Well, I have the top of the hour. So let's begin. I'd like to welcome everybody. Welcome to the Future Trends Forum I'm delighted to see you all here today We have a great guest on an important topic and we have so much to talk about Donna White is an extraordinary person. She's the director of a great outfit in the Washington, DC area a collaboration between the nonprofit and a few different universities Breakthrough Tech DC aims to help women and underrepresented minorities Get more access to technology training and practice These are all populations that tend to be underrepresented in technology specifically digital technology And all this group does is focus on reversing the underrepresentation It's a great project and we'd love to hear more about it Especially what tells us about higher education so that any further ado, let me just welcome director donna white Hello Good afternoon, Brian. Whoa, you got a little scratchy on your on your audio there. Can you speak again? Good afternoon Yeah, um, there's a little kind of buzz um on on the word. I don't know if you can hear it Can can you quickly turn your mic off and on again? Sure Sorry about that. It's um, okay. It's off And speak again Hello, uh, it's still kind of funny thing. Okay Try it again Does that work better? Whoa, it really does. Okay. Oh man, that's a completely wiped this all that was Whatever was causing that buzz that was in your ears and you got rid of it. Thank you. Thank you Well, welcome, um director white. I'm so glad to see you. Um, and your work is so important Let me just ask To introduce you to people. Uh, we have a custom here. We ask people to introduce themselves by talking about what they're doing for the next year So i'm curious. What are you going to be working on? Uh at breakthrough or elsewhere? What are the big topics and the big projects that are really uppermost in your mind? Wonderful. Um, so thank you again for having me and thank you to all the Those who are listening in and watching. Um, and please call me donna Um breakthrough tech, uh is an organization that started in new york And um, we expanded into dc in 2021 and so one of the things that i'm always looking to increase, um, especially as we're looking at, um, statistics So for example, the bureau of labor statistics projects that employment and computer and information technology occupations is projected to grow by 13 percent between 2020 and 2030 so one of the things that i am credited for doing or um, it is important for me to do is to work with the two partner universities entity university of maryland college park as well as george mason university to continue to focus on interventions, um for a critically important population and that's diverse group of college women As well i'm working to with pretty esteemed colleagues across those two universities To really break down barriers that keep diverse women from studying and working in tech And as well, um, it's important to be able to work across sectors So i'm just one person but um because of the fabulous teams that i work with in computer science and information sciences at the two universities We work along with industry To ensure that we have opportunities and that we're supporting Students who are embarking on computer science and information sciences majors So really i am working to ensure that we are creating these supports and make it making sure that the sectors Are preparing those students for a future post graduation Wow, that's a tremendous amount of of work. Um, I I have to ask what are some of the supports that Is that financial is that mental health is that networking opportunities? How does that work? So one of the things that um with breakthrough tech, um, we focus on three key areas We call them called them our three C so curriculum That means that we are looking at ways to really be able to expand access Um in introductory community computer science classes So that we are increasing the number of majors in that field We're also looking at career preparation and experiential learning So we want to ensure that we're providing Opportunities for students, especially early in their career their college career To be able to gain the credentials that are Necessary for them to have additional opportunities like summer internships and then we hope Then full-time higher and then the third C would be around community building So we're really looking at how do we grow community? We understand that whatever field you're in whatever work you're doing that, um, A sense of community is important and especially with perseverance And so we want to make sure that we have that community whether it's within that institution or across all breakthrough tech sites We want to make sure that they understand who is there to support them Both on the student side as well as with the industry professionals I say so hit a curriculum credentials and also community That's a that's a whole range of support Friends just just to let you know I've got a couple of quick questions to ask But the forum is here for you. This is your place to ask questions Um, and we are really grateful to hear any questions you have or comments or suggestions or Further questions. Um, this is your place. So please just go to the bottom of your screen and click the raised hand If you want to be up here, uh, I promise people without a lot of hair are as welcome as Donna and I And or just type in the q&a box and we'd love to hear your thoughts In fact, even before I can finish saying that Donna Donnie Sablebach, um in the in the chat said this is such an important topic Those of us here need to share out this session to others Glad to hear it. Donnie. Please just, you know, take the link and fling it on linkedin and facebook Twitter and elsewhere We you know the more people the more conversation the better um One question I have is Are you working primarily with college students who are undergrads? Or are you also working in primary and secondary schools? Are you working with just people who aren't enrolled but are interested in technology?  Um, our primary constituency is uh, our undergrads So we recognize the importance of all programming For me, I'm not a traditional. I'm not an academic. So I come from a program background nonprofits specifically and Because of that I understand What is needed for those programs and those supports to be able to support students through the k-12 process With breakthrough tech. We are primary. We are focused on undergraduates Because we recognize that that is the really the first point for them to be able to gain One because they are now declaring a major and that's where their academic focus will be for that time But as well being able to provide them with those real life experiences like an internship And that can't it usually doesn't happen until they get to college We do recognize that there are opportunities earlier For some students, but we also recognize that once they get to college Those are where a lot of those opportunities are created One thing that I did want to point out about breakthrough tech is that we specifically focus on large public universities And we specifically focus in on that target audience Because we recognize that in some instances it is a barrier for Recruitment from some companies They may tend to go to the same universities typically private universities with a very high reputation of being able to To have graduates that then are fed into the career tech pipeline And so some of those opportunities may not always be extended to public universities And so we want to make sure that we are focusing in an area where we are creating this additional opportunity for students Who may not have it? That's a great point. I can see your nonprofit background at work in that kind of strategy. That's excellent And welcome to people who just crashed in the door. I'm glad to see you folks like philip and lee Hello, christina charles and julia speaking of charles. He has a question a good clarifying question Um, whoops hang on one second. Let me bring this up If I press the right button and I can remember how to type who are the underrepresented gender identity age family background or what? All of them are represent under represented. Uh, so we say women non-binary first generation students Students who may identify from a non-traditional ethnic and racial Category that are in tech careers. So I do want to make sure that we are delineating It's those who those students who may not traditionally Have a job in a tech. So those who are represented in tech careers But it's anyone um because we are working in um institutions We know that anyone may have barriers to their work. So while our focus is on women We don't discourage anyone. Um that may identify from Gender that may not be women or non-binary. Um, and if they are first generation We want to make sure that all students have access to our programming Very good. Um, thank you for the question charles. Um, and thank you for that clear answer Donna and if you're if you're new to the forum, that's an example of a q&a box So, uh, just type in a question like charles's and you can see all flashing the screen for everybody And now that i'm demonstrating shindig for those who are new to it. Let me bring up another person in this case It's a wonderful Uh former student of mine at russian university jordan davis. Let me bring him up on stage Hello, sir. Good to see you Hey, bryan. Good to see you as well. Hello. Donna. Can you all hear me? Okay? Yes. How are you? Okay, great. Um, first and foremost donna. Thank you so much for your work as as others have said in the chat so far The work that you're doing is so important and um As the first black man in the history of my program, which is the learning design and technology program That bryan teaches in i've been thinking about issues of inclusivity and justice a lot within education technology and What i'm finding is that i actually did a research project for my learning analytics course last semester and i found that a lot of Learning analytics programs and education technology programs in general like you said are concentrated at these predominantly white private institutions, so like what would it take in order to Encourage more of these programs start-up So having more learning analytics programs more education technology programs at historically black colleges You know like howard like hampton like more house, etc So that like you're saying more students who are going to these more racially diverse institutions have actual access to these programs Uh, great question. Thank you and congratulations and being the first I hope that you will not be the last and we'll recruit others um I think one of the things that we always find especially in these type programs is that money and funding is essential and it's really the the foundation of any type of program that we're trying to replicate Um with breakthrough tech we have been fortunate to have Some seed funding from a couple of funders who support our work And so that is how we have been able to we started in new york At cuny we expanded to chicago at uic Then came dc at university of maryland and george mason and then we recently announced Expanding and this is for our computing program at fiu So one of the things that we're hoping Is that eventually we are Creating a buzz We are also showing We'll have the data to show that we are creating change Within this area and then we will have funders who will be able to support Creating more programs like we're doing we're hoping that Breakthrough tech will be a model that we could utilize and replicate in other institutions And even in the cities where we're working we're already thinking amongst ourselves internally to decide How do we engage more of the colleges and universities who are in these cities where we're currently working so that we can be able to partner with i'm in dc so with howard and With buoy state and morgan and any of the other universities that may not have access to this So i think it really is funding and money But as well one of the things that is a key component of the work that we do Is cross collaboration so we do it We're a nonprofit organization breakthrough tech is a nonprofit organization But we partner with higher ed so it's important that we get buy-in from the university Sector but we also need industry engagement So they can industry can engage and provide funding But we also need them to create opportunities and provide support for some of the programs that we're doing Where for example our sprint internships program, which is a micro internship program Being able to get more companies to host Our students to go through that program which provides them with that resume credential then That they can then take and hopefully get into other summer internship programs So it's it takes funding Definitely, but it really takes um, I hate to use the cliche of it takes a village But it really does take a lot of different pieces To really combine and to work together to ensure that we're providing these opportunities Yeah, thank you so much donna many follow up questions and just other thoughts, but i'm gonna hit you on link then I got you Thank you so much. Thanks ryan appreciate it. Thank you, jordan. Thank you Again, so if you're new to the forum, that's an example of a video question Pretty obviously here. Let me change the display a bit make things a little A little more spread out a little more comfortable. Um, thank you for that question and donna just you're describing what sounds like a What will become a nationwide movement? If you if you keep doing this are you going to keep focusing on public universities Or are you going to expand to private ones as well? So I think for our computing side, so I want to make sure I'm getting something right between our program So we have our computing which i'm a part of and we focus on Um, undergrads who are pursuing a computer science or an information sciences. Um, which is a zip code 11 Um designation for all of our academics that may be on the call We also expanded um in on the ai side and that ai program is focused on Access uh differently Um, and with that model, um, we are really it was developed with industry leaders Um, and it's a really a free program that teaches students the skills to build ai solutions and real real world conditions So it's a combination of coaching and mentoring and internship and then we hope placement uh to really launch their careers with that program Again, we started in new york in the greater new york area, but we recently announced that we're expanding to boston Uh at it and then la uh uc la so That is a another um component that we're introducing um to the the list of activities that we have to be able to support students Very good. Thank you. Thank you I'm glad to see that in boston too Friends, this is uh your space for your questions to follow up So, please don't let me monopolize the mic. Uh, the this is your environment And uh, we already have a question from dean uh ron freedman at the purview of fort wane We put that on the screen. What role does faculty play at the partner institutions? That's a great question. Um faculty are essential to our work Um at each of our sites, um, we have a site lead As well and the site lead is usually the program person who will manage The work that's being done, but we also have faculty lead And the faculty lead is really essential for helping to bridge the work that we're doing. Um That person does a lot with helping faculty to understand the work that's happening Helping faculty to think about how they are delivering um in teaching their classes How they're recruiting students for research What type of curriculum innovations may be involved in the work? Um, so one of the things that we Want to make sure is that yes in some instances we have students who come in to college They're accepted into the computer science program. They know exactly what they want to do But we do have some students who may Enter undecided or they may decide that they want to change majors So we want to make sure that we are creating an environment that if it's someone who Is is undeclared or um is in In the program, we want to make sure that the curriculum matches the students and so Faculty is very important there. We also ensure that as part of the grant that um, Money is built into the program to be able to support faculty and being able to um Engage in some of these innovations. So whether it's changing the curriculum, um, especially first and second year curriculum um Or it could be something where they have a summer research institute We want to make sure that faculty is um at the forefront of the work that we're doing because it's important Not just if they were doing this program, but that students are going to the program They're declaring the major and they have the support from the time that they declare a major to the time that they graduate And faculty is this is is essential to them That's that's a great great answer. Uh ron. Uh, I if you'd like to uh, uh follow up Please, uh, you know your race. Click the raised hand and join us on stage or type in another question note Um, that's a very very detailed, uh outline. Thank you for the question and again dawn. That's a great answer um, and hello to venessa who has just come in and uh In in the chat, uh, donna, I don't know if you've if you've seen this like I'll share it afterwards john hollandbeck shared a paper from 1990 By the great sherry turkle and uh, seamar patbert But epistemological pluralism in computer science and john pointed out this is a great article about women's voices And the problem remains So if you haven't had I'll I'll copy the So you can see it Thank you And we have still more questions coming up and jordan has a great follow And jordan, I think I'm just gonna have to have you on stage for a while Jordan said what breakthrough is pitched to potential donors? The donors see this as philanthropic or do they see it as being a crucial and beneficial intervention for diversity in the field? We're hoping. Um, I'm gonna answer the last question first. Uh, we're hoping that they see it. Um Both ways. So we want, um industry to be engaged at all Parts of this evolution So we want them to support the work that we're doing and be able to provide the opportunities To be able to do the work. Um, and so at minimum Providing the infrastructure for us to be able to continue to to run our organization But the second piece is that we want industry to understand that as early in the process the academic process that they can Engage with students They can also use this to convert these students into their full-time hires And so we want them to be able to see how beneficial an internship is to the students first of all Um, and for the diversity of students who may not come from the traditional universities where large companies tend to first recruit So they can see the potential of these students that we have great students at all of our universities and they Deserve to be showcased and this is a way for us to do it But for the companies we want them to see that this is their future. Um, these are their future hires And so by supporting our program Philanthropically, they are supporting the future Because they are providing this program. They're supporting These amazing universities and institutions that are supporting the work that we're doing But we're hoping that they will see The return on investment that they are able to then have these students once they graduate to then become their their future workforce And one of the things that I want to mention about our sprint internships Um, as I mentioned, it is a micro internship. So it's very it's a very interesting Uh setup It is three weeks that the students are working in these companies and the companies develop A challenge project and we don't want these students to just go in and say, oh, I'm pushing some paper around for three weeks Or you know, if it's something um, it's grunt work It's something that someone else doesn't want to do that we have these students to do it We want the companies to really think through a project that one um, may be Essential to the work that they're doing or it may be a project that they have not been able to Have their workforce to be able to prioritize and they may be able to have A set of students who can at least start some work. They can do the research Maybe provide some insight and then take that and be able to utilize it in the larger organization Again, we're hoping that they will provide that the companies will see it as a much larger return on investment Not just giving money To the the effort but as well being able to contribute to a diverse workforce And that's what we hope that they will see as really the biggest return on um, the support that they offer Well, again, that's uh, that's a very powerful nonprofit strategy and jordan Thank you for that great great limiting question and donna would have would have really rich answer um, I of course Inherently support you in uh, having this as a future investment a future forward investment. Thank you Uh, we had a quick note, uh in the chat um from uh, donnie senelbach Again, who says, um, I worked at a small liberal arts college recent position searches have been disappointing in terms of diversity of applicants Have been thinking lately about how it's upon us to provide mentoring to our own students to make it more diverse for the future as a staff member And there wasn't there wasn't a question there, but I wanted to share that comment Um, and donna did you want to do you want to speak to that or are Just let it stand I will say I I agree wholeheartedly. Um, I think that it's important to think about How we're approaching it and I hope that it's a conversation that's being had not just in higher ed, but um within curriculum Um, so how are you getting and retaining students? And how does that then translate into the workforce? And so I'm hoping it's a Comment and a desire that is not just resonating with a few people But it's really resonating with this everyone whether it's industry academia or any other Entity that may be hiring for the future Oh, thank you, donnie, uh for sharing that Donnie's an awesome person And uh, donna, thank you for the it's gonna be hard to say donnie and donna It's it's really good to uh to hear that response Speaking of curriculum. We have another question from uh, john hollandbeck Who wanted you to develop one point? interested more in curriculum matching the student Computing and structural design are historically white male fields that do not account for other voices Can it become pluralistic? So how can you match the curriculum with the student? I guess this is another way of putting it So I can my answer would be purely anecdotal because I am not coming from Um an academic background. However, I feel like it can um, I know that there are um professors all across the country who um are really focusing in on D. E. I as a part of curriculum innovations And so I think that it's important if there is The desire and the mindset to be able to make um curriculum More inclusive than I think that it can be done Um, I think that it is very important because we do see that Some students once they get into a program Um, just depend in the the background can vary They may not have had the exposure through the curriculum or certain areas in their K-12 And so as a result of that when they get to college then it may be a culture shock and in culture shock in terms of academia And what they are seeing there So I think it's important to if we are if we're all saying that it's important to have students engaged And to ensure that we are providing as much support in terms of the curriculum throughout a college career Then I think it's important for it to become pluralistic And I think that it's important for those who have the the will and Um, most importantly the opportunity To provide these innovations. I think I know that they're um It All academia is political So it really depends on Um, the faculty whether there's a faculty senate and how things are agreed upon and How things are pushed through But I think that if we all make an effort um to say that this is important that it can change Well, that's Thank you. That really goes really deeply into this question. John. Thank you for the clarifying question Um, we have more questions coming up and uh, I want to welcome my friends from upstate new york Ellen you who is the chief information officer at union college And she asks our institution is also focusing on women in computer science by focusing on hiring women faculty Does your program help universities to hire diverse faculty in computer science departments? Great question. Um And great work ellen. I support you wholeheartedly and and what you're doing. Um, our program does not directly Support the hiring of faculty. However, um, we are hoping that one of the things that each of the universities with whom we work develop a strategic plan on how they're going to achieve their goals and increasing the number of women that are graduating With these degrees and so as a result of that we recognize that there are some things that will That have been shown to support More women either entering the major Staying meaning retaining them and then graduating Women faculty is an area that statistics show Will help women um who embark on that major to persevere? And so we want to make sure that we are offering support again We do as part of our um the funding It can be used for faculty grants. So faculty grants is not going to fund Um a faculty position. However, it may support efforts by the faculty or by the dean to be able to do some things to um Maybe make it more attractive to um come to this university To support the work or they may be able to use some other funding To be able to support again summer research So there are some small things that we do but we don't directly Work with recruiting diverse faculty Well, that's a that's a great direct answer and also a really good Deepening of our understanding of how of how your enterprise works Thank you Ellen and and please say hi to my union friends there We also have a follow-up question from Jordan and Jordan I may just put you up on stage if I'm just going to do that now because because you are so good And I want to give you a chance to to shine So we can bring you up here Jordan has a question of curriculum development and about learning designers and you can phrase that better than I can Jordan Why don't you cut loose? Well, well, thank you Brian. Um, I appreciate the time and then yeah, the my question was mainly centered around how Well, I wanted you to speak more about the curriculum development aspect of what the breakthrough does like Do you will have learning designers on your staff or like do you? you know ask Individual like learning designers and like other places to come in and kind of hold and then also Are the learning designers mostly designing like the the internships and the sprinterships and the high impact practices or do they also have a hand in Developing like the the more formal like academic programs at these institutions Thank you for the question So I think one of the things the question was asked earlier about what is the role of faculty? Um in our work and that's where our faculty person comes in to play our faculty lead At each of the universities they really work internally with Their colleagues to really decide what type of innovations they want to have in the curriculum and so it is developed in house Which is I think the better way to do it At least in the instances that I'm aware of as relates to breakthrough tech That is the best way so far that it has worked because The faculty that's there understands the students and understands the history of the work that has been done there Understand general ed requirements And then also understand how all of the different pieces of the curriculum play into creating The major and ensuring that students are getting the well-rounded Education that they need to graduate So I think it is essential to be able to work within the compliance of the university And be able to utilize the immense talent that is already there For example, we I spoke about the strategic plan that each university does One of the things that they they do is they look at their curriculum and find ways especially in the introductory courses And one how to retain students so if their students are already declared majors in that area What are some ways that we can ensure that students are retained? They're looking at Year over year data to determine. Okay, this particular course may Be a challenge for students and being able to to Stay in that program And so what innovations can we now incorporate to ensure that we are providing an opportunity for more students to Persevere through the major the other is how can we then make a course attractive? To a student who may be a non cs or is major So what introductory course can we now? If it is possible make a gen ed course so that they understand this is a computer science course They can learn more about computer science and may peak an interest of a non declared major To say oh, maybe i'm now interested in computer science and information sciences So it's important to really utilize the talent of your existing faculty to be able to create Those innovations and figure out where there are opportunities to be able to grow it So we to answer your question We look internally at the university to make those changes But who knows what may happen down the line with external developers Got it yet. I definitely answered my question. Yeah. Thank you for that. Okay Jordan can I keep you on stage for a bit more? Sure. Yeah, that's fine Yeah Well, I just know you're passionate about this and you know a lot and and I want to make sure that We get to pick your brain as much as we can too Donna, thank you It's I'm just struck by how complex your project is how many moving parts and how many connections you have to make That's that's a lot going on Friends we're we're coming close to the end So this is the time to share your thoughts and questions. So again hit the raised hand button If you want to join us on stage We can have up to six people here at a time. I think so there's plenty of room Or a question or answer We did have a nice comment from Vanessa Vale who says as someone who was a female math major at a deep south university circa 1961 I can't identify about support and attitudes too And uh, Charles Finley and John Hollenbeck follow up by noting that faculty are not often learning designers And the importance of personalized learning environments Um, I had one question for you Donna. Well, everybody else is thinking really hard. Um I'm trying to imagine what would happen if breakthrough Takes over the world right if if you if you if you spread and spread and spread because there's so much interest in You're doing such good work. Um, what would a college or university look like and say 10 years of all of this?  Would we see the support staff have changed as well and also the faculty? I hope so, um You know, I I hope that that is the goal Um, I'm hoping that we will be able to see um, the trends in Higher ed translate into the workforce as well I think it's important to understand how we We meaning breakthrough tech see the synergy between industry and academia and the importance of one of both, um to the success of students And so we don't not only want to see students to graduate and then get into the tech field But we're hoping that they'll stay. Um, so we do recognize if we're looking 10 years down the line We do recognize that, um, there are some Barriers now that exist where even if we we think students are prepared and they graduate and they go into a tech company Um for some diverse candidates, they may not stay for an extended period of time So I think it's important to look at all of the again with supports that are happening I'll there an undergrad but as well into the workforce. And so I think it's important that If there is an effort to really diversify your department That includes not just the students but as well the faculty And really making it an effort. Um, I want to university of Maryland, for example has the a reef initiative in the Reap Center Which really focuses on diversity and inclusion In computer science and information sciences. And so I think that they have There's one clear example of a university who has made it a priority Throughout the work that they're doing and they are supporting that with the various initiatives that they're doing And how they they engage their student body and their faculty in the work that they're doing I think other universities are doing it as well. It may not be on the same level As I foresee But I think that um, we're hoping to see that diversity and I'm a an optimist at heart So I'm hoping that this will translate into The work that we're able to do and we definitely will see the numbers of women Graduating climbing graduating with computer science. Let me always make sure that I'm clear Computer science and information science is different. Well, thank you. That's a great vision. I I love your optimism Um, and I again, I that was a question for me. So let me get out of the way and get a couple questions from other folks here Um, this is one from Purdue University Global. Uh, christina That's corn who says is ddi fully realized without a diverse administration That is even if we were able to hire a diverse itc sis faculty How meaningful are those initiatives with the homogeneity? No, I'll flash that back in the screen again because it's I think that uh remains to be seen. I think that is one one part of the equation Um to be able to have the diverse administration Um, we still see that there are challenges in being able to have that diversity in an administration So if that's one piece that has already been worked out, then I think that um, at least there is a will um to have to diversify Much deeper and hopefully working towards success. I think again, it's about faculty and the numbers If you really look at across the board, um the number of diverse faculty in this area in cs and um Cs specifically, but information sciences. You see a lot more diversity, but in computer science um, it is a challenge to have to see the level of diversity and I think it's a work in progress um, because things don't change overnight I recognize that um in the work that I do, but I think that if a um university And an administration takes it on um to be intentional about the work that they're doing I think that they can create a strategy for getting there um, and hopefully they will get there within a reasonable amount of time by setting benchmarks and and strategies and um ways that they are going to engage with their full community Yeah, and brine if you don't mind I could just You know say one thing about that too. Thank you for outlining that and and I think too about The lack of diversity as far as like the the CEOs and the business leaders in the technology space specifically the education technology space when you think about um companies like Blackboard or canvas or names that are known within the education community Most of them are you know white and in Asian men So how can we not only provide? You know spring internships for students to work on behalf of like an education technology company But also entrepreneurial experiences and tech to be like hey for three weeks build your own education technology company Right like you go start the next thing You know the next shindig or the next zoom or the next canvas or whatever it may be like there is You know so many online educational offerings like there is more than enough room for a new You know technologies and innovations and tech companies to to arise and it will be great to see More you know minority representation within the ceo's and the startups that we're seeing In the technology space and Jordan to that point. I wanted to mention one of our other And for standalone programs, which is our guild program it's Sprint internships is one and then our guild is our flagship and guild is more tailored to those students who are undeclared or undecided And we're hoping to potentially convert them to cs and is majors And just to your point during that the guild is a week long program And they have industry mentors who come in and support their work But they're also learning usually some type of technical language And they have a focus area Our George mason students did guild about two almost two weeks ago now And their focus was around ed tech And so the students learned about the ed tech community and what that means And over the course of the week They were broken into teams and the teams had to develop some type of ed tech solution And really the diversity of the Ideas that the students came up with were just blow me away or every time Because with some of those things that they some of the solutions they come up with they could actually then be Develop further into actual programs. There was one that was called I think it was called diverge and it focused on It was a task Task project task scheduling project for students who Neuro diverse students Neuro divergent students. I'm sorry and it They set up an app. They built an app They built this out in a week And they were able to show it and they showed all the bells and whistles and then As part of their project and they had to critique it and decide, okay What additional supports do I need to put in place to be able to take bring this to market? And so those types of things to your point I think are are quite important in another way that we're able to Provide those opportunities to students that participate and break the tech Oh, yeah, that's amazing. Um, again, I want to have like a separate conversation I think even deeper into that especially in the the education technology one, but but that's so important I'm curious as to How how are students made aware of programs like like guild like what is the outreach effort like? So, of course, and I know brian, we're almost at time and I want to make sure that um, I'm Sensitive to that. Um, but with the each of the programs we tend to have a A small cohort that we are recruiting from because it happens within that university. So, um At university of maryland their guild is in august their guild is in august for george mason they did theirs in early june and They send it out amongst their student body There are Community colleges with whom they work and some of those students may be transferring in The george mason or into university of maryland and they share information there as long as a student is affiliated with the university Then um, they can apply to the program And then there's a criteria that the university will Has developed they are students are accepted into the program and then they decide whether they want to participate And guild has a a stipend for that week. Um, a small stipend, um, but it does help to offset um any Minor costs that they may have for that week if they have to travel in or um something like that So it's usually within the compliance of that university Yeah, thank you for that That sounds great. That sounds great We have one question that came in that builds on a previous point and I want to make sure we get to this In our last few minutes together. This is from uh, again from ellen you who says tagging onto donnie's question earlier Have you thought about looking at it departments in higher ed institutions as quote companies to work with? um so I think do And is i'm not sure if this is regarding our spring term ship program or Are you approaching it from? um a different idea Ellen are you able to provide some clarity? Yeah, um, ellen if you oh, I can beam you up on stage too if you'd like uh I'll see what she gets to give her a minute more. Oh spring term spring term ship program. Okay Yes, so we do um utilize them for to host spring term ships and We work within the universities. Um, each of the universities have um different departments that also may support and host spring terms Um, so that's great. But yes, we do to answer your question. Yes We do look at them as a company Because they have real life projects that they want Students to work on or have um projects that someone should work on for a period and they may not have The staff bandwidth to be able to support. So we do Yes Yeah, I would assume that would be local so the kids that are at maryland would be trying to find a local spring term ship in the area geographical area versus anywhere in the u.s. Well mostly however, um because we are in this now virtual world, um, we have the opportunity to be able to provide virtual opportunities and so We work we have one company already that is signed on for our 2023 spring term ship that is based in new jersey Um, and the spring turns will be coming from the dc metro area And they will be doing that virtually. Um, and we are looking at some other companies who will be hosting virtual Sites for us in january of next year. So we're always Open to that as an opportunity and especially for those students. We do have students who travel home Um during the summer or i'm sorry during the winter break when we usually do our spring term ships And those virtual opportunities work. So we are open To host from really anywhere in the country, but anywhere that our students would then be able to Reasonably be able to support Thank you Oh, thank you elin. Good question. Good idea. I can imagine all kinds of possibilities coming from this Um, so elin, let me let you climb off the stage. Jordan. Let me stop Now hosting you on the stage all the time. Although, you know, again bearded guys, you know, a special thing, right? special group And donna this is this is terrific. I feel like we're in meeting you and learning about your work It's like we're just wading into the first, you know, the first step of a giant wave of change How can how can people keep up with what you're doing? How can people Follow and uh and learn more Definitely. Um, so we breakthrough tech dc is on many social channels Instagram as well as twitter our sites george mason and The breakthrough tech programs at george mason and university of maryland have Presence on social media, but I would encourage you all to follow our breakthrough tech Linked in site That has they compile a lot of information across all of our sites not just dc But as on our computing side as well as our ai side So that is definitely a way To stay engaged. You can also visit our website, which is dc dot breakthrough tech dot org Again dc dot breakthrough tech dot org and you go there It has all of the links to our all of our social media handles so that It's easy. You don't have to write anything down or remember if you just go to that site You can you see a little bit more about what we what we do Um and learn a little bit more about our students and our sites at university of maryland and george mason On the on the bottom left of your screen You all should see a kind of a mustard colored button. That's his breakthrough tech dc and that should take you to the website directly um Oh great, um, I think people are going to be following you like mad as a result We have one question that came in. I don't want to miss this. That's just snuck in Uh, this is just a snuck in friend and a great one. This is from fiddling Who asks the very basic course level? How will rubrics and content and computer science and information sciences be different to be inclusive? That's a very direct very practical very material question That's an interesting question. Um And i'm not sure if I would be the most appropriate person to answer that Uh, just because it varies by site It really varies by the curriculum of that particular university and I think that My colleagues at university of maryland and george mason would be able to answer that More succinctly than I would be I wonder donna maybe Not not next week, but but down the road a bit. Maybe we could uh host you In a panel session and bring on some of those faculty and some of those students Oh, that would be great. I'd really like that. I'll follow up afterwards Okay, and I have to say afterwards because somehow it's three o'clock Somehow you've just taken us through a wonderful tour of of the growing vistas of what you're doing with breakthrough tech dc Thank you so much donna. I really just appreciate all the work you're doing and that you chose to take an hour to share with us Thank you so much. Thank you brian and thank you for everyone who joined us today and for the great questions Well, that's that's what we do. That's what we do here in the forum We ask great questions, but don't go away yet friends. Let me just point out where we're headed next If you'd like to keep talking about this topic about how to support women and other presented minorities in technology Um on twitter just use the hashtag ftte or just tweet at me brian alexander at schindig events Or if you'd like hit up my blog at brian alexander.org If you'd like to go into the past and look at our previous sessions about computer science as well as about dei Just go to tinyurl.com slash ftf archive. We have a whole bunch there Looking ahead to still more issues again that form the future of education at us You can see the topics that we're looking at everything from public higher ed to free speech and the paradigm project And if you want to share any of your work including your work of dei shoot me a note I'd be delighted to share it with the whole community in the world And let me just close by echoing what our wonderful guest just said. Thank you all for your questions and thoughts Uh, it's just been a wonderful hearing from you. It's been great to further advance this cause And thank you all for thinking together with all of us. I hope you're all safe I hope you're all cool where you need to be cool and warm where you need to be warm and dry when you need to be dry Um above all take care be safe and we'll see you next time online Bye-bye


This week's episode is sponsored by Change. Change is an online mentoring program that teaches people with no experience how to create a real profitable online business and e-commerce. I have been working with Ryan at Change for a few years now and attended many events and got to meet the amazing community of like-minded people. These guys are the best of the best. The support these guys offer is personal, no bots or employees. There's no experience needed but like anything in life it takes time as it's a real business with real results. For more information go check out Ryan on Instagram at RyanGyB and he will guide you through the steps to help build a successful business. You can now follow me on all my social media platforms to find out who my latest guest will be and don't forget to click the subscribe button and the notifications bell so you are notified for when my next podcast goes live. Any son or any brother or any father would probably do anything to protect their mum. Yours would now at hand and you've done a fairly straight. But first and foremost how's things? Life's alright, could be better. How so? But, eh, better hours and stuff. I thought there was such on that whenever.  How you enjoying Glasgow? Brilliant. First time I've been here, brilliant. Just like a dirty version of Manchester City said though. Is this the first you've been out in Manchester? Yeah, as far as I've been is in a cave. Before we get into everything Dan, I'd like to go back to the start of my guess. Get a bit of information about you, where you grew up, how it all began. I grew up in Manchester. East Manchester, Clayton, Newly, from them areas. Started off in life with twin sister and two older sisters and mum and dad. Mum and dad separated when I was round about seven. Me and my twin sister and my two older sisters stayed with my dad. My mum went off with a new fella. Two, three years into their relationship, we had twins to this man. And that's where the story started. Ever at school? Yeah, I missed the last year of secondary school. I had no interest in school really. I appreciate learning in them days. More interested in motocross bikes, more than anything else. I had a brain, about the car crash when I was 15. 105 mile an hour car crash.  That never got sort of discovered until 18 years later sort of thing. So, yeah, my mum's relationship with the fella, Rocky from the word go, you know what I mean? Being a seven, eight, nine year old kid, you'll really recognise it. You know what I mean? But as you get a bit older and older and older, you start seeing it and you start realising the cupboard door hasn't broken, smashed a light in or anything like that, you know what I mean? So yeah, my mum's relationship with Rocky, with her fella, but on the other half, my dad, best man you could ever wish for, brought four and six kids up, my dad, which his arse off, died 60 years old, right out of blueberry cancer. So that was a massive loss to my life, you know what I mean? Missing all them years with my dad hurts. So yeah, I grew up with my dad, with my four sisters, me, I won't class them as step-brother and sister, but brother and sister, simple as that. They lived with me, my mum and dad, with me, my mum.  He's threatening to take Sally and Scott to Scotland where he's from, unfortunately. He was threatening to take the two twins to Scotland and probably capable of doing it. Reckless guy. He kept on beating my mum from, like I said, another four years after they broke up. Mum used to pull the police in and say, I'll be alright once he's sobered up, someone and so on. Had a bit of a rep in the area, a bit of an hard guy. Known locally, fun enough as mad jock. Had much imagination in that one. But yeah, he was a bit of a vicious guy, you know what I mean? And I was just like an 18, 19-year-old kid getting on with life. That was it, basically.  Or were you running out of prison before? No, didn't lead that type of life. Been in trouble with the police, car related and stuff like that. One wound in charge, got someone breaking in my car. They got a crack. They went mornin' to the police. Criminal long as their arms anyway.  So never been to prison before this life sentence. No violence apart from that. Section 20 wound, I think it was, like say, serious, but not serious enough to warrant a prison sentence. But had a car crash when it was 15. The oldest sister seemed to be the only one who recognized there was a change in me. More snappy, more volatile, more standoffish, that type of thing, went back down. So, 19 question. Like I say, he's been smacking me mum around for the last four years. Police have done nothing about it. I'm getting a bit old, I think it's my responsibility to look after my mum like I've done with my sisters and so on. This 19 question. The other day, my mum's out with her, my sister's and her mate.  He'd automatically presume she's out with the daughters. They're waiting in the garden when she comes rolling home at 12 or whatever. Give her a slap, whatever. So, early on in the night, I overhear my mum talking and he's been around, giving me my mum a slap, that type of thing. And I just, aw, I just thought, I'm gonna get me my mum that night in the taxi. Simple as that.  Me and my mum. I pulled the taxi over. Taxi driver was moaning. Me and my mum got out of the taxi. Mum didn't want me to go in front of him, making things worse, but she was trying to deter me. Simple as that. I want to have none of it. Me and my mum took off.  Me and my mum went, I didn't think it'd be in the house.  Giving my course to have a pissed off with me rather. Me and my mum sort of attitude, you know what I mean? I'd say 18, not thinking clearly. Drink as well. Play the part, got to have. Entered his house. Have a confrontation with him. So it's going me in English, boss, did you not leave him? Stuff like that. Goes to smack me. I smack him, he falls back into a chair.  And sadly, yeah, being a death with it. Fond an ambulance because he had no intent to go around in anyone. Had the intent of standing up for himself. He was a confrontation there. But that was the last thing I'd be mind. Like I say, clouded with drink as well. 18-year-old. And not putting any spin on it or any blame on it. But facts are facts.  So that would have affected me. Even like medication. I had some medication, I was on for a damaged wound. Shouldn't have drank with why she should have been on him. So things like that. I don't know, I'm not putting a spin on her blame. Had me from day one. I did kill the guy and done. End of, you know what I mean? So please say to me, mother, do you think it's your son who's killed George? My mum's a staunch woman, my mum. You know, simple as that, right?  Right? So please have just said to me, mum, do you think it's your son who's killed George? And my mum has said, no, Scott's only eight years old. Or seven years old. Left me right out of the equation. I get nicked three days later or something. They went, me must have presumed, right? She knew all about it, blah, blah, blah. Nick me mum with manslaughter.  I know people who've stabbed someone to death and got done for manslaughter. How can my mum get done with that? So my mum gets done with manslaughter and perverting the cause of justice or something like that. Mum's in jail. Barely my, she got two twins of seven years. Eight years old the day I got arrested. There was. So she's been taken away from them. Then they get the most shittiest legal team you could imagine. Burton and Copeland solicitors. My macca. Somebody right down the river gets me a QC. Enricus. Enric, Richard Enricus or whatever you called. Lord.  But I met him once and he said, open and shut manslaughter case. Blah, blah, blah. Simple as that. He'd be home in about six, seven. You're okay. Go on court for trial. You get me to one side so be struck a deal with the ACPS.  I'm happy with it. But I also consider myself as not being in cell mind of making that judgement as well. Considering the injury what I started to realise they had a few years later. And what I mean by that is I told the court when you nick for someone serious, you get interviewed, court appointed psychiatrist. I told him of a serious car crash and all he put in a report was Mr South was home with a serious car crash, brain damage, question mark. But it's too late in the day to chase anything up because the case goes in front of the crown in two weeks time. Now, when a Dr Peter Pratt examined me 18 years later for a pro report, he was gobsmacked that I've been in so long due to the circumstances and stuff like that. And he said that interviewing me for like say four hours like he was getting paid for. He said can he interview you all week sort of thing and he did and to load a test and so on and so on. And his basically findings was I would have been suffering from brain damage from at that area at that time and it would have around about three years to heal. And in that time it would have been volatile etc etc. I wouldn't have been in sound mind. I genuinely thinking probably the law and I spoke into some people in the law and they've all said that would have been diminished responsibilities if that would have been known. I could have walked free for like two years for that. So pleaded Gille, this is where I think the judge was wrong, judge pressed. He was shocked. He was absolutely shocked that one minute I'm going not Gilly all the way from day one going not Gilly for murder simple as that. The moment I've got a court trial, I've changed it. He was gobsmacked. What he should have done is stop proceedings, got everyone downstairs and said yeah what the fuck's going on? What are you promising? You know he's changed from this to that. What he did do is he wrote in a statement saying which is there saying accept there was no intention to kill or cause grievous bodily harm. He said he's had it for eight years. That eight years made nothing. Ended up doing 29 years.  That blows my mind and it does make me better but I won't let the bitterness get in the way because like I say, that gentleman in you today you've had an easy ride in your life. You've turned a corner and that's what I'm into. I mean nothing's going to defeat me simple as that. See when you came out of that house did you know he was dead? Yeah. Straight away? Yeah. And what's going through your mind then? Once you know you've killed someone? Yeah. Scared. You know?  That's a start. Getting caught ruining your own life selfishly. It sounds you've just took someone but you do start thinking about yourself. You do. Automatically. It is. Yeah, not good. Knowing your life is going to be getting switched off for a very long time at any moment. And it did. You know what I mean? In that time, like I say, I went to jail as a kid, as a teenager got dumped into the adult system and which was one of the best things could have ever happened to me in the sense. Landed at Foursawton as a kid. He threw me on the worst wing. Got in Beirut. Met some of the best people in my life there. You know what I mean? So that set me in good stead and I only said it recently to someone. They didn't take me under the wing. They had a lot of respect for me as a young age. And they did look after me without realising it. You know what I mean? These was like, you know, London lads and Ya Ya Ray lads and stuff like that. Like I say, met one Brendan Dowd. Beautiful Irish guy. Beautiful man. You know what I mean? So I've seen a lot of lifeers who are in for domestic crimes, domestic murders. Never go to a dispersal. Cat bees, cat seas and these type of thing. I had decades in the dispersal system getting bounced around the dispersal system even though I had a tiny tariff.  You know what I mean? What was it like for you when you've done a murder? You've got a leave sentence.  It's hard to explain it because it becomes the norm. Right?  I can't even explain it myself. And I said to me, mate, day old one day, he said, how did you get through it? And I said, the belief that's something nicer come out at the end of it. Still not come yet. Well, I'm waiting. But that's the belief what got me through it.  Segregation unit, so it wasn't the best-behaved prisoner, but it wasn't the worst.  No control of the system. Dispersal systems. Early 90s.  But it was a good life as in the best she was going to get.  But I'd rather do an army sentence in the dispersal rather than going down to these poxy-cat cities any day of the week full of mugs. Yeah, yeah, man, iris.    And that's the easiest way I can describe it. So seeing you get an eight-year tariff in your mind, how big a sentence do you think you would have done? I thought I'd do about 12. I thought I'd do about 12, mate. Yeah. So how do you get an eight-year tariff and then spend 30 years in prison? Were you doing damage inside? Yeah, here's an example. I was in one jail waiting to go to a cap day.  It's going to get going in front of the judicator in two days' time, like the outside judge and get extra days. He's gone in there saying I'm going to escape. All right? Don't need to escape.  I'm hoping to go to a cap day. He's acted on it. They've moved him out of the jail so he don't go in front of the outside the judicator. So in four days' time, he's out, he's gone home. They've moved me to full-sorting all over again. Got there. Person, security governor. I said, do you remember me from years back? He was a security governor now. He said, I can't believe what the police have said and the other jail have said. I don't have you out of here in no time. Spend another six years there. Four years, five years there.  Then you can't get parole. Then you're going on a parole here and try to defend yourself. What? No one. You know what I mean? I've been in stripes a few times in full-sorting and places like that when I was a young lad. Yeah, nearly had that out of there. Me and someone who was interviewed, we was thinking of it. We would have been on our way home, you know what I mean? Then they'd sign me up with someone over an IRA file escape attempt. But I mean, that's what I'm doing.  That's doing me wish I was part of it.   And when you're going for parole, nitpicking, nitpicking over bollocks. He won't go to work. So what?  You know what I'm saying? He won't work.  He's having a bad day. Or he can't let him out.  And here's the thing, right? I went on a parole hearing for a son. A psychiatrist for the parole board, Asia King, she was in a wheelchair. She was a cracking woman. So fair. First time I met her. A judge and the parole board guy.  A psychologist. He called out lying. He said, I've asked you sweaty questions. Are you going to lie? You know what I mean? Told you straight. Told me lie for office. He was just sat in the fence.  And then nitpicking.  Because she's left the door wide open.  She's, give me a right, right. You shouldn't be going home. Because the back's left even two minutes.  And the parole board hammered the system. Amid it. I'm going home. I'm going home.  Got to me in the view, you know. Prisons said, oh you've got to stop the interview with the parole area now. Because we've been on it nine hours or something. So the judge said to me, don't worry. We're going to come back in six weeks time. Everyone's going to be the same. All we're going to do is interview you. Your interview. Your evidence comes up to scratch, which I think it will. I think you'll be having a different December. Come sick me parole area in six weeks later. Brand new parole area. Everything for them lies. What the prison service said about me. They've just brushed them up and give evidence in a better way. So I got knocked back again. So I wrote to the judge. The same judge who was on the parole area in six weeks earlier.   I'm going to go to court. I'm going to say this is what I've done it. I'm going to have loads of convicted murderers who've been out. We've done atrocities. Sometimes worse than me. We've done 10 years less than me. They're all going to say, can't you blame him snapping? Don't I go through that role? You knew I was going home that last time. Some span I got put in the work somewhere. Everyone was shocked. Even the screws coming off my parole area. They said, you've got this. You can have the board what you had smashed it. I didn't mean that. I didn't even praise my scene. Has anyone ever put a page on the back? I said, what? He said, not being in shoes lines. I said, nah. He said, I think they're remarkable. Well, you've got through this, that and the other. Next minute, cats in prison. Moved to a DC cat then. Buckley all, which was a good thing. Because as soon as I went on. So all my parole areas up until going to a cat's say was seven hours, nine hours. Wrote that letter to the judge saying I'm pissed off with your underhanded what everything's been done. I'm going to expose him.   Eight years out of. I know people have done a 15 year sentence for an armed robber as an adult. Get out, do two contract killings and do 10 years less than me.  You know, IRA goes and blows an old teller put over here. Got nothing against the IRA whatsoever. Met some of the beautifulest men in my life who are the IRA. Point of making is this.    Where's the injustice in that? Where's the old disproportionate that is? And that's what eats away at me. How hard does that when you see people who've done worse than you doing 10 years less than your 15 years less? I'm glad they've gone out.    But the people I've met are like your armed robbers and your drug importers and stuff like that. Even killers. Some of the people are the best, nicest people I've ever met. They've just been caught up in a circumstance like me.  You know, I may be someone now who can justify.  I had the best day of my life in that good karma. I started learning that as an adult. Because you've got to remember, I lost all my adult life being in prison. All my adult life has been spent in prison.  Or rebelling against it and then just being spent years down with segregation units and stuff like that. No bed and all that carry on, you know what I mean? So, yeah, some of the best people I have met with quality people, you know what I mean? You've took a wrong turn. What was it like your first year in Christmas doing a life? Horrible. Horrible, you know what I mean? I had a girlfriend recently when I went to prison.  Which was expected anyway, obviously. But, you know, everything's brand new that first year.  Slot note back then. Slapping out in them days, you know what I mean? No radio, no electrics and stuff like that. So, bare basics in them days. So, a lot of people never experienced them in prisons, you know what I mean? I'm glad they did. So, yeah, Christmas just comes and goes, you know what I mean? But, yeah, never thought I would just spend that many Christmas in jail, though, way.  Nasty cunts or orges. But, that one had got me nowhere, because you can't win the system. No, you can't beat the system.  And I've seen so many good people die in the system. You know, like I was watching Summit Live a week and all I'd say is in my eyes, you know what I mean? We couldn't even make Charlie Sosa. I had some good times with Charlie, man. And he got a big one, got another big one. I don't know what happened, but he called it a day. I believe he killed himself. So, yeah, I've met some really good, beautiful people who, yeah, breaks me out. Breaks me out. Do you see a lot of suicide then? I've seen a fair few, yeah. What that is, especially? Like I say, the one that always sticks in my mind is, I'd say I was a young lad, and kind of like Desi Cunningham, beautiful man. You know what I mean? If you went out with him, you'd get all the birds. Stop, lad, staunches, you staunch, come from a staunch family. All his brothers are staunched. Don't know his brothers, but there's a, he used to cook for me. He used to make me some lovely meals. Yeah, I think he was doing an eight scene or something. He was like 18 months left, and he killed himself. So, don't know the circumstances part, right? But yeah, that sticks in my mind that because I always seen if anyone like that can do it, you'd have him in your corner. All day long, you know what I mean? One staunch guy. So if someone like him can do it, someone who I thought was so strong you could just do the sentence. Like I say, at the end of his sentence as well. So if anyone can do it, like him, we're all vulnerable in that sense. How many deaf NGOs you've been in, Dan? Oh, I bounced around about 35 or something, bounced around everywhere, so I think for years, you know, blocks of block and that type of stuff. But it just becomes the norm, doesn't it? What's the most pressing you've been in? Forrest Bank. Forrest Bank. Who's that? Salford, Manchester. What the shit's all? Private.  So if you're swearing, by wearing there where I was a pretty cold, poor, a madhouse. Corrupted as they come, bringing drugs in, phones in, screws.  Don't be doing that.  One day, there was a lad who was cutting his neck in his cell, about 19-year-old, cutting his neck right over to a screw, said, yeah, go and get him out, she went.  I said, open the door, go and speak to him. No, because everyone will want that then. So there's no compassion for you. But obviously, there's some good offices in there.    In there. In there? In there? In there? In there? In there? In there? In there? In there? In there? In there? Well... 10 years I'd say. 10 years of being... I don't want to say loose cannon, but I also wouldn't say bad enough to justify spending years and years in jail. I don't mind Mr. Meen as 20 in prison. I'm all up together. You're waving more in six-week in jail, out there, now if there's schar� you don't exist.  Don't justify keeping me in for another two years. for two years, not in my eyes anyway, but yeah, mud one. Behind the 80s, 90s, like the Scrooge World, we used to kickfuck at you in the 60s, 70s, did you ever feel that, did you ever get any beats from them?  What's the best, pros in your brand? So, let's say Buckley Hall as a prison as a whole, best dispersal opinion, what I said, full sign, they all have the times, they all have the times, you know what I mean, long line, long line would have been the best dispersal in the 90s, early 90s, freedom done what you wanted, got paid in silver done what you wanted, really what you wanted, it wasn't a matter of control jail, it was, long term it's don't want headaches, don't want the wings getting spun, all the usual whatever they're doing, getting found, do you want an easy life, you know what I mean, these ain't dickheads, so as a jail where you could just have a decent life, chill out, not have any aggravation with the screws, stayed away from you, we stayed away from them, I'd say long line in them days, yeah, but as a prison to get like, just get your head down, like I say, I can't class long line as the best prison to, as a whole, to get out from, but for me I'd say Buckley Hall. What's the longest you've spent in a block?       A few grand now.  But me and him, ate it off, he'd come in my cell every morning, can cook breakfast, couldn't fucking, I'm not a minding person, you know what I mean?     Were you ever involved in any of the rights, pleasant rights? Been in a few, in a few but never been nicked for him and stuff like that, I'd say was in one in a full song. What's that adrenaline like when there's no one going to kick off?   In them days everyone was staunch, everyone stood by each other, fought with us and were coming for your sort of attitude.  Ain't good, you know what I mean, the the makeup of the prison service now is so different, the dispersal systems, so what they once was.   Used to be like that. The staunchest people I've seen in prison was the colonies in the Scoutsers, by far. Yeah, I'd say that, yeah, definitely by far. Scoutsers are mad bastards, aren't they? They kind of live a city within their own city, kind of hanging out over there. Right, so Manchester, I like Glasgow Manchester, Liverpool, Leeds, Birmingham, London, all tough bastards. I've come from, I've come, I've met top lads from all of them cities, you know what I mean?    Scoutsers, I love the Scoutsers always say this, like, I don't know, man, it's just something about them, they're just- The staunch.   How many times did your appeal get rejected for release? About 12 times, most of the time I couldn't go for parole because yeah how many times did your parole get rejected? About 10 times, about 10 times yeah, and how is that every two years? Every two years, but here's the thing, this is why I ended up doing some many years, so I'll say for instance, when I'm the first in November now and I get a two-year knockback, by right my parole hearing should be first of November in two years time, that's when the process starts, so it takes nine months then, so you've waited two years, then it takes another nine months for the reports to get written, then a date's got to be set for the parole hearing and someone won't be able to be available, so I would get put back another three months, then another three months, I waited once, 22 months for an answer, a parole answer, which was a KB, a knockback and the knockback started, from the moment I got the knockback, I've been waiting two years for the knockback, so really it's four years. So see when you get 10 rejections for your parole, does you ever think you're getting out?  Was there any cases similar to you, who was maybe doing a 30 or a 40 stretch for something?  It's so one sided and the government say we don't deal with terrorists, why the fuckers, you know what I mean?        My younger sister picked me up at Salle and like I say, it was her biological dad who over murdered, how did, what did she say about it? She came on my crawl every once at Salle and she said to the pro board, I think it's disgraceful how long my brother's been in, my dad was a nasty man, blah, blah, blah and you're just ripping our family apart, keeping my brother in any longer and yeah, the right attitude against that, the pro board and she told me, she told me, I asked, he had another daughter and the probation service got in touch with our Salle saying this other daughter wants to get in touch with her, so they agreed and when our Salle met her, she said, how's your dad doing?     You did? Yeah, and I could have, yeah, so try not look too much into that sort of thing because it puzzles me sometimes, you know what I mean? Yeah, it's right, yeah. But like I say, when anyone asks me about how you got through it and that, I don't have an answer or maybe you do have an answer but I just can't explain it, I don't know.  You said it's tough fucker from up here, Bob Carothers. Yeah, Big Rob, yeah, passed away as well. Yeah, another one, you know what I mean? Yeah, he was tough man, the Krillers. Yeah, you know. He was friends with Paul Ferris. Yeah, another gentleman, you know what I mean?  You know what I mean?  No people have met him and know him and that.  I said, no, I've got regrets of missing time with my mum and dad, use my sisters, my brothers, my nieces and nephews and all that, like missing kids and stuff like that. But apart from anything else, no, I don't, because one, I could have only met these people on the journey what I was on. And some of the people I've met in prison, I've not met people as good out here. I've had people in prison do me more good in a week than I've had people on my life do out here. You know what I mean? Really good, true bond friendships, you know what I mean?  And the two strangers just come together at circumstances, so I've met some beautiful people in that sense, you know what I mean? So I would have never met them people, and I would have never swapped that for nothing. That's mad the cards people get dealt in life.   Yeah, of course I would, yeah. Or would you kind of just, because you could have obviously killed your mum? Yeah.  I never do. Maybe I'm wired up a little bit different, I don't know. Would you change that night though? Of course I would, yeah. Anyone who said no, I'd do the same, knowing the consequences of what you are going to go through, but not what you might go through. Anyone that'd have to be a filter to choose it, because, I don't know, 30 years out here, then 30 years in there, because I've done more life, I've done more living as an adult in prison than ever outside, you know what I mean?  But like we said before, I have seen some really strong soldiers, some really strong soldiers, strange people who've summits happened in the brain, the less fortunate in me, and I'm here to, you know, start living one step at a time, so I think, you know what I mean? So I'm fortunate in that sense, and I'm so fortunate that my sisters and that see me like that as well, you know what I mean? I've not got a close family anymore, always happens when your parents break down, you know, my dad died 20 years ago, you know, unexpected, my mum died. So our family, so I've drifted apart a little bit, and it probably would have drifted apart more and quicker if my mum wasn't there. So glad my mum did get to see her boy come home, because that's what she wanted more than anything, you know what I mean? Do you think she stayed there like for you again? I reckon so, yeah, I do, and it was very strange, and my mum died, just killed over the next day when she was putting up for them royals, but the day before, she was adamant, adamant to see her new granddaughter, and took me over granddaughter out for tea. So I was like, she was adamant to go and do that to my mum for some reason, and she just killed over my sister found her, her and my mum's cup of tea was still up, so it just happened, you know what I mean? So I'm glad that I got out, because I don't know how it would have felt.   So I'm glad I got out, and my mum got to see that, see me get out, you know what I mean? Did you get out with your dad's funeral?     So, yeah, and like I say, it was a mark of respect for me dad, you know what I mean?    How long you on there on for? Six months, and you wonder how you done a fairy? Yeah, I just got home in my life. Well, was it like you're skating for six months? It was great. What happened that day, talking through the whole day?    Yeah, so I did that because I said, spent, I've done 15 years over tariff by then, you know what I mean? So, enough is enough.  Listen, some countries you've got the right to escape, good on them, where's that, what, go and live there, you know what I mean? Yous have got better laws than us, you know what I mean? I think it is barbaric that you can go back to prison for some misdemeanorship, and where, where, where is the, imagine it, right?   How can you start making ends meet and having a life, when everything's, yeah, living on eggshells, everything can be taken away like that, you can do something wrong without even knowing you've done something wrong, you know? Associated with some, recall your ask questions, but there's got to be a better way to punish you. Seem you were on the trot, where did you go? I had a nice little flat, and I was just going out to work, yeah?  I was like, what then? Fingerprints, all right.  Me mate, it's just shitting it more than me, I just, I just got on with my life, I don't wear white to get on with my life, I didn't think like, well, I'm looking over my shoulder, just getting on with it.  Did you change your appearance or anything?  My man went, that's the life, that's the life. I wasn't even looking for Charlie Bronx, you know what I mean? So yeah, I just got on with my life and I believe that he was a mention in the paper, I think a journalist done it for me, he was a mention like, you know, one here, blah, blah, blah, in the paper, dangerous. And someone pointed out to him, a journalist from the Guardian. And he changed it and said, apologize, he ain't dangerous, he's one of the dangerous persons I think.  We could have had you a few times, you know.  So I wasn't no afraid in that sense. And like I say, same situation with Alan Lord and people like that. You've done no bad, bad, bad, but they just keep treating you like... Be so sure.  Now I had, you proceed through the system, I remember once I went on a prowl hearing, right? He was going on over me, threatening to throw boiling water over the screw, right? I said it in a flippant remark, 15 years earlier. My legal team went, got no notice of this. When was it? I think about the last six months. 1994. My legal team went, you know, it was 15 years ago, I know. Going on about it, because he had nothing else to go on. So he was making a big mountain over that.  I said, no, I didn't threaten, didn't have it in me hand doing that.   You get it again. Something like that, flippant remark. 15 years later, going mad on me prowl hearing.   And that's his own door for, say, you know, and I've never had anybody. I've never had anybody say, you're about to come for what you've done. Never had it. And I've sought to source ranges. Like I say, was in a really fancy art gallery doing business with them, buying some of it. And they all know me background and stuff like that.  Never been treated like that. You know what I mean? So I just always had the intention of just getting on with my life and being a decent person, you know what I mean? And I have got some good values and good ethics, you know? Now, it's nice to be nice in it. And like I say, being in them situations in prison where everything's just volatile in a confrontation.  Seeing you were on your toes and you get caught, you thinking that's me fuck? Yeah. I'm never getting out. Yeah. Really did.  Funds probably. Loving your mother as well? Yeah. Did you not want to leave her? That wouldn't have been the case.  My sisters would have had that attitude. They would have.  You know, they're seeing contract killers and terrorists coming home after 10 years, 11 years. Their poor brother's still in after 20 years. They just wanted to see me have some kind of life, you know what I mean? And like I say, I'm not this person who's been in prison. This is my first time in prison. My first time. You know what I mean?  It wasn't the case. So my sisters would have had, my sisters would have been made up if I was abroad on my toes, living the life, living. What have? Obviously they didn't get to that. That and obviously I got out legally instead, which is a good thing.  I don't think it can be justified. And I would love some top legal people and stuff like that. Because when I was speaking to a QC Barrister, I got the Alexson female speaking to her and a show on her, that transcript where the judges said there was no premeditation to kill Harko's grievous body arm. She straight away said she looked shocked at a profession and she said, dad, that's not a murder case. So I would love someone who's willing to have a battle with the system, take my legal case on and get some justice and some answers. But the one's nicest thing I would like out of life, right at this moment, I've lost my mom, I've lost my dad, I've lost lots of other people. And said to me probation officer one day, I don't expect you to turn around and say to me, it's totally justified what the system has done. You've not done it to me, but the system.  And she did. And that meant a lot to me that. Now we're going, well, darling, I don't really know the circumstances of this and that, that, that.  I just want to hear you as a human being. You know what I mean? For your prison uniform or your probation badge or whatever. I just want to hear you. Do you think I justified doing that when you've got people doing this, this, this, this? And she said, now it isn't, darling. And that was good enough for me in that sense. So I've lost a lot, still got a lot to give. But it's like a home somewhere you could call home and start having a life and things like that, you know, set me business up. I'd like to meet an investor and put a bit of time into me and modiculate me and mould me into something better and things like that.  Got a lot of ideas and love, get up and go. Just need that portion. Sounds like we all need, you know what I mean? You'd be surprised to watch these things, darling. If anybody maybe want to get involved, they maybe want to help you and give you that extra little lift in life to give you a chance. Yeah. It's all down to you.  Nah, he's not worth it. But anybody, there's so many genuine people watch these podcasts and go, do you know what? He sounds like a good guy.  But listen, give you that opportunity. If they got in such a way, give you that opportunity. Yeah, of course you can. They can drop me a message on Instagram, Facebook, email and I can pass the message on. First of all, make sure they're legit. Yeah. So there's a lot of chances out there as well. But there is genuine people out there who go, do you know what?   And like you say, he don't dawn on me sometimes of how long I've been away. Because sometimes I still feel like I'm 21. Fit. You know what I mean? I'm not. So a lot of years in life has passed me by.  And I was just looking at all the business people in the offices, living life, going to work, careers.  I missed out on all that. You know what I mean? And it doesn't...  I really do believe that. And I think that's the be all and end of it. Me motivation of getting out and digging deep.  Never. Just accept it. So I think, you know what I mean? Where I've seen other people who are not getting out. So they've just accepted it, you know what I mean? But I knew I had a lot more to give. I knew we had a slight chance of getting out. Remember once I bumped into Delroy showers who's a bit of a shot from Liverpool. And I used to say to him, I'll be getting out me.  And when I bumped into him when I was out, he went, you know, nephew, he calls me nephew. I said, what? He went, I don't think you'd get out, you know. I said, listen, keep the faith mate. I knew it would. I just had to box clever. And I realised the pen was my ear and the sword. Because I started educating myself and doing things like that. Going through the right ways, going through the courts and stuff like that. That's where I was.  I had everyone in court on my wing, taking them to the county court for this, like any of all. But I started doing that. And remember once my mate said to me, it was five to five on a Christmas evening. Tea time banged up. I banged up.  And I wrote. Screws come into my door every 15, so every minute it's checking on me. Next morning, he opened me up at half nine, half eight or something. Christmas day, our Christmas boxing day. And the screw said to the outlaw brothers, he's not moved all night. So they're just doing my only legal work. Just John speaks, didn't they work? You know what I mean? And that's what kept me alive, I think. Because I didn't used to do that side. I'd be back. All that.  It was more productive in the long run. And I think that sort of sort of kept me alive in the sense that giving me hope where I was doing something. But yeah, I would love to see some justice out of it, of course I would. Oh, God, yeah. I've never even had an apology. Saying, listen, he was a bit in excessive, you know what I mean? That'd go down nice. But I don't think anyone and on that concern around say, yeah, it's justified what we've done to this man. Especially when you're letting contract killers out after doing 15 years, 20 years, you've killed two people. And you've got to also bear in mind, I've not committed no acts of violence ever since my ex-offence. You know what I mean?   Nothing but violence. Uh, yeah, I've seen someone stabbed to death. Yeah, seen that. A few times, things like that.  Deserved it as well. It's that one that I can't do that. So he was getting it anyway.   Melody's head. That's not sugar and war. This is something else. This is cooking fat.  Like, nae palm. I've seen nothing but that. I've seen naughtiness like that. And yeah, how the other half live, eh?    Just leads to naughtiness, don't it? Like I say, my area's seen a lot of naughtiness where I came from. Like I say, notorious case 12 years ago.  I know all them. No one is at the end of the day if it is there. It's just ruined lots and lots of lives. Lots of poor lads never coming home, ever. And some of them who have got 33 rex.  I said, you're forgetting, I got mine as a kid. 18, 19, not 33. Big difference.  And I say, at the end of it, he's not a winner at the end of it.  I want people who will love to have a better life.  I mean, like I say, I've never thought about writing a book. I've had people say to me, probation officers and people like that, loads of times you've got a book in you.  You know, I mean, I can, I don't know what it is, but I've never, I've looked at these people who write books and I've just thought, I can't understand these people who write books and that admitting shit from years back. I can't understand that.  Yeah, yeah, I killed booking Johnny Ninefingers six years ago, blah, blah, blah. I don't know all that. So I've never thought about a book in that sense, but I've had a lot of people say to me, you know, some of you have got a book in you and looking at that, I probably would like to be, if I had that chance, I probably would like to go down that road. Like they told me, they told me new to me this and maybe be a good book where it was, that's like necessarily a self-help book. Okay, I don't know if they work, but I'd like to see some positive revenue just being a crime book. Yeah, definitely. And that's the thing about these podcasts, that people get to tell their story and what happens as it gives them a new lease of life, gives them the confidence.  You don't have fair history. I was never apprehensive at meeting you and we've said that this morning. Like I say, I didn't read anything. A couple of them have spoken on the phone and I knew, I clicked with you straight away, I knew you was a tough guy, you know what I mean? Never mind speaking to everyone in your city last night. Offer you be lines of coke and everything. Give me your phone number, you said, I said, what for? I'm going to have some coke. James's good stuff, I said, nah, mate, I'll be on form in the morning. I'm looking all the way back at some girl called Lindsay. She's spot on at Lindsay, she was good stuff. But yeah, I wasn't apprehensive at doing this. I knew that doing anything like this is different being, where you're being recorded and stuff like that.  I've got a few flaws in my life, obviously, and we all.  So glad I've got a chance to have a life. And I know though what's good to listen to being, that's in this sense, all these people who are doing whatever. Oh, they don't have to go through this shit, that's a go for it. You know what I mean? I don't wish on anyone, you know what I mean?  You're paying for it.  Never mind my sisters and things like that. So there's been no winners out of this. And like I say, I could easily be better, could easily be like that. But then there's going to be no winners than is there. I have got a lot to give. I'd like to be that cheerful, happy person. Like I say, if I can turn a new page in my life, a totally new page in my life. I don't know what that page is. You views will probably have more of an idea than that, than me. I don't know, that'll probably pop it will. Like I say, someone might be able to put me, you know, write, path and submit in a totally open new set of doors. And that's what I've found as well when I got out. Insultiate with criminals. I know lots of them. And I have had nights out with one or two of them and stuff like that. But no, don't associate in that life.   I say I got out when I was doing Google business classes, come top of the class of that. And entrepreneur and stuff. I was in the room with some serious entrepreneurs and I came first, I think. So I was totally new, chapter in my life that I never thought if you said to me 10 years ago, you're gonna be like well into going to our galleries and buying really smart pieces of art and things like that. What? But when I go into these places, I feel so welcome and I can hold me home with them, you know what I mean? So at some stage I thought I was gonna get out and it was gonna just be a life of crime. So again, buckling the system, yet again, yet again, yet again. But I've got a different art and a different head to that.  Anyone in the right mind would want that, you know what I mean? Especially someone who's got kids, they'd see it as a different, I don't have that.  So what a better life for me. So he said they're getting out and being in that circle. You know, when I met up with my mate, he was a criminal. It's not a criminal relationship what we've got, because some of his mates or businessmen never brought the law in any way whatsoever. So I've been around them, good surroundings, because some good people and they're like, well-to-do business people. So I can hold my own in that sense, in that environment rather than just being in an environment full of ex-convicts, you know what I mean? And I didn't expect that. I didn't expect that. I thought I could only hold my own in that environment, because I've been in that environment so long. You know what I mean?   I'm a prison officer, I am miss, can you open the door? So I'm like, oh, yeah, excuse me, miss. Yeah, but you're going to have habits from prison, man, especially when I like it for the time you've done. For anybody that's watching, Dan, that's maybe, I don't know, kind of struggling themself, that you've spent 30 years in prison, you've got through it, you're here to tell the tale. What advice would you give for anybody that's in the struggle just now? That's free.   I've never looked at that, right? And probably one reason is, in prison, you can't speak up and say you've got a problem. If you're doing it, a sentence, a big sentence, is used against you. Say like for instance, you was depressed.   So you've got to keep it shut. And I was speaking to a mental health worker woman one day, nothing about anything, just got a conversation going. And she said to me, you've got to be suffering from PTSD and things like that. So I said, why? She said, you've got to have. You've been through pure nothing but ordeals. Then when I'm speaking to other people, like a doctor or a psychologist and people like that, they've all got the opinion as well. So I have seeked counseling, which is a first for me, you know what I mean? But it can't do me no harm. It can only bring me some good. Maybe open a different chapter in my brain. Maybe a light bulb might go off on me, as I don't know. But on the question, he's like, say, just getting out and drugs ain't the answer.  That's not the answer. Trying to get a good home. Like someone said to me, the one guy we met, he was getting out of jail. First thing you need to do is get a good bird.  All right? So you don't need a good bird. You need a home, a base. So that's everything people need to start having a life. A base.  All these hours is what you need a guarantor for. Say Manchester, say 650, 650 quid. You can't get, because you haven't got guarantor.  You get landlords who are renting hours out to the probation service. So you've got one house full of ex-cons. I was at probation every day. Someone had to say, yeah, you lived in my flat once. I said, yeah, I had it there.  Lived in it once, one night. And that's an house full of... So you'll see all your residents over a period of weeks sending probation. I don't think that's a good DNA. Having an house full of ex-prisoners all living together. I don't. So I think anyone getting in jail and living and getting out and having that life, being around that, I think it's coming out to work quite well. And these people who are going to get out and just think they're going to carry on where they left off, with their old mates and stuff like that. Good if it works out for them and they make loads of money, whatever, whatever, whatever floats the boat.    Especially, it's hard to say live your life to someone who's just done like say five years because they probably don't know where I'm coming from. You know. But someone who's just done 30 years, 25 years or whatever, I think he knows where I'm coming from.  This is a makeup break. So I say, I'm 53 me, you know what I mean?  My dad died at six there. Healthy guy never smoked and drank. So he can come at all of us.  Yeah. You know what I mean? How do you feel coming on today and telling your story? Very relaxed. Honestly, me, you, you've made me feel that journey that we had that made me feel good. You're especially what you've laid down for me, mate. Say what? Me and my friend, we've had a beautiful morning. Beautiful, everything. Beautiful shower like I told you. Beautiful, everything. And I wouldn't have swapped this day for anything. You know what I mean? And I'm prepared for anything me.  I really care. Don't care. I'll get someone who might like, some what I say, might not. Oh, I don't really care in that sense. Not come on to offend people. Not come on to say I'm the victim. But like a bit of justice, because it is lopsided and it is unjust and it is disproportionate and things like that. But yeah, so glad I've done this today. Because before I seen your podcast with Alan, I never thought about doing anything like that. Someone sort of mentioned it to me and it's just gone in and out, one in and out the other. But yeah, that's what I'm manning you today. Yeah, likewise, mate. Yeah. I'm listening for coming on and telling your story, mate. I thoroughly enjoyed that. I wish you nothing but the best for your future and for anybody that's watching. Get in contact with me if you can help Darren out with anything. We very much appreciated. I believe the guy has a chance. And like I say, mate, if you get a chance or so down to you, how do you take it or not? Would you like to finish up on anything else, Dan? I hope not offended anyone. Hope you've enjoyed it. I have. I've enjoyed meeting this man. And I hope you enjoy everything else, what this man does.  Investors, anyone who wants to help me read a book, take the system to court, bring it on. Good, man. My pleasure. James, thank you. Thank you, mate. See you later. Thank you.


Who should be featured in season three of Full Swing? Me. You have a personality that the world needs to see? No. Hopefully I can play good in Oxidope filming. I think JT posts in? I think Carl Jung is entertaining for sure. Ben Taylor.  Oh, has Ben Griffin on any of the Full Swings yet? I don't think so. Oh, he's gonna, he should be a good one. Hopefully myself. That'd be pretty cool.