I don't know what's happening we have a storm going on here and I have two internet connections and both of them are not moving at the speed that I want them to. I hope they both do well. I've got one that's my backup in case the hardwire fails that goes to Wi-Fi. We'll see. We'll see. What's funny though the one that's that I'm plugged into now the the download rate is slower than normal but the upload is through the roof so we'll see. I've got my eye on the stream connection condition and so hopefully it'll go well and so speaking of seeing something behind the scenes one of my favorite night I've even done a video entitled my favorite Pentecostal preacher and guess what he still is even after what I'm going to get on today he is still my favorite Pentecostal preacher. I think he's my favorite Pentecostal preacher. I love him. I think I think he's good. I think he's good and the reason why I don't you know you can say something or do something or feel a certain way whatever you just don't throw him totally out because we all have that we all are wrong about something and the reason why I'm covering this is for two reasons one someone sent it to me but two I think it's a good teaching moment because it shows something and it addresses a point that I've been trying to make in terms of how we read the scriptures and I think he his error illustrates a flaw in the way we read scriptures sometimes. As a matter of fact what it also highlights is sometimes having a preference of which translation you want to have that may also be a problem. Someone asked before do I do I think it's good to have different translations King James, ESV, yes I think it is. As a matter of fact I think it's also good if you instead of that just getting a parallel Bible or if you just pick up your phone often times there's you can just have various translations at your fingertips so you can just see if you're studying a particular text you can see how that text is said in the English in the King James and obviously King James King James verses are the same ESV and ESV and IV and so forth you kind of see the difference between the King James the NASB the ESV and so forth verses the say NIV you have what's called word-for-word translations where you are trying to as best they can and by the way you cannot there's no such thing as an actual true word-for-word translation this word going easily into this word the Greek word being translated perfectly into the English or the Hebrew being translated perfectly into the English there that's no such thing okay but for lack of a better way of putting it that's what we mean whereas the NIV is what we call a thought-for-thought we are trying to capture what the thought of the writer is what the message is so to speak the problem with both is neither are totally sufficient why is that because when you listen to me or I listen to you or you listen to anyone else you get the the words and the thought behind the conversation which is why if I wrote what someone said down and then someone read it they can read it out of context there might be a voice inflection if I say well what do you mean well what do you mean well one I asked kind of in an accusatory tone almost sarcastic what do you mean verses what do you mean why legitimately want to know what you mean are you with me and so sometimes the words are not enough you want to convey the thought and sometimes neither of those enough if you're trying to read into a passage if you think it's trying to say something and it's not are you with me so that being stated again if I've never said it before if I have never said before and I have I just like Bishop Wooden now he is in the Church of God and Christ and I've got a lot of friends who in Church of God and Christ and so I have no problems with church at Christ at all matter of fact our dear brother Walter Jones who is what I call the worst Church of God and Christ member in the history of coaching love them dearly has sound doctrine and so I have no problems with the other denomination I mean obviously there's some things I disagree with so what you know what it's like though there's just some things that we just disagree I'm gonna ask you if you have but it's like walking in on your parents you know stuff happens back there that you don't want to see you don't want to see it it's back there you want to keep it out of sight out of mind and if you happen to go in and see like oh that's why I didn't want to go behind closed doors anyway and so sometimes sometimes I know you are at least I know you took your guy crisis sometimes they may say something it's like okay all right but I still love them matter of fact can I tell you why I love him let me give you some of him preaching and you can see why I love him and you love him too and and and the real which the Lord God had taken from the man he made the prettiest thing I ever seen can I get a man from the man praise the Lord so God brother if you don't agree with me something wrong with you that's right if you don't if you're a man and you disagree what he just said something wrong with you he made the prettiest thing ever a man love him to death other statements that he's made now all this is all in this same this same sermon that he's given so from the presence of the law and I noticed this a low place and verse 10 says and and and God called Adam and he said Adam answered him and said I heard I heard the voice in the garden and I was afraid because I was naked and I hid myself and he said God said to him who told me that thou wasst afraid and has thou eaten of the tree wherefore I commanded me that thou should not eat and notice how it's constructed here a low place and the man said Adam Adam must have been woke because you know woke theology makes you blame everybody else the woke crowd teaches black folk that we're victims and if you're struggling you are you're struggling like you're struggling because of white people white people are holding you down so it's easy that's why I just I just love him I don't say my mom is in here sorry about that sorry Mrs. Dutch Dutch I hope I didn't I didn't trigger any kind of members I apologize if I did I'm sorry I forgive us Lord God forgive us please but those those are kind of things that see he's gonna keep it real he is not one of these men that that has been moved because of the current culture he just he just isn't he tells it like it is he's straight and I for the most part I like his I like his his doctrine I really do but again it's such a kind of crisis but there's gonna be some things that I do disagree yeah too legit to quit he is he listen he's straight on matter of fact if y'all go and check out I happen to see it today I think today him talking about the whole Memphis police shooting and so forth and he just hey listen he lays he lays it out he just and it used to be though he's the kind of person that all he's really saying is what we all would have said 20 years ago 30 40 50 years ago he's just saying the same thing profound words today are really just what was just normal casual common sensical statements back in the day when we were younger it really is work hard don't blame others and so forth and so this is why people gravitate to him this is why people gravitate to other folks who just say certain things like yeah I can rock with that now to be told though it's also why some people also gravitate toward oh why some people gravitate towards even people who have horrible doctor because they'll say things like wait a second yeah you said that right you you spoke about men sagging about women this that and yeah but then you talked about all this other stuff and so in the end we still have to be discerning enough to look at the scriptures now he gets in the message was wonderful message by the way the message is actually about male and female and that how God created male and female and that in men and women are distinct they're different and they serve a purpose in God's community that was his whole point but then he goes off a little bit towards the end and he makes a statement about Adam and it's on that that I want to deal with because first of all it's important I'm gonna tell you why this even though somebody said well what's the harm I'll tell you what the harm is in just a little bit first first and foremost because it's for God and so we want to make sure that we deal with everything every single word every letter that's there we want to give it the the attention that that's due amen and so he started to talk about Genesis 1 28 so let's listen to him Genesis 1 and 28 says and God bless them mankind and God said unto them be fruitful and multiply and replenish the earth replenish so there's ample archaeological evidence that shows that Adam was not the first man on the planet see now there are they're not lying when they talk about chromagnoman and all that there's evidence but humans Adam wasn't none of them God made me and I'm a bit confused because what does it mean because the people that were there before even chromagnoman even listen to what they explained it the evolutionist that's the human being now before we go forward I want to go to this particular passage and then we'll jump back into some more of his video but let's put on the screen verse 28 of Genesis 1 and we've got two verses up we've got the NASB and we all also have the King James version says God bless them and God said of them be fruitful and multiply and feel the earth and subdue it and rule over it roll over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky now let's go over to the king to the King James version he says and God bless them and God said unto them be fruitful multiply and replenish the earth and subdue it well therein lies the problem the word replenish the word replenish because it's replenish the the actual definition does mean to feel again so what we have to do is what we've got to go look at what the word actually mean no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no Ephesians 511 no I don't consider him to be a false teacher I like him I really do I just think he's wrong on on that point so let's go look at this word replenish this word replenish in the Hebrew is from the Hebrew word and so it means to fill up to to feel to complete that's all because he's reading out of the King James version this is where a little bit of the problem goes this was some of the problems come in because oh that word replenish means I know what it means replenish and if I'm going to replenish the water that I've taken out if I'm going to replenish the vitamins or what have you replenish the word we know in English read means to do it again so replenish replenish replenish again fill it up again that's just not what the word means now we're gonna look at how there is more proof more evidence that that's not what he's getting at but before I do I want to go back to him preaching in his own image but there were people who lived on the earth before Adam and that's not a revelation to you because you already understand that you cannot replenish something that was never finished in the first place and God didn't say replenish the earth he said replenish so God the Creator wanted the earth field with people so therefore he knew that Adam the man even though the man could keep the garden pretty good on his own what the man couldn't do is asexually reproduce and so that was his whole point he just kind of goes off on this little side point to make mention that that Adam wasn't the first man but his main point is that men and women are different and that a man by himself can't reproduce nor can a woman but it's that little side point that he goes on that I want to cover it and I want to flesh this out I don't care whether it's the NASB the ESV the NLT the King Jane I don't care what it is if you want to do a deep dive sometimes you're gonna have to okay let's look at the words which is why if you do have let's say a parallel Bible then you'll see wait a second this word says this this word says that which is true which is correct but that's within you know what maybe let's go and look at the word and see how the word is spelled out and maybe I look at the commentaries of someone else and see what they say which is fine look looking at someone else's commentary is more than acceptable all you're doing is seeing what others who also put some time into this what they think about it as well which is fine now obviously the commentary is not gospel are you with me so it's nice to know what he says what they said with what everyone else says and so and then you in your understanding and through your prayer and so forth you want to get the best understanding that you possibly can get so now is it is it is plenty is punished a word yeah punishes a word it actually isn't an actual English word we just don't use it that much we don't say hey go punish this we don't we now we might use the word punishing but we really don't use the word punished that often but that being the case how do we know that this is not speaking or Adam was the very first man do I believe in the gap theory no I do not no I do not as a matter of fact there's a couple of reasons why first of all when we look at Genesis because the issue is we I believe that Adam is the first man I'm gonna tell you also who else says that and what the implications are of him being the first man but when we look at Genesis one I want to go over a couple passes so guys get your get your notebooks out or just someone said I don't need to take notes all I have to do is if you go to a passage I just do a screenshot and that's that so anyway let's go to it let's start in Genesis one before we get to verse 28 I want to read what happened on the the second day if I can scroll up to it or scroll down to it where's it at okay first nine then God said let the waters below the heavens be gathered in one place and let the dry land appear and it was so so God called the dry land earth and the gathering of the waters he called seas and God saw that it was good then God said let there let the earth sprout vegetation plants yielding seed and fruit trees on the earth bearing fruit after their own kind with seed in them and it was so the earth brought forth vegetations plants yielding seed after their kind and trees bearing fruit with their seed in them after their kind and God so that it was good and he tells us what date was it was and there was morning and a third I'm sorry there was evening and there was morning a third day so on the and this is a reason why I'm going to this day on the third day he created vegetation right now let's think about what's happening here so far on the third day what we have so far as we got light the earth has begun rotating is beginning it's begun spinning how do we know so because we have light and any at night we have day and night how does it work now the same way work then the earth begins to spin here's the source of light shining and then on this side that's not until this side of the earth turns around for all you flat earthers that's how it works the second day what do we have on the second day we've got the separations of the atmosphere the expanses being separated into the oxygen the atmosphere that we that we have then the next level of atmosphere which is what we call outer space are you with me then on the third day we've got vegetation on the fourth day what do we have now he begins to create stars the Sun celestial bodies are created on the fourth day remember what was on the third day remember the third day the fourth day we have celestial bodies the fifth day what do we get then God said let the the waters team with swarms of living creatures and let the birds fly above and so forth so now what do we have on the on this fifth day the fifth day we get animals or as my grandson says Amano's we get Amano's or animals we get bees in the sky and in the waters and on the ground then we I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry in the sky and in the and in the waters let's go to verse 24 then God said let the earth bring forth living creatures after their kind cattle creeping things and beasts of the earth after their own kind let's drop down God saw that it was good verse 25 then verse 26 then God said here it is let us make man in our image according to our likeness and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle verse 27 I won't read all that God created man in his own image in the image of God he created him male and female he created them so God blessed them and God said to them be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it so now that's the point that he gets to if you just read from verses 20 26 down seems like on that day on that day that God made all of mankind if all if that's all that you had he made all of mankind on that day well in truth he did but he started with one person now he's speaking in kind of a summary fashion of all all of mankind and the word that he says let's make man alright our image true enough it is singular but he's speaking of mankind now here's how I know he's not speaking of multiple man's and this how it means men and this how I know the gap theory also cannot be true let's continue let's go to chapter 2 Genesis 2 and let's start in the very beginning verse 1 he says thus the heavens and the earth were completed and all their hopes by the seventh day God completed his work which he had done and he rested on the seventh day from all his work so we're getting a summary of what God did day one two three four and five and what he did on day seven which is nothing he ceased from all of his work are you all with me make sure you guys are with me I want you to remember two things one the day that vegetation was created well Cory why are we talking about vegetation I'll tell you in a second and then to the day that man was created man was created on what day the sixth day let's continue verse 3 then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it because he had arrested from all of his work which he had created and had made so now remember also God had seized from creating are you with me so on the seventh day we can we can clearly say because he just says so as a matter of fact he said a couple of times that God has seized from creating so everything that was created was created when then the first six days day three is important vegetation was created on day three day six man was created day seven God sees from creating now I want you to get verse four we have this some would call it the consecutive while where you're finishing a thought with this with the word why and and you're given a summary of what you just said that's what's happening in Genesis 2 verse 4 I want you look at this he says this he says this is the account of the heavens and the earth these this is the count the heavens and earth and the earth when they were created so he's going he's giving an account of the heavens and earth when it was created what is he doing he's summarizing or recapping what is he gonna do he's gonna add extra detail to what was already stated we know that God is not creating things a second time because we're just told that he ceased from all of his creation from all of his creative work so now verse four is he's getting giving us a summary a recap he says now no shrub on the field was yet in the earth and no plant on the field had yet sprouted for the Lord God had not sent rain upon the earth and there was no man to cultivate the ground but a mist used to rise from the earth and to water the whole surface of the ground then the Lord God for man of dust from the ground so get in the picture when God on that third day creates vegetation vegetation still needs to be watered what is God doing he's bringing up a midst of mist of water to water it he's not giving and this is the reason why I brought this up he's not giving a second account I'm sorry an account of a second creation of vegetation he's not given an account of a second creation of anything else so when he goes to verse seven then after he's caused the mist to come up to water the vegetation day three day four day five announced day six he says then the Lord God formed man of the dust from the ground and breathe into his nostrils the breath of life and man became a living being the Lord God planted a garden toward the east of Eden and there he placed the man whom he had formed out of the ground the Lord God caused to grow every tree that is pleasing to the site and good for food so now that parts important all he's doing is giving a recap a summary of what he's done now some are going to say but no core I still think that there were other people that were created we got a problem then because Adam is going to make a statement in just a little bit that's going to nullify that the problem is after sin comes into the earth Adam matter of fact he just gave a recap Bishop wooden did give a recap about when he lines them up and Adam woke Adam blame someone else he blames Eve and he blames God but look at what Adam says after they're put out look at what now by the way her name we don't have her name up until Genesis 3 and look what God look what Eve Eve look what God calls I'm sorry I'm getting this backwards look what Adam calls her he says now the man called his wife the woman Isha or Easto his wife he named her Eve why because she was the mother of all the living or all living things so now who is Eve she is the mother of all living things she is the mother of all living things are with me now I want to back up back to chapter 2 where is it oh I'm sorry I'm in the wrong spot that's why now go back to 4 in Genesis 2 for there's a word that's used when God wants to kind of tell you about the Genesis of things pun included those bigger the Genesis of things there's a word that's used when God wants to spell out the the Genesis the beginning of things this word right here we put on the screen this word in the Hebrew word is told off this word told off is the generations or the gen the beginning the offspring so the beginning of mankind is Genesis 2 4 now we see it spoken of in Genesis 1 but Genesis 2 4 he again he's giving a recap all he's saying guys this is the summary of this is the account of it this this is the generations of mankind and he starts where with Adam the first man now the question is going to be this are we still sure though Corey well we got a problem if we don't think that Adam is the first man now it says that Eve is the first woman well it says she's the mother of all living things obviously not animals but of human beings but does that mean that she's also the mother of the living things that preceded Adam what happened to them if there were people that lived before Adam and Eve we got a we got a problem we have a huge problem first of all we have a problem with the text the text says matter of fact let's go back to Genesis 1 let's go back let's go to the very very very beginning and let's look what the Bible says in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth the earth was formless and void this word for void is the word for empty is nothing there empty well question if before Adam there were people where were the people well they got killed where their bones that were the bodies who buried them where the graves it was empty there was nothing there but then God then gives a recount of or Moses get a recount as explained him by God what happened on day one two three four five and six so forth right if we're saying that because some folks say well the the reason for those words told Abu that the name said right the word tofu and this word for bohoo means that there was this wrath because it's used one of the time that's not the word means the word literally means and this hovering over him was kind of in a judgmental fashion the problem is though we're not told that now I believe this and this is why I think that everyone needs to figure out what their hermeneutics are how you gonna read the Bible do you just guess as you go do you make it as you go or do you just take what the word says God displays in his word what he wants us to know now does he does he give us everything no he does not he doesn't tell us every single thing he didn't tell us what color the trees were in the garden he didn't eat until he didn't eat until what the fruit was that they ate up that tell us we don't know that we don't know how tall Adam need work we don't there's a lot of things that I'm sure there's a there's an answer to but we don't have the information all we do know is that God on these first six days give gives an account as to how he did it on which day and then chapter 2 gives a summary and the summary he tells us exactly what has happened matter let's go back to chapter 2 and then let's see when we get to verse 18 he says then the Lord God said it is not good for the man to be alone for I will make him a helper suitable for him out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the sky and brought them to the man now is he saying that after Adam was made then he formed the animals know the animals already created he's just he just recapping that and that he brings bringing these animals to him to signify point they're not suitable for him they're not for him now if mankind has already been judged and been destroyed before Adam what happened to the animal they also destroyed was vegetation as well so are we saying there was a second account where God destroyed the earth was there no savior for them he made people that he did not love enough to have a savior for them but for us he did and so when he destroys the earth for sin he keeps us he allows mankind to flourish and to live on after that but he didn't for them now it's just as though we're making up things and what we may try to do sometimes we may try to bring in science as an extra level of explanation as to what happened and some of this is brought up when we ask questions such as where did Cain get his wife from what Cain got his wife from either he married a sister or I don't mean since like like a black sister but I mean he married a sister or he married a niece because guess what we don't know we don't know how long one they were in the garden but two we don't know how long it was after before Cain killed a we don't know how long it was a year a hundred year we just don't know all we know is that these people are from Eve the Bible clearly tells us that wherever he got his wife from Eve was the mother of all living are with me now we're gonna make this even more clear because we've got some issues that we're going to have to deal with now the Bible says that he made them male and female doesn't necessarily mean that he made them male and female on that day how do I know why am I saying that because says in verse 21 the Lord God caused a deeply to fall upon the man and he slept and he took one of his ribs and closed up the flesh at that place the Lord God fashioned into a woman the rib which he had taken from the man and brought them brought the man together now it's not like what some of the kooks have said that what it what it what did the the fake prophet lovy said that Adam was pregnant with Eve nothing silly like that or the other guy who said that when God said told man to be fruitful multiply he said to somebody that didn't have eyes or ears or body now what we don't want to do is get ahead of ourselves and start thinking when we can just simply just take what it said and let's see if what he says if it fits if what he says fits then in the words of Johnny Cochran if it don't fit you must equip but this does fit so now you don't have to quit anything I'm trying to figure out how to say this right anyway so he has fashioned woman out of men why would he do that why would do that if in the past he had men and women just create men and women because he's given an account of how woman came to be are you with me and the next question we're going to have to deal with is that if sin enters the world through Adam how did it what about prior to Adam we'll get there in a second but I want to see what Jesus says God tells us the Bible tells us that Adam named Eve because she was the mother of all living that should settle right there she's the mother of all living so everything that every human being that's living or even ever a blip finds their genesis in her Jesus makes a statement he says when the Pharisees came to him testing him and asking is it lawful for man to divorce his wife for any reason Jesus answering said have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female and he said for this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife and the two shall become one notice what he just said and notice what I just read I intentionally stopped in in Genesis 3 I'm sorry Genesis 2 I actually stopped there but let's go back to it he says in verse 22 the Lord God fashioned this is Genesis 222 the Lord God fashioned into a woman the rib which he had taken from the man and brought the man and to the man he said now this is bone of my bone and flesh is my flesh she shall be called woman because she was taken out of man we says for this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother and be joined to his wife and the two shall become one but then we go back over here to what Jesus says he says the same thing he quotes the same thing he says have you not read that he who created them from the beginning created who man and man woman created them well he's giving an account of Adam and Eve but he's calling them them he created them male and female and said for this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife and the two shall become one so the exact same statement Jesus is making about Adam is what is also been stated about Adam in Genesis 2 and he said this is what was done in the very beginning when he created them male and female so he's taken from Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 Jesus is taken from Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 and putting the story together for us now the issue is if Adam was not the first within God has a problem with some sort of consistency with his word because all throughout scripture we're going to keep finding out that Adam is declared to be the first of man matter of fact even I alluded to this a second ago when we talk about sin what's our big problem on the earth the big problem that we have as human beings as Christians that we got this sin issue ladies and gentlemen my question is where did sin come who might say spicy rib where did sin come from well sin came from who from Adam let's go ask Paul he says therefore chapter 5 verse 12 of Romans he says therefore just as through one man sin into the world and death through sin and so death spread to all men because all of sin so all men receive the punishment of sin why because of one man Adam he's the father well the father of it but through him we get this genetic code in us that lets us know our sin was inherited our nature was inherited just like our daddy going back to our grandmama miss eve he says for until the law look what he says sin was in the world but sin is not imputed when there is there is no law nevertheless death reigns from look what he says from Adam until Moses even over those who had not sin in the likeness of the offense of Adam who was the type of him who was to come now focus on this point sin entered the world through Adam and look what he says he says he's speaking about the law so the law gives us these rules or gives them these rules how to live by how to govern themselves the covenant and so forth made with God but he says before then we had sin and even knew of sin and where does where does the drawing point come from between who and who between what and what between Adam and between Moses or I should do the other way between Adam and between Moses so sin starts in Adam and then Moses was there sin before Adam if so why didn't he mention it he's speaking about the fact that there was sin even before there was the law where did it start out the the genesis of sin in genesis with Adam so from Adam to Moses sin reigned then here comes the law are you with me he could have just said if you want to say well this is how he if he wants to say well Adam was kind of starting the world over then it would have made sense if he would have said the sin would have reigned from Noah to Moses but he didn't because every every offspring after that Noah and his wife produced everybody else his three sons well I'll take it back I take it back not their wives I take it back I shouldn't say that take it back he didn't they didn't lose their wives so but the point is though he could have started from from Noah but he didn't he starts from the first human being where we all get our as we want to say genetic code and our sin nature from we get it from Adam then Paul also said Paul said again in 1st Corinthians 1545 look what he says he says so also it is written the first man Adam became a living soul the last Adam became a life-giving spirit why is that important well he uses two terms the first man and says what his name is in the Hebrew though his name was Adam and he was Adam Adam can be a proper name and it can be a proper noun and it can be a common noun a common noun in sense that he's that he's a man and he's mankind by the way in Hebrew you also say man by the saying the word ish and woman isha or Adam which also means Adam or the man or mankind but here he clarifies he makes a distinction between the first human being the first male the first man his name is Adam the first man which is anthropos Adam and he says his name also to the right Adam so we see that the first man according to Paul is Adam we should never have any room to say that somebody else was the first man that Adam was not Paul also says again in 1st Timothy 211 he says a woman must quietly receive instruction with with entire submissiveness but i do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over man but to remain quiet for it was Adam who was first created then Eve and it was not Adam who was the sea so anyway point is he says then after that we fell into into transgression so he's clear Paul says it enough time Jesus says it the bible is clear the first man was Adam now he mentioned that science or what have archaeology proves crow magnum man well first of all they are inconclusive at best when we try to date these things we have there's such a wide period of dating between who they think is the crow magnum man the brass command and so forth it's imprecise one of the reasons why i don't want to be scientific because i'm not a scientist anyway but one of the big reasons why is because we're trying to measure the amount of carbon in their bones the problem is the amount of carbon in the atmosphere is not the same if you're a scientist you think it's because there's been an ice age if you are an actual believer you got some sense you know there's a flood the amount of carbon in the atmosphere today is not the same as it was and so we cannot date it's like we're trying to we're trying to measure two different atmospheres that aren't the same so we don't know scientific dating is inconclusive at best at best they have done dating on living creatures and inconclusively have sometimes come back to be a million years old so let's not use that we don't need to all we've got the book the book is enough the book hadn't failed so if the book says it i'm gonna go with the book not what scientists may say what we may think are with me now why is this important there's a reason why all of this is important this so i said all that to say this it matters how you read the bible because you may not be a wise enough man to not go off a deep end like bishop would but you could you can take a scripture and just run off a deep end and next you know you're saying all sorts of crazy things the bible never never even intimated that the bible never even had in mind because of how you read the scripture are you with me again that's why whole people their feet to the fire i heard somebody say won't say who but i heard somebody say today that he believes that mankind was indwelt with the holy spirit in the old testament okay fine give me the scripture for that because it cannot be i believe it's got to be the scriptures say are you with me give me book chapter verse give me where it is if you don't then you're gonna have to stop saying stuff are you with me so you need to i need to make sure that we have a set of principles that are consistent with how we read the scriptures was the earth excuse me was the earth created in six days well don't know don't know that's different than saying was creation made in six days that's the point creation was created all that we see was done in six days the rock was there before he said let there be now how long before have no idea could have been a minute before a second don't know so let's just say what the bible says and be consistent if he says that it was done in creating six days and we notice what a 24 hour revolution of the earth looks like and then Moses comes back and exits and says that in six days he created the earth and rested so in six days you'll work and then rest we have a we have a good working definition we understand because he's referring back to the beginning and our our hermeneutics our wave interpretation has not changed are you with me what do you say this is my buddy he says uh total adult explain the total adults cori uh total equals history x y z no i'm not explaining anything you get on you get on here you get your channel you explain how about that quit trying to run my life sir no i'm kidding i'm that's my buddy guys so i but uh no because because we'll be forever but now he does he does do this in stages i will say this we covered this in the class before if you look at how portions of Genesis is broken down he does talk about the total adult this is the generation of this generation of and so forth and then what's funny is he kind of brings that back up in Matthew or the writer of Matthew or Matthew himself kind of does piggybacks off of that as well so go somewhere go somewhere get off get off my live stream i'm not talking to y'all i'm talking to i'm talking to my buddy so anyway but the point is you need to have a consistent way of reading scriptures where does this come up let me let me just make some people mad let me make some people would you say vance he says a thousand years is one day well you also have to take into account idiom he says and matter of fact the context he doesn't say that a thousand years equals one day um and use the word that a thousand years is liken them to one year uh i'm gonna say a thousand years or one day like a thousand years i'm saying it backwards the point is that with God there is no time that's kind of the whole framework that he's using that in in the old ad new testament and so the point is we do take into account idioms and figures of speech and so forth metaphors we take that into account all the time and i want to be consistent all the way through i had this conversation with someone who was trying to tell me that israel doesn't always mean israel so we'll give me one passage where israel does not refer to the nation of israel give me one the guy couldn't but you know what i mean no i don't know what you mean i don't all i have all i have is the words and all i know is that that i'm not that smart you ain't that smart now we are the we are the smartest of christians a man smart christians out there but we're still dumb we're still dumb i'm dumb uh listen no no no offense monkey moves you're dumb dutch you dumb dutch hey let me let me touch your mama dumb your daddy dumb my mama dumb your daddy dumb my daddy dumb all of us are dumb all of us that's how that's the only way i can get away with that huh because somebody's mama dumb because we are all human beings are dumb we are not that bright we are not that bright no offense miss dutch this is dutch we're not that bright it's just us who think that we are and so we go read things let me go ahead just read it to you know to me this is what this means this means that no be quiet be quiet most of us didn't know plenish was a word i didn't even i actually i had to go look up plenish i'm be honest with you full disclosure i had to go look up plenish like is that even a word and i look yeah my grandma is dumb too yeah grandma but now my grandma can cook though um i'd rather have wisdom than smarts any day well i'd rather have both i would listen i wonder i i hope i'm getting wise i'm getting smarter i'm just knowing some stuff and i want to have the ability to use it but the only way i can use it intelligently is through the holy spirit and so being smart i told you all this before being smart being a smart christian is not what you know being a smart christian begins with what you realize you don't know because it keeps you from reading into the text trying to figure to me this means that i think it means that well god doesn't think that you know how to think in the first place so let's read it like a five-year-old well a lot of five-year-olds can't read today let's read it like a like a student should be reading it and let's compare this is why i say y'all can ask you guys a question can i ask you guys a question wait a minute hold up ah i'm low on coffee hmm it's cold coffee from earlier this morning but can i ask you guys a question here's my question do you all think there's a reason for genesis exodus leviticus numbers do you all think there's a reason for those books that we don't like to read them y'all think there's a reason why they're there do y'all think there's a reason why they're in the beginning of the bible anybody does anybody believe there's a good reason yeah there's a reason for that stuff being there god didn't say you know what i didn't take up some space i need to fill some time let's just put in genesis and let's go let's let's go through numbers let me let let me give him a real book that i want to read there's no merit to these books whatsoever how about judges over die where is over die dog going if i could not type it in put an o and a b i know overdive beams were o and a b and i'll let the spell check find it for me i didn't know there was a book jon where's where's jon right there is a reason for these books there's a reason it's a purpose for what he's saying he's trying to one one is going to show us mankind his failures he's going to always show himself how how he is sovereign when we start the class back up remember there's one thing above all else above all else god is sovereign hey look at there look at there we've got we've got uh someone who if they don't know christ is going to help hey mr uh would you say the the coran is the perfect example of how disorderly that oh i'm sorry i'm sorry you know what listen i can't read well i'm i gotta get these glasses fixed i thought what you said was the coran is perfect i gotta work on let me i should you know i should do i should just make this that thing bigger but if i make it bigger if i make what i'm reading over there bigger and it's like way over there now my the new setup it'll be closer to me but if right now i just see stuff i see i'm like the kid in six cents wise i don't see bad people i just see images so i'm sorry thank you thank you it's all good thank you thank you i could not see this did he just say i told you i'm looking at i'm okay i'm looking at this screen over here i'm looking at this screen right here i'm looking at the text and stuff over here i'm looking at the chat i'm looking at the camera all with with my eyes sometimes this eye fails me i don't quite see like i want to see but back to the point back to the point but what was the point the point is god when you read the scriptures there's an order to it and god is one he's going to show himself above all else god of cyber we'll see how god is working through things i've challenged you guys before that if you want to look at salvation if you want to look at the bible if you want to look at us look try your best i know it's hard but try to look at it through the lens of god how he sees us i do i i do too legit i do i'm feeling good too i'm feeling good but look at how how god for example salvation oftentimes we look at salvation from our viewpoint that's why i said before the greatest gift ever is not us receiving christ the greatest gift is is the father giving a gift to the son now it's not the gift it's a it's the giving the giver yeah sure christ as a gift is better than us as a gift but that's from our vantage point the greatest gift that we've ever received ever is for us by far as christ but remember god gives a gift to the son he gives what we have at this picture in the wedding god gives the son i mean the bride to the son and so and this is why it's important because he ain't losing that gift god gave the son the bride do you think that the son is going to lose what the father gave him as a gift and the word is getting the word is gift i'm not making the word up which Jesus goes on to say that i will not lose any that that he's giving me it's important versus from our standpoint the owns is on us to keep it no no no it's not now look at what god is doing we see it from the old testament how he's lining this thing up he is stating that i not me but god has stated how he wants sin to be atoned for he does not us and so it's going to be by this blood sacrifice and you place your faith in it and we see going forward oh it's the same thing he just gives a better better element better high priest better um better scapegoat and a better uh uh perpetuation what is that i don't i don't know what the seal i have no idea what that is the sealed portion i i couldn't tell you i couldn't not tell you what that is so i don't know i did i did dash i saw caron and i saw another word and i saw another word and i was like did he just say the caron is perfect because i've had god you know i you get guys on here and in the chat so we'll say that um hey man what's so everything's written king james version what's so everything's written um a four time for before time we're written for talk on me lean forward and see what it says we're written for our learning that we through patience and comfort excuse me uh of the scriptures might have hope amen what the Old Testament shows us is what the Old Testament shows us is that how hopelessly lost we were even if god puts the ball in our corner and let us make a decision we still screw it up we still mess up so we look back and see how bad it was and then we see how good it is because of him hold on one second hold on one second i'm sorry i'm sorry i was doing two things at once so anyway i just want to kind of make that clear again this is not this is not um taking a shot at bishop wooden who i love i listen i i i like the man i like i was gonna say no the chats are not distracting to me it is today it is today my eyes are all over thank you marvin i appreciate the kind words but i don't want you all thinking that i do not like i do not like bishop wooden i do i think he's a wonderful preacher i think he's a wonderful man i like him as a man um how he stands for truth and he's not moved by this current society i think he's awesome but the problem that he exhibited here on that passage was one maybe and maybe it was brought about by the king james version or maybe it was brought about by trying to kind of consolidate and reconcile what science is saying and and the bible i don't think that's what it was i i i probably think that it's probably the uh the the translation that he was reading and the word replenish and then you know because sometimes we see something we go to thinking we go to thinking and thunkin and thunkin and we thunk something wrong and then next thing we know we're over here so what i think of ken ham uh i you know what i think there's some validity to what he said now everything i don't know i'm not i'm not a scientist in that regard so i would not um i would not be able to give a a good statement on him so anyway guys i want to thank you i have got to i've got to run but i wanted to clear that up some once that to me i thought as i'm looking at the uh when i first saw i was like what did he say no there's gotta be some clarification what he said well no he he he meant what he said i just think that he was wrong but does that make him wrong as a person does it make he he's going to hell no he's not going to hell he's he's okay check out jason lyle okay um i'll try to remember to check out jason lyle i've got a bunch of do i've got a i've got a my bank account is jacked up because somebody tried to spend something and we can't figure out who spent something on my card and so they canceled everything i had to cancel everything and so now um i gotta talk to the people to get some stuff straight in the way or whatever then i gotta then i gotta come back and get you know how you have everything tied to a card or something like that then you gotta turn around and and you gotta uh okay i gotta take this out of that card i gotta do that and do that do that do that and so somebody's gonna not get paid and i gotta figure out well um i guess i'll get a note and they'll tell me and then i'll i'll fix it uh what'd you say okay uh for you lisa i'll do this for you lisa lisa says can i explain matthew five twenty two you have heard that the ancients were told you shall not commit murder and whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court but i say to you that everyone or the word for everyone is past all the ones who are being angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court and whoever says hasteon which is also whoever all of the ones says to his brother you good for nothing you good for nothing raka shall be guilty uh before the supreme court and whoever says you fool shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell so what's his point he's making well first of all you need to see the uh hold on let me say it let me pull this back up again um let's put this i want to show you got something if you're saying you good for nothing raka uh you shall be guilty before the supreme court and whoever the one who's saying whoever's saying this person you fool shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell so you mean tell me if you call somebody a fool by the way the uh it's really it's really uh in the same vein as the other word before but if you're saying that you he's not saying okay i'm having a conversation with a christian friend of mine and we in his heated uh you a fool am i going to hell for that i won't let's flesh yourself for a second am i am i going to hell for that no wait a second okay i will i will probably see you um am i going to help no i'm not going to hell for that now am i wrong sure his point is if you are thinking if you're going around and now this should be a warning though if you are thinking if this is your pattern of you constantly this this is who you are everybody's a fool is what you're doing this is the state that you're in uh then now you are in danger of hell because the issue is your heart the issue is your heart if your heart is that cold and that demented you clearly don't have the holy spirit and that's why and we've seen the example because we've got the the Pharisees who look down on the people we've got one who is who is repentant uh beating he's just sorrowful and then the Pharisee the leader i think i'm not like him that i'm not like i thank you thank thanks for making me great okay see you inhale see you inhale sir so he said would you say you said could i please where's that probably please give miguel the good news okay what's happening miguel what let me what's going on your comments i didn't see your comments okay you're thinking that you might be going to hell um i don't want you to think that well first of all if you think you're going to hell there's a remedy for that i'm not catching all what you're saying but um let me say this i don't care what is you're going through the mere fact that you're here is testimony enough that god can see you through how do i know he can see you through because he saw you here through to this point you are not a figment of our imagination so you must be here you are you are legitimately here and the reason why you are here the if you have not placed your faith in christ then that means you've been given grace the gift of time to hear the good news the good news is simply this there is salvation available to you if you only believe do you believe that jesus christ pay the debt you couldn't pay the debt is this you're no good i'm no good we all know that it should take a lot it doesn't take a right sign to realize and figure out that i messed up i keep the good the good stuff i want to do i never do i want to get myself right and i never do and i keep messing up it seems as though every time i walk or i seem to be a failure in life i seem to mess up every relationship that i've had and i'm having maybe it's the same thing with with jobs and career choices i just there's a lot of things that i keep messing up on you're still loved maybe not by the people that you're around that can be changed but you're certainly loved by christ and the good news is that the the the punishment that you deserve that i deserve is all voided if we simply believe that jesus christ paid that debt god required one debt blood not mine nor yours but his he shed his blood as a payment and if you trust that god accepts that payment if you accept that god i mean that if you trust that god accepted that payment that jesus born on the cross for us if you believe that the bible says you'll be saved and then what happens is jesus on the profession of your faith baptizes you in the holy spirit is it a feeling you get you might get a feeling i don't know some some do some don't but what you will get is a movement and then what you will know for a fact if you believe you will be saved the good news is that salvation has come to the world permanently that's it and so my brother or anyone else who hears this message it's just simple you don't have to do anything to get saved you don't have to be anybody to get saved all you have to do is just place your faith in him just trust what he did on the day of atonement under the old he didn't change anything he just changed the elders which i looked to earlier god provided the bull god provided the scapegoat places sins on the head of the people on the head of scapegoat and sent it away and then shed the blood by the priest and god accepted the god accepted the payment that he that he provided and all they had to do was just trust in it they believe god and then they were saved they were they were in right standing now it's permanent thank you britain for the super chat so that being said now by the way let me say this also i would be remiss i would be derelict in my duty if i didn't say this the rest of you all five hundred something of you tell somebody that even if you gotta just type it in an email chat or something like that a group chat a group text if your own facebook and someone it has a nice little video a little a cute video a pg or g video these little radar videos you guys just go ahead just out of the blue i want you all to know this is a funny video but jesus loves you do that let it strike up a conversation we are called to be a light we are called to be a witness jesus says not me but jesus says if you aren't a light if you are salt and you are not seasoning people he says not me he says you're good for nothing i don't think you're good for nothing i think that when he says pray therefore that the lord sends labors since the labors since we need since the harvest is plentiful we just need labors that's us that's me that's you it's all of us let somebody know even if you don't know how to say it just tell somebody how good jesus been for you and then let's watch how people change amen


Good morning, everyone. Good morning. Good mic check, Duffy. I'm only ever 50% sure it's going to work. We'll give folks a few more minutes. Amy, do we want to wait another minute? Nope, we've got about 20 folks coming on in, so we are ready to get started. All right, let's go ahead and get started then. Good morning, everyone. Good day. Thank you so much for joining this public POC meeting as a reminder. We are all subject to the LF anti-trust policy notice. Meeting logistics, if you're here, you figured out where the meeting is next. And we have several TOC members here present today as a quick reminder. This is a public meeting, so we are welcoming community members feedback. We're going to be talking today about the approach to inactive CNCF projects. There is an open issue on our repo. Thank you so much, Dawn, for filing this so we can have this discussion today. So for those of you that haven't been following some of the TOC dialogue as a recent, we've been asking a lot more around a lot of questions around project health, their status, checking in with them, because the current process says that we have annual reviews for sandbox projects, but we don't have the equivalent for incubating and graduated. And as projects move between levels, they experience a lot of changes. Some of them take off, they see widespread rampant adoption, and then in other cases, some of them don't. So what do we do with projects that reach in an active state? It could be any number of reasons. Maintainers could have taken some time off to go deal with some personal matters or change companies or organizations, but we might expect them to come back. So I want to open the floor to the discussion. We've got some initial questions here that I think can help drive the conversation a little bit in this space. So I wanted to first make everyone aware that we do have several dashboards that exist that the foundation puts together for us. That from dev stats, we also have project health table that lets us know, kind of like, what are the most recent commits of a project? How long has it been since they've had them? But these are not always good indicators of a project's activity. There could be things that are going on outside of the actual Git commits and their repos. So I'm going to silence myself for a quick and kind of like open the floor for discussion. If you have something that you would like to mention, come off mute, raise your hand. We'll try to do a good job of making sure everyone has the opportunity to speak. Richie. Yes. So two thoughts at the same time. On the one hand. I want to lead in with that. I know that certain projects don't have to have a lot of GitHub or other visibility. Open metrics is the obvious, is the obvious example there as a standard. There is, it would actually be a bad thing if there was activity all the time. It's actually a good thing that there are long pauses in the activity. And of course, again, with that out of the way, I do think that we as CNCF would benefit from, from being a little bit more assertive in, in asserting the, the basically continued development of projects. Of course, I feel historically we, we have been very inviting to pretty much everything and everyone. And it just, it's overhead in a lot of places and part of the burden we as to see our feeling is a lot of projects to, to handle and, and being a little bit more assertive about both allowing projects and archiving projects. It would be good. Thanks, Richie. Josh. Have we discussed having incubating graduated projects do annual reports if they haven't had a due diligence. This year. We have talked about that, not in relation to this issue, but as a result of other conversations and challenges that come up. So I, I believe in any TLC member, please correct me. I think we're all relatively in favor of annual reviews for incubating and graduating projects. However, we want to ensure that we're not increasing the amount of burden on reporting coming from the project. So identifying which portions of an annual report are indicators of change on a project in an automated way as much as possible, where those engagements with the project to check on their status are slightly lighter weight, whether or not that's a TLC member checking in with them after we've received an automated annual report or annual review from them, or perhaps extending that capability to the tags to check in with those projects and leverage that report as a function, a functional driving point in conversation around some of those activities. Yeah, I mean, I was just thinking about annual reports both as a way to you know, indicate activity, particularly in the case of projects where a constant stream of commits is not the best gauge of activity. The second thing is also annual reports as a chance to check in on potentially other looming project problems. Like for example, an exodus of maintainers, which we've had as you know, with a couple of projects, the it's just we have a lot of projects now and keeping track of all of them by a dashboard is would be challenging even with the best dashboard in the world. And we haven't yet figured out what the best dashboard in the world looks like. Yep, I agree. Richie. So yeah, I mean it's maybe weird for me considering the work as I fully agree just having a dashboard is not going to be super effective because it's the case of putting expensive humans in front of a screen. Automated reports alerts and such would be much better. I with my project head on or two different project heads on a I fully agree with Emily that this must be automated as much as possible and only if certain if certain things are not being met, should we even actively reach out and really introduce much of a process because most of the projects are really resource and time strapped already and putting more burden on them is is not precisely why use a project join an umbrella. The other thing is tracking will not be always possible like with my open telemetry head on it's it's it's very hard to track relevant contributions which happen in other places and are still relevant for the project and this is also true for the for the life speed of a given project. So we can never fully automate all of this. But we should as much as we can. Yep, I agree. So I Richie use you just mentioned something that's interesting and I would like to kind of tease this out because we've had a recent discussion around this is when things are not being met. So right now the criteria for archiving projects is more or less kind of clear. It basically states that it the project has to continue to meet the criteria for CNCF acceptance and the criteria changes depending on what level it is that you're looking at for the most part we see projects that come in at the sandbox level. We have some criteria that is already defined but it's not very robust and when the TOC is evaluating projects for sandbox inclusion we cover. We look at a lot of different things. We look at how many maintainers they have, how active they are, what kind of documentation exists, what plans do they have for the project, what's the direction that they're heading in, and those projects provide us with a lot of information about what's going on with them so that we can help make those decisions. But for incubating projects that criteria looks a little different. Projects need to be ready and what's ready for one project doesn't look the same as another. We go through the due diligence process. We do have criteria that are defined at the incubation level. So my question is, is the criteria that we have for archival enough of a low bar for determining whether or not we need to reengage with projects if they come up as inactive? And how could we potentially programmatically identify indicators that would allow us to have that conversation? Because I don't believe based off of the criteria that we have, we can do that today. I think there is at least three and a half substrands in answers to that question. Maybe on the high level first, I personally believe that yes, there should be more scrutiny on, let's say, a graduated project than the Sandbox project due to the simple fact that it is people are more likely to trust it. So there is also more risk of sorts if that thing goes still. I lost part of the track of the, as you asked me directly, at the latest when we trigger whatever mechanisms or whatever threshold we have, we must be engaging with the project, but it's kind of tautologic anyway, but we should give them a fair warning before we do so and at least ask about the health of the project and things like these. And I forgot the rest, sorry. Sorry. For the archiving, we've talked about making sure that that process is a little bit more clear and to your point specifically engaging with the project to kind of understand first what's going on, see if there's something that we're not aware of that we haven't considered. Perhaps they are holding regular meetings to kind of figure out what their long-term planning and roadmap actually looks like and they might have paused work on the project until they've gotten a clearer vision and that's entirely reasonable and that's something we can learn when we re-engage with them. But generally speaking, we want to ensure that projects have the opportunity to let us know what's going on, but I want to ensure that they also feel empowered to reach out to tags or TOC members if they're struggling. Josh, is your hand still up or do you have something to add? I mean, I do have something to add, but it kind of takes us in a different direction. So let me wait for other people have more to say at that point. Okay, Ricardo. I just had a quick question on the second bullet in this slide, which is about health and activity of a project. We're talking about archival. Is this also counting on kind of demoting a project or do we expect it to move to archival and come back if it becomes active again? Or are we considering like incubation back to sandbox or graduation back to incubation, things like this? That is an excellent question. I don't know that we've actually talked about that or had that presented as a potential alternative.  Craig, so I'm going to let's do Richie and then Craig. I'm pretty certain TOC has never discussed this. I know I was in several discussions about precisely this topic, about like demoting projects and having a way back. We always came out at A, this being super confusing for end users, this back and forth. And also about this, like if you are graduated and you're idle enough to need a warning, it should be a strong warning and not basically a soft cushion of, oh, I can basically just as soon as I ramp back up everything will be fine and dandy. I think there should be more of a cliff to honestly keep people motivated at that point where things are already pressing. It also makes it easier internally. If you are working at a company which used to sponsor something and you're being told, hey, this might fall off of a cliff, you have a much easier time internally and you have a lot of resources and everything. Craig? There was a comment that I put on one of the issues when you were talking about adding more requirements to graduation. And I think it was more like, let's say there needs to be a current diversity of maintenance. In the event that the project otherwise stayed the same in terms of adoption and no longer had that diversity, it technically wouldn't meet the criteria but because it had at some point in the past would remain in that bucket. So I think it was a little bit different from what I thought it would be in terms of how the project was going to be used. But I thought it was a broader idea which is what if there were just CNCF projects and then there were tags in the Kubernetes label sense rather than the tag sense applied to them that said this project is diverse maintainership. This project has a security badge and so on because right now there is such a requirement that it's going to be true that they meet all of the requirements. And Richard, what you were saying there there will be times where a graduated project it's not going to need archival, it won't want archival but it may no longer meet the requirements that otherwise a graduated project could be set out. And so its options effectively are demoted back to incubation which requires a huge effort then if it meets those requirements again. Or just have an approach whereby you don't meet this requirement and it makes me a bit more fine grained as to what the parameters are for a project. So I think badging is an interesting concept. The motion I think is also however I want to ensure that we understand what the value of doing that would be for a project because there is a lot of benefits and value that projects get at certain levels from the foundation and the motion would be achieved in what is going on. I think badging is very interesting. It allows us to provide better visibility and transparency to potential adopters around the state of the project. There may be some adopters that don't necessarily maintain our diversity very high. They just want to ensure that it's active and it's moving forward. For us in the TUC we want to ensure that the project has enough maintainership both in that they can collectively and collaboratively drive the direction forward so that there is no single entity that can change the direction of the project on their own and that's kind of defined in governance and we allow projects to do that. We also want to ensure that if something were to happen, if maintainers want to take a vacation because everybody would love to take a vacation in open source, they can do so and step away and the project can move forward for an extended amount of time and they can still receive commits and they are not relying on a single person or two or three individuals to carry the entire weight of its progress moving forward. I think there are some elements that are useful. I think the annual report concept is excellent but what would we consider kind of like health and activity for those? Dawn and then Josh, I think I got that order right. One of the things we should talk about with respect to archiving projects in particular is security vulnerability. This is one of the things we focus on in archiving projects. That VMware for example is if the project has a bunch of security alerts that they are not fixing and not releasing fixes for, then we look at whether a project should be archived. I think that the security status of a project is pretty important because what we don't want is that they are sitting out there with security vulnerability as a CNC. I think you've been in your business for a while. That's what you do. That's what we think about. I want to make sure I heard there was background noise that was coming in. The security vulnerability. To make sure I understood correctly, your consideration for security activities associated with the project, their ability to make sure all their dependencies that are reported to them have a good response window. Did I understand that correctly as a consideration? Yes, absolutely. Okay, thanks. I think that is definitely that hit some for me. Josh? Since we started talking about what the motion would mean, I think we need to really look very differently at incubating sandbox projects than we do for graduated projects. I feel like for graduated projects the CNCF has an obligation to our users to the users and stuff to try to keep graduated projects stable and current and available. Unless they are sort of naturally obsolescent, if you follow me. Let's stop using them. Sure, let's talk about archiving them. But as long as there is a user base that depends on that graduated project you don't generally get to graduate unless there is one. The first effort of the CNCF at the graduate level needs to be how can we rescue this project not demoting it to incubate it. I think that should be a truly exceptional turn of events for that. For a project going from incubated to sandbox, I think that is something we can talk about. Because it is after all incubating and that's kind of a possibility. Adam had asked in chat what is the criteria for making a project inactive and looking at the dashboard. There are five projects that are currently inactive which is fairly accurate. It's essentially as Amy stated anything that hasn't had activity for 120 days. Again, that's looking purely at GitHub and Git commits. It's not always a strong indicator. I was spending some time this morning actually looking at one of those to try to understand what's going on with the project. We do lose a lot of history when we're relying solely on Git and Git versioning and all those commits that have been happening over time. We need a better indicator there. Richie. I would phrase it maybe a little bit differently. I think having X amount of time in 120 days seems good as one of the possible triggers for deeper scrutiny is probably a reliable approach. Not as the sole trigger but basically if you do not meet X amount of metrics or if you do meet X amount of metrics that's when or a mix of positive and negative statements is when we trigger a more manual approach which would initially probably be TUC and or tags reaching out and just saying hey are you okay. But if someone has plenty of activity and contribution graphs are always stable over years and everything or even growing maybe we can just not have a deeper review of that project. I mean Kubernetes we all agree probably we don't need to do an in-depth analysis on if the project is going to go away next week or Prometheus or whatever like we know we don't have to. There was some discussion in chat. Don identify that open metrics as a standard and we've talked in the past about how depending on what kind of project it is if it's a standard or not their activity is going to look very different. So that might be an occasion where having badging or some other labeling associated with project is enough of a good indicator that this one might be fine but we should still look. Craig also followed up in chat with when external parties or adopters or other entities who are not the maintainers of our project are seeking to have a project marked in active but the maintainers don't and there are probably occasions where and it's not just this particular case where the maintainers just are moving at a different pace than what we're used to seeing and this for me I would expect the tag or the TOC to re-engage with the project to talk to the maintainers because they're the ones that are responsible for owning the commits and moving the project forward and engaging with them to understand kind of where they're headed regardless of any of the external factors then that kind of brings us back to the discussion of what is considered healthy and active what sorts of indicators do we have in place for that. Ricardo asked around having an annual report be a requirement for graduated projects I think that is still on the table here what other thoughts do folks have because I'm hearing a lot of very good ideas but we haven't actually talked about what some of those indicators are we're talking more around the process and that's fine but I'm curious for individuals that are maintainers or have been involved in the maintenance of projects how do you view your own activity and health? Do we have any maintainers on the call? That's a good question. Yes and I've been quiet in thinking there's lots of maintainers here so does a different maintainer besides me have thoughts on this? I mean I would say that for the most part looking at the health of a project I would look to understand issues and resolution of those issues and look to understand releases like are we actually moving those issues or things that are found in the project toward a release and releasing things that are fixed. These are the things that I usually judge the health of a project on. I would also say it has to do with where the the maintainers are in managing their future it's one thing to manage for the code but you have to wonder who's coming behind you because as I look at the CNCF over time if I go back four and five years and I look at who maintainers are in general now versus back then you'll see some people who are the same but you're going to see a lot of transition and so how do they for example manage that transition and change in addition to how are they managing and some things you're going to get more issues and stuff coming in than you're ever going to be able to react to look at Kubernetes and actually I'll echo Don's statement about another health metric is the security impact if somebody opens a security issue or if they're dealing with some kind of a way of dealing with security issues that's also an indicator of health because it usually comes after the project is actually already in a reasonable place for the most part in a security response the mechanism is really important Kathy and then I have a comment I think actually I think Ricardo raised the question whether we would like the project to have annual report actually I think that's a good idea you know and if the annual report includes some indicators health indicators of the project right you know like security vulnerabilities which was raised by Don before and also some like the activity level maintainers etc and then you know if that report we see some issues I think it's better to combine that with the annual review or we can have I think we need to give a chance for the apartment maintenance to explain if we see some issues why those issues and then we can decide what to do I also agree with John's comment we need to treat the graduated project differently than sandbox or incubating because once we approve those project to be a graduated project I think there will be quite some users using it so we need to put in extra I think payer effort to make sure those project should not go to the archive you know that status there was also a question in chat around whether or not how long it takes to review and close out PRs or issues is a good indicator from a recent discussion I had with one of the companies that does security projects for projects it's not always a good indicator of activity there are some vulnerabilities or design flaws that do exist within projects that just take an extremely long amount of time to get resolved and require a lot of individuals involvement so leveraging kind of the time that a PR has been open isn't always a good indicator same thing with issues it could also be that the project set their roadmap and they're going to work on those issues that are defined first and foremost because it's entirely up to them to prioritize what work it is that they would like to do Nikita had a good suggestion or observation around what Kubernetes currently does and potentially re-leveraging some of that prior art I like the idea of a maintenance mode for projects that are they've kind of capped on the amount of voracious activity that's going on within the project and so we will see kind of activity start to stabilize so having maybe a badge associated with maintenance mode for projects is also a good indicator to help reduce the amount of potential false positives that come up in an annual report Ricardo had a good suggestion on coming up with indicators for each level yep I think we were going to we're going to go down that path as well as looking at automating the detection of those indicators so I think we're on agreement around that one Josh added around metrics or what triggers the TOC member investigating I think that's still up for discussion so we still need to get into the specifics and I think we can probably do that maybe offline or if we have time later on the next question that I have for everyone here is who's this information going to be for and who's responsible for doing something about it so I think we have a combination of a lot of really good ideas that need to be pulled together into some different options that we can start exploring but I want to know who so in addition to the TOC looking at the activity of projects what about tags what about other maintainers what about adapters they're going to be looking for different sets of information Richie three points so far for who I think TOC and project maintainers primarily maybe also tags who does it I somewhat strongly believe CNCF staff the reason why I believe this and why I don't think this is something which should be at least led by the tags as the unfortunate one who did three full due diligence as part of a little bit of a test balloon within type observability there is a lot of strong opinions and a lot of politics and sometimes even perf and promotions and raises and everything attached to projects that is to moving levels and in particular to being removed I would dare say I don't think it is realistic to to expect all tags acting completely the same and as such you will have some element of tag shopping for the more lenient ones or the more aggressive ones and all of those things I don't think it is healthy and I don't think it's fair to to offload all of this onto the tags at least unless it is supportive and I don't think it would be as much administrative in which case I somewhat strongly believe CNCF staff would be better suited okay and to ensure comment on that is captured Craig had mentioned that that very point around there's a lot that's tied into moving levels that impact a lot of people's livelihoods and their abilities that's why he had suggested removing them or at least having a conversation but that's scheduled for the fall Ricardo so I was just I think that this should be for adopters and in users I think this information is very very useful I had a question for Craig which was if he was suggesting to add badges in addition to the maturity levels or just drop in the levels completely but he already answered in the chat and the concern there we should also ask end users what they're using these maturity levels for because it's kind of a stamp on the project and it's quite kind of useful to have these levels right now if we have a lot of indicators like browsing through the project might be a bit more complicated so yeah maybe maybe we need to ask the end users as well what they see the benefit of the levels and adding badges is what they could bring I think it's a great idea definitely has value for end users the current levels right now and I think that's a worthwhile conversation to have in that working group that we've requested a tag contributor strategy so if you're interested in the moving levels discussion and how potentially that could be changed and shifted to provide a more healthy ecosystem with projects and a positive experience for all of our project adopters and tags as well please check out that if someone has a handy idea I'd appreciate you dropping it in the chat for everyone to follow up on so I'm hearing that badging has a potential value add here for understanding what's currently going on with projects hearing definitely a yes to an annual reporting mechanism that needs to be driven by the level that a project exists in whether or not it's sandbox incubation or graduation and that graduated projects definitely need to be treated different and I think that Josh's point that it should be a rescue effort for them is pretty spot on and that's kind of the behavior mechanism that the TOC has been following with some of these projects as we are alerted to them but that is a reactionary mode we need to be a little bit more proactive on some of those indicators I think my next question for everyone is one, do you have any other observations or any of the gotchas that we're not seeing here and then two what do we want to do next with this we've had a lot of really good ideas we need to start moving them together thanks Don for posting that in the chat how do we want to move forward we'll provide a quick reminder to everyone that I understand that we are all busy but if this is something we really care about we do need an individual or several individuals to kind of step up and champion this work Richie? I as part of my TOC responsibility I have a project which I'm a little bit doubtful about so it might lead to archivo so I'm also happy to to look at all the policies and provide or do a PR and lead the public discussion Richie that's interested Josh what's the definition of the work I mean we've had a lot of discussion here but I'm not actually clear on what the next steps are yep that's a good question and kind of driving a little bit more of the one that I was trying to get at so in my mind the way that I see this right now is I've taken several notes I have a Google doc that I'm just consolidating things into and I will eventually clean it up and share it in the TOC channel for everyone to observe the next steps for me are taking all of the feedback in the discussion that we've had today some of the suggestions and ideas and figuring out how they can work cohesively together once that is done identifying what some of those indicators are and what's currently possible today with the tooling and the resources that are available to us as well as potentially identifying any modifications to the existing tools such as dev stats visibility kind of workflows how this all is intended to work and then from there going through a public review and comment on whether or not the process that we're going to define here works whether or not the indicators is also good that may require engaging with the end user and the adopters to understand what they're looking for it may require engaging with all of the tags to make sure that they are invested in understand what their roles and responsibilities are in this process if we need to define that for them and also making it available and helping maintainers understand kind of what are their expectations for this how do they go and view that information this is not a small project I'm happy to help on the end user part as well to make sure that we get feedback we need okay so I've got Richie for kind of like the process and the policy bits I've got Ricardo for user engagement who's super passionate about indicators we've got 24 folks on this call and I know that there are a lot more individuals that couldn't make it I mean I'll be working with somebody on indicators but we need other people on this and ideally a TOC member who's interested in that yep I agree so it's the definition of this just to look at the different indicators for the health of a project and figure out how to derive them from the project itself again I'm still struggling to understand like I feel like we need at least a version we need at least another rendition of the document or the notes that you're putting together so that we can break this up into things that could be taken on because at the moment it feels like it feels pretty nebulous to take on any part of it without having some structure around it that's fair come up with a list of indicators of the tasks that's one of them so since we're kind of stalling on what it is that can happen we can start with dons and indicators as kind of the starting point what I can do is I will go through and I will type a ball of my notes come up with an outline for what needs to happen and the individuals that are interested or have expressed interest in these areas I will go ahead and tag them on the issue hopefully I have your GitHub handled because this will modify this issue to keep track of this kind of activity and don since you're the one that filed the issue I want to make sure that I have your concurrence to modify it to reflect all of these changes yeah please absolutely okay so what I'll do is I'll take the action I'll go ahead and write up the summary for what it is that we're looking to do since I've been around here I'll tag the individuals that expressed interest on it and I'll make sure that this is available in the TOC channel for anyone to stop by as well as the tag chairs channel for any of the tag chair members that were unable to participate today if you want to pair on working through that I'm happy to do that that would be fantastic Duffy thank you I will take you up on that offer and Ricardo I see that you are happy to help provide feedback on the list of indicators moving so I'll add you to that group as well alright any other thoughts opinions perspectives on this we've got a few more minutes left we don't have anything else on our agenda so I will tentatively and cautiously open the floor up to any last minute questions that folks may have do we have an idea of how the badges thing would work I'm actually kind of interested in understanding would that be what do you think or are we looking at how that would integrate with tags and tags would associate if they pass a particular set of criteria they would associate a badge with a project or how are we looking at that I think that is so yet to be determined okay it sounded like maybe there was already some work there but I wasn't sure Craig is the one that had suggested the badging sorry when I said tag before I meant tag as in label as opposed to tag as in technical advisory group I wasn't trying to associate as in you may have more than one of them whereas today you currently only have one label that says okay um Richie had another thought make them key value pairs not one-dimensional labels alright if there's nothing else I will let everyone go I really appreciate you all taking the time to join us on this discussion hopefully we can begin to move forward on it but I understand that I'm the roadblock for that right now so I will take the time go ahead and get this written up and work with Duffy one other admin's trivia note we are extending sandbox voting for another day to be able to make sure that we're capturing votes there's been some kind of some drift between where votes are actually going so it'll be open through Wednesday cool okay come by if you've got any questions about that happy to be able to help on that but we're extending for another day just to make sure that we are capturing everything it's a question when is the next sandbox application review meeting probably like June ish okay I will follow up with like the more direct like notes for when those are coming up okay thanks thank you thanks so much everyone we really appreciate your time today we look forward to seeing you next time thank you thank you