Okay. Good. Once again, welcome everybody to BC212 course on Christian apologetics. Thanks for joining the class today. Let's take a moment to pray together and then we will get started. We'll do a quick review of what we did last week and then move forward. Okay. May I request somebody to please pray with a class? Let's get started. We want to thank you for this morning. Lord, we pray that you would speak to us from your word and help us to understand more from your scriptures, especially in the area of answering questions. Pray to God that you would give us your wisdom and understanding and the knowledge and in a way that we would be able to impact people around us a lot. Thank you for pastor. Thank you for the course. We thank you for the entire class. We will bless this once again. Jesus' name we pray. Amen. Amen. Thank you. Thank you everyone. So just a quick review. Last week we spent our time in the section where we were looking at the person of Jesus Christ and we were looking at the uniqueness of Christ. We looked at the resurrection of Christ. We just went through how we can look at the resurrection of Christ from a very logical point of view, given the information that we have in the Gospels. Of course, on one hand, like we said, we believe in the resurrection and we have experienced the risen Christ. But then if you just try to look at the Gospel account logically and go through the details, we could just from that show that the physical resurrection of Jesus Christ had to be real and not some made-up story that somebody came up with. So we kind of went through that and maybe I'll just quickly review that. In closing, we talked about why we say that salvation is only in the person of Jesus Christ. And that is again very important. We need to be very clear about that. We cannot compromise on that. Of course, we speak the truth in love, but we have to speak the truth. Salvation is only in the person of Christ. So I'll quickly review that part. And then today the plan is we'll talk about sharing Christ with the Hindu, sharing Christ with the Muslim. And then possibly we'll get into the next chapter, which is understanding suffering. So hopefully you will cover this ground, all of these things today, or at least get into the understanding suffering part. So let me just quickly review and then we will move forward. All of these PDFs have been shared with you, so you could just go to them. So the resurrection of Christ, the resurrection of Jesus Christ, we looked at just the Gospel accounts and said there are these obvious things that we can point to that very logically help us give evidence to the physical resurrection of Christ, the broken Roman seal, the empty tomb, the large stone that was moved, the Roman guards ran away, the great clothes were left behind, and Jesus' appearance is confirmed by witnesses. There were 500 witnesses, there were hostile witnesses, and his own family were there as witnesses. Then we said the disciples own lives, the fact that they gave their lives for the sake of this message of the resurrection, which was significant. And also today in the name of the risen Christ, lives are changed and miracles happen. Then we talked about the importance of very clearly stating that salvation is in the person of Jesus Christ. Now we say that because that's what the Bible says, the word of God clearly states it. Second, because we are convinced about the uniqueness of Jesus Christ. We did that in a separate chapter. And thirdly, because there's nobody else who actually provides a complete remedy for sin and a promise of a relationship with God. There are a lot of religious teachings, but here Jesus is providing remedy for sin and bringing us into a right relationship with God. And so we say that in this word the Bible teaches salvation received by grace through faith. And what we have to do is to repent and believe. So we went through so far. So let's talk about today sharing Christ. Now we're just dealing with Hindu and Muslim. And then maybe towards the end, if we have time, we will look at a few other groupings of people. But aside from Christianity, the Christian faith, Hinduism, Islam and Judaism are the three other significant religious belief systems in the world. Hinduism and I mean Islam would probably overtake Hinduism. It's just happening. But both of these seem to be the two largest groupings, Hinduism, Islam. And so it's good for us to understand a little bit about Hinduism, understand a little bit about Islam, and see how to position the message of Jesus Christ so that a person from that background is able to understand the message and also able to see the difference. So when we talk about Hinduism and of course I'm not an expert on Hinduism and Hinduism itself is very vast. But we want to get the essence of it. What is the core of it? In contrast to the Christian faith. So the thing with Hinduism is that there are about 300 million gods and goddesses.  Every village would have its possibly its own god or goddess and a mishmash. A lot of gods and goddesses, not just one. You would find many typically in any village you go to. So village to village, you know, so many things are there. And then overall, at a high level, they have these three gods or Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva. Typically, gods are assigned by their activity, what they do or what kind of a blessing they would bring or what kind of a destruction they would cause so on so forth. So there is, there are so many. But that is also a problem because when we present Jesus, a typical Hindu, I'm not saying today, today we have very fundamental, very militant Hindus who who react differently. But I'm just saying in general, a typical Hindu would welcome any other god or goddess into this whole plethora of gods and goddesses. So there's no problem for them to add a few more, you know. So when we talk about Jesus, the problem is they are typically maybe very welcoming. Oh, yeah, he's a good person. He's another man. He's another God man. Whatever you say, they may say yes to and just add him to the list of gods and goddesses. And that's not how we want anybody to receive Christ. And that's not the way the Bible presents Christ. So we have to be careful about that. The other thing about man, of course, we know the Bible teaches man a sinful, but in Hinduism and especially when you hear, you know, when people talk about man, man is essentially considered part of God. So, you know, we, so there is this elevated status of man who can become part of God, part of the eternal God. So at the same time, sin is not a sin is looked upon more as bad deeds and good deeds as opposed to the way we look at sin. As something that actually disconnects us from God, distances us from God and would eventually result in an eternal separation from God and hell. So while the understanding of sin is there, it is more in terms of good deeds and bad deeds karma, as opposed to our understanding of sin, which is, which has serious consequences. So that's also something to keep in mind that we need to emphasize that we need to say that God is absolutely holy. We are created beings. And when we do wrong, it's not just an increment or a decrement in the count total count of good works and bad works. But it's having serious consequences. Sinful man cannot enter the presence of a holy God, you know, so that understanding has to be communicated in terms of scripture. Of course, we have the word of God, the Bible. They have the Vedas or a book of knowledge, books of knowledge and then other historical books like the Mahabharata and Ramayana and other scriptures. Now, when we read these books, they seem to be very historical stories, legends, maybe at some point. But they draw a lot of lessons from these, you know, the Mahabharata way, Ramayana. They draw stories and practical lessons and from that. And of course, the Bible stands out in a few, if you read side by side, the scriptures, of course, other than the historical books of the Old Testament. The Psalms, the Proverbs and when you come to the gospels, the teachings are very, very clear in the Bible. But here's something we don't need to necessarily compare, but it's just for information sake. Jesus, like we said, he could be either readily accepted, which is likely among many traditional Hindus. They would respect and accept him or among the militant Hindus, today they are very, very opposed to Jesus Christ. So they may react in a very violent way. Today, just because of all that has happened, they could react. They could think that we are here to convert people and so on. So that's their response to that. We have to keep in mind, in terms of, you know, life purpose, the whole part is about karma, which is your deeds. As long as you can maintain a higher count of good deeds versus lower count of bad deeds, you're going to make it.  So that's kind of the philosophy that they generally speaking, they would have for life. And when we talk about salvation, heaven, hell, the idea is that if you have good karma, eventually through this, as you go through a cycle of birth, life and death, that is the reincarnation and your total karma, your total good deeds are always, you're outweighing your bad deeds. Eventually, at some point, you're going to be liberated from this cycle of reincarnation. And you're going to experience salvation, moksha, and which will result in being united with God, that is your nirvana, which is that you're going to become one with God, the union with the divine. So the idea is, if you do a lot of good works, keep doing it, you will come out, you'll escape this cycle of birth, life and death, reincarnation, that is salvation. So salvation is getting out of the cycle of reincarnation, heaven is, in contrast to heaven, it is attaining nirvana, which is becoming one with the divine. So that's the idea here. And in terms of hell, there is no hell as in a place of eternal separation from God, but it is simply being trapped in the cycle of reincarnation. So that is the understanding or the overall philosophy. Now, there will be adaptations, there will be variations in how people practice this. For example, there would be people who worship a certain select set of gods and goddesses, they would carry out certain rituals, so not everybody doing the same kinds of rituals. Each one are choosing their own way of doing good works and good deeds and observing festivals. All of that is a so many wide variety of expressions within Indivision. And then, of course, what has happened is that in the Western world, the whole New Age philosophy, the New Age movement, which started a couple of decades ago, adapted certain ideas of Hinduism into this New Age movement, where they're just kind of bringing in ideas from all the religions, bringing it all together and forming or formed what is generally known as the New Age. So they have taken things from Hinduism, from other Eastern religions, so on, so put it all together and created this define your own religion kind of thing. And so you will find certain ideas of Hinduism coming into that. So there may be people who are not necessarily who may be of Hindu background but who are now more of practitioners of what we would refer to as a New Age expression of Hinduism, which is a mishmash of various ideas and so on. So typically, when you look at it, especially from within India, how it is practiced, we would see caste system. This is pretty strong still, not maybe in a very obvious way, but in very silent ways. In some places, yeah, it is very obvious, but in other places, it is there, but it's very temporary quiet, but people still observe what caste are you from, especially when it comes to marriage or comes to associations or how you relate to people, these things come in. Sometimes even affects even businesses, when who you do business with, you know, the whole idea of reincarnation. We mentioned that yoga, like we said, is an important part of Hinduism and sadly globally yoga has been adapted in so many different parts of the world. It is packaged as some form of wellness, a health program, but actually its roots are very spiritual. And if you look at it, there are just these four main kinds of yoga that has to do with thought and devotion and action and control of self or self-control. So whatever physical exercises, they are technically connected back to some form of spiritual exercise. So, but anyway, yoga has, you know, you find people all over the western world practicing yoga and so on, as a way of wellness and keeping fit and so on. We talked about karma, which is actions, dharma, which is doing goodness, expressing goodness. Our task, which are human forms or incarnation of God, so they have this idea as well. So the question is, you know, we've understood a little bit about Hinduism, the background. How would we present Christ to them? What should be the points of emphasis in our conversations? And of course, we don't want to fight or argue, but when we present Christ, it's got to be clear so that they understand and then they are left to make the decision. We're not obviously going to force anybody, but just that when we communicate Christ, the message of Christ, the message of the gospel is to be very clear. And they need to see the uniqueness and the difference, the distinct distinctiveness of Christ. So how would we present Christ? First of all, like we said, sin and evil. You know, the fact that in Hinduism, sin is looked upon as, you know, okay, you've got more bad works than good works, but it's not really affecting your relationship with God in the sense that, you know, you're not distanced from God, so to speak. You just have to, you know, get better at doing more good works or do Dharma. But we need to emphasize the holiness of God, which they would agree with, God is holy, and that this is what sin does. It separates us from God. It keeps us from entering the presence of God.  And then having shared that, so that's a very, that's a clear distinction from reincarnation, when we talk about sin and its consequences. Then we present forgiveness as contrasted with karma and reincarnation. So we emphasizing forgiveness that comes through faith in Jesus Christ. And again, we have to very logically explains, you know, our sin has its consequences. How are we going to escape an eternal hell? Well, our sin has to be paid for and that has happened through the work that Christ did for us through the complete sacrifice. Now, so obviously in Hinduism, there is no concept of free and total forgiveness of sin and salvation as a gift. Because there the concept is you have to earn it. You've got to make sure you do more good works than bad works. You've got to make sure that your scale is higher or heavier on the side of good works. Basically, you have to earn your salvation. You've got to work for it. You've got to earn it. And so it's very different from salvation as a gift. Forgiveness for sin based on the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. But this is good. We can highlight that and say, look, this is what the Bible says. This is the love of God. This is God's desire to enter into a personal relationship, which again doesn't. We can talk about that later. That's again another point of contrast. Then we've mentioned this already. Christ contrasted with many avatars. So here again, we don't want to point fingers, but we need to emphasize that God came into this world once as opposed to, you know, in Hindu concept, God coming over and over again in various forms. God came once and he was sinless, perfect. And he completed the work because he's God. And he did not need so many attempts to do what he came to do. It was a one time sacrifice. It was perfect. It was sufficient. It was complete. So Christ being the perfect expression of God. And then the very important part of a personal relationship with God here and now, which is again a very new, very different idea for them. Relationship with God is a matter of rituals. It's a matter of trying to appease God for the wrong they may have done and then trying to do a lot of good. It's not about, you know, a father son, a father daughter type of relationship, not a personal relationship. Also in Hinduism, there's a lot of emphasis on knowledge being enlightened. You know, you try to gain more knowledge and through that you read some sort of enlightenment. We contrast that with getting to know God through a personal relationship through his word through the work of the Holy Spirit. So this is again a big distinctive or a contrast. And finally, I should say another point of emphasis of contrast is that God works in us. Christ works in us to transform our lives as opposed to in Hinduism. You work out ways to improve yourself through various forms of self-discipline or self-realization or attaining higher level of knowledge and so on. So in Hinduism, the emphasis is on you improve yourself. You make yourself better through various disciplines, whatever you can. In the Christian faith, we are saying God works in us. He makes us new creation. He empowers us to overcome sin. He empowers us to live righteousness. He reveals himself to us by his spirit and through his word. So there is a big contrast here and we can present. So presenting the gospel message, it's good to, you know, emphasize the gospel messages the same. But as we are presenting it, it's good to clarify these points. When we are speaking to an audience who are from Hindu background, that we emphasize these things or clarify these things. So they see in their minds the difference between the message of Jesus Christ and what they have as part of their philosophy. And of course they need to make their choice of choosing to believe in Christ as they experience Christ working in their lives. Now again, what we see is there are, as always, there are a lot of Hindus who come to Christ because of an experience of the power of God. Maybe a healing, maybe an answer to prayer. So there is that important aspect, the supernatural, the experience of supernatural. And then there is also those who just find the Christian faith more logical, more meaningful. They see this distinctive, this difference that Jesus Christ is, there's so much of meaning in what the message of the gospel is. So we have both, yeah, people who come to faith, the Hindus who come to faith in Christ because of a supernatural experience. And there are also people who come to faith in Christ because the message of the gospel is so clear, it's so compelling, it is so powerful in contrast to what they have as their philosophy. So if we can, you know, do our part to make sure that when we present the gospel, these things are highlighted, not in a way of putting them down, but in a way of clarifying this is what the gospel really is. It's going to help them make their decision for Christ. So let me pause here and let's take up any points, anything you want to ask, any questions, any thoughts? Is it clear? Anything okay? Okay, I see your messages, bye. Alright, so if you have a chance, whenever you're going to share with somebody from the Hindu background, keep these thoughts in mind so that you know how to present the gospel in a very clear way, in a way that they see the difference. So like that, let's look at somebody from the Muslim faith. So lesson number 14, sharing Christ with the Muslim. So like we said, Islam is among the two largest religious groups, aside from Christianity, in fact, in one sense Islam is growing rapidly, just because of the population growth, the growth of the number of people and predominantly the Middle East, and also in Southeast Asia, Indonesia, one of the world's largest Muslim populations. And so when we want to try to understand Islam or people from the Muslim faith, what do we know? What should we keep in mind? So for the, and again, we have to keep in mind that just like what we said about the Hindus, there are the conservative Muslims or the traditional Muslims who are very orthodox or hold on very tightly to Islam, the Muslim faith. And then there are the, we can call them as more contemporary Muslims who are actually distancing themselves in some way from the conventional Muslim faith. For many reasons, because one, of course, because of all that has happened globally, they do not, they do not subscribe to the kind of violence, so on, those kinds of activities, so they're distancing themselves from traditional Muslim faith. Secondly, because of the heavy restrictions that are there, they do not see that as any relevant anymore to contemporary life. So when you meet a Muslim, when you meet somebody who, you know, who seems to have a Muslim background, we should not immediately put them into a category of a conservative Muslim. They may not be, they may be a more contemporary type Muslim who they are kind of Muslim from background, but they are distancing themselves from Islam as a religion. So you find both of these kinds of people, but let us just understand their background. So they believe in one God and they call them Allah is one eternal God. Now, this also becomes a big problem or I should say a big point of difficulty for a Muslim, because when we say the Bible talks about a triune God, they will not be able to accept that. Or at least initially, they find it very difficult to accept that because for them, God is one God. How can you have three gods or, you know, God in three persons? It doesn't make sense because for them, God is one God. And so, you know, we need to be able to cross that barrier. Secondly, again, the idea of sin is different. Sin, man's sin. We, again, we understand sin, separating man from God. They have the idea of sin, but it is not emphasized. We don't find it being emphasized the way we emphasize. For them, it's more on following the cultural practices, which is the big thing, you know, okay, you have to be like this, you have to do like this, as opposed to personal sin, which isn't emphasized or spoken of much where, for us, our sin separates us from God. Sin has its effect. In Islam, it's about, hey, are you following the rules? Are you living by the rules? This is what you do. This is what you don't do. And as long as that is kept in order, the personal sin is up to the individual. It's not emphasized. Scripture, we have the Bible. They have the Qur'an that came in around 688 written by the Prophet Muhammad. Now, when we talk about the person of Jesus Christ, they recognize Jesus as a prophet, but they do not recognize him as the son of God or God incarnate. So that's something to keep in mind and that's an area where they would have questions. The purpose of life is to submit to Allah. Now, in submission to Allah, you can do a lot of things, meaning even destructive things in the name of submission to Allah. So in the name of submitting to Allah, you kill or you do other activities which are very destructive. But if it's being done in submission to Allah, it's acceptable. It's just something we don't find here in the Christian faith. Heaven or salvation is Allah is going to make the choice. So you actually don't know. So a Muslim cannot know for sure whether he's saved. He hopes he'll be saved. He hopes Allah will choose him. And so the best he does is to live in submission to Allah, follow the rules, be a good Muslim and Allah will make the decision to choose you and accept you into heaven.  So in an effort to be chosen by Allah is where they would then maybe take the drastic step of engaging in sacrificing their own lives. Some of the things that we can say about the way Islam is practiced. Okay, just a few more things here. Islam simply means submission to God. So you're living in submission to God. And we see Mohammed around 680. He was supposed to have received messages from the angel Gabriel, which is what he is then recorded in the Quran and of course historical information. The confession they make is simply there is no God but God, Allah, and Muhammad is his prophet. So there's no God but Allah and Muhammad is his prophet. These are the two things that's kind of framed into them. So in terms of practices, the confession of the faith they proclaim, there is no God but Allah and Muhammad is his prophet.  Which is against Walilahs and against those who are opposed to the faith. So they take these things very seriously and follow the rules as far as these things are concerned. So for a Muslim, another important part of their life is the local mufti or the local leader who makes decisions for them, which are then referred to as fatwa, the decisions made by the mufti local leader. So he is supposed to interpret Islamic law and then say what has to be done in various situations. So whatever he issues as a decree then becomes what people have to follow. So this can be a problem because different places, they can be different decisions made and you're supposed to follow it. And it could go from anything, the way people have to conduct themselves in public to clothing that's to be worn to anything. So all of these things can be decided by the mufti who issues a fatwa. Basically his interpretation of how the Islamic law is supposed to be followed in that place and time. And the big sin here in Islam is to ascribe people, ascribe equals to God. And this is why when we say Jesus is the Son of God or Jesus is God, those things cannot relate to it. We cannot understand it. So the question is how do we communicate the gospel of Jesus Christ to a Muslim who's been brought up in a very, very... I'm going to talk about the traditional Muslim or a conservative Muslim who's brought up in a very strict culture and manner of life. You follow these rules. These are your five practices. You live like this. This is your confession all the time. There's one God, Allah and Muhammad, this is prophet. And if you follow this kind of a lifestyle, you're going to make it to heaven. Allah will select and accept you and you will make it to heaven. So such a closed frame of thinking, how do we present the gospel to them? What are the points of emphasis when we want to bring the message of Jesus Christ? So that's something we have to think about. And then of course we know that the Muslims come to faith in Christ in various scenarios, which we will mention. So I'm not saying that this is the only way they're going to encounter Jesus. The Lord encounters them in so many different ways. But if we're given the opportunity to talk to a Muslim and share the gospel of Jesus Christ, we need to be mindful of... These are the points I need to emphasize because this is where they are coming from. This is what they have been taught. This is what they believe. Therefore when I present the gospel, this is how I am supposed to present the gospel. So at the very beginning it's important for us to try to understand where this particular person is or where the group of Muslims are just speaking to. Where are they? So like we said, they are the traditional Muslims. And they are the modern day Muslims or the contemporary Muslims who are very different. They are looking to get away from the traditional Islamic thought. So they're thinking very different. The traditional Muslims are thinking very different. So for the most part in India we would run into traditional Muslims. But then if they have traveled over the world and they've been exposed to global culture they would be modern day Muslims where they are more open and more welcoming of the gospel message. So understand who are you speaking to? What kind of a Muslim this person is? Is he deeply steeped in Islam, a traditional Muslim? Or is he somebody who is wanting to come away from Islam and all of the restrictions and things that he or she has seen in Islam? Understand the difference. Establishing genuine friendship is wherever it's possible is important so that they can be a conversation. They can explore, they're given the opportunity to ask questions. And our part is to respond, is to present answers but let the Holy Spirit to the work. Now keep in mind that they are going to come with three big questions which has been kind of drilled into their thought in their teaching. One is, is Jesus really God? How can you say Jesus is Lord or Jesus is God? Did he die on the cross? Did he rise up from the dead?  His body was just taken down so he didn't really rise up from the dead. They've been taught that. So these are questions that may just come out to us. But then if they are willing to listen, then we can explain the fact that Christ died just by the account given to us. And if they are willing to listen, we can of course explain to them why it had to be a real resurrection. We've studied this before. So if these questions are put, we need to be ready to explain in a loving way that look, this is what we know about his death and about his resurrection. Now, if we're able to engage in conversation with them and have the opportunity to share the gospel, what must we do? Firstly, we must emphasize the nature of a loving God. So this is very foreign to Islam. In Islam, Allah is God, but he's a distant God. He is there more of a God who you just have to follow his rules. A God who has to be submitted to, a God who has to be served. So remember Islam simply means submission. You submit. Don't ask any questions.  There is no idea, no thought of coming into a personal relationship with a loving God. There is no concept of Allah loving me. Allah is somebody who I submit to as a servant, as a slave.  Second, let me set the concept of sin and how sin affects our relationship with God. That is not emphasized because in Islam it's about submission. You submit, you follow the rules and Allah will make his decision. But we're going into the details. You're saying, look, this is what happens when we sin. It affects our relationship with God. And of course, if we explain it logically, they would understand. You know, God's a holy God. When we sin, sin is not acceptable before God. When we sin, we hurt the heart of God. So I'm going to pause here. Let's go for a break and we will pick up here and go forward. And now I see some questions there. When we get a comeback after the break, we will take it up. Any other questions, you're welcome to put it on the chat. Let's be back in 10 minutes. Thank you.


So many people have been speaking about the climate crisis but the real question is why is it that we're still not acting at the scale and speed that is necessary? For 150 years we built up a world based on the assumption that we can exploit the planet for free and it translates to very dramatic impacts happening right as we speak. The climate crisis is a threat multiplier which means it exacerbates existing inequities in our society. We need to remember we're on the same planet and this is the planet that we need to make sustainable for the whole of humanity. Making much faster progress toward all 17 sustainable development goals is the best pathway to adjust the future for all and public-private partnerships will be absolutely crucial to this transition. We know that this transition will require a fast adoption of a lot of new technologies and the question today is how to find the appropriate way to find this technology. Younger generations are demanding a sense of purpose. They want to look at companies and say I am investing with you all for this reason. The solutions are there. What we need is governments to regulate, to invest and we need business to act with values. History will look at us, people, politicians, corporate leaders. These times require not only solutions but speed. There is nowhere else to look than the mirror. We are the ones that need to do this. Good morning. Good afternoon and good evening. I'm Catherine Marshall, Executive Director of the World Faiths Development Dialogue and Professor at Georgetown University. I'm delighted to welcome you to this discussion of critical issues around religion, matters and faith in action. Very much focused on how religion is involved in the kinds of crises and changes today. We are in New York City during the annual meetings of the United Nations General Assembly but with a host of other events around that. Focused on what is called often the poly crisis of climate, of conflict, of COVID still with us but also concerns about polarization. And it's a somber mood that we're seeing here because there is a sense that many of the promises that have been made with this sustainable development goals are not being achieved. That there is so much that still needs to be done. So it's a somber mood and one that is challenging leaders and partners in every sector to find new ways to work together. So our focus today is on religion and what does religion, what does faith to related but different things have to do with all of these poly crises. What is being done and what more can and should be done. Last week in Berlin there was a meeting run by the Sant'Agedio community but the theme of it was the audacity of hope. And I think that is our theme today, the courage, the audacity that we hope to see coming from religious communities. And try to take some of the promises, some of the broad statements and translate them into action. So we have a wonderful panel today, diverse, and people who are deeply engaged in thinking about these issues and have been for many years. So we're going to repose questions to each person but then have a discussion about what matters, why religion matters, but still more of what it can do and what are the major areas where more action, where more audacity is needed. So let me turn, I'll introduce very briefly the three panelists. Bonnie Dougal is the principal representative of the Baha'i community. She is deeply involved with the United Nations sitting here in New York and that's very much her focus. The Reverend Susan Henderson is the principal executive, the chief of power and light, interfaith power and light. She has long experience at a very practical level in dealing with the religious involvement in a very practical set of issues around energy but also with a strong preoccupation with climate change. And Rabbi David Saperstein, who was the former ambassador for religious, international religious freedom, the United States and the State Department has multiple hats as well and is very deeply involved in these issues. So let me start with some hopefully fairly provocative questions. Bonnie, I think you have, you exude hope and an idea of what can be done, the sense of common purpose. Maybe you could speak a bit to how you see this potential unity, the distinctive qualities of religion and how they relate to the challenges that we face. Thank you, Catherine. Religion has the capacity of lifting our vision from the rocky road to the distant horizon and I don't believe there's ever been a time when there haven't been crises in the world. We are just living in a time where news carries faster, we are more aware of what's happening in the world around us and things are pretty grim. However, it's the conviction and aspiration that leads to motivation and that's the power of religion. Though what we really need to learn better, as you asked, is how we can work together better because we can have congregations of noble-minded individuals with high thoughts but their actions contribute very little to the betterment of humanity and that's not going to do a whole lot of good. We really need to learn how to take that motivation and turn it into action and every individual has the capacity. So it's not the great learned clergymen and women that have the understanding that they can share but even at the very local levels, young people have capacity, their parents have capacity to make a difference in the communities where they live. We have communities all over the world, Baha'i communities that are learning to discuss these issues together and turn some of their deliberations into action and I can give one quick example in a little town called Tana in Vanuatu where there was a Baha'i-inspired organization that was speaking with youth about environmental issues and the youth began to think about these ideas but how do they apply them to their community and they came up with some plans and suggested it to the community leaders and lo and behold, gradually they took a body of water and they announced that this was not going to be used for anything but conservation purposes and soon they found that marine life that had been considered extinct was coming back and the Department of Ecology of the country came by to see this and it was really just through those conversations and a call to action that made that happen. Well that's a very inspirational idea that everyone is involved in this challenge. Susan, you have a very large experience I think with very practical issues that involve different communities coming together. You also have a tremendous amount of energy and focus on the global as well as the very local climate change issues. How do you see the path to action coming from this? Well thank you that's a great question and I want to start with sort of not what I would call a strategy but I want to start with what I would call a value and I think the value that religious communities bring or can bring is a sense of humility. To understand that we are as you have said in a global poly crisis, we can't do this work alone. No one of us can do this work alone. So we have to find ways to overcome our own sort of organizational egos if you will and the competition that is often seems to be a part of racing for solutions. And instead look at what is our common goal. We have a common goal here. We want to solve these issues, these crises and in order to do that we need to put together good strategies and I would say from the faith based standpoint one of the strategies is to follow the science. We need to understand that the science is real, it's speaking to us, it's evolving and we need to pay attention to what the scientists are saying. With our common goal I think we can find companions on the journey. We can look around our communities and we can find those who share our common values and our common goal and we can find ways to work together and so that can be community based organizations, it can be businesses, it can be finance, it can be indigenous communities, environmental justice communities, youth who are leading the way, women, the people are there and as people of faith we don't only live our faith within the walls of a building. We live our values out into the world and can take action together and come together and I think that's how we will eventually solve these crises is by building relationships, building trust and finding common values to work together. Well that's the whole theme I think which is dominating this week at the UN General Assembly which is partnership and collaboration which takes us to David Saperstein who has as much experience as anyone I know in dealing with fractious, difficult issues, religious discrimination conflict what one group is calling religious side. David how do you see this combination of the peacemakers of bringing together finding the power of religion to take us forward to build hope in this very complex crisis that we're facing now? First I can't tell you what a pleasure it is for me to be with this particular panel into faith, power and life so many of our synagogues as well as the churches we work with all over the country the master has worked with you and through you to strengthen their work on environmental concerns and Katherine you have been one of the preeminent voices on the global scene about religion and sustainable development it's been an honor to work with you World Faith Development Dialogue and I can't tell you how pleased I was to hear what you said since my wife and I spent time on Tana and we saw how the connection of the communities there with nature and to guide that passion that they have in that connection into such a constructive way is really a blessing and a model for communities all across the world so it's a particular pleasure for me. If we're going to succeed in dealing with any of the economic, justice, environmental, justice issues that we face it is going to require changing people the way people live, use their resources, working community, have a sense of responsibility not just to their community at the time but one of religion's great gift to concepts of ethics in humankind is this idea of the moral responsibility have for generations yet unborn the generations to come we have to change institutions the economic institutions away the capitalist system works institutions in our local community to make sure they're seeing things as religion does through an inequality lens an inclusive lens the economic inequality the justice inequality the gender inequality the geographical inequalities on a global level that we face and we have to change policy and engage with policymakers religion plays a role in all of those things changing people changing communities changing institutions we are both the most local way that people organize their lives and the most global way and there are structure religious structures all the way in the spectrum in between so religion brings a great value added we live in a moment in human history Catherine when there is more multi-faith interfaith cooperation going on in both the western countries and globally than ever before in human history we know also that religion can be the source of strife and differences and divisions but in this growth of interfaith cooperation A we can do things together none of us can do alone and B we're modeling the very kind of world we're trying to create so this is an extraordinary moment and on every one of our concerns religion is value added it is value added in the way that we have access to local communities and conserve local communities we have all kinds of networks social service networks that are feeding people educating people providing healthcare to people here we're a trusted entity in many areas where otherwise there's unstable government and corruption here we may be the most trusted institution in those communities so we can be a powerful value added in so many of the kinds of concerns that we're discussing today so it infuses everything that we're talking about and I look forward to hearing the conversation well David I think you're putting some of the potentially provocative answers to the question of why religion matters and what that translates into faith Bonnie I'd be interested in your take on some of the contentious issues and how the religious element addresses those here at the United Nations because of course that's for example I know the Baha'i community exercises great leadership on one of the most complex issues which is the role of women maybe you could bring us into a little bit of where you see the pros and the cons yeah so we've been engaging on the issue of equality of women and men gender equality we've worked on strengthening the UN system through the efforts that eventually created UN women today and we've been involved along with other faith-based groups and the feminists and I think the value that we brought was that we could bring the two groups together at the table to discuss some of the issues and at one point we had started a network of what we call faith and feminism so that the faith groups could come together with the feminists understand what some of these issues are and the fears that some people have connected to religion and likewise the feminists confront or ask the questions of faith groups and see how we can tease out some of those impediments particularly at local levels to and you know I believe and my Baha'is believe that women and men are equal in the eyes of God and we all come from the same creator and we have to be able to allow women the potential to progress and contribute to society and men benefit from that and the more we can talk about these issues the more the understanding sort of begins to and the fears dissipate and I think it's not happening enough at the local levels so at the global level we have these conversations we mostly all in support of the many agreements particularly during the Commission on the Status of Women which is one of the most well attended international events on gender equality however when things get down to the local levels we find that there seems to be that miscommunication and the suspicion and I think we need to do a better job of translating some of these messages down to the grassroots. There is a paradox that I think we all face because we're all committed deeply to gender equality and the paradox is that as citizen rights gender should never play a role in terms of the rights of citizens but the structure of many religious groups with clergy having authority and women not being allowed to be clergy in many faith communities really does create an ongoing paradox that I think we all have to struggle with and therefore a kind of affirmative effort to find appropriate roles for women to play authority structures in the interfaith coalitions that we have and to offer another model that can parallel the model of individual faith groups who have a right to their views whatever I may think of them here and you know is an ongoing challenge for us in terms of the gender lens that we really have to all be committed to. I think we're coming very much into the core issue that we're facing in this panel which is we know religion matters. We use a number that 80 to 84% of the world's population has a religious affiliation which suggests that it's simply foolish to ignore the religious dimension and yet if you do word searches of many policy documents you find nothing about religion. So we're in some senses trying to overcome prejudices or blinders but we're also trying to look at the complexity of the issue because it is a vastly complex world. Susan I think it would be interesting if you could take us a bit into the journey of the climate issues where maybe as much as in any of these poli crises whether it's conflict or children or health the religious roles are enormous but the climate one the existential crisis that faces us you focus so much on the potential collaboration. How do you take that further? Yeah well absolutely and I think you know we only have to look at the history of major social movements in the United States to understand the powerful and invaluable role of faiths and religion in advancing change here in the US and we're far from done of course with that. When I think about working in the interfaith space as I do I think that you know all major religious traditions share at least two things in common and I would say the first is a calling to care for our sacred earth and the second is a calling to care for our neighbor and in particular our most vulnerable neighbors and when we're working on climate change we're talking specifically about something that impacts both of those directly. We can look around just at the summer and the horrendous climate disasters that we've been suffering here in the US and globally and recognize that it is our most vulnerable neighbors who are suffering the worst and the longest and have the hardest time recovering from these disasters and so you know religion has a tremendous amount to say because we are implementing very practical actions. So we run a program called Cool Congregations where we're working with congregations to reduce their energy use as an act of faith and so very practical measures within facilities and we can talk about how much property religions own globally. It's an immense number but to your point earlier David you were saying you were talking about policy and we're saying we can't stop with practical action. Practical action is modeling behavior change and that is important but if all we're doing is modeling behavior change but we're not getting the policies right we are not going to achieve what we need to achieve here and that is why we are engaging people of faith and conscience around the country as climate advocates and saying you need to speak up at all levels of government for the right policies in your cities and your states the federal level related to the COP you know there's a growing faith presence at the COP and also you need to vote. You need to vote with climate in your heart and that is what is going to transform ultimately our society on this issue. This seems to me to be a perfect example of the value added of religion. So in the climate change legislation that was written here in the United States it was the religious community that drove to ensure that concern about the equity issues was there. In other words adaptation and mitigation for the poorest countries that have done the least to create the climate change crisis we face and with the least prepared and able to actually adapt to either new forms of energy or repairing the damage being done to the environment. In some of the important legislation that was considered in our congress that wasn't there at all and the religious community drove to get it on the tape and at the COP conferences the religious community's presence has been one of the most outspoken consistent voices to insist that this be a central part of what was going on. So this seems to me to be a classic example on the policy level of where the religious community really is making a difference as you described in its concern for the vulnerable, for the poor and our moral responsibility to ensure that in moving and transforming to a new world they are not only not left behind but they are front and center to ensure that they will be treated as equally as any of the developed nations. David as you were speaking I was reminded of the Hans Kuhn phrase that there is no peace in the world without peace among the religions and there is no peace among the religions without mutual understanding. You have emphasized the collective will and power. An example could you talk a little bit more about how you see the interfaith dimension of this proceeding in other words the complexity of this world and how you mobilize the common force, the audacity. First this isn't new here in other words interfaith communities think about some of the great issues I think through the United States lens but through an international lens as well and think over the decades that we have been doing the work that we have been doing here and I mean whether you are talking about it when I first came in the PL480 the Food for Beats program driven in no small measure by the religious communities. Working is an interfaith voice consistently engaging with the senators and congresspersons in shaping the program. If you look at the debt relief issues from 20 years ago the enormous role the religious communities played on the global level to ensure that debt relief became a reality here I mean I remember sitting in the room off the office the cabinet room in the White House with President Clinton with like Bono on one side and Pat Robertson on the other side here I mean it was an extraordinary group of people that came together on that issue where you talk about PEPFAR and the HIV AIDS funding you talk about the role the religious communities in COVID ensuring poor countries were provided but often they at the grassroots level were the actual people who were helping to provide some of the vaccinations and education that people had against this information that was going around. You can go down the list of where these powerful interfaith coalitions actually have been making a difference already on this. It is a problem because it's a challenge for us because often the economic and political entities that are doing similar work don't know us they don't understand what the value added is they don't understand what it means to deal with the religion they think about religion through the most extremist expressions of religion that are so divisive and powerful here yet make up only a very small percent of religious communities in the world and miss the vast array of social capital benefits the religious community brings to bear and I'm really proud that the United States USAID here in the United the main arm of our government in the US just launched this week and we were there when Samantha Powers announces this extraordinary effort to revamp the way the entire USAID programs engage with religion to maximize the development making a campaign to urge other countries to develop this similar models is actually a moment of opportunity and this poly crisis challenges that we face that really can be transformative so I remain optimistic that a lot of improvements can be made on the challenges that you set out before us so Bonnie I think in this panel but in so many other settings one can see a common ground that really links some of the most diverse from Adventist to Zoroastrian communities in this concern for the most vulnerable among us how do you and the humanitarian crises that we face that if anything seem to be increasing because of conflict because of disease because of the looming climate crisis maybe you could comment on how you you focus so much on the unity this sense of common purpose of common humanity how do you see that translating one of the challenges but how are they being overcome yeah so you know when you when you speak to the essence of who we are as humans whether you're a seven-day Adventist or a Zoroastrian as you said I think the the the calling is the same what motivates us is the same it's the well-being of humanity of old people as you said the neighbor and every religion aspires to do good in the world and to build a better future so when whenever we are having these conversations if you start at that level and then build out from there there's so much a common ground for us to focus our energies on I want to talk about what David was saying about you know those minorities on the extremes where unfortunately with media attention and part of the the the purpose of those minorities is to capture capture the news all of the attention goes to that but when you really look at the congregants of all the major faiths the aspirations are common and they are all the same and I think we need to build on that and increasingly have these conversations so that we are we are we are taking up the space and not allowing those extremes to come and port any efforts it's a challenge though because you know the old maxim a million planes land safely and the media doesn't say a word about it one crashes and the media all over the world is focused on it and the same is true with religion here it's the extremists who are willing to use force to impose their views on others political views religious views on others and persecute those who differ with them here with violence and coercion that captures so much of the news and the real story of the million planes here the millions of efforts of communities all across the world that are working for the betterment of their communities and their nations and the global scene really get missed and that's a challenge for us in terms of the future how do we get attention to the extraordinary work that innovate power and light that your church is doing your community is doing all over here that remains a major challenge for us because it becomes a filter through which even well educated people or involved in politics and development they just get fooled into joining into seeing it through the filter of the extremists and yet I think that that also applies to some of the major areas of progress that we've made as humanity you hear so much deep concern about poverty but people forget the extraordinary progress that's been made in reducing infant and child mortality and extending our lifetimes by decades within our life time but Susan you give wonderful examples from your direct experience someone told me years ago that what you need is fire from above sort of fire and inspiration clearly the voice of Pope Francis or the patriarch and some other leaders they have a global influence so that's sort of the fire from above but there's also the fire from below which is what happens at the community or even at the family level the individual level how do you see in the kind of effort that you're dealing with these coming together in practical ways that's a great question and you know I want to name what I think what I see as a challenge which is the sense of urgency that we all feel right we know that we're in a crisis we know we need to act now we know the time is short that can be very paralyzing for people and also it can result in solutions that don't work for everyone so you know it might be easy to go into a community and say what you need to do is X and that's going to solve your problem right it's harder and it takes a lot more time to go into a community and listen and understand what the needs of the community are as expressed by the community and then to be able to build a strategy and a plan to act on the problem as they see it and so we try to do what we'll call it the bottom up top down squeeze right like that's what we're really talking about here you know we love Lodato Si, we love Pope Francis' very outspokenness on the climate crisis and the global poly crisis let's face it he talks about the intersected issues in Lodato Si we are highly anticipating the letter that's coming out in early October as sort of a follow up to that and we think that it's important to have these global leaders who are speaking out and really capturing the attention and using the platform they have for good and we also recognize that it is the grassroots it is often and most often the activity at the grassroots that makes the most difference because we can see change at the local level change can happen much more quickly at the local level than it can happen as we know through Congress or through the COP or you know any other global mechanisms that we have in place people at the local level can say you know we need to put solar on the roof of our building and they can get it done and they can also work with their city council to change policy which we've had folks within the IPL community who have done just that put solar on our building the city code won't allow us to do it so we're going to go in and change the city code so not only we benefit but our entire community benefits so I think it's the both and I think it's you know having those strong messages that come from speakers who are capturing a lot of attention that's very important but the real action happens at the local level it's with solutions that are being implemented that's the important point I was just going to comment on when you said fire from above I thought you meant you know our creator God and you were going to talk about COVID because I think the COVID crisis was the ultimate you know fire from above and we were all humbled brought to our knees all the fishers in our society in our systems our economic systems were exposed and if we haven't learned from that experience and if we cannot build back better and improve the way our relationships whether at the international level or at the local level then I don't know what else we should expect because yes we can have these statements etc but if we are not paying heed then I think you know we are doomed and maybe deserve it but really I think as a hopeful faith-based actor I think there's a lot we could learn from these setbacks and learn to do things better there's an extraordinary set of lessons that can be learned from the COVID crisis good and bad and many of them do involve the religious communities in ways that are not always at the front of consideration which I think takes us back to this sort of question that we start with the challenge that we start with which is that perhaps some business is seen as an ecosystem and is understood and there's a tremendous focus on business but religion is as much an ecosystem as much a complex world that involves the mind the hands the heart that is so how do we take this to a next step we're coming close to the end of the discussion but we I think if we can explore what David has termed the value added but also the value subtracted how do we how do we deal with that with that issue in more practical ways the fact that the religious dimension is so often not front and center in thinking about these aspects of the poly crisis whether it's COVID or the future of children or mental health or energy how do we how do we do that and I would just add before I turn to all of you that it is very heartening to see the World Economic Forum which brings together so many different communities taking this challenge of bringing that religious system the ecosystem the ideas the passion the audacity which we looks to in in business into the religious world so maybe Susan you can start us off on that well sure I so I'm kind of finding myself thinking about about hope because I think in a lot of ways you know people are of faith are people of hope but hope can can sound like a negative word it can sound very passive you know like sort of I hope everything will work out you know and and that means I don't have to do anything myself and I think one of the things that that religion can add is a sense of active hope so the idea that hope means that I have agency and that what I do matters and can make a difference in the outcome right like it's it is not passive it is very much an engaged hope that says I I hope therefore I take action engaged and active hope that's I think a one phrase to take away a bunny well hope is that I believe I believe in the potential of humanity to to build a better world and and the capacity of every individual to be able to contribute to this and that's what hope hope means to me but yes again it shouldn't be passive everybody has the capacity if governments are failing well then the community has to come together to work with the government to make things happen I I I think we all have the responsibility we can't just sit back and wait for others to fix things David Nick Kristof wrote a column this weekend about the UN General Assembly where he really is challenging the overall community to to turn words and promises into real action and I think that's something you focused on and thinking about the many positive elements that the religious communities bring how do you how do you see us taking this discussion and some of these ideas forward and building on what value this particular communities which are so interrelated with others the religious community is not a separate distinctive community it's part of the overall ecosystem with its fractious divisions and its positive side how do we turn this religion matters faith in action into something more tangible so I look at the work that you do with the world faith development dialogue that really does needy gritty evidence-based efforts to really find out what works and what doesn't work in USAID's conference a year ago the evidence-based conference really kind of is affecting things on the global level to really try to measure where we can and how we can be most impactful so just a fast then rejoinder and answer to your question to each of you one is IPL's greatest strength is empowering local houses of worship to really be effective in all the ways that you indicated there are 300,000 of them here in the United States here the most common public building more than schools more than churches excuse me more than schools more than hospitals more than fire stations and police I mean it's an extraordinary institution and millions of houses of worship across the globe think about the whether potential of what that means in fighting for climate change again here in resolving these economic crises secondly here in terms of the work that you are doing and what you were saying before about the improvements made it is true that the percentage of the world population that's in poverty has greatly fallen in the last 60 years but we still have 2 billion people living at about 3 dollars a day or more and really when 2 million kids a year dying from poverty related causes and we talked about the benefit of debt relief that crisis with us again the highest levels in 50 years and the improvements we made in our last campaign 20 years ago eases some of the pressures on it but it's going to spin out of control if we don't deal with it in the next say you know in the in the next 5 years and finally to pick up on what you were saying Bonnie here if we have one message one message to the world it is that we are not the prisoners of the mistakes of the past we can be we must be and if we work together well we will be the shapers of a better and more hopeful future for all God's children that's what we believe more than anything and it's a message the world needs now more than ever before and I think that the common theme of hope is very much related to what we can do and that's I think the message on the progress that we've made that it is possible the impossible is possible even if it takes a little longer as it says in the Bible we are prisoners of hope we've come unfortunately to the end of our discussion where I think we've just opened so many different lines of thought examples challenges so I have to thank this remarkable group of people who the World Economic Forum has brought together here and to thank all of you who've been listening I hope that this is a conversation that we will continue because religion matters and faith can achieve miracles and we need to work to make sure that that's what happens so thank you very much thank you


Good afternoon. I am Messi Bopu. This is the news update. President Mohamed Abouhari is currently presiding over this week's High Breed Federal Executive Council meeting, the Council's chambers of the State House Abouja, Vice President Yemio Cibajo, the Secretary to the Government of the Federation, Boss Mustafa and the Chief of Staff to the President, Professor Ibrahim Gambari, attending in person. Also attending are the Attorney General and Minister of Justice Abu Bakr Malami, Finance, Budget and National Planning, Zainab Ahmad.


Hi, this is Pastor David Rosales of Calvary Chapel of the Chino Valley, California. In the book of Ecclesiastes, chapter 11, verse 8, Solomon wrote, If a man lives many years and rejoices in them all, yet let him remember the days of darkness, for they will be many, all that is coming is vanity. It's a sad commentary of how today many believe that somehow God and life combine to owe them perpetual sunny days. It's interesting how we desire a long life and pray that our days will be many, but forget that with long life also comes many sorrows. Days of darkness can refer to the time of old age or seasons of sorrow, affliction, loss, or pain. Obviously, the longer one lives, the greater the amount of stormy days that will be endured. It simply goes with the territory and is something that we need to come to grips with. We know this, but sometimes the only thing we want to do is to forget what are called days of darkness. We want to forget those days, put them behind us, simply move on with our lives, and on one level this is understandable. Why dwell on past hurts? Let's just move on, forget those days and leave the past behind. We need to remember that heartache and disappointment often produce the backdrop of what enhances our appreciation of God's blessings and deepens us in our character and refines our faith. The fact is, the longer we live, the more trials and hurts we will encounter, and it is often through these difficult and dark seasons that the light of God's grace shines most clearly and leads us most gently. It's when we walk through the valley of the shadow of death that we truly learn to fear no evil because we discover that God is with us, that His rod and His staff actually comfort us. It is in these times that we learn to cling to His promise that He will never leave us nor forsake us. The fact is, fearing and loving the Lord doesn't produce painless living. We all know that sometimes we actually encounter incredible pain and affliction, even when we've sought to live for Him most faithfully. As Solomon says, days of darkness will be many. But in spite of this, God's promise is that when we go through times of adversity, His light still will shine on us. We will go through many hard times, but the Lord is with us through them all. Psalm 42 verse 8 says, The Lord will command His loving-kindness in the daytime and in the night, His song shall be with me, a prayer to the God of my life. In the night His song shall be with me, like when Paul and Silas were unjustly jailed in Philippi. They were humiliated, stripped of their clothing, severely beaten with rods until their backs were bloody. Placed in a cell, the jailer was ordered to keep them secure, so he fastened their feet in the stocks. I wonder how I would have felt in the midst of this government persecution. In the case of Paul and Silas, Luke records that at midnight, Paul and Silas were praying and singing hymns to God, and the prisoners were listening to them. In the night, His song will be with me. I will praise Him, even in the dark night of sorrow and pain, because in those days He'll give me deeper insight into Him in His ways, and my heart will be filled with gratitude, and my mouth will sing His praise. The fact is, our days of darkness are not to be forgotten, but rather to be remembered. Those days, we experience, provide us with deep life lessons and memories of where we met the Lord in special ways. They provide for us powerful ways to grow in our faith in Him. The psalmist wrote in Psalm 119, verse 71, It's good for me that I've been afflicted, that I may learn your statutes. We Christians often say we want to be like Jesus, but we seem to often forget He's our wounded healer. As Isaiah said, He bore our griefs, carried our sorrows, was wounded for our transgressions, bruised for our iniquities, oppressed and afflicted, and was led as a lamb to the slaughter. This is the Jesus that every believer is being conformed into the image of, and we should not be surprised when we have many days of darkness. We must understand that it is through these things we deepen in our trust of the Lord. And it's how we come to realize that He works through all of our trials to bring us to know Him in a deeper way. The end result is that we learn not to trust in ourselves, but in God who raises the dead, who delivered us from so great a death and does deliver us in whom we trust that He will still deliver us. As we go through days of darkness, may we learn what Job held fast to in the midst of His dark days. He said in Job chapter 23, verse 10, He knows the way that I take. When He's tested me, I shall come forth as gold. In the end, we will all ultimately see that what we went through on this earth was woven together, working together for good and answering our prayers.  During these dark and difficult days, remember to look up for your redemption draws an eye. This is Pastor David Rosales of Calvary Chapel of the Chino Valley, California.


Like a full sleeve down both arms and like a little chest piece, but then she was sent straight home from school because apparently it's like in school policy that kids only had tattoos. Did any kids in your high school have tattoos? No, but like, I didn't think it would be a problem. Was it primary school? Did you say? Yeah, yeah, she was she was six years old, but like. Touch. Welcome to episode number 21 of the 21 Marty and Michael podcast. Fully actual. We're past halfway of season two. We are into the second half of this season. So if you're getting all fucking, there's only the including this one, there's only 20 episodes left of this season. And then that's it for the year. OK, so make sure you enjoy it. But that'll be like November, right? Yeah, it's like near November the last episode, but just really bask in it, enjoy it and really just be grateful. Be grateful that we're in your ears right now because there'll be a chunk of time at the end of the year, like two, two and a half months where we won't be. No, you can go back and watch all the other ones. You won't be a new forgotten season one. So just really embrace us in your ears now because. I'll tell you what, there's a break. There's a break at the end of the year. Am I right, man? There's a break. We need to sit down and have a rest, right? We still got a few guests we got to get on here. Yeah, we keep meaning to get guests on. And then we that's not Hercules. That's a different dog. No, that is Hercules is way higher and happier. That is our neighbor. That is how she sounds. Oh, yeah. Fuck. Have you noticed this? Michael's got a red dot right in between his eyes. It's very symmetrical and he did it because he thought it looks good and now he hates it. No, it's a pimple. I don't know. Do you still get pimples? Yeah, of course. Like bad ones? Not bad ones.  That's the first thing that happens. Yeah, yeah, true. That's how I know. That's how I know things are going down. Yeah, no, it's been great. So our week last week, what are we even?  Yeah.  Oh, how's this? You know, that skywriting video we put out. So I, so easy. All I did was just I call the guy and I was like, hey man, can you put this on a banner and fly around Brisbane for an hour? And he was like, yeah, okay. And like, and then seven days later, there's a plane flying around Brisbane. So easy. Sorry about that.  In the video, there was like a brief moment where there's a number displayed of someone calling Michael's phone. And that person emailed us and was like, oh, look, that number you displayed is now being getting calls. So many calls over and over and over again. Some random turns out it was a little 15 year old girl's number.   Well, what do you say to more? You called, you called the number on the plane. Like, it's not, it's not our number. It's not the first on your list to do when you watch that video. It's not our number. It's just some random person's number.  Yeah, they're probably gonna call it more so now. Yeah, but lucky we're buying a new phone and this will be out next week. So I'll be all sort of. Oh yeah, sure. We saved the day. We saved the day.   Didn't you? It was a big weekend, to be honest.  Well, Friday night I had a couple of beers with the old Tuomba boys.  You can catch them up with them. And then Saturday, I didn't really drink much but yeah, it's not, once you have a few, it's easy to spiral, isn't it? Yeah, and the hangovers are to have in three weeks off, Grog. Oh yeah.  It's like torture, isn't it?  You get down. You were torture. But we're back. We went to the gym today. And look at us. We're huge. I forgot that we went to the gym. Dude, I felt so good after it. Matt's holding a gun.  Matt's holding a gun. You always do that. You make me all nervous.    Because it is time for On This Day.  All right? Mm. Oh!  Oh, I want to hear it. You made the neighbor start yelling.  Sorry. Here we go. These are from Matthew Brown. Matthew Brown, the research. Put a lot of time and effort into these. He's a... These are basically like his children. He has such sentimental attachment to these. Don't you, Matthew? He's so nervous, he's shaking right now. Because he's just... You look cold. Do you want me to put the heater on? You want my jumper? No, I've got a jacket. He wants him to go well. He wants him to be like well received. So he's so nervous. He's sweating profusely. His white wholesome shirts just drenched in sweat now. Speaking of Matthew Gregory Brown, guess what I found today in one of our DMs? Someone has screenshot you in the background of Charmie's vlogs. And we're like, I can't believe Matt Brown's and Charmie's vlogs. They were so wrapped and so happy. It must have been an old vlog. No, it was like the Australia Day one, like the first one. Yeah, I did, I think I got the same message sent to me. That's a keen eye, whoever spotted that, by the way. Yeah, that was me. Okay, sorry. On this day in 1998, Katie Perry started collecting rats. Fuck, interesting start, okay. What started as an innocent hobby soon consumed her life as her LA apartment was overrun with rats.  Concerned family members confronted her about the rat obsession and convinced her to go back to making shit music for children, which she has done, which she has started doing again. Was this what year? Cause was it post after Russell Brandt? 1998. No, it was before. She was in the Gospels then. She was singing Christian Catholic music. Exactly. And collecting huge amounts of rats. Yeah, I guess the church has always had rats in them. So if you have a pet rat or two and don't let it grow into a huge obsession, Connor, don't let your little small rat collection or might buy another rat. Don't let that turn into, oh, now I can't see any floor in my apartment cause there's so many rats. Okay, it's just a warning for everyone out there, Connor. Connor is our film, slash editor, slash mate. And now he's got like, what, four, five rats? There's more.  And he brings them in every, and like it's just- He leaves them in the park. And he refuses to film unless he's got one on his arm. Like it's like, it's too much. It's like, they really get a hold of you, the rats. He's like a pirate, but replaced the parrot with a rat. On this day in 2003, Gordon Ramsay damaged the eardrums of an apprentice chef he was working with. Gordon blamed him for his parents getting a divorce when Gordon was a child and screamed into his ears for well over an hour. Yeah, I always wonder why he was so angry. And I think it must stem from some childhood trauma. What do you think? I really like Gordon Ramsay. I find him entertaining. Like even though he swears a lot, I think he can justify it. I like his attitude. Would you kiss him? Like drunk or sober? If he walked in right now. Peck or tongue?  Yeah, I'd kiss him. Say I've not tongueed Gordon Ramsay. Kiss him on the lips just to say, hey, I've kissed Gordon Ramsay. Little lip sucker? Yeah, I'd probably do that. I wouldn't let him kiss. He wouldn't let us. I wouldn't let him kiss. I wouldn't let him kiss Matt. It's too dangerous. He starts kissing Matt. It's just like, yeah, it's too dangerous.   Yeah, wow. He'd become a cook. On this day in 1981, Pope Francis decided to pursue a career with his church after a messy breakup with his eight year old boyfriend. Issues arose in their relationship when Pope Francis's boyfriend would prefer to play with his school friends rather than spend time with Francis. He was quoted saying, I just threw myself into my work after that relationship ended. It's good to focus on yourself after an unhealthy relationship. There was just no trust there. Oh, there you go. That's true though. If you come out of an unhealthy relationship, it's just good to focus on yourself and throw yourself into your work. So that's good on him. He bounced back like that. Francis. Pope Francis.  Francis. I didn't have any kid gone. You're Francis now. Francis. What are you looking at?  It looks like he's looking at my dick through the table. He's always on dressing us with his huge blue eyes. Guys, cute. On this day in 2015, Owen Wilson was found unconscious inside his car on a hot summer's day when asked why he was sleeping in his car, he responded, I stay in my car so that I don't lose it. I find that when I get out of my car, it gets tricky to find again sometimes. This way I will always know where my car is. Fuck, I didn't even know he was a car person.  So I get it.  And then he wrote the movie Dude, Where's My Car? He wrote that. Yeah, so that's inspired him. It was always years before 2000. Because he would have just been like, going to the groceries, quickly ducking in and buy some milk, comes out, can't find his car. So it's just smarter to just stay with your car. Can't lose it that way. He's probably gonna be in the next Fast and Furious. He's saved a lot of time. And those are the only stays for this week, Matt.  Six out of 10. Five out of 10.  Matt? Not your best work. You're not looking at us.  What are you typing away, huh? What are you looking at on the laptop? He's watching our vids. Watching. What did you just type in? I'm researching. Yeah. That's so cute when he says research. That I forgive you now. I'll think about it. All right, which brings us to our next segment has been renamed to. Uh! Uh! Uh! Uh! Uh! And there's a segment where we just answer questions that you guys have sent in via Instagram. This one's from Michael Matthews or his Instagrams is MikeyJJB. Question, where is it Marty and Michael and not Michael and Marty? Or why is it? Okay. Oh, okay. Now, um, I think when we... It's because if you listen to it, Marty and Michael, Michael and Marty, Michael is too hard to say or a little bit more static. It's a bit... Michael! Marty? It's quicker. Rolls off the... It rolls off the fingers. It flows a lot better. Yeah. So I think that's why. Yeah. And I think we have answered that in previous podcasts. We should have just put them both at the same time. Well, it was at Markle. That's why we created the website. So remember, this is sponsored by our website. But it should be that you say it at the same time. So you say your name and I'll say mine. It should be... Michael. Marty. Oh, wow. One day they're going to be able to do that. Yeah. Hieroglyphics.  Yeah. That's how they're going to have to solve that one. Yeah. It's like 3D printing, but with language. If I was to take a scientific stab, it's hieroglyphics with the 3D imaging printed up the back of it. With the volumes. Because it's also... Well, you've got to control the volumes. Yeah. Mm. So yeah. But yeah, subscribe to our university. Yeah. Oh, we told them last week about how fucked. Yeah. But we did two last week for the website. Yeah. We did Stone Tennis. Painful.  Let's have a look at this bruise and see if it's still there. We did a video called Stone Tennis.  For those of you who can't see, it's a bruise probably the size of two fists. If you make two fists and put it on your leg, that's the size of the bruise. It looks like you were branded like they do to cows. Mm. Thanks, Matt. And basically we, well, I don't want to give too much away, but we just smoked a shitload whilst playing.  And every three points you lost, you had to have another bong. And there was another video we filmed, Office Incidents. So just common workplace mishaps in an office environment. And we just sort of trying to, you know, show awareness to Office Incidents. But again, it's too graphic. We can't put it on social media. It's something on the website. I'm sorry. You talked to Mike Zuckerberg about it's not our fault. He's a Matthew. Have I seen with that black eye from you? Yeah. It does. Yeah. I broke a one meter wooden ruler on Michael's skull. I snapped across the, like, we thought it was going to hit the head. But when it snapped, it came around, hit me in the eye. I've only just noticed how bruised it is on the side.  I think it's my eyes, are you?  Yeah. Matthew Brown. I'm becoming quite flotacious. I've got a brown bruise, Brown. Mm. All right. Next question is from Hayden Rendell or Hayden Jr. 95, if you want to use the tag.  I drink my own cum just because it's my own. Oh, your cum, that's so easy. But it would take a while to harvest a lot of your own cum and, like, by the time your first loads, like, while the time the cup's that full, it would probably, probably dry. Yeah.  You'd have to heat it. You'd have to not have sex or a bat for months. No, why am I nearly gagging? Yeah, you'd have to heat the glass once it's full of cum and I'm looking at Matt because I've, he knows, I've seen him do this.   Yeah, yeah, yeah.  You had, like, 10 shits today. Very sickly sweet smell, some of them. Oh, stop. Remember, if you've got any diseases, send them to us. Farts. Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah, of course. Remember, keep that in mind. All right. Next one's from Bendix underscore zitter and he is asked, what's Michael's favorite food? I guess we can both answer it. I think doggie style, favorite food, Italian pizza or pasta, Indian or I'm getting over meat. Oh, yeah. Um, so Michael's just, yeah, it changes obsessed with one, one food, literally one meal from one place and you'll have it for two weeks and then you'll have it so much that he despises it and you'll, it'll go to the end of his cycle and he'll cycle onto the next meal that he'll consume. I think the best ones is when he gets a meal he's never had before and he's unsure, so he'll order two meals just in case. Yeah. Yeah. I never used to be able to do that. The hunt for new meals to become obsessed with, sometimes there's meals he doesn't like. I reckon standard though that I would always go back to his pasta and pizza and then latest food that I love is olives. So, he'll just have like olives. Big plate of olives.   It's easy. It's yummy. Yum yum. I'm more itchy on my nose. Oily. Oily. All right. This one's Michael Cox Instagram tag, mousycox. All right. What's the one thing both of you would never do no matter what and what's the one thing you have done in the name of funnel science that you would never do again?  Yeah. But you'd never do that again, hopefully. Yeah. What we haven't filmed that I would probably never do is I would never like, I'd never king hit anyone on camera. I'd never do that. So, that's where I draw the line is that a certain type of explosive violence I'll just, I always say no to even when the other boy's like, well, let's do the king hit challenge, man. Yeah. That was trending for a bit.  What's it called? King hit coward punch or legend swing. I think it's a combination of all three and it's, it should be called all three of those things set at the same time. With the, what's it called? The hieroglyphics. Hieroglyphics 3D. Hieroglyphics 3D. Image printing. Yeah. I think king hit is obviously the arc, but coward punches the, the term they're trying to get it corrected to. Yeah. Well, where do we get legend swing? Was that something we made up? That's just something that we made up, man. Well, we're good scientists. So yeah, I would never king hit anyone and that's something we'd never do again. I'm probably, I'm fucked. I'm over.   Yeah. After that spray we got sent in, but fire. Well, the first time we filmed with fire, we literally ran out. We forgot that when you use a fire extinguisher once it loses its pressure. So I've tried to light myself up a second time after using the fire extinguisher once and the second time it hasn't worked. And luckily we had like a little bit of water, which we mostly missed when we put it out there. Yeah. This is one of the first videos we ever filmed.  It terrified me. So probably never do fire again. Milkan.  The tattoo and then you get it removed. Well, I get a tattoo and just leave the hair there. Oh, like the eyebrow.  There's a couple of letters still left there, right? Yeah. Which one was it again? We should shave it and see. I don't know. We should shave my eyebrow and see how many letters are left, man. Do you have a gun? Yeah. Next week we'll shave my eyebrows, see how many letters are left.  On camera for these fine ringworms. No, sorry. Two grand. Stop it. I'd love you at work with no eyebrows. I just can't do it. I like my eyebrows a lot. Yeah, I wish you could grow an afro. Black label photography. Question for Michael, would you rather drown to death or burn alive? For Marty, would you rather drink a cup of your mom's Peary blood or be the receiver of a Bukaki pot? I'd rather all the blokes just splash a bit of jizz on me rather than drinking. Yeah. Just close your eyes. Just close your eyes and go to your happier place and, oh, it's raining. You're somewhere where it's raining. Yeah. Warm, white rain.  And you just think like that for 10 minutes and just open your eyes and when it's all over, Matthew. Marty, do you struggle with, do you struggle with blood? Because I notice every time we talk about blood in any type of way, you sort of get a bit. Or just periods.  Period. He's not a fan of him. Something happened to you. Yeah. I was one. Oh, sorry. I was a period.  Remember when we were in Europe and our mate that we met told us that he was obsessed with going down on chicks when they were on their period. And he said that he'd love it when there'd be little blood clumps and he'd chew them and eat them now. And he said he was obsessed with it.  Oh my God.   It's like jam. Sandwich. You know if strawberry jam, how there's like glumpy, clumpy bits? Yeah. They, oh, look at snag and stick it out and then put it in the two bits of bread because she's sauce. Oh, she's sauce on the sausage. Surely that can't be hygienic like doing that. Yeah. You think that that would next question. Yeah.  It's terrifying. Oh yeah. Yeah. Apparently drowning is nice. No. I've heard the other. Well, I almost almost drowned. I think it was our first story and our first. Drowning is like soothing letting eventually letting your lungs fill with water. It would be so much nicer than burning. So much. Yeah. Oh, true. I guess maybe we try it. Yeah. Science experiment. Oh my God. A dog just walked past. I'm not even joking. Oh, our neighbors are going to come through soon. This has happened before. I swear. This is good. Let him in. Yeah. Bring the dog in, Matt. Bring the dog in, Matt. Just open the door and see what happens. Let's do this. It's a small friendly one. Yeah. It's just a puppy. Looks cute. It looks like cocoa. Bring it in. A posse is outside. Wait. I don't know. Wait. Wait, wait, wait. It might not be friendly.  This house is so hidden and tucked away.    That was very exciting and dog ran past the house. Yeah. It's hard to find this house. It's hard to concentrate now. That was so exciting. All right. Back to it.  Oh yeah. Next question. Wait. Oh, yes. What?  Dude, just do it. I don't care. Not on the green screen. Dude, it's fine. It's safe. It's safe.    Yeah. I guess it's only cool if I do it. It would have spread. It would have gone. I wouldn't.  I don't care.  All right. Yeah. I appreciate that. All right. Last question is from Luke and his Instagram tag is Luke and stuff.  Apparently he used mustard gas as an aphrodisiac. I don't think mustard gas would work as an aphrodisiac, but I don't deny that. I don't doubt that he might have used it for that. Well, there you go. That explains a bit, isn't it? Yeah. You're German. He was German. Might be like a genetic German thing. Yeah. Like a small part of a German gene that just finds the rump of a large cow intoxicatingly lustful.   And that brings us to our next segment. Bozy's wagging his tail on me flat. Good boy, Bozy. Yeah. Next segment, Bozy, hey? All right. Stop staring out there. Have a seat and listen to the show, man.  Is it still out there, mate? Yeah, I just saw it on pause. Maybe we should put it down. I thought it was on the ground already. No, like twist its head off or something. Oh, yeah. All right. Our next segment has been for stunt time. All right, for stunt time this week, Mark and I, we each both equally do a really painful, very highly dangerous stunt. Both of us do the same thing every single week. It's the exact same amount of pain that we go through.  Supreme Patty does it all the time. Yeah. Do you want lime or lemon? Look, I haven't decided yet, but I think I'll have the knife. I reckon if I could choose, I'd go lime. What do you do, the both each, and tell me which one hurts more? Yeah, one in each eye. Oh.  I feel like it's on my face. Oh, that's a sign of a good podcast. Oh, man. Okay. Moving forward to that. How was the podcast this week?    It's stunt time with money, Michael.  Let's pour some juice into our eyes. Oh, I can't.  I've never done that before. Which one?  Get me something now. Oh, yeah.  I can't see, dude. No, I have to sit down. It's getting worse. Is there a tea towel above the... Yeah, I accidentally threw the tea towel on the bin. Sorry, dude. But yeah, I'm sure it'll stop hurting soon. Oh, yeah. It was actually pretty painful. Like, I didn't pour much in at all. And yeah, very, very shockingly painful, isn't it? Oh, dude, dude, yeah. Whatever was on the right, that one was your...  I don't want to move. That's the... I think maybe leave it like that. It looks good. All right, we'll leave it.  That was arsed. Next segment has been renamed to...    And right here, we have a big old package from Nathan.  So, I wonder... I wonder if someone's sliced it off. So, there's something in here that's wrapped. Read the note. And it's toilet paper, too. Something in here that has been wrapped in toilet paper. Let's read the note first to make sure it's not anthrax. Dear Marty and Michael! My name is Nathan Palmer, and I have a YouTube channel called NatDog17. Please give me a shout out. Everyone go and have a cheeky look at NatDog17. NatDog17.    To help ease his pain, here are two essential oils to help with stress and get restful sleep. First oil is frankincense. Helps dispel negative feelings like stress.  Soothing sensation and aroma will promote feelings of relaxation and a balanced mood. Second oil, lavender helps for better sleep and is found to eliminate harmful bacteria. Relieve muscle spasms and soothe inflamed skin. You have a lot of inflamed skin. That's so nice. I hope these are helpful and helps Michael. Alright, there's more.  For Marty, a jar of my own personal blend salsa. I recommend consuming it though because it's over 7 years old. I would like you to both smell it though or use your science skills to find out if it's edible or not. I hope this package gets to you.  Peace out dudes. Nathan, Nat Dogg 17. Alright, Nathan. Let's see what we got here. We got some old salsa. We got some old salsa and some oils. Why would you keep it? To send to us. He kept it to send to us. Wow, he's known us for ages. Seven years ago he thought, this might come in handy one day. We've got to have a whiff of this though. Let us determine whether it's edible or not. It's dated the 9th of the 14th. 2000. Whoa!  I would never do that. Oh, it smells lovely. Oh dude, just go over the green screen.  Yeah, I do that on purpose. I do that on purpose like that man. Good control on that one dude. Very controlling. Imagine if our neighbour came and saw you trying to find their dog and we had it in here.  I reckon that's edible. Smells like Bolognese. It just smells like normal sauce. I'm going to put that onto some sandwiches later on tonight. Don't know about this lid. Thank you very much for that Nathan. Yeah, thank you.  That's definitely worth cheeky squizzes.  I did Google how long Salsa is good for in jars. Seven years I bet. It just says refrigerated one to two months. Pantry one to two months. Thank you Nathan. Next segment has been renamed to Wow, back at you now.  Brisbane car vlogger. We fellas, I have a prank call for your next podcast. So the guy you have to call is my best mate Zach. And the situation is that you are someone from Petry police station calling up because neighbor noticed you driving unlicensed. And that you guys have been keeping a close eye on his Instagram.   There we go. Hello. Get out man, it's just a constable Ben sticks here from the Petry police station. Do you have a minute to talk? Yeah mate, I'm just at work at the moment. Yeah mate, we've had some complaints actually an anonymous tip that you're driving an unlicensed car and we've looked the number plate up on the car and it is in fact not licensed and it's also come up that I've been driving it so a family member can't drive my car at all. Yeah, I haven't driven my car. I haven't driven my car mate. It's registered and family member is a criminal. No worries. So the anonymous tip is actually sent in an Instagram post saying that that you are driving it and there's proof of you driving it so just legally we have to follow up these types of claims. So you're saying you haven't been driving it? An Instagram post. So a family member can't drive my car so I can take a video or anything of it. They can't drive it to the car wash they can't do any of that. So the claim is that you've been driving the car. By who? I can't say it's an anonymous tip but it's someone that lives in your area basically. That's reported you driving. I'm pretty sure it's someone in your neighborhood. The only place that's ever been driven that it wasn't by me is in the street and it's always been a family member mate. Sorry I can't help you there. I'm not after help. I'm just trying to sort this claim out. I'm just letting you know legally that we have to call this type of claim and we do have to ask you to come in to make a statement. And the person who has anonymously given the tip out has some claims that you have been driving this car unlicensed with your green pee plates and has actually sent in some footage of you driving the car. My brother's also a green pee plateer mate and he has driven it for me. And we both look similar so we can definitely be mistaken for who we are. So you've just admitted that your brother on his green pee is driving a high powered turbo car with an external waste gate. Is that what you're saying? Your brother's going to have to come in for questioning because either of you should not be driving that car. Neither of you should be driving that car mate. It sounds like a prank call to me. Well mate I'm Ben Sticks. I'm Constable Ben Sticks from the number 737 299 69 to the power of 17 and then there's 15 ones after that.     Who are you, you fuckwit?  Norse is it? You're going away for a long time. Let me tell you that rotten out young folk. I'm not Constable Ben Sticks and throwing you in jail.  You dog!  I'm coming in your joint and I'll disable that car with my pair of pliers. You dog! Anyway I'm just joking mate.  You were so scared, Zach.  It's Marty and Michael from the Marty and Michael fully actual podcast You've probably heard of us. We're kind of a big deal. Your friend sent in your number. Is this on the radio too? Yeah this is on the B105 but it's going up. It'll be on B105 tomorrow at 4pm. Oh jeez I'll have to listen to that then. But yeah it's not real. I'm not actually Constable and yeah just another classic Marty and Michael prank call. We got you. You've been done. Oh jeez thanks mate. No worries mate.  Have a good one mate. Definitely not. Thanks mate. No worries mate. See you tomorrow night. That was beautiful. I love the cranky cop that you play. Oh yeah that was infuriating.   Keep that for fast and furious. It's not on. That is the end of our show. We are the best. It has been determined that we are the best. It is written in scientific reports. We're the best. Thousand year old tablets. We're the best. It's written in the stars. We're the best. We're the best.