Welcome into the original gangsters podcast. I am your host Scott Bernstein along with my co-host co-conspirator partner in crime The doctor Jimmy Bucci Lotto. Hi everyone. We're very excited to have in studio right now Daryl Chambers who has the Rare honor to be What I consider a double o.g. I wear the where the original gangsters podcast and we're all about celebrating the OG's Well, Daryl is an OG in two separate Arenas he's an OG when it comes to the world of professional boxing and the Cronk gym, which is Iconic when you're talking about the world of pro boxing especially in the city of Detroit Boxing in the city Detroit are synonymous with with the Cronk gym brand Manny Stewart Tommy Ernst Daryl was there from the very start and then eventually transitioned into the street and became quite the the gentleman businessman drug kingpin Who picked up a lot of the pieces from the crazy 1980s? The Wild West if you will With a lot of high-profile violent drug groups that were killing each other Daryl kind of, you know laid back in the cut if you will and when all those guys Either died or went to prison Daryl kind of picked up the pieces and kind of put everything back together But in a much more professional manner and then this is what we'll get into I'm gonna turn it over to Daryl in a second he really became a Prisoner of war if you will in the war on drugs because although Daryl will tell you that he was a wholesale cocaine trafficker He was not someone that deserved to do life in prison and the government had an agenda my research has has Showed me and I've had this confirmed on multiple fronts that the government wanted to go after the Cronk gym They wanted to go after Manny Stewart. They wanted to go after Tommy Ernst not for drug dealing, but for helping certain high-profile Gangland figures in Detroit not Daryl guys like Maserati Rick Carter and Demetrius Holloway that were spending a lot of time Around the Cronk gym and around the Cronk gym fighters. They were convinced that Manny and Tommy and some of those guys were were helping launder drug money and they saw Daryl and and Some people that Daryl was with as a way to bring those guys down and when Daryl didn't really have anything to give them In terms of any cooperation. They they decided to jam Daryl and send him to prison for the rest of his life Fortunately, he was able to get out of for 26 years and now he's here to tell tell us his story. Thank you for joining us Daryl Chambers Okay Appreciate that. I don't know if I was on cue there. Yeah, but yeah, thanks a lot and I understand what you're saying It's like wow host there's a blessing just to be here, you know But but you did a quarter century In prison on a nonviolent drug offense. Yeah first offender first offender Again not saying that What you did didn't deserve some form of punishment But to think that if there hadn't been certain intervening factors, you could have died in prison It's really it's perplexing and again to me reemphasizes the fact that Every in terms of the war on drugs, which has been I mean had I guess officially has been going on since the Nixon administration Yeah, that's when they amped it on officially for even longer. I mean everybody has lost Yeah, there's no winner drugs one the war is over drugs one And and we've talked about we were just talking about someone earlier today and we won't mention names But but people were involved in armed robbery like real violent crimes and and received less Time in prison. Yeah, then what you did. Yeah, and I that seems like that doesn't seem Like it seems like the criminal justice system is not working the way cases you have People and I'll the most famous instance is Al Capone who's put it put in prison on a nonviolent offense but You know, it's well known in law enforcement circles in the public that they are a violent criminal and they have a Laundry list of bodies Darrell is the polar opposite of that Darrell's Darrell or people that Darrell was Connected with on the street were not convicted or convicted or connected to really any violence at all And he was still being treated as if he was a Maserati Rick Carter or he was a Demetrius Holloway and Darrell will tell us he knew those guys and and I had come up around those guys, but Their business Methodologies were totally different. Yeah, Darrell. Can you expand on that? It was completely different. It's like I came up I come up off the east side of Detroit, you know So, you know, that's kind of like a rough neighborhood everything but I started boxing. I was like 11 years old So, you know, my thing was like going to the gym come back and that was like and that was like was great You know, but it's still I know the game because I lived in you know the neighborhood but boom I just go straight to the gym and stuff and Like you say, I'm not I'm the first person to say this. We need the government. Don't get it twisted Police force and everything too much chaos, but it's just like the things that they do is Like I tell you a quick story a friend of mine when I first went to jail. So I'm in jail like about five six years friend He's always send me money.  I'm good I got food out of love. No man. No, I'll stop by your house and look out for your daughter and everything I say, okay cool my kids and stuff.  He got out of jail Turn around got back got my information again and start sending money again and on the phone one time I talked to him. He said, hey, man, you know, what's so crazy, man I said, well, he said I killed two people man. He said I killed two people got convicted of murder When did did I think seven or twelve years in the state? He said, no, what's crazy? I said, what is that?  Is that crazy? They weren't sending you to club fed you were in Leavenworth. Yeah, you know, we're in I Started in tear hunting was so crazy. I mean that you weren't some pretty bad bad one like at that time tear her and Mary was One of two worstest places my man was a lockdown, you know, I'm saying didn't tear her was a file I think they call it level five, but I went in there with six points That's like unheard of high count points when I went to jail So what they had do I had four points what they had to do had to give me two more point by me having license to put Me into a the hot which called a penitentiary high level dependent So I was a first offender now inviting crime so I go on four points and they give me two more exit points Just to put me there. So I stayed there for a while and Then I left there then he sent me to Mary. I'm now they sent me to Colorado and Florence Colorado this time was the next has This is like there so in Florence Colorado. You got the super max which is underground underground and then you have the regular Max yeah, but it's the high security regular. Yeah, so they sent me there And I stayed up think about eight nine years, but I stayed not stay shot free. No shots period You know, I ain't I'm going then they didn't send me to Mary. I'm and Mary had just came off of Being like a locked down prison and they they they put it as a fci But now they put it as a penitentiary, but they said but they let but they made a fci level So you had the same thing, but you just one lock in your cell all time So they the CO's like on you like oh man everywhere you move they was worse than To her for really I can't imagine and I've talked to Darrell on a number of occasions. I talked to him when he was locked up I wrote some stuff that I Dare I say helped get him out to bring attention to his case and I just can't imagine staring at life in prison Under the circumstances that you were under and not losing all faith in humanity and life and and for you to be able to come out the other side of it and Have so have so much positive energy And and being able to write the second chapter. It's it's inspiring for for someone that that has studied you and studied your case and I'm excited to share with everyone What kind of the the ins and outs of Darrell chambers, but it's really a tribute to the type of man You are that you're sitting here and and still smiling about it Yeah, thank you for that though And it's like for real when I first went to jail I was kind of like kind of sour about it Oh man, I just happened all this and then but I ran across a lot of older castles I did a lot of time and they say man, whatever you do you better do the time I'll let the time do you because you man you go you stuck I was saying what the dumbest they said man, look at you here on the CCE now violent crime And it's the first offending. He said man, you don't even supposed to be here. That's the way some telling you stuck And I was like, what do you mean stuck?   I had a probation and I During the course of this between 1980. They said 1988 to 1994 whatever it was They had standing on the street to turn around and say that I was sending him out of town Which I wasn't sending him out of town.  So, you know, you know, you know, I'm saying but like with him I wouldn't you know fold it because I know what I was into But if he did and then like the government had him and it's like and by him saying that I was sending him out of town That put me in the category one. So in the category one, it's natural life across the board And then it's natural right on my drug amount and then that was like hocus pocus You know what I'm saying? Because when they raided they raided like five different houses and everything and my mother house my brother's house my girlfriend's house her Brother and they they did a what you call rubber stamp everywhere the government said I was there They just gave a warrant for it. So they went in and then out of the whole thing. They I think they found the I want to say maybe a half a kilo of powder Maybe two ounces two pounds of weed and maybe I think maybe a quarter of something like that crack You know what I'm saying? And they gave me and in my case they and they gave me uh They gave me the count of a ton in a quarter of powder cocaine Wow, where do it come from? You know what I'm saying? And it was ghost drug, you know what I'm saying? And it's all what the government just put together and it was in like in the beginning of my case It was they had said, uh, I mean when they asked me a plea This is what they say they get bring to the thing and please I said All right, I'm because I'm thinking I said I'll take a plea man because I have you know, I was doing something wrong You know I'm saying so I said I'll take a plea but then when they brought me the plea was so My first I was like man come on with this and the plea was uh If they they gave me a 60 month cap that mean you can't do over Five years and then they say if Tommy or imagine Stewart convicted And I say convicted so I'm wondering where they put that play in there. I'm looking at this Yeah, if Tommy if you tell on the manager Stewart for Uh, what do you say manager Stewart for money laundry? And you tell on Tommy Herron for fine action drug dealer We'll give you a 60 a 60 month cap and if any one of them get convicted Then you won't do them but like two and a half 30 is 32 months or something like that. I'm like I'm looking at I'm on where they get this whole story if I'm right here So I'm like and what is y'all talking about? I said, well if you if anyone of them get convicted That this would happen and then we'll put you in the they had a thing out Protect the custody and they say we'll move your whole family and we'll give you a check And I'm looking I'm like So now I'm kind of mad though because where this part come from any time I give me life So to prosecute I'm like I'm burning them. So he tell me that I said I said, okay This is what I do man. You're right. I say that this is the stuff that he man. He was doing this stuff They said, yeah, yeah, yeah, this is all the stuff he was doing. I said, yeah, okay, then check this out This is what y'all need to do. I'm gonna work with you on this You go and arrest me man, you do it and Tommy her and man prosecute say now that's what I'm talking about That's what we do.  He jumped up and went to cussing You know I'm talking about this was uh, I forget his name mark Can't thank you but he took the case he was from flint But he jumped up on kesson and he jumped running towards me now This one I really would have been in trouble, you know my nature, you know, like Defend yourself, you know, yeah, and then you know, I chose to fight. I don't but I'm not I'm not violent But I can be you know I'm saying so All right, well, he was 20. This will let people know he wasn't just any ordinary pro boxer He was 22 and two, you know, I mean he was uh, uh very Uh, you know on the rise star and the things, you know had gone one way instead of the other We could be talking about Daryl chambers the same way we talk about Tommy Irons Yeah, that's yeah, I hear you and uh, what was so crazy about it?   How do you want to play the game? Look at the uh The wall street crooks who caused the a global recession Only one of them was convicted And that that caused way more. I would argue caused way more Havoc and ruined way more people's lives Then uh narcotics. I'm not saying that narcotics. It's a good idea to use that use narcotics or whatever I'm not I'm not trying to be naive about that. But yeah, there seems to be certain types of crimes Seemed to bother uncle sam more than others and let's put it in context to the time that this was all going on so You know, as I said at the beginning of the recording, this was at the end of the 1980s and Maserati Rick and Demetrius Holloway Were on the front covers of the newspapers for like five straight years um If you watch some of the Tommy herns fights on youtube that were either on cbs or HBO or showtime or on pay-per-view You can peep Maserati Rick in the entourage at a number of those fights walking with Uh Walking with Tommy to the ring. Yeah, so just for the audience the unfamiliar with detroit gangland Give some context on who Maserati Rick and so Daryl came from the east side of detroit And uh, i'm gonna throw it back to Daryl one more soon one more time one of many times We're gonna throw it back to him uh to talk about coming up on the east side and and going to Cronk and and building Cronk into what it became But in addition to the east side of detroit being this, you know, fertile breeding ground for great athletes and boxers um Like Tommy herns and Daryl chambers It's also has proven over the years to be a breeding ground for big-time criminals and and dope bosses um Maserati Rick And uh Maserati Rick Carter and Demetrius Holloway were the um, kind of like the the the Cadillac or the uh lexus Or the tesla if you will of the of the dope game in detroit at that time. Um They they they cut very high-profile figures. They were very flashy and they were spending a lot of time at Cronk and Maserati Rick is killed and they both died very flamboyant deaths in the same way that they lived Maserati Rick is murdered in his hospital bed in the fall of 1988 Demetrius Holloway is a very showy funeral. Yeah, it has a funeral where he's buried in a 30 000 dollar Mercedes with Ben's convertible um, that's made into a casket right um and Demetrius Holloway gets killed in broad daylight at a men's clothing or right in downtown detroit in 1990 This is all the same time that the government starting to put their case together against daryl or starts building it in the early 90s daryl by this point has uh retired from boxing and is just kind of in the game and again daryl wasn't For my research daryl wasn't really the target here the target was the two biggest names at Cronk which were mani and tommy and We haven't even started to go into the way the case was built against daryl was incredibly dirty They used the da used a someone that they they will refer to as a quote-unquote professional informant His name was andrew chambers. No relation to daryl. No relation To the chambers brothers who are also up. They were east side too an east side big name dope click that had nothing to do with any of this um and Andrew chambers andrew chambers was Brought to detroit by the da. He was a guy from st. Louis. He was brought to detroit and sent at the cronk gym and the da said go into cronk and make a case for us Yeah, and in order Uh for us to get tommy and mani. We're going to go through the other guys that are moving weight through the uh through the gym And they ended up with three different cronk boxers. It wasn't just daryl It was daryl a guy named william long street It went by the nicknamed standing the steamer who who daryl mentioned before Eventually turned witness against him and then the most high profile of the group was donald the lone star cobra curry Who was a two-time? Middleweight uh welterweight champion, I believe um Was was was a name in the boxing world that stretched around the globe the way that tommy urns is named And and if you're unfamiliar with the world of boxing these names like stewart tommy urns These were world wide worldwide known figures in this this wasn't just the detroit there I mean they were they were started in detroit. They were located here That's why that's why he's a he's a true double og here Right because daryl started with mani and tommy before anybody knew what cronk gym was But by the 1990s the the cronk gym is the is the preeminent name in the world of professional boxing mani stewart is Training his his training has gone beyond just the original cronk guys like tommy urns He's training all the world champions of the 90s. Yes, these are these are big Lennox louis oliver mccall He he trained oscar delahoya Uh, I mean these big big nami. I remember another guy. I'm gonna digress a little bit But one of my favorite box was back in the day was the prince prince naz Uh, I don't remember who was uh, uh, uh, I was a lightweight from britain He was a muslim and he came and traded with mani. He was a big draw for a couple years in the early 2000s What about macho camacho? Yeah, uh, so Julio sees a shot. It was a lot of This is a great heat that was coming down on cronk that was the Kind of the um, the reverberations or the ripple effects or the hangover from maserati and demetrius and Daryl Happened it to just be in the eye of the storm and took the brunt of it Why were the feds so hot for stewarton hitman just because they were public big public high profile Black black people with a lot of money and power Yeah, does not Does not make the government very happy. Yeah I mean look with isiah thomas and uh, we had uh, uh, I don't want to say a similar situation Because the government wasn't going after isiah. They were going after the italians and isiah happened to Find his way into their crosshairs With uh, some allegations of point shaving and money laundering Um, so, I mean, I think it was it was this was the exact same time Yeah happened in 1990 Uh Holloway got killed in 90. Carter got killed in 88. Daryl's case came in 93 94 94 So there's this kind of notion that If you're a celebrity You can get away with anything but but that doesn't apply to people of color who are celebrities You're still you still have a target. Yeah on your back being a person of color Is that supersedes any kind of celebrity status or wealth you have let people know about tommy hernes In addition to these allegations of possibly uh Being a little too fast and loose in his, uh Uh relationship with Demetrius and mazarati Tommy was also I don't want to say I don't want to say caught because that makes it sound like he was doing something illegal but Tommy was found out to be hosting mafia run dice games at his mansion And during one of those dice games his brother ended up killing his His brother ended up killing His girlfriend the brother's girlfriend and In the litigation and depositions from that case it came out that Freddie Salem Freddie the st. Salem allen health the jackalones Were those their dice that was there were running those dice game the same games they were running at isaas house They're running at tommy's house. So how many hernes brother was tommy hernes brother remember killed His girlfriend at one of those parties accidentally or i'm not it's a domestic dispute. Holy shit Yeah, I don't remember as it was that must have been huge news at the time We would have been kids but yeah, but my point is hernes was already in the On the radar right behind the dea. Yeah And let's also just say for the record. None of this has ever been proven. I mean, these are all allegations Tommy and mani were never arrested for anything or put on trial for anything. There was just the belief of of a certain Factions of the federal government that that was happening and and they were going after that for a while But let's let's go back for a second. Let's start from the beginning there. I'll just tell us about being Having nothing to do with drugs Just being a young up and coming athlete on the east side gravitating to the croc and then talk about when you go I mean, this was when the seeds Were planted.   Yeah, and at the time of tomorrow I remember the time that uh My father had worked at christland and he worked nice and stuff and uh, and we was going to the nationals nationals the national a u the national a u and then um I think uh, let me see me And benar mays we've we've went down and we've uh, it was the junior national a u junior olympics though And uh, I think we're 15 we're 15 years or not. I remember manual getting a whole bunch of um Chickens donated through the chronicle through. Are you remember the chronicle mission chronicle surround? Okay.  We got that money and then we went down to uh Dude, what was that at a rapid city, south dakota and my mother my father drove down there And he had me benar my father and immanuel in a linen smith. There's another Uh training at the time when I first started I started with linen smith I stated that that jumped like a year and then he brought me over to crime So we all goes down to uh Go down to rapid city, south dakota.  That was like that was like the nationals Right that qualify you for the olympics So I think he won the diamond gloves in 61 or 60 and he really was qualified But him he got with his wife and he got married They were and he quit boxing and stuff But when he was training us He just we number was just like all the dudes out the gym and he'd get us and it wasn't like Didn't nobody didn't nobody really had no money was just families, you know And like and we all go to the fights and we all do is we would go to Like Ohio State Fair. We all stay in the ABC motel. You know from Kids and what he said, well, we're gonna stay at the hotel hotel. Yeah, you know, that was like big but and that was like When you got older them was you know, like I won't say Yeah, you got to say it one room, you know two beds and one tv That's it. Then you know all this there might be down the street. There might be some women You know, right down there. So it was like wow, but we're standing there. That's the things we was doing And this is like getting insight into You know just for for people that are maybe a little younger and they don't understand that pro boxing was At a time in this country other than baseball It was baseball and boxing football and basketball were not major sports Really until the 80s and 90s. Yeah it was boxing and baseball and and Manny Stewart Is is a legend's legend 41 head or not not heavy 41 world champions Nobody has ever trained more world champions. Throw out some of the names that people would recognize. Well, uh, as I said Later in his career, there was a vander holyfield. Lennox Lewis Oscar de la Jolla Tommy herns, Milton McCrory Paul to your head because he was a champion too jimmy paul Listen jackie beard Jimmy paul jackie beard Just named a few to one since you like to Did you treat the guy from Pontiac? Who's the guy from bone crusher? I know bark bark caveman lee. Yeah caveman lee frank take Hold on. I'm gonna pull something up. Remember the guy from Pontiac. Wasn't there wasn't bone crusher from Pontiac Wasn't that no, I know he I think james tony from harbor. Oh, okay Tim in the I forget jackie mccullum. See I think she was imagining jackie mccullum. Yeah jackie calum He's jackie calum. So, uh, he fought or he taught he trained uh, winterford benitez mark breland Oba car julio cesar chavez mckel cotto Oscar de la joya tyson fury who's a boxer that's still around right now the klitschko brothers Tommy herns prince nasim hamed avander holeyfield hillmark Hilmer kenti caveman lee lenox louis alvram mccall mike mccallum jerald mcclellan michael moore. Oh, that's a detroit camp. He wasn't a detroit guy, but he trained here, right? He wasn't a world champion Yeah, he won the world championship here. He uh, he'd be a foreman, right? He'd be a foreman No, no, he lost a form lost a form, but he beat holeyfield. He beat holeyfield lost a form He lost a form, yeah James tony dwayne thomas ricky wilmack. I mean a lot about these names a lot of guys in a lot of different weight class He's like the bill bellichick. Yeah, he really is of boxing and uh, he's been gone now for about 10 years And uh, Tommy's still around but you know, I can't overstate what a Epic figure in the world of professional boxing manny stewart was and and daryl's with him like I said, you know When the roots were being planted for this empire that that uh, manny eventually Grew and built. Yeah, these guys were just like Literally 10 to 15 15 year olds. Yeah driving around in a van 12 start 11 years old, uh, and then almost all of these guys and I want daryl to touch on this Became rich and famous Uh within 10 years Um And and you're this is before daryl starts dabbling um, and and daryl's just A boxer on the rise with these guys and you guys Will you all turn pro or in the late 70s early 80s and be up mostly up everybody turn pro around that time It but in the beginning, you know saying and uh, that's we have we all started from that and uh, just like just like with uh, Tommy herns and ray linden that was I think it's in the world with world book again It's the record that was the most fight for a walk away fight ever in history. It was 1981 the first the first herns That was uh, uh Sugar Ray fight was 81 Um, I I'm gonna digress a little bit again. Mm-hmm, you know, Tommy herns Obviously the motor city cobra the hitman One of the greatest boxers ever to come out of the City of Detroit one of the greatest boxers ever a seven time world champion or six or six or seven time world seven time world champion hitman but His two biggest fights He was ahead in both of those fights And and and kind of faded I know he was ahead on the card uh with sugar ray in 81 until the latter rounds when when, um Leonard went ahead and then with marvelous marvin Uh, the first two rounds he was winning and then he just totally ran out of gas And the third round he fought Leonard more than once didn't he he thought he fought Leonard Three times once was a draw the last time was a draw Yeah, that's the fight that was when they were both way past their prime One of the fights he clearly won the fight and he either that was the draw. That was the draw. Yeah, he cleared to me My point is if herns Wins just one of those fights. Yeah the 81 Leonard fight or the 85 haggler fight As much of a legend as he is as much of a goat as he is He'd be even more of a goat and my point is he was so close It wasn't like the uh, you know the first thing that comes to mind, you know, the the michael spinks Mike Tyson fight where it's over within 20 seconds. Yeah, I remember that these were two fights that tommy herns I don't want to say easily but could have and should have maybe won those two fights. Um, and uh It it just it shows you what I've always called, you know, the thin line theory and same thing with isiah thomas I know this is another digression if isiah thomas wins that Uh, that the championship when he broke his ankle in 88 and they won three straight instead of two straight I think isiah thomas has looked at on the same level as as jordan and bird and magic He's gonna be that first finals against the first finals against the lakers where they lost And they should have won that anyway Even with so it's just this kind of thin line theory that I see there's a little bit of an algae being detroiters tommy herns and isiah and they should have beat the seltics So tell us I talked to you a little bit about this In private then I I want you to call it up a little bit if you can so You met Muhammad Ali in the mid 70s used to come into detroit and show up at the conch and and schmooze with everyone but then You fought on His trevor berbitt card. No, what I trained with tommy on his trevor berbitt card tommy fought on tommy fought on the berbitt card It was the three world championship fight of this was deal. So this was in the Bahamas in 1981 And it was Muhammad Ali's trevor final fight. Yep. And uh, tommy Fought michael singleton. It was another fight world championship fight. I don't forget which one So you were in the Bahamas what you guys were training for a couple months before the fight We trained like I think we trained uh What was it six six all together drama and Bahama the drama in the Bahamas right four weeks or five weeks or something I was down there training and stuff and You're spending that time with With with caches clay Muhammad Ali. Yeah, the goat. Yeah You want just talk a little bit about being around him and one of the greatest persons in the world He was like that when I first met him in like in 75 everybody the gym You know, he's the old cat. So everybody the gym, but he mess with everybody in the gym lads and talk Come on. Let me see you beat the bag or let me show you how you know He's do all kinds of stuff all day He would come over there and we didn't want to leave we just want to stay the gym and be with Muhammad Ali That's like something great But every fighter he would come over and get over they make them hit the bag or he hit the bag Show you how fast he all shoved. He just do a lot of stuff. He was like, wow, this is a great guy, you know Like that that was like and see a 75 you have 75 did he did he fight some at cobo or Joe Lewis In the it would have been cobo In the in the 70s He came down in a train. He had to have fought in the 70s at some point He might have thought uh, maybe early he would be too big or the olympic olympics Not cobo. They were they were having a stage in big fights. They were. Yeah, I don't remember if he fought here I know he came he trained two three two three different times. He came to the then he end up we and I'm going to he had a training camp in Pennsylvania, you know, it's one place in michigan.  He was living in in like around uh, battle creek. Yes. How about Lee? Ben harbour, yeah I think it was barian springs We went up there train And uh train what he took of the magical that we trained for uh, but like it was crazy about um When I went to uh, when we said the Bahamas train I just the story that it's about Muhammad and he had in this here He had nothing to do with no drugs deals and nothing like that. He won like that. He's just a guy It's a real good guy, you know, so I go we go down here and I remember I'm I'm uh Now I'm moving around in I'm hustling and I'm boxing. That's like the split coming with me. And so um, I'm down there and I'm I'm training with Tommy's inspiring partner and um I go down there and he's so Uh, you might as well he give me a pass thing But we don't run my neck so if I can move all the way around going to which go on the back and all the stuff So I'm down every day. We train training training. So now one day, uh That day before the fight that I leave is gonna fight. I'm down there and um I see this lady. I mean it's late now. She's looking kind of good to me. I'm young, you know, I'm saying I'm speaking I smile and she laughing and she say, yeah, you know Muhammad. I think now this is my pitch. You know Yeah, you know this one's I see. Yeah, I know Muhammad. She's yeah for real. I'm telling I say yeah No, she said you think you can uh get a picture with Muhammad Lee Give me a give me the back to to get this is before social media Muhammad Ali was the most recognizable athlete on the plane. Oh, yeah, you hear me Yeah, for sure. You know, you can imagine how valuable that that connection is Uh for someone like Darryl, especially when I'm good as she was looking. So I'm like, wow, okay This is my move. So I go out go in the back. I say Ali and he just kind of person He was when I say Ali and we was like at the training camp. I used to like go early and watch him All all day then he'd go first and he had trained everything. We just said I should go and just watch him Just to sit because I'm sitting with Muhammad Lee everybody else too And then then we'll come start training when Tommy coming because they have different sections for each three world title So, uh by this time so I go in the back. I say Ali. I said man, it's a lady out there She want to take a picture with you say what I said. Yeah, he said is she pretty? I said, yeah He said Darryl, you don't know what pretty is. So you don't decide you don't know what pretty is. I said, yeah, man He said you too young to know what pretty is girl. I'm telling I said now. I'm telling Ali. She's real pretty man I'm telling he's okay. So he gets the guy in one of his body guys.  He's okay. Well, all right So he shoots out there with me and everything. I say, uh, that's her right there and the dude said, oh, that's her Yeah, he said come on with me. So we come to the back.  You're right. She's she is pretty and he grabbing he hug her, you know Like, how you doing lady? What's your name?  So he tell the guys hold this guy So he went to taking pictures with her like that and joking that Darryl showing her what pretty is then one time this was like guys We always laugh. He said go can I kiss me on the cheek?  She said, okay, then as soon as he did like that She was good. He can turn this box. She said, whoa You know that did you and she laughs everything. So turn around she went on out left And she was a cheek kick went out left and then um So I said, yeah, she pretty everything. So we thought yeah, she is man and stuff like that So the next day I see her I see her at the fight. So I don't know now I'm still Get mama leave. I'm the one you do guys just picture with her. I say I'll say check this house. Look, uh, Yeah, you want this uh pass here? I see you get this pass.  She said Yeah, for real. I said, yeah, so I give her the pass and stuff And so when I give her the pass that evening the fight Now if it to be the fight I come out there. She's sitting up front I'm talking about didn't like back then I leave one bro on the first real expensive fight They was like $500 or $1,000 ring size seat. That was like I leave the one first bro in there. I said So I see her so I go over that real class. Okay. I said she does uh, uh, I said this what you do I said now if uh, if uh If somebody tell you to move If someone you know Peter bring in I said if they tell you to move, you know Just move over you guys just move on one seat or move back one seat and go down because she got right up there from like Wow, I don't want this to happen. So I tell her she said No, no, no, because she's behind me. No doubt. This is my seat. This is my I said, no, no Just move over. I said they come in somebody bring somebody here. Just sit off. He said no, Daryl And I'm telling you this is my seat now. I'm getting kind of mad because I'm thinking I said, oh I told you man, I lost the pass so I can get another way So I don't want her to find out. So I say I said, no, I said, look man, you can't sit Then she said no, Daryl. I got this is my seat.   Yes, Daryl. This is my seat. I said, okay. All right So you knew she had money right? I know she had to be rich He's sitting down like this now the other story come and play and then like this is like this was an 81 Then back in 81, you know, I'm coming up under the old schools, you know the dudes like on the east side Like they back then they had something called the east side twelves, you know, but it was players They was dealers, but they was real players talking about the east side 12 than our One of our last episodes when we're talking about marzat.  So, um You know, just like a cold, you know respect the game the game won't respect you so anyway The lady she say she said, yeah, you know one time I used to go to She said I said from uh, michigan. She said I said from Detroit. She said one time I used to go to michigan She said and uh, the people got me. I said, well, she said, yeah, the police had got me and I paid big bond and I leave I never come back. I said, oh, yeah But she said she seems to ask about drugs, you know So at that point, you know, young you know, I come up. You didn't just go up to people like they do Hey, man, you sell dope? Yeah And I'm like, yeah, she said, yeah, she said, yeah, I used to move a lot of cocaine. I said, what? I said, yeah So I'm still listening to him and I'm fishing too.  She said, okay We get in touch with each other. So we talk a few days when we talk next day We talking everything and uh, then she gets my my address and everything and I said, okay She gave me my address. I give him my address. I give him my address and stuff. So we uh, I leave So I go home. So now I'm I'm going back to training. This is what I do. I'm by go to the gym and I'm hustling too, though So I'll do this and then uh One day I walk in the house and my kid's mother she looked at me all in the mouth. What's wrong with you? Oh, I guess you found you another girlfriend. She sent you some flowers and a big picture Flower So then when I look I look at the I look at the The thing she sent a picture a big picture was saying thank you on there was a picture of her and ali She sent a picture and I said thank you on this. She's been sending flowers. She said I told about You know, I just my daughter was just born. I told about my daughter. She said this for your this is for your house And you know, which cost the cool then she sent the thing This was kilts from tiffin company Now tiffin company back then it was like, you know, we come about east side. You really don't know like You know tiffin company.  I think it was So I look at I said, man, look at that look pretty but now what me and my girl is like funny and my girl The boxy that came in was like the satin and with the things and that's what we look we took the we took the What knots we're back then we called it what not, you know the people who sit on the console and then on the east side and then you know on the shelf the shelf's one of this bed but you just put that up there, you know, and so We got the box so every time somebody come over I said, I said man I said this girl this lady man sent me some stuff from over the Bahamas. Check this out We're gonna get the box. Look what they come in. We'll show them like that They look up there. Then we say but look at the box They like the box Silk and satin with more than that So I'm like, wow everybody. Yeah. Yeah, I said but I remember tiffin company And I remember that on the outside man. Wow, you know, whatever so for this So then one day now, this was Muhammad. No had to come out. It was fighting In in Alaska It has come off fighting like he was the first he was the first lightweight. They ever fight for a million dollar Fight that was back then. So this is maybe about 83 or something like this. So, um Now I'm mess with he god bless. So he just passed Had to watch his trainer the one he was training here the one was training here He's from Detroit. He's from Detroit, but I forgot exactly where, you know, not like the Detroit like the outskirts of it or something but uh, he uh He we I was hustling with him back then, you know, just small like that. And so Then I tell him about so he going to Florida, which he said, well, you know, I'm gonna be gone for a while You got about five weeks.  They ain't gonna be ready now I said, man, check this out. I meet this lady over in the Bahamas.  He said, what? So I tell him the number's so cheap by being in the Bahama He said, no, you for real? I said, yeah. And so he really didn't believe me I said, man, look at this stuff that she sent me. I grounds to get the box I get the box. Then he didn't want to tell me what I had. I run to get the box. He said He said, yeah, Tiffany come that's one of the uh, At that point, Tiffany company was one of the best with sterling silver Yeah, whatever. He told you tell him about that and I said, yes, he said, well, what is to come in? I said, right up there, but I'm still trying. He said, oh man, he goes and look at that And then he looked at the change that he took up to each one was gold And he said, man, look here. This is what about 3600 4000. I said, what?  I was like, what? I said, I get it. We take it up in my girl laugh about. So then he said, yeah, well, you know, um You what you got? I said, yeah, she gave me her phone. I'm a caller, but I'm still on a low level of dealing But I know I'm like the guy to spot and I tell him but I say, uh, this is like I say, this is uh I say this the number he say this a number. I say, yeah, he said caller first thing about my man Man, I ain't calling over to the behind. You know what I'm saying? I don't want this to fall. Yeah, things are different back Right. You ain't got no feel you got a Yeah, you're right. He said don't worry about it. I'm gonna pay your home for pay your whole phone bill Caller. So I call. I say, hey, check it out. So I say who she in there. I call. I say, look, uh, my, my friend won't come down There is everything cool.  It's just come on. Give me this. She said, what? Who all come? I said, me and two of my friends.  She said, I'm gonna give you a reservation This will you stay and everything. So when I gave her the reservation, I mean, she gave me the reservation Call me back. She said, okay, you got a room. You got a room for three And, uh, then this was great. Biscayne Avenue At the Columbia hotel. This is 980 About 82 round 82 for Biscayne Avenue. So she say, uh, when we go over there, we get the room and everything So not my partner. He didn't roll JC. He didn't follow us. Me and nine men to Wayne Thomas That's we part of the hustling tip. So me and him, it's now we drive on He drive, he got two girls with him and uh, we gonna we are they found us. So first I said, man Why you didn't want to ride with us? He said, uh, you know, one one look at them Mexicans in the black on that list would tell me say going on there and uh, so, uh We don't gonna do that. It's gonna look bad. So when we start, we get on the Biscayne Avenue Big old hotel. They got prostitutes all around the corner. No, everything has Miami Miami. Yeah. So and then that's the port though, right? But he goes down, he stayed the fountain blue and now the fountain blue is really still there. Back then it was the fanciest hotel on Collins Avenue and the dolphins in it with the water shoot Yeah. Yeah. So that was from Meyer Lansky used to roll. Yeah, that's what a best hotel they had. I think they still got there. I was there a couple of years ago. Okay. Yes. That and the Eden Rock were the two big ones. Okay. Yeah. So we go down. They had fights there. Oh, maybe not in the 80s, but in the back in the day, they did. So he so he goes down there. He stayed there. And we stay. So me and them. So now she tell us how to get on how to come back. She's okay. Look here. You gonna stay in there. We stayed at what's that hotel? Jerry Lewis at a hotel, you know, in the Bahamas back then. Yeah. So we stayed there. She's giving you like the 411 or like a blueprint on how to get stuff from the Bahamas over to Miami. So she when she and it's like to do Utah is called a junk. It's called a travel drunk. Yeah.   They ain't bother with the money. They just want you to get over there in gamma because you're going to Jerry Lewis hotel. So they try to stop nobody with no money. It's just like go get on the junk and get over there. So we get on the junk and get over there. Everything boom. And I call. She called me up when I get to work.  So she to boom. She telling the cab. We get the cab. We go to her spot. So we come to a spot and house. And she's we get to talk. And so she induced me to her husband. I forgot his name, but he used to play like good.  Like that because he ain't a player for me. Why is that? So I got the way with me. So she say, so she look at me and she's looking at me. She say, uh, I think the name is talking. Talking. Why don't you take the way and go get some conch? Go get some conch. So I'm going to make some conchs out of Fadura. And so he's okay. Then him and the way. So when him and the way, girl, let me let you tell you something. My business is my business and your business, your business is your business and my business. She said, that's my husband, but he's gone. And your friend, he's gone. So what we do, we do together. And it's all that. So okay, then boom. So I tell her the money I got. She tell me everything. I don't forget four, five things, you know what I'm saying? And that was like big then, you know, so let me ask you this. She was like a clean pen. Let me ask you this. Higher. I'll tell you, it was crazy.  Well, she had like, they had a landing script. Oh yeah. And I think her husband owned a landing script, you know, back then. Let me, let me ask you this. This is kind of illuminating my brain cells here listening to some of the stories that Daryl's telling about. He's a professional athlete. I mean, fighting on cards that you would watch on your television set. But he's obviously not making enough money to be living the lifestyle of a major athlete. So he's hustling along the side. This is before Daryl graduates to full, full-fledged kingpin status.  How many of those guys you think were hustling on the side? Actually, back then in the day, a lot of, you know, for real, I mean, when I say a lot of them, it's like more than less. Yeah. Like that, you know, and if it, whatever, you know, if you just, even if you just follow the fighters, like come up in that time, a lot of them, yeah, a lot of them got, a lot of them got, I mean, yeah, there were a lot of legal issues.  There's another aspect of this I want to throw out to both you and Jimmy. What Jimmy, I always look in at kind of, you know, the guy behind the guy behind the guy, like kind of scratch beneath the surface and find, you know, contacts and layers and nuance to things that maybe aren't, you know, obvious to the naked eye. But as Manny is building the Cronk Empire, he's really a ground breaker, at least in Detroit, when it comes to breaking away from the traditional grip that organized crime had on professional boxing here. The Italians controlled professional boxing in Detroit from the 20s, I would say all the way up through the 70s. And then just like you saw in the drug world, where a lot of those groups in the 80s, starting with YBI, started to find independence from having to be completely reliant on the Italians. You also see this in Manny Stewart and the fact that, you know, Daryl, I'm interested, I want you to tell the story and then expand. You know, Daryl talks about early in his, you know, early in his career having to go do some showcases in front of some of the OG Italians that were working the boxing world here, Sammy Fennazo, Jimmy Guazzarano, and guys like that. But other than those interactions, you know, younger in your earlier career, by the time the 80s are up and running and Tommy Hearns and all these Cronk guys are making a lot of money, the Italians weren't anywhere really to be found.  No, he was on certain things, but he like, it was just like small, I'm not gonna say small fight, today might put a show and they're like, they'll get together and then this week to say, which I don't know for sure, but they say, all right, well, this week we're gonna, you know, this weekend we put a show down, we gotta show it, you know, and we say the mob show, we said the mob show, you know, they're gonna be sitting there, they're gonna be smoking cigars, they're gonna have a group, and they're gonna be a bunch of them, and mostly all the guys in there was Italian. And it's a flesh market, they're looking for people to stake, they're looking for people to invest in.   And those were like the Rooster Tail, or at Symbads, or at the Motor City Boxing Club, which was on Woodward, the semi-finazo spot.   It's also interesting to see how, you know, from when you started, to when you ended up leaving the boxing game all together and just doing the street stuff, where Cronk had gone, or where Cronk had evolved to, what do you attribute, like, the ability for that brand to explode the way it exploded? And it was, again, I think a lot of people look at Cronk, at least Detroit, and they think Cronk Tommy Hearns, and then they kind of forget about all these other major, major pro boxers that were maybe not from Detroit like Tommy Hearns, but were from all around the world that were coming to Detroit to train with Manny. What was the magic elixir? What did he have that everyone wanted? It really was like the gym itself, and then it was like, it was competition. Do you like to say Muhammad Ali came down to Detroit? Muhammad Ali came to Detroit and he trained with some fight with somebody. They had one of the Wayne Bonds, he was one of 72 national, I think that was Emanuel first, one of the Emanuel first national fighters, the Wayne Bond, I think he won the National Golden Glove. He had a pretzel Davis, was a good fighter too, heavyweight, but like I said, everybody came down to the gym. Man, that gym was like, if you made it out about, if you made it out. Tell us about the actual gym, and for people that don't know, Daryl's an east sider, but the gym was on the west side. Yeah, gym was on the west side, and we come, but it's like a lot of, but most of the majority of people's, a lot of most of it was from the east side, you know, the box there. And it was like that devil gym, you went down there, you went and got some work. Everybody, like at that time, like I said, if it was 12, like it's 106 pound to 1200, a 200 heavyweight, and you might get this right here, you might get, I mean it's 12, say 12 brackets, and coming out of, coming out of Detroit for like for the, where we go to like the state, then we all fight, everybody's barking from which car. I mean state, you got 11, 11, 10 coming out of the state.  So now you got eight going to the national. If you got eight going to the national, you got five of them winning, and three of us semifinals, or losing in the fight. I mean, did you recognize how special he was? Like, hey, this guy's given us something that we can't really find anyone else. Can't go to New York and find you. You can't go to Chicago and find it. I feel a doubt here, you know, like good fight, but at that time, if you think about it from like, from, I know it from, from my boxing, from the 70s, say 74, 70, from 74 to 85. So all the way going to the national, I'm telling you, you would, national AU, national Golden Gloves, any, Junior Olympics, Silver Gloves, anything, you have nine, eight to nine chronic fighters getting there to the national, every time. And this was like, this was like 10, 10, 12 years. And even I thought of what the jail is still, which is still like that. And then he was, he was, he was training world champions into the 2000s. Right. Training the biggest fighters for the biggest fights. And then going to the national. He, if this is not like I say, I keep talking about the nationals and Junior Olympics, almost all the things that like, I could talk to fighters right now. I talked to other day, Michael Nunn and Michael Nunn. And everybody talk about it. Man, they might use his voice to where you always talk. Check this out there. This what you got to get. Did I'm telling you, I'm going to be right here. And all you got to do is stay on top of the man. He ready to quit. That's how you talk to everybody. We talked to him. He, they all say, man, we be down there. And all we look around. We see all that red and gold. We said, I hope they ain't in my way. Clare, it's because all of us can fight. You know, at that time it was just real good fight. It's a super competitive thing. And then there was like, Cronkim's like, again, I know I keep on reemphasizing this point. But like, it was like Lambo Field or Yankee Stadium. I mean, and it was, I never, I was never there. But I've seen other celebrities that would, not just from like other sports celebrities or music, like did it attract other like, M&M was going down there and training with Manny. Yeah. For a period of time when he was going to, he was going to try to do a movie. Yeah. At the end. What about like in your time, were there any other? In the beginning, it was like, it was like world champions, heavyweight world champions and stuff they would come through, sit and talk to Emmanuel and kick it. You know what I'm saying? Like that. But not like a lot of singers. Not like like baseball players or anything like the big name. Were they interested in boxing? No, not really.  This, see us and talk with them. It's like, you know, we'll go talk to them. They were the bigger celebrities than like the Tigers. Yeah. And at a certain point, they were bigger celebrities than the Tigers and the Lions and the Red Wings. Well, especially in the 70s and the 84 Tigers, I guess. But I was just wondering, because if you think of something like the big fights in the 80s and the 90s, there's a little lot of celebrities in the audience. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Darrell, touch a little bit on your personal recollections of Maserati Rick Carter and Demetrius. Did you know Maserati from like, when you were in high school? Yeah, well, Maserati, he was, you know, he's from East Saturday. And he, when I was, when I was, he, I viewed, I saw some of them fights. He was in my corner. So you worked your corner on a couple fights. Well, he, man, he worked it. He was just a water guy. I put the boom, boom. And man, he like, he just like, he worked at some of the fights, you know what I'm saying? He wasn't no trainer, nothing like that. He's just about. There's that famous photo that I think I showed you that when Maserati was, I'm guessing a teenager or maybe in his early twenties, but there's a free press photo of Tommy Hearns. I think it was before he won the belt. I think it was 79 or 80. And it's Tommy Hearns, Mayor Coleman Young, Manny Stewart, and in the background, Maserati Rick Carter. Yeah, you, if you look at a lot of the fights, if you see him, he would always be there. Sometimes having mink coat on and all that. Yeah. Well, he fancied himself. Yeah. Super fly. Oh, an amateur boxer.  Yeah. He loved boxing. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. That's what he just come through. He really won no boxing, you know what I'm saying? But he, but I've seen photos of him. And I'm guessing these photos were taken either at the Cronk or at Cronk affiliated events. I've seen photos of Maserati Rick with Sugar Ray Leonard and Don King. Yeah, he's come to all the fights and everything.  Like, all the time. Did he, was there a point though where you saw like Maserati Rick? Because everything I've heard about Maserati Rick Carter was that he was someone that people knew because he had a colorful personality, but wasn't really that big of a deal until he was a really big deal. Like, did you see a point when like you're like, oh, that's just Rick. And then all of a sudden it's like, oh, Rick's on the news now and Rick's rolling, you know, pretty deep and making a lot of money. Right. Yeah. When he came up, like, like, you know, say when he came on with us, you know, I would know he would be, you know, I just say that's Rick. That's Rick. Come to the fights. You know, that's Rick. You know what I'm saying? Like that. And then later, you know, I've seen him change. You know what I'm saying? As far as me know the game, you know, about how it hustled was. So I've seen it a lot. I don't know if a lot of people did. But Dimitrius was more behind the scenes and more smoother. Yeah. And Maserati, what do you mean by that? When I mean like more behind the game and more smooth is just like he was bigger than what people thought he was. The people didn't think he was that big. Yeah. He really was the guy. You know what I'm saying? I'm not talking about Rick. Rick to one pool. Rick to one style messing with him. You know what I'm saying? Spell messing Dimitrius. He run across somebody. Say, I don't know what I'm saying. Rick, the Maserati Rick had the bigger glamer persona. Yeah. But Dimitrius was the bigger shotcaller.  It wasn't like he could really stand on his own feet. So remind me like what they were, they were working together at one point and then had a falling out. No, they never had a falling out. Not public.  They were best friends and business partners. So who killed Maserati Rick? Best friends? No. Maserati Rick was most likely killed by Big Ed Hansard and his crew. But they blame the best friends, didn't they? Best friends were at war with Dimitrius and Maserati around the same time. Okay, right. So sometimes they get conflated. Right, right. But most likely the hitman on the Maserati Rick Carter murder was Ricky Parker, who was Ed Hansard's main enforcer. And but Ricky Parker was tried and acquitted, but there's a lot of people that believe that. So did you have a sense of like how, so you start off just like, it's a side hustle to supplement your, the income you're getting from boxing. Did you ever have a sense of like how precarious this could be? Like the higher you get in the game, like guys get whacked. Guys get killed. Did it ever, did you ever think like, geez, like at some point this is getting maybe more dangerous than I'm comfortable? Yeah, well, I never did. Because like I say, the hot side of these, as you know, things like that happen. But like how I hustle, see, I hustle, I made my position to the hustle like fall back. Like, you know, you never seen me like, mean coat on with all the jewelry and stuff like that. But you know, I just, I was hustling on, I used to call myself the ghost of my friends. And I'm just laughing, joke. Cause like, I might have been getting like it back. Low Z and if I were getting low Z and say 150, 200. But then the numbers are, if say, just say all three of the partners, right? And if I get it met at this number, you know, cause I like I say, met people out of town, different place. If it costs them, I wouldn't make number like $1,000, $1,500 off you. And like that, right? But the number when I give you make $1,000, $1,500. Actually, if we all went to you, you was the man. You know what I'm saying? Everybody thought, you know, everybody think you was the man cause I gave you the number that was so sweet. You know, everybody can get some money.  Money don't make men's, you know what I'm saying? They get, okay, they get this money. Then they think they turn, put a blue vest on cause they got money. But that ain't gonna work. And all these really flashy, violent, in-your-face personalities were, again, they were either being killed or they were going to prison.  Johnny Curry goes down in 87. White boy Rick goes down in 88. Best friends indictment comes down in I think 90 or 91. Chambers are gone in 88. Caldeans are, the Iraqi mob is gone by 90, 91. So, you know, early 90s, all of these groups have killed each other off. And, you know, I don't think there were people on the street complaining that someone like Darryl would want to come in and do things the opposite, the way they'd been being done for the previous decade plus. I mean, I think in Detroit, we've seen the ebbs and flows of violence on the street when it comes to the drug game. And there wasn't a ton of violence until the late 60s, early 70s. And then things quieted down in the early to mid 70s and then ramped right back up in the late 70s until 90. And then in the 90s, things mellowed again. And Darryl was really at the forefront of that mellowing. Unfortunately, as we said, for him, you know, the public might not have known who Darryl was, but the government knew who he was because of this desire to cut into to Cronk. And then I want to color up a little bit more the name I threw out earlier in the podcast. And this will start to wrap up a little. Andrew Chambers, not related to Darryl, is a quote unquote professional informant, meaning he is employed by the government, not as law enforcement, but as a street figure to bring them cases in the official capacity, which I guess could be okay if you were making the cases clean. But specifically Andrew Chambers was discontinued as a professional informant for the DEA in the early 2000s after it was found out that he had perjured himself in close to 20 different prosecutions. I think it was like 18 prosecutions. He had perjured himself in. All those cases got tossed out. They discontinued him. Now, the scary part is in the last decade they've reactivated him. But you know, excuse me, see, because that's my major thing about that. And then see the attorney general, Janet, Janet Reno, was attorney general at that time. She not attorney general, if you want to know about, is over all the FBI, DEA, the Department of Justice, the Department of Justice and the over all the judges and everything too. You know what I'm saying? So now they had deactivated him and they had put out there that he didn't supposed to work in the field or he didn't supposed to work, go to court. And in both things, he went to the field on my case and he went to court on my case. And at that time, he was deactivated because they hadn't found out he was alive on a bunch of cases and everything. And then the DEA used to do stuff like this for me. He'd go to jail.  He'd go to jail. He'd go to jail. He'd turn right around. He'd get the first phone called BAM because DEA, whom is later DEA called. He had this one DEA used to come call, get him.  They send this guy around the country. Yeah. I mean, to different cities and to different crews. It's, it's a, and it's entrapment. I was just gonna say entrapment. It's the definition of entrapment. And again, Daryl's not saying that he wasn't dealing drugs. Right. We're saying that the bus that brought Daryl down and almost took his entire life away was dirty. Right.   And I just want to know, then, you know, I talk about Luminati. And I was, you got a president, you got a picture of the United States president. You got a picture of the United States president. Why? You got a picture of governors. You got a picture of the senator. And I said, who is the United States justice department? What picture you seen of them? Who runs the, who runs the DOJ? Right. Who runs the DOJ? They don't see no picture of them. Nowhere. Them is the Bob. Them are gangsters. Now the government is the biggest gangster in the room. Yeah, and Rob is. And Rob is on a number of occasions. Yeah. Rob, because they're not going to, they're not going to, if the DEA or FBI, they, they put a case on you, right? And they study you and they find how much you make, what's the things you're doing, and then that's when they come in. It got to be a reason. They ain't just going to arrest you. They can know you selling drugs. If you ain't making no money, they ain't wasting time because then it ain't worth it. And who was left holding the bag? So they indict, they bring a dirty informant into the case to make a case against Darrell and other boxers. Three boxers take the case, one flips, one's acquitted, and Darrell's the one who's going to do life in prison. Man. And, and it's, again, it's just, it's a, it's kind of a mockery. Do you remember? I mean, the Andrew guy that, did you have any like sense early on that this guy's not who he said he was? Yeah, it didn't, I'm 27, 26 years, I laid there and I thought about I used to laugh at myself.  I like, I read people, you know what I'm saying?  Now my thing, I picked up with you.  No, I ain't. That's good. And then the lady over here, she says, ah, she boom, boom, boom. You know what I'm saying? It's good. You know, that's crazy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Don't take Darrell Scott right there. He more, he, he this and then he this, then you'll see his hands that much. You know what I mean? Cause that's like you read a room unconsciously. You know what I'm saying? So when I went, when I went to the Bahamas, when I got there and we went early, you know, I went early because I had this girl I'm gonna take her down here and boom. And I take her down and stuff. And we, which gone, I see, I get to the thing really. He's, oh man. What? So that's, he's there. You're, you're there a couple of days early and all of a sudden he's there. Right. And then. And you're like, well, this doesn't make sense. Right. He see me. Oh, what's going on? And then Stan said, that's my man, Darrell. He said, what? What are you doing here? What do you mean what I'm doing here? As you know, come on. I said, I came a couple of days early, man. So I can sit back and enjoy the place where we make our deal. He said, oh yeah. So he told me every reason, asked me every reason why I should. Well, I got your room, man. I got your room. I said, no, I'm cool. I got a room. I said, I've been coming here since the eighties, early eighties. He said, what? I said, yeah. I said, I got a room already. He said, oh, well, I got you a suite. I said, where else am I gonna stay?  He had to wire it up. He wanted to do that. The whole room was wired up. I told him. Of course. Yeah.  Don't mess over them. Go on, let them take the room. And then they went on. They took the room and it was was wired up. Yeah, I bet. Yeah. Later on down. I wouldn't do his case. They said stuff that they had in the room and stuff like that. Yeah. But it was. So there were some things that didn't add up about him. Yeah. He did. He said another thing. He said, well, that's he says don't. I said, we can do it here and take it. Then I can go on and finish hanging out with the people. He said, no, we want to make it where it ain't much traffic. Ain't much traffic. We couldn't make a deal. But didn't he also make you do the deal like on a patio so that they could take photos. So it wasn't you wanted to do it inside. And he's like, no, let's go. It's nice weather out. Right. And definitely said it. But he he did it out in the car. Definitely he didn't want that much traffic. And then they went into. But what happened was that's when I'm picking up. I said, no, I'm cool. Let's stand in. And down or go. I said, man, they're my partner. So whatever they say good is good. I don't need to go and see. And standing went to the thing and they opened up the thing up and they took some stuff out of it. You know what I'm saying? And then that's when they come to the point. I was in this another thing by me studying law. Like saying trapping. See the last entrapment case he was was the DeLorean. Remember? Oh, yeah. He beats. Well, you know what? Actually, the last major case from here was actually just a week or two ago with the conspiracy to kidnap the governor.  And it comes out that the federal government had 14 of those 20 guys on the payroll. Right. They could have stopped it from before it even started. And then see the words you use. Now you say the conspiracy. They changed the entrapment. It's no longer an entrapment with. You can't go into and use the entrapment case with the federal government because it's called conspiracy. But back then with DeLorean, DeLorean beat the case on the entrapment. They gave entice him with everything. Okay. They know they studied him. Like I say, Robbers, they know he that he was John DeLorean, the former whiz kid in the auto company. Yeah. They know his company was going on. Back to the future. And they are going to start his own car company. Staying to steal. Right. Nobody wants to stay in the steal's car because you got to stay in the steal's car. No, there's no body work. Now, you know, do you feel home safe? And his company was flailing and in order to save his company, he tried to broker a cocaine deal that was actually. The government. Created by the government. Because they know he was going under. All right. You built a time machine out of a DeLorean. And then the irony of the whole thing is after the whole thing falls on its face, then back to the future, the movie puts it in the movie and the car then becomes cool. Yeah. Right. And becomes a collector's site. Right. Yeah. Right. But I mean, just in other cases I'm familiar with what happens a lot of the times that these professional informants is, you know, they're like, okay, let's let's deal some drugs. And then the person's like, no, I'm cool, man. And then they keep on. Oh, come on, man. I got this good. Like they keep on pushing you and pushing you. That makes it in travel. And then, right. And then it's like, well, when it goes down, it doesn't excuse the person from agreeing to do it. But it's like, is that how ethical? There seems to be some major ethical problems with that approach to law enforcement. You know, the storyline that's behind that, which is that they don't even want Daryl. Right. Daryl was like something they wanted to throw back in the ocean. Right. Yeah. Right. Right. But they were so mad at Daryl for not giving them the bigger fish. They're like, okay, well, you're going to stick it to us now. We're going to stick it to you. Yeah. And in the process at that time, the prosecutor, they were saying a mark. I can't think is mark some, but they just called them to terminate about a flint. And they said, if he would have won that case, if he would have got that and got him manual and time, which called that he would move it up into Washington. Doing. Oh, yeah. Yeah. They they wanted to advance their career. That case ended up getting maybe 10 years after this was tractor trailer. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Right. It was the same type of they targeted trailer because he was helping his cousin, Q-dog, Cousin Lewis, who was the biggest marijuana dealer in the city in the late 90s or 2000s. But tractor trailer, I believe, had to go to jail for a short period of time because he was helping his cousin launder money through real estate. So it's not unheard of for the government to look for leverage points with targets based on those target affiliations to celebrities. Yeah. But or the celebrities affiliations to other people.  There's a lot of major crime problems in this country that get a fraction of the attention from the Department of Justice. Right. That drug, that drug trafficking. Well, look, Jimmy, look, I think we discussed this on an episode in the last handful of months. There was a year ago, there was a big, big, heralded, huge mafia bust in New York. Oh, yeah. They took down the hierarchy of the Colombo crime family whose the top three defendants in the case are 89, 85 and 78. And it's like, you guys have one foot in, one of them just died last week. Yeah, he did, literally. So, I mean, these guys really have one foot in the grave and you're judging the value of them being a target at a level that is just, to me, just way overshoots reality. Not to say that those guys should get a free pass. No, no, yeah. It's something you just brought up that are domestic issues that need to be addressed from law enforcement are getting swept under the rug.  It is political. And actually doing something. Because as you point out, they'll score points in D.C. and they'll climb the ladder, get a higher appointment, maybe a judicial appoint, something, you know what I mean? Yeah, like I said, they say, if he won that case, he was, they moved him up to Washington. So tell us about just how you were able to stay positive, convince yourself there was a light at the end of the tunnel. I mean, I remember going on your, the part of the internet where you can go and look up federal criminals. And I would, Darrell, I mean, I don't know if I ever told you this, but I mean, I would check, I mean, not weekly, but at least once a month, every couple of months, I would check Darrell in the system to see if he got an out date.  And then finally I remember clicking on it.  Like no matter what happens, he'll be getting out at this particular time. And if it made me kind of, if it made my heart swell, I can't imagine when you found out that you actually had a light at the end of the tunnel. Yeah, it was, it's like, and then, I don't know, I guess it'd come up, just how you come up in life though. I sat there and, I sat there and like at the time, you know, you'll fight it. That's what you don't never quit. You know what I'm saying? I remember the thing down at the crime gym, he might have had a thing on the door with the, you know, with the small bird or some, the geese or something trying to eat the small bird. And the small bird was choking the geese, as the geese trying to put him down. Quitter's never, quit is never quit. And when, you know, when it's never quit, and quit is never, when it's never quit and quit is never win like that. So it was always the point, I'm always thinking I'm gonna get out of jail.   But I got into the Bible just like reading it, you know, reading Bible by faith and stuff. Like then my mother, she always was talking about the Bible. And then I was telling him I had the other day, I had, when I got out, it was all kind of crazy stuff. I was learning with the phone. So I see a preacher, preachers come, ministry, people. So I pushed the thing one time, I typed something and I forgot. Yeah, I wanted to talk to a preacher, you know what I'm saying? And so it was the Mormons, you know what I'm saying? And this was, something else was fascinating. It was the Mormons. And I was like, no, what is the Mormon, man?  You know what I'm saying? Well, I stayed with my sister and everything. I'm out of jail. I said, we'll come over and talk to you and everything. So one day they come over and stuff. Then they went to give me the thing about it, about how they ride the bike around, you know, the neighborhood. I'm talking to you. But then they went to name and all the places and names. So I told myself, I'm gonna come to church. They said, okay, so I started going to church. I started going to the Mormon church with them.  And I said, well, you know, I'm self, this I told them about me and everything. I said, and then what's the funny part is about this. I said, well, I went to jail. I'd never seen no Mormons. When I was a kid, I'd never seen no Mormons. Y'all ride around. I said, y'all got the armor of God on y'all. Cause y'all trying to change people's life. I was telling them how times is. And I said, I said, I remember if you came over my house over there in 1985 or 84, something like that and brung them bikes and went to talk about going to my mom and prayer. I said, hey, y'all, come on. They just brung us 10 free bikes. That would be getting so into the junkyard. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Swim, bikes and stuff like that. But like for real, I just like I kept my faith up, you know, period. And then like I said, I worked out and stuff like, you know, you're doing the street, but I just never, and then I didn't think I never thought I was going to do life in jail because it was so much, it was so much that I'm, you know, I'm not going to read them. I never should have been in jail that long. I'm not saying I shouldn't have been in jail. And for people that don't know the federal justice system, they don't parole you in the facts. No.  You know, your entire life is at the fingertips of people that don't know you, don't know really about your case.    All right, they don't fight, right? They don't fight. I'm single state. They fight. Yeah.   So I read the thing and I feel they say on the thing, they say, uh, out date, out date, deceased. Oh, look, I got again, I read and they say, uh, uh, projective, your projective, out date, deceased. So I say, deceased project. I said, I signed in there. That's that's a devil. I'm going to sign my life over. So the dude say something slick. I'll take about 10 of us and now come on, know what you want to do. I'm tearing it up. I'm not going to sign it. Come on. Then he called them and they, they can put me in a hole. No, put me in a hole for like a week or something, but it was nowhere in the world. I was going to find them later. They took that off of a projective, out date, deceased. They just say out projectiles, they unknown unknown. Right. Yeah, but that's like, that's horrible. You know what I'm saying? You signed that. I couldn't know where in the world. I could sign on like that. So how did you find out? How did you find out? Did you find out like, was it during the pandemic or right before the pandemic? Right before the pandemic. You realized that you only had a year or two left? Yeah, but I had our day because what was the, the funny part was about it. It was, uh, I'm laying down in a month. I called my sister one time. She said, uh, this, uh, my niece's baby's daddy had sent this, had talked to his mother, was doing something with the governor. And she do cases for kids unlawful for juvenile getting life in prison.  My uncle in jail and he never had no case and not, not to give first defendant order. Uh, we, I want to try and see if you can do something. Get on there. She said, well, look here, take this dude's number. So she took the guy number. He's called in Washington. So he called Washington. Washington do call the guy, Mr. Wise, uh, the lawyer, Mr. Wise, a public defendant now. And then he sent me a thing saying, uh, that he think he can get me out of jail and which cause now back then at this time, I'm going to law library all the time. I really know, but like my case, I can, I don't know my case. And I, I'm, I'm, I read that I slide up under my bed cause all this, they, they, uh, you know, they're solicited to people with life in jail.  I'm drawing a water. We're asking for a couple, a reach and get a couple of water. You know what I'm saying to get out. So I said, I'm not going to witchcraft. So then like about three weeks later, I called my sister and I guess she said, did you talk to the man? Cause he say he can get you out of jail. I said, what are you talking about? Then I went back in, I found the paper and then I called me. I said, look, uh, uh, I just need to get your number and everything. This is your number. Because I sent it in. I don't know what's happening, but you shouldn't be in jail. You, uh, you, it's a new law. 2018, uh, first step act, federal legislation to help people just like Darrell, that were on excessive prison terms for nonviolent offenses. And it gave and, and let me tell you, there are people that are, that are as deserving as Darrell getting out on this, but there are also some people that aren't necessarily like Darrell. There are people that are, that were incarcerated on nonviolent offenses, but most likely had violence in their past. So those guys, I saw some of those guys getting out before Darrell. Yeah. So it's just another damage, but Darrell eventually walked out, uh, in 2021. Yeah. And, uh, he's living his best life right now. Thank you so much for, for joining us. You're always welcome on the OG podcast, because like I said, you are more than just an OG.  And is there anything, uh, people can find out more about your story? Do you have, uh, like a website or anything that you want to plug or? Well, I mean, You can go to gangster report, which is my website where I've done some, uh, writing on Darrell. And then I'm hoping that, uh, you know, with, with the OG podcast and, and how we're going to be growing this brand that, uh, we can, you know, help Darrell share a story even more and maybe even get into, uh, uh, some, some old school boxing content where it doesn't even have to be about his case where we can just be doing some deep dives into the history of Detroit boxing or the history of pro boxing and use Darrell's, uh, has a great Rolodex and network of all these boxers that were his era. And I'd love to give him some type of platform. So look for that possibility in the future. And, and I'm going to be helping Darrell with, um, platforming him. I think there's a good chance that, uh, he'll be appearing, um, on a couple, uh, uh, well-known platforms in the future. So, well, thanks again for coming on. And, uh, I want to remind everyone, please follow us on social media at gangster podcast, uh, Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, uh, go to YouTube and watch Darrell fight on ESPN. There's a couple of Darrell Chamber YouTube. Yeah. Yeah. And, uh, and also our YouTube channel, hopefully I know I say this every week, but it's, it's slowly, but surely, but I think we should have some video content up really soon. So thanks everyone for listening. Please spread the word. I'm Jimmy Buccellato. I'm Scott Bernstein. Thanks, Darrell. Thanks, Mark, behind the glass. Thank you. We will see you next week. We're out. All right.


Thank you very much kind introduction Paul and good afternoon all and now I'm going to talk about talking about Jambu-Biji but my talk is not so academic. General Jambu-Biji is a famous as eminent sculler in the field of Indolezy and as popular among the Shibetan Jains in India as well as overseas. In this paper first I would like to mainly his aspect as a sculler by sketching his life and second we'll discuss sources to prepare a biography of Jambu-Biji. As born in a Jain family at a town in Gujarat, India at the age of 40 I mean in 1937 he became a Jain monk under the guidance of Muni Bubanabiji who was being the father of him in secular life. Thus he had securely a token opportunity to join any formal education educational institution. His genius talent however and result of intensive study of his own religion couldn't remain hiding from the scullery world. To my knowledge his first academic writing appeared in the Shri Jain Satya Prakash volumes 13 and 14 published in 1984. Before that however his ability as a sculler seemed to have been approved because in the preface of Anaykantaja Pataka volume 2 which was published in 1947 Professor H. L. Kappadia refers to Jambu-Biji as I quote a learning disciple of Bubanabiji helped me unquote. What makes him famous in the field of Indoleezy all over the world is in my humble opinion his vast knowledge of Tibetan. As you know he commanded Sanskrit Prakrit very well but there are many excellent scullers on other than him in terms of these languages. On the other hand Jambu-Biji was the only or the most able person that could translate Tibetan into Sanskrit and vice versa. Many such texts which were not available anymore are kept in the form of Tibetan translation so knowledge of Tibetan is useful in the field of Indoleezy especially in Buddhist philosophy. Here we do not touch how Jambu-Biji learned and mastered Tibetan. In the course of his research Jambu-Biji came to realize that fragment of Praman Samutya by Dignaga who is the father of Buddhist logic remained in various texts of Jainism. So he tried to reconstruct the original Sanskrit texts of Praman Samutya. His achievement in this field can be found in Nayachakra Volume 1 or Vaisesika Sutra with Chandrananda's commentary and so on and many scullers have highly appreciated them in various way like in Professor Hidenori Kitagawa's studies in Indian classic logic for example. It's not clear but this is his Sanskrit translation from Tibetan. First part of Praman Samutya, this is a part of appendix in Vaisesika Sutra with Chandrananda's commentary. In 1989 Professor Alex Tain Kelna of Vienna University invited Jambu-Biji to the first international conference on Dharma Kirti, a great figure of Buddhist logic. Western scholars wanted to show the approval of and respect to him his abilities in Tibetan anyway even though Jambu-Biji couldn't take man-made vehicles such as airplanes to attend the conference. Jambu-Biji continues his study on the texts written in Tibetan and in 1929 he published Nihaya Praveshaka with commentary of Hari Bhadra which contained some Tibetan materials. In India as well as abroad Jambu-Biji is famous scholar of in journalism especially on Jain Agamas. Here we'll keep referring to his editing works on other than Agamas such as Stree Nirvana Kevali Bhukti Prakarni to concentrate ourselves to discuss Agama texts he edited. These texts can be grouped into two categories. The ones were edited by Jambu-Biji in his early days while the others were in later. Those two have a common character as well as a difference. Jambu-Biji edited all of them with manuscripts as many as available. By doing so he could choose the best one when he came across various readings and could prepare the critical edition. However this method of editing is not unique to him but common among scholars in the Jain such as Muni Punyabijaya Pandit Skara Sangabi or Pandit Dasgu Malvaniya. Thus Jambu-Biji followed the tradition of Jain scholarship which had been established by the Jain scholars near to him and part of his discursive utilizing various manuscripts for editing a text must have been learned from the Western Indolee. And for this purpose eminence Jai monks including Punyabijaya and Jambu-Biji himself were very eager to collect the manuscripts and compile the catalog of them. Now let us have a look at the difference between the two groups of work Jambu-Biji edited. Agama texts belong to the first group of such as Ayarang which was published early in 1977 from Shri Mahavira Jain Vidyayaya as Jain Agama since number two part one contained only the main text. Oh this is not clear but this is a part of Jambu-Biji edited and published in 1977. This contained only Sutra commentary. He must have adopted this style by following the method decided by chief editors of the series namely Muni Punyabijaya, Pandit Dasgu Malvaniya and Bojack. Though commentaries on the main text were utilized to edit it, they were neither edited nor printed. With this style Jambu-Biji edited four agamas which have been published from the same publishers. In his answer to my question of how to study Jain Agama or Jain text, Jambu-Biji always emphasized that whenever commentary was available we had to use it to understand the main text comprehensively. Understanding the Agama without commentaries is very difficult even for learning scholars. Fully realized this advantage of the edition without with only original text Jambu-Biji started to re-edit to re-edit Jain Agamas with commentaries. As the first step in 1978 he published the first four angas with Britti or Tikka which are formally published in Agama Buddha series. After that he decided to critically edit and publish all 45 agamas with commentaries. The first result is Anugadbara Sutra part one with three commentaries published as Jain Agama series number 18 part one in 1999 from the same publishers. After this he had decided four agamas with a commentary which have enriched studies of Jain philosophy. To our regret however he dreamed to edit and publish all 45 agamas with commentary has not come true because of his sudden death in 29. Fortunately Acharya Chandra-Biji has taken over this task from Jambu-Biji and so far he has edited and published two agamas with commentary. First one Viyava Sutra with Varsha and Britti by Maragiri. The second is Apapatika Sutra with Avedeva's commentary. Even now he continues to edit other agamas with commentaries and will soon have his new edition of Jiva-Jiva Agama Sutra with Britti by Maragiri. Thus some days in future all 45 agamas with commentary may be available to us. This is Acharya Chandra Sutra edited by Jambu-Biji with commentary with Sutra and Varsha and Sanskrit commentary. Now we must talk about making a biography of Jambu-Biji. So far as our knowledge goes there is still no comprehensive biography of Jambu-Biji. Thus making such a one is our task to know when and where he was and what he did. Fortunately enough we have a list of places and years of his chaturmas prepared by himself. With this we can know where spent his chaturmas since 1931, somewhat 1988 through the 2009. Besides this there are three kinds of sources as material for compiling Jambu-Biji's biography. First is his own writings or works. Second, letters to various persons and third, writings about Jambu-Biji's. Sorry this is a list of chaturmas written by Jambu-Biji. First he stayed in Madhya Pradesh. From the December 20, 1988 to we have a complete list of this. Now I shall discuss the first material. Through his academic life Jambu-Biji edited more than 20 works and wrote a preface to each of them. The prefaces themselves are very important to grasp Jambu-Biji's attitude towards editing text. They are also very useful for our present purpose. At the end of his writing in a preface to the work he edited, for example, Jambu-Biji made it a rule to note down when and where he wrote it. These are written in Gujarati Sanskrit English. For example, at the end of the preface in Gujarati to Nia Praveshaka published in 2009 he mentioned that he had written it at Paritana on the 22nd of March 2007 and at the end, at the one in Sanskrit, the date is the second of April 2007 with the same place. Thus it can be assumed that he stayed at Paritana, the sacred place for at least 10 days in the spring of 2007. We are not sure whether this kind of noting on date and place is common among the Jain monks and nuns. Anyway with this we can put out that where we can put out that he stayed at so and so place and so on the date more precisely. Like most Jain monks and nuns in his days Jambu-Biji also refused to use any electrical devices at the tool for communication, though he admitted the utility of them such as mobile phone. Therefore he had written a lot of letters to various places during his wandering and chaturmas correspondence of these letters include Jain monks belong to the same gacha and scholars abroad. Sometimes he wrote five or six letters in one day to the different person. We have no idea about the priestess number of the letters Jambu-Biji had written all through his life. I mean in 2008 when he was still alive a collection of his letters was compiled and published under the title of Himalaya Padhyatra. This collection contained 29 letters to Jain monks Padhyamanthuri during his pilgrimage in Himalaya 2001. With this we can plot his tour in that district precisely and besides that this collection works as a valuable material to know how Jain men can manage to travel in the district with very few or no Jain leave. To my knowledge this is the only collection of letter Jambu-Biji wrote. The remaining must be kept separately. For example professor Harry Franco once told me that letter to the late professor Harry Franco from Jambu-Biji was deposited in the University of Vienna. If this is the case this letter will also give the priestess information. Jambu-Biji himself wrote materials mentioned so far. On the other hand many persons in India as well as abroad differed to Jambu-Biji and describe what he was and what he did in various ways. This provides us information on Jambu-Biji's life. Dr Wiley for example sketched out his life very compactly in her dictionary. This is very useful for us to have a conscious biography of Jambu-Biji. On the other hand a late doctor Kendall Fockert in his scripture and community gives a detailed account about Jambu-Biji on a particular place and particular time in the form of research notes. He stayed with Jambu-Biji during the rainy season or chattel mass in 1985 at Sami a small village in North Gujarat. From this writing we know vividly how Jambu-Biji spent his stay in the village and how he performed as a Jain monk. However moreover snapshot in this writing show Jambu-Biji's activities during the rainy season concretely and vividly. We also have another writing about Jambu-Biji. Fundarika Ratna-Biji in his Parampu-Biji Agam Jr. Muni Sri Jambu-Biji Ji Mahalajan Ji Iban chart in what I studied by Muni Chandra. This is also a very important document to know Jambu-Biji's life because the writer was initiated into Jain monkhood in 1988 and since then had lived with Jambu-Biji for about 20 years. So he's one of those who know what Jambu-Biji was. In his writing Muni Fundarika Ratna-Biji tells us about Jambu-Biji's lineage and his experiences in his life is Jambu-Biji. So I'd like to ask all of you to share information or material about Jambu-Biji's life. Thank you very much.