With almost two hundred nations attending thousands of diplomats meeting and any number of complex technical issues to be negotiated cop 26 isn't easy for any media organization to cover. However genuine complexity doesn't provide an excuse for a mistake made by US giant CNN this week that's because in their cop 26 coverage they fell at the first hurdle. They set up shop in the wrong city the star host wolf blitzer tweeted this morning I'm now reporting from Edinburgh in Scotland where twenty thousand world leaders and delegates have gathered for the cop 26 climate summit cop by the way stands for conference of the parties it's the 26th time they have gathered to discuss and take action on this critical. Issue thank you wolf blitzer for clarifying what cop means unfortunately you should have focused on where it was taking place instead of what the acronym stood for ashes they're going to be an intern going you know having a real nightmare today because they've booked studio space fifty miles away from where the conference was was actually taking place. It's a pretty hard mistake to make because people have been referring to cop conferences by their host city for ages now so we know it as the Paris climate accords we talk about Copenhagen we know it by the cities and Glasgow sounds very different this belt very differently is pronounced very differently from Edinburgh so I'm trying to work out was this a genuine mistake which is so boneheaded that it's frankly embarrassing that. An organisation the size of CNN could conceivably make it that nobody went hang on are you sure it's in Edinburgh and not the other big city that's in Scotland and or maybe was it deliberate it was a sense of going okay space accommodation all this stuff's our premium in Glasgow at the moment. Edinburgh a bit more empty not so far we can shuttle guests there and back enough. You know for us to get content out of it and we get the big castle in the background I'm trying to work out if this is actually a mistake or not because the mistake would be so stupid as to seriously stretch my credibility sorry my credulity not credibility although CNN have lost that to. Yeah I mean I suppose their defence would be yeah there's shortage of space in Glasgow but you thought if they made a decision on that basis also don't set Joe Biden flew into Edinburgh apparently so they wanted to be there when the plane landed I don't know. But you thought they would then be quite careful in what tweets they sent out to make it you know if we're gonna set up shopping Edinburgh we met we better make it really goddamn clear that we know the conference is in a different city. He definitely failed this morning was only got rinsed onto it. The thing the thing you've got to understand is that you know Americans are dealing with a much faster country back home all right the distance between Glasgow and Edinburgh is what they drive for a taco bell that's one of the reasons why their emissions are so high so I genuinely think that there is a chance that Americans will like.  I don't know.


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Welcome, everyone. Thank you so much for joining me to talk about open source communities. I'm really excited to dive into ambassador and contributor programs with you today. So let me start off by introducing myself. My name is Caitlin Barnard and I work in developer and community marketing for open source currently at Kong. For those of you who might not be familiar with Kong, we help manage all of your API's and microservices through our open source API gateway. API testing and service mesh solutions. So prior to that, I was at CNCF where I worked heavily in the Kubernetes community and still do. I'm the co-chair for SIG docs where I lead the Kubernetes blog subproject. I also work from home with my favorite coworker Bruce. I always like to throw in a dog picture to help get everyone's attention, but I do hope you are a little bit more excited to hear me talk about work than he is. So today I'm going to be talking to you about the basics of building an ambassador program and a contributor pipeline from scratch. I will say a lot of the themes that I'm going to touch on today will be relevant no matter where you are in your community building process. So when it comes to community building, I very much believe that there is no one size fits all solution. So today a lot of what I'm going to be talking about is my personal approach to community building based on two examples of ambassador programs that I've run. Cloud Native Ambassadors and Kong champions. So Cloud Native Ambassadors is CNCF's program. It's currently at 106 ambassadors. The first time I did the talk, it was actually at 50 ambassadors. So I'm going to be referencing examples from the earlier days of the program. I also find that oftentimes this example can be a little bit intimidating for people who are just getting started with these programs because CNCF has experienced type of growth over the past few years and they have a pipeline of contributors from 19 projects now. So I'm also going to compare that to a newer program that I'm working on now, which is Kong champions. So we started this in May 2019 and are currently at nine champions across five countries. So let's say you're thinking about starting an ambassador program. When does it make sense? I oftentimes see leadership teams saying that they want to have an ambassador program, but they haven't really fully thought through the goals and how this fits into their overall community strategy. And that's a really difficult position to be put in as a community manager to have to manage those expectations, especially when it might not be the right fit for your business or your community at this time. So there's two indicators that I like to look at before I try to start one. The first is a clear path to contribution. So your contributor pipeline has to be really healthy before that can feed into your ambassador pipeline because most of the time these are the candidates you're going to be pulling from. So you really can't have active ambassadors until you have active contributors or users. And then the second is, do you have internal buy-in to support the program? Ambassadors require a huge amount of support and resources from you internally to make them effective, and is your organization willing to support that? Do they understand the value of the program? And then at the end of the day, do they care about supporting the community in that way? So I'm going to dive into both these indicators further, but I do want to first start talking about goal-setting for the programs because this is going to affect internal buy-in as well. All right. So setting goals for the program is the number one thing I like to do because it, one, ensures that it fits into our strategy. And then two, it helps get buy-in because that is what our entire team is then agreeing to work towards. So these can definitely differ between communities, but for me it's almost always these four. One, we want our ambassadors out in the community creating awareness for what the technology is. Two, we want them educating the local and global community on how to use the technology. Three, we want them helping to expand that contributor pipeline that we talked about by sharing their journey and helping others get started. And four, we also want them to grow personally and professionally by being part of our community because at its core, this program really should be rewarding to them. So now that we talked about high-level goals for an ambassador program, I want to take a step back and dive into that first indicator that I mentioned, which was your contributor pipeline. So contributor pipeline is a huge factor in the health of your open-source community to begin with, but it's also really difficult to build an ambassador program until this is done really well. So let's dive into how to build an effective contributor pipeline. The key tenet in a lot of the things that I'm going to mention here is really having a clear and accessible contributor documentation. So this starts with your contributor guide. This should really outline the ways for contributors to get involved and then what the entire contributor process looks like from start to finish. The contributors guide should also include a clear review process because the worst experience for a contributor is they do all the hard work of contributing something and then their issuer PR gets stuck in limbo for months with no answer. So the review process should be clearly documented straightforward. They should understand when to get a response to their contribution and then know who to ask for if they don't. There should also be a place for contributors to get help and ask questions if they need it. So this is something like a Slack channel or weekly office hours where they have that open line of communication to other contributors and maintainers of the project as well. And then finally, it's really important to make sure this is all in a central location in my opinion, something like GitHub, Confluence, whatever your central community hub is. There should be that one stop shop where any newer existing contributor can go to get that information. So once we have our documentation, let's talk a little bit about how to get new contributors into the project and there's two pieces I want to talk about here. So the first is overall project awareness. And this is where someone typically like myself in developer marketing comes in or individuals in DevRel can help with this and it's how to market your project to get more awareness. The project is most likely solving a problem in some way. So we tend to share that information through things like thought leadership, tutorials, partner webinars, meetups, conferences and speaking, stuff like that. Basically anything you would do to get a user is a great way to get contributors as well. And then partnering with relevant open source communities. So is your project written and go? For example, you can target go developers. Whatever relevant technologies you're leveraging, embrace those communities. And just to be clear, this isn't meant to sound like poaching contributors from another project, but more so expanding opportunities for them to get involved with other relevant technologies in the ecosystem. And these should also be communities that you're contributing back to. So for example, our engineering team at Kong contributes back to the projects that Kong is built on top of like Lua and Open Resty, but we do also get a lot of contributors from those communities as well because it's a shared technology that it's built on. And then the final piece here is recognition, but I want to get to that on the next slide. All right. So how to incentivize contributions and recognize your contributors. These people are really contributing their time for free. So how can you thank them and make them feel seen? And then similar to what I said with ambassadors before, give them the opportunity to grow personally and professionally. So at Kong, we have the concept of code contributors and non-code contributors. You might be familiar with this. If you've worked in the Kubernetes community before, we also talk about it this way. So code contributors quite literally contribute code to your project repo and then non-code contributors create content like videos, blog posts. This can manifest in ways beyond content, but for today I'm specifically going to be referencing content. Both are equally valuable to our community, but they do contribute in different ways. So we like to balance the recognition depending on the contribution type and then what is important to that type of contributor. So a few things here stay the same, but I'm going to talk about what we do for each. So for code contributions, we do things like contributor shirts. If your PR is accepted to the Kong repo, you will receive a custom contributor shirt. We do different designs each year. Contributor perks. So these are things like discounted access to Kong summit. We do special events at the summit itself for contributors. This is our yearly community and user conference. We also do first look at new features that are coming on our roadmap. Anything that can have exclusive access, we like to give that to our contributors first. Contributor spotlight. So this highlights contributors in our newsletters and blog posts. We'll eventually expand this to fuller interview styles like a blog post or video series on our ambassadors and contributors. We did a similar series at CNCF called Meet the Ambassadors. It's a video series you can check out. Hacktoberfest. So this has actually been a great way for us to get new contributors to the project and awareness. But we also do a fun piece of swag exclusive for the event each year as well. And then finally, a clear path to take on a larger role. So what does it look like to go from a contributor to a maintainer? What does it look like to go from a contributor to a champion? This really goes back to that personal and professional development piece on how you can give people a clear roadmap to taking on more responsibility. So then for non-code contributions, in my opinion, these are just as valuable as code because people are bringing in new users and awareness to your project. So for them, we do things like we have custom swag actually for non-code contributions. So we do like a custom gorilla for non-code contributions, a t-shirt for code contributions, and you can kind of collect them all. Contributor perks are typically the same, but contributor spotlight is a little bit different. So we amplify the content that they're creating on our channels, retweeting, cross-posting, guest blogging. Really, however, we can help get more eyes on their content. And then finally, the clear path to take on a larger role. So this might look a little bit different depending on how your project is set up, but this could be contributed, that contributor to Champion Pathway or a special role like, for example, in Kubernetes, the blog sub-project lead is a dedicated non-code contributor role. So now that we've got our goals, we've got our contributor pipeline, how do we start building our ambassador program? And there's four initial things that I like to do here. The first is reaching out to those people in your contributor pipeline. So not only are they your potential ambassadors, but you can find out what they would want out of an ambassador program and build around that. So for CNCF, we started with people already doing these things on their own and establishing the community. For example, hosting Kubernetes meetups and then built the program around that. For Khan, we started with our most active contributors and users of the project and then built around them. The second thing is do your research. So what are the communities exist in the space? What's working for them? What isn't? How can you differentiate? Because a lot of people are part of multiple communities and you don't want to have an exact replica of the same program somebody is already in. But you also don't necessarily need to reinvent the wheel for your program either. Third is establishing the value of being part of the community. So what value are you providing that those other programs don't? This isn't the ambassador's full-time job. So it's really important to clearly communicate what exactly it is that they're getting out of it. And then fourth, figure out how you're going to promote your program and get new ambassadors into it. So we already talked about contributor pipeline, but I also want to expand on that a little bit more. And that's to say, to reach out to people directly. It's a really great way to reach out to people who are beyond just your GitHub contributors that you know. So for example, we reach out to those users who have written blog posts on us or people who we meet at conferences who we think might be a good fit. People really like to feel special and invited. So it doesn't hurt to ask them because worst case scenario, they say no. And at the end of the day, it might provide some really useful feedback on how you can make your program more compelling as well. Awesome. So when first starting out, these are the key pieces that I like to put in place at the very beginning. So the first is a program overview. And this is similar to the contributor guide in the sense that it should outline what it means to be an ambassador, what do they get out of it, and how this benefits the greater community. And then located in that central community hub that we talked about as well. The second is requirements and expectations. As I've mentioned a few times now, this isn't their full-time job, but you should still set clear expectations prior to someone joining the program, whether that's you're expecting one blog post per quarter, hosting two meetings per year, basically how much time should they expect to be contributing to this role. And then what happens if they don't or are unable to meet those requirements at any point? Third is a code of conduct. So these people are acting on behalf of your organization and your project and working in a diverse community of individuals. So a code of conduct really helps set forth the values that you want your community representatives to adhere by and helps create a more welcoming community. So it also provides documentation in case a complaint is issued against an individual on how to respond appropriately to that. And then finally resources and training. So ambassadors need to know what they're talking about. We like to provide content for this in the form of slides, recordings, demos that they can use in presentations, as well as monthly calls where we help familiarize them on what to do with the technology and help train them on it. All right. So then there is some additional elements in the day-to-day management of the community. I'm going to talk through these a little bit more high level today than I typically do, but I'm happy to dive into these further if anybody is interested after this talk. So first is the application barrier, sorry, the application process. And what we typically do with this is figure out the lowest barrier to entry. So for us, it's a Google form, but keep in mind that can't be accessed everywhere. And if that is the case for the tool that you choose, make sure that there's an alternative process in countries where this might be blocked. So after that, then it's time to set up some review sessions with the decision-making committee and decide a couple of things. So how many applicants can you reasonably accept into the program based on resource and budgetary constraints? What are the admissions periods going to be for your ambassadors? And then what qualifies someone for acceptance? Because having these clear review cycles and requirements with status updates helps set up expectations for the community and then they know when to accept a response and what a reasonable acceptance period looks like. Onboarding. So I typically do this three different ways. One is with a detailed welcome email and this is everything that the ambassador needs to know to get started. So this is where you can reiterate the role, expectations and code of conduct. A monthly onboarding call. So this is just great to get some, not necessarily in person, face-to-face time, but talk to the ambassadors live, get to know them, do an actual onboarding call live over a call, and then onboarding decks. So it's a lot of information to take in up front, especially in an email. So I like to also reiterate this in an onboarding deck so ambassadors can go back and reference that at any point. Monthly ambassador meetings. So for CNCF, we used to do these as exclusive for ambassadors where they're a mixture of project updates as well as knowledge share. So for example, a couple of ambassadors can come on and share meet-up best practices. For Kong, we do them a little bit differently. They are not specific to Kong champions, but they are actually for the whole community. We do them one of two ways. So it's either a demo from community members on open-source technologies outside of Kong or a Kong project update with demos from our engineering team and sneak peeks on upcoming releases. We're also working in a global community, so I like to make sure that we have clear channels for communication. They're not just for updates specifically, but also so ambassadors can connect with each other as well. So things like private and public Slack channels, an email alias, a GitHub repo for info that requires more transparency and accountability within the community, and then discourse for things like evergreen questions that impact other users as well. And then finally, special perks and benefits of the program. We talked a lot about incentivizing your contributor pipeline, but I'm also always thinking of ways to remind our ambassadors that we really appreciate what they're doing for the community. So this is things like ambassador swag. We make sure ambassadors have custom swag for all the events that we're at. At CNCF, we used to do front row keynote seating for ambassadors, face-to-face meet-ups. Anytime we are at an in-person event, things like a happy hour or breakfast to give them that VIP experience whenever we're face-to-face. At CNCF, we had free access to exams and workshops so ambassadors can take the CKA and CKAD exams at no cost to them, and then meet-up reimbursements and sponsorships if that's something within your budget. So I'm sure this list will continue to grow, but this is just a snapshot of some of the ideas of more tangible perks of these programs. So finally, I want to talk a little bit about measuring success because at the end of the day, what the higher-ups care about are what the business impact of the program is. So the problem with that is oftentimes developer advocacy and ambassador programs can be really hard to communicate the impact of. So I like to specifically measure the impact of each program. Another thing I see, it's oftentimes really easy to measure output. For example, the number of blog posts put out by an ambassador. But I personally prefer to measure quality over quantity. So a few examples of this are the growth of the number of ambassador applications and then how many of those are converting to actual ambassadors. Number of unique blog post views on content written by ambassadors.  Meet-up attendance. It's almost as a CPM model, for example.  Which kind of math-wise looks like the cost to send the ambassador there divided by the number of people who attended. I also like to set a baseline with this compared to other events like trade shows. You probably have this number for trade shows as well already. And then finally, downloads. This is really my ideal way to measure if you do have a setup in place to attribute your marketing efforts to downloads. Your marketing or community efforts. But this is really difficult to do in open source right now. All right. So with that, that's all I have for today. I know this is a lot of content to go through in the last 20 minutes. So I'll make sure to put the slides up later with more details after this. But we have a few minutes left now if anyone has questions. All right. So we have one in here. This is a great question. So how effective has Hacktoberfest been to getting permanent contributors? And this, I will say we definitely have a spike in contributors during Hacktoberfest. And I don't know the exact numbers off the top of my head, but you know, not all of those are going to stay around as permanent contributors for sure. But happy to look into what the actual number is on that for you. Awesome. So another one in here is recommended tools for measuring success. So my advice here is actually use whatever you have in place already. You know, assuming you might already have things like Google analytics, some type of social media management tool. I try to keep it really, you know, just really in line with what other members of my team are using. So we're kind of speaking the same language. Another question in here is for those of us who are just in the beginning, what should be the main focus? So in my opinion, what that should be is figuring out, you know, kind of who your star contributors, contributors are already. So who are the people in your community that you want to build this program around? And sorry, I'm making the assumption here about ambassador programs. And then also researching the other programs out there. So what are the, you know, are there relevant technologies in your space that already have an ambassador program? How can you kind of differentiate and expand on that? Well, I think that's all we have right now. Thank you all so much for joining me today. Like I said, I will put the slides up later with more information and then I will be over on the Slack channel if you have any more questions. I'm also available on Twitter if anything comes up after this. So thanks everyone.


Like maths equations logic has a structure. It looks a bit like 1 plus 2 equals 3. On one side of the equation we have things we already know or agree upon. On the other side is an answer that's true so long as the numbers on the other side don't change. In logic an idea is called a premise, which can be put together with other premises in such a way that they lead us to a conclusion. One premise might say magnets attract iron. The other premise might be this object is made from iron. Without seeing it you can logically say that the magnet will attract this object. But what if you swap around the information, say magnets attract iron and this object is attracted to magnets? Can you then say that this object is made from iron? Unfortunately not. It still looks like logic but the conclusion no longer works. Magnets not only attract iron but other metals as well such as nickel. This broken logic is called a logical fallacy. This particular example is a formal fallacy because its form looks similar to logic but is false. In Latin and in legal circles it's called a non sequitur which means does not follow. It's easy to mistake a logical fallacy for the real deal if you're not careful. People do it all the time, sometimes by accident and sometimes to fool you. Knowing the structure of a logical argument is important. You wouldn't make the mistake of thinking 3 plus 2 equals 1. Rules are rules after all. Yet breaking the rules of logic can make an answer seem right when it isn't.


Good morning, John. I'm not sure if you know about days since Hank Green started a new thing.com. It's a joke among some people on Twitter who have noticed that the amount of time between when I started a new thing and when I start another new thing is often not a long period of time. It kind of currently stands at seven days since we launched the Life's Little Lies TikTok. Now, this is a funny thing, but it's also something that I'm simultaneously, like, proud of and terrified of. Like, what exactly is wrong with me? And the website actually has a tiny little link at the bottom that shows you all of the things I've done. Terrifying, but an impressively long list. On the other hand, it's riddled with failure. In 2020, for example, there are 11 listed projects. Only four of them are still, like, existing things. Those three of them were jokes, like my only fans for Pelican pictures. Anyway, because I have this habit, people often ask me about, like, how do you get ideas? How do you start things? And I can't tell you how to have an idea, but I can tell you what an idea is, which is a thing that I think a lot of people get wrong. So let's walk through the three main stages of intentional creation. The thought, the idea, and the thing. Thoughts are not ideas. Here's an example of some thoughts. Gosh, we sure do need to raise a lot of money for a maternal center of excellence in Sierra Leone. Creators at dftba.com seem to be having a lot of success with socks lately. Wow, I am amazed by the number and quality of independent artists out there. Those are not things that have anything to do with each other, but more importantly, they're not going anywhere. They're not pointing in a direction. I find it useful to have a list of thoughts that might go somewhere. I don't know where they're going, and know you can't see it. It is a silly place. Ideas are when you combine some thoughts together, and at the end of the combination, you have an objective you would like to accomplish and a way to get there, some kind of path. For our example, an idea might be what if there was a sock subscription, where every month you got a sock from a different independent artist, and 100% of the profit went to charity. There's a goal there, and there's a bunch of thoughts that we think are true that are going to help us get to that goal. We have combined our thoughts together to have an objective and a way to get to it. And then there's the part where you make the idea a thing. The implementation. The work. The Awesome Socks Club has now donated over $200,000 to the Maternal Center of Excellence in Sierra Leone. But getting it to this point and continuing to keep it alive is a whole thing. Like, there's a lot of people involved. I just happened to know a person here in Missoula, Montana, who's in the sock business. Like, I don't know if we could have done it without her. And of course, in the act of implementation, your idea changes. Like, we originally thought that our artists were going to be one of our main marketing vehicles, but then we realized that we didn't want to share all of the socks. We wanted most of them to be surprises. And it would be weird for artists to be marketing a thing that they couldn't show to people. So we changed our marketing strategy to include a bunch of TikTok people who I had met recently. And now it's its own existing thing, but it's still an idea. But also, and this is often the case and how businesses happen, it started to spin off new ideas. Like, we have this thing now and it's working. So what else can we do with that? Which is why I've never done this before. I am looking for a product lead and co-founder for a new business that I want to start. There's an application for that job in the description. Let people who you think are cool and interesting and might want to work on something exceptionally weird know about it. John, I'll see you on Tuesday.


I was doing a lot of drugs and alcohol, just kind of living it, living it up. And dude, I ended up homeless for a while. This is just like just before trading pretty much. So it's relevant, but I ended up homeless, man. Like, yeah, dude lived behind a Walmart for a few days. It was like, we're getting real here again. We're just gonna get into what's real.  Today we have a very special guest, Roland Wolf. So Roland, thank you for coming on the podcast today, man. Oh man. Thanks for having me. I've actually listened to the last few of them. Um, I love what you guys are doing over there. I think it's really cool and kind of, uh, getting different points of views from different traders. So when Alex asked me to come on, I jumped at the opportunity and, um, I always jump at the opportunity of talking to short sellers in particular, bro.  And, uh, and for me, I'm like, I need to learn us, uh, cause for those who don't know, I'm primarily a long trader and, uh, and I, and I'm in the same space that y'all are in. And so I always, I always tell my people, like, you have to know about short sellers. It is huge. It is like a huge, huge, huge part of, of small cap and just trading in particular. So, so I always jump at the opportunity to come on and, um, and pick the minds of short sellers when I can, because I know that it helps me in, in terms of my game and the edge that I have. A big part of my edge has been the fact that I'm a long trader that understands short selling and understands where they like to live. And I try to be in harmony with y'all to be, to be honest. I'm not, um, I never saw it as me versus you guys. I saw it as like most of the traders that I've respected over time have been really, really good short sellers. And because of that kind of everything I've done as a long has been, has been built upon trying to get as far away from the short sellers as I can, and then making sure that when they are selling, I'm selling, you know, for the, for the most part, at least the traders that I respect. Um, and then of course being there for squeezes as well to me has always just been a bonus, you know, a lot of people are always looking for a short squeeze and how do you find the short squeeze? I'm not always necessarily looking for that, man. I'm just looking to be in harmony with everything. And if I am, when y'all are being squeezed, hopefully I have a few shares left. That's the way I've always looked at it. So that's, that's kind of, I think what's given me a little bit of longevity in terms of what we do. There's not many longs in our space who are able to, to play the game. You know, yeah, that's a very good point. That's why I actually want to have you on as well. Cause I want to learn more about the long perspective. It's because, you know, understanding both sides of the trade could almost give you a bigger edge on the trade as well. So it's actually very interesting because most people don't know it's actually the first time we're talking together, like ever in video chatting or whatever. So I kind of wanted to get to know you a little bit more, bro. So how'd you get started trading? What is your trading history like? Man, you know, you and me actually are kind of similar, similar time frames, I think in terms of, in terms of, in terms of our career and whatnot. Um, I started in 2016, uh, the whole idea was I had a son and I had a daughter on the way. So I just wanted to supplement my income, man. I didn't know, I didn't know where it was going to take me or anything. But for me, it was just, I had a small amount of money. I put it into Barrett Gold. I Googled cheap stocks because I intuitively knew early on without capital. Um, trading big cap stocks and stuff like that wouldn't get me very far. Uh, so I Googled cheap stocks. I put half of, I think 800 bucks that I had into Barrett Gold and other half in a bank of America. And the Barrett Gold doubled, bro. Like, uh, but it took about eight months. So by that time I had a daughter on the way and I'm thinking to myself, yeah, how are we going to go ahead and supplement my income, um, going forward. So that led me kind of down the rabbit hole. I saw my money double and Barrett Gold over the span of a while. And then I just Googled man and got on YouTube and it took me down this rabbit hole that got us to where we are today. Um, are you still in that Barrett Gold position? No, bro. I think they changed their ticker name to gold now. I think it is gold, but, um, I don't even know where it is, bro. You know, it's just one of those, it was one of those kind of cool things that opened my eyes like, whoa, this money doubled. I did nothing with it. I didn't even look at it. You know, I didn't realize there was this whole side of the game, which I fell in love with basically immediately, dude, because, um, I joined an alert service, you know, that was the first deal, uh, Tim as they were, dude, Sykes popped up for me back in 16 when I started Googling and, um, and in my head, I was like, okay, well, we can copy these trades and pat our account while we learn what we, you know, learn how to trade. So go ahead. It's a little wild that, that you mentioned that, but in 2016 was the exact same time that I found Sykes as well and was in the same space as you for the same reasons. I had son that was a, that was being born and born and then daughter comes along and I'm like, dude, I gotta, I gotta change something. And man, yeah, it's pretty inspiring to hear that. Dude, it's, uh, so that's, that's how it started NAVB. And I, and I feel you bro, there's a lot of dads out there. Um, we kind of come from a different perspective. I feel like, uh, than some of the young cats and we can get into this later and stuff like that. But, but I was like chatting with, with dads too. And, and people that are kind of come from the same situation as me, but, uh, before you were trading, what'd you, what did you do? Yeah, dude. Um, so I played soccer man, my whole life, like growing up, that was my, that was my deal. Um, I was a high level soccer player. I had a full ride scholarship to, uh, Boston university and always well, dude, um, I wanted to play professionally. I got to do so for a very small period of time, but I went down to South America after college. I didn't finish college halfway through. I left. I always knew college wasn't for me. School really wasn't for me. Um, something kind of a confet, a competitive environment is what I needed, but, uh, South America and then Croatia ultimately in my early 20s where I ended up getting hurt. And that was it, dude. That was kind of the, um, that kind of led me into my mid 20s, which was darkest shit, man. Like without soccer, I didn't know at the time, man, but, and I've worked through all of it obviously by now, but without soccer, I was left with this huge void.  And, and so I was just left with a big old void and a party for the first time in my life, you know, I was doing a lot of drugs and alcohol, um, just kind of living it, living it up. And, um, dude, I ended up homeless for a while. This is just like just before trading pretty much. So it's relevant. But I ended up homeless, man. Like, um, yeah, dude lived behind a Walmart for a few days. It was like, we're getting real here again. We're just gonna get into what's real. And, um, and then I ended up getting sober, dude, going to rehab cause I got hooked on pain pills after soccer, man, with my ankle. That's crazy. Real, real bad, dude. Opiates happened to my brother too. He was also a high level player. This would have been, I was 24 years old, bro. So 24. Um, how were you supplementing income at that point? I was homeless. There's not a lot of income, but I mean, yep. My dad's a personal injury attorney and, um, and I've worked on and off there my whole life, dude. So like, so that was kind of, I've always had a steady thing. And then after soccer, my whole goal was especially, and this is before I had kids, but my goal was then maybe just go to law school, take over the family firm, kind of live that life and stuff like that. And dude, honestly, it just, school wasn't for me, bro. I don't know how else to say it. Like I just couldn't sit, I couldn't even imagine even now the whole time I was dragging my feet, dude, you know? So I was working the nine to five. It was, uh, making like a 800 to a thousand pre-tax per week, which is fine, bro, you know, it's like a decent living for, especially for a 20 year old. With nothing but, uh, parties and whatever. So there's a big 2012, 2011, basically, 2010, 2011, 2012. Yeah. Uh, so yeah, pain pills, dude. And then that took me to street drugs and stuff like that.  Like I, I wasn't raised like that. So I ended up in this position. Um, and then I got clean. I lived in a sober, uh, sober living for a year. Help another dude stay sober. Cause that's, I think that's a very important transition that I don't want to skip through it because you went from pain pillars, pain pills, drugs.  Are you struggling to find the right stocks to trade? Are you making money for one, two, maybe three weeks in a row and losing it all in one day? Are you struggling with sizing up on your trades? Well, I found that the best way to fix these problems is to trade alongside a millionaire trader live on stream with no delays. My investing clubs, new live trading stream is the missing puzzle piece to your trader every day at 9am. I share my screens, find the best stocks to trade and build my watches live. Then I execute those trades live on screen. It's like you're sitting right next to me as I trade every single day. Due to the high demand of the screen share, we only have a few spaces available every single month. So if you're seeing this now, it means that space is still available. And here's the best part. If I do not generate $20,000 in realized gains per month on live stream, you do not pay. So go to myinvestingclub.com slash live trading to get 50% off your first month on the live stream. Spaces are limited and filling up quick. What do you have to lose? This may change your life. It wasn't even me, dude. It wasn't even me. If it was just me, I don't even know.  You feel like no one's there to, to get your back, help you out. And no one cares about you. And cause all that really matters. Your, your vision is so narrow is this drug that you need just to be good. Uh, so you don't get really sick, bro.  That's pretty much what happens.   I wouldn't mess with them. So I, so there was no like running away. There was nothing, dude. It was just my moms and my, my big brother. Um, and I just remember feeling relieved, dude, like that I do. My mom looked like an angel when she came in, you know what I mean? I was like, this is thank God. I just got chills thinking about this moment. Um, yeah, dude. And she, they took me to a, to a, uh, detox spent a week there.  And then for a year, I lived in a sober, sober living community, bro. And I didn't think I'd be there long, you know, as soon as the time was up for me to go, I figured that's it. I'm going to bounce, uh, which was after three months, I stayed there for the next seven, uh, eight months, dude, because, because it was safe. And I had an opportunity to help people, you know what I mean?  You have to like get into your psyche. You have to make amends.  So, so it was, it's one of, it's one of those things that, uh, I had a girlfriend before that she's now my wife. She left me because of all the shit, you know, we got four kids now. So I, I got sober, uh, a year later, I was looking, looking good, not going to lie was like lifting a lot and as healthy and as spiritually fit as I've ever been in my life, bro. Um, that, that's the foundation upon which I've built this next life. It's, this is, I'd say my third chapter, bro. This is like my third chapter because the first was the soccer life.  And this is like my third act, which is family man with my kids. Trader, then I didn't want to be a trader dude. It just kind of came on to me. I guess you professional bass fisherman in your local HOA. Yes, sir. Ripping lip, ripping lips in the lake all day, bro. No, it's, that's, that's kind of the journey, dude. And then like I said, had, had my, uh, got my wife back or we got married, had our kid, uh, second kid came about, so let's supplement the income. And now we're trading dude, you know what I mean? So NAVB and I think, I think that was the ticker. I think it was NAVB, um, or NWBO. I forget which one it was, but that was my first trade ever. Right.  When you get into this world, you just don't know anything.  And I'm like, these people know what's up. You know what I mean? Someone shouted out and, uh, NAVB, I literally just went on E trade because I had opened it. I didn't have charts. I didn't have E trade pro even. I was on E trade.com bro, and I bought it and then I was just clicking refresh over and over again. The price kept going up. I was up 30%. I went in the chat. I'm like, Hey guys, I'm up 30%. It's my first trade ever. They're like, sell it, sell it. I sold it 30% bro. 10 minutes. You know what I mean? I was like, this was 30% 10 minutes. I did the math, bro. I'm like, Barrett gold took, took damn near six, eight months. I'm like, I just hit 30% in 10 minutes. I don't, I hit the grail. The holy grail bro, you know? Bro, that's so funny. That's so funny. You guys, I have a similar story to that too, because my first short trade ever was 2000 shares of a stock called VGGL. I shorted it at $4 and within like a few minutes, it went down to like 350. I made $1,000, like the fastest I've ever made. And like my life changed forever, bro. I was like, that's it. Like I found it game over. Do you know what mine was? What was it? Drys. I longed dries when it was five 2016 dries. Yes. Yes. I was listening to Michael Goode webinars and I love that guy. That's a guy I want to get on the pod as soon as we can. I love that dude. He's like, he really is, but he was talking about drys in a webinar and I went, sounds like a great buy. And here I long it gaps up overnight and I sell it. And I'm like, oh my gosh. And I do the same thing. I started doing all the math in my head. I was like, if I could just repeat this and then coming days runs all the way to 120. Little bit of hope because a lot of people start trading. They're really skeptical, right? I mean, at least I was skeptical that I didn't know that the issue was possible. I thought that the way to make money in the market was like the Warren Buffett way. You buy a company, you hold it forever and then maybe you make 30% after five years. I didn't know day trading existed. So I think once people try it and they have that one trade that whether it be luck or not goes really well, they're hooked on it forever. Yeah. And that's the same thing with me, actually. Mine was a short trade. I primarily do a lot of like longing and like swing trading now too, but mine was actually a short trade. Mine first started because I started a bit later than all of you guys. I started close to like 2018, kind of 2019 and mine was just like kind of just this random short that went down and I was like, fuck, this is it. But as we're kind of talking about trading, we had Jack Kellogg on the podcast and he was talking about you too. And he was saying that you were kind of an inspiration and you've been an inspiration to me too as well. And yeah, we were just kind of talking and he mentioned kind of like the bankruptcy plays that he kind of learned from you and I thought that's like, that's would be kind of like a really interesting kind of like segue into trading because yeah, bankruptcy plays have certainly been hot. So yeah, maybe you could kind of talk about like some setups that you like and like maybe briefly talk about kind of like the bankruptcy type trades and stuff like that. Yeah, dude. So I realized kind of early on in the journey that that all the stuff that I was being taught long wise, all the accepted long strategies, I was just really struggling with dude. So breakouts, high day breakouts, anything pretty much that has to do with buying strength, bro. I realized kind of early on, we're not providing the best opportunities like every time I buy, you get stopped out, you see it go, I don't like those. And then as I started to understand risk and reward a lot better, it, it then it made even less sense, man, because I'm a big, big, huge advocate of knowing where I want to sell, knowing exactly where I want to sell or at least the area. And when I'm trading breakouts and stuff, I realized I don't know where, man. Where the hell am I going to sell? And if I don't know where I'm going to sell, I'm less likely to do to take action if I'm just waiting for price action. It's going to be that one red candle or, you know, some sort of random stuff that's going to take me out. So I realized that early on, and then I realized a lot of those spots when they don't work, short sellers are going to pile in all the noobs who are playing those same strategies are going to panic. So it kind of led me to just some different ideas, man, through tracking trades where I'd watch, I just watch scenarios play out and only takes a couple times for me to see something happen to where I deem it to be some sort of strategy or potential pattern, at least to the long side. So I just noticed way back in the day, man, early in my trading that I would see these stocks go from like five, 10 cents to like 50, 70 cents a buck, two bucks, three bucks. And anytime I see something like that, this is what leads me onto the hunt for some sort of set up or strategy. Anytime I get, I get a big runner, I start asking myself these questions like what made it run, where did it run from? You know, what was, what was the price range that it came from? Obviously, it's going to be market dependent. But I remember just seeing one, it was a bankruptcy play and it's like, I remember just watching a bankrupt, a bankrupt stock go from like 10 cents to a buck. And in my head, I'm, I'm wondering what the hell is going on, you know, so much in the stock market for me just doesn't make sense. And the, and those are some of my, some of the best strategies have come from these things that don't make sense to like, why would a bankrupt stock balance a thousand percent? I don't know, you know, but in my head, it's a great opportunity. It's a 10 cent stock that can go a thousand percent.  If it doesn't work, I got 10 cents downside, bro, you know, that kind of idea. And then I saw it happen again and again. And for me, the second I see it happen two or three times, I'm usually going to try to pull the trigger on the fourth and give it a go, you know, test this pattern out. Let's see if I can now play it, you know, just because I see a pattern doesn't mean I can play a pattern. So I'm just like, all right, let's give it a go. And I've had some of my best trades ever, dude, Hertz, when they went bankrupt, when they went to HTZGQ, bro, that bounce was epic, you know, and I was hitting that several times on those bounces.  So after these companies go long rolling, are you just waiting for some sort of like chart breakout signal or some sort of pattern to come at play?  Let me just load up shares, just in case, is there a more methodical way of going by it? Dude, I've tried them all sorts of ways, bro. I've tried loading them, you know, on the dip. I have found that the best way for me to do it is to just give it a day, two days to form any sort of base. So once I get a base that I deem to be a base, I'm going to be working risk off of that as opposed to any sort of breakout. And that kind of cuts across most of what I do personally. Um, dude, I am putting my money into the shittiest stocks ever created, you know, like some of the worst companies on the planet. I've got more cash in my brokerage account than most of the time when I look through filings on these companies, which is a fact. And when I think about it like that, dude, if my money is going in there for even a second, I need to maximize risk reward to the long side. What is it about these bankrupt stocks and those bounces that give you the confidence that it's going to do it? Is it seeing it a month, a bunch of times, or is there something that you're seeing in terms of cash or filings or hype that makes you go, this has the potential to squeeze? First of all, the bigger the company that I found, the better the bounce, the more hype there's going to be, the more chance they may emerge from bankruptcy. You know what I mean? Like there was kind of like the American Airlines, right? The American Airlines bankruptcy everybody bought during the bankruptcy. And then it rallies out of that hurts like you're saying is a great call out that, you know, it's a big company, almost too big to fail. So somebody got to step in to save it. Yep. No, that's it. That's that's that's always been a big part. The best trades for me have come from the best companies that have gone bankrupt, OK? Beyond that, I mean, it can be hit or miss. We'll see a lot lately. We've been seeing a lot like 50 cent companies going bankrupt and then dropping down to 20 cents and then 10 cents and five cents. Those can be hit or miss. But I the majority I, you know, just kind of recently, I'm still actually holding it right now or full disclosure. But but V-Ray went bankrupt. V-Ray, they're now V-Ray Q. I was buying it at six cents, seven cents. And I still have it. It's like one sense that it's a lame, you know, so it's not always going to bounce when they and my mistake was just not taking it off before they got delisted, man. So I'm down like five grand on that. It's not the biggest deal at the end of the day.  That's the day when they don't work. They're going to go to zero, bro. Oh, they have earnings coming. I'll probably hold till then. And then August 14th, according to thinkorswim, I have only got one penny left, bro. We're good to go. But you can only go to zero. It's not oil futures. So but here. But this is but this is an example of worst case scenario for me, you know, like and let us have more. Yeah, it's it's just one of the like I got a penny left. I can cut it whenever maybe end of the year for tax purposes or something. Can we maybe. But it's like if you go to tell, for example, tell or yell tell it's yell. It was up and it was yell why you know, you know, this thing, they announced that they're going to they hadn't announced their bankruptcy yet, but they announced they were going to be and for whatever reason, they went from 50 cents to five bucks, bro. You know what I mean? And that's not whatever reason. I mean, definitely they'll be short seller stepping in, you know, it's a BK company that's up like five hundred, six hundred, seven hundred percent in a few days and. Oh, yeah, I was shorting it, bro. I was short. Dude, why wouldn't you? I mean, and. And that's why sometimes we're going to see stuff like this on stocks that don't make sense. And because of that, I don't try to look too much into if it makes that much sense to me or not. I kind of dumb it down, man. If I see something, it just becomes a setup in this setup. I just call the BK bounce. You know what I mean? And over the years, dude, it went away in 2020, 21, 22 because of the stock market, bro.  Dude, we were running out of stocks that were sub one and sub two. And there were hardly any BKs.  And then 2022's market crushed everything. And it's just like BK, BK, BK. And we're still seeing remnants of that today, bro. BKs every day. Another great example of literally my favorite strategy I've ever had. And I still play it now. It's just it's just been super bastardized and adultery. I don't know. It's not it's not the same. Everyone knows and everyone plays it, but reverse split pumps, dude. Yeah, they're done back in the day. They used to split, fade to a buck and then pump them because they got to hold a dollar for compliance. Yeah. And that was my favorite.   The edge is gone, in other words for me with that scenario for the most part. But dude, back in the day, you know, and this is just an example.  You know what I mean? Like I'm not trading when everyone trades, probably why I have success, but I'm trying to find trying to find scenarios that are predictable for me within small cap because small caps kind of predictable, bro. You know, they're scam companies. And if they're not scam companies, they're like one drug biotechs that need cash to survive, right? So they're they're just pumping dumping themselves all day, every day.  And they teach stuff that's just kind of like accepted. And it led me in a totally different direction. It's specifically Tim Grittani, man, was the one where I was trying to get as far away from that motherfucker as possible. I'm like, I'm buying into team to into TG's levels. He was like at the time he was just like one of the best short sellers in the world, you know, and I'm thinking to myself, dude, my entries are his entries. That's not good if I'm trying to be long. I got to figure out how to how to get on the right side of that. You know what I mean? Yeah. And you nailed a lot of A.I. figures when that sector came. I remember.  So I wanted to talk about that because I think you had a good trade on SAI, was it? Oh, yeah, that was a really good trade. Yeah, that was a really good. Yeah. And maybe we could just kind of like talk about that one a little bit, because I noticed usually I'm always a little bit hesitant to buy on that first kind of day where you know, it's like just some random stock doing like for again, 500 K volume. I'm like, fuck, should I buy it? Should I not? So maybe you could kind of talk about your thought process on that one, because it wasn't kind of like a high momentum and like anything with A.I. and it was just was running. But maybe you could kind of talk about that one, too. Yeah, bro, that was a good one this year. So one of the big things for me is sector momentum. And I know that you guys over there teach the opposite of it, how to short it, too, because and drives was the first time that we all probably saw this happen together.   I think Harry was still in elementary school when that happened. Yeah, yeah, there you go. I was I was still getting bullied in elementary school. But yeah, dude, that's been a big thing for me over the years has been sector momentum. That's usually when I make my most money because all because I'll grab a basket of stocks in the sector when it happens. And so and they'll go up together. You know, if the leader gaps, they're going to all gap, you know, so I found. I found a lot of success in the sympathy plays, which is funny, because I know you guys have found a lot of success in the sympathy plays, you know, because when the leader goes, they all go. But when the leader dies, they all die.  I just have to know where to go first. And I don't have to be very first. These things normally hit my scans and stuff now. Certain sectors all know which stocks to go to, but I'm not like pulling stocks out of thin air and throwing stock. Like they'll hit my skin with some volume and stuff like that, which is how I end up finding these stocks in the first place. But from that point, I'm watching the leader, man. I'm playing off the leader, too. You know, as long as the leader strong, I'm good. In this case, it was CXAI was the leader that day.  You know, I'm talking about. Yeah, that. So day one right there, that is the day when they went from one buck to 10. Right. That's the day I bought SAI in the ones. OK. And and I didn't even play CXAI at all. I didn't play at all because it ran. I don't make a habit of buying stocks that are up 100, 200 percent personally. So when they run, my whole thing is find the sympathy play and beat everyone to it. If I can, not everyone, but find the best one. In this case, it was SAI. I didn't even find it. I would have. It would have popped on my scan, but a buddy of mine, Tanner, found it and check out SAI and just the way it was just one of those gut traits where I'm like, this is the one I already that was kind of setting up at CXAI was going nuts. And my whole thing is like, I would rather risk and be able to take like 10, 20,000 shares in the ones and eat a four or five K loss. If I have to and then chase it tomorrow for the gap up, like be with everyone trying to get into this thing for the gap up. So a little bit of luck. Yes, there's always a little bit of luck, I guess. But I just consistently put myself in that next one. And I just try to beat everyone to it. So so when the volume comes in, even if the trade doesn't work, I can still make money. And that's kind of been always my goal, like dip buying in the mornings, I try to make sure whatever my first profit target is, I get that real good risk reward to there, if that makes sense. I'm getting one to three, one to five to like VWAP. If it's super way under VWAP or high a day, wherever my first target is going to be my sell target, I'm trying to get good risk reward with that trade, as opposed to like the ultimate to keep my perspective really good. A lot of traders struggle with like being early and holding and still having faith in the setup working. Is there a time frame for you that you kind of decide, OK, I was early. It's time to cut it and reassess this. And how do you overcome that? It's something I'm always working on, bro, because I like one of my issues has always been I'm way too early. Like sometimes I I'm just way too early throughout my career. There have been times I'm too early. I'll get stopped out. I'll take small profits, whatever else it is.  So I've always kind of told myself that and lately I've been. I've been just really macro driven. So if there is a really strong macro thing going on, I'll try to be more patient. You know, if I'm seeing multi day moves and multi day squeezing and stuff like that, I'll try to be more patient in my sizing out. It's literally the only thing I'll adjust. When we get hot markets or we get like big, big runners is I will size up at times because it's time to risk up and I will size out more slowly with bigger positions at times. So I kind of keep it really simple, man. I let the markets dictate that portion of my trading, which is you know, I kind of control that extension of gains through frequency and size of sizing out, if that makes sense. That's kind of like my tool for for, you know, stoking the flame or not, man. How do you kind of justify that risk? I'm never one who gets big risk anyways. I'm like, you know, and the nature of of dip buying and the nature of kind of buying weakness is generally speaking met with like lower volume, right? So when I'm not trading breakouts and I'm not chasing strength and shit, it's not it's it's a different ballgame psychologically for me. Like the stock comes to me. I have levels I can get within one or two cents of risk, you know, oftentimes if I want to stock is only trading at three cents. That's not so bad. That's different. Honestly, I honestly, I'm the only time you'll see me bargain hunting like that, like 10, 20 cent stocks. If that's what's running. If I'm 20 cent stocks going to a buck or two bucks, you'll see me there.  Yes. Oh, dude, I'll go to the bottom of the barrel if need be, man. I'll go to the if that's where the money is. That's where the benefit and that's always been the game for me and adjusting. And because of that over the years, I'm able to trade five cent stocks. I'm able to trade 10 dollar stocks, 15 dollar stocks. I once we get to 20, 30, 40, I don't know what it is, bro, but it's just I don't I feel out of I don't feel comfortable man with the range and the speed at which they trade and how to size and all that stuff. It's just not been for me. So I'm kind of stuck in small cap for now, which I'm which I like, bro, I like being in small cap. I know how it works. I know the companies I'm messing with. So I don't get married to them.  You mentioned IPOs. Have you used like kind of like IPO bounces as a strategy? Because we've had a lot recently go from like 22 to a dollar and everyone on Twitter seems to be just constantly tweeting them and tweeting them and tweeting them. I've taken kind of like one or two, but I was wondering like, how do you feel about those like super rangey, broken down charts that are just you see them go from like a dollar to like 60 cents or like you see them go from two dollars to like a buck and you're like, fuck, like this should bounce. Like what's your kind of approach on stuff like that? Just don't touch it. I don't touch them, dude. I've tried to touch them. Like I can't I can't even get myself to touch them, dude, because I just can't, man, I don't find edge in it. I don't find that good risk reward where I can load up like 510, 20,000 shares if I want with five cents risk and trust that I can do that. They're all super micro low floats at times. I have had very little success, dude, with like IPOs, the SPACs, like the SPAC plays that are that are micro floats and just micro floats in general, bro, I struggled to long them, you know, I struggled to long them because spread gets wacky. Liquidity is not there for me to take the shares. And and those remember like the Chinese stocks, the Chinese run recently, we had kind of a recent Chinese run those two, I struggled with the Chinese stocks. Those were all very thin, too. When they trade thin and they're halting and and they're moving $10 in a day with, you know, $500,000 in dollar volume or 500,000 volume even. I struggle, bro. Straight out. Did you get Miegel because I saw Jack on Miegel? No, no, you didn't get that. No, I did. I struggle with, yeah, with micro floats, bro, in general, just because I don't know, just gambling. The price action is not clean. Yeah.  I was going to say something important that you mentioned is the the sympathy plays and so funny because you make money on the way up and we make money on the way down. So it just really goes to show that with the stocks in play, I mean, so long as you have the right strategy, I mean, you can make money both ways. So I wanted to ask you, do you have like a really memorable trade, whether it be like a big win or big loss that kind of comes into your mind when you think about trading, because I feel like we all have that one big win, big loss that kind of just really stuck to us. So I wanted to ask you, do you have something like that when loss on that just really sticks out to you? Yeah, I got two. I got two tickers that live in my heart. One is AUPH. AUPH, bro, biotech, lupus drug. This is before I realized what I was really messing with. You know, I was getting deeper into trading. My skills were improving. I was getting really good at dip buying in the morning. And back in 2017, they had phase two results come out. This is, dude, I used to do.   So so, dude, I learned so much about biotechs and and like phase, like how they work. And and it's honestly, it helps me as a trader. It does. But I happen to know that they were kind of at that. That's that. That's the chart right there to 11. That's actually it was a series of trades that day that week where I was just dip buying every morning, kept trying to go red. And I noticed it kept holding and I just kept dip buying it every morning, dude.  But like that was one of those things where I hit a scenario. It was predictable every morning to me for some reason. I saw the turn and I was trading it. And so I hit that for like five, six, seven days in a row and really grew my account early on, like when it was smaller. So there was that one. And then if you actually fast forward that to like 2021, I want to say, I traded it again, dip buying it in the forest for a swing because I knew phase three results were coming out. Right there, bro. Yep. I knew phase three results were coming out. So is that 29? Yeah, right into 2020. And I dip bought it down there in September in the fours. And then I was up 100 percent going into the results, which was my plan when I was dip buying it. I was like, hopefully it'll run into their phase three results and I'll be up just in case it's bad phase three results. And it got to down 50 percent or whatever.  And we were we were going to Miami to do some bootcamp or something like that. And I got off the plane and they had halted positive phase three news. And I was like trying to get my bags and just dishing off the shares, bro. So cool. That was an $80,000 trade. That's still my biggest trade to date was actually that swing. So it's funny. It's not even a day trade.  But that was memorable. Biggest loss, bro. Also, one of the reasons I don't short that much these days, to be honest, if not ever, is RBZ is the ticker. RBZ, bro, just a random day, random ticker.  And I think I was up 80 grand on shorts. You remember what it was? This would have been 2019 or 2020. This stock went crazy, didn't it? It was like. I was just it went nuts, bro. It went nuts. I don't know if we do that, Joe. I think, uh, yeah, right here. It was like back in the back. If you think it was one of those, bro, that like literally I showed up. I was slamming everything all month, just like highs and just crushing the shorts. And and funny thing about me, man, when I'm along, I'm very chill. I'm very calculated with risk reward. I'm very all about like mitigating risk. And when I start short selling it, I switch, bro, into this mean motherfucker.  I get aggressive. Dude, this is one of the reasons that I don't short because I do know myself and I know when I flip over the script, I'll be, dude, I will be aggressively short selling my favorite long setups, dude. It's fucked.  So I do plan on getting back into the short selling realm. Just with not until I have a extremely concrete plan, I'm going to put 30 K in an account and go at it, you know, like and try my best to not blow that account up and maybe I'll join you guys for a little bit and see what you all are doing over there. But but I do plan on on getting into some short selling. That trade, dude, was like, I showed up super late to the markets. I was like, I don't know, an hour late. It had already spiked and dropped like five bucks. And it was just popping back to VWAP or something, something of that nature, bro. And I took like 200 shares, man, and just willy nilly, like, I'll make a grand if it drops back down to lows, which it should. And yeah, RBC instead of like pop and halted on me.  And then I added, I just doubled it. And then another high day, I doubled it.  Next thing I know, I had like 2,000 shares. I was down 10 bucks a share.  Like this isn't supposed to happen. And it had never happened to me, man. So it was just one of those things, dude. It seemed like a walk in the park, you know, like I got a Chihuahua on a leash or something. I'm going to go walk her and then I turn around and turn back around and it's a dragon, bro, you know, double, double, double.  Dude, I would have been down 100 something. And I was thinking about doubling, you know, where I cut, bro. So that was that. I didn't stop short selling, but but that was definitely I haven't had a loss like that since then.  And it was a huge lesson for me, bro. I won't let that happen again. I'm sure if I start shorting, it's inevitable there are going to be times just like when I'm long where trades just get out of hand. That's trading and it's just kind of how I react. So I'm going to make sure I have the right systems in place to to handle that when I do. But but those are the two, dude, you know, a couple of tickers that will live in my heart. But there are tons of other tickers, bro.   Exactly. Exactly. There are some that I'm super fond of and some I really am going to stay away from 10. And it's it's very important, bro, because I've not met one successful trader that hasn't had like a really big wake up call. And oftentimes to get to that next level, you need to be able to lose to learn what never to do again. Right. So I think that's something really important that people need to understand is like, you know, you should not look forward to those days. But I forget someone who said it. They said that you already had the loss and you already paid for it. And if you do not learn from that, then it was just wasted. So if you have that type of loss, there's two types of people.  Like it was the stocks fall, like I didn't do anything. And the other person says, wait a second, like I can learn from this. And if you already paid the tuition with the loss and you're not learning from it, then it's just a waste. So if anyone took a loss, I know that there's a lot of crazy stocks moving right now. So I think that if anyone is struggling while they're trading and watching this to understand that you're going to lose and you have a choice, you paid that tuition, are you going to learn from it? Or are you going to ignore it? And I think that's very important for you. You learn from it and it changed your life. It changed your life. Yeah, 100 percent, man. That's funny. You mentioned that because I remember watching like Tim Grittani, bro, I watched all his stuff and, you know, and held him in such high regard. And remember him talking about these big losses, bro, and that all traders are going to go through it. I remember listening to LX 21, Greg talking about some of these losses and everyone I respected, bro, had gone through this. So and at that point, you don't have to. And the truth is, you don't have to. Like, yeah, that's the only time that's ever happened to me. But at the same time, a sense of relief, bro, because I knew it was coming at some point, you know what I mean? And so I'm like, thank I'm like, I was kind of like to me, you know, it was a kind of a rite of passage, bro. It's kind of how it felt to me. And like I said, it didn't scare me away from short selling. I just know that when I go back, I'm going to be able to. I'll have to realize it. Yeah, I'll have a I'll be coming back. That thought always crosses, though, when you're watching that content. Like I remember watching Grittani stuff and your and you mentioned LX 21 as well. That won't happen to me because I've seen this. I see what they're saying. I'm going to learn from that and I'm not going to do it. But then, lo and behold, we all do it. Every single one of us fall victim to that same trap that they all do, that we all do it.  It's either they have their biggest trade coming up, you know, which and you're going to risk up, man, that's that's what happens when it's a plus plus good markets, everything lines up. That's also going to be probably your most dangerous trade as well. You know, when you have that kind of conviction. So that's what I always hear. It's either too much conviction and the trade doesn't work. And now they're in a weird spot mentally or it's like me where it's just like willy-nilly walk in the park, not expecting anything, but not prepared either, you know what I mean? And not having a plan. I had zero trading plan, bro, except for like throw some shares at it. And when it goes back to low a day cover because it's going to go there kind of thing, I didn't have a plan for what happened if it didn't.   But then you're down 10, 20 bucks a share on one of these crazy rippers, you know? So it happens. Yep, it happens, bro. I have a question for a lot. I know Joe mentioned that you like fishing, but I want to ask, what's your morning process like? What's your morning routine like? Do you trade all day? You trade a couple of days a week. You trade in the morning, they go fishing in the afternoon. Could you walk us through like what a normal day in your life is like? Yeah, these days, man, well, I got four kids. So it's usually wake up breakfast for them.  I like get in before my kids are up, throw my stuff up just to get bearings, wake my kids up, breakfast. My wife will get them to school or they'll get on the bus and get to school. And that's just trading, dude. I try to trade the first hour and a half of the day. That's where I'm at. That's where I like to trade. That being said, my hours change drastically, man. Like to the long side, I'm always adapting. So, and that goes for time of day too. So there are times, man, where that first 30 minutes for me is going to be where the best moves are going to be to the long side and where I can get the best risk reward, but like, you know, a couple of weeks ago, the best moves.  So, so it changes. It varied. I try to I try to work when I need to work, you know what I mean? I try to I try to be behind my desk trading when it pays for me to be here. And if not, I try to either teach. I've been doing a lot of just one-on-one teaching and just like mentoring people and working with people lately. But outside of that, you know, I'll get a workout in. I think that's super important. Yeah, so on Instagram, bro, you're looking stacked these days. Thank you, bro. Yeah, just been just once a day, bro.  And and for me, I just try to work that in there. But really went for the trading, bro. I'm just I don't want to be here if it's paying me, bro. You know what I mean? And for me, the best window of volatility is always that first and last hour. So I'll hit the first hour. I hit power hour, bro.   I'll find. You know what I mean? So I'm a huge advocate. I'm a huge advocate of shutting it down. The only time I'm not doing that is when we are specifically seeing the best moves of the day happen midday. And the funny thing is I don't do well when that's the case. Anyways, so it's kind of one of those. I'd rather just for the most part wait till the plays come back to me in the mornings and and do other shit, man. I'm a huge advocate of when the market slow down, when your plays slow down, I size down, my trade frequency comes down. And I try to improve my life in other areas. You know what I mean? Yeah, that's great. And one other question that I had for you, because like we're all talking about for Tommy, you know, shorting and stuff like that. But like a lot of the guys who have been primarily shorting the past couple years and now turn to kind of like longing and stuff like that. So like, how do you feel about that? Because like you were the longing pioneer, really.    So how does that make you feel kind of like seeing some other traders that you kind of look up to in the beginning now starting to go along, you know, dude. Gretani's biggest trades, I think first and second biggest trades are longs now at this point in his career. But it's not that surprising. What's that?  Honestly, I really, for me, there's no weight in it.  Ever, you know what I mean? Like, if you want to show it short, if you want to long, long, I really don't care. Um, that being said, it was cool. It was cool. There are two things with Gretani that. And when he mentions me in Trading Tickers 2, bro, I was like, because he mentions me someone and someone called me to tell me that. Like, whoa, dude, because Trading Tickers 1 was my Bible, bro. It was, it was my everything, dude. That's where I learned about price action and risk reward and watching him live trade, bro. That was the Bible for me, bro.  But, but no, dude, you know, it makes sense to me, you know, that there are times to the long side where the upside is so extreme. And to the short side, it's only a hundred percent, 99.99, you know, that you can take and, and granted, it's, it's a different game, but, but that did always attract me to the fact that I can wake up to 400 percent gap ups once in a while. You know what I mean? Uh, 300 percent gap ups, that kind of upside I don't think can be ignored. Um, but it can be two, you know what I mean?   That's, that to me is the game, man. And, and, um, that's what I'm always trying to grow into. I'm still trying to get better, man, at pushing when I need to push. I've not been able to size up to the levels that I'd like to to the long side, and a huge part of that just has to do with knowing the game, bro, like knowing who I'm trading with and against and knowing how these stocks are going to be dumping and knowing that I don't want to be in them that long, you know what I'm saying? Um, so for me, the small cap, long game is smash and grab, but, but I figured out ways to, to get really good risk reward and to be able to kind of extend how long I can be in them. Um, that's, that's the big thing for me. So it makes sense, makes sense. Something that always interests me is what do traders do with their money outside trading? So how do you diversify your income outside the market? Is it real estate? Is it bonds? Is it just bearing it under the shed? What do you do? Um, no, some real estate in the past. Um, we're building right now. We're building a home and we're doing some other stuff. Um, as a family man, a lot of it's just my kids, dude, you know, I have a couple accounts for them. I'm starting to put stuff away for, uh, for my kids. Um, some longer term investment ideas and stuff like that as well. I'm looking into a lot of things, bro. You know, I'm looking into all sorts of ways in the future to, to go ahead and, and I don't use all my capital to trade with, you know what I mean? So, so that's something that I'm always kind of working on, you know, I, but I'm not the kind of guy that has, uh, too many investments or too many things going on. I don't, I don't really buy much. Um, and for me, the game, the whole game is like I could, I could go any minute, you know, so I got a any day with four kids, bro, you know, I got to make sure that, um, I'm saving, can't be spending too much investing in, and I'm still right now figuring out the best, the best means of using that kind of additional cash, you know. So let's bring it back all the way to the roots, man. You know, you talked about where you came from, what you did, and the people that were there that supported you along the way to do it. And I think a lot of traders could resonate with that, with that.  How have they impacted your trading and how did you get to that level with them there?  She's the one who was pushing me in soccer to succeed myself as well. But she was the one who was like, you know, facilitating it, getting extra trainers in the morning so I could do the extra work that I wanted to do and stuff like that. So she's amazing and has supported me throughout the journey.  Like I was, dude, I was playing blackjack and then slots, man. I was like a degenerate gambler, man. It's my I have a very addictive personality, if you can't tell.   I enjoyed that, you know. But sorry, one second. Freaking wife, bro. I was at the devil. OK. Anyways, but so she was a little skeptical, OK, but I explained to her what what I knew to be true, OK, which is that gambling is just it is way different than trading. There are there's such a fine line between the two, though, you know, I can I still today can gamble and trade same day, you know what I mean? And I tell my students this, like, are you gambling or all your trading? But but one of the main differences for me was the fact that I can find higher probability setups. And then even within those setups, when trades don't work, I am in control of how much I lose. That is the main difference to me between the gambling in the casino and gambling in the markets is that I'm not putting down 20 to lose or win 20 or win 30, I'm putting down 20 to potentially win 100 and I can cut if I'm down five, I can cut if I'm down three dollars, I can risk one dollar, you know what I mean? That control to me is was the main differentiating factor. I'm like, holy shit, I can cut it whenever I can lose two dollars when I will lose and I can win $10 when I win. That that made sense to me so much that I didn't scare myself away from trading, man. I understood the power of that and even to the I didn't understand anything at that time about trading, but from a mathematical standpoint and and the fact that I get to control that the problem is, is that no one controls it. You know what I mean? Like when you start trading, you just don't know how or where or when or what. So that became I didn't realize that was going to be the game of figuring out how do I how do I cut that while still having upside over and over and over again, which is still the game I play today, every day all day, you know? So what? What were the reactions my wife was as once I started making money, dude, she was cool. That's why that is what has been those reactions of, you know, those were the two people that saw you at your lowest and now that you're at your highest. What is their reactions been? Still supportive, man. I don't I don't talk to my wife too much about trading. I'm about to start teaching her actually. Sure, that I'm terribly figure who knows, man, if she can fall out, I'll quit, bro. I'll take the kids to school. I'll go golfing. I'll go fishing, bro. We're good to go. Turn her into a beast. Now she I'm super supportive, bro. You know, there's I can ask for better. I just couldn't and I am going to teach her in case something happens to me. Maybe she has the skill too, dude, you know what I mean? And it'd be a good thing for her to know anyway. So you'll probably be seeing some of her and that's cool. You know, I don't know why not. So why not get her on the pod and then we can get the other half of the story. Exactly. Yeah, you don't want that. Bro, I'm trying to give you as real as possible. We don't need her. Well, Roland, man, it's been incredibly inspiring, dude. I don't I, you know, some of these things I knew some of these things I didn't know just from hearing your stories from the past. And truthfully, thank you for being here and thank you for being so candid with us. And if there's anything we can do for you, brother, you always, you know, were to find us, you know, how to let us know, man. So thank you. Goes to show, bro, that even at your darkest days, you still have potential. Yes, there's anyone out there with those dark days. I mean, you could use Roland as a role model to be like, you know what, if he can do it, so can I. Yep. Truthfully. I can't agree, dude. Thank you guys for having me on. I've wanted to speak with all of you actually for quite a while.  So and myself, dude, when I say, you know, I don't know if it's an ego thing that we all kind of end up having a little bit once we get into this game, but I had a little ego to do this, dude.  I've been talking to traders of all instruments lately. And it's just so cool, man.  I try to tell people where you are and that if you're making money, I need to be selling where he is. You know what I mean? And and he's going to be covering hopefully where I'm buying like that is the game guys, you know, and and everyone has this has that that wrong. They're on the other side always. That's why they're not becoming profitable because they can't get within the flow, bro.  Once you really understand that, it just becomes easier, man.  You know, so so that's what I'll leave people with. You kind of have to find your own way, but no matter what you have to get in the flow, dude, of the markets, you can't battle them, you know, know where the shorts are.  And and that to me can provide so much edge just over your everyday fucker who's not thinking about this kind of stuff, you know, correct. Perfect. All right. Well, thank you, bro. Thank you for having me on, man. Perfect. Let's do it again. Cool.