Okay, I'd like to call this meeting of the city of scenic planning commission to order Test could get a roll call, please Mr. Conway here Dawson here Gordon here Maxwell McKelvie here Hamas here here Kennedy here and commissioner Maxwell is absent with notice. I Doubt it, but are there any statements of disqualification this evening? seeing none Eric you got anything you want to talk about for all communications? All right, seeing none. We will move on to the approval of the minutes so one Minutes is moving to the next agenda. Is that correct test August 17? And then we will have a vote on the all four of them all at once whether or not you were at the meeting We've been instructed by the city attorney to vote like as if you were there like which kind of makes sense You're verifying that in fact you weren't there So is that good one process? Do we have a motion to approve the minutes? Yeah, I'll move them in a second Second all those in favor And there are no opposed Great. Well that done Nice bit of typing there Tess. I know that's a lot of tape to listen to and thank you We'll now open the public hearing tonight. We have one item on the agenda. That's the housing element and I'm looking forward to hearing from staff Thank You chair Kennedy and planning commissioners. I'm Lee Butler director of planning and community development for the city and We're really pleased to present to you this evening the housing element. This represents a culmination of two plus years of work from our team as well as with our consultant team Kimley Horn associates and We have a Nez on the line here representing Kim Lee Horn we've also worked closely with a city council subcommittee on this effort and We've worked with Countless community members. I think we have close to 3,000 community members on our mailing list and had multiple workshops and heard from lots of housing organizations Yembee and Copa and done quite a bit of outreach on this in order to get it to you here today and of course I Have to mention that we have worked closely with the state department of housing and community development as well They have been very helpful throughout this process and responsive to us. We Have met with them many times. We are on our fifth submittal to them to get where we're at today and have One comment Remaining And we hope that the the current draft that we have submitted to them Resolves that last comment. So this evening. We are requesting that the planning commission makes a recommendation to the council that the council adopt the housing element and We are looking forward to the discussion. We have a presentation that Matt van Wa is going to pull up here and then and as will be taking the lead on that and This is going to the council on December 12th The state requires that we have a certified housing element by December 15th. So we are Making it right in the nick of time. We're hopeful like I said that With the the current the latest revisions that we have addressed the Hcd's housing and community development department's last comment which was looking for some additional Justification with respect to our sites inventory So with that, I will be feeling for other jurisdictions. Are we like ahead of the pack or behind? Can you tell? I Will say that other jurisdictions some other jurisdictions in the area in our region are Taking some different approaches with respect to having their council adopt the housing element And not necessarily having a full sign off from hcd And we have attempted to get hcd sign off And are attempting to get that in advance As as you can tell, you know, this is our fifth submittal to them. They they had initially 15 pages or so of comments Yeah, it was more and then we've talked with them and that got some revisions. So the first formal comment was 10 or 12 pages down from their initial so their first formal comment came after our second submittal to them and then We have whittled it down to our last was two pages right one one comment, but two pages and so We've done a lot of work and I expect that You know there it's challenging to get through on single submittals. I can say some of my former colleagues in other jurisdictions that had the due dates on January 31st of this year are still working on getting their housing elements certified and so This has been a ton of work We've we've put in a lot of hard work To to get to where we're at and we're excited that that we're really close, you know, we're not counting chickens But we're pleased to be in the position where we are where we believe that we can Get our housing elements certified on time and in as we'll talk to you about some of the benefits of that And some of the implications of not having it certified on time. So Yeah, any other questions before we dive in? Okay I'm gonna hand this over to to an S with Kimley Horn to do our presentation here. So I'm on slide to an S All right. Hi. Can you hear me? All right? Yes. Yep Thanks. All right. Well, good evening I'm tonight as we said, we're very pleased to present you with a final draft of this 2023 to 2031 housing elements I am very sad that I can't be here with you all in person tonight for this milestone meeting Get an injury, but I am thankful to be able to present in this capacity So thanks for for your flexibility and please do let me know if I cut out or if you can't hear me. All right So with that said we'll move on to slide number two with the agenda So we will first kick things off tonight with some background information on the housing elements as a refresher for you all and for the public and This will include an overview of all the community outreach that we have conducted over This past almost two years as well as major milestones hit We'll then summarize edits that have been made to the document since you last saw it mostly based on the HDD comments and public participation as well as staff input and We will wrap up with some information on the proposed safety element updates and where these policy documents fall with CEQA Before moving on to next steps Next week Everything's working great except that one big screen I'm working on it. I mean we can I mean I can sit up there. It would just be nice Okay, never mind. Yeah. Yeah, maybe I'll just sit over here Go ahead. I'm on slide 4 and s On slide 4, okay, perfect All right So as a reminder the housing elements is a required chapter of the city's general plan and it must be updated every eight years It identifies the projected housing needs by income category and in response establishes goals policies programs and Quantified objectives to address current needs and guide future growth The housing element is the only elements of the general plan to require Certification by the Department of Housing and Community Development or HDD for compliance with state laws There are a number of important benefits to having a certified housing element in a timely manner and Certification allows the city to access a number of state grants and alternative funding opportunities as Well, it protects the city from builders remedy projects But the city is not found to have a substantial a substantially compliant housing elements By the statutory deadline of December 15th builders remedy projects may be submitted And these projects must meet state requirements such as Designating at least 20% of units to low income But all of the city's zoning and general plan standards can no longer be enforced on those projects Given the city's 20% low income inclusionary requirement This would mean that all proposed projects of any height or density would have to be approved As we'll go over in the presentation the city has been coordinating with HDD since the first draft submittal and The last draft letter as we had mentioned received only one comment And once that's been addressed and found to be substantially compliant by HDD We'll be on on our wake certification So we are right on track moving on slide 5 The central part of the housing element is detailing how the city can facilitate the construction of housing units at various affordability levels to the amounts prescribed in the regional housing needs allocation or arena So for 2023 to 2031 the city was allocated a total of 3,736 units to plan for In perspective the city's fifth cycle arena was 747 total units and This increase in housing target is the state recognizing the underproduction of units statewide for some time Those Santa Cruz have been doing its part to help achieve housing production goals By producing more than double the fifth cycle arena units with over 50% of those units having below market rate affordability The city is actually one of about 6% of all jurisdiction in the state to have met the rena targets for all-income categories And the city is one of only 30 jurisdictions in California to receive the states per housing designation Which recognizes jurisdictions that have policies and programs in place to better facilitate housing for all-income levels the answer slide 6 You'll now see on this slide the various sections that make up the housing element It starts with the first main the two main chapters, which are the introduction and the policy plan The policy plan establishes the policies the programs and the objectives that will be implemented to help the city achieve its goals Which will go over in a few slides And the elements is then comprised of a number of appendices Starting first with a summary of all of the community engagement as I have gone into the updates and all of the public comments submitted and responded to throughout We then have appendix B which relies which reviews the fifth cycle housing element programs for accomplishments and areas of improvement Appendix C assesses housing needs based on the city's demographics and existing housing stock Appendix D conducts a fair housing assessment which helps to guide the affirmatively furthering fair housing or AFFH programs in the housing plan for us to plan for future housing growth equitably Appendix E assesses all potential constraints to Housing development including markets environmental and governmental constraints Appendix F outlines all of the housing related resources available to Santa Cruz residents Appendix G then identifies all candidate housing sites with the ability to meet the city's Reno and Lays out the exact strategies that the city will be employing to continue to facilitate housing development and then lastly we have Appendix H which is the glossary of housing terms and acronyms slide seven As you see here the city has hosted a number of events and opportunities to gather community input and feedback throughout the entirety of the update process It's included community workshops Surveys tabling at community events including the lower ocean and beach flats cleanup events and the Nueva Vista community resources through distribution events We also held meetings with stakeholders the City Council housing element subcommittee Planning Commission and City Council And in spring 2023 the city hit its first major milestone with the release of the first public review draft for community input And as Lee was saying earlier, there is nearly 3,000 people that have signed up for the email alerts about the housing element and around 350 comments have been submitted and responded to by staff since April 2023 and this really goes to show the Broad engagement efforts that have been undertaken by the city throughout the entirety of this process next slide eight The following the first public review draft the submit the city submitted the first draft to HD for an initial 90-day review Which was then followed by two subsequent 60-day reviews With each the middle HD did provide the city with preliminary technical assistance and mid review resubmittals Last month HD provided the city with a second official letter containing just one comment to be addressed The city has since addressed the comments posted the revised draft for public review addressed a few public comments that were submitted and then submitted the draft to HD this past Tuesday November 14th and given tonight's hearing the upcoming City Council hearing on December 12th and Upcoming statutory deadline on December 15th the city has requested an expedited review from HDD and This is dependent on the state's current workload and capacity But our reviewers have agreed to expedite the process to the extent possible Next we will move on to the contents of the housing elements and the revisions that we've made You'll take us to slide 10 As I mentioned earlier the policy plan chapter Details the communities goals policies and the objectives relative to housing production rehabilitation protection and assistance for all residents and Santa Cruz The policy plan establishes seven main goals which provide a general overview of policy priorities None of these overall goals have changed since coordination with HDD started But we did want to go over them ahead of talking about the policy changes So to start off we have goal one which is to facilitate housing production that meets the presence in future housing needs of Santa Cruz residents Will choose to provide an increase and protective supply of housing affordability to extremely low very low low and moderate income households Goal three is to provide accessible housing and supportive services that provide equal housing opportunities for special needs populations Including the unhoused and those at risk of homelessness Goal four is to provide increased opportunities for low and moderate income residents to rent or purchase homes Next slide Goal five is to improve housing and neighborhoods throughout Santa Cruz and in designated Target areas while protecting residents from displacement Will fix I am is to seek to combat housing discrimination under historic patterns of segregation and Lift barriers that restrict access to foster a more inclusive community and help achieve racial equity and fair housing choice Goal seven is to fulfill the city's housing needs while promoting an environmentally sustainable Compact community with clearly clearly defined urban boundaries That take into consideration the existing and potential impacts of sea level rise and climate change particularly on underserved communities slide 12, please Over the summer and fall of 2023 nearly all policies and objectives saw edits and further refinements based on staff review and feedback from HDD The subcommittee and the public Everyone's highly new policies were added and that includes 1.3 g on aligning development standards 1.3 h on agenda requirements for conforming projects 2.1 I on supporting development of faith-based sites 3.1 d updating community care licensing licensing requirements and 3.7 c off peak seasonal housing coordination Many of these were to satisfy HDD requirements, but some were added based on public feedback Another example of policy changes based on the public feedback is the addition of extremely low income housing as an affordability category to support And this was added based on public comments at the April 25th City Council meeting And another example is increasing the metric of objectives 4.1 a regarding tenant assistance With a goal to provide renter assistance to what was originally 50 households And was then increased up to a hundred households based on public feedback slide 13 I've mentioned most of the policy plan revision stemmed from HDD direction to make policies and objectives Be as concrete and as measurable as possible in some places this meant adding Quantifiable metrics such as for policies relating to housing rehabilitation HDD wanted specific numbers So the city coordinated with code the code enforcement division to estimate the number of units in need of rehabilitation citywide In many other places this meant removing non-committal language such as explore or consider And instead providing specific commitments timelines and quantifiable metrics HDD granted flexibility for some policies where it was needed, but in the end about a hundred policies were revised in some way Over the the summer and fall Efficient and this this task was made possible through efficient timely coordination with the subcommittee as well as with city staff HDD also requested further details on policies related to affirmatively furthering fair housing asfh and So in addition and timelines and metrics asfh topics, which you see Bulleted on the screen and and Geographic targets were provided for all of the objectives that HDD deems to be directly related to meeting asfh goals and Each asfh objective states which topic areas it falls into The one way of affirmatively furthering fair housing is to support housing development in high resource areas High resource areas are shown to be are shown by research to be strongly associated with positive economic educational and health outcomes for low-income families Which are typically in areas of higher income high-performing schools and have fewer environmental hazard The HDD required more information showing how these asfh objectives had geographic targets within the city in Part to allow for more housing opportunity particular low-income housing opportunities in these higher resource areas and Those you can see the the analysis relating to this in the asfh Appendix slide 14, please Next up in our discussion are the candidate sites Based on council direction HDD feedback and further staff review Candidates sites were removed and revised And some new ones were even added in since the first the middle to HDD back in May It is a noted state Prohousing designation best practice that the sites inventory include units Over the Rena to help ensure that Rena targets can be met should some of the sites that we've identified not develop as projected HDD specifically recommends that the sites inventory include a buffer of about 15 to 30 percent and The lower income and moderate income categories as you see here in the bottom table our final table and Both have a 25 percent buffer over the Rena target while the above moderate has a buffer of a 74 percent These buffers are lower than the initial submittal as you see in comparison to that table up above But they are still on the higher end of HDD's recommended range So some of the reasons for the decrease in units had to do with removing parcels that were no longer deemed suitable And removing pipeline projects that had begun construction or with true applications But the main two reasons for the changes to how units were counted It were for how units were counted in the downtown expansion area and the UCSC campus The first draft of the housing element included the downtown expansion area as a whole planning area rather than individual properties so given the uncertainty around the ultimate residential capacity associated with any Resonings of this area and a desire to not include any rezoning in the housing element staff opted to take a more conservative approach and use the base densities of Qualifying larger sites in this area to include in the site's inventory calculations So this meant including exactly five hundred seventy two units and as the south of Laurel area the renamed south of Laurel area Rather than the council supported total of one thousand six hundred units as per the anticipated rezoning or Even the one thousand and forty seven units that represent the current base density of the whole area Safely the disc conservative estimate and the development in the in this area Above this number of units will plan and plan role in meeting the arena targets Both for the upcoming cycle and in the future The second area of reduction for units was the UCSC campus UCSC had two large house two large New housing projects that will be developed during this housing elements planning period But the Census Bureau deems dorms and student housing to be group housing and cannot count as an individual housing units Housing on campus can only count towards arena if it's available to non-students such as faculty apartments or couples units for graduate students The initial version of the sites inventory included more proposed campus housing But further review by HCD determined that some units would not be able to count as as units The city does not want The city does want more student housing units to count as per arena So there is a policy An objective in the policy chapter Specifically objective 1.4 feet and for the the city to Communicate with HCD and state representatives to encourage the state to recognize non-traditional types of housing units for arena purposes But that did reduce the number of units that we are counting Through those two projects in the housing elements slide 15 The sites inventory. So you see here on the screen the the final Strategy summary with all of our different strategies and the numbers under each income category And these are broken into two sections. We have first the pipeline projects and the projected housing The pipeline projects include projects that have been proposed or entitled But that I have not yet been counted in a previous annual progress report on Housing for HCD and this is how rena numbers are tracked With timing of building permits being the determining factors for this purpose Projecting housing detailed sites throughout the city that have the potential To develop with housing in the coming eight years and this includes projected adu development based on past permitting trends Vacant residentially zoned lands and infill opportunities throughout different areas in the city And as I mentioned towards the bottom, you'll see that south of Laurel area Which is what has replaced the downtown expansion plan we previously had We do need to point out that the affordability breakdown the sites inventory is not necessarily Correlated with what will get built or a projection of the city's housing priorities It is rather an output on paper based on these is based on assumptions The unit count by affordability are not allowed to consider the city's inclusionary ordinance or the use of density bonuses So while the percentage of above moderate income units is higher than the lower and moderate The affordable units created by the above moderate developments through the inclusionary ordinance are not taken into account And these affordability projections also do not directly consider a hundred percent affordable development That is often facilitated through the work of city staff and nonprofit partners Even though that work was successful in the fifth cycle So for instance during the fifth cycle out of approximately 1715 units counted towards the arena 53 percent were affordable So with the city's inclusionary ordinance and with these and future 100 percent affordable projects More affordable units are expected than was included here in this table This is a a conservative assumption All right, so next we have the safety elements and sequel portion If we could move on to slide 17 So the housing on an update process has triggered a requirement to update the city's safety elements and Specifically to address climate adaptation and resiliency as well as potential flood and fire hazards The safety element update is far from being as complex as that of the housing elements and so it is instead and a proposed red line and Edits on the city's existing documents slide 18 The housing element is exempt from further sequel review beyond what is a common sense exemption And impacts of the proposed cycle housing elements and the associated changes to the safety elements Are covered by the city's environmental impact reports that was certified by city council for the 2030 general plan and Future residential development projects will be reviewed pursuant to a sequel when required I'm concurred with other permitting and regulatory requirements the next steps If we could move to slide number 20 So they have mentioned I'm the revised draft housing element has been submitted to HCD and This week with red lines addressing HCD's last remaining comments HCD has until January 12th 2024 at the very latest to return comments or a letter of compliance But as I mentioned staff house require has requested requested an expedited HCD review prior to The December 12th council hearing and the December 15th deadline We are in communication with HCD currently To make sure that to the extent that they can we get a response by by then when the housing elements is first found in statutory compliance by HCD and then adopted by city council the The Santa Cruz six cycle housing elements will be deemed certified So with that on slide 21, you'll see staff recommendation is For a motion to recommend that the city council adopt the 2023 to 2031 six cycle housing elements and associated updates to the safety elements of the general plan Finding that the changes are exempt from sequel under section 1506 one E3 and that the changes are covered under sequel through a reuse of the 2030 general plan EIR and With that that concludes our presentation on slide 22. You'll see maps contact information as well as the link to the Housing element for anybody in the public who might look for for some more information. Thank you Excellent Thank you, the end of a long and rich process any questions for staff from the commissioners was Was the I think it's extremely low Income housing designation is that a new category or is it An existing one and what are the what are the markers for it? Yeah, good question So it has been in a like a known category for some time What's changed is that the state has passed legislation that requires Cities to now track it as part of their housing element. It's not an official Column yet in a housing element document if we received Extremely low-income ELI units if they were built somewhere they would still fall under that lower income category and be lumped with low very very low same Segment of the income brackets though that you're saying or it's correct Yeah, they would be part of the very low count Except that we would be able to have tracked them and in our next housing element report our annual report in April We would be able to tell hcd that there's x number of ELI units as part of this very low And eventually that might become its own separate category as well, but right now we've only received direction to track it Thank you Extremely low-income though is defined either in our code or state code already. Yes, right? What it what percent is it? It's zero to 30. Yeah This is not not to quiz your memory I'm so proud to be one of the 30 pro housing jurisdictions. Do you remember how many jurisdictions that's out of? That is out of 540. Oh, you're amazing. Thank you Count County and cities Okay Any other questions? It's actually the Same percentage as there's 29 current cities that have formerly received the the arena Target have formally met the rena targets and as of April 15 Santa Cruz would have become the next one So they're probably around 30 as well 6% This makes me very proud and I really think we should have a big parade for staff everyone who's worked on this because that's amazing, right? And we hear a lot of complaints is mainly what we hear. I'm sorry. All right. So at this point I will open Julie sorry I have a question that has served a long lead in so sorry about that. No worries And this is regarding expiring units and I'm going to refer to charts that are on D slash 54 and D slash 55 So first of all, thank you for the charts Because I think they illustrate how incredibly expensive it is to subsidize rents And also versus replacing units all together So what you show in some simple math is two point million dollar annual subsidy for subsidizing and Which comes up to a twenty eight million dollar replacement cost? Right, so it's worth noting that if we just look at those numbers and Assume that the money was available to subsidize those units for in ten years that Rent would equal the replacement cost. It is just staggeringly expensive to subsidize rents to be affordable at Very low and extremely low income ranges So that simple math exercise what caught me about it is that it really overlooks the real problem Which is that the money that is needed for that replacement cost number? Which is what it would take to build the units is tough to put together all by itself But in order for those to be those units to be affordable You have to both put together a big huge pile of money to build it And then you also have to have long-term commitments for operating subsidy So the monthly subsidy cost so All of that is by way of saying it is really horrible to lose subsidized units and I remember Believe it or not. It seemed like such a long time when the SROs downtown got their 30-year restrictions And well, you might remember but there's not a lot of us do remember but it went so fast And what I'm really wondering is those restrictions are expiring right now I'm wondering and I know that the city doesn't have the money to leverage a long extension For for those and or a lot of tools available and that but I'm wondering if you are managing to find You know tools to extend those Affordability commitments, and maybe Ms. Wolf might have her fingers a little bit deeper into those pots Yeah, welcome. Yeah, and thanks for coming. Good evening everyone. I'm just I could do it I'm the housing manager here at the city and nice to be here so as far as Housing preservation, we're definitely looking for funding at state federal levels for whatever we can find We have had properties that have decided to like figure out how to refinance so Mission Gardens is an example of that most recently so That's what we're mostly been trying to work with Owners who want to try to remain affordable and how to either bridge their gaps Housing authority vouchers obviously really help And with the move to work program which I know is is just getting going with the housing authority That's another opportunity to try and have some flexi money to Help bridge gaps for people who are or properties who want to stay affordable So in particular It is there anything I know Mercy housing is has a you know a lot of reasons that they would continue with El Centro But it would be a real shame to lose the Palomar And I know that they have a really high percentage of housing choice vouchers there But there's the bigger that gap is the harder it is to fill yeah Mercy housing is very dedicated to keeping any units they have as affordable in in the town and you know all over Estates they have several. I mean they're huge but Palomar is not and It's this is where there's it's tricky to It's on a case-by-case basis working with the owners of these properties to sort of see if they're not interested in maintaining Affordability would they be interested in selling and then us trying to you know that the city trying to figure out if there is someone who would be willing to Step in as that affordable Preservation property manager or owner So the hard part is yes case-by-case basis and if we can find funding to Again move to work is a another shining example I would I would say it's just as great as the pro housing designation So, you know, we're doing a lot of a lot here in the community to try to work together And pool our resources Okay, great. Thank you. Yeah, really glad to hear all of that So like the mayor can mean that task force to look at a housing bond Like is that the kind of money that would contribute to this process or is it totally separate? I mean there it could be yeah It depends on how the money is designated as an eligible use You know, we could look at there's local housing trust fund money the national housing trust fund I mean, there's so many sources that are coming out It's partially is trying to have enough staff to go to try and pin down what can work and again having an owner Who wants to move forward? So all of those together are our pieces that we're looking at and trying to solve the puzzle Do you have priorities or that you can share with us of the projects that you're hoping to retain? Well mission gardens is the is one of the ones that we just I think it went to council last month Or I think it was last round and that one is gonna be staying affordable There are ones like Palomar where again, it's not it's not an owner that it has a mission to have affordable housing So it's you know, we're kind of working our way down the list Unfortunately, St. George is another one of those that is a hard one to crack on in terms of trying the owner is you know, not a Not a pro affordable housing as far as I understand so I or just not familiar with it It's a it's a new owner. It's transferred as recently. I can talk to you more later But um, but we are kind of exploring our you know our possibilities and opportunities as we as we see there are expiring units and especially if someone's coming to us and asking for a loan consolidation or a refi We're then asking for extended affordability Okay One thing I would add Jessica your team correct me if I'm wrong you monitor that list of upcoming affordable deed restrictions and Seek to proactively address those I know there have been instances where that's the case And so I believe that you do that on a regular basis And so see you nodding your head and confirming that is the case So I just wanted to call that out to the commission's attention that it is something that the team really takes seriously because You know, it's it's an important component of Our our toolkit is is not just the production of housing But the preservation of affordable housing as well And there are a lot of challenges with that and when we have a willing property owner They there are some success stories, but there are some other instances where unfortunately we're not able to keep those in indeed restricted affordable Status great. Thank you Christian In an effort to build more housing units, I'm wondering if you can explain how We consider the set the type of units that Meet those goals meaning that what we see a lot of you know For affordability is much smaller units that aren't that are maybe considered affordable but don't necessarily meet some of these other kind of Requirements that we see for affordability like families then so If you could just explain To us in the world Yeah, so so what we're looking at is Again different funding funding sources have different requirements Part of it also is where are we trying to build out of housing? What's going? So for give you an example for affordable housing tax credits Part of it is you get scored Competitively based on how close is the school? How how what's the walking distance to the supermarket? How close is the transit station? And so based on some criteria it can kind of start to take you down a rabbit hole of like Okay, this would probably be a good family property versus this would probably be a better property for supportive services I will say that we're doing a ton Based on school district You know pushing for more family housing to do a lot of family housing downtown So sorry, I'm losing my voice And a Pacific station south is a family project family Reynolds goes all the way up to three bedroom units Same with Pacific station north, which is gonna be starting construction here in February and that's 128 family apartments And then cedar street is also a family family apartment and that's just a couple blocks down So we definitely are doing a lot of family rentals here in the downtown Because it's so rich with resources here and again scores really well for tax credits. I Would I would just add that We have been seeing a lot of smaller units as part of our Private development projects and so when we have the opportunity to have Jessica and Bonnie and their team work on 100% affordable housing projects like those that Jessica has mentioned that's where we do have that opportunity to get some of those larger units that the At the affordable levels that the market isn't producing Some on the commission will recall the Pacific Front Laurel project that's you know finishing up now You know that dedicated land to the city and on that right now is the project that is Eight months away from completion or so and May time frame a junior. Okay. We had some PG knee delays, right? That's that's one of the projects Jessica was referring to so so we're getting land dedication and then instead of getting fewer smaller units in the Private project. We're getting larger units. We're getting deeper levels of affordability We're getting more units and in that instance We're also getting D&T since Santa Cruz Community Health Foundation that are providing low-cost medical services to the To the low-income residents that are residing there and so, you know, there are a lot of wins there I think I I mentioned that most of the the Projects that we're seeing have been small units and I think that has been in part response to the demographic Changes and trends of smaller households in general not just here, but throughout the country actually we're seeing smaller households and I also have Started to hear some interest from developers of saying hey We're getting a lot of these other product types and so maybe we should be looking at some larger units So, you know, we'll see how that plays out. I think the answer is in part We need them all right and so, you know, if we're getting affordable units, we're happy about that We recognize there's also a need a real need for family units and so It's great when Jessica's team is able to to develop those projects and We've got three of them in the works right now between Pacific Station South Pacific Station North and the Library affordable housing project as well as some others like the Cedar Center project that was privately initiated Thank you Yeah, that's cool to see the church property is like as a separate category I don't remember if that was around, you know last round, but Boy, have the churches done some work for affordable housing in this town and county in the last housing cycle Any other questions? All right, then I will open the public hearing in case anybody Okay, yeah, okay. Thank you. Yes, please ask a question There's no public hearings. There's no risk to get to it. Okay. Awesome. I Just had a quick question about so in the policy plan There's three point one that talks about I believe I get the right wording here Creating low-income or I'm sorry create housing for low-income families with children and persons with disabilities and then right under that is 3.1 a and it's about child care opportunities in conjunction with affordable housing development and that just kind of piqued my interest and I'm just curious if There's been sort of any coordination among staff about securing Some of the grants that are available at the state level or anything that has just been Researched in terms of securing funding to do those types of things or Other types of incentives, I guess through the city that is there anything that we offer or Just and I guess where my head's at is that you know as we are meeting these pretty lofty rena goals and there's going to be and one of you know some of the objectives that we're Serving are to create more housing for families and all the associated services that are going to go with that In terms of working families with kids And so I know that for me when I go around looking for child care a lot of them are at you know people's homes and I guess As we build up a little bit more in the urban core just creating Finding ways to create more opportunities for people to just you know drop their kids and go to work So I guess I got a little off track there But I guess my question is are we looking at grant opportunities and have we found any and Do we offer any incentives? I guess through the city to do things like that In multi-family projects or affordable projects or anything like that. Yeah, thank you. Thank you question. Sorry Yeah, so this policy 3.1 a of the subjective is in large largely related to our The library mixed use affordable housing project We have a child care impact fee with the city that goes towards this fund and that first pot of money is Going to be is going into that project to provide that that child care facility in conjunction with that housing project so future future city projects as well when this pot of money is available again might also be able to use this That that's one key way that the city is trying to achieve This policy objective in particular you have anything else to add on that. Yeah, I would add that Child care facilities oftentimes have specific requirements with respect to Access to outdoor spaces and so forth and so particularly as we're building some of these more urban projects with you know, ground floor commercial and Residential above there isn't always going to be that outdoor space available Unless you're thinking about that from the very beginning and that was one of the benefits of the library affordable housing project is we were Looking to integrate that in from the beginning and so as we proceed as Matt mentioned with our child care impact fee We may have opportunities to help incentivize Future projects to incorporate a child care facility and in fact After we dedicate the first batch of funds to the affordable housing library project The next step is to do a child care needs assessment And so that needs assessment will help inform how we want to spend the money that we're getting from that Child care impact fee moving forward and that can also identify that there are certain levels of demand in specific areas and That could then help us target those funds towards specific projects and say for example If we've we've got a affordable housing project coming in at one location and we know that there's a demand there We can pitch that to the developer even a private developer and say hey Look we can help subsidize the child care portion of this If you incorporate it into your design and so I think to the extent we are able to Engage with those applicants early. We stand a better chance at getting that and and the child care impact fee is just one way that It can sort of sweeten the pod and encourage those developers to take that route Great. Yeah, no that it's good to know that there's a somewhat of a dedicated funding stream and then whatever is available, you know at the state to Secure would be great And I the only reason I ask is because one thing that's coming up a lot in Seneca City Schools There's been talk of like this 20 to 30% drop in enrollment over the you know next 10 years But then some sort of assessment was made and people are like well, wait a minute actually we're adding You know 3,800 housing units that may really seriously impact, right? The number of kids that are just in Santa Cruz that need those types of services So just trying to think super far ahead on that and it's good to know that you know that outreach is Being thought about before as plans are being developed on specific projects. So thank you All right, everyone good. I'll now open the public hearing in case anyone wants to come Anything see nobody will move along I'm ready to hear motion on this if somebody's ready to offer one Fisher Dawson Yeah, um task. Could you bring up that language? I sent you please I'd like to move to recommend that the city council adopt the 2023 2031 six cycle housing element and associated updates to the safety element of the general plan and staff recommended findings with the Following proposed language changes. I think it's going to be oh, I guess we could see them there so This is you know as everybody said this is a lot of work. There's a lot in there. So instead of I thought that maybe the best way to kind of go through these things would be to Just put up this language and attach it to the motion and see what we can do with it a couple of these are just kind of clean Up clarification a couple of them are substantive. So we can go through them one at a time I I just want to say that I did quite a bit of research and looking what other Jurisdictions do related to the state requirement to for it's a state law that requires us to replace affordable units, right? Like that's a that's a law that exists It's up to the jurisdiction how they want to proceed with that in relation to the inclusionary requirement And there are several jurisdictions and San Francisco is one of them I poached those language from them mostly Comments at this point wouldn't have to go back out for public comment and back or is that the process I can put it I can put a motion on the floor and then see what people want to do, right? Could we just talk about it? Yeah, I mean No, I'm just trying to lay out my and and then I have to see if I can get a second, right? Well, I want to I'd be really interested in talking about them one by one anyway. Yeah, well, we can split them out We can do whatever we'd like really interesting. They look really good. Okay, so Yeah, so that that was my logic on the first one It's up to the municipality how they want to deal with that requirement The second one is just It's they're really good, but they're just so fast. I'm trying to okay in addition to compliance with the inclusionary requirements Set forth in the municipal code I'm not sure how does this change? Just real quick example would be And let's just ignore whether this math would actually work out, but if I had a 50 unit Development that I wanted to tear down and make a hundred unit development. I know there's all let's just go with this thought experiment and in that 50 unit development there are four affordable units that were confirmed and Staff jump in if I go off track here and I want to make that 100 units and the future Instead of providing 20 units for 20% you would I would need to provide 24 units because I Just I get it I didn't get it when I was looking at it backwards and upside down Yeah, so what you're saying is that you want to take the replacement units that are confirmed affordable and Those are already there and the inclusionary units are on top of that. Absolutely It's about preservation. We kind of we're talking about that a little bit Okay, the other one's just kind of a little bit of clarification and just throwing out something we've all talked about a lot Such as a navigation center. It doesn't commit us to that. It just brings it up as a possibility The next one is holding the university accountable We've all had many many discussions about this enrollment level And then the last one again is just a little bit of clarification in language So I will just stop there and see what folks Want to do with this for the one split it out. They want to second it want to have more discussion I have one comment on it. So I think these are great. I do think that the I mean the It's just a bug a boo with student housing, you know it's always been so frustrating and I know I've been Wrestling with this one for a long time and the explanation is always the reason that you don't count Student housing and dormitories is that it's not their permanent residence, right? It's that so the town is impacted because students have to be somewhere And but dormitory housing doesn't count as housing. So it's just sort of a con conflict of purposes and So I agree with the intent. I don't know that I agree with including it in here. I Don't wonder if it gets us anything I Think it just speaks to what the staff said about moving removing non-committal language. It's just basically In what is like insist? Yeah, the university provide. I mean, what are our levers? It's I mean, I'm not sure how to I mean, that's a whole other meeting, right? I mean we've Language really I'm talking about it so I think it's just trying to put a little bit more I Agree with you Julie that it it's not really teeth per se But we all a lot of us know the history of the potential legal actions around this and the ongoing discussions So I mean again, that's probably a whole other meeting about how we would do that But I wasn't trying to bring up the how we would I was trying to look for some language That would be useful to do it. Do you have a comment? I have a question that relates Beats question because I feel like then it leads into something else, which is If we change this language What does that mean for us meeting the deadlines? Specifically, I just as we're discussing this I want to know and then I have another question after Thanks for that question So in all likelihood any substantive Comments any substantive changes would need to be recirculated Non-substantive changes Would not necessarily need to be recirculated. I mean we we can make edits and There are Alternative approaches to this however so if there were a substantive change that the Planning Commission wanted and that the City Council ultimately wanted there could be for example a certification of the document with direction to come back and Make amendments or refine language at a future date. So so there could be a way in which we Potentially, yeah, I mean it would be kind of a multi-step process That's how I would see the options playing out. I'll turn to Matt or to and as to see if You have alternative thoughts on that Would you agree with that approach? Yeah, I would agree I Think that the only one that's potentially substantial is the first one and That's really That's that it's Really belongs in 24.16 Is that that is that the appropriate place to address that is it the housing element I can't and I'm trying to remember the language You probably just recently read 24.16 because I haven't looked at it for a little while so 24.16 has Our inclusionary requirements our density bonus requirements our replacement housing requirements We have we have replacement housing requirements in addition to the state in some instances We are more strict and other instances the state is more strict And so we have recently added within the last couple of years Clarification that whichever one is more strict the state or the city that shall be applied And and so that chapter has all of that. I think I think you're right in terms of The substantive nature that one is the most substantive, you know arguably, you know the Third one doesn't change the intent there either, but there is a substantive Change as part of the first one and I think that bears additional discussion and I think we would have some feedback on that as well if if the Commission is interested in Contemplating making that recommendation to council So I mean I'd like to support Commissioner Dawson I think two of these four are good things that I could support I wonder if we want to split them out a little bit and If it's not going to like trigger a whole blowing up the timeline and dropping us out of the the vanguard of 30 jurisdictions Yeah, I mean I feel the same way that's kind of why I There are the consequences of not doing this or potential consequences of not meeting those deadlines is Concerning and Yeah, I do think that these are valuable and so if there's a way for us to have both, you know, I do think I agree that these are worthy Additions or adjustments. I'm particularly number one is of interest. So But I'm looking to I think I'd be looking to you to Continue to help us understand what those implications are Both This is the first time we've seen him like again, I support good new ideas a few of which are here But I just have concerns about like legal and inadvertently making a sequit thing Is that is that just my reaction because when I read saying the first time Other experts reviewing this before we just adopt recommendations to council I don't see any sequa implications for the for policies up here There are some potential legal implications for the first one and so If the commission is interested in discussing those we can we can talk through those Yeah, I guess I don't feel like the first one belongs at this stage of this policy document But I would sure be interested in seeing it the next time You know where that portion of that ordinance comes up I know we have talked about it in the past, but I'm uncomfortable with this being brought up At this stage even in April we would have had a chance to to wrap our arms around it a little bit That's how I feel about the first one anyway because I feel like that is the one that could potentially mess up our timeline You know the navigation centers are already being discussed and as a clarification I sure don't have any problem with that everyone wants those and I think that ended up in the master plan by my memory. Yeah, and that's all that's already in place and Just kind of Right, and it's you know the fourth one is just tinkering with you know based on the timeline of that really important program And I don't have any problem with that language, and I don't think it has an impact I'm wrestling with the university one because it's just it's hard to find language that you know that that That is meeting at some kind of a goal for us and that isn't I mean if it is just kind of null language and You know fanning the flame of how you know We're pissed off that they don't produce enough housing and we think the state is wrong and how they make us count housing and Because I think those things are true and then I and if that's the case if it's if some Language in there could make that case better without screwing up the timeline then I'd be in favor of trying to Find a different word I think I Would agree. I'm sorry.  I completely agree with the intent of all of these I This may be a silly question, but I am not familiar with the Moving-to-work program. You guys have any information on that a 30-second blurb on exactly what that is Call Jessica to it back. Okay. Can you cut her mid-gulp? So the move-to-work program is of only a handful of Housing authorities have been able to be successful at getting the designation. So it's a pretty big deal What it provides the housing authority is access to More vouchers more capacity to create more vouchers and when I mean vouchers There's you know tenant-based vouchers or project-based vouchers Tell me if you're telling me if you want me to define those for you But for rental assistance essentially In addition, they have access to more funding resources and they have more greater flexibility on how those funding sources are used. So it is like You know we're we're excited So Yeah, is that enough for a 30-second blurb? Sounds good to me. Yeah Yeah, and I guess my other comment would be that the word insist If we're gonna include something like this we should probably clarify that because it's difficult to measure that That we've insisted, you know, how to it's not a quantifiable Situation I mean unless you're counting how many times you insist, right? We might need to clarify that a little bit, but I'm on board with that Continue to put pressure on I mean we've been insisting since I mean 75 Ramp it up to say to man That doesn't really mean anything either right, but there's no I mean I don't know what word means anything in this context. It's already you know, it's all it's already an objective I would just I Guess the issue that I have with that language in particular is that it it elicits And maybe it's a personality thing because I read what what's there You know originally and it does sound collaborative It's an objective that has always been a struggle and I think that we're always looking for ways to get things done more collaboratively than Insisting and it hasn't worked as we've seen so I do feel like we've been moving towards a more collaborative effort with UCSC and you know by putting more aggressive language that might be Not Helping our cause when we know that we can't actually insist or really Demand as far as I can tell otherwise we would have Crazy about the language. I agree with you. It makes me feel like we're kind of kicking a little bit of a well I mean, which is true. We do we do have tantrums about it all all the time But and encourage the university to I mean we already have that Collaborate I mean I mean if there's a way that we can insist and it's actually real Is the way it's not just we know we've got branches of the state You know, we've got HCD versus, you know, the UC Regents and You know just deciding what counts as housing, you know that are in conflict in within this document So that's yes, that's my main and the other thing about it is it's an objective right it doesn't require We necessarily meet it, but we are going about Meaningfully trying to limit the number of students they get pushed into an already heavily impacted rental market, right? I'm not sure that there is a good way to do this, but I feel like we're achieving that with collaborating myself. I guess Lee I Think you could Get at the intent here. I think What I'm hearing concern about is the word insist and so I think you could actually strike that portion and say Collaborate with UTSC on ways to increase the supply of student faculty and staff housing on the university campus Including the provision of on-campus housing for all students above the enrollment level I was like just take that Because because the I like that it's neither mushy The nineteen the nineteen thousand isn't I think that the number is important to get in there And so and then may just help with the You know Lee Maintain the collaborative intense Still get that little bit of information in there that wasn't there Yeah, I still don't like it it's too late to do this 30 with respects and it just feels like there's a lot of legal arrangements and Deals and handshakes. So I like it, you know, I feel it, but I can't support it That one in particular. I Sure don't have any problem with the second and the fourth even coming in at this late date Because I don't think that they do anything that they I think they just clarify things that they're their words methane Do you agree? I would agree. I would say that those are really clarifications and Would not trigger emphasis. Yeah, yeah, it would not trigger a Another public comment period Let's separate those out Everybody's comfortable with that or if the maker of the motions come baby. Well, we haven't we haven't second Considering a second I wasn't just wasn't quite ready to move to the motion stage, but I sure am now At 830 let's move it. It's pretty good. Uh-huh So do you want to clarify your motion? Well the same motions on the table, I think it would be for them to let it right we don't think we had a yeah We don't have a second so Is there a new motion You you can make a motion if you want Julie to move those too I Don't think I would move them Anyone like to make another make another motion Sure. I can't make that motion. I'll I'll make a motion for what I said before with the proposed changes of regarding the Navigation Center and the moving to work program and Leave it at that and hopefully we can follow up on the other two at a later date because I don't have the votes Is there a second a second Mr.. Kelby seconds. I have a mild discussion that's more of a speech making at this point, but I Was at the PTO meeting at Bayview school this morning thinking a lot about school districts So I love this report when we see it every round because it slices and dices the city in so many different ways That's just super fun for me to see like demographically And I've been thinking a lot about the city council districts kind of the political building blocks of our city And so I live in district three and I look at these numbers and you know if I asked five of my neighbors What they thought of this housing plan. They'd say you're crazy. You're ruining our town. You're building huge skyscrapers yada yada yada but district three only needs to build 372 units 61 very low low income 86 moderate income 255 above income and when I think of the kids and like the moms in that classroom and the dads in that classroom And I think of the impact like 61 very low income Units would have on our school. Oh, it gets me in the heart so I just want everyone to keep up this good work and Everyone to call their city council person and say hey listen. Here's our new goal Let's go build some housing like we did next time. It might not be this much But every unit every five that's within a block of a school or three or 12 is huge So I just wanted to put that touch on it before we vote I want to make a point before we vote to and First of all to just thank and congratulate staff. I know what a heavy lift these is I've written a few of these and they are so much work and also I Really hope that people in the community who are interested in housing and there's a lot of people expressing interest in housing these days. There's so much information in here and It explains a lot about why we're doing what's happening in the city So I had that but then what I really wanted to say and thank you for is appendix D Which is affirmatively furthering fair housing? I was annoyed by this when we first heard it was going to come out because it's so hard to tackle I think you all did a really good job. I'm really glad to see I'm convinced I'm glad really glad that this new requirement as part of state housing elements not because it's going to reverse historic institutionalized Discrimination that is built into our land use patterns But it forces every single jurisdiction in the state to to have this in its sights And to address it every cycle and so I'm really glad to see that I had one more comment as I was reading through this very long section Which is about tenant services There's a bit of a you know a Description of the really sincere efforts that we make and we have a really terrific housing section doing its best with really not very much money and But I mean I appreciate that those tenant services are available the CRLA contract and others are worth calling out But I also remember days when there really were tenant services They were funded by You know CEDA, which was a really old federal program before you guys were born and it really helped with housing search with information about available resources and how to get on a waiting list for instance It they played a really important role and there was a group working on this And I think they still are Santa Cruz black and a shout out to them One of the strategies that they identified is that an easy to access organization that could actually help people Understand how to find housing because it's such a labyrinth And even you know start really putting organized Pressure to get the resources needed for it. So I just want to put a shout out for tenant services out there I could go on The comments Thank you Yeah, it's a lot of work big report a lot of work. Thank you guys All right, then we'll call for a roll call vote test This is for the amended language, right correct Commissioner Conway hi Dawson hi Gordon hi Kelby hi famous hi entity hi All right. Do you have any informational items tonight? I'm gonna do a schedule look ahead Yep, the schedule looking ahead. Oh, I'm sorry goes that it was that? Vote just on the language change. Don't we need to and staff recommendation? Oh, don't we need to it was a whole thing? Thank you The staff I want to change my boat though. Yeah The vote was unanimous and the staff recommendation plus number two and number four If they were even revised, I don't remember but I got it all it's part of my job to announce that too. So Good schedule November 30. Yes Well, I actually one piece of information that I wanted to share in advance of the schedule is Yesterday the California Coastal Commission heard our objective standards and Approved that unanimously so the There are some changes. So we need to bring those changes back to the council. They're not particularly substantive They're just clarifying some of the procedures as they relate to peels of coastal permits. So we need to bring that back to the Council and then once the council has two readings on that it goes back to the Commission And then once the Commission says yes, the this is matching our Approval then those objective standards for multifamily housing will take effect in the coastal zone That I want to just note that does not include the Resonings there are a few properties in the coastal zone that have mixed use Resonings and we're still working on the land use plan updates Related to those and so that will be a later stage But multifamily housing will still Have those objective standards apply as soon as we get through these processes As a big hurdle and as you know, that was a big process as well Wanted to let you all know that that It is one step closer a big step closer I will say to taking effect in the coastal zone, which is exciting Congratulations. Thank you. The words coastal Commission unanimously approved. I know what to do with those words It's a great. I will say it was I will also say it was unanimously approved on the consent calendar So that was that was great to see and Then upcoming as you know, we have Off schedule regularly scheduled meeting two weeks from today So that will be the appeal of the 900 High Street project peace United Church Right by Westlake Elementary School and then I'm going to verify the oh, I was gonna say is there a meeting the first meeting in December No, the first meeting in December was moved to that meeting then the it's What will be the first meeting in December will be the 21st. We do have items on that including We have fitness center and we have Currently we're looking to have the cruise hotel on that agenda. So That would be on the 21st and there is one more give me a moment So let me say that quorum is going to be very essential for that meeting So please communicate with staff and CC me just to you know, make sure we have enough folks here It's if we've got to bring cookies and stuff for Santa, you know, Christian Thank you Let's see Thank you, the local. I was looking for which tab that was the local hazard mitigation plan It is also currently scheduled for that Though that that could push out depending on timing So Yes, please let us know if you are not available that will be an important one and we appreciate you Always and especially that close to a holiday like that that's all for the updates and For the December for the November 30th meeting Because it's like right near Thanksgiving. I'm just wondering when we're gonna get the information For that meeting we anticipate having that Wednesday on Wednesday beforehand Thank You Tess I'll say that on Tuesday went to the city or I called in the city council. They passed the the natural gas ban plug in the road Went through council and first reading some good discussion. It was very interesting Thank you. Yes second reading will be back in two weeks on the 28th and Yeah, it's electric preferred Excuse me. They can Electric very strongly preferred. Yes. So, thanks Lee, of course. Yep All right with that I will adjourn this meeting. Thank you everybody. Thank you very much


Let's take a look at this program that calculates the area and perimeter of two rectangles. We start with the methods that do those calculations. And then in main, we declare variables for the width and height of the first rectangle and print and calculate the area and perimeter. Then we set the width and height of the second rectangle and calculate and print its area and perimeter. There's nothing wrong with this program. It works exactly as advertised. But it's a bit clunky. We have the width and height as independent variables, and they're separate from the methods, get area and get perimeter, that work on them. Wouldn't it be nice if we could put them all in a box and tie it up with a nice, neat bow? That is part of what objects do for us. They let us build a data structure where the related pieces of information, the width and height, are grouped together. And they allow us to group the methods that work on the width and height right alongside the data. We group things together in a class. Let's create a class called rectangle, which will go into a file called rectangle.java. In the class, we define the data that belongs to the class. A rectangle has a width and a rectangle has a height. These are called the class's properties, the things that a class has. You may also hear them referred to as attributes or fields. Think of this class as a blueprint that tells what a rectangle is made out of. In order to make an object from the blueprint, you have to construct the object in the similar way that you have to construct a house out of a blueprint for the house. To construct objects from their blueprint, you need a constructor. Constructors are very special. They look like functions except they don't have a return type. Inside the constructor, you set the values for the properties. By default, a rectangle will have a width of 1.0 and a height of 1.0. You can also provide constructors with parameters. I can have a constructor where you tell me how wide and how high you want the rectangle to be, and I'll set the width to whatever you told me the width was, and the height to whatever you want the height to be. Here I have the properties of the class and the constructors. I then put the methods, which are the methods that work on the data. I can have double get area, which returns the width property times the height property, and double get perimeter, which returns 2.0 times the width plus the height. We don't need any parameters for these methods. When they need to access width and height, they'll look at the properties, and they're right there because everything's all together in the object. Let's give it a try in the testrectangle.java file. Inside of main, we're going to construct a rectangle. It's like every other declaration we've done so far. We give the data type, in this case the class name rectangle, the variable name, R1, and on the right hand side we initialize it by invoking the constructor with the new keyword. We want the new rectangle, and we'll use the default constructor. Rectangle is the class, R1 is the object. We also say that R1 is an instance of the rectangle class. Let's define another rectangle, R2, which will be a new rectangle with a width of 3 and a height of 5.5. Now let's call the methods. Instead of doing it the way we had to do it before by saying R1.width and R1.height, namely the non-object way, instead we'll use the dot notation just as we used with strings to call the methods. We'll set area 1 to be R1.getarea. You might want to read this from right to left. Invoke the get area method using the data belonging to R1. And we'll have perimeter 1 be R1.getparimeter. We're telling R1 to invoke its getparimeter method, or again from right to left, invoke the getparimeter method using the data that you find in R1. And let's print out the results. Let's save that and compile it, and let's run it. And let's do likewise for the second rectangle, which we'll do without intermediate variables. We'll print area and perimeter, and this time we'll tell R2 to use its getarea method. And we'll call the getparimeter method for the object R2 to use its data. Let's compile and run, and that works as well. And that's a quick overview of objects. In the next videos, we'll go into more detail about classes, properties, constructors, and methods.


Why is it that we always have to be a dreamer when it comes down to peace? What's so difficult about peace to have a peaceful society? You want me to answer that? I know you have to answer that. Why is it so difficult to have a peaceful society? Because it's unnatural. The natural condition of men is to fight. And to stop them fighting you need something. It doesn't happen without... Pay attention, Rob is shocked. No, you can see it. It's not just the war is the natural condition. Peace is the unnatural condition. Peace requires effort, requires constant work. And I tell you the thing that's on my mind in the last couple of days, because you couldn't switch on the radio in Britain for the last two weeks without hearing about Scotland. And the separation, had it happened, would have been a fight. Because the people in London, the people in England, would have had no interest. They would not have been elected to look after the interests of people in Scotland. In the end, their mandate would have been to take every penny they could have from Scotland. And the people in Scotland would not have been elected to be nice to the people of England. They would be elected to do everything they could to screw the English. So that's why I thank heavens that 55% of the population said the right thing.  And once you destroy them, the natural instinct is to fight. Is this the general view around the table? Or is there a little bit more optimism which I wanted to create? Look, I think every time you have the successful maintenance of peace, in this degree I would be in... I'd agree with Robert. It's an enormous victory. And it's important always to remember why it matters. We just had two musicians with very few words reminding us what peace feels like and why you want it. And it's an important testimony to the immense power of music to remind us of that. There's a sense increasingly in Western Europe and in North America that it's futile to intervene in other people's conflicts and futile to try to stop them. And it's worth remembering places where preventive deployments, for example, just to choose one example, Macedonia did not explode and was not sucked into the Balkan vortex simply because preventive deployment by United States Marines. Believe me, my solution to the world's problems is not the preventive deployment of Marines everywhere. I'm just saying every time we stop war from happening, we win an important victory, most of all for our own belief in the sense that there is an independent world and that we have responsibilities to an independent world. Futility, the sense that it's hopeless, the sense that they will fight and there's nothing we can do seems to me much more of a problem than imagining peace. It's actually easy to imagine peace and we just did it for an hour. We can think of war as the expression of the excess of fear and greed that is at the core of the human being and a driver of civilization. I mean, we seem to be in a continuous effort, I mean throughout history, at trying to manage that excess and create the structures in order to have that management be the state of affairs. But I agree, I mean throughout history we have not done that. We have not done that for many reasons, some of which are structural, which is basically that when there is a serious imbalance in material facts, it is difficult to convince that the state of affairs has to be driven towards basically further balance. But another reason which I think is very important is that we have yet to establish a permanent system of universal values. We are still living in the illusion that we developed over the past two centuries that there's an agreement about the underlying values and therefore to talk about values we're talking about a framework of reference that everyone can refer to and benefit from. While as a matter of fact I think we are at a point where we might have lost the universal. We do have peace in Europe already for 70 years. That's not the case in the part of the world, the three of you are at least affiliated to Lila, I'll connect you to the Middle East at this moment. What is it that the Middle East can learn from Europe? It's clear that Yugoslavia for you is not Europe. No, on the contrary. I think that this was actually what changed in a way is the nature of war, not the nature of peace. Most of the wars are civil wars with intervention sometimes with the help of outsiders but the main reality of wars is civil wars. Now civil wars take on average six years, now it's even higher. Between states it's three months on average and the bitterness and the cruelty and the narcicism of minor differences in civil wars, the intensity of it is enormous because everything is at stake in a civil war. It's who we are, how we define ourselves, everything is at stake and therefore the main worry should be civil wars rather than the old talk about administrating the world at large and talking in grand terms about wars and about peace. It's the philosophical disease of talking about nothing in particular. You wrote this book on compromise which became a very influential book called Compromises on Rotten Compromises in which you argue that to establish peace you do not necessarily need justice. Peace and justice is not fish and chips. They are not necessarily complementary commodities. They can be intention and the tension between peace and justice is there and sometimes you have to compromise on justice in order to get peace I think should in most cases get priority. That was the claim but they didn't say that you shouldn't address all the worries. The point is that you cannot solve all of them because there is an inherent tension between peace and justice. In many places you cannot, if you want really justice to prevail in the strong sense in many cases it means an ongoing conflict because you won't satisfy the demands of justice that the parties perceive. Part of why peace is an ambiguous good and part of why people fight is that people don't just want peace. They want justice all the way. The difficulty about conflict is that it's connected to the deepest, most urgent values we have and people will not trade justice for peace. People choose war not for irrational reasons or because they can't see the virtues of peace but because things matter much more to them than peace. Justice matters more to them than peace. Retribution matters more than peace. Vengeance matters more than peace. And these are deep human realities. If Hassan is right that the only way out of civil wars is to rediscover what our universal values are, then what to do? In order to be able to converse, in order to be able to talk with the other we have to accept the notion that we do not have a common frame of reference by necessity. We seem to have over the past two centuries, in particular through the creation of an international order convinced ourselves that it is there, it's implicit there. And I think that what has happened, the description about the change of the nature of war first to civil and then beyond civil to non-state actors who actually are engaged in war with full states. Al Qaeda, a tiny bunch, is engaged in a global war. So that change has not been mirrored by a change in our understanding of a framework of an international network both at a legal, from a legal point of view but also from a philosophical, ethical, moral point of view. I was amazed that you said, Rob, that Europe's been at peace for 70 years. I think one of the issues, it's not merely that war has changed but our sense of what peace has changed. The proposition that we haven't, we've been at peace in Europe for 70 years misses Yugoslavia. But it also misses, you know, I don't want to get heavy about this but you know there are at least two people who should be in this audience this afternoon and are not here because of July 17th. And every person in this country, of all countries, is now aware that the distance between zones of safety where they're supposedly peace and zones of danger can collapse at 30,000 feet in one instant. I don't want to overdo that because it's just so obvious. And the second thing is that every time you go through Shiphole Airport you're in a security zone and we're now used to security zones in which little by little these zones of safety that we live in have transferred to governments, powers that used to only be transferred to governments in wartime. The third element of this changing face of our experience of war is that it's all what the... I'm going to say this wrong and Lila Shevtseva is here so she will shout out the right way to pronounce it. Moskerovka in which war is masked. I mean Putin is engaged in territorial invasion of a European state and says, I'm doing no such thing. There's no war in Eastern Ukraine or I'm protecting populations in Eastern Ukraine. So we live in a world in which we are being lied to about war, in which war comes to us in an instant when we're flying in an airplane and in which we've over the last 15 years become a state that has transferred to liberal democracies, powers that only used to be exerted in wartime. So the sense that peace and war have begun to change their shape and why does that matter? It means that if you have to rouse a European public or a Canadian public or a North American public to face a threat in Eastern Ukraine, you have an enormous difficulty convincing people that they're actually in fact at war. It makes the politics of mobilizing, firm, decisive action extremely difficult because we're at peace. We're not in danger. And in fact, in a molecular way, we don't live in peace and we should sense an integral feeling of threat with what's happening in Eastern Ukraine, but do not because of what I would call this general maskerovka of the nature of war itself. I think that something did happen in the 18th century in old Europe. One of our most prominent living philosophers in Iran is a man called Doryush Shaiyagon. And he wrote a book in French called La Lumière vient de l'Occident, which means enlightenment comes from the West. He was being slightly bit provocative, of course, but I think we keep on forgetting that something happened in the 18th century in Europe. There was a definition and an idea of man. And this idea of man, this definition, created was the flower, the burgeon of democracy and the way we still think of the body politic today. And I, as a person of younger generation, I keep on want to go back to that idea of man. I want to try and extract us from the state of exception from relativism that says, well, we can do that because in the end, our values are greater than, you know, we have different values and maybe we don't understand each other and we must change the barometer of values. I think the real challenge today for peace is to believe in a universal value. And I do, and I think that's the connection that we're here to make today between a universal value created somewhere in Europe in the 18th century and the nexus with culture, with the imagination, with something that we as private citizens but also as writers, as actors, as musicians, as politicians, we may work towards every day and every moment. Al Fischa, do you think that's possible to go back to the 18th century? No, there is nothing wrong with cosmopolitics but there is no politics to cosmopolitics. Explain. Namely, there are no institutions that really can govern the world as such. And therefore, I mean, it's still an international world. There are states and it is going to be, there are states are there to stay for a long time and actually the reason why people are here so worried about Ukraine is in order to keep the lines intact no matter whether there are Russians in East Ukraine or not whether they speak Russian in East Ukraine. People think that what blaring the lines is dangerous and even Sykes-Picot's lines should be sort of sacred because people are afraid of challenging the nature of international. So cosmopolitanism is obviously a noble emotion but just emitting the right emotions won't do the trick here because it's still, the boundaries are still there and the main problem, as I said, is that within those boundaries you have civil war. But I think the question that Avishar is putting on the table is what is the politics of peace? What is a realistic? How do we get beyond John Lennon singing songs? That is right because the politics of peace are always particular. There is no general theory of peace that's going to bring peace. You have to solve each problem one by one. And on the whole, I'm not sure I agree with what you said earlier, Michael, because of course everybody wants justice and of course what they mean by justice is always different but they will never get it through war because once the wars begin the injustices multiply and the bitterness is multiplied. So the first thing is not to begin and that's why whatever you do, even with Ukraine at the moment where there is a war going on and it's not a civil war, even there we should go slowly because every step you take takes you a little bit deeper into a conflict and once it begins it's much more difficult to finish it. So let's move slowly, let's threaten, let's be ready to act but actually acting one should be really cautious about that. One thinks about a politics of peace in this situation. I guess what I'd say first of all is that it's really important to strip away the illusions that we have about living in peace over 70 years and realize the sense in which there is a threat, an ongoing threat to the post-war order that is a border has been altered by force. So the first element of a politics of peace is simple realism that is simply facing facts and the facts are that a border has been changed without the consent of the people who live in it and the second illusion that is even more deeply embedded and it is an obstacle to a politics of peace was some idea about globalization meaning convergence. There was some idea after 1989 that we would because of international trade, globalization because we all use the same gadgets because we're all in the same information space and because there's a rising middle class everywhere, everybody's benefiting, all boats are rising, there's a general convergence and that creates the economics of peace. Well, I think one of the things that the Ukraine story is telling us is that globalization produced a good deal of economic convergence in the sense that Russia and China look like some kind of capitalist society, state capitalist authority, but of political convergence there has been none. And also to be, you know, just to pick a fight for no good. I teach human rights for a living, that's what I do and I teach it to students from 80 countries. The only way I can teach human rights that is the vindication of the 18th century values you're holding there is by understanding it's a bloody argument from dawn to dusk. They simply don't agree about the terms of universalism and I actually think that people who have rather common views about universal values can fight each other to the death and that's the reality we need to understand as well unfortunately. Is the EU the civilizing global force which can spread global peace? It would be nice if this was true, but I think the answer to that is not yet. Two reasons. First of all, the first thing to understand, you talked a lot about America so maybe we shouldn't talk just about America this afternoon, but if you want an answer to the question about the 70 years of peace in Western Europe because there was not peace in Eastern Europe, there were massacres in Poland, there were people killed in Hungary, I guess it was not great in Romania either. No, it wasn't. But in Western Europe and Yugoslavia was temporarily absent from that and happily is returning now as many other places are. But in Western Europe we had 70 years of peace and if you want to know the reason why, the answer was America. It was not just the Marshall Plan, actually the European Union was as much an American creation as a Franco-German creation. It wouldn't have happened without America, specifically without Dean Atchison and many other people. It needed American backing and the contribution of NATO to peace in Europe is not just that it maybe kept the Soviets out but it produced a transparency in military affairs that we've never had before. It meant that normally Germany facing on the one side Russia needs to have a gigantic army in case it needs to deal with both Russia and France together. NATO made that unnecessary. NATO dealt with the problem of the Germans' middle position. It produced transparency in military affairs across Europe. It produced military cooperation rather than competition. This together with the European Union was none of this would have happened without the USA. So for that 70 years peace we have above all to thank the United States. Now I think this era is coming to an end not because the USA is leaving but because the focus in the USA is shifting to Asia. The US is inclination to someone say happily to invade the Middle East is less than it was before. And we have a lot of problems in our neighbourhood we Europeans of which Ukraine is high on the list but if you look at North Africa the Sahel what lies behind it in countries like Nigeria we have a lot of problems which most of them are too small for America. We were lucky with the Soviet Union because this was a global scale problem and the US felt it was a problem for the USA and the problems that Europe now faces are regional problems much more than global problems and America I'm sure will help but I think Europe is going to have to do more. To pick up something Abishai said earlier about the enormous explosion of inter-state war the decline of war between states and the increase of war within states it's the phenomenon of post-imperial state formation and we're not finished. The Arab-Israeli conflict in some sense could be seen as post-imperial state formation and it's going on. We now in 1945 had what was it? 45 states in the United Nations we now have 195. For my money that's one of the great victories for humanity actually because it means that millions of people who were ruled by others now rule themselves sometimes not so well sometimes with internal conflict but if you ask what you want for a world that would be more peaceful you want a world of responsible states responsible and capable sovereigns who deliver minimum amounts of political space to religious, ethnic and other social minorities I deliberately said not democracy I mean they get democracy that would be true but just enough space so that minorities don't feel crushed and don't feel they have to take up arms A world of responsible sovereign states in a post-imperial world seems to me a good thing I think it's a matter of rejoicing that China is not the cowed, humiliated power that it was in 1900 and is no longer under the insane communist tyranny of Mao I look around a world at which African nations are growing incredibly strongly and countries like Ghana are having democratic successions that are peaceful I look at what was evoked this morning by Paul Wolfowitz a South Korea that in 1954 there wasn't a person in this room who would think they would have consolidated peace and democracy next door to a certifiable lunatic but they've done so three generations of certifiable lunatics I just say that there are many forces actually making for peace and one of the most basic is the consolidation of post-imperial state order and the rise of a multi-polar world so then the challenge of peace becomes how we accept and live with pluralism I mean how we accept the fact that they're going to be consolidated in China and Russia stable authoritarian regimes that do not buy some of the universals other countries, other regimes that do not buy the universals Do they match the description of responsible sovereign states? Well they're responsible if they do not make war in other states and do not genocidally massacre their own people my criteria of responsibility is minimal they don't kill other people and they don't kill their own But being authoritarian are they predictable? Well then the question is to have a global order in which you have authoritarian regimes that are not a menace to their neighbors and that's what is being tested at the moment but if you get back to the John Lennon stuff and you ask what would the politics of that look like it looks to me like 200 plus responsible sovereign states that do not make war on each other and do not kill their own people and that's if we could get there that's a really good thing and we couldn't possibly have got there from 1945 because we were in an imperial world and so the life, the world we've lived in the last 70 years is a better world than the world that we inherited in the ruins of 1945 Nobody less than Freud is on your side when he wrote in his letter to Einstein when Einstein requested him why war you know you're the big psychological genius explained to me and then he literally writes you know we may rest on the assurance that whatever makes for cultural development is also working against war now this is almost a very political incorrect view but it relates to what you argue or your idealism of that with books, with literature we can make a difference why do you think that? I remember reading in one of my favourite books which was on your reading list one of my very favourite books has been Memoirs of Hadrian by Jürsenach and she talks about the Emperor Hadrian whom she idealises a bit he was also a bit of a tyrant when somebody disagreed with him apparently one of his secretary did he sent off a stone tablet in his head and killed him I think he killed one of his architects when also he disagreed with him he was also a tyrant so nobody's perfect as a Jack Lemon would put it in some like it hot one of my favourite quotes he was an emperor but he really tried he really really tried and you know he came to a difficult end in Israel with the revolt of Bar Kokhba in Palestine, Israel and so somebody who really sought to be a pacifier in the end also in a way failed and perhaps we are bound to fail but does it matter? because the reason why I like I love Jürsenach so much at one point she says and I have the quote for you but it's buried in my computer so perhaps you should all read the book again if you haven't read it or discover it she said really she puts it in his mind and he talks about we have had so much strife so many wars and of course our internal our own private spaces and private lives are ridden with our own wars which are malady, unrequited love old age death and he says well but then because of culture because of those victories because even of love we have moments of immortality and to me that's why I believe in culture this is very nice but I knew it I have to admit I have to admit if we are going to say what we believe in I believe in politics because I don't like them very much at the moment we seem to be in a kind of period of great mediocrity but maybe it always seems like that but nevertheless if you're talking about war and peace you need to solve problems with people you need to find compromises you need to talk to people you need to understand people you need cultural understanding as well and empathy all of those things you need but in the end you also need persistence in simply looking for compromises I have a quotation which is not from which is not from Blake Blake or from Tolstoy it's actually from another Russian who writes at one point we are pulling at we are pulling at two ends of a rope and in the middle of the rope is called a knot is tied a knot which is called war and the harder we pull the tighter the knot becomes and at some point the knot may become so tight that even those who have untied it cannot untie it cannot untie it now if you want to know the name of the Russian it was Nikita Khrushchev and he's writing a letter to President Kennedy in the course of the Cuban Missile Crisis for me this is a powerful image of actually what you need to do to make peace you need to relax to stop pulling on the rope to give somebody a chance to untie the knot if you want the really correct quotation what he actually says is he says Mr President you and I are pulling at a rope in which you have tied the knot of war and the person who has tied it may not be able Mr President to untie it unless we stop pulling so for me that's the image of how you get peace you stop pulling the rope you start talking that's all very true but I would like to add another dimension and I will quote a story about Muhammad he went to fight some minor fight and when he was back he said to one of his friend well this was the small war now let's dedicate to the great war and the great war was the inner war and the dimension I would like to add not begatializing what we are speaking here about life's death and peace and war is that each of us has an inner dimension and we all know this kind of inner war and we try to achieve peace and it was an ideal of all ancient philosophies they wanted to have the equality of mind or of soul they wanted to have which is being un-passionate and why was that so important because soul was important the inner dimension of men because the idea was that the inner reality is not peace is war and the sage must acquire the contrary of what is natural which is war and the contrary to war was the pacification of mind or of soul and of course there is a connection between what a man is doing starting from the thoughts and we believe that having good thoughts leads to a good life and to a non-violent life so this dimension of interior peace it's very important and if we were in ancient Rome having that discussion Rob or in ancient Greek in Athens I think we would have started with this inner war here I mean when you hear people say I'm a realist you usually find a delusional nut and then people talk about the inner self and then you get another kind of nuttiness the issue is the issue is here not between realist and non-realist the issue is really how to address seriously the problem of implementing peace in places where there is war now a great deal of concentration is about peace agreements but the main problem is not peace agreements but the implementation of peace who will finance the peace who will look after the security of the people after the war and then when the armed forces become gangs and violent gangs those are real worries and the main worry is and that's I think what worries the European that there are millions of people on the moves as refugees out of those civil wars and those are really serious problems to address before we address our interiority there is a kind of capitalism the world is going to hell in a handcart which is an obstacle to practical political action and there is a kind of global thing that we just got to shake ourselves out of the world is complicated it's not necessarily getting better but it's changed enormously since 1944 we need to understand the other point is about partiality you said partiality and tribal partiality is inevitable this gets us to the universe the virtue of universal values human rights for example I think the thing to be said in favor of universal values is the constant normative discipline on tribal partiality that's the purpose of it you never overcome the fact that you care about your citizens your family your loved ones more but the universal values are there to say wait a minute you are wearing blinkers and that it seems to me is to the degree that universal values have a function I think they do have a political function if I can abuse the privilege of having given the last word there have been two things about nexus there is talk from up here and some of it been wonderful some of it is not so wonderful and then there has been listening from you and I have been here for 20 years I just think someone from up here ought to thank you for the passionate intense listening that you have all done for 20 years thank you