Did you open the audience? I did. I'm going to look for Alicia and bring her in. Andy, we're recording. Okay. Thank you. I'm going to call the Finance Committee meeting of February 21, 2023, the order at three o'clock, and thank the committee members who are present for being here in time. So it's our guests and we're soon to chapter 20 of the Acts of 2021 is extended. This meeting can be conducted via remote means. Members of the public who wish to access the meeting may do so via Zoom or by telephone. No in-person attendance of members of the public permitted, but every effort is being made to ensure the public can adequately access the proceedings in real time by a technological means. And this is a reminder to everybody that this meeting is recorded and broadcast. So with those notes, I'm going to go through members of the committee to make sure the members of the committee can hear me and be, and we can hear them. So Kathy. Yes, I'm here. Oh, good. Bob. Present. Lynn. Present. Anna. Hello, everybody. Present. And Matt. Present. Thanks. Okay, so there is a quorum of the. Let me just share. Let me just share, Andy. She just joined you just confirmed your we can hear you, right? So I think that we can call recognize that quorum of the committee is present and that we've confirmed that they can participate fully. So just going through quickly, the agenda is actually principally two items today. With possibility of a third. We will have opportunity for public comment. But we're going to start with the presentation from the Community Preservation Act. Committee, the chair of the Preservation Act committee is present. And we had invited him for the time. So I will start with the presentation from salmon questions. And if we are going to vote today, we have an option of voting today on our recommendations of the council, or we could wait one week to do so. I do not want to have any vote of council on a motion without having had public comment. The other item that is on the agenda. And it's a very, there is a technical point that I want to make very clear that we're, what was on the agenda was the debt exclusion and recommendations whether to place that exclusion on the ballot and the wording of the question we really did vote on the exclusion on the ballot for May 2. At the last meeting what we did not vote was the language and so the language is on there. But the questions of the financing and what we're going to be recommending on that is actually on the agenda for next week. So that there is a distinction as to what's on the agenda for this week and next week. Sam. Welcome. So are you going to want to have the memo on the on the screen and if so, do you want to put it up or do you want to have one, one of us put it up. Well, I'm not sure what the thank you for inviting me, Andy, and committee members and others. I'm glad to be here. My, having not done this previously, I put together a slideshow presentation with the various projects. It seems to me that that's the preferred starting point. Then there are two other documents that may or may not be beneficial there's the report that was submitted to the town council that delineates some of the details. I also want to reference a minority report on one of the projects two members had comments that were different than the outcome of the vote. So that was to start with the slideshow, but I would defer to the requirements of the committee, whatever. I just wanted to make sure that I knew you had come prepared to put things on the screen or needed help and you've answered the question. I have them on my desktop if needed but I think you have them as well if you're able. It's a question of navigating through the charts whatever works better if you're able to put the slideshow that would be good. Whatever works best for you as far as how you think I'd say put them on the screen as long as you're okay with me saying next and next. Okay. Athena do you want me to pull them up. Andy do I can pull them up I didn't know if he already had a but I can pull up if that's helpful. Yes, please. Yeah, give me one second. Sean I also have them if you want me to do it. Sure, you can go ahead if you have a handy you can go ahead. Sam is this the right one. Yes, yes. So, I'm ready whenever give me the word, Andy. Go ahead. Okay. So thank you again for inviting me and to speak and for all your hard work. I know it's quite a, quite a task. I'm here to talk about our CPA recommendations and process from this past cycle fiscal year 24. My intent is to go through a slideshow describing it with a brief summary of the projects, talk about them and then thereafter, open up the questions. This is the fiscal year 24 commencing in June, July 1 of next year of this year, excuse me, or our Community Preservation Act committee. Next slide please. I want to call attention to our membership. We are comprised of eight individuals we have one vacancy of member at large. I'm the chair member at large Tim Neil, Vice Chair, Katie Allen Zobel member at large, Robin Forden, representing the Historical Commission. Also representing the Planning Board, David Williams representing the Housing Authority, Matt Kane representing the Recreation Commission, and Michelle labby representing the Conservation Commission. Next slide. So this is a quick chart summarizing the dollar amounts of our recommended appropriation for fiscal year 24 by category. I think we had quite a lot of quite some very large requests. That's the largest component, 67% of the total recommended appropriation 1.879 million and change. Historical preservation 366,759 is 13% open space. There weren't any proposals there was some debt financing from private years so it rounds down to 0% but it's 6,180 and recreation 54650 and 19%. Again, the total is 2.79 million $419. Next slide. So this is just a list of the proposals that we recommended. There are some other proposals as well I saw that there was another chart in the packet here that somebody put together the money maybe the proposals in the financing this mirrors it. So this is by category, affordable housing development for the affordable housing trust ball lane community homes, the East street belch town road, affordable housing project, and the Amherst community connections supportive housing phase two, and historic preservation So we have the Amherst historical society museum Mabel Loomis Todd paintings, restoration preservation, the Wildwood Amherst cemetery association the Dickinson farmhouse roof, the Amherst historical commission historic barn and the Amherst management pilot program, the South congregational church steeple repair. No request for open space and in recreation town of Amherst recreation and passive conservation area improvements. For the Fort River community recreational fields project, and two from the town of Amherst relating to the war Memorial pool one for the bathhouse and area, preliminary design and one for the actual pool improvements. Next slide. There are a few proposals that we also had that we did not make recommendations for. There's the North Amherst church building current church occupants being the Amherst Zion Church, which we deferred the town, preparing historic preservation restrictions on CPA funded projects, we did not fund that will reference that in the individual projects. The Crocker Farms playground and construction at the Amherst public schools was withdrawn and CPA administrative expenses. It wasn't a formal proposal submittal but we've considered 25,000 and we did not fund that. Next slide please. So the first, I'm going to go one by one on the ones we recommended the first one was the affordable housing funding for the Amherst municipal affordable housing trust. They asked for in their submittal $500,000. We recommended 225,000 after discussion on an approval vote of seven, seven in favor. None against and one member absent absent member from all of the votes. There is a very source of funding for initiating projects that relate to development for affordable housing. I'm sure the committee years familiar with many of them. The current budget of 600 current existing balance of 600,000 of CPA funds in the affordable housing trust and that influenced our decision to award a reduced amount. I will say that we had a challenging process this year because we had requests in total that greatly exceeded our available balance. Before we met to deliberate and vote on the various proposals, we reached out to all of the applicants and we asked them all two questions. One was, does this project need to go forward this year or could it be delayed for a different fiscal year cycle. And the other question was, can this project proceed with a lower amount than originally requested and we received written responses from all of the different applicants which led to some of the changes that existed here so this one was a 225 recommendation the committee supports the affordable housing trust but want to take into account the fact that there's an existing $600,000 balance. Next slide. Community housing at the ball lane community homes submitted by Valley Community Development Corporation. They submitted 750,000 in their proposal, and they indicated that they needed to retain that full amount. The committee voted seven in favor, none against and one member absent to recommend this proposal. This is an interesting proposal for Amherst. It is to build 30 or 32 depending basically 15 or 16 duplex houses as indicated in the little photo here on ball lane, and this is an 8.33 acre parcel. 20 of the homes that will be developed will be restricted for sale to load a moderate income first time home buyer households with the rate remainder and 10 to 12 being sold at market rate. The goal of the project is to increase the home ownership. Specifically, it was backed by and funded by the Commonwealth Builder Program. The goal of the Commonwealth Builder Program is to increase home ownership from disproportionately impacted households, which is the primary source of the program and to increase home ownership opportunities for minority households and shrink the race based home ownership gap in the state. The $750 represents approximately 5% of the 15.8 million dollar project and would be allocated towards development costs so the committee was in favor of this supporting this proposal. The other large dollar amount housing proposal was community housing on the East Street School and Belcher Town Road housing projects. They're considered to be a single proposal developed or submitted by wayfinders who was a partner with the town. This is a an image that we're seeing right there is the Belcher Town Road draft. This is going to lead to 70 new units that will be allocated between the two different buildings they had asked for $1.8 million initially. And after consulting with town staff and in recognition of the fact that the town had already provided significant value with the contribution of the land and the land lease, which vary between $1.5 million value. The town decided that it made sense to reduce the dollar amount. We had a suggestion that there was an additional $600,000 that could be allocated from other town funds that would be previous CPA and ARPA funds for a total contribution of 1 million. And that was for the CPA loaded for $400,000. The thought was that $400,000 plus additional funds coming from other location besides CPA would lead to a $1 million town contribution. In addition to the land that was already provided. The possibility that wayfinders may come back to CPA in the future. So this is a significant reduction from what was asked but it does provide backing for the project and the committee was very much in favor of this. The breakdown of the houses in this units in this unit in this proposal fall within four different categories. And there will be 18 units that must be rented to households with incomes at or below 30% of the median area income. 15 units that must be rented to households that meet the mass workforce housing program requirements and 10 units that don't have any income restrictions it'll be a lottery process to turn to determine who wins or is able to rent under these programs. And that lottery process is opened up to a greater area than just Amherst is to the Hampshire County greater area. Next slide. My thought is I'll just go through these and then we'll open up the questions that and totally after the fact. The Amherst community connections phase to this is a repeat of a prior award. This is the second cycle. $205,000 to 205,200 dollars, six in favor one against and one absent. We funded the full request for a three year program for 12 household units household units is comprised of either families or individuals. Typically it's around a 5050 basis. This is a demonstrated successful program that has both the both the funding of $400 per month rent for each successful applicant but also the requirement that they meet with support case workers and wrap around those with the goal of getting the at risk households to be independent and successful. After about 15 months for families and after about nine months for individuals it's been very successful and the community felt that appropriate to award this three year program. Next. Next slide. So this is one of the an image of one of the paintings, the Amherst historical society and museum, placed a request to restore five paintings by Mabel, women's pod. The paintings are in various states of disrepair. They're fragile and damaged, and the museum is selected the are Michael's and galleries to do the work on these commencing in July of next year, assuming the funding comes through July of this year, excuse me. The paintings represent the work of a skilled female artist from an earlier time and the museum is planning a new exhibition featuring the works later this summer, but the paintings cannot be displayed until they're appeared. So many voted seven in favor zero against and one absent from the full request of 16,450. Next slide. This is a photo of the Amherst Cemetery Association that Dickinson farmhouse building, and it realized this but this is one of the oldest houses in Amherst built around 1790 was deeded to the Amherst Cemetery Association in 1897 by Fidelia Dickinson. The roof has needs to be repaired it has leaking and openings around the chimney exposing the structure to ongoing damage from the elements. The CPA pun funds will be used to fully replace the roof and underlying plywood and moldings. The request that came in was for $143,478. After we communicated what needed to get done this year and also in recognition that CPA historic preservation funds cannot be used to repair chimneys. The request by the applicant was lowered to $97,020. The committee added $5,000 to this proposal, and to the other historic preservation building proposals for HPR restrictions historic preservation restrictions. We communicated with the state CPA coalition you indicated that the appropriate way to fund historic preservation restriction work legal work is to add a dollar amount to the proposal. And the town staff indicated that 5000 seem to be an appropriate amount for that type of work, any unused funds would be returned to the CPA committee that is to say the $5,000 HPR amount is limited specifically and exclusively to the legal work. So this is an interesting building. It's also houses the office of the cemetery association. And the committee wanted to support it. Next slide. The Amherst historical commission wishes to create a pilot program with the goal of reducing the volume of destruction, the ongoing destruction or demolition of historic barns in Amherst. The original request was 15,000 it was reduced to 10,000 the assumption it would be about a two year attempt. There's been about 21 barns that have been demolished since 2017. This plan would provide funding in partnership with owners on a 5050 basis to get an assessment of what work would be needed on the barn. It's an incentive to try to spur owners to take action to identify what's needed to save the barns to small dollar amount. And the committee was in favor of supporting it, seven in favor zero against one absent on a pilot basis to see how it goes. Next slide. This is an image of the South congregational church in the town common steeple restoration if you look at the photo you can see that the steeple is tilted to the southeast. The committee voted to award 238,289 dollars. That includes $5,000 for historic preservation restriction legal work on a seven favor zero against one absent vote. The steeple is at risk it has damaged supporting beams. There's an extensive proposal on the committee website that you can look at but essentially they need to get repaired in a timely manner it's a building that was dedicated in 1825 approaching 200 year anniversary. It houses a 850 pound revere company, Bell in the top as well as a 200 pound weather vane. So, they had to remove those for the time being within the weight. The original request was $259,210. The committee, the church group reduced their request to $233,000. They are funding the engineering work on the front end themselves. So this is something they're hoping to get done on us. Hopefully some next slide. This is submittal from the town of Amherst for recreation and passive conservation area improvements. There's an ongoing backlog of work needed on the extensive trails and Amherst there's 80 miles of trails 2000 acres of open space that the town manages. The work will and the funds will be applied towards repairs of trails bridges, bog bridges parking signage pieces, sell accessibility improvements, etc, including materials and rental equipment. It's not enough to do all of the work. One had requested $100,000 the committee voted to lower that amount to 70,000, given the current constraints that we faced on a seven to zero to one absent vote. Next slide. This is the Fort River Community Recreation Fields project. This is an application that was submitted proposal that was submitted by town residents as listed here on screen. This is from the city of Perkins, Tony Cunningham. This seeks funding to in support of the fields affiliated with the school project. The image here is the current existing layout of the fields the actual location where the new fields will be remains to be determined. The request came in at, I believe it was $3 million and included funding for lights and a comfort station. After we went back to all the applicants, they lowered the request to 2.2 million dollars, removing the lights and the comfort stations which came from the fields aspect. The, this project was supported by the Amherst School Committee on a four to zero vote. And the school superintendent also express broad support for this proposal in that same school committee meeting, as well as for the withdrawn crocker farm playground fields. There is discussion on this proposal among the committee, two members submitted a minority report expressing an opposing view to going forward. I'll reference what what they said in that they're objected to the funding based on the process because it was submitted by school by town residents as opposed to an official town entity. That's the summation the essence of it. The fact that excuse me, that it's a significant dollar amount that will lead to reduce few future funds available to the committee to the tune of about $100,000 in each year so they're thinking that it's a large request that would prevent other projects from potentially going forward. The third was that the excuse me. That there's a reasonable probability that this project would be able to receive funds from a different source specifically being the town override therefore if the funds were available from the town override why would you need CPA. That was submitted by two members Tim Neil and Andy McDougal. The other six members voted in favor of the 700,000 the absent member signed on to the minority report. This had great community support, we received many many letters and comments from residents regarding the fields and the wide, wide usage among residents community members and various sports organizations such as Ultimate Frisbee and Ameth Youth Soccer Association. One aspect of it that led some members to vote in favor was the the prospect of value engineering reducing some of the plans for the fields that is to say. If the budget gets tight down the road on this project and they're looking to cut costs or shave various areas. It's conceivable that some of the full extent of fields improvements might not be included but with CPA funds. And I think that's one of the things that led to this that would help to retain those improvements in the field they couldn't be value engineering engineered out for lack of a better term. Next slide. Well, this is an image of it in its current or recent form. There were two requests affiliated with this one was for the bathhouse, which is on the right hand side just behind the tree there in the lower right and area preliminary design. It was a $200,000 request that was approved and full on a seven in favor, zero opposed and one absent. The bathhouse is in significant it's built originally in 1953. According to town staff it's in great need of repair and soon will not be functional. But it's not just the bathhouse there's a greater plan that Western and Samson had submitted to the town that would include potentially community fields in the greater area. And the question is, what might the new plan and bathhouse look like shouldn't include access to just the pool area or shouldn't include community fields, etc. What was to be deliberate in the process for coming up with a future plan that makes sense for this area and dedicating funds on the front end to that planning so the bathhouse and the, you know what would the greater area be what would it look like. The committee was fully in support of this, which is why we voted to allocate and proceed with the planning. Next slide. The separate from the future plans in the bathhouse is the existing pool, which has a number of issues. The request was from 133,000 which the town approved the CPA committee approved on a six to one one absent vote. The American with Disabilities Act the lift chair is not functioning currently. The pool lining that is to say, the mouth that retains the water needs replacement and there's a significant water leak in the pool drainage system. And we were told by town staff that it's estimated loss of up to 2000 and gallons each day that the pool is filled. So there's significant problem that exists here that needs to get addressed. And if not, this pool is not likely to stay open. There was community support in favor of this and the recognition that this is a very widely utilized asset recreational asset for the town. Okay. Next slide. So there were a few proposals that the committee did not recommend at this time. This is an image of the historic North Amherst church building at the intersection of pine street and where South Pleasant meets route 63, right by that little intersection by the old North Amherst school building. It's currently occupied by the Amherst Zion church who are the applicants. They were seeking funding for a range of work that's needed most specifically the roof, but the proposal lacked some details. And the committee wish to receive for the details which we hope to get sometime in the next month. So that's the goal of the secondary request they initially asked for 650,000. When we came back asking for what do you really need for this year they reduce the amount to 163 seven. And we'll see what they say the 163 seven represents the amount that if our proposals are all approved will be the remaining cash balance. So we've set aside unallocated cash balance one to consider this proposal at a later time. Next slide. This is an image of the preschool playground at the Crocker farm school. It's widely utilized, but the applicants withdrew this proposal when we indicated and when they saw the dollar amount of requests and the available funding with the thought that they would resubmit this request next year because the last year funds had been allocated for a to develop a specific plan and design for the repair that has yet to occur. It's apt to occur this summer. And once that information arrives, the applicant will be in a better position to provide a more detailed request. So this was 450 supported by the school committee but deferred or withdrawn actually by the applicant. Next slide. Those are requests from the town for funding for historic preservation restrictions they had asked for $20,000 recognizing that there are various proposals where CPA money is provided but there's a need for generating the legal documentation. The city and the town recognize town staff recognize that the appropriate way to actually fund this is to add specific dollar amounts to approved requests such as the Dickinson farmhouse if it goes forward, the south church, etc. So we did not fund this one. Next slide. For the administration we currently have about a $54,000 unused dollar amount in that budget. It funds various needs advertising, signage, etc. Administration fees, the committee recognized that the money could be best used elsewhere. Unlike last year for a general reserve, we decided to not retain any specific specific general reserve fund at this time, although we'll see what occurs with the 160,000 that we're considering for allocation to the north church. Next slide. We also had to approve debt service. What you see in front of you is a list of the various properties or projects that have debt schedules. And the various years the project name what year and what the situation, for example, Belcher Tom Road, second year out of 1081,600. The total of all of these debt payments for fiscal year 2024 is 443,460. We approved it on a seven in favor, zero against and one absent. Next slide. So Sam, thank you very much. That's the ad right. That's it you may want to look at the report and the debt schedule. I know some folks had asked about that, but if you want to talk about this specific project that would be fine as well. Thank you for sticking with me. What I'm thinking of doing is asking for questions and I'm going to take them in order that they came but as questions come in about specific projects. I'm going to pause after that presentation and see if there are other questions about the specific question project. This is the source of the first question so that we can bundle all the questions about projects that people want to raise in a logical grouping. But I don't want to go project by project because I would just take more time. So I'll start with Lynn because her hand went up first and I don't know if you have more than one project and pause after the first and we'll see. But I'm going to actually go backwards. I didn't see the high, the commitment to the high school field. And I'm assuming it's because we, they haven't started yet. Why weren't they listed. You're referring to the nine to the amount that was allocated a few years ago the debt schedule doesn't commence until the following year, not in fiscal year 2024. And there was no amount to recommend for this cycle. And there's no long term borrowing at this point because they haven't started yet. Correct. And if we look at the report on the debt schedule that I referenced a minute ago, it would be show when that would kick in. Thank you. I'm going to stop there. I have other questions, but please go ahead. Since it's hard to do it any other way if somebody has something to ask about that. I should go ahead, Linda, do you want to ask any other questions if nobody's speaking up or Kathy has her hand up. Okay, I'll go Kathy then. Okay, thank you. Thank you, Sam for that presentation. And I want to make a couple comments and then I have one question. I'm, I'm the liaison to the CPAC group so I for the most part try to either rewatch afterwards but I watch the meetings. So one comment I want to make is I think the way you've pieced together with town staffs help the housing projects to make them all the big projects get in was remarkable and a really, and they're, they're fabulous so I just the ball lane up in the North Amherst part of town. When you mentioned that the community fields have a lot of support. The level of turnout when the group that's designing them showed how they were going to do that up here at Amherst by neighbors was overwhelmingly positive. People were really thrilled with the project. It fits really well. So I'm glad that it could move forward, because they are really big projects. So, at least I have one other comment and then my question on the community fields I saw one of the objections was that it came from residents. I mean the residents are also users of those fields so there is an opening to those proposals I actually was about to draft a proposal similar to what they did. I don't know where the numbers was when I saw they'd already submitted it and I'm, I'm on as the chair of the housing committee, and as a member of the finance committee and on the council, and as liaison it wasn't clear that I could even submit a proposal so I was really delighted to see that they have one and I spoke in favor of that. I think it will, it helps a lot to show the larger community that there is support for the field aspect of the school because this is beyond the playing fields that the little elementary school kids will use so it does reduce the tax burden but it's very explicit what it's for. So my question is on the housing proposals. You, you clarified on East Pleasant, the East Street School in Belcherton that we've already as a town both given a property to the trust and then bought another property. And so there's a substantial investment and then there's another big ask that's being matched by ARPA. So, this may be a bigger question, Sean and Paul as these proposals come up. It would be useful I think to know the likelihood of the project coming back again for more money. You know, there's the, the first round to ask them there's the second round ass and the third I know that level is so uncertain, but it's, it's, it's a forward looking way on on we don't want to pull out of any of these projects at a key juncture and what the conditions are so I have no problem with the project going forward but to say that we've already spent about 1.2 million if you do the value of the land and the accurate purchase and now we've got another 600,000 plus another $4 million. And then you said, and they may be back. And I don't know whether I don't know whether that's also true for ball lane. So it's not a question as much of you is that the town when the big housing projects come forward that we can look for look into the future. So the last piece, Lynn, I think it's useful the way they've been doing the debt on the fields and other things is that debt schedule looks out into the future. So you can see that we're, we're paying off some of it. And so I had wondered, for example, where's the Jones library million dollars it's sitting there, you know it's contingent on the project moving forward so we haven't spent any money. And so my question on the fields is linked to that the financial order that's in our packet, but the fields, the wording, my understanding it would be contingent on the school project moving forward you're not just giving $700,000 toward the fields so I think somewhere you need to, to write that wording that that we've got a contingency, the way you did on the amount toward the track and field that you what it was for but it was also contingent on the bigger project so it's those two comment questions on those and, and that's it. Let me let me respond quickly I realized you referenced others on the most recent comment, we actually did I was negligent and not referencing in the presentation because I was trying to go quickly. The motion that passed for the Fort River community field as opposed to that one by the high school was contingent upon this school override passing specifically. It was referenced within the motion that the award was contingent upon that. The East Street School and Beltran Road reference to they might be back. It was discussed, although in our conversations and questions and answers with the applicants wayfinders. They indicated that they're likely to proceed with the project, regardless of whether or not CPA provides the funding, but they need to come up with that funding from somewhere. And if they don't, there may be some all use the phrase value engineering they didn't to the proposal there's various enhancements that you know bells and whistles or actually really desirable aspects of the project that might be shaved if they ran into financing problems specifically, some of the energy efficiency aspects of it. Some of the different certificate they may not get the certifications for I forgot the phrase related with it one was passive. You'll have to look it up but there are various energy efficiency certifications that were apt to occur with the proposal and if they don't have the sufficient amount of funding, they may have to rework things. That's the same as that with the million dollars that the amount CPA is giving plus the thing or is that if you didn't give it. They came to CPA for $1.8 million and we awarded 400,000. So their, their desired initial request was for 1.8 million, which is about 6% of the total project costs about it currently estimated at $30 million project. So they came for a certain amount for initial development engineering costs. We had a dilemma as a committee in terms of how we're going to fund all this varying projects luckily town staff were fairly resourceful in analyzing the situation. And the other thing to recognize is that the wayfinders is in partnership with the town they, the town went out to submitted bids and wayfinders was the was awarded the proposal to come up with this plan. So the answer to your question was that was based on the 1.8 million and we came in at 400,000 and based on a before we awarded the 400,000 they said if they ran into problems. If they didn't have enough money they're going to have to get that money from somewhere, whatever that might be. Okay, but you said, I mean, maybe Paul and Sean or Dave, but you said, the town can pull on some other resources the opera money, correct so it's not just 400, you said the total is a million is what I heard, yeah, we were informed of that by town staff. And that was a factor in our deliberations, the CPA committee though has our own budget and we voted to allocate recommend $400,000 in consideration of all the information that we received from town staff and the applicants. Okay, is it okay if I add a little bit Andy. Yeah, I'll be quick. Round one of our but we allocated a million dollars for affordable housing. Dave is omac is sort of in charge of that project and he's in contact with wayfinders as noted their partner. There's no set amount set in stone for how much would go there but I think Dave's going to work with them to assess level of need to make sure the project moves forward, but also being mindful of other sources of funding that might be available. I don't think we're looking to use all of that are funding for this project. If there's, if we can save some for other projects in the future. And David might want to respond specifically to that one too. Anything to add. Are any committee members. Questions about this project also please let me know. Andy real quickly I know you're you're on on schedule here. Yeah, we are, we are talking with wayfinders we have almost weekly meetings with them. I think the number that we are currently landed on is about 600,000 and ARPA money so we will not be spending all of that $1 million that John just referenced. So to Kathy's point earlier point, there will likely be a package of about a million dollars. And I have sent a very clear message to wayfinders that between the land donation of the street school and the belch down road, as well as the CPA and the ARPA funds that the town's commitment is very strong for the project, but would likely not go beyond this. And that in the context of we are all we are all well aware of the escalating costs and construction so I really want to be respectful of wayfinders. We, we all know because there are multiple projects, building projects going on in town right now are being proposed. So wayfinders is experiencing the same cost escalation that we are, whether it be school whether it be library whether it be Valley CDC project up in Northammer so it's all the same environment out there it is incredibly expensive per square foot. But I think a million dollars in CPA and ARPA and then the land donation is hopefully quite a quite a nice package that we are presenting to wayfinders so they can then go out and as Sam said raise roughly 25 to 30 million in total for the project. Thank you. Anybody who from the committee have followed questions on this. When you're raising your hand. Yeah, it's really a statement and that is that I would hate to see us compromise on energy saving measures on any building that the town is investing in. And so if the different and yet I know that CPA specifically can't be used that way but this is where other funds might be. I just feel very strongly that we do not want to be building any buildings anymore that don't have the maximum energy savings we can afford. Thank you. Anything else anybody else wanting to raise them. The street school of Elstrad, other guys Bob. Yeah, I just wanted to circle back on the Fort River Recreation Fields proposal. What are these fields located with respect to the floodplain the thousand year floodplain and the other floodplains. That's the first question. The second is, what are the maintenance the annual maintenance costs and who is going to take who's going to assume responsibility for maintenance. Who's the question directed to. Yeah, the answer but he has a hand up. Okay, it's these will be, if you think of where the current school is Bob. This is that school comes down. And then there's four acres to the north of the new school. And part of the cost of the project is bringing raising the fill and putting some gravel underneath to get much better drainage to re reinstate the playing fields if you think of the street schools it's about four acres, and that pretty much becomes town recreation department and that's the way it has been before, you know that it's, they those are the schools use them to so the question of exactly who does each piece who mows it, but the CPE teams play on it. The, but there's adult softball that's not a town's, you know, and a soccer teams recreational soccer teams so the recreation director didn't come to the CPE meeting but I went separately to him and said are you strongly in favor of this he said absolutely those fields are a huge part of what we have to offer the town. So, and then, you know, I think that's the only that I'll have to stop there because that that is clearly an issue one of the issues for the current fields, if you want, is that they're lighting on them, and it's been an ongoing who pays for that electricity so they, they divvy up the electric bills what is actually the schools use and what you know so it's already been a there's a recreation department part of this so the maintenance long term will have to be hopefully they will be better drained and you know we'll have a good set of fields so that the major issue in the fields have been drainage. And can I add a little bit. Yes, Kathy noted there's a little bit of a partnership to how the grounds are maintained around Fort River between public works and the school staff. One thing that will come back to finance committee at some point is in the, at least in the preliminary capital plan right now the DPW has proposed some additional field equipment to help better maintain some of the recreational fields we have, I think a machine like an aerator and, and similar types of things like that so. So there's a request for additional funding in the capital plan currently for some more field equipment. Anybody else just with your hand. Thanks. So I was going to our first question is in the application for the four overfields. Which option ultimately the application included several diagrams that I think kind of get at what Bob was talking about with regards to proximity to the actual river and I'm curious which option is the one that's being utilized like which one is the money going towards Kathy do you know. I don't have their pictures in front of them but it's, it's the pictures you've been seeing at the council. It's so it's, it's directly north, and it's quite far from the flood flood. So it's, if you think of where the current school is, where the basketball court is to the north of the school, you know, where that you pull into where the gym is. So it's quite far from that and they've gone before the conservation commission. So the designers with the site have gone in and they flagged all the area, and there was an agreement on on what they demarc if you're better at. I'm not using the right technical terms, but both for wetlands and for floodplain. So, so those two pieces. They did their due diligence through. To have a discussion of it and they brought in the fields and wetlands person to talk about vegetation with Eric, Aaron, Aaron helped us a lot on that helped us help the design team. Yeah, thank you. Yeah just confirming that that was the same plan that went before concom was was this so. So I'm curious with the budget reductions on this, I see that the applicants removed the lighting and the bathrooms. I assume that that responsibility will now go to the town if we would like to have comfort stations and lighting, which seem important given that they're there now. And so I wanted to confirm that that's not being eliminated in total, which kind of gets at my next question which is did the committee have discussion about how I am in support of this funding. But did the committee have a conversation on how this is not budget supplanting and what was the rationale behind that. And, and the, the first question regarding lighting and comfort stations are understanding this committee is that it's not part of the current existing proposal was an actor that was considered by the town residents. I mean, I've been involved with the soccer association and it's widely utilized to go down there on a Saturday in the spring, you'll see hundreds of kids and families it's really a great place. But that's not, that was not something that was a part of the proposal for us, part of the school building proposal, it was an original part of the Fort River applicants looking for fields money proposal. But the school committee voted to endorse the fields component up to about 2.4 million whatever was desired. But they did not endorse the lighting or the comfort station so that's the answer to your first question, hopefully the fields component did not come before the, the comfort station and the field funding were removed by the applicants from their request of the CPA committee. Your second question was regarding. Can you repeat it again. Sure. I'm just really briefly on that it might be helpful if, if things that just for record keeping in the future and might be really helpful if applications are updated to include the updated application in the, on the website because they, the only ones I have access to are the ones that still had the lighting in the bathrooms in it. And then the second question was if you could address how this is not budget supplanting, just so for your mind that'd be great. Sure. Good suggestion Anna, and as you well know having sat on the committee you're familiar. It was kind of a quick back and forth after the committee emailed all the applicants, asking that they review their proposals in terms of is it needed this year and where can they cut costs. And the time frame where all the applicants came back to us so it didn't, we didn't ask that they updated the original proposals, it could be considered in the future. In terms of budget supplanting, we had conversations in the committee. We reached out I emailed and spoke with the CPA coalition. The question of supplanting is when funding, when funding has already been awarded that is to say if the town votes to approve the override and that plan is going forward, then it's on budget, and anything that you allocate towards that approved plan that's going forward could be considered replacing an expense that the town already has. So right now, the school project is not approved. There's not funding for it at present it's going to be coming before the town residents to vote on funding for it. Until that occurs. There's nothing to supplant. The override vote and the official plans for the town would be the line of demarcation, where funding might become supplanting another component affiliated without on it is that part of the applicants motivation for the submittal on Fort River fields was that the funding could be utilized to when it gets down to the details of actually designing and building out the program, there'll be money that can be used to retain some of the bells and whistles for lack of a better term of the improved fields that might not be there otherwise so that wouldn't be supplanting either. But yeah we did have thorough discussions related to that both in the committee and we also reached out elsewhere. I'm sure you did I knew I wouldn't be the first person to ask that question I think I'm still having a little bit of a brain break around it's then being contingent on the on the on the vote from the town because then it does it comes after but I hear what you're saying and I had those same thoughts. And last question I have on this is, how did you get to 700 from 1000 from the 2.4 million. Well that's a good question. We had varying opinions on the proposals, some folks may have wanted to fund a wanted to support it, but perhaps in a lower dollar amount. And look at the video recordings of the meetings you'll see it but what we wound up doing was finding out who was in favor of the project to some degree, and who was against the project regardless of the dollar amount. And from there we incrementally proposed dollar amounts, kind of like an auction. Would you support $200,000 anyone who's in favor of that raise your hand, 300,000 raise your hand and members would drop off and we arrived at a point. It was 600,000 or 700,000 and they went to 700,000 and stopped so we incrementally started from the bottom and see, we wanted to. At least I wanted the committee to have broad support for whatever projects we were in favor of so that the town and the community would recognize that it wasn't you know a controversial vote so to speak.  Let's start at this dollar amount. We started I believe it 150 or 200,000 and then we went up. They originally asked for 3 million on this particular project it was reduced to 2.4 2.2 million after the presentation and lighting was taken in. And then there was various discussion with what we could actually afford as committee and where we go so that's my long winded answer to your question. Thank you Sam. Next time. What if you started at the top and went lower, so the bottom one. Thank you. Thank you. Anything else somebody wants to ask about the river project. Yes, here's how your hand up. Yeah, I just want to make one quick comment on on what's the long term plan on lighting or comfort station that is that clearly is a town decision but right now, there is a plan on the lighting is to create a conduit box. When they're redoing the fields. So if there's a desire to put lighting in there's a place to hitch it up that would be on its own meter. Not on the school's meter, you know so that is, that's a provision in in the, because they're going to be ripping up all the ground so just having a place for the future. And then the the displacement it really is a discussion if we fund it now it's part of the funding process package and I don't know how many people remember Sean's very elegant. What's what's the debt exclusion, he has subtracted that money he's he's in that package is assuming 700,000 is being funded a different way. So, so it can go forward, and it's our taxpayer dollars so I mean we we can be packaging that way. That's it. Open that. I do have one follow up comment when you reference the importance of seeking to retain energy efficiencies and whatever buildings that we generate. We did as a committee ask all the applicants, a series of questions related to their projects. This was the one related to the wayfinders. The question that came up in 2012 was, is this project likely to proceed regardless of CPA award amount way, and the responses wayfinders would likely proceed without receiving a CPA award without a CPA award receiving a funding award from DHCD and mass housing may take potentially projected due to local financial contribution developments that are presented to see DC HD without substantial local financial contributions are not eligible for all competitive funding rounds. And here's the part that addresses the energy. Additionally, we would need to reconsider pursuing enterprise green communities and passive house certifications. The use of highly sustainable and resilient materials, including the installation of photovoltaics. I wanted to read that to be clearer in what their precise response was. Thank you. Thank you, I was going to move on to a different topic if that's go for it. Okay, so the one that's sticking in my brain a little bit is actually the smallest one so I will rely on my colleagues to tell me to move on if they feel I'm spending too much time on it but it's the, I think it's the smallest one the historic far barn fund. So I had a couple questions on this one because it stuck out to me, partially because while I was on CPA we had. We saw multiple or we saw different requests for different barns that needed renovation or needed, you know, wanted to be reused for other things. First off, I hear what you're saying Sam that, you know, this is only part of the funding that there would have to be matching funds from the owner of the barn is the vision for this. I think it looks like a very small amount given what we've seen in the past four costs for historic historic barn anything. And so I was, I was just noting that it does seem like a very low amount to actually make substantial change. And then there have been, hang on I'm looking. Are there restrictions that are. Is this kind of getting around a lot of the historic preservation requirements that are usually placed are that are typically placed on properties that utilize historic preservation funds. So I guess my question being, you know, are we, are we sort of helping people to skirt having to come to CPA themselves in doing this. Because CPA funds can't be used to determine whether something is historic or not, and there are different, you know, different requirements that are placed on CPA funds so is this. And maybe that's not, and maybe that's not a problem if it is but are these being used to sort of skirt some of the other CPA requirements, or would funds, would projects that receive these funds because they're from CPA, then be bound by those CPA requirements does that make sense. Part of the rules go I guess is my question. It does and thank you I appreciate and appreciate committee. Your. Is there is that me or is that someone else. Can you guys hear the feedback there. No, sorry. Appreciate your detailed way of looking at things. This is not something that is going to circumvent CPA requirements or HBR this is an assessment program where the where the output of the program would be an indication of what would be required to repair the barn. In other words what condition is the barn in, as opposed to we're fixing it. So it's an assessment of where things stand with a match, a limited match I mean, it would be like $5,000 each year across the entire program to pilot program to try and get from the historical commission they're the ones who this originated with them to try to get those who are barns that are significant to consider repairing them rather than demolishing them so it's not for the actual work it would be an indication of what would be needed it would be the first step for lack of a better term in someone considering what are we going to do with our barn. I don't know if that answers it in pale but that we talked to know it does. Yeah, it does it's helpful I just I think what I wanted to know is, as long as it wasn't getting at the idea of helping someone determine whether or not the barn was historic. Or if that even mattered because the money had been allocated to the historic commission and they can do whatever they want, not bound by CPA rules. It was a little bit of a loop in my head so I think you answered it as best it can be answered. There's a lot of fine lines with all the various aspects but the committee seemed to think it was worthwhile. And did they anticipate coming back in future years to increase the amount if this is a pilot and would it be the same amount in future years. We really don't know that didn't come up it was genuinely a pilot to see let's see how this goes it's kind of a creative way to try and address something that's going on. Yeah it's really it's it's an exciting pilot. Thank you. So I have one quick question of my own so I was waiting till the end, when nobody else had questions on Amherst Community Connections proposal. What's always been different about their proposals is that they address housing by another means than building something. That is subsidizing. And there's always been questions when back when I was liaison to the CPA committee years ago as a member of the select board. The proposals that were of a similar nature. So I had asked this question, I think a year ago and I don't, I just sort of a follow up to that which is, has any attempt been made by town staff or the CPA committee to evaluate the value and success of the prior programs that have used that travel to decide whether this is the best use of funds that are generally used for building something for this other approach. Well my response if you're asking me would be no formal attempt has been made to my knowledge to specifically request the information but when we discuss it we do ask the applicants with an indication of what their success rate has been in the past, not from a not from a subsidy versus a construction standpoint of buildings versus rent subsidies but rather from their success of the individual families and or applicants who received the subsidies. They have a unique program where they don't just provide the rental subsidies which you're probably familiar Andy they, they also wrap it around with support services they mandate that any recipients attend once a week meetings because there's all sorts of varying support programs that are out there, but it's very hard to navigate so they have a two phased program where the families and individuals who are at risk or homeless or at risk of being homeless can receive some support to keep them in the, in the housing, but at the same time indicate that you must come in and receive some of the various support services that we have. They indicated that they've had great success with those requirements of subsidies of being able to become independent they indicated that it's about a 15 months time frame for families from when they come into the program to be able to be independent for lack of a better term. And it's a quicker process with individuals about eight months on average, because they don't have the same burdens that families do. The extent of the inquiry that we've made informal as a part of our questions not a formal, and certainly not a comparison of the value of building units versus subsidies. Hopefully that helps. Dave, your hand up. Yeah, Andy, I would I would just add very briefly that I, I have been an advocate actually for us doing kind of a deeper dive of some sort of an audit and a, you know, looking at some of the numbers of these programs particularly in Amherst community connections I doing most of the work that I do with my staff in in our efforts to build more housing in Amherst and in the region. I was just on an hour and a half call this morning where, where there is, there is real, there is real crisis out there and in terms of housing availability but there's also some hope on the horizon with with some of the money is coming from the federal government and the state government with regard to, to building more units so I am a big advocate of, of trying to build our way out of some of the crisis that is here in the, in the, in the region. This is not a this is not unique to Amherst it's a regional issue we are not going to solve it alone. We are we Amherst are not going to build our way out of this. There is far more need far more demand than there is supply there probably always will be, but I think the more units we build the better. But I do think we ought to take a look at, we have invested hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars in this program and I think, I think it would be a good time perhaps in in the future. You know the next year or so to look at the effectiveness of essentially paying some of these, these subsidies versus putting that funding into into actually building units so we could certainly look at that, based on your, your inquiry, Andy. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, Andy I think my question was similar to yours and we've been seeing phase one phase two phase three from the same group for a couple cycle for at least since at least since 2020 and it sounds like since before then through CPA and so I was just I was curious about what how many kind of how there's we've, we've done it and what we know about the results so far and I know that whaling greeny includes a lot of really really wonderful statistics about how they've been able to support the community but I wasn't sure what feedback the committee had asked for. And then my second question is, is the town, does the town have an official agreement that they've entered into with Amherst community connections around this program specifically and that's a question I think for Dave is that is there a formal agreement in place with this program. Very, very quickly anyone who receives CPA fundings there is a grant agreement that is developed through my office and the accounting department that follows all CPA dollars so so any recipient for any of the four categories does have a grant agreement. Okay, but, but beyond the CPA dollars there's not an official agreement or partnership with the town, and this particular program. Beyond the CPA component. There's some there's some CDBG in there as well isn't there hasn't there been the past. There has been CDBG funding in the past. Yeah, but not for this part of the program so I guess on a yeah there's nothing more formal beyond that, that kind of partnership on a project level. Okay, thank you. Okay, yeah, I'll just. I'm going to figure out how long it's been since I've been on the select board which obviously is predates the council being in existence. It's been at least 10 years that this program and some essentially the same form but with different phases has been in existence so it might be something that is worth thinking about assisting the committee. With the evaluation of the appropriate stage for future. Matt. Thanks Andy and I just want to apologize because I am traveling so I'm not able to participate fully but I just wanted to extend my thanks to Sam and the entire committee because I, I am part of a similar, well smaller but a similar council that does distribute tax funds and I know how much time and effort I thought goes into this process and so, you know, I just wanted to say I really appreciate that work and then I do, I do also appreciate the resident proposal to support the fields and Fort River I think that's a key piece of our overall approach to the project. So anyway, thank you. Thank you Matt. Two things. I also want to say thank you to Sam and the committee and for all your hard work and explain that I've had my picture off because I'm having internet instability. And at the last meeting I had a dramatic departure in the middle of a vote. So, I'm trying to avoid that. Andy, do you want to take any of these for recommendation to the council tonight. I was, I think that it is up to the committee, knowing what our time is and how much they want to spend for the next for the remaining items including community public comment, but I do need to remind everybody that there are two proposed orders that are in the packet and have been around for a while because they came by way of the council. And so what we will need to do either today or at our meeting a week from today is probably have somebody for each of these or the commission as to whether the committee is recommending those orders to the council and then have discussion and vote on it. And I am not wed to having that today but it does have to happen by next week if we're going to meet the schedule that the council has because I just so that everybody's aware of it. There is a public forum. I believe on the schedule this in the CPA vote. And I think the CPA vote is scheduled for March 6 is that from what I have on my schedule. Indy I think we actually have the forum on this. I'm, I'm checking real quick excuse me. The forum is on. The forums on the 27th, because we have to do public forum and the council could go ahead and vote that night. And the tentative calendar Andy that you had had the CPA vote on the 28th, if or the finance committees vote on the 28th, if it wasn't voted earlier. Okay, thank you. That is correct. So the forum on CPAs on the 27th. We would then we could have a vote or the committee. Now are because I would proceed the 28th. Kathy. I would be in favor of taking the vote now we have. We've had a good discussion. And we've got a longer discussion next week on a range of things. And I think these orders, the only question I have, I don't have a question on the larger order f f y 24 dash 07 a Sean, but the order that's related to the field doesn't have the word contingency I didn't know whether you need, whether that needs a slight rewording or claws ended at the end. So those were the two orders that you talked about right when one is with the longer list and the other is f y 24 dash 08 a, and I, I would be prepared to move that we recommend the approval of both of these, and I can do them in the more formal way. If we really take the motion tonight. As I said before we got to a vote, we're going to vote today. I wanted to allow public to have public comments since if any public comment was about this I think that it's fair for that to precede the committee discussion. I'm going to pause now from other activity and ask whether there's any public comment that any member of the public would like to offer by indicating by raising your hand, and think that everybody is on it. They can raise their hand through the zoom links so that they can raise their hand through the zoom link. And it does not have to be exclusively about the issue of CPA can be about any matter that may at any point come before the finance committee it's a wide open invitation for public comments we will I will ask that any comments be limited to about three minutes but if any if there is anyone who wants to raise their hand. So, and I also recognize that there's at least one person who's one of the cost sponsors of the citizen petition item, seeing none seeing no request for public comment today. Do you have motions that you wish to offer. Yeah, maybe if blend or and or Sean can pull up f wide. So I read it right. The first one is the f 2407 a. Linda, I'm gonna pull it up. I think I have it. Okay. I'll make a motion and then you can tell me what I've worded it right. I make a motion that the finance committee recommend that the council approve appropriation and transfer order f y 24 dash 07 a as illustrated. Second. Does anybody need to have it on this. See. You need to have it on the screen. When I've got it a few minutes right up there quickly. They got it. So we all know which one we're voting on, which is the one that covers all of the projects except for our river. So is it any further discussion on this please raise your hand. And if not, I'm going to ask for vote. Many members are who are voting members should be saying yes or no and the resident members present indicate whether you support. So, I'll start with Anna. Lynn. Hi. That support. Matt support. Bernie is absent. Kathy. Yes. And I'm a voting yes and Lisa. Yes. So. The vote in that is of voting members five yes. And no one opposed no abstentions and for resident members to members in support and one member absent. Kathy back to you. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. And in order. I make a motion that that. Finance committee recommend. To the count council that they approve appropriation and borrowing authorization order F. F. F Y 24 dash. Oh. Eight. A. And then I just need to know, Sean. That this be contingent on approval of the school project or do we would you just change the order while we're looking at it? Sonia. What do you think? I mean, in the past, we've always said that there's a project description. This is for the project that's been proposed and recommended. So I think we've said it doesn't need that level of specificity, but Sonya. It doesn't. It doesn't need to be contingent because the, the vote from the committee itself has that in it. And if the override vote goes, this project isn't moving forward. So just come back and be rescinded. Okay. So I was asking us a question. So then it, it stands so. Second. As, as presented. Any discussion. No request for discussion. Lynn. Support. I mean, yes, I. Bob. Support. Matt. Support. Thank you. Bernie is again absent. Kathy. Yes. Yes, Alicia. Yes. Donna. Yes. Again, same vote as last time. By voting members. Yes. No. Opposed note. No one absent on that one. And for the rest of the members. Two members in support and one member absent. So. We've concluded that item, which then brings us over to. The school discussion. I'm not going to limit the discussion to. Just what's on the table, but we are. Really. Focusing on the language. This week. That is to. To be used as the ballot language. That we're recommending to the council. And. Then. In our meeting on the 28. We are going to discuss. The debt authorization. And. Then. That will come back. To the committee one last time, I believe on the 21st. After the public forum, the school project. With where we will discuss and recommend. Action on appropriation. The school project and that. And the anticipation is. That on. April 3rd, the council will have this on the agenda. On the elementary school building appropriation and that. So I wanted to make that clear. Because I know that several people have been considering. Matters and if it comes up in discussion. They seem that the two things that I've heard about. Or more focusing on the. The debt and the appropriation. Then they are in the language of today. So. I guess the other question is. Would it be helpful to have the language on the screen. That would be the ballot language that's proposed. And. Sean, I'll turn it to you. If you have it available. If you have it available on the screen. You can use it. You might know where to find it. Most readily. But in the meantime, if there are questions or. Requests for comments. Just raise your hand. Andy, do you want me to go ahead and put up that the exclusion language? Yes. I'm speaking to the language. Okay. Thank you, Sean. As I understand it. We have to use this wording. So I'm not quite sure other than saying we recommend that we use this wording. It's provided to us. As the town attorney said, but also the MSBA is quite specific about the wording. So since, you know, my question to you, Sean, this has been double vetted, right? I'm not sure. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know where to put and, and the. Only it was a related issue. Just that we have a lay person's. Description of this so that people will know what they're voting on, but that doesn't. That doesn't affect the actual wording of this. You need a genius level education to figure out what this actually says, but there would be a description of short. You will be saying the following or by voting no, you won't. So, so Andy, I'm just saying this language is fine with me, because I think we, I'm not sure we can do anything to the language. And I will stop there. Okay. Let me see if there's anybody who raises their hands. Any questions about this point. And what I would propose if the committee is. I'm meanable to this is to go ahead and take a motion. To recommend this language. Or the ballot. Do the. Council and take a vote on this and be done with the language. Part of it today. And then see if I think that Sean, you had some. Had done some work on questions that were raised at the last meeting, which really go into the next round of issues. And then allow for discussion for a little bit of time on those other issues that we talked about last week. So the people who came today wanting to have that discussion, that there's a place to do it that makes sense. Is that okay? If there's no objection then. Kathy, do you want to make the motion or. Sure. I, I. I move that the finance committee recommend. The proposed debt exclusion. Language as displayed in. As displayed. I'll sign this up. Sorry. I'll use second before it. It's as displayed in the fifth chart of Sean's long. Long presentation, but as reviewed. Yeah. Okay. We didn't do seconds on the prayer motions. Seconded both motions. Okay. I was about to second this one, but I don't want to be the only one who seconds today. If anyone else wants it. Second. All right. And I was just going to say, I'll send a separate standalone. Something dated that you can refer to more easily than the. That slide of the presentation. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. That exclusion language. Is there any discussion we have motion that's been made and seconded. I've read it, but would you mind just reading it out loud? Or somebody. I can read it out loud. I've got it on my piece. Shall the city. Known as the town of Amherst be allowed to exempt from the provisions of proposition two and one half. The city of Amherst was required to pay for the bonds issued in order to construct. Originally equipped and furnished an elementary school on the Fort River site. Located at 70 South East street, Amherst, Massachusetts, including the cost of architectural design, project management, demolition of the existing building and other necessary site improvements. And all costs incidental and related to their, to the city of Amherst. So if anyone had any doubts why we need the lay person's version of this, then. That would be just, you know, a description of what you're voting on. Yeah. But that's the official language, Matt. Thank you, Kathy. And the lay person version will bring down other sources of funding and into the. Um, And one of the things of what Sean can speak to this is that. When people are voting on this wording, they're not voting on a specific amount. There is a, another document that they can be looking to, but we don't in the, the debt exclusion language. I'm correct, Sean and Paul, right? That the language doesn't say you are voting on this amount of this amount of money, there is a separate document that people will know what they're voting on. So. Yeah, there will be a lot of outreach and communication around the details of the project. So there's supplementary information when this is being considered that the debt authorization itself is currently scheduled to be voted on before residents vote on this. So when they do go to vote, they'll know whether the debt authorization has been approved. Right, by the council. Yeah, thank you very much. And so I guess my question was just, when you said that layperson's language, do we anticipate putting a number in that section of the material? I realize we're not voting on this right now. So we've started, we've been including the information on the total amount of debt authorized. The reason why we can't put a specific amount, at least in terms of the impact is because we don't know at this point, the interest rate on the debt that we're gonna get, the final construction costs, there's things that theoretically can still change, which is one of the reasons why we don't peg a specific amount to this vote because of the uncertainty there. But we will include information on. So what we've included information on so far is the expectation of using ever source rebates to reduce the overall amount to be borrowed, the 700,000 CPA, and if any other additional funding sources are identified that we can reduce the amount to be borrowed, we'll include that in the information that we share out. Yes. Okay, yeah, that's great. I think that's all you can do. Alisha. Thank you, Andy. I have a couple of things. First, I just wanted to clarify that this is the language that we have to use. And so I know I did say the last time this came up that I was hoping that we could find, you know, some sort of adjustments that could be made to the language to make it a little bit more understandable. And so I'm, again, I just wanna clarify that these are the, this is the maximum amount of changes we could have made to the language and this is like the best we can do. Is that the case? Andy, is it okay if I share another document? Yes. Because the structure of the question is very prescribed. So this is from the Department of Revenue Mass, from Mass that lays out the wording of different types of questions. And a lot of the wording and the questions is actually spelled out in Mass General Law. So the one where, I don't know, can you all see this? Is it big enough? Yes. Okay. So the one we're looking at here is this fourth one for debt exclusion. So again, you can see it's the structure. This is exactly how we've set it up. Shell the city town of, you fill in the blank, be allowed to exempt from the provisions of Prop two and a half, the so-called, the whole so-called comma section built in. The amount required to pay for the bond issued in order to blank. And then we put in the description of the project. And the description of the project is somewhat, it was provided by our attorney to make sure it encompasses all the costs that possibly could be related to the project. And that's what has been reviewed by, Right, that's what MSBA, our bond council, the DOR and our local council have all reviewed and approved. Okay, thank you. And I'm sorry, because I don't, I was viewing the language as you had it up on the screen. I don't have it separately open on my computer, but just to confirm that we literally use that template, like we filled in the blanks, we didn't amend the language at all. We use the template that the MSBA provided, which is based on this template, but I'll send both versions out to the full committee. So you have this informational guide on prop two and a half ballot questions and also the exact language that we're proposing. Okay, that would be helpful. And then I just still feel very uncomfortable with this ballot language, only because it doesn't tell you what's going to happen. And so I know that we're saying that we can add that to the ballot question in terms of like, if you vote yes, this is what it means. If you vote no, this is what it means. So I think it would also be really helpful to have that language, like what exactly are we going to tell them underneath in the description or the explanation that we're going to be using? Because for me right now, my main concern is that there is nothing in this language that will let anybody know that they are agreeing to compensate for the building of the school with an increase in their taxes. Like that is very unclear with this language. And so I'm wondering like, how is that going to be made clear to people? Because right now it's just saying, we're allowing the town to pay for these things, which is great. But I don't think this is clear that the town will then be relying on the tax ferries to increase their taxes to make up for that. So one thing I'll be working on likely with Kathy and others is there's going to be informational guides on different components of the project. I imagine there's going to be one specifically focused on the debt exclusion, the impacts. We're going to try to include the information that you requested last time on resources available to those that may be struggling whether you're a taxpayer or not a taxpayer, you know, if you live in a rental or some other type of facility. So we're going to try to put together one, maybe page front and back that has all that information in one place. The timing of it, I think there's still a lot of, we're still hoping to find additional sources. So we can put one out now based on what we have available based on the PowerPoint that we just put out that has what it looks like with the Eversource rebates and the CPA. And we would amend it if any additional funding sources are identified after that. But that's, and I always were a staffer available to support any counselors when you do your information sharing now about the impacts of this project. Staffer happy to support that in any way we can. Thank you, Sean. Sorry, Andy, if I can just quickly follow up. I think my concern is less about having like specific numbers and like the exact percentage of an increase but more about giving someone a general idea like reasonable expectations as to what this means. So even saying something like this could possibly result in an increase and not even necessarily saying that like this is a percent, like a 3% increase in X, Y and Z. Like I don't think the actual numbers are important as understanding what the possible impact could be because right now this is essentially saying no impact or not warning of any impact. Yeah, sorry. Yeah, Alicia is implicit in your question that if you had your preference you would like to have this printed on the ballot. I'm not saying it's possible but is that what your preference would be if it were possible? Yeah, and I think other counselors and other people have spoken to this like just having the description underneath the question that says what a yes vote means and what a no vote means. I think that could be sufficient. I just would like to see that. Like I would like to see what that would look like and how it would compliment this language that we have here because I am also understanding that we're saying this specific language can't be changed. So I understand that. So I'm just wondering like what else we can do to make sure that voters are understanding what they're voting for. As I previously said, I looked back on the 2016 debt exclusion for the elementary school that was then not approved at town meeting. And it was the same language. And I don't believe though it's anything else on the ballot then about aware that we're allowed that flexibility but I'm gonna call on Paul. Yeah, so this is at least just pointing out something and other counselors have pointed out something that municipal officials have complained about for a long time ever since Prop two and a half because you are restricted on the words you can put on the ballot to the words that were in front of you. You can't add other words to it. The state law is very explicit about that. You can do information sheets but it can't be printed on the actual ballot that people are using to vote. And so I think information sheets and all the details that are being requested are good. And we can double check if that's wrong but I believe that that's pretty rock solid in terms of what you're allowed to put on the ballot. Andy, can I? Yes. So I had looked this up last time because I had the same question, Alicia and we are not allowed to add that language on the ballot but I think that my question or I know that my question is if we can't put it on the ballot itself can the town provide that information on a separate flyer that's at each polling location? So it would be a separate sheet but it would include that as an unbiased not pro or against but just a yes vote means and no vote means and not have that be something that's coming from a committee for or against this project but having it come from the school, from the town. Oof. Separate document, not technically on the ballot but available with every ballot that's in person. And then the question remains about how we would support folks who are voting early or by mail if that's possible. Cause again, the law I read last last finance committee meeting was that we cannot put other language on the ballot in addition. Yeah, I don't think you can put that in the ballot within 150 feet of the ballot box. Basically, Pete Advocates can hand out information the town can put information on its website and can share that with people. People can take the information the town prepares and share that out. But we can't be influencing. There's no such thing as a sort of it. When the state does it the secretary of state drafts up things and they put the authors it's not written by the state it's written by advocates and opponents of the questions. So there is no such thing as a neutral information sheet but we can share information the best we can and then advocates and opponents can use that however they see fit. So I think the challenge for this is just like everybody says people wanna know what's the impact this language doesn't tell me a whole lot. It's saying you can borrow all the money you need to build this school and that seems like an open door. And that's what's concerning to local officials when they go to the voters and say vote yes on this and voters read the language and they go like this seems crazy to me. But municipal officials in every city town have struggled with this since prop two and a half got passed. So the short answer is that there is no legal way for us to include a yes vote means no vote means or translation of the vote in the polling location for voters. So translation of the actual language I believe is available. I'll double check that. I mean translation into plain English sorry not not literal translation. Yeah, you can't put that in the polling location. Okay. Somebody standing outside can hand a piece of paper someone saying here's what a yes vote. Here's what no vote says. From 150 feet away. Yes. Whatever it is. Yeah. I think it's 50 feet, but yeah. Yeah. I don't know whether it's helpful or not but in starting to think about this I have downloaded a few and I just found another a Medfield one of what Sean's talking about these information sheets. So it might be useful to just have a couple it won't be the Amherst one a couple examples because they're very clear and they're done with all like stars around voter coming up and a yes vote means. So I just forward the Medfield one to Sean and Paul but I think seeing an example of this and on what that flyer would look like that you could have someone handing out and it would be in the paper. So the more we can publicize this. But in answer the actual ballot always looks the same. So when Andy said he went back and looked at our old one while you can look at Springfields or Medfields or whatever it's the town, the name of the town changes. That's it. Yeah. From the elementary school the language describing the building and all of the uses that was exactly the same. And I think that's because it came from MSBA. Alicia. Thank you. So I think it would be extremely helpful if we could create some kind of information sheet. I also think and I know Paul said this that it would be really important to have this information widely accessible so available on the town website. But I again think that this is incredibly important that we do this and as soon as possible even if that means we're updating numbers as they change for transparency because this is very not transparent to be honest. And so I would highly encourage and support that. Matt. Yeah. Thanks, Andy. And so this I guess I have a substantive comment and then just a clarifying question. So my comment is just I really appreciated the draft language that Paul's memo had provided to the council which did actually set upper and lower parameters on the burdens of taxpayers based on what percentage of MSBA funding we get and other sources of funding. So that language and that vote that the council takes and then also the actual vote itself what is the actual vote itself? I think that information is gonna be really important to voters as they navigate this because having that in hand really does essentially give voters a range of the burden, the tax burden. And then my question I guess so I'm thoroughly confused now because this lay person's language that I was asking about before that sounds as though that's the information sheet that's not allowed to be a part of the sort of official messaging regarding that which is fine. I just think if the town gets the hard facts out there, as Paul said the two sides can both sort of use that information as they see fit. So that's fine, but I'm totally confused now if I thought there's a lay person's language that Sean was referring to that was gonna be an official part of the process. So maybe just Matt, I'm not sure exactly maybe you can explain more of the confusion. So we will put together sort of the official fact sheet related to the project. It can't go be part of the ballot. It can't be sounds like within the polling location but we can provide that information on our website and then share it out so others can communicate that out broadly and explore what are the ways the town can officially share that out so that everyone knows has all the same information when they're going to the polls. Okay, that's what I needed to hear. I just, I was getting confused with the discussion. Thanks. Okay, anything else otherwise I'm gonna move to about okay, seeing no other hands up I'm gonna go ahead and move to about and I'm gonna keep going alphabetically and moving down to the third name alphabetically in the list, it's Bob Higner. Is there a motion on the floor? Yes, the motion was made in second to recommend the language that as presented by Sean. I'm sorry, yes, I support this. Matt. I support. Bernie again is absent, Kathy. Yes, support. Oh, yes, I'm a yes. I'm a yes. Alicia. Yes. Ahana. Aye. And Lynn. Aye. Okay, so the vote is again, five front of voting members, five yes, no opposed for the president members to support and one member absent. So I think that concludes it, but Sean, did you have anything briefly you wanted to say in response to other issues that were raised last time? Yeah, so I logged all the questions that were asked last time that suddenly would come back to. So I'm working on a memo. I'm happy to go through the questions and answers now briefly and send the memo later or if you'd prefer to wait till our next meeting and have the memo in front of you, whatever the committee would like to do. Let me ask if there's a request or having them just having a presentation now, raise your hands also looking at the clock and knowing what we're trying, but the clock is today. Otherwise, the goal would be to hand it out or to circulate it in advance included in the packet. So that there's an opportunity to read the memo prior to the next meeting. And I already told you what the agenda looks like for the next meeting, Kalisha. You have a request. So if there's any, you wanna have a full summary or do some specific things you wanna ask about? No, sorry. I have a motion that I want to propose after the summary. Okay. Remember that since it wasn't on the agenda, certainly you can present your motion as Kathy has presented her motion that she would like to consider, which is in the packet. So. So, Andy, maybe for my piece, I'll just give a very quick overview of the questions and that I will have responses for next week. And if anyone doesn't hear one of their questions, just let me know so I can make sure that it's captured. Is that okay if I do that in two minutes? Okay. So the questions that we will have responses for you next week, how does this question came from Bernie? How does the debt exclusion of the impacts on a single family household differ whether the debt is structured with level principal debt or level payment debt. So the cascading debt or the debt that stays level the whole time. Will the bonds be callable for refinancing and when, how much will a $1 million reduction in the amount of debt to be repaid from the debt exclusion impact to the average single family household. So if we were to reduce project costs further if reserves were to be used, what would be the impact on the single family household from that? What can we do to help taxpayers that may struggle to afford the additional annual cost? And then additionally, what can we do for residents who may not pay taxes directly? What can we do to support them? What is the estimated cost of repairs needed at Fort River and Wildwood? So if this project was not to move forward, what would be the number we're looking at to bring the two existing schools sort of fully up to code and bring the mechanical systems update all of that? How much operational savings are anticipated from the creation of one new school and shutting down the two older facilities? And then lastly, how do these numbers relate to the plan for the four billion projects? And how would that plan change if we were to use reserves to support this project? Very good. Since you were at the question. Yeah, I thought I had asked a question and maybe I didn't phrase it well, but I wanted to know what, you know, you provided numbers on how much taxes a single family home would pay, but nothing on what the impact to renters would be in terms of, you know, increased rents. And maybe we don't have that information, but if we have that information, it would be helpful. Yeah, so we don't know exactly how landlords will pass it along. We can show you what the impact would be on a higher valued property. For example, we could look at some of the larger properties in town and that have a lot of rentals and show you what the additional tax impact would be on them. And then how that would be allocated among renters would be up to the owner of that property. That would be helpful. Anything like that, I think would be very helpful just so we're not just limiting our discussion of impacts to homeowners. I think it's great, Sean, you're pulling this together and my request is today is what, Tuesday. If you could get it to me, the repairs, I know we've been back and forth. I'm doing a presentation on this weekend on the school bill. And I've been asked a couple of times of costs of, you know, the cost of doing nothing and what's in the thing. So if you could just get me, I've said, I gave a hazy number and I said, I'm waiting for Sean to bless it. Yeah, I think it's going to be the same number that we've sort of seen from the previous reports submitted to the MSBA. But the goal would be to get this, most of this is all ready together. I'll add the additional information that Bob just asked about the impact on larger parcels. And if there's any other questions, I'll add that but we should be able to get it out in the next day or so. Yeah, that'd be great. People just know, in the course of doing the analysis, Denisco did look at just Fort River and bringing Fort River up to code and doing all the repairs that were necessary. So we do have some information. So in any case, I'm just, I've been waiting to see what number I can use. That would be great. Okay, anything else on this? So thank you, Sean. The other thing that I wanted to point out, which will get us back to Alicia is again, that Kathy has been a memo that is in the packet for today's meeting, which is available both on SharePoint and on the website accessible to the public for the finance committee section of the town website. So that memo is outstanding and we'll be a part of the discussion next week because it fits in with the agenda item as defined, which is the, let's see if I can get to the exact language. Discussion about, And Andy, I don't need to speak to mine today. I'm fine waiting to speak. Yeah, discussion about that exclusion and the effect of the borrowing. You see, let me, let's just general terms about funding for the project and the borrowing. Sorry about that. Alicia, if you would like to tell us since Kathy shared motion that she intends to bring, do you want to say anything about your motion? Yeah, thank you, Andy. I intended to make a motion today that the finance committee recommend the town council to request the town manager include $10 million of capital reserves in the funding plan for the elementary school building project. I was under the impression that this would fall under this agenda item and that I did not need to request another agenda item for this to be heard today. And I also had sent my motion to Athena in advance to go over and make sure that it was an acceptable motion. And I have a whole speech plan for today, which because it's vacation week, this is my only day to be at a full finance committee meeting. So I am very slightly frustrated about this right now because I had planned ahead for this. And I'm hoping that I will be able to be there at the next meeting. And although I won't be able to be sitting at a desk with my computer and my speech in front of me to present this motion. I think that there's the one thing that I wanted to caution you about. And I will, you and I should talk later about making sure that we arrange the agenda to make it most certain that you can be able to fully discuss it because I think that there are going to be a lot of questions raised about this and the point about what is the extent of the role the council has and the finance committee has in the issues that are raised in the motion that you just described. So I really want to make sure that we arrange the meeting that can accommodate you to the greatest extent because that's just presenting the motion but also that you can participate in any discussion that follows up. If you have anything further you wanna say right now just to why you're offering the motion certainly you have the floor to do so. Well, I have like a whole document written that I would prefer to read when we're going like when the motion is on the floor. But I worry for myself if I will have the time and availability to be as present as I would like to be while presenting a motion just again because on days where I'm at work I'm literally sitting in my car on this meeting with you guys on my phone and right now I'm sitting at my desk at my house with a computer. And so again, this was like the best timing and I did plan ahead and I did reach out to Athena and she did go over the language and we went over the charter together. So I was doing my due diligence to make sure that this could come forward today. So again, I am just very frustrated at how these meetings are being organized and how we're not being mindful of all committee members and my participation. I don't think that it's a motion that we're either prepared by the agenda or the time take up today. I don't know if Sean or Paul or Lynn wanna say anything additional on that matter. But in addition to the question of the debt exclusion going on the ballot, there's a separate issue of the appropriation for the school project and the appropriation for the school project, the amount that is being proposed and the debt proposal that is being proposed is really where that fits in. And that's gonna be more accurately described on the agenda for the next meeting. Sean. Thanks, Andy. This is totally up to Alicia. My thought is it would be helpful to hear the motion and the justification for it ahead of time. So tonight, with the anticipation that's gonna be discussed next week so that there is action next week, everyone's had time to think about it. I know we don't have a ton of time left, but if we can hear it tonight or if the committee can hear it tonight, that would prepare you for next week's discussion that's more focused on this. That's more focused on the debt authorization.  Yeah, I wanna respect the fact that Alicia is able to be here today. And I'm curious if she's willing to do the speech and kind of present the idea, even if it's not made as a formal motion. And then Alicia, if you wouldn't mind, I know I do better when I'm reading things. And so I'd love to, if you can send the text of your speech as a memo, if that makes sense for the next packet, it would be really helpful. I do feel that Alicia, what you referenced and Kathy, what you put in the packet should be discussed together as they're kind of relating the same thing. And so I don't wanna vote one today and save one for next week, if that makes sense, since they would not work, one wouldn't work if the other one works. So I'm wondering if that might be a happy medium for Alicia to present the concept and idea today while she's able to be here. And then if we do it first thing in the next meeting to discuss both of the proposals to use reserves for different things, but as well as putting a actual written thing in the packet, if that's amenable to everyone. And I also will note, I have a really hard stop right before five, like two minutes before 5.30. So apologies for that. I'm gonna call them in for a second. The specific thing that we do need to discuss next week is a circle to the side of my page and more easy to read, discuss debt authorization and discussing the debt authorization, the question then of reducing the debt authorization by using other funds, which is what really both motions are about and points out really fit into the question of the discussion of debt authorization. And I couldn't respond to you last Friday because I didn't know what the motion was at all. You just said you have a motion. So I did the best I could in responding, which was I realized not a helpful response. Lynn, do you have anything you wanna say or? I would like us to give Alicia the opportunity to introduce her motion. I don't think we should look for a second per se, but ask her to introduce what it is she would like us to look at or recommend and to go ahead tonight because I believe that both hers and Kathy's motion may need a lot further exploration before we can move on and farther in advance. We have that information, the better off we are. And I agree and especially because we had a written memo from Kathy presenting and explaining her motion that's for the committee. Alicia, if you would like to have the opportunity to put it before the committee, please do so. Your call. Thank you. I really appreciate everyone understanding and advocating. It is my preference, however, to have my explanation be at the same time that the motion is on the floor. I would be happy to write up because what I have in my speech is like talking points for me to talk, but I would be happy to formalize it and include it in the packet for next week. I'm just hoping that this could be like at the top of the agenda so that I can, because I'm only gonna probably have time for one agenda item, because they do go very long sometimes. And I also just to speak in my defense very quickly want to point out that in the agenda, it says further discussion about the proposed exclusion and recommendation whether to place it on the townwide ballot and the wording of the question. And so to me, this does fall under what is on the agenda because it is part of the furthering the discussion on the proposed exclusion override, which is where my thought process came. And I did check in with Athena who said I did not need to propose an additional agenda item. I guess the problem is I think that we're just getting confused as there are two different concepts we're talking about the debt exclusion is specifically about the debt exclusion vote that we are recommending from May 2nd. And the debt authorization, which is the wording that was anticipated for the 28th of February is the amount of debt that we're recommending to be authorized in, and because the debt exclusion ballot language doesn't include the amount. And that's why the two were separated as they were. And I think that's what the distinction is, Shawn. Yeah, so I think next week the only agenda item is as far as I'm aware right now is the debt authorization. So I think that makes sense that this could be discussed early. And it goes well with the memo that I will get you all because that will include information, additional information that might also be part of the discussion, the questions that have been asked. So I don't, based on the agenda that I've seen so far and I think it makes sense that we could do it all next week and this could be at the beginning. Yeah, it will be because I didn't know that I found the right question page and all the other item we've taken care of is it said CPA recommendation, if not voted on 221, but we did vote it. Yeah, it's all set. So it is the only issue on the agenda next week. So Alicia, if you're looking then to present the writing however you decide to do it and don't hesitate to call me. Thank you, Andy. I can send you over a copy of my motion just about an hour before this meeting and to Athena to include in the packet but I will write up a memo also and include that before next meeting. Yeah, and I'm sorry that of course I'd open some other things right up until the time of the meeting and I didn't check my email in the last hour and that was just because of other things that were happening. So I'm sorry about that. So let's just go on so we can conclude today because I think that we have a plan and if you're at all concerned about process you know how to get a hold of me, please do. And I think that turning back to the agenda real quickly I just wanted to mention one matter and that is that I do need to do a report for the next council meeting and the report for the next council meeting won't be touching on this particular issue that we're just talking about right now because it hasn't even been discussed yet. I will just mention the date of the election and the language question and why the language is as limited as it is and that's about it. And I will endeavor to get this entire report to you. I also will talk about the fact that we did have a further discussion about the water and sewer regulations and that there was no action taken changed the previous recommendation. The one thing that I wanted to mention to you in recognizing this is something that I didn't anticipate 48 hours in advance but it was cooking along really quickly. I had a approach from a resident who lives on a private street that's not a public way. And she was pointing out that she was gonna be paying a higher rate for water and sewer in two years and will gain absolutely zero benefit from it because if there's ever a problem in the line to her property because she's not in a public way and has an extraordinary distance to cover that she doesn't really gain anything from this so she incurs a great risk and a great expense as if the old, the current rule is in a place and has no benefit from it. In discussing this with sort of the staff, the principally with Amy, Rusecki, it was also obvious that for anybody who's in an apartment complex, that the apartment complex because they also are not covered by this that the owner of the building would be responsible for any repairs without getting any benefit from this change in ownership language that was been looked at by both committees and that therefore the water rates would increase and it depends, but of course, if the tenants pay it directly which happens in some rental situations or if it is a in this applies to larger buildings. So I didn't know if I should add that to the report and I don't feel comfortable making a decision without running it by you but if not, I will make it my own separate report when it comes before the council because I think that it raises some questions about what is the best approach as to how will we handle two years from now I think it sort of strengthens the questions that have been raised by our committee as to whether we would have the full discussion of this issue in two years and having said that, I'll recognize on and stand up. Sure, and I have to leave in about 30 seconds so I apologize, I did not know this was going to be discussed. I respectfully, Andy, I disagree with some of your points and I don't think that they're actually necessarily especially the latter point I think that there's much more to that story with apartment buildings and what would be passed on to tenants or not. And so I don't think that personally, I do not think it should be part of a finance committee report on this matter but I also, especially given that we do not have, we're already 24 minutes over, I believe when we're supposed to end according to the calendar unless it's 530 and that's fine too but I don't think it should be in the finance committee report. I think it's inappropriate given that we have not had time as a committee to discuss it. I think you're welcome as a counselor to raise those questions but yeah, that's my take. And I know that you and I are speaking on Friday about this and I'm looking forward to that as well. Thank you. I've muted myself because we were having somebody barking in the background. I will not. That's why I wanted to raise it just as I said if there was any objection I was not going to include it in the report and treat it as a separate item I will do. So I will endeavor to get the draft to you in advance as usual but I will leave that topic alone and there's no reason for the committee to discuss it now because it's not an action item nor is it appropriate because it's under an anticipated business. It's important not to have any more extensive discussion that is absolutely appropriate. So for that, for those reasons I think that we are done. And the last thing I'll just note to you is that the work that I've been doing on trying to get a consolidated calendar together with Lynn and so that we have a full picture of how the budget process is gonna work. Anybody who has any thoughts about that or suggestions, always welcome to contact me about that or Lynn, whoever you believe is appropriate. So with that said, there's nothing else. Nobody's raising hands about other unanticipated business going once, going twice, we'll return. Thank you all. Have a good night.