Hello everybody and welcome to a special Pre-recorded eFab. This will be when we pop out when when there's just so much going on that We can't possibly do a live one for whatever may reason hap happens in any case semi-recently slash ages ago bring a completed soma It's right. Look at that. Wow since with that happening We can all talk about it now the three of us as a game a story set of ideas blah blah blah So first of all Uh, why don't you gentle viewer enjoy the conversation that we're gonna have That happened a while ago, but it is now going to be in this video Of us talking about soma and then after that We'll uh, we'll come back and we'll do something else that you've probably figured out from the title of this video already But hey, look at them. There they are. They're gonna talk now. They didn't take it away off. They go. Hello Hey You finished it up And I was 10 I was in total about isn't it Yeah So what do you think? Oh, I'm gonna be thinking about this game for a while I'm gonna be thinking about this game for a while. I can tell that I don't even know where to begin It sounds like I'm packing my thoughts on this whole game Um Yeah, I mean so already upon completing it instantly this game is Way way way way high up Unlike my list of favorite stories in video games Well, at least I know why beard rags put it incredibly highly I uh, I don't I don't know that I could ask for the game to do any more reasonably in terms of exploring all of the concepts that are The all of the concepts that it's attempting to delve into related to consciousness being artificial intelligence continuity, you know continuity of consciousness robotics um What what what exactly like life is where we derive the value from the the notion of like whether Like how much the value of life is derived from the perception of it being real and moreover like what does that even matter? like The notion of it being real or the perception of it being real and what exactly does that even mean to the perceiver? um I Yeah, I feel like there was uh, yeah like no stone stone left unturned in terms of exploring these concepts Unlike the way and and and this is all on top of the fact that I think that like the central plot as presented here Where these characters going through it and the mystery that unravels as you traverse through all of these different parts of the base Gradually piecing together what's going on um Like all of that is presented in a really interesting way obviously from a gameplay perspective It's pretty straightforward pretty like you know minimalistic. I suppose you could say It's not like it's a particularly mechanically complex game But I certainly don't feel like uh the game as presented and all of the mechanics get in the way of the story It feels like it's totally like in sync and in service of the story Yeah, it's another one of those that answers hypothetical because if someone said which they have Somewhere shouldn't have been a game. It should have just been a movie. It's like no, it needs to be a game It's got to be a game the choices Is such a huge part of the experience It's part of the uh Sort of how the argument how it convinces you you get immersed in being simon exactly If he's being viewed by a camera the whole time as opposed to you being him Uh, it's much easier to disconnect him from humanity Yeah, I think so and I especially look at the way he looks right like exactly the first person perspective Even when you've got like the robot hands, you can't really see exactly what you are and particularly at the end You can't quite see exactly what you are even though that part by that stage. It's particularly horrific Um, it's particularly horrific what exactly he is and I don't think you get because having the obviously, you know as a setup essentially for what happened there at the end of the What was already something that you should have been able to essentially ascertain by that point is that There there doesn't seem to be such a thing as like a transfer like what We're doing the prestige the prestige Technically speaking there is a transfer, but sure, but transfer this obvious why they chose that word. It's very uh You can mean a couple things Exactly. It's it's all down to perspectives because so much of it boils down to And so much of like the ethical quandaries essentially boil down to will like what do you make of it? What do you think like what do you think what do you think the situation? What do you think you're being asked to do here? What do you what do you think you're being asked to decide on? um, and there's like so much to go through and I like when it comes to thinking about Oh, just like each of those choices because I'm sitting here. It's like Hmm, would I Would I would I destroy the wow would I do that? I don't I don't feel like I fully understand that choice, you know, I don't I don't even know what I'm choosing between Yeah, it's not a huge loss that you didn't make an informed choice. So to speak of the games You can still just think about it now, but I'm thinking about it now. I got to that point Uh I had a different point of view to you. I felt like I the whole game was showing me exactly what it means for the wow to proliferate like to to do what it intends to do and as far as I'm concerned, it's horrifying but What I find incredibly interesting and I believe is part of the point the game is making is that I want to stop the wow to stop all of the suffering Even though there's plenty of instances of Happiness there's plenty of instances of functionality There's plenty of creatures here that don't necessarily if they have the choice want to die You are one of them. You don't want to die in this game at any point really Um Simon is very much. He's got a huge amount of self-interest naturally because he's you know, a copy of a human being He's just like, yeah, I want to live.  Yeah that it tries to get them in in You know a sense of everything being strong and great and there's a couple of quotes about The shambling sort of machine monster creatures. We don't know what they're seeing It's the thing that makes it really Difficult is that all we can see is from the outside in and we can try to figure out what they're experiencing Based on the things that they're saying and there's kind of like conflicting information because as I you know Some of the robots express that they were happy They didn't want you know that that they were happy with the situation even though the situation just seemed to be them in a static Near catatonic state, but the problem is that what we're perceiving from the outside Who's to say what it is from the inside and what exactly is there for you? But your subjective experience of reality If as far as you're concerned you're leading your life and everything is pretty normal And you have no idea that you're hooked up to basically this like gray goo thing That's constantly expanding and trying to keep things alive That in the real world is horrifying, but you're completely oblivious to what does that mean to you? I mean there's so many concepts running at once because you can picture like That creature well any of them that we're chasing you what they could be seeing is they're in a beautiful forest Just you know running after a rabbit. Yeah, exactly I think what mainly what really put that in my mind was the fact that simon initially thought he was a person In the facility he thought he was a person and then eventually he realized oh shit. I'm I'm not I'm a I'm a robot Um, and if that's something that he perceived that could absolutely be the same And we we saw it right with uh with our call like really early on Where he's talking about how he thought he was a human like yeah, see here's my arms and everything like that It's just to him everything seems not but Yeah, that's the thing It's like I I guess you would presume that the longer that the the wow goes on the more that it can sort of refine its process and Create essentially this situation It's that wonderful. There's so many amazing quotes in this game One of the ones I love is from Johan Ross where he says we cannot rely on a machine to know what it's like to be human That's the one that really makes me think no to define to To make sure the experience is the way it's supposed to be when it's like I'm listening to it my character right now who is a machine Exactly It's and what and what is the nature of all of the beings that have been amalgamated into this thing to agree to be a part of this To agree to be a part of the wow and to essentially lead lives that are entirely dependent on what the wow perceives like to be And who's to say that what the perception of the wow is doesn't change it to something that's horrifying later on So this is the this is the thing I Find the destroy the wow choice to be one of the most complex because I usually land on I'm going to end the suffering But the thing is if an all-powerful very well knowledgeable alien came to earth and had a choice to just blow us up And it was looking around Maybe like yeah, I've spotted some That are just in constant pain some that like just bought birth to die some that are just like Kept on machines until they die people who want to die But can't because the the systems don't allow it people are getting murdered and killed this war is happening constantly Yes, there are people who are happy, but that's usually in like Stark opposition to their circumstances like they they make it that way. It's not a neutral position happiness in this world It's mainly a planet of suffering And so it's worthwhile putting a stop to it Like I can see an alien deciding that or a greater being of power And then I start to wonder like way am I doing that with the wow? Am I just deciding like there's too much suffering here for me to let it happen? especially when it's Not something that is completely and utterly comprehensible Kind of it kind of can't be you can develop a pretty good idea of what exactly it is, but you can never really know You can only know once you're a part of it and even then and then even and then you can't do anything about it That's that's the big aspect of some of the super important is that um What inflicts like a huge heaviness on your decisions is that you have the power to make it now you might not in the future Exactly that's kind of the difficulty with a lot of those choices there is I could do something about it now um It's like I said a lot of the choices seem like you can cut off the possibility for bad But you cut off the possibility for good. It's just that the good is way less likely Than the bad at least it seems that way. Well, that's the problem. It seems that it seems bad It seems the good though Simon seems to be one of the most Self-aware creatures in the facility and he's terrified and trying to make things better It's like maybe the the vast majority of the other creatures in this facility are actually relatively happy. I don't know They don't look happy They don't look happy but at the same time some of them said that they were happy even when they looked very unhappy like the amy in particular That was the one where it's like she wanted to remain in that state even though it looked absolutely horrifying What do you think of Simon as the main character? um, I think he asks all of the questions that I want him to ask And around about the times that I want him to ask them So like I said one of the things this game got heavy criticism for was Simon not only talking too much But being just an annoying idiot. Okay.  He doesn't uh Have as much creative thinking or learning uh as as regular like scans and stuff. He's a volatile human being and that um But he's still absolutely joe every man. Like he's the most normal person ever. Mm-hmm and uh hathrin Is is one of the most fascinating characters in this as far as I'm concerned I think she recognizes that pretty early on in the game that you are not exactly uh Ready to explore a lot of the realities of this situation and she strings you along for as long as she can Because when she's complete when she's saying don't think about it. She has thought about it a lot She's very very very very very aware But like everything in this game is deliberate So when all the characters seem to like take things well, um on kathrin's side It's the fact that she already understands all of this. She's at peace with most of it.   It's like I think she's got autism to an extent She doesn't really do well with people. They make many references to that In a human form. She's very driven by goals. She doesn't really react situations a lot like normal people do Um and she's not good great with people But if you the latter quotes about her from people in the end of the game are all that of like sorry to her She was right and that she is a good person And uh, I'm inclined to believe that completely. It's just that Everybody makes mistakes and that she decided Early on that it's wise to not inform simon of a lot of what's happening because he might not complete the mission Which um, she might be right Uh, maybe he would have like if he if he was essentially presented with the notion of you've got like A coin toss plus another one really with the dive You know once once we're past the that they couldn't use the uh the dunbat machine once you pass that it's like right So you got like a 25% chance of you know of actually like making it to uh the end In terms of your but you know what I mean like the coin toss right of the prestige Um, you got a 25 chance of actually making it to the arc and in the meantime You have to go through this absolutely terrifying experience to get there Like you present that to him. That's a much harder sell. It's definitely like the carrot of hope is uh I'm curious what you'd have to say about this. So one of the big criticisms the game got uh, this is all of my videos as well is the It lies there was never a coin toss It's set the simon in the chair stays in the chair and one gets copied over to the new place It's the prestige It's the prestige People go as far as saying that the game doesn't even understand. It's not a coin toss. It thinks it's a coin toss No, it is a coin toss It is a coin toss. It's the prestige the fun reality of this. It's the fun thing people don't so people Breed it as looking at it from it's not even necessarily This is where it can get complicated the the simons pov is exactly the same whether he stays in the chair or goes to the arc He will he will have the he will have the same perception of events exactly He will perceive that everything in the arc will feel lucky You'll be like i'm the one who's And obviously we won the coin toss as she explained several times the The us that continues simon in toronto has that extra was like a week and then you die Meanwhile the the simon that you know is copied over at least the one that we're playing as who presumably is the first copy that was created He he it's a reason why they presented in the way that they present it Um, it feels very deliberative particularly that they present the first because each time that we've gone with it We followed You know a particular simon essentially the continuity of simon as far as we can perceive it But if he was important to show At the end the simon who didn't make it to sort of emphasize the nature of what's happening here Which is that essentially the way that it's the way that it's going to be perceived by Whatever the duplicate simon is if you want to say the duplicate is that they had all of the experiences leading up to them Getting in the chair and then they there's like a fork in the road And they continue in one path meanwhile The other one continues in the different path the perception of which one is or isn't the the real one is a distinction without a difference Yeah, you might be able to make the argument in terms of the toronto simon to the pathos 2 simon But from then on you can't say like i don't know what standing you'd have to say No, simon in the arc is not simon simon is left in pathos 2 and it's like No, that is no that is simon. He perceived he has all of the same memories He has all yeah, everything makes that person simon is simon the only difference is that instead of still being on You know on the bottom of the ocean. He's like. Oh, yeah, I got into the arc sweet So yeah, I don't I don't know that the idea that the game doesn't understand what it's about It's like no, you just don't get it. Sorry The thing about um You know the the the ease of people's interpretations for the toronto one versus the pathos 2 one Of course is the human flesh the body Right, which is is like, oh, that's an easy separation. What about simon one to simon two like What what are you gonna you're gonna say like his his his robot body in pathos 2 when he first got there Is now more sacred than the second robot body And is that second or first robot body any more valuable as a vehicle for his mind than the arc That's when they started talking about the whole notion of uh when he was talking about the afterlife right and the idea of like What does it mean if there was like an afterlife and then there are duplicates of you That you know each time they fork off at some different point But they're duplicates of you and they all coexist in one place Does that devalue them the game is trying to highlight with simon one two three four if you label them that way Is that the only distinction we can really come up with as the difference between them is their bodies And what does that mean and what does that mean when their perception is the game? Yeah, so so that means The the body has distinct from the soul of the mind or the psyche How much does it mean and how much do we define ourselves by it And it's complicated and the game presents it as being complicated It's a reason why simon says that he's not sure team I don't think so at all I think the game presents its material to you and then like what you pull from it and what you make of it Is kind of down to how you feel about all of these subjects Which I think is really awesome That it presents them in such a robust and and comprehensive way while at the same time Leaving a significant amount of it for you to think about and figure out Like the game didn't give me any of the stuff we were talking about when it came to What was going to happen with branded or if we were going to delete the legacy scans the game didn't provide me any of that That was all stuff that I was able to pull from the material and just pull from my own thoughts about you know existence They really limit the hand-holding in this game as well So much of where you're supposed to go and what you're supposed to do is rely on maps and signs in universe and you paying attention And like appropriate ones not you know just made up stuff Well, I mean it's the peak of what I would call an adult game. This is I said that um It's like I said there's a lot that you can gather just from like looking around at things um Just like paying some amount of attention to The I'm surprised by the amount of diversity that we got in terms of the locations considering that all of them are ultimately You know under Yeah desolate underwater bases, but we got like a real Where we ended up was quite different From uh from where we began It just kept like evolving and changing because at the beginning of the game I had no idea that this is where we were going to end up But it all it all like flows and that information just keeps coming to you at a pretty steady pace And there's a whole bunch that can just be gleamed from like reading All of the uh all of the logs and and everything scattered about and just paying attention to the environment There's a lot that uh, I feel like I it's it's obviously hard to tell because it was my first playthrough But I don't know how much of it I picked up versus how much I didn't and uh how much more or less comprehensive my uh My knowledge on the game could have ended up being Yeah, obviously if you ever decide to play it again, you'll be able to pick up a lot more There's a couple recordings you missed a couple of like other rooms or whatever, but Nothing that would you know change anything significantly for you in your experience of the game You got pretty much the whole thing the whole package.  We'll make we'll make something more generic and scary next time and so then what you got amnesia Rebirth is that it which is one of the worst horror games I've ever played my entire life. Um, yeah They did the bunker, which is apparently much more true to form to the dark descent, which is a good game But soma is a hell of a lot like it's so much transcending its medium essentially I don't know what to do with the idea that the game isn't scary. I don't know what I'm meant to do with that I find it it's pretty terrifying. I find it very terrifying what was presented here Like even just the concept of people being connected to the wow and their experience and what it looks like from the outside But how they feel about it on the inside and then from the outside in I really can't know how they feel yet I've still got to try and make decisions about whether or not. I think I should leave them in this state or not Like, I don't know man. If that's not scary Okay, good for you. I guess a lot of people just wanted to get a series of rooms with a chase by monsters But you had that there were those moments too and they freaked me out Not enough for them not fast enough. I I'm I feel like I got as much as I needed of that Because we need the downtime We need the downtime to explore the things soba presents quite a big problem because I consider it a masterpiece And it's like not very well liked by much of anybody on it at least statistically compared to the people who don't like it Damn Okay, okay All right, whatever It was funny too because I went into it expecting the dark descent but sci-fi Okay, and you got something quite different doing spooks. Oh, yeah I did not expect this and I was just like Jesus Christ. They're like one of the best dev teams going And then they're just making art and then all they're doing is then this this to me Is like a huge step forward for gaming as well because of how they dealt with choices Uh, well, yeah, those choices do nothing mechanically like at all It's uh, it's an interesting thing that happens with conversations about choices because Something often gets pointed out with mass effect. A lot of people will point out that the vast majority of your choices are inconsequential as like a point of criticism um when really It having a game effect on gameplay or not. It's kind of like complicated how much that actually matters. Um I know we've talked about morality systems before and how generally I feel like the approach with the morality system Is to make the good choice harder that always seems like a like the the evil choice or The renegade choice is the more expeditious path and that like the good choice is the one that entails more hardship Um as like a concept, but then when it comes to The idea of like how consequential oh and of course telltale games get criticized for the choice is not mattering um, but the thing is is I mean, surely this game would be an example of how it's not really like it's I'm thinking about these choices Even though, you know, it's all in a video game where Even if you wanted to get around the idea of like that they weren't very consequential in the video game Even the if they were consequential in the video game the video game is not real It's not like it's not like real life, right? These are all choices that you're making in the context of a game But i'm i'm having a real big think about these I don't know that i'm ever gonna fully resolve what I think about the choice with with um Brandon or uh, I guess by extension the legacy scans. I'm really not sure about that robot Robin that I I decided to leave out there. I'm not sure about the wow. I'm not sure if I should have I'm not sure if it was I I don't I really really really truly feel like there are no easy answers for the choices in this game But each choice I feel like I can easily provide a pretty robust counter-argument to it I just keep doing that. I believe that the way they structure it is that like You ending up like the the shock of going from toronto to pathos too. It's like this is horrible This shouldn't have happened. Why is this happened?  There's um If you read through all of the information it basically explains that uh Like it has dates and the users and then the wow is the one that built you and it built you for the Express purpose of turning the power back on it up so long. That's what I wanted you to do And you did um, obviously for other reasons though, you kind of did that intuitively.  I don't know. What's interesting is there's a TV show that was kind of made for soma. They're like super low budget Uh, sort of like a I don't know if it was like a youtube series or not, but it's called transmission Interesting as far as I know. It was officially licensed. Okay, and um, it tells the story sort of of a lot of the survivors The most interesting part to me though is the image in reed. I think her name is Uh, she's in the game as well. You can find you're you're using her body as simon one And uh, she's the one the last survivor in uh, Upsilon in the in the show and she manages to just shut down the power To stop the wow like that's her whole goal in that show and she does it And that's like the prequel series and then you wake up in her body that the wow is used to upload you to To turn it back on which is some Fucking poetic tragedy.  That's why that happened. Oh this then learning the character names and understanding their journeys have become clearer and clearer And yeah, um, everybody is hypersus of kathryn throughout the whole game And uh, I just think it's a it's an interesting thing they did where it's It's only because the fact that I think you that you're playing a game You know there's going to be twists, you know that like The way that she ends conversations all the time very awkward the fact she doesn't react to things as usual to everyone else But uh, she is just trying to get humanity off earth. She believes that is the most righteous thing she can do I mean, you know If uh, if the choice is in terms of like a prospect for humanity It's probably better in space than in the bottom of the ocean where there's only x amount of time for sure compared to Which is interesting because it feels like it's kind of you know ties into what a lot of the choices are Which is do you want to take a chance on this? Do you want to take a chance or do you want to? I don't mean it feels like that's the case with the wow in terms of that choice Do you want to take a chance that what the wow? That the wow should continue to exist as this new form of life that is providing an experience that maybe you don't understand But maybe it's not so bad Yeah, and and I don't believe there's any Hard answers in this game is just supposed to make you think about everything I don't think there's like a straightforward answer to these things either. Obviously they have And that that's what I see. That's why I like Simon and Catherine so much They they're both well all the characters. They all have very um specific points of view and understandings And it's supposed to you know be vehicles for arguments and stuff like the fact that the arc didn't get launched Why because Peterson thought That it's too risky and it's better that we live down here for however many years than risk having none at all And then Catherine died for that Trying to stop that What's up rags? Hello, so why don't why don't you tell everybody what you think of soma? Oh soma's good stuff, isn't it soma's real good. It's a really really I tier content super duper coolio Um Yeah, there's a there's so much to like about it. It's a shame not as many people know about it I think it I think it like Barely essentially paid for itself. It took a long time for it to pay itself off in terms of saving stuff So it's a shame that you know, they went from did you ever play rebirth? I haven't played any of uh frictionals game. I haven't played the amnesia games This is the only one next year. You should do the doc descent. That could be cool. The doc descent is cool That was like one of the only uh, let's play games ironically my top power game full-time before soma came out Okay, interesting Yeah, it's really good. I would highly recommend uh amnesia the dark descent I think you'll love it a great deal. Um, you can You can tell it's like a same a similar kind of game Uh, and at the same time a very different game But not the same for rebirth, right? That's kind of like uh, what happened Trash absolute trash how we went from this to rebirth is well, I guess we know right because so it's not a horror game Yeah, it's because yeah, it's because soma's not a horror game A bunch of dumb fucks didn't get it, you know as much as there's memes for that, right? If if this game doesn't launch off of its own reputation and company What can really help is a whole bunch of streamers playing it loving it and then having other people support it or play it themselves Unfortunately, the biggest influence in the form of a video review on youtube said it was kind of bad. Don't buy it And is that joseph anderson, right? It drove me absolutely insane how much he did not understand about this game at all Me having not watched that video for pretty obvious reasons because I saw someone ask if the floodgates open on soma spoilers I think the answer is probably yes at this point Now now if you like a watch you get e-fap or you watch episodes, you're not safe because And i'm gonna want to talk about it. So yeah Um, and I have not seen his video, which means i'm probably gonna watch it And as someone just mentioned the insane the wild thing is if you watch markiplier's playthrough He understands this game completely. Well, you showed me the uh, the the his uh Uh interacting with robin before he went into was it delta was at the station? Theta I think theta was yeah, I think it might have been theta Um, yeah, no, I mean based on that small snippet. It's like, yeah, I mean he clearly understood it Like he he immediately figured out what the moral like quandary was is presented to him Um Anderson famed author and uh game breakdown extraordinaire Uh, he reviewed it and by the way free he did the kind of the same thing as you but Obviously he took it forward into a review that uh, he didn't even know that you destroying the wow was a choice Like he describes the story as though simon destroys the wow is like a set thing So the thing is is that I think if I just slowed down a little bit I probably would have grasped the like I don't feel like the game screwed up there. I think I might have uh I don't know. You can just leave. Yeah, um Which makes a lot of sense that I could have just left.  Yeah, no, I know I know that's that's the thing. It's I don't I don't know that there's anything It's it's why I I found it interesting because I I've talked about it before but sometimes I Think it can be really interesting when like the player doesn't know that they're making a choice But they are and then they find out that they are afterward Because I mean, yeah, I don't know. I I uh, I think Maybe that speaks to a sort of gut instinct there, which is like, hmm. I don't think I like the wow There's just something tell me like oh, I'm not so sure about you um Well, I always like just cast description of it early on in the game where she says it doesn't think it doesn't want It doesn't she doesn't even know if it has a capacity to it's a cancer It's It's just doing what it does Yeah, like that it does what it which uh, because I mean as I understand it isn't the idea with a cancer cell that it essentially Something's gone wrong and it doesn't want it to essentially go through the natural process of a cell And then that starts to spread and multiply it to like the adjoining cells So maybe that's like actually a good describing the wow When you see I think it's the late part of theta you go through a series of areas with Loads of just this flashy piles with like you can sort of make out Faces like eyes and limbs and then the creatures that are Walking around as rag said to you before but if you could find some of the concept images and some of these creatures You know in isolation and get a good look at them It's like the designs are fucking terrifying and it's hard not for that to inform you entirely in terms of turning the wow off I say yeah, obviously the wow has no real concept of aesthetics Externally, so what it makes is not really how it how it looks as well regarded Yeah, so what i'm curious about now doesn't even mean for them to be alive now that the game is completed Uh, maybe both of you like, you know go along chronologically. What choices did you make? So If we would say choice one would be carl Yeah, let's say the problem With carl is that a lot of people don't recognize it very well the choice before it's too late. I say Christopher odd is one of the people I was watching he Turned on car turned off Carl switch first and Carl starts screaming and he says, please turn it back on Please stop. Please stop And he did that and then he eventually like thought for a while and he was like, oh, sorry I guess I don't have any choice, you know and then just did it anyway I said I think I can't remember if mark figured out he didn't have to do it And so didn't but obviously I don't think anybody has an issue with choosing to Spare spare carl the screaming in order to make the game harder, which I find really interesting Yeah, that's right. Yeah Yeah, that's that is interesting to think about you look back at it through the context of the game and for all The people who don't think that those are really people or anything But who wanted to spare this person or this thing the suffering right like that that in and of itself should At least get some you know gears turning in your mind In the end you're willing to in the end you're willing to kill it out of mercy But it's the exact reverse kind of mercy that you showed to it earlier Um, I think that that's choice if you're in if you've taken the game for what it is If you're super immersed and you want to prevent suffering that choice is pretty straightforward I think everyone makes the same choice, which is despair. Yes, which is why it's probably why it's like the first choice It's pretty Pretty rudimentary Starting off no suffering is better than suffering right all things being equal, you know And then uh choice two would be Amy right in the uh, do you unplug one or both? I think that's an excellent That one I wasn't sure I need to check because I've never known anybody including myself to try only unplugging one I can't remember if it lets you leave if you've only done so the thing is is that I thought about just unplugging one The impression that I got when I looked at the screen was that power being returned to the tram and that I could have just left Does it safety hadn't Yeah, which was what I was wondering about Because yeah at that point now it cost you something in order to Uh Well, it'll if you leave her alive, it'll cost you safety whatever that that refers to exactly If we're to take that for the actual choice that it was as opposed to like I said mechanically I'm not actually sure I need to test that one. I don't think there's a difference Whether or not you so uh a couple of people are saying that there's no change in the consequence I guess it would just be that you leave her alive in a state that definitely looks worse than when you got down there either It was an initial absolute Freak out for me seeing that she had like wow created structure gel lungs That were yeah, and that was really into it.  I was like uh Yeah So yeah, I mean a lot of we can kind of you'll know all of my choices when I tell you like Any one of them necessarily is uh or one of the later ones and you'll know how the rest of them went so like You know for instance, I wiped all of random ones stuff. I wiped the legacy things I wiped um, I turned off The girl outside of theta. Um, I killed the wow I wanted all to stop. I thought it was horrifying Okay, uh rags. What about you? I honestly can't remember like a lot of my choices. Um, it might be because I played it a long time ago and I've watched Now two different peoples. I guess three with market players. I've watched I've played it and then I've watched three people's Playthroughs of it and I can't actually remember what a lot of my decisions were when I first played it um Some of them I do remember I I Oh I'm trying to remember if I killed the wower now, right? Yeah, I guess you can essentially um As far as Amy is Zorro. I can't remember because it would come down to what she says um I think if she wanted to stay alive, I would have left her alive if she wanted to die. I would have killed her I think she said she wanted I think she wanted to stay alive I think that's what she said like she I think she said why did you ask you to find people who can help her as well All right, and uh, so then that's probably what I did compared to someone like sarah who explicitly asked, uh for the So pull the plug Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I killed uh lindwell Sarah at the end um I Did you destroy the wow? I can't remember if I did I I honestly can't remember if I did because I've seen I don't know. Um This this is honestly a tough one for me I feel like there will be some value in you streaming sober rags at this point If you can't remember your choices, yeah Yeah, there might it might be um because I legitimately can't remember a lot of stuff. I did um Mel said he wants to replay it now as well Oh my god, it's a soma renaissance Soma I hope so. I hope this is a soma renaissance Um, if only we were world famous streamers, then we could breathe a new life into it again, you know I mean in terms of like a I guess a broad statement on this game. I find it pretty profound Um, I find it like a very captivating experience um, I think you can get a general list of Like they list all the mockingbirds carl harry j javid lisa robin vig dis and Others, uh, and I think they I think they list them in order. Um Yeah, I'm just reading through the wiki a bit here It's not a horror game. Come on Yeah, pretty crazy. I don't know what to do with that I don't know what I meant to say to that insane thing to say Let me see there was javid goya's mockingbird at delta simon finds a uh3 which harbors the brain scan of javid goya It is completely delusional not directly acknowledging simon jarrith's presence and believing that he is merely remote controlling the universal helper using the pilot system That'll be the choice between him and the little Oh, I was about to ask. Yeah, because I was just thinking about that one. What what you do Um, funnily enough, I actually can't remember that one That would be one where I just have to think about it now, which is the And I appreciate a lot of the arguments for this. It's a tough one. Um, the logic for a lot of people is That is a simplistic ai inside the little puppy droid. So You know, it's whatever. It's not as important as the human mind that is clearly in the other one Like in terms of just valuing sub Valuing consciousness, whatever, but then on the flip side, you could be like, well, that's a reason to destroy the other one Right that that you don't want a human mind stuck inside one of those things, you know, like a delusional so I mean, but then also there's an angle of uh, as you Pointed out the pragmatic use of the the robot That you know, it's like it actually has helped you open doors. Meanwhile, the other guy's just floating around Um, but then there's also the argument that I saw Where someone said, how do you actually know exactly a person's mind inside the puppy droid? Yeah, you don't because that's kind of the thing even though it was obviously presented as a dichotomy I kind of don't know and I don't think I could know that the drawing that helped me was more simplistic I don't even know if that's the case But yeah, so the thing that tip me over the edge was that that droid had helped me So it seemed real bullshit to kill it when it when it'd been helping me throughout this adventure I think I chose to kill the helper droid Um, and I think my reasoning was probably That I was more convinced that the other robot was uh Closer resembling a human consciousness And it was speaking and it didn't seem to be in any sort of pain or terror It seemed to be delusional. That's the thing. Yeah, even if it was delusional it seemed to be Okay That's what made it tricky is because at least on a surface level it did seem like The I guess you call the doggo Robot didn't seem like it was as cognizant as the uh as the the other guy But i'm not even sure that's the case because the helper robot Was like actually interacting with the world in a meaningful way Whereas that one was just sort of gone back and forth up and down left it Like it wasn't really it wasn't doing anything It was and another problem soma presents is like so you're judging it based on its current status So you don't actually know if it'll increase in any way or decrease in any way Which um, it's it turns out like emergent properties and you don't know what it feels Exactly intent the one from the the robot we end up going. Yeah, it's like is a is an experience less meaningful If it isn't representative of understanding its surroundings items no idea exactly it's I mean It's a nightmare the whole thing is and the idea that this is we need more horror like this And unfortunately people don't interpret it as horror I don't understand that though.  That's in there. I don't get it That's in there as well, but you've also got all their stuff painful.  I'm ready for some scary scary fleams and It's just people grabbing me and screaming constantly. Yeah, I don't know that doesn't Whereas this one is confronting confronting fundamental aspects about existence Outlast is surprising It's not it's startling. That's what you'll look for. It's startling It's surprisingly on the time If I was to argue which one isn't scary It's like I might just go with the one that's considered scary by the vast majority like the 99% of people who played it They're just like man, do I start to feel like an alien? I yeah, it's like because what what do you take away from Outlast? Boy, that sure was spooky Definitely watch out for the spooky man who goes Trying to get you boy That sure was gross what that guy did when I when I saw it and and then he jumped out at me And he grabbed me and I was like, oh goodness my instincts work. That's good worse You know good to get a check on those every once in a while. So I'm gonna ask you walk away and you're done You'll take anything with you Meanwhile, it's like summer is asking you a mentalized experience. What is life? What is it like what detailed complicated and terrifying that it would work as like Braining for people who have to understand concepts that we're actually gonna have to deal with eventually I mean inevitably. Yeah like it's all Leading to the you know the road leading to these sorts of concepts relating to artificial intelligence You don't want to think about it start thinking about it I think it's worthwhile to think about because even even beyond the context of artificial intelligence I think there's plenty to consider here in terms of your perceived experience of life now Even even divorced from any technological considerations I think there's plenty to be thought about in terms of what exactly is it that you derive value from Is it your conscious experience? Is it based on whether that conscious experience is real or real to you? Is it based on the stimuli that you receive or again perceived stimuli? What does that mean when it's only going to be filtered through your sensory experience of it? Um, I mean, I can't see infrared, you know, like I can't see I can't see like gamma rays There's a lot that I can't perceive about existence right now as a human being There's only so much that I can see there's only so many ways that I can think there's only so much that I can do Yeah Debate that me and rags had with good old v and sargon like five years ago something ridiculously long ago. Yeah Uh sargon held to continuity being the defining factor for basically what is a person Okay, and um that if you were copied or transferred in even the most Like just distinctly accurate 100% way you would no longer be human because you've lost continuity How do you know that you haven't lost continuity? Like already not to reopen that debate? I'm just saying that that perspective I was about to say when you go to sleep, I don't know if you can find that debate still you might be able to Like we were playing left for dead Okay But uh, yeah, that you know, obviously Soma is the backbone of a lot of my pov of all of these subjects at this point It like it basically replaced blade runner. Okay, so this is interesting because to me I feel like it expands on things. I've already thought about but I guess not Built it and framed in exactly the same way I feel like this is a nice what I just said You said it was like your backbone Which almost made it replace play runner, which is kind of a It's kind of interesting because I don't even know I'm not sure what I would say in terms of like the idea that Soma replaces anything It feels to me like it is.  I don't when you know when considering these topics I don't tend to open up a library in my head instead It's it'll be like one piece of media at a time I can obviously relate to lots of them but You know if you ask me to talk about soul mechanics and storytelling Buffy comes to mind immediately and it's like, okay What about um, you know vampires? It's like again, that's probably going to be Buffy But there's a couple of ones that might come to mind. It's like werewolves Underworld kind of comes to mind first, but there's a couple of them as well But it's just like yeah the question of what does it mean to be human? It's like oh, it's Soma instantly nothing else will be it for uh those questions that I ask Myself constantly Hmm. Okay interesting I think we have to see where what uh, I I mean, I'm gonna be thinking about this game for a while probably I'm probably gonna be thinking about it all day. I'm gonna be thinking about it tomorrow I'm probably gonna be thinking about it for ages Like I don't know I'm just uh Yeah, I'm just gonna be constantly thinking about it For at least an extra while Consider a change they could have made Which I don't know if it's I like what they did Not saying this would be better or worse, but just consider if they had done it this way at the very end Simon and Catherine Successfully launched the arc and then the scan happens you get the flash of white And then you immediately pick up as new Simon on the arc, right? And that's where the game The the natural process of the game takes you you go through go to the arc you take the little survey you meet Catherine You see it go off into space Then the credits roll and then after the credits it cuts to Simon back and pathos too If they had Yeah, there's I don't know which one is better or worse. I think both of them it kind of like one is Do you leave the the happy one? Do you start off with a happy one? And you think oh, yeah, we got transferred just like she said incredible. This is amazing And then it's like oh no, you know how this works I'm gonna go ahead and assume that the dev team talked about this for a while. I get the impression they did Something I wonder I think what would have informed it is that with the players pov You've quote-unquote won the coin toss every time and the end of the game is where they have you experience the loss first yeah And then I very hard contrast. I think what's interesting as well again is is how that Because for me that was definitely informing the decisions I was making for that survey again Having the stark reality of uh Because I think the main one I pointed out is that I uh, I do kind of mourn the prior ones Whereas I think before I said that I I don't know what I said I almost treated it as like a separate thing. It's like well That's a you know, that doesn't really have anything to do with me. Whereas now it's like damn man The simons that get you here, you know That's why I find a lot of people takes like idiotic on this game when people like simon was a fool and didn't understand About but but it's like simon is overjoyed because he believes like he made it through he won out he lucked out Which when you really consider everything he's technically correct at least in the form of a pov But the the player is more so like my current pfp If you know what I mean like while simon is like kathryn like we did it. This is the uh, whoo. You're just sitting there like jesus christ Like yeah, this is horrifying and that's why um, I always find that I think people struggle sometimes if they don't Align with the player character that like the games fucking up as opposed to simon is one of many characters in this game that has a point of view that you don't necessarily agree with That the player of course, they're aware of that soma's value is obviously in its themes It's like Basically, I mean there's a difficulty when it comes to games where you have the main character be an agent who Speaks and thinks things and will express those perspectives Is that there's always a possibility of a misalignment occurring that doesn't really occur with mario? like with mario mario could talk but You know, there's never really a misalignment between what you want to do and what mario wants to do compared to Like a person who's got a perspective on things that may well differ from yours yeah, um And you know a lot of people get annoyed with the fact that like wow I already knew the twist the game did not get me.   You don't pay attention. You're not listening and And and the fact that she's so exhausted if you remember there's a really important part that I think informs everything about her attitude as she says Her experience isn't like going to sleep It's like being constantly awake and there's no limits. There's no Pausing there's nothing. It's just constant and it's exhausting Yeah, humans are not meant for that experience and that's what she's been having throughout the whole game Except the fact that randomly she'll just teleport to a new place and be told that like x amount of time has passed Yeah, like she doesn't experience In the same because obviously as a person is asleep when you go to sleep You don't really experience that but you do in a way, right? There is something going on there in terms of an experience where she's got nothing It's just like oh now i'm here now i'm here now i'm here And then you wake up and you wake up where you remember being before you went to sleep There's lots of aspects to that that are comforting Yeah, but for her just you just flicker to the next place and it is a couple times in the game where power goes out And she doesn't even get to like know that she's about to switch Yeah, exactly Yeah, it's interesting to think about isn't it This is even a few times where she stresses. Don't forget to take me with you. Yeah. Yeah Yeah, and I think you at one point uh Bring you like laugh at the notion you're like you're my door opener, of course. They would this is like Yeah, but from her POV She's just a tool on a table. Exactly. That's all right. Exactly She'll just like yeah, I consider a remarkable take her with you Yeah, essentially in terms of her calm like approach to Everything in the I think she operated in the best way possible to ensure those people got out there That was her only goal. Yeah But for all Simon, you know, I appreciate her POV as well. She came to terms a long time ago with the fact that uh, she is not Uh, you know, she's not gonna be on the arc, but that's okay because she is gonna be on the arc Yeah, exactly Like she says they're out there, you know, they're in the they're at the stars and then I think Simon's POV is Those fuckers living at large on the arc. Yeah, meanwhile, I'm here at the bottom of the ocean On this dead planet because then you go and play as Simon and he's just happy to be there He's not thinking at all about the grim reality of the other simons. Yep Simons plural Yeah Man, uh, one of the things that hits me so heavy about that game is when you find The recordings of Simon Jarrah after the yeah sort of medications It's so rough because it's just like this was supposed to work and it's like it's okay You're just listening to the original you die mm-hmm So far removed from everything that was happening here Uh, I have something that was interesting It was something that was sticking with me for a while was the uh, the pamphlet at the beginning of the game that said That uh, like essentially the duplicate would be getting bombarded with uh Like would be run through a bunch of simulations essentially to try and figure out the optimal thing That was making me wonder for the whole time of like, oh man That seems like uh, we gotta we got a sneak peek of what that looked like with Brandon um, well, so a lot of people I think even joseph anderson said that He thought the pathos 2 was that the entire game was the The experience being bombarded with you know Stimulator figure out how to solve the problem of the brain in the physical world I thought that could be a possibility With like cancer and tumors is representative of the brain being overcome with it as well And I was like well, that's that's an idea, but um, no What I what I was running with is like that could have been a possibility Maybe what we're seeing here is one of the many scenarios. It was being run through maybe But I mean it operates totally fine It's taken as matter of fact, which is that this is entirely beyond what you were uh What what any of this was meant to be for The there's a lot of sci-fi tech in in in this particular sci-fi IP, right? And like one of them that's a given is that uh, munchie and his companion or whatever they they've created Something that can recreate human um You know consciousness in the form of a digital copy That's something you have to take for granted in order for this story to run Sure the scary part is They copy it and digitalify it in order to put it through everything Like you said you can give you a thousand pain killers and make you run a marathon at the same time just to see You know run everything which is the thing that gives you the healthiest outcome And then they convert that result back into a physical world aspect Which they said there was a particular diet particular medication and that uh, simon should improve But he didn't that's just a grim reality of it Just another thing is you know when they were doing that Was were those things that they were putting through those tests? Were they experiencing pain did they like had they accidentally?  You don't want to be deleted. So why should you be able to delete any of these people? It's like well, what if they ask for it? Yeah, what if they're wrong? What if you're wrong? So, I mean what what does it even mean in terms of anybody? There's nobody who could really make that choice because you're deleting a potentiality. You're not deleting Like the data isn't the coffee So there's nobody that you can ask because even the copies themselves can't speak for any future copies, right? Yeah, no the second that you are separated or copied. It's like you no longer have the responsibility Which means that nobody has the responsibility Well, it just means that nobody does do they really But it does that make sense that the data must exist for perpetuity to potentially be used for whatever purpose Potentially horrifying by something like the wow or you you know Yeah, when the wow is simply trying to make life In whatever way it thinks it should Well, that's the thing we see all of its creatures. They're all of different levels of consciousness ability and uh sort of aggression levels Yep Because a lot of the people that we power down. There's no reason to think that a wow cable won't eventually attach and power them up Yeah That's yeah, you might notice that in the um, you might notice in sarah's room Uh, if you if you looked at the the presence of the wow and the gel There were tendrils that were making their way towards her. Yes Um, it's just the wow is given enough time pressing in they're getting there. Yeah, it's pressing in on her Because it's just when you look back on that room It's just like yeah, this is the last of humanity stuck here at the bottom of an ocean of the ocean With all of the pressure of the environment closing in with the wow closing in just sitting there on life support It's like, yeah, I mean, this is pretty this is pretty metaphorical. Um, I'd say pretty uh Yeah, she's adding what is essentially the egg for the future. Yeah, chapter of humanity Exactly, which you know itself was pretty close to getting consumed by the wow But now it's up there in space and maybe humanity's got a chance maybe in a totally different form Yeah, you know Slim chance aliens will find us and plug us into their tech and save us Mm-hmm Which you know Again, it's not going to be humanity. It's going to be something different. I think you have to accept it Something different, but the same at the same time makes you think this whole game makes you think Simon's appealed to it when she says she wants him to kill her.  Shouldn't you? You know just keep going just because of this this is it's so nuts Like even she has trouble with this like all of every decision that every human has ever made has led Now to this one person in this room.  We consider good. Meanwhile, the while we at that point consider cancerous and evil. Yeah That's a pretty neat game. Yeah, that's sober everybody. Um Um And uh as like I've mentioned it before soma is the greek word for body And soma is the name of the uh the drug right in brave new world Yeah, let me bring we're talking about it uh before you jumped in rags that like I feel it's very purposeful to have chosen that as the name being that The body is pretty much the big reason people would separate what is human and what is not Because the whole point in this game is that it's pretty much impossible to distinguish the humans from their mental capacity versus their digital versions or A lot of the other ones so it's like Well a human being that's in a that's brain dead I mean, it's not nearly as difficult to say that that's not a person anymore than it is to say an actual human consciousness That's in a robot is or isn't a human. That's a lot more especially when it acts like a human talks like a human, you know Seems yeah, that's way more difficult for us to distinguish which is kind of part of the point Well, and if you take away every part of you accept their mind and yeah, if you treat this hardware and software, which is a very You know Uh ill advised probably simplistic way to look at it Then even brain death could be considered like uh hardware death as opposed to What is going on with uh simon which is like human software on a Well at first you'd assume entirely um mechanical system, but then we find out halfway through the game that he's actually a combination of human flesh and the uh structure gel And I just helped some of his suits some of his suits. There's a corpse inside of them I mean there's a well, so that and that's the thing For any the girl who was trying to destroy the wow.  It's like oh, there's a there's a reason that it was like that There's a reason you're being compelled to take the gel down there. Mm-hmm. Um Yeah, so That's uh games. All right. Yeah, that's soma. Um that's uh I'm gonna be thinking about it for a while Um It's fun to look into the um the station names and what they mean as well their equivalents. I did it for my video But I can't remember them all now Uh, well, yeah, I mean, I'll be I'll probably be doing that. I'll probably be watching some videos on uh, I haven't seen yours stuff That's so much so That's uh, there's a lot to think about a lot to look into read about a lot of it And in retrospect is kind of unfortunate, but I don't know it's kind of necessary a lot of it It's vitriol toward people who didn't like it But they do obviously they did a lot more than not like it. Yeah, um, yeah it's the point the point being that um Yeah, it's uh, it's something that I'm gonna keep thinking about and sort of developing my perspective on Which is uh, it's really good when I can get that kind of experience Um, the fact that I was stuck on some of those choices for a while, you know Um, I like I've said it so many times, but I guess it just bears repeating. I found this a very captivating game um It's gripping and uh thought provoking It's really well made I really really I don't know if enjoyed as the word that I would want to use to describe it I uh was very engaged by it Uh, what did you choose for um, whether or not you killed, uh Old simon, uh when you were swapping, uh, I decided to uh, I decided to uh, delete that uh, Yeah, I decided to erase uh old simon Okay, I yeah, did I hide you ranks? I did not kill him Okay, interesting To me, it just seemed like why he's in here. We know what's going on So, oh well, um, there's a couple reasons that I was uh, that I think about it is if I am a copy of If I copy my consciousness into another suit in order to go deeper, right? Am I going to have to do that again? If I have to do this again Knowing that I killed the last one that I did this to That would make me extremely hesitant To upload my consciousness once more into something else Knowing that the last time I did this My new version is going to kill the current me doing this thinking Secondly, um You can Um, I think there's this this element of I was just This is quote unquote lots of quotes here. I was just that person And I wouldn't have wanted to die Uh, if I want to kill myself later, I can do that But that is a line that you can't step back from whereas Eventually, uh, I think there was a time when he would wake up or repower up something like that Um, which means that I think as far as I know that right now like in the game There will be another simon that the an old simon that you played as previously will wake up from that Um, and he'll be at least in that station and He can do what he wants to do with his life and what's happening, right? I I don't think I don't think it Would be as right of me to rob my old version of that choice that they can make for themselves Um, and it would be duress either way. So Such as uh, such as the nature of the decision Um, but I think those two reasons in particular were like, yeah, I'm going to let him live And what he does is what he does at least I'll have a chance to do it for himself Why why did you decide what you decided Frank? My thinking was I don't even understand what it would mean to leave him in a position where like he has no equipment He can't like he can't do anything. He's stuck in this room presumably Just to wait until the wow comes in and in the meantime to consider exactly what has just happened Which is as far as he's concerned a massive betrayal totally not what he wanted um And then I was thinking about like the whole idea of um The sort of like a matter of perception in terms of like continuity of consciousness and stuff like that Um, I don't know it seemed like I I I definitely thought about all of those things of like Him essentially getting the choice But it just seemed to me like insanely cruel essentially leading to what would probably in all likelihood be the exact same outcome Anyway, or maybe even not because he might have been absorbed by the wow Like I don't even know if I don't even know if he has the means to like end his own life as a As a machine in that space like I'm not sure what that looks like or what that means So that was all kind of the stuff that was informing it. But again, it's Like all of the again, there was still definitely that whole looming thing of yeah But is this is this like simon two's choice to make for simon one? um It's again, it's just a matter of all of these choices. It's not it's not easy. It's like Two really difficult, you know propositions and then trying to figure out which one you think is I don't know the lesser of two evils But what exactly does that mean in this situation, you know, because it's kind of like depends on where your values It depends on what you think are like the higher values, I guess No, yeah test the hell out of him. Yeah I worry in that situation that uh I think I might if if he was awake and he knew about all of this I'm saying this if it's not me Is me, but you know if I said Just leave me um since like say for example, he was awake which kathryn could theoretically have woken him up early I don't know, but if he was um And he said Yeah, don't shut me down. Just go. I know I can't go with you because it's the abyss um And even if under these circumstances, he knew that the doors were all going to be locked as well So he just couldn't escape this room Even if then that he agreed to it, I'd still want to compel him. I'd be like We have our chance now to end you very peacefully As opposed to what may happen in the future Which is something much more horrifying and that you'd have to wait indefinitely for it which Boredom is considered one of the forms of torture as well Like I don't know. You just you got to really consider here This is your last opportunity and that knowing it is me means that I would be thinking about it as well as in like I can die quickly and easily here thanks to me turning me off or I can take a risk Where all likelihood points to immense suffering? I don't even see much of a likelihood at all for anything other than that Even with the the wow killed at the end of the game I don't know that he well, what's gonna happen to him. He's gonna eventually run out of power Regardless as far as I'm aware they all have a long time Stock at the bottom of the ocean So Yeah, I don't know. I just feel like if I turn him off now He doesn't even have to suffer knowing of the betrayal Well, it's kind of again I was thinking of the star trek thing right of getting beamed up Where it's like the if it kills the original and creates the copy It's kind of like the same situation has happened here essentially. He has no perception of what's happened But you know, yeah, such a somber, right? There's no easy choices. Exactly. It's so incredibly complex and Makes you think of all kinds of things Mm-hmm, which uh, I will continue to be doing over the coming days weeks and Months or you know, I yeah, this is uh, this is one that's going to stick with the memory I'll stick in the mind And yeah, I hope you guys found it interesting to uh, so watch. I mean you were watching them all I want you to think of it all Oh, it's as uh entertaining as I often find it good engaged with soma playthrough It's um watching people gradually realize everything and struggle with the choices. It's uh, It's what the best of let's plays are supposed to do. I don't need to see you going Every second Is he gonna is he gonna go ah when the thing jumps out at him? Oh, he did as if he had a 12 Well, the funny thing is you did freak out a couple times because tins out The game is pretty scary at times with these monsters and things Oh, and yeah, even even beyond all of that right we talked about it briefly But the art direction is amazing. The sound design is fantastic. I need to listen to the musics for this game Ironically what I would probably say are the two most atmospheric games I've played or games that take place in the bottom of the ocean as well as the other one subnautica. Yeah Uh Yeah Well, I've heard a lot of things about subnautica and how it can be like very terrifying and super atmospheric Oh, yeah, but buyer shock. Yeah, but ioshock is uh big big high tier top when everyone needs to play I'm happy to see prequel Uh tv shows from hbo go. Let's do it Maybe one day Well, bio shock is getting something. Oh, yeah, that's right. Yeah soma's just Nobody cares about soma, which is really unfortunate. But whatever. That's the will we're in. No, well, I care about little mini series Live action stuff they did on youtube is definitely worth watching. It's uh, it's really cool. Okay, interesting Well, you know, even if nobody else cares about soma, I care about soma, right? That was a that was a really riveting experience And thank you all for joining me on this adventure Um, it's been interesting and it's made me think and it's gonna keep making me think I know if you all found it worthwhile, um So, yeah, that'll uh, that'll round it up uh for this here playthrough. That's yeah, that's I mean, what more is there soma and uh, yeah Yep, that's soma. Wow. What a great conversation. How interesting. Yeah, that was good. I really enjoyed having that chat How are you rolling and the thing is that's right Not even over that's the conversation one of 10 000 that we'll have over time about soma referencing Yeah, it's gonna get talked about Yeah after all these years Beautiful now the other thing that we were gonna do because it feels it just feels about right is to Take a trip down memory lane to go back to a video that when it was released I haven't seen it. Well, yeah, I mean for me certainly for rag someone and for you not at all That's why it's an interesting dynamic. Hey, it's uh You know when soma first came out I Adored it. I thought it was incredible one of my favorite streaming experiences of all time and then I was like, wow, what does everyone think and I remember checking the steam reviews and being like, oh What's going on? I remember people saying like the gameplay sucked. I was just like gameplay But it's like the dark descent. I'm basically a carbon copy of the dark descent and you love that It's like it's mainly well the the freight walking simulator kept coming up and I was like, what the I mean Somewhat, but like that's the format that would be suitable for the and then it's like wait a minute How much do people even like sort of get what soma was trying to do versus it being a You know a sequel to the dark descent, which is totally not what it is At all you could tell by the name and the setting and the characters. Yeah, but not by the development company though I could appreciate looking at a game that is you know a different name and seemingly going for a different thing and going Well, you know spiritual successor Yeah, it happens As someone who hasn't played have news of the dark descent. How similar are these games? Maybe they set themselves up for failure there because they made the penumbra games and the dark descent really is a refined penumbra Um, uh, well sure, but I mean, I guess would people feel the same way about something like blood born or sequitur Maybe they do Maybe they do that's right. I mean in a way There's there's things that are in those games that I kind of wish would be put into the next dark souls. You know like it's Yeah, right there's further connections there that can please fans and stuff But yes soma was just It was a disappointment to a lot of people and I was like what how did this happen? And it's weird because I think you probably even say fringy that its reputation is very high But not many people have an opinion on it Of the people who do it's very high We have an opinion of soma love it, uh, but not as many people are as interested in it as like m nature of the dark descent Yeah um And so back then different set of people I was hanging out and uh with and and we were sometimes checking out videos And I remember there was a time we were like, what is this? it was popular Review of soma breakdown by one of the bigger gaming channels guy called joseph anderson I was like, oh my good. Gosh. Let's check this out. And uh I almost I mean anyone to see my series. You know how I felt about it. I was not happy Um, and I also find it really frustrating because I feel like it damaged soma significantly Um with the fledgling reputation it had the The way that frictional benefited in the past is through online content creators And so having the biggest intellectual breakdown of the game being like, uh Um, you know, you get plenty of people saying like, uh, I will avoid this one when you could have done the opposite now It is fair to not like soma and it's fair to distance yourself from it If you think it's of low quality depending on what your references may or may not be you got to be careful because you know having a casual chat about it or a stream or Um, even like a steam review is is one thing but like having the quintessentially looked at video review where you do a full breakdown The first thing because this is the thing I haven't seen this video in genuinely like six years. So this is going to be weird, but um One of the things to consider I would say is the I assume you guys would agree if you're going to review soma Should probably play it twice Uh, I think it's I think it's worthwhile to play something twice It doesn't it doesn't Joseph Anderson do that though. It's typically isn't isn't that something that he does play games multiple times Um, I don't necessarily know for sure. I can't remember. I feel like he's a thorough lad though You like 100% it's like zelda mario games, right when he reviews them, I guess Yeah, that's right. He got every single uh, he got every single moon in uh, odyssey, which would have taken a while But but I guess that yeah the point being That you at least twice for a movie for a television show For a game because watching something the first time around or playing at the first time around and absorbing everything As it comes Versus knowing all of that information and then sort of you know seeing how it all plays out with an awareness of where it's leading It's just it can provide new insight But then of course, I suppose the counter would be like well No, I can give a review of anything from any amount of experience. I have with it surely It's like I guess so But do you want to be more correct or less correct?  It feels like playing it twice, especially if it's a heavily narrative and details focused game Probably important. There's probably some games you don't need to play through twice Sure, some of some are very simple by the time you've done it once You know, you've really gotten the breadth of everything But a lot of games are really complex and I got a lot of stuff going on not just in terms of the narrative But you know mechanics and builds and places to go and things to do So it's not like really it shouldn't be anything like different from what he normally does Well in any case, I guess the it's like the difference when you're running careers like this of widespread coverage of lots of things quickly Or more refined coverage of individual things that you want to deep dive into and as far as I was aware He was definitely the latter of those two um but We shall see I suppose with a critique of soma you guys ready to jump in To whatever may be contained with it. This is genuinely going to be nostalgic for me.  Jeez But Yeah, this is a short video. It's called pathos too. Hey There we go Soma like many games can be split into two parts. There's gameplay and their story The vast majority of games can be segmented like this. What makes soma exceptional is which part it executes well I can't remember how many times I've said to myself. Well, the story is terrible But there's some good gameplay here. Soma is the opposite The story here is quite literally outstanding Elevated far from the usual stuff you see in video games, but the gameplay side is a total failure A total failure But here's the thing it's but surely he must he he has to have said this then about the dark descent I don't know. I don't know if we'll get And if he's consistently wrong it's something I I didn't want to because this video is long I don't want to but like you can divide most games into gameplay and story already. I'm like man I was gonna pause on that. Yeah. I was like Divided into gameplay and story Most games can be divided into gameplay and story a lot of games have like no context for what's happening A lot of games are just mechanics, you know, what is the context for tetris for instance? Um, what is the context for a lot of puzzle games? But I mean, you know even even putting that to one side you can divide something into gameplay and story It's like yeah, but I mean they kind of Like they blur together. It's kind of a blurry line in a lot of video games, you know The narrative and the story You know choices in gameplay for instance and how they affect story. I mean that's partially gameplay, right? Or uh potential is curious. It's like what it where does lighting come in? It's like story like Level design. I mean because god damn you can have conversations about level design And and in terms of the layout but also the kind of information that's being relayed to a player about this place What's happened in this place? um, yeah Yeah, like I I don't know. I wouldn't have led with that as an observation because I feel like I feel like you can Talk about that for hours. He wants to do the thing and being like, yeah So almost got a great story but shitty gameplay or failure such an interesting thing because that's the The last word I would describe it with because I'd be like, yeah, it might be thin or it might be Not exciting, but it's not a failure. It's a it's a complete success. It achieves everything it needs to and wants to That's a complicated one as well. What does it mean when it fails? Is it that it fails to be what it was trying to be? Or can a game succeed at what it's trying to be but what it's trying to be was misguided? Or tell me what it's missing. What did soma's gameplay need? Well, I guess you're gonna get there, right? I guess oh This opening statement, but it's a frustrating one because we already feel I imagine between the three of us is going to be very difficult to justify Yeah, but let's see For me, that's okay I can play some games for the story as long as that story is good And just because the gameplay is in my opinion a waste of time doesn't mean that soma fails to use interactivity in any meaningful way Isn't that an interesting thing to say? Even though I think it's a waste of time it uses its interactivity in like clever interesting novel ways Joseph for less than a minute in and you're contradicting.   At this point you have to do as best faith possible and say that he's now divided up gameplay into the failure part and the Sometimes okay part and the failure part is when you're running away from monsters I would have said don't don't lead with the statement that you could divide most games. It's a gameplay and story then Just like skip past that entirely I mean we'll probably go over this the more time goes on but like We've said before the soma needs to be a first-person game and it needs to have you pressing buttons and looking at screens and shit And it may sound like tedious like why am I having like wouldn't it be better if I just saw all this happening? It's like no you need to be making these choices and you need to to Feel what it's like to be like Simon moving through this world with that pov You rarely have to acknowledge that you're a robot Instead you're just a guy trying to see this in his yeah, you need to contextualize this in the way that he would Very important that not only it's this pov But also these mechanics and it seems like he has a vague handle on that but then he also says it's a failure So it's Only moments that are made more poignant because it's being told in a video game That simply wouldn't have the same effect in a movie or a book. Okay I'm not saying we should go dig up Roger ebert so he can play soma, but this is one of the strongest stories I've seen in a game Soma is a science fiction horror game that is not nearly as scary as it may first appear If you're I See that's that's the opposite of the truth Yeah, that is the opposite it gets scarier the more you think about the more you understand what's happening the scarier it is Because when you arrive and it's like this sci-fi facility that's all dark and there's like wires sparking and stuff It's like oh, this is like your sort of casual horror You know, oh my god. Look at this. Oh, this is spooky. Yeah, and then when When you get the lights on and you're in relative safety and you talk to people You'd be like, oh, see it's not very scary now.   I don't know. Maybe his brain didn't engage with it I'm not sure Well, uh, it was it was like over five years ago, but we covered his uh What is it called something is implied subjectivity is implied, isn't it? Whereas the videos The point of his video is that every statement made in his videos is supposed to be subjective not Objective even though he like everyone else draws distinctive language to define when he's talking about something being there and confirmable versus something He felt because that's what everyone does And of course you will blend those At times everyone does I don't I complete to understand that's just sometimes you make mistakes We uh Ain't something is a thing for example. This game isn't scary. It's not a horror game. That is a you haven't even gotten there It's a game. Just don't even just it's a game. It is a game objectively It's not it's subjective statement that soma is a game It is a game because you're a human rags And I would never I would never cripple myself to such a degree by saying that everything I say is implied to be subjective Maybe i'm misremembering and he only meant like Certain statements or whatever, but yeah, I just I remember that being the thrust of it because You got in some level of pushback for a lot of his like More brash statements, but I mean he went into how You know like horror doesn't scare him at all anyway, which Is the kind of context you really need if you're gonna be I don't believe him I don't even know what to make of it because he brought up hillhouse funnily enough That's that's around the time he was making the video with that came out and how um I think tv shows and movies and stuff Aren't as scary on any future playthroughs or whatever We'll watch this because you know what's gonna happen to them. I I can't remember the specifics of it. It was very strange Area as it may first appear if you're easily startled and don't like that kind of experience And you still may want to avoid it But the story in this game is worth your time if you play games for that reason And that's the end of my spoiler warning The beginning of soma proves how important expectations and tone are when you experience anything Virtually anyone who plays this game will find out beforehand That that already is pretty bizarre because if you're coming off of the dark descent What gameplay are you expecting from frictional? Um because as I've said soma's gameplay is basically the dark descent's gameplay. Yeah So I don't I legitimately don't know how he could bought again Maybe he said in his dark descent review if he reviewed it that the gameplay is a total failure And if he is at least he's horrifically consistent, but uh Okay The beginning of soma proves how important Expectations and tone are when you experience anything Virtually anyone who plays this game will find out beforehand that it's meant to be scary a horror experience So after the game gets through its introduction and you wake up in the main character's apartment You were going to be immediately on edge. You might even ask what's wrong with this picture Why does the apartment seem so ominous even though it's um? Hey, I mean what is going on here? What exactly? I mean if we couch it behind the safe words of you might feel like and I I guess you could ask it might feel like the apartment's ominous Sure, I know it feels like he's ramping up to a critique here though in terms of like that This is an expectation that was set up Uh, but it's not the case. There's nothing scary You know, there's nothing overtly scary about this apartment Well, then I just have to highlight like so what about the person who plays this and is like Okay, I'm in an apartment. I wonder what I draw from this apartment Not everybody's expectations are like it's it's kind of hilarious, right? It's like everybody enters into things with expectations and that can cull your experience It's like sure but everybody's expectations are going to be different even if they hear the same thing Depending on the horror stories that they've consumed or just you know depending on their temperament And I just I'm not quite sure I always come back to like why can't we just take it for what it is Why do we have to start judging it based on it's like well? It is friction. Oh, this is a game after the doctor said no These are all of the biases I'm bringing into it Yeah, thinking of the people who play this knowing nothing about it. What about them? Is it good for them? Oh, well, we'll wait until he gets because you're right. You're like, why is he setting this harsh ground work? Is he gonna be doing it's a horror game It's a horror game that means this apartment is ominous Is ramping up to a criticism My guess would be that he's ramping up to a criticism that like these expectations that were built up That were the faults of summer for existing were lot not satisfied This may seem like a minor observation that if you know what genre a movie or a game is ahead of time that you will immediately start to anticipate certain things But it's important to know for later when we get to how the game starts trying to scare you But that's well after this introduction because there is nothing lurking in this apartment or the subway ride that follows it Or the eerily empty office that you arrive at Yeah, it's like the real world Yeah, man, I I've always assumed us that they do that on for the purpose of showing you simon has a very normal life normal apartment Yeah, it's uh travel Really emphasize the fish out of water aspects of the story going forward Hello Dr. Munshi Let's rewind for a minute though Summer is a game about a handful of things but at the center of it all is a man named simon He was recently in a car accident that resulted in one of his friends being killed and left him with a terminal brain injury This is told in a sort of awkward way at the beginning at first with the nightmare sequence And then with some forced dialogue after simon wakes up the first few minutes of the game were the weakest part of the story The voice acting is also less than what you're so this is forced dialogue and the voice acting is bad Is what he just said for the call that's about he's about to play But I would also say like awkward dream sequence. It's like how is a dream supposed to look? I My dreams are never awkward or strange. I did this room like like what a Surely you have to give a bit more meat on the bone for that criticism You can't just say like the dream wasn't the way I think dream should be Is that all we're getting for it? He just throws out. Yeah, no the dream sequence is all dream was awkward And then the exposition afterward is forced and the voice acting is bad. It's like Okay, let's see the voice acting then to I have a criticism I think that the base of that lamp is way too small and that thing probably tips over I think you're right small Simon you need to get yourself a better lamp. I know you accidentally knock it over all the time Don't use your brain injury as an excuse to me like oh, I can't take care You can operate a phone and pay your taxes so you can buy a lamp that doesn't fall over all the time And I'm pointing that out is so I can commend how much better it gets as the game progresses Brain scan, I remember Are you all right? Yeah. Yeah, just a bad dream. Are we still on for today? The events So as well he has variables that would Protect against a lot of what could be perceived as bad acting being that he just woke up and he was just shaken by a very horrible nightmare Um, so you can you'd have some allowance from sounding a bit strange, which is what I think munchie picks up on He's just like are you all right? And he's like, yeah, yeah, I'm fine So no I got got nothing for you there. That's a bit weird, but all right Here are about Simon going to visit a doctor in training that is developing an Experimental procedure that could resolve the damage left by the car crash It's a chronic bleeding problem in Simon's brain The doctor thinks he can use a scanning machine to identify the issue in Simon and then run him through a rapid series of stimuli Basically putting a simulated version of Simon's brain through a massive amount of different treatments until one works Which can then be used on the real Simon once the simulation confirms that it's effective You can see in this conversation that the game is still awkward here This exchange didn't feel natural, especially given the earlier phone call and that Simon should really know all of this already Ultimately, it doesn't really matter though Part of the reason why he may not is because the fact it's very slap-dash This is like a startup. They're trying technology that's untested. They don't actually know this is all going to work This is all experimental isn't Simon there like core legacy scan. He's like the first major one Yeah, he was the first one Yeah, that's why a lot of this is being introduced and understood as it goes because even munchie doesn't fully understand the work he's making We're gonna do a scan of your brain Then we build a computer model of it and bombard it with stimuli What I want to say about this part is more about me personally because it was really surreal at first This game starts out in Toronto. That's where I live the doctor here is a student at york, which is where I went to university I also have a problem with regular nightmares like Simon appears to suffer from and my mom died of a brain aneurysm And I've had several scans to make sure I didn't have the same problem So even though this was a coincidence I felt like the game was screwing with me on a second level in addition to the usual bracing for jump scares because I knew It was a horror game This isn't important for the review Of course, I just thought it was funny enough to mention because the game got to me a little more than I think it would have otherwise You know I have a serious condition, right? You heard about the car crash the x months to live deal Soma abruptly changes at this point and arguably this is where the game properly starts The brain scan commences and when it's over you're no longer in the doctor's office You're in some foreign industrial looking room. It's dark. You're alone You nor Simon have any clue about what's going on This first area gives you a lot of hints about where you've been apparently teleported to There's some technology that is clearly advanced despite its bulkiness The corridors are reinforced imposing and abandoned. I mean, I I guess I just listened into these accurate descriptions of it. Yeah, um You know just sort of mostly set up in a little anecdote Yeah, you know Parts of it are locked away. There are some robots one of which promptly goes crazy and runs away shortly after you leave it alone Your vision isn't functioning as it used to as you can see here And you're able to access memories from some places around the area like you're hallucinating some sort of ghostly echo of the people that were here before you It's working better than expected. They're having a really hard time getting the doors open If you're like me, you'll immediately guess that this is the stimuli that the doctor was talking about It's pretty obvious that this is the test he's running somehow It's resulted in this weird futuristic base that is a representation of simon's brain Blocked passages around you are blocked pathways that need to be opened in his head Something called structure gel that appears like black blood that the robots leave behind Represents the bleeding that keeps happening in his brain The corrupted vision and the broken memories you can access are glitches twisted versions of his own memories and the friend simon has Along with the simulation threatening to distort or crash if he becomes too stressed out The game will be about opening all of these pathways and then defeating whatever Personification that the simulation creates to serve as an adversary for the bleeding in his brain Likely linked to the friend that was killed in the car crash at the start since he's brimming with guilt about it And if you guessed all that you are completely wrong just like i was I don't feel bad about this and neither should you because i think it was deliberate I mean How how long how long are we to believe that he thought that was the case? I i'm because i'm i'm listening to him say all this and i'm i'm kind of like pausing and thinking Like in what way would Why would you just not take information as it's given to you without well, so it's kind of interesting Like i definitely had in the back of my mind during my playthrough Thinking about essentially what the treatment was but i think that what you're meant to make of that Especially with the Brandon section is like that's kind of what that treatment would have looked like um Potentially right for the for the scan of simon and all of the copies that would have been run through simulations But running with the the conclusion like that it wasn't what was being presented at face value, which is that you are You know like you're like a duplicate recreation of simon in the future in this place that all of these things are actually happening Am I did he believe that for like the whole game that that was actually the case? And it was only at the end that he realized that he got it completely like that that wasn't the case at all Maybe it's a matter of he was so sure of his interpretation. He blocked out all the other potentials But like they tell you what's happening throughout the game. They're i mean, it's actually Like you don't like meeting captain That's a story that's playing out there at face value that just follows You know what i mean So you're sort of suggesting like it just feels weird that he would have been able to maintain this pov Despite all the information that would have all the facts to the opposite At some point I figure that you would switch away from thinking so much about that to just taking the story at face value for what it is You know, it seems like it It seems like this interpretation loomed over his entire experience Which is kind of interesting because for me it was just the thing that was in the back of my mind of like Man, I remember like at the beginning when I was reading that um that like newspaper article that was talking about it Like that was really interesting Um, yeah, I don't know. I'm not sure I don't know what to make him this is an observation Well, I wonder if it would have made you go with a hunch or Sticking with it even despite all the contrary elements the story and the characters that present to you At the end that he doesn't like what could we rewind like 10 seconds? What what he said right after he relayed this? Adversary for the bleeding in his brain likely linked to the friend that was killed in the car crash at the start Since he's brimming with guilt about it Ashley And if you guessed all that you are completely wrong just like I was I don't feel bad about this and neither should you because I think it was deliberate There are two reasons why the narrative gives so much attention to simon's life in toronto at the beginning and this is one Oh, and also that flashback he has about uh, the girlfriend that that or it's not really a flashback But by the time you get there Like he should have been completely disillusioned about his yeah, you're well through faser at that point Before that yeah, like this is one of the you've had it explained to you at that point that you've yeah What you are and how you're there yeah Yeah, you know your goal of launching the arc, uh, you so you kind of got basically the grasp of the story Someone's gonna say you could was that I wonder if because of the fact that he was on that sort of mode That any piece of information he would either ignore unless it fit with what he was thinking and didn't Like sort of interpret it for what it was which is kind of ironic because like You know if you just if you've just done that you might have been able to take the game for what it was simpler and easier than running with like a metaphor or An allegory or like an in-universe Simulation that's supposed to represent things and he's got he's trying to like crack the ending to a game that doesn't even exist, you know Maybe um, it's just so weird normally if I play a game and I'm getting You know I I see the setting and I'm getting some little storytelling elements and world building elements from what I see And what's around me. Yeah in my head just naturally and subconsciously There's sort of like my brain tries to Think about why things are the way they are But it's just hunches and guesses when I actually get all the information about what's really going on here That I'm like, well, I was wrong about that or I was right about that I guess the thing is that him getting the information that is the actual plot of the game doesn't necessarily preclude one from continuing to believe Yeah, but I mean who knows how elaborate this you know this simulation could end up being And I guess all it's just like yeah I mean I guess but there's a story that's playing out here that at face value has all of these elements to it that I don't know. I find it strange, but it's it sounded like he was saying that well You know, I think it was deliberate like I think that this is a consequence of a deliberate choice They made of starting off the game in the modern day before he gets to Um pay those two Which is going to be interesting because to me I feel like there's a pretty clear and obvious reason why you start here It's that This is how you want like this establishes the fish out of water dynamic. Yeah. This is like a baseline Experience and what his original version certainly believes that you know, he is fully and totally Um without this section here. Yeah, I think the game would lose a lot of context without having the the real world I mean, this is why you know, it's particularly important in terms of the continuing duplication of simon Having this Be here. You need this. You're getting further and further away from the original. I mean, there's I mean There's a reason we spend 45 minutes in the shire before we kick things off It's a An eternal sort of baseline for how the world is and what we need to try and get back to and save and In the same way you saw with normal life Yeah, but what what does he think the reasons are let's see One of them along with opening with a nightmare It's misdirection and I think it's great. It also gives you a reason to accept why you're suddenly in a vastly different It's not misdirection. I would I would rather call it mystery than misdirection in terms of the opening But the thing is I talked about in my video. I remember is that if you just read everything that's on the screens in the first room You can crack everything that's happening to you Which is cool. It's really cool. The the mystery Is gradually revealed across the game very explicitly such as like, oh, I'm not a human I am a robot you will get that like an hour and a half into the game But obviously you could figure that instantly you could have been I think there's people who played this game Who were like he scanned my brain and now I'm here. Is this has my brain been uploaded to something You know, it was um, it was uh, uh, damn, uh, the first guy that call, right? Yeah, yeah Says like what are you talking about? I got I got my human hands here Like at that point that's something that should click because you've seen simons human hands Up to that point. Yeah, and the fact that this guy is acting like a human, you know at that point you'd be like But if um, I don't know if the if you told the developers like I like how you Misdirected me into thinking this was all a simulation. I feel like they'd be like well, you Uh, you could assume that you could assume a lot of things. I don't know that we I don't know that they would say like they were hoping you'd think it was a simulation as a misdirection Yeah, I don't I don't imagine that they were like man, you know mission accomplished when the majority of people believe that this is a simulation I don't know about yeah, I think they just they want you to feel dropped into a horror sci-fi scenario And the uh, you know gradually you get to understand it which removes some of the more So to speak terror aspects, but then introduces a whole lot of more existential horror aspects I mean, is it less scary if it's a simulation or a hallucination? In terms of the way that soma in terms of what soma has to say, you know, no, it wouldn't be any less simulation seems scarier to me Place because otherwise really how the hell did you get here after just being in a doctor's office? The information you're finding you don't know so you can withhold judgment Yeah, you don't you don't actually have to decide instantly But that just goes to show you how intricate the matrix really is you see Your finding says that the year is now 2104. There's seemingly no rational explanation for it The real answer in the sci-fi horror game. All right I mean, yeah, I don't I guess he's just saying that's the first it's weird But you get answers very pretty quickly. Like it's not well, you know super late in the game pretty pretty substantial error again It's becoming a pattern. It's unfortunate so if you are going to tell us that you're bringing a lot of Essentially baggage with you understanding that it's a science fiction horror themed game Um, especially if you know the greek of the name I don't know how you can say how did I get here? There's no rational explanation Like well, you've already admitted that you're bringing the baggage of it being a sci-fi Oh now I get what you mean by yeah Like there's going to be thousands of rational explanations and a sci-fi story because it could be all kinds of things.  What do you mean? There's no rational explanation It's magic It's a magic spell The entire plot of soma which is mostly about the events that happened here in the future The place you're in is an underwater base called pathos That's strange about the events that happened here in the future is an interesting I was actually gonna say wrong. It's just interesting. It's an interesting sentence. It's Did he want to say to us Here in the future like like this is where we are. We're in the future or the Events that took place. It sounded like he was saying events that took place before we got here, but also in the future Yeah, it's an interesting strange sentence, you know help pathos too and it Help pathos too and it's more of a research base or a factory than rapture was a city in bio shock It has several different sites that serve different functions and you'll go through most of this place throughout the game I don't know if you'd call that several at this point. I think we've we've we've gone past several I don't know what you call this. What would you call because you have sorry Woo um So you have you have a few that's like a couple, right? I see a couple is two a few is three. Okay. That's that's how I see several is like several Several is like four to ten I feel like I always felt like several is like three ish No, I feel like several is a reasonably big number. The lowest I'll go for several is four Yeah, I exactly I'd say a few because yeah couples two a few is like three or four and several is more than that Definitely. Yeah Okay, because I because when I hear several I've just always been like three four maybe Man, okay. That's for me several couldn't mean a lot. Uh, it could mean a lot. Um, a few several Well, the thing for me is that what's being described is like how many stations we visit and you described it as several Yeah, I feel like we went to several stations. Well the irony, I guess I would have said is that we go to all I think Upsilon a and b lambda delta theta on the ground tower and fire. We go to all those places, right? I think we do. Yeah I just didn't know if several was like a lot or what that really meant to a lot of people So before we get to that, let's put the story on hold for a moment for two reasons The first is that I think the video will flow better if we can loop back to the story after looking at gameplay And secondly because I want to show a massive problem that soma has before spoiling the story Here we go Just in case this problem ends up being strangely positive for a lot of you watching This might convince you to play it yourself before I go on to spoil it And that problem is soma isn't really a horror game. It's There it is. This image has lived in my head for a long time Joseph Anderson everybody soma isn't really a horror game. It isn't scary I I can't do anything with that statement. I can't do anything with it. It's just We've come across isn't a fantasy adventure story Yeah, it's it's not exciting or epic. It's it's to me. I was bored by Lord the Ring So it's no longer an adventure story. dodgeball isn't a comedy Yeah, because it wasn't funny to me. I mean soma is scary. Sorry for me at least that game is scary It is scary.  And it's like, I don't know. I guess that if it follows the trapper we get into the genre And then wow, I hate genre discussions, but if you're gonna say soma isn't a horror game I feel like what do you how what what do you think it is? I guess he says just a science fiction game. Oh Um, so what are all the horror? I mean, it's pretty it's pretty obvious that soma's goal as a game is to scare you It's uh, I see we gotta be able to go further than that, right? Like it's it's got I I almost want to get like caveman mode with this.  It's got people who are asking to be killed People who are hooked up to like devices that the body horror obviously just the aesthetics of darkness and yeah We got loads of darkness loads of lights in the dark Like the central sort of themes existential dread not being able to fight back against the enemies It's like I'll go to the server room where a creature Can't see and has no arms is like hobbling around and they're making horrifying breathing sounds that if it hears you It'll scream and run at you. That's not scary. You see that's just sci-fi And then you learn about what your fate is what's gonna happen to you What's happened to the people around you like how is that? I don't know man like this checks like literally every box Everything that you make of that as a person who isn't a robot in the future But as a human being living today and everything that makes you think about about the sense of self and where that's derived from Like to be like yeah, but I wasn't scared by it. Therefore. It is not a horror game is like baffling Yeah, you should go the other direction the all normal people go which is this comedy didn't make me laugh This horror game didn't scare me this This gets particularly awkward because it was that subsequent video afterward Right where he said that like horror games don't scare him in general because you can respawn So like why did he say this there is no such thing as a horror game if he can't be scared by any of them, right? I don't know since when was horror only when your life is threatened That's a that's a weird it's yeah, that's that seems like an incredibly limited view on what constitutes horror Like when someone threatens to your fate is to be like tortured or you're you're you're like you're strung up You're incapacitated forever or they do something to your mind or something along those lines Or they do something to people you care about absolutely And it like looking at this still it makes me wonder how many people watch this review played soma And they were scared out of their fucking minds and they're like wait a second He said this wasn't a horror game He said this wasn't scary and here I am terrified of these creepy ass monsters chasing me around in the dark Understanding that that was once a human Not to mention all of the existential dread So and that's that's to move on from caveman mode the The creatures that chase you in that server room I forget the specific name of the the type of monster it is But it's an amalgamation of several body parts and if you get a good look at it Like one of it is just a human face that's stretched across a lot of it Just like can you imagine that thing is alive? It feels things Imagine it was self-conscious enough to know what it looked like and what it existence is just like I'd rather not think about that.  Anyway, yeah, it's um, it's iconic you could say This screen is iconic Really a horror game It's not scary in the same ways that a lot of other spooky games are While I've ultimately decided that this is a good thing. It's abundantly clear to me that this isn't intentional Frictional how are you looking at it? How could you show this? And then be like no, it's not scary. It's not a horror game As he said rags The way that most are is like but the creepy monster trying to find you in the dark wanting to like do terrible things to you But that but that's that checks all the boxes Dark spooky monster danger can't fight back It's like you don't show this trying to make soma a scary tense experience and they failed Did they know this is the main reason why I said earlier that the gameplay in soma See what I mean like for me the whole You know They failed to make it scary. Does that not come across as a little more than subjective? How can you tell me that everything you're saying is subjective and then you choose the language they failed to make it scary Yeah, what does that mean? Do you mean to you specifically they failed to scare me is a very different statement What's just the statement soma isn't a horror game seems a hell of a lot broader than Sometimes I feel like it's like a pussy thing Like um, you don't want to say they failed to scare me because that's not interesting enough So you want to be like they failed to make it scary at all and then someone's like whoa, bro And then he's like, oh, it's fine. It's fine. I was being subjective. It's fine. It's fine. I was being subjective you're like, oh Oh, I thought you were saying something a lot more controversial and complicated But okay, because if ever we made the statement like this thing isn't scary I don't even know how I would go about justifying it even like tele-tubbies Really, well, no, there's probably some kid are those terrified of that Like wait, so you're saying it is scary.  Anyway, I don't even know what to do with that But save for sober. It's a broken statement What justifications are you gonna come up with and then just go a little bit. I just meant me It's like, well, okay, then say that There's a waste of time because it's largely about the robotic monsters that you encounter throughout the pathos 2 facility And the game tries so hard to get you on edge with the tense suffocating music the loud noises and crashing sounds It tries to assault all of your senses. It's screaming at you like a nervous dog. Hey, be scared. You should be scared right now Are you scared? You scared? I don't know what to do with this. Um, yeah, I feel like this is just be like, I wasn't scared by this game I'm brave. It wants you to be scared I suppose he's correct in the same way that telling a joke is over compensation for wanting people to laugh I mean, yes, they are using all of the tools available in the medium to Evoke fear in you, but he's saying that like it's a bad thing that they're trying to use these tools Yeah, like if you saw my jump scares fine If you saw him out last fine, I can understand what he's saying But at this point if we remove All of these these things so like the use of lighting the use of like Chromatic aberration, I think is the actual thing you can turn off Obviously fucking with your robotic senses because these creatures emit like all kinds of electricity in relation to the structure gel and the Pieces they're made of then of course like the context of I can't believe we're shitting on the soundtrack now, too This is like the fact that it plays at all the fact that it gets more tense the closer they get to you This is this is bad now These are the tools the game is employing to evoke fear in you Yes, so really it should be a matter of talking about whether or not they used effectively or ineffectively rather than that Used it at all. Yeah Is there anything that is being said about this that can't be said about the dark descent Things that part of the problem is I don't know. I'm sure he's played it. I don't actually know again Part of the problem is it's hard for me to watch this without thinking But yeah, but you made a video where you said that the reason why video games like don't seem to be capable of scaring you at all Is because you can respawn I don't even know what to make of any observations about the nature of a game being more or less scary when they Fundamentally can't scare you because you can respawn to me It is so opposite like I find video games have the capacity to scare me a lot more than a film Or a television show because of the interactivity It's like it's almost like I have a I cannot put red dots on bad guys. I'm gonna review a lot of first-person shooters there's um I guess Oh, sorry. Yeah, there's a really simple way of the they talked about it in the dev diaries. I think uh frictional where it's just like the There's a part in um the dark descent and it'll be interesting to see you play the whole game maybe a future halloween there for any better There's like an elevator and it's like you need the key to operate it and you're like, huh? And everything's pretty well lit.  And then and the frictional talked about it as like the reason why this is so strong Just because in a film the character is like, oh jeez. Well, I gotta get in there and the audience member You know pulls up their blanket stares at the screen like oh gee. I hope they make it But in the game it's like no you have to push forward You have to make the decisions Yeah, you you can't passively you can't passively just watch it play out You have to be if you freeze you're like terrified.   Yeah And when you're being told what your objectives are in a game, right? There is this element of yeah, that's stuff you have to do listen up It's not just gonna happen magically and passively by somebody else on the screen No, no you have to do these things I'm telling you to do and sometimes when you're being told that you have to go to the spooky You know dark place or whatever to get a beacon or a key or a latch or a component or whatever to progress When you hear that being told to you and there's that understanding of you have to be the one to do that It gives you a kind of sense of dread for what's to come. Uh, I mean, you know in terms of relating it to soma I think it's in theta when you're being pursued. Um You know, like the big sprawl. It's where you find real brandon where it's it's acres is chasing you in there.  That's a little bit scary There's a lot to do and i'm very vulnerable uh to this monster and there's like that anticipation Something really unique too with like at first it seems like an almost maze of corridors and doors and rooms And then you get a map and it's like you are here. You need to go here It's like so forward left down the hall and then to the left.  Okay, like open the door open the door open the door And like having those sorts of feelings. We were watching uh you do that part live I think me and rags so we're in a call and you you you were just like pressing the buttons on the elevators It's like doesn't matter if I go that don't care if the right floor just go Any floor that isn't this floor? Let's That was pretty much my thinking. Yeah, just any floor please But it's not scary the point the point being is that I found this game pretty scary Um, even even in the good old just yeah, you know, like most basic. Oh scary monster I think I even found it scary just in that regard the construct. That's the first guy you have an encounter with Um, I found him like sort of mid in terms of how scared I was First time played it but the the guy in the server room I remember being absolutely terrified on my first time through the game Yeah, and it was I it was um, I got the the experience. I imagine friction will one of me too, right? I would get halfway through the room. I haven't seen him yet No idea what he looks like I just hear him breathing and then this like slapping of feet Just over the side of the wall. I was on clearly going from In front to the left to the back to the left like I know he's very close and he's moving around where I am And like, you know, it's it's the theater of the mind as they say I'm imagining so much of what's going on over the side of that wall And I want nothing more than for him to never find me and then it's like To get the key slash whatever you need you have to press a button to activate and it has to charge for Is it like 20 seconds or something before you can pick it up and it makes loads of sounds So it's like you can stand next to it, but he'll find you so You know, do whatever you want Oh my god Then yeah, usually you start to sprint out of the room But you might hear him activate screams and then his footsteps get faster and it's like The idea that all of this effort is like too much over the top I think I just I can't believe it sometimes because I think the scaling of You know scaring people in video games has gotten so crap in terms of how I I'm a huge fan of horror and I've said this over and over again. I have barely any Favorite horror it's it's it's there's a small selection because I chase that experience Like the proverbial dragon Knowing that I'll never get it Unfortunately, or at least we'll get it that often. Yeah It's just it's hard to get that level of terrified by a game A lot of the time even though I know that games have some of the best access to that emotional experience Yeah, if something jumps at me and for a second or two I'm terrified just because it's a natural reaction and then all I can think of afterwards is me rolling my eyes and going Good job, you know now you just annoyed me and frustrated me because it's just lazy and this is all you can do But at that point I don't walk away with positive experiences.   I'd say oh god. I had so much compliments for this I'd be like the atmosphere is almost perfect the little jitters in your in your visuals That's justified in universe making it slightly harder to make out what's going on this figure You can't quite tell what it is or what it does exactly and then the fact that like, you know, the music is like Like it's like a hum It's a hum. Yeah, the idea that this is over the top. You kidding me The enemy robots don't even yeah, the first time I say they don't even look scary. They don't even look I don't know what's how can you Because remember if a serial killer so we have ruled out no movie about a human serial killer can be Scary if it just looks like a person, right? I did he's wrong.  We'll have uh exhibit a b and c. Let me grab him. I was not prepared for this Yeah, this is You didn't think you'd have to go and look at all the creatures And all the fucked up amalgamations of flesh and metal that the wow creates Well, we don't even have to we probably should but we don't have to get into the fact that it's more than just what they look like It's what they are. Yeah, that's what they believe themselves to be Okay, that'll do It's a little bit low res but whatever. Uh, we'll start with Uh, do you remember this lady? I think we briefly were chased by I think you had a bit of trouble with her for any but then you completed this segment in a way that I hadn't even seen before I think If I remember oh, yeah, yeah, she's the one that was um standing like facing that was uh, that was in uh Before you go down into the depths. What was that? Uh, she was in that would make her in is it omicron? I think omicron. Yeah, that was what I was thinking. Yeah I was trying to distract her by making noises by throwing things Mm-hmm Yeah, you can the way you can defeat what they wanted I think from that sequence is that think of it as like you can only make So much sound before she'll activate but you can move Relatively slowly and you won't piss her off So they try and create a tense sequence, you know like mission impossible one with the Like you're trying to move very carefully get the battery and move away very the the reason that it gets very tense Is they drop a whole bunch of stuff on the floor and if you touch any of it It'll go clang clang and then she'll go And you're like, uh, yeah But yeah, I mean that's so very scary. No. No, of course and look at her.   I used to know it well I just I don't know why it's so low res but obviously these are the guys This is what I was saying with a face and there's there's arms and a feet around the whole thing Then like the barnacle things and it's just It's just disgusting. It's a it's a pool of flesh that's been like vaguely and horrifically constructed back into something That's gradually becoming humanoid. Maybe Like it feels like the wow's attempt at patch working a human out of pieces And yeah, the sounds it makes makes it so much worse, but you just wonder how aware this creature is And then of course, terry acres who Creates a sequence that is oftentimes considered one of the scariest in the game as well I mean look at that That's a that's pretty bad. Especially when you Like again the context of Who he is what he did Um I mean It's not very scary though. Not very sorry. No Now, um, if I was to be as fair as possible, he's only referencing the construct Unfortunately, he already said this the monsters aren't scary. So kind of ruins his whole point But if if we were solely talking about the construct enemy and someone said you will that one's not very scary This is the guy Um, I would be like, yeah, but isn't this a good one to start with? This one sure looks like a machine. It just looks like a machine.   He didn't find those scary and it's like you can't I don't even It's going beyond I didn't find it scary. It's like a broader criticism of the game itself Yeah, imagine telling people like this game isn't scary. It tries too hard to be scary and all the monsters in it aren't scary. It's like, uh And then ending it with for me.  The enemy robots don't even look scary The first time I saw one I ran right up to it to get a better look because I thought it looked cool Not creepy. I don't what whose fault is that? Like what uh, do you think that do you think that you are the insane outlier? I don't even know. What if I said I walked up to weska because I thought he was cool in resident evil What does that even mean mr. X looks cool Nemesis looks cool. What am I supposed to do with this? Exactly Yeah, it also feels like frictional realize they weren't that visually intimidating And what was that screen tearing effect to make it so you can't always get a great look at the things Okay, we clearly have a great look at him when you do that And secondly, like that is the way he's supposed to look he represents one of the loader droids or whatever that've obviously been It with structure gel and other pieces of metal and he's got an uploaded thing. That's how it's supposed to look Whether or not you find him scary is like, I don't know why it hasn't been accepted yet That this is like turns out people are scared by different things They weren't that visually intimidating, but the um I'm gonna get a good shot here use that Of the aberration, but he's saying like the screen tear effect to make it so you can't really understand It's like even with the tear in full effect, which I think I paused on you can see him The idea that frictional trying to hide this is stupid They're not trying to hide it It's just like a way of communicating how close or distant an enemy is even when you can't see them Yeah, it's it's it's tools for gameplay as well as you know having some narrow relevance Yeah, they gave it a justification in universe two This is the kind of marrying that we want it reduces Or increases verisimilitude, I guess Uh, I'd say increases it. Yeah And also recall you couldn't really look at the monsters and amnesia the dark descent Yeah, they well rags. They did that because they were trying to hide their awful looking monsters All right back to make it so you can't always get a great look at the things and have to fill parts of it with your imagination And okay now show us the other ones joseph now show us all the other ones Let the audience see the other ones so that they know that you're not lying when you say that they're all like these You know, they're kind of cool looking instead Again trying to convince you to be scared instead of being actually scary Stop I'm afraid you bring it back awful memories joseph Let's rewind even further. There's something that was said near the beginning. Yeah. No, let's not rewind Let's use the other examples. All you've shown us is two constructs Which are the same construct from the early point in the game.      You're like fine And it's her five minutes later in a different place. It's like that's the same thing. Why are you doing that? Expectations matter a lot Okay, so does the player's willingness to meet the game on its own terms Which I imagine is a really complicated issue when it comes to designing a game There will be people who go into horror games with the specific intent to not be scared Because they want to prove to themselves or the world that they aren't creeped out Interesting observation that is an interesting observation Joseph Anyway, moving on Yeah, I was like, well, let's not dwell on that game and it's silly scares don't work on them Or far more favorably They simply don't enjoy being scared and separate themselves so much that they don't engage with the game Or they claim they can't be scared by video games claim. They can't be Which is interesting right because that other video would essentially be an admission that Joseph Anderson Is incapable of meeting a game halfway because if you can die and respawn It's fucked. It's over. You know, like it can't achieve these effects Is that not an example of you not being able to meet a game halfway? Certainly not horror games Well, except if it has permadeath Or if it blows up even then I think You know, even he said like even permadeath ones are like Uh, I could have sworn it was something like it's more mechanically satisfying than like a horror experience At that point it's like can we can