So this will be the Ken 101 video I wish high and lonesome would be here to On camera with us, but yeah, no, this isn't a custom. This is that's actually what's called a epiphone It's an epiphone not a Gibson. It's a prism plus so it's all epiphone parts or I'm sorry all Gibson parts pickups Everything in it quail splitting, but a really thin thin thin neck, which I love so yeah So yeah, I'm gonna bring not so in and it looks like there's already 90 people in here.  Props to Keith do cuz he's the one who really kind of put this in my brain today to get this going. Let's see Where's it? Where's my buddy here? There we go. Yeah, this is a Brins paint not mine I don't know much about paint. What's up, dude? Wasabi. How you doing? I'm good You ready to drop the verbal pipe bomb?  Yeah We'll try to keep Try to keep you know facts from educated guesses separate perhaps. Yeah Yeah, I think a lot of times a lot of times those two things got get conflated Yeah, you know what people know versus what people think, you know Yeah, so I think that's a good idea Let's see firstly, of course, like you just said, we'll start with the disclaimer A lot of this is going to be theory and conjecture based on educated guesses based on breeding based on talking to pretty much everyone involved in the in the Kim lineage and sour lineage from from back in the day till now It's it's a lot of it was put together by CSI Humboldt, you know A lot of what what what I've I've discovered and he's discovered and not those discovered all combined into one grand Ultimate theory. However, I don't want to speak for him. He can always speak on his own I offered him to come on here, but he's always too busy So it's just gonna be me and not so and we're gonna try to cover it as best We can as accurate as we can and with the best intentions because earlier someone wrote me and it was this it was around it was this morning and He was just asking, you know, like is it what is, you know, Kim D. What is what is came a what's all this stuff? And and I thought about it was like there really is no one place People can go as a resource to really get a good idea for what these lines are what's behind them and the history It's a lot of piecing together from different forms stuff and even then there's a lot of stuff It's just not out there because people are scared to step on toes And I think it's been long enough that no toes should be stepped on Yeah, I mean it it's also true in a lot in a lot of ways where You know The truth that the truth survives a lot better when there's where there's little fame or rep or money involved Yeah, because there's no reason to alter it and you know as soon as anything becomes, you know Famous or you know, there's money involved or whatever else then all of a sudden, you know Sometimes there's battling amongst people as far as like who did what and when and how and da-da-da-da-da and everything like that So yeah, you know, it's uh, yeah, and chem is you know chem's this this this topic has been debated now for What when did the forum talk start Matt like oh six? Yeah, somewhere around there is when people start Yeah, so probably like it's been it's been publicly debated now in various ways and various You know forms for 16 years or something like that. Yeah Which is pretty incredible when it comes to like a bunch, you know a small group of like hippie kids just partying and then All the sudden fame happens Yeah, exactly dude, so let's start with the start with the beginning The chem 91 deep the dog bud Bag seed as it were all right, so maybe maybe I'll start at not the beginning but a beginning right and then we'll go back to the beginning so My my start in the cannabis story as far as chem dog goes comes in the late 90s. I had I Just I'd recently found the Mendo perps Us and I'd grown a couple crops of it and I had I had a friend Who will remain nameless simply because he doesn't really like fame, but I've previously referred to him as Staten Island and You know as we became friends He gave me the chem what later be quick was called the dog at the time the dog and the super stuck Right. Yep, and we became like really really good friends for a long time And so he used to tell me a bunch of the stories about the chem and how all that came to be and this is you know This is late 90s early 2000s as all these stories are getting told so That's kind of my aspect into the camp. Yeah at the time Other than him And myself he had given it a couple years previous to giving it to me He had given it to the guy who's known on here as skunk VA You'll forgive me if I if I pause for a second because I'm trying to like instead of just saying all these people's names I'm trying to use their internet handle, you know Which is a little different because you know, you don't ever call them by these things in person, right? Yeah But you know, there was a few people there was a couple literally probably like four or five people in the state of California that had it Yeah, right and then You know, you can fast forward to the forums where Skunk VA came out and sort of the chem dog 101 which Matt reference began to come out and all kinds of people started debating various aspects and But for a while say from the time that it was created until it's fame as it were You know, it was really only a small group of people that kind of had it so probably the the easiest way to say it is In the summer of 1991 There was chem dog was seeing some Grateful Dead shows and At Grateful Dead shows I've said previously. It was a really great place to buy kind bud Especially in the early 90s. It might have been one of the only consistent places To buy kind bud at the time, right? And so he was I think he was 17 years old at the time and he bought some kind bud from a guy named Joe brand and His and his kind of his sidekick pee bud Right the story diverges right after that because he either found Supposedly 13 seeds in that kind bud Yes, or he or he got P-bud and Joe to send him one more batch of something of something. Yeah, and he found the seeds in that bud But needless to say the reason why people call it deer Creek for younger people is deer Creek is one of the venues in The I'm getting confused by questions The chem that Jason the chem that Jason King wrote about was my chem that was my weed I grew it and I gave him I even wrote him out a list of what to say and it did not make an Accurate transcription into the book sadly. He took some artistic license But anyway, you know, so So chem dog takes it home, right and he has the seeds and he sprouts four or five of them or one No, he sprouts he sprouts a few because out of that comes the chem sys and The chem 91 okay, and I will say about the chem sys that my buddy from Staten Island remembers it But the problem is chem sys chem a chem a through D Yeah, so, you know Two of them survived. Yes of the let's put it that way of the first of the first batch of seeds popped To became named Okay, and the other ones probably ended up getting lost Everyone that I first met everyone called it the dog Most of the growers that had it my buddy from Staten Island Skunk VA etc.   So most of us just called it the dog Yeah, it was the dog right and So, you know it so chem dog had the dog and he was growing the dog for a number of years and It became kind of popular in the East Coast in certain circles and he was really militant about not giving it out Right Because he didn't want to get cut off Right he had yeah, yeah, he had sort of a trap market this and that no granted You know as the case may be you have to realize that like at this particular time. He's you know 17 18 19 years old at best. Yeah, right? We these are grateful dead kids, right? So my buddy from Staten Island it has been trying to get it from him and Chem dog wouldn't give it to anybody on the East Coast okay, and My buddy moved out to Sonoma County in Northern California just north of San Francisco and he wanted to be closer To the Grateful Dead Jerry Garcia Jerry banned the Bay Area hippies, right? so he left New York and Chem dog because Dude was on the West Coast and 3,000 miles away agreed to give it to him If as long as he promised to never ever give it to anyone back on the East Coast Yeah, he didn't want it to spread anywhere in New York or Massachusetts or anything. Yeah at the same time He had this he had this weed That he smoked with these other hippies at some Jerry Garcia shows And these guys flipped out over it. They adored it.  Yeah Right. That was about 1993 yes, or so. No, yes So that's that's kind of that's kind of where like the the West Coast kind of comes into it Yeah, he brought it out to the West Coast And then that was 1993 and he was pretty much the only one growing it for a few years Yeah, either one of them on the West Coast actually Nobody else had it. So it was basically like one small garage And you could get either one of those strains if you happen to go to like a Jerry Garcia show at the Warfield or anywhere in the Bay Or anywhere in California. He would likely be there with ounces. Yeah, slinging ounces for 400 bucks an ounce, right? so you fast forward a couple years and it's 1995 and Jerry has a heart attack and dies and Skunk VA decides to come off dead tour And wants to grow some wheat And so initially my buddy gives him the super skunk. Yeah, which is dude's taking some Polaroids and He's posted him up on his IG. So there's some I think some 95 96 Polaroids And let's let's let's go ahead and delineate here that between Start start pulling it the VA super skunk The one just try to refer to it as that because there might be other super skunks. Yeah, sure Yeah, that's the other hard part too is that all these other terms besides dog and super skunk Came about on the internet when people were trying to figure out what the hell we had so Va va skunk Massachusetts super skunk chem 91 Skunk VA cut I don't think any of those things really even existed until the mid 2000s Yeah, in terms of in terms of nomenclature in terms of names. Yeah. Yeah, right to us It was like the SS and the dog Yeah, you know, you had super skunk and dog and the only reason why I'm really telling the super skunk thing For a minute is just because it ties into how home he got it And brought it west.  Uh pee bud was another one of those people So it was joe brand. There was a lot of people that went to shows and hustled various things to Um to make it to the next show Yeah, you know, uh, and so you know, um And uh Don't get caught up in questions. Don't get caught up in questions. Don't get caught up in questions. Yeah, don't worry about that Yeah, so we'll cover them. So he um, so he got you know, so basically what it boiled down to is that there was one guy From 1993 on that had it on the west coast Yes Right and he promised he was he's always been kind of stingy about cuts Uh, you know, he kind of saw what was coming Uh, you know, it might have been a lot of years off at that point But he saw that there was a bunch of uh shenanigans that was going to happen And so he was always pretty militant about getting trading cuts and stuff like that Um, I didn't really trade cuts with them. I just kind of by My sheer accident became like a super close friend of his Yeah, and that's pretty much why I got them Yeah, you know, we just traded everything back and forth because we were so close, right? um and so, uh That's kind of the start now. Here's an interesting thing My buddy from Staten Island smoked both the dog and the kemsis back then But he didn't bring the kemsis west because he thought it was far inferior Okay, he didn't want it. So we know for sure that the kemsis was one of the earliest cuts Oh, he yes, he to my knowledge the kemsis and the chem dog or the dog Are the two cuts that came out of the first popping of seeds Okay, and they existed And he remembers smoking them in You know before he moved west and in 91 92 Um, you know, he you know, so he I have you know independent confirmation Yeah, right that those both those things existed. That's that's good to know because even I I had no clue if Because it's always been said that kemsis was a part of the chem a through depot And that's where it gets confusing. No, uh, he he actually he and he thought it was ugly and he didn't like the high Makes sense. And so he didn't he didn't bring it west. He had the opportunity to bring it west He didn't want it Okay, right You know and so that doesn't mean it wasn't good or whatever. It just yeah, it was one dude's opinion, you know But it was ugly Yeah, you know and it wasn't as good and so, you know Um, so anyway, so you know the the story of chem is that uh, you know, what became known as You know chem 91 and sys came out of that first 91c pop. Yeah right um and uh You know it it it goes off it goes off on tangents because it ties into sour and all these different things But we can keep it You know, I don't know. We can keep it pretty close. I'm doing my best to not look at questions But I know it's just crack it's cracking me.  I mostly have I'll say this I know a lot about what happened, uh on the west coast Simply because I'm good friends with him and I'm good and I've known the other people that had it for forever now, you know Uh And you know, we also traded a ton of stories about things Before the forums really existed Yeah, and before it was ever talked about or before we had any idea that like Anything of this shit was going to be anything important. Yeah either Right because that's what happens with a lot of famous weed Is that nobody has any idea what they're doing is going to be important or people are going to care Right, so it's not like everyone's taking meticulous notes in case Uh, they get famous later. Yeah, these are we are partying hippies. Yeah and take smoking weed We're taking lsd. We're trying to chase chicks. We're tripping around. We're doing our thing Circle jerking all of it. Yeah, that was more like I think your You know so to speak but To each their own so You know, but yeah, that's that's kind of what and you got to remember too for kemdog I mean kemdog was literally 17 years old when he got these fucking seeds Yeah, I don't know if anyone I don't know how old everyone who's listening is but like when you're 17 18 19 You don't have very much together The fact that dude was able to throw together some lights Especially in the early 90s when there was no forums. There was no information. There was two or three books you could buy And some friends, you know, I mean the tech was pretty basic Yeah, it was not easy to get information back then it was not easy to learn Like most of the time you learned you did whatever someone who knew who was growing around you was doing if you knew anyone Yeah, I didn't know anyone so I literally started from books um, so you know he uh Yeah, and it was totally illegal. There was no medical or anything like that obviously but uh You know, that's how it started it started with with some teenagers And bag seed from a dead show So as a result of that, um, you know, uh The what it is exactly will will kind of be an eternal mystery Yeah, and well, uh, kind of yeah, um, you know, and I mean at least at this point It's at least at this point that we're speaking about it's complete mystery on what it is Yeah, and you know, and I should also say too that um they Kemp dog wasn't friends with p-bud or joe brand or anything like that like he what they weren't in the circle Of crew they were just like someone that they bought weed off of at a dead show something here and there Right. So those guys had those guys had no Idea for years and years and years that anything came out of that weed sale.  Stop it. Stop it There's all kinds of there's all kind there's all kinds of rumors that have come out after the fact Right. Yeah, but the bottom line is that some older partyers who sold weed for a living Okay, who are constantly buying and selling different types of weed on dead tour Sold the sack of weed one day and then 15 years later found out something came with it Yeah So there was no like calls back like hey that thing that we are you is really special What what like there wasn't any kind of information exchange like that Going and then and and to me. This is where kind of like, um Well, I guess maybe let's let's take it year by year. So let's get into the uh The cam a through d then I mean Or can be through d I guess if Kim sister because Kim sister is considered cam a if I remember correctly same thing I mean it, you know, uh So I mean you can say there's there's rumors I I was not, um You know, I was not obviously on the east coast and all this stuff happened Um, but I mean I you know, I I knew the various people involved And that's what I was told. Yeah, um, what we know for sure is that two Keepers came out of the first batch of seeds got you. Yeah That's what we know for sure And then let's get to so we've gone on about the 91. We haven't really said about what we think it is or anything We'll do that at the end. Um, let's do the the the d era Okay, so fast forward nine years Nine years nine years. Okay, right. Um, and maybe God I should I mean we I guess we'll just bounce around in time fast forward nine years and um He's got some seeds and he decides to pop some more seeds Okay, um, and he labels them whatever, you know a bcde You know so on and so forth. Yeah, and it seems like the one true keeper that came out of that was the d Yeah, okay, so um So there was the d Right and and at this point the story has has been That he found males and that he didn't find males based on what post you refer to In this yeah, like a lot of things. I've said before. I mean there's there's issues with chem dog in the sense that Um, not all of the things he has written on the forums can all be true Yeah, yeah, you know, and I'm not saying he's a liar because no, you may be wrong I'm just saying that like your recollection and this year versus how you write it matt year And all that type of stuff, you know and what you were doing and if you remember Right, um, because you know, I mean matt You know matt we've we've uh, we've chatted with some very old school cats And some of them have very poor memory on what they were up to Yeah, that's for sure. And that's that seems to be consistent among most older heads. Yeah None of them knew it was going to be famous or matter or need to remember. Yeah or need to remember So basically at this point we should say that i'm not exactly sure when the cyst died But let's just say that there was the the dog Aka chem 91 and then there was the cis. Yes, and then there was the d Yeah, so by 2000 there was um There was three cuts okay and uh You know fast forward, uh five or six more years And skunk va gets on the forums Matt would probably remember was it ic mag I don't remember which one he popped up on i think he probably seen ag he popped up on the forums talking shit about Uh cam and this and that and everything else and that's kind of where the skunk va cut came from Sure, the name because a lot of times back then You attributed a cut to the name of the poster who first talked about the cut Correct, and it was super common, right? Yeah, that was a very common nomenclature way of talking about things, right?  He realizes that there's a bunch of stuff going on about his stories I believe he started posting some versions of his events right around then and somehow P bud and joe brand find out it's going on and recently just so so everybody knows like they're talking about joe brand I recently talked to joe brand and we're going to do an interview But we've been having um trouble like linking up the times to do it. So this is being told with his uh Input in it basically so when we get to the one through four I'll start talking more about from his point of view how it went down as well. So what I believe happened is, uh um You know they uh, these people started talking back and forth And this was the first indication to p bud and joe brand that something had happened to some weed that they sold 15 16 years before yeah, right So and this year is 2006 2006, right? Yeah, and so um joe and chem dog start chatting or DMing or whatever the hell and Chem dog decides to give them force give joe brand four seats Yes, and they even they even named them the reunion seats. That's correct. Yeah, because it was the reunion because it was the first time These various characters had started chatting again. Correct after 15 16 years of not talking Yeah, right and so they were supposed to be Four seats from the original bag was how the story went the story went there were four seats from the original band So they got popped and they got creatively named one through four Since it was already a 3g. Let's do one. Yeah, they were they were named one through four. Yeah, um, so You know, uh, the forum era was a little bit different era In the sense that things were starting to get traded around a little bit more Shown in different rows different grows and different things like that and like I said my uh, um, my buddy who brought the clones out here was real stingy about trading cuts and especially um, especially that and so Uh, chem dog had made him promise to not really give it out beyond the tight circle And so he kind of held to that Yeah, right.  Yeah, and so I don't know where we want to go from here. Um, but Uh That's well, I mean, that's the rough story as it was told was that's the that's the rough story So as it was originally told now chem dog aka dog aka 91. Yeah, right Uh chem sys Those are the 91 pop Okay, some things were popped in 2000 of that the d survived and became known and famous Yeah, and then some more things one through four were popped in 2006 Yes, and those also became named and those also there's also started getting traded And this is where the story kind of where Where we ended up with the story when all of us started kind of researching it pretty hard is is From taking that story that we were told that they were all from the same bag of seeds And then growing them and over the years, you know, whether me you Caleb everyone started collecting these cuts and growing them out and seeing how that compared to The tail and that's where everything kind of starts getting figured out Over the years From joe brand to what he had as the chem one through four What the really was i'll answer this question even though you're telling me to ignore it the joe brand cut um came because uh Joe joe brand was a it was i don't know if he is was a hard part of your Right, let's just let's just put it that way. He liked to get high. He liked to party He liked to party on a wide variety of stuff And he traded people Um after he got ahold of the chem 91 He traded from icy collective, correct? Uh, no, yes Yes, no, no No No, so It gets it gets confusing. Okay. I'll okay. I'm telling from joe's point of view But i'll but i'll but i'll i'll go back to that so what became known as the as the joe brand cut Is joe ended up the jb chem. He started trading people Okay, the chem 91 for various cuts And lo and behold it wasn't the chem 91 So he sent people You know, some people called the joe b diesel some people called the joe b chem Uh, it was obviously maybe uh, uh jb 91 That's what i'm referring to though. He got the cut that he was trading from icy collective That's how that's how he tells okay, so so here's what we'll go. So I also know icy collective. Um, and he has a different version of events Yeah, so let's tell both So that's so why don't you why don't you tell joe's version? Okay, so joe's version is that um when he tried to get back The cuts he went to icy collective and icy collective sent him back A version of chem 91 that he thought That he may or may not have known was the real one and joe brand immediately started passing it out and trading it out so, uh Could be His uh, icy collective story is not that much different than that. Okay, so icy collective story is that um, he lived in oakland at the time Uh, and he'd been in tahoe and stuff too, but he um He had joe brand and p bud come out to his house Okay, and that was the first time it was an osu. It was it was a little bit after o6. I think it was right around that era um, but That was the first time that p bud and joe brand smoked the chem 91 Yeah, was at his house then they had never seen it. They they they make they obviously had smoked or seen The dog bud or whatever the seeds came out of but that was the first time they ever saw the famous cut Yeah, okay, and they had the one through four um and uh They had the one through four and they wanted to trade him Um the d and the 91 for the one through four Yeah, and he said no And he gave them the d but he would not give them the 91 Okay, now this actually I actually kind of believe his version of events Maybe I'll maybe I'll rewind a little bit. So because someone just asked where did ic collective get it We all got it. Huh? You already said that. I mean, we we all got we all got it from the same We all got it from statin island. Yeah, he's the one that brought it west um Uh skunk va got it. I would say not 96 ish or something like that I see got it in 97 ish when he graduated from high school Um, I got it in 98 ish So, you know, and that was kind of where it stopped So there was four people by night late 90s that had it in california, right? um so Um, so the brand had to get the cam 91 somewhere So that so I so I know where he got it Okay, so peba and joe brand were pissed that I I see would not give it to okay Okay, so they go to our homie csi And that's they gave him the one through the four Okay, because they were like the originators Of you know or part of the original story. Yeah, they got Our buddy to give them the 91 Then they would have had the original 91 they did have the original 91 They got it from calib 100 and calib and calib.  He used to he at that time He did a lot of opiates. Yeah. Yeah, okay. So he got the 91 He somehow lost the 91 And started sending out mislabeled 91 in traits. So yeah, so so he puts a the onus on On ic collective, but reality may have been just a mislabel The reality the reality is is that from what ic told me and I don't see any reason to doubt him He said he absolutely would not give him the cut Well, yeah, and then he definitely and then csi told me he absolutely did give him the cut Okay, so I I kind of think that's how they got the cut. Yeah, I don't make the most sense I don't know. Uh, I don't know how long Uh, joe brand had the real 91 before he lost it But when he started trading people and that was that was like my buddy from statin island And other people's worst fear is they didn't want people to start trade baiting it all over. Yeah, which is exactly what joe b and pbud started to do Yes, instantly except for everyone that got the dog from those guys didn't get the dog And you know what we didn't even realize how how off that was until I think our first real inkling of what had happened there was when bodys started making crosses with Um the 88 g 13 hash plant and then that's when people were like, wait, what is this cut? What is this weird cut? So you get you get into this thing obviously where You know, okay, so you have you have joe brand and pbud's version And then you have ic collectives his his memory of it and then you have calib's memory of it Right. Yeah, but what we know for a fact Is that these cuts started getting traded around amongst this little group? That's how I see and calib got the one through the four Yeah, right whether it was from ic or whether it was from calib or whether it was They had it for a brief time. Yeah, he lost it somehow Um, but he either was scamming people or just had a mislabeled mom And was and had just gotten it and was trading it to all kinds of people for whatever else he wanted to get for his garden Yeah, so he was blowing it out there.  We're not answering questions right now. Don't even look at them. Not so Don't even look at it. So anyway, um, you know, according to uh You know, and yeah, I mean that's you know the my understanding of it. Some people called the jb chem But um, I see collective said it was a diesel type and a shitty diesel type Yeah, it wasn't as good as maybe it was a diesel bag seat or something along those lines um, you know, and so there's this thing where Um, you know, this stuff ended friendships in a way like there's there's people that I have mentioned That don't talk to one another because of ego around this cut Yes, you know, um to this day, uh, you know, our buddy csi He didn't give it out forever And I think he waited even something like 10 years before he started publicly selling seeds Yeah After he got it and he still gets gets black for it. Yeah Or whatever. So it seems like um, what happened is so now you've got just so everybody knows you've got the chem 91 You've got the cis you've got the d and you've got the one through the four Yeah, so you've got seven actual chem cuts cuts I'm circling that family in any of you include the superscope Maybe I I'm just talking about like what supposedly came from the 13 seats. Okay We're just limiting to that.  Yeah, and he hadn't had it for a long time um, but When it started getting famous and scum fa started getting rep for having this cut He wanted it back Right. Yeah, he wanted to have the cut that everybody was talking about again.  Yes, you know Well, that's the basic human story of it. That's the basic human story of it Okay, is that there was a couple cuts from 91 Uh that survived there was one cut from 2000 that survived and there was um, there's two cuts from 06 that survived Yes, uh, the one and the four are still alive and verified The two and the three seem to be gone. They're dead. Yeah Um, you there's been some fake threes that have popped up Um, it's one of the issues with when things that didn't get traded around so much And they're only held by a few people You know and some of those people aren't the most responsible types Um accidents happen And so what we have today as far as I know Is the real 91 is alive. Yeah The cis is dead Yeah, and there are some s ones that came from the cis, but the cis is dead Uh, that's what chem dog told me and I no one seems to have it. So Yeah, um So of the of the 91 of the 91 pop the 91 is the only one that exists Yeah of the 2000 pop the d is the only thing that exists. Yeah, and of the 06 pop Um, the one and the four both exist Yeah Right and out of that, obviously there's things we haven't talked about yet like s ones and children of it and hybrids and so on and so forth You know, uh You know, so I don't know. I mean You know, that's kind of that's kind of the as far as I know um There's, you know There's four there's four living original chem cuts Okay, so now let's go back to What we think they actually are because I mean, I think this is what most people want to know Um, we all know the stories.  What was the dog bud? What was uh, What likely was it, you know, so let's talk about that some of some of what uh, so that's the that's so the The aspect around someone's talking three CSI doesn't have three No, he does just don't he shut up, you know, matt matt and I are both really good friends with dude He definitely doesn't he definitely does not have it. He had it at one point at a long time ago Um, he had it at one point. So, you know, what's what's the best of them? That's preference based I suppose Uh, no question yet. I will I will just I will just say my personal preference I think the dog and the d are two of my all-time favorite cuts not so likes the d and um You like to deal a lot You know, I do I do it's it's in it's in my top It's it's in my top, you know just the tip. Um, you know, and whenever I show people the d they're impressed by it Are they impressed by it? They are You know, they are impressed by it, you know, so let's talk about let's talk about the 91.  Yeah, I can't imagine that Comparing it to you'd have to compare to something. There's nothing to compare it to from so So you just so let's put it this way, right? Like I said before lots of people were on dead tour selling everything from burritos grilled cheese lsd We're right pants clothes Everything you could imagine to make money to stay on dead tour and to go see shows and to have a good time And to enjoy life, right? Joe brand and pee bud were some of the people that bought and sold weed on dead tour Okay, so they were constantly imagine you're on dead tour for several months, right? Just and there was three tours a year, you know spring summer fall Right, so you're on dead tour.   Yeah Right, I mean maybe if you only sold one or two strains because that's what you grew You'd know, but these guys weren't hust these guys weren't growers. They were brokers Yeah They bought weed and they took it on tour and they sold Eights and quarters and half ounces and zips to pay their way and to eat and have fun and travel and whatnot, right?  I know I'll say this Um, nothing that not the dog itself the chem itself and none of its progeny look Like the puck it to me if people that have a problem understanding that it's because they don't have a basic understanding of afghanis Like there are so many different types of afghanis and it doesn't it doesn't ever throw puck thinos Never a puck hash plant is so much different than kim 91 And i've seen so different lots and lots of phenos of hatch of hash plant children Yeah And none of them look like the dog. Yeah None none of them look like the dog.  The conjecture part is like is There's an aspect where you sometimes the plants tell you what's going on Right, uh, and you know, I've spent countless hours Trying to figure out What's what's in the dog? Okay, um and by breeding with it It gives you some clues Okay, so, uh, csi and I um Both think that there's a good chance that it is Literally an s1 or a bag seed Yeah, and the reason we think that is because when he s1s it And he sells s1s it doesn't have a very wide genetic base Right, yeah, it it throws a lot of different types of potency But it doesn't really throw a lot of different types of looks Correct, correct, you know, um the other thing too is that you know, The puck is short and squat and uh very branchy The dog is very tall and lanky They're totally two different types of bud structure completely completely different plant structure completely different bud structure Totally different leaf structure totally different terpenes. Um, you know, I think honestly it's like people are trying to shoehorn What it could be You know, yeah, um into what it is So one thing I've noticed about trying to figure out parentage over time The best way I've ever found to do it and it's not always it doesn't always work. So this is just a general Way of speaking but for chem 91 having no idea of the parentage. It's it holds true Is when you s1 it you're going to see those parental phenos you're going to see them And it kicks phenos that have the same bud structure in some of its progeny in the s1s That look like sour and sour to me is a typical super scum type structure.  Um, yeah, so What I can say about the I let's let's start this this way what I can say about the the dog Is that by modern standards, it's not particularly pretty Correct. Yeah, it's not particularly frosty It's kind of dark Yep And by looking at it you would think it looks way midsier Then most modern weed. Yes, but it has super rare potency Yeah, so as far as effect, it's an absolute champ You know, it can taste good Uh, it can't taste really good It can also taste just okay The potency is almost always there. It's really really hard to mess up the potency um You know and so You know we and and you know and so these name games happen, right?  It's gone by mass super skunk It's by western mass western mass super skunk. It's gone by skunk six Um, and it may only be two of those things It may only be super skunk and skunk six And western mass super skunk might have been a totally I mean I can say that you know my buddy who picked it up Uh, the guy told him it was super skunk. Yeah, it said super skunk on the label And later on we talked to the person who bred it by our friend johnny here And he said that it was a super skunk hybrid of sorts Basically what it sounded like is he was another kind of rainbow hippie type dude And he had some various skunks that he had gotten from nevel Uh, you know, um, and maybe sssc and he was crossing them back and forth to each other And the final thing he did was he crossed that hybrid he had into super skunk Yeah, and that's what became known as the super skunk that is probably like uh, itel said earlier probably In sour as a chem 91 hybrid I I mean I I believe strongly that it is I believe it. That's I believe I have and I I mean I have I have some I don't have exact evidence Um, I have some pretty strong evidence. I think yeah, but so So there you go. I mean now we have now we have That's kind of the story And you know it, uh You know, there's conjecture What I will say is that I find it very hard to believe That the chem sys The chem 91 the d And the one in the four all came from the same hybrid Yeah They're different enough that it's that it seems to me This is where this is where it would be amazing to have actual like Human-style dna analysis. Yeah, where you you know, that was the big hope of the company that won't be named Uh, his is that they would be able to you know, take these long running things and clear up these family relationships Um so far that isn't the case um, you know, I believe that You know these things the thing is is that people are talking about can we talk about some new stuff chasing ghosts? These aren't ghosts. Uh, these things are some of the backbones of modern cannabis I kind of said what we were going to be talking about from the beginning anyways.  There wasn't as nearly as many places to get things So what it comes down to is you know, um, a lot of these things that came out in the 90s Became the backbone and even if you don't Recognize them or have never had them. You've probably had tons of things that they're in Yeah And I well, let me let me throw this in there too so what When I when I when I research stuff I break things down I try to use like a logic tree like from, you know, philosophy logic like, you know, you learn in college um And we're still all starting on this premise that this guy that we know that sells weed That was running low on weed went home Kept some weed for a guy. He had only met once And sent him the same exact weed that he smoked in colorado or wherever was it that he had smoked it It sent him back The last of that weed and the weed that he gave him the first time didn't have any seeds The bag of weed that he had at home didn't have any seeds But somehow that bag that kem dot got had 13 seeds in it So there's a lot of lot of room for human error in all of this, you know So we've got to start it is a faulty premise from the beginning And and if you try to break it down logically you're like, oh Yeah, there's a lot of room. Yeah, Joe brandon p-bud. We're dudes in their 20s Selling weed to a teenager. Yeah You know, yeah, and that's kind of and the dude smoked the weed and they found some seeds you know, um, I So this is where we get to this is where we'll get to conjecture Yeah, right and we'll make some conjecture with facts But this isn't I said everything before and it was kind of basic because I just wanted to kind of give the timeline of Of fact of fact. Yeah, that's generally accepted Right. Yeah, we can kind of go into what we think Is in this stuff. Yeah So I tend to think And csi backs me up is um Is that most of the stuff out there Are hybrids of the dog or hybrids of chem 91. Yes, right? So you know when I People don't know this very well, but and I don't this isn't an insult and don't take this the wrong way but after After my buddy had given Chem dog the super skunk the super skunk was legendary for herming Yeah, okay.  Yeah, and chem dog called up my buddy in california and was raving about these hybrids That he had found after the super skunk had accidentally pollinated the dog And and just to inject this here. This is where I think jesus was born in this general And he so he He loved it so much and granite. He's only you know 18 19 at the time or whatever. Yeah He loved it so much. He started growing these hybrids exclusively Instead of the dog. Yeah in 1994.  Yeah at the time, you know Kim dog and my buddy from statin island swears that no one else on the east coast had it. Yeah He wouldn't give it to anyone on the east coast. So you start to get different people involved that start to claim different things at different times um, most of us obviously weren't there, you know, yeah, so You know it what are you gonna say about those type of things? Right, it's another one of those things where people start to create certainty On a series of accidents that happened when they were young and also partying Yeah, you know, and now they want to make it all intentional and You know, and so as a result You know, I can see in real sour. I can see the 91 in the super skunk Yeah, I personally believe that's the case Like, you know, Kim dog called my buddy and was raving about how much he liked growing the hybrids that had accidentally gotten made Yeah, and then he was filling up his rooms with him and that's all he was growing And he told him that in 1994 1994 is the year that, you know clop, you know That weasel and bondo and these guys are getting this weed that they're finding the seeds in You know, um So, uh, there you go As far as that goes, I actually believe That the d is a chem 91 by super skunk hybrid Yeah, I believe it very strongly um That would make d Either a sister to sour or if it depends on which super skunk was used because I know there were more than one In that I I because you know, uh, we did this project called the super dog where we tried to take The density and the potency of the chem dog And blend it with the the look and the frost and the flavor of the super skunk And so I you know, uh, my buddies from statten island and I worked on it for a number of years So I've seen a shit ton of chem super skunk hybrids Yeah, like a shit ton. I've known a lot of them and so to me Like I can just see both parents in the chem D Yeah, you know, can I prove it until we have perfect genetic testing? No It's just we we can never have perfect genetic testing unless we have the baselines, which we don't I mean, it's you know, it should be possible. It's it's not possible It could be possible like You know, like human dna. They could tell that, uh, you're not a sister. You're a daughter Yeah, we could we could see some relations like that, but we could never go back and say You know, but I'm just saying like from the from the from the 91 Eventually you should be able to tell her these sisters or children. Yeah from the 91 for sure Yeah, you know, because we at least have that. Yeah, right and so Um, you know the and the reason why I think that is because sometimes the D Smells like super skunk when you crack the jar I think that dead rotten body nastiness that everybody always halitosis that they always talk about That's kind of a rank skunk kind of thing. Yeah, the D Herms sometimes like crazy in week three and four, which the super skunk was famous for doing In the D's case, it's sterile pollen in the super skunks case. It was super live Yeah, but I I grew, you know, I still have the the chem the chem dog. I've grown it for I don't know 24 years now or something. I grew the the super skunk for 10 Um, I think that they you know, I think that the sour the base of sour is chem super skunk And I think that it's very likely that um, that D is pure A dog in super skunk and and the one that can that nobody ever mentions and I've been fighting To get people to give it its space in the family tree is jeezal, which I think is the pure super skunk Just an S mark. Yeah. I mean the you know that the jeezal is um You know, like I said the the super skunk through live pollen both early and late Yeah, people gotta realize that it definitely don't when you don't make seeds um after you have a pollination of You know of of shit it takes a good four to six weeks for that seed to become right Oh, yeah, right. So If you've got some late herm Unless you let that thing ride and ride and ride and ride You're gonna have immature seeds So there's back I don't I see I don't think jeezal looks more like anything at all like d and even in the s ones There's no d anything in it someone had mentioned that so I mean what I guess what I'm saying is is that The point I was trying to make is that for for chem dog and these guys to be pulling out tiger striped seeds at eight nine ten weeks A lot of times the s s was was pollinating them through herms two three weeks into bloom Yeah, and that we by week eight nine ten. They were ready. Yeah, right So it's very possible that jeezal is an s one of the straight super skunk. Yeah, and doesn't have any chem in it Um Oh my gosh, okay Well, no, there's some good questions now. There's big questions come up So we need to finish with with what the one through four are all that stuff first. So so yeah, so so to me the That's what I think the d is I can't prove it Um, I would bet money though I would bet money and how it breeds and how it smells and how it looks. I think it's a straight Dog s s hybrid. Yeah, I saw some people mention the one through the four Um, do you think it has some nl five haze in it? I think that's very likely After after seeing the one I think I think it is the quintessential example of a nl five haze dominant phenote In the chem one through four line like it's more it's very little chem to me. It's very nl five haze Yeah, and so, you know, there's there's an aspect to it where it's like I just like to say this because Once you get on the forums and once you start writing stuff And once you start chatting about things you're sort of locked into whatever you wrote Yeah, and I think that's been a problem for chem dog. Yeah Because people asked him what he thought and he gave what he remembered and then people wanted like Deep deep deep thoughts. Yeah on how it all went down And I don't I think he kind of spouted off as best he remembered And then people wanted a lot of information he didn't have Yeah, right. It's indisputable. Uh, they're two of my favorite cuts that these cuts came from dude Yeah, you know, however they were formed they exist. That's the important part. They exist. They're in the community They've made amazing hybrids. They're pretty awesome. They're super potent. They're nice You know the the interesting part about the one and the four The one is crazy. It takes like 12 or 13 weeks. Yeah, okay Um, the four takes 12-ish weeks. Usually we have a buddy Pip That you know, he takes it 84 90 days every time. Yeah, okay. It grows long running spears Um, and so it's really interesting because the d is a very short squat afghan Lime green super skunk looking thing, you know, uh, the dog is a very weird looking non frosty afghan Uh, the four is a super frosty long spears like your arm 12-weeker So how do you get a nine-weeker and a 10-weeker and a 13-weeker and a 12-weeker? And stuff that wants to be two feet tall and stuff that wants to be six feet tall Um, I mean it's possible and the one's all mercy and dominant like no Kemi by all like type stuff at all, you know, it doesn't you know, and so what I what I think is that um The d and the dog are different the dog is the chem 91 and the d is the chem d so Um, so basically what we have is we have these These various plants and to breeders Um They don't look the same Uh, and they don't um They don't breed the same And their s ones don't come out the same So you would expect If you did a bunch of s ones of the chem dog that you would start to see d phenos Or four phenos or this or that if they're if they're sisters and it's all in there Yeah, you would expect to see those things. You would see those phenos You don't see jack that looks like any of those. No You really don't and csi has run out hundreds of them Yeah, and other people have run out probably thousands of csis s ones too, you know, and so, you know, I think that You know, I think that a lot of them are from that You know that dog ss combo. Yeah, you know, um and so You know, I mean the good part about it is Is that the one is not is alive, but it's not really well circulated because it doesn't look pretty enough and it takes It takes 13 weeks But the four and the dog and the d are pretty well passed out and so lots of people have had them Um, there's not really fakes of the four Yeah, I've never really seen people pass fakes ones. Yeah, there's you know There's been one or two fakes of the of the actual dog, but it's not particularly common the d There's a lot of fakes. Yeah tons. There's a lot of fakes. Um, and so There's some chaos behind all that. Um, I don't know if we want to get into all into all that, but You know it And what I think And this is not knocking Greg or anything or chem dog. Excuse me by anything like that Um is that uh, I think the the fakes of the d are all sisters Personally, I think he had a bag of dog super skunk hybrids Right. Yeah, and when he lost the d he went back in that same little bag and popped stuff And I think those and because because the thing is that's weird is that Like three of the so-called fakes um People swear come directly from chem dog. Yeah Then that's probably the case. I mean the people that I know that got it from them. There's been A few people I'm pretty sure I can trust that got things from him labeled as d that were totally different They were they were I mean they all swear they got it directly from dude Yeah, and it ends up not being the not being the original d Yeah, it looks like the d smells like the d doesn't a lot Most of them don't grow like the d if you know how the d grows and they way different structure They typically lack the the the distinct flavor and the and the potency Yeah, but they look extremely close, especially in a bag or in a jar is dried weed Yeah, you know And so, you know, there's There's at least three maybe four fake d's Yeah, there's there's a lot There's there's quite a bit and I think those d's that got passed out later Or bought from bought from chem dog or whatever Those things got trade baited all over the place. Yeah, they got exploded everywhere. Everyone wanted to trade the d You know and so the real d kind of got buried Um It became the least circulated of the d's. Yeah It's the least circulated because and I mean this is this is this is starting This is going to get kind of political or whatever, but like I mean we can just say it that Um, most of there was a time where most of the people in colorado Uh that are chem fam didn't have the real d No, that was the uh kim s s one most they went they went through two fake d's Yeah, and they didn't even realize that they had fake d No, you'd have to know to know they didn't they didn't know and so they bred with it and they traded it and they Grew it and sold it and all this different stuff and it wasn't um It wasn't uh It wasn't it. Yeah, you know, I mean in fact I uh, I went to an emerald cup once and I had a fresh jar of real d Okay, and there's all these people.  Yeah, right and it turns out Uh, even though I was kind of proud of myself for a minute.   No, that's not real either Yeah Right And so those fakes just got traded so much that they drowned out the real d They also look Similar in pictures and they look similar as dried weed They're much easier to tell when you're growing them side by side And they're much easier to tell if you actually have a jar of real d to smoke next to them and there's also the the Little bit that the the fake d or the chem css one kicks live pollen Whereas that the chem d doesn't kick live pollen. You know, I mean I've had I've had the chem d since 06 I mean, maybe it produced a seed in that amount of time, but um So I'll answer that when my cut is super healthy It almost never variegates If you can't get your d to not variegate, it's not the real d.   Um, I have pictures of it variegating Uh, there's one on my page, but when it's when it's tip top shape and totally healthy You can really look really close and you can see slight variegation on a leaf here and there But other than that you really can't see it how how prone to Fox tailing is your cut Not Yeah, see that's the other the main trait of the the chems ss one if you're if your shit's real fluffy and fox tailing It's most likely not going to be the one that people use Yeah, they consider the the original and so there's uh, you know, there's I mean there's I don't know It's it's what's what's hard about it is you want to tell the truth Um, uh, the the finest chem d. I've smoked it. It's a nice cut. It tests super high It's not the real d at all and and also also taking into account that it's been tissue cultured. It has different hormones in it it's it's it The expression is going to totally be different. So it's it would be hard to tell I'm not I You know, are you more skeptical on it? I it's not the d. Okay. It's not it's not it doesn't mean it's bad I haven't seen it. So it doesn't mean it's bad I mean, I I've had friends that have grown it that have bought it from finest and run it in licensed gardens and stuff like that Here in Mendo. Yeah, it's a nice cut. It gets you super baked. It's not the real d. Yeah you know so you know there's and Man, I don't know. I mean, this is the point where it's like you want to tell stories And then you're like, okay. Well, what toes do I step on? Yeah, yeah And whose toes do I step on and this is why the the chem story up until this date has only been told certain ways Because like you tell this story like a hundred percent as you as you can best tell it With all the info that we have available It does step on toes regardless even if you don't want to it just yeah, you know Like joe brandon piba.    They want to be chem fam approved Right.  Like I i'm not trying to You know, it's it's hard to make it You know somebody out here for a tan Well, you know, I mean there's there's you know, obviously there's certain lines you shouldn't cross But how you monetize things and how you do certain things like that like I don't really think anything dude has done is crossed any lines um So, you know, yeah, the csi chems are totally worth hunting through Yeah, we said that like 90 times in this very very very much So the one thing that the chem the chem 91 does more than almost any other strain It throws potency in all of its offspring. Yeah, it Whether it's whether it's outcrosses whether it's the s ones There's some s ones that are as potent or even more potent than the mother cut.  They're they're worth hunting from csi. They're worth hunting from skunk va You know, if you have the real cut you can make some really nice really nice things, you know Exactly You know, and then there's preferences to you know, like as as well Like I tend to think that the 91 is one of my favorite cuts of all time I have and I think the nice one Yeah, and you know and and I I have some good friends like matt that are into it You know, they they give it respect for its potency and its power and its and its place But it's not something they would be choosing to smoke every day. Yeah.  I don't I'm not you're telling me not to look and I'm trying. I know. I'm sorry. That was too good.  I think you'll find good stuff in his work.  He's any question I've ever had He's been one of the most forthcoming out of all those dudes always always I think some of his some some of his interviews and stuff have been quite honest from his perspective Yeah, um, so I got nothing but good.  They got it And they'll still argue till they're blue in the face that they had the real d that it never was the fake one Yeah, they get pissed.  You know, it really that I mean there was some people that were staring at the ceiling on the couch for a number of hours off a couple of bong hits Some people thought about going to bed early Uh, you know, it was it was unusually strong. It doesn't mean the finest cut is bad. I'm not saying that You know, a lot of times people have this idea that if it's not real, it can't be good Yeah, and that's a different subject.  I don't know like 30 grand or something like that. That's how the story goes That's how the story goes.  Yeah pay to pay for vouching, right? Yeah And so a lot of people think that he's he's has some deep tires been involved with the kems for a long time Um, he never came into contact with them I don't think until he came out to colorado and worked with your buddy matty league, right? Yeah, correct He he never I don't think he never maybe he'd smoked them before but he never had them He never had access to them and when he wanted them he couldn't get them from anyone out there that had them So he bought them the only one I know he had early was snow dog. That's it. No dog. Yeah, so um You know, so then you know, he ends up he ends up breeding Uh those cuts into everything because it's kind of one of the things when he started his own seed company that was like He was rocking the headbands and the kems super hard. Okay. So my buddy, uh I see collective he had lost the d and he had just been out visiting colorado and he was like, well, why don't you send it to me? Yeah, like sure. So they send it to him and he grows it out And he calls him up and says you don't have real d This is the this is what we call the bundy sys s1. Yeah, not real d Not even close. Yeah, okay. So for two years Uh three years something like that. Uh those guys had spent all this time breeding the the d and everything they had And then they quietly had to change it to kemsis Yeah, they never intended on on breeding with kemsis and I'll give him credit for that He did actually he did change it to kemsis. I that's I that's all credit because he most people wouldn't even do that He did he did change it.  It was an s1 of the real kemsis They call the bundy cut because bundy was one of kem dog's growing partners And one of the people that a lot of the growing was actually done by him Um, he's passed away now. Um, but it was kind of named for him Yeah, he's he's one of the other silent people in the whole Um history of kem dog that doesn't get talked about a lot But I think he had more to do with the the genetics aspect and the crossing and any intentional crossing that would have been done Will probably have been done by him.   Um, and the the interesting part And this is the reason why I believe that all the fake d's are sisters to the d Is that at least three of them that were absolutely positive came from kemdog himself Yeah, and they're all very similar to the d Right, so, um, you know to to to kemdog He's never been the type to be so militant about what strain it is When you were buying kemdog weed It was kemdog weed because it was from kemdog.  This is the kemdog weed. I have here's kemdog weed Yeah, you know, so for people that are like sticklers about things. That's not your guy, you know um and so He was both the pre pre and the kentucky skunk guy Uh, he was a lying You know, he had the big tattoo on his neck He was super rude to people. He was dishonest. He lied. He stole. He cheated He was very unpleasant. He and the being He's in oklahoma. I think somewhere likely failing No, he did fail. He did fail.  Yeah I mean, whatever he was he was one of the rudest and shittiest people that I encountered on ig Yeah For those that don't know you it is very hard to get not so to say anything about anyone that isn't a nice Like the the only nice thing you could say about them. I have rarely ever seen him Yeah, he just is just I don't know just a general human being but you know So so that's the thing is that there was a number of people that got ahold of kem And there's some kem people Uh, like my buddy from statten island who he's retired now, but who really wanted to keep it very close Yeah, and you know and it got out and it caused a bunch of guff that it got out like a lot of other strains and You know So the kemsis as far as I know and I talked to kem dog about this Has been dead for a long time. Yeah, there are several s ones of it supposedly that exist The real d is alive And at least three or four fakes Yeah, you know if you have what's called the dirty d And you like I said before if you can't get the variegation to go away It's fake And they look very similar. No one is going to be able to tell you that you have the the real d by pictures Yeah, it's very difficult Um, it's you know, when you smoke it, you know You know, um, I've grown some of them side by side with the real d and you can see significant growth differences Is as long as you have a controlled group like the real one to compare it to Yeah, you know Um, absolutely, uh, I believe that um, it's 91 ss and it was all accidental herms Yeah, the sour story and the kem story is all accidental hermaphrodism. There is no intentional anything in it Yeah, it's all accidents You know, yeah, I mean, uh, I never heard boaty say a bad word about anyone I don't really say a bad word about anyone. I just literally think that like joint breath is one of the three worst people I've met on ig Yeah, um, he's terrible and if you read his comments and how he talks to people And how he breaks his word and various things.  Someone just asked are the sour and d sisters Yeah, no, I think it's a great question. I think it's a great question. I don't think so but only because um We know we know from the story of the sour that they got beans out of the They got beans out of this weed from from kem dog and it was it was very likely it was 91 ss Yeah, so at that point it's already a hybrid Right, um, it wouldn't be it wouldn't be the ss and the dog Making seeds. Yeah, and then they grew up those seeds And which called the diesel one and the diesel two And then those things hermed And out of that herm comes the sour. Yeah So Do I think they're straight sisters? No, do I think they're very closely related? Yes, I do So there's one little part we hadn't gotten into because it's kind of Part of the story but not and it's more of a recent type thing It sounds like and this is this is putting together stuff from scumfie from his mentor me Caleb not to all of us really and everyone in our tan illuminati group It sounds like at some point what was given out and taken pictures of and hybridized as mass super skunk Might not be the same original super skunk that came from va and was traded It so there is that little nuance. So we should we should say this too. So There's an aspect to it where like people don't like to admit that they've that that they've lost things Yeah, and so you can go look on after this show or whatever you can go look and see those famous picks that Skunk va posted of the super skunk. Yeah From 95 96 all that type of stuff And it looks very sour like very long very spears tall lanky stretchy those type of buds The super skunk that got passed around massachusetts And the stuff that was in the high times is a much wider much thicker much shorter afghani type Yeah, and so I think I can't say for certain like I said it's conjecture But I think that you know The super skunk itself and its children and its hybrids produced a variety of seeds And chem dog probably had a bag of this seed and a bag of that seed and a bag of some of this And people have tried to recreate it. Yeah, there was also some busts involved You know, there was some other issues.  Sorry one second Because that that is one question I've always had whether the one that's in jeezal is the one that's in sour There was a couple. There was supposedly a six and an eight. Yeah, you know We got I guess what we you would classify as the six. I suppose although we didn't find that out so much later um But uh, but that was the one that got that got passed it out I'm not going to answer which sour is better and which one is the real deal. We could do an entire sour episode talking about it Um, oh, okay Yeah, that always knowledge from my gannock. Well that guy is super. I mean, yeah hard part about The hard part about the sour crew is that you know, is that people have different memories of things You know and weasel and vando and man some of these guys they don't all agree on everything Weasel can't tell the same story. I love the dude He's super cool super nice. I love his listening to him talk about history and stuff But he's had a very hard time being consistent in his stories from one day to the next literally like there was a podcast Maybe a week in between the two where he told completely different stories about the history of sour So when I when I going through history and stuff when I see that I usually toss it all out because if it's an unreliable narrator as far as being able to remember the story Well, you know as it consistently I toss it I will say this About this the sour thing is that because the sour came out of a bunch of hermaphroditic weed Yeah, okay. I believe there was a couple cuts even early on Right and then vando who was one of the guys that actually lived in the apartment where the accident happened Right. Yeah, when he moved west he took some seeds with him from that initial thing west and sprouted And sprouted some and kept it cut in southern california. Yeah According to him. So I think You know, I don't think that there was just one.  Everybody thinks the real sour diesel is the whatever one they saw first.  Yeah, I can say I can say this about the sour. I got the sour in 2000 And I've never lost it I don't know which one it is. Yeah, but I've had it for 22 years now so, um You know, is it the first is it one of the couple, you know, um Luckily for us most of the diesel cuts are nice Yeah, you know when people talk about real when people talk, oh, I can take trace it back to 95 I can this I can that you should buy it for $5,000 a pound because it's You know, that's a lot of marketing. Yeah to me Uh, but the sour story is confusing You know, and it gets more confusing every day when people When newer people enter the scene and claim old heritage on their sour cut and You know, a lot of people are still the past five six years and they don't know these people are new It just conflates it more and over the years ago.  I mean, I I see Uh, you know, I see people chatting about this or whatever. I mean, you know, if people remember I'm not even calling dude out But if people remember, you know, j plant speaker went through a two or three year period where he thought that like seeds You know only growing from seed was the way and the clones were bunk You know, he's very he had probably had he's deleted them all now, but he's had hundreds of posts about it He was super into seeds the market changed on him And you know in 2017 or something he got that sour back You know, and so he he's had this out. He's had this sour about four years Yeah Does that mean that he didn't he had it in the past at some point?   No I I can speak to that personally at the um first Adam dumb cup when he brought out his a j sour We were all standing around just expecting because it was one of the first times he'd come out in quite a while And he was there with uh jj and he brought out this jar and said this is my sour So we're all kind of hanging around it.  Yeah, I mean it's been a really bad cure It may have been any numbers things, but yeah, I don't know I mean, there's people that have the modern a j sour cut And there's people that have an a j sour cut from long ago And they're not the same no, um, um big worm had a older a j sour cut and it was dank It smelled like sour, you know, but I've had I've smelled a j's new sour and it is not the same thing People are saying does anyone else have and work the same sour that you do? I don't know How how could I know?   Yeah You know, do you know, there's there's got to be five or six years ago With matt and some of our friends on our discord and stuff like that and back and forth We started chatting about aspects and they kept asking me which sour is it Is it the choco? Is it the res cut? Is it the a j? Is it the The east coast sour diesel. Is it the shroomy cut at amish?  I have no idea. I've no idea where you're talking about What are you talking about because I never got any of those because I Got this hour long ago and never lost it. So I thought I had this hour.  Yeah, exactly Right. So I start collecting these things and I get the new york city diesel and I get the east coast sour diesel And I get the the amish and this and this and this and this and I'm like, okay I'm going to figure out which one mine is Yeah, and I grow them all out and none of them are mine So I was like, oh You know, it seems like the east coast sour diesel Or what some people call the east coast sour diesel and the choco are the same Yeah, I was the one who named it choco cut and it was only because when people would ask me Like hey, what which cut is yours? Choco had the best representation and grow and so did call for that matter and it was the best representation and grow That's the same cut that that that The devil's harvest crew scott reach and all those guys It's the same cut that they run a sour and it's the same Most likely the same cut that that csi uses as well as easy amish and shroomy are the same cut, right? I have no clue.  I like that one the best I do think that the one that my but our buddy pip gave me that there was ecsd.  I didn't like as much. But yeah, I Um, I like that one a whole bunch. Yeah, that's the people say s1.  Yeah, and it got called amish because of that So there's you know, we've had friends that have reversed the sour And gotten like 15 seats.  Yes, because they don't want to buy 100 seeds to find a couple that are fire Yeah, you know, so sour has been a difficult breeder And it doesn't s1 It doesn't seem any of the cuts s1 well. Yeah, which is why you rarely ever see Sour s1s for sale.  Yeah, it takes pollen fine. Yeah, it makes, you know, it makes seeds It makes hella seed with that blue bonnet cross that I did It makes all kinds of seeds.   I'm biased because pip is my good buddy Yeah, both of our good buddies So take that as you will but I will say that his sourine Um, there's a number of his hybrids that a lot of fire has been found Yeah, um, yeah There his rubber city his sourine some of his other sour work You know, he's my good friend. He cares. He has real nice cuts And um, yeah, he's this serious about provenance is any of us Like he is very serious about it getting it right and and but yeah, there's there's a there's a bunch of people Um, and I don't want to I don't want to judge people, right?     I've just I've just never monetized cuts I've given and I'm not even judging. I'm just saying that like I typically give I typically trade with people that I think are like have have a good heart And you weed the same way that I do You know, um, and so, you know, that's it's I don't really sell cuts. I'm not I'm not hyping That's the other part of it, right? Is that I don't I don't like I'm not hyping it for you to buy anything for me Yeah You know, um Original D is a tough one to find info on because like I said, I did a live feed just trying to show how to To find info on something and use that as an example. I can't trace the the Day record. I can't trace it. I can't trace it back past a certain point and it's it's frustrating because it's one of my favorite cuts So I'll say this too. The sour has a super confusing story Because the people involved don't all agree exactly what happened yeah, um and um Well duke also someone's saying what headband is duke using Uh duke is in a federal halfway house getting out of the clink. He's not using anything. He doesn't have any plants He's not breeding anything the cut he had before is what we call the the 56 day It's an og type He never had the la. He never had the day record. He never had anything like that Yeah, um, he's he doesn't have anything right now.   It's A diesel type, okay The what people call the 56 day Is a renamed og kush. Yes There was violence in the kush family down in southern california a guy fled to the bay with that cut He wanted to grow and sell that cut. He didn't want the stress of whatever was happening in southern california to follow him They decided they were going to rename the cut They decided on the name headband Yeah And a dude in the bay Uh a dude in the bay um Uh what gave out a a mislabeled tray Of that headband. Yeah, and that's how um bob hemp hill I see collective myself Right around 05 06 or something like that. We all got it.   Yeah You know, it uh it popped up I by the time that he was talking on the forums about having it. I'd had my my headband for eight years Yeah, something like that Um, I've been trying to look for information on exactly what my headband is for 20 some years Yeah, not easy It's not easy. There's a certain things that the headband is a very mysterious story Um, the 707 headband is the child it was made by Mandelbrot.  That's the area code up here in Humboldt Mendo. So that's why he called it the 707 And so after post swerve releasing his sour og Almost every single cut that was found from that was called something headband So at that point I mean I've actually I've actually wondered if my headband cut is um From the sour seeds that vando popped in la Could be yeah, he told me he popped seeds and he got a really nice phenol on it. I don't know that's complete conjecture But you know I it's very closely related Yeah, but actual information. It's kind of like when we talked on the live actual information about urkel The who the what the where and the how No, yeah, people don't got it.  Oh boy original, right?   I'll say this lupa You know lupa was very open with his friends That he renamed the lupa headband whatever he wanted to to market it at the time. Yeah He said confusion causes sales Yeah, he he gave it four or five different names. Yeah, it's a great. It's it's very it's a shitty breeder Uh, none of my friends. It's very inconsistent. Yeah, let's put it that way. It's very inconsistent and um, but it's a nice cut Yeah, definitely gets you high.  So all the stuff with all the stuff with sour and headband and the diesel family there's some fact and there's some conjecture and I doubt You know, I I doubt that it'll ever be completely cleared up Yeah, even the guys involved don't all agree and as matt mentioned before weasel or whatever Um, you know, he's talked and written multiple different stories. Yeah There was a guy that was wanted to ask about origins tk Or whatever, uh, that's another one where the same gentleman has written three completely different stories Different strains different years slightly different versions And so even if you want to believe that one of those versions is true They can't all be true. Yeah, they can't all be true and in his he just seems to be more More sure about what it was that he was in the past I think that's the best way I put it in the in the beginning He said in 1994 he got hired by the guys that he was he was being paid for to grow To go to amsterdam and mule some seeds back and they bought half a dozen different seed packs And they grew it all in this 12 lighter And it hurt and one of them they missed a male or it hermed on this Triangle that they called the triangle because it was from the triangle area Yeah, and then he told us a couple he he was on our discord a few years ago And he told us that he went there in 91 Yeah, you know his current story was he went there in 89 Yeah, um, you know, so he's he's he's written three completely different stories With different times different plants different strains listed So, I mean, what do you do with that?  Yeah, I tend to think the oldest ones are good The tk. I like a lot Um, certainly like the tks ones from csi are amazing Um, I like the flow rider which I got early Um, so You know, I um You know, there's uh, there's a lot of stuff that goes on with that that Famous cuts. That's what happens with famous cuts people rename them People get bad bag seeds and put their own name on them, right? People call them different names to sell them to different groups of people Yeah, who you get it from it bases. What name you call it because that's who they called it Um, the ghost og Um, the ghost og that's traded today isn't the ghost og that was traded long ago No, not the same cut at all The ghost that goes around as ghost isn't even the same ghost The ghost that goes around as ghost now isn't the original ghost that was getting passed out And that original ghost was getting sold to people for 30 to 50 thousand dollars a cut I'm talking about the guy that goes around as ghost isn't even the same Yeah, the guy the ghost throw isn't even the isn't even the original ghost that actually traded it in the very beginning Yeah, that's not the person the cut was named after chem 91 is is I mean you could call it very bland.  It is absolutely bomb. Yeah Um, I've run it very midsy before myself. Yeah, I mean there was uh, I I believe I I'll answer I'll answer dude because he's tied into homie, but Yeah, I see collective. I believe he got the dog the 91 in 1997 right after he graduated high school He moved in with skunk VA Yeah, and they lived together He skunk VA was growing And that was the first place that I see collective lived outside of Outside of his parents house, you know And so yeah, he got it. He got it right around 1997 and that was multiple years before any of us saw og Yeah, I mean even if you listen to like A bubble cushy story and those guys I don't think they even moved west until 1996 Okay, I got a question for you Nato. Yep. How likely do you think it is that northern lights is responsible in any way for chem 91? I think That it's a reasonably good chance Interesting. There you go. Um, I can't post it here, but um, I was talking before about our buddy pip Yeah, and pip had a 88 day chem four Okay that he had Put on that he had just gotten done and I had him open an 89 catalog Of the seed bank nevels nevel seed bank and put it right next to a bud of nl5 haze And it was like it it was really close. Okay, so you're referring to chem four being probably at it But how about chem 91? I think it's a reasonable chance. I mean, uh, csi not Isn't it I I mean which which nl, I mean look, um in 1990 1991 nl was one of the most common things you could buy There was nl1. There was nl2. There was nl5. Um, there was multiple hybrids of each So, um, do I think that uh, do I think that it could be in there? Yes, I do um, I think it I think nl and skunk and haze are likely in most things Yeah, at least one of the three and sometimes I'll I tend to disagree on on nl5 being in chem 91 only because It's so it's so uniform and stable and specific. You didn't say nl5. I think nl is in it appear Okay, but I I still think it's more likely going to be an afghan t descendant It could be it could be entirely possible, you know, which would move it out of the nl range personally But but that but that's what i'm saying is that you know, we're we're going on 31 years now since the seed has popped Yeah, it's all this part is all theory. This is you could sit there. We don't know that it came from dog bud We don't know if it came from the dog bud that was sold on the lot to chem dog We don't know if it came from weed later.  Yeah, and it was given it was the weed was sold to a 17 year old Yeah by some early 20-something weed hustlers In a parking lot. Yeah out of out of the car at a dead show So not exactly, you know Yeah, the closest thing that i've ever seen to 91 in just growing general afghani different types. There was an old bizarre um landrace that soma was selling and i think dna sold it as afghan some kind of afghan For a while they were relabeling it but it was an old mazar and it was very herm thrown and it grew very much like chem 91 endless white pistols Had a little bit of the leaf cannibalization stuff Just the general structure resin production And then the afghani one has a lot of similar traits, which for a long time I thought it's got to be an afghani one for sure till the afghani t stuff kind of came up I'll I'll throw something that that threw through me for a loop. Um at one of our little canna illuminati Canna illuminati parties that we threw during the emerald cup CSI came down and was hanging out with us that weekend And him and I had a long chat about whether or not Chem 91 could be an s1 from nl5 haze Yeah And it kind of blew my mind because I'd never really considered it But it does have rare potency It is tall It does take a long time for an afghan. Yeah Uh, we do start these lives late. Uh, we're callie. I can't help it Um, I'm sorry. It's late And uh, but that's the way it goes Uh elite cannabis from colorado is legit. Yes very much so and so So, you know, uh, Caleb wondered, you know, could it have been an s1? From nl5 haze and it just leaned toward the nl side And that's and you know, and he thinks it's an s1 of something Not a full hybrid just because of the narrow range of phenos it throws. Yeah, like it kind of throws itself Yep, and so from a breeding perspective, that's a really good hint That um, it's Um Selfed self. Yeah. Yep That's a really good hint, but I do not believe ever Um, I think the only path to any kind of certainty Is eventually DNA testing that is as accurate as human DNA testing Yeah, and I have no idea when that is going to pop up So was it phylos? We are not going to get any amazing new information from Joe brand or pee bud or chem dog or anyone that clarifies it. Yeah We're just not You know, so And that's not a diss on them. It's just you know A bag of weed was sold that you know, I mean You know, everyone wishes that like some of the most important things you ever do You'd realize it was one of the most important things you'd ever do.  We've got credit card acceptance the spray is up there to get You can we have cash for money order ready to rock Um, I'll throw some options up there for something. I'm not sure what but it'll probably be breeders packs of stuff Uh, I might do the the the blue sour breeders packs Because it's a very it's very true breeding to the sour side as opposed to berry Doesn't come through so much and I might do maybe a pack of the Sour dub cross to diesel something like that where it's very super strong Super scop dominance. So I wanted to plug that in there right seedco.com and uh, go check out speakeasy seed bank They also have some other stuff up there Um, yeah, so now we got that done if you want options go there after this back to the story Um people are talking about can you just get a grow license and and do it all legally? the problem with getting a grow license and doing it all legally is that Then it occurred and right now and encourage so much expenses to go legal in just about any state That it makes it really difficult for people to just wild the experiment with no financial benefit Yeah, it would be amazing if that was the case And legality I was hoping for a while would really open things up But it's kind of limited things in a way. Um, you know because it's gotten it's so financially expensive You really have to win Um It's going to be less and less coming up because with more with more Laws going down about space how many plants you can grow all that it's there's going to be a lot less playing time You know, I mean people say just said Oklahoma even in Oklahoma Most of the people that are out in Oklahoma that that are doing it cheap They're blowing it up right now to make a bunch of money Most people out of Oklahoma went there and lost that's that's why I mean, that's the thing that people want to know like is that all the all the breeding that I did for a long time Was financially very stupid Yeah Because I could have taken that I could have taken that same space and pumped out weed that sold for way more Yeah, you know Way more, you know, and so that's why That's honestly why like so much stuff comes from like a relatively small group of people Yeah, because most people if they're given the opportunity to grow weed They just try to grow as much weed as they can of something that makes them the most money Yeah And especially 20 years ago when I was doing a lot of my breeding Um before before you could monetize like with ig and all these different things and you could be a little Personal american breeder Yeah, like breeding was like a labor of love You know my buddy from statten island talked about You know how how many seeds you could make in a in an eight lighter versus how many pounds Yeah And he was like man if we could just sell these even for a dollar or two We could wait way more money than that eight lighter could make Yeah But we didn't have the infrastructure or the internet or the this or that or whatever in order to like actually like You know and then even when we did get the internet.   I mean I'll save this too like I you know I don't want to say it like you know, some people might interpret When you talk about truth or you talk about your opinion, uh, there's a there's a real common thing right now where people talk about Oh, you're a hater Or oh, you're dissing me or something like yeah, I'm not really trying to do that to most people When it comes down to it But you know people have their version of events and people have their version of truth And most of the time people only tell you the truth in cannabis if it financially benefits them Yeah There's a lot of things that are sort of like commonly known amongst the tight circles That don't get put out to the common I don't want to say common's the wrong word, but to the masses because they don't want the blowback Yeah, you know, they don't want they don't want the attacks.  I thought we were bros You're supposed to back me up Yeah, and that's how a lot of stuff stays secret And that's why it took this long for a lot of this to even come out. Would I collab with bodhi?  Bodhi is a good friend of both of ours You know, I uh, yeah, you know, um most of the time honestly, I uh You know, I I I use flour to survive and seeds were the passion Yeah, for some people it's reversed and seeds are the way to survive and flour is the passion, you know, I grew I grew flour to survive So seeds were I mean I gave I haven't really sold seeds, but I gave thousands and thousands of them away Yeah, and entire seed companies were created off of it um because back then the goal to be frank wasn't uh Wasn't wrapper money. It was trying to make better weed We didn't think there was any money in seeds Yeah You know, do we think the dankety dank is going to disappear? It could Yeah, it's under real. It's under real risk because the powers that be don't really care about as you put it dankety dank Yeah, um, a lot of anybody that spends dollars with companies You're you you're using your dollars like votes Yeah, granted. It's not a political process, but it kind of is And if you keep supporting companies that keep doing these like non-stop gelato hybrids cookies Oh my god, let me enter. Let me interject sure since he does get a bad rap these days And it's well deserved Because since he outsourced all of their work to spain Yeah, they are they are not the legends they were in the 90s Correct. They I don't know what what else they have. I don't know how much they have that's real I know they got busted in 1999 2000 And they moved their operation out of holland in two spain And they get third parties to make their seeds Um, could they have one or two strains among there that they sent to those people and they have and it's semi what it was I suppose But they sell everything That they used to sell they even used the same fucking pictures that neville had in his seed catalog from the 80s They have not They have not updated their pictures Yeah, 30 plus years Yeah, ever Yeah, that should be telling I mean, you know, if you know if you want better weed Cross things that you like together Give out seeds to your friends hold on to seeds Hold on to clones that you think work really good for you Try to get some friends to back them up too You know, I mean that's that's really the way that the the the dankety dank will survive better weed will survive if People make it a point even if it's financially expensive to them You know to keep it Yeah You know, that's really what's going to go down to So do you think we hit all the salient points of the the chem stuff? I think uh I want to try to keep it in that region for a good podcast audio podcast Yeah, we kept we can I mean even like when we went off on sour and headband and stuff. I consider that chem family Yeah, it's still all very relevant. Um, you know and so um, but yeah, I mean basically what it boils down to Is that a chem dog?  I don't say that. I don't mean that in a bad way people have no interest or people have different interests He's a very talented glassblower for sure. Yeah him him being able to share some of this stuff with my buddy from statten island And share it with other people and have some herm accidents happened kind of changed the face of cannabis It did and so He deserves a lot of credit for that because he as a teenager was growing weed in a totally illegal state And an undergoing risk. Yeah And so if I've said some things that counter counter ticks his like official word or whatever. I'm not dissing him You know on any level, um, he contributed a lot. Yeah, you know People want, you know, imagine if someone asked you to remember 10 or 15 or 20 years ago exactly what happened And imagine you had three friends in the room and they put you all in separate rooms and they asked you to remember the exact story Yeah, there's going to be differences. Yeah For sure and people's memories change You know, yeah, and there's a lot of people who tried to change the story for their own good later on They weren't even a part of the original curve.  Yeah So we're gonna try to keep documenting them as best we can. Um, hopefully this was enlightening for all of you Uh, or or some people, you know, I hope you uh, I hope you enjoyed it And and of course we we talk all the time in the breeder syndicate discord Um, you can find that going to google And you can type in breeder syndicate patreon. You can join through there It's five dollars a month and we all hang out shoot the shit in there watch fights and talk a lot about weed history um The current political goings on in weed be that different breeders Different strains what have you? Uh, not so is in there too.  So it's it's a you know, it's it's an easy way to catch him is in the discord That isn't it. It's it's more communicative IG used to be better when it was when it was time-based And before shadow banning and all that type of stuff. It's not it's not what it used to be That's in terms of a communication tool at least Yeah, um, and so, you know, and you know, I got kids and lives and things and this and that but I do think it's important to come out and like say and have community um, and a lot of a lot of a lot of Unfortunately a lot of podcasts and a lot of things are sort of like like an infomercial about the person or their own personal company Yeah, there's not a lot going on where people just want to talk about history or people just want to talk about various aspects That don't benefit them or don't burnish their legend You know, and so I think we need some more of that just in general Yeah, and to finish this off. Don't forget about red seat code dot com Easy seat bank hit them all up and it is true because if you don't support the real ones then it makes it much harder for real ones to exist All right. Well, thanks for coming on not so it's always a pleasure Maybe we can do the friday night is a good night to do this for me. So I think I think we'll try to make this a regular thing So enjoy everyone. Enjoy your weekend peace


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