i과edwch nhw, ac oeddwn gwelwch gweithio y gwaith o Elin Brann. Y cwm yn gweld i Elin, mae'n gweithio. Prif ffais o gyfnodau oherwydd graf, yn y gwasanaeth i'le'r bobl. Foddan aethwch oherwydd gan y hwyl, rhan, countryside ddishwydd y gymteisio yma. Rhaid i'n fydde, i ru'n tro a'u adref. Rhaid i'n kuw fydd y gweithio gwyddo i bod yn cael ddechrau'n cyflawn i'n ymweld. Wrth gwrs, mae'n gweithio gwaith. Da't your answer It's been hard break for the last six years Problems with the police, problems with other people So... ...an home will go back to the start Alan But we'll go right back to the way... ...how was Alan's upbringing? Um... ...just a normal lad We brought him up We can learn more when he's... ...紫er Tempernt ninth He was spoiled with his mum His mum always spoiled him at Christmas time six years ago just over six years ago before Alan went to the night club as it sticks in Glenrow office. Did you see him before he went to the night club? What basically happened that Saturday? Alan had a few friends in the house and heard the music going on obviously having a drink upstairs. There was no plans for him to actually go out. This is quite normal in my house because I prepared my son and these friends to be in my house and that and that. That way I knew where they were and I knew they were safe and things like that. It was just out of the blue. One of his friends says, what company is this engagement party? I went and invited because one of his friends was getting engaged and he was such a happy man. He probably made me ask me for a few quid for a few pints and that was that. He just says I'm away. I'm away with the engagement party and we're all laughing and joking and that's when I left the house around half past eight on the Saturday the second November to go to this engagement party. And that was the last you ever seen him? That was the last I ever seen my son. It's heartbreaking. So when did you get the phone call that or when did you start getting the panic alarm that he was missing or something was wrong? Well Sunday came obviously Alan was out in that and sometimes he'd come home early in the morning and wake this up during or show up at the windy like he'd just wake this up during the night whatever and sometimes he would stay out or crash out with our mates. Young boy, 24. I've used to get two or three, four days at a time. He was 23. He would just say crash out of mates and they might end up on the rattle again the next day. You know what I mean? You just don't know but it was like obviously the more Sunday went on and you're sitting on that's not like him. You know what I mean because every time that Alan's out you always text even though he didn't have a phone that night which I've tried to clarify with everyone. You'd always ask a friend for a shot of his phone because he's lost his phone a couple of weeks before but beforehand he'd bought one of his friends home. It's all that text. You know what I mean? Dad I'm here. I'm all right. You know what I mean? Like you need to worry in that. It's just the more Sunday went on I started to worry and this is when we started like asking people and calling people and Mary was going to the doors to see if we were seeing Alan and things like that and we were sitting and going we just felt there was something wrong. You know what I mean? So my life to Monday that was the fourth of November and by that time we started to get really concerned because he's never been away that long without hearing from him and then on Monday we just knew something to him because it was totally unlike him to be away that long without letting us know. Did you have that gut feeling that there's something not right here? Both of these did, me and his mum, there was something wrong. So what steps did you take then Alan? Well the day went, as the day progressed, Mary and I'm phoning about and I obviously still try to find out and everybody's talking about Alan and things like this and just trying to find out where he was, who's seen him, who he left a nightclub with and look this afternoon got on with the report that they're missing out for 40pm to police on the opposite idea. Did Alan have any enemies or any grievances on the build up to it? Yeah he did. One he actually smashed our window accidentally four weeks player, some heavy mob who actually owned shops and ate drugs and all that and what basically happened is we got a phone call Alan and his power price up near the shops and so it was nothing major you know I mean it wasn't me, it wasn't the cause of anything to me him and anything like that.  You know I'm grabbing him and so what he did was he lashed out to his feet and he smashed a bomb that window and as a result of that the shop owner has actually said to Alan's cousin until your cousin is getting it. Do you think that had anything to do with the disappearance? It's one of the theories that like yeah they could be involved. Because we were speaking earlier and you said that the last two people to speak to Alan were two police officers, do you think that's got anything to do with it also? I think the police know as I like what's happened to my son and in my son's investigation I do believe the police have not just made the mistakes, they've intentionally made the mistakes and regarding the CCTV footage, I believe the CID officers were on the take as well known and gone office you know what I mean going to certain restaurants getting free meals, turn up the back a shop slate and getting free drink for engagement parties for property parties, wedding parties for anything you know what I mean, they're getting free drink, I mean everybody else goes to the Azars, I mean nobody goes to a convenience store to actually get free to get alcohol if you know what I mean like especially when you're having a party because I wouldn't I mean I'd go to the Azars or tech schools and but apparently there's a different market going off the CID. So from that night then what CCTV footage is there any evidence or is there anything to say where Alan could have went when he left the nightclub? The very first thing when the CID actually came out on the Monday was Alan's mum, Mary, just she was going get the footage, get the footage from the stacks, click to the CCTV footage, get the CCTV footage and we're always on about the police about this and I mean there's absolutely quite a lot of cameras involved outside Stickslink club, there's a chip shop with it with CCTV and there's a boxing, this guy who supplies bouncers and owns a boxing club, he's got 15 cameras outside his gymnasium he actually does the security at CCTV with the bouncers and also runs the CCTV footage but the police feel to collect any, I mean the only footage the police ever did get was Alan leaving the nightclub in the foyer walking out and one camera saying I'm walking away but that CCTV footage is like totally flawed, it's lies, you know what I mean, I've taken my share, I've got myself, I've got my share on this because that's not the truth, because I've actually seen nearly 40 minutes of the footage with Alan inside the foyer, the foyer and Alan outside and when I've seen Alan walk away, he's turned left behind the nightclub so what the police are saying is like he headed homewards but that's not true, Alan headed left and the only way for him to come back around again for the police to actually talk to him, sitting on that wall he must have went round behind the nightclub, Alan was still present and the reason I know this is one of Alan's friends actually said to him, Alan went left in the taxi and Alan says not sorry, I'm going somewhere and he's made a game of a cigarette and so he's made, he says I was just sitting on the wall talking to two police officers but for some reason there's another camera which should actually approve that, which is pointing towards the wall, you know what I mean, the light and the police have refused to actually let me see that, I've tried many times to ask them, it's not my only camera, I don't know whether they've collected it, I've collected it or not, I was just saying they have collected it, I don't know whether they're refusing to actually let me see it, they're actually saying the light's interfering with it but the light's, the camera's putting a position with the lights behind it, you know, it could see everything and I found you and my son, if my son headed home, he was having caught back in that camera, the one he was actually captured in, no point, I mean 41 minutes, just short of 40 minutes, no point to my son, I put him back in that footage again, the last two people to see, the last two people to talk to my son were two police officers. What do you think happened that night Alan, to your son? Oh, there was another disturbance behind Sticks nightclub which the police completely ignored, there was one earlier on which you know about, which happened at the back of one, it's just quite hard, I'm going look, it's a nightclub, you do know like there could be one or two, three of the stubs in the nightclub and these people staying in the dwellings across from the nightclub, two independent witnesses came forward, one says, at 2.15 we heard somebody screaming, lassie screaming in hysterics and things like that and another witness 2.20 said, I got woken up with people screaming in hysterics and it was just like, it sounded like something really bad was happening but the police never followed that up in the security company, never checked their cameras and there was actually cameras behind the car park as well and the police were able to collect that and basically what they told me was when I put the complaint in was the council cameras stopped working that night. The only night they've stopped working was a night Alan disappeared, because you've made a few complaints against the police, what kind of complaints did you make? It was fighting, the very first thing was obviously I seen Alan CCTV footage of him leaving the nightclub, he was drunk, I mean like, he's went out, it's not a problem, he's drunk, I'm not interested if he's drunk or not, all I want is that footage released as soon as possible and this is what I kicked on fighting for from day one when Alan's mum was going to get that footage and the police keep on sending me or the technical department and Glasgow's working on this and I mean it takes time, data protection, you brought out people's images and all that and I'm sitting, as time goes on, a few weeks goes on, I'm going to get that footage out, you've had plenty of time to sort that out, you know what I mean, get it out there, get it out there, get my sons, it's the most important thing of all, get that footage out there because it's all you've got, it's all you've got and they keep coming up with the same excuses constantly and you're lying to me because I know guys that could do that, you know what I mean, I know guys, there are no experts in computers but they could do that, you know what I mean, fairest sightings of footage, you know what I mean, for some reason they didn't want to release my son's CCTV footage leaving that nightclub, when they did eventually release it it was I don't need a petition and it was don't need pressure from the local press and things like that and actually released it on the 6th of June 2014 and that's well over seven months after my son went missing and if you're out in the night out, I mean seven months if you're a young person, I mean you're not going to the number that night because you're going to have other nights out, you know what I mean, so it was vital, it was really vital that footage was released as soon as possible and it's an outcome and a complaint, we have to go through the police professional standards department to actually get to work, they actually agreed it would be beneficial, it would have been beneficial for the police to actually release the CCTV footage as soon as they can. So how have the police been treating you six years later and that six years, how have they been with you? It's, even when they say to the press it's just a constant lie, they say they're constantly in touch with the Brian family with updates and things like that, lucky here from a couple of times a year and I've actually got to do something drastic, walking to a police station or with a poster, I mean I put a video up on social media, you know what I mean, just to get their attention and then they'll contact me, you know what I mean, just it's just getting pressure on them, I mean the police, every time they talk to the press, it's just the same thing, this is the biggest investigation I've done in five, we've already got contact with family with updates, they're making it like they're actually in touch with us like all the time, because they're not, you know what I mean, like as I said I've got to do something, you know what I mean. Do you think they should be doing more then? They should have done everything more, it's no just more, they should have collected all that CCTV footage, I mean everywhere from the schools there's so much yet, I mean I want to be at home at the climate shops and just sit and go in, why did they not do that?  I don't have any sense to be lazy, I was just doing negligence and I don't want to say they're post a guilty anything but they would have acted if I was in someone missing, it sort of makes them selfish to look guilty because they're not telling the public the truth because the first week when Alan went missing he actually promised an incident to be outside the Sticks night club on the Friday 8th of November 2013 and then 9th of November on Saturday 2013 so I sat there and like obviously I was sitting away a few Alan's friends on the Saturday had a few drinks on that and them because I didn't know why I got to see the incident one like I said I'm going to get to see this you know what I mean so I decided I got to be Alan's cousin to his friends, went up and there's no incident but I'm going what the fuck's happening I mean this has been promised you know what I mean my family has been promised there's going to be an incident outside that night club what's going on you know what I mean like so I actually had the phone 101 and when I was actually phone 101 two police cars actually turned up and they turned up I'm going mad at this time like I've had a few drinks and I'm kicking the fence and I'm swearing at the police but the fuck's the answer man you know what I mean like what's going on here because the headquarters isn't actually in front of his five headquarters and the police headquarters and they've got more than one incident one and they actually turned up and what they started to do was actually hand out posters on that but half an hour after I left I got a phone call when I see the police left as well so on the night when the last Alan was seen for a body just to disappear or someone just to go missing was there no traces of DNA was around the sniffer dogs or anything like that out there to try and track it down or try and track a scent down or no no forensics nothing um because it was quite strange how you actually mentioned that because one of Alan's friends at the engagement party Alan left his jacket there and obviously he's after C1 that night he left it up on Leslie at the engagement party so we only had his t-shirt on he said sticks night club and then we go to his jacket handed in the next day and the police were never interested in contacting collecting that jacket or using the sniffer dogs when you're watching the footage of the last steps Alan how's your what are you thinking then when you're watching that footage the last time you've seen Alan what's going through your mind it's it's just horror right you know I mean because I can see some of Alan's friends down that beach you know I mean he's just and some of their friends actually headed to a party later on that night um people see me think I'm leaving all Alan's friends for Alan my son is disappearing but it's not true I mean I know where most of my son's friends were I'm more interested in the ones who actually headed to that party that night and just to watch that I mean each time I share it I just feel I'm not telling you to if I'm the police I'm not telling the truth you know what I mean like because I know Alan was still there and I know for a fact that even if he's sitting in the wall for 30 odd minutes just have a flag to talk to the boss if you know what I mean he's going to head off um head off somewhere um because it's cold the only one that's t-shirt on but um by the time limit of the way Hings worked after watching all that footage there was a major disturbance in part and place and people were running about screaming and shouting and then and last is like hysterical screaming and and that's where the party was and uh and we've heard so many rumors Alan actually went there and and this was this this was Hampton and that party gone off and this is only it's about a 15 minute walk from sticks you know what I mean so even the time frame works like we are and still being present at sticks you know what I mean because I left it the cc's tv actually shows Alan leaving that 202 a.m 202 a.m so if he did hang about for a while and everything kicked off around barren place and clonwraff is at quarter three in the morning it just makes sort of sense like I suppose it probably went because at the party which is so strange because these people these friends were always posting social media um parties and pictures and that nobody's phones were working that night nobody's seen that one that night um it's just like they were talking to the police when they broke their phone when the last cc said that they broke their phone that's why she never posted any pictures the other one says she was spiked um some drug at sticks nightclub even though she was on social media uh on twitter and all that and we still got proof of sin on the police and all that um just to wear their their actions and everything after the element missing the guy at the party actually closed his facebook down on that sunday i'm missing you know i mean that was him he stopped having parties ever again um I've got messages proving that Alan was in the vicinity two people talking to each other who was it I mean Alan was in that street um I've been in points to these same people and what even get to say even stranger was him when Alan one of Alan's friends but actually one of one of our friends actually got a tmr i don't know if you know what that is it's the tenants meeting room each came in gone rough as his one so we got the tenants meeting room which was in mastodone here in gone rough as um one of our friends arranged this so it was like sort of a base for certain things like this for Alan and one of his friends said that a party walked in just a week later and says you're never going to find them he was at a party you know what I mean and the strangest thing uh strangest thing is like everybody seemed to have left at five o'clock and uh this so this guy's here alone with first lassie and Woody's this side today you know he decides to go away and get a pickup truck you know i mean like this last thing any guy would do you know i mean he's left by a bird you know i mean uh drunk whatever you know i mean just shoot and people are saying like yeah he's actually to Alan away in a dub talent a landfill site which he's dad which he's dad actually owns um is just i've been saying i've been point sadly so it's the rumors then what actually happened for the body it disappears because you were saying earlier that people were saying one line that it's it's the stubborn to say but he was chopped up and fed to pigs yeah but they i heard that quit a few times and and um you don't know what you believe me it's just the fact i mean this is where the nightmares and things like a community place in your head that i mean because all the rumors like you've had and that and that's probably the most disturbing one of all if you've been getting trolled or anything because i've had a lot of people on who who have got social media to get try and get answers for certain other circumstances and others like horror stories and stuff like that but i mean getting trolled from people saying nasty things people who've lost kids people who've done other things and they've been getting trolled from people who've you received a lot of that yeah but like there was one one special one instrument i mean a special one i call him a complete fucking tool um extreme john mackinroy eh he actually said he kidnapped my son and tortured him and ran 240 000 votes through his body and killed him um yeah he actually i think he got an eight month prison sentence for that then he told my family again um and then he actually got another eight months prison sentence for that and he got another three months prison uh prison sentence on top of that which is to run concurrent eh first setting fires regarding an old woman who's threatened an old woman in that eh first fire reason and for some reason the justice system let him out a month later i mean like i'm going a lot better man this guy's going to be a month you know i mean like especially well six months or something like and but he's out let him out a month later and what he does is eh he goes down to england and eh he tells somebody else and um he ends up in jail again and he gets to jail and he tells somebody else and he gets another like sentence you know i mean he's just like spreading to rape someone and eh he's a pedophile a pedophile hunter group um i was actually talking to a guy craig and eh and he basically said eh damn they're going to eh he's going to rape his daughter you know i mean so this is he actually got charged with a kick you know i mean eh because he punched him you know i mean because i could have been there that day because i was basically invited you know i mean because i would have done me and punched him eh but the most serious one was eh it turned it to a 15 year old boy who's the percent you've sent me pictures eh knives and eh he said he's going to stab me on your fart bastard eh how does it know i know who your son is eh how do you how do you feel that i know he's fucking asshole is where you're hoping eh i'm going to get you fat man i know we stay you know i mean he started naming a street in that and then i don't stay in that street could i brine i mean but i did i did know who eh i was Monk Waffa who actually stayed himself you know what i mean so he's done his homework you know what i mean this young lad but we didn't know if he's a young lad at the time he could have been anyone 20 30 40 50 you know these fake profiles eh fake profiles because there's so many of them so we keep on like repeating them and eh one of the one of my family members stupidly replied to me you know what i mean and what that does is that opens up all my family you know what i mean so feels it yeah and eh but the police were so concerned about this thing they had the police the police had a car outside of my front of my house at the back of my house and it was like um i wouldn't say i was living in fear like i was just wouldn't it so your sons went missing but you're loving fear people are making threats to watch it yeah yeah well no no is that a loving fear so i know what you're saying but it's in your conscience mind that i you don't know who the fuck sit behind that computer but exactly they are all dafties and it's easy to say but they're all kibboards man i don't that's what i mean i mean they're just out there to make things people if the young boys it is sick as it is it might be for a laugh but if and try to say bad things but there's some sick cunts out there he was the he was beyond sick you know i mean like the things he was saying like you know i mean allen's here allen's in the water not you know i mean you know i mean fuck i'm he's a me prick and whatever you know i mean just everything everything he could possibly say he did he did obviously did get to me you know i mean go to all my family you know i mean as a result i put cctv in my house and that you know i mean you just because i'm out there searching answers to what's happened to my son and um as what's happening is these people coming along just make it so harder for you you know i mean but they're never going to stop me you know i mean like i mean nothing's going to stop me certain for my son allen i mean it was six years on and you're still fighting you're still fighting to get answers to trying because you've got another you've got other kids and i know allen was just turned 30 last month yes um how were you then when it obviously turned 30 how were you how were you in the family then uh that this year's been exceptionally hard i mean especially when you reach an age of 30 i mean that's a milestone in your life you know i mean it's like 25 50 you know you should be settled down with children by that time maybe no children you might be still enjoying yourselves i mean but it's it's been a really hard one this year um um i don't know it's just each year it gets harder and the thing is you can't move on with your life you know i mean you're sitting in here going and people go out maybe 10 goes by you know i mean things get easier and easier but it never does you know i mean things get harder each day it goes on you know i mean and you just go because all you want is answers and i'm looking at allen's moments and i watch her cry sometimes and i can't even if i get a hug it doesn't take the pain of me you know i mean and it's it's it's that i fuck it's horrendous to watch you know i mean just and my daughter amy she's actually dating counseling or that as well she can go try to be a go to be a counsellor she's working and i'm really really proud of her and but sometimes she has a bad day and she'll phone me up eh crying on the phone you know that and uh and i'll go look your body and we drink a lot on that you'll be able to eat you know i mean just just relax a little pass you know they're just feeling you it down in there because because he doesn't want to phone the mum because he doesn't want to upset her mum you know i mean and uh so well it's funny like we just like we do things separately but as a family we're still a unit you know i mean we're stronger than we ever have been um it's just i love my kids you know and then i'm sitting there and i'm missing i'm growing up and because i'm fighting for justice one boy and how can for anybody watching Alan what would you say to them you know it's maybe go some information or maybe too scared to come forward or two because people are scared to make a move if they know information yeah but but what would you say to them if anybody ever did know anything or watched this that could maybe help you try and move on and i just want them to think if it's one of their family members if it is their son or their daughter could you imagine living like that for over six years no no more no no more your son or daughter is eh knowing the worst it's actually happened to them and eh you've got no closure you can't move on with your life every day is a fight to get to bed i mean the sleepless nights um watching your family suffer around about you can you imagine that pain i mean and if you didn't know anything just come forward to the police and there's so many ways to do it for missing people really anonymously 800 i mean no 100 number eh there's so many ways to actually end this which are facebook pages and stuff Alan eh my son's actually got a facebook page ehm they say called justice for Alan Bryant jr it's got 68 000 members on it and ehm the members on my son's page ehm they're constantly giving my family support and all that and ehm ehm they're always i mean they're always that that's what keeps me going you know i mean known you've got support you've got support than haters Alan and yeah does it matter what you're doing life these bastards have always hate so i've learned that ehm i've learned that with trolls ehm yeah fuck the cameras man that's that's what i mean i mean you got a few bad comments on the page i mean don't take it personally yeah i mean it's it's simple just block them move them out i mean i've actually met a few well known stars now who've actually been trolled as well you know what i mean everybody gets them i mean everybody it's just no matter how grim the story no matter how happy the story i mean nothing they're there they're no happy with their own life and the other shitebags and i'll say it and i'll anybody would face somewhere but they they just hide behind their screening type away sitting in their their pants just they're just low life just hating life yeah just laugh at them pricks i'll call them like i don't know it's come to society you know me like a low life a pun life pun life but you're always going to get them you know i mean but as i say like it's just like you'll get certain ones that'll come along well obviously the the apple car as you say like but um but the one liner's not yeah i mean i don't i don't bring a word about them they don't get to me you know as sad as it is but you did get used to them you did get used to what i mean so six years on allen and your son's never been found do you ever feel some days that you might walk through the door never no never so in your mind look me at such a horrible question but do you believe allen was murdered that night i believe allen was murdered that night shortly after he left a nightclub yeah yeah i've got it out and uh i mean we've distributed over a thousand posters um we'll actually put an stv advert out um which cost over two thousand five hundred pound they meant a couple of small ones uh my son allen's i actually got the local press which is important because it keeps the members of the local not mean like the local community aware about allen and aware that allen's still missing um my son is never going to walk in the store he's never going to we're never going to see him again all we want to do is actually find him and um this has been the major tabloid he's coming to effect when i have when they actually publish things about allen i do believe us when you get pressure the police actually get pressured and to keep pressure on the police you know i mean to keep them looking for him for allen is is is always going to be my focus my son's never going to walk through the door again my son was murdered that night and people in this town know it certain people in this town know it and they're too scared to come forward for some reason um but as i say like i've seen by the never shoes i mean i have my what my family are dealing with they were coming to police they would have talked to the police one time ago so you're just trying to keep creating noise you tend to see when you're creating mere noise about your son the polo start helping more yeah as much as listening there's always going to be bad coppers but there's always going to be good as well if you came across people that are willing to help you and put their neck in the line and put your fingers in the boundaries eh well everybody's like see it's funny that you talk about my son's page and i was talking about my son's page here and there's quite a lot of people on my son's page who've been in trouble with the police and that before and that like you know so it's an open main field fuck that copper's the worst of all i mean just because they've actually been in trouble with the police that i mean i mean you kind of heard that against the police you've done something like you've been done that you know and uh no i came across and the the police on the beat and that eh each time i've met them they've been brilliant i mean really supportive on that they've really had nothing to do with my son's investigation it's the kind of office the id and the major investigation team eh i've not i've never had anything against the local lobby eh as i say i've talked to him they come up and they there's some of them say things like i can't repeat you know what i mean because like they believe things was hard was hard as well ehm but not at local police have been big good like because it's it's only natural that you're angry towards everybody and anybody towards the case so for you moving yourself own Alan is it just non-stop for you then just everyday is focusing on trying to get some answers for yourself so you can eventually move on with your life if i find it with Alan is what's happened to him that's the day i'll be able to move on in my life because Alan Alan's took up my life and i mean i get praise for things like oh you're done growing you're proud of yourself and things like that and i don't take praise well you know i mean like it's playing i don't take take well at all because i've not found my son i've i've still feel my son you know i mean i mean there's a matter you can't if you want that mate i know it's it's easy to say but you can't if you want that no i mean i've not found another i mean you started to go you're done growing keeping on the public eye and eh it doesn't mean anything to me i've not found another hopefully one day mate you get your answers and because we spoke earlier and that's what you're wanting you're wanting a grave or something you can visit and it's brightening you that you can't do that i don't care if anybody gets prosecutor if i get my boy aim and then i've got mum you know like then i could move on in my life and eh my family can move on in my life and eh i'd like to see my my Alan's mum suffer like us every day and like going holiday with my family i mean i've been away two days and over six years you know i mean and that was actually a gift from a friend which is which wasn't far away and eh he's my boy he's my first born child and he don't give up me a child must have been jealous of it was me you know i mean so i'm not going to stop right so mate so we'll leave all your links to Alan's facebook page is there any numbers you want us to leave for then Alan we'll put email address he's well there isn't any more dressing it's operation toner you'll probably find that my son's page and there's just normal numbers eh they're like crime stoppers and the missing people you know i mean like 116 000 000 i mean there's so many ways of people when actually in contact with the police and and that's all i mean as much as i've got as much as i know the police have built my son and i don't trust him one inch um but i've got to keep on bleeding for the members to come forward for information to contact the police you know i mean to to give them that information you know i mean yeah isn't anything you'd like to finish up on Alan i just want to thank everyone for over the past six years you know just for their good thing to support that you know i mean especially my son's page forget about your toes now i mean they've been brilliant you know i mean and uh so many people have become into my life and they're just helping this you know i mean helping me like because i couldn't do it myself and i've skipped i've got one's land and one is Janet and one is Sharon and there's more than that there's Dan and so many of them just just help me you know i mean people move on but you know i mean but i can't invite them everyone and i feel their support i mean what they're doing i'll stand on and help keep Alan in the public eye because to me that's all i'm ours and to keep Alan out there uh to keep him out there in the press uh now but he doesn't get forgotten about and we the police don't forget about him and he means the police still need to concentrate on finding what's happened to my boy well Alan prefer to bring us out your home in turn as your story and try to get more awareness to get some answers for yourself i really appreciate it and um walking says keep grinding it out mate keep keep working towards trying to get your answers mate god bless you brother and anything i can help will you know i'm here for you i appreciate that you know worries thank you well that's not met


Welcome everybody, I'm Brad Topol, this is Tong Lee, Mark Volcker, we are here to talk about the Open Stock Interoperability Challenge and the interoperability work group updates. The adventure continues, so if you look at the interop challenge, what were we looking at? Wait for vendors to demonstrate, this is bigger, I can't read it on your screen, I can't read the half size. You want to step over, see that? That would be brilliant, I can do that, much easier. So I can actually read this now, so wait for vendors to demonstrate their clouds the way they work with core applications, basically it was a holistic approach, in the original interop challenge, what do we want to prove? Well, we wanted to prove that we had interoperability with OpenStack and we wanted to prove that one of the things we were getting dinged on by the analysts was, well, let's see us run some enterprise applications. So we generated reference applications, workloads, these are all publicly available in our repository, we were starting to work with the app ecosystem work group and do some work there, and as we had challenges that were identified, as we found other people that wanted to be participating, we included them as well. So we grew a really nice community way back when, again when we first started this out, what did we look at? We looked at some Docker swarm and we looked at LAMP stack, just some nice applications and we hit a lot of bumps, right? You can see on the right what we were trying to make, a lot of the key ref stack capabilities we wanted to retest and make sure everything was working, so all the things you'd expect to see in an enterprise app, the VM provisioning, security rule management, volume creation attaching, detaching, public and private IP addresses, load balancing, network security rules, lots of interesting stuff and of course software install on top of OpenStack. If you look at what we proved in phase one, we showed that the cloud ecosystem was interoperable, we had 16 companies, they took the stage to demonstrate live portability of the workloads, we had a lot of good press, a lot of good analysts from Barcelona when we did this. So then again when we started phase two, we went to the community for input, that seemed to be the most fair way to say really what do we need to focus on for interoperability and you can see where all the greens are, right? The community came back, the folks that were interested really wanted to see Kubernetes, really wanted to see NFV. Then we came to phase two and we got a lot of requests, a little shock to the team, we had people merely on a very calm road map of Kubernetes and very quickly we were asked to jazz it up, jazz it up meaning why don't you try a CoroS image and get out of your comfort zone of an Ubuntu image and why don't you think about running multi-cloud and cockroach DB on top, wouldn't that be cool? And you know the foundation, it's their keynote stage and if you want to be on their keynote stage you're going to take their input in their direction. So they set the bar very, very high and I know it caused all of us a little bit of stress. I don't know, Mohamed, you seem pretty calm, nothing stresses you, but some of us were very stressed and kept very busy. Now in the background and there was another presentation on this, there was the NFV work. So there was still NFV work, it didn't make the main stage, there was a separate presentation for that here, but a lot of cool stuff going on in the NFV space to show interoperability when you take open stack and you apply it to that domain, those workloads. So it didn't make the main stage but incredibly cool stuff going on, very cool voice over IP demos kind of things and calling people on the, a lot of cool stuff going on in the NFV work as well. Again, how do you do this?  So it's a little different than your traditional NoSQL databases that get scaled by giving up on transactions and having eventual consistency or what have you. So it's a different model, it's pretty interesting. And of course, Kubernetes, the key things for making sure open stack is interoperable, we got to find the right tools. There's a lot of different tools out there for automated deploy. And we can all have a theoretical conversation, a philosophical conversation on which automated deploy tool is best. But when it's time to get this gentleman up on stage and this gentleman over here up on stage and these two great folks up on stage and say what's gonna work, we all gonna run the same automated deployment. What's gonna work on all 16 clouds? Ansible really becomes the answer that works on all the clouds. There are some other options out there that we're happy to talk about. So we can kind of do a little stream of consciousness. Well, somebody say, well, why didn't you use open stack heat?  Maybe a couple hands go up, not a lot. And again, when your measurement is 16 people are gonna have to run this on stage, well, you toss it out. There's also another great tool called Terraform. Terraform is nice if you need a layer to connect to different cloud infrastructures, but it had some issues. So on some of the clouds we had, they had multi version endpoints for their compute services. Well, when Terraform saw that, it kind of freaks out and goes, I don't know what to do. There's version two, version 2.1, yeah, right? So we had several clouds that they couldn't use Terraform and that bug had been around in Terraform for quite a while. The other thing that I know Tong kept explaining to me over and over and over was, well, I can do this work in Terraform, Brad. But what about the software config on top? I'm gonna end up using Ansible for that. And so now I've got this one tool underneath that doesn't run on all the clouds and then I've got this Ansible on, and they're still gonna do this Ansible on top. If you really liked me, we'd use Ansible for everything. It runs on all the clouds. I can do the one piece this way and then I can easily put the Ansible on top. And I'm sure Tong told me that five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten times. I got it on the first time, but it's good to hear and have to force to explain it to me again. So a lot of lessons that we learned and a lot of choices there, but beginning everybody up on stage forces you to make realistic decisions on not the theoretical of how what could be interoperable, but what has to be interoperable. There's some other details here on the NFV. Tong, do you wanna cover some of that real fast? Cuz you were a little more involved in just that piece. I don't know too much about NF, we'll upload. Yeah, so just basically- We have another session though. Yeah, they have a whole other session. But with the NFV, there were just certain components that the NFV folks run. There's certain extra tools that they use cuz you wanna make phone calls and stuff like that. So you gotta get the right stuff set up. It's a little more complicated, but it's very interesting. A lot of great participants, some were from the first one and they came back, we didn't scare them all off. How many participants are in the room? One, green shirt guy? Yeah, anybody else? Only two survived, right? So if you look at this group, nice mix. We had room for some new folks. We had some continuing folks, veterans, like the folks you see on the stage here that just wanted to do this again. And it was kind of neat, as you get better at what you're doing, it's easier that we could have some late comers come in and actually be able to participate. Wouldn't have been as possible to do that in phase one because it was a little rougher patched learning and getting all the things worked out. But with phase two, we'd figured out a lot of the best practices. And you'd gone through that first level of triage of people being able to run. So we didn't have some late comers where people showed up, pick on some of my platform nine, came in really late. Wind River, wind came in incredibly late and said, hey, you got that one last spot, we can do this, we want it. And we said, sure, right? So that was kind of fun to get all the numbers up. Just an overview of the workload. Again, you got your classic, I assume everybody familiar with Kubernetes? Anybody not familiar with Kubernetes? I know Tom in the back there knows Kubernetes incredibly well. Kubernetes is a nice model. You've got a master node, you've got worker nodes. And you essentially are scheduling these things called pods. Pods contain containers. Think Docker, right? So these pods contain containers that all kind of are related to each other. And they can share a mounted volume and share an IP address that comes in. And a really nice way in Kubernetes to be able to have a declarative model to say I want eight replicas. And if something fails, Kubernetes will recognize it. And if a couple fail, it'll bring your replicas back up to eight. You don't have to do a lot of work. A lot of built-in nice features with Kubernetes and auto scaling. And so if you look at the model here, you've got your master node running in a VM. You've got your other VMs provisioned. And they have what are called the Kubernetes worker nodes. And they've got the pods that are running there. And you can attach your volume storage to the VMs, giving the pods the volume storage there. So a lot going on there. And those are the types of characteristics that we were able to worry about and test. So you can see Kubernetes install and config. The database system deploy, the dependency install. The neat things here that were a little different, we used a CoreOS image. So you get a little bit of the Docker for free, but then you lose the Python, right? So there's something to think about. When you're dealing with Ubuntu, Python's typically there, depending on the version. You go to CoreOS. And differences, we're gonna make sure the Python's there, but the Docker's there, so let's beat certain things up. I don't know if you wanted to add anything to that. Any other wonderful Easter eggs with CoreOS? All right, well, good. Got a nice wiki page. Keep all our details out there, meetings and what have you. I can assure you we're gonna take a little break after the summit for a while. We'll assess after that and go after that. So we get a nice wiki page. Everything's done out in the public. Workload repositories, you get to see the Ansible scripts. You see how much it is just the same script and a few configuration pieces for the endpoint, credentials, etc. And good best practices here that if you wanna deliver things across multiple clouds, you can go look what's there. We've got bug tracking and these types of things. So lessons learned, I'm gonna hand over to Tong, Tong instrumental and making this real, so Tong. Thank you, Brad. Cuz we have done two times the interoperability challenge. We have learned a lot during the course of a year, I think, right? Two times. In the first phase, we actually learned a lot of stuff. On this slide is actually most of things we learned from the first phase. We were able to very quickly to do the second workload is based on what we have learned in the past. Otherwise, that wouldn't be that fast. So I just iterate what's on the slide. Ansible actually is a really nice tool to do this type of work. I'm sure a lot of cloud operators use Ansible. When you're trying to actually deploy software and do some configuration, when you have your machines already up running, it's a very good tool to use. Brad mentioned Terraform. I mean, what we find is that Terraform is very good for provisioning for your cloud, regardless if it's Amazon or it's an open stack or even Google Cloud. You can use Terraform provision a lot of nodes in parallel very fast. But when you come to configuration and software that you want to run on SVMs, it's a little bit difficult. So that's the reason we pick actually the Ansible. We did try both in the first phase. The other problem we actually find by doing this from multiple clouds, is that the neutral implementation is very different from cloud to cloud. We find to use shade actually can help you a lot, not only on the Narokan side, but also on some other components. I think VMware actually taught us this next lesson. We assumed that when you have a volume attached, it's a VDB, but that's not the case for all the cloud. So we added some parameter in the configuration file to allow the workload script actually to specify, I mean to attach the right volume to the watch machines you created. Actually, I'm not sure if OpenStack actually can be configured to make sure that the volume name will be always consistent, no? You can't? Nope. No. No, so part of that's a guest OS behavior. And some of that is attributed to the hypervisor based on, like if you're using Libbert, Libbert actually talks to the guest OS to plumb that into the VDB. On other hypervisors, that may show up as just a regular vanilla SCSI adapter, like an LSI logic adapter. So the way that shows up to the guest kernel is a little different. Okay, that's great. And I mean, this sort of little things you will have to actually do it to find that it could be different from cloud to cloud. The other thing we learned that, you know, we're trying to use many different open systems for VM, right? I mean, even for bundle, you have many different versions. In the early version, when you have your VM up running, your network is ETH0, but now when you use the newer ones, now suddenly the network interface card is not called ETH0. So you have to be prepared to figure out all this dynamically.  So those sort of configurations, you can assume you always get that. What's interesting about a couple of those is that they're actually not open stack problems, per se. You know, part of what we were doing with this interoperability challenge was showing hybrid cloud workloads. We actually took a workload, ran it on a bunch of different clouds, and then made them all work together, right? So when I talked to folks out in the field that have maybe open stack in their data center, and they're also using a little AWS, or a little GC, or a little, you know, whatever other cloud, in most cases, they have those same issues, right? If I run a Ubuntu 16.04 guest OS image in a cloud somewhere, it might use a predictable network interface naming. And so now I have ENS32 instead of ETH0, right? So these are problems that are actually pretty consistently something that you'd run into when you're trying to orchestrate applications across any set of clouds. And what we've done with the arm-ability challenge was just kind of flush those out for an open stack world. But these are actually things that are pretty typical for people that are writing cross-clad applications no matter what cloud they're using. Right, so those lessons we learned actually are very valuable if you really develop your applications based on various different cloud. The other thing we learned is the network virtualization. You know, not all clouds support floating IP, the concept.  Well, that's not always the case. I mean, that actually makes me just remember something that we didn't put, I think, on the slides. When we create those workloads, we actually purposely create a template for the configuration file. Okay, then we provide the examples of how the configuration file should look like, what should be in there, and what kind of value you should have. Now, when we run this thing on multiple clouds, we just tell the operators that, okay, well, for your cloud, you just need to make a copy of this sample configuration file that makes a little change. Then just use that configuration file. You don't have to, you know, go in there, change any of those workload scripts. So you just create a new configuration file and the workloads start running. So I think that actually is very nice. So you don't really touch the code. You just make a configuration change. And all the command that actually you run different phases of the workload is absolutely identical. I thought that was a very good decision we made. Okay, wow, move on. We have more lessons learned. Most of those items, at least here, actually from our Phase 2 workload. In the Phase 1, we actually didn't try and we used the CoreOS images. Then, as Brad mentioned earlier, the Foundation asked us to, you know, try different OS than we started using CoreOS. Of course, we're still trying to support Ubuntu and other distributions. That I find that when you use the cloud in it to set up the host name, you have to be very careful. You want to use the fully qualified domain name, which is just one little period at the end. If you don't do that, then you get different host name if you use different images. So that actually gave me a lot of grief and it creates actually quite a lot of discussion among, you know, operators. And funny that later I find on an OpenStack mailing list that actually operators start talking about, okay, now when we configure OpenStack, do we use the DHCP domain parameter or not? So those things are actually very valuable to operators. What is the right thing to do when you configure your cloud? Okay, so then when you use the CoreOS, there's no Python. What are you going to do when you're trying to use Ansible, right? So you have to try to figure out a way and the CoreOS also doesn't have the, like the Ubuntu software repository, then you can just do a PT install and it will go, right? That's not the case. You have to find a different way to actually bootstrap your VM and then your Ansible will start working, right? I mean, luckily there are a lot of bootstrap code and open source code available. It just happened and I find the one actually contributed by VMware that worked great. So all the instructions also in a document as part of our workload. Yeah, these were, a couple of these examples are kind of interesting in that we made the workload a little bit more complicated than it necessarily had to be by supporting multiple different guest operating systems. And that was partly just user preference and trying some new things. You could be very prescriptive on the images. We could have actually picked a standard image for everybody to run. But what we see in the real world is that everybody kind of has their own little spins on different images. A lot of folks maybe have security patching requirements. So they want to run the very latest security patches for Ubuntu 16.04 or maybe they need an older Linux kernel for something that they're doing. So these are, again, kind of real-world problems that aren't necessarily specific to OpenStack. But things that we put in the interoperable workload because there are things that you're going to see in the real world if you try to do cross-cloud workloads. Yeah, thanks, Mark. The other thing we actually... I don't know if other as well script developers actually use. This is taking me a while to figure this out because in the phase one, we want to create... We create actually multiple VMs, but we didn't really paralyze this process. We just create one VM after the other. We use the Ansible OpenStack cloud module. You can imagine on some of the cloud to create a VM actually itself takes a lot of time. So that's part of the reason why the first workload, the LAMP stack we did took about 8 to 10 minutes to finish. Most of the time, I just spent creating VMs. Then for this second interoperable cloud, we actually paralyze that. We created the virtual host, and each virtual host actually runs exactly the same script to create the VMs. Now, we basically paralyze this process. So we can create 20 or 30 VMs, use pretty much the same time you create just one VM. So I'm pretty pride about this finding that we use for this workload. How we actually do that, we can take a look at the workload, the code. Of course, you can also talk to me if you're interested. Then our colleagues from China actually contributed the next patch that added the profile timing plug-in to the workload. So if you enable that, when you run the workload at the very end, the workload will produce a very nice report that shows all the times actually spent on particular tasks. By default, we'll list the top 20 tasks that spend the most of time. So this is a very nice tool you can use to figure out actually where in a process you spend most of the time. You can fine tune that if you find, okay, well, when I attach the VM, I attach the volume into the VM, it takes most time. You probably can take a look at it and say, hey, why is happening that way? So it's very nice. You probably know that the workload we did for this time is the Kubernetes on top of OpenStack plus the cockroach DB. So what I find is that, you know, Ansible OpenStack plus Kubernetes can give you a very nice cloud environment, right? You get the VM from OpenStack, you get containers from Kubernetes just running on top of that, and Ansible give you automation, right? It's the tool you need to really run your cloud. Of course, you know, we just prove that you can use those open source tools to create the workload that can run on multiple clouds, which produce exactly the same result that we have witnessed actually yesterday on stage. So I think I'm running out of time. Did we talk about this already? Did it deliverables? Pretty much. So let's talk real quick about the REST stack piece of this. So the inability challenge is really looking at workload portability. So can a real-life given set of software be run on multiple clouds, right? There's another piece of the puzzle here which is consistent API behavior between OpenStack clouds, because OpenStack clouds, it turns out, can be configured a lot in different ways. So as part of this, we actually asked all the participants in the REST challenge to go run REST stack against their clouds and verify what APIs they support and what tempest tests they pass, and whether or not they adhere to the most recent interoperability guidelines from the OpenStack Foundation. And so that was kind of a good data point for us because we actually got information on 15 real-life clouds, public clouds, private managed clouds, and private distributions. And those have been posted as well. So that's kind of the other piece of the puzzle is looking at the consistent API behaviors. You know, we have one workload here. Turns out there are a whole lot of other workloads. Some of them use different APIs than the ones that we did. So it was kind of the sort of next step in looking at interoperability there. And for those interested, there's a couple more sessions on the interoperability guidelines coming up. I think the next one is at 240 today, if I'm not mistaken. So be sure to tune into those. We'll skip over the rest of the time. You want to talk to China? I think, yeah, Tom uses yours. Okay. Well, I think, well, this year, I have traveled to China a couple of times each time. I was there. I feel like the OpenStack is heating up. A lot of people are really interested. They want to run OpenStack for their company or enterprise or government. A lot of interest. That's part of reason, actually, with Mafei. He's sitting right there. It's help. We created this OpenStack interop challenge, China chapter, the past February. Then we have people from 10 different companies to join at the chapter. We used the very first and abstract workload. We run those workload on those clouds in China. Then we used that, actually, in the April Beijing Global Open Source Summit. You can see those pictures. That was very cool. Oh, you want to talk about it? Yeah, I'd like to take this one. I just wanted to give some credit to a lot of people who put a lot of effort into this. Obviously, Tom was the rover, making sure everybody had any questions they had. He helped them out. Then when the Cockroach DB Surprise came out, he had to go figure out some Cockroach DB. Obviously, Mark as well and all the others, Mark was instrumental as he was in the first phase, making sure things worked and good decisions and being a liaison to the ref stack side and making sure the whole overall view was consistent between the workload and the challenge and what else was going on in interoperability and leading the work group. A lot of good faces, names here that a lot of folks did it twice and Egley and Roman, new folks like Muhammad, stepping up, right? And it was quite a thing. So thanks to everybody who got involved, a lot of extended work effort that people did to make this happen. That's up to... We want to cover Mark, this is your turn. Yeah, so we wanted to throw in a couple of updates about the interoperability working group, which is the group that produces the interoperability guidelines that I mentioned earlier. Like I said, there's a full session on that later today and a couple more tomorrow. But a couple quick blurbs. We asked the participants to run the ref stack suite against their clouds. Most of them were looking at the 2017-01 guideline, which was approved by the board of directors earlier this year. We rolled those guidelines out on a six month cadence, so the next one is due out in August this year. And we're working on the scoring of new capabilities for that right now. We're also looking at a couple of interesting things. One of the workloads that we talked about today was the NFV workload. Traditionally, what we've done in the interoperability work group is focus on sort of core capabilities for almost all open stack clouds. What we're actually seeing now as open stack is such a flexible system that it's finding a lot of interesting use cases and niches that it turns out to be a really good match for. One of which, as an example, is NFV. So we're actually looking at creating new programs for those verticals, because the way an NFV cloud is built and behaves is maybe a little bit different from, say, a general purpose compute cloud, right? There may be things like PCI pass-throughs that have new malware scheduling, maybe advanced data plane performance, other things like that. So we're actually looking at some new programs to create interoperability for those. We're also looking at add-on programs. If you look at what's in the interoperability guidelines today, it's really the components that are super widely deployed across most open stack. Public clouds, distributions, private managed solutions, and what people are actually using it, even if they roll around, right? Turns out there are things that are less used, and interoperability for those components is still super important for the people that actually do run them. So if 16% of the population is running Designate, for example, they really actually care about interoperability for Designate. But it's kind of one of those things where we're looking at creating add-on programs for components so that there's interoperability for those individual projects as well, rather than sort of just the core set. And then we're also looking at, we talked a little bit today about, part of the interoperability challenge today was embracing a larger ecosystem. We're working with folks like CoreLS, working with folks like CockroachDB, working with the Kubernetes community. We're also looking at doing that with some of these vertical programs and add-on programs as well. I know we had some discussions with folks and those are continuing now. I think we're pretty close out of time, but hopefully we made it or two for questions if there are any. And there's mics here. Four minutes. Rocky. I don't know, we'll have to see. I know someone you may know, Annie Lai has some ideas, and so I promised to meet with her and see what we're looking at. So we're going to take a breather unless you all have suggestions off the top of your head. There has been a lot of interest in NFV workloads, and we didn't get a chance to show it on stage because we only have about 10 minutes. When Edward Sudden is the next act, turns out people just kind of give you the crook. So maybe we'll do something in that realm. NFV is especially popular right now in Asia-Pac and we are going to Sydney for the next summit. So nothing decided, but it's something that we've already done some legwork for and would certainly be geographically pertinent. So we'll see. Monty had a session yesterday about pulling deployer configuration specifics out of, you know, on a static URL out of the cloud. I'm just curious how that would, how much of that information would be useful to automatically pull into the configs that you had, right? Things like we do floating IPs, we don't do, you know, I'm just curious how much of an overlap there is there. Yeah, so discovery has kind of been a hot topic for a while now, because like I said, one of the strengths of OpenSack is it's a very flexible system. You know, you can adapt it to a whole lot of things. We kind of make the analogy, it's maybe a little overused, but we make the analogy to Lennox Curl. You know, Lennox started off as kind of a PC operating system, and then it morphed into a data center operating system, but it's also in seatback entertainment units, it's also on my phone. The Lennoxes that you see there are different, even though they're all derived from a common code base. So there are a few things that have been changed in between, right? So as we see OpenSack kind of moving into these more niche places as well, discoverability of how a cloud acts has been a very hot topic with, I know the interop group as well as some of the folks like Monty for a while now. Part of what we're doing here is we chose to use Shade and Ansible, and a lot of that's actually reflected there. Shade will actually make some queries into the cloud to pull some of that information itself. When it gets down to things like, say, IP addresses, or what images are available, or some of the other, like, finer grain details, we'll have to wait and see first when those APIs come into fruition if they do. It's certainly the kind of thing that makes sense for tools to use. And then, too, we actually want to see when that's picked up by the tools ecosystem. Because that's something that we can offer to, say, the Terraform folks or the Ansible folks or the Chef folks or the Puppet folks or the Kubernetes folks or whatever is going to ride on top of OpenStack. Once those things are available, they're actually going to have to consume them, and there'll be a couple of iterations on that. But it's, discoverability is certainly a kind of thing that we would like to do in the future. That also will raise a little bit of concerns on some of the cloud operators about how much information they want to expose through something like that. So those are kind of like some of the tools we have to work through. Anybody else? Sure. Yeah, and if you actually look at the Ansible variables files that we use for these, it's like 20 lines or something. That's horrible today. It could be better, certainly, but it's actually not that bad. Yeah, because it contains some of the Kubernetes configuration parameters as well. So that makes it longer. Okay. I think we are about out of time. So thanks for coming. Thank you.


Thank you Chair for giving us the floor. Mr. Chair, distinguished delegates, on behalf of the Secure World Foundation, I take this opportunity to relate some views on the topic of space exploration and innovation. Exploration-related activities include not just the exploration of outer space, the moon and other celestial bodies, but also their industrial and economic development, which both drives exploration and benefits from it. Any purposeful and long-term presence in space and on celestial bodies will entail civil, scientific, and industrial development. In fact, these activities will likely go hand in hand, more often than any of them will be done alone. As governments pursue space exploration activities and programs, those activities will be carried out in tandem with the private sector through contracts, public-private partnerships, and other forms of cooperation. Today's space sector is one of a growing and increasingly capable suite of stakeholders, including governments, academia, and industry. Government and industry alike are looking to a future where space exploration initiatives result in sustained activities delivering tangible benefits to society. Space exploration also contributes to objectives for developing economic activity in space. Beneficial technological innovation can arise both through government space exploration initiatives and from private sector activities motivated by economic factors. As such, the innovation in space exploration and innovation will entail economically viable activities in space, including the critical role of in situ resource utilization, or ISRU. The ability to access and utilize in situ resources in space is a key component to enable long-term sustained human presence in space. At the same time, space resources utilization could lead to new and better space applications that provide benefit on earth. In this regard, SWF congratulates this committee on the agreement of the mandate and work plan for the working group on legal aspects of space resources activities at this year's meeting of the legal subcommittee. As we noted in our statement to the 61st session of the legal subcommittee, adaptive governance frameworks for space resources utilization must consider and balance a wide range of interests, stakeholders, and activities, including environmental impact, heritage and cultural considerations, non-interference, and safety of operations. As activities related to space exploration become increasingly common, there will be a need to continue to consider the long-term sustainability of those activities. In the near to medium term, the moon is likely to be a focus for human and robotic space exploration activities by both government and private sector actors. This trend will increase the importance of developing principles, norms, and practices for coordination of lunar activities to ensure that those activities proceed in beneficial ways. The lunar environment poses unique operational and sustainability challenges which require consideration of scientific, economic, legal, cultural, and other factors in developing governance frameworks. Discussion at Cofi was under this agenda item on space exploration and innovation will provide an important framework for that consideration. To be sure, however, encouraging innovation to flourish in support of space exploration activities requires a governance philosophy that takes into account the multi-stakeholder nature of space exploration activities in today's context. Thank you for your kind attention.


Bella Hadid is one of the world's most successful supermodels. She's also Palestinian American and one of the most high-profile advocates for Palestinian rights in the United States. This has made her a target of Israel and specifically the official Twitter account for the state of Israel, which this weekend claimed Hadid had advocated throwing Jews into the sea. When celebrities like Bella Hadid advocate for throwing Jews into the sea, they are advocating for the elimination of the Jewish state. This shouldn't be an Israeli-Palestinian issue. This should be a human issue.  Hashtag Israel under attack. Now, this is a really, really serious accusation. Now, Bella Hadid, she has 42 million followers, by the way. If she told her 42 million Instagram followers that Jews should be thrown into the sea, I mean, she should obviously be rightly condemned and presumably she'd lose a lot of her modeling contracts and sponsorship deals. This is a very, very extreme accusation. Now, the problem is she didn't say it. The video that the Israel account was linking to, the screenshot they showed you, was of a live stream by Bella Hadid on her Instagram. Now, it was watched live by 57,000 people. In the video, the supermodel can be seen chanting on a pro-Palestine march in Brooklyn, New York. Let's take a look at the video. You can see if you can see what the Israel Twitter account saw in this video. Nowhere in that video did Bella Hadid advocate for throwing Jewish people in the sea. The official Israel account was called out on this and they replied that the offending statement was at 22 seconds. Hadid said the following, from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free. That's definitely not calling for any Jews to be thrown into the sea, by the way. I mean, I think that's clear enough, but we should talk about the background to this statement because this is a statement which is often chanted at Palestine marches and which has created some controversy. There's been a long-running campaign by the Israeli government and advocates of Israel to say, this is a really anti-Semitic or offensive or divisive or whatever. I want to explain why they say that and why I think it's actually a fine chant. Let's look at the meaning of what it means literally. This is a map of Israel, Palestine. The river is the Jordan River. The sea is the Mediterranean Sea. What people who sing this chant are saying is, from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free. From the river to the sea, that includes what is now the West Bank and Gaza. It also includes what's now Israel and why people think this is controversial is because they're saying it would mean there would be no Israel. If from the river to the sea, Palestine is free, then where does Israel fit into that story? That's how, if you're really, really reaching, you say, oh, well, where's Israel going to be? You're clearly going to throw them in the sea. That's why you've mentioned the sea. That's the reach and that's completely ridiculous.  It doesn't. It historically hasn't, and it also doesn't in the present. So essentially, what that chant is saying is advocating for a one-state solution. Now, some people don't support a one-state solution. Some people support a two-state solution. That's completely fine. But it is also important to be clear what a one-state solution would mean in this context. Historically, for the PLO, for the Palestinian Liberation Organization, what it has meant is a secular democratic state where everyone has one vote, one person, one vote. There isn't a Jewish state and a Palestinian, well, there isn't a Jewish state and an Arab state. There's just Palestine. And anyone in Palestine can have one vote. Jews can have one vote. Palestinians, Arabs can have one vote. Christians can have one vote. It's a secular state. Now, this used to be the position of Yasser Arafat and the Palestinian Liberation Organization. This is what Yasser Arafat said to the UN in 1974. At this point, he was in favour of a one-state solution. So he said, when we speak of our common hopes for the Palestine of tomorrow, we include in our perspective all Jews now living in Palestine who choose to live with us there in peace and without discrimination. So it was very clear. At that point, he was backing from the river to the sea. Palestine will be free. And he said, no one's going to get thrown in the sea, right? Anyone who wants to live here can live here and they can have one vote. Now, ultimately, Yasser Arafat and his Fathafaction abandoned support for a or abandon their commitment, at least for a one-state solution. They signed up to a two-state solution. But that is nowhere near being a consensus among Palestinians. You could also interpret from the river to the sea. Palestine will be free is that Palestinians will be free and have equal rights in whatever state they live in. But the one-state solution is very, very popular among Palestinians and for good reason. They sort of say, one, we're not comfortable having an ethno state on our historic land whereby you have more rights if you're Jewish than if you're Palestinian, if you're non-Jewish, I think very legitimate position. And, you know, that's why they sing this song. You're not calling for anyone to go into the sea. I mean, it's completely defamatory, essentially, from the Israel Twitter account. But I also think it is important to explain what that chart means, why some people find it offensive and why I don't think it is. And I want your thoughts on the chart from the river to the sea. But also, I mean, it's very bizarre seeing a nation state, you know, because it doesn't say it's not called the Israeli, it's just called Israel. So it's just Israel is debating a super model. Like, what's that about?  You know, is there like, does it have to get passed three or four people? Is it just one person in bed at night tweeting from the Israel account while they're on the toilet checking their notifications? No, it's quite worrying. It's no way to it's no way to do diplomacy when you're in the middle of a conflict. In terms of from the river to the sea, I've actually encountered this first hand, I was on sky once Sky News, and to present the perfectly affable guy most of the time, a guy called Nile Patterson, Scottish said, from the river to the seas, anti Semitic, do you support that? Where have you got this idea from? It's anti Semitic. We can say there's a one state solution. We can say there's a two state solution within the 1967 borders. Or we can say there's a two state solution that, you know, is far more favorable to Israel than the 1967 kind of borders. More like today. I mean, most people say that's not really viable as a state for Palestine. But let's just pretend it was. In all of these potential outcomes, Palestine goes from the river to the sea. I said, from the river Jordan to the sea. And again, he had this same thing. I don't know where they get these talking points from Michael. He was like, Yeah, but in the sea, it means like people will be like chucked into the sea.   And I said, it's not anywhere anti Semitic. I mean, if somebody says something anti Semitic, if they could say from the river to the sea, and, you know, we need to kick everybody else out, you're okay. But let me say, Michael, if you're, if you're going to claim that somebody is calling for genocide, you're going to need to back it up. I mean, it's quite a it's, firstly, it's a terrible thing to do. There should be serious consequences. But at the same time, you can't just accuse somebody of doing that lightly without any evidence.  But it's even more ridiculous. Like you say, the fact that's being waged by, you know, Israel's official Twitter account, which earlier today, that same Twitter account, Michael, it had several tweets of just rocket emojis, you know, and you think, well, if Donald Trump in the middle of negotiations with North Korea was doing loads of rocket emojis, he was suspended from Twitter. What has to happen for the Israel account to be suspended from Twitter? Completely absurd. But look, you expect a measure of propaganda from a Twitter channel, trying to advance what it perceives as a nation state's self interest. You don't expect that from media. We've seen that same inaccurate, incorrect claim repeated time after time. Like I say, I was subject to it personally on Sky News. And it's, it's, it's not acceptable. If you're a journalist, you can't just take a statement which doesn't say what you claim it does, and then make accusations against people of supporting genocide. I mean, it's really infantile and childish and really belittles hugely important matters, including genocide, by the way. My God, you know, if there is a genocide, how's the media ever going to report on it properly? If you get something like Rwanda in the mid-1990s, or if you get something like The Shower, you know, from the 1930s all the way through to 1945, these are hugely important matters. They have to be taken more seriously than anything else in journalism.  No, if you're going to say that, if you're going to accuse somebody of that, you need some evidence.