It has become increasingly easier and easier and super easy to see people, especially on YouTube or TikTok or wherever, who call themselves Christians, it's becoming easier and easier to tell that they're not Christian. Some of these people that they just say some things and tell you how they believe their theology, their doctrine, you can tell. Nope. Sorry, buddy. Even though I hate to say or act like I know who is or who isn't, some people make it glaringly obvious and just easy. It's like saying what's one plus one. I can I know I don't have to debate with anyone to know that it's two. And with this particular guy who I have really tried to avoid even talking about, but he keeps showing up, pop up on the radar. And I I'm going to have to kind of I hope I'm not, you know what, I take it back. I was going to say I hope I'm not too rude, too unkind. But with him, I really don't care, right? This guy is horrible.   Good evening, everyone.  This guy's horrible. This guy is absolutely horrible. Now he is and we're going to go ahead and put the not that we're going to do it forever, because there's always going to be someone's going to come across. Is going to say that the way that we read the Bible is incorrect and how they take a spin on things. Now there are a lot of people that call themselves Christian, that we know aren't Christian just by their behavior and their action and their doctrine. But you don't come across a lot of pastors that you'll say that, you know what, this guy, you are a pastor because anyone can pastor a flock. But the flock that he may be pastoring, they can't be Christian because you aren't a Christian. And so I do want to jump in on something that he has said. Again, the guy is is is is cuckoo. And so I want to I want to deal with, as a matter of fact, we put up on screen.  And I want to put to bed this whole issue of does the Bible speak against homosexuality? Well, again, let's look at Romans 126. Says, for this reason, God gave them up to dishonorable passions for their women exchange natural relations for those that are contrary to nature. And the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another. Look what it says, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error. Now, what he may say and what they tend to say is they want to look at this word for men. Let's put it back on the screen and act as though this is not referring that it may refer to it could be a young boy. Well, this is clearly not not the issue that's here. It speaks of of women. Now, this is female or someone feminine. However, there wasn't really in in play age when talking about ladies as much as it is men, though don't get me wrong. They do have a distinction between young ladies, girls and young young women. But here, speaking about men, the word that's used here, it does refer to male, but it also most commonly refers to men. Now, in case one of these guys wants to say that that's all it's talking about, well, you can't say that for Leviticus.  Well, so what does that mean? Well, it doesn't matter the age of the male or not.  I know that's different than what most folks want us to see and think about today, but a male is a male. OK, someone with an XY chromosome makeup and one of those should not lay with another one with the same makeup.  It is an abomination. Now, the next passage says, and you should not lie with any animal and make so and so make yourself unclean. They wouldn't come back and say, well, it's OK to lie with a young animal. No, as backwards and as goofy as that would sound to say, there's a distinction in age. God didn't make God makes no such distinction. A male is a male, regardless of the age going back to it. Let's look at the other another passage Leviticus Leviticus 20. If a man lies with a male as with the woman, both of them have committed an abomination. And to make it clear here, the word that's used here is each the word each is used for a man. Not a young boy, because there's a word for that, but this is used of a man. So this person who calls himself a pastor, one, he's not a pastor of the Bible. He's not a Christian pastor. And then let's go ahead and wrap it up with 1 Corinthians chapter six. He says, and do you not know that the unrighteous will inherit the kingdom? God do not be deceived, but neither the sexually immoral nor idolatry. Let's just stop. I'm sorry, I'm sorry, nor idolatry nor adulterers nor men who practice homosexuality. Now, they are going to say that that that can refer to something else other than homosexuality, as though one of the translators and they all have the same way that the translators are not referring to a homosexual act. Well, they are because it's men who practice these things. And he's speaking of this thing called Malachor, which deals with it. By the way, could this word refer to something else? It could. But when they refer to homosexuality in Greek, that's the word they also use. OK, so here's a person who wants to kind of have it his way. He wants things to kind of go the way he wants to. He wants to kind of interpret things. He he will talk about this in a second, but he has decided to make a guide of his own choose. Let me move this over here. I don't know why I have this over here, which should be over here. And so that part is clear. But what he does is he would rather cast doubt on the Bible. He wants people because if you're going to create a scenario where you don't read the Bible one literally, remember, guys, I've always stated and said, let me turn this light off. This is bright in my eyes.  But I've always stated that that in order for for for you to tear down the Bible, you've got to minimize in order in order to have a religion or a belief that you want to have, it's got to be built off of a Bible that cannot be interpreted literally. OK, and so you know me, I've stated and always will continue to state that you should read the Bible literally until it tells you not to understanding that there's a such thing as figures of speech and metaphors and so forth and there are idioms and poetry and so forth. But that being said, you have to minimize the Bible and the words of it in order to get your point across in order to deceive people. You see that with the word of faith movement. You see this with people who are especially hyper charismatic people who want to slay demons, every their demons everywhere. Well, you have to do something with the scriptures. You have to turn the scriptures and allegorize the scriptures and read or just like he does, in many cases, minimize, minimize, minimize, minimize the scriptures. English would help your Corey, but minimize the scriptures and say that's not really what he means. And so let me let me just play something that he said that that is kind of telling in how he does things. When I see this question, I honestly don't know how to answer because I don't know what you mean. You say the Bible is one hundred percent true. But here's the thing, the Bible doesn't exist. What we talk about when we're talking about the Bible is a library of different ancient texts. If you're a Protestant, the Bible contains 66 different books written over the course of thousands of years by dozens of different authors in different languages with different genres, from different cultures and contexts. And so if you're going to ask, is the Bible true? You have to ask, are each one of these individual books true? But here's the thing, it gets even more complex because truth means different things based on different genres. For instance, the Bible contains mythology and stories. The Bible contains artistic accounts like poems or songs. The Bible contains historical accounts. If you ask, is a myth true? Well, if you mean historically true or scientifically true, the answer is no. But that's not the question you should be asking of a myth or a story. You should be asking, is the moral of that story true? And most of the time in the Bible answers, yes. So he says, I don't have to call it that. Most of the time, the answer is, yes, most of the time. Well, it's really how he reads the Bible. He has he has decided to conjure up and to invent a God all of his own, one that looks like him, that has his own worldview. And so because of that, he is obviously and this is by the way, guys, this is where this progressive form of Christianity leads to this. What? And let's make no mistake about it. It's not really Christianity. It's not progress. I mean, it's progressive, but it's that Christianity. It's this liberalism that's been dumped into reading the Bible. In other words, it's how I am the way I am is how I see the Bible. You'll hear this even when people who aren't as lost and as bad as this guy, you'll hear people when asked the question about the Bible or talk about the Bible, they'll say things like, to me, this is or I see the Bible as this. And that can be a little difficult. I understand where they're where they're meaning. But but some of these folks take that that phrase to me, kind of the heart. And so they interpret the Bible from their own worldview, out of their own worldview, the way they see things. Well, because he's gay, because he is one of these social active people, socially active people, he sees a guy and he's fashioned a guy this way. He is literally violated one of the Ten Commandments. He has made a guide of his own making. He is he's not a guy out of out of carved wood or iron or gold. No, he's made it out of his own imagination. It is a figment of his mind. What it is, it's a guy after his own heart, rather than him, rather than him being a person after God's heart, rather than God being the person that is that has chosen him and he's like God. No, he has made a God. He has chosen God and made God to be like he is. He wants a guy that has and shares all the values that he has. Think about this for a second. You run across a person who. Let's say they are real passive. They don't like violence. They don't like to hurt people and they they might sometimes read that into how they read the scriptures. And then some people who are kind of, you know, more to the point, direct matter of fact, they'll they can appreciate one, the harshness that sometimes comes out in the way God deals with people and think that's the way it's supposed to be. They don't have any room for any tolerance and any love and so forth. And extreme on either side is dangerous, too rigid. On this side is dangerous, too soft on this side. It's also too dangerous. By the way, the word molecule does refer to soft. Jesus, when he he spoke about them and so to John, Jesus, when he comes out, he says, speaking about John, how was John dressed? Was he did you see him in these soft clothes referring to the Pharisees, the word that he's talking about of these these feminine clothes?  God does not want to even have any doubt as to what a man should be like and what women supposed to be like. He made them specifically to serve a purpose and made us quite different. Can I get a man on that? I'm so glad. I'm so glad that men are different than women.  Let me say this. A person who is struggling with their sexuality can be saved. That is, if they're struggling, just like a heterosexual or heterosexual heterosexual male or female can be struggling. But the issue is, are they?  God can't change me. God can't he can't influence this. Matter of fact, forget the struggle. God made me this way. Well, no, no, God did not make you this way. As a matter of fact, let's just be clear. And so if a person is struggling with any sin and that's a key word. Yeah, you're right. Proverbs 17, 11, no, he ain't struggling. He is bold about it. He is brash about it. He is he wants us to embrace it. A person who is struggling again. I've told you guys a story about a couple of people who were struggling with homosexuality and they they wanted it gone. They knew what it was doing to their marriage, knew what one was married, what it was doing to his lifestyle. He he he loved Jesus and wanted to come out of this. Now, what I did with him, I didn't have a 12 step program. I didn't I didn't read any books on how do I how do I cast this gay demon out of person, right? But what I did was I said, you know what, the closer you get to God. Then I'm sure he is better equipped at removing whatever the sin is. And so the issue has always got to boil down to whatever the issue is that you're dealing with your life.  What's more important? Because if if your lifestyle, if your likes, your disagreements and so forth are more important than your relationship with with with with Christ, well, then we already know the answer. You're not a believer because you put something else before him. Now, I wish I had a gold start to put on on your head. CG, new creation, because that's what everything always boils down to. It boils down to proximity. Clearly this guy, Brandon, is far away from God. He didn't want to get close to God and that's fine with him. As a matter of fact, and the reason is that he didn't want to get close to God and the reason why people like him would bash you over the head about being this close to him is because if he's your Lord and you've got to obey him and you want to obey him and you've got this love for him, well, that means if I do the same thing, if I acquiesce, then I can't be gay. I can't live out not the true me, but the me me, the me I want to be. Well, listen, Brandon, listen, you can be as flaming as you want to be. You can be as low key gay as you want.  You can be all that you want to listen, knock yourself out. However, you are you are going to have to come to the grim reality that there is going to be a consequence for how you're living out. But even more so, the fact that you are leading people in that area. Now, there is going to be and we may have to delve into this one day, how the Bible speaks about it and then go to it, into it, to it, to in depth, but how there are, it seems to be differences in hell. Jesus makes a statement that says it will be better for you. I'm sorry, it will be better for Sodom and Gomorrah in that day than will be for you, meaning when they when they go to their final destination, it's going to be better for some people in hell than others. I don't know how that works. And granted, the Bible hadn't elaborated on that enough. But this person, if there is the ghetto, the worst part, the slums of hell, I can guarantee he's going to be there. No, if ends, but about it, he is on his way. Now, maybe, maybe, Lord willing, he changes. Maybe he sees a light. Oftentimes, when you're so entrenched, it takes something drastic to kind of knock you out of that world of you. I've seen that happen. But with the person who I'm speaking to, matter of fact, two of them, as they got closer to Christ, without even we didn't spend a lot of time talking about their homosexuality, by the way, we spent more time focusing on Christ and getting closer. Because as I said before, our issue as Christians, as well as nonbelievers, it's the same issue. It's just proximity. Now, they are way over there. He's over there in the section where the people who don't call themselves Christians are, he's over in the ISIS section. So us as believers, though, we are Christian. And oftentimes, every time, not often, every time we can attribute our struggles and our failures are our shortcomings as a Christian with our proximity. How far away are we from Christ? We know him, but sometimes we on our own just kind of move a little bit here. That's the nature of a sheep. Right. And so that's clearly his issue. And so you see how he's also minimized the scriptures. By the way, what I'm sitting and doing, I'm looking at this computer. I neglected to upload. I've got to upload, but to put in one particular video and I'm going to put it in here. I'm trying to figure out a smooth way to do it. And I'm coming to the realization that there's no smooth way to put this thing in here. Or is it? Do I have it in here already? Oh, you know what? It's already there. It's already there. Look at that. I'm sorry. I'm sitting here. I told you guys, when I'm when I'm on this thing, I'm looking at a few things. I'm looking at the chats. I'm looking at the scriptures. I'm looking at my notes, and I'm also thinking about where I'm going. And if I see something I've got, OK, for my mind, where am I going? There's like 12 things happening in my head. Always remembering a word from our sponsors. Amen. Clearly, this guy is not a cults fan. That being said, cults fans, we you know, I've never met. This is for real. This is true.  I'm sure there must be one. I'm sure I'm sure there must be a gay cult fan somewhere somewhere over in the corner somewhere. But I haven't met him. And if he is, we'll take away his cults t-shirt and handkerchief. I'm pretty sure he's got a handkerchief. But this guy will men. J wise, I'm upset with you. But wait a second. Would you say, OK, I'm sorry, this is live. She says, just don't hit that outro button on us fast. All right, OK, I'll try not to. I'll try not to. Anyway, but it would be one thing if he were struggling with the gay part. Now, make no make no mistake about it. And we're going to be talking about this more and more and more. We'll be talking more and more about some of the world views that are out there, because let's be honest, the world and our Christian walk kind of bump heads. Matter of fact, all day long, you guys live, eat and work in the world. And so we are we're having to confront the world and how the world affects us, how the world can pull you out. Be a believer.   But Jesus says that I've come to give you life and life more abundantly.  You can walk and be happy even in the midst of trials. And as a matter of fact, being in the midst of these trials and these tears and these these things that we go through, you can still find joy. I've met some of the happiest, joyful people I've ever met have had some serious struggles they were going through. The things that we look for and search for in life, those who have those things, a lot of times tend to be the more miserable people because they have there's this hole in their heart that they keep forgetting or haven't been told or embrace the fact that Jesus feels that hole in your heart. And so what's happening is that there's more and more of the world encroaching on us and getting us to look at the world through their lives. So what's happening politically? Well, that affects the way that we should look at the Bible. What's happening, let's say, with the genders. I said the genders because apparently there are more than two. Apparently, there are several genders. I'd like. I like to see them. One person, one day, give me a good explanation as to how there's more than two so far they have it. But the things that are happening, let's say, in economic atmosphere, what's happening with Wall Street and with banking and so forth with our own personal finance was happening with schools, the tragedy that happened on two days ago, but also what's happening in regards to race relation. And that happens. And so we started looking at the world, I mean, looking at the Bible and how we ought to act based on what we're seeing on Fox, CNN, MSNBC, ABC, what have you. And that shouldn't be the case. Now, this guy, obviously, if he looks at the Bible kind of upside down and he didn't put a whole lot of validity into it, then he makes a mockery of the scriptures, right? And so you all may have seen the the video that he had about Jesus being racist. If you have it, here it is. Did you know that there's a part of the Gospel of Mark where Jesus uses a racial slur? In Mark chapter seven, there's the account of the Sarah Phoenician woman, a woman who is Syrian and Greek, both of which there were strong biases against within the Jewish community. And she comes to ask Jesus to heal her daughter who's possessed by a demon. And what is Jesus's response? He says, it's not good for me to give the children's food, meaning the children of Israel's food, to dogs. He calls her a dog. What's amazing about this account is that the woman doesn't back down. She speaks truth to power. She confronts Jesus and says, well, you can think that about me, but even dogs deserve the crumbs from the table. Her boldness and bravery to speak truth to power actually changes Jesus's mind. Jesus repents of his racism and extends healing to this woman's daughter. I love this story because it's a reminder that Jesus is human. He had prejudices and bias and when confront it with it, he was willing to do his work. And this woman was willing to stand up and speak truth. What if Christians acted like Muslims? Or what if we had a Muslim section, a Muslim like section of Christian? Meaning this, they don't say this kind of stuff about Mohammed. They don't say this kind of stuff about Islam, do they? They because on one side, they accuse us of not being loving and not being forgiven. But they take advantage of the fact that we are forgiving people and we are loving people and they insult our God.  I'm sorry. He's crazy.   He is ungodly. All the different things that we are, that we should avoid saying about believers. We can say about him.  Jesus says we could call our brothers a fool, but we can. This guy is not our brother. No, no, no, if and buts about it. And so he said that Jesus had to repent of his racism and who let him do that? She speaks truth to power. Now, these are buzzwords that are used in liberal circles here in America. But she speaks truth to power and she wouldn't back down.  If anything that he said so far doesn't bother you, I'm going to need you to pray and ask and place your faith in Christ. OK, because we need the Holy Spirit in you. And by the way, it doesn't take you don't have to be a Christian to be able to discern the fact that this guy is not a Christian. That that's not hard to see. OK. He what he wants to be more than anything else, guys. And this is why we're going to be spending some time on this is he wants to be a friend of the world.  But and the thing is we don't have enough time to go over all the things that this person believes and doesn't believe in. We just have that kind of time.  The guy just he will drive. He's the kind of person that you can't listen to him very long or for fear that you might do something to him. He's just he's infuriatingly moronic.  Because even people who didn't go to school, what wouldn't say the things that you say having picked up a Bible? It'd be different. It'd be different if he made these statements having never read a Bible because you can't come to some of the clues that he comes to. But he does.  He needs to validate his lifestyle. Now, I want to go ahead and let's just look at the passage that he brought up. He brought up Mark, but I'd rather look at it in in Matthew. So let's go to Matthew 15, 22. I'm sorry, 15 is it 22 or 21? Let's start 21. He says, it says, and Jesus went away from there and withdrew to the district of Tyre and Sidon. So it needs to be clear, Jesus goes to the Gentiles. He goes in someone else's territory. OK. And so because of that, Jesus is not in he's in foreign territory. Right. And behold, a Canaanite woman from that region came out and was crying, have mercy on me, O Lord. Someday that my daughter is severely oppressed by a demon. Now, remember whose land that this used to belong to. Remember, this is the land that God gave to them, but the Canaanites were previously there. And so there's always been this tension, this warring, this back and forth between the Canaanites and the Jews anyway. And so here she is speaking to a Jew. But you know what? She recognized who this Jew is, doesn't she? She says, have mercy on my daughter. She's severely oppressed by a demon, but he did not answer her a word. And his disciples came and begged him, saying, send her away for she is crying out after us. Why do you guys suppose that she that Jesus did not answer her? Because clearly he knew she was talking to him. Jesus didn't have to hear your voice and know what you're thinking or what you're going to say. But he heard her. Clearly he did. They heard him. Why? Why do you think that she he did not answer her? The disciples will say, can you please send her away? Send her away for she is crying out after us now. She's called out for us as well. Yeah, Xavier, Jesus is always looking for moments to teach people, one us after the fact, but even them there. Recall the young man who was rich, who came to him and said, I've done all of these things and what else should I do? He said, we'll sell your possessions. Where is that the law of Jesus? But I want to see something. So oftentimes he always, I should say always, but oftentimes he is going to show you you. And in this case, he is demonstrating faith, not just to her. And to us, but also the disciples. Let's go back to it. Verse 24, he. He answered and says, I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. But then now she comes up, she says, she came in before him saying, Lord, help me. Notice what she calls them. She calls him Lord. Now this Lord, if you look over here, this is in what is called the vocative. It's oh, Lord, she's crying out. She is she means it. She means what she's saying. She's not just looking. She's not going out to fill out an application to the nearest place where they can get aid or help. She's calling him Lord and she's doing it with her heart. She says, oh, Lord, that's another way that you could also. And some of your versions might even have it that way. But she says, Lord, help me. So it's clear she ain't going nowhere. And he answered and said, it is not right to take the child's bread and throw it to the dogs. She said, yes, Lord, yet even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master's table. Then Jesus answered her, oh, woman, great is your faith. Be it done for you as you desire. And her daughter was healed instantly. So the issue that this guy, Brennan brings up is the fact that he called her a dog.  And so they would call the Samaritan's dogs. They would call Gentiles dogs. They wouldn't call the Romans dogs to their face, depending on who the Roman was, but they would call them dogs, making it clear that we ain't with you and you ain't with us. But this word for dog here is not quite the same. The meaning of this word right here, excuse me, can I re-oise? I'm sorry, I can't even put this. It's got a Yoda and I'm a crying Yoda beside it.  And so my first focus, my primary focus, my primary focus is Israel or the Jews. That's what I came here for. Now, since I came here for that, by the way, if I came here for the Jews, Jesus, why are you here? Why are you in this region? If you think about that for a second, Jesus shows up in their region. Jesus shows up, wait a second, you're in our home, in our country, in our land. You're in our neighborhood. And you mean to tell me you came for them, but you're here. But that's beside the point, Jesus, I need help. Is this kind of reminiscent of John chapter four when he goes before the Samaritan woman? Because before he gets there, he says, King James Version Alert, he says, I must need go to Samaria. I need to go to Samaria. Well, Jesus, you don't need to go anywhere.  You don't have to go anywhere. But why? Well, Jesus will do things for demonstration oftentimes so you can see what he's up to, but his ministry at that exact moment was Israel, but in just a few days, a few weeks, it's not gonna be just Israel. As a matter of fact, he is going to say in John, when speaking to the Jews, that he has flock, I mean, sheep of a different flock. And then Paul makes it clear later that it's always been that God had this ministry, not for just Israel and the Jews, but for others as well. And so he's using Israel to bring about this gospel. And in this case, he's telling her, listen, you know, I came for the Jews. Why are you up in my face asking me to bless you? Bless you, can't a night. I love the KJV to monkey moves. I actually did. Somebody asked me how can I'm always using ESV again, I use ESV because on this software, the default version translation is ESV. And if you know anything about me, I'm not trying to do a whole lot of tech technology work and make the default King James version, new King James version, ESV or what have you. That's just, there's a way to do it, but I have a feeling if I try to do it, I throw the whole thing in, I throw a monkey rich in the whole thing and just blow the system up. So therefore guys, you'll see the ESV up there all the time. I will though, I can manually go to KJV or any other version, but I love the KJV also.  Guess what little household dogs do get? Think about the first second because he's using this analogy of these children and a household dog and bread. Should I give the bread to the children? Is this for the children, to the little dogs? Well, there are no little children, there is no actual bread, there's no table and there are no actual dogs. So he's using the metaphor. Do the little dogs at the house get the crumbs? Think about that for a second guys. Do the little dogs at the house, if you got a pet dog in those days, do they get crumbs or do you go to the neighborhood pet coat and buy some printed dog chow or something? No, they eat off of your table anyway. So what was Jesus going to do anyway? He was going to heal her anyway. He was going to hear her anyway. But what he did need, what it would need to be shown, especially for these Jews was her faith, her faith. Notice the Jews did, let's go back to it. Verse 23, look at what the disciples said. Now, these are the people that's posted, they're going to handle the gospel after Jesus is gone, but they're still being trained, right? They're still being trained. Notice what their response was. They said, the disciples came and said, send her away, she's crying out after us. Is that to be taken that, hey, she's starting to worry us too, she's getting on our nerves? Why is it that they didn't have the thought, the heart, the compassion, just healer Jesus? Wave at the hand, it's nothing for you to do it. Or to go to her and say, listen, just calm down, he's going to take care of you sweetheart, he's got you. He's the man right here, they didn't do that. There are often times where they even exhibited little faith and of course we see Jesus saying that, how come it's though you guys have no faith? When he's on the boat with him, I'm in the boat with you guys.  I'm in the boat with you, but he says, it's though you have no faith. And so their faith or lack thereof or compassion or lack thereof is on full display here.  Jesus is not being racist. Jesus is making a point, drawing her out and putting her faith on full display. For us from now and forever to talk about her faith, she's on display. But you want to say that Jesus was rebuked and corrected by this woman for her racism? This guy is really horrible. He is, I would love, I wouldn't spend any money to go see him, but I would love him. I don't know where, does anybody know where he lives? I would love for him to come to Dallas and to preach. I'm there. I am there.  Brother, would you please stop that?  And so the issue is, and again, he's trying to, because it's become more fashionable to be anti-Bible, to be Christian, but anti-Bible. We've already seen him speak about how the Bible is not to be trusted, how he impunes the Bible. And if you go to his TikTok page, he says some outlandish stuff. I'm not gonna fight the guy. No, I'm not gonna fight him, but I would confront him. That's it, yeah. I would confront him and I wouldn't, I'm not going to be violent, but I would confront him. There might be 50, 60, 100 people with rainbows around their heads and stuff like that in my face, but that being said, I would love this to go there and just to confront him. Just to say, hey, explain some things to me because he's never really confronted by someone that I've seen, someone that can handle the scriptures. And so I would love to just confront him. Now, I have an idea of what he would do. Yeah, he does appear to be pretty young. I have an idea of what he would do, which is to not speak to me, keep moving, hurl insults or let his people do the same thing. But he's got this worldview that basically says, live how you wanna live, do what you wanna do. And it's gonna be all right. You know why he says that? He lives in Washington, D.C. Okay, do you know why he says everything is going to be all right?  You know why he says that? Well, because he believes that everybody is going to be safe. By existing, we all already have eternal life because we were created by the eternal God and given light and life that has no beginning or end. Two responses. One, I'm already saved. I've given my life to follow the example of Jesus and to teach his word and his way to the world. But also the good news is that it will never be too late for anyone because the scriptures clearly teach that God will redeem and save everyone in the end. As Paul writes in Romans chapter five, in Adam all die, but in Christ all will be made alive. So let's look at that for a second. He says, now, this is how you know what's wrong with this guy. For now, he's a pastor. He says in Romans five, in Adam all die and all in Christ are made alive. So let's go to Romans five. Let's see if we can see what he's talking about. What you're going to find out that this pastor, not only is he mistaken about the scriptures, he's also mistaken about the pastors that he's referring to because it's not Romans five. He's probably referring to 1 Corinthians 15. So we'll go there. But Romans five does go along with 1 Corinthians 15. So let's go ahead and read what it says. He says, but the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, that being about Adam, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man, Jesus, Christ, abounded for many. And the free gift is not like the result of the one man sin, that being Adam, for the judgment following one trespass, Adam brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. For if because of one man's trespass, Adam, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who listen, those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ. So he's not saying here that everybody, though everybody is dead in Adam, that also everybody's alive in Christ. He says, look what he says. He says much more, verse 17, towards the end much more will those who receive the abundance of grace. So specifically those who receive Christ, okay? Verse 18, therefore as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. Now, his issue is going to be the all, all of the men. Well, let's go to the passage that he, I think he probably should have said or meant to say, which is 1 Corinthians, chapter 15, verse 22, he says for as in Adam, all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. So this point is all people die in Adam.  Well, then what would be the purpose of even bringing up the fact that all died in Adam? But the key point is, look at the scriptures again, the issue is the end, that's the issue. So, and those that are in Christ, they all will be made alive. So the issue is going to be, Brandon, since you don't read your Bible, the issue is in, are they in Christ? So now this word for all, let's go back to it again. This word for all is the word pantes, which comes from, it is derived from the Greek word, pas or pan, which means, look at the bottom left-hand corner, it means all or every or the whole. Okay, now, if you got your King James version, a lot of times you'll see this phrase, now there also is a word for a hoax, which is whosoever, but there's also this phrase that's used for all, which isn't translated as all, sometimes it's translated as whosoever, or whoever, such as John 316. You wanna know why, even though the Greek word that's there is, pas, apistuan, all the ones that are believing, whereas in the English translation it'll say whoever or whosoever, to try to indicate that whoever it may be that is in him, or whoever it may be in John 316's case, that is believing those are the one that shall not perish. So in this case, whoever it may be, whoever it is that is in Christ, is made alive. Now, this isn't difficult, Bible interpretation, this isn't difficult exegesis wise for someone to preach or teach this, apparently it is for him. I think someone said that he went to seminary, I'd love to know what seminary he went to, so we can go ahead and go march on that seminary and get those people, get that seminary to lose his accreditation, but, and there are people that go to seminary who, again, it's not the fault of the seminary, in many cases, in many cases it's the person's heart. There are a lot of good seminaries that people go to and then come out as though they went to someplace else. It's not seminary's fault, because remember, where would you rather go to? A seminary or to be trained by Jesus himself? Well, surely I'd rather speak and be trained by Jesus, but did everyone who listened to Jesus and followed Jesus end up having sound doctrine and walking with him? Well, no, case in point, Judas. So it's the heart of the person not the teaching of the seminary. Now, don't mistake me, there are some bad seminaries too, some seminaries that just should not even call themselves seminary, but this particular person, he doesn't get it, to think that everybody is going to be saved? Well, we got a problem now. If everybody is going to be saved, well, what's the natural conclusion? If ever, he went to pet seminary. If everybody is going to be saved, then I can live how I wanna live.  I can be the authentic gay me, the pink flaming gay pastor, because, oh, by the way, if I'm wrong on this next point, then it doesn't matter, I'm still going to heaven, but he makes a statement that some of the ask him about what it's like being a gay pastor and then he kind of pundits the question as though the answer is obvious as though Jesus is gay, listen to this.    Because he wants, and he'll say this often times, that they have this hyper love for each other and so sexuality was not an issue with Jesus and of course he said that before, that sexuality is only an issue with us. He has twisted the scriptures in such a way to where anybody can do what they want to do to live, how they want to live and there's no consequence. There's no consequence. Now, I've told you guys before that every doctrine, every sound doctrine that the church holds, all of those are going to be attacked. There's not one doctrine that as we go further, that you'll have less and less professing, not possessing, but people that say they're Christian, you'll have more and more people who are going to start knocking those down. In other words, you'll have less and less people who believe in, I don't know, Jesus is being God.  You'll have less Christians believing that the Bible is even an authoritative book that God did through his spirit, breathe on man to write these scriptures. You'll have less and less, pick a doctrine, name it. If it's true, you'll have more people knocking those down. And one of those doctrines that they are knocking down quickly is the deity of Christ, that Jesus is not God. This commenter says, Mark chapter one, verse three, affirms the deity of Christ. This is in response to a video where I claim that the earliest Christians and Jesus himself did not claim to be God, that the divinity of Christ is a doctrine that develops early on in Christianity but did not originate with Jesus and the apostles. So his point is, James, I'm going to cover that next week as a matter of fact, but his point is that Jesus is not God, which is probably why he could be a racist and have someone to correct him, which is probably since he's not God, he could also be gay, or possibly gay. He's not here to condemn, he's only here to love. I choose Marcus Rogers over Brandon any day. You know what? I wouldn't get in the boat with either one of them. I can tell you this, neither one of those boats are getting far from the shore and they both are gonna sink. So I'd rather swim than being in the boat with either one of them. But his whole point is to tear down the word of God. Well, where does that come from? Where does that whole thought, where does that come from?    Oh, verse 28 of chapter one. It says, and since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debate or some version will say a reprobate mind to do what ought not to be done.   They are gossips, slanders, haters of God, insulin, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient appearance, foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. Though they know God's righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them. Did you hear that last part? They give approval to those who practice them. Now, that laundry list that's given there of these type of people, what they practice, you won't find, I wouldn't say you won't find, but rarely will you find someone that practices all of those things. So it's not that these people have to meet all of these, all of these criteria. No, it is that they meet some of them. Really, all you have to do is be one of those things. And he said, folks who are like that. So someone who is insolent and haughty, you know what? They don't mind other people who are like that. If I'm mean and nasty, then you don't let those folks talk that way, give them pieces of your mind, right? If I'm gay, as a matter of fact, we need more of you guys. If I am a gossip, what are gossips like? Other folks to gossip with. Girl, did you hear what I said? Man, did you hear what I said? We do this thing even in Christian circles where we pray gossip. Have you ever heard of that? Pray gossiping where let's get around. Yeah, let's pray for brother so-and-so. Let's pray for sister so-and-so because you know her husband's out there doing so-and-so. Let's pray for, right? We use prayer as a means to bring up somebody's dirt or what's happening in their household to kind of just talk about, well, when I told, we do that all the time, right? And so people who fit in these different categories, they want you to be that same way.  It's not let us alone. It was never about that. It was never about keeping things in the privacy of our own home because when was the last time you, the gay agenda has never been about keeping things hush us. It's always been about advertising it and flaunting it. But more than advertising and flaunting it, they'll say that it is for acceptance, it's not even for acceptance anymore. It's for celebration. But then more than celebrating the LGBTQ community, it's about promoting it. And then more than promoting the LGBTQ agenda, it's about participating in it. We want you to be just like us. That's the whole goal, to participate in our sin. Because what does the devil want?  That's it. That's his whole goal.  There is no, don't have any problems about saying so, no qualms about it. That's where he's going. There is no spiritual struggle with him internally. There is none. Live how you want to live, do what you want to do. I think I saw you, Chess Chamber, I think it was you that asked, or said, what's the purpose of even evangelizing? Well, he didn't do that anyway. If you just happen to show up at church. And for him, his church, or his preaching, or his flock, or just folks who can get together and talk about their lifestyle and affirming, as you already said, in affirming community, what it's like being a gay pastor, even in affirming communities, because that's what they want to be around. Folks who affirm their sin, he can do the same thing. It's like a gathered, a club. It's a club to show how and why we should be better sinners. And guys, again, I'll be, I'll, like they go to Vegas, I'll be here all week. We'll be talking about what's happening with the world and its encroachment on us. So, everybody told you guys, we are, how do I put this? As much power as we are entitled to be around, which is the Holy Spirit, we sometimes forget about the power of the enemy. Let me say this for a second. I want you guys to listen to me for a second. We sometimes make light of the power of the enemy as though Satan has no power whatsoever. As though he's just, just walking around. He's just chilling. He's not doing much. He's just hanging out. He's somewhere smoking a cigarette somewhere. No, he's busy. Now, I want you to think about how busy he is because ask yourself, who has the bigger following? God or Satan? It's not even close. Now, obviously, if God wanted the bigger following, if it was about numbers for God, then he would do something about that. But Satan has the bigger following. And it's not because God has just abdicated any sort of thought or love or compassion towards the people to know. It's because Satan does have some power. To get you to think that something that is bad, to get you to think that it's good or that it's okay, how many of us have fallen into that trap? And then realize after we've done, we can see, sometimes you can see real clearly in the past. I mean, from the back when, like, I can't believe I did that. Now, it was just as bad and sinful and glaringly sinful when you did it as after the fact. Oftentimes, it's the result of the sin that caused you to see clearly. But who caused you to think that? Who, how was that you thought that being with that person who ain't your spouse okay? How was that you thought that, you know what, taking this money right here, that's okay, I'll fix it or lying. Where'd that come from? Remember what Satan does. Matter of fact, there's a video coming up, we're gonna talk about this again, but what Satan does is he'll take your desires. Now, he'll push you on your desires, remove, here she is in the garden. She sees his fruit, don't know what the fruit is, but she sees it and that's what he does with us, right? I always use the little goofy cartoon example.  Well, that's kind of like how it really is, spiritually speaking. And the devil oftentimes, a lot of times, he's one. If the devil were keeping score, he'd be in the lead. Ultimately though, the end is gonna come. The end is going to come for him. The problem is not so much what is gonna happen to Satan but what's gonna happen to the people on this planet, especially those who call themselves believers. And so you got people like him, like Brandon Robertson who are distorting the true gospel and giving, the Bible says they have a form of godliness. Well, even in his case, he didn't even have a form of godliness. He doesn't even have a form of godliness and people are falling for this guy. People are following him and falling for him because what does he call us? He calls us sheep and sheep follow. Sheep follow just about anything. They follow just about anything. And so guys, let's be careful about this person. Make sure, and here's the purpose of this guys. Paul tells us, Paul tells us that we ought to infusion and we ought to not participate in these works of darkness but rather we ought to expose them. Beyond guard guys to expose this stuff. As a matter of fact, I'd be wrong if I didn't put it up so let's just put it up. I do believe that's Ephesians 5. Put it on the screen. He says, verse 11, take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness but instead expose them for it is shameful even to speak up of things that they do in secret. But anything exposed by light, it becomes visible for anything that becomes visible is light.  So guys, that's all I have for this particular person. It was really hard. It really was to look at this person to go to. I told you guys that when I go to TikTok, I deleted TikTok off my phone two or three times and somebody put it back on there. But let's see, let's make sure. My TikTok has been on his best behavior because TikTok can be dangerous. You get all kind of crazy stuff on TikTok. And so let's see, hold on. I don't wanna do that. I wanna push it so you all can, now this is what came up though. I want y'all to see a little cat. Okay, my TikTok tends to be family friendly. It just lets you know what my searching habits are on TikTok, right? So, oh, here's this one, this goofing kid's born in the 80s. So my TikTok tends to be, look, the next one's a dog.  So, yeah, Daryl. So, but what I'm afraid of is the fact that I had to go and look at his videos on TikTok.  You know, I don't want this stuff popping up, right? You know, it is, if I go to Google or to Facebook or someone else and I look up, I don't know, solar panels. Google, YouTube, Facebook, Bing, Bing's all around. Yahoo, I'm getting all these ads about solar panels.  No, we don't need to talk. Baby, I was doing research. The guy going out, witnessing, goes to the club or to the strip club. Oh, we're just here for Jesus. Well, why you got some bills in your hand, boy? So I don't, I didn't want that. So anyway, but yet, you know what? We ought to pray and so, Lord, I do pray that you would speak to this man's heart. I don't know what it's gonna take father for you to deal with him, for you to bring him to you. I pray it happens because it would be awesome, mighty and wonderful for this person, for this person to change his heart and for it to be done graphically in front of us all and that we can all see another person who has changed their heart from the world towards you. So Lord, I ask that in Jesus' name, that would be awesome. That would be awesome. Now, those that do so would be, are few and far between those that are the most known. They're not few and far between for the average person because all of us were like that, not like him, just out there, just remember back in the 70s and 80s, because you didn't see a lot of it. It was around, but when you started seeing more and more gay people come out in the 70s or 80s, they would say, you're just nasty, right? There was a shamefulness to it. Now, I heard someone say this about the LGBTQ community and about these children who are now, they're saying one to identify as boys and girls and someone said, well, and the person felt like he was rebuking me, but I wanted, and I didn't chime back, but I wanted to bring it up on camera. His point was that because it was looked down on frowned upon because it was, you would get the ire of the community if you came out in any sort of way.  It was that bad then, but now the stigma is not as bad. And so that's why you have this coming out now. Well, here's why that makes absolutely no sense. That still would not explain the fact that kids are identifying this way. We didn't have a rash of kids even then when it was illegal, not illegal, but just looked down upon. We didn't have kids coming out saying that they identify as a boy or a girl and they were not identifying or want to be something different. No. So his logic fails, it makes no sense. But what's happening now is you got parents and pastors who are pushing this, who are preaching it, who are encouraging sin. And that's what he's doing. Brandon Robertson is encouraging sin. And he can go ahead and keep encouraging sin. He'll find himself in the place where he's going to regret it with a lot of the folks where the Bible says there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Though he disagrees with the fact that there is a hell and he does, but he's going to find himself there. I hate to think that anybody would be there, but I'm not blind to what the scripture say and that there are going to be a lot of people. There'll be a lot of people waiting to say, oh, we got to come over here, you can't listen to me on the radio. No, man, you can't. Okay, I'm going to assume. I'm going to assume, where is it at? What's going on my screen? I'm looking at something, guys. I'm trying to make sure that, okay, cool. I'm just assuming that you guys caught it. I can't even see the thing. I got to turn this light up so I can see. Okay. Be upset, guys. Be angry, but sin not, meaning leave the profanity for the world. Amen. So not going to ban you, but don't do that, okay? Don't, it makes you want to cuss, I get it. Makes you want to holler. But I believe that us as believers can operate in this world without acting like the world. I don't cuss. Times I want to cuss. I had a guy in prison, he was my, he was my cusser. He's my cuss, he's my cellmate.  And so he'd look at me and say, you want to cuss, don't you? And he would cuss. He wouldn't say, but he would cuss him out for me. I was like, I don't need, and so there are times where I do want to cuss somebody out and shake them and choke them, but I don't have to. God will take care of that. Amen. All right, guys. So I've been told that I'm not allowed to do my dramatic exits. They don't want me to just cut folk off and just hit the outro. I don't know why, I don't know how else I had to do it, but I'm gonna do my best not to just hit this little dramatic outro. But I will see you guys tomorrow. Tomorrow, yeah, I will see you guys tomorrow. I will see you guys on Saturday. So that being said, guys, God bless you. I will see you tomorrow. Amen.


and thanks for joining us. My name is Christabel Darcy. I'm co-convener of the Northern Territory Branch of the Australian Evaluation Society, along with Alison Reedy, who is also here today. Give a wave, Alison. As we get settled in, please introduce yourself in the chat, include your name and the indigenous country that you're calling from. I know for some people, this is your first Australian Evaluation Society event, so welcome. And it's great to see some old friends and colleagues here too. All right, so let's see if we can start the chat. I'll get us started. Lovely, starting to see them come through now. Thank you. Great. Lots of people from Larakia country. That's good to see. Ah, now we're getting from other parts of Australia. Fantastic. Nunga. Lovely. Welcome. It's really good. We've got people from all over Australia today, so thank you. It's really good to get a feel for who is here today. So in terms of housekeeping, I'd like to let you know that this session is being recorded today.  And as we go along, please put any questions that you have in the chat and I'll facilitate questions at the end. So I'd like to start today by acknowledging that I'm hosting this call from Larakia country. I acknowledge the Larakia people as the traditional owners of the Darwin region and pay my respects to elders past, present and emerging of the many countries that people are calling from today. And I particularly want to acknowledge the people of vintage country for sharing their story today. And today we're talking about the benefits and the challenges associated with community-based evaluations. And we're joined by John Gunther and Robin Ober. And if technology allows, we'll be joined by some community researchers, Dean and Conrad too. So John Gunther is an evaluator and researcher with 20 years experience working in the Northern Territory. He's a non-indigenous outsider in most of the evaluations that he works on and is currently the research leader for education and training with Bachelor Institute. Robin Ober is a marble durable woman from Far North Queensland and she has worked extensively in Indigenous education for over 30 years and currently works as an Indigenous Research Fellow at Bachelor Institute. Robin has been and is currently involved in a number of projects on Indigenous education, leadership, language and linguistics including evaluation reviews. And with that, I'll hand over to John and Robin. Thank you. Robin, if you want to take it over for a couple of slides, that'd be great. Thanks. Yeah, sure. Hello, everyone. Thank you for that introduction, Christabel. We are, like we said, we are on Larakia Country doing this presentation. So again, I give my thanks and my respect as is our cultural protocol that we are meeting on Larakia Country and I pay my respects to our elders, past, present and emerging. I also recognise and acknowledge any of our Indigenous researchers, scholars, academics who are joining us today as well as our non-Indigenous colleagues and pay my respects to your countries and nations that you represent today. And I want to give special acknowledgement to our Benning people who are from Western Arnhem Land and from, you know, these are the people we've worked with and I give my respect and pay my respects to their elders, past, present and emerging. This is a map of just the communities that we've worked in over the past few years and this is what we will be focusing on today and we'll be hearing more from Conrad and Dean about the Evaluation Review of Nahuatikan. But I'll just ask John to show on the map, Gubble-Wannamu, Manmoy and Mamadawiri. So these are the three homeland centres that we've worked closely with in the past three to four years on this review and worked closely with our Benning researchers, our community researchers, without them. This would not have happened. Our community researchers have been so valuable and their knowledge base extensive and deep. So like John said at the beginning, we were really the facilitators and they really took the lead and control of this with us supporting throughout. So we've also got an ABC News Story link there that we will pass on to the team for you to look at in your own time. We won't look at it now because of time constraints but it is really something special to look at and that'll give you like grassroots stories from local Benning people about education. Thanks, John. So back in 2018, I think it was, I was asked by somebody to have a cup of coffee here at CDU and to talk about the possibilities of doing some evaluative work with Neuartic and Academy. At the time, Neuartic and Academy was a fairly new, independent school that had an MOU working with Gumbalanya School just starting out really on a long journey and they decided that they wanted to build evaluation into the development of their school. And so Robert and I went on a journey with the school and in particular, our community research team, you can see Dean there in the photo and you can see Tara as well who was working with us to learn from and to help the Academy learn from and develop its governance, academic and community engagement processes and to determine what the outcomes and values of its work are. That was really what we were setting out to do. And we set this up as a largely qualitative and participatory action research process that ended up running over three years and just one step at a time, doing that planning, reflecting, then implementing some things and then gathering some data and then going back to the cycle over that period of time, drawing on Indigenous standpoints, particularly from the community researcher side of things. And wherever possible, we were working in language, in Gunwinku language. The report itself is a nice looking document and you can download that on the link when you get the PowerPoint to have a look at with some great pictures in it but also some really useful information about what we did in the evaluation of Neuartic Academy and how we worked with community-based researchers to make that happen or how, yeah, they were the ones that were leading the process. Basically, we were there sort of working in the background to make some other things happen. So I want to give, I'll start with Dean giving him an opportunity to share from your perspective, Dean. Some of the things that you learned during this process of going through an evaluation and what it meant to you, you've been involved with community research for years and years and years, I know, going back to the ArpNet days, but I'm thinking here about this particular piece of work that we did. What are your thoughts and reflections on it, Dean? Thank you, John. Look, I have been involved with research network for many years. My first research network was a Commonwealth program, part of the community engagement programs that regards to education process of indigenous people. These practices of our community researchers brought us, brought me into something that never thought about it before, about community researchers, but time-to-time I've gone through this process and I first set it up with a groups within Charles Darwin University. It's what we all call Aboriginal Practitioners Network. Because of research, looking at the education process, I think it's important to be aware of this process looking at the education process. My mind started to look into where we had external researchers coming in and collecting information about education, not only just education, but other things as well. But this process with our education, we first started to think about setting up our own independent school within these remote areas, especially the three new schools that now will make it happen. Our involvement is to teach young ones and let the elder people know what it's meant about the research. We delivered research in our own language. We told our elders that this is a research, is we are developing that, we are collecting all information. Indigenous, how do we see a education process has been going for the last decades. A lot of the information that we gather, it's a voice of the people. What do they want? How they wanna see? How they wanna be involved? What area that need to be seen is important where the education is in place. We talked about Indigenous education. What is Indigenous education? And we're trying to compare with Western educations. Our Indigenous education that need to be brought it out to the mainstream. What we're doing now is gathering external information the way it should be done. But a lot of the information that we gather, it's a people's voice, people's opportunities that they wanna see that education processing in place, not only just in a growth areas, such as Medingrida, such as Guambalanya, or such criminal college or universities where our children are being participated and studying and learning. Why our research is being taught is to deliver this education information to our people and get their voices, what do they want? People really, really appreciate it how we collect information. People really said, this is a story that our stories need to be shown in many areas, especially our education department, also especially our community education programs. It's about the fact that we're getting this information. It's a people's want to see how this research needs to be taken place. Of course, when we're talking to our own people, we get so much feedback from our people because it's an opportunity, but a lot of the time external researchers would come in and take a note, and a lot of the time people don't tell them about what really they want because they're seeing their researchers coming from elsewhere rather than seeing their researchers from in our own land, such as our own people, indigenous people doing this research network. And they can give us a lot of information that they needed. One of the three main school that we wanted to see that education happen in a homeland was back in the 80s, all the homeland education was pulled down through the main growth areas. Even though there was some small communities that education process was still carrying on, even though that they had had the system has changed from the community, a homeless community schools where previously, not long ago, people was receiving education two days a week. And that's not enough. People wanted five, seven days, five days a week, educations. And that's what driven our people within our plateau, those three main school, people really, really want to see that five days education need to be taken place rather than two days education. People that teach it would flow in into homeland. Normally, they used to teach two days and they would go back and leaving homeland without our teachers. Actually, they had a teaching ice at the, but they haven't been supported as well. Now that we have this unique three school, our communities, our children are very, very happy because this is very important because our wedge catch is based in the bush rather than based in the community. Because our children can get a benefit seeing the views of their families are working within a land management space or seeing their families working within the education space in the homeland. So the child is getting those learning, learning, but from that time period when it's going through the school to able to grow up being 17, 18, that would get a proper jobs and continue sharing and learning with other children as well and other adults. Every elders now they came forward and talking about this education process. It took us a long, long time to convince our government to able to see the education space within a homeland because it is very, very important. People still living in a homeland without even our teachers. People now, our experience now is being extended to other communities such as Maningira because they're seeing a value of how the school is what is happening. Also being a researcher, our own people getting collecting all the information in the homelands what do they know about the schools? A lot of the elders when we talk to them about education, what was they education in the past? So there was a great likes of information was getting that and getting our people to explore the benefit of education within our homelands. That's fantastic, Dean. It looks like Conrad has just joined us. Hey Conrad, can you hear me? Hey Conrad, can you hear me? Hello. Thank you for joining us and Dean has just shared I don't know whether you've been online or not but Dean has just shared a little bit about his experience and the importance of having community researchers in the context of homelands schooling. I'm just wondering if you would just like to share a few thoughts about your involvement over the years as doing research or evaluation and how that has made a difference to the places that you work and live in. How's it made a difference to Mamadowari and the school there? Conrad, can you reflect a little bit on your role? First year when this started, I mean, when Papa Warnamiel started independent school in Papa Warnamiel, it was pretty small. And then us at Mamadowari and Manmoy had no one to go with schools. And at that time, it was Conrad Warnians held that involvement with our station schools. And then we wanted five days, they tried their best to give us five days but they only gave us two days. And then my experience when we turned that thing over having independent with Papa Warnamiel and having two other schools, Manmoy and Mamadowari, it pretty much changed. Everything changed. The whole school education changed. We've got facilities, we've got teachers, you know, teachers staying there at homeland where they continue teaching during Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday and Friday. And sometimes teachers get involved with weekends, fishing, hunting and then as more we see that it's still like education because with all of us, all being people, we were educated through bush, hunting, fishing and animals and seasons. And that's the role we were willing to commit with our kids and that basically giving us 50, 50 on our terms of education and it's doing very well now. And we've got kids now traveling other communities, other countries and in a process of learning different culture. And with this experience, kids really enjoying and us adults, you know, we see that very positive things coming in for our kids' education. As Dean was explaining how he sees and how I see it and our valuations keeps that very close to our small, you know, our homelands because that value in our communities where our kids, you know, value themselves, who they are and what their representation to their homelands. Yeah, that's great. Great, thanks Conrad. Olga, I see you just sort of popped your face on the screen there. I just want to ask you just briefly as effectively the principal of the three schools reflect a little bit on the evaluation and the impact that it's had on the school? Yeah, thanks, John. And look, Dean and Conrad very well spoken and there was one word that kind of stood out for me that both Dean and Conrad used quite extensively and that's value. You know, where do we place value on what education looks like? And I think the greatest thing about the evaluation is not only did it give us a guide in terms of our strategic planning but also, you know, we were able to get a clear understanding of what community, parents and students value in terms of what their education looks like. And I mean, Conrad and Dean have already spoken, you know, quite extensively about that but what that's meant is that with our planning we can hand on heart say that, you know, we've got this amazing document, this evaluation document now that, you know, is guiding us and we're going to use that over the next few years to be able to make sure that, you know, that that value is where it's supposed to be. So that involved, I guess, redefining kind of what success looks like. A lot of the time education success is very much or what it looks like is driven from non-indigenous cultures and, you know, accessing university courses and perhaps sometimes there's, you know, a mismatch or not a strong link between what success on community and what indigenous people value of success looks like and what's on the ground. And the biggest thing about value we've found is, you know, there's also a really big push to make sure that, you know, there's higher attendance rates, you know, and there's always this talk about attendance and what value has done, you know, putting the value in the right places and putting resources into where people's values lies means that we get engagement. And engagement, you get attendance, you get families and communities and students who want to be in that space because what's in that space is valuable and engaging to them. That's a great point, Olga, thank you. And often evaluations are focused on outcomes and as you said, there are things like attendance and grades and whatever else. But this evaluation very quickly morphed into a focus on values and what was important for bidding people in their communities and having Dean Conrad, Tara and a few others on board as researchers, we were able to get to the heart of what values people wanted to see in their school and their education. Dean Conrad, you got any comment about that? We value this education process, we're seeing a two ways process should be taught in this sort of space, traditional educations and Western educations. We know, I know when I look at the community side, such as Manning Ritter or Montelli, children sometimes don't have an access, access of moving out in a bush and looking at or learning of some traditional cultural practices. We're seeing a family talking to their children as well because what they're seeing is what's happening within our three main schools because our children are very, very happy, children are more taught in both world, traditional practices and Western practices. For us as researchers, we value ourselves because we are there for them. We're getting information, we're collecting those information and we're delivering this information and documenting so that in the future we can follow or future for our children can see those documents have been written and for them to able to use those information, seeing that importance of education should be placed in a home plan as well. Great, thank you. I'm just gonna move on a little bit now as I'm conscious of time and I'll bring Dean and Conrad back into the story in a moment, but I just wanted to sort of think about this kind of evaluative work from a few different perspectives and one is an ethical perspective. And anyone that's worked in a university or an institute like Bachelor knows what the word ethics means. But sometimes it means getting an approval from an ethics committee. But in a broader sense, what we've been able to learn I guess is that that piece of paper that comes and says, Tic, you can go out and do research because you've got clearance is really not the same as working ethically and the importance I think of using binning speaking Gunwinku language on their country to engage with community members is an ethical process in itself outside of or alongside of the ethical clearance process that happens through a committee. And it's important to work this way because those of us who are outsiders, myself and even Robin in this case, we don't know what the protocols are. We don't know what the values are that people cherish in their community. We don't know the kinship connections and we don't know a lot about the history of the place but our community researchers do. And it gives them, I think as Dean and Conrad have said a space for binning to voice their opinions in a safe way. But for those of us who are outsiders, it takes a bit of getting used to the, I guess the uncertainty that comes along with working in these spaces, uncertainty for us as outsiders. Sometimes you just don't know what's going to happen. You don't even know whether or not you're going to get to where you're going to go to collect the data. And especially during the COVID period, there were times where things were always up in the air. Robin, I don't know whether you can tell the story about the time we went out to go over one of you when COVID was on. Yeah, definitely. I think I talked earlier with John that being okay with uncertainty and when we got ready for trips, we would do like this loose plan, I'd call it planning loosely because it was pretty hard to really put down concrete things that we were going to do because you just don't know what's around the corner. You don't know what's happening. And so in the case of COVID, I remember the pilot flying in, we kind of got little pings up in the air that something had happened in Darwin. But we kind of, okay, we're almost here. We're ready to land at Gava Wanamu. We landed and soon as we landed, we had the Ranger, the Darla Ranger coming in the Troopy and just had her hands up, parked away from us and said, stop. There's been a COVID case up in Darwin. You have to jump back on the plane and go back home and we can't risk you coming here. John and I had just come from Darwin and I think one of the other researchers was with us on that plane. And so that was, we had to go back to corner square one and start again and think about how we're going to do our data collection. But you just plan loosely and often we get there, we plan from A to B. This is what we wanna achieve at the end of this visit. And we usually get there, but sometimes it's a little bit stop and start. It's down the detour, up the hill, round the corner and then we'll get there eventually. But that's the beauty of it. And I love working with our binning researchers and I mainly work with the woman. John would work with the men, but it was also just learning as we go along. And so even the issue with the relationships and kinships, it wasn't as straightforward as I used to think, oh, okay, we can all just talk together. But I remember a time when we had to wait for a certain person to come and set up the meeting and set up the yarning around the, around the weaving circle.  So I had to learn along the way. I had to be that continual learner, even though I've worked out in Western Arnhem Land previously, but it was really, you know, you're continually learning and I've learned so much from our people out there. Fantastic. One of the beautiful things that I find when we are out, as Robin has just said, the learning that goes on, the learning that goes on for us as outsiders, but you can see the learning that goes on among the community researchers as well as they sink through some of the issues from their own perspective. But the good thing about working with community people is that it's not just an exercise of gathering information for a report. There's a whole lot of skill development and relationship building that goes on and opportunities for sharing the stories that come out of the work that you do and opportunities for writing, opportunities for analysis, interpretation and language work. It's rich when you have a team that's made up of people like Dean and Conrad and a few of the others and Rosemary's in there in a picture there with Robin. Very, very rich kind of work. Conrad, I just wonder if you can reflect on your experience either at Wipsey or in South Africa when you went on to the conference there, you might need to unmute yourself. Well, maybe Dean, if you, oh, I don't count Conrad, you're right. Yeah, yeah. Since Adelaide, I think in then South Africa and then I think I went to Canada. That's right. For the name of that Canada thing. My experience with Canada, there's a whole lot of people talking about climate change and all that other stuff. And then we produce what we do in Australia, what our goals and achievements and having that over there talking about how we work and how, and learning from them, that's whole new experience level of experience learning about climate change. And then when I was in Africa, a lot of countrymen out there in Africa, which is, they still, education, it's really hard. But at Canada, education, it's more open. And then when I was in Adelaide, having that Wipsey, the whole indigenous programs are, it's showing how we can make this possible for us, some indigenous people in Northern Territory and in Adelaide and other countries. You know, cause I'll call it, and first of all, as mob, the way we live in our countries and how we recognize it. And then that makes us look better if we work with other educational programs, like having schools there, learning about English. And some kids do want to learn other languages, like, you know, some kids might want to learn Italian or other languages. Cause I heard some kids can speak other languages. They are trying to learn what language I'm not good at. Anyway, these other languages, it's really hard for me to decide. And only kids know it. And they always, you know, give us a story about what languages they're talking about. I've got my nephew, he studies Chinese sometimes, and then he's trying to learn Chinese.  And that's all a lot of things. Yeah, yeah, brilliant. Thanks, Conrad. I guess the thing about these experiences that you've had in Adelaide, Africa, Canada, and Dean, you've been to Ecuador as well, that they do cost. And you've got a plan to do these things. They're really valuable exercises. But, you know, if you're putting together a budget for an evaluation, and you want to do this stuff, you have to put it into the plan at the beginning of the process. And we were pretty fortunate with this, with the evaluation that Robert and I and the team were involved with for Neuartica is that we had the opportunity to put our wish list into the budget at the beginning. And because it was funded through philanthropy, we didn't get the same pushback from a government tender that you would sometimes get if you were doing this sort of more commercially. And they allowed us the freedom to be able to say, yes, we want to build in three conferences, one overseas, one and two Australian ones. And we did that. They allowed for us to make a nice looking report and to create videos and all sorts of things. And it comes about as a result of just planning to do things in the right way the first time at the beginning. And I'd encourage anyone that sort of thinking about doing an evaluation in communities is to put those things into the budget and then push back against those that say, do we really need that? Because we do need that in order to get the best out of the evaluation. It's not just a report. The evaluation is an opportunity to make a difference and to change the way that we work and to change the structures that we work in. But there are cost and resource implications for that. The other thing I'd say too is that we had incredible support from the school. And in particular, I just want to acknowledge Olga's contribution, the way that nothing was too hard for Olga. It was like, we're gonna make this happen one way or another. And that sort of partnership that you can have with a client is just beautiful because it's no longer just a client anymore. There's a relationship that's been built up over several years that you become partners in a process. And I guess you can't really plan for that, but it's a beautiful way of being able to work when you've got that sort of strength of the relationships. I just want to finish with this last slide here. And Robin, I'm just wondering again, another story from Gauvalonamu. A little bit about risks. Can you sort of tell the story about sitting at the airport at Gauvalonamu? Right, okay. So the COVID one was one story. And I think that photo, there's us actually jumping back on the plane to go back to Darwin. But when you're traveling and a lot of you probably know this already is, you know, sometimes there's heaps of stuff happening in community life. And so one of the risks is making sure that there's somebody to pick you up out there. And so the last trip we went out, we was, nobody was there to meet us at Gauvalonamu.  And I sat at the airstrip here and the pilot eventually flew up again and just let, you know, try to fly down the lane to let them know that nobody had picked us up. But they're the kind of things you don't plan for. They're the things that you just gotta take it as it comes and you don't panic, you don't get, you know, I've learnt not to get anxious now and just take it in my stride. The other thing was, that was one issue. And the other thing with planes was they forgot to pick us up. So we were left out of a community and we had to stay there for another night, which kind of worked out fine because we got some more interviews and yarns done with some young, young fellows there. But it was like, oh, we didn't book use for a return flight. So we stayed at, I think it was... Manmoy. Manmoy, yeah, for the night. So that's, you know, those things that you take into consideration, that's what I'm talking about, that planning loosely, going with the flow, gauging, putting your feelers out, knowing when to move forward, knowing when to stand back and distance yourself and that and learning, being a continual learner all the time. And from that experience, that prepares you for the next visit or the next chapter or season in indigenous research. So very exciting times. Exciting times, yes. And I guess the point of this is just to say that there are risks with this kind of work. It's not...  Or as I experienced in Manangrida, a dog attacking you and sending you to the hospital, you know, I had no idea that that could possibly happen to me, you know. And there are these things that you just don't think about when you're doing this kind of work, particularly as an outsider. And you have to be mindful of all of that. I do want to leave some time for questions. So I'm just going to... I think, Alison, I think you've been sort of monitoring the chat. If there are any questions that people might want to ask, then either of us or Conrad and Dean. Lovely. I've got cut off. I've got cut off. I'm back on again. Oh, good. Welcome back. Welcome back.  So thank you. Yes, you go ahead, Alison. Sorry, Christabel. Yeah, we do have a comment and a question from Akshi. So the comment is it's interesting work and an initiative to make sure our work is relevant, efficient and effective, especially the community lead, community-based approach. And the question is, I'm curious about the journey of the community engagement process. Was it challenging to involve people in the first place? If it was, what strategies were employed to foster meaningful community engagement in the research evaluation initiative? Robin, do you want to comment? Yeah, this is probably a question for Conrad and Dean. But I don't think... I think when... I think the beauty of this and the value of this, we've been talking about value, is that the very fact that we took a step back, John and I, and was able to create the space for our local community-based and bidding researchers to take the lead on this, that's a win, you know? That's like a no-brainer because, like Dean said at the beginning, it's bidding people, talking to bidding people. They have the relationships, they have the connections, they have the knowledge. To me, people were very engaging. I can, you know, speak for the Daluk, the woman who I work with. There was such a great effort that went out and we went to people's places and sitting around the campfire and things like that. There was no hesitation. And you know why? Because education is very important to the people on the homelands because of the hardship they've been through, because of the fight, over 20 years' fight. This was something that was close to their heart. And so from me as an outsider, coming in and looking in, I didn't see that as an issue. People wanted to talk, they wanted to engage, they wanted to give their stories. But with this way of working, it was actually talking to their own family, relatives, bidding people. And so I think from the start, if you can start like that and work from a strength-based approach. So not external people coming in and saying, this is how you do it, this is the right way to go. No, no, we work from what we have there, the strengths and the knowledge-based that we have on the ground. And I think that that set the tone for the whole evaluation. So I didn't see it as a big, big issue because it was bidding people, working with bidding people. I mean, for my perspective, being as a researcher, I've learned a lot, communicating both sides, non-indigenous people and our own people, just to getting a message across and identifying the best practices, best way to communicate with our people. Being a researcher of doing a research as well, not just on any, in a growth area. We're seeing, what I'm being seen that research, you gotta start thinking of moving that research where people are in homelands. In this way, you get a better understanding how people live, what they do every day in their life, how children are being educated. We stay at school for our children to continue education process in five days education. So in my understanding, the best practices being a researcher, there's two things that we need to understand. It's a people, why you wanna lead, do you wanna have that in a community, talking to the people in a community and getting information or taking those information outside of the community, out in a homelands. Many, many times research network has been done in the community base, especially in larger communities, growth areas. Nothing is ever done out in a homelands. So what happened now that we're seeing that this task as a research and being a researcher, because there's more information, you get out in the bush then in a growth areas. People needs that education, especially homelands. One other thing that I was really, really impressed is elder people ask me, can you help me to bring education school for our children in the future? Well, that was my work to follow up and to chase it. And I did a lot of hard bargaining and getting education processes happening in our community. But Dean, there's a question in the chat window which I think you're answering actually without even having a look at it. The question is a great example of engagement being done the right way, supporting local ownership and control. Well, hang on, sorry. No, that was a comment. Can you share a bit more about how you share the findings of the evaluation with people who are part of the interviews? And I think you've just answered that question from Melanie that you see it as your job to do that. You're the one that's actually doing the sharing back into a community. Am I right, Dean? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, for my people to see me as being a researcher, they're quite happy because I can talk in language. I can relate to their understanding as well for education process. So there's no, no, we don't see, or people don't see that problem because they know we have been talking to each other. But what we wanna see the education for the future of our children. So that's how that when we do research with our own people, we don't necessarily see a bad things. And it's a good thing because we're getting that voice directly. But also we have a vote, a cultural avoidance. We know that cultural affiliation that we talk to the right people. We know there's rules that we need to talk to the right people in education. Sometimes we leave a room for our ladies to work with the ladies. And there's a room for a binning room, spice. So both sides are not being seen as a bad idea. This is a really good idea because the protocols is there that we always follow rules who we talked with. Dean and Conrad, I'd love to have a follow-up question here. We've got a question from Emily around balancing the Western and indigenous ways. And I noted that came through in the report as well around balancing the two worlds or the vintage and balanda ways. I really love your thoughts on how to bring those two worlds together. We have to stand on our two freedom, feed that information to cross borders.  And making sure that families who I'm talking to has an answer to, you know, has an answer to give us and so it can be documented and put it in the book. Because they're also worried about this education for a long, long time. They want to get their facts straight by talking to us, this is what we want. So I don't see any problems with, you know, or people don't see any problems talking to them and getting that information because they want to deliver that information to us so it can be recorded. Are you able to talk? Or I think you're muted, but not muted. We can't hear you. I think we've lost the audio link there. Yeah, our shame. But I think, I mean, I guess from my perspective, Conrad, people like Conrad and Dean are very comfortable and competent sort of working in those both ways, more than I am. And, you know, having those sets of skills that I don't have is just fantastic. It's gold. Very, very valuable. I still can't hear Conrad though. Can't hear you, Conrad.  For us, we carry two worlds. One world is... Hello. Oh, you're back, Conrad. It's my earphones. That's where the mood was active. Anyway, I was going to say two things. Yeah. Very first questions that was raised before these questions.  Acknowledgement is everything that we do in our culture and in our beliefs that other countrymen share their knowledge by immigration.  You know, I... You know, it's... Like, when I've learned English, it was really hard for me to learn it, but I have to learn my language first because I had that access when I was reading by my own language and pronounced my own language. That was so easy. So I've learned my language, bilingual language studies. And soon as I went to English, it took me two years to learn English very quick and fast. And when I got English and learned Gunwingu and English at the same time, and when I got it, got that both together, it made sense. And, you know, now I see what's in terms of what I'm asking in my language and then when I want to interpret what it means, some Gunwingu doesn't really fit with English, but one word of Gunwingu might say different other things. In English, it's very simple and it's easy. There's all kinds of things that doesn't really fit in with Gunwingu, but they do have that same sense of explanation. And, yeah. Thanks Conrad. I think we're just about out of time. We are. Any closing comments before we wrap it up? I just want to acknowledge, particularly Dean, Dean is about to become acknowledged as a doctor through Charles Darwin University.  It's just, I mean, you both of you have always been professors as long as I've known you, but I think it's just a great acknowledgement from CDU that you will be acknowledged with a doctorate. I think next month is it, Dean? Yeah, next month. Yeah. Well done. I was really proud. It took me a long time, but at least, you know, I've got what I've wanted. Yes. And continuance are worth very important on. Fantastic. Yeah. I think on behalf of everybody on this call today, I would just like to say thank you to all of our presenters today. John, Robin, Dean and Conrad Olga. Thank you for your contributions as well. It's been fantastic to hear from your yourselves about the journey that you've been on. And there's lots of messages coming up in the chat. Your presentation today has been really appreciated. So thank you very much for making the time today. Really appreciate it.