stock is in the soil. So how important and how interesting it is for the market. Because usually people are looking at forest and carbon from the sky or from the surface, but not under the ground. So this is the issue that we have. So when we're talking about peatland and mangrove in the plenary, mangrove always have low carbon content but high bulk density. Compared with the peatland, which is the other way around, high carbon content, low bulk density. And these stripes of vegetation protecting the coastal zone has important role in adaptation issues. So remember those numbers about 1,000 or 1,500 ton per hectare, which is five times higher than terrestrial forest. But it is often misunderstood that mangrove sequestering five times compared with terrestrial ecosystem, which is completely wrong. The stock and the flux is different issues. So we will see how market will see numbers like this. And hopefully they are not going to be misled by this multiplication of things. So another work that we did is looking at, in general, comparing the other blue carbon ecosystems. Still mangrove is higher up there in the stage because the net present value for the carbon and other ecosystem surfaces. This is something that we need to take care of. So it's much, much higher than any other wetland ecosystem. Wetland ecosystem or blue carbon ecosystem and the rest of terrestrial forest. 90,000 per hectare, that's the net present value, which is way beyond what people can get if you, for example, convert the ecosystem into oil bomb plantation, which is only nine to maximum 10,000 and this is 90,000. But the challenge is there with regard to destruction of this. That's why somebody in the plenary mentioned that, although we have this in a suit of carbon-rich ecosystem, the challenge is so high. And I repeat this again from the plenary, just to make sure that countries also have the agenda of including blue carbon ecosystem in the adaptation, not only in the mitigation. And that is entertained in the NDC reporting. And next year, sorry, this year will be the stock taking, will be presented in COP 28 from each country, the stock taking from the NDC. So blue carbon is in the middle of the conversation today, but also in the context of other convention, including climate change, certainly, but also biodiversity convention. And I was in Gland last week with the Ramsar Convention, blue carbon is high in the agenda now. So thanks to GFOI also, it's also in the radar screen of this community. So suddenly we will be moving faster than I was thinking about. CMS is another, that's the Convention for Migratory Species. Very often we missed out these issues that, mine growth is the restaurant of this species to migrate from one place to the other. And then national agenda and other global agenda, suddenly looking at achieving this target of sustainable development goal. And there are a number of target that has to be achieved in the rest of this decade. So SDG 6, 13, 14 will have a lot of bearing with blue carbon issues. The problem is, as we are going to speak today, how the finance will be incorporated in this debate at national level, at local level community involvement, and then how it is going to be governed. So with the speakers that I have, I mentioned earlier, we are expecting them to comment on these possibilities from their own perspective. We will begin with a case in Indonesia where 600,000 of mangrove will be restored in the next few years. The challenge is there. So we will be hearing from Pat Nofiar, speaking from Jakarta online. Time is yours Pat Nofiar. Thank you, Pat Daniel. Does my voice sound clear? I want to know. Does my voice sound clear, Pat Daniel? Yes, clear. Okay, thank you. Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, good evening from Jakarta. First of all, I'm very grateful for invitation from GMOI to be a resource person at this event. In this session, I will present about the priorities in mangrove rehabilitation program in Indonesia. Based on the national mangrove map published by the Ministry of Environment and Forestry in 2020, the area of mangrove ecosystem in Indonesia is 336 million hectares. This mangrove ecosystem has a very large role as an area for fish nursery, land protection from abrasion, carbon storage. Some literature says Indonesia mangrove ecosystem consists of more than 1,000 megaton carbon per hectares, protecting biological habitat, supplying wood raw material and cultural and educational services. The existence of mangrove ecosystem in Indonesia is very threatened due to illegal logging, mangrove conversion, and coastal reclamation. The threat of this activity caused a reduction in area of mangrove ecosystem such as various data states that until 1960 due to timber exploitation, there has been degradation of mangrove ecosystem in Sumatra and Japa about 200,000 hectares. The combination of timber and piecepoint exploitation caused the loss of 800,000 hectares of mangrove in 30 years since the 1980s. And also, if we don't do any action or business as usual, by 2030 we will lose mangrove area almost 300,000 hectares. Based on the national mangrove map, it is stated that the conversion of mangrove to non-manggrove, which is dominated by pond, with a total area more than 600,000 hectares. As we know, the peace production tend to continue to decline. So to increase the peace production, they tend to open the new piecepoint area for extentification. The target given by the president to BRGM is a pit and mangrove restoration agency was to rehabilitate 600,000 hectares in mangrove, out of 3.33 million hectares in nine priorities provinces. It was necessary to select location in various ways. With the help of various parties, such as the consulting firm and individual consultant, the mangrove loss analysis was carried out to using the club lab, Hansen and Red Methodologies. I'm not the GIS expert, but I think these methodologies really helped us in selecting candidate mangrove rehabilitation sites. It is still necessary to improve the methodology, especially related to the provision of high resolution satellite imagery. In addition, based on the lesson learned in the past year, we have finally decided to find the location that easiest to handle, that we believe will give the best result. We call this location as the low hanging food location. And also we try to avoid location directly facing the sea because it will easy to fail due to very big waves. And also the location that have undergone rehabilitation and concession area such as forest and farm oil will be excluded to avoid double claims. The first three bullet are for making macro or semi-details plan. While the last two bullet are detailed planning, namely in the form of preparing the detailed engineering design and implementing a PIC to ensure that this plan is according with technical and social know. Based on the result of macro planning using the methodologies, as I explained, the indicative location as often as shown in the image above. This indicative data should be subject to change if a more accurate methodology is used. That is why we need some help technical assistance from other institutions. This is my last slide. Based on experience in carrying out mangrove rehabilitation activities in the last two years, we can say that there are several challenges related to the RGM collaboration with Paris Parties in supporting the successful implementation of mangrove rehabilitation in Indonesia. We are very happy if there is a lot of support from various parties, especially related to technology in mangrove mapping, supporting on mangrove rehabilitation funding, development on livelihood activities, technology on M and E, including in carbon sequestration. That's all, Daniel, that I want to present. Thank you. Thank you very much, Panoviar. Let's give a big applause to Panoviar from Jakarta, so please stay with us if you can. We will be hearing comments from colleagues here, and suddenly we take a note about the importance of monitoring with high-resolution satellite imageries and the need of better techniques so that that's also an issue of quality that we are trying to bring up here in this session. Without further ado, I would like to invite Pablo to comment and give your ideas about this kind of challenge that's been put up on the table by one single country, but this is an example of big mangrove landscape in the world. I think a quarter of the world mangrove is in Indonesia, so it's good to jump into this discussion while the issue is presented here. Okay, thank you, Daniel. Can you hear me well? My name is Pablo Martin. I work in the National Forest Monitoring Team. I have done some work with mangroves, and now I'm here basically to present some of the work that my colleagues in the mangrove team have developed in different parts of the world, so I will be talking about high-resolution satellite imagery not only for mapping but also for restoration and improving the confidence and the value of the estimations of mangrove estates and biomass and etc. I'm presenting here some work done by my colleagues from Myanmar, so they in view of a potential forest reference level in Myanmar at a subnational level for the mangrove biome, they made a new map extent of mangroves taking the frail proposed period 2016 to 2021, and they used the analysis of time series of landsat and sentinel satellites including temporal dynamics, and they also used some algorithms present in the CPL platform that is created by FAO. They used some training data coming from global datasets like the global mangrove watch, global mangrove forest distribution, and the land cover from from Myanmar in 2015, and based in some common agreement of presence of absence of mangroves, they mapped the probability of mangrove presence using a stratified random sampling using Google Earth Engine. Additionally, they trained these data sets over uncertain areas, and this is a very nice outcome from this assessment because they were able through the use of visual interpretation using collect Earth to locate areas with new mangrove that was not estimated before, and in some provinces they were even able to estimate as much as 50% more than was well believed before. This also allowed this system of classifications also allowed to create different classes like the level of maturity of the mangrove, the canopy coverage, also degraded and degradation and regeneration classes in the mangrove, and they are working still not finished in a basal area estimation which demonstrated to be a very good parameter related to young and major forest mangroves. Next slide is about very high resolution mapping for mangroves, so we are aware of the importance of very high resolution as Daniel said before in satellite imagery to get higher details on mangroves, but the lack of spatial detail sometimes in the global products that I spoke before results in missing and inaccurate mapping of many of narrow and fringing mangroves for example that are common in the small island developing states as you can see in the figure there and in addition many local managers lack the technical capacity to map these areas, so we are my colleagues in power working in this manual to bring these capacities and these techniques and these new technologies to include in higher resolution satellite imagery from unmanned aerial vehicles and to overcome this problem FAO with the Nature Conservancy has developed a manual that will be released soon that provides guidance and guarantees that the technical people can be trained in the use of these techniques and are updated, so in this manual as well case studies are presented on estimating mangrove extent extractor condition and change and they use a range of remote sensing derived sources that are focused on less than five meter spatial resolution which is very very high resolution and this includes historical aerial photography, current resolution optical and active satellite imagery and also unmanned aerial vehicles imagery, so we are in the decay of ecosystem restoration so it's crucial to locate the areas that have to be restored and to have estimates of degraded areas and as Daniel said before Indonesia has committed to rehabilitate 600,000 hectares of mangrove areas and Daniel and his colleagues published last year a very interesting article in Nature talking about the potential the opportunity of potential of restoration in Indonesia, so I used this map to see how we can track that some of these mangrove restoration opportunity areas can be monitored already with very high resolution imagery in terms of how they are regenerating for example, so in this image you can you can see using Nikfi planet which is about 4.7 meters using monthly mosaics and we can monitor the restoration of mangrove areas that occur within the restoration opportunity areas that Daniel designed in this or found in this article, so we can see the increase of the normalized vegetation index from 2017 to 2022 and track that the area is being like revegetated again, of course we will have to go to the field to check and validate that this is working. This is a very special contribution where I participated last year. This was an assessment done by the Ministry of Forest of Indonesia, part of the work that we did here will be a contribution to the World Manggrove's 2020 report that will be released this year, so in this project we worked with 35 staff from the Ministry of Forestry in Indonesia in a participatory approach and we assessed mangroves based on their experience and local knowledge. We conducted some dynamic trainings and tests and exercises to agree on the criteria on how to identify the mangroves and the assessment was done using collect earth online based on Sentinel-2 imagery, land set and very high resolution imagery such as digital globe or map box, so land use change was assessed for the whole country at the national level in the previous 1990 to 2000, 2000 to 2010 and 2010 to 2022. We identified drivers of land use change, also natural expansion, natural retraction, clear the mangrove clear for settlements or gained by restoration activities and this was a sample based area estimation which in contrast with maps and pixel counts allows for the correction of systematic errors and provides confidence intervals. So in the lower right picture for example you can you can see how this assessment can use for for mangrove restoration to evaluate mangrove restoration in an area where before we had the aquaculture and this assessment helps us to to monitor where processes of potential restoration or degradation are happening. The the last slide I'm showing here is from a project from Kenya. Kenya submitted his forest reference level to the UNF travel scene in 2020 and in a subsequent technical assessment they revealed that mangroves needed to be separated from from coastal forests as the country may be missing out on reporting aquedemissions from from this class. So through the Impress project that is a project funded by the UK government 2021 to 2023 the FAO technical team worked closely with the Kenya Forest Service team and another mangrove stakeholders and through a series of technical workshops they strengthened the national forest monitoring for for Kenya. So through the wetlands work stream a mangrove map was done for 2013 and was produced using optical remote sensing data from Landsat satellite series also using CPL and was publicly shared for review by the Kenyan mangrove stakeholders. The year 2013 was selected as a as a baseline and that will serve as the initial reference year for emissions. In order to classify these these mangrove areas the training data was semi-automatically generated from the overlap of several global mangrove maps and the map is provided at three meter spacing and has a minimum mapping unit of 0.45 hectares. These results serve as an opportunity for the key mangrove stakeholders in Kenya to build upon and further refine the mapping and emission factors which is very important and particularly in change detection and the emission estimation. So my presentation finishes here I will be very pleased to answer your your questions and participate in the debate. Thank you very much. Thank you very much Pablo and thanks for spending time very accurately like your high resolution satellite products. Our next speaker is Melisa Abdul Rahim. She's speaking from Berlin in Germany who is going to talk about how to finance in a blue carbon project or activities based on the experience the IUCN is saving in the past. Melisa, time is yours. Yes thank you Daniel. Are you able to hear me okay? Yep very good. Hi everyone good afternoon so my name is Melisa Abdul Rahim. I'm a marine program officer with IUCN and I'll be discussing our work on financing blue carbon projects and before I start I just wanted to thank Daniel for the invitation and thanks the other panelists for sharing the stage with me although virtual on my side but very happy to be here. So first to frame the conversation you know why are we talking about financing blue carbon projects and nature based solutions and what does that mean especially looking at private sector finance. There's been a lot of interest and really a need to work more with the private sector and attract more private sector finance because whether you look at it through the lens of sustainable development goals or through conservation or biodiversity need the bottom line is that there's not enough government and philanthropic money to tackle the various crises that we're facing whether the biodiversity crisis the climate crisis food security crisis etc. So there's really a big interest in accessing and leveraging private sector finance to support conservation and restoration of ecosystems and nature based solutions. We also hear this idea of a bankable project or a bankable nature based solutions meaning that the intervention whether it would be restoring a patch of mangroves or restoring coral reef would not only provide benefit to people in the environment but it would also be attractive to private sector investment and looking at the financial landscape which is the slider on the bottom right corner of the slide. In the conservation world in the research world we're familiar with the right hand side of this graph having grants donations to support projects basically money that does not require financial return on investment it doesn't have to be paid back but looking at the left side of the graph we start seeing other financial mechanisms that have market returns and are profit driven. Now the question is how can we leverage the philanthropic and government support to mobilize private sector capital and support more conservation and restoration activities. So looking at the work that we do at IUCN especially on coastal ecosystems we manage two funding schemes focusing on blue natural capital and blue carbon the first one the blue natural capital financing facility or BNCFF was funded by is funded by the government of Luxembourg with support from the UBS Optimus Foundation and it was established in 2018 so it's now in its second phase and it focuses on the development and sound investable blue natural capital projects. So what do we define by blue natural capital it's the natural capital found in coastal and marine environments also looking at what ecosystem services and benefits these these areas provide us. The other fund that we that we run is the blue carbon accelerator fund or BNCFF it was established by Australia as a dedicated funding scheme to support blue carbon restoration and conservation projects in developing countries and while under BNCFF projects do focus on blue carbon ecosystems being mangrove seagrass and salt marshes the focus is not just on the carbon sequestration benefits but also on all the other services that these ecosystems provide including climate change adaptation and mitigation benefit to biodiversity and livelihoods and really the aim of these two re-granting schemes is to help pave the way for private sector finance to support the restoration and conservation of these ecosystems. So collectively through BNCFF and BCAF we've supported 18 projects around the world with more to be added to this map soon. Under BNCFF we run calls for proposals based on particular themes we had one for example on green gray infrastructure which are the projects on the map in bright green and we're actually doing one on marine protected areas for which we're selecting winners as we speak. Under the BNCFF we have done calls for proposals targeting either early stage projects which are the projects in purple or more advanced projects which are the one in dark green and it's a bit difficult to see the short description for each project but almost all of the projects have in their objectives some aspect related to blue carbon credits or using blue carbon credits as one of their revenue streams in the business model and financial strategy that they will develop with the support that they get from us. And so given the general demand and for blue carbon credits and the fact that almost all of the projects that we do support include some element of you know blue carbon credits we want to make sure that we support projects that follow the high quality blue carbon principles. This is for one aligned with IUCN's values and standards notably the nature-based solution standard but it's also crucial to building trust in the quality of the projects in order to attract private sector investment which many have mentioned so far. I don't know if you're familiar with this publication here on the left but it calls for these five principles when conducting blue carbon projects. One, safeguarding nature, empowering people, employing the best information, intervention and carbon accounting practices, operate locally and contextually and mobilize high integrity capital. And the way we follow these principles is one in the review and selection process for BNCFF and BCAF. We use selection criteria such as environmental and social impact, path to financial viability and business plan, market level impacts, scalability, replicability, collaboration and active engagement with government authorities and stakeholders, governance and mentor in your rights which I'm sure we'll talk more about in a minute. Robust scientific approaches including carbon measurements reporting and verification. We also assess projects against the IUCN environmental and social management system and have the projects undergo financial due diligence. And while it's important to select projects that receive funds following these principles, we also want to make sure that we're measuring the impacts of these projects and so that's done in many ways but two examples here are, you know, measuring and quantifying key performance indicators. The most common ones that we see in the projects that we support include increase in biodiversity, hectares of mangroves restored or conserved, jobs created, carbon sequestered, marine protected area created or coverage increase and local communities involved. And one thing that we're starting to think about is how do we, how can we standardize these blue carbon, these KPIs across blue carbon restoration and conservation projects so that we're really able to truly compare and measure the impacts of projects. One way that we can measure impact is also by compiling ocean accounts that include comparable data on ocean environmental assets. So for example, the extent or condition of a mangrove ecosystem, economic activity such as the sale of fisheries product and social conditions such as employment. And we're actually doing this kind of as a pilot through the projects that we fund under BCAF and the more advanced projects. And we're doing this in partnership with the global account partnership. So the project developers will be able to have access to experts and help them gather the necessary data, including remote sensing data to compile the ocean accounts and produce credible information that would support the uptake and development of crediting methods including carbon credits and also inform potential funders and investors and really increase private sector investment in their projects or at least that's the goal. And to conclude, I just wanted to highlight some of the successes that we've had in the past through BNCFF as I mentioned it's in second phase. So we have a bit of reflection and lessons learned and successes from the project. So just setting the three projects here Blue U which is a project in Indonesia combining mangrove restoration and sustainable shrimp aquaculture was able to secure additional grant funds from the global EBA fund after they received support from BNCFF. Coast for Sea which works on sustainable seaweed aquaculture was able to secure an impact investor. And the Turniff Adolesustainability Association in Belize was able to secure a loan from the Sustainable Ocean Fund thanks to the support that they received from the NCFF. And I wanted to highlight this example from Belize and notably the business plan that they developed to finance the MPA that they manage. Their revenue model includes income from sustainable tourism, marine protected area, visitor fee, support from public agency grants, loans and also the future sale of carbon credits. So this is a great example of an organization that was previously fully reliant on grant funds or public funds and was able to develop a blended finance model to include carbon credits as one of the revenue streams and became interesting to investors and then was able to secure a loan. So if you're interested in learning more about the projects that we supported in the past and especially the business model that they've developed, I invite you to go to our website and I'll put it out on my last slide and check out the blueprint series which were developed by each of the projects that we've supported and we'll have much more to add as the currently supported projects wrap up in the coming years. And with that I leave you with my email and our website so happy to answer any questions. Thank you very much Melisa. Let's give her a round of applause. Certainly the issue of quality is not only on the carbon quality itself but many aspects related to financing so and also biodiversity. Tim you want to pick this up immediately and it's a challenge please. Right hello everybody. So the question is how do we get private sector funding coming into restoring things like mangroves? Well firstly let's get rid of the problem that there's no money out there. In fact you've got the exact opposite problem. You've got a huge amount of private sector funding looking for high quality restoration projects. It's a not a demand side problem, it's a supply side problem. There just aren't enough of these projects that are available in order to satisfy the marketplace. And to give you an idea of a scale of it I mean in according to Refinitiv in 2021 the private sector spent 900 billion dollars on carbon.  So why? Why is everything blocked? Why isn't it coming through? Well let's look at some of the major factors you've got to consider when you are trying to get a high quality carbon credit project. The first one is additionality. So if you clear an area of mangroves and expose the sediment like that on average you'll lose about eight tons of carbon per hectare per year. Now so the IPCC figures quoted in the carbon stock changes. If you do that over 25 years which is the length of one of these private sector projects that's 200 tons of carbon. Now remember you're probably not going to get more than about 300 tons of carbon for above ground, below ground and additional sedimentation over that time period. So that takes you up into a high carbon intensive type of habitat which allows you to bring down the price of carbon which makes it very attractive then to start getting investment in those sorts of projects. And incidentally I was hearing about the shrimp farming in Indonesia and we see that all around the world but on average when we check out these sites 40% of the area that's destroyed like the one you just see here and this one is actually in Honduras is not being used for shrimp farms or the shrimp farm has gone bust because they've been very unsuccessfully and actually producing the the shrimps or the fish from them. So the first thing to do is make sure the proper counting is done for carbon you would lose unless you took action restored the hydrology replanted that area. The second thing we should I mean I'll show everybody in this room knows this but you'd still be surprised at some projects start out without fixing the hydrology. How do you do a mango restoration without firstly restoring the hydrology and checking the sediment is correct before you can actually put your proper gills or plant your seeds in there. And this is a project in Honduras where we have literally hundreds of people from local communities digging channels and in fact if you go on to Google Earth and look up the Bay of Honseca you can actually see now on Google Earth the effects that these guys have had in restoring the mangrove restoring hydrology by hand. But a second way of bringing the making this competitive is to quantify biodiversity as well as the carbon uplift. And that's a real problem quantified by diversity because it's not as simple as carbon there's no equivalent to the carbon dioxide molecule. However if you think about the consumer price index which is a basket of goods and services that every country measures prices up at time one to two years later that gives them their annual inflation rate and we compare inflation rates around the world but every country has a completely different basket of goods and services. It doesn't matter because that's what they're buying so therefore that's what you're trying to quantify. But why not use the same approach for biodiversity? Why not have a basket of metrics that reflect the conservation objectives of what you're trying to achieve on your site? So if you're trying to restore a coral reef for example you might be looking at things like rugosity and coral cover and the species richness and abundance of herbivorous fish or viscivorous fish and the same for macroinvertebrates that have been commercially exploited. But if you're going to do a farm in Lowell and England and turn it make it rewilding not one of those metrics applies because there you're looking at soil biodiversity higher plants total arthropods reading birds etc. So what you're doing is you're fixing the metrics to reflect what you would see as a significant uplift if you came back and said okay well that mangrove looks a lot better than it did a few years ago or that reef is better for biodiversity. What's the basis you're making that decision on? Those are the metrics you choose. And by metric I mean taxa. So you take an entire taxa might be soil invertebrates or you know functional one like that or it might be a zoological one like butterflies and you measure them at time one and you're going to measure them at time two using exactly the same methods effort and survey techniques. Now when you do that you'll start off with a species list but not all species are the same value some are much more important than others on the basis of their rarity. So you grade each species on a five point scale five being the rarest one being the least rare and you use the local red list schemes for that. But when you come to re-measure you're not just looking for changing species richness. What you're looking for is an increase in populations that's 70% of biodiversity that everyone talks about that we've lost isn't species it's populations that have declined. So you're looking for an increase in abundance. Every species you assess its abundance on a five point scale. So the most abundant to a five the least abundant to a one. You multiply the abundance by the importance values for say breeding birds sum them up that gives you a figure at time one you do it again two or three years later that will give you another figure hopefully a higher figure not just because of extra species but because of population growth. But every one of those metrics will have also changed by a different percentage figure so you take the median value of that and multiply it by the number of hectares which gives you the number of biodiversity credits. Now that system is up and running you can now get it validated and verified through plan five or you will be able to from the middle of this year. Whereas developing a methodology that's very similar it's also on a percentage change in the value of biodiversity per hectare so we're gradually getting sort of congruence on the approach that should be used for quantifying biodiversity. So why not use it when you're doing something like mango restoration? I know it's not massive I mean if you're doing a native forest on land then probably 50 percent of your money had come from biodiversity and 50 percent comes from carbon. Here it's going to be more 90 percent carbon you know 10 to 15 percent biodiversity but it helps it helps bring down the potential cost of the of the carbon because you can also quantify the biodiversity. Now we need investors to make a profit and that's what we're all skirting around someone's putting money in they want that money back with a profit but can that be done fairly and that's the important issue. So the projects that we run at Replanet we require that 60 percent of the issuance price of the credits is paid to the local stakeholders that's the owners users managers of those sites but we're trying to get carbon credits high quality carbon credits for say 10 dollars if they're put onto the market today they're probably worth three times that you could resell them for 30 dollars and that means the local communities have been cheated they've only got 20 percent of the income so we put a requirement on any resale of credits that 60 percent of any profits over and above the issuance price or by the time the company retires them let's say the buying and resigning in a future years against the market price 60 percent is paid directly back to the communities that creates huge sums of money so when we're restoring a mangrove if you're say like take the Honduras example during two of two thousand two hundred hectares there the local communities on the base budget on the base budgets are getting 13 million dollars by the time you add the increase in price over time it's probably going to be closer to 40 million dollars and that's for that's for restoring 2,200 hectares of mangrove so you just think of the numbers of the investment that could come in into Indonesia given the amount of areas that they have available to them it's an absolutely enormous potential international investment there's an organization called the business association for scaling climate solutions got little company companies in it like meta and microsoft and google and coca-cola and salesforce so huge funds behind them they want to restore half the world's damaged mangroves the money's there it can be done and it can be done at the sorts of rates of pay that i'm talking about because even allowing for the fact that the investor only gets 40 percent of the uplift instead of a hundred percent of the uplift they can still make a profit so all the projects we're running we ask for something like a three to four million investment and then that's repaid in five to nine years and the investor gets a 15 to 18 percent IRR over the first 13 years of the project that's a commercial rate of investment and commercial rate of return so what you should be looking at is this is a fantastic opportunity not just to restore mangroves but to help some of the most impoverished people in the world because these are significant cash flows that can come that way okay i'll stop there thank you thank you very much team twi you want to pick up on the challenge of ownership that team underlining there because where the benefit should be shared who are you know have the right to get that um thank you very much Daniel and also thanks a lot for our great presentation earlier so i think that like we just have heard for presentation particularly from team in melisa's on the financial opportunities to change behavior of local people on the ground as well as providing financial incentive for people to protect mangrove through blue carbon but as Daniel said the key question is how are you going to unfold all of these activities on the ground when you have to dealing with government agency as well as multi stakeholder on the ground who have to really operationalize both international as well as national and also private sector requirement on how to do it so with our work as c4 as Daniel said we was very lucky to receive the funding from Norwegian government through the global comparative study on red plus as well as us aid through some program looking at different government structure particularly on blue carbon and the outcome in terms of socials and economic impact on this arrangement so my presentation today was really to share a little bit on the reality check on whether or not what are proposing by the private sector as well as different international initiative could be easily buried carried out in developing countries with a very complex situation and through both of our global comparative study on red plus as well as swan project it is very clear to us that for many government agencies as well as indigenous people on the ground it is very unclear for them on how to implement blue carbon project and it is not just only about technical capacity or the technical requirement but more importantly is about the key government questions for example who should pay who should be paid who benefit from this mechanism what to pay how to pay and particularly from the mv perspective not just only the carbon benefit but the non-carbon benefit on social outcome and also social inclusion particularly giving a special focus on local communities and indigenous people it is a key concern for many government agencies and indigenous people and local communities so in terms of the reality check team often come and and say to us that you know we really need to support the government particularly in many developing countries to accelerate the process to receive the blue carbon payment on the other hand at the country's level there was a huge concern raised by different government agencies and local communities that the process is too fast the process is too fast because you are trying to do things when the legal framework are not ready in place when it is unclear how the local communities would really benefit from it and what is the social safeguard mechanism pretending any negative impact on the ground and so why there is an urgent need and demand to accelerate blue carbon it cannot be rushed until some of the key underlying concern of both government agencies and indigenous people are not resolved and in here the key questions of poor benefit and legitimacy indices in making process e-key I think that with our global comparative study on red plus we documented since 1997 until now globally there are about 700 red plus project or forest carbon project globally only five percent of that project focus on main role which is giving a little bit of new opportunities at team state but also it explaining the reason why it has not advanced in blue carbon because from the government perspective only 22 percent of that carbon project referring directly the benefit has to go to local communities very small amount percentage of this project even put a clear requirement of free prior informant consent at a pre a key principle for this blue carbon project so I'm extremely happy to see Indonesian when they put you know the size selection and the key determination of the blue carbon project is really on free prior informant consent the other thing is when when team mentioned about 60 percent of the revenue should be dedicated to the local communities it is a brilliant idea and it's a very nice idea but it's not easy to implementing on the ground because who actually go in to have access to the 60 percent who actually in the communities we are talking about because the community themselves are not homogeneous and our global comparative studies show that there are a lot of elite capture and also inhomogeneous among the community so actually the targets of the group who are the poor actually not really benefit from that 60 percent so there is the whole new mechanism in terms of how you're going to structure that payment so that that 60 percent going to the most vulnerable group and coming in the name of equity there is also a legitimacy in decision-making process and I wanted to bring a case study with swam project that USAID funded in vietnam where we comparing the effectiveness of mangrove particularly is on blue carbon in vietnam since 1990 until 2022 under four different government regime one is led by government agency one is led by private sector one is led by local communities and the other one is led by donor and we're comparing in terms of the social outcome and what struck us the most is that all of this project that we are studying there is a lack of involvement from the local community perspective and the only project that stand out that are still ongoing right now is the one that is led by the communities so in here while we're talking a lot about private sector and also the donor driven initiative I would try and you know we really need to also take into account the community led initiative as well as the government led program and in here we have the government of vietnam have shown quite successful case study on the national scheme on payment for environmental services the other thing that I wanted to reflect on earlier come in from back Daniel on the high integrity so I guess that with the paulo presentation we hear about climate integrities on how we can actually measure the carbon outcome and again with him we hear about biodiversity which is also a very key component of you know high quality blue carbon credit but in here we also highlight the social integrity where you look at strong focus on socials um um dimensions of the blue carbon and on the one hand there are a lot of negative in saying that blue carbon might be a way to lead to transformation of change in the way how we go into cover mangrove but we should also underlie the fact that we also need transformation of change to enable blue carbon particularly if you don't resolving the issue of land tenure or social safeguard you know the rise and the participation of the local communities it's going nowhere in term of social integrity and it is a key message that we want to highlight what we also was able to document it with our global project through both gc red plus and also swam is that most of the blue carbon project right now is really gave a strong emphasis on project and I think that it has a huge challenges for the government agency particularly in developing countries because in this country you need to link to a broader transformational chain in the legal framework and also how you're going to cover the mangrove and also the fact is that you're addressing a certain specific project without looking at the addressing the key drivers of mangrove loss which is sometimes really associated to the national development agenda or political economy that are outside of the project side would not really have fun in addressing the mangrove loss so they did also another key message another key message that we wanted to highlight through our swam project is that most of the blue carbon project right now and we understand about the additionality of the project but the fact that most of the carbon project focus on reforestation and afforestation giving a very wrong signal to the government agency on not protecting standing mangrove and there is the key challenges right now that you know when we're looking at the local communities level they're questioning you know why why not standing for us so I think that the last point that I wanted to highlight is the role of science in this and why we have acquired a lot advancement in terms of technologies and data on blue carbon measurement we had very limited scientific evidence on the impact of blue carbon project on the social outcome and there is a key research gap that we want to highlight in order to moving our science advancement but also political discussion to moving blue carbon ahead because the key question that we were always being asked by the government agencies on every day is show us not just only the environmental outcome of blue carbon but also the social impact yeah so there is a key message that we want to highlight with our CFO where thank you thank you to be very inspiring and certainly will lead to hot discussion from the floor as well as from the participant online is there any participant online asking questions we can give the first opportunity for colleagues who are in the room is if there is any Evan yes it's coming thank you Evan Knottman with USAID first of all thank you for a really excellent set of presentations I really like the range covered from some of the technical issues to getting down into the private sector and then some of the governance and community issues really really excellent I'd like to maybe ask a question that's a little bit outside of what you've talked about but but really reflects where you are at GFOI and of course GFOI is the Global Forest Observation Initiative but as a as an initiative we recognized the increasing need and importance to start understanding the gray area between forests and mangroves peatlands and you know into the into the blue carbon I think in in your name blue carbon you're you're you're kind of talking about it as treating it separately on the blue side not necessarily on the forest side but I think part of what we what we also want to explore is understanding you know where is that line and how do how do we how do we draw it you know I think particularly with mangroves we've seen that there are these complex issues between what we call what what is determined a forest nationally what is how those you know you know rules around tenure in mangroves versus forest may be different certainly uses are different so there are these range of challenges between kind of when something is treated as forest or blue carbon and I wonder if any of the panelists would like to comment a little bit on on thinking about how to address kind of working on both the carbon finance but this broader finance kind of as as blue carbon versus kind of a subset of a forest carbon and where they've seen that happening or not I recognize it's a little bit outside of what you talked about but I think very relevant to the to the audience okay thanks thanks even Pablo are you challenged to response on that you are close enough to jfo I I mean I would say in my opinion there would be like two two perspectives one is on the on the field of carbon so but we can analyze ecosystems by the quantity of carbon that they store so so it's like people in mangroves the well recently the researchers know that for years but the huge amount of carbon that is stored and the importance of these ecosystems for for climate change and emissions and then I think there is another related with the ecosystems themselves so all of them are important we are working in the in the decade of ecosystem restoration and in terms of biodiversity mangroves are they have a huge biodiversity that has to be preserved it was super interesting what he said that that part of this remuneration should go to to biodiversity not only like working on carbon because and I recently read an article from our colleagues in in restore that said that productivity of the forest is enhanced by the biodiversity only if there is like a threshold of biodiversity in in that forest so I think that everything is related but I agree with you it's hard to um yeah to to draw this line dividing between forests mangroves speedlands it's uh it's complex rich and then uh uh yeah thank you uh for an excellent session and excellent presentations um I uh uh tweed you made a really good point and it's something that I've been trying to figure out um so first of all if you for those of you don't know me my name is Rich McKenzie I'm with the Forest Service I'm based in the in the Pacific I work on small Pacific islands and uh we've been thinking a lot about mangrove conservation in those islands and trying to generate potential funding for conservation and the issue there is not restoration because they're just they're not we don't have the problems with aquaculture it's development uh so hotels uh malls homes and so it's it's not additionality it's um prevention um uh so and and and when I've done the numbers so we actually have productivity estimates for mangroves in some of these Pacific islands and even if we use the upper you know if we can get 25 a ton of carbon per hectare and that's a big if the money is just isn't there to convince people not to build a hotel because they can make more money from that hotel and so sorry this is a long question I'm getting at but so the conversations we've had are then okay so looking at so Tim you mentioned looking at biodiversity and getting funding for that and so that's one of the issues on the table is okay so how do we look at other services that the mangroves provide and then generate funding uh to support this idea of conserving mangroves and I'm curious um so I'm this I'm getting in my question now so with carbon we have a method right we've got this one method so we can go out there and we can quantify carbon stocks is there a method to quantify biodiversity like a published method that we can go and use and then how do we pursue funds for those levels of biodiversity thank you rich um to we want to respond on the benefits and then team will be on the biodiversity accounting yeah so rich just thanks a lot for the reflection so actually like when melisa presented different financial model I do think that in the cases like in Vietnam in some areas and the case study that you said the blended financing mechanisms you needed because apparently if you're looking right now and we have the government of Vietnam representative here that he can command but I think that like if in the restoration area more likely that team said they would have attractive quiet strong financial incentive from the private sector but when you're referring to the standing forest I see the huge potential rows of national scheme like the one in Vietnam on the payment for forest environmental services are looking strictly speaking or from different national state budgets a location because they have a very limited budget they have to prioritize where the money from the state or through that national program paying for different type of environmental services would go to and at the moment if you're looking at it spreading the cat it seemed it didn't generate any additionalities or any environmental impact at the case of payment for environmental services in Vietnam so prioritizing this kind of uh finance mechanism and focusing on protecting the natural forest could be quite a attractive solution and giving the government agency as well as the funding would be used in an effective and efficient manner I just hand over to team then oh okay before I answer the biodiversity question can I can I just really clarify the difference between avoided loss and reforestation because there's a massive difference in prices so if you are doing an avoided forest loss project as you're talking about in the in the Pacific your best bet is going to be around about eight to nine dollars and that was before the Guardian article and those of you didn't see the Guardian article then you must be very few people out there who haven't seen it but what they were arguing was that most of these avoided forest loss credits are worthless and the argument they used for that incidentally was completely fallacious is if you have a forest and you're going to protect it because it's going to there's a deforestation rate of say two percent then you can protect half of that forest over 25 years because you had a lost half of it and so you monetize that half and the other half is your leakage zone so you're trying to protect that entire forest what they argued was once you've started on that project and you're paying communities to look after it and all that sort of thing if the forests around it also opt for red plus schemes or sovereign credits come in and the entire country adopts a zero deforestation rate their argument is well the people that invested first they've got lost all their credits that first project is now worthless because the background rate of deforestation is zero that seems to me to be a completely nonsensical argument because it would wipe out the use of avoided deforestation what they should be saying is you determine the point of deforestation at the rate that's sorry at the point at which you agree to fund the forest for 25 years so if it's two percent of that point then you keep it at that point for that 25 years that would allow that mechanism to still continue until we do get to zero deforestation but the reason I'm banging on about that is because it's made a big difference in prices prices are crashing so in terms of avoided deforestation I mean you're finding credits on the market now at two and three dollars so getting anywhere near 25 dollars in places like Fiji for example would be completely impossible for avoided deforestation so flip to the question you asked me though which was about biodiversity credits yes the methodology that I just described is open source it's published it's free to use for anyone to use that we've got something like five million credits already pledged we've got 25 projects developed around the world and a lot of other organizations using this technique because you can will be able to get it independently validated and verified by plan vivo from the middle of this year that's the only independent validation and verification system that exists and it uses exactly this methodology I'm talking about and you're also finding that that Vera's moving very close to the same type of methodology that that I that I just described but in the end you don't even need certification bodies because what are you going to do when you get a pile of data coming in I mean this time it's not like carbon you're not looking to see if the trees are on the ground you'll you want to know where the fish populations increase have the epiphytes increased etc and so what you're going to be doing is collecting lots of data digitally as much as possible so whoever's going to order that is going to get gigabytes of acoustic data and camera up data and meta-barcoding data now your average carbon certification body can't handle that so they're going to have to use academics so there's a there's a group of academics have now been funded by NERC and SCRC in the UK to look at the science behind the biodiversity credit they've got over a million pounds to do that and they're using some of that to set up an international body of scientists so leading experts in different taxa different ego regions that can be used for peer review so when you have a claim for a biodiversity uplift or say 50% you send your data to this organisation and they will do an independent peer review of it they won't give you a certificate but they will say yes you've got a 50% increase or no you haven't you've only got a 40% increase in biodiversity but it provides an independent peer review mechanism once you've got that in position that opens up all sorts of opportunities for blockchain for other organisations to step in and do the other parts of the certification process so the answer is yes to your question very quickly there is it's published I've got a load of cards with me anyone who wants one I'm happy to give you at the end of this if you email me I'll send you the link to it but there are organisations all around the world beginning to use that methodology thank you team after Aki you will have questions from the audience online please yeah thank you okay Rosengvist from Global Mango Watch I wonder if there are any guidance out there on restoration because it's within the Global Mango Watch and we are collaborating also with the Global Mango Alliance restoration is a big thing of course but there is a bit of a fear that there will be unregulated or a lot of replanting on mangroves in areas which are perhaps not best for replanting I mean replanting of mangroves is quite often not actually the most efficient way to restore mangroves team alluded to it in his presentation and I know that Daniel has said so too I mean you need to restore the hydrology you need to restore the soil so that the mangroves can regenerate themselves I mean you can help a little bit with the mangrove to get started but these kind of massive replanting projects are not always the most efficient ones and also one fear is that people will mistake mud banks for wasteland mud banks have a very important function of course for bird population etc and they are in many cases not really suitable for mangrove restoration so basically coming to my question is is there any say guidance on how restoration should be performed in the most efficient way because also if you have investors they would also of course like to ensure that the the restoration project is successful even after 10 years etc Pablo you want to comment yes I think I can take that one so because I also work with the task force on monitoring here in FAO so I work in that and this morning we had a session about ecosystem restoration so we have developed developed this framework for ecosystem restoration and the platform where we expect that we will be able to collect for now national areas of all ecosystems being restored and we are building a registry for that we have been nominated or charged with leading the target to development of the global biodiversity framework that is an indicator to estimate areas and the restoration in the world and within the firm going to your question there we also have the task of best practices so we are compiling a database of best practices in all types of ecosystems around the world so this will be freely available and fully accessible and the the aim is that is to to collect all this information that has worked somewhere and can can work in elsewhere with similar conditions so that's the that's the idea and going to the to the example on on the work where I participated in Indonesia we we spread these 3 000 plots over Indonesia we have data for 30 years of the change of these 30 years what what has been degraded what has been restored so we have a we are accumulating a bunch of data to to have to understand better when restoration is is is being produced what are the indicators and of course is is very difficult in the science of restoration to to know when the restoration is is complete we don't know it's very hard to to assess if the restoration she can see yes this is restored but during this decade we are really devoting to to restoration so yeah we will have a lot of information about that yeah yeah my my concern is just that I think that this kind of guidance needs to go out actually before the project starts yeah because you know I mean despite all the good intention it could actually have the opposite effect on certain ecosystems yeah so I think that that's a very maybe something that we can brought it bring up to the edge of why on the methods and guidance as well some some guidance on on the restoration of different ecosystems yeah I mean within the global mango watch on that website we actually also have restoration potential maps that club indicates at the rather core scale but which areas that are more suitable for restoration in terms of hydrology etc than than others so I think that there is a lot of information that could be used to to guide a lot of restoration projects but I think yeah basically my my my basic point is that there should be a little bit of caution and then not just kind of rush to to replant right so you're going to be brief team because we only have two minutes left very briefly I want to do the shout out for Jorge Herrera in Mexico who's done a lot of this advisory work for Central and South America the second point I wanted to make is one of the advantages of private sector funding is is it is it's results led so if you end up planting a load of propagules on on an area that they're not going to grow you're going to lose money by doing that and that means the investors want to get the the best people in in the country to help with designing that mangrove restoration thank you we have one or two questions online Vani will read it yeah okay questions from Dennis on one to dr. Novia many thanks for this presentation following the bond restoration challenge many countries develop a national restoration strategy I wanted to know if Indonesia has a national restoration strategy did that national restoration strategy include mangrove area did Indonesia develop a specific restoration strategy for mangrove ecosystem what were the steps in developing this specific restoration mangrove strategy are you with us please thank you thank you mr. Dennis on one pit and mangrove restoration agency and ministry of environment and forestry have prepared a roadmap for mangrove rehabilitation in this roadmap a mangrove rehabilitation strategies has been established there are five strategies such as one mangrove rehabilitation as a part of effort to increase welfare and the community the second is mangrove management as a part of climate change mitigation the third collaboration with various stakeholders in mangrove ecosystem to ensure the sustainability the fourth encouraging the strengthening of the legal protection on mangrove management and the last one is using various finance source Daniel I want to comment also to the person from global mangrove ports in Indonesia in Indonesia we also develop a terminology of rehabilitation including 3M in Indonesia we call memulihkan as a restore meningatkan as an improve and the mempertahankan is protection we are believe that if we just have if we are believe if we are only make a replanting without care about the mangrove intake mangrove we will have a problem because the the availability funding for rehabilitation in terms of replanting for Indonesia is very difficult this is very hard to do that that is why we are believe we need also to restore the intake mangrove that's why we we develop 3M including protection of intake mangrove that's why thank you thank you very much Panofiar so thank you for all the questions that has been raised in this session that's definitely enrich our understanding so before I conclude I just want to wrap up with intrigue by questions from Aki about map of restoration priority Pablo mentioned about this paper that we published early this year with my students and certainly for Indonesia case that Panofiar described we don't go beyond 200 000 we are identifying the loss in the last 20 years of about 200 000 and the cost of that loss is various and then in term of rehabilitation we try to use a number of proxies to help how to you know fine tune where this restoration should be done we have the map but this is a summary of what would be the driver of deforestation and degradation and we look at that at the end of that exercise we have the majority with high sorry the minority is high scenario meaning that there are very low very high opportunity but very minimum size of of degraded mangrove so you can do of our concentrate of focus on this relatively low or short small area but with high probability of success because one of the main issue as Tui indicated the tenureal system is much clearer in this place compared with those areas which are very low in term of success because the land title ownership is not very clear and that's the majority of that 200 000 is about 90 000 of mangrove degraded land so with that kind of exercise Pablo coming in and trying to look at into final resolution where they are and again the issue of social aspect including ownership will be a factor in to help restoration of mangrove carried out by the Indonesian government currently so we've been talking a lot about quality but suddenly quality of project has multiple facets here it's not only the quality of the carbon itself but also the way the project is designed and how they incorporate many aspects including social and the success is also measured by the impact in the social area especially the better behavior of people and well-being that's that's really the challenge even if the mangrove is back on the ground but people still poor and behaving like before that's not a good indicators of success and certainly ownership is very crucial to be identified to have this high success of high quality project secondly we need the help of remotely sense data but with final resolution to improve our understanding where this restoration area should be located to help reducing the cost and identifying this area that's very crucial and lastly I think we've been learning a lot about the issue of governance to ease experience with the GCS red it's very clear there that governing project is not just for the sake of project implementation but certainly the sustainability of that project after the activities and under the name of project is over so if it is like a one day event then if the project is over everybody will disappear that's that's not a good thing so with that I would like to conclude our session thank you very much for your contribution conversation in this room and also colleagues online thank you