Good afternoon, everybody. I'm Tommy O'Brien, coming to you live from TFNN headquarters in St. Petersburg, Florida, 2 p.m. Eastern Time on Wednesday, two hours left to go on the trading day. We've got a relatively calm market out there with most of the major indices currently in the red. Russell 2000 right now will start it off completely flat, trading at 15.19. We've got the NASDAQ leading the way in negative territory off 29 points, trading at 77.92. That's approaching 4 tenths percent in the negative. We've got the S&Ps down about 5 points. At 28.80, we have the Dow off 50 points at 25,998. Both the S&P and the Dow down about 2 tenths percent. As we start things off, we'll take a look at the VIX this morning. There's your VIX 15 handle as this market, pretty calm, very low volatility premium in the market, 15.96 as we speak. Jumping over the indices, we'll jump through the futures markets. We'll start it off with the S&P 500. And as you can see, all things considered, we've had about a 10 point trading range going back all the way to overnight. We reach a high just after the opening bell of 28.89 in the S&Ps, or about 9 points off that level, trading 28.80. NASDAQ 100, the lagger to the group. We make a high right after the opening bell as well of 75.10. We're about 34 points below that level, trading 74.75. Dow 30, just above 26,000. Looking at the June contract, we made a high right after the opening bell of 26,089, so about 90 points off the high. Gold contract with some volatility in both directions. Early, early this morning, about 5 a.m. We're up there at 13.42. You got gold trading at 13.36. Crude oil with some volatility around the EIA number this morning. We were trading at about 52.10 coming into that number. We're now trading at 51.65. And Euro-US Dollar, seeing a bit of a pullback as we get the Euro, trading under 113, trading at 112.94. Temporary oil as you have happening across the market. Big data point this morning with CPI, consumer prices barely rising, pointing to very low inflation, and then pointing to possible rate cuts. So that how the market is responding. And another interesting story should not be a surprise if you've been following Facebook. Facebook falls following report that Zuckerberg emails link him to controversial privacy practices. Pretty remarkable that the market could be surprised that Mark Zuckerberg knows what's going on at all times in his company, but nonetheless, Facebook dropping on that report initially down about 2% at 174.65 as those privacy concerns keep marching on. Stay tuned, folks. We got Tom O'Brien coming up live from 3-Tel 5 as he wraps up this trading day. Stay tuned. Have a great Wednesday.


Welcome back. It's that time for youth and politics. This morning we get to look at youth and leadership. We get things fast. In Kenya the youth in the age bracket of 15 and 35 years from about 35% of the country's population. With these escalating figure annually, they have been absorbed and viewed by the society as recipients and not participants and partners in national matters. There is therefore the urgency to give the youth an enabling environment to have meaningful participation in matters leadership. Today on youth and politics, we'll discuss matters to do with youth and leadership. And to help us discuss the topic in detail, I'm joined by a team of young people in the studio. And of course just to introduce them right next to me is Esther Irongo, who is a student leader at Africa Nazarene, holding the docket of social welfare Muranga County University Association Vice Chairperson. And just to make things right, 2022? Yeah, I will be the member of parliament to hire a constituency. Alright. Okay, so you're still aspiring for that? You're aspiring for that? Yeah, I'm aspiring for that. Alright, so that's our right next to him. We'll get to talk about that later. Right next to him is Robert Nyataige, who is the KCA University President. And also the coordinator of private universities, that is Pusak. Kani Pusana, Robert. Santizana. I don't know what to say, but I'll see what you'll call us there. Wow, see what you'll call us. Alright, so that's our guys. There's someone else who will be coming late to learn, probably just to join us. She's a bit late, but anyway we're still going to move on. So today's topic talks about youth and leadership. And guys, both of you in leadership. Yes. At the university levels, and some of you have seen you with Abbasindas and such kind of people all around. Let me ask, when we talk about youth and leadership, what do you understand with your staff? When we talk about youth and leadership, I believe where the youth are given opportunity to lead. Right. A good starting point. What do you think about youth and leadership? They use the most populated guys in the country, and they are the greatest assets that the country can have. Wow, amazing. That's the best way to begin. Now, with what you've just said, the opportunities and the like, have young people really been given opportunity to engage in governance and national and participate rather in national and decision making processes? According to my own opinion, as youth are not given the opportunity. This is because youth, the youth who are leading us, they are given a chance by connections and by favoritism. Like if you know someone, they are given opportunity to lead, of which you're not qualified. But just because that person knows you and maybe you want to lead the country, you will steal the money together. That's how you will be put there up. But actually, that is not good. All right. We thought I'm from there to ask a question to you as a child. We have young people who are in parliament today. Jago wa iro babu o wino. Do you think they've made any money chance they've been involved in national matters in terms of development? I don't think so. This is because you see most of this parliamentary, these members of parliament who are there, or they are politicians, who look at their backgrounds. We don't come from a very poor background. Maybe our father was that, yes, back those days, that's how you get that opportunity. But not someone who have come from a very poor humble background. All right. You mentioned something, Robert. Yes. About youths being assets. Yes. Do you think they've been absorbed in the country I don't think they have. Like currently the opportunity for the youth to participate in national matters in governance, there's totally no youth that have been involved. And right now as the economy is very bad, the youth have not participated in any political arenas, political institution. No way. All right. So according to you they have not been given the open space? No. In matters national? Yes. Does the government believe in young people? Esther? Not really. This is because if they believe in us, they have given us enough opportunities to be in those positions. Let's narrow down to these opportunities. Like for instance? For example the job opportunities, you will find out that those poor are working in the old. Right. Like we saw another day who was giving these old man the opportunities to hold the position of a youth whereas we have so many youths who are landed who have the skills but they are not given enough opportunities to lead. All right. So according to you they still have that opportunity gap? Yes. What do you think Robert? I also think that the youth have not been given any opportunities. Right now they have very many youths that don't have jobs. We have so many graduates, they still have no jobs. So according to you, we'll be talking anyway later on guys, we'll see there's one revolving question about unemployment but we'll be talking about that later on because it's an issue that is really escalating. Young people lacking creativity because I've seen this being mentioned out about lack of creativity amongst the young people. What do you think Robert? Now very many youths they have a lot of talent but now they don't have that platform too to showcase their talent. So they are lacking the opportunity? Yes, they lack the opportunity to showcase their talent. What do you think should be the best way in terms of showcasing your talent? Maybe the government should come up with the projects, maybe seminars to train youth. Of which some of them are running if we can talk about the KEYPA. I believe that some of you have looked deep into that. All right. One of our guests actually, the one who is a bit late is still here. You can join us please. She is a transformational coach. Karibusana. Many thanks for joining us. She's Angela Katoa. Karibusana. It's nice to have you. So we are talking about matters related to youth and leadership. I hope you'll get along the conversation. So I was asking about the issue of creativity and you guys are saying that creativity is there but opportunities to showcase your creativity is lacking. So what do you think? No one is going to comment on that. Even though I was creative, don't money, I can't do it. I want things like, I'm creative about the comedy part of it, taking pictures, but I need a camera to take those pictures. So in my own opinion, we should be given the loans, maybe we should grant some money but the government to showcase our talents in the creativity. All right. I'd like you to give Angela the mic. Karibusana. Thank you. It's nice to have you. Thank you. Apologies for that. So let's talk about you are transformational court. What's lacking in terms of youth and leadership in the country? Is it creativity, is it lack of opportunity or what is really happening? I think both the youth and the government has a part to play in this because there is a gap in the youth believing in themselves, first of all. They have all this talent, they have gifts, then they know they do but they don't have the they push, they don't have the self push to do these things and that is where now the biggest challenge is. So according to young people are not really aggressive? I wouldn't say they are not aggressive but probably they are not looking at the right places. Do you think we are looking at the right places? How so? I guess I'm looking at the right places. The opportunities which I'm lacking to showcase what I have inside me. Alright, Robert, I don't know what you think but are you still of the same opinion? Yeah, among the same opinion. What's your stand? My stand is the government should at least create venues, avenues for the youth to showcase their talents. They are so creative but they don't have that opportunity. They don't have that capability so the government should come in and support them. Do young people have the ability to perform? I think that's the question we should be asking. Yes, they have. Let's explain right. Where do you think we have the ability or rather what's some of the things that you think for sure we have as young people? Because one thing, I believe I can't be in campus for 4 years then someone tells me instead I don't have the ability to do what I've been trained to do for 4 years but even for 4, almost 8 for 4 how many years are those? Almost 16 years. I just need someone if given that job give me that job then they will be telling me instead I don't have ability when I'm there but they can't just say instead I don't have ability yet I'm not given opportunity to work. So for you one thing that must appears first of all the opportunity then ability will come in. What do you think Adila which comes first? I think what comes first is you know there is the school training and there is the real job training and it's quite different. What you find in the work market is very different from what is in the schools. Our youth and even the education system even for myself when I was in school we never came out prepared for what the out market is because it's totally different and there's a lot that they can do in terms of even accessing loans I had her talk about the government not giving loans We'll be looking in details about unemployment because that seems to be the most issue that is really moving around us but I also consider it primarily on the part of leadership when I was trying to look at some of the people that were really youthful in terms of aggressiveness they were really aggressive while still young I looked at him selling wudavadi who was a cabinet secretary back then actually a minister back then we never had the css he was a minister at the age of 29 who do you think in your own eyes grandad can perform as a cabinet secretary in terms of zero years or other let's say 1829 is there one who do you think Robert can perform? Okay for me I think there is someone who can perform like right now leaders for the campus leaders university leaders they are not recognized so I think that's that's why you find there are no youth in parliaments thank you for raising that concern it was back in the days when we had political movements primarily having young people let's talk about sabah sabah all these were young people movements what happened today are young people really aggressive let's have a start are young people really aggressive nowadays not really most of these are carried away by money they move on this money so if you start like a group and you have no money probably you won't go anywhere because you know these things need also you can't do anything without the funding money then most of the money go there up you won't be heard so when this movement when you look like for example you need someone like a patron someone you look up to you can just say I'm a leader and I'm looking I don't have that mental someone will guide me so if they end up dying and they are just forgotten but they will be swallowed by these big parties who might know if a gender person will give me this amount of money then I will benefit myself from this and this and this so let's put this clear young people are led by money yeah they are led by money how best can we render these because I understand that you are a student leader which everything begins at the university level for most young people how best can we deal with this issue the best thing is just employment everything just rotating employment because if for example if I want to start my own party definitely if I am working I won't be sold by this big fish because I know after all I have my own cash which I can work to get this alright and from that I want to bring in Angela are we lacking mentorship in terms of leadership in the country it is it's highly needed because when we talk about unemployment employment doesn't necessarily have to be you going to work for somebody else you can come up with your own employment employ yourself you come up with something that is going to earn you money it doesn't have to be I have to be employed by somebody but although the government needs the government has come up with some programs where they provide internships for the youth now they get the training after college but now they come out of university and they are hungry for money and they are not even ready to to spend it I see but let's take this do you think you are hungry for money let me tell you something you know you are not a student but you are my student and in terms of internship that's propaganda that's a lie there is no internships I am telling you people are suffering outside because you know like I have graduated I need to go for one year just for internship do you think my parents can be able to sponsor me for that one year for internship without money my mum knows when I am done with campus Esther you are done you just go, hustle then you are telling me Esther you won't even for one year without giving me a single cent I need to eat, I need to dress I need to do face you are not even giving me anything internship is not there it goes to things like Murangakawanti so you are not giving me a single chance to go and work for those offices alright let's bring in Robert this issue is becoming now an employment issue of which it was the last bit of this discussion but I want to ask do you think you are being given open spaces to venture into different fields for them to grow now first before I continue I would like to say that outside here we have very vibrant leaders and now they lack that support let's talk about national or university level leaders, leaders both yeah they lack that support for them too to maybe be in parliament they lack that advice totally there is no support yeah there is no mentorship right now so many leaders would wish to to participate in national politics but now they can't why? let's address that question why won't they venture into it now I think it's things a bit hard for you to join politics some believe you must be good in your pocket then you must be a very well known person yeah so I'm prompted to ask this question to you what's the price that you guys use in terms of electing leaders now there's a bill that was passed by I'm asking about now the university level that bill it proposes that the leaders are chosen through electoral college and like there before where leaders were chosen through ballots which I prefer it was the better one than this of these days because now you find someone is not vibrant but he has the money he has the cash he can influence the students maybe and get the position but now looking at the past you had to go and sell your manifesto yeah you have to have the majority behind you to vote for you but nowadays it's only like you choose 20 representatives to vote for you to become the chairman of the president which to me doesn't make sense at all you can't choose 20 students 20 delegates to represent the students over 10,000 to vote for you Angela what is failing is it the system that we have or is it as we talk before about mentorship what is really failing us it is the system we cannot blame the youth because when they are being nurtured in school it's not supposed to be just the education alone because there are life skills that they need to survive out there and these skills are supposed to be taught from primary school level that is why I think I give credit to the new CBC of which most of us did it for four yes and there is a lot of difference you see a child of maybe 10 years, 15 years already knows what they want to do and they are already nurturing themselves towards what they want to become in future but as we used to be it's a guesswork thing whatever comes I'd go with it let me bring in the issue of and the aspect of Urukengata the president he had a mentor yes that is president Moai former president to Moai and now he is the president now let's talk now about us as no more young people from the ground what is missing is it still the same aspect of mentorship or still system as you've said it's still the system mentorship also comes inside the system these life skills are supposed to be taught as a way of mentorship because now when you compare Urukengata with us we didn't go to the same schools yeah the kind of schools that he went to were quite different from what we what we knew out there we can say he may be probably I'm not sure but probably he didn't even do the 844 and even if he did it was on a different kind of level not the level that he did right, as a transformational coach and spiritual speaker do you think young people have been given an open space I think the current government is trying they have not yet reached there but they are trying to give them a space because they have a voice now although most of them are saying that they they are speaking yes but they are not being heard in fact they are being ignored so I think the government needs to do more in terms of listening to the youth and actualizing what they have put on paper right, let's talk to these young people Master, I think people being ignored and up to what extent yeah cause for example I like I'm a leader from Moranga County someone just in box me telling me it's time looking for this internship I'm looking for a job I'm looking for this so when I go to our leaders you call them they don't pick you text them they just blue take you then you ask them one of my senior they need to see you you know people are crying behind your back they don't understand by them they just go for trips they just go hangout they're forgetting as you're suffering you book appointment then you're like this week next week next week but one now you see now you give up so I guess as you're being ignored and in matters of leadership how best can young people really venture into it because unemployment still remains a menace of which we'll get to look at some of the statistics that have been given but before even look about that in terms of leadership what is failing and what is really working for us I understand you're still in part of leadership Yes in leadership the people are voting all the people are taking part electing their leaders they are then failing because they're giving a hundred bob just for today then they're forgetting for the rest of five years we never see that person again so if we elect people who have wisdom who knows what they are doing I guess we can go for but if you choose according to the amount of money that person has one you forget if someone gives a hundred bob when he or she goes when she or he gets that position we'll have to take like three years to return back the amount of money he has spent so I guess as you then were failing Right before I bring in robots Angela the issue of money let's talk about it in terms because that's still simply corruption in a very broad way still it is how best can young people really deal with this about the money Elections and the money thing I think the youth need to believe in their own and they need to believe in their voice and when a youth comes out to be voted for they need to know that this person can also perform and they don't most of the times they are lied to by these big people who have money and they are given small tips and then they give the vote but at the end of the day that is where now their voice now stops being heard because if she comes out and vies for a seat her community is supposed to support her her community in terms of the youth because if we rely on the elderly to vote for us it's not gonna work so we have to really believe in our own whether we have money or not there's a guy in Meru I can't remember who was voted for and he never had any money he just used to walk the age of 23 yeah walk house to house and he got the votes and even those who are vying they also need to have that energy nothing comes easy they don't say that I want this seat and you just sit down and expect people to vote for you you have to move you have to just do what it takes robot Angela is giving us more of an inspirational talk and I want us to get everything from the ground she mentioned something about grass root and support and all that stuff are young people really receiving grass root support? for me I don't think they are for me I believe leadership is truly leadership now for you to be elected for you to be a leader you must be self propelled you must know what you want what you will do for the people but now you find that the older leaders they are there manipulating there the small leaders they may have the cash who are the small leaders? now leaders in the youth alright thank you for being clear on that you find they have the cash they came from very well of families but now you find others they don't come from well families now they try to manipulate them definitely they can't go nowhere manipulation is still coming in so young people are being manipulated into it alright let's talk about the young people that we have in parliament we have Jagua, Babu and many others that have been elected we have quite a number of them if you can list are they performing? as for me I think not all of them but they are performing like I think Jagua there are some projects he has come up in his constituency and I think he is doing well and Babu so far I don't see any improvement he has done I don't see anything alright so why then should young people be given opportunity if they are not performing because that's the big question that every leader is asking do you think there is something missing in terms of impact? yeah for some leaders there is something that is missing once they get that position they go and then get relaxed isn't it about them? yeah I think it's just because of them they are vibrant and that's it but in terms of performance there is nothing alright that's all do you think? yes you know we can be vibrant it can be hard but you know a leader these types of leaders they have influence or something like that this is the leader who performs so I guess these leaders who talk and then just hard I guess they lack mentorship they just lack that mentorship because I guess for example if I believe I can mobilize people then I need that person who can help me think of which you do? of which I do I need that person to help me know your numbers so now they sit down this is what you are supposed to do for those people and just moving the crowd just need that mentorship to tell you if you get there this is what should be done this is what should not be done when you talk about being on the ground and having relating with the young people what's the one thing that is revolving around them? as personal as young people you don't need a lot of things just need to be hard just be there when I need you when we need you even though you don't give us that amount of money just be there for us just when you cry you just need to be hard there's a difference between being there for you and being given an opportunity to be there and hard which of between the two do you think we should have before? when you listen me you give me the opportunity because that's the moment you'll be able to understand this person can do better this person cannot perform this person cannot do this so I need to be hard first you need to just give me your time then from there you give me the opportunity if I'm worthy to be given that opportunity Angela what do you think? I think it's a call for just them being hard they need to be listened to even opportunities need to come up and I think even the government can come up with something like these private companies should be having spaces for the youth which the government did and it brought in let me just bring it on board there was the KEYP that was brought in by the government still talking about Ajiro digital let's talk about the Kenya private sectors the issue of as they mentioned about internship and the like have they not been given opportunities? there is opportunity but I would say both the stakeholders and the youth are also failing in some way the youth are not aggressive enough to go and look for those opportunities she might not agree with me because they are not aggressive but if you look at the bigger youth because I've dealt with youth for some time and if you look at the bigger number of the youth they are expecting things to come easy but things are not easy whether you're young, whether you're old they have to get out there and get them because nobody is going to create it for you nobody is going to create the space you want to respond to that? the government came up with the KEYP for internships and employment opportunities but as for me I think there is no equal opportunity chances for the public and private like for example public and private universities you find that most students from the public universities get the internships but when you come to private none so here we are talking about I understand also that you are the leader of national coordinator of the private universities why then would I understand that we don't have HR probably we would have asked this better question towards the person how best do you think we can resolve this issue because the issue of private and public institutions should not be a question about internship how best can we resolve this? for me I think the government should come up with maybe more institutions or corporations for the youth for internship programs not just they should be many that which can accommodate very many youth have we really been accommodated as well? personally I don't think so because people are saying that internship opportunities but there isn't not for you to be given that internship there must be someone who have to be maybe fired or someone who have to be in to be unemployed for you to be given that opportunities so like for example these internship things in some organization I'm sure you don't know they ask for money for you to be given that opportunity for internship whereas this thing should be free actually it should be paid 15,000 for one year but this youth are not being paid so you get these internship things is not working you know they said and they just went they should follow is it really happening? I don't like in my county I'm not ashamed to say so even in those offices there is no internship yesterday you have graduated then we go to the office they tell you there is no chance what will you do? what is happening on the ground because you have been interacting with these young people you have engaged with them having talks what do they have to say? I think there is something called self-awareness that is very important and self-awareness is about knowing what is available for you who you are and what is there for you what you can get in touch with what you can access and if you know that because we keep on singing about the government and it's not performing it's not delivering whose responsibility is it? it is the government it's the leaders so if I am a youth and I'm looking for opportunities and they are not coming by I should not just sit down and wait for those opportunities because now that is where self-awareness comes from you know this is not available for me and even if it is I will have to really work maybe in different ways to get it or extremely hard so you have to create your own opportunities this is where now entrepreneurship comes in and we have opportunities for accessing these funds even if it's not much you can start a business with nothing even if you don't access the money it's a question that can make young people stone you right now because when you're talking about young people and being creative I ask that question when we began what is missing because creativity seems to be everyone's topic and I remember one time a Tanzanian MP said that let's not just telling people to be creative because even for them telling them to create job opportunities let's be open some of the job opportunities that have been there have been crushed down by the source called Big Fish Ya, that is true and I don't speak like that because I'm just preaching it is true you can start a business with nothing because us who have been there I've been trying so many things and giving like an example of myself I've done so many things and at the end of the day even now when I'm already growing old now I've restarted life afresh with nothing so they need to learn from those who have ventured and have not made it and they still had to now start from scratch right, alright, alright guys I want us to take a little bit of kink and talk about right now when you look at the political field there's a gap that has been noticed between the old and new generation of leaders I don't know, let me begin with you Angela before even I get to give them an opportunity how best can we bridge this gap between the old and new generation of leaders we need to empower our youths they need to be in the last space where they believe in themselves they can manage to even lead even the older people we need to empower them we need to keep on empowering them it's not just the government it's everybody's responsibility because the youth are tomorrow's leaders and they are the ones who are going to lead us tomorrow if I do not mentor her or any other youth who is around me I think it should be everybody's responsibility who is up there to just mentor who is close to them as you respond to the question of how best we can bridge the gap between the old and new leadership as young people are we tomorrow's future leaders or are we today's leaders let me begin with Robert we are the future leaders how best can we resolve the gap in between the old and new generation now for us to bridge the gap between the old leaders and the new millennium leaders I think first of all we have to acknowledge that we have old leaders and we have new millennium leaders now what is supposed to be done it doesn't mean that the old leaders are more well in leadership than the new leaders now for us to bridge the gap for us to bridge the gap between the old and the new first of all let's acknowledge in parliament we have the old leaders and we have the young generation leaders so first of all we need to understand each other learn from each other alright we need to know where the problem is so as we can solve the problem that's what exactly you are saying alright Asta personally I think we need to speak in one language like one language means if whatever I'm talking the old person should understand he or she and whatever that old person is talking I should also understand alright I love that because of time we have to wind up because I want to give each and everyone of you a minute but actually what to do with the one minute that I give you but looking at the statistics that we have had we have had quite a series of statistics about unemployment and the like you know hearing 39% hearing 11, hearing 9.3 and all these kinds of statistics how best can we resolve unemployment youth unemployment I think everyone has a part to play mostly the government and the youth themselves it's not just the government alone that is supposed to be putting in spaces out there for the youth because there are some people who will never be employed and even now we have big leaders great people who have never been employed and they are doing great things so we need to empower these young people to believe that I can start my own small thing and it can grow into a big thing and they need to believe in humble beginnings and know that you do not have to start big to win you can start small and still win awesome awesome because of time guys we may not manage to respond to that question but I want to give each and every a minute I'll begin with you Robert and both of you students and as young leaders of today I'd like you to address the government what are some of the things that you'd like the government to address for me I would like the government to address the issue about unemployment the issue of corruption and I think those are the first to think the government should look at those are actually one of some of the things that I noted down employment corruption let's go to Aster just a minute for me what I would like the government to look at these camera and address directly to the government I would like one is employment second internship third corruption those are the three things we should do for us alright I'd like you to address the young people in a broad perspective I would wish that the young people believe in who they are believe in their strength and they need to differentiate what they have learned in school and the reality of the market we don't want to crash down education and say that it's not important but we want to say that it is just a face of your life and you need to know that this is a different face now that you're approaching it calls for too much work more than what you did in school and it calls for so much broadness even enlightening yourself education does not stop in the school it continues even much more when you're out there and there are so many forums that you can learn the youth need to just be out there and be open to new learning sessions because there are so many even free sessions that are being offered by mentors and when you see the attendance you get that very few youth are attending infact you find there was this attending so that they go and teach the young ones instead of the young ones being the ones to take the front row and learn so they need to have that initiative to learn alright many thanks for making time to generous for youth and politics well that's it from us over here and it has been such an amazing time of course to have you interacting with us and of course engaging with us but as we wind up I'd like just to give a quote I'd borrow it from a young man or rather a man called Bono this is what he says this is the time for bold measures this is the country and we are the generation if we need change then we must be aggressive take up a position and move forward my name is Karanja Alex let's be nice to have you for youth and politics well Val is coming up next don't go anywhere this is why 254


Non-communicable diseases are the biggest killer of people in the world. These disproportionately affect the poor, and particularly in lower and middle-income countries. So a place like Senegal, about 30% of people who need access to diabetes medicines don't have any access. A WHO says we should get to at least 80% of people have access, if not more. And so you can see that the gap we have to go for is huge. We need to make sure that we have affordable medicines and supplies to go with NCD treatment. We need to work on data and data analysis and understand what's happening and get smarter. We need to work a lot on supply chain because this is a complex supply chain problem globally. We need to be more thoughtful about full-on end-to-end development. So what does that end-user need? What's the system they're working in? What are the tools they want to use? What's affordable? What's accessible? So we need to sort of plug it in into the actual continuum of care. We did this project around no-empty shelves, it was called, with Novodortis, focused on a number of urban communities or low-resource urban wards or slums, and looked at what the access to so diabetes medicines were. And we saw that three or four things. It was there were these separate places people went to get these rather than thinking about them in the context of their normal health care. There was never enough on the shelf. There might be enough insulin, but there wasn't a syringe or the testing strips or all these very expensive pieces. And so without it being looked at holistically, we are not seeing people being able to actually get to where they need to be. And that's true whether you're talking about a low-resource slum, a rural village, or even in a humanitarian crisis where we have people that not only are suffering from diabetes and hypertension, but actually are more likely to because of the conditions those situations create. We are pleased to have recently launched a coalition. We're bringing together people not only from different types of the private sector, but also different social sector players, academia, NGOs, multilaterals, foundations, and as well a number of governments at different levels. We know we have to keep working on prevention, but there are many people that have these diseases and are not getting treated today. And so how do we work on technical assistance? So what is the sort of needs we can identify? How do we improve the supplies? How do we improve the tools? What do we need to do on advocacy? How do we make sure that people see this issue and understand it and we can break down it into its parts? And then of course there's always resource mobilization, which is how do we ensure that we are raising the funding and thinking about innovative ways to support this effort globally. And so we're one of many partners that are really trying to get the world to see how kind of outrageous it is that kids and young people and young adults are dying of things that we all get treated for without thinking about.


I'd like to thank everyone who's joining us today. Welcome to today's CNCF webinar. Small is not always beautiful, moving to enterprise applications to the cloud. I'm Jeffrey Sika, I'm a senior software engineer at Red Hat and a cloud native ambassador. I'll be moderating today's webinar. We would like to welcome our presenters, Paul Jenkins, product manager at Oracle Cloud Infrastructure, cloud native services, and Tony Vertenten, co-founder and CTO of interest. A few housekeeping items before we get started. During the webinar, you are not able to talk as an attendee. There's a QA box at the bottom of your screen. Please feel free to drop your questions in there and we'll get to as many as we can at the end. This is an official webinar of the CNCF and as such, it is subject to the CNCF Code of Conduct. Please do not add anything to the chat or questions that would be in violation of that Code of Conduct. Basically, please be respectful to everyone, all of the participants, presenters and peers. Please also note that the recording and slides will be posted later today to the CNCF webinar page at cncf.io slash webinars. With that, I'll hand it over to Paul and Tony to kick off today's presentation. Thank you, Jeff. Thank you for everyone for joining. We'll get right into things and just introduce myself and as Jeff said, my name is Paul Jenkins. I'm a product manager in Oracle Cloud Infrastructure working on a developer services part of the organization. And that is, I look after kind of customer contact customer outreach for our managed Kubernetes service and API gateway products. I've been in Oracle a little over eight years in Oracle Cloud Infrastructure as a product manager for the last four and a half years. Before that, I spent an awful long time at IBM. And yeah, I've been in the industry probably for longer than most of the audience have been on this planet. In the current state, I'm working from home so I am, I'm hoping that nothing is gonna go wrong. I've switched my landline off so hopefully we'll be good to go. And I'll hand over to Tony to introduce himself. Good morning or afternoon. My name is Tony Verstensen. I'm a co-founder and not CEO but CTO too much credit there for interest. We founded the company 25 years ago. So I think I'm a bit longer in the field than Paul if I'm not mistaken. We've been a Oracle customer and we, well, Paul asked me to talk about our journey from on premise to the clouds to Kubernetes. Glad to do so. Thank you, Tony. Oh, I'll get going. So firstly, we've got a bit of a quiz. I don't expect anybody to answer but I was just wondering how many people would recognize this and knew what it is? Well, it's in fact probably the original CD tooling that I worked with back in the day. Back in the day when I first started programming and this was coding sheet was how we created the program. Code that's got sent off to an agency where the code was transferred into punch cards. Those punch cards were then loaded into this hopper and they were uploaded into a machine and it was almost exactly the same as that one. And then we were able to start compiling and running programs and we were at the height of tech then when we had three of these for a team of 10 programmers. That was pretty cool. And then what was really cool is when we each had one on our own desk and that we were really productive then. So that's kind of where I started and I think it's safe to say that things have moved on a little bit since then. So what's really happened is that the way that the process of development, the way applications are designed, the way they're deployed and what they run on has changed quite a lot from back in certainly the early 80s when I was doing that wonderful coding. And that kind of evolved through the agile processes, the multi-tier deployment, starting to use virtual servers. And instead of everybody having their own data center, we started to see the rise of hosted systems and outsourced systems. Today, we're kind of looking at an evolution of that which is more the DevOps process of design development using microservices and service-driven architectures to deploy the actual application logic. We're starting to see people wanting to use containers and serverless to be their deployment and packaging because it's much more efficient and more transportable and people, organizations are looking to use the cloud and not actually have to worry about owning or even running infrastructure. So while we've come kind of a long way from the top left hand corner in the 80s down to the bottom right hand corner of today, the basic what we're trying to do is still trying to deliver business value to our organizations. The fact that we're using different techniques and technologies doesn't change the whole lot really because we're still trying to do the same thing. And all that's really happened is that instead of punch cards and card readers and coding sheets, then we're using more modern IDEs and source control and CI CD tooling to make it faster and easier for us to deliver the change and the business value of the modern application development process and using the cloud as the environment in which to run. Now, over the years, I've seen lots of organizations and wanting to make this transition and there's always a big desire for this to make a really big change. I think we've all seen the Dilbert cartoon stripper, which the answer to everyone's Kubernetes. People aren't quite that tough, but these are absolute questions that when we've been given, asked to go in and talk to a customer, we say, okay, tell me how I want to go and pick serverless. How do we do DevOps? We get that question so often. What about server microservices? How do we reduce our delivery time? These are all kind of big desires, but it's kind of symptomatic of organizations wanting to make that move into the cloud, which many are kind of still struggling with from the enterprise space. And I think there's some real fundamental issues and questions that need to be asked, which aren't these big questions. There's some practicalities about dealing with the reality of what that actually means, because the realities of an enterprise doesn't have to be particularly large, but moving to the cloud is dealing with some fundamental questions and issues around complexity of the existing system. There's a lot of technical debt in enterprise systems. It's the diversity and the complexity and entire stack of having lots of different hardware that's being used through different programming languages, ways of integrating and accessing between systems. That's not such an easy thing to address and it needs some thinking about how we're going to address that diversity and the complexity of the stack required to move an application from on-premises into the cloud. Pace layering, not all systems need constant change. So what I'm referring to here is there was a few years ago, Gartner came out with this concept of paced layered applications and saying that applications change at different speeds, depending on where they sit in the sort of business chain. So the concept is that at the bottom is you've got systems of record. These are the systems that you just have to have in order to be running a business, to be legal, to be compliant and just to function. Above that, there's a layer of what they call systems of differentiation. And these are systems and processes that you do as an organization that differentiates you from competition. So it may be the way that you handle customer complaints to where you're onboarding customers, those kind of unique value, value adds that you as an organization producing it. The top layer is the systems of innovation. So these are fast-changing sort of digital environments that you're trying new things, it might work, it may not, it doesn't matter if the whole sort of start quick, fell fast or all that kind of speed and agility to much more customer digital experience kind of things. And there's sort of things that I'm talking about when we talk about not all systems need constant change. Not long ago I was speaking to a CTO of an insurance company and he was saying that they've got this sort of digital, platform, digital transformation going on there, creating mobile applications and starting to look at deploying microservices what they need, they still need to make their delivery cycle a lot shorter. So they're like on a four-week cycle, they're really trying to get down to a three-week change cycle. And he was complaining that the real problem is is that I cannot change all my systems quick enough that the policy management system was an application system that was bought in from commercial supplier and they can't change it quick enough to get into their three-week cycle. But when we actually talked a little bit more about whether that system, why would that system need to change so much? And after we've had a talk and he thought about it but he said, well, the reality is that every time we do make a change to that system it takes months to roll out that changes and educate all the users on the new features and functions of that. So, well, actually I don't want it to change. And that kind of bit of an epiphany moment for him and that's when it comes to those sorts of systems what we want to do in order to get the value of moving everything to the cloud is to be able to lift and shift that application environment from an on-premise environment to the cloud. You don't necessarily need to change it to get the value out of moving to the cloud. The other reality is skills. Organisations that have enterprise Java applications and enterprise Java servers have got a certain skill set that is very much focused around the development of those applications, not necessarily much around the operation of those systems. So there's a gap in what the organisation has and can do and what it needs to be able to do if they're making that transition. And I think one of some of the biggest problems of doing that is around organisation culture, not something that is really going to be solvable by moving application to the cloud. But one of the great example of the sorts of systems that need to change with a beyond-gest technology in our engineering centre in the UK, we get customers come in and talk to us about how we do things in terms of development for the cloud and our processors and all that kind of stuff. And we had a public sector, it was a police force that actually came in and wanted to talk about the whole DevOps approach and how we transformed this organisation to do that. And when we talked about skills, they were saying that part of their problem is that they have Java programmers in their organisation that are great Java programmers, but all they want to do is be Java programmers. They don't want to start looking at the operational side and working in different team structures, et cetera. And the other thing that struck them was when I took them just on a quick tour through the office, we happened to get a, there was one of the teams that it was working on, our functions at the time, were having a big huddle around trying to address a problem. There was half a dozen sat around the desk and looking at the screens and discussion and they said, oh, this is entirely different from our organisation. Our developers have all sat down in their cubicles and it's all silent and they're just working on what they do and chuck it over the wall. Those are sorts of things that beyond technology that really we see is probably bigger stumbling blocks to moving to the clay. So when we do speak to customers and see what's going on, there's kind of a journey that seems to be becoming a pattern and a model for this, that people take their existing applications and think, well, now we can start, see if we can run them in containers and Docker being a very popular one in the commercial enterprise space and then start realising that, well, if we've got the more of these things that we have, the more that we need to be able to manage them and then we start looking at Kubernetes as the end point and which is great, but when we talk about the skill sets differentiated, differences that we mentioned just now, then they need help in moving these Java enterprise applications into Kubernetes. So what we have is what we see is that the trends are moving to cloud naturally. Embracing Kubernetes is a preferred deployment platform for enterprise Java applications is something that we see and something that we're helping customers with, something that we are supporting and we're working to try and simplify the deployment of those applications onto Kubernetes. Why is that? Because A, they can migrate their existing applications then we've got an environment which customers can then use as a path to get to micro services to things like Heledon, Istio, et cetera, to be able to do that and start to then have an environment that maybe they can start to migrate their applications. So to that end, what we've done is that we've released a Kubernetes operator for WebLogic that basically helps our customers be able to lift and migrate their enterprise applications to the cloud. Now what that means is that it enables these organizations to make use of their existing skills. So me as an enterprise Java developer don't necessarily have to throw that out the window and start to learn something new from day one. It allows us to focus on creating and managing the applications that we're used to rather than having to worry everything about running and operating a Kubernetes cluster. So that also the operator then understands the application server cluster, it understands about domains, it understands how to scale the cluster and what it also does is it makes use of Kubernetes to automate the life cycle of the operations of that application server. And it also allows people to start to transition into modern tool changes that we looked at, to Jenkins or whatever CRCB tooling we can start to deploy as containers and have that much more automated way of deployment of application changes and updates. So what we've done is for the open sources we've released the WebLogic Kubernetes operator that basically managed the life cycle operations from a Kubernetes point of view that understands starting stopping an application server environment to automate the configuration of that environment and support standard Kubernetes, things like side cards and custom resources or that sort of thing. So it can really understand both the Kubernetes side to things and operate WebLogic. As I say, it's super sourced and fully supported on GitHub. So what I'd like to do now is to hand over to Tony and Tony will just talk us through his, their experience of following this path and some of the challenges and some of the benefits that they found during their journey.  Thank you, Paul. So we are interested and we are an independent software vendor and we have created a Java application for the logistic service providers for those of you who don't know what that is, that's forwarding company shipping agents, warehouse, that kind of stuff. We have a little over 300 customers. The interesting part there is that they range from two users to the largest one who has a little over 450 users. So it's a challenge as far as deployment is concerned. We are also having an embedded social license with Oracle and this is important to know why because that means that we have to actually install all the Oracle projects separately for each customer. So we cannot actually use a real source if you like. We also are using HR Scrum for development and we have a new release every six weeks. It used to be four weeks, but I'll come to that problem later on. We are not the biggest company. We have as a development team, we have 12 application developers and we have another team of four that do mainly integrations. And by integrations, I mean setting up BDI enterprise service based of that kind of team because in logistics, there is a lot of application integration going on between suppliers, official instances and so on. I've tried to, it's maybe a bit small, but I've tried to put out the way with the application is set up on the web logic. And that means that we have actually two domains. One is the application domain that has was always an admin server needed and we have four separate managed servers. Those managed servers are used for what's called Frisk Master. That's mainly for the interactive to the UI parts. We have a Frisk service that has all the services that are provided by the application. And then we have Frisk enterprise service bus that is based on Apache Camel that is used mainly for the integration between the different parts. And of course we also need a managed server for the broker. Other than that, we use Oracle Business Intelligence to provide a reporting and analytics, but also a very important part of it is we use it to generate and create documents as there is still a lot of different documents used in the logistics world. And then all of this is connected to an org enterprise database with has the application data course but also used for the meta data service. And then we have some other open source tools used like open office mail server, stuff like that. That's running on a separate server. So that's the application and a small introduction. And now I'll demonstrate my voice control slides. Next slide, please Paul. Wait. So what are the challenges we run and run into? First of all is we focus as Paul mentioned just earlier more on application development and really less on deployment and operating and all the stuff involved. Now, one of the things we run into frequently is that there is a mix of environments to deploy our application on. It's usually the customer that decides what kind of infrastructure he has. We do give him like the minimum requirements we need but they don't always follow our advice on that. And there can be both on-premise and in the cloud. When we started out, it was mostly on-premise all exclusively on-premise. It's only in the last two, three years that we actually see our customers being interested in moving to the cloud. Before that logistics, everybody wanted its own service, if data, his security. That's locally, that has changed a lot. The other thing we noticed is that the performance is varies extremely on the different environments. Even though we have the same Oracle stack, we have the same application, same database, we still noticed that with some customers, we have very good performance and with other customers, actually very bad performance. Well, we've always discussion and a lot of work and finding out what exactly was the cause of that. More specifically, it was the case with setting up the system itself. The well-known error, please do not use a virus scan on your database for it. Deployment was also a problem in the sense that we did have scripts as much as possible, automated deployment, but because of the variants on those different infrastructures, those could not always be used. As a solution, we set up a standard cloud input that we could offer our customers the standard environment in Oracle Cloud. That already changed a lot in the sense that it was a uniform environment. So the Linux was the same. We had the same CPU, same memory, same disk storage. And that gave us exactly what we wanted, namely a good predictable performance. The other thing is that we were able to actually standardize all the deployments now. So that was already a lift of a big burden on our deployment team, which by the way is only by four people. So we didn't have a big team there. We used one compute instance for small customers. So we have everything running, all those managed servers and the different domains on one compute instance. For the larger customers, we use three compute instance. Next slide, please. Okay, that already gave us an answer to a lot of anger and worries about having a performance issue, but now we faced with something else. And that is, as I said, we have a new release every six weeks, but it took us eight weeks to have all the customers, to have the new release deployed to all the customers. And that is something that we really set out to do is that we really want all our customers to have the same release. Now the solution there was, after having seen some demonstrations was going over to Kubernetes. The obvious advantages there is, one is I could automate my deployment and actually connect that to my CICD pipeline. That means that once the new release is available, we could actually automate the installation at all the different customers. Be it those customers that had agreed to use our cloud environment and some of the customers that also agreed to have Kubernetes on their own brand. But unfortunately, not everybody has made that move yet. The other big benefit I found is the blue and green set scenario which should be deployment. For those of you who don't know what that is, that is it gives me the opportunity to actually already prepare the new release. And once we have the matter of speech press the button to release it, it will actually start and see what pods or Kubernetes pods are eligible to start replacing and then it will fire up the new release in different pods. But that means that there is no longer a downtime required at the customer side, which is a great benefit because part of the problem why it took eight weeks to install every customer was that not all customers well, none of the customers wanted the downtime outside of the office hours. So we were always limited to weekends and nights. So also a bit benefit for my deployment. The other, sorry, one thing I need to mention by blue and green deployment is one of the problems there you have to solve is your database schema because in well, almost every case when we have a new release we also have a different database schema. Fortunately there we could make use of the Oracle feature called addition base three definition that meant that we could practically use the same way of working in the sense that we could already prepare the different schema in the database and by putting in another parameter in our connect we could have the new release actually make use of the new schema. What's also a benefit is a better use of the resources when we offer the cloud environment as I mentioned before the smallest unit we could offer our customer is one compute instance. For those customers who only have two users that is a bit of a overkill. So by using the Kubernetes we were able to share those compute resources and offer our smaller customers a better solution. I think Paul already mentioned it also was the fact that it is scalable. So that means that if we see that some of the managed servers have a bigger workload than expected we can easily scale up the number of managed servers for instance for the three services. And the nice thing about this is that can also be automated. So you can actually go and measure the amount of memory or CPU a certain port is using or the managed server in this case is using. And if you see that it's 100% which sometimes happens when big EDI jobs are running you can actually scale up and add another port for that. As also mentioned is the other big benefit is that it is available as well in the cloud as on premise. So that means that we can further uniform make standardized our way that we deploy our application. Next slide please. So this is a simplified schema of how we set up the application or the deployment in the different clusters. So we have three notes in three different availability domains on Oracle Cloud. This also gives me added benefit. And we agree with Oracle that if we put every customer in a separate namespace that they would see this as a separate installation. So we would not reach our meta software license. And we can kind of modify or adjust that to our customer's needs. So the example above is a medium customer which has two instances of the master in the service but the master broker and the enterprise service bus as well as the one you'll be I sorry is just running in one pot. Then we have the solution for the smaller customers that actually only have one instance of this master and his service. And of course we still have the OBI for the documents. And then the bottom I have an example of what we would do with the bigger customers although there we choose to put those in a separate cluster as not to overload all the rest of the customers. But that means that we can actually use this solution for the smaller customers instead of just one on instance I can put like we haven't tested it yet how far we can go with it seems that we could easily do 10 customers on a three notes solution. The other thing you see is that each customer has its own PDB so that's a private database it's feature of Oracle and that is running on a database cloud service as was advised by Oracle one others but also in literature. It's not always a good thing to put your database in a Docker container who best do that site in a different service. Next slide please. Okay, so going over to Kubernetes is a big help but it's not an easy walk because as Paul mentioned we didn't have any knowledge on Kubernetes and it is a big challenge. There is a lot of stuff available. There is a lot of decisions to make on how to do things you can have your solution set up in a different way. So where do we start? Well, as also mentioned we didn't have any experience with ops we focused really on application development and the other problem is that of course setting up that environment is you also want to monitor and manage it want to be able to act on problems. And if preferably be proactive so acts before a problem occurs. The solution we find there was that making use of existing tools because if there's one thing I learned about the general philosophy of a Kubernetes is that it is one of the directions is make it as simple as possible. So the existing tools we use is as mentioned by Paul is the WebLogic Kubernetes operator which really does a bunch of things that otherwise we should have created services, parts, deployments, jobs, demon sets, all those things we don't need to do. It's the operator that takes care of that. Also scaling and changes is taken care of by the operator. We also use two other open source tools from Oracle and it's called the WebLogic deployment tool. What that does is actually it helps us to create the WebLogic domains not only created but there is also some very nice features like actually discovering how a WebLogic is set up and actually creating your models so you will be able to create new domains based on the system. Also the possibility to update your domain afterwards. The other open source tool we're using is the WebLogic image tool and as the name already says that one is actually creating your Docker images for you based on making use of the WebLogic deployment to itself so what it actually does is it loads all the necessary software from Oracle including any patches you want to apply and then creates a Docker file and executes it and that Docker file is created in a way that to be honest we were never able to do so it's actually following best practices for Docker. The other tools that are very important for us are for the logging, managing the logging is elastic search, FluentD or FluentBit. We're currently looking at using FluentBit instead of FluentD because it's a lower footprint and of course Kibana for the logging and then we have the question of monitoring and showing the help of a system which is for which we use Prometheus and Grafana as the tool to visualize everything. So that's actually used at the moment. We're still learning a lot as we move on but the nice thing is it's most of these things almost work out of the box so that's and there is a lot of documentation available. Next slide please. Okay so this is very brief on what we want to do as next steps, it's just some topics that I wanted to mention is the first one is microservices and there it was the long question on should we go for microservices or not being an enterprise application? It's a big application, has a lot of features and functionalities but it's not easy and certainly in my opinion time consuming to transform the complete application to microservice. However, when we were on our journey we did find out that we don't have to actually transform the complete application to microservice. We can already start by using parts of it to microservices. One of them that we're actually at the moment developing is as I mentioned, we are using a BI publisher to generate documents. Is there using the library which is actually Java libraries for the BI publishing and put those or make those available as a microservice. For that, we're using Elidon as a tool to help us make that transition to microservices and also grow a VM to keep that image as small as possible. By having that experience came a parent that there were already a few other candidates to start transforming to microservices one of them is we have a workflow management system and one of the things that system needs to do quite often and which takes some resources is calculating priorities of tasks. We find that was also a very good case where we saw that, okay, we can take that out of the application and use it as a microservice. Same as generating or creating EDI so XML messages or JSON messages. And that's, I think I came to the end of my story. Thank you very much, Tony. So just to follow on from that and to wrap up. I think it's clear that from Tony's experience that yeah, great, we've got a Kubernetes operator that helps to migrate the third application. But as you saw from Tony, enterprise applications have a lot of complex interdependencies that we need monitoring, they need access control and they want to run these applications in the same kind of environment that you would want to start developing microservices as Tony mentioned. So to that end, what we're doing is to build out the environment that almost the same as what Tony talked about. So we're building some workload management tooling which again is open source called Verizano that makes use of underlying infrastructure management like Rantra and Istio to deploy the underlying Kubernetes environment and we're pre-wiring and joining together the monitoring with tooling for CI 3D and integrated security using these products. And it's an opinionated but very much open source based environment to help the deployment of these enterprise applications as they are onto Kubernetes running on-premise public cloud and of course multi-client. So we're building this up to build this kind of picture which is while the operator in Kubernetes is great to be successful, you have to have a complete environment with which to support those applications. And it also gives as Tony mentioned the environment to be able to lift and shift these traditional enterprise applications to the cloud. That means you don't have to from day one re-architect and it gives the environment with the Heladon and Istio and those other environments to be able to start to develop these new and develop the new services, microservices around that on that environment. So that's just a kind of, it's a bit of roadmap but we're actively working on that at the moment and we're sort of doing initial testing with that. So hopefully that's given you an idea of the sorts of issues when you've got to think about when migrating these applications and also to give you some confidence that there are tools and environments to help and that people like interest are being successful and doing that journey. So with that, I would like to thank everybody for their time. Hope it was interesting as worthwhile and I think if there's any questions, we've got a couple of minutes left for that. Yep, thanks Paul and Tony for a great presentation. We do have some time for some questions and I know there are a couple of queued up that I'll get to. If you have a question that you would like to ask, please drop it into the Q&A tab at the bottom of your screen. We'll get to as many as we have time for. So first question, which type of web logic domain configuration do you run in prod? Domain image in home or domain home on PV? Could you please give the reason for choosing the option? Okay, I guess that's a question that's addressed to me. We've chosen for the domain image in home, so not on the persistent volume and the reason for that is that it's much easier if you want to connect it to your CI CD. So if the moment we got a new Docker image with the web logic domain, it's just easier to manage. Awesome, next question. Can we run legacy or monolithic applications written in Java 8 using the web logic operator on Kubernetes? Not sure whether that's a question for me or for Paul. Java 8. Yep, Java 8. I believe so, but that's something I'd have to double check. For my two cents, I believe you can run Java 8 applications. However, the one thing to keep in mind is anything before I think Java 10. Java doesn't necessarily adhere to C groups and it can consume more memory than you allotted. So. Thanks, Jeff. Yep, next question. What are you using to manage Rancher? I mean, Infra as code to deploy Kubernetes via Rancher and managing Helm charts if using that? Basically, yes, to that. It's early days in that. So we've basically got Rancher managing the infrastructure underneath and the sort of Verizano is the layer on top of that to manage the application environment running on top of that. Awesome. How are you managing storage on bare metal via Kubernetes? It's not the same for Oracle for sure. I'm not sure that I understand the question. Yeah, go ahead, sorry. Yeah, so what I think what we're doing is we're using the file system of Oracle Cloud but that's not for the application and say it's more an easier means to store the lockings for all the different systems and that they will use you better accessible via tools such as Prometheus. And just to add to that, they mentioned that they meant EdgeFS or SETH. Right. Yeah, if there are any other questions, feel free to pop them in the Q&A tab. We do have a couple more minutes so we can take a few questions. Next question is in your microservices, have you considered stateless applications? The things we do use as a microservice are in fact stateless. We're looking at because in the 40 instance for the BI publisher, which we use for the documents, is we both provide the data as an XML and the templates. So we actually don't need any access to the database. So it's my opinion, it's stateless. Yeah, I think just to add to that, I think that's kind of a good recommendation on approaches that microservices being predominantly stateless. I know you don't have to be, but I think that's one of the areas that, these applications that Tony was talking about really lie quite heavily on state and state management. So they're not all necessarily a great thing just to be able to break down and say, well, we're just gonna use a service mesh and completely replace that because that's quite an undertaking. All right, one last question. How are you managing your state full footprint? So I would say the state for the applications is managed by or stored in the database. I think that's correct. Yeah, that's correct. We don't put anything, everything that has state is actually written to the database, including for instance, for the message broker, the person's stores are actually stored also in the database. Awesome. Well, thanks, Paul and Tony for a great presentation and Q&A session. That is all the questions we have time for today. Thanks for joining us. The webinar recording and slides will be online later today. We're looking forward to seeing you at a future CNCF webinar and have a great day. Thank you. Stay safe.