Hello and welcome to Exchange for Media. The second wave of COVID-19 which appears to weigh now was clearly a much harsher one. This adversity taught us to stand with each other and for each other. We all together have we've many stories of strength and resilience. In the weeks to come, we at Exchange for Media in series of interviews with senior industry leaders will make an attempt to understand the impact of this deadly wave on our lives and livelihoods. We will hear the stories of resilience. And to begin the series, I could not have had anyone better than Mr. Shashi Sinha, who's CEO IPG Media Brands. The CEO in Mr. Sinha's case stands for both the Chief Executive and the Chief Empathy Officer. Mr. Sinha, thank you so much for finding time to speak to us. Thank you for the warm words. Thank you very much. Sir, 2020 was bad but then 2021 was even worse. The second wave was more damaging in terms of personal loss and the overall sentiment. How much did it impact the ad industry considering that there was a general sense of despair for over two months? Actually, as you called out and thank you for the long words, but actually the last 45 days to 60 days, we will focus more on our people than the business I've come to respond into your question. Because this is the time, as you correctly said, it's affected people and also everywhere. So in our case also, we have had unfortunate situations where we have lost three employees and we have lost about 20 plus family members. So it's a large thing. So ensuring that people are taken care of, so that's been the focus. But to answer your specific question, Jan 5th March was all right. April, when the pandemic started, because IPL was playing and there's big investment of enterprises on IPL. So April was also all right, but May has been a collapse. So May, though last year May also was very bad, but this time May has just fallen off. If you look moving average from Jan 5th March, April May has just fallen off the cliff and this across categories, combination of what happened in the market, and I think June has started off also hopefully it will improve with the lockdown restrictions. But I think May has really been the biggest. So I heard that there was a specific COVID team that was created in IPG. If you can tell us more about the initiatives that you as an agency took, I'm just to keep the trust and work with the leads alive. So we are lucky that in the media related business, we know all the media houses and the situation was that because work from home people, we have a large backup team which does a lot of work for us as well. So those fellows were all over the country, they were the workmen not people, plus our own teams of about 1100 people. So they were all over people in small town India and this time the pandemic has hit small town India and people are having problems with hospitalization, getting beds, oxes, all of it. So I realized that it's not enough because people are reaching out to HR, every organization has a large HR team and good quality HR teams, but that's not enough. You need senior management intervention. So we created this COVID team which was in every city, senior managers, and across one matter where they were computational offline or whatever. We nominated senior people who could actually reach out to their media partners, media contacts, and help in hospitalization with the resources. And I'm happy to say that, you know, I mean, there was a lot of tragedy, like I said, but if I say people have gone into the family members. But having said that, these teams reached out, they tried to ensure hospitalization, you know, it's come to me, I would get the report, I'd get the report in the morning, I'd get the report in the evening. And where they could not help, we would step in some of our leaders. So I made it sure for all our leaders to be accountable and responsible. That's what happened. IPG also helped, they gave us some money because this is the time when, you know, insurance is not enough, people are not giving bills, everything was so expensive. So IPG also, we resorted to IPG, they created a fund for us, a really fun way to be given without being asked. So I think all in all, it's just one small thing which we did, which hopefully would have shown some support for our people. So coming back to the business, you know, there's been a sense of despair and uncertainty. Did it prompt many brands to suspend pitches, you know, simply or simply extended their contracts with the incumbent agencies? But then there is a challenge to add new business, right? So how did you tackle that? So I think a lot of pitches have been paused. I don't know whether they will reopen or they will go into, as you said, that they will extend contracts. I suspect a lot of what you said will happen there.  So they have turned it on and said to me, our global leader, that he has said to me, he said, I understand the problem is only in the expressiveness, other markets are not as badly affected. So they said, you know, focus is on taking care of people and ensuring people will come out of it. I mean, business is important because, but, you know, it's not critical in the amount of life and death just now. And you know, what if I may add, what's going to happen? So while the cases have come down all over, at one point in time, we had 200 plus people and their families affected, it's come down to about 30, 40. But I worry about mental health issues. So, you know, I worry that all kinds of things are there. So, you know, we have tried to create a fence around people by ensuring all kinds of things we have done. So I think to answer your question, yes, this is a poor situation just now. But I think priorities in life are more important than business. So, you know, just 45 days to 60 days.  But my sense is the priorities are different, it's one of them. I would be too worried about what's happening, you know, pausing on pitches and that will be losing the market. You don't worry me. So, but when I looked at the global results, you have still done fairly well, you know, in last quarter, your revenue increased by 2.8%. And your global CEO said that the company's position to deliver fully organic growth of 5% to 6%. Now, what is India's role in this? And these numbers, I think, were predicted before the second wave. So, you know, how much is it affected now? So, so IPG is a very strong America-centric company. America, as you see, the American economy has actually gone back. And therefore, they're doing an 3% to 5% growth, which are organic growths are very good. So, IPG is really simply well. India has always been a high growth market for IPG. There are a few markets in the world where IPG is number two, almost all the companies. I'm not saying only because you're just talking about IPG, not only media brands, your results, which are talking about IPG. So, between Macan, Lintas, Chibi and us, it's a strong network in the country. It's a number two network, you know. So, so, but interestingly, I mean, not only directly using the media brands here, my boss, but also have a chat with the IPG CEO about 20 days back, middle of May, he spoke to me. I'm sure he spoke to other people, but he spoke to me and it was a 45-minute call and 30 minutes was in details and COVID and what we are doing. So, I think they also come from a mindset that, you know, India is strong for them. This is the time to reach out to India. This is the time India needs help and support, both not only physically, psychologically. So, I think the thing is very premature to talk about numbers and how we will support IPG. But I'm reasonably sure that India will bounce back. The waves will come as vaccination increases. I mean, we have vaccinated all our staff. We have finished vaccination in Bombay, Delhi and in Bangalore, Bombay, the last phase is tomorrow. So, I think hopefully when people get vaccinated, you know, the country opens up in the next few months. It will stabilize India's high-growth market, not only as a market, but also for IPG. So, it will be back on track. But at this point in time, our mind is not on track. So, you also mentioned IPL when you were answering the first question. So, you know, it is one of the big ticket events for most brands and it was called off midway. How much and in what ways did it affect the overall industry business? So, it did because IPL is a very cool start for the industry as well as for us. We are very big. We have lots of plans for IPL. You know, we generally, my team, we believe in the power of IPL in cricket. So, it did hurt us. I mean, May was a double whammy because not only did IPL go off for the right reasons, if not we knew.  But the good news is IPL is coming back in September. It's coming back in festive. So, the timing is right if it happens, by the way, it's planned. So, I think like last year, last quarter was a jumpstart because of IPL. So, I suspect that will happen this time also. It will give us good feeling. A lot of brands, I don't know about the whole world, but I can speak for myself. A lot of our clients have promised support. They say, you know, they will come back. In fact, some are promising non-support because it's festive. So, IPL as you know, sort out before started. So, hopefully I think IPL will have to drive the momentum and we have the numbers in terms of viewership as it happened last time. So, Dubai was closer games, you know, the many reasons why I think IPL will do well. So, all in all, hoping and praying that the cases abate, IPL happens and if IPL happens, then it will be a very good fill up for the festive season. Sir, which sectors do you think suffered the most in the second wave? Actually, you know, almost everything was hit by from say 20th April to now because e-commerce, which last time e-commerce did well for us. We have any e-commerce clients on the big ones. e-commerce was affected because the government closed down e-commerce in the state commerce. Obviously, the physical distribution companies also selected. So, they had got a distribution act better this time, but yet they were affected, you know, because like you said, the intensity of the wave was so much that when people were being seen, you know, so last time they were battling like I remember Amul, the client which I pressed very heavily last year. So, they were battling distribution issues last year and they did a fabulous job of overcoming them. This year, there was so much of negative around with people falling dead and all that. So, I think consumption came down, but I'm sure the CPG categories will bounce back faster. The real goods and all auto and all mixed fuel, one view is personal mobility and all that will happen. But I also worry that consumer sentiment this time is going to be affected badly because see, last time people are not seen at close this time. It's very sad thing to say, but people are seen at close. No one I know will not see casualties in the extended families. I mean, all of us have gone through that. So, that has left us, I think finally, consumption is all about psychology. So, I hope and pray I'm wrong, but I think this time we're slightly more muted and slightly more longer, the effect will be longer. So, we'll be careful. So, I think a lot of high ticket consumption categories will take time to come back.  Who would want to buy an expensive pop and pop at this point in time? We'll be careful. So, this will also impact the festive season. This will also in long run impact the festive season? It will in certain categories. So, you know, I personally feel, I mean, last time everyone talked about revenge purchase and event shopping and all that, I think that this time that will be people will be careful because jobs have gone, you know, the uncertainty, you don't know how long this will last. So, you know, India doesn't have social security. It's a very large organize sector. So, without social security, it will affect people. So, I'd be careful. I wouldn't say I'd be tense, but I'd be careful. I'd be worried, not worried, but I'd be careful. So, besides gaming and edutic, which are some of the new categories that have emerged as prominent advertisers in last one year in the post COVID era? So, if you go and look at IPL as a surrogate for this, you know, you'll find entertainment as a very big entertainment has already taken off the bus. Consumption of entertainment has gone up dramatically in any form. You'll find that. Gaming, definitely. India is in the tip of the iceberg of being a big opportunity in gaming. And we've seen with our own clients, I mean, some of the gaming clients we've worked with were very unhappy when IPL went off. So, it's going to be a distressed situation. Edutic, yes. Edutic is there. It's a long haul game and they were sustained. So, I think as consumption comes back, finally, you can't take it away from our CPGs, you know. Finally, CPGs contribute to almost 30-40%.  So, you see a particular kind of profile of client advertising. But the heart of the advertising business is consumer arts, FNGs.  No one was affected. And rule is where almost 30-40% of FNGs comes. But whenever the revival happens, the Indians are very positive. I think Indians are very positive by nature. So, revival may take time, this time whenever it happens, finally, the backbone of our industry is the FNGs, the CPGs, group companies and stuff like that. Sir, as someone who has spent, you know, more than three decades in this industry, what kind of consumer behavior changes you have seen in last one and a half years? So, I really do. So, it's obviously to say that, you know, it's become a lot more digital consumption, which is people, the barriers around digital revenue, especially business shopping and e-commerce. So, digital consumption, any cases of the rise before, I mean, for every revenue, but I think there was a huge barrier to more people's minds on shopping and commerce and that's gone through. And I think that would be the big revolution which will happen. I also feel, this is what I alluded to earlier, you know, there was a lot of conspicuous consumption. That for the next two years will be moderated. You know, it will not be a good thing to be seen as spending on fancy shops. So, you know, fancy holidays and this and that. So, there will be a certain amount of moderation society will ensure which will happen. And Indians are always being very value conscious. So, I think that's why we'll go away. In fact, there's become more value conscious. They're always even directly or they want a rationalization for value.  That's an evergreen, that never goes away. But I do think the combination of being careful, not doing conspicuous consumption and digital e-commerce is a very deadly intersection point. So, what will allow us from the privacy of the homes, you know, you can make purchases without others looking at you, evaluating choices and not being seen as flashy. All that can happen. So, I think that that's going to be a great surprise. It's not only about digital alone that you're getting on to digital commerce. It's not that alone. This is whether a digital platform is how you position ourselves. If you're mindful, choiceful, if you're, I also alluded to, you know, which I'm seeing for ourselves and I'm sure it happens with the largest variety of stress, mental stress. There's going to be a fair degree of trauma.  So, if you give them some kind of relief, not escapism, escapism is a negative sign, but if you give them some relief in consumer behavior. So, if you make them mindful choices, choices which are empathic, choices where you see some kind of, you know, emotion and most connect. So, any category, I mean, you know, today let's take the case of beverages or cell phones, you know. So, in my limited perception, cell phones, a lot of them are sold on style, you know, and sold on image. That may change. So, you will still sell it as value, of course, always, I don't know the value of first thing, but you know, it's been in touch with your loved ones. So, the whole story changes in that sense, you know, that moment of truth. So, the triggers, so the need will remain, the triggers will change. So, the triggers no longer, you know, I mean, at least sensible companies will look at triggers which are different. It gives you relief, it's no longer a stress for you. It's no longer, I mean, the whole status style thing will go through a bit of a moderation. Sir, can was cancelled last year. This year we have it have its first digital version. So, how actively do you see agencies participating in the upcoming event? Now, again, in the backdrop of, you know, what has happened in India in the last few months, and this requires extra budget. More than the budget is also, this is the larger point which I made of what's happening around us, you know, for consumers to show anything which is, I mean, I know it's online, but it's gone, it's, you know, it's there, France. So, it's a bit, in my scheme of things, it's conspicuous, it is in a manner of speaking, you know, it's a strong point to make. But then there's also some hope, no, because yeah, there's learning, there's learning which happens, you know, and there's a lot of stuff which happens with the focus on the learning part, I mean, the awards are all about celebration and joy, but also it can be construed as because, you know, these awards, they're also not participated for the sake of awards, it's not just awards for the global phenomenon, it's not only in that phenomenon. So, yes, you're right, if you look at it as joy and hope and celebration, but the work is not real, a lot of work is created by saying, you know, so this looks very, in my mind, looks very frequent. I mean, one of the reasons why at club and the other why delayed BoAFest, you could have thought about this doing an online thing, but it will be delayed if we said, listen, this is not the right time because the freedom of awards particularly, a lot of work and I'm saying, no one for saying things directly, and I'm saying a lot of work which comes is great at work. So, one is the physical problem of the work being created, you know, there's a time when people have so many challenges, that's one of the larger issues I mean, you're celebrating work of that kind, at a time when whatever the action that we give when the country's going through hell, I personally, I mean, I don't think I can't, but it's not our mind for me, it's not, you know, I saw a story the other day saying, no Indian shortness is a big deal, how does it matter? Then what's the story? So, now that we are anticipating the third wave also, how are you preparing your agency and your clients? So, like I said, you know, from a personal point of view, I mean, from a health point of view, that's more important. I think everyone understood the power of precautions, so vaccination is the first precaution we are doing. Like I said, you know, we're encouraging our people to vaccinate, you know, you won't be surprised the amount of physicality on vaccination in this country. I mean, it's in over India so much, I don't know what will be happening. In fact, before this meeting, I was just going to call with Macha Head and said, you know, the last round of vaccination is tomorrow. So, he said, give me a report of how many people have brought on and how many have refused and at least I can personally make a piece to that to come out tomorrow, you know. So, I think physical safety is very important as vaccination happens. Even the educated lot, I mean, they, we are surprised.  Maybe they are waiting for, you know, a lot of people I know are waiting for Pfizer and...  So, I was ready for the second round, but I said, no, I'll wait.  So, I think that is the first important thing in the precautions. You don't know when it will happen, not happen. There's also a lot of misinformation so people don't know what the real story is. Beyond the point, you cannot prepare from a business point of view. Business is, you know, you have to take it as it comes.  If June things start, June is just two weeks, but it'll start coming back on June. Then I think we'll know how to handle it.  But like I said, I worry not about the third phase, I worry about a larger sentiment. What the second phase is done? I mean, I am not getting to the controversy of what the real number of deaths is. But definitely this time, all of us know people, close people, friends, family, colleagues who have, you know, been affected. And that will have a lasting impression that that will take some time to go away. So third wave or not, that is something, and you cannot, like I said, I'm very concerned about mental issues, very bothersome. So mental issues, not only of our employees, also consumers and other people in a particular state of mind, they'll be careful. So I think that's the larger thing to play for what the government does and it's not about stimulus packages alone and all that. So if you find a larger play that they will just be ignored.  How did you survive this one and a half years of? I think many people have done it. So I don't think that inspires youngsters. But I think, I don't know if this is going to inspire for me. But I think we're a close bonded team. You see, I think the advantage, and this is the time, it's time like this, we realize that we have a lot of people who have worked with the company long. I think chances are still a peculiar thing because while advertising is young people's business, but a lot of our seniors, I would say, made it to senior management with the company for more than 10 years. Some of us have been more than 30 years in the same company. So the leadership team is very well bonded. I mean, we work with each other. So, we're not second guessing each other. People know what to expect. They know each other's behavior pattern. Our clients know us. Fortunately, our client relationship is also very long. So clients know that, I think people have been very, so I think the fact that we have rallied around each other. I mean, my favorite story, if I may, there's your permission to tell you the story, a band called Arun Sharma. So, you know, there were separate silos, our district company attracted to the separate and initial separate. I told Arun, Arun is in the way, Delhi head for the district, I said, Arun, you are responsible for whatever, after 5 billion, because of pride. And there's a young girl and in fact, we never met because of a separate office, we never met her. I think father-in-law needed oxygen desperately. She was desperate. So he showed up to us and because I told Arun, you are responsible for this. And he felt empowered and he felt happy. He ran around, he talked to some media friends, 20 kilometers away. This is in the middle of May, 10th May also when we were speaking. He got into his car, went to some place and got oxygen cylinders. To me, that is a small story and many people have done it. But it shows that someone is not met, he's not spoken to, not his team, he has no thing. He's going to do it for them. So I think that shows that people have worked. They said, you know, the fact that Arun has been with us for many years, that we should be together. So I think that helped that we are closely bonded. We know each other. We may not be juddy buddies at the same, but we definitely work with each other tightly. So, you know, so that really helped that we could relate to each other. This story completely justifies the intro that I gave that you wrote. No, thank you for the very warm words. I'm very embarrassed. I mean, this is generally what is said about you in the industry.  Thank you so much, Ashish sir. And this was really inspiring and very warm conversation. And I hope people are able to tackle their mental health issues better. And we don't really have to have another interview around the third wave. Next interview should be about, you know, how we have overcome this. So thank you, sir. Thank you very much. Thanks a lot.


Welcome to the first book club session with Antel inside at Antel inside I think a year ago we would like you know having very serious discussions about machine learning and AI and ethics and suddenly you know this year with everything turned around we said well why can't we talk about science fiction because that's actually what Antel inside is about and so I'm really glad that we really started off with Gautam's book The Wall I think Gautam's very special for me personally because we started this year of our project on privacy and engineering by hosting Gautam in January and then of course the pandemic took over and now Gautam's back again with you know with sort of doing a second cameo over here so we're only going to see one side of Gautam today which is a science fiction writer and he claims that that is original self I'm not going to reveal more because there is a better person than me who's going to shepherd the session here today and that's Vijaya I really want to thank Vijaya for taking charge. Vijaya is usually very humble about herself but I'm sure you're going to see more of Vijaya and the other panelists in the next few months as they shepherd this book club and you know have more exciting discussions and sessions for you so Vijaya I'm going to let you introduce yourself please don't be very humble and take over the proceedings from here and hope all of us have fun. Those of you who are watching on YouTube you can post your questions in the comment section we will take them here and then Vijaya can queue them up as we go along the way. Over to you Vijaya. Thank you Zainab, thank you so much. Welcome everyone to the inaugural session of the Inside Science Fiction Book Club a reading and discussion of The Wall by Gautam Bhatia. First to introduce myself I'm Vijay Lakshmi. I have a tiny little book called Strangely Familiar Tales and I write for women's web on issues at the intersection of pop culture and feminism and mostly I'm just a very voracious reader. A few things that I'd like to everyone to keep in mind today before we begin is first to keep your mics on mute so that we can hear the panelists clearly and secondly that you know just keep typing your questions into the chat box as we progress because you will be having a Q&A session later so you know at that point of time I'll ask you to unmute yourself and you can ask your questions. Let me start by introducing our panelists today Krishna Udeshankar, T. G. Shenoy and of course Gautam Bhatia. Krishna Udeshankar is the author of the Aryavarta Chronicle series Three, Immortal, Beast and the Poetry Collection. She co-edited Body Boundaries, The Etiquette Anthology of Women's Writing. Her work has also been published in many print and online anthologies such as Magical Women, 24 Flavors and Lontar Number Six. She was one of the nominees for the Tata Book First Book Award 2012 and the 2016 writer-in-residence at Fort Canning National Park Singapore. All her books to date have been optioned for movies or web series. Krishna holds a PhD in Strategic Management as well as an undergraduate degree in law. Apart from writing fiction she is also the author of two text books, International Business, A Nation Executive and Global Business Today. In addition to her writing she also currently leads Common Ground, a Rohini Nilekani philanthropist, C. A. M. P. Arbitration and Mediation Practice Initiative. All her books to date have been optioned.  T. G. Shenoy is an SFF enthusiast and a columnist and critic. He is the writer of India's longest running weekly SFF column New World's Weekly for Factor Daily and the spec-fix column for Bangalore Mirror. He also curates the SFF track for Bangalore Litfest. He has featured in podcasts such as the Tale Harate, Kannada podcast and events such as Sri Lanka Comic Con to talk about SFF in general and Indian SFF in particular. He hosts to Boldly Go, a fun SFF quiz every Saturday. He is also an advertising and marketing professional and is currently a consulting partner with Celsius 100 Consulting. And finally the star of the day, Gautam Bhatia, the author of The Wall and senior editor at the award-winning Strange Horizons Magazine. He blogs about books and poetry at an enduring romantic. His work is also included in the second volume of the Golanx anthology of South Asian science fiction and fantasy. His other not-so-secret identity is that of a lawyer, an expert in constitutional law who has worked on important contemporary constitutional cases. His writing on constitutional law has appeared on platforms such as Scroll, Outlook India, etc. He has also authored two books, Offend, Shock or Disturb, Free Speech under the Indian Constitution and the Transformative Constitution, A Radical Biography in Nine Acts. He would like you to know that The Wall has nothing whatsoever to do with lawyering. Welcome all of you. And Gautam, would you like to say anything before we begin? No, just I guess just I'm really grateful for the fact that the first book that the Antel Science Fiction Book Club is discussing is The Wall. So I'm extremely honored and grateful. And it just strikes me that just yesterday I was watching a future con science fiction convention online, the South Asia session. And the common lament that all the panelists had was that there exists no infrastructure to sustain science fiction writing in India and South Asia, unlike in Western countries. And I think that magazines, cons, and book clubs are exactly the kind of infrastructure that will allow science fiction to happen and for the reading public to kind of come into being and find itself. So that's that I think this is a wonderful beginning. And I hope that the Antel Inside Science Fiction Book Club has a long life going forward and that hopefully this will be a propitious beginning to beginning to that long life. Thank you so much. Krishna, Shenoy, anything that you guys have to add before we begin? No, no, I mean, this is really a great platform and I hope it takes off when more people come in because one of the common reference that you hear is that, you know, I don't didn't know Indian sci-fi existed, you know, are the books written in the genre and all of those things. So given the fact that they are getting published and the publishers are not doing that, but it then falls upon us as fans and readers, you know, or enthusiasts of the genre to do a bit and, you know, and something like the Antel SF Book Club will go a long way. So in that sense, I would like to thank Antel Hasge and Zainapur for setting this up. What better way to begin with this? All right.  Now, India has always had a very rich tradition of SFF writing and storytelling. So it's not exactly new to us. But in recent times, there has been a lot of interest from domestic readers as well as international readers in Indian SFF. So given that there is this surge, would you say that this is a great time for the world to be coming out? Yes, I would say so. I mean, it's sort of right now, SFF in India is sort of peaking and one hopes that this peak keeps going on and on. But to come back to somebody who said in the comments that Indian SFF has been there for the long time, yes, it has been around for a long time. I mean, even if you accept the one school of thought that even any sort of fantastic literature falls under the sand, but we've had years of that genre. But even in the modern era, for example, there are lots of stories in which Indian SFF has had landmarks. I mean, it's starting from JC Bose's The Runaway Cyclone, which is the first story anywhere in the world to feature the literary use of the butterfly effect. Or even if you take the 1905 story by Begum Rokea, Sultana's Dream, which was probably among the first pieces of feminist SF anywhere in the world. I mean, if you go by the western histories, they'll tell you that it's 15 with Charlotte Gilman Hurlin. But Rokea's Lady Lankin 10 years before that. So we've had a long history of that. And so when I hear that there's no SF in India or there's no sci-fi being written in India, it's mostly a case of I don't know about these books that fundamentally that's where it comes from. But I have seen it changing over the past three or four years. And lots, I mean, once upon a time, there would be like one stray book coming out every year. For example, back when Summit Berserker wrote Simokin prophecies, which is the first Indian fantasy novel in English. There was that one book. Then the next year there was the second book in the trilogy. But in the past two or three years, there's been a sort of explosion. Be it in anthologies or be it in the form of novels, so to speak. For example, we had The Magical Women, which is an all women feminist SF anthology, edited by Sukanya Venkatraguvan. Krishna is one of the authors on that. So that's the cover right there. Go get it. It's a gorgeous book. It is indeed a gorgeous book that spans the whole spectrum of SF by that, I mean, speculative fiction, science fiction, fantasy and horror. And there's a lot of some humorous writing also thrown in. And then a landmark also was of course Golan's, which is one of the oldest SF publishers in the world, deciding to have South Asia focused anthology. And that was, you know, I still remember the book when it came out in that big yellow label and said, Golan's comes to India. So, you know, as much as we would like to think that, hey, there are no readers or there are no SF fans, if somebody like Golan's is taking this region seriously, it means that the profile is rising. Then of course, you know, Beast came out again by Krishna Vazashankar recently, Laila, you know, Priyayag Bars, while people would not consider SF, I would consider SF, you know, that came out, created some waves, you know, sort of bridged the SF literary thing, got made into a Netflix documentary as well. I mean, Netflix series, I said documentary, documentary Slipdor because if you watch it, it sort of feels like a fictionalized documentary of what is happening, doesn't feel like it's speculative enough. But yeah, so that happened. I mean, and there was this anthology called Strange World Strange Times edited by Vinayak Verma, which is, you know, somehow it's getting slotted under children's book on the publisher's website elsewhere. But I would say that it's for children of all ages, and it actually features probably the first Indian SF story of which features Adha. Yeah, it's a story by Zako and Dero, it's set in Bangalore. To come to this year itself, we've had Lavanya Laxminara and analog virtual and other simulations of your future, which was the first that was released in terms of chronology, you know, just just before the pandemic started. A nice, you know, sort of near future dystopian, if you can call it that, Bangalore, which has been rebranded as Apex City. The whole thing is set in Bangalore, and where the bell curve decides everything. So you have the haves and the ham nods and, you know, sort of a world of constant surveillance and all of that. So that came out. Okay, there you go. Krishna is our official cover shower. So that's I'm sitting right next to all my books. So then there's another Bangalorean called Jayaprakash Satyamurthy who writes in a genre or a subgenre that isn't that often explored in India, which is weird fiction. So weird fiction and horror. So his new, he just brought out his new collection called Come Tomorrow and Other Tales of Bangalotera. So an old time Bangaloreans will recognize what Come Tomorrow refers to. It refers to the Naliba Bhuta, you know, which had a lot of people in fear in the, you know, 90s. And there's a long time back. So the title story is about the Come Tomorrow ghost and, you know, the whole Bangalore mythos as he calls it. It is a nice mix of weird fiction and horror. And his other book also came out this year, which is called Strength of Water, which is a small novelette or, I mean, it's slightly bigger than a short story, smaller than a novel, I don't know, call it novelette or novelemma. I don't know, whatever the category for that is. So yeah, so then just recently, there was a bilingual anthology which was released called Avata. It is, you know, the first Italian English anthology of Indian SF, which was published a lot of original stories by Anil Menon and S. B. Divya and all of those, which was published, edited by Francesco Verso and Tarun Sainto, the editor of the Golland's SASF series. Of course, it would be remiss if we didn't mention the biggest SF release of the year, which is Samith Basu's Chosen Spirits. It just sort of climbed up the charts, was a bestseller. Krishna will now show the cover, I'm sure. I have it here somewhere. It's there somewhere. It's there in the pile that you see behind. You know, near future, set ten years, you know, just set ten years into the future, which talks about, and if you go by Chosen Spirits, we are currently living in the years that shall not be named. So, you know, it sort of feels strangely familiar, but not, but it's not dystopian. I mean, Samith Basu called it anti-dystopian in the sense that, however bad it gets in the book, that's perhaps the best case scenario as he sees it. And perhaps, what's a good recognition of SF being recognized?  I mean, for me, science fiction is as valid a genre as literary fiction. And that's been a long standing gross, but Chosen Spirits made it to the long list of the JCB prize, which is, you know, the biggest in terms of the prize money for a book award in India. So that's, you know, sort of a nice high point that's recently happened. So this is as, and what I'm talking about are the books that have just been sort of trad pub in English, right? Beyond this, if you sort of scratch the surface and go beneath it, there's a whole lot of good self-pub books. I mean, Sturgeon's Law applies there also, right? But that 10% of the self-pub books, and I've come across a few, they're quite nice, right? It's all, I mean, suffers from the usual issues of non-editorial oversight and all of that, but they're so good. And also, what I'm not mentioning is the whole wealth of SF being written in regional languages. Bengal, you know, has a huge tradition of SF and they even have probably one of the only active SF-only magazines called Kalpaviswa, which is very active and they do translations and, you know, they have their own stalls and bookstores. Marathi's has this thing. So, given all of this, the, you know, the profile of Indian SF has been lifted and to just close it a bit, because I think people are getting impatient to talk about Gautam and the wall. The people like Shivram Das or Niveditha Sen, Niveem Mandalu, getting nominated for the Hugo's and the Nehbila's have sort of made even the western publishers and readers sort of take note of Indian SF. So, which brings me to the point that you made the wall couldn't have come at a better time. Also, because it's a different kind of SF. I mean, it's not science fiction, it's not clearly fantasy, but sort of dropped somewhere in the middle of what, you know, people would call slipstream, right? And it's sort of different in the sense that it's something like this is not being published in India, you know, with this kind of subject matter and sort of this kind of ideas heavy book. So, yeah, that's my brief bio or brief background, the resurgence of Indian SF. Krishna, do you have anything to add to that? Well, I'm just going to say the wall is a bloody good book and let's start talking about it. All right. Besides, I can't talk Shenoy when it comes to talking about the field. So, Krishna, let's talk to you about the wall. So, the thing is that talking about this genre of writing, I mean, Ursula K. Le Guin, in his note to the left hand of darkness has written about how science fiction is not prescriptive, is not predictive as much as it is descriptive.  So, she says that the truth is a matter of the imagination. Now, the wall like Shenoy said doesn't exactly fit into any one genre of this. It's not exactly science fiction. It's not exactly fantasy, but it fits into the broader umbrella of speculative fiction and it has that thought experiment element to it. So, I'd like to know what you think is the thought experiment that is being done in the wall and what truths you think it is bringing to the fore? Wow, deep question. I think in that sense, you know, speaking to what Shenoy said, both about the resurgence of Indian sci-fi as well as where the wall fits in, it's true what you're saying that, you know, the best speculative fiction is actually a mirror to reality. And in that sense, the wall has so many little things and big things I resonated with and, you know, completely was like, oh my God, this is so pure and now. The whole notion of, you know, I mean, at least this is what I took away from it, you know, as a book is both what the writer intends and what the reader also takes away in that sense. So, to me, it was this whole question of, you know, there were so many levels of it. There was the individual quest for something more, the whole quest for freedom to be juxtaposed against the need for societal balance and to what degree societal balances have to be traded off with societal inequalities. So, you know, one could get into the broader issues like that, one could see reflections of the caste system. And I mean, I don't know, I actually want to ask Gautam whether he intended this, the blue revolution, I love that, man. Is it what I think it is? If you're asking specifically about the blue revolution and the etymology of that. So, actually, it's, that does not have a specific link, link with, I think, anything in our world, a contemporary world, but actually speaks to the difficulties of world building when you have a semi-close system like in the world. Because you have the system, you have this very high wall, nobody's gone beyond it. So, you have to, within that, what are the resources that need to exist for people to be able to survive, have to all be self-contained, right? So, renewable and so on. So, one of the key questions that I was facing was in this kind of a closed system, what might status symbols look like? Because every human society needs those kinds of symbols. And I remember that in history, blue paint was always something that symbolized the power of the patron of that painter, because blue paint was so hard to source, you know, Vermeer and so on, all these painters. And so, that set me thinking and I found that there was a specific self-pollinating flower called the wode plant that was historically a source of blue paint. And self-pollination was important because in this world, because there are no animals, there are no bees, so there can't be pollination in the normal course of things. So, you had to have something that was self-pollinating. Wode was self-pollinating. Wode was the source of blue color.  And from there, the blue revolution that tried to equalize all of that. So, it was basically the imperatives of rigorous world-building that were woven into the actual story that together made, you know, the blue revolution as a concept in that story. But it was mostly a product of just having to really think about world-building, which I think is a central feature of, you know, science fiction, tech-fiction, wherever you go. You know, I think it actually goes to the depth or the fundamental truths of your world-building that, you know, you come at it from one day and it still finds so much resonance in something else that you may not have intended altogether. And I think that actually speaks to the strength of it, the fundamental truths. Because the moment I was like blue and blue revolution, I was like, jibbying. Yeah, so it was like... Two days ago, two days ago in a social distance, the next someone said, isn't like, isn't the blue revolution jibbying? And I said, well, now that you say it, I mean, I'm not going to deny it. But no, my thought process was something far more mundane and rooted in like the necessity of putting a coherent world together. So, yeah. But yeah, like I said, I think that just speaks to the fundamental strengths of the world that you've created. Yeah. That it resonates with so many other things as well. Yeah, unintentional, but I'm glad that it's happening. I mean, the author may be speaking to us, but the author is dead too. That's a good classic example of that happening here. Yeah, it's like, let's forget Gautam wrote the book. Now we're just going to discuss the book. No, we're not. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I mean, I thought so too that there are so many things Krishna, like you say that resonate into what is already happening in our world.  And that does show up a lot actually. I thought I'm sort of that social law.  Like, I was like, this, this is just really radical. And it's awesome. Yeah. Okay. Moving on. Now that Gautam is back. Gautam, my question to you. Now, there has been a lot of focus in recent years about, you know, the issues of representation and inclusion in, you know, popular culture, especially in books as well. And there is a lot of push, especially for own voices narratives. Now, given that context, did you have any doubts at all about writing a main character who was a queer woman? Yeah, that's a very, very good question. And I divide that I think into two parts. The first is the choice is the choice, you know, to do that. And the second is the actual writing of it. I think that the issues that kind of arise are different in both.  I think that Rick Riordan, basically, he put this really well. And he, what he said was that, look, the world's a diverse place, right? So far, what's happened is that the writing has acted as if it's not, right? And this is why the protagonists of, you know, classic canon, science fiction canon, all these years, subject to, of course, there's always been a pushback. But what is now, what has come down to this is a dominant canon, right, has actually pretended as if the world was much narrower than it is, which is why you have, you know, cisgender, predominantly white men with white names, always taking the protagonist's roles, you know, entrenching of gender, binary, all of that, right? And what Rick Riordan says is, that's a much poorer view of the world. Because that is actually what should be taken as being, you know, uncharacteristic, because that is not what the actual world looks like. And if you actually examine what the real world looks like, then a narrative that is closer to the fullness of its diversity is actually being truer to the real world than the canon, which acts as if, you know, half of, or so much of it doesn't even exist. So I think that in that sense, it's just a question, it's not even trying to be consciously representative or trying to achieve a goal of representation, but just to acknowledge that this is how diverse the world is in your novel should reflect that diversity. So that's on the issue of the choice of, you know, of making the, not making the, part of it was given by the narrative concerns, but the protagonist being a queer woman. The second issue, and I think here is a lot of concerns come up, is the writing of it, because the fact is that the way our world has shaped up, there are axes of privilege. Those axes of privilege have shaped experiences in very specific ways. And so even though we may want to live in a world in which gender is not salient, that's not the world we live in. And therefore, it follows that as a cisgender heterosexual man, there are experiences along those axes that I don't have access to. And therefore, and the kind of solution partial unsatisfactory, but it is what it is devised and I don't know this goes beyond science section, but it's very big in science section is the idea of sensitivity reading, which is that when you have, you know, when you have narratives that involve characters whose lives are shaped on axes of privilege that you do not share, then you ensure that what you're writing is read by individuals who do share those the axes. And therefore, to the extent that you are engaging in say, objectification, appropriation, or just being pure tone deaf, you are told that in no uncertain terms, and then you are guided about what is going wrong. So that's what that's what that's the process the world went through, in trying to ensure that that in the writing of those characters, there was the extent it is possible to do so, to avoid it coming across or being appropriative, you know, or just plain inaccurate or wrong to the extent that it has succeeded or failed, of course, is something that that that readers will tell me. But but that's that yeah, that is the two part answer to this question. Okay, okay, I actually would like to comment on the success of it. You know, because I mean, I can't comment on the representation of queerness, because I don't have the lived experience to judge that. But as a woman, I found, you know, a lot of these little little things that are very relatable. And, you know, there's one particular incident that really quite struck me from the book where and I'll keep this vague to not make it a spoiler, which is that there is one woman who's going off on an adventure, and then another woman hands her a packet, you know, consisting of food, water, and most importantly, sanitary napkins. And she says that, you know, you need to have this with you, because you don't know where you're going and what's going to happen. And so, you know, and that struck me because there's such a conspiracy of silence in our culture about talking about menstruation, so that when I saw it, I myself did a double take, like, you know, am I reading what I'm reading? And then it was a really nice moment. And it's also the kind of thing that, you know, women do for each other on such a regular basis is nice moments of sisterhood. And it was very relatable. So I really enjoyed that. That specific specific, those specific three lines went through four drafts before before it was finalized. And it was read by multiple people to kind of just those three lines specifically. So yeah, that's it. I was I was terrified about getting getting that wrong. And and even now I still am. So, so like you said, like, the benefit here is of having people who will tell you very bluntly you're getting it wrong. There was one scene that I in the comments some one of my readers, you know, said that this scene reads like a straight man is writing it. So it really makes you feel like a small and you read that comment. But then you can go back to drawing board and redo it. So and in the end, it's better for it. So, so I think it's a great great thing that science fiction is kind of like, you know, this idea of sensitivity reads and making sure that that it's blunt and clear the feedback to you. Absolutely. Absolutely. And yeah, I mean, I think those sensitivity reads worked here quite a bit. So I will tell I will tell I can't speak for all women, but definitely work for me. Yeah. No, but it's also credit to the larger story.  So credit to you there.  And my point was that look, the gender roles and so on are products of specific material conditions. And so one thing that the book is trying to explore is that if the if those material conditions are not present. So in this case, there's no question of like people traveling long distances, you know, or like physical strength being like, you know, just a determining factor in your in what you can, you know, do and host or other such conditions, then you these kinds of of roles would never arise. And so gender would not be salient in that sense that it won't exist in the same way.  So therefore, you have to kind of treat this fine balance of, of, okay, yes, given the state of the world you're creating, gender will occupy a different kind of a space.  And that threading of line was was one of the big challenges, you know, that that I faced and continue to face of that work in the sequel. I mean, that's to me, that bit also because he said material requirement, you know, the conditions that make, you know, keep the balance and so may given that they can't go be on the wall and I think can come in beyond the wall and think of population and why it is, you know, then it's called a pure union. Yeah. Right. That was a great thought experiment in terms of world building to, you know, what, okay, how much of this is material requirement, what happens, you know, when these material restrictions don't arise. So, you know, it's a good thought experiment. So in that sense, you know, part two couldn't come sooner. Seriously, seriously, like the moment I close the book, I was like, I need the sequel now, like right now. Any idea got the many predictions on when that's going to be out? Oh, yeah, no, no. It's so I'm the draft is done. I mean, I'm in edits right now. Wow. It'll take about two and a half, three months more to finish, finish and hand it over to editor. And it'll be out middle of next year, like this one. So, normal sequence by one year and then the year after. So, but the draft is done. I know how the story ends. And I'm in the presence and process of editing it right now. So, yeah. What does one have to do for sneak peek at draft? Just to figure out the story, how it goes?  We can discuss that offline. Yeah. At this point, I think we should also tell all the people who are participating that don't, it may be a nice thing we're impatient, but don't wait for the second book to come out to pick up this one. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Anyway, I want to read this book multiple times. So by the time, you know, you finish doing that and you've like digested it and caught all the you know, windows and all the lovely detailing in it. Yeah, then it'll be just right time for you to get to book two. So no, no, no, start now if you want to be fully there. Because there's so much to think about. And given the fact that it's so I guess heavy and you know, the way it uses the sort of socratic method to arrive at, you know, so many things, you know, it's like, you know, a bit like a Christopher Nolan film, it only makes sense the second time you watch. There are many Easter eggs scattered all over the book. Exactly.   In fact, the person is changed and the river is different. It's a bit like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So it is, it is quite a deep book. Actually, I think now is a great time to get to the readings. So, and okay, usually it is the author who reads from their own work. But I've learned from experience and from a trick from my friends that it's very nice for the author to listen to their work being read out. So what we're going to do is that Krishna and Chenoy are going to pick up some excerpts from the wall and read that out. And also tell us why that particular expert, like why did that excerpt, why that resonated with them so much. Krishna, can you begin with you? Yeah, so I'm going to be reading from, well, not about middle one third of the book. And let me read this first and then I'll talk about it. Because I actually had a tough time choosing. I had three narrowed down and then I decided this has to be the one. So the chapter is called A Voice in the Dark Two. And what of the dreamers themselves?  What brought them to the fireside and bound them there? Smara, of course, in part. But Smara can't be the entire explanation. There was something else. And I think I know what it was for each of them. But it wouldn't be appropriate to dwell on Garuda and Dharah, did it? The one inspired, the other brooded. But history seems to have plotted them from its pages. Mithila then, the younger sister, the one who remained behind with Garuda gone, the one who always longed to be like Garuda, but could never quite manage it. The one who never stopped blaming herself for what happened. You know, I remember playing a game with Mithila once. We were imitating a style of conversation we found in the pages of the Philosopher Temur to get a truth. One of the conversationalists played the role of a questioner, and the other answered. The questions had to be asked as swiftly as possible, and the answers had to be instinctive, unplanned. To get a long story short, I was the questioner, and because it was Mithila, naturally the pain was the war. I put to her all the reasons that one could have for wanting to breach the wall. Was it for glory? No, she said. Did she dislike the people of Sumer? No. Did she want gain, resources, power and control? No, no, no. Why then, I asked finally, did she want to breach the wall? In three words or less, Mithila, I said, because it exists. Because it exists. That was all. That was Mithila. She couldn't give you a coherent reason for why she was doing what she was doing. Why, despite what happened in the pitch, she fought and succeeded in keeping the group together, carrying on, carrying on after Dara, carrying on in the teeth of the short ends, enmity, the elders' hostility and the selects indifference. You would have stubborn reasons to account for such intransigence, such suicidal stubbornness, wouldn't you? No, not for Mithila. As long as the wall existed, she was driven by this discontent she couldn't identify, by her restlessness that she couldn't name, by the fire that burned within and burned her up, but a fire she could not ignite in others. She didn't have the words or the song, but she had it all inside her. And I chose this because, you know, it's, it's, this is one of those most of the scenes had Mithila in them all the time. And this was this one scene where it's almost like looking outside in at her and it's, it's a sudden different less level of resonance it gives with this character as well as why she's doing, because I went through that. And that's what the one thing I really liked about this book was the character arcs. There are times when I've actually been pissed with her. They're like, what are you doing woman?  This is not done. And her sister says that to her a lot in the book and I'm bad. They're like, seriously, are you mad?  Can't you see what's going on?  But to me that speaks to how invested I was in her and in the other characters and in the story. So this particular passage, it was almost like it was almost making sense of Mithila to me.  After that, it's like completely, I mean, till then I was really, really interested in her. But by then I was like totally invested in her. And I love that. It's actually, I stopped halfway. It actually goes on to describe two more characters in the core team, so to say. And I think those differences also brought out very beautifully each of their nuances and how they come. But just keeping an eye on the time, I'm going to stop here and make it a short piece if that's okay. I agree with you, Krishna. I mean, I loved that particular passage. Actually, I loved all of those voice in the dark. Because, you know, they turn the camera around and show us Mithila from somebody else's point of view. And those are just amazing.  And you can be grateful for social distancing so that you're not actually getting punched. Or maybe that says, you know, I have the reader exactly where I want them. Gautam, as a reader, can I just say I almost hate you?   Yeah, I mean, no, I mean, I guess, I guess that's what I also love to hear actually. And but no, I think that it's really interesting you brought this up because one of the things that I wanted to really ensure in the story was that Mithila's opponents should have arguments that are at least as good as hers. And so one should never really be quite sure whose side one is on in that sense. I mean, of course, there is a protagonist and in that sense, like her story is the story. But I think that one thing that the old canon did a little too easily was give us answers about who is in the right and who is in the wrong. And I just felt that it was important to say that actual life is much messier. And so she has her reasons to want to go beyond the world. But there are reasons not to and it's not that her opponents are caricatures or villains or cartoons, you know, I mean, they have convictions.  Like that's a good response because part of it is that, you know, this is not a choice that is meant to be clear cut at any point. And how opponents are not all bad people, you know, it's not like you set out hating them. You're actually, I kind of like some of them. And I kind of found them really classy and so even I'm like, you know what, maybe you just might be right. I mean, why is this girl so insistent on doing this? So that that conflict is something I think that's come across very clearly. So yeah, well done on that. That's beautiful. Yeah, I'm glad I'm glad of that, that work. Yeah, thanks. You did, most certainly. Shenoy, would you like to do your reading now? Yeah, I can just say one second for that. I see the question and I'm so glad because someone finally spotted that there is a conversation in the book that matches tears in the rain from Blade Runner. Is that an easter egg? Yes, yes. And that's the first person who has like, I think said they're spotted a Blade Runner reference and that that was one of my things closest to my heart. So I'm so, so I'm like, I'm really happy that someone has spotted the Blade Runner reference. Yeah, I spotted Tolkien reference. There are many, there are many.  I know, it's like what you're saying. And also, I think that I don't know if we've had something like this in India before where, you know, fans are discussing easter eggs and fan theories and stuff like that. I don't know if you've had a book like that before, but I think this is awesome because I just love it. And I mean, the depth of the world building and the detailing in the sort of writing, especially when he spoke of the Blue Revolution and the board and stuff like that, it's a nice insight into how one author does world building, you know, it's like the half the things don't make it to the page. Yeah. And am I over reading or overseeing the possibility of a Nassimov reference in there too? There are Nassimov references. In fact, the voice in the dark? The voice in the dark is not a Nassimov reference. So I got the idea from the voice in the dark from my name is Red. So where every chapter was like a different perspective and kind of was looking out onto the story. So one chapter would be I am your uncle, second chapter would be like I am so and so that voice in the dark series was basically inspired by my name is Red. There are some references, but they will become clearer in book two. So I won't just hold off on that for now. So yeah. And there are leguine references also. Well, leguine is. There are so many, we should take them all one by one maybe. Yeah, we'll have a competition who spotted maximum director eggs and references. And the reader will get to get advance copy of part two. No, she's not. Right. So my reading know I just a bit of a preamble before that. So there are two kinds of authors, right? One is the Tolkien, this thing was, you know, when you know who went to death saying, no, Lord of the Rings is not an allegory or a metaphor for, you know, World War One, it's not an allegory, it's not a metaphor, it just is.  Right. So Arslan is the metaphor for this, you know, for that. So I don't know which of these Gotham falls into, but to me, the ball sort of, there's a metaphor for sort of, you know, gradual losing of things, you know, the, you know, one by one, you lose a few things, you know, and you're only left with sort of memories, you know, of them and the sort of living with the loss becomes the new normal. Right. I mean, if you take the wall as, you know, as the box that you've been put into and it's shrinking further and further. So in that sense, the concept of Smara to me in the book, I mean, these people are living in their Mandala hierarchies and, you know, as much as they would like to think that it's all hunky-dory, you know, things are bubbling to the surface, right? People are wanting to go out and how the thing of this Smara, the concept of Smara, you know, drives not just Mithila, but appeals to a lot of people. And to those who haven't read the book, this is for you. So one is by, this extract is an epigraph from before chapter one of part one, and it's about this concept called Smara. The passage of time drove us to accept the wall among the natural order of things. After all, we had no choice. And yet there were moments. As children, we had dreams, dreams in which we saw things we could not name or understand. We knew only, we only knew they existed, existed beyond the wall. As we grew, these dreams and their memories began to fade. The vanishing marked a passage into adulthood, or so we were told. But they never disappeared entirely. Something was left behind, a longing that remained with us every waking moment. Some days it was too much. Then we went to the wall, looked up at the sky and beat our fists against that smooth black thing. We wept. Smara, they called it, the yearning. The yearning for a world without the wall. Now this is an extract by Taref, who's one of the people mentioned and it's from his book called Unchained History. So Smara, this sense is yearning. But then we come to the other side of the divide, which is the sort of the antagonist, Shurtans, who say, you know, this is the one true book and the book is the black book. And this is an extract from the black book. And this also talks about Smara. For Malan's transgression, the wall of Sumer came to be. And we who had betrayed the builders trust were condemned to prayah, the penance, on this side of the wall. But it was not enough for the wall to exist, because we humans are forgetful. And so the builders gave us Smara, an ache that we carry within us from birth to death, an ache that recalls all that we had and all that we lost with the transgression, capital T. When the circle of time is complete, when the penance is over, penance is over, and when the wall crumbles to dust, that day Smara too will vanish like the moon at wall rise, until then it is a burden to bear. So the same concept of Smara is in one sense yearning, in on the other, it's a burden. Mithila gives it our own meaning, which I will not say for, you know, spoiling the book. But I loved how the same thing, you know, means so many different things to so many different people and how the same concept can be a lot of, you know, if you can see weaponized to oppress or be a liberating force depending on which side of the fence and how you interpret it. You know, so that's why I chose it. So, you know, if Gotham can shed more light about Smara, I mean, it's sort of one of those untranslatable words, perhaps like the Portuguese Soda there, you know, it's like nostalgia, it's yearning, it's a lot many things, you know, and you've got to feel it. Was that the intention? I mean, given that it's one of the fundamental concepts and driving forces of the protagonist? Yeah, I mean, that's exactly right. And so language has been something that has fascinated me for years and years and in sense of the relationship between language and the world, how language constructs the world, you know, and how the world acts upon language, all of those questions. So of course, and so when I was in world building, one of the fundamental things was that, okay, first of all, when you have this wall and you've never been beyond that, your language will be cramped and, you know, there are things you wouldn't have words for, because there are things that you've never seen. And so your language itself would be like much spare, much more austere, you know, and you know, constricted, that's one thing. The second is that you would have certain kinds of feelings that specifically have drawn from the fact that you're surrounded by a wall and have never been beyond that. And you would need to have different words to describe them. And so Smara comes in as this, you know, in the beginning as this feeling of longing that you have when you spend all your lives surrounded by the wall, you know, there's a specific unique feeling that gives you that nobody else would have if they weren't in that condition. So that was where the idea of it came from. And of course, the second thing was therefore that there will be a constant battle over words like this, when you have these words that are the organizing principles of your existence, then there's a constant battle over what they mean and are they, you know, are they good, are they bad, is Smara a good thing, is the bad thing, is something that you are meant to overcome, or something that, you know, you're meant to live in because you're paying a penance for something, you know, in, again, in the book, there are theories that people are paying a penance for the crimes of their ancestors, which is why they're within this wall and Smara is kind of a reminder of those crimes. Right. So, so, so people who want to keep everyone within the wall would try to give a meaning to Smara that would justify it, or just that that that outcome, because this is a feeling everybody has. The question is, what do you do with that? And the language you use for it and the meaning you give to it would depend on what you do with that. And so there is so part of the one of the main things with the book is a struggle over language, and the struggle to define what these concepts mean, and thereby to justify the wall, continuing to exist, sort of justify attempts to go beyond it, which finally, you know, play out in the question of are you allowed to do this, are you not allowed to do this, and so on. So, I think at the heart of it, you know, the right loss is a fundamental, you know, running theme that combined with this battle over language and how it shapes our perceptions of the world was central to this conceptualizing of the idea of Smara. I mean, what I also like, how language sort of plays a role in the war.  Yeah. No, I mean, it is most fundamental thing. It's like, it says so, you know, right here, like, imagine a horizon. I can't.   So that to me was also fascinating, you know, in terms of the world building of the wall. Yeah, I said, what if it's good to work it up, because that was one of my earliest fascination, and I realize now that that that that theory is probably wrong. But there is a fantastic book called the language game. Not a language game, sorry, but through the language glass by Guy Duescher, and he begins with this, this famous example of the Greeks, who had, who had a Homer's earlier, had a phrase called the wine dark sea. And he says that, look, whatever else the sea looks like, the color of wine is not what it looks like. So how is Homer saying the wine, dark sea, like what are the connections between the sea's color and wine? And then Duescher goes on to explain that in your color spectrum, if you if you named colors differently in and divide the spectrum differently, you can see how the sea's color and wine are on the same spectral line. If you just classify it, the spectrum differently. And I, book is amazing, I would recommend that this whole sense of language is a way of categorizing the world. And then as an impact on how you see it and understand it, it was something that is just like one of the basic ideas underlying this book as well. And and you will see it in book two is going to be a lot more of that. Yeah. He's just making us more impatient. It's everything we're in book two, in book two and I'm like, this is not done, this is not fair. I protest, I protest. Absolutely. And I think we're kind of getting close to the end of our time. So before we get into the audience Q&A, because I'm sure they're impatient, I just have one more question that I'd like all of you to weigh in on, which is that I got them spoke at the beginning about the need for infrastructure to, you know, kind of build up in the NSFF. So coming back to that a bit, what do you think is the future for Indian SFF? And what infrastructure do you think we need, you know, not just to encourage new readers to pick up books, but also to encourage upcoming writers and, you know, more diverse voices from within India into the field. Hello. I was not sure if I was being heard. Shall we do this in alphabetical order of last name? Anyone who wants to start. I guess I can, since nobody else I can, I can briefly go first on this. Yeah, I mean, so honestly, the experience I've had working with Strange Horizons, the magazine for the last four years, and publishing this book in India is that essential to all of this is a community, a community of readers, a community of writers, a community of editors. For a community to form unique spaces, these spaces can take different forms. They can be book clubs like this one, it's very important. They can be magazines like the Mathila review, which is I think at this point, the only regular science fiction magazine run out out of India. There can be cons conventions, which are all the rage in the U.S. and in the U.K., but don't yet properly exist over here. All those become spaces where communities form. And that, and without that, it's not going to happen. So I think we need to build over time towards that kind of a community, so that someone who thinks about writing, you know, is someone who's interested in tech thick. First of all, I mean, the journey I had, right, since the age of 10, I was a fan. So I spent 16 years as a fan, four years as an editor, and then now as a novelist. I think that's a very typical journey of a science fiction writer. You always begin as a fan, you spend many years as a fan, then you become a writer. But when you are a fan, you need to see how you can progress to becoming a writer, if that is where your interest lies. I never saw that when I was a fan. It happened finally, but I never saw what the root was. And I think if you had this infrastructure as a young fan who dreams of becoming a writer, which I did, if you could see up the path, then you would be able to go on that. And I think all of this is what would help create that path. Because still, I mean, honestly, still my choice to publish with HarperCollins India was kind of like, in that sense, it was a risky choice because, you know, the choices people normally make is to publish with a broad because that's where you get an audience, readymade audience. I wouldn't say there isn't an audience here, but there is like an existing audience over there. And that's where you expect it to kind of make your name. And then Indians will read you because you've gotten validation from the West, right? That's still the presumption. And I'm not saying it's wrong. I think there are good reasons why people would do that. And I wouldn't judge anyone for doing that. That is what you need to do if you want to establish yourselves. But I think that with all of this, we could actually then write on our own terms, publish on our own terms, and not have to look to that part of getting in from there and back, you know, to become transcription writers. I mean, okay, yeah, that's, yeah, I'm going to speak about it from the non path towards writer perspective, just as a reader. What I completely agree with Gautam when he said that we don't need to wait for validation from the West. A lot of us identify as SF fans and SF readers, and almost everybody seems to take the same path in, right? An Asimov or a Clark or something like that. Great. I mean, whichever works for you. Some come in via, you know, DeGuin and all of those, and Tolkien and all of that. Because primarily, because when you walk into a bookstore, this is what sort of still greets you, right? And of course, George R. R. Martin, most of them. But now that we have enough, it's also a feel upon us as readers and as fans to speak about it, you know, to speak about the books that we love and to talk about it, you know, even if it means even a short review on Goodreads or an Amazon or sharing it on social media and talking about it a lot. I mean, the minute, you know, you get a hold of a Western novel, I got this, you know, this support are in your writers and in turn, you know, like, for example, if, if chosen spirits does really well, like the wall does really well, then we'll have more and more books of that, right? It's a bit of a catch-22 situation, that the other thing also that we need is a space in the official literary events mapped, so to speak, you know, which is where I think I will give due credit to the Bangalore Literature Festival, who probably became the first major literature festival, you know, to say that, hey, listen, we're going to have a dedicated SF track, right? So that was a chance that they were taking. So in the first year, I mean, Krishna was a panelist, the first year that we had just like two panels and, you know, there was such, you know, when there is an avenue, people will come and looking at the response the next year, we had almost six to seven different panels, including in the children's section with Manak Verma, you know, Yudhan Javijirathne, and all of these people came from Sri Lanka, we had Yen McDowell coming down from Ireland, you know, it's sort of, you know, we had Yudhan Pramiddas, we had Sukanya Venkat Raghavan, so, you know, the community just, just sort of forms that way. But beyond that, there's so much, this thing of online, and I have found from my personal experience that when there is an avenue, people will sort of come, come together. Like for example, just last week, somebody was saying that, hey, with this TBG quiz, I think I found my gang and stuff like that. And some of them may go on to become authors and writers and all that sort of thing, but at least we're starting to come together and we're starting to talk about it. So, you know, it falls on us as readers as well. Okay. I actually, you know, totally resonate with and I should actually say, Gautam, thank you for doing that in terms of publishing in India, because I think that has been a very, very important thing to do. And it's, you know, it's a fact that many readers probably also don't realize that, you know, a lot of writers who are known as Indian SF writers abroad probably sell fewer copies than we think they do. But they are better known because we always like things that are coming from overseas, whether it's, you know, I think we still have that attitude, especially because we relate Indian writing to not very great writing. So there's still this whole duality of either it's going to be very lit and, you know, of a completely different category altogether, or it's going to be very bad writing. And in between, you have well written, but very interesting books in the SFF realm and people just don't know where to categorize them. So I think, and that sort of ambiguity is something that is going to go away only if, you know, as Shanoy also said, not only do writers have to say we are going to publish in India first, this is our main market.  And that validation, that thing that it's okay, you know, that you don't necessarily have to drop Asimov and Clark's name or Liguine's name when you say I enjoy reading SF has to become a thing. It's got to become okay to say, you know, I read this amazing book called The Wall, it's by this guy called Gautam Bhatti and man, can that guy write? So, you know, I think those conversations have to happen a lot more. And, you know, strangely enough, and just just for my thoughts on what is actually going to give us this final Philip, you're not, it's going to sound strange, but it's actually going to be Corona. Because in two ways, one, it's because people are going to be like, okay, these guys are not writing about real things that we cannot relate to. This is your life, you can now relate to it. And the second thing that is probably going to happen is we're going to see a lot more media, visual media content coming out in the SFF realm simply because now social distancing means everybody's forced to shoot with green screens. So, suddenly there's like this huge demand for SFF scripts of all kind. And I think that might suddenly make it the commercial turning point where this becomes, you know, a forced to recommend. I think as a craft point, we are already there. You know, we are there, we're pushing the envelope every day. I think the readers are already there. Now, it's just the question of what, how are these factors going to coalesce to make it a commercial turning point? And yeah. That's quite insightful. Thank you, all of you. That was wonderful. I think, I think let's go to the audience questions now. Pradeep Mohandas has a question for Gautam. Is Pradeep Mohandas here? Can he unmute himself and ask? Or, okay, I'll just read out the question. Yeah, Pradeep from YouTube, so you might want to do that. Okay, okay. So Pradeep is asking, what is the role of horizons in his life? Did strange horizons play any role in thinking of the role of horizon, which inspired the story in the wall? For the role of horizons in my life. Yeah, in your life and did the idea of horizons, your work with strange horizons inspired the idea of horizons in the wall? All right, no. Well, the second question is no, because the work on this book began 12 years ago, for various reasons. It was suspended many times. And it finally got done right now. But the book is much older than strange horizons in the part of my life. And I think it's a very happy coincidence that strange horizons, which is in many ways has shaped how I understand science fiction also has horizons and horizons as a fundamental part of this book. But no, I mean, the answer, I think, is much more internal to worldbuilding, which is that it's again about how language fascinates me and just the sense that if you were living in this world, which was surrounded by a wall, you know, on all sides, and wherever you went, that you would get to the wall, something that is we takes for granted, which is the existence of horizon as part of what it means to live in the world is something that people in that world would just find it so difficult to imagine and just the the attempt to imagine that would itself be a bit like an act of liberation, which is again something that happens in the book. People keep trying to imagine what it might, how to visualize what horizon would be. And so it was that was the kind of driving force for making the horizon as a concept central to the wall. And of course, there are broader themes about discovering horizons, getting to the horizon, how the horizon keeps receding from you, even as you go towards it, right? This is the famous from Virgil's Aeneid, you have that sense of that, that far away shore that keeps receding, even as you sail towards it, you never get to it. So the horizon again, you know, keeps receding as you go. So you never actually reached the horizon. So is the quest for the horizon actually an illusion? So there are all those all those ideas that are, you know, which I think depends on how the reader receives them. But central to it was this struggle over language and how to imagine those things and how to liberate yourselves by being able to imagine them, despite the constraints that are kind of around you. That's wonderful. There's a request from one of the viewers. It's not a question, really, it's just that could you share a high-resolution map of Sumer, because it's impossible to zoom into it on the Kindle copy and I agree because I had this. Yeah, no, no, I've gotten this comment from a number of people and I've written to the publishers and I wrote to them again right now like equally five minutes ago while I saw this thing that I quoted the comment, not the person who I just called I said, look, this is a comment. This is what people have said. Many people have said, please can you sort this out? I hope they find some way and just a high-resolution map I could put online would be fine. Yeah, that'll be great. The publishers kind of times be, you know, it might take some effort to get to get some things that you think are easy to get but they're not. So yeah. I think they're always learning a speed. He's saying this in his class fiction. Publishers can be, what kind of seniority are lots of philosophers? No, it's like between pragmatism and diplomacy. Telling a few more people, he's searching for no way. Come on. No, I mean I said like it's just what I found often I guess I guess a little funny is that you think that this is something very obvious, right? It should be the easiest thing in the world to get a high-res map and just like put it up. But somehow there'll be like a copyright issue here like a legal issue there and not an IP lawyer. So I don't even know what those issues are. But there'll be like a whole bunch of things that will require clearance from someone and then from somebody else. And so and yeah I mean I just found that the things that I thought would be very easy to manage somehow are not because of the number of actors involved in the publishing world around those issues. But I hope it's possible to sort this out because maps are really fundamental to the genre and I do think and I think I better understand that. So I hope that sorted out. I mean as someone who can only read physical copies I cannot bring myself to do e-books. Someone will think score one for physical books. It's a beautiful looking book. Seriously. It's like I couldn't get the physical copy here. Like I could only get my hands on a Kindle really quick. That's what I did. Okay so anonymous question from YouTube. Are there any specific books that you read? I think this is for you Gautam. Any specific books that he read that he can share that provided insight into the lived experiences of transgender queer women which helps you provide representation respectfully. Right. I mean so transgender no. I mean and I've not in that's an issue of representation that I presently do not think I'm equipped to address and that's not in the book and that's a lack of the book and I felt I wasn't equipped to address that yet and hopefully in the future I will be. So that's on the issue of transgender representation. On the issue of queer representation well I mean I guess I mean that other life in the law comes in at some point and because of engagement with the law around this issue, books like Covering by Kenji Yoshino, The History of Same-sex Love in India, a book that he cited in the court case, things like that. So there were books of that kind and just like a lot of scholarly literature around courses in law schools around the legal frameworks of gender and sexuality. So a number of articles in scholarly journals whose names I can send later on but what I want to say is that that was secondary. That was an understanding of theory. At best you could have a competent understanding of queer theory so that that is still not going to I think and just reading about it is not going to enable you I think to do justice to experience which is why for me the irreplaceable bit was sensitivity reads and that gave me the kind of feedback that I think no article, no book could have kept given me. So I would count sensitivity reads and my friends and my colleagues who read specifically those portions and explained to me when they were accurate and when they weren't accurate representations of their experiences in being able to do whatever I finally did. That was the most important part by far. Wonderful. Thank you. Pranavi has a question. Pranavi, do you want to you know ask it yourself a question with reference to Mithila's name? I think I think Gautam has already answered that. Okay. He said it's because yeah. So another question that I actually wanted to ask was I am not sure if I remember this right but there's been a curious lack of fauna in the wall right. I think you mentioned that as well. Yeah. Yeah. Can you I found that very interesting and I didn't recognize it up until you mentioned it now. So why do you think that is as in within the world within the rules of the world? Why was it so? Yeah. I mean so that that that is not a question that can answer right now. It would be a bit of a it's going to hold up on that right now. Yeah. Anybody. Okay. No. I was waiting to see if he says book two again. Yeah. I was I was waiting for that. I was like here it comes here it comes. Yeah. But but I mean so what I can say is that that I think I think it is obvious the city within the wall is a constructed system. It's not something that arises naturally. And and I think what's also going to clear from on the novel is that human beings were provided exactly the right amount of resources in the right quantities to be able to survive in a decent way.  Given the physical constraints, every time you add something to the ecosystem, you will need to add three or four more things to sustain that addition. Right. So so it's basically that if you have a specific animal that animal will need to feed on on on something, you know, will need to eat something you need to have that specific crop or the other animal that exists and so on. So the more you add the more you will need to add to make it a functioning ecosystem. And so I think the the challenge in in not my world building, but within the context of the novel, the world that was built, the world that was somewhere, was that in that physical space that is limited, what are the least amount of things you can you can put in to ensure that human beings can live. And and and to the extent was possible to do that without without fauna. It was done again, because fauna would need to have space and so and space is like a huge constraint, right. So so it's basically given the small space, what is what are the minimum number of things you can put in to ensure that that life was on human life was on and that was what was put in finally. Why that was so well, as I said, that is something that not now we answered. I tried wrangling some info about book two, but well Okay, Nemo has a question for Gautam. And this is from YouTube. How did the book cover come about? And are you open to new designers for book two? I wonder if Nemo is someone I know, because I have that question, the way questions, the question I heard very recently in a very specific way, but I don't think yeah, I wonder if Nemo is someone I know. Anyway, the book cover yeah, there was a cover designer. They asked me what I wanted to represent on the cover. So I said, you know, I give them a rough outline and then they gave me some options and this was the one that after the confrontation, I decided upon. Now, I know that the cover seems to have really polarized opinion. There are some people who have, who think it's very good, and there are some people who detest it. There are people who have said that a more minimalistic cover would suit the book better. And I guess for book two, I would be thinking of something much more minimalistic. I have a sense of what I want for book two. But yeah, I'm definitely open to a completely different design that is actually, you know, more on the lines of cover of the Handmaid's Tale or things like those books where, I mean, there's like one core idea that's conveyed in the cover and it's, you know, that's it. It's not meant to be visually overwhelming, but just like very, very spared. So I think that might suit the mood maybe better. And so yeah, I'm thinking about that. And someone did a delicious rendition of a possible cover on Instagram, which I just loved. So yeah, I'm really open to that idea. I'm totally in that minimalist camp, if you can make it happen, nothing like it. Yeah, I think I see all the people whose judgment I really trust have gone down that route, and you're the latest one. So I think the push for that is becoming overwhelming and difficult to avoid now. So yeah, it'll probably go down that route, I think. Wonderful. I'm in a minority, but I love the cover. My mom likes it. I said it. Okay, I'm going to pretend. I'm not sure how to feel about that, but I'm going to pretend I didn't hear it. Well, no, I trust my mom's judgment. In that sense. All right. Thank you. My mom used to be a filmmaker, and so design is something that is really, really something central to her. And she actually designed the cover of the previous non-fiction book. So yeah, in that sense. Yeah. That's wonderful. I don't think we have any more questions from the audience. And we have actually run over time quite a bit. I think we'll close this for now. And yeah, and until inside, I'm sure we'll be back soon with something great because this has been fabulous. I really loved this. Thank you to everyone who attended the session today. I hope you all enjoyed it and that you will pick up a copy of the wall immediately. Don't wait for book two, please. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. This was wonderful. Thank you, Gautam. Thank you, Krishna. Thank you, Shenoy. It was really great interacting with all of you. This was wonderful. Thank you, Pranavi. We could not have curated this so well without all your contributions. Thank you, Zainab and Hasgeek for hosting us and getting us all together. Thank you also to Anand Philip, Pratik Shah and the Bangalore Sci-Fi Club for your support. Have a wonderful weekend, everyone. And thanks to you, Vijay Lakshmi, for such a wonderful job of holding this whole thing together. Thanks so much. I could have done it without you. Thank you so much.


gang let's read the first I think four pages of forever people I found the I found the pages there's a couple of three comic books that I couldn't find the the comic books online so I had to take pictures this morning and load them up I started 10 days ago on season 8 10 days he went through he went through eight seasons or seven seasons in 10 days oh my god that's a lot of Superman and Lois Lane funny funny check this out return the forever people by Dementis Collins and Kessar down at the bottom over there over there check this out so page one I don't think you'll be able to read it but I'm gonna read it for you while you look at the images okay just beyond infinity's edge lies the barrier its existence is unknown to all but a few and they guard the secret jealously for what lies beyond the barrier is forever and more and forever can be a dangerous place hi I didn't hear you come up my name's Sarah fan you know really far out yeah I guess I'm kind of a famous in certain circles what sure I'll tell you I love rapping about old times and believe me man those really were the days what the hit it won't hurt yeah cosmic cartridges I call them great stuff got one for every occasion this blue one is my favorite just let it sit there in your hand close your eyes concentrate and this instant oneness you know out of your body and off into the universe what oh sure do all days well where do you want want me to the beginning right make sense to me I guess the beginning was out there the big beyond over the rainbow you ever see that movie guess not there's a long way from here and right the story stay cool man I'm getting to it it's starting a place called super town hang on a sec if I use the orange one I can show you what I'm talking about there give me another second to focus in and there you go man super town at least that's what we use to call it most of the most of the straights they just call it new Genesis hey how about that too huh you must get around awesome awesome awesome