Welcome to another PF Sense. They changed the license stream, but technically this is changing it back to what it was planned to be. Yeah, I'm just doing it as a live stream for a couple of reasons. One, so I don't have to take the time to wholly produce a video, put it scripted out.  And three, so people go, well, did you clear this with NetGate, Tom? Aren't you secretly working for them? Which I don't. And I thought I'd mention that right off the bat, but there's still gonna be people leaving the comments down below because I've been realizing a lot of people seem to be upset with the fact that I am not a crazy angered getting the proverbial pitch forks and forking the project and all kinds of other discussions going on this. But, all right. Halfway through a sentence, all as I said was welcome to another live stream about the PF Sense licensing. And yes, this is just simple living it all live and I wanna make sure answer questions from people. So those are all reasons I'm doing it. So you know it's sincere, you know I'm not scripting it and we're doing it live. It's just faster sometimes to get things out. Now we'll start with what happened for those of you that didn't know or are just waking up to this. And before we even get to what happened, if you are using NetGate hardware, not an issue. This isn't a problem for you. If you're using NetGate hardware, if you have one of the NetGate 6100s, 4100s or all the different NetGate boxes, they already come with PF Sense Plus. There's nothing extra you have to do end of story. This is for in the community specifically, people who are buying it for home. I always say home lab, but it's actually home plus lab. They had different licenses on there. And they have these licenses. I've done videos on this as a topic. If you wanted PF Sense Plus, they had a free license, but the license always had a note that sometime in the future, they would charge $129 for it. So that was in the note from the day one. So people could have stayed and still can to this day, stay with PF Sense CE, which is free. So if you want PF Sense CE, also you can stop watching a video and just use PF Sense CE and say, well, that's what I'm gonna use. Now, this change, of course, rightfully so, was not a great move. The reason they did it is all explained in their blog posts, you know, that you had people essentially these different knockoff manufacturers, hold on, I have one. The companies that make some of these other boxes, if you will, pre-packaging that license on there. And this is obviously a problem. You know, you can't have third-party companies violating license. Now, the arguments I've seen in Reddit is who cares about licenses and stuff like that. I'm like, this kind of matters to developers. And I've talked about this, like NETCATE is a major contributor. And I have my previous video where this was discussed and I'll talk about it later in the video when we cover the topic here. But they're a major contributor to FreeBSD and then everyone benefits from the downstream from that. So I get it. There's definitely a cost to all of that. Dell developers are very expensive people, especially really good ones who can write good code for firewalls. They cost a lot of money. You gotta fund that somehow. NETCATE funds that through the sale of their hardware and of course the PF Sense Plus. Now, let's get over to that change they made. You know, they removed this Homeland Ability for people, which I get it.  I just kind of said, what were you thinking? It summed up well here and they made a harsh move. I mean, I think it's nice and there's not an easy way to do this because they don't just like, they don't make videos like I do. It's not their thing. I get it. And they brought back the TAC light. Now they had mentioned to me that's what they were gonna lean towards and they'd let me know that they'd probably be doing this. And I said, that's fine. They've brought it back, but they're getting rid of the free still. So there's basically the 129 charge that they said would happen sometime in the future has now happened. 129 year, if you want PF Sense Plus TAC light, if you want PF Sense CE, still free. No charge there. So this is the blog post and you know, let me zoom in a little bit, make it a little easier to read but all of this is linked down below. I have a long forum post where I have a lot of detail that I put into it. Probably even more than I'll have in this video. My forums are free to view, free to sign up for. You do require an email address to sign up to keep the spammers from just posting in there. But you can read through all this. It's all linked and you'll find that forum post link where I've been discussing and kind of making a mega thread, if you will, is linked to in the description of this video. Now, this is where we wanna go and talk about, we did not set out to make a commercial fork of the PF Sense project that would be weaponized against us and the community. Recent discoveries called us to question benefitting the work we do. PMSS Plus has been illegally copied, modified and resold to third-party hardware in a cloud and direct violation of our terms and licensing. So completely like within their rights. But I think their reaction was wrong and so do they. And, let me find the exact one. This is the one down side. I gotta make sure I'm reading exactly the right one. So this is, yeah, this is October 30th one. Yeah, right here. This is the word I'm looking for. This is what they said too, when I talk to them. These are their words. I didn't do a video after I had a conversation with them. I wanna wait till they had the blog post out. And then that result is we reacted too quickly in doing so we made mistakes. This is just a human thing. People make mistakes and they see in the outrage of the community. And I directly talked to them and I said the same thing the community's saying here. I didn't defend. Well, you know, they should have gotten rid of it. You know, I was definitely not of that attitude. I was like, well, they should fix this. And then when I got to talk to people directly at Nakeda, I was like, this could been solved with just changing it to 129. And so they've had a lot of feedback and yes, they brought it back for 129. So now you can get the TAC light system in there. Now there's another note here that I think is really interesting. And it's the fact that they are going to update the open SSL 3.012 in both PF Sense Plus and CE. So they're doing the work that it takes to put all that together. And that's no small task. There's another blog post they have specifically talking about that. We're gonna get on this topic here in a few minutes about why that matters so much. And it's pretty much because all your VPNs and lots of other things are based on it. Back over to here though, the going through their details here. So no impact on Nakeda appliance orders. Like I say, how to get TAC light for new installations, a Nakeda source subscription option. If you've already done PF Sense CE Plus home lab with upgraded TAC light subscription, you can make the purchase through the Nakeda store. Just ensure you have the Nakeda identifier handy for a smooth transaction. Please note that existing home lab users who choose not to purchase TAC light subscription will not receive updates when they are released. Now this means you have until, this is a confusing point that I think some people had but you have until that next version of PF Sense Plus. So if you're on PF Sense Plus, but you are going to choose not to do this. You do not want to buy a license. You're not running Nakeda hardware. Okay, then all you have to do is switch back to CE. Simple as that, or wait for the next version of CE that comes out. Because the next version of CE will be out pretty soon. 2309 is coming out relatively soon. And I don't think 129 is an unreasonable amount of money for this for the Plus version, but you don't have to get it. You can get CE still and it's free. And they're updating this problem with the open SSL to version three and both CE, it's not out yet, and the upcoming PF Sense Plus. So back to the topic here. If you want to switch back one more time, I have a video on it. It's really simple to do to roll backwards to the previous version. So if you, no one is locked in there. So it's not a huge deal in some instances here. I feel bad that I suggested everyone switch to it, but anyone who switched to it should have known it's gonna be 129 because I never hid that. That even, it's set it on their page from day one is going to be, it's 129 sometime in the future. Well, it's now that is the future. It would have been a smoother future. And they know this, and we all know this as people who are users of PF Sense. We all are aware that the future would have been better if they just would have said we're just dropping the free and going with the, going with the 129 now. People who have shrugged their shoulders and they would have said, well, they put it in writing since the day they released PF Sense Plus that sometime in the future it's gonna cost 129. And now it does. The downside is there was this little hiccup for a few days where it was not available. So there's actually only a few days of not available. And this is where, well, everything is kind of upset. And I get it, cause they shouldn't have done that. And they apologize for it. And you can forgive them, you can move on, you can use something else. That's really your prerogative to do what you want to do. Oh, you can roll back and put your config of Maximilum Assault and Restory Configuration. Yes, I want to answer some of these questions that are in here is best I can. You bought a 6100 and you can keep the pitch fork in the shed. Yes. Yes, yes, yes. Just a lot of people in comments here. I'm trying to find which ones I can answer real quick before we go a little further. But I think you guys get the idea here that, you know, NetGate is someone who has made mistakes. They fixed the mistakes. Now, one last thing I'll offer for you, and I'm gonna throw this in there. And I don't have a link for this. I'll post it in my forums now that it's gonna be public information. Cause hold on, let me give you something that you will like. I was able to get this or giving it to other people, but they said I could share this in my video and I'm gonna zoom in and Tech Light. This is a TAC-LITE, really simple. You can use this by the way to get this for $99. They said this is good through November. So if you would like to buy it cause it's back on the website, this will get you a discount. There's not anything, this is just a discount code that lasts until the last day in November of 2023. And you get $29 off for each one of these that you buy. Pretty simple, I thought I'd mention that on there. Cause I did, their marketing people said they would offer a discount. I said, okay, what's the discount gonna be? And they didn't know at the time exactly what it was. I think they weren't sure, but they just sent this to me today. And you know, what the blog post came out today, they sent this to me and said, yes, you can use it in the video, you can share it with the crowd.  So $99 for your first year if you want. Just offering a discount code here folks. Now let's finish a couple more comments here. Home users don't even use all the features. $129 a year is too expensive. We'll stick with CE, this day's up to date. Well, and we're gonna talk about a few things related to open sense in a minute. Cause this is gonna be where I have some things that I really wanna discuss about security. Let's see. It's for the most part, home users don't really use that one thing, a lot of the only real thing, let's just say it that way.  I know they put a lot of work into it and maybe they're kind of backport it. But I think for a homelab people, that's a cool feature, but a lot of you virtualize it. So maybe it's not as big as a feature, but I do like to be able to do the boot environments. Outside of that for a home user environment, PF Sense Plus doesn't really have a bunch of things that home users really need. So, you know, it's, I don't think 129 years bad at all for a firewall.  I'm just saying. Yeah, I'm satisfied with this. They said it would be 129 and they're living up to it. That's how I feel too. I wished it would not, you know, made it difficult and they could have just done this. But in a nutshell, they took the hard road to get there. The roundabout way of wondering what would happen if they didn't do it. Or I don't think they even thought that far. Like I had a conversation. They're nice people. They contributed a ton of code back to the code base. We'll talk about that in just a second here, but it's like, I don't think they're intentionally angry, malicious people. They just are human like all of us and do things that sometimes don't make a lot of sense to the rest of us. Yeah, the boot environment helped me out a lot. For non-profit organizations, I'd reach out to them. I don't know if they have any discounts for nonprofits.  And if you buy an appliance, you're kind of fine with that. Now, here is the things that I wanna talk about that are why I'm staying with PF Sense. Now, I've covered all the PF Sense drama change here. So you hopefully have watched this video 13 minutes in. You can stop watching here if you wanna know why Tom's staying with it. You know that what PF Sense did, what they changed that they apologized that you got a discount code, boom, we're 13, we're 14 minutes in. And that is where we're gonna put a demarcation here on now Tom's gonna answer questions and talk about a few other things. Explain pitchforks. I had said in the beginning of the video, people are getting their pitchforks out because they're angry that they made changes to the plus license, but now they technically brought it back to what they originally said when they released plus. And if you have a net gate appliance, a 6100 or really any net gate appliance that is not end to life, you can keep loading and you can keep loading the updates for free. The net gates appliances come with PF Sense Plus and you don't have to do any of this licensing. This is only for people running boxes like this that are not net gate appliances. This is who this applies to. I mean, or virtualized people as well. But this is the one thing I wanna talk about cause I see, man, I know people keep telling me open sense, open sense. And that's not really, there's some complexities here and let's talk about it. So this is me a couple of days ago before they fixed it. And I said, I think they'll fix the issue. I'm not like these switch for a few reasons. Let me zoom in and it's really clear. This is in my forums, these are my words. This is me, I'm LTS Tom inside of my own forums. And we have many PF Sense system and production at clients running net gate hardware. My business use case. We have sold these to a lot of customers. I don't remember the exact number, but it's more than 50. And we have to manage all these. They're on net gate, it works. We have spare net gate appliance so we can rapidly recover clients. Yes, we have spares in stock. If a client has a failure, if we have to go on site, we can grab their config file and reload it. These are all the reasons I'm staying with PF Sense and not switching to open sense. Now, PF Sense has integration with our business tools. I spelled out business tools, I meant to say hour. And we have it integrated with Auvik and Blumerra. I don't think Auvik has an integration for the open sense, so I'm not sure and I know Blumerra doesn't. There's no easy way move all the complicated configs over. Yeah, there's not a one-to-one config change. So there's another challenge with it. My team is very familiar with PF Sense and retraining people has a high cost. We have an entire team that support this, that support very complicated configurations. So we're not likely to change. This is just the way it is. Buying a license for the business stable version of open sense doesn't really make sense, because yes, open sense does have a business version that's stable with less updates. And that doesn't make sense when we already have net gate hardware. There's a cost to that. It's like all the other things and their own licenses on top to get a stable version. And this is the last one and this is a big one here that I have a lot of comments on. I still don't have the same faith in open sense when it comes to security versus PF Sense. And in my forums is a list of the PF Sense CVEs and the open sense CVEs. Open sense is a lot more vulnerabilities in it. It's just one of those things. That's gonna be a factor. Now let's go over here of why I cannot use and this is a compliance problem. I can't use software or vulnerabilities in it. You can be comfortable doing that and I am less comfortable doing that. And this is very pointed. I wanna say at the fact that even net gate, I'm completely aware that PF Sense still is based on the current released versions of CE and plus are still running the older version of open SSL which is open SSL 111. This is what ships in BSD. Now net gate has been working to update this. So yes, this is absolutely a problem because open SSL 111 is no longer supported. Don't ask me what happened to two. They just jumped into three as the new versioning number. So now things have to move to open sense version three. Now this is from the October 25th of 2023. So five days ago, this is the release notes. A word of caution for third-party repository users. This is from open sense. The previously currently changes a number of things in our ecosystem. My first to change is to move the open SSL package to open SSL 111. Since the former is now based on version three, this can and likely would disrupt updates of third-party packages not having followed this change while we want to use open SSL three eventually, being in the middle of a stable run is not the place to do it. That's kind of a problem because right here is a CVE in open SSL. That means there is an active, now I say active CVE, but let me clarify. I'm not saying the skies are falling or anything like that. I wanna let you know that this CVE to my knowledge is rated as moderate and I don't know anyway that this breaks a VPN. But the fact that there's an unsupported open SSL is a real problem because if they find another bug in it and they have not moved to the new version of open SSL and they're still basing it on the old one, who fixes that bug? By the way, it's not being supported by open SSL and OpenSense waits for things to come downstream from BSD because they're not a major code contributor to BSD. They are waiting for it to come downstream. And because they're waiting for it to come downstream, it means right now you have a OpenSense being released with vulnerable libraries in it. And this is just a problem. If we look at what PF Sense is doing, NetGate migrates open SSL three and PF Sense Plus. Now they had commented that they're also going to do this in the PF Sense CE. So they're gonna have a release of both coming out soon. So even NetGate is technically, because it was end of September. They're 30 days past and have a library within here. Now there's no major flaw at this moment. There's just that CVE that's moderate that has something to do with the key generation. I haven't found anyone's write-up to tell me exactly what could be compromised with the key generation in there. But nonetheless, NetGate is moving to open SSL three. This is not like just swap the library. This is rebuilding everything that depends on it and the people at OpenSense are aware of that. That's why they have delayed this because they know it would break so many things. And this is all the things that are using this. Anything that uses a CA server or CA certificate, open VPN instances, and other consumer certificates. Certificate manager, IP sec. Unbound does not require any adjustments because it still supports SHA-1 certificates for the time being. And the migration open SS3 was essentially the work done by NetGate and 2309 support was complex. The changes have been incorporated with little impact to users as possible but some services may require reconfiguration to tell your certificate to use stronger algorithm because some things are gonna be deprecated. This, like I said, is kind of a stop right there for me to run OpenSense because I would be loading something, if I were to load this, that has an insecure library and no roadmap, no date planned to get that fixed. And if I'm wrong about that, if someone can point me to, and I've been in OpenSense forums reading through it and this is the release notes, that they're staying with the old unsupported version, this kind of bothers me that they don't have a plan to fix. Now, like I said, I can be completely wrong about something and people can tell me I'm wrong. Please post in my forum, send me a message, a DM or whatever you need to do to say, Tom, you're completely wrong. There's nothing wrong with OpenSSL and they somehow are gonna magic it, support together. Someone's gonna update those libraries but according to everything I've read, that is a dead version and that's the reason, NetGate and other companies, this is something you can go through. The OpenSSL 111 problem is not just a free BSD problem, it is a open source library support problem against other packages. So it's definitely something worth discussing here. So let me see if there's any questions on this. Ah, do-do-do-do. I thought the pitchfork was a reference to the free BSD. We can go with that. Well, they could just require the OpenSSL 111 package when installing the OpenSSL 3.0 package, I guess. Yeah, that isn't, you have to refactor some code to make that work. I guess NetGate's hardware is just stable and paying anyways, it prefers to pay the hardware that comes with the software free tech support and it's fanless, I think is probably the word you're trying to say there. Yeah, 99 year is a no-brainer. I feel like the 4100 might be a sweet spot for home users, maybe 6100 for going crazy, yes. I like that. I will laugh at people who call me PF Simp. I'm just saying, if I were to switched away, I've seen people calling for the end of NetGate. The reality is, NetGate is helping to prop up free BSD. So is IAC systems, but there's a reason some of these other companies are kind of looking at other alternatives. It's sad, but free BSD is not what it was before. It doesn't compare to Linux in terms of support. This is one of the things, firewall support's difficult. Having upstream support's really critical. I mean, if there's no easy solutions for that and no one's contributing code, yeah. Besides PF Sense and OpenSense, what other home open source free firewalls do you recommend to try out? That's a good question because I don't have an answer. I was going through a Wikipedia and I was doing this in another live stream, just as a discussion. I used to play with so many old firewalls and things like that. I say they were new when I was using them, but I loved all of them, like Smoothwall and IPCOP. They're all defunct. There's just not anyone supporting open source firewalls anymore because of the complexity of the firewalls, there's very few of them left. And when you're trying to get someone to do code audits, code review and really poke at security for these firewalls, you can't just trust any one company for it. Especially when my task is keeping my clients secure in a commercial sense. I can't just go, well, I'm just gonna use a free open source project and hope they update things that they said they don't have a roadmap to update. That's kind of a problem. I would be a hypocrite to use something that literally doesn't have a roadmap of fixing out of date library support. There's no way around it. I can disagree with NetGate, but also realize they are the best option for security. Those things can both be true at the same time. So I laugh that someone's calling me like I'm defending NetGate, but I'm like, I didn't defend their decision, but I also have to defend my clients against security threats. The other options are, when it comes to open source ones, I don't really know because Untangle got bought by Arista and they only, I think they only have, I don't think they have anything for free anymore. They only have the Untangle home edition, but I think they remove the word, double check that they remove it from open source. I was never, like I did some Untangle videos as this never a big fan of them. They have a weird firewall interface, essentially is how I felt about it, but it Untangle is another option that's out there. Sophos bought, someone can remember in the comments because Sophos, I think it's called Sophos XG. They took a commercial firewall or an open source firewall and just got rid of the open source and rolled it into their own thing. I can't remember which one they bought. Was it Endian firewall or was it Smoothwall that eventually worked its way into being that? I mean, there's just not a lot of options out there. I appreciate your coverage, Tom. I was very mad at first, found out, but after hearing your insight and coverage, I'll miss VCE for my house because I don't use the features. Yeah, open SSL, one was dead in the water the December two CVEs. You've been thinking about migrating open source through time, but ultimately you didn't because stable API, yes, concerns by customers. Okay, open SSL two was consumed by open SSL for FIPS so they advised to move there. Yep, without NETK8P of sense, open sense. You know, and this is something I, people don't really realize. BIOS is great for data centers. They have a license. If you want a stable version of BIOS, get ready for this, 8,000 a year. That's on the BIOS page. So when people talk about BIOS being an alternative, I'm like, to what? Yeah, Smoothwall and Endian were two really cool and Smoothwall, Endian, IPCOP. I mean, there were some good ones out there, but yeah, it's just a lot. Oh, let's see. Yeah, Sophos has a homelab version of their firewall. Their homelab I think is free, but it has limitations on there. I don't know what the limitations are because I don't use it, but yeah. I see people, I've seen people say this, I don't use it. I don't really have an interest in using the Sophos one. I don't know. Some people like it, some people hate it. Yeah, IP fires still exists, but boy, feature lacking is for sure. They don't have a lot of features. Yeah. It's interesting that PSense went for EBSD so early, but has such a problem with OpenSSL. No, they went to, they have a whole thing of why they went to 14. It was because they knew these things were coming because 13 is still on the old version. 14 is on the new version of OpenSSL. So, and by the way, NetGate is contributing a lot of the code to that. So that's a whole other thing that NetGate is contributing so much to the code. Matter of fact, one of the things I thought was interesting, and let me highlight something for people. One, this right here, you can dig through all of these. This is some of the PFSense developers. I was going through and some of them have unique enough names. It's super easy to find some of their code contributions. But one of the things I wanted to point out, for example, is like this right here. If you're wondering, how did FreeBSD get two and a half gigs support on those network cards? I've seen people go, but OpenSense supports it. Yeah, OpenSense wouldn't support the network cards if it was not sponsored by Rubicon Communications LLC, also known as NetGate. There's actually a ton. If you start going through all the code contributions that they've done, you'll find that there's all these drivers, all these things. Matter of fact, Christian McDonald, you may have seen him do some posts before. I've recommended his video on WireGuard, Christian McDonald. It's been submitting code patches. This is by Christian McDonald. This is the unbound Python support and all the updated Python things that got fixed in there. Yeah, without NetGate, how does OpenSense benefit if someone doesn't write the drivers and do the updates? I'm just pointing out, that's one of the things with it here.  No, I'm just living in the real world where I want my free thing, but someone had to write all the code for my free thing. This is, I just was debating someone in my forum because they were complaining about XenorcaShop locking things behind a paywall.  Oh, no, I shouldn't have to compile it myself. They should just give me all the features for free and not charge. I'm like, no, they charge for service delivery, but you can compile it. I have a video on how to compile it yourself. I don't know. But in free BSE, OpenSSL can use for a base system, but the ports can opt to use either base OpenS or the port version. I guess the problem is they don't want to use different versions. Yeah. Konegate, Translate, Christian, BSD Linux, BSD to Linux at some point where that'd be too challenging. Yeah, that's not happening. Yep. They went the 129 route. Ping me if you want to join, Jason, and join in the debate of all this fun stuff. But yeah, they went the 129 route, essentially, and they gave us a discount code of Tac Lite so we can get $99 for the trouble, I guess. Yeah, this is, yeah, there's no way for them to simply move it over. You can't just take and swap the system to be Linux on the back end. There's way, way too much dependency for both OpenSense and PFSense on things that are only features of free BSD. They're very intertwined. And the reality is these are the projects that are helping to prop up, you know, well, putting all the code. Let's pull up, where did I have this? Right here. I shared this. This is posted in my forums, all the details. This is all the code contributions. This is from, not NetGate. This is from the free BSD foundation. NetGate accounts for like 8% of the sponsored commits. Netflix is 15% of them. Juniper Networks is only 6%, but Juniper Networks actually went through some of the things like they're committing firewall things to it as well. So you have these companies doing it. So without all these large scale code commits, they're doing it. Now, someone, I don't know if I can pull this up. So I have it. Yes, let's pull it over here.  I did, there is a thread right here you can find where I had a discussion with Franco. I think he said, head of the project at there. And we were talking about OpenSense. He has a link here, and you can see what code commits they're doing. They're not doing none, but they're doing very little code commits compared to the other people. For those of you wondering, so I addressed some issues and you can see me posting as Lawrence Systems in the forum. So if you're looking for me in the OpenSense forums, I'm not gonna spend a lot of time in there, but if someone wants to call me out or tell me I'm wrong, I do have an account in the OpenSense forums. I use the same name on all my forums, Lawrence Systems. So just so people know. Yeah, Jason's right about this. The UDM is manned from an extra firewall standpoint. Also, the UDMs are not very customizable. The firewall rules are atrociously bad to write. And yeah, as a fellow MSP, I really appreciate you following up on this and putting out the videos so quickly that things happen. Adam, hopefully you're using Neckate hardware and I will tell you a little bit. If you dig around and know where to look, you will find that they are working on from the people at Neckate because this was posted in Reddit somewhere. I'd have to dig around to it. If you dig around, you will find that the... This is actually funny. Are you taking your sun to scouts or are you joining the live stream? But I do know that you can find on Reddit, there's a very rough draft that was posted. It may have been taken down. This is by Neckate. There was a comment they made. They're working on a central management system that is going to be for PFSense Plus. So there's gonna be something that's for us IT people who manage it. They realize we're a big category and they're looking at developing that. So you didn't know OpenSense had no roadmap for SSL, changes your immediate recommendations. Yeah, yeah. It's, like I said, this is a big concern because if they have to rely on things to happen, I just don't think they have the staff. Matter of fact, I thought I had a discussion I could pull up on that. It's in their form. If you dig around, they were talking about this as early as May in the OpenSense forums going, we'll wait to see what FreeBSD does was kind of comments I've seen people making. And I'm like, okay, but that's not really a plan for security to say I'll wait for when FreeBSD gets around to fixing it. BIOS LTS can be built from source someone XP and G, but that's not the same as actually supporting it. Like they want you to use their rolling release if you have to build it from source each time. That doesn't make it easy to update. Oh, Jason's going to join me. Here, let me send him the link. Jason's actually spent a lot of time in the BSD world. OpenSense 24 one have a roadmap for OS version. No, I don't think this will be, see the UDM can't hold a candle to what you can do with PF sense free. And this is kind of the problem. Hey, Jason. The, so this is people will use a UDM over a PF sense. In reality is you can't hold a candle to the abilities of PF sense compared to like a UDM. You've got so much more flexibility, so many more features that people use it. And I think for the free version of CE or even paying 129 bucks a year, I don't, you got to go to like Juniper to get those level of features in a firewall. You got to go to something that's a lot higher in the more. The management piece of it, it's all just open source stuff, right? If you're willing to go to the command line, you can do all of that stuff without any licensing. Yeah, yeah. For, see someone says, who's the person on the screen? This is Jason Seigl, president of CNWR. For people that don't know when I split merged my company, Lawrence Systems does the media stuff. Jason handles all the IT stuff. And I make media and then do consulting at CNWR. All that fun stuff. There's a video on it, you can find that's. Yeah, I'm a long time, I'm a BSD guy. Yeah, Jason's a BSD guy and he also has the same task that I do because people are asking, why can't you just switch to OpenSense? And I said, you know, we have a lot of clients with BF Sense. That means we can't just drop and swap because we got to train everybody, we got people that know. But also OpenSense doesn't have a security roadmap right now. Yeah. I mean, I think we could probably port the config over. I started looking at it and it looks like it's probably not that bad to do, but why? I mean, just go back to CEE if you're worried about it. That's kind of my attitude, just like roll. I showed how easy it was to roll back. It's like a, it takes so little time. It's like a 15 minutes to reload one of these firewalls. And someone pointed out, I should have said in my video, if you copy the config on a USB at the same time, you can do it in one step instead of booting it up. So yeah, you can do it in one step versus Tom's two steps of booting it, loading the config and telling it to reboot one more time. Yeah, the thing we're missing though, as you know, is going to be the central management piece. That's, they're working on it. I mean, they told me they're working on it. I seen some preview stuff. I think that's pretty cool. And being a BSD guy, how do you feel? This is the bigger picture stuff. How does BSD look compared to the way it used to look? I mean, it has a different goal than a lot of the Linux distros do, right? I'm still on, even though I haven't contributed a long time, I'm still on Puppet at FreeBSD.org. If you email that, I get it. I'm one of the members of it. I helped Puppet, the newer versions of Puppet and Leatherman and some of the other dependencies over FreeBSD. It's not great compared to where it was, I don't know, 15 years ago. But I mean, then again, F5 used to be net BSD, right? Like you used to have a bunch of these BSD derivatives used places and now there just aren't that many left, honestly. Yeah. So is, am I wrong? Someone's telling me Juniper's no longer FreeBSD. I don't think that's true. I don't know. Not all Juniper is FreeBSD, right? So that is a very, very big distinction, but are the newer JunoS, is the newer JunoS Linux? What other firewalls are based on FreeBSD right now? So they're running Linux on the bare metal and then they're running FreeBSD and a QEMU virtual machine on the Linux host. Got it. Yeah. Yeah, because they're still listed as one of the, big co-contributors is still them. They still, Juniper Networks. I figure that means they have at least a pretty strong reliance on it of some sort, so. Yeah, JunoS Evolution or something is Linux, that is correct. So I think some of the newer hardware has moved to direct Linux, but that's a lot, right? Like, so Juniper was basically, it started out as all FreeBSD, which is commodity hardware, and then they started making ASICs, right? As you want to go faster, you make ASICs. Well, if the drivers that run those ASICs are written in FreeBSD, then you have to basically port them all to Linux, which has a considerably different low level API than FreeBSD does. Yeah, and I think that's what people just don't understand when they were talking about, they can't just swap the kernel of the Linux, no. The PHP interface is not the hardest part of writing a firewall. It's all those integrations to get everything to work the way you think it should work. There's a lot of details, everything from IPsec VPNs and OpenVPN, which I'm actually kind of, OpenVPN DCO is coming, which is pretty cool, and NETGate is the one who brought that over to FreeBSD. It's in the 14 version of FreeBSD, so that's another good feature. It's a way to stop swapping things back and forth over to user space, which slows down OpenVPN, so it puts it all, the data channel, the data channel gets offloaded in kernel space so you can have a much faster connection over OpenVPN. Actually, Rival's WireGuard, it's kind of slick, and of course, it's OpenVPN, so it has all the other facilities within it that you're used to. Interesting, somebody has ported IPFW to Linux, it looks like, so you actually could get IPFW on Linux. That's interesting. I didn't think anyone would take the time to port that. Oh, I see someone asking about Meeker check. Man, such a good idea with such a bad software implementation. It's like, it's... The only thing they get going from is they're really inexpensive. Yeah, 100%, right, RouterOS or Winbox, like, let's, yeah, Winbox is a turd. Oh my God. I have no other nice, I have no nice words to say about Winbox, it's terrible. Sonic Walls are actually, what was that software they used to use, because it got, it had a lot of bad vulnerabilities in it. What's that? Was it VXOS? Something like that. I think VXOS is all Linux space these days too. Yeah, a lot of it switched. Someone said Sonic Walls moved over to Linux, but don't use Sonic Wall. I'm sorry, they're just not. Maybe Dell will buy them and then unbuy them three or four more times. Yeah. Yeah, it's, Netflix is obviously a big supporter of the BSD project, because that's how Netflix has all their streaming stuff. They're the, they contribute 15% of the commits now, which I think is pretty wild. Yeah, I actually started Thunderbird just to like, take a look at the previous emailing list, because I'm still on a bunch of them. Yeah, it's, that's the thing. There used to be so many open source firewalls out there. And I think with the increased complexity of what it takes to build and manage a firewall, they've all just gone defunct. Not enough people have enough time to keep up with what it takes to run a firewall here in 2023. It's a, Steve Gibson over at GRC had a really good commentary of why there's no one writing a browser. They did some like, how hard it is to write the engine inside our browser. And I said, to start one from scratch today would take a massive team. Yeah. Well, I mean, unless you use somebody's JavaScript implementation. Right, but that's why everyone's like, that's why everyone just says, we're either gonna go Chrome or what's the engine in Firefox called? Oh, I forget. Yeah, because that's only engines we have left. We have the engine that comes out of Chrome or the Chromium engine. Even Microsoft went that way. Even Microsoft gave up on doing it. I mean, it wasn't worth the resources in trying to do it. And I feel firewalls are getting that same way because, you know, look at how hard it is for even a company like 40Net with all the CBEs they've had. Oh, horses go recently with their CBEs. Yeah. So somebody commented that like moving then FreeBSD stack at Netflix to Linux would be a monumental task. It actually probably wouldn't be. But if you hire a bunch of people that understand FreeBSD and can do kernel code and can roll your own and building world is super easy and the dev chain is simpler than a lot of the Linux distributions, you'd have to hire a whole new team that understood Linux. That's the actual monumental task. The porting the code is probably trivial. Yeah, and they've done a bunch of, my understanding is I talked to someone who was one of their devs a long time ago. It's just all kinds of neat things for packet streaming they had to do, which the dumbest part about what they actually have to do has more to do with licenses because they can't do any type of multicasting there. There's like a license rule. So they have to know what IP address and what household is actually getting each one. There's a ton of like accounting things they have to do. I was talking to him, I'm like, that's so absurd. He's like, yeah, he goes, if a bunch of people started watching the same thing we could do the packets differently but it would violate licenses that we have with the movie companies that don't care that we're trying to stay bandwidth. That's why they have all those edge devices that they do to make that work. I mean, a lot of these things are also not forked rel, right, like they're, so I see somebody saying here, you have to fork rel. I mean, a ton of these OSs are also Debian based and you also see a lot of the, a lot of the ones that are in use in the enterprise software stacks, they're not based on any of the commercial change, right? They have their own tool chains that develop their very own basically distribution, right? They're not RPM based in many cases. They basically just untar a working operating system more like atomic.  So you probably heard of BIOS, right? Yeah. That's the one people keep talking about. I'm trying to find their price page because they've really made a nice job on the, on redoing the website and everything else. Where is the download rolling release? Or do you gotta find your subscription page? Because they only give you a rolling release now unless you buy their subscription. Oh, there we go. Now I can pull it up. I mean, I guess it's possible they're rel based, but man, that's a lot of overhead. Yeah, I mean, I can see Facebook probably forked rel, probably forked sento is not rel or fedora, but yeah. Yeah, but if you want a stable version of BIOS that you don't have to compile yourself and grab all those codes, it's only 8,000 a year. I mean, clearly this is what the home user should all be, he keeps suggesting. I mean, they do give discounts. If you buy a five years description, it's only $6,400 a year. People keep asking me to do videos and it's like suggesting like it's a homelab thing. I'm like, I don't think BIOS is really, it's a good, if you have a job that you want to get in the enterprise networking space, take the time to learn BIOS, play with the rolling release, learn it. I don't see it as the home user replacement for a PSS. So I've done work for a lot of enterprises and I've never come across any of them that would touch any of that shit with a million football. Like where you're gonna come across that stuff is data centers and other places like that that are rolling their own, right? It's not gonna be like we presently do work with a couple of Fortune 100s and they would never touch something like BIOS. There are Cisco or FortiGate or Palo Alto or there's some sort of commercial vendor. They're not open sourcing it. Yeah, exactly what Jason's saying right here. They really, is the large companies generally gonna go for that and bringing us back to what this whole topic is about. Is there an alternative to PF Sense that's viable for home lab users? Nothing jumps out at me. I didn't know if anything jumped out at you for other open source firewalls. All of them are defunct. I think comp was awesome. You learn to configure firewall command or whatever your tool of choice is in Ansible and just push Ansible playbooks for all your firewall stuff and there you go. You don't need a pretty gooey. Yeah, you can just do it that way. Just do it all by hand. I was trying to find, so. There's another one, Cumulus Networks is another one of those very popular cloud-based one. And then Tinser is the other one that you've obviously turned on to. But Cumulus is used by a lot of the companies that just use the Broadcom reference platform and then they throw Cumulus on it and have like an iOS-like interface. I like that this one still exists. This is, I think this is probably a long derivative, like what do you call it from IP COP and things like that. But when you start looking, they have IPsec and OpenVPN and it's really basic if you look at it. Even the documentation is really, really weak. So I think in the end, what has made both PF Sense and MicroTik live forever are wireless ISPs. Yeah. Like that is the use case for both of these devices for many, many, many years, right? Because even the same thing, right? Like when you get to the enterprise level, no one's run a PF Sense, right? They're all, they can, like that $10,000 a year like licensing fee, that's like a rounding error. Yeah, it's niche. So there's enterprises running it but there are specific use cases. They have some good blog posts on a NetGate because it's used extensively in the military. They've got some posts on that, which is weird but I guess the Navy likes it. Yeah. The wizzy guy is right that NVIDIA did by Cumulus. Oh, did they? Yep. Yeah. There's not much under. Is Endian Firewall still alive? It looks like it hasn't had an update in three years. I used to use this one forever ago. All these fun firewalls and they're all just gone now. This looks like this is a Firewall. Endian OS, that's great. It's a bigger little.  UTM hardware appliance. Looks like they got rid of the, I don't see like a free, I see free trials, they went commercial. That's all these companies, man. Firewall is another one, right? They went commercial. They were open source for what? But I thought. Firewalla? Yeah. They're weird, they've got, they actually commit a lot of stuff to open source but their management control plane is web based. So it's a cloud firewall. So you put things in the cloud. A lot of people like it. And from a home user standpoint, I think they're neat, but they're super basic. But they actually have decent layer seven filtering support and they're all controlled from a phone app. Yep. Well, they also have an MSP platform for what it's worth. Yeah. Someone reached out to me about that. I said, no, I'm not, not really. But ultimately, you know, I had, I actually had a conversation, I don't know if you were in a beginning live stream with the people at Netgate. They just, oops. Yeah. I mean, I think that they gut check reacted too quick. I mean, because the reality of it is unless, I haven't actually dug under the hood of PSN Plus to know, does the license key authenticate you against the upstate servers in some meaningful way? No, it's not hard to bypass. You can simply clone the server and have a great day. Yeah, okay. So all of those people that are shipping the routers that are using PSN Plus illegally, they're just gonna do that. Like this isn't actually gonna solve the problem they're trying to solve. Yeah. That's my exact words to them. I said, and they were mad because they're using a free licenses. And they actually commented on Reddit that people were, you know, they have the emails where they were using like the people that I guess protect Tilly were using the protect Tilly email address to register it. Yeah. I'm just like, I mean, they have a way to stop it because they have to email you the license key. But then I don't know, it doesn't, people are gonna do this. I don't know, I guess it was a problem because people probably were calling their support with the same license key and stuff like that. That's probably clued them onto it. But at some point, if it's, even if you made it $500 if these other companies making all these little cheap boxes, they're gonna pay one time. Yeah. So Brick guy's right. If he uses the NDI to authenticate, they're not gonna be able to get updates directly from the NETK servers. But again, this is essentially a Sentos versus REL thing here, right? Like you get, you buy one legit license, you clone the update server and then you just modify the code. You have a build step that modifies it to call your update server instead and you profit. Like it's so easy. I mean, that's so trivially easy to defeat that.  Yeah. If you don't revert the license, you won't, if you have the free license and you're running like whatever the current version is, when the next version 2309 comes out, you won't get that version. That's all. And I have a video on how to convert back to CE. I don't think the plus versions we're doing it to get, we're only doing it to get two and a half gig support. Yeah, but two and a half gig support's in 2.7 CE right now. So I don't know, 2.7 has the, granted plus came out before, but this happened, all these incidents sound like they happened after. So I don't really get it. Oh, cool. You can post comments from side of Streamier and now if you connect it, you don't have to, I don't have to independently pull the YouTube comments. Oh, nice. Yeah. Yeah, so, but this X-pack guy's point, like no one in enterprise is using PF Sense. Like this is not... Yeah, it's Mitch. They have a market big, but it's, yeah. It's all the shitty wireless ISPs again, right? Like they're buying like bootleg PF Sense boxes from some other third party for 20% less than the NetGate appliances and that's what they're trying to stop. Yep. And it's not, you know, I actually gave them the example. I said, I have a, there's a couple of companies that have just been cloning my videos and dumping them to their site. I'm not going to stop making videos. I don't know what to do about it. Like it's just, they're stealing my intellectual property. I'll send them a takedown notice, which I have a fun plan. I'll talk to you about later on that because it's going to be something funny. One of them that's doing it. What's the story on Tangle? I'm not a huge fan of on Tangle. I don't know. I don't hate it. Arista bought it. They have a home lab version, which is nice. It's like 150 bucks a year. It's got some decent features. I just, I'm not a huge fan of the interface. I've never gotten, like there's just things in the interface I think are kind of quirky with it. So, oh, I guess this is a fair point. We have a hardware support for NetGate devices. I have trouble with it. Well, the troubling Europe, if I'm not mistaken is really just the fact that it's hard to get things over in some areas. Like getting them brought over. That can be really challenging. There we go. CLI, all the things. I mean, that's the best way to learn. It is the best way to learn. Unless that CLI command is firewall command, in which case you should just kill it with fire. Just learn IP tables. Yep. I will go probably another 10 minutes here to see if we can answer any more questions that people have about firewalls and things like that. Reposting Tom's videos is gonna be my business plan. Sorry. I do know a school was using them. I don't know what to say about that. My videos are being played in a class and I got this crazy DM from someone that they asked to remain anonymous because they spent money to an IT training class. And he goes, I'm so angry that I'm watching your videos that I already watched in this class. And I said, are you at least watching on YouTube? He goes, yeah, they didn't cut out your part where you said that, jumping around in a video and using you as an explainer. He goes, I didn't pay all this money to go to this class to watch you. I thought that was so good. Lazy professors exist everywhere. Yes. You know what's funny? I don't even think I have a copy of my own puppet book here. Oh, you look at your bookshelf. Yeah, that's funny. Yeah. By the way, I'll mention it one more time if I can find the link. Here we go. The discount code, good to November, just so people know, is going to be a Taclight, T-A-C-L-I-T-E.  I threw it in here. I thought it was nice that they're offering a discount. I mean, it'd be better if they didn't make mistakes, but hindsight's 20-20. We all wish we didn't make mistakes. That's how I feel. In the end of the day, they're human. Who OEMs their appliances? Are they SuperMicro? No, there's two companies that they use. They do the design. They have an industrial designer for all those white box ones, the ones that we have a lot of, like the 6,100s and 8,200s. SuperMicro is all the big ones, like the 7,100s. Yeah, that's clearly the 1537. It's clearly a SuperMicro. Yeah, and they don't hide that at all. Matter of fact, if you notice when the boxes get shipped to us, they all have net gate written or SuperMicro on the box. They don't even like rebrand the boxing. They are custom because they have a special backplane and not that custom, but it's a one-off. But I mean, that's really easy to do. Like even our Prometica, our big health system down here, they have a Lenovo tiny bomb that like literally they only sell their Prometica. You just have to buy enough of them. I started seeing repost-launched videos in my feed and I handle it like the react videos. That's how YouTube recommended me, prefer the original. If you let me know, if they're on YouTube, I can issue takedown notices. It's the third parties that are copying my content that I can't issue takedown notes. Well, I can, they just don't go anywhere because the people putting them up don't care. Those sites usually don't last long so they don't get a lot of engagement. There's always like, I'm gonna create a YouTube competitor. I'm gonna go grab the popular videos from YouTubers to create it and yeah. But for people, you can get Dell OEM op shows and not, yeah, not Dell. And Ditto uses Dell Micro PCs and servers for their appliances now.  How is the base net gate model compared to the next step up? It really depends on what you need. I did that video recently because Jason had brought this up, calculating just how much processor performance you need to run something like Snort or Saracada. I actually showed on a relatively low end system in that video, you can get away with quite a bit. And yeah, I was shocked at how much I was able to, I was running torrents through it. I was really taxing it. And the processor score is so slow it still wasn't able to handle it without chugging. I was still able to, it was peaking. I mean, the CPU was hitting 90% but it still worked. Yeah, but Snort, it will basically the setup packets, like once the stream is established, Snort is usually out of the middle, right? It's not necessarily examining every packet. No, it's the initial ones trying to do a pattern match on it. I did talk about the efficacy of Snort and Saracada as well in the home user situation where it's not, and there's a reason we use a lot more tools than that. It's like the most basic one-on-one protection makes insurance companies happy that you're doing something. That's a nice checkbox, but you'd really need for security a lot more than just something at the firewall. How was the endurance of the EMMC in the Netgate boxes? I always concern me. Probably not great. Yeah, they don't do a ton of writing to it. So it's not been much of an issue. I presume they don't write logs there. They keep really minimal logs. So if you want, what they actually suggest, this is why they have like ones with EMMC and ones with SSDs. Like, do you plan to keep a lot of logs? Do you plan to write everything out and not ship it off to a log server?  They didn't give you great tools unless you're going to the command line, which this is not what home user to do it. Like export it to a log server, your life will be better. Wow, that second to last comment there about SATA doms, he must have an entirely different experience with SATA doms than I have, because man, I've had so many of those fail over the years. Running VMware on them. Yeah. PF-Sense runs perfectly fine at AMD Epic.  Yeah, this right here, don't focus your firewall and layer seven protection, especially me and you were discussing all the problems found in squid. Yeah. Just don't try to run all that traffic inspection through your firewall. Use an endpoint protection, it's just easier. Yeah, so there is a lot of information you can gather, well, until Cloudflare gets their way. So you can look at SNI and you can stop a lot of command and control traffic just by looking at SNI, just see where people are going. There's still benefit in running Snort or Saracada or something like Dart cubed, if you're not going to do that, just to block the emerging threat stuff, because so many of these ransomware things, if you stop them from phoning home to command and control, they can't get an encryption key and they won't actually encrypt you. Or just block outbound except known things. You will stop 80 to 90% of ransomware if you only allow known things to reach out. If everything has to go out via proxy and you expect you to get that proxy or hosts that aren't allowed to communicate with the internet just can't, other than updates and known things, you will stop 80 to 90% of ransomware. Matter of fact, that's one of the things I pointed out that if you use even the open threat model ones, they have a ton of IPs in the block list there and they're all the ones. Dynify is a fork of open sense. That's true, which invalidates the whole question considering Dynify as an alternative. Yes, because Dynify is just pulling from, they pull, then they do, I don't really know what details they change. It really, I don't think they change anything other than call it Dynify. I don't really know any major contributions that they do. Run said. They just like, yeah, Run said, because it says Dynify everywhere it said open sense. It has a different logo but it doesn't seem to be greatly different. If I'm wrong about that, please let me know in the comments, but yeah, now this is what Dynify does have. Single pane of glass for all the senses. Dynify supports their own open sense and PF sense from central management. I haven't looked at their implementation but a few of these companies, what they do is they want to hold all your SSH keys, logging all your firewalls and they're really small companies. I'm not ready to, oh, let me just give some company access that is some small company access to all my firewalls because what could possibly go wrong with their security taking over and sending commands to all my firewalls at once. Ask finality how that worked out. Yeah, that's true. Yeah. Is there a way around the piehole would be of sense? I mean, you- Not properly configured. You can, the PF sense has right up on how to block outbound DNS so you can use piehole and focus everything on that. We used, I used to run a service that I had a driver on my laptop and we would do TCPIP over DNS because a lot of the captive portals that make you log in or pay for internet access, you could still do DNS queries. So we would just tunnel TCPIP over DNS. And I mean, it's so slow to be unusable these days and there's so much free wifi and hotspots. It's not worth it. But yeah, there's all sorts of fun things you can do like that. Yeah. I think the last thing I'll answer is cause I've seen people asking about clearOS. If I'm not mistaken, this is, yeah, it was all bought by Hewlett Packard now. Yeah, it's good. HP has just bought all kinds of things. HP's bought a ton of storage things and shelfed them. And killed 90% of them. Yeah, I don't understand HP's business model.  If Cisco, the product may not get any more innovation and it's definitely gonna get a lot of license fees, but HP buys it, it just dies. Well, so I mean, but if you're HP, do you really need seven different network vendors, right? So some of these things, I think they're preemptively buying them just so they don't become competitors later cause they can get them cheap. Yeah. It's kind of weird. And the same thing, like three par, that thing. Yeah, I think three par still exists, maybe. My understanding is it's dead. I think they're on violin now. It's, I mean, I know HP bought it, that's what killed it, or it was on its way out, I'm not sure. It's gonna be a mess. And one more comment on the filtering thing, if you're not familiar, look up Encrypted Hello by Cloudflare, cause they've been pushing that. And there's more breakage.  Would you prefer HP or Broadcom to buy your favorite product? They can buy all the things we hate. Yeah. They're both good at, Broadcom's good at monetizing things. They have like their notes on buying VMware were great. Like they, there's no holds barred.  They'll pay it, end of story and the shareholders went wild. Well, but I mean, that works until it doesn't, right? Then you get somebody like as you're coming out supporting multi-cloud stuff, right?  Look, what's the product death count for HP, Google, or Intel? Google graveyard hands down.  They've got it down to a science. Like, I love the Google graveyard. It's just so great. All right, we're getting way off topic here, but thanks for everyone for joining us. This was fun. Hopefully I answered your questions. I made sure in the first few minutes to answer the high level questions of what, what changed, what's back. Here's your discount code. And then we spent the next 45 minutes talking about firewalls and all the headaches. We're all just going to move over to XCPNG from VMware. Jerry's still out on that one. Going back to VMware from XCPNG apparently is difficult. No, no. What's difficult is when you don't remove the drivers properly. I actually, I went and loaded Citrix over the weekend and then removed it and it broke. Citrix still hasn't fixed it. Citrix has deleted, someone had it right up.  I don't know why they do that. Like it's a Citrix problem. Citrix drivers like on their way out when you remove them. They're like, let me just go hammer this for ya. Peace out. Good luck. Good luck, sir. I'm gonna mess out, I'm out. Yeah, it's actually kind of a known issue that yeah, Citrix, when you uninstall the Citrix drivers, peace out, man, it's gonna destroy your bootloader. I don't know why it does that. Thanks, Citrix. They're working, they're actually rewriting all the, I believe even the ones for Windows are getting a full rewrite by the XCPNG team to avoid silliness. Like they've let Citrix, the Citrix has a signing key for Microsoft. They're like, you guys can keep doing it. Well, now you're doing it wrong. $349, that's a really lame excuse. Assigning keys are not expensive. Signing key and the fact that they've already got it like in the Windows update thing. That's the more specific. It's built into Windows update, the Citrix one is. It's not just a key, but like the whole, it's in the ecosystem for Windows. But I love Debian, who doesn't love Debian? This person doesn't love Debian. All right, we're wandering off way off topic. We'll do this again sometime. Ian Jason wanted to start doing some tech support stuff and answering Q and A. So back to that. All right, thanks everyone for joining. 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Family Theater presents Eddie Fisher and Marilyn Erskine. From Hollywood, the Mutual Network and Cooperation with Family Theater presents Welcome Home starring Marilyn Erskine. And now here is your host, Eddie Fisher. Thank you, Tony LaFranco. Family Theater's only purpose is to bring to everyone's attention a practice that must become an important part of our lives if we are to win peace for ourselves, peace for our families and peace for the world. Family Theater urges you to pray. Pray together as a family. And now to our transcribed drama Welcome Home starring Marilyn Erskine as June. You'd better hurry up. What time is it? Almost 10 o'clock. And the church is full of people. You ought to see the people. I didn't know we knew so many. Almost full? Your cheering section's got a few empty seats. My cheering section? Well, they've got all your friends on one side and now ours on the other. I suppose it is a little like a cheering section then, isn't it? Oh, Amy, where's my slip? Do you see it anywhere? Oh, here it is. Thanks. It's supposed to be good luck to be the first one to congratulate the bride. Isn't it? Is it? Jane. Just a minute. Amy, hand me that robe. Here, I'll hold it for you. Come in. Well, about ready? Just about. Oh, you look radiant. You know, if you're going to get any prettier, I sure won't want to give you away. What do you mean, Pop? I mean, I want to keep her myself, Cookie. I don't see why you'd want to do that. No, not really, Cookie. Your old dad was just trying to be clever. Well, I think you're real sweet. And I want to thank you for all you've done. Oh, no. It's nothing your own family wouldn't do if they were alive. And besides, we'll be your family in a little bit anyway. Thanks. Well, now you've only got a few minutes, so we better clear out what you've finished dressing up. Wait. I want to congratulate her first and get the good luck. Oh, not married yet, Amy. You want to try again in about half hour? You don't congratulate a bride anyway, Cookie. You wish you're, quote, all the luck in the world, unquote. But maybe congratulations are in order this time, Amy. Oh, come on, Cookie. I won't let a soul say anything after the ceremony till you've had a chance, Amy, all right? Well... But you're not supposed to congratulate me. Oh, let's see, is my makeup all right? No, I couldn't straighten it up just a little. Maybe congratulations are in order. You're certainly not much of a beauty, Jane. But there's not much can be done about it. I wonder if I should use just a touch of mascara. Should be safe enough? Then it wasn't safe that night in Berkeley. The night Joe proposed. Great picture, wasn't it? I'd like to have seen it on Broadway. Hey, that's right. Call Me Madam was a stage show first, wasn't it? I think Ethel Merman was in the original cast, too. Uh-huh. You know, Hollywood should make more pictures like that. They leave you with a warm, friendly feeling. Wouldn't it be nice if the world was really the way it is in the movies? In glorious technically. Hey, you know, Donald O'Connor really surprised me. Surprised you? He only sang that duet with Merman. He sounded pretty good in the way he danced. Well, couldn't with the princess for inspiration. What do you mean? Virellum. Did you ever see such grace in a human being? Graceful, all right. I suppose that's what they mean by typecasting. She looked so much like a princess. Hey, what did you think of that cartoon? That Mr. Magoo.  She belonged in the part. The beautiful princess in the white taffeta gown. Hey, here's the malt shop. You want to stop in here for a bite to eat, honey? No, no, not just yet. Let's go on a little, Joe. Well, wait a minute. Here, let me look at you. No, no, no, please. Oh, here. Let's sit down on this bench. What is all this, honey? Why the tears? So silly. Jane, have you got any faith in my judgment? Yes, you know I have. Then you let me decide if it's silly or not, okay? I never cry, Joe. Really, I don't. Is it something I said? Oh, no, no. I suppose it's been building up for a long time. What has? Oh, I look at her and I look at myself.  Mm-hmm. I guess just about every girl likes to picture herself as a beautiful princess. When I was a little girl at St. Anne's home... The orphanage? We used to talk together about things like that. I used to lie on my bed in the evenings and dream. Maybe a mistake had been made and that I was really a princess and that maybe the very next day my parents would come. And that not only they, but perhaps a whole kingdom would rejoice over finding me. Mm-hmm. When I got older, I compromised the dream. I prayed just any couple would come along and pick me out. Want me to belong to them. It's a sad story, isn't it? Very mellow. Well, finish it. Well, I was all arms and legs and freckles. So they came and they looked and they went away again. But you never really throw a dream away, Joe. You keep a little of the first ones way down deep inside. Things like... Well, like the picture just brings them to the top again. It makes them seem so... so ridiculous. She was so graceful, so beautiful. Look at me. I am looking at you. How can I stretch my imagination far enough to keep that dream anymore? I think you're beautiful, Annie. I'm sorry, Joe. I suppose all this sounds pretty foolish to you. You guessed right. Don't look question marks at me. You see, I can't see why you'd feel anything close to self-pity. I've been thinking you're just about right. Oh, Joe. I thought you said you had faith in my judgment. But don't... It's getting pretty late, Jane. I've got an errand to run, so let's find the car and I'll drop you home, all right? All right. And there's something you ought to know, Jane.  Now, hold on to your dreams for a little while, honey. See what happens. That you, Mrs. Matheson, do you want me to get it? I'll get it. That's what they pay me for. Not likely for you, anyway. What fool be ringing a doorbell at three in the morning? I can't imagine. Hold your horses. I'm coming. I'm coming. Hi, doll. Now, don't you hi, doll me. It's three o'clock in the morning. Now, Joe Walsh, you know very well she's here, and you know I can't let you in at this time of night. It's strictly against house rules. No guests after 11. Joe? Hi, honey.  Now, this is pretty important. I'm coming down. Now, Jane. Joe, is anything wrong? Everything's fine. I suppose I can let you step into the hallway. I'll close the door. And Mrs. Matheson, why don't you be a pal and beat it? What? Five minutes. That's all I ask. Joe, I don't understand all this. How about it, Mrs. M? But what if my other board is here? If I see anyone, I'll explain the whole thing. Well, all right. But I wish somebody'd explain it to me. Five minutes. Right. Now, what is all this? Haven't you been to bed yet? Bed? I've been downtown. San Francisco, and then all the way to Fairfax to find a jewelry store that had opened up for me. A jewelry store? Jane, I wanted to buy this for you. Oh, Joe. Well, there's a stone in the center there somewhere. It might be a little hard to find. Oh, no, it's a beautiful stone. It's got a string attached, Jane. If you take the ring, you have to take me, too.  But if you... Well, I mean, if what I said this evening after the show... No, honey. I thought about this before tonight. I've been thinking about this for a long time. Joe? Buying the ring, sure, that was an impulse. But the rest, well, marriage is for a lifetime. I wouldn't decide on something like that on the spur of the moment. Will you wear the ring, Jane? Will I wear it? Sure, Joe. If you really want me to, of course I'll wear it. So, are you just putting your makeup on? You don't want to be late for your own wedding? I was wondering, do you think I might use a little mascara? Well, I wouldn't. After all, the men get to kiss the bride and they'll all be crying. Wouldn't want it to run.  We've got to get you into your gown. All right. Here we go. Yes, yes, I think so. Yes, that's fine. You're as beautiful as the spring morning. You always say the right thing. Not always. No, not always. No, you don't always say the right thing. That first day we met, you didn't say the right thing. Joe, I'm so nervous. Nervous? I suppose they don't like me. It's not funny. They're bound to like you.  It's just so terribly important. Honey, don't worry about a thing. But I know what you mean. You know something? What? For the past 50 miles, I've been sitting here worrying about you liking them. You know, they're pretty nice people. What do they like, Joe? What do they like? Oh, just about any family, I guess. Mom can't get used to the idea of me wearing long pants. Now, Pop, he's a pretty regular guy, but don't start him talking about insurance or you'll wind up selling your policy. Right now, I can't afford it. And Amelia?  We fight like cats and dogs. This is the street. Oh, it's a nice street. Lots of trees. There's the house. Hey, don't look so distressed. Believe me, they're only people. No clubs, no whips, and only one of them has fangs. Joe! There's the one with the fangs now. Hi, sis! Coming. What took you so long? We've been waiting all day. Hey, let go of the stranglehold. Here, I want you to meet someone. Jane, may I present my sister Amelia? I'm pleased to meet you, Amy. How do you do? Gee, Joe, I like her. Well, thank you. And my little sister's the one with the fangs. Joe! There's Mom. Hi, kiddo! I'll help you with your bag, all right? Well, you carry the little one. It's got my family jewels in it. Jewels? Here, let me look at you. See? Same fella. And this is Jane. How do you do, Mrs. Walsh? Charming girl, Joe.  Well, let's not stand here on the porch. Come on inside.  Hey, where's Dad? Out back somewhere. I think why don't you go and get him? Okay. Only be a minute, honey. We'll take care of things here. Oh, I'm sorry. The house is such a mess. Mess? The way we worked around here? You think Joe is bringing home the Queen of England? Amy. You shouldn't have gone to any trouble, Mrs. Walsh. Nonsense. No trouble at all.  Okay. Jane, can I take a look at your family jewels? You certainly may. Family jewels? Oh, it's just costume jewelry. Well, my dear, you were certainly a surprise to us. Of course, a very pleasant one. It was a surprise to me too, Mrs. Walsh. Oh, that boy of mine. He's gone with so many pretty girls, you know. Been pretty close to getting married a couple of times. It's hard to believe Joe's at last thinking about settling down. I can hardly believe it myself sometimes. Joe wrote you were raised in a... what was it, a home for girls? Orphanage, that's right, Mrs. Walsh. I lived there till I finished high school. Then I moved to Berkeley and started working for my teaching credentials. That's right. You were teaching, weren't you? First year math in the same school where Joe taught history. What could be keeping him? Well, come on upstairs. I'll show you your room. You certainly have a beautiful house here, Mrs. Walsh. Well, it's quite old, but we like it. Oh, Lord, sometimes I think I could do with a few less stairs. Well, here, this will be your room. Amy. Hi, Mom. Now, you put Jane's jewelry back in the box. I don't mind, Mrs. Walsh. Really, I don't. These are certainly lovely bracelets. Are they real diamonds? I'm afraid not, Amy. I don't suppose you'd have one that was a little too small for you. Amy, you have things of your own. After all, Jane's almost... I mean, we hardly know her yet. We're almost sisters, aren't we? Well, perhaps, but not for what? Well, I think I do remember one that was a little too small.  Okay. Now, you run along now. Jane probably wants to shower before dinner. You won't forget? I won't forget. All right, Amy. I believe you have everything you need here. It's a lovely room. Thank you. Jane, you and Joe are certain about this. Have... have you set a date yet? We haven't set a date yet. No, Mrs. Walsh. But I think we're certain we want to get married, if that's what you mean. It's a lovely bracelet, Jane. Thank you very much. You're welcome very much. Do you think I should wear it on my left wrist or my right? I don't know. It's a little too loose on either one of them, isn't it? Not very much. Well, maybe we could get Joe to bend it for you. He's down in the kitchen with Mother. It wouldn't hurt it to bend it, would it? No, I don't think so. Come on, let's ask Joe. Did you ever have any sisters, Jane? Well, I expect to have one soon. You mean me? All right. I think it's fine. Jane, your parents. Joe said they were killed. They don't even remember them, Amy. It was a long time ago. Then you don't really have anybody, except us. Do you? I bet you were lonely. I was till I met Joe. Maybe I don't understand you. You'd better go through that one again. Well, I mean she's so unlike any of the other girls you used to date. Sounds like they're talking about you. About me? Just listen. That wouldn't be nice, Amy. It's not honest. I think she's different from anyone I'm likely to meet in the future. What's the matter? Don't you like Jane, Mom? It's not that exactly, Joe. No family, strange background. Maybe you think she's not quite good enough for your little boy. But it doesn't bother me. I don't want to marry her family, anyway. Amy, I don't think that... You'll miss something. And what was it you said earlier? She's such a plain little thing. Was that it? Well, now, son, I didn't mean it. I'll tell you, son, I've known quite a few girls.  Remember Rose Johnson? Magazine cover. Pretty outside, nothing inside. She never had a thought.  And that. Beautiful. Loads of family background. I didn't mean to think she thought the world revolved around her head. Don't get so high and mighty with me. I remember when you were 18. You wouldn't even go out with anyone unless she was a powers model. Amy, you can't go now. Just one more minute. Oh, can't I change? Look, a long time ago, I thought the animated clothes racks, those tall zombies who graced the pages of the popular magazines, were representative of American womanhood. It took me a while to learn I was wrong, but I did learn. Physical beauty isn't worth a cent if there's nothing else to go with it. Jane's not plain. Well, I shouldn't have said plain. She's got a wholistic kind of beauty. It comes out in a thousand different ways. Every time I see her, I see something else I like. Now, you might not understand that, but I do want you to understand this. Although I want you to like her and help her feel she belongs in this family. Whether you like her or not, Jane's the girl I picked. And if anyone tries to make me take sides, I'll always be with her. Well, I don't want you to take sides, Joe. It's...it... She just doesn't seem to me to be your type, that's all. What made you change, Mrs. Walsh? Did you just get used to me? Was it something Joe said or did? Maybe it was the night we were addressing invitations. Maybe that had something to do with it. I don't know. That seems like an awful lot of invitations to me. I'm not sure we have that many friends. Well, I'm not at all sure we ordered enough. Do you have the list, Mrs. Walsh? Right here. Suppose we each take a page. Fair enough. Now, bride-to-be, which do you prefer? Copper-plated or will my own blackboard variety Palmer method do? Pardon me? Is something on your mind, honey? I was just looking at all this. This is a big project, you know? Addressing a couple of hundred invitations? And everything else that goes with it. What do you mean, Jane? Yeah, I'd like to know, too. I mean, it's still not too late, Joe. If you're not sure. What do you mean, honey? I mean, I want you to be very sure. I don't want you to continue things Well, because you think maybe you've come too far to turn back. You want out, honey? Oh, no. Well, that makes two of us. Now, let's get started, okay? All right, Joe. Hey, where's the ink? Well, I think Amy has it. She's doing her homework in her room. Okay, be back in a minute. Jane. Yes, Mrs. Walsh? Why did you say that? About backing out, I mean. Don't you want to marry my son? More than almost anything. Well, then? But I don't want him to do anything out of a sense of duty. He couldn't be happy doing something as big as this on those terms. And you want him to be happy, even if it makes you unhappy? That's quite a noble gesture. Maybe that's not the reason at all. Maybe I just can't believe it's me he wants, or understand why or what he sees in me. Oh, I think I'm beginning to understand what he sees in you, Jane. I think we're about ready for the wedding. I look all right. Come on, everything's about ready. We're coming just a few seconds.  Well, I had something I wanted to say, but I suppose it'll just have to wait. What is it, Mrs. Walsh? Well, let's just close the door for a second. Well, what I wanted to say, Jane, I didn't like you at first. There was a kind of unreasonable resentment, I guess. Oh, I suppose it stems from a mother's unwillingness to admit her children or no longer children. For some reason or other, we seem to consider our offspring incapable of making wise decisions. What I mean, Jane, is that now, now I'm very glad you're going to be in our family. It seems like an awful lot of words just to say, welcome home, doesn't it, Jane? Mrs. Walsh? Oh, girls, please, after all. We're coming. All right. No, which side is it, I stand on again? I think it's over here. Over here? Amy, right back there and keep a distance. Don't try to catch up like you did in rehearsals. I won't, Mother. Oh, my knees are shaking. You just hold on to me. Well, Mother, give the organist the signal. All right. It looks like an awfully long way to that altar. Oh, God, help me make it all the way down there. Amen, my knees are shaking too. Did I laugh out loud? Oh, I didn't laugh out loud. Did I? No. No, I guess I didn't. All these people would look scandalized. As it is, they look like normal wedding guests, each probably harboring a secret hope the bride will fall flat on her face. But we'll fool them. Walk slowly, very composed, very dignified. What was it Mrs. Walsh said? Think of yourself as Elizabeth at a coronation. I wonder if Elizabeth felt like running. Only a few steps now. Oh, there's Joe. I wonder if he's as frightened as I am. Just three more steps. My dear friends, you are about to enter upon a union of which God himself is the author and which our divine savior has consecrated in a special manner, giving toward a character of sanctity which places it among the holiest institutions of religion. Institutions? What was the prayer I said when I was a little girl at home? That someone would come along and pick me? Want me to belong to them? Change the girl I picked and if anyone tries to make me take sides, I'll always be with her. This is the answer to that prayer. God's giving me to someone, who I love very much, in the strongest union he ever established. A union of sentiment founded in virtue and the love of God. A union not only for time, but for all eternity. Joseph, will thou take Jane Cecilia here present for thy lawful wife? I will. Jane Cecilia, will thou take Joseph here present for thy lawful husband? I will, but for eternity. Joseph, take her right hand and yours. Now repeat after me. I, Joseph, take thee, Jane Cecilia, to be my lawful wife. I, Joseph, take thee, Jane Cecilia, to be my lawful wife. To have and to hold from this day forward. To have and to hold from this day forward. For better, for worse, for richer, for poorer, in sickness and in health. But this is Eddie Fisher again. In my work I've traveled all over the United States. New York, Chicago, Los Angeles, Cleveland. And during that time I've come into contact with literally thousands of teenagers. And I think I can safely say that one quality of teenagers that I find unanimous throughout the country is the gang spirit. Now this gang spirit is a funny thing. For if it's channeled in the wrong direction, it can become the cause of juvenile delinquency such as the much publicized gang fights. But on the other hand, this same gang spirit can be a source for good. For it's this quality of joining together as a group that puts out a weekly high school paper, for instance, or makes a June prom such a success, or brings about a youth for religion movement. I think the teenagers really have something there, and I believe that the rest of the world could learn a great lesson from them. For it's this spirit of joining together and coming to my way of thinking bring about world peace. And if we as nations could gang up on God, so to speak, by joining together in daily family prayer, I'm sure that world peace would be inevitable. Just as family theater always reminds you, the family that prays together stays together. So too a world at prayer will be a world at peace.  Wood Family Theater has brought you Welcome Home starring Marilyn Erskine. Eddie Fisher was your host. Others in our cast were Irene Tedros, Colin and Kathy Johnson. The script was written by Robert Hewill Sullivan with music composed and conducted by Harry Zimmerman and was directed and transcribed for Family Theater by John T. Kelly. This series of Family Theater broadcasts is made possible by the thousands of you who feel the need for this type of program. By the mutual network which has responded to this need. And by the hundreds of stars of stage, screen and radio who give so unselfishly of their time and talent to appear on our Family Theater stage.  This is Tony LaFranco expressing the wish of Family Theater that the blessing of God may be upon you and your home and inviting you to be with us next week when Family Theater will present Early Birds starring Danny Thomas and Francis will be your hostess. Join us won't you? And I'll stay tuned for the latest news reported by Charles Arlington which follows immediately over most of these stations. This is the Mutual Don Lee Broadcasting System.


Good morning everyone. I am Dr. K. Rohini Reddy, finally a resident at Chelmer Anandrov Institute of Medical Sciences, Kareem Nagar. Today I am going to present about role of computer tomography in evaluation of non-traumatic acute abdomen. Acute abdominal pain is most common causes of emergency. Spectrum of causes range from benign self-limiting conditions to life-threatening disorders. Hence a timely and accurate diagnosis is needed to intervene at appropriate time to reduce morbidity and mortality. Stominal radiograph is widely available and useful in patient's bowel obstruction pneumoperitonium. However, specific diagnosis couldn't be made out. Ultrasonography is another widely used imaging modality. Computed tomography is most appropriate imaging modality in arriving at specific diagnosis. CT has achieved this vital role and permits global visualization of gut, miscellany, momentum, peritonium, retroperitonium, vasculature, solid organs, abdominal musculature and bones. Aims and objectives of this study to evaluate accuracy of CT in diagnosis of non-traumatic acute abdomen to evaluate impact of CT in early diagnosis on management to enumerate spectrum of causes of non-traumatic acute abdomen. Materials and methods. Source of data is collected from 40 patients presenting the symptoms. Sample size 40 cases. Study is conducted on Siemens 16 slice computer tomography. Inclusion criteria. History of acute abdominal pain, abdominal distention, abdominal rigidity. Exclusion criteria. History of trauma. Pregnant ladies. Study protocol. Application of contrast agent. Contrast application is adjusted based upon the provisional diagnosis. Oral intravenous rectal contrast will be given in inconclusive cases. Exceptions for oral contrast are high-degree bowel obstruction, acute bleed, acute pancreatitis. In severe cases, oral contrast transit time 60 minutes may not be possible. In such cases, oral contrast is avoided. CT technique. Patient is in supine position with arms raised above the head and abdomen is centered within the gallery. Initially, non-enhanced CT will be taken from level of diaphragm through symphysis pubis. Then 1 to 2 ml per kg of water soluble non-ionic intravenous contrast will be given at the rate of 4 ml per second through a power injector. Then post-contrast arterial venous and elate phases will be taken at 25 seconds, 45 seconds and 10 minutes respectively. In necessary cases, oral contrast will be given an hour prior to the procedure. Observation and results. Age-wise distribution. 11 cases are seen in less than 30 years age group. 20 cases are seen in 30 to 60 years age group. And 9 cases are seen in more than 60 years age group. Gender distribution. Male preponderance is seen. Organ specific findings. Diseases pertain to organ specific or depicted within the graph. And diseases pertaining to bowel are highest. Distribution of diseases pertaining to bowel. Acute appendicitis is most frequently encountered and it most commonly observed surgical emergency in our study. Depicting the change in the surgical management after the CT. In late patients, surgery was planned before performance of CT. After CT was performed, there is a change in the diagnosis. And these patients were put on the conservative management. Depicting the change in the conservative management. In 5 patients who were planned to be manager conservatively before the CT. There was a change in the diagnosis after the CT. And these were posted to the surgery immediately. Case 1. A 32 year old male patient present with right lower quadrant pain fever wanting for 3 days. CECT findings are appendix is inflamed and thickened. And maximum diameter measuring 12 mm in size. Periapendicular fast training noted no obvious mass and abscess formation a case of acute appendicitis. Case 2. Findings are loculated collection with irregular enhancing walls noted in right iliac fossa case of appendicular abscess. Case 3. Findings are pericolonic oval shaped lesion with fat attenuation with periapendigial fast training with surrounding hyper densoring which represent peritoneal thickening. Central high attenuation dot represent thrombosis vessel a case of epiproic appendicitis. Case 4. A distinction of miscantry along with bowel loops with proximal dilatation of stomach and small bowel loops in the superior miscantry Cartian bean axis is altered a case of midgirt volvulus. Case 5. Findings are dilated bowel loops up to the distal ilium with multiple air flu levels. Coloric bowel loops appear collapsed. Transition zone was senior terminal ilium a case of small bowel obstruction. Case 6. Findings are pancreas is enlarged in size necrotic areas noted within the pancreas. There is a necrotic collection in the peripantreatic region with thickening of xerophage and lateral cornel fascia a case of acute necrotizing pancreatitis. Case 7. Findings are agile and coronal imager shows calculus of size 7 mm in left distal urator showing upstream dilatation of ipsilateral pelvic calcium system and urator. A case of left distal urator calculus with hydrourator nephrosis. Case 8. 34 year old female patient findings are heliocolic and helioelial inter-susception noted. Case 9. Findings are non-contrast computer tomography shows hypodense lesion in the right robe of liver and CECT shows peripheral rim enhancement a case of liver access. Case 10. Findings on coronal and axial imagers of sigmoid volvulus with intestinal obstruction shows diffuse dilatation of large bowel loops with a transition zone in the form of twisting of sigmoid miscantry a case of sigmoid volvulus. Case 11. Findings are free intraperitoneal air with focal discontinuity in anterior wall of first part of biodenum suggestive of perforation. Case 12. Findings agile image a shows dilatation of distal vaginal and proximal ilial loops and image b shows large obstructed right inguinal honeya with bowel loops as its content with minimal free peritoneal fluid. Case 13. Findings are few small diverticulum is noted in the distal part of the descending column with surrounding miscented fast running suggestive of diverticulitis. Case 14. Discussion. In our study, CT was found to be better than ultrasonography in finalizing the diagnosis and impact of CT on management of the patients was as such. In 8 patients surgery was planned before performance of CT after CT there was change in diagnosis and they were put on the conservative management. Similarly, in the 5 patients who were planned to be managed conservatively after CT was performed there was a change in the final diagnosis and surgery was performed. Among the total 4 cases of acute appendicitis ultrason to diagnose only 2 cases but CT could diagnose additional 2 cases. Appendix when especially in retrocecal in position is difficult to visualize because of fecal gas shadow. So these cases and early acute appendicitis and its complications are better detected on the computer tomography. Hollow viscous perforation case is better detected on CT. Volubilus will be better detected on CT. CT is superior in diagnosing acute pancreatitis and its complications in ultrasonography is difficult to diagnose pancreatitis because of bobel gas and obesity. And complications of pancreatitis are better detected on the CT. Euretic calcula is better detected in CT and it can detect exact location, size and severity of obstruction. Vascular pathologies like SMH thrombus, SMV thrombus, etc. can be better detected on CT. Similarly 40 cases in our study were followed up and correct diagnosis was obtained in 39 cases. In our study CT provided a false positive diagnosis in only one patient. The disadvantage of CT is cost and radiation exposure but CT provides a timely diagnosis and reduces hospital stay and mobility. Conclusion, in our study it has been proved that CT helps in arriving at an accurate diagnosis. Associated complications can be determined with CT. CT can effectively guide the clinician regarding the management. It helps to determine who needs surgery and who do not. Hence CT can be considered as primary imaging modality in non-traumatic acute abdomen. Despite the small risk of radiation and slightly increased cost prompt utilization of CT in investigating the cases of non-traumatic acute abdomen use, more accurate diagnosis and leads a better decision making, redundant management and helps improving the outcome. These are all the references. Thank you.