So, welcome, welcome to all of you. This is our last day of our virtual M&D refresher training. I'm glad that you can join us. I hope some more of your colleagues, our colleagues will join as we kick off. Let me start by sharing my screen. What are we gonna do today? We're gonna have as every day a quick recap of our previous day. I should have written every cap of day three, of course, not day four. And then we haven't quite finished talking about phase three yesterday. So we'll finish that today. And there's still one or two calculations that I would like to talk with you about in step two of phase three. And then we're going to talk about the last step of that phase. And we will spend the rest of the morning on phase four, talking about phase four. Good morning, Clifford. Good morning, sorry. No worries. So, what did we talk about yesterday? Well, we went through steps one and two of phase three and just a few things to note on phase one, two to recall for all of us. We said that this is quite a flexible process, the sort of going from phase one to phase two is quite flexible. And it's not so easy to draw a hard line between those two phases. But in essence, what step one is for is to slowly guide the potential entrepreneurs towards an entrepreneurial thinking and start visualizing the data that was collected in phase two to then transform them into action plans. And it's also a moment where the facilitators can work with the entrepreneurs in verifying some of the information that they have collected. And then we talked about coming now to the second step, we talked about why we need an enterprise development plan and what that should look like and how it should be put together. So we said that the EDP describes the enterprise and the different strategies the entrepreneurs will take covering all the five areas of enterprise development. We also said that it's really important that the EDP is adapted to the capacities of the entrepreneurs because it should indeed be them who are the main actors in designing their enterprise development plan. Of course, with support by the facilitator. And it should be comprehensive, so it should really all cover all of the five areas of enterprise development. And then we talked about the different strategies and I don't know whether you remember the slide with the different bubbles of the seven different strategies that are covered by the EDP. And then we said that the first really important decision that the entrepreneurs will have to make is to decide which position in the market chain they want to occupy. And they need to really be clear about the exact business activity that they're going to engage in. And this is really important because the information from that will flow into the financial calculations that they will then start to do. And the first one is a decision around the size of the business and the market share that they will hence occupy. And the size of the business is of course important to understand whether it will help them to achieve the financial objectives they have set for themselves. Remember in the first phase of MA&D in how much they want to be able to gain from this business for their livelihoods. And then the entrepreneurs list all the fixed assets that they will need to run their business. And this is an important step also for the facilitator to understand whether the entrepreneurs have really understood what it is that they will do as an enterprise because all of the assets need to be listed here from very big to very small. And it gives the entrepreneurs, but of course the facilitator's also an idea whether they have really thought of everything or all that will be necessary to engage in that particular activity they've chosen for themselves. And then the entrepreneurs calculate the fixed costs. And we said that fixed costs are those costs that are independent of the level of production. So independent of how much of the product the enterprise produces. And into those fixed costs will go the calculation of the depreciation of their equipment and maintenance costs. And we said that that is money that will have to be set aside every month to be able to afford replacement or repair of that equipment as time goes by. And then we talked about the variable costs and the difference to the fixed costs of course is that these are dependent on the production level. So they will change depending on how much the enterprise produces of the product. So things like packaging, transport, any seasonal labor that will need to be engaged. And then the entrepreneurs calculate their yearly income which we said is not yet the profit. And then they calculate the profit. And importantly, this is the point where the entrepreneurs together with the facilitators realized whether the profit they calculate based on these calculations previously is going to match their expectations. So here as usual, I've put together a slide of the pitfalls or the sort of questions we discussed yesterday or potential issues that you might have faced. And we said it was really important. So there was a question around who should design the enterprise development plan because there was this comment that it's quite complex and the problems that many of you and your facilitators face are is that the capacities at the local level are low. And so we reiterated that it is really important for the sustainability of the enterprise for the entrepreneur to be the one who designs the enterprise development plan. So they really need to understand what is in it and why. And of course, they need to have support from the facilitators and perhaps also from some external personnel, but those should be ideally perhaps in the family, people who will be around as the situation around the enterprise changes and entrepreneurs will need to adapt their strategies to the changing situation. And in this context, we also said that the template for the EDP that is contained in the field facilitator guidelines should really be used as a toolkit. So it should be adapted to the local needs and capacities. You don't have to use it as it is in the guidelines. And we had some really good advice from Oscar that it's good to use some really practical examples as you do your calculations that are perhaps a little bit more difficult to grasp for local producers. And I just wanted to reiterate also that in the estimation of the profits that the enterprise can expect to make per unit of the product. And I don't know whether you remember, but I told you yesterday that you should calculate either one half or one third of the selling price for this dependent on whether the enterprise is going to be mostly engaging in trading and producing or whether the enterprise will be about some kind of value-adding and transformation. I just wanted to reiterate that this is really just an estimate to get a rough idea. It's not an exact calculation and it should not be regarded as better used as that. And then we briefly touched upon but we ran out of time to talk about the cash flow projection. And we were saying that this is really a process that takes time or a calculation that takes time to understand, but it is really crucial. And we're going to talk about that this morning. Okay, now I'm going to stop sharing my screen because I would like to have a brief discussion with you to see whether there are any points that were still unclear in what we talked about yesterday or whether there were perhaps any light bulbs that went up, lit up yesterday after a training where you thought, oh, this was a really interesting point. I really would like to talk about this again. Any questions or comments from you at this point on yesterday's session? No, I just had a small observation, but maybe that's at the end of the EDP because what we have seen, we can have a discussion afterwards maybe, that the EDP that we use in the ME&D training is often not the format of the business or the plan that you can go with to the bank for finance. You know, the EDP has a lot of information and it's a planning document that has also financial calculations, but I think people have to realize that when you want to go to a business plan, it's by the financial institutions often still another document that you have to transfer this to. So I just wanted to say, I think you have all the ingredients in the EDP, most of the ingredients, but maybe not always all. And this has been sometimes an issue that we have seen whenever the entrepreneurs want to then go to a financial institution for the loan, then there has to be some additional calculations done or some additional work done. I just wanted to flag that and maybe also later we'll have a discussion or maybe the experience of Isabelle and Jacques on this also to deal about that. But maybe first to finish the whole EDP work. Yeah, thank you, Sophia. I was going to mention that once, if the entrepreneurs determine that they will need external financial support, there will have to be a step where together with the facilitators they review whether the EDP matches the criteria of the provider of the fund. Yes. I can see the hand up of Agbo Blip. Welcome. Hello, good morning. I think my question is related to that of Sophie. It refers to the drafting of the EDP. There are certain institutions that require other criteria such as profitability of the enterprise or the business and also funds recovery or recovery of the funds that have been invested. So these are the parameters that should be taken into account. The last presenter talked about the last intervention, I mean, talked about the fact that we could also resort to looking for an expert to help in this. Yeah, thank you. So that's what I wanted to add. Thank you very much. Yes, very good point.  Welcome. Yeah, thank you very much. My experience is that the entrepreneurs normally will forget costs for maintenance and repairs. They keep forgetting them and also the cost of replacing all items. So in the process of implementing an activity, then you find that the activity can easily come to a halt if they forget that. So we keep on reminding them that you must always budget for this and make it within your plan that theoretically you have to examine your machines and make sure that they are repaired and if they are all items, you have to replace the mother. It is very easy for the whole activity to come to a halt if you don't take care of that. Thank you. Thank you, Oscar. Thank you for reminding us of that. Yes, very, very good point. Please, Johnny. Thank you. I want to comment on this issue of this financial institution. They are really key because... Yeah, they are other sources of funding. So in the reality of the money is in the market. And the market, if we manage that, the producer organizations will sell the products in the market. This is really very good. Even if trying to avoid going to financial institutions, unfortunately, most of our producer organizations need funding for loans and so on from producer, from financing sector. And they have their own forms and formats to fill in. If the producer organizations go at the end of the process and will take a lot of time to translate what they have done in this enterprise development plan to the format that the bank have. I really encourage the countries try to motivate financial institutions to discuss together and to try to develop a format that the bank will accept and for example, motivating to participate in these trainings and trying to understand that they understand what we are doing. A very good example that we have is in Bolivia where the colleagues from Rural Invest, Rural Invest is how they have a software dealing with that. So everything, also you put the input, the information is a reporter but they do this training to the banks and so on. What we have managed in Bolivia with MAD and this Rural Invest, now the development bank of Bolivia is using this Rural Invest and also they are somehow applying this MAD. Yesterday I had a conversation with the colleagues of Madagascar, I appreciate that the network of women is here. Rural Invest wants to work on Madagascar in Madagascar but my position was to say, yes, we will support this if that is also with the MAD and working together with the producer organizations not separate parallel things because at the end this bankable business plan or they want to see is a translation. So something that you put on the table and allow you to talk with the guy who has the money. So hope that we could work together on building this. Over. Thank you, Johnny. That's a really, really good point and I want to make two comments on that quickly before I give the floor to Warhangi. The first one is that indeed the engagement with potential financial service providers very early on in the process is foreseen in the MAD process. And I guess you could also see the process not just as a tool to develop the entrepreneurial skills of the entrepreneurs but it's also about a process of engaging strategic partners along the way. It looks like Isabel would like to come in. Yeah, okay. I just wanted to finish that. And of course, as Sophie was also saying the MAD toolkit contains a template for the enterprise development plan but that's not to say that this is what they need to use. So if you can already foresee that there is a possibility to get funds from an external final funding partner and they have concrete requirements and criteria then of course you should work towards that. I think what is important to highlight is that the EDP really covers the areas that the entrepreneurs need to understand about the strategy of the business. So that they should keep in mind even if they use the criteria by the banks. And on the rule of invest software, I also agree that it's a really interesting software to use and but I do think that there is a step before that. And as you said, Johnny, it is a translation of the enterprise development plan into calculating software. But in order to use this, the entrepreneurs really need to understand why are we doing these calculations? What are they for? And this is what MAD is perfect for. So I don't know whether Isabel would like to add to that. No, not really. I think you covered exactly what I had in mind. And one thing also as experience, what I saw that the financial institution being a rural banking, et cetera, et cetera. They have themselves, let's say they're facilitators and when they can participate in meetings or part of the training in phase two, for example, then they can provide the format but also they will help the people to do the calculation. That means the local people won't have to do themselves the break even points or some of the more complicated calculation. The bank facilitator will do it together with them and show them the use of it. So that they can relax a little bit on not feeling all the necessary forms and formats. Thank you, Isabel, for this additional information. I would like to give the floor to Wahangi. You're welcome, please. I'll give you the floor. Thank you for the floor. I would like to add something. Through experience in Madagascar, the institutions or the financial system adopted I mean, it depends on the amount of the project. So I should not forget that we have financial interests requested by the financial partners. So here in Madagascar, we identified three types of community credit systems where the micro financial institutions depending on the volume of the business. And then we also have the traditional banks. And then we tried to develop our first systems that is to put in place our savings and credit system or go straight to the microfinance institutions with which we have negotiated. This is a service that we offer to our members. So we negotiate favorable conditions or preferential conditions for our members. So these are securities, the interest rates because currently in Madagascar, the interest rates are very high. And with our small businesses that we want to create it becomes a little bit difficult or very difficult actually to access the formal funding given by the microfinance institutions. I'm not talking about the big banks for the time being this is completely out of question. We cannot access. So for us, we are working with the two systems. So we help the organization, the producer organizations to come up with a clear system that they can manage themselves or we guide other members to the microfinance institutions that with which we have negotiated some favorable conditions in advance so that they can make it slightly easier for the organizations to access funds. Yeah, that's what I wanted to share. Thank you so much, Varangi, to give us your example of the type of service that you provide to your members. And I think that's really useful also perhaps for other FFPOS to hear that this is indeed a very important role that you can take on. Sorry, I can hear the French translation in English, the French translation in the English channel for some reason. I'm just gonna switch it off. Yes, so thank you so much for this, Varangi. I could see, I think Jose was first, please. Greetings to all, though. Just to add on what Madam Wan has said on the issue of a financial system in Madagascar for farmers, it's very difficult for farmers in Madagascar to have access to credit, particularly for the young farmers and the women as well. That's why we came up with a system so that we can ease access to credit. There is a JVC group, apart from those, beside those, we also gave training to farmers on financial management, so we help youth to understand how to manage their activities, and also we train them how to have a mind of an entrepreneur. Thank you very much, Jose, for adding also the point that of course there is the opportunity or the option of starting small and perhaps starting with your own savings and credit group. And we're sort of slightly moving into gender items that I was going to talk about later, but yes, thank you very much for this addition. Please, Oscar. Thank you very much, Kata. In Kenya, we have used both the Rural Invest and the MAD. Actually, we didn't care first. We have got some projects using Rural Invest, one project using Rural Invest, and the rest of them use MAD. But Rural Invest is normally for small projects, I think between $10,000 and $50,000, yes, dollars. Above $50,000, then you need a bigger, you need a methodology that is going to be very clear in the way you do the calculations. But for Rural Invest, I find it good for very small projects with farmers, but the MAD is quite versatile. You can do this for, like we have got one group that has gotten funding from financial institutions based on the enterprise development plan that we developed with them. So really also the problem with Rural Invest is that it's so much dependent on the staff. You don't have the staff, you can't do it. That is why I don't like it. You don't have the staff, you can't do it. The facilitators have to be well trained and then you spend a lot of time training the facilitators. But for the MAD, from my experience, is that you can train the local people to be able to do some of this work, do the data collection, the market surveys, and that becomes quicker. So that is my experience with the two methodologies. Yeah, thank you. That's really interesting. Thank you, Oscar. It's great to hear someone who has used both and has experienced with it both, with both of it. Wonderful. Any other, yes, please, Jack. I just wanted to add to that. First, we have to do all the calculation for the MAD. Then it helps the leader to be able to discuss with the bank or at least to know how much money they need. And then they have enough power then to bargain with the bank. When you go to buy a house, okay, if you go to the bank and say to the bank, I want to buy a house, the house could say, I don't know, I don't understand what you want to say. If you go to the bank and say, okay, I have this much money, the cost of the house is this much, I want this money. And these are my guarantee. Okay, then you can discuss with the bank. And MAD is some type of tool that helps the leader to collect all the information and to discuss with the people who are trying money and to discuss with the people who are willing to give or to lend money. That's all. Thank you. Thank you, Jack. It's always, you always have a way of putting things in very clear words. Thank you. Anyone else who would like to have, who has a question on yesterday still, before we move to the cash flow projection? Okay. So let me start sharing my screen again. Right. Actually, before we move to the cash flow projection. So just a reminder, we're still in phase three, and we're still in step two of phase three, where the EDPs are being prepared. I'm not going to talk about the breakeven point because we don't really have time for this, but it's, it's also something that the, the banks will usually calculate for the entrepreneur. So this is not necessarily a calculation that they need to, they need to know about, or understand fully, or be able to do it on their own. So if we have time at the end, and you want to ask a question on that, we can talk about it, but I just wanted to talk now about forecasting profits and losses. So that means adding up the different sources of income and analyzing how they're spent. And this calculation should be projected for the first and second seasons or years of the production. And it's, it's a useful budgeting tool that also allows the, the entrepreneur to review the records of the enterprise, of the enterprise at the end of the period, and compare their projections with the actual income and spending figures. So the profit figure is obtained by calculating the difference between the total expenses, the total costs and the total revenues or incomes over a specified period of time. So the total expenses are fixed costs, appreciation costs and variable costs for a production target. And the total revenues include of course income from sales. So let's move them to the cash flow projection. I was wondering whether anyone could tell me what this is good for? What, what do we use? Yes, please. Just one point on the previous table. Yes. This, this projection on profit and loss is also used to, to as a planning tool. That means what about if there is no profit, they do all this calculation and the profit is not there. So they will use this result to actually review the strategy and their plan. Maybe they have to reduce their cost and they will go back to revisit their planning at that time and, and see how they could save some cost at least for the two first years. And, and so as such, it is also a planning tool, not just a projection for projection. Yeah. And all the, all the tables are like this actually, especially this one in the cash flow. That means they will play with the elements to go back to their plan and make it actually profitable and make it also easy, easy for, for the management of the cash for the cash flow. Okay. Thank you for this important addition. Yes. So then going back to the cash flow projection, could, yes, please, Oscar, are you going to talk about that? Yes, I just want to say something on the focus in the profits and losses. Sometimes I've noticed that the end up in us will always think that if you start investing in an enterprise today, you'll make money today. So that should be made very clear to them that you cannot start making money from, from year one. You may go year one, year two, and you start making some money in your three, year four, year five. But sometimes they have some very high expectations that immediately we start doing this activity. We are going to make money. And it's not true. And that's why we calculate this for two years so that they are able to see the difference. Yeah. And sometimes I go even three, year three. Yeah. You have to show them that really you may start making money from year three. And there are a few things you need to look at your costs. Which costs can I reduce so that I can increase my profit margin? What production systems do I need to look at so that I become more efficient in my production system? All that postings have to come in. And they have to learn this experience in year one, year two, sometimes year three. So from year four, they'll start making their money. Year three or four, they'll start making good money. But they should not expect money immediately. Yeah. You have to lower the expectations. When you are discussing this with them, you have to lower the expectations there. Yes. And indeed these calculations will help them to also visualize this. Yes. Yes. Yes. Please. Thank you, Oscar. Please. Thank you. And I want to say all depends on the turnover. Because when it comes to cash flow or to cash flow, you have to understand it more detailed at the previous table. It means that the cash flow is done maybe monthly and everything depends on if you have a short term or long term activities which can be done in many years. So this will help you to understand how much do you need as cash flow so that you can start your activities. I think that this is the most important point here. Yes. I think you're completely right. So the cash flow projection informs about what funds are needed and when to set up and run the enterprise until it starts to become profitable. And up until now, all the calculations were done for an enterprise running at full capacity. But as we have also heard from Oscar and others, the enterprise usually does not run at full capacity at the beginning and it takes time to start up operations and to start up the business. But during this time, there will be expenses and supposedly very little or maybe even no income at all. So the cash flow projection is a calculation that will help to identify what are the funds needed to set up and run the enterprise until it's profitable. And it will also indicate when these funds are needed. And how much and when profit can be distributed. So it's, again, as Waini said, a bit more details than the profit and loss calculation that we talked about before and that it really shows by month how much money the entrepreneurs will have in hand by the end of it or how much cash need they will have at the end of each month or for each month. So it will also help to estimate the needs for a loan and calculate the loan amount if that is necessary. So to do this calculation, the entrepreneurs will first have to imagine how much they will produce and sell for the first year or the first month. And Boahangi talked about this, that it's really about also imagining the your production level and how much you will be able to sell in the first year of first month and the second and the third until the company reaches full capacity. So the facilitator needs to really also provide guidance on the production volumes so that they're not over or underestimated. I would like to show you a template, a very simple template for this calculation. And I'm going to talk through it, but if you have any questions afterwards, please, we have some time to talk about this because we've also seen that in some of the EDPs that we have received, this was the calculation of the table with most of the gaps. So it's really important that we all understand how to do this. So apologies, this is not in French, but in the columns you will see a description of the items. And then the first six months, one column per month. And you will have here the costs for small equipment, building, machinery. Then you have the fixed costs per month, the variable costs per month, a total of the costs, which is A. And then you have underneath the sales per month, which is B. And at the bottom you have your cash needs, or if you have a surplus, you have cash in hand. So that's the sales per month subtracted from the total costs of the month. So the way the entrepreneur should go about populating this table is using the numbers they have calculated in the previous calculations. And they will start by inputting all the list of all their equipment costs and variable costs in detail. And then they could add if they have any cash, and this is not listed here in this table, but they could add to the income of the sales per month if they have any cash that they may have had from the beginning to invest in their enterprise. And then, as I said, they subtract the costs from their income and sales or cash in hand, and we'll see whether they are in plus or minus at the end of the month after these calculations. So a positive balance shows the maximum money that the entrepreneur can then keep in the pocket for the next month. A minus means that they do not have enough cash indeed in that month to run their business to pay for their costs. So they will need to either adjust some of their costs or the production volume, or they will need to borrow or get some external funds. So any resulting cash amount at the bottom of this table is then reported in the next month as cash in hand, which will be added to the money they have on top of any sales they may have made. So what kind of adjustments could they make? The fixed costs don't really allow a lot of room for play. So those are usually fixed. But the variable costs can be, of course, played with. So you can adjust your production volumes. And equipment costs can also be adjusted. So instead of buying machinery, for example, or building new buildings, you could rent for the first year. So please, I can see your hand up. Yes. After you finish, I would like to talk. I would like to take the floor. Thank you very much. I would like to add something. In the fixed costs, if you invest, this is the total cost of investment that we'll have to put on the cash flow, because you cannot buy a machine that you are going to pay a monthly. If you have to buy a machine, you have to pay the whole amount. Also, I'd like to add that at the end, we need a line where we are going to calculate all the cash flow, monthly cash flow, because this will help the total cost of cash flow so that you can start your enterprise. So I'm thinking we need to add one more line where we are going to calculate everything that you have as cash in hand, monthly. That is A minus B. Yes, but then you have to calculate A minus B plus C minus D. After that, you have to do A minus B plus C minus D. You have to see the negative amount of cash flow. Maximum. Yes. Thank you very much for this addition. As I said, this is a very simplified table. I have another example here. Let me go to the next slide. Here, this is only in English. I don't know whether it is visible at all because it is quite small, but you can see again the six months. What I wanted to say is that this table is of course the result of the process. You have to imagine this table empty and for the entrepreneurs to start populating it in the order that I have just described. Here they have already included, let me find my pointer. Here they have already included a start-up capital including a loan, which of course they will need to calculate still through this table. You start without this. You start with whatever you have in cash in hand, but here they don't have any cash in hand in the first month. Imagine that this is empty. You will fill this up later and then you will add all of your equipment, fixed costs, variable costs, any interest that you might have to, sorry, the interest will come later. This is on the loan. This is again, imagine this empty.  Then all of this is, so this is deposit into resource management fund, deposit into social development fund. Here for the first months they say they will not make any of these deposits yet, but they will in month six they will pay towards those funds. They calculate the total expenses and the total cash that they have in this case, they didn't have any in the beginning and they will come up with minus. Then they calculate, okay, so this is how much we would like to then take as a loan and based on the loan that they will have here at the top, they will now have some cash in hand for that month after they have deducted all their expenses. This cash in hand, they will then add at the top of the table for the second month. Here they still don't have any sales, so the total cash they have for that month is still the same that they had at the end of the first month. Then they will add all of the costs as they've done before and they will arrive at a final amount of cash in hand at the end of the second month, which they will then insert again at the top of the table for at the beginning of the third month as the cash in hand and so on. At the bottom of the table, they can see how much money at the end of each month they will be able to have in hand. Is there anything that I have forgotten to mention here or said incorrectly? Is it Ben and Jacques? I can see Oscar's hand up please. Yes. I think that is quite clear. In Kenya what we did with this, sometimes we gave an outlook for one year for 12 months. Especially what remains in the files of the entrepreneurs. We gave an outlook for 12 months. And that made them understand more clearly that throughout the year what variable costs were they expecting to invest and all that. But when you are doing the business plan we limited ourselves to six months so that the table doesn't look so big and so messy. But sometimes we took them over a longer period of time after 12 months so that they can really have a bigger picture of what happens in the business with all these costs. And that's exactly how you go about calculating them. You just do one column at a time and then you enter the cash at hand and you move on like that until you finish. Thank you. Yes. The table should really be done at least until the cash needs at the bottom is equal zero. For the whole processing period. Yes. It also depends on the type of product you have. Sometimes you have seasonal products and I mean so you cover only the season and it could be one or two season in year one. One or two season in year two but the season may be three or four months only because of the type of product you are producing. So the lens of what you want to cover in the cash flow projection. Yes. It's depending on about the product and also if you want to have an overview, a longer overview as Oscar mentioned. Thank you. Thanks Isabelle Jacques. Did you want to add anything? Yes, maybe. Please. For me. When I work with the what is the problem I try to show to them is that they have to be clear when they start their business what they will do in the first month and to be sure they have to money enough money to start this first month.  If you put startup capital at the top or down or whatever that's not a problem. What they have to understand is that it should be clear. If they don't have the money to do the first month they have to close. Then maybe they can try to find money elsewhere. And that's the way that now when you start the problem of looking at the money outside the money they don't have. And then the discussion starts among the villagers or with banks or whatever. That is the first thing I wanted to add. And one thing that is important also that we don't find very often in other calculation like this is that there is a deposit to management and there is a deposit to social funds. And these two things are very important in ME&D because that's where you start to include environment protection and all what is related with environment. And that way also you include what is related with social development. That's what I wanted to add. I hope it's clear. Thank you. Does anyone have a question on this? This is your chance last day of our training. Yes please Oscar. Also sometimes to just help in clarifying especially on the sales. You may ask the entrepreneurs what about if we double the sales here? You must also inform them that as you increase the quantities produced then this course will go up. Like the variable course and all that. You can play with those figures just to show them that this variable course will change depending on the level of production on the level of sales and all that. We can play with these figures just to create clarity in the mind of the entrepreneur that as you increase the sales that means you have done more production then there is going to be an increase in the variable costs and that will have an implication on your cashier at the end of the month. Yes, correct. Thank you. Are there any questions from anyone? Yes please Jack. We cannot hear you. You're muted. You're muted. Now it makes work. So you can work on the fixed costs also try to figure the fixed costs by for example your amortization. You don't need to put every month. You can put at the end of the year or at the end of the second year in case. Then also you can in your fixed costs you can set the first month. The manager will not be paid and he agreed to be paid on the second month, two months. Okay, and variable costs also you can adjust in different ways. Payment of raw material, you can have a discussion with the raw material producer and say okay we cannot pay you the first month or even the second month but we pay you all after three months. So all these things have to be really discussed in details and put on black and white together with the villagers and also the raw material producer, the service provider and the real real plant detail so that everyone will know where they go. Thank you, Jack. No questions. No more questions, comments. Okay, good. So yes, so all in all I just wanted to summarize that the cash flow projection helps the entrepreneurs think about really the details and understand the importance of working capital to for the survival of the enterprise. So with all these calculations done, the entrepreneurs can now prepare their financial plan so they can, as we've already said, they can calculate the startup costs and capital needs for operating expenses for at least the first three or four months as Jack has said and so they can estimate the amount of funding needed to set up the enterprise based on the sales projection, the amount of funding that should be set aside to cover initial operating expenses and the amount of capital already available and the amount that remains to be found. And based on this, they can calculate their loan needs. I'm sorry, again, this is now translated into French. So this is again year or month in the columns and this is the cash need balance for the months that is reported here and where the entrepreneurs can then put in their own funds or perhaps funds from partners. This is the total of that and then they will see the remaining funds that need to be found and where they could be found either through friends, through a project, through a bank and so if they decide to go for a loan through the bank and that is a possibility and then the bank will of course determine the repayment schedule and the interest the entrepreneurs will have to pay monthly. There is a tool included in the field facilitator tool kit and how to calculate interest rates but this is usually done by the banks anyway. Okay, if there are no questions at this point on any of this, I would then move to the third step of the third phase which is it says here the entrepreneurs identify training and assistance needs but importantly this is based on the evaluation of their enterprise development plans. So they've prepared their enterprise development plans and now they need to evaluate and eventually adjust their plans. So this is also the moment where the entrepreneurs identify any support needs that they might have or training needs and I just wanted to start sharing for a second and ask you because we're really interested to hear how has the evaluation of the enterprise development plan happened within your own context? Who did that? Who was that done? Were there any tricky parts in that process? How did those discussions go? I would like to hear from you please. Someone perhaps who has not yet spoken this morning. Sorry about the background noise, there is some construction going on. We're quite a good number today. Would someone perhaps like to reflect on this? If you remember how did you go about once the entrepreneurs have drafted their enterprise development plan? What happened next? Thank you, Smikata. There are small interruptions here so I can't hear exactly what you say but I guess we share about the real context when we work with MAPL to making an EDP, right? Yes, I'm sorry. I did not understand exactly what you were saying either but what I wanted to ask is how was the EDP then evaluated? Was it evaluated? And how did you do that? Please, Tuan. Yeah. Hi everyone. To answer about your question, I think to evaluate EDP, first of all, we work with the MAPL to make sure that the EDP completes with on a table and follow the process of MAPD training. And second is that we have to consider seven plans in EDP to make sure to make sure all aspects in EDP follow five criteria to be considered carefully and also make sure the farmers have the risk plans and risk control solution for all their risk. Yes. And one thing I think is very important is we have to check EDP to create profit after the first season. We have to make a start-up. And how did you do this? How do you usually do this evaluation? Who does it? When we work with EDP, with MAPL we have to show the EDP that MAPL have done before and we follow each table and asked farmers so they will answer for facilitating to understand more clearly about their context and also more understand about what they consider or what they make sure. And farmers will explain very clearly. Yes, I think we will check together. Yes. Okay, great. Thank you very much for volunteering to tell us how you do it in the Vietnam context. Is there anyone else perhaps who is brave enough to unmute themselves and talk to us this morning about how they have evaluated their enterprise development plans. I can see Oscar's hand up. I was hoping perhaps someone else was so good. Please, Oscar, please. I'll give my experience last. Don't worry. I'm not sure we're going to have any more volunteers this morning. Okay, please Oscar. Yes, Jacques, yes. Okay, sorry. Jacques, did you want to say something? I just wanted to say that there is a real problem of evaluation of EDP because as a trainer we get some EDP sometimes from you. And when we go through this the document does not mean that nothing is understand. That means there are a lot, lot, lot of problems. So I think before sending the EDP to Qatar or to anyone or to prison there should be a really, really strict evaluation. Thank you, Jacques. Yes, I support that. Please Oscar. Yes. Normally after we have done the first draft drafts we will again call for a meeting of the entire FFPO group.  Looking at the five areas of enterprise development first of all what we do is that we ask the data collectors what went wrong, what went well during the exercise, what were the experiences and lessons learned. Then after that you find that you have broken the ice. We start discussing now the enterprise plan with a view of looking at it and you want to determine where there are gaps. So you subject the entire plan to them. It can be our half a day activity. But you are going to get them on all the areas of enterprise development how do they understand the enterprise the business and all that. Then you try to look at specific areas where you think there are gaps. Let them also identify those gaps and inform you I think we have a gap here you may need to fill this gap and all that. That's what we do basically and in just a half a day meeting you finish all that you go through the plan systematically one item by another and at the end of it you will find that if there are gaps then you may ask again the numerators to go back to fill in those gaps then after filling in the gaps later then again you will be subjected to them. It's a two-step process. The first one you identify the gaps with the group then the data collectors will go back and get the information that is missing and then when you fill it in again you take it back and ask them do you think it is now more comprehensive than it was before? I think that is the simple process that we go through in Kenya. Thank you Oscar. Thank you for letting us have an insight into the process in Kenya. Please Isabel. What Oscar described is the way to go I think but it implies and that's what I think is a key point to address. It implies that the facilitator who will facilitate this EDP assessment participatory assessment with the local people will really master the topic that means we'll know perfectly what should be there what could be the potential gaps in advance. It's not so easy exercise actually because this person who will guide it or will facilitate it should have an overview of the whole process which is condensed in the EDP. I think that's where maybe we see EDP which are not very well done because it lacks maybe well-informed facilitation by the facilitator. And there are also contexts which are actually where the people are under pressure because for example you encourage many many people to start their enterprise but you say for example but we will give seed money to start enterprise to this much that means for example 20 we have seed money to start the enterprise for only 20 so we will take the 20 best EDPs and this is very actually scary for the local people because what about those who won't have the perfect EDP and in this you can see very frequently that the facilitator has a key role on that that there is a tendency for the facilitator to push or to do even sometimes EDP instead of having it done completely by the local people. So these are let's say practical issues that can come up at this stage of the process. Thank you Isabel please Clifford. Good morning. Actually I have a question with regards to the question of evaluation I would want if anybody could help because I want to know when you are doing the evaluation who exactly is responsible for the evaluation is it that you are looking at the groups evaluation of the entire EDP or the facilitators perspective of the evaluation or you need someone outside to conduct such an evaluation I don't know what is the best or who is actually responsible for this thank you. Thank you Clifford that's a very good question and I would say that responsible for this is the facilitator with the entrepreneurs should review the enterprise group in that case should review together and evaluate the enterprise development plan really it's about making sure that the entrepreneurs have also understood what all of this is about but also the facilitator to check are there gaps in this EDP do we need to go back and perhaps verify some things and as their name says they should facilitate that process but there could also be an element where you ask for example entrepreneurs or entrepreneur groups to review each other's EDPs and they can comment on it and they can come together in a workshop and say look we didn't understand what you meant here so it should be a self assessment it could also be a peer assessment but ultimately yes it stays local the responsibility if you know what I mean. Thank you. Oscar did you want to add another comment? Yeah on to what Isabel said that you need a very experienced person to guide the process of evaluating the EDPs and normally within our business development officer who really assists us to do a lot we just ask him to assist us to do an independent evaluation of the EDPs after we have done them and normally that's very good quality check so you need somebody very experienced you just to understand how it follows and all that but you don't need an external person to do it you just need the people who are really well trained in the methodology so that they are able to guide you even if it comes from outside that person has to be trained in the MED methodology another person may not understand what you are doing. Yes and I can also see that there is a very clear role here also for the FFPO business incubation unit staff to review the EDPs that the facilitators will provide them with from their entrepreneurs and from their enterprise groups I think this is a really important service that they could also offer to their members to help them evaluate the quality and consistency of their EDPs I just would like to quickly share some criteria for evaluating let's see I can share my screen again for evaluating the EDP sorry I didn't finish my sentence there so I've listed here very briefly the main criteria that the evaluation needs to cover so is it complete are all the questions answered are all the boxes filled in is it accurate are there any miscalculations are the same units used consistently and from the few EDPs that I've seen this is quite a common problem is the data entered in the appropriate boxes so is it accurate and then there is an evaluation around the strengths and weaknesses is the investment proportionate to the production level are all production costs included is the project environmentally friendly so these are the sort of reflections around strength and weaknesses and then the information should ideally also be cross-checked with perhaps similar entrepreneurs, enterprises or similar projects so is the cost of the equipment that is proposed in the EDP is the project that is proposed in the EDP similar to the the average cost that you find in that area in that district similarly for the raw material costs are there matching the average costs in the area where the enterprise is located is the productivity proposed for the enterprise in line with local productivity so these are the sort of cross-checks that one could do and then of course the facilitator with the entrepreneur will come to a conclusion is this EDP ready for further consideration to start the enterprise and then also perhaps to use this to apply for external funding or are there elements that need to be reviewed still and as I said this could be self-assessment and a peer assessment and the facilitator should agree on a timeline for these revisions that might need to be done if you find that there are some some gaps still so there should be a clear plan for the entrepreneurs by when they should have done these revisions so it's not just let go into eternity okay I've already started talking about some common mistakes and I've listed I've listed them here on two slides there are quite a few things that can go wrong so what could be a problem is for example that the marketing strategy is quite vague so this will give you an indication as a facilitator that maybe the market survey was incomplete there is some missing information or it might look like the information was copied from previous or other tried enterprise models so of course this means that the entrepreneur did not do all the calculations and all the strategizing him or herself or there might be some detail lacking on the resource management which might signify that the entrepreneur might not have a good understanding on how he or she will be able to maintain a sustainable resource based for their production or perhaps some of the risks were not fully analyzed and estimated and solutions found for them so this is of course a risk management problem or some of the production costs are incomplete which means that the profits that you'll actually make will be lower than projected because you haven't calculated all of the production costs similarly with labor time being unrealistic or the units that you've used that they've used in the EDP are not coherent so sometimes they would use liters for honey sometimes they would use jars so there needs to be coherence there these are some very common errors continuing on that list it could be that the production process is not really detailed enough which gives an indication that the entrepreneur hasn't perhaps grasped all of the different steps that need to be put in place to actually produce what they want to produce or the calculations that are made in the enterprise development plan do not reflect the information that was collected in the second phase what also often happens is that the capacity for equipment is calculated wrongly so the machines that are perhaps the entrepreneurs envisaged in buying are often often overestimated in matching to the actual capacity of what they want to produce at which they want to produce sometimes there is a mix up with fixed and variable costs so that's not often clear sometimes that's not clear the selling price that was determined by the entrepreneurs is widely different to the averages for that particular product in that region so they will find it difficult to actually sell anything or the costs that they have included do not match the averages in the area so this is again something that I've just mentioned before do I have another slide on mistakes no do you have any questions on the evaluation of EDP still we have about two minutes before I'd like to move into phase four so we have enough time to cover that okay so let me move then oh sorry I did not rename this of course this is phase four and not phase three so here the different steps of phase four so by now the entrepreneurs or groups of entrepreneurs have identified their EDPs and the EDPs have been evaluated and accepted and the business incubation unit and the entrepreneurs at this point should have an understanding of what the training and assistance needs sorry there was one step I forgot to talk about I'm just going to I'm just going to talk about this because we didn't talk about extracting the training and support needs from the EDPs so this should be done also in collaboration with the business incubation unit and there is a key role here for the facilitator to summarize the results of the EDP preparation towards this unit and need to also really check then all of the five enterprise areas so is there perhaps other training needs on how the entrepreneurs will manage their resource base or do they have particular training needs on how they will they will pay back to the community and the different ways that they could address the social aspect of their enterprise are there particular technical training needs that need to be addressed or are there perhaps gaps in the marketing strategy some training that could be that could be implemented there but also perhaps the opportunity of joining up with other groups to combine forces for their marketing so this is a sort of bird's eye view of the little gaps still in the enterprise development plan that could be addressed by either training or finding strategic partnerships and then importantly also the EDPs will give information about the startup costs and the financial plans and any results in capital needs or perhaps any gaps that the entrepreneurs have in keeping financial records and bookkeeping so these are all the things that by looking at the EDP and doing the evaluation exercise the facilitator will be able to draw out and help to link up with the service providers for those particular needs so then coming to phase 4 so as I've said by now the entrepreneurs have been identified their EDPs have been accepted there is an understanding of the training and assistance needs and the objective of phase 4 is to support the entrepreneurs during the startup phase of the enterprise and often I think this is the phase that is most most disregarded or shortened but it is one of the most crucial phases indeed because entrepreneurs need a lot of support in the beginning so I just wanted to do a quick check now and I'm going to stop sharing because I want to see your hands up and I just would like to ask you to raise your hands if you in your own context have been able to provide and I'm not going to ask you to speak I just want to raise your hands so I can count how many of you have been able to provide follow-up support to the entrepreneurs that were supported up until now through your organizations could I please see your hands up for those who have been able to provide follow-up support so I can see four hands up is there anyone else in this group present listening who could raise their hand in signalling that yes they have been able to support enterprises through their start-up phase once the EDPs were prepared again I'm not going to ask you to speak just please raise your hands so I can count the numbers and keep them raised or if you don't can't find the raise the hand but remember to put it in a chat so we have a record okay that's I can see five hands up that's that's Mila yes six hands please Jacques did you want to say something raising your hand seven even yes okay so as you can see that's quite tragic that's a very low number of people who can actually had the chance to follow up the start-up activities of the entrepreneurs but it is critical yes yes I can see Sophie asking questions okay well that was just interesting to see perhaps also for you thank you very much you can put down your hands and for those of you who have raised their hands you have had this experience of following up with entrepreneurs what was your experience in this how was this organized were there any issues that you faced in this issues for the entrepreneurs or issues for the facilitators interested to hear Akbar would you like to to recount how you managed to follow up what did you do what were the activities and following up with the entrepreneurs Mr. Akbar from Tobu thank you as I've said we supported the to start a new activity they were producing coffee and cocoa and after that they wanted to produce soap with the of cocoa and coffee we did help them to elaborate their business plan and this is a new activity they didn't have any experience so we noted that they would need training so we put up the appropriate stuff for the training and after that we had to do the marketing and we were able to help them to have access to market and to help them to promote their product for access to some network we did market study before the beginning of the activity so that they understand what to understand the market so that they can market their product this is what we did when it come to the training promotion we gave them more technical skills so that they can start their business so this is what I can say thank you very much thank you if I understood correctly the follow up was focused around the marketing aspects and the sorry I said that I can't hear you the marketing aspects and and the the commercialization so the the bringing the products to the market and receiving feedback did I understand this correctly and some training indeed so that they can understand techniques for production okay thank you very much and and what were some of the issues that you have encountered was that an easy process or did you feel that maybe the facilitator had some difficulties or the yes indeed this is an activity we didn't know so we had to identify the trainer so that we would be able to support the farmers when it comes to production technique fortunately we were able to overcome this challenge and we managed to bring our trainers these help us to spread the technology needed thank you so you had some difficulties identifying initially training service providers for the technical requirements of the entrepreneurs okay I could see Yvonne's hand up before did you want to recount us your experience Yvonne and following up with with the entrepreneurs during their startup period during the pilot period sorry yes please okay thank you because I don't know why the microphone of my that problem we can hear you I think the EDP yesterday and today we talk very very important and very difficult when we work with our FNEPO as the plan straight with you at the beginning when we intend to training for them we invite the leader or team leader of group and facilitator not only at province and even district and commune to come to learn and most FNEPO they very very afraid of calculation by Microsoft or by yes this is why the facilitator at this stage very important how we can help them to fulfill almost the table it's very important let them understand and let them to follow us it's the first and the second thing we also ask trainer one or other trainer how we can simplify the table but the partner and FNEPO can understand what they had to calculate like today we talk about yes and let them to understand that if they want to start the business with their business strategy they have to understand the fixed cost or variable cost and how they can get the income after 3 months or 6 months for example like that let them to understand and make the confidence for them first and when they understand they can come back and after training we also organize some training like the MAND but in the community with their member not only the FNEPO for example they have 10 or 15 we organize also and they can involve and they can understand about the process very simply but they understand how to build the money or investment when we talk about the cash flow or fundraising and even that VNEPO at different level we understand about the scale of business of this FNEPO how they need money at the beginning this is why we guide them to establish EDP not only EDP we also guide them to raise proposal for small grant from FNEP and from other fund from VNEP fund or from other local fund this is why step by step they have the confidence and they know if we start the business we can find some funding from different resources and we also provide technical training for them for example for processing also it means that they do not very they not only understand about their EDP but they know about equipment what they should invest and the technology and how labor they have to choose some participant for their processing for that when they have the confidence they can start with our facilitator at the local even sometimes they suffer with problem on legal problem license for processing we also have to organize a round table discussion for local authority understand about their EDP also because EDP is for the FNEPO first for internal but sometimes the local authority it understand when their expectation they can provide more support for our FNEPO it is why I think EDP will not only evaluate for the business and for FNEPO but when we organize a round table discussion as a commute the local authority also understand and also understand as contraint of them how they can support for business for FNEPO and I think it is very important and we would like to work with them not only for the training but after training follow up this EDP very important for facilitator. Thank you very much Thank you Yvonne Yes indeed very very important and I think if I can summarize very briefly what you said is the sort of two part role that that VNFU a producer organization plays in supporting entrepreneurs and one is building their own capacities in certain aspects but then also starting to build bridges with strategic partners so both are really important aspects in in this phase and actually throughout the whole MA&D process I can see ACPE's still up but maybe this is an old hand and I could see from Oscar you've put in in the chat you provided follow up support by mobilizing FFPU membership, collective production improving quality standards of products or around how to improve quality standards collective marketing financial access I guess an important question for me is at which point in the startup and the trial period are the facilitators present with the entrepreneurs how does this usually happen in your experience and what is best Thank you very much but I think the early stages of the enterprise development implementation of the EDP is very important and the facilitators have to be really very close to the FFPUs and that means that in the beginning you have to ensure that the entrepreneurs are setting up this activity very well you have to start very well and the most important thing is that the facilitators have to develop a rapport a very good rapport with the enterprise groups with the FFPUs both their leadership and the membership so that they are able to ground this issues as they continue implementing the EDP of course in our Kenyan experience is that most of this you will find that people are doing individual production and because of the small scale nature of our farming then the production levels can be very low and that's why we at the very beginning we say how can we mobilize these members so that they revolve around a particular product and after revolving around that particular and this is an activity that is done together with the leadership of the FFPUs and the facilitators so that we are able to get more members able to join so that they are able to bring these products together if for example is Honey coming from a catchment then you get that enterprise group that is mainly dealing with Honey and then they start bulking this and improving the quality as time goes by the most difficult part I've found in the entire process is issues of quality and access to markets quality and access to markets like Honey that is produced locally it cannot just be sold in the supermarkets in Kenya you have to get what you call the Kenya Bureau of Standards stamp so that you are able to access that market and normally we used to forget that cost in the beginning there is a cost attached to it we used to forget that cost and then the evangelists say we have a cost implication on this so nowadays we remember that and say that we have also to train them bring the kept people to come and talk to them on the quality standards and what a quality standard entails then they have to send these samples to the Kenya Bureau of Standards for them to get what kind of quality they have for that product and it is really assisting them to penetrate the urban markets for them to be able to sell their products so in those processes you find that the facilitator is very key especially also when they are doing linkages with other stakeholders especially on either capacity building support the facilitator will play a very key role plus the group leaders to be able to identify who is the the right person to come and train them on those are the areas that I found the facilitator is very very important thank you Oscar I would like to give the floor directly to Clifford okay thank you I want to also share what I think the follow-ups should be one of the areas in developing the the EDP is to consider the marketing component at the time at the time of of who is that sorry somebody is fetching water so they are pouring water into a container that's why sorry okay so one of the areas is the market facilitation component that is the aspect that the facilitator needs to be there after developing the EDP one of the key things you need to support the enterprise with its access to market and with the access to market what we normally would do is that you identify the potential market outlets and then do it back what linkages back to the the EDP group now when you identify this market outlet what it comes to what you get to understand is that you know the quality parameters that they are looking for you understand what requirements the market is looking for and then you are able to do this kind of backward linkage with the EDP to support them with the necessary capacity building and quality training to be able to meet and access this market opportunities that existed so in our context what we would normally do is to look at this kind of approach assuming you are doing a product on organic baobab or organic share you want to look for a company that is also interested in buying these organic products then you work it out doing this backward linkage back to the EDP so that you can support them to implement the EDP some of the mistakes I have seen in the past is that mostly we develop the EDP and assume that the groups are going to be able to implement it by themselves so we don't do the necessary followups to ensure that those areas of capacity gaps we are able to support them by strengthening them to be able to deal with those challenges so those are some of the things I think the facilitator is still very critical in the pilot stages especially in facilitating the market linkages and also providing quality assurance to the companies that are going to be working with them and once we have this done I'm sure we have very good results as well. Thank you Thank you Clifford yes indeed being able to match the quality standards required in your market is an essential job of the enterprise development plan or the enterprise itself and ideally that research has already happened also in earlier phases so the actual plan of the enterprise is developed around the demands of the market segments they have identified as targets but then of course once the first production round happens and the first samples are produced it's really important to check with your buyers whether the quality matches their requirements and then they need to be some adjustments made perhaps in the production process which will have implications on your entire plan indeed might have implications on your entire plan but yes those are the sort of adjustments that importantly need to happen in that trial period and that's based on feedback from the market thank you I can see Tan's hand up yes thank you thank you very much for very interesting discussion for every phenomenon we think that supporting entrepreneurs or AFPLs to implement their EDBs are very important work for us we are not simply a tool but also it's really a realize for FF implementation so because our main beneficiary is FFPLs so they are they are doing with their fresh and farm for sustainable or not it really depends on their business plan because through working with FFPLs we understand that after training it's just very very early started but the important thing is how to support them in implementing as you know that we finish MAND training in 2019 but as of now we still ongoing to follow up and supporting normally we try to create a chance to support entrepreneurs or AFPLs to regular have a meeting so that they review their operation activities and also their business plans so through focus group discussion or round table discussion never like Ivan mentioned many issue we realize that the FFPLs they really deal with many difficulties in their implementing their EDP for example the capital for production and also marketing skills and product certification and the reason why the interference of FFPLs to support FFPLs activity is very important and we understand that if we only let the FFPLs like they are going alone it's very difficult for them that's why in the working we also try to mobilize different stakeholders to support them like connect them with enterprise and also we regularly organize like trade fair to bring them to different areas to introduce their product and sell their product thank you yes that's really impressive commitment actually the EDPs were prepared four years ago and they're following up with the entrepreneurs and the enterprise groups and it just goes to show that indeed there are many many problems in the beginning and if our entrepreneurs left to their own devices they may fail which would be a big risk for them mostly so something to avoid and good if there is support available indeed very crucial and before I present my slides I was wondering whether there was anyone else who would like to perhaps recount their experience please Jacques I have been in charge of supporting villages to settle their business from A to Z and I have been training around maybe 50 people with the intruders so we went to the EDP total EDP while training the villagers for the EDP we invited the agricultural department forestry fisheries business bank the guy was in charge of the district everyone we invited and we tried to keep them all along we started to follow up later we invited also the head of the department or the head of the director of the national parts because we were working in the background of the national part and we made exact plan with the villagers of what has to be done each month by each of them and we asked to the department each department to say when they can also with the villagers we gave incentive to the department so that we are sure they will be following up so there was a technical follow up from A to Z by the department even if you put in forestry fisheries each of them their own role and they were little given incentive for them and also what was important is that when we went for the marketing there was some one from the project whether we could find that was starting from the first consignment that means preparation loading going to the place for selling unloading discussing with the buyer getting the money taking back the money distributing the money to the villagers all this one down from A to Z and then for few years after that I don't know how it came but anyway we are very good followers from the institution because they were involved from A to Z they were very happy to take some and to understand what is the EMB we got also very good followers for the we can say banks there was some few money and for example the head of the director of the national part was very happy and he followed whatever he could because it was a way for him to protect the national part so he was really taking care that all these guys were working and destroying the national part usually I don't know the job and they stopped the destruction of the national part so that's almost what I wanted to add thank you Jacques that's a good joke it's good to hear for example of where you were actually able to follow up in so much detail but also to mobilize these really relevant partners and important partners who will remain in place once the project leaves and those are the partners that the entrepreneurs need to be linked up with perhaps I could share a few slides and then we can come back to some questions would that make sense now anyone with an urgent question right now let me share this screen again sorry there is a bit of background noise okay so we're still on this slide which I honestly called phase 3 but of course it's phase 4 so I just wanted to talk through the steps the individual steps because now we've sort of been talking about the whole of phase 3 the whole of the startup phase but I just wanted to very quickly go through each step with a couple of very text heavy slides sorry so in the first step which is all about let me just go back about the entrepreneurs obtaining their financial resources as estimated in the EDP and of course I mean all of this is fluid it could be that step 2 happens first or step 1 and step 2 happen at the same time just to say that there are some topics I suppose around which the steps are organized and the first one is around the financial the financial needs so as I've said the facilitator here places an important role in understanding and analyzing the financial needs and providing also a link with potential service providers and there could also be NGOs who might have some project funds to support the startup of small enterprises and help in the negotiation on the support so the service provider approaching service providers for financial services should also be based on the findings of the service conducted in phase 2 where the financial service provision landscape was mapped out by the entrepreneurs with support from the facilitators and they should really also the facilitators should encourage entrepreneurs to think about the importance of starting small so not necessarily relying on external credit because it might be difficult to get or it might take a long time to come through so there might also be some training necessary here around how to manage different funding options that they might identify for themselves and we've talked about this point here around the EDPs meeting the criteria of the financial service provider and there might still be some training necessary on bookkeeping on maintaining a bank account and what is also crucial and touched on this is trying to be present at every important step during this trial phase so in this case in terms of financial aspects try to be present during the first sale because often entrepreneurs are tempted to use all the money that they may receive from these sales and perhaps not putting aside for operational costs or for the repayment of debt so try to accompany them also in this step so in the second step the facilitator will then and this is all about the other capacity needs or training support needs so the facilitator should work with the entrepreneur so their groups the business incubation unit of their the FFPO and training service providers and Tang and Yvonne have mentioned very good examples of where they link up with different they try to provide the bridge between the entrepreneurs and different training providers and Jacques also mentioned that and bringing on these people on board early on in the process and explaining to them what MA&D is how it works and understanding making them understand benefits of it will be very beneficial in establishing strategic partnerships so there is a review here of course of the list of the training needs and establishing links with training providers as I said and this could be in any of the five areas of enterprise development and you have mentioned different aspects here and marketing or technical aspects but it could be resource manager it could be in all of the five areas and of course a review should be done of any training needs assessments if any new technology when any new technology is adopted by the enterprise so this is an iterative process I'm sorry there is a lot of text on this slide we're nearly through step three and this is crucial and we've talked a bit more about this on just then this is when the entrepreneurs start their activities at a pilot level so we said it's important to start at a small scale and the facilitators assist the entrepreneurs in testing the strategies that they have developed previously in their enterprise plan so there should be a work plan set up which very clearly stipulates the work plan in terms of supporting the entrepreneurs in this first trial period or pilot period and this is also what Jacques was telling us about how they did it in Madagascar this should really list all of the activities the person who will be responsible the skills and the knowledge required which partners to involve in this the date and the duration of this follow up activity and the facilitator assistance needs so where is it, what is it that the facilitator will provide in terms of support for each of those activities and then it would be really good if it was possible for the facilitator to visit the enterprise regularly so ideally once a month during the pilot period and the pilot period can last up to a year even and they the facilitator should have some level of confidence around what the enterprise is about so they don't need to be an expert in that particular production process but they should have some basic understanding of is this actually the right equipment that is being used are there enterprises who produce similar things using the same type of equipment or are there some adjustments that need to be made so with some confidence about what the enterprises is actually doing and in each visit all of the five areas and we keep coming back to that it should be screened by the entrepreneurs with help of the facilitator and yes of course it helps the facilitator and also with the entrepreneur the entrepreneur with the facilitator sorry the other way around to visit similar functioning enterprises to sort of understand how they how they work and then what is also a good thing to do is for the facilitator when they visit the enterprises to check the raw material storage so try to understand not really coming across as a policeman but trying to understand how is the enterprise faring and we've also talked about how it is important to support the entrepreneurs when they start their interaction with the buyers so the negotiator might the facilitator might be more confident in negotiating contracts so they should try to help also the entrepreneurs in this particular phase and this activity ensure that the first batch the first production batch is actually sold in the market so that the quality can be checked and you could receive feedback on the sample from the buyer there might be some corrections needed in the process based on this first batch or the feedback that you get on it and there might still be some additional studies necessary and your training based on the feedback what else did we not mention yet yes it's also really good idea to record what happens in this pilot period and to organize a sort of workshop at the end of it to review the results and prepare a work plan for the first year of production at full capacity so step 4 is then really about building skills for entrepreneurs to be able to monitor their own systems so once the facilitator is not present anymore so the facilitator should help them establish a simple monitoring system for the enterprise and they should assess their performance at least once a year but in the beginning it's better to do it twice and it's also of course important to still keep monitoring all of the five types of enterprise development and do some kind of sport analysis so look at the strengths and weaknesses any new and upcoming opportunities or any threats that come up in any of these areas and then of course set realistic targets for the next cycle okay this was my last slide so do you have any questions or any comments on just this last the fourth space that we just talked about in the last 45 minutes or so please Tan Yes, hi Kata and everyone I have one question when the FPPO conducts implementing their EDP in the real context they have two monitoring and they learn for another EDP can you share with us can you share with me how we can help them monitoring effectively because I wonder about the criteria for monitoring and how to make it effectively in the real context yes, that's my question That's a good question could I perhaps pass that question on to Isabelle or Jacques What I would say is that for the enterprise themselves the key let's see the key figures about their plan become the criteria also to assess do they what's the evolution compared to their plan of their target in terms of sales etc so this is internal and the problem is that they should keep record of that that's the main point actually that usually people don't use to keep record on their performances or whatever enterprise and if we want to compare and to help them to monitor their enterprises so the main point is to make let's say choose some of the important criteria that will be easy for them to check there is not one model I think every project every institution should develop its own model to see what is important for them is it only the market data is it only the enterprise performance data or is it also according to their broader objective like resource management related to the or is it also on social aspect impact on women etc etc so I don't think we can develop one model but each institution should see what are the most important criteria for them and develop their own small system very easy format for the entrepreneurs or group of entrepreneurs to really put their data in in case of time did you want to say react thank you miss Isabel and can you share some example about the mechanism that they can they can make to for monitoring for mix to a transparency or fairness in the ring context yeah can you hear me yes yes so you are asking whether there are any templates or any methods that we could share on how to monitor the transparency within an organization yeah because they have to monitoring but in the ring can you some example or some problem that that FFBO can handle to make sure monitoring mechanism for transparency and fairness because they work together they work together they work together so they have to make make on of information transparency or fairness in on of the process can I please go ahead Jack can I try to answer okay if you want to monitor one enterprise first you go to look at the books the accounting book then you know exactly what is happening you know if there is profit or not you know if there is a loan in the bank and it's paid you know if the start is paid you know all these type of things then you know from where also is coming the raw material and you have an idea of if the raw material has an impact concerning the quantity that is the first thing you have to do the second thing you have to do you have to enter in the processing room and look if all okay the technical issue are well done if the enterprise is not dirty if they are losing missing if the workers are working well if there is protection for the workers if there is social security if there is all these you have to follow it these are the two main things you have to do at the beginning then you can check if the enterprise is running well or not the third thing you can go to add okay is that you have to look at the impact of the company on the environment and to be sure that the raw material that is used is coming from okay what the people are saying they are buying okay if it is really coming from the sustainable resources then once you have done all this you have to go to see the buyer and discuss if the entrepreneurs vote really okay good final product or not or if there is a problem on this if there is a problem you have to report to the entrepreneur that's the main thing I think you have to do to monitor the enterprise I hope I am clear thank you and Isabelle that's why they have to record all the information follow the EDP thank you thank you very much thank you Todd for the question is there anyone else who has any questions at this point either on face but now we have 10 minutes left on the whole of MAND this is your chance please Mr Uru Gnan with regard to the training starting from the first day to date I my at a personal level I think with regard to the market development we need to look at the raw materials after looking at the raw materials you need now to move on to data collection at the grassroots level and after this we need to do some monitoring that is how we are going to get the necessary information to help us grow the enterprise to a higher level because if you look at the agricultural businesses there are lots of problems and therefore you need to take a lot of time and see what we have carry out analysis on the collected data so that you can have sufficient information and then when you do that you going to look like we have lost him now you broke up but yes thank you indeed it's a the resource space is just one of the five areas that is really important to sort of keep in mind and scan every single time that the entrepreneur assesses itself and its business and the the facilitator helps them do that but it is without the resource no enterprise and great to establish the training needs along the way as you company the entrepreneurs thank you very much someone else who would like to have a final comment or question I have perhaps a question that I could ask you and that is really this idea of the producer organization the FFPO the APEX FFPO business incubation unit and the role that this can play in providing services around MAND to its members and how you could see how this could be sustained this service how could this be financed and this is really a question to you I think this is a fairly new idea that we're all playing with and some of you have already established certain services for your members around business incubation and business development but I wanted to hear maybe a bit more of your ideas and experiences on this and also welcome Sophie Johnny if you're still with us yes please Yvonne yes can you hear me yes we can okay thank you Kata I think through our refreshing training of MAND we also learn a lot from the past training and implementation and maybe for the coming time I think when we work with FFPO we focus on training and capacity building for FFPO this is a very very traditional way for every project but now through the FFPO and I think that's the in another hand we can raise the environment how FFPO can implement their EDP or their business as an incubation and first effect the organization of farmers is very important because why when we organize training of MAND in Vietnam we select and FFPO leader and team member but also some facilitator not only a province facilitator but even district facilitator and through the training of every step they understand about MAND at home process and after that they not only support FFPO but they also thinking more and more opportunity how they can connect with other stakeholders for the business for FFPO is very important for business incubation because almost for farmer they live very far from the city after one training or two training or three training they still not have the confidence enough this is why if the effect organization do not follow up with them I think they even they have the very potential product potential resource nature resource around them but they do not know how they can start and with whom step by step and this mean that the rather than discussing from the beginning from the commune and district or province level bring them not only the voice of farmer can talk with the local authority and relevant stakeholder and local authority also understand about the difficulty of FFPO and they can provide more support more more environment of policy for our FFPO this is why I think that if we elect the FFPO to go alone they are so difficult and maybe sometime after some business their business broken down they will do not take the action more but if we go with them and so problem in the each step I think step by step we will build up the confidence and the capacity for FFPO is very important and through this the effect also have the staff have more idea more capacity for services and after process they also change the capacity of staff of FFPO also and I think it is very they also learn from FFPO not only provide services but they also learn and they can share experience for other FFPO not only in that area of FFPO but in other province or other district I think it is very important Thank you I really like your last point about this the two way of exchange we don't have a lot of time left but I would like to also give the floor to Mr Uro Nani Thank you very much for the floor I would like to thank Qatar and above that I would like to reiterate our thanks on behalf of our fellow participants even though I would not discuss we have always been requesting these refresher causes so we are really thankful that you managed to get some time for you to conduct this refresher course for us this helps the participants really to have good notions to help the enterprises or businesses so I would like to request you to send us the modules that you used in this training if they could be sent to us so that we can reuse them we would be very thankful thank you very much Thank you very much I will put the we will send you a link to all of the presentations of this training and I could see Sophie send up one last word before we say goodbye thank you first of all thank you so much and the team was really a great refresher training with good discussions on your question how this link for me is indeed a tool for producer organizations to support their business but for me it has also another function the beauty and the versatility of this market analysis and development because it's also a planning framework for managers for project managers for facilitators it is a screening tool that helps you to see where do we need to support these enterprises so it gives you with the five areas and with these different tasks and phases it really helps you to systematize and to have how to so you as an apex organization let's say as well the apex producer organizations who want to support their members you have a member organization coming with an enterprise how can you help them with this tool which is overfueled this planning framework you have once you get the M&D in your head you will very easily find and see where are the problems where can you what are the gaps in the business that comes to you and you can also then identify the support that is needed and this M&D is like for me a basic tool for business incubation role that apex for organizations can take up because it helps you really to understand and to help to plan where are the gaps and where are the it's really this analytical screening that you would need to do to identify the services that your members would need and as an apex organization you can have all the knowledge and all the services in your organization but then you as an apex organization then can find out like I hear from Yvonne and I know Vienna view has done this and Vienna very well to go and look for support and training capacity and all that with other institutions and government organizations over the private sector and so on capacity M&D is giving you for this business incubation I would say so yes so it has multiple purposes so thank you again and I hope this was helpful as a comment Yes very useful indeed because I think you do have that birds I view that you know we don't all have that and that's really good to see the potential use of M&D so this is it thank you so much everyone for participating being present sharing your stories asking questions being focused it's been really a privilege to spend this time with you and I'm sad it's over even though it was a lot of work but I really hope to see you to see you also in person at some point further down the track