Okay, we're now calling the meeting to order. And our first task is an appointment of a secretary for the meeting and Ted has already volunteered. So, that's good. So we passed without already just a quick recap the things we're doing at this meeting, we're going to review and approve the meetings from the July 23 meeting which was the last time we met. Yeah. Wow. I'll just attend back over five months ago. Project update. Talk about the friends group and timeline for planning it public comment other items not anticipated. And there's a couple little things there and then set our next meeting date. So first July 23 minutes. Very nicely written by Jack. And I don't know if anybody's had a chance to look at them or sees any issues or problems or anything with them. Anybody, any comments before we vote on whether to approve them. No comments. All those in favor of approving the minutes from July 23.  And just not allowed to vote so she didn't raise her hand. She's such a good citizen. So it looks like it was unanimous of all the committee members who are here. So we have approved the minutes. So I got an email from Dave today. Project updates. I don't know if anyone's been by the site recently. It's sort of, you know, something's happening, but it's kind of sad looking. So a lot of dirt. Here's project updates. So far the contractor has screened approximately 5000 cubic yards of fill currently stockpiled in North Amherst. They have hauled and graded 1325 cubic yards of fill to the site. Valley into I assume is that I think is the contractor has also installed a riprap tracking pad off old Belcher town road into the site a little driveway kind of so the construction vehicles can go from the road onto the site. And it says weather conditions created wet soils and fill and have prevented slash delayed or shortened many days of hauling or screening. As soon as conditions warrant in the spring, they plan to haul the remaining fill to the site and grade it out. So it sounds like things are sort of shut down till the spring. Site conditions at Ruckston and the dog park became too saturated towards the end of the season. They did their best to prevent ponding and further soil saturation before shutting down operations for the winter. The contractor has continued to turn in submittals for approval as far as materials in other words piece stone and sand. They will continue to work with a contractor during the winter to order all remaining materials, benches fencing shade structures, etc. Whether permitting challenge in the spring will be getting started as early as possible to avoid the active period of the grasshopper sparrow. So let's all keep our thoughts for a dry early spring, which would be totally against the pattern of what we've seen the last couple years. So, yeah, Ted. unmute yourself. When's the spring nesting season theoretically beginning. I think they talk about like end of June or mid mid to end June. So there's you know if they can really start doing stuff in early May. There's a shot at being done before. I believe it might be mid July, Jim just FYI. I feel like last year mid June was when they sort of were talking about if it hadn't started by then they couldn't start. But I think you're right though that it's July is when the actual nesting happens. Yeah, because they're not even sure that they will nest there so I think if they do then it's mid July but they might not. Right. And I don't think anywhere ever cited this past summer, which isn't unusual they don't necessarily expect them to be there. So that's the. Yeah. So, from your photos that did they take down that the chain link fencing along between the sidewalk and the actual landfill. Was there ever chain link fencing there there wasn't chain link fencing there. There was never any fencing there. There was restricted access, I thought. You're thinking of over on the towards root nine where the driveway is yeah where the gate is okay so there's never any fencing there's never any fencing that I couldn't remember that but yeah. Dave. Hello, can you guys hear me. Yes. Sorry I was having trouble with the link I was, it was not letting me in on my, on my phone I forgot my computer at the office. Probably Angela's fault. No, that's probably in the minutes Ted. Probably my fault. Yeah, so I just finished reading your project updates. Okay. So, I'm going to actually jump ahead, because Dave also in his email sent task force to do you know his thoughts on what are the things that need to be happening now and over the winter. And continue to fundraise but we'll talk about that in a little bit when we talk about the friends group and move forward with the friends group. Select color for shade structures I think everybody should have gotten an email today with a PDF that has colors for the shade structures and for the steel tubing components. We're going to be reviewing bench choices and colors we don't have those choices yet but they're going to be provided by DPW. So I'm sure at our next meeting we'll be talking about that. And then we'll be working with Dave to finalize design commitment for the welcoming kiosk. So let's let's talk about color for the shade structures because that's sort of something entertaining to talk about. So first of all, get that email with the attachment and look at the colors. And I should say Jack, not Jack Mike couldn't be here, but I told him I would take his vote if he wanted and he said he wanted bright and cheery colors. Remember that means Ted, I have a question. In the last meeting or one of the last meetings, I think we all agreed that we wanted to coordinate as much as possible all the various structures that are going to have some kind of a color. And, you know, what I see so far as a blue water fountain is a green doggy way stops. And then we have a choice of colors on the shade structures, and we don't know what the roof of the kiosk color options might be. And I think that in order to choose the shade structure we probably need to think about all the other colors at the same time. So is there any way Dave that we can get a I think it's a metal roof that we're planning to put on the kiosk. Is there a brand or type or can we get somebody to tell us what colors those roofs might be because that might go a long way to our decision making regarding the sale. And, you know, in terms of making them coordinate not just be a hodge hodge or clash. You're muted, you're muted Dave. I haven't thought about this in a while. Yeah, I mean it might be a chicken and egg thing I mean if you guys like. You know, I think, I think the roof color might be easier than the shade shade shade sales and to some degree because I don't think the roof is going to be like kind of a custom color. I imagine we can match the roof to just about anything but I hear you on maybe. I mean we could we could hold on that so we've got waste green I know why they chose green because our other ones in Amherst are green. That's the only color they come in. Yeah, water, the water fountains blue, I think because blue symbolizes, you know, water. We've got the shade sales, and then we've got the roof of the roof of the kiosk. And then there's both the shades shade as well as the posts right right yeah. I don't have an answer on that be certainly could hold I don't think there's any. I don't even think the blue water I mean if you guys wanted to change the blue water feature to something else, we probably could I doubt it's been ordered yet. Yeah, I can. It does come in green if we want to match the green. I think that it would be easy enough to just ask Barry Roberts what metal roofs do you like to use, you know what are the best ones and get a spec sheet on the roofs. So we can see that they're green if we decide to go with green is isn't going to clash with the other greens and everything's going to work together. Rather than selecting ordering and then looking at the rules and saying well we that's not really going to look that good together. It would be useful tonight to just us decide together what family of color we're interested in or think would be best for the site, do we want, you know, a green or brown to blend with the landscape, or do we want, as that person who commented I don't know who it was, do we want something that stands out that's bright and you know, cheery or whatever the comment was. It should blend in. That sounds great a family of colors that sounds great we did that for the spray park down at spray park and the playground down at Groll Park and we I think we chose, we wanted to stay away from like primary colors. We really wanted it to kind of blend in so it's some tans and some browns and I think there may be a some sort of a rust colored roof I can't remember the color of the roof of the of the structure down there but yeah I like that the family why doesn't the group discuss a family of colors and then I could go back out and get the spec sheets for the kiosk of the roof and then next meeting we could kind of compare all of this I think I'll hold on if I can hold on the ordering of the water feature the water fountain will will hold on that until you guys pick the whole suite of colors. I hope that we'd go with the high school colors I was thinking crimson and yeah kind of interesting maroon. Clarification. Yeah, our dogs colorblind. Yes. I should know that shouldn't I. I'm staring at you on the screen. You think they're colorblind I thought they could. I thought they were like, grays blacks. They can see muted colors. Yeah, I'll get back to you on that. They have the apparatus to see some color, I think, you know, but that no one's asked me that in the exam rooms in the last 10 years. Those things kind of just slip your mind. Yeah, I don't think they see the colors we see somebody Google it. Most humans have three. So can discern blue and yellow. There you go. So not that it matters for this purpose. I know buddy might not go if he doesn't like the color palette we're using. So is basically, so basically our decision is, are we trying to contrast and go very bright, or are we trying to blend in and muted and either match the other recreation areas in the town or the landscape itself those are two. Yeah, right. Those are like three options there. Just match blend or bold. Right, just just because he's in here and I promised what Mike's exact quote was, I would simply want colors to be bright and happy. And to agree with with Mike, I think that, you know, that's one of the things that we have a little bit of liberty to do is to make this exciting and bright so I'm on team bright colors for this one. Hi. Yeah, go ahead. So it might be nice to do like a good color scheme where there is like one main bright color and then we so like that can be accents, and then the rest can be blending in. Is the signage going to be colored as well I mean, has that been decided or does that play into this. It plays into that yes we get we'll get to decide that as well. At this point though we should put that on the list, you know, but that's really easy to match. I would, I would offer a roof that is is natural and doesn't require painting, because looking at, you know, chip paint that needs, you know, to be tended to. These are fabric structures of the fabrics. Well, I thought we're talking about the kiosk. Oh, it's probably going to be a metal roof. Yeah, I was saying that one. Yeah, so one of the metal roofs that just, you know is doesn't degrade, you know, in 20 years, because we don't want a very long warranty on metal roofs. They last forever. It looks like you can get the dog water fountain in 18 different colors. Right. So, I sort of came into this thinking just on my own. Oh, you know, we should try and get, you know, the sale color which is going to be the most prominent thing that you say. I mean, it blends in maybe the river gum green or something, but I'm easily swayed and I'm sort of leaning towards something bright and bold. Also, I feel like I live in the neighborhood. And not that that really matters, but I pass by there a lot. And, you know, it's a pretty beautiful natural area, even though it's a dump or was a dump when the grass is in the summer and there's trees around there's a pond over there. And I'm a fan of natural conservation areas that sort of blend in with the environment and don't stick out like a sort of thumb on the landscape. It's very attractive, you know, in its own right. So I think I haven't, I'm not familiar with what went on a graph park but it sounds like they were thinking along those lines, not to have it primary colors and that's a children's playground, their area there isn't it. Yeah, so, you know, I, that's my that's I coming into it with that but I like Dave I could be swayed and if everybody wanted to go bright and whatever. I'm sure it'd be fine, you know, but that was just the way I'm looking at it that if it were either tan the blend in or green the dark green and blend in with the grass and the green roof or, or even in the brown family you could do, you know a brown roof on the kiosk or maroon. Even that is less. I think the primary colors. It looks like a playground a little bit and maybe that's fun and that's what people are saying that they do want to look like a playground. Yeah, Jack. So Ted finally got to my color maroon. I second whoever said you know that the Amherst high colors. You know just keep it simple and maroon is pretty subdued. So which is closest to maroon there the terracotta or the brick red. The brick red because terracotta 10. But I thought it was a nice nod. The brick red, the brick red is the most like the high school I think. And it's not just the high school I mean the town uses that. Yeah. That's unstable so I'm just. I'm sorry.  I think she was telling us that her internet is unstable. What would the good post color be do you think to go with say that brick red thing would that be a coffee brown or. The crimson red. And then how far you want to take the motif of maroon and white. If you wanted to do white posts with the, with the red ish maroon ish sale. But I don't know if I'd put a, I definitely wouldn't put a different red in. Yeah. The white and red would look nice together. I mean, they would and you could there, you could do a maroon roof on the kiosk. And that would, you know, that would look like a town, the town colors right maroon and white. Is that what it is? I haven't looked at this logo recently. Yeah, that's what the high school is anyway. It's the town too. And just the town officially have town colors. I meant more like when they got their masks and. Yeah, yeah. So, so the alpine white. Posts and the brick red roof. The only consideration is those are also you masses colors. So just to keep that in mind as well. If we're okay with that, that's fine. But you mass uses those two. Coincidentally. I mean, I don't know. Well, the white stay white or will it get all scuffed up and marked? I wonder if the latte tan would be a better. I mean, it does say that it's, it's all. Powder coated and durable. I mean, it's going to have some yellow on it. I'm sure. But. I think it's a great idea to come to the dog park or something like that. I think it's a great idea. The large dog, the large area, the large, the extra large area. You know, that is a point that we're going to have two shade structures. And there's no rule that says they have to be the same color. That's true. Just to complicate our lives even more. Maybe why don't we pick one and then decide if we want to make the second one a different color. Yeah. Just, just a thought. Let's, let's pick one for the first structure and then go on. If we, if we do brick red, will people get it that it's really maroon or will they. It's hard to tell from this little square. Yeah. I'm guessing they would supply swatches. You know, the company. Which would be better to choose from, you know, or easier maybe. But even, even if it's different than seeing it there in the field and seeing what it looks like. Yeah. You know, I think brick brick red is the closest to maroon because we wouldn't want that grape purple thing. That would be a mistake. I think too, if you're going to pick two colors, they should be in the same family. So like silver, gray and light blue or. Stormy gray and silver gray. Yeah, I agree. What's in the brick red family. Nothing. Nothing. Yeah. Unless the bamboo brown, you know, right. Yeah. I think we have a lot of elements at play that adding too many colors when we're using a color that it like, I think if we were going to make everything different, we'd have to go with the like that playground look of, you know, bright yellow, bright orange, bright blue. But I think because we're settling for the brick red, I feel like it might look better to have the two structures be the same and then have that like a white or a black, like a contrasting either white or black is kind of where my brain is going for the other, for the posts. Because we also, I mean, we don't know for sure what color roof we can get on the gazebo and we still need to think about the track. So, yeah. So I mean, I think the, what Dave suggests is that we just sort of at least come up with a preliminary preference for a color family, you know, the primary colors versus the colors we're looking at versus the natural escape and what, you know, we'll I guess take a vote at some point, right? Jim to see. Yeah. Yeah. We don't have to choose the actual things now, but we can say we, we've, we're leaning toward the brick red with something we want to see the roof and that might go with it to see how it's all going to look together before we decide, right? Yeah. Are we kind of all in agreement that we're leaning towards the brick red and probably the alpine white for the posts. So we've got our maroon and white theme. Do we, I suppose we could vote that that's the way we're leaning just to make it more official and get it in the minutes. So. I'm not a fan of the white posts. But I'm not convinced a white post. Yeah, I'm not either. I agree.  They get dirty, you know, and. Also, I think bright white posts like that are really going to stand out when you just will come up to the site. You're going to see these big. I don't know how tall they are, but they're going to be pretty tall, aren't they? They're going to be pretty tall. So. I don't know. I think that's a tan might go good with the red. Yeah. So I was thinking that's a tan or the gun, metal gray seemed to me to be the two. Yeah. Yeah. Disappear a little more. Yeah, I think so. Anyone have a strong preference for one of those or for something else? Yeah, I'm willing to check in with Joanna and chip gains as well. I like the gun, metal gray. I prefer that to the, to the tan. I'm not sure everybody got my HGTV. I got it. It was good. Very topical Dave. Well done. Okay. So brick red sales, gun, metal, gray posts. So. I'll make them. I move that we. Vote that are. How do I phrase this? That are. Sensibility at this time is for brick red sales and gun, metal, gray posts. To be confirmed for sure. Later date has that sound. Yeah. That would give us flexibility also like. Like the roof could match the gray. Yeah. Potentially. We don't have to have everything that. You know, match exactly. The gray is an easy thing too. You know, it's a good roof color. So Jim, that was, that was brick red sales. And what was the, what were the posts? Gun, metal, gray posts. Marooning gray is kind of a classic combo, isn't it? Yeah. My college colors. Very good. You can also get the water fountain in the river rock granite or quick silver. If you want gray or they have firehouse red, but that looks like it might be really red. That's gonna be really red. Yeah. The gray might look nice with the stones and everything, you know, there's going to be a lot of gravel. Very gravel. So if we, if we carry these over to next meeting and we have more cut sheets and whatnot for the other ones, you guys could make. You know, you could kind of make a decision on the whole suite of, of colors for each one of these. Sure. So why don't we actually, why don't we skip the vote, but just put it in the minutes that the, the sort of consensus of everybody is for brick red sales and gun, middle, gray posts at this point in time. But we don't need to officially vote on it because an official vote on something that's not official is sort of silly. Okay. That was fun though. Yeah. Yeah. And this is not to open a can of worms and I'm sorry if I'm doing it. How come we get to make this decision and it doesn't have to go to design review board. Hmm. Good question. Possibly we propose it and design review review board would have to approve it. I don't know. Yeah, I will check on that. The project already got. Approval from. But we, it's been a long time. So we might have said, oh, when we get the color. Scheme, we will come back to you. So that's a good question. Remember, I just, I knew that they, they had questions specifically about our signage when we went before them. And so. Yeah. It would be whether we're, whether we legally have to or not, it's a great idea to do.  So. But yeah, you know, if we were going with canary yellow sales and teal posts, they might actually have an objective. Okay. That's a good question though. I will check in with the staff to the DRB. Okay. No, that was thanks for bringing that up on it. That was actually good. No problem. So the, I think the last thing to talk about is the friends group. And what do we want to do in terms of timing and organizing. And I, in my mind, I think we've discussed this in my mind, I think we've discussed the steps that have to happen. You know, first of all, the theory is. While the dog park is being designed and construction. And constructed, we've got this thing called the dog park task force. But at the point in time or around the point in time when the dog park actually exists, there'd be kind of a handoff that task force would. Disolve, you know, retreat into the sunset and this friends group would take over the. You know, the responsibility of, you know, keeping track of things and maintenance and fundraising when needed and things like that. And I know our concept was. That the kickoff would be sort of. A big publicity event to try and get a critical mass of people to come to a meeting, whether it's a virtual or real, whatever it is where we would have facilitators and I know both of them are willing to be involved in this. To work with this group of people. To determine exactly what the friends group will be what it's bylaws will look like what its responsibilities will be. So the big question is what's the best timing to do this. And I know personally I've always felt that. You sort of want to have a clear vision of what the dog park is going to look like and when it's going to be done.  So as it's nearing completion, we're building this group so that the group is ready when the dog park is completed. You know, we now see this delay where they're going to hopefully pick things up and get going again in the spring, but even that's not a hundred percent sure whether related. So. We're again dealing with this question of, is it too soon. And should we wait until the spring to do it? Or should we do it now? And I'll open that up to discussion. Hygiene, by the way. Kind of curious. Oh, go ahead, Jack. Sorry. Who was talking? I'm sorry. That was Brenda, but go ahead. Okay. Okay. Well, just. Jim, you know, I presented to you this option. For this 501 C three. So we can get through the Pioneer Valley regional ventures center. So we can have this charitable kind of. Entity. They could funnel donations and it would be. Have the tax benefits. And, you know, similar to what we asked for Kestrel. But I'm not a hundred percent sure. Because they haven't got back to me. Yeah. But I see that as a minor aspect of it, you know, how people donate money, the mechanics of it. Sure, it's important to want to do something. The tax benefits are pretty sketchy questionable anyway. Yeah. Yeah. So, so I see that as a secondary issue. And the primary issue is just. The timing of organizing this group. You know, what, what will work best. So it seems like with what you've said about the, them starting up in the spring. So realistically, if they can start by May, let's say, by the time things dry out, April or May. And they have a month or two to do the grading and construction. So June, July. Realistically, we're not going to be getting close to. Completion before August, Dave, would that be like the earliest that you could see it opening? I actually think they can get started on the work earlier. I mean, it is weather dependent, but. All of the 90% of the material is already. They call it screened and is, is ready to go on site. So. I think it's going to go pretty quickly from there. Really. It's the fence is the water lines. Yeah. Yeah. There's not a lot of moving parts to this thing. I think the real issue to add to your question is. When are we open? When are we ready to open relative to the grass being ready to receive visitors? I think that's always, we've talked about that in the past. That's always the, the challenge. Yeah. We're going to, I think open, but fence off the grassed areas and just use the gravel is kind of like a soft opening. Enough to get people on site, see the kiosk, see what's there and get excited and. You know, have enough impetus to get a friends group going, but I agree with Jim that. You know, trying to raise a friends group now. Doesn't make a lot of sense because there's nothing there. You know, there's nothing there. There's nothing there. There's nothing there really to speak of. It's all virtual also. There's a lot of unknowns, but it's possible by June. Mostly everybody may be vaccinated.  That's going to change everything, you know, in terms of the success and drawing people in to get. You know, become affiliated with a organization again, but it's not that much fun, right? So. I think waiting bill is further underway. And whether that's. You know, May, April, May, June, that seems like a timeframe to go out. When things are really happening. And I think the key thing. And again, when you talk, if you're going to talk to Barry. I think if we build that kiosk, you know, get the concrete in there and build the kiosk. You know, you know, you know, if we build it early on versus later, that's going to help a lot with fundraising. Because that's where we're going to be putting, you know, People's names and stuff. And if, if that's. Under construction or built earlier rather than later. I think it will help with, you know, building excitement for to donate and become involved with the dog park. Versus just a lot of dirt that's pushed around and some fencing. So we could talk to him about when he thinks he can get in in the spring and build the kiosk. Yeah, a lot of that it's. It's more having to do with the contractor, I think, than, than Barry, because all of that is going to be built around the parking and the sidewalk there. So I think I can talk to Jason Skeal, the town engineer. About how that's all coordinated, but it's, yeah, it's going to be a. Orchestrated between, you know, again, which comes first, the kiosk or the, or the bituminous pavement. Do you pave and do. I forgot the sleeves and then typically you do the bathing. You leave a sleeve or your core. And then you put in the, the post for the kiosk, but I don't know enough about this design. I don't know if we know how this one, it's going to be in concrete actually. So it's outside the paving. It's in the part of the concrete, poured concrete, the foundation. As I recall, and it's part of the entrance concrete. And I had her hand up a little while ago. So. So I had actually drafted out a proposed timeline for this in addition to the mission statement for the friends group. That I'd be happy to share if folks are interested in seeing it. I think that's a good idea. Yeah. Are you doing that on a, can I add one thing that. We are really, we are really going to be pressing to get. Going on site as early as possible because. The more we can get done before the grasshoppers, pero season. Is upon us again, the better because. You know, we don't want to be shut down by the natural heritage program. So we've got to get the site. The big things, you know, we've got to get the site all integrated. We've got to get the fence up. We've got to get the bulk of the construction done in, you know, the interior construction done before the grasshoppers, pero season. If we're working out near the street, we're going to kind of. Build our way back out. I would imagine the. Any of the concrete work, any of the bituminous pavement work, that would be last. And as long as we're working out on the street. I think that'll be fine, but I just wanted to throw that out here. I think we really need to rock in the spring to get done as much as weekend before the sparrow season. So we're looking down at the bottom of this document, which I think you all should still have access to. And I just adjusted it as you were talking to reflect, maybe not really moving until. You know, it's mostly done with, we're mostly done with construction, but I thought this might be helpful in terms of thinking through the different steps that we may need to take. So starting now through June or whenever we decide to, to kind of. Kickstart the process. We would be finalizing the working mission and goals for the friends of groups start to think about, you know, crafting the, the initial emails to reach out. We talked about reaching out to folks who had applied to be on the task force. We talked about reaching out to the folks on our mailing list. And then in the summer of 2021. We would solicit self nominations for members. We would ideally, if it's possible, post this on the town website posted on our website, but then also do some press releases in the Amherst, Indy and the Gazette. And, and then potentially at local, I'll add in some, you know, local businesses like valley vet and et cetera. And then also in July that, that's when we would start to collect those names and select this first, I guess, cohort of, of members. And then they will, we'll, that's when that turnover will start to happen. They will elect their initial executive board. Brenda and I would get to work in August and September with the support of the rest of the task force to work on the strategic planning process and development bylaws. And then we'd officially turn it over to them in September. So this can be pushed forward and back. The time crunches right now. The one that feels a little long for me is the first one, but it's just, but if we want to wait till construction's done, then that's, that's fine. The one that feels short to me is the timing of the strategic planning process. That is an extremely short time to conduct a strategic planning process with a volunteer board.  So happy to hear, hear thoughts on it. So if I could just jump in, I think, you know, in South Hadley, they just opened their dog park recently and Jeff Squires is hosting that friends group. So it might be useful to bring him in and have a conversation with them. I was thinking. And how I checked that out in his, it's actually registered to his house, which probably isn't a good idea. So, but it might be a useful conversation to have with Jeff just to see, you know, what some lessons learned might be. I agree with you, Anna, a strategic planning process is not possible in that short amount of time. But if we have a mission and a vision, then we can at least do a little bit of a, you know, because of the first year is really building support among the community. But it may be that we may be able to push off a full strategic planning process until a little later. Because it will take a little time for the organization to gel. Yeah. And it may be that they, we don't necessarily need to be the folks responsible for that either. You know, as they get started, they may want to do it on their own as their own process. Yeah. And the bylaws are pretty standard. We can go from other friends groups. So I think, you know, there'll be some things that would want to work with the town on just to make sure we've got them right for Amherst. But, you know, it's not something that we have to develop on our own. We can really build on what's been done previously, but great timeline, Anna. Yeah, really good. Anna, thank you. You should change Hadley to South Hadley though. Oh, sorry. I thought it was happening. Yeah. Thank you. All right, great. Maybe if you could send that portion to an email to folks to the task force group. Yeah, sure. I'm happy to send the whole doc again, but you just want the timeline. Send the whole doc again. Okay, great. Make sure it has a date on it so we know it's the latest version. It's always the latest version when it's a Google doc gym. Okay. So is there anything else we need to do now. Regarding friends group. Or is it kind of on hold to look at again at our next meeting and. See what has to happen. Well, one of the things we could do was to just gather some missions. From some other friends groups. That might be helpful. You know, because in terms of dogs, friends groups, I think we probably have a probably finite number. And mine are barking outside right now. But, you know, I think we could probably gather and edit from others. And that might be really helpful and kind of shave some time, but it's nice to start from something rather than have to craft it. So at the last meeting, that is, that is what I did in drafting out the first one. So I will try to find the links that I. Used in the, in creating that draft mission. And I'll put them in the doc as well. So folks can, can look there too. Good. Thanks, Anna. Okay. So, um, So maybe at the next meeting, we can discuss that mission, you know, as one of the focus things to kind of decide and start beginning to discuss that mission, because that will kind of move us along. Don't you think. Yes. I'm looking, I'm looking for a link to the Google doc. I'll send it again. Oh, good. I'm sure I have it somewhere. Yeah, I just want to get that in front of me again. So I can see, is there anything else we need to do now? Or basically are we all set till our next meeting? I mean, it might be nice now to kind of divvy up how we're, how we're doing the, um, the outreach. If there are folks who want to reach out to the folks from South Hadley, um, folks who want to start to add to the document from other areas. Um, Maybe helpful just to kind of. Not a sign, but, um, have just make sure we're all clear on what would be helpful to do before the next meeting. Uh-huh. And we can all do it. It's just, yeah. No, it would be better if it was a little better coordinated.  Here we go. Thank you. Just got two at once. Brenda, did you say you had contact with the person from South Hadley? Would you be interested in reaching out to them? Oh, sure. Our kids were on climbing teams together. Oh, cute. I love it. So then for other folks, I'll add a page at the bottom of the doc where we can start to collect mission statements from other friends of groups. Um, and then we'll just note if they are. Like what the group is so that, you know, the ones that are dog parks. Um, Might be more relevant. Or more helpful. Good. That sounds good. Okay. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. So anything else that we want people to sort of volunteer to do at this point, or should we just figure out what our next meeting date is and. Go from there, which sounds like it. Shouldn't shouldn't be too long. Maybe. I don't know if we need a meeting in January or February is enough. And the question there kind of for Dave is when do we need. You know, I don't know. I don't know. I check with the town engineer on that gym and then we, you and I can communicate and then you could do a doodle Paul. It might be third week of January, something like that. Uh-huh. Um, And, you know, that way. We kind of. Link in with him. I, I, you know, if need be, I might even ask him to attend the next meeting and, you know, if there are any questions for him. You know, people could ask him directly. And for sure. If you get information on bench choices and colors, you can send them out so people can have them in advance, just like you did with the sales. Mm-hmm. Okay. So I think. So everyone should now have the link if they didn't have it before to. On this document. And I think we can be all done for now. I copied you on the email to Jeff. Okay, thank you. Good. Anybody else have any. So we're not going to set a next meeting date. I'll send a doodle poll once I hear from Dave and, you know, my guess it'll be either towards the end of January or sometime in February, one of those two. Not sure which anybody else have anything or we think we're all done. I think we're all done. All those in favor. First of all, thanks for coming. It's nice to see you all. It's been a while for a lot of you. But, um, and you know, my only message to everybody is hang in there and we'll get through this and get it done. Park eventually. Exciting to see some changes there though. Yeah. Yeah. Hey, Jim, if I could, you know, there's a lot of parallels between this project and the, the golf park, you know, the BMC project and the golf club. And also the golf course. I don't know if you've heard of it, but I've heard that. It was great park in playground, but I will tell you when we opened that place, it was, it was cranking people, you know, people are using it today. I mean, It's pretty amazing and exciting and inspiring when you, when you actually open these things that you worked so many years on. So we're going to get there. Um, it just these. And people are going to love it. No doubt about it. Awesome. No one saw the pandemic coming, right? Yeah. We're going to blame it on that. Okay.  And if it looks unanimous, I think we're good. And it looks unanimous. So I think we are adjourned. Thank you, everybody. Thank you. Thank you. Happy holidays, everyone. Yes.


Hi, I'm Jay Fidel, it's 12 noon on Monday and here we go, and we're going to do, we're going to do Meena Marko and me, except it's Marko and me this time and it's about energy in Hawaii. And Marko, welcome back to the show. Ho ho ho, and happy aloha Monday to you, good friend Jay Fidel, thank you for having me on. Absolutely, always. Marko, we learned so much. So let's talk about the hot news you mentioned just before the show began about Sun Run. It's very interesting on a number of levels. What happened? Well, there was a piece in the Wall Street Journal today, that bastion of business reporting owned by our friend Rupert Murdoch and Fox. And the news was that there were several former Sun Run employees, including managers, who have now gone on the record stating that they believe they felt that they were under pressure by their superiors to not report in a timely fashion, to not report cancellations of sales in the lead up to Sun Run doing an initial purchase offering in IPO in the middle of 2015. And the reporter cites, like I said, a couple or three managers, including the manager of their Hawaii operations over from February 2015 to February 2017, they quote him on the record in the Wall Street Journal piece, saying that he felt that he was asked essentially to hold off on reporting this essentially bad news about customers who had signed up previously to go with Sun Run, but who backed out in an effort to try to boost the IPO price when Sun Run went public. The fellow quoted in the Wall Street Journalist Darren Jennings, Darren Jennings who says he was the regional sales manager in Hawaii, as I mentioned from February 2015 until February 2017. That's against the law, isn't it? Well, you're the attorney here, my friend, so you're more in a position, I think, to make a judgment on that. Oh, so it sounds like a material misrepresentation, you know, with due expectation that the public will rely on that misrepresentation and, oh gee, that's, if it's not criminal, that's certainly civil and not good for Sun Run.  Now look what happened to Volkswagen, gee, that really hurt Volkswagen, it still is hurting Volkswagen. And now Sun Run, we have dishonesty in Sun Run. Not so good for Sun Run and not so good for the solar energy industry and not so good for energy as a matter of fact. You don't need scandals like this. Well, according to Lynn Jurich, who's the longtime Sun Run CEO and co-founder, she said in a statement according to this piece, while not directly addressing the question of whether employees delayed reporting consumer cancellations, but said the company had, quote, reviewed the digital audit trail in our systems and turned up no evidence that our sales employees changed cancellation dates in our systems to delay the reporting of cancellations. I proudly stand by Sun Run's workplace culture, our values and our unwavering commitment to customer satisfaction and the principle of integrity upon which our company was founded. Well, it's not exactly black and white, is it? Well, I tell you what is black and white, Jay, is that the solar finance companies have been noteworthy over the years for losing a tremendous amount of money. It's a business model that I think certainly in the near term has proven by the demonstrable data has proven to be rather spectacularly unprofitable. And last year, while Sun Run had a peak year in terms of gross revenue, they also had a peak year in terms of losses. And according to their 10K filing with the SEC, they lost more than 300 million with an M, 300 million dollars. So it kind of has led me to wonder whether there's something they know that we don't know or perhaps, you know, are they the next example of the Jeff Bezos Amazon model? Well, you know, I looked into Amazon a bit for the class I'm teaching, my energy politics class at the University of California, Santa Cruz. And Bezos started Amazon in 1994, 1994, way before the digital marketplace became the monster than it is now, right? And for 15 years, Bezos lost money each and every year, Amazon lost money. And since now, eight years past 2009, 15 years after 1994, Amazon has become profitable. So are these sort of finance companies perhaps going down, optimistically going down a similar direction where they lose money, lose money, lose money year after year. But then at some point, they do a crossover from the red to the black and they start making money. I don't know. One of the biggest companies around with a global footprint, company that I was well familiar with when they started way, way back when was Sun Edison and Sun Edison, of course, failed spectacularly last year imploded as well as a number of other sort of finance companies have gone similar direction. So it's just kind of a mystery to me how you can, how a company, how a business model can continue to lose such dramatic and accelerating amounts of money and yet still continue doing what they do. I just, I don't have an answer to that. I've talked to a number of my colleagues over the years and there's a fair amount of head scratching going on, but what's clear is that there is, has been up until now substantial financial backing from, from institutions and from the usual sources of hundreds of millions of dollars of funding, you know, you can't continue to lose money unless you have new money coming in, right? Unless you're printing it yourself, of course, at the federal expense. I would draw a big distinction between, you know, Sun Run and Sun Edison and, and Amazon.  So there's a long way to go and if I were an investor and Amazon came to me even though it was losing money, I would, I would invest on the prospect of what's going to happen in the future, you know, exploring that market and expanding into new markets and, you know, developing new technology that makes it faster and more efficient and cheaper to operate. But in the case of, in the case of solar, the solar cells are what they are. You know, the equipment around them is pretty much stable, I think. You can talk more about that. There's no, you know, dramatic new technology in the pipeline, really. There's no dramatic new market to expand into. And, you know, the Chinese are expanding into it, but I don't know if we have the market. All the low-hanging fruit has been, or much of it has been taken. So if I were an investor and they came to me and said, you know, we're losing money, but, you know, look at the prospects, I would say what prospects? And therefore, you know, it suggests to me that we ought to discuss what is wrong with the model. The model, you know, essentially is flawed because it doesn't, it's not profitable. But what can be done to improve the model to make it profitable? Or is this whole thing, you know, going to implode? Not just one or two companies, but everything. Indeed, you know, the solar and solar companies here in Hawaii haven't done well either. And you can't say that it's the fault of the government. You can say that with the government they did better. But right now, the business model here seems to be flawed also. Comments? Well, of course, as you know, I have a very vested interest in the solar industry here, being an owner of a solar company here on the Big Island, a portable tech design installation engineering company. And I'm not sharing any great pearls of wisdom when I say that any company needs a certain amount of volume to pay expenses, a certain amount of volume in terms of revenue, right? And as well, not just revenue, but profitability, that you're making something more than what you're putting out in terms of expenses. And the contractors who have largely focused not on solar PPAs, power purchase agreements with solar leasing, those who are selling essentially cash systems or systems where the homeowners financing themselves, I think most of us have been relatively healthy, but up until now. But the big but is that, as I mentioned, that requires a certain volume, a certain revenue. And if you look at the PV permit numbers, which I crunch on a regular basis, I mean the numbers are so far this year, first four or five months of this year, have taken a very steep dive compared to the previous period last year. And last year was a steep dive the worst year in terms of the PV industry, compared to the previous five or six years. So there's a fair amount of pain going on there. I'm feeling it. My colleagues are feeling it. And the big question mark is what kind of revenue, what kind of demand for our products and our systems can we reasonably expect in the months to come? And with all the kind of bubbling uncertainty in the regulatory side as far as these various dockets before our commission, such as the Distributed Energy Resources docket or DER docket, what's coming after NEM? I mean, that energy metering was done away with October of 2015, although it's died a long and long and long and long lingering debt that a lot of us are still installing NEM systems. But that's going to end sooner rather than later. So what is it that we can offer in terms of interconnect agreements and in terms of value for this new frontier where it's battery storage, battery storage, battery storage, and there's just on the 17 years I've been doing this here to say there's, I think, more turbulence now in the air and needing to buckle one seat belt tight and not get bonked around is greater than ever. Well, it strikes me that in what you say is a call for the industry to reinvent itself, not necessarily with pushing legislation through, although that could help next year to expand the battery storage tax credit. But some other creative, innovative twists on how to do solar, how to install solar, how to maintain, how to finance solar, how to find new technology to make it better. So maybe the solar installer industry has to reinvent itself. I'd be interested in your thoughts about what it could do, what you could do, what you might think about doing in order to do that. Well, there are a number of companies across the state that have been looking to and actually have been diversifying into other fields, including doing PVAC, where you have photovoltaic system, a small PV system that is powering a DC-driven compressor, AC compressor, and a system like that does not need utility approval because it doesn't interact with the utility power at all. There's energy efficiency that can be part of a product lineup, doing energy audits for people's homes, showing them where they can save energy by changing out light bulbs for getting new appliances and so forth. So there's no shortage of creative other means to try to generate revenue, Jay. What is of concern is that all these other avenues, they're rather moneney, are rather small in terms of the revenue stream per sales transaction compared to selling 20, 50, $100,000 or more photovoltaic systems. So that's where it's a real challenge as a business owner is to, you know, I have to decide what's worth the my time, what's worth the time and energy of my staff in terms of ancillary products other than our bread and butter photovoltaic system design and installation. Yeah. Well, we're 17 years of experience, Marco, and you've seen the landscape evolve and change kaleidoscopically over those years. You've followed it closely. You've crunched the numbers and so forth. But I'd like to give you a hypothetical. I walk into your office and I'm young fella in my 20s millennial. I have some capital. Maybe my father gave me capital or I had some capital from some source and I want to get into business and I ask you straight up, Marco, should I get into the solar installer business? Yes or no? Oh, boy. Don't answer that question, Marco. We're going to take a break and I'll give you one minute to think about your answer. Tick, tick, tick, tick, tick. And then we'll be right back. That's Marco Mangelsorf here on Mina, Marco and me. We'll be right back. Match day is no ordinary day. The pitch hallowed ground for players and supporters alike. Excitement builds. Game plans are made with responsibility in mind. Celebrations are underway. Ready for kickoff. MLS clubs and our supporters rise to the challenge. We make responsible decisions while we cheer on our heroes and toast their success. Elevate your match day experience. If you drink, never drive. Back we're live. I'm Jay Fidel. This is me and Marco and me on Energy on Monday. And we left the cliffhanger. Young fella walks into Marco's office, wants to talk to the guru, wants to know whether he should get into the business at this point in time. Marco, what's your answer? Well, I think selfishly I would say no, because I just assumed there would not be any more competition than I'm already dealing with. But on a less selfish basis, I think I would also have to say that it's not particularly blossoming or optimistic time right now to be in this line of business, which as I've written about over the past month a number of times, and runs counter to the overall macro global trends and what's going on in the US mainland of PV reaching multiple new gigawatt records in terms of deployment over the previous calendar year. So Hawaii is not, I think, a really booming market right now, any of the islands in particular. So I guess the answer would be to the young Jay Fidel who were to walk in to my office asking that question. I would have to say I would probably dissuade them from taking that leap. Yeah. Maybe there's another time coming soon. Maybe there'll be some disruptive technology either in or around the panels themselves. Maybe that would change things and make it more profitable. But let's go to the next point in our agenda, Marco. There was a remarkable thing that happened on Friday, just Friday, I think. And that was the appointment of a missing PUC commissioner. What happened? Well, just to take people back a couple of weeks, Tom Gorak was acting as interim PUC commissioner, going back from what July 1 of last year up until April 30, or excuse me, May 5, I believe, of this year when the legislative session ended in Honolulu. Tom Gorak, being an interim appointee, he was rejected as fulfilling the rest of that particular term on the commission. They're typically six-year terms, if I'm not mistaken. He was rejected by a majority vote in the Senate. So he lost his job. And the governor spent a little bit of time looking at other candidates. And he announced on Friday that he was nominating Jay, also known as James, but to his friends Jay Griffin, to that appointment. And I think very, very highly of Jay. I think he's a real, real sharp guy, real good guy. And I was expecting the likelihood of the governor choosing one or more attorneys there in Honolulu who was steeped somewhat in regulatory matters. And as far as I'm concerned, he went out of the box on this one. David E. Gay did, and he went out of the park to kind of mix my metaphors a bit with the appointment. Out of the box, out of the park, what have you. Well, what is Jay Griffin's background? He was with the PUC, and he's with Hawaii Natural Energy Institute too. So where does he come from? What's his training experience? Well, he was with HNEI for I'm not sure how long. And he's now with HNEI until he actually takes the oath of his position, which hasn't taken place yet, but will happen, I believe, within the next couple of weeks or so. That said, he was on loan, if I'm not mistaken, from HNEI, the Hawaii Natural Energy Institute, to the commission over the course of the next year HCI acquisition hearings. Because I remember seeing Jay there, Jay Griffin, day in, day out, even though I wasn't there day in, day out. For those 22 days of hearings there at the Blaisdell. So he was hired by the commission to do, well, short-term stint there in terms of evading the commission in the process of evaluating whether it was in the public interest to approve that proposed acquisition after the merger was turned down without prejudice by the commission, by a vote of two to nothing with Randy Iwasse and Lorena Kiva voting against, and Gorak abstaining. He went back to HNEI. He has a PhD, so I feel some affinity and sympathy for anybody who's done that grind, having done one myself a number of years ago. I don't know the exact field, but he knows the regulatory field inside and out. I believe that he is a strong supporter of the governor's goals of greater and greater energy independence over the years and decades. So I think he just represents a very good choice, and hopefully will bring a new energy and dynamism to a commission with Randy and Lorraine. Yeah, it sounds like a shot in the arm, actually. Do we know how he feels about LNG? Do we know how he feels about the technology? HNEI is all about technology. Any information on that level? Dad, I do not know. Dad, I do not know. I just know what I do know about his support of renewable energy, which, of course, is almost universal in this state. And we'll just have to see how things play out. It will also be interesting whether there are a number of hot tending topics and issues that weren't completed or really satisfied when the legislature ended their term earlier this month. I mean, rail is one of them. Is it conceivable that there would be a special session of the House and the Senate to come back into session in order to address the issues that did not get, perhaps, resolved adequately? And again, I'm not a specialist in terms of Senate rules or the procedure, but is it conceivable that they could come back into session and rather than have someone like Jay Griffin be an interim, just discuss whether the consumer protection consumer health was a health and consumer protection committee under the Senate and under Senator Roslyn Baker, whether that's something that they would take up, the nomination of Jay Griffin to be PUC Commissioner sooner rather than later. And that's, again, that I have no inside information on that. But that's something that certainly comes to my mind. Yeah, I mean, it comes to my mind, too, that if they're going to have a special session, this is one confirmation they could actually handle. I believe with you in short order, because he is generally held in high regard, he probably will be confirmed. There's nobody speaking against him, at least not yet. And for that reason, if they put it to a vote, he'd probably get confirmed right away, so it wouldn't take a lot of time. But the question is, we know what, A, whether there will be a special session, because right now that's very iffy. And B, if there is a special session, whether it will be focused on the specific needs for the special session, and that probably would be tax and rail. But the other thing is that we know it's not critical that he could confirm right now. It could wait. It could wait till the regular session in 2018, just as it waited for Tom Gorak. The irony is that Gorak was awaiting confirmation he didn't get. And in this case, we have the same thing a year later. A guy appointed outside the regular session who probably will have to wait until next year to get confirmed. Does that affect the operation of the PUC? Well, it's important to note that whether you are a, I mean, there's no such thing, of course, as a permanent commissioner. But whether you're there with a full term ahead of you, however many years are left from that term, that six-year term, or whether you're so-called interim, it doesn't affect your status as a commissioner.  So there's not kind of pending or junior or probationary commissioner status. I mean, once Jay Griffin is sworn in, I mean, he joins Mr. Oase and Ms. Akeba on the same level. So it doesn't matter, I guess, practically speaking, for the next months to come, whether he has an interim in his title or not, but I guess, I mean, if I were him, I think, or anybody who were nominated, I'd rather get that interim part off of my title or off of my subject line sooner rather than later. I mean, that only makes sense. But let me ask this, Marco, you got Randy Oase, a lawyer, a legislator, been around the block in politics, Lorraine Akeba, a lawyer, and to some extent been around the block in politics. But neither of them, prior to coming with the PUC, were specialists, experts in energy. And they both learned, you know, like when they got appointed. But Jay Griffin is a different kettle of fish altogether. He's steeped in it, as you said, he has a PhD in energy policy. He's been with the, you know, with core organizations dealing with energy policy for some time, and he's presumably totally familiar with energy policy and with energy technology at HNEI, and that's a completely different orientation. And it suggests that the makeup of this three-person PUC commission will change, that the weight of it will change more, if you know, assuming they all have a voice, more toward, you know, policy considerations. I mean, long-term policy considerations, such as you have at HNEI, and technology such as you have at HNEI. He's a different kettle of fish. And it will be, I suggest to you, that it will be a different kettle of fish with him on board. Do you think so? I do, Jay, and I really hope that's the case, because Mike Champley brought a lot to the table, I thought. Mike was from the energy industry, but more on the utility side. So, and in previous commissioners, you know, there's Carl Caliboso, John Cole. I'm trying to think, going back over time, was, has there been anybody who has the kind of cred and the bona fides in terms of, I know, a very deep and broad knowledge of energy issues prior to Jay Griffin? And I think he may be new in that regard, or our new type of commissioner that comes with that kind of really deep portfolio. So, I can only hope that that's something that will make a, and I expect it to make a positive difference as the commission wades through so very, very much on its plate. Well, Marco, I agree with you. It was a good appointment by David E. Gay. This one should get some real traction, and it should be beneficial to the commission and therefore to the energy community. And I'm happy that it happened, and I suggest, I surmise that you are too. So, let's be optimistic about this one, eh? Yes, and let's reach out to Jay sooner rather than later so we can get Jay Jay, Jay Jay and Marco for Joe, eh? There you go. Jay Jay and Marco. Well, thank you, Marco. It's been great. It always is great to talk to you on energy on Mondays, and I will look forward to talking with you again two weeks from now, and hopefully me and Amirita can also join us then. Thank you so much, Marco. Always my great pleasure. Mahalo nui, my friend. Aloha.