Yeah, yeah. It's a bubbleist bubble, just like it's the gateless gate, right? Yeah, yeah. The veilless veil, the gateless gate, yeah. Wow. Gosh, that's such a fascinating, yeah, it is, and because it comes right back to what you were talking about with the simultaneous. Yeah. Hey, everyone, welcome to Simulation. I'm your host, Atlas. I'm super pumped for this episode. We are going to be talking about non-duality and awakeness. We have Fred Davis joining us on the show. Hi, Fred. Hello, Atlas. Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here. Me too. I'm so, so excited for this conversation. I've been a huge fan, and it's been great, yeah, it's been great to be able to take in all of the different ways that you're pointing to the one end from the different faces of the mountain. And, yeah, that's been an analogy that we've been using a lot on our show as well. And it's helpful because we sort of get one of the ways, aspects of the pointing from one of the pieces of video or books, and then we get another one from another piece of video or books. And then that sort of, for each of us, is our own unique style of that finding or awakeness of that diamond necklace that's already around our neck. Yeah. So, for those that don't know, Fred Davis is a non-dual, spiritual, unteacher, five-time author, creator of the Living Method of Spiritual Awakening and AwakeningClarityNow.com. And you can find that link in the bio below as well as his Amazon author page and his YouTube page, which has a lot of great free content. Fred, let's start off with this. This has been something interesting for me that I'm really looking forward to hearing how you feel about. So this idea of true simultaneity, being something like in the most layered approach to this, we can say that there's the non-duality. There's the ineffable. And it just is. And it's this appearance happening. Cool. And then there's another layer, and that's like the dualistic concession, which is something like there's suffering and there's well-being. And we should eradicate as much planetary suffering and maximize planetary abundance and well-being and flourishing and prosperity and whatnot. So I'm curious, there's eight billion of us, and each of us are going through our own unique sort of piercing the veil, God realization to that diamond necklace around our neck. And so if we hold all eight billion perspectives simultaneously in that range of where people are at in this sort of spectrum. How do you take an idea like that true simultaneity of holding all of this at once? Well, it's the obviously it's not a character's ability to do so. What the same thing that's looking through these eyes is the same thing that's looking through those eyes. You just met my wife Betsy and it's the same thing that's looking through her eyes. And I just heard my dog Willie Markin and it's the same thing that's looking through his eyes simultaneously. Yes. Now, remember one time I had a session with somebody and I happened to say you were the salmon swimming upstream. I just came out and he said, I can't see as a salmon. I can't see as why can't I see as the salmon? Why can't they see as Willie? Yeah, that's right. I can't see as Willie and I said, well, you can see what's going on just like you can see what's going on behind the camera in this room and all that and I said, but you're just not using that unit to do it. You're using this one to do it and you're using, you are using the fish to see as the fish, but all of that is coming to you. Now, what we hit here is we hit something that just jumped right on past, right on past logic. Because what we're really talking, even the 8 billion, we can't, we, there's no way the mind can really get 8 billion. And then we look at the universe and we see that it is, it's either endless, limitless or expanding depending on which scientist you talk or both, I guess, depending on which scientist you talk to, whatever. The idea is these little things in our head, right, these brains, I use this to show them.   And it can't hold infinity, which is what it's always trying to do. It can only use that brain to behold infinity, and it's quite a difference. So it's not a matter of understanding this, but I always tell people I'm not the answer guy, I'm the question guy, and that people will say, Fred, would you please explain that to me? I guess I will have, you know, paid some money to talk to me, and I know it's very disappointing when I tell them, well, I can't explain you because I don't understand it. But that's the truth, I don't understand. You can't put this together, I get it. I know that, that I am this, I know that this is not that that I know that I am not other than this, but I also know I'm not limited to this. And I'm certainly not limited to one of these. But that has been the programming is, you know, right, right, our parents begin to train us Fred, Mama, Fred, Daddy, Fred, Fred's room.  The brainwashing goes on and we finally somewhere between 19 months and three years, we entered that agreement. We entered that laugh. Yeah, this is actually the key topic that I've listed as well that I want to talk about. What you just said there was really resonant that the this, this, this, this, it's okay to laugh. I know it's the Cosmic Joe. It is. I know it's Lila, right? The divine play. That's it. That's it, right? Yeah. The, the three pounds, the most egoic three pounds. It's so funny. Yeah. Arrogant. Yeah. Arrogant. Arrogant. Yeah. Arrogant three pounds. It's so funny. There's, there's this, there's this impulse is like to, to go in all the way to our source and to know that and to have that be, although at this non-dual level, it's this ineffable mystery. At the same times, there's this seeking impulse to be like, hold all of infinity at once, but it is just this, it's the beholding of this expression of that. That is the sort of, it's like in the eye, it's the, you know, the, the, like you were saying, it's the one observer and the, that shared among us and, and that the pupil, the pupil itself is that shared component. And then the iris is the unique coloration of that expression, the appearance of the expression. And so maybe before we get into some of that youthful stuff, how does the, how do these like kind of you child like explain like I'm five analogies, how do they resonate when we say like the pupil is like the eye of God and the iris is like the unique coloration or. And I can actually talk about that so it's, it would be, but I can explain my view of that. Yes. Yeah. And my view of things is you were talking about the, the necklace around our necks, but you probably know the story of Andrew's net. And just in case anybody out there doesn't let me tell it very quickly. Andra is the, is the head of all the Hindu theology mythology. It's the, he's the King God, if you will. And Andrew was there before anything was there. And Andrew had a necklace like you're talking about. And, or he had, and he took it.  And he took that net and he flung it out into the void. And when he did, that all the stars appeared. And in the, that's the way it looks from here. But from the next view, what you see is that there's a net and at every juncture of a net, like a fishing net, right? Every juncture of that fishing net, there's a jewel. Yes, exactly. Just like, just like Alex Gray's net of being his visual that he has, I'll, I'll embed that here for, for people. Okay. It's super and I'll also send it to you. It's, it's a really good visualization of what we're describing. Yeah, yeah. Good. Yeah, I have some visuals. I have some artists rendering of something approaching that idea here in my desk that I show people sometimes. So the, the thing is, is that when we look, what we want to do is we want to look at every jewel. What can, what is it that every jewel can see. And what I'm going to suggest that. Every jewel. That each jewel it sees. It can see every other jewel, but it can't see itself. The eye can't see itself. And there's a, so each one of these jewels has a zillion reflections. But nowhere with any in any of these jewels is there a center thing. Is there, is there anything in the middle? It's the jewel itself. Meaning that this happening. This is the jewel, right? And I can't actually find. I like to report. I'm very conservative in what I report outlandish too. But what I can truthfully report to you, I can't really tell you that I am, I can't tell you I'm not, but that's really out of my pay grade. What I can tell you is that there's a sense of being here. That much I can report, whatever it is that's saying, I, I know it's lost in the loop, but there is a, there is a sense of being here. Yeah. And, but what I've noticed in my inquiries is that the sense of something doesn't necessarily equate with the truth of something. In other words, I had a, I had a sense this morning it was going to rain like crazy and it's dry as a bone out there. So that's a wasted sense. And it's a sense that, that did not indicate anything that was true, but it was a sense. And what I'm saying is that there's a sense of being, but that's not the same thing as stating. I am, or there is being, there's a sense of being. That's it. That's as far as we can go down that path. That is the, that, that sense of being. Is the last thing we see. Prior, it's the first thing we see out of the non-dual gate. And it's the last thing we see in the non-dual gate. In the, as we move back and forth between those two. I am as thought to be that, but I'm saying there's something deeper and more primal than I am, which is sense of being. And there's something below that sense of being, but I had no idea what. It's, it's, I want to know it. But what I can know is that I'm it. I can't, I know I can't not be it. I can't know it from afar because there's only it. It can't, it's like oneness looking for oneness with what everybody's doing in the seeking community, right? One is looking for, I can't wait to merge with oneness. Yeah. The fish is an ocean. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Exactly. So what is there outside of oneness that could merge with oneness? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I like how you bring in this really important visualization of this, this net of being and how you also mentioned this, this just sense of, of presence. This, that simply is this happening now. In that visualization. It's really profound where we see that every single one of those in the net, every single one of those intersecting points is the diamond that is around each of our necks. Right. And then that, that source light shines through that unique diamond and refracts as a unique color combination in that, in that iris. And so that's, yeah. And so I'm not, I'm not agreeing or disagreeing. It's a theory that I know nothing about. Talking about the ineffable. Yeah. I just don't know about the iris and pupil, but that's fine. That's your, that's your line of, of study. I'm perfectly amiable with it. It's just an analogy. It's just a child like analogy, because the pupil itself is just that dark. Right. That same shared dark across all eight billion, but the iris is uniquely colored across. Okay. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. It sounds like you found that. And the diamond that's around each of our necks is, it's the, that diamond is a diamond across all of ours, but then it's refracting a unique expression or, yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. So what, what it amounts to is that because in non duality too often, and I now agree, I'm just going to agree what you're talking about with the, the I thing I was kind of lost there. But the, with non duality, we come to sense that there is we, we come to sense that there's something and there's our sense initially is that, but we're not connected to it. That's the idea because we thank ourselves to be a separate being over here, not part of Ender's net, but a separate being a distinct being. And we think that we are disconnected from source, if you will, or whatever. We just began to get that idea as we move into non duality. And then if we're not careful, the easiest move to make is it's important once we get past the witness stage, because there's, there's witnessing, but I can't find a witness, right? I've looked and I just can't. And so I would say there's, there is witnessing that much I can attest to. But as we move, as we become to see that the whole whiz, the whole concept of a looker or a watcher or whatever, that that's really just another thought in the end. And so there is, there's a, there's a few things that we can do. There is, there's a, there's a feeling like I can come to know that. But who's that I that's saying that? I've not found that I have done it with hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people. And none of us have ever found that. Right? I've had a few people that did report that they found an eye and they didn't wake up. I've had the people that were with me who did find the eye, which was almost everybody did find it and did come to, did come. They came to see that there was no eye. Yes. Go ahead. It's probably a good time to bring in this. An analogy that we also use for this part and it includes the, the youthful component that we were mentioning earlier as well, which is that. When, when the child. When the infant comes in to, to the world. Yes. That in a sense, it already is the ocean. It already is absolutely. And that programming, especially that like around 18 months, there's that object permanence that kicks in. There's these layers of identity. If it's not, if it's conscious parents, then the, then there will be no drop that forms. And, but if the parents are unconscious and if, and especially because the civilization itself is unconscious, that then what happens is that these layers like onion layers are like the drop itself, this bubble as you describe also in your teaching that it forms. And then the bubble, we can call that the egoic contraction of energy that separate entity is what ends up seeking because it's the drop that doesn't realize that it's in that it's in the ocean. Whereas if you take like the, the Kogi mamas, you know, or whatnot, you never undergo an experience of being anything other than the ocean. Yeah, right. And so, so, so now what usually happens is you get these like, let's say 25 year olds or whatever, and they're like, what's the nature of reality? I'm not just this egoic contraction. Am I, I'm not a biological finite creature. And so then they go seeking and seeking and, and there's more and more direct paths now where you don't have to do 30 years and at a monastery. And so, so what happens is that that in the analogy, the drop gets, you know, that bubble gets popped. And that's what usually what people say when they're like, Oh, everything is oneness, you know, it's all unity. Oh, I get that. And so then there's that stage. So most of the approximations with things like spiral dynamics and David Hawkins levels of consciousness as well is that there's approximately 85 or so percent of civilization. That's living in a state of some, of some sort of like egoic contraction of identity and then about maybe 14 or so percent actually pop that and experience the oneness or the unity. But then what happens is there's the recognition that when you're the ocean, this observer or the witness or the I am or the self is shared. So you recognize that we are the ocean that is experiencing the waves and the waves are the thoughts, feelings, emotions, perceptions, sensations, that type of stuff. That's like the clouds in the sky. And so all these different analogies for it. And then there's the last and there's about 14% or so of people there. And then this last layer, which is like the 1% layer, which is what you can say is the absolute or the ineffable, which is when you sort of recognize that even. There is no agent. There's no attributes whatsoever. I don't know if this the dream or the illusion or the appearance or what, what, how do you feel 14 or 15% maybe a little high for even the oneness for even the oneness. For not for. As many people wake up, I think most people wake up at some point in their lives. But it's a brief passing through that walk right through it. You know, people are seekers who have an awakening and they say, well, I know that can't be it. I'm going to keep going, keep going looking for it. So what I have a saying that says that. Many awaken, but few clear. So as far as for making the jump from, I'm a guy to. To, I'm. Well, I just, there's just this. You know, the first thing I did was I just came up your or even to oneness that there's just one this. And. And I had a very successful oneness teaching for a couple of years. And then a whiteness pull the rug out from underneath me and it was like, Oh, this is a provisional truth, but it's not the actual truth. And so this. Experiencing experiencing oneness consciously. Right. So I call that. just a weakness.   Here's the bubble of self-reflection. There's a sense. I had a wakening like that in 1992 and it was absolutely valid, but it was not long for this world because shortly after I came to realize that I was no thing, I began to be very impressed with anything that could come to know that it's no thing. So in other words, it became like, oh, I got it. And the question is, well, who are you talking about? Yeah, right. So it's and the egoic principle comes in and claims that seeing for its awakening. Yeah. And then ego is left in the unenviable position of trying because one tastes and then you just want another. People that email me all the time. And these are spiritual addicts and they don't know. And they think, please, I just need one glimpse, just one glimpse. But I had a friend of mine that owned a store and stuff and he took some cocaine one night, years ago in the 80s. And he said it changed the whole man. But the first thing I noticed that the new man wanted was more cocaine. And that's the way that we are with spiritual experiences. Just want one until I get one and then I want another. And we can actually move beyond all that, where it's unnecessary to have what people consider to be altered state experiences or whatever. But very few of us will move past a very small percentage, I think I could be wrong. I actually don't know a damn thing. And socrates and I are agreed. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we're just we're just talking words are coming out. And they're saying what they're saying, but there's no one saying and no one listening to them. I'm really glad to have all one of us here, right? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So there there can be the ones who really penetrate who go beyond consciousness, because there's consciousness for many people as the I mean, and I understand that it's the difference in what you mean when you say consciousness and all that. But I do find it very confusing because consciousness saying, you know, what are you looking for? I'm looking for consciousness. Well, what are you looking with? I'm looking for with consciousness. Yeah. So so we can move beyond that. And but it's not what you can notice right now is there's a sense of being everybody that's watching this can just notice that there's a sense of being. There's a sense of aliveness here. There's a sense of presence. And when I 20 years ago, and I was listening to Edgar Tully, I thought that a sense of presence was a prince. I love God's presence or something else's presence was what I was supposed to be noticing. I never dreamed it was my presence. And so there is I would like whatever speaking ego would like to understand this. As we've said, it can't understand it. It's prior to understanding and we would the sense of being is here. But the sense of being that I can confess that there's a sense of being but I can't confess what that is. Because this sense of being, if you try to describe it, you'll find that you can't because it's prior to whatever you are is prior to language. Yeah. Yeah. So language comes in and it's all over and that includes these lies that I'm telling you. But I'm folks I'm lying to the very top of my ability.   These are really strongly considered and God approved lives. The best we can use symbols to try to point the ineffable. Yeah. Yeah, because what we don't know about you. But when I woke up and to the truth, and it was like and the first thing I noticed was well, there's nothing to talk about. I know. But the second thing I noticed, and this is just kind of a job, but but then shortly thereafter, what I noticed was that the trying to do so the attempt to talk about this was simply the most exquisite thing on the planet. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Hence what we're doing here right now. Yeah. Yeah. It's true. Yeah. It's just yeah. There's nothing better. Yeah.  And it's just like it's like taking a shower or bath. It's just warm shower. Just that's beautiful. That's a great way to put it. Like a warm shower here. Yeah. Yeah. Or like a loving hug from yes, that's right. From mom. Yeah, something like that. Yeah. Yeah. This is so, so, so well said. This is great. Another sort of way to just briefly touch on the the spiritual addict part is the the I just like how Tony Parsons calls them spiritual lollipops. Yeah. Right. You know, just like it's like on the next. Yeah, the next one. But there's also the like what you mentioned with Socrates, who was called the, you know, the wisest man who's man that happens because he knew he knew nothing. Yes. And that's why Nisargats the Maharaj also, you know, said that the love is everything and being everything knowing every being that and the wisdom is knowing that you're nothing and then your life flows between the two as well. But his quote was Nisargats is my core teacher. And what he said was I breathe in and I'm everything I breathe out and I'm no thing in between those two of my life turns, which is just so beautiful because that really addresses what you were talking about earlier with the simultaneity of things. Yes. Because we can tend to go when we when we come to see the truth, we've been living as we've been living as a human being all of our lives. No, I knew I was Fred Davis. And I knew that a Fred Davis look just like this until I was about 52. And somewhere around there, it was discovered that I was not a that was not a Fred Davis after all and that there was not only was not a Fred Davis here, there never had been one here. There is that there's only this. But we can when we say only this, we can have a tendency to feel that we're talking about manifestation. And I would say in my teaching, honestly, consciousness, God and manifestation are synonyms. Yep. And the but awakeness is that which is prior to all of those things. Awakeness is it's unnameable, but I'm just going to try that so exquisite that it is the potentiality. It's by it's by its very absence that there is room for all this presence. Yeah, the silence between the notes of music, the silence between the notes. That's exactly right. Because we can we have a tendency to think we disregard silence, we disregard space. Yeah, yeah, we're all caught up in the content of this rising. Wow. But what now will come next? Right? What what will happen next? But I have very little to you. You can you can take your time to find it. Oh, you got it? Oh, yeah. Okay. Oh, cool. And this comes about because what we think is we think that space is just this annoying thing that is in between everything and everything. But when we start to looking at oneness, when we start really looking at once, objectively, then I can't help but notice I mean, how many spaces do you count right? Mm hmm. Why? Mm hmm. Space is not what holds everything apart from everything else. Space is what holds is the glue that holds everything together. Yeah, yeah, beautiful.  And that's called the Rubin vase, I believe. Okay. And so it's a Rubin vase. So which of these is true? Exactly. Oh, yeah, both are neither. Either way, you want to put it, but you can't say one or the other. Because it just doesn't work like that. And this doesn't work like that. Because we're we're living is relativity. And everything exists only by comparison, something else. Like you're pretty sure I'm the Fred Davis because I've seen this and that. The other thing is, you're pretty sure that this isn't Fred. So it's very easy to to home in on this part and say, oh, there's Fred. And the rest of that is not Fred. But there's no opposite to you. There's just you. There's no, it's non duality already. Yeah. And we can tend to get lost in the idea that I'm just the vastness. Oh, I'm just the vastness who cares about the unit is what I call the bodies. Who cares about the unit? But we are not merely the vastness. Nor are we merely the little man. We're both. So there is the experience from the from the absolute that obviously relativity just doesn't matter. But relativity is our experience. And we honor it. We do not honor it. We do so it that there will be suffering will ensue. But it's not that we are this one, or we are that one. It's there's not a this or that. There's just the nameless. And there's no opposite to that nameless. And so when we but that nameless is both duality, the sense of dual the dualistic and the and non dualistic at the same time. In other words, exactly. Right? Yeah. So there's this experience where obviously, for me, for me, obviously, this is all me. This is there's nothing but me. But then this is me too. Because this is an experience. The thread in a story continues. Thank goodness. And this is what happened, you know, 1000 plus years ago was the was it was how do we put into us into one symbol? How do we put the non dual and the dual into one symbol? And that's what you just pulled up a moment ago the yin and yang. Yeah. And, and yeah. So and that's what you were explaining from multiple faces of the mountain was just at a moment to go in. You gave the Ruben vase example. And there's a couple places that I'd like to just go back to a little bit of moment to go. You were saying that there's kind of there's these two things that that were great that you mentioned that sort of what happens when there's this Satori or or Moksha or Nirvana, whatnot, that the realization as you quote, you quote Lao Tzu a lot, you know, we do as well. You do realize that the Tao that can be named is not the eternal Tao. And and Lao Tzu also said that those who know don't talk and those who talk don't know. And that's another way to put it as well. And so you learn that both there's nothing to talk about, like you said, but then the second thing is that you learn that the attempt to try to talk about the ineffable is the warm, the warm shower. It is life worth living. It is because and we basically what we do is we we play. We play when we talk when we when we attempt all I can see at the ineffable. It's a divine play. Yeah, it's that lila when we're when we're attempting using these symbols to play with that ineffable. It's it is the warm shower. It is that hug. That's what it that's what it feels like. Yeah, someone and will excuse them on technical errors, but someone wants to put it very sweetly when they said that to talk about this with another someone else on your the same level and so to speak. I mean, someone else who's seen the truth that that is the embodiment of it. Yeah, yeah. That's such a good way to put it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, we call it tennis is another way to yeah, it's it's tennis and yeah.  I know somebody hits a volley and the ball is just so interesting. I don't have any interest in it. Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Nor do I have the power to hit it, but it's a fascinating ball. I'll tell you that. Yeah. Wow. Like one of the core potentially we could say if we want to just most beautiful aspects to the appearance is when the tennis players themselves are really strong advanced maybe, you know, world-class level tennis players where it is the most beautiful where the game of tennis that's being played is so close to the ineffable. Yeah, it it it bumps your game to play with a great tennis player. Yes. And I think that this is the reason that Nizgidato said that the only thing that was really necessary for awakening was to spend time in the company of Sages. Yes. And it doesn't mean it's actually gonna rub off, but if there's a good chance that you'll just there will be a falling in.  And right? It's we're actually this. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And in 2020, I spent a lot of time on just full time dedicating myself to truth, just nonstop as a full time job and studying these geniuses that have lived and died before us, and not just spiritual ones, but also the scientific ones, the engineer ones, the inventor ones, because it's also interesting to see their patterns as well. And so the sort of satori that was just a little about a month ago now, that just just, you know, it creates that is probably a good segue into that where there is no longer an atlas, right? Actually, there's nothing there's no longer an atlas. It's the seeing that there never was. There was one. Yeah. Because that's a that's our problem is what will happen to Fred when Fred wakes up. Well, don't worry about it because Fred will never wait. Awaitness itself wakes up, doesn't it? Yeah. Awaitness wakes up to the fact that I've been looking for a noun. I've been looking for because they told me look for something that doesn't come and go and I went looking for some thing that doesn't come and go. Never dawned on me that the only that everything here comes and goes other than the space which holds it, right? And it's spaciousness that we're really talking about, not space in the outer space kind of way, but spaciousness. And that of course is what we really are. There's nothing can exist without this spaciousness. And but and and spaciousness is the mirror in which all the reflections appear. And this is a pair of reflections coming to have some high high-minded conversation about the mirror. Yeah, yes. Do you believe in mirrors? I'm not sure I believe in mirrors, said the said the reflection, but the reflection can't exist in the absence of a mirror. So it's coming to see, well, it's not that we come to see the truth. It's that the truth comes to see. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, man. And the game that the truth plays to come to see is so fascinating. Within this appearance, there is nothing else that I've ever encountered where there's an ability for a singularity to veil itself and then to pierce that veil. And that's like the coolest feature.  Yeah. It's good. It's just like my bubble of self-reflection. Well, there's no bubble there. Yeah. It's the bubbleist bubble. Just like it's the gateless gate, right? Yeah. Yeah. The valeless veil, the gateless gate. Yeah. Wow. Gosh, that's such a fascinating Yeah. It is. And because it comes right back to what you were talking about with the simultaneous. Yeah. Right? Yeah. We simultaneously experience, there's an experience of something that can only be reported as a gate. Yeah. Gateway. And it was it was just absolutely remarkable. But then it's recognized there's there's there's no gate to the guy. This must be the reason they call it the gateless gate is because there's no gate. Oh, how about that? We know, you know, when they said it was the gateless gate, it was like, what do they mean by that? Oh, okay. I want to get my teeth into that. I want to figure that out. But in fact, there was nothing complex about they were just saying, well, it's a gateless gate. What does that mean by that? Well, this is it. But it's so simple that these big complex brains of ours, they don't want to hear that. They want something to gnaw on. They want something to they want something that the brain can achieve. I'm so loving the valeless veil and the gateless gate. And my question slash thought to you around that would be something like yet simultaneously as we hold that, we also recognize that when we do the practices that are things like a Theravada Buddhism, silent 10 day meditation retreat, no talking, no eye contact, just going inward and making ourselves less reactive with the monkey mind and sort of gaining that real subtlety that that's sort of needed to be able to to understand things like this as well. That there are these, in a sense, there, whether you also, you know, read the Dauda Qing or the Old and New Testament or you take some entheogens, maybe some psilocybin to undergo some of this. Whatever these sort of faces are on the mountain in a sense at the same time, we recognize that the more sometimes of these different tastes that we have the, in a sense, the more robust of a lattice work that we have that enables us to better and better sort of recognize this, which is maybe this is one of the things that I feel about Neo Advaita specifically, that is it's beautiful in its direct pointing yet at the same time to somebody in a state of maybe an egoic level of a contracted energy in the bubble that there can also be like little the whole thing about the incremental path versus the sudden path and whatnot. So how do you feel as well about, while we talk about this valous veil and the gateless gate, that there are also this idea of sort of building up a nomenclature or lexicon, a concept framework, these types of things across these different perennial wisdoms? I think we've, I think we've had that confused up for a long time, confused for a long time and here's why I think that, is that we've been pointing toward is it this or is it like that? And it's not like this or that, it's this and that. So what we amount to is, is awakening an event or a process, it's both. It may not be a recognized event.   No, and right after that he went, oh I can't, because he had been, he's been a spiritual teacher and everything and gone around the world and this and that and the other. He just left out the know who you are part. But when he woke up, woke up, there was such context there that he just blew everything off the map, right? He just woke up and it was just thump. And it doesn't, you don't have to be a teacher for 30 years for that to happen, but it doesn't hurt, right? Or to be a speaker for 30 years, it doesn't hurt. But what we can notice about when we look at, let's say traditional Advaita compared to what we call Neo Advaita or Sudden Awakening and we look, go all the way back to Zen and China and it was like, you know, we had the Southern School and the Northern School. Northern people said it was an event. Southern people said it was a process. Anybody that I talked to has been Awakening for some time and with me, they come and they recognize this. And what they really recognize is not that they've been Awakening, but they really come to recognize that they are Awakeness itself. And that's the difference, because we talk about, I'm awake, but she's not or he's awake, but I'm not. But this awake, not awake thing, what's that? What's that? Oh, it's duality, isn't it? Yeah. So what we gave the analogy in one of your recent talks where you said that it's like you get out of bed in the morning, you're rubbing your eyes and opening up in somebody's there going, wake up. It's like, I'm already awake. Yeah. That's it. Right. Exactly. What shall I do to convince you that I'm awake? It's, and that's what I'd like to turn that on tables on that, and sometimes I'll ask people the, so is there any way, if you had to right now, and you had to convince me that you were not awake, how would you do that? Yeah. Yeah. We don't think about it, because we come at it from, we come at through the front door, which is, how can I be oneness? I mean, I'm just this little thing over here. Yeah. How can I be oneness? But when we come at it from being oneness, when this teaching, I only work with myself, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. This is what's happening here. Yeah. That oneness is talking to oneness, about oneness, because there's no one else to talk, and there's no other subject. Yeah. But here, the obvious is obvious. That's all. The obvious is always, is always, there's the ability to break through and see the obvious. And, you know, how does that work? We talk about, and I even talk about breakthroughs and breakthrough phrases and stuff like this, but it's, it's not breaking through. It's noticing that there's, that there's nothing to break through, that there's no, that there's no wall there, that we are not, we haven't reached the top of the mountain. There was never a mountain, and we're just walking along the beach with everything just flat as, right? And but we've been, we've been making up mountains, and we've been making up adventures about them. Would it be fair to say that there's, that both the simultaneity with the mountain and the beach are at the same time, as in the, the most non-dual is the beach, and then the, the dualistic concession is that there's this mountain? Yeah, okay. Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Cool. Right, I'm right with you. Okay. So, but we spend all of our time, put all of our attention on the mountain, put any time at all on the beach. What could, the ocean is your teaming with life and all this stuff, and we're like, ah, it's just water, man, and that this mountain is where, is what's really cool. And so we spend all of our times, all of our time caught up in the content of this arising, and instead of, what is it that is experiencing the content of this arising? Yeah. That's the only thing worth looking for, and you, you don't need to look for it, you just need to notice it. Yeah. Because I heard when I was coming along, you know, the, the seeker never wakes up, and I heard that, and I thought, now that's a good thing to know. So what I'm going to do then, I'm going to pretend to stop seeking, because you can't, you can't find it as long as you're looking for it. So I pretended to not, to not look for it in the hopes that somehow would trick God into showing herself, right? And, but I couldn't even fake it. It was just such a, I mean, it was just doomed to sink, to seek. That's what, I mean, I had no choice. I'm sure you didn't either. I mean, it just drove me. It drove everything. Yeah. Yeah. Right? It did. It told me what time I was going to bed at night, what time I was getting up in the morning, what I was going to do that day, and all of that. I mean, it was just this constant, please. Yeah. Right. And it's, it's going to be just like me right now, asking you. So Atlas, tell me, how do I get to the chair in my study? Yeah, this is funny. I like this one as well. Yeah.  Yeah. Yeah. Oh, thanks Atlas. I appreciate that. And I understand that I'm on board with that. But it's not my, just not my experience that I'm in my chair in my study. So what do you, what directions would you suggest now? Right? There's, there's, there's no, we just, there is no giving directions to here. Yeah. Yeah. That's, yeah, there you go. Yeah. There's no giving directions to here. And that's what everybody's asking for. Could you please direct me toward here? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I could. I could charge you money for it. Yeah. You sign up for my subscription service. That's right. Yeah. Yeah, it's here. Yeah. So many perverse incentives around that. Oh, I know. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So there's, there's two things. One of them is St. Francis of Assisi says that that which you seek is that which is seeking. That's correct. And then the other one is posted these a little while ago as well that Ramana Maharishi says that God is the subject. He is the seer. Don't concern yourself with objects that can be seen. Find out who the seer is. And then Punja says the desire for self-slash God realization is like an inner flame. One must kindle it and then fan it until it becomes a raging fire which consumes all one's other desires and interests. And well, and what I would say to that is he's right. If that's what that unit needs to do. Yeah. Yeah. Which is what it sounds like both of ours. Yeah. Had it. It just comes to mind. It is perfectly explains what where we were, but it doesn't explain everybody. So yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. These days I actually get quite a number of students.  So can you describe this so inherent, inherent wakefulness, but no clarity? What? Yeah. What does this mean? In other words, there's been an awakening event. And now the character has a memory of that awakening event. And it's a very, very detailed, deep sort of memory about something very much like a spiritual awakening. Okay. But a spiritual awakening can't be remembered because there's no one there to remember it. So it's a character's report on the tail end of some kind of experience where, wow, it was really different and for Fred. Yeah, yeah. But I have sometimes once in a while, I mean, I had people that will and I'm not doing private sessions now, but I did, I did them for a long, long time. And you stopped doing them. I didn't know that. Well, I did what I would come over run. And it's just too much of a physical burden for this old man. So I still am doing, I still meet with, I still meet with regular students and have something to call, I could call a continuing students program where I have a bunch of people that come and talk to me once a month. That's your son's song? It's with some people inside. No, there's a people who come and have one-on-one sessions with me once a month. These are people that I'm sort of caretaking. And I also, and then I have what I call now is the, this is a new development, which is the skillful means programs, which is, or series, which is, I do three series, I mean, three sessions in three successive Saturdays, but I'm doing it with 20 people instead of one. Okay. Right, because I just can't, the world would, the world would like more of Fred than there is Fred. And I keep moving the prices up and it just doesn't touch anything.  And it just got to be, I'd rather do it for a bunch of people. For a bunch of, yeah, yeah. And then field questions as well at the end. Yeah, the next two sessions of the following, the first session, the good news is, they don't get to talk. Because the biggest problem that I had in one-on-one awakening sessions was that everybody wanted to make sure that I understood their issue and where their special self was coming from. And I needed to know about this about their childhood and this about that. And they couldn't understand it for this and couldn't see it from that. So in other words, people would pay me a bunch of money to help them wake up my way. And they would come to me and what they were really wanting me to do is pay me a lot of money to wake them up their way. Yeah, yeah. Without noticing and I would sometimes point out, well, let's just, let's look here. We got, there's two of us here. One of us has been in, let's just say, a thousand awakening sessions. And the other one has been in, how many have you been in? A one? Who do you think we should be listening to? Yep, yep. Right? It's, they, they want to help. And I did the same thing. I did exactly the same thing.   I was awake when I, but I couldn't help it. It was Ajashanti. Oh my God. And I wanted, I wanted him to see just how awake I was. And that was actually more important than my question was for Ajashanti to notice that I was awake and all this. Wow. And I get that too. And, you know, so where, what you're really looking at, you're in the guise of asking the question, what the question you're really asking is, will you give me confirmation of my awakening? Yeah. And sometimes people come to me that I, right out the gate that I can see, and I can give them confirmation, but I never give confirmation. If it hasn't occurred. And most of the people in search of confirmation are not awake. Because what I noticed is that by the time you get confirmation, you don't really need it. It's nice to have it. It's nice to have a teacher say, okay, you got it this, that, and the other. And I've had a bit of that, but it, but it's unnecessary. Because you already know who you are. Yeah. So the confirmation of one empty unit to another empty unit. Yeah. Is of marginal value. Yeah, yeah. There's another component to what we were just talking about, which is the, it's probably the most important, at least in my understanding of what is happening here, which is that in the recognition of the tennis players that are doing at high levels, using symbols to play with the ineffable, we recognize that there's the simultaneity in that that there's this sort of non-dual beach as well as this dual mountain and that The experience of both, yes. Yeah. Yeah. And that this is sort of where the, the, we already are the diamond necklace around our neck. Only those that are ignorant seek what's already there. It sort of meets with the, well, what are we talking about with that diamond necklace when there is that contracted egoic entity that doesn't understand that that. So, and the thing that we have to come to recognize is that the egoic entity that we think we are, that we think that exists because there is, there's no one there. There's no entity that we're ever going to have. So what we have is we have an imaginary character has pinned all of his hopes on the idea that one day, if I keep at this, I'm going to come to recognize that I'm an imaginary character. You can't get there for a year. It can't happen. So it is the seeing through the, the bubble of self-reflection is when, where most people are when they come to me, they've been in this a while and they come to have the, it's even beyond just purely intellectual, but they have a grasp of this that we're speaking of there. There's a, and they do have a very good intellectual understanding. And we don't, we play the intellectual down too much, I think. There's a, there's value in that because I use the mind to go beyond the mind, but I can't, I got to start with the mind. I use the body to go beyond the body. I use logic to go beyond logic. But we got to start with tools here. And there is, I forgot what we're talking about now. That's what happens is that this thread will, a whiteness will go to get some coffee and then you're left with bread and he has nothing to share. He has a lot to share, but nothing that you would want to hear. So what will we talk about? Well, that's the true sign as well, where there's so much divine play that is where there's been that recognition of that diamond necklace around the neck to the degree of which we recognize how playful it is to be able to say, great, let's hit some tennis balls in the ineffable. And then let's, let's just completely, maybe we play in some other way. And we, and there's, and there's, right without rackets, without rackets. Yeah. Let's, let's use our feet for a little while. Let's use it without, let's try it without balls. Without balls, exactly. And, and that's why the way that you express yourself is in a very playful and it's in a very childlike and, and you have, and that's, that's, that's another big sort of highlight. If there were, quote, highlights of awakened or enlightened, it has a lot to do with happiness. It has a lot to do with peace. It has a lot to do with childlike play. It has a lot to do with that afterward, but it doesn't have any necessarily anything to do with that prior to. Yeah. I find that misery is the door most. Yeah. Yeah. Suffering, suffering is the drill sergeant. And then, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Let me jump back to the thing that I was talking about a minute ago when I was talking about the bottle of self-reflection. So Bob comes to me and Bob already knows that, so, you know, and this, and they already know there's no Bob. So they come to me and then I start going on about, you know, that there's no Bob thing and they're going, when is he going to get to the good part? I mean, it goes, this thing is, this is driving me crazy. I already know all this. And I have to just be very humble and count out of the ego to try to get it to stay with me long enough for understanding to take place. And when the understanding of the capital U occurs, what is recognized, has been recognized by me, but it's already, now it's recognized by me over there as well, which is that the one who knows there is no Bob is Bob. And that is the booby prize of non-duality. Welcome. You have worked yourself all the way to the booby prize. I'm not telling you it's not, that it's no prize at all. It's that that can be useful. That you can moderate suffering from that place, but it's not true. So coming to see that the only thing that counts is when a weakness comes to see that there is no Bob and that not only did not Bob didn't just leave the room, there's no Bob, there was never any Bob. And that when we talked about the fact that when I say that you are the unborn, that's not a pointer. It's just a comment. Like I would say, I like your headphones. You are the unborn. So, and I tell you that you are the unborn and then the born wants to know what's he pointing at there. Right?  I heard that the space is empty. You are the aware space. I heard these things. And the only problem was, I just, you know, I just didn't know which space they were talking about. But I didn't know which place they could be talking about, which was this one. But they, there's only this space. So any idea that I'm going to lose, leave this space to find this space, you know, good luck with that, but you're going to have a help. How long can a weakness look for a weakness without having any luck forever? And it appears that that seems to be the way of it for most people. And your rec, your, your, your sources say, 15% of the people get it, get it. That's fine with me. I don't care. I just think that's high for my experience, but it doesn't make any difference. Some percentage come a whiteness through certain, and it's not like the unit comes to see that. It's a whiteness that comes to see that, oh, there's no Fred. There's never been a Fred. Fred is not going to get this. Fred is not going to capture this and be able to show it off, which is what Fred really wanted, because it was like, you know, I wanted to be the one who achieved enlightenment and have the teacher notice that I had achieved enlightenment and teacher, teacher put a gold star by Fred's name and also give me a big gold star. I put it on my forehead so everybody can see that I'm the special one who achieved enlightenment. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's just yeah, yeah, yeah. Down the tube, down the tube. That's, that's so funny. This thing works backwards. Then what the way that we think it does, all of non-duality, the truth. Let's put it that way. The truth works backwards in the way we think it does. And that's the reason you can't teach a unit how to wake up.  This meat does not have the capacity to be enlightened. Just like this water glass has no capacity to be an enlightened water glass. But it's actually, it's not about the glass, it's about the water. And for this walking cadaver, it's not about the cadaver, it's about the animating presence. Yeah, you've used that before, the animating presence. Yeah, we, yeah, unpack that for us again. The animating presence is simply what you can notice right now is everybody can do this. Just, you know, just notice that there is that sense of aliveness we talked about earlier. That there's a sense of aliveness here. And there, there's a, there's a sense.  I'm not even saying what here is. I'm just saying there's a sense of being, and I'm going to say the feeling will be, there's a sense of being here. And what we think we are is we think we're the vehicle through which that feeling occurs. But we think that that is occurring to the vehicle instead of through the vehicle. In other words, I really think there's a friend over here, and I've got myself some very high-minded knowledge about non-duality and sense of spread. And you don't understand it. So, well, let me help you. Because now I have the enlightened friend helping these poor other units who just kind of slow units just can't seem to get it. And they will never get it as long as there is an ego that they may wake up and find that teaching, but they won't wake up because of it. As long as there is, if the teacher believes that they are the enlightened ones, whatever, you're dead in the water before you even enter the run. That doesn't mean those people can't be helpful. They can. That doesn't mean we shouldn't have them because I know that we do. But I notice that the percentages, let me just take all religions, take all the spiritual circles. And out of all those, how many people really break through? I mean, our numbers are pretty good now.  And well, lots of bunches. And I know about people in other continents and all this and that and the other. And man, we can fill up a football stadium. Okay, maybe we could fill up tonight. Well, I don't know. But I don't think there's that many more of us. Just to also to make sure that on the statistics thing, it's approximately 1% or so are recognizing the agent list or the attribute list. And then about 15 or so percent or 14 or so percent are on the observer or the witness that is experiencing the waves. So the ocean experience in the waves. And then the 85% or so are on that. I'm a separate biological creature. Oh, yeah, I had that mixed up. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. And that's why it makes more sense now because it's just it's a couple of football stadiums or whatnot. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe a bunch of them, but we can still measure it with football. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And then there was probably also another aspect to this, which is that animating presence is what is kind of the beach. It's what everybody, in a sense, has as a sense of being or an aliveness, although it's maybe to different degrees of that like aliveness. But then that 1% is more like the top of the mountain where there is a quote, you know, somebody that's a Fred Davis that is able to host this this satsang where he also brings in dozens of people into it so that they gain a little bit more of the journey up the mountain while, again, it's just while it's also a beach. The beach is like, yeah. And so to hold these at the same time is very critical. And I think one of the next things also for us to touch on is that the same way, and this usually is really helpful for people to sort of get the, in a sense, it's like a gondola ride up to the mountaintop and then the recognition of the beach. And so the way that that sort of also happens is that when you do things like give these analogies with things like the dream where for a third of our lives we're sleeping and then we simulate out a dreamed environment that we take a first person perspective into. And there's no difference between the observer there and its physical environment that those are one thing. The entire thing as you walk past the tree, as you walk past it and you keep going in the dream, that tree doesn't stay there. And so in the dream. And so the analogy to draw for this as well is that this is on a, as above so below, that this is in a sense, we could say God's dream or infinite consciousness. Yeah, so the core dream is when we started getting this thing, there's, oh God, it's all a dream. I can't believe it. And it's Fred and Atlas's dream.  That's the dream is I'm dreaming that I'm afraid. I'm dreaming that I'm afraid.  I have a weakness and dreaming that I'm afraid and that I'm having all these adventures. But yeah, right. And there's a sense of that. But I played with virtual reality and as a sense that I could move imaginary blocks and stack them on top of other, imagine your blocks. There's that sensation and everything. You can see it. Exactly. But it's not, that's an experience. It's not, this experience is a, is a good teacher, but it's not necessarily true always either. It's very much like the sense of being. There's a sense of being. Is that the same thing as saying I am being? It's really not. There's a, there's a sense of being. That's a, that's a statement unto itself. There is, and there is a, as long as we think that this is my dream and I have a guy, can I break out of this dream? We're screwed. Yeah. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Because I mean, that's what I wanted. I wanted out. I was suffering and I wanted out of that dream. And then what I got out of was being afraid. Yeah. Yeah. And I noticed, oh, well, I'm not, I'm not dreaming that I'm afraid any longer and the facts on the ground may remain the same, but I noticed that nothing pertain, none of them pertain to me. Because I am the, I am the awakeness. I am the, the animating presence. I'm not, I am unborn. Just exactly what it says. The whatever it is that's talking through this unit right now, it's not on planet. It's not on planet. It's mother's name was not olive.  It's the recognition of the white source light that is refracted through the diamond here and there and that is taking on that unique coloration experience. Yeah. But to, but to go with the mountaintop, to go inward to the source. Again, it's a very much a self-abiding style process that leads to these, this atma vitra is, it's not something to say that, ah, you know, it's, this is one of the, just one of the things that I see with the sort of neo-advaita and the pointing out is that there's a, there are, there's, it's great to have this sudden style of, of recognition of the diamond necklace already around the neck. And yet it's also important to recognize that, like we were saying a little bit earlier, just that when you do take the 10 days to just and say no words and just go all the way down to the roots of the monkey mind and make yourself less reactive and make yourself more, give yourself more of that pause. Let's be, we're going to be careful about our, from my standpoint. Yes, yes. I would want to be very, very careful with language because I can't make myself be anything given the fact that I'm not. Yeah, yeah. And that's allows for change to take place. But I'm not doing the changing. Yeah. And this is sort of the next subject as well, which is in that dream analogy itself that the, when, when one recognizes that agentless or that attributeless, then the whole idea of free will just dissolves. And that's another. Yeah. Yeah. Because what the philosophers are asking themselves is do we have free will or do we not? They've been debating about it for thousands of years. And I have a different question. And my question is who are they talking about? Yeah. Yeah. Who are they talking about? Are we talking about it? Because of the answer. There's no one here to be enlightened in the, or there's no one here to have free will and there's no one here to not have free will. The whole thing is a story.   You're so busy looking at the birdie that the photographers got over there that you don't look at the camera. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Which is why Ramana said to pay attention of the seer because when you ask the question, who are they talking about? Because that can lead somebody to recognition that, oh, my individual contracted ego. And then that leads to further recognition that that is a, that's hilarious, that that's the thinking process. Versus if the answer is something like God or infinite consciousness and these appearances of expressions that then the question of free will dissolves. It becomes, it becomes more and more of a, you know, of that question of who are they talking about that would have that. There's nobody here to have it or not have it, like you're saying. Yeah, that's, yeah, that way of putting it, it's, it's an, it's an imaginary character is another way that you've, you've said it as well, which has been helpful.  I didn't hear the last part of what you said. Just that the, the imaginary character has been another way that it's been helpful. It's like, it's like in a sense, it's like, if like, you know, we, another potentially good way to say it is that it's anarchic, right? That, that there's, yeah, there's like an anarchic expression to the non-dual. Yeah. Yeah. And that to sort of then ascribe that, oh, well, there's going to be this, this meaning or this purpose to that anarchic-ness, or that there's going to be this, these layers of identity around this one, this one, this one, that is this Atlas one, and that that Fred one, and that there's going to be these, you know, these very real seeming layers of, of identity and these real seeming layers of expression and appearance to it that, and that there's all this meaning and all of this purpose to it. And it's not to say that it's, it's, it's definitely not in the, nihilism has a lot of baggage and negative connotation. It's, that's why the whole like metaphysical anarchy, it just, it sort of vibes a little bit more like clearly. Yeah. Yeah. So maybe that would be a good place to sort of run with you for a bit is that how does, how do, how do things like a metaphysical anarchy as, as a descriptor of the ineffable non-dual? How does that, of the mystery? How does that resonate with you? So I understand that I understand the phrase and I think that it's a, it's a helpful phrase, but we, we just want to be careful with, I have a lot of helpful prizes to it. None of them are true. I know, I, what can we do? What can we do? I have, I have, because this teaching is very, very direct, but I know people, I don't know them personally, but I know of a couple of teachers that have, that taken even more direct approach where there's just, they just, it's just almost ignoring relativity. And the, I feel like these phrases, they give us a handhold and I understand the purpose of a teaching for not giving anybody a handhold and we need that teaching. It's great. I admired, I respected. Simultaneously, I noticed that there are not a lot of the people in the room going, oh, so much of that can become a personality call. And I don't mean that in a bad way. Call, call, I just mean, can it become a personality teaching or whatever? If we're not careful because it is fascinating. Interesting. But it's for many people, those stark teachings, as I would call it, are not particularly helpful. And this teaching is, I know everything I'm saying is a lie, but what I find is I tell provisional truths, which is another way to, to take the burn off of that, off of the lie aspect of that. You said that earlier, the provisional truth. And I really appreciate how often that you're saying this over and over again, which is that I know everything that I'm saying is a lie. So it's so interesting. Yeah. Yeah, that's it. I mean, the people, people pay me to lie to them. And then remarkably, even more. Wait, wait, wait. It's both. It's both because you're, it's both that everything that we're saying is a lie because the ineffable can't have symbols to describe it. Yet it's also true in the sense that the non-dual appearance of what this is is all just happening. And so it is also the simultaneous, just truth of expression of it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely, yeah. Yeah, that's cool. It's always both ends. Yeah, yeah. It's never, it's never one or the other. And that's what, that's what people really want.  I just did.  And it's like, it's, well, it's not like either one of those. Well, it's got to be one or the other. And that's what they're open to hearing is one of their theories or the other one of their theories. But there's not so much openness in hearing what's true, which is, well, both of those things are true. It depends on where you're looking from. I mean, just like our, our model of the, with the two faces, you call it something. Ruben's face, yeah. Ruben's face, just like the Ruben's face is, is that, which is true? Well, I mean, it's, it's, it's both true, neither true, but you, but certainly it wouldn't be true to say that one is the true over the other. Yeah. Yeah, to say that the two black faces or the vase, the two black faces or the white vase, one of those is true or neither is true or both are true. That was a really great part. And another thing that you said, which was great was that to be super careful when, when we say things like that, oh, the, you know, the closest that we can get is that it's just simply this happening or it's metaphysical anarchy or whatever, that it becomes a personality teaching. I really appreciated you saying that as well. Yeah, it does. And what we want to, what we want to notice is that I'm going to say that I could, I was very lucky. I had some, I never stuck with any teacher for too long after Eckhart to Tully and he never met me. And I never met him. So the, it's hard to, but, but he's nonetheless, I would say he was my teacher for quite some time. I read just, I mean, I read his books, I listened to his CDs over and over to just a nauseating degree, to an unhealthy degree. And there, but after that, I had a lot of help. But I, but most of the help I've had, I felt like peaked and that, and then I found it not so helpful. And even Eckhart, I got the way, I couldn't hear him for anything. I mean, I read his book, I wasn't it, because there was not enough directness there. And, but then on the other hand, there's too much directness, but it's, it's, it's, it's, the saying is that when the student is ready, the teacher will appear. And I like to modify that and say, when the student is ready, the teaching will appear. Yeah. If you're ready, the teaching that you can hear will appear. And the real miracle about it, about my students and followers and stuff is simply that they found someone they can hear. And that's, that's the great miracle. You know, I found, I found, I found somebody I could hear. I could hear Eckhart, but I couldn't, I couldn't move on from there. I couldn't, I just couldn't, there was, I couldn't, I couldn't wake up. And I, but I could, when I got a thorough schooling and, but straight from his, straight from his arms, I went to other people that I didn't want to spend so much time with, but that I could hear them. And there was a rapid, really a very rapid movement of understanding. I mean, I was, I was, I was awake for five years before I ever started teaching, which is not a bad idea that that's, I think it's typically ignored, but it's not a bad idea. But I, I want, I wanted very much to be a teacher until, until I woke up and went to see, I'll just shine to you. And I went, I don't think so. Thanks. I didn't, I didn't want to be, after that, I didn't want to be a spiritual teacher. And within a mark, the first person woke up while talking to me. I mean, it was just, so it's the instant I didn't want to be a teacher anymore. I got, I became one. And then I tried to quit later on. I couldn't, it wouldn't let me do that either. So now I just embrace it completely. I love it. This is what I do. I wouldn't want to do anything else because there isn't anything else. Yeah. Wow. That's such a cool part of your story is the, that, that process of even post Satori or Moksha or Nirvana, just sort of taking up time to just be that for even five years. So critical right after, for me, because well, we have the show in this channel. And in a sense, it's kind of, it's, it's like a lot of, a lot of people are, you know, curious, like, okay, well, we're in a sense, they're, they're subscribing in a sense to also the interviewer as well. And so they kind of want to, so if the interviewer has underwent this Satori, there, it was important for me to share. And so then I went through this path, this process of being like, this is crazy. There's going to be these, you know, these couple, you know, direct path teachings and these videos that were now, you know, undergoing, doing these many different faces to that one end that we were talking about. But specifically with your journey, I really loved how you were just like, nope, this is not my thing. Definitely not my thing. And then you're just in conversation with somebody. And it just clicks for them. And you're just like, what could be cooler than literally having people have the click moment? Yeah. Yeah. And there, there's a, you can kind of get addicted to that too. Yeah, because it is, it is, it is extremely pleasurable. And there's, but the coming to see that I'm always waking up, I mean, I can't wake anybody up. People come to me that want me to make them wake up and I can't make them. I can help them. And I have a lot of influence, enormous influence, but I can't make anybody do it. I used to have an AA sponsor who, you know, I asked him one time, well, you know, they don't know that they're really, he wants to quit drinking. And he said, nah, he wants to want to quit drinking. And he said, all we can do is help them when they really want it. Said, if we could make them want it, we'd be millionaires. And that's the way this is, is that I can't make you want it enough. I can make it to where if you want it, it becomes Yeah. Like. Exactly. Pour in a glass of water. Exactly. Exactly. Yep. Yep. And that's also why you said that, you know, the, the perennial wisdoms go something like when the student is ready, the teaching appears, but then the other interesting aspect to that is that when the, when the, when the student goes through this gateless gate, this valeless veil, that then the, the student themselves becomes, you kind of made that funny reference where the teacher puts a golden star on the students, which is, which is so funny that there's that, that process. And then, but then, yeah, the student in the self turns and says, okay, well, now to sort of, you know, to, to, now that I've recognized that diamond necklace around the neck, it's like, now they're sort of a process of like becoming a teacher as well to the, to those that are ready also to. And those who are drawn to it. To or drawn to it. And then there's one more sort of part of that perennial wisdom that's so fascinating, which is that the, because as you know, the students teach you all the time as well. And so it's fascinating because that's why one of the perennial wisdoms is that the teaching is made with through the process itself. And I think that that's also. I tell people very hard for me, I mean, it's very hard for me to get too confused because every couple of hours, one of you guys is going to pop in and straighten me out, right? Multiple sessions a day. So I can only get so confused. Then I've got somebody coming in and teaching. I stopped and it's like, oh, I see. And it's, you know, people are paying me to keep me awake. It is a great racket. Yeah, yeah, it's so funny. Yeah, that's that's the truth. So yeah. Yeah, that's a that's a great way to also I have a, I have a joke that that God decided when he looked down that, you know, so I'm going to go ahead and make that guy a teacher, but I can see this is a troublesome unit. So I think what we're going to have to do is we're not going to be able to wake him up once. We're going to have to wake up this man all the time.  So what are we going to do?  Yep, yep, yep. And that's the truth from the mouths of babes. Yeah, yeah. That even the one, one really good question there for my also even just brief experience with this, even in the last just month that the when there's somebody there that is really, truly like asking really good questions, which is usually what, Oh, absolutely. Which is what my role has been for the last five years trying to get to this point, right? Is that's, and that's usually what the, what the teachers tell me is that they say that I can tell that you by asking these really enthralling questions that you're getting, that you're getting it, that you, that you're, and so you're getting it. And the teaching is rising to another level in the face of skillful questions. Yes. Which is the same thing with non-dual inquires that is it just, because ultimately it's only, only a whiteness can inquire. Because there's nothing but a whiteness. Yep, yep. But when we, when we actively inquire consciously inquire as the whiteness, then it's completely different than actively inquiring as a Fred, right? Absolutely. Trying to find out the secrets of Fred. And what am I, what is, because I thought, well, I thought Ramona was telling me, what is Fred really? Yeah, I know. And that's the same, same thing with the, with the, with the Delphic Maxim on the top of the Temple of Apollo at Delphi that says, no, thyself, because that's sort of in modernity, it's treated like the self-help thing, like with self-actualization. That's right. No, no thyself. Oh, okay, cool. Who is Atlas? What is Atlas going to build into the world? Yes, yes, yes. Yeah. Versus the, in versus the inward process. Perfect, perfect, yeah. Yes, yes. The, um, there is, there is, if you go into any bookstore, there's a big self-improvement section. I have, you know, if my books are there, they are in the self-demolition section. The unsubscribed, the un-teaching section, yeah, exactly. The un-teaching, the un-spiritual teaching, because there's, you know, it would be fine to have, um, one of the self-actualization if there was a self here. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, it's always going to be a self. And if you were, if you were doing it instead of it doing you. Instead of it doing you. That's right. That's it. Because that's exactly that, which is that we all think that we contain consciousness. It's right over here. Right over here. I've got to protect this unit because if this unit goes down consciousness disappears. And, um, consciousness has got us. Yeah. Yeah.  And that's who's always surprised by when awakening occurs. It's never the unit, it's never the character. Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, it's always oneness. Yeah. Oneness is so surprised because in all of its grander and splendor, one is just never even considered the idea that one is looked like this. Yeah, exactly. I know. And I know that's a stretch, but if we look at it, I mean, the thing about oneness, the real tip off for me is that there is just one of them. Yep. So it, since there is just one of them, there's not room for a oneness and a fred or oneness and an atlas. Yeah, yep. So what comes to be surprised is not fred and atlas, which is what we had in mind. Is it not? Right? Yeah. I can't, right. I can't wait for the shift. And, um, but it's a whiteness that is surprised. And, uh, because actually if you look at it, I mean, it's a stretch to think that this is oneness, but since there's just one of them, is there any possible way that this is not oneness? Yeah, like the better question, like the fish that's, that's, that's going, where, where's the ocean? Where is it? Where is it? Where is it? And then, and then once, once they're sort of that, oh, and then it's like this relaxing and, and expanding that happens. And it's just, yeah, it's just so nice for the. You got to be careful. You can end up with some lazy fish that. And that's, that's, that's the, that's the middle path. That's the middle way. That's the, the tantric path. That's Sahaja Samadhi. You weave your enlightened realizations into the social fabric.  Right. It's not like I'm going to say that there is no. There's no Atlas here.  Right.  It's like the Goldilocks zone in a sense. And another way to think about it that, that I've seen with this mountain analogy that it's been really fascinating is when you get to the snow, right? The snow can be sort of like what you think is like enlightenment a little bit and the peak and the absolute and whatnot. But with that snow portion of enlightenment, there's always, if you've heard about the people that go up Everest and whatnot, there are all of these crevices and the crevices can be covered by the fresh snowfall. And so you don't even know that it's there.  And so the idea is that to sort of, to know, to sort of, as you, as, as this sort of the musical notes are being played is there's this like vigilance for these crevices where it's like there.  As you said, yeah, yeah. Thomas Jefferson said that the price of freedom is eternal vigilance. And I have a complete agreement. Interesting. Price of freedom is eternal vigilance. Yeah, yeah. This is all about vigilance. And that's, and that's another sort of there, there's like the self-discipline community as well, like Jocko Willink and and there's a, there's another, there's another one as well that has been making sort of profound waves, but they're sort of another way to describe what is being said with is discernment, is discernment. Is discernment. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Yeah, that eternal vigilance is just that, yeah, discernment is, and that's why it was called netty netty. You know, not this, not that, but it is this, it is that. And like, that's sort of like the closer and closer you get to that ineffable.  I'm, I actually already know that I am that eternal happy that is within and that, that discernment is, is critical. And even with the whole unsubscriptions aspect to it as well, you can think about it with that, that, that three pound arrogant organ that the, the, the inputs that come into, in whether it be the, the, the drinks or the, the food or the information. If we're watching the polarization propaganda, that's going to be highly cancerous to, to any peace and to any happiness. And it has nothing, the polarization propaganda has nothing to do with both and has nothing to do with that philosophy or that understanding at all has only to do with I'm right in that they're wrong and that. And so the, yeah, there's just like, I'm glad that we're sort of on, on discernment here and that, you know, the lack of discernment, the lack of discernment is just astonishing. Yeah, it is. It is. It's just there's so little actual discernment within spirituality. When you have lots and lots of followers who find something that they can follow and that does my discernment for me and oh no, you put your, you put that in somebody else's hands, you take your spirituality and put it in somebody else's hands, you're in trouble. You can find somebody else who can help you with it, but, you know, but don't attempt to offload it and that's what happens. Yeah, I've got me a, well, I have me a spiritual guy. Yeah, like I have a mechanic. I have a great mechanic and I have a great, I have a great spiritual guy I want to introduce you to and it's, you can turn just turn over your spirituality to him. He'll show you the truth then you'll have it. You can go climb Everest like it's a, because if we're not careful, enlightenment can become just another item on a bucket list for ego because he goes just wants to swim the Amazon, climb the, you know, the Himalayas and wants to do this deep-sea dive and do all this and right there on the list somewhere, there's going to be an enlightenment, right? And for many, many people and these, this is where I come in and I say many awaken, but few clear. Yeah, I helped a lot of people build up their bucket list.  That was not what I was after, but it was what they were after. And I can't, there's, and there's little I can do about that. And not anything I should do because that's what we need at this point. How do we know that's what we've got, right? And there's, you know, you can argue with what is if you want to, but I can't recommend it. No, no, no, no, fighting against the waves versus surfing on the crest. That's sort of the analogy. Yeah. Yeah, when you say the awaken, but not clear, it's in a sense a lot like what we were saying in the sort of analogy that we've been referencing throughout as well, which is that when the that egoic contracted drop recognizes itself as the ocean and the ocean experiencing the waves that then that can be thought of as maybe there are these tastes, these light bulbs have as flickered. And then for it to sort of stay on in a sense, the entire observer and experience, the witness and the experiencing process itself is rejected as an appearance, as an illusion, as a dream, as Maya. And that the the only thing that is is no thing. It's, you know, all all just indescribable, ineffable happening. And that this is that that sort of last bit is what you could maybe say as clear. Yeah, that come to see, we come to see this thing, we get come to see through ever more subtle layers. And the, yeah, which is what we're doing right now, because I don't want to, there are no rules to this thing. So I'm not making rules, but I'm just going to tell you from my experience, which is pretty, pretty, pretty bad. It's that if you don't pursue this thing, you will lose it. In other words, you can't really lose what you are, but you're sure. Thank you here. Do you will experience that I had it and I lost it. And I spent 14 years in that predicament in between 2002, between 1992 and 2006.   Right that, oh, oh, oh, I've got it. Fred's got it now, but there's no one here to get it. There's, there's getting it. And, and there's this present verb of getting it, but there's no one here that's got it. And everybody is so interested in graduating from spirituality that they don't want to go to school. Yeah. And also to recognize that there isn't even the graduation process. I'm sure you can say this is that there is no graduation. That's exactly there's no graduation. The moment that you, that we in a sense, stop fanning the fire is the moment that maybe that there is a, that a contraction can come back or a layer of identity can, in a sense, come back. I know that there is this, that, that there is this piercing of the valeless veil, the gateless gate that, that, that does when, when that happens, that many people say that you, there's no going back, that kind of a thing. But there is also a going back. There is, there is, you cannot unseem this thing, but you can experience that you've because, because all you have to do is make it an object that the unit had. Fred, Fred woke up. You go ahead and start treating me as an unlike being of your life. I mean, which means, which means different, please. And yeah, right exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. That's what I was looking for. You know, I didn't get that. Yeah.  Right. And it's just, I wish it, I wish it were less shallow, but that's what that was. That was a lot of my motivation. And it was a lot of my motivation for a long time.  Yeah. But these things do what they do. Yeah.  It's really about the flowers. It's not about the vase. And this is a tin can if ever there was one. But it's not about the tin can. It's about the flowers. Yeah. And the, and, and, and, and a whiteness has no pride. It just assumed use an old tin can as a shining new blown glass vase. Interesting. So you, in the Francis Lucille, who was the teacher of Rupert Spira, Francis has this great expression. He calls it the eternal fireworks of the happening. And, and it's interesting in what you just said, Fred, you say that rather than the, you know, this, the vase, it's that the flower of it. And it's interesting because with the fireworks can be thought of as it's that that fireworks and not the cartridge that's, that's the kind of the that, that gets, that it gets sent up in. And we got a bunch of vases and all the other vases have beautiful flowers too. And they're looking at this place and, and the, you know, the central and they're thinking, God, what beautiful flowers can I get there? Yeah, yeah, exactly. Can I change myself into becoming beautiful flowers? Yeah, already beautiful flowers. They're already a dozen beautiful flowers looking at your beautiful flower saying that's, well, how can I get some of those beautiful flowers? You're already a gorgeous firework looking at another gorgeous firework wondering how can I be a gorgeous firework? How can I make noise and color like that, right? Yeah, yeah. How can I, how can I really charm people like that or whatever? And it's like, well, you know, when I, when I, when I said, told you I wanted to try to stop teaching because when I went to see Ajah and I was white when I got there, but I wasn't, but I'm, but the clarity then was nothing like it is. Yeah, yeah. And the, what happened was I wanted to, I didn't want to teach because I couldn't figure out how to answer all those questions, right?  And what can I put together to answer this question for you? Or whatever it never dawned on me that it wasn't Ajah answering, that it was certainly coming through Ajah-ness. Exactly, yeah. But it's the thing itself is just, I sometimes say, this is like a Pillsbury dough boy. You poke it in the stomach and words come out. That's the same thing with this. You push it in the stomach and words come out. But it had nothing to do. But this unit had nothing to do with the formulation of those words, except that there's, because the body, but the bodies themselves are conditioning. So that conditioning is going to influence what comes out. Like I'm telling you, the truth, the greatest truth that I can, but at the very best, it's the straight truth plus the Fred spin. They can't not be Fred spin on it because it's coming through this unit and there's conditioning there that affects it. And that conditioning is, these bodies want to get rid of all their conditioning, but better watch what you want there because the bodies are conditioning itself. And if you succeed in getting rid of all your conditioning, then the unit will pass. The unit will die because the unit itself is conditioning. But it feels like I've got to get rid of all my conditioning. I've been told that they tell me I've got to get rid of all my attachments. Good luck. The layers are the unique prism that the source light is refracted through. And although it does help to undergo a process of getting to those roots of the monkey mind to be able to create a longer gap, be less reactive, with the longer gap is really what also helps with that discernment that we were talking about earlier. And to sort of have like, I really appreciate how you said a little bit ago that there is more and more an eternal amount of layers of subtlety and clarity to this. I've had people, it didn't used to happen in my early practice, teaching practice, because I just don't think there was attractive enough clarity over here. I mean, I really don't.  People like anywhere in the world who was walking down the street one day and boom, and they're just the awakeness unveiled itself. And they were just, and they were never seekers, never looking to be seekers, never thinking about being seekers. And boom, awakening occurred, and they got a full dose of whatever the hell this is. And, but there's no clarity there, and there can be a lot of confusion. And there can be, there can be enough confusing that people find a way to suffer through anything. And so, you know, you can even suffer with that, I'm sure. But the clarity that comes after it, it's, there's a difference between understanding, which this can't be understood, and the understanding, which is with a capital U. I don't know of a better name word for it, but even though it's not understanding, but there isn't, there, we know there is an understanding here. I can tell from talking to you that you are part of this understanding. Right? And because you can't, you know, somebody, I walk into a room and somebody just stays silent. I might judge them as well. That's quite the awakening of being over there. And, but they come in and they start talking. I don't know. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly, yeah.   And it doesn't take much. Yeah, yep. And it's, that's why the, you can say it's a, it's like a surgical precision that has to be with the, with the discernment of the logos of the words in order for that judgment of the, of what was the mystery and silence to be of, of, oh, they have closer to the capital U understanding. Yeah. Yeah. So there is, in my teaching, I use the word precision a lot. Because, and I talk about that, that, I don't know, I use, years ago, I mean, I was a poet before I was a mystic. I was already a mystic and didn't know it. I thought it was a thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But there's a great love of precision in language here because of those years of the poet.  And the precision of the language, language will not get you there, but it can get you so close. That if you're just willing to just, just step over. I mean, when I first started talking, I used to get a lot of explosive awakenings. That's because people used, I couldn't get you all that close. I could get you pretty close to awakening and, but you still had to leap off the mountain in order to get to the other mountain. But now there's a bridge. You just get the top of this mountain, you walk right on over to the other one. There's not much of a leap you have to take. There's not that sudden jarring change of state, which is because you're kind of, when you're talking with Matt, with me, you're seeing it's very, very, very slowly and easily and slowly and easily and slowly and easily. And then that momentum builds. But it used to be. As a result of that, I had fewer and fewer explosive awakenings, almost none anymore because it's just, it's not as, it doesn't, there's not that same shock because I know I'm working with awakeness. I mean, I will, I will have people notice the sense of being prior to a session because I'm putting myself on notice over there. Okay, I'm here and the jig is up. Right? Awakeness comes to awakeness. Awakeness has no resistance to awakeness. But awakeness that thinks it's a Fred Davis, only so helpful. As you mentioned a couple of times as well, there's a, one of the best ways, as you said with Nisargatsana Maharaj as well, is that the just sitting in the presence is already like a vortex in a sense. And so in a sense, we could say that at the top of that mountain is that as we, in the layers of subtlety and clarity, there's more and more of a vortex that comes in the sense of pulling the, these in pursuit of that mountaintop up with. And that that's also been something that's, it's like the quality, we mentioned this as well, the quality of your life in many ways is the quality of your questions. And that if we're willing to ask these questions of what is I, what is my source? We're willing to be honest with ourselves and few of us are. And I was not particularly known, noted for honesty in my life. But, but now there's a, there's a sort of rigorous honesty over here, at least in this, at least in this one area where I can tell, I can't tell myself, I'm not myself. I can't tell myself, I'm not this.  Because it'd be coming, it'd be Fred's eyes view of the world and the world is never going to be the way that Fred thinks it should be. But from this point of view, when I change where I'm looking from, and now I'm looking for the eyes of awakeness where there's no actual point of view, there's just view, you're just viewing, then I can't find a problem here. I can't find anything broken or out of place or missing nothing. Seems to be actually there appears to just be what is and what is, it feels to me like it, there's, it can only be as it is. Yes, yes. And that's why the rinse size then had the question of what at this moment is lacking. Yes, that's it. That's right. Yeah. What at this moment is like, absolutely nothing. Nothing. Nothing. Yeah. Fred, this has been such an honor and a pleasure. Oh, and I've really enjoyed it. You've, the quality of your questions has been really, really excellent. And the quality of your, how do I put that, but... Tennis playing, dialectic? Yeah, the quality of your tennis playing. Thank you for pulling me out of that. The quality of your tennis playing is very high and I've really enjoyed going back and forth. It really is. It's just what could be better. Yeah. Like you said, that that's the second one. The first one is, there's nothing to talk about. And the second one is the coolest thing is to get as close as we can with symbols to it. Yeah. That's it. Yeah. That was a great point. Well, thank you very much for having me and I'm tickled to death. Me too. Yeah, tickled to death. Another good one. Yeah, I've been, I've been taking them. The unborn is tickled to death. Yeah. Yeah. Go figure. Yeah, exactly. Wow. I've been, yeah, I've been taking so many great notes of reference throughout the convo and and that's been a great reference point throughout the animating presence, the awakeness, both and the dream analogy, metaphysical anarchy, but not having it become a personality teaching that the non duality of the beach with the duality of the mountain. That was a really, really good one. The valeless veil, the gateless gate. Yeah. Yeah. And the net and sense of being and Allah. I'm looking forward to exploring more together. Where are you? Where are you based? I'm in South Carolina. Perfect. South Carolina. Cool. We're in Los Angeles. The very center of the non dual universe. Of the not exactly. Yeah. That's right. South Carolina. That's where it's at. Cool. Yeah. Hopefully when things settle a bit closer to maybe the summer and whatnot, it would be awesome to be able to do one of these in person. Another round. Yeah, you're really great. We really, really appreciate you a lot, Fred. And thank you. And also for all of those that watched, we love you so much. Thank you for watching. Thank you for tuning in. We are super appreciative. We would love to hear how you feel about the tennis and what Fred was teaching us about in the comments below. Come play tennis. Come play tennis. Yeah, exactly. And let us, we would love to hear from you. So let us know. And then also like the video for brought your value. Subscribe if you haven't. Share the video with other people as well. And also check out the links in the bio below. AwakeningClarityNow.com is down there. Also Fred's author page on Amazon with all of his books. You can check those out as well as his YouTube channel. Go and subscribe to him and check out his videos. They're excellent. And I think Fred mentioned throughout the interview as well that he's doing the smaller groups. Yeah, I'm doing smaller groups and I'm doing, I still do socks on every Sunday. Everybody has welcomed that. I got an email this morning that was addressed to Betsy. And he said, how do I make Fred? And I wrote him that. So come to socks on. And it's, there, there's still, I'm very actively teaching and I'm teaching every day. And so I'm just not doing exactly the same thing. As a mother shop around. To help people wake up. I have new ways that they're simply more efficient. Yeah. And they're less taxing on this old unit. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. I've really had about all the hand to hand combat that I'm looking for the guys, right? Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. The wisdom of that. And then also the wisdom of the internet with the ability to go one to many as well, which is really profound. So yeah, it is. It's beautiful. Yeah. Thank you again. So, so much Fred. Thank you. Thank you. It's my great pleasure. Thank you. And thank you. Thank you. I'll see you when I see you. Thank you. And thanks everybody for tuning in. We love you so much. Thank you. And much love. We will see you soon. Peace, everyone. Bye. Bye.