Hello friends. How many of you have bitcoins? Roughly 25% lot of bad number. See actually the title of my presentation today is political theory of blockchains with a subtitle. Building an enterprise for next 1000 Satoshi Nakamoto's in Indian subcontinent. Am I philosopher? I am not a programmer and my philosophy background, I am not an academic philosopher, I am a non-academic philosopher rather I would say I am a speculative philosopher. My actual background comes from very deep studies in Mahabharata global cinema and spending time with lot of time with saints in Varanasi, Vrindavan and all these things. So at one time I wanted to be a sannyasi so all those things. But my basic interest in this particular space in bitcoins space was from the perspective of pure philosophy. I was never an investor, still not an investor. I wanted to find a true definition of money. A true definition of money means where the way you can define meter as a unit of, as a way of measuring a length, kilogram as a way of measuring weight, liter as a way of measuring volume. In this world you cannot measure reward of your labor in an objective manner. This is so subjective that this subjectivity is now a very serious tool of political exploitation and money is something where everything has been reduced to and we do not have any alternative of money. So bitcoin was the first serious point of rupture, first serious fault line in the world of money where I was seriously attracted. It was a very small 500 word article of bitcoin magazine in early 2012 which actually explained to me what bitcoin is and after that I never looked back. So working in a small town from Amritsar I started gathering as much knowledge as I could and I, in next three to four years, I could gather all the possible knowledge and could get into all the good communities, blockchain pioneers of the space and then I could feel that actually there is nothing new. It seems new but there is nothing new in the sense that being from a country, being from a land from where Mahabharata came, we lived in a world of ideological decentralization, cultural decentralization, political decentralization and what bitcoin is promising is the return of that decentralization. The only thing is that this is being designed in a manner which we could not have ever imagined. Now why we could not have ever imagined? That is the area where I am actually going to speak. What I am going to say is that currently there are around 800 cryptocurrency projects and out of those 800 not even 8 cryptocurrency projects, public projects are from India and not even one is in the top 100 space. Few people are doing ICO in India. Few people are doing serious blockchain innovation in India. It is smart contracts, not from India. Identity space, not from India. IPDB, not from India. Store J, not from India. If we are really people of Mahabharata land then why we are not innovative enough to create at least 1 or 2 percent of these cryptocurrency projects? We should be having enough of fertile imagination. I have talked to hundreds and thousands of bitcoin investors and my fundamental problem with all of them is that the moment you have bitcoin and you see the price rising, I have seen price rising from 20 dollars to 5000. I have seen cryptocurrency market cap rising from 0.1 billion to 165 billion. So more than 1600 times increase and this is just peanuts. This is going to rise further. My fundamental problem is that why we are not the wealth creators? If we are not the wealth creators then how we can prove? How can we say that we are the people of land of Mahabharata? It means there is something seriously wrong with our imagination and I am going to address that particular problem and that problem is that we actually live in a world where we only understand the tip of the iceberg. We do not actually experience the other things in a very critical explicit manner. See you understand bitcoin because bitcoin has turned into money. You could not have understood bitcoin 7 years back. Today you are understanding bitcoin because it is money but the point is there are 10,000 kinds of bitcoin possible. Bitcoin like possibility is 10,000 and my dream, my vision is to have at least thousand such possibilities in Indian subcontinent. Then what is stopping and the reason is the kind of nation state system that we have got used to live in is something that is stopping us. We are not actually challenging the operating system within which we are residing. We are inhabiting. See what I am saying is that the system that we are living in is basically of three layers. First is physical layer, borders, land, sea, air. We understand every nation state has borders. So a lot of high lot of noise is around this particular variable. It is actually not a variable but it is made out to be a variable. Now the second layer is actually the invisible part of this iceberg which is where actually nation state has monopolized four concepts. One concept is money. You cannot think beyond money and to you money means INR. Nothing else. Either bank money or cash. Now pay them too. But it is INR. Money means INR. This INR is basically a state monopoly. It can clear out 86 points of currency notes from the public and you cannot say even a single what is happening, my dear. The fact is you may be living in a political democracy. You are living in actually a monetary absolutist state. So money is a serious conceptual monopoly held by nation state and it works nearly invisibly. Nearly invisibly because if you challenge INR then you have to create a challenger and if you can't create the challenger then you have to accept the status quo. The second concept is ledger. A ledger is a very very simple thing. Very simple thing. But the one who controls ledger controls everything. In this world there have been only three kinds of ledger systems. Single entry ledger systems, credit entries in one box, debit entries in another box but boxes were lying in the house of the king. Then 500 years back the second system came double entry ledger systems. Credit, debit on single page but the box was lying in a bank in a stock exchange but it was a box. Bitcoin comes, credit and debit both are on blockchain triple entry. So you cannot change the data. So it's an open box. But the point is in this world in the current system ledger is controlled by a centralized party, third party. So you can't change. You can't control that data. Data comes after every three months quarter or annual balance sheet. Then law. The one sitting in the legislative assembly or parliament would make law. You can't make your law and that's why you can't make your smart contracts. You can't. You're not authorized to make a contract without the permission of those sitting at the top. So law is a state monopoly. When I say monopoly it means you are not allowed to enter without the permission of gatekeepers. And the fourth thing is labor. And as a labor, labor means gratuity, manners, pension, insurance, all the things related with labor conditions, minimum wage labor, holidays, vacations, maternity allowance, all those things. So all labor conditions are controlled by nation state. So nation state is not just border, land, sea, air. It is actually a conceptual monopoly, money, law, ledger and labor. And you never challenge a state at this conceptual level and blockchain is doing that. In money? Yes. Bitcoin has done that very effectively. In contracts, law, Ethereum is doing that. In ledger, all cryptocurrencies are doing that. And labor, chronobank, storage equine, machine labor. You are rewarded straight away. Put your 50 computers on the storage blockchain and let them on passively. So your labor as a conceptual monopoly has been disrupted. Blockchain has already disrupted it and you have yet not realized it. So state is not just land, sea, air. It is not border. It is the only part which you can see. The real thing is conceptual, money, ledger, law, labor. And out of these four conceptual monopolies come the third layer, which is much sinister. For the sake of provocation, I am using the word sinister. And that institutional monopoly is money, taxation, banking, corporation, political governance. You cannot work in monetary space without having a bank account. Cash is being outlawed. Today you are being shifted from cash to a bank mediated money. You cannot operate in Indian monetary system without validating whatever a bank is asking you to do. So a bank is something which will be a mediator and you cannot say no. Simply you cannot say no. Cash was the last bastion of monetary freedom that you had. 86% de-monetization has completely eliminated the space for that kind of monetary autonomy. And you could not even hear. And you will not be able to hear because the entire banking system is now being shifted to a single intermediary, NPCI, controlled by Aadhar. So conceptual monopoly becomes so effective in institutional monopoly, banking, then taxation, GST. However bad the government is, however bad the implementation is, you have to pay GST. Even if you are earning nothing, even if you are going to earn after three months, you have to pay advanced tax. And government has its own particular freedom to pay back you the refund. If they don't pay back you the refund, you are still waiting for supply of your working capital. And the rent seeker, how can you say no? I am hit rule. You can take your to any part of the world, but within India you have to pay GST. So institutional monopoly works like this. So I know I am taking certain conceptual jumps. I am not at present taking care of some academic nuances. So basically my job is why we are not having fertile imagination. So my question is that. Third thing is political governance. You cannot change your political governance model without the permission of those who govern you. You know all the political parties are basically oligopoly.  Ecological crisis Mumbai floods, Chennai floods, Uttarakhand. Ecological crisis repeats. You can't say anything, you can't intervene. And the problem is institutional crisis, ecological crisis is now being followed or rather now being is being given company by monetary crisis. We are moving towards a situation where institutional ecological and monetary crisis are actually going to converge. The moment they converge we are going to be a complete dystopia. And we are fast moving. We are already entered into serious recession though government is not accepting reality. And fourth thing is corporation. When you say corporation, corporation can be a proprietor firm with a bank account, a partnership firm with a bank account, a private limited company with permission from Ministry of Corporate Affairs, registrar of companies and all other KYC, then public listed or public limited. Or NGO or trust or foundation, you cannot have a corporation without an identity. What is the serious disruption which Bitcoin has caused? Bitcoin says I can be myself without declaring to you I am a corporation to help with you, to help with you.  Tell me that I need to organize myself into a KYC mode. I will not. The biggest change is not money making potential of ICO. The biggest change is self-governing or self-organizing potential of an ICO. Now if you see this complete paradigm physical borders, land, sea, most of people are trapped here, most of political noises here. Real noise should happen at conceptual year, money, leisure, law, labor and institutional monopoly, banking, taxation, corporation and political governance. So if conceptual monopolies are not changed, institutional monopolies are not going to change. Is there any noise in changing money? Money from the government side. So if you compile the entire system, what I am going to say is that we live in a very straight jacket, closed monoculture of nation state where we will be growing what we have been asked to. We will not create what we want to create. So that is why I am here to say that nation state, these nine properties, borders, then money, leisure, law and labor, then banking, taxation, corporation and political governance, all these nine properties can actually be made interoperable in blockchain space with use of ethereum contracts, with use of Sturgeon coin, with use of IPDB, you can actually create an interoperable set of alternatives which can actually replace closed kind of banking structures, closed kind of taxation structure, closed kind of corporations structure where I am not saying everything should be permissionless but the point is permissionlessness is a space where we are free to think and we should not be having a situation where we are not allowed to think. So that is why my target is if you see these nine properties, every property is a subset of micro properties, let us say banking, a banking is not just a payment network, banking is also a credit history manager management, banking is also lending particularly for SME sector, banking is also micro finance, banking is so many things if you and banking is also identity manager, so within banking you can find space of 100 ICS, just in identity, just in identity we have Banco, we have Civic, we have more such projects, there is also one more ICS I am planning on digital identity, so there are multiple projects, currently I am working on four white papers, one white paper is going to be out next week, second one next month, third one in November and fourth one would be out next year. The target is to create a white paper culture, the target is to create micro, ICS around the micro properties of this structure which we are refusing to challenge, you cannot change a structure without changing the properties of that structure and providing the real alternatives, the problem with indium is that project is good, you are not actually giving the imagination, the moment you start painting the imagination space that this is the potential case study, this is the potential case study, his answer would be can I do it like this, if you give him two cases of imagination he will come out with third case of imagination, so blockchain is not technology only, blockchain is actually pure imagination, the way you want to live, do you know you can create 100 versions of Facebook in blockchain space, 100 versions, 10 versions of Tinder on Facebook, we have more than 15 languages, if you go for natural language processing and implement those solutions in your vernacular space, India is a ripe plan for creating 1000 quality blockchain projects and ICS and I want to see that and I want you to understand the big picture, once you understand the big picture you will be able to understand what micro steps you need to take and you do need to make a revolt, it can be a silent and slow revolution and within silent and slow revolutionary methods within next 5 to 10 years you can create a situation where even if system collapse due to the convergence of institutional ecological and monetary crisis, even it collapses you will be having credible alternatives with you, thank you.


Luca, and he will talk about the influence of mutations on the compactness of viral single stranded RNA genomes in continuation of the work that we started in the morning. Thank you. Thank you very much for the introduction, Roja. So, well, first of all, I want to thank the organizer for inviting me here. You know, the first, I consider a bit at the beginning of my career as a scientist coming here to ICTP for a conference just before my PhD started, and of course I was among the audience. I wasn't presenting anything. And so it's a bit of an emotion being the first, for the first time on the other side of the auditorium in ICTP. So as Roja said, I will talk about the effect of synonymous mutations in single stranded viral RNA genomes, their impact on the size of the, of say, the genomes. And I will also present some new results about the effect of the distributions of mutations on, say, the genomes. Now, this work, many of you will have heard the first half of this presentation, and the second half will be dedicated to the new result. For those who haven't, well, it all started when I was in Ljubljana working with Trudy. I started working on RNAs with Ange. Also was finishing his thesis. One night coming back from Trieste to Ljubljana by car with Christian who was going, coming there for a, to give a seminar, we started talking about Bill's work, and Christian mentioned, okay, but you know, I would very like to know what happens if you consider synonymous mutations, because I've asked them and I couldn't, had not looked yet into it, and okay, we can try to look into that. And this came out of it, I'm very happy about this collaboration. So, well, the introduction, I believe I can skip by now since we had it from Galbart, from Bill and from Avi, also part of the result. But yeah, it all starts from the different packaging mechanisms between double-stranded DNA viruses and the single-stranded RNA viruses, and Bill very efficiently pointed out with that slide showing how much bigger the double-stranded DNA is than the single-stranded RNA, it becomes clear how the phenotypic properties of these two polymers will influence how they are packed into the capsules.  And again, as was pointed out this morning, in vivo, the right RNA is recognized by the capsules. How that is so, it's a very fascinating object of research. So there are, as Raiden pointed out, packaging signals in MS-2, some other viruses are believed to not have them, actually. Size turns out to be important, and perhaps there will be also several other things, but those are for the moment the ones that are known, and of course, electrostatic plays a very huge role in all of this. So talking about the size of the RNA fold, as Avi pointed out, there is a correlation between the size of the viral RNA and the size of the capsules, which pointed them to study, now it's kind of a temporal loop I'm presenting, your old result after my... Look at them to study what was the size of viral RNAs compared to random RNAs. So Avi already presented all of this this morning, but I will have the slide against this. It is the starting point for basically what we did. Long story short, you can, as I said, associate a measure to an RNA fold, which is its diameter, the maximum ladder distance. You have to consider an ensemble, a thermal ensemble of folds, since they are so large that the minimum free energy fold will not tell you much. There are very many folds within one KBT of energy, and if you then consider what is the scaling for a random RNA which has a composition, the average nucleotide composition of viral RNA, you obtain that power law, which goes this, and power two-third, and instead if you consider, if you measure numerically, what is the size of the viral RNA coming from icosahedral capsules, you get the points, oh, I do have the pointer, you get the points I, well, you get the point, why did it change slide, sorry, okay, my bad, so you, you get the points again, you, I should have tried those before, you get the points below. So the viral RNA is more, is more compact. It's seen also in experiment, this slide also was seen before, and yet as it was already said, the interesting part is that really, if you get the radius of gyration from TSMLD, you get a size which is comparable with that of the caps, of the mature capsid. If you look at the tracing of RNA in cryoAM, and the size of the capsid, again, you get a comparable size. The question is, is this compactness, this phenotypic characteristic of the genome, something which is selected for independently of other properties, or is it a consequence of some other evolutionary pressure of the virus, which are acting on the virus? The first one to check is the requirement for the virus to encode for its own proteins, and that's what we set out to study. So I will go on a bit, the first part of the talk will be dedicated to this question, and this is the plan for it, that's what we followed. We went, first of all, we recovered the result, just to be sure we had everything set all right. Then we started to mutate the viral RNAs with stricter and stricter constraints. So we started by including the denucleotide frequencies, which allow you to distinguish between viral families and the other. Then we allowed the only synonymous mutation which preserved the protein product, and finally we conserved also the untranslated regions at the beginning of the end of the genomes, which are important for the secondary structure which is present there, and the codon frequencies that will come to spring in more detail later. So recovering your result, well, we consider the same viral RNA compositions for the power law here at the beginning, but we also consider the Timoviridae like random RNA sequences. The Timoviridae were not considered in the original study because they have quite different composition, and it turns out that those changes affect only the pre-factor while the scaling is basically the same. So having this set, we went on, so all was done with the RNAs in our case, by the way, we went on including the first constraint, which is the denucleotide frequencies, that is, how frequent a pair of nucleotides appear in the virus with respect to a random population. And as you see here from the graphs of all different families we consider, you can really distinguish one from the other if you check. And we put this constraint in with fictitious energy basically in our Monte Carlo scheme, which was then, basically we only kept in the end those sequences which were within a certain distance from the average denucleotide frequencies we wanted. Synonymous mutations was the next constraint, so I believe all of you already know, but normally we got from DNA strands to a messenger RNA to protein synthesis, there is a triplet, so each amino acid is encoded by three nucleotides, and that's how we go from the four-code letter of the nucleic acid to the 20-letters alphabet of the proteins. And the main point is that if you consider how you can translate triplets of four nucleotides of four-letter alphabet into an alphabet with 20 letters, it turns out you have, well, 64 possible triplets, only 20 letters out of it, three of those triplets code for stop sequences, so there must be some degeneracy in the product. There will be several triplets which code for the same amino acid, and that is what we call the genetic code in the end, so here it is, taken directly from the Albert's book, and you see that some amino acids are very degenerate and others are not. And the question is, are the mutations which preserve the protein product, so if you mutate, for example, a GGU triplet only within one of these three, so that we still have glycine, are those neutral or do they disrupt the fold, the RNA fold? So we said to find out that this is our method, we have Monte Carlo scheme, mutations which change amino acid are rejected, there is an energy on the denucleotide frequencies and then we take, we filter the sequences up posteriori. We consider 122 viruses, for each one we kept between 500 and 2,000 sequences, and for each sequences we produce 500 folds on which then, I mean a thermal ensemble of 500 folds on which then we evaluated the MLD. Just to check, the nucleotide frequencies turn out to be about right, if we fix all of this. This is the result which I already saw this morning. As you can see, doing this, so only synonymous mutation and maintaining the denucleotide frequencies brings the MLD, average MLD of the viral genomes all the way up to the scaling law for random RNAs. Which is pretty interesting, we were very happy when we found out this result, because we was confirming a beautifully Bill and Navi paper, and we decided also to go on and include further constraints later. But before doing that, we wanted to see, since those were mutated really as much as possible, we wanted to see how many mutations it took to destroy this compactness. In order to do that, we considered only four viruses, four genomes, and we started to do what we call the mutation dynamics, which basically instead of printing the sequences out when they were really independent of each other, we printed them out every few steps and computed the MLD again for each one of them. And here you can see how it goes. So this is what Monte Carlo steps basically, depends on the length of the genome, but you see that almost immediately the average MLD goes all the way to the value we have at saturation of the mutations, so the random RNA one basically. This is a time of virida, which is a bit more strange in behavior. On the right-hand side, you have a sequence similarity instead of time, and you can see, for example here, that when the sequence similarity is reduced by 5, 10%, well, we have already destroyed the compactness basically. And it depends a bit on the virus, but for this two, for the BMV, for example, 5, 10% is enough. This will become important in the second part of the talk. Also an interesting part, which will be further seen later, is that if you look at the very beginning here, when there are few mutations, those can enhance the compactness even. Why? Well, arguably because if a virus or an organism, or that matters, optimizes for some phenotypic product, you will have to do a compromise with something else. So no optimization is complete. We want to stay in a spot, perhaps, that allows you some possibility to optimize something else if the environment around you requires so. So as I was saying, we moved on to include two other constraints, which are the untranslated regions at the beginning on the end, we left untouched. We mutated only the genes, and we conserved the codon usage bias. What I mean by codon usage bias, if someone doesn't know, as I pointed out before, there are several equivalent codons, which code for the same amino acid. But depending on the organism, one codon is usually more represented than another one. So they're not really equivalent in the cells, since you have different proportions of the equivalent ones. In order to take into account this, we shuffled the equivalent codons within the genomes. So in this case, we did not conserve the denucleotide frequencies, but we did conserve nucleotide frequencies and codon frequencies. And those are the orange points. And you see that still, even with these far too strong constraints, the mutations do destroy the compactness of the virus. So from this, we can conclude with some safety that, yeah, the compactness appeared to be evolutionarily selected. Now going to the second part of the talk, as Avi was pointing out this morning, there is the question, what causes this compactness? And we really saw that the pairing frequencies are the same between the mutated, as you said, between the mutated viruses, mutated sequences and the wild type sequences. The length of the duplexes, average length of the duplexes is the same. Even if you keep the same proportion of a degree of range in point, the same distribution, you can have, if you move them around randomly, you do have a size which is larger. Some observation they did, I'm always starting from your papers, it appears, is that in fact considering viral RNAs, we have that high degree branching points tend to cluster in the center of the fold, basically. And that does reduce the size of the fold. So from this, we started to wonder if there is perhaps on the sequence some hot spots, some stretches of sequence which forces the high degree branching points to come near each other, basically. So the final question we would like to answer is, of course, what does cause the fold compactness? Is there a particular property of the sequence, a code, if you want, that causes for this? We are moving toward trying to answer that step by step. And the first thing we looked at after the first study is if there is simply some stretches mutating which you destroy the compactness, or if there is not. So to answer this, we took into consideration two viral genomes, BMVR and A2, and Phage MS2, which are believed to have very different packaging mechanisms, MS2 as we have seen as some strong packaging signals, BMVR and A2 is believed to be mostly electrostatic. They are both hand-sized, they are both compact, and they are about the same size from 2,600 to 3,500 nucleotides, BMVR and A2 MS2. And on these two viruses, we consider the different kind of mutations distribution, localized mutations if you want. So first, we consider batches of mutations which are local on the genome. So up here, we mutated everything in the orange window, then we moved it, we moved it, we moved it, and so on. Then we consider the average fold, and we mutated the transportions of the fold, which are first the most central, and then we moved out to the least central. And finally, for a comparison, we took into account completely randomly placed mutations, these first ones. For each window, we produced 100 independent sequences, and for each sequence, 500 folds, again, we conserved only the denuclearized frequencies this time, where the mutations are not synonymous, we wanted to keep it as general as possible. So let's go on with the first, perhaps the movie will clarify it a bit. The first one is, we simply move the window around, each time we produce 100 independent sequences, and for each one of those, we compute the MLD. We consider then different sizes of the windows to see if there is some specific contiguous part of the genome which encode for the compactness. If there is, at the point, we will mutate one, and everything will explode. That is the idea. So here you can see, for BNV-RNH2 and FHMS2, wild type expected average MLD, shuffled genome, which is basically the power load, and for two different sizes of the mutation blocks, 120 nucleotides in green and 720 nucleotides in green, what is the MLD along the genome? So here you have the center of each windows. And there is not much happening, I mean, for BNV-RNH2, there is a spot in the center which is a bit more sensible to this kind of mutations, but even if we consider 720 nucleotides, which correspond to 20%, by the way, so this is what, with the synonymous mutation was disrupting MLD as for the quantity, even in that case, we don't reach the power load. For FHMS2, things are even worse, if you want, so that we don't reach it even less. Below on the bottom row, you can see the histograms of the MLD obtained combining all the values of MLD for all mutations sites, and really, it doesn't change so much from the wild type distribution. For the small windows, basically it doesn't change at all. So we went on then wondering if perhaps it's being central on the fold, which is important, so it's not a contiguous batch along the genome which encodes for this property, but some different batches which come together to form the center. And to do so, we basically put a measure of centrality, which I described in the next slide, and we ranked with that all the nucleotides of the fold, and we formed our windows depending on our batches of mutation, depending on how central the nucleotide is. So it goes like this. From the most central one, our mutation moves outside till they reach the tip of the average fold, and here you can see what would be the most central batch, which on the genome is like this, and the least central batch, which corresponds to the three tips, which is given by three different stretches of the genome. As a measure of centrality, we use the ladder distance again. So if you consider the ladder distance, the set of points which are the lowest ladder distance to each other point on the fold define the center, basically. And you can consider for each nucleotide what is its ladder distance to this set of points, and that is our measure of centrality, because the lower this ladder distance, the most central we are. This, for those of you who are familiar with graph theory, is basically equivalent to a centricity, which would be the maximum distance from one point to each one, every other point on the graph, and the point with the lowest centricity is the center of the graph. So we can get this measure, we average it over the ensemble, so we get an average distance from the center, and we rank our mutations according to that. Here you can see from the BNB RNA2 and the Phage MS2 the profiles of this distance from the center, the average, and in gray, we have the standard deviations from this average profile, and you see that near the center, the deviation is not so much for BNB RNA2, but MS2 is a bit more noisy, but still, if we consider a big enough window, we are safe that even on different folds we are keeping the central, the most central regions. So now we consider the most central part, 20% of the genome, the least central 20% of the fold, sorry, and also the one which will be in the middle, and you can see the effect of the mutations here, unexpectedly actually the most central, the most central portion is the one which causes the least disruption, so if you mutate the most central portions of the genomes, we are influencing the fold, the least. While the other two, the middle and far 20%, have more or less the same effect. Still, none of these reaches the shuffled genome distribution. Finally, to have a comparison, we took into account dispersed mutations, so, okay, so mutations which were, as you can see, are just randomly taken around the genome, and so we have more or less the effect that we had with the synonymous one, if you want, they are uniformly distributed. And in this case, going from 120 to 720 nucleotide, we really see the change toward the shuffled genome distribution. And comparing these different kind of mutations, sorry, to go back to the previous slide, comparing these different kind of mutations, so, block, the centrality rank, and the dispersed, sorry, we can diffuse there, we see that the dispersed mutations which are in dark blue here are the only one which reaches the power law, basically, for the MLD, where we mutate 20% of the genome, which was the amount of mutation which were seen to be disruptive in our previous study. So, from this, what we get is that whatever property is encoding for the compactness is really a global property of the RNA in our, or at least it is on a scale which is bigger than the stretch of 20% of the RNA. Yeah, we went up to 720 nucleotides, perhaps if we went up to a third or so, we would have seen something different. I don't know, but the results point out to it really being a global property. So, wrapping up, sorry, should be on time. The take home message is that, yeah, viral compactness appears to be evolutionarily selected for, and it appears also to be resilient to localized mutations. The open questions that remains, of course, is what is causing this viral, this compactness, what is the code, if there is a code, the genomes, and we don't have an answer with this, we would like to. So, thank you very much for your attention and to all those who contributed to the study.


Good morning, good afternoon, good evening, wherever you're hailing from, welcome to another episode of Red Hat Enterprise Linux Presents. I am Chris Short, host with the most of all things Red Hat live streaming. I am joined by Mr. Red Hat Enterprise Linux himself, Scott McBrien and Eric, the IT guy. There's a story behind that, both of them probably, but welcome Narendra back to the channel. I haven't seen you in a while. Scott, what are we talking about today, buddy? I thought today we'd talk a little bit about network manager. I still run into people that are like, can't we install networking and get rid of that network manager-y thing? Because I think that they remember network manager in Red Hat Enterprise Linux 6. That's my memory of, yeah. And to be fair, it wasn't fully baked then maybe. And it was a big departure from what we knew and loved with configuration files and stuff. But we closed that gap significantly in 7 and in row 8, network manager is the default and networking is still distributed, but it's deprecated and not recommended anymore. Right. So I just wanted to touch base on network manager and the tools that we use for working with it. And maybe I'll play the crusty sysadmin with Eric and he can tell me how great it is and I'll just tell him how horrible it is and then he can tell me why I'm all wrong. So. I am here for this ride. But a programming note, folks. So, I mean, do you want to say it, Scott? Or do you want me to say it? Yeah, sure. So a lot of people probably have not yet noticed but the level up hour has changed hosts. Yes. Langdon White unfortunately is no longer with Red Hat. He's moved to pursue a career in academia. And so I've moved over there to be one of three hosts on the level up hour. And because of that, Mr. Eric Hendricks is going to be taking over the Red Hat Enterprise Linux Presents live stream with Elsin, you are short. Yes, I will still be here. Eric, tell us what you do here at Red Hat and also what you do on the side. Definitely. Yeah, great to be here. I guess a longtime fan, first time caller. Ironically, that that's the the chance I get to kind of try and follow Scott's and kind of help make this live stream continue to provide the great information that it has. So I am a technical marketing manager here at Red Hat. I work with Scott and team to produce a lot of the content, some of the tech videos, the release notes, things like that here at Red Hat for all things Red Hat Enterprise Linux. And then before that, I was in sales for about two and a half years. I worked for Red Hat for GitLab. And before that, I spent close to a decade as a systems administrator. I've worked on Ubuntu, Red Hat Enterprise Linux, CentOS. I used to run Arch, by the way, on my on my home systems. So a little bit of everything, Linux and open source. And then before coming to Red Hat, I actually kicked off a podcast. It's called the Pseudo show. Quick disclaimer, it has no nice CO2, keeping an eye on the chat. Quick disclaimer, the Pseudo show is not affiliated with Red Hat, but glad to be doing that show as well as this one to talk about rel. So glad to be here. We're happy to have you. And I'm pulling up a link for the Pseudo show to drop in chat right now as soon as I find it. But in the meantime, Network Manager, the thing that some people used to love, but should now come to love. Yeah. And so like, here we go, Eric, I'm going to be the trustee, so sad, man. Ready? You're going to get to tell me how wrong I am. I don't use that. I need to be able to edit files to make my changes to my network config. And it doesn't do that. I wanted to play the crusty, sad, man, but, you know, that's fine, whatever. So with Network Manager, it allows you to write from the command line, make all the changes to any of your network information or to your network devices that allows you to pull up network information. So you can see link status. You can see what the primary protocol is, whether that's static or DHCP. So the problem with the IF config files is the IF config files under Etsy, SysConfig, Network Dash Scripts. Yeah.  But I can't tell you how many times I've gotten lost going down that path. But yeah. But the the real problem with the IF config files is there are so many options. Some of them are a little bit obscure. Some of them don't really, some of them do multiple things. So it's it can be kind of a pain to try and keep a consistent network configuration across your entire enterprise. So what Network Manager allows you to do is allows you to set up connections and set your set your interfaces to come up or come down at certain times. So and you don't have to keep track of all those files anymore. Network Manager kind of handles that for you. In fact, if you've looked at REL7, REL8 and you go to the Network Dash Scripts Directory, there's usually a config file in there for like Loopback or or your primary Ethernet port that says that this this this interface is actually managed by Network Manager. Do not touch this file. Yeah. And I will even go as far to say, in Fedora 34, there's nothing there. So that's a great point. I will tell you that I can't speak to Fedora because I don't use that on my primary box. You can't edit the configuration files, even though they're managed by Network Manager. And it's fine. Like you can update the settings in there. And Network Manager, as though by magic, picks up the change because unlike the old days, I know, right? So in the in the olden days, like the REL6 days, when it was not the greatest, what ended up happening was we stood up like a parallel infrastructure for Network Manager under completely different directory and it had its own files actually under there they managed. But it didn't talk to the other files. So as soon as you ran Network Manager, like forked over to this other place and other set of configs.  And in REL7, we fixed that. So the config files are still there. And there is a database of stuff that Network Manager maintains elsewhere. But Network Manager also pays attention to those files. So if you go in and edit the files, it gets reflected in the the data that Network Manager has access to as well.  Network Manager knows all of those. And so all the stuff that was documented in the script documentation, which is what was the holder of all the lexicon of Rosetta Stone for those settings. You know, Network Manager does all that plus, plus, plus way more. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So so for the people that are like, I like editing files, you could start at the files. I'm not stopping you from editing files, do it. But be aware that there's more that you're missing by editing files. Even if that's the way we're doing it. You want to copy files to other boxes and that's cool too. Like Network Manager will be able to hang. But yeah, and it's a service as opposed to just a script that runs at boot time and then never runs again. Yes, that is kind of the advantage, right? Like having it there to manage all the things all the time, not just at boot or when you restart networking, which if you're SSH'ing into the box, that is a whole ball of lax of chicken and egg that you don't want to play. But yeah. So go ahead. I was just going to share my lab screen. Have a. So you guys can see. All right. So one of the other TMS on my and Eric's teams, there's Jarrett. He wrote this networking basics lab in his admin one on one series. So if you're interested, it's on lab.redhat.com. I'm sure it will paste. I'm about to get it short right now. And it's about using an MCI. But before we do that, just got a small. We can see that this box has two ethernet interfaces in S3 and in S5, right? We can see the settings that have been applied. And we can take a look at this. This config file and we could edit it and everything would be fine. Just like it was in the olden days, in ye olden days. So, yeah, so that was my first point. Eric, I'll let you kind of direct where we're going to go next. You want to go to talk about the cockpit integration or do you want to talk about an MCI? Well, let's start on the command line. Then we can kind of talk about cockpit. And while you're thinking about that, let me make sure that's there. There's not a separate module for networking, is there? I believe it's part of the base. But let's see what. I think it may be cockpit-network-manager. I don't think it's in my list. If we need to, I can pull up my home server. Yeah. I mean, it should be there. Let me just start it up. In theory, it should be there. Works on my machine. Exactly. Work on my laptop. I don't know what you're talking about. And hopefully you guys aren't listening to the rain pounding against my office windows. I'd rather have rain than the freaking Pajillion degrees and 4,000% humidity we have today. It's not raining. Yeah. Too many redirects. That's funny. This is a quick PSA to reset your password every so often. Well, he's using the lab instance. Yeah, on our other 500 error. Ouch. On our other ones, we actually reset it as part of the initial script. So like, that's not a problem. But these images are more than 90 days old. And so. All right. Here's what we're going to do.   Oh, that's right. You're rude. There we go. Problem solved. Yay, bad practices. Well, he did say he was going to be the crusty old sis admin. That's what we did. Yeah. He warned us. He did warn us. Right. I've got root. I'll make this secure. Marketing. I do see networking. So it's definitely part of the package now. It looks like. All right, so I'll leave this be because you said you wanted to do. CLI. So we'll just leave it. All right. So. Command is. And then. CLI. What do we want to do? You want to list what we got? Yeah, let's just see what connections we've got first. Okay. So if we do a tab, tab. There's our options for our next argument. We want to do a connection. We want to do a tab tab. No. That's not the same. Yeah, I love fashion completion. It's, it's like. The best. It's part of my Ansible build script for every one of my machines here at home. Oh, install. Ansible. Or just short. Yes. All right. So there's system. That's three. That's the one that we saw with this guy. IPA. This stands right here. And so one of the kind of. Interesting things about NFC Li at least. My perspective is that deals with the connections. Rather than IPs, which we're used to dealing with. And so. If we wanted to talk about this. Interface, we can refer to it as system E and S three. In. And that's a little bit of a change for. Us crusty system admins. So. All right. So. What is the system one versus with a wired one though? Why are the different colors? So wired connection one. Has not been. Configured at all. And that's why it's just like, there is a thing out there that you could plug things into, but it has nothing on it. And in fact, if we look at, let me just double check here. Or I say, in fact, let me verify that it actually is a fact. I'm in doubt. Go to system config network something. Oh, no, I was hoping it would have a. Connection name, but. That's also in the NFC Li info. So. So. Enes. Five is part of the lab. One of the steps is to give it an IP address. Yeah. Oh, so you want to run through the lab? Well, there you go. As well. All right. So. So. Jerry started off by just looking at the devices on the system. So NM CLI devices is looking by device. Name instead of by connection name. So that's ENS three ENS five. So it just kind of organizes the display a little bit different one. And then. We flip over to looking at the connection and. We run this command, which is. Connection add. Connection name is ethernet one. The interface that goes along with that is ENS five. And the type is ethernet. And. Notice that it says that it was successfully added here. Cool. So now if I look at the device. I see some of the properties on it that were different than last time. Right. Actually has like a name. Right. That said make a connection named ethernet one. So that's done here. And guess what for us crusty system administrators. We, it's ethernet one. Yeah, I was going to say. Yep. There you go. We got the config file. Right. So you can edit the config file too. And do the same stuff. All right. So in the next step, why don't we do, why don't we edit that file and because I think we're changing from DHCP to static. Okay. And we can show off how to, how to reload the config. All right. So what do you want to put here for boot proto? Let's do static. So fun fact. The only words for boot proto that actually means something are dhcp and bootp. Boot me. Boot p. Yeah. Which is another dynamic protocol for. Yeah. Which hasn't been used. I can't say I've ever run into a boot p network, but yeah. So we typically will see static. You may also see people use the word none. Because there is no boot protocol for dynamically assigning the IP on this address. But honestly, you could send it to like. Fluffy Mcbutter pants. And it would really mean static. The only words that actually do anything. No, now you have to try it fluffy Mcbutter pants. Put it in. Yeah. There you go. All right. What's, what's next? All right. Let's scroll down here in your. Your description. In the lab instructions. I didn't look up the IP address before we went into the config file. So it looks like we're on a 172 network. Yeah. 0.9. Prefixes 32. Right. We could also do a net mask. 255 255 255, whatever. I guess 255. 254. All right. And then I think that's probably all we absolutely need. Typically we'd also want to see. Maybe gateway. To be able to route outside of this network. Somebody, I'm going to play stump the chump with the other hosts. What else would you maybe like to see in here? Can't be this. It's not this. It's always this. Usually make sure there's a gateway in there. Yeah. Sometimes the DNS server DNS. Yeah. Can't be DNS. It's not DNS. It was DNS. Anyway. All right. So. There we go. And in the lab, they're actually using an MCLI to make those changes. Right. Oh, and he adds a gateway in there here. Let's just. Let's just do it an MCLI. Oh, we need to turn it on first. Maybe. That mess it up. Right here. I mean. Is the sky blue. Also true. Maybe fluffy Mcbutter pants is actually a known bug. So the box is still there. That's good. It's. Maybe fluffy Mcbutter pants isn't what you should have put in. What I like Chris short. It's my last show. I'll do what I want. You're not the boss of me anymore. So you are. So I would like to point out the error there. Yeah. Gateway cannot be set if there are no addresses configured. But you configured an address. Did you not. So let's, let's see if changing it to static actually. Fixes it. And that might be a hold of it from my knowledge of. Network scripts. Apparently fluffing with butter pants does break things. Yeah. Shocking. We'll put that in as a future request. Don't tempt me. All right. So now we'll add the gateway there. All right. So if we do a. IPA. So it looks like it assigned the right IP. And if we do an NM COI connection show. So there's my NS five and. Then to your point, Chris, now they're both green. Since they both have an IP, they have valid configurations and they've got a connection. All right. And when I. Sorry. Go ahead. Once you fast. No, you're fine. I'm trying to type and keep up. Same time. Yeah. All right. So they're. Both green. Green is good, right? Green is good. All right. It's not as much fun as red though. Sure. But in this case. It could be bad. All right. So we do a show on just not in general, but actually on an individual interface. Or connection as the case may be. It actually shows us all the additional settings that could be applied to this interface. So. Which in the past to Eric's. Point very early in the show. Right. You would have to know all of the. Configuration parameters to set in your individual file. Ahead of time. In order to utilize them. Whereas here you're showing them all. And then you can make changes with an MCI. But looking for my IP. So we're down here. IP. You have an IPv6. I do not. Well, there's a conversation going on in the chat that, you know, it's, it's a real shame that network manager is only for wifi. Yeah. Oh dear. Yeah. I mean, this is some of the stuff from the, you know, the legacy days. I'm sorry. Yeah. This was going to come up at some point. I mean, to be honest, as, as, as this admin, I. I was one of those people who was IFCFG only. Yeah. The algorithm that I used to run in the RL7. Seven, two, somewhere in that timeframe. It's like, let's let's try it. And I to be honest, I've never gone back. Although I should, I should caveat that I've never gone back until I started using the web UI. And the web UI is amazing using cockpit to manage my networking. So for my cluster here at home, right? It's all sitting on the one Dell R820 in the basement. And it's like, I need a bridge. I need multiple interfaces, da, da, da, da. It was all done through cockpit and it was just easy as it could be.  What IP do you want it to have? Oh, you want to use DHCP? Okay, that's fine. You know, set up a reservation for DHCP and the network devices and done. All went back. And I think a couple of shows ago, we were talking about how web console, AKA cockpit, like, it gets a bad rap because we tend to position it as like, oh, it's for the new guys. And in reality, like, it just makes life easier for so many things like, sure, you could do the 10 steps necessary to grow your LVM file system through the command line. I know the commands. You know the commands? We can do that. Or you can go into the web console. I like the thing. Click grow file system. There's a slider so you can grow it to whatever size you want, as opposed to being like, wait, how big is it again? Oh, now I need to go back out and like, look at the command to see how much space is left in the device. Oh, and rounding. Oh, yeah. Oh, my gosh. Oh, God. Oh, back when you said it. There's 760 megabytes of free space. Why? We had to round up to the nearest whole logical extent, which makes you think, I'm sorry, fail. Yeah. Yeah. So it's like, use the slider.  And I think networking is probably one of those two. Like it's a complex task that has a lot of parameters that you can work through the web console interface pretty easily, even though you're an experienced administrator. Did we get cockpit working on the system? We did. We did. With some of the newer versions of cockpit, there's even a performance graph on the networking configuration page. So if you're in there making changes, you can see exactly how your system's performing from the sending and receiving perspective. So programming note, massive line of thunderstorms are coming in here, should be here right as the show ends. So if all of a sudden I disappear, show's over. But in all seriousness, if we shouldn't lose power or anything, but after the last series of thunderstorms that were really big like this came through, I assume nothing anymore.  Mm-hmm. All right. Well, I live right next to, I'm on the hospital's grid, yet I went without power for two days. Why? Because the hospital has 72 hours of generator. So the power company knew it had two days, maybe three tops. I see in the chat Conan Kudu is just like chumming the trollwaters. So all right, here we are in the web interface for networking. You can even configure your firewall in there. I'm looking at like adding a bond or a team, like good night, that used to be 37,000 commands. Well, I remember having to instantiate bonds using Puppet. Well, not trivial. I mean, doing it on the command line with like loading your, adding the correct config to each component interface plus creating a new config for the bonded interface plus passing the parameters to the kernel for the kernel module like that. That is also not trivial. Yeah, none of that was trivial. Oh, out of VLAN? Man, I was just doing that the other day. That's pretty sweet. So my, my home lab is single server and it's big shock. It's running rel 8.4 and I use cockpit to manage everything on that box. Most of my lab itself is virtualized. So between setting up all the virtual machines through cockpit and doing all the networking, it was so nice after, after I was one of those sys admins who would grab a blog post off the internet that worked for me to get a certain thing set up like a network bond and I'd save it into Evernote or whatever it was. Just so I would never lose that blog post. I didn't want that person to go, you know what? I don't want a blog anymore. And then I'm screwed because I'd have to go read the documentation. I did the exact thing back when I was a sys admin. I used to like, I'm sure if I opened up my Evernote account now you would just find like cops of like daily notes and blogs and stuff that I read and you know, scripts that I knew were good templates to you know, copy in. Yes. Yeah. Just all kinds of stuff. Yeah. And then I went to set up, I went to rebuild my lab environment just a few months ago and it's like cockpit, networking, bonds. I want this interface. I want this IP range, activate, sat back and went, that's going to break, isn't it? A few seconds later, the cockpit UI refreshed. Everything worked. I was like, well, I'm just gonna log out. I set myself like two hours for this. It took two minutes. This is amazing. I'm just gonna go to sleep. So there's bonding and there's teaming. Do we want to talk about the difference or not? I mean, there's, functionally they operate very similar. It's taking more than we're going to face tying them together into a single connection. Bonding is the older method that uses a kernel module and has been around for a really long time. Teaming uses a daemon called teamD.  Oh, now. No, I can prove it. Bear, because it's doing a lot of life. It's doing the networking. Now you got to dedicate a core basically to networking, which let's face it, network devices have specialized ASICs, right? Like the fact that it's only taking one core is kind of special, you know? And if you're coming from Microsoft background, probably teaming is more similar to your existing experience because it looks really similar. The configuration settings and parameters that are passed is very familiar. If you're coming from Microsoft background on making network interfaces appear as one. And then they also have some additional aggregation modes if I remember correctly in teaming. Yes. Are not there in bonding. So. Yeah, I wish teaming were around when I had to do bonds. I'll just leave it at that. Minus the CPU in...  So I didn't necessarily care about CPU usage. I would just go get another blade server and fill it up with VMs. And teaming is still relatively new to REL. We introduced it in REL Enterprise Linux 7.  But we've carried it forward into REL 8 as well. Yeah. Cool. So what else can we do? So I was thinking that it might be a fun way to end my term on REL Enterprise Linux presents with an interview question that I always ask candidates. Mm-hmm. I'm here for this. All right. So I always... As long as I can ask you my favorite one. Okay. Okay. I'd be a leaf. I would be the color green. Okay. Fair enough. So I always ask interview candidates a time that they made a mistake and what they learned from it. So I'll go first. I'll break the ice, right? Rather than putting you an air-con spot. So in my younger days, I worked for Red Hat Training Certification. And I was putting together the update for a new release of RH300, the RHCE Rapid Track Bootcamp course. And I'd been given a week to update it from its previous release. It's not a small class. So I had been banging away at it for a while. It was due on a Monday. So of course I had worked through the weekend to do it because I'm terrible at planning things. And I was putting together the final PDF render so that I could upload it to the printer on Monday, like the print shop that did our book creation on Monday. Right. Yeah. It was like four in the morning on a Sunday. And it was rendering. And I was like, you know what? I'm just going to head and clean up my directory structure here with all my temp files and work in progress stuff. And you can imagine where I'm going with this story. Nothing ever goes wrong at 4 a.m. on a Sunday. No. Right. Right. So I deleted the files that I had finalized and were being rendered into PDFs thereby deleting all of the work that I had done in the last week. Let me guess. You didn't version control them. Oh, no. Such silly thing. I mean, granted, this is also a really long time ago. So our version control interface at the time was happy. CBS. Oh, okay. Yeah. Like there wasn't even subversion. That was a long time ago. But yeah. So I ended up like literally staying up for somebody two straight hours after that to recreate all the work that had taken me a prior week to create. Yeah. But so what I learned from that was. Number one. Don't do things at four o'clock in the morning on Sunday. And number two. Wait until you have your final work product complete. But before you do anything else. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Good point. I'll answer the question with. Yeah. Yeah. Don't take your coworker who just. Wrote a custom Pearl script. To help identify files that need to be deleted on the file system. Because that coworker could also have typoed it to list all files on the file system, which. The file system was a. Net app. And it literally filled up the net app, just listing files on the file system. Yeah. Don't start that script and then go to launch. Because when you fill up a storage device for a major, you know, company, it pretty much grinds everything to a halt at that point. And nothing else can happen. Until someone and goes and looks and says, why are all these onions full?  Get it out of here. Yeah. Oh, and then when the pager started going off, you're like, Oh yeah. No, when the pager went off, it was pretty much like. Well, it's time to go guys.  Thanks, Brad. By the way, Brad, yeah, your, your script just finished. Yeah. And everything's done. And well, it finished because it couldn't write anymore. All right. I'll share mine. There's, there's something bad about just working when you're not working. There's a theme here today because there was a time I was working as a sys admin and I had the very simple task of we want some archive files off of a Atlassian hip chat server because hip chat was, was this great, great instant messaging platform where the brilliant idea was you kind of had to reinstall it more or less. That was the upgrade process. Yeah. Although yeah. Yeah. Exactly. That was the upgrade process. Although folks got kind of savvy later on and realized that I could just clone the VM, do the upgrade and then just swing to the new VM. Right. So we did that. And then someone realized, oh wait, we didn't copy all the archive data over. So let's just, let's just power up the old VM. Grab those files, drop it on the new VM and you know, no big deal. Right. It's like, sure. Well, I'm going to lunch here in 15. So I'll tell you what, I'll just, I'll power up the VM. I'll come back. You can watch. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. While we're at lunch. Oh, the sudden hip chat goes down. Can't imagine why nothing I did. No. So we, we got to leave lunch early that day, came back to the office and go figure. I needed to change the MAC address on the old VM because we didn't want any interruption, any issues with the load balancer because that means opening a ticket with the networking teams or change the load balancer. So we'll just, we'll keep the same MAC address. We'll just swing it over to the new VM. No problems. Right. Well, brilliant. Me forgot to change the MAC address. So I shut it down, remove the networking interface completely and then used one of VMwares tools to get to the virtual machines disk that I am not touching this thing ever again, downloaded it to my desktop, uploaded it to the team drive and just off we go. I think I called in sick for the afternoon. It's just probably good idea. I'm not sure why hip chat just stopped working. Yeah. What did you learn? Don't use hip chat. Which is ironic since it's, I don't, I don't think it's, I don't think it's an active product anymore. I mean, I remember maintaining the hip chat server. It was nice for what it was, but the upgrade process was, was painful. Yeah. It was very painful because it literally meant re-installing. The first link is a Wikipedia page. Let's see. When did it go end of life? Oh, don't say. Maybe it's still. It's still. Seventh 2017 at last year and discontinued the cloud based hip chat replacing it with hip chat successor called stride. Okay. There you go. Good to know the client hosted. Hip chat data center continued to be supported. So there's. Essentially people. Still running it. Maybe. Hmm. I mean, there's still people running. Jabber and a variety of other things that are. Old. Sure. So my interview question. Yeah. LS has a lot of flags. Right. Just a simple LS. In Linux. What is the one. Letter that isn't a flag. Oh. Case does not matter. Correct. It could. Case does matter. Yes. So it's. You're including both upper and lower case in your question. Yes. Correct. I'd like to phone a friend. Well, don't. Using a Mac or anything. BSD based. I've got my 32 box here. I want to call the band page. Yeah. No, it's actually capital E. And that might no longer be the case to be honest with you. Cause that is kind of old info. But I actually answered that right. One time. Just by guessing. Yes. What is a letter that I've never used. Capital E. And yeah. That was it. I guess the correct answer for the interview. That's how I got the job. It was great. Though capital E is still not used. No more Casey knows. Okay. So I just said E. I think back then. And he now clarified. I think it's capital E. But yes, you're right. So neither E is used. But in BSD. Versions. Of OS is it is used. It is a flag. That I learned to. When I asked the question of someone that was a heavy Mac user. J is also not used. Ah, okay. So there's more than one letter. So I guess, I guess Scott, neither you or I got the job. No. And why is not used. Hmm. Really. I mean, what questions would you have to answer yes to for an LS? Would you like to list this file? Yes. Only if clippy pops. Oh, clippy. How I miss you. He was always happy to see me. Always. I was never happy to see clippy though. Right. Oh, I guess if we're doing this, I need to come up with question here. Yeah. Just think of your interview questions. Oh, goodness. Nothing like, nothing like coming up with something live. Yeah. Oh, you're going to ask something like what animal would you be? It'd be a wall. All right, Chris. I guess you got to answer that now too. I would be an alligator. Make me more as a hedgehog man. Yeah. Really? Yeah. Hedgehog. Quickly, but love love. Clippy is a window. I love it.  But he's one of who is one of our frequent watchers on the channel. Nothing wrong. Younger developer. I was going to say he must be younger because he thinks of get his old and I was talking about a time where get did not exist. Yes. What? Yeah. The windows 95 thing, he know it was the office. For many years, you had to deal with Clippy. Clippy often got uninstalled very quickly. Yeah. I mean, to be fair, like when we were younger and programming computers, we would just like take rocks and mash them together. That's how you got bits. Yeah. We would actually talk to the sand to make it do math. We would teach the sand math and then it would go form silicon and become a processor. Right. See, that's not fair. I can't make old people jokes because you just, Scott, you already claimed it. I mean, it's the hair. Yeah. That's fair. It's over. Well, we've got a little bit of time left. What is there any questions from the, from the live stream and anybody in chat? I haven't seen anybody, but anybody want to anybody got a question for either Scott or myself? Oh, that's right. Slack bought hip chat away from it last year. I did not know that. I think I remember that vaguely, or Atlassian something, something I think Atlassian got tried to figure out an exit for hip chat and it was Slack. Well, now everyone should be using matrix and elements. There should be no other platform out there. Now, so Narendra have actually asked about us using punch cards. So I have a funny story about that. I've never used a punch card in production for. I've never used a punch card either. But, you know, who did was my dad. Yeah. And we found a like punch card wreath in my grandmother's attic. And I was like, this is the coolest thing ever. And what they did was they just took punch cards and like folded them into cones and stapled them. And then they staple it all together into a circle. And then they'd use like a spray print to spray paint it. And it would be like gold or silver or whatever. Yeah. And so I said something to my dad about it.  Sure enough, he hand me the shoe box full of punch cards that was all those Fortran 73 programs from like his junior year in college. Don't shuffle them. Thankfully, this is after the University of Maryland had bought a card number. So you every card actually had a number in case you told me a story about the time that he did drop them at four in the morning because that's when he could get compute time at the computer center. And from then he like drew a diagonal sharpie line across the top of the deck. That way you could reorder them. And if one was out of order, there'd be like a sharpie black mark like way out of the way. You could just figure out where to line it back up again. Anyway, so I have these punch cards that are punched, which also is somewhat magical. And around it is the line printed program that was written for the cards that were punched for it. And each card has the instruction right now, too. But it's like it's it's pretty cool. And many years ago, well, actually not that many years ago, a long time ago, I wrote something for training. And much of my sugar in it was production for 17 years. And the reason I know is production for 17 years is because on year 17, they came to me and were like, hey, we need you to make a change. And you were the last one to work on this. And I was like, yeah, yeah, I did that in a weekend. Cool, awesome. And so I sent back a picture to my boss of me holding a punch card and an exacto knife. And it's like, this is what it feels like when you ask me to edit code from 17 years ago. Yeah. Yeah. So a long time ago, well, a not so long time ago was three years ago. So I've been at Red Hat for almost 20 years in the Red Dev. Really? Have you really? I have. I did have a short break in the middle for three years. But would you go? Yeah, I originally joined right now. No, I just needed to break. It wasn't you. It was me. Fair enough. So I originally joined Red Hat in July 2001. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. It was a very different story then. Yeah. I mean, it was just IPO'd. It IPO'd before I had joined. Yeah. And because it was IPO'd in 2000 or 99. I distinctly remember because I went to bootcamp in 99. I was like, what's the Red Hat stock price? 160. Next time I got to CNBC, a little like scrolling thing, because you know how they used to have them scroll across the bottom of the screen. There was Red Hat, you know, I should have bought it at three dollars a share because it was up to like one bajillion hundred dollars, you know. So when I joined Red Hat, the stock price was four dollars a share. The previous year it had been one hundred and sixty dollars a share. Yeah. And yeah. Let me just say that when I would tag along on sales calls, that was a lot of people let us know how unhappy they were about that. Yeah. So. Anyways, enough about stock history. Now it's not in a symbol anymore. So it just falls over the land. Fair point. All right. Anything else, Eric, you want to say anything woody or fun about the next show? You have no idea what we're going to be doing. I'm sure. But actually. Julie. As if I don't have enough tabs open here. I don't say you're opening another tab actually. Coming up. So we've got we've got a few different ideas. So here here for the next couple of months, we were actually looking at doing kind of a day in the life of a Red Hat engineer. So we talk about we talk about well all the time. We talk about some of the different features and how it fits into the industry. So we thought it might be fun to bring someone in from engineering to kind of talk about what what do you do every day? What's, you know, just a day in the life? We've also talked about building building system D unit files. And then a little known fact about rel 8 is in TPD is not the default anymore. It's crony nowadays. So those are those are some topics we're considering. And Chris and I are pretty much going to keep the show format exactly how it has been. So if there's any any interviews, if if there's any topics you'd like to see us cover, would love would love your feedback. Send send those to send those to Chris and send all of your hate mail to Scott and. Short redhead.com for your ideas, whatever I can get. Yeah, definitely. Redhead.com for all your hate mail, apparently. The OK question. Does E.B.P.F. help network people at all? Yes, very yes, because it's a kernel module, right? So and this is from, you know, a Kate's person. So like Kate, see it, see and I silly I'm. Going all in on E.B.P.F. is something that they've done recently. So could you like on a mailbox use E.B.P.F. The answer is yes. Anything that you can do with the kernel can be done in real. And E.B.P.F. I mean, it's incredibly powerful. It's a great way to do a lot with network policy and, you know, firewalling, whatever you want to do. That might be a good topic for us to touch on at some point. Or I'll write that one down too. So we typically work with E.B.P.F. as the incremental virtual machine for performance analytics. So there's actually in the BCC tools, there's you know, TCP latency and a variety of other networking information that we can gather from the E.B.P.F. virtual machine. And that's typically where I see it used the to the most benefit. Managing storage with Stratus. You know, just a topic. We already have a lab for it. That's true. Cool. We do. Awesome. Managing storage Stratus. Also, my list of ideas is doubled in size just today. Yeah, look at that. Hey, make me feel so bad. I have I bring nothing to the table and yet. Eric's over here just like cranking out show ideas. Hey, you've got you've got another show to create ideas for. OK, right. Old man yells at clouds. That's my new show. A.K.A. the level up out. So, yes, if you want to see Scott in the future, check him out on the level up hour. There's a link there. The whole premise of the level up program is to bring rel admins into containers. So we're containerizing systems administrators now. Maybe that's called an operator. But Scott is going to be handling the rel knowledge side of the level up hour. And we've teamed him up with Jafar Chirabi from my team who is he's been an essay and like Europe's like a number one essay, I feel like for you did that for years and now he's on my team as a technical marketing manager. He's literally an open shift genius. So putting them with Randy Russell, the head of GLS, you know, which is global learning services, putting the three of them together, I think we'll create a powerhouse show for the level up hour. So, yeah, I will. Be producing other shows, but yes, I've kind of handed that whole show, kitten, caboodle off minus the sweet sweet internet points. We'll keep those going as long as the team wants them. So, yeah, so Eric will be here in two weeks when we do the show again and hopefully we'll have something cool figured out for you. Hopefully, hopefully it'll be fine. Eric, Eric is a bundle of ideas. If my past working with him has any indication. That's good. You may not like them all, but they're all ideas. They're all ideas. He's great. I've never claimed any of them were good ideas. Ideas, right? Like when people say, hey, do you have any ideas? They're not judging quality at that point. Right. Dinosaur shooting laser beams. Go. But I think Chris and I could probably do an hour on on dinosaurs and laser beams. We could we could interview my five year old. He's he's an expert on dinosaurs and laser beams. So there you go. That'd be a good interview. I like I like turtles too. I'm sorry. I'm not sure how to follow that up. Yeah, no. So, Narenda, to answer your question, I will not be on the level of power unless they ask me to be. But Red Hat OpenShift is always watching. Aka the restream account. So, yeah. So, folks, if you have any questions, ideas for future shows, feel free to email me short at redhead.com. You can find me on Twitter, Chris Short, all squished together as one word. So two S's in the middle there. Eric, I don't know if you want to give out your Twitter handle or email or whatever. But yeah, I'm in the I'm in the live stream discord channel. You can find me on Twitter at it guy Eric. You can check out my website, it guy Eric dot com. I've got my branding identical across the board. So if if there's a platform, I'm probably on it under it guy. Eric, you can also catch the podcast at at pseudo show podcast and pseudo dot show is the website. I think that's all my I think that's all my handles. There you go. All right. Well, it's three o'clock, folks. I think we need to wrap this up because I'm sure I'm late for a meeting. And I'm about 61 minutes late for a meeting. So, oh, sweet. There's that. Thanks, everybody. Yes, take it easy. Stay safe out there, folks. We'll see you. We'll see you, Chris. Yeah.