Welcome to modern day debate everybody tonight. We're gonna be debating are there more than two genders and to start us off I think CSP is going to kick us out with the up to six-minute intro Ryan do you want you wanted to go first? You said you I'll go after okay All right, so welcome everyone tonight. We are debating the question. Are there more than two genders? To engage with this question. We have to ask first.  That is perhaps a conversation for another day Hopefully I'm hopeful then that those on the other side of this topic recognize a distinction between sex and gender I understand sex to describe the biological attributes of females and males and gender then to describe socially constructed roles behaviors and identities Which are in a spectrum which includes femininity and masculinity I pulled these specific definitions from a two thousand eighteen article from endocrine endocrine reviews highly respected journal with impact factor over 15 distributed through Oxford University Press and I quote the opening line of the abstract there Which says that a sex and gendered informed perspective increases rigor promotes discovery and expands the relevance of biomedical research I will probably post this Link just in case anyone's curious about where I get that from I'll post that in the chat So gender specifically then includes socially constructed roles behaviors and a spectrum of identities that include but are not necessarily limited by archetypes of femininity and masculinity which are themselves evolving and differ based on time and culture The recognition and acceptance of the existence of more than two genders stems from an evolving understanding of human identity within the scientific community not from some desire to be politically correct extensive research in fields such as psychology sociology and anthropology has shed light on the multi-dimensional nature of gender transcending traditional binary Classifications this growing body of scientific knowledge supports the notion that human gender identities encompass a broader spectrum while still acknowledging the intricate interplay of biological psychological and Sociocultural factors Embracing the scientific perspective allows us to appreciate appreciate and celebrate the diverse tapestry of gender identities that contribute to the richness and complexity of human existence All right. Well, that's all your your intro there. That wasn't quite six minutes So we'll hand it over to CSP and you've got up to eight minutes there to you expound Thank You Ryan for having me on this MDD again It's been pleasure and thank you to the audience who is listening in on this conversation in order to find truth through careful examination Before we start our debate today, we need to first define terms gender according to Webster's dictionary go Is the behavioral cultural or psychological traits that typically associated with someone sex Webster goes on to state that among those who study gender and sexuality a Clear delineation between sex and gender is typically prescribed with sex as the preferred term for biological forms and gender Limited to its meaning involving behavioral cultural and psychological traits in this dichotomy The terms male and female relate only to biological forms Otherwise known as sex while the terms masculine masculinity feminine femininity woman girl man and boy Relate only to psychological and sociological traits also known as gender in the nomenclature and non-technical context though There is no clear delineation and the status of the words remain fairly complicated My opponents will likely argue that these distinctions are superficial at best or downright arbitrary and harmful at worst Intuitively this kind of makes sense Well, we cannot rely on intuition as a basis of truth the World Health Organization defines Gender as the characteristics of women men girls and boys that are socially constructed This includes norms behaviors roles associated with being a woman man girl or boy As well as a relationship with each other as a social construct gender varies from society to society and can change over time I am sure that my opponents would agree with me and the World Health Organization that gender norms do vary from society to society And culture to culture and while we can point to social constructs that are broadly shared by all of humanity We can also pinpoint two different configurations that are not if we acknowledge that these are valid expressions of the human Experience then it is reasonable to say that there are more than two genders Let's turn to some examples a cursory look at two spirits Wikipedia page Discusses how various indigenous cultures didn't have a hard and fast concept of gender as being intrinsically linked to sex What I mean by that is that there are words for men and women who perform the duties of traditional gender roles of the opposite sex one such example is The I walk here a curate people's word often associated with a male body person living as a woman Among the Lakota people there is the win cat who were also male-bodied and lived as women or fulfilled some Ceremonial role that could not be fulfilled by either a man or a woman These concepts are not limited to just the indigenous people of the Americas either in Angola There were the Chebaidos who performed as spiritual arbiters in political and military decisions These people serve some sort of additional socials role outside of those performed strictly by males or females Further more concepts and explanation nations exist in these cultures for why they exist They have words that are separate from male and female. Why would I say that these aren't genders? But for the sake of argument Let's say that you believe that gender is made up nonsense and that all the matters is if you are male or female My first response to that be okay But that doesn't really tell me how I should live as One sex male or female my second response though is not so fast What aspects of one sex determine the essence of being a man or a woman?  Do we not recognize that a male can be more or less masculine than another male or even compared to a female and vice versa? Are we to ignore the intersex and chronological differences albeit where exist? If not, why do you think gender is strictly a binary? It is my hope that over the course of tonight's debate We will Look at these asictions or lack thereof and revealed that gender binary is wrong historically biologically and culturally and with that I yield the floor. Thank you All right, thank you so much CSB for your introductory statement. We're gonna kick it over to the other side but I just want to remind everybody That all of our guests are going to be linked in the chat for at marauder in a debate. We are a neutral platform We do debates on science religion politics. You name it so give us a like if you are enjoying this type of content and Also a quick reminder. We will be doing a Q&A at the end of this discussion So if you have questions for our speakers get them in now if you want them to be read early on in the QA And with that we'll kick it over to the other side. I'm pretty sure Capone. You said you wanted to start us out I don't know somebody am I wrong first? Go ahead. Yeah. All right By the way, I want I just want to say Sonny didn't know the format. She thought it was six to eight minutes between the both of us So mine will be a whole lot shorter. Okay Just want to say thank you Ryan for having us. I appreciate you having us on here Hello modern day debates audience clarity and truth in the realm of discussions on platforms such as tiktok Where you can find me under the handles such as Instagram Tony talks TT and tiktok Tony talks TT I'm currently banned give me 48 hours These links will be provided in the description for those who wish to Come see me now. Let us address the fundamental issue. Let us address the fundamental issues at hand The concept of gender which I believe should be understood as a reflection of our human conception of sex In this context, I assert that there are only two sexes and consequently only two genders allow me to restate this Perspectives in a more formal manner gender is intrinsically Gender is intrinsically linked to the biological sexes We are born with and the terms we use to describe these genders correspond to specific human sexes at different stages of life Therefore, I contend that the two genders recognize ought to be simply man and woman in terms of adults for children You have boy and girl when we consider the transition from childhood to adulthood this understanding extends to the terms boy and girl as Well by modifying the condition to encompass age we acknowledge that these terms aptly represent the two genders We commonly attribute to individuals at varying stages of their lives on to the meat of the conversation If there are not two genders, how many are there? There are various weak attempts made to answer this question and in order to answer this question We need to know what our opponents define as gender is gender a social construct is gender an internal perception is gender Psychological social or neuro biological maybe a combination of all three These are important questions to help us answer how many genders there are and that is my opening statement. Thank you Yeah, so just to expand a little bit upon what Tony said We will argue that there are two genders based on the premise that there are two sexes Male and female to address any intersex objections right off the bat male and female are just Defined genetically on which developmental pathway you undertake females do not have an expressed sry gene while males do This is just innately a dichotomy by defining it this way furthermore Many people argue that gender is a social construct because of gender norms gender expectations masculinity and femininity to which we ask the question of if it it if gender is a social construct Then why do we already have descriptors such as gender norms and gender expectations, right? So we already have words to describe what people expect of the sexes, but that's not what gender actually is in and of itself But with that I'll we'll get into the discussion later on so I hold my time All right. Thank you everybody for your opening statements there, and I'm sorry that I had to step out I choked on water that happens sometimes. I just didn't want you guys to have to hear me go Anyways, so let's continue on with the discussion. We're gonna kick it into open floor format We usually kick it over to the other side to launch us off. So Ryan CSP the floor is all yours. Let's kick it You want first or So so Zonfi and do you want to be called Capone or Tony? Whatever flows your boat really. All right. Well, we'll go with Tony since that's how I introduced so Zonfi and Tony You've already kind of like basically said that the Sexes are where we should focus for gender and that intersect people while they exist and they're they're valid They exist right you agree with that That because it is a some sort of developmental pathway that usually diverges That is they're gonna fall into one of those two categories Why do you think that as a clarifying question? Intersex people are male or female so the way intersex is defined is that you have characteristics of the opposite sex like for example a female might have an extra a Y chromosome with Sawyer syndrome or we have CAH syndrome or we have Androgen insensitivity syndrome with any intersex condition you can name the way I define the diversion of the developmental pathways was if the Sry gene was activated. So that's the way we define it. So How is that then? Really socially relevant to the entire conversation if we're talking about people that are that exist within outside of this Primary binary though as it existed throughout all of time. We're gonna go even into someone's Beyond their chromosomal makeup, but we're gonna go into a specific gene within that chromosome Then why is that useful to you? Yeah, so I think this kind of presupposes that I take utility as some type of measure for how I'm going to use a term Simply when I say this is the way I say what I'm referring to women This is what I'm referring to when I'm referring to boys. This is what I'm referring to So I would like to hear maybe a better definition if you have one But I don't think there's anything false about mine just because you disagree that it's socially useful and also another way to answer the question is one thing that I think the one way that this conversation always kind of falls into is the Essentially making different words mean the same things when they don't right so in terms of a like What is the social act like our definition of gender? You know one of the two sexes. What does that have to do with the social aspect? It doesn't because gender doesn't refer to the social aspects, right? And you kind of mentioned it in your opening statements as well Cypher or Anthony my apologies you mentioned it in your Opening statement that you talked about different genders in different cultures and then in the very next sentence You use the word gender norms, right gender norms gender roles gender expectations These are not gender. These are things that are typically associated with a gender, right? So to answer for the social part of it. It's like well those there are different words for that, right? Like you're right our definition doesn't Function in that sense because that's not the purpose of it Interesting. Okay. Go ahead. Yeah. Well, I I guess some So it's interesting that you remove all of those things from the umbrella term of gender like my understanding again Of gender is like it includes the socially constructed the roles behaviors and identities in that spectrum Why why do you think this is? Like why do you think this is so easily removed from the concept of gender? I think this is like what gender is is encompassing specifically But yeah, why why do you disagree with that exactly? Yeah, because I think we already have terms to describe masculine and feminine roles cultures behaviors Expectations without actually using gender such as boy and girl like we have feminine boys, right? Like a person can engage in every single Traditionally masculine trait and still be considered a boy. So this is clearly not how we define gender What what I mean It seems like a feminine boy would be a description of this person's gender expression and gender identity Like it combines their expression the feminine Presentation as well as the identity the being a boy It seems like this is perfectly This this make perfect sense within yeah Is by the way one quick thing zombie I knew I was forgetting one of them gender expression is another one of those terms that are kind of like all lumped in together Like you can express yourself however you feel right like if you want to be a man You'll be feminine fine. You'll be a woman. You'll be masculine or any combination of it. Like none of that actually What a quarter matters Sure, but this doesn't really explain the fact that we when when I read off the definitions I read it from both Webster's and World Health Organization direct quotes from both of those and they included these things such as gender norms and Expression because we have to we have to make a definition that is somewhat broad in order to encompass how other cultures might approach This from a sociological standpoint So we have to say gender norms in that because we can't just say gender because that's going to be different across cultures Which is also why during my opening statement that I've listed off various other cultures that have distinct language for these genders that we can define as a gender Inside that precept so so that was other cultures having something really has no bearing to me I know people often use this argument. Oh, we've had two-spirit indigenous people and historically transgender people have always existed of third fourth fifth Genders or sexes and I don't think this really has any bearing on the truth of the proposition because the same people also rejected germ theory Does that mean now we should reject germ theory? No, like clearly we don't have to I mean It depends on the culture, right? And then if you want to go that way then we can talk about how in the 18th and the late 18th century during the Victorian era There was the concept of androgyny and dandies and these were also distinct Expressions of a gender that we're and then we also had the trans people and etc Just because people historically believed something or historically practice it something has no bearing on if something is true or not That we as a society or as a culture should partake in it as well, right? Like there are plenty of actions I'm not gonna list any of them because we all we can all think it's terrible They're like different terrible things But there are plenty of actions that different cultures would partake in that we would say no We don't want to do that because we view I'm not saying that we should view the ideology is bad But they're just because I could another culture does it doesn't mean that we should do it also two quick things you brought up the definition from World Health Organization and Miriam Webster's when it comes to defining words Oxford is regarded as the as the dictionary for the English language and that's Defines the word and the odds are the Oxford definition actually kind of contradicts itself as well It's it's nonsensical in its own definition for point one and point two bringing up the two-spirit thing. So actually an Interesting part about that is and that's why I said like it the the way that People look at the gender discussion nowadays It only makes sense if you start conflating different terms and make make it so they all mean the same thing I actually have a friend who's who has native American Ancestry and she hates when people bring up the two-spirit thing because it's not defined It's not defined as a different gender what it is and almost every single instance that you could look at through history of different Genders is quite literally just you have a let's take a man Right and instead of doing things that are typically associated with men They would do things that are typically associated with women, right? And that's what and but they came up with a different But they came these cultures came up with a different language in order to or different terms I should say to define how these people exist in the world, right? Yeah, and while languages is a way to have a way to categorize How we interact with the world in order to define things and understand the world in in as bust way as we can So if these cultures created different terms for these people and they had different cultural roles in those different genders Then why would that be a Why wouldn't that be gender There are infinite genders then because I can only imagine why not I'm open to that as well. I'm open to that So you said that because they essentially had like different names for them in their cultures, right? That would make them a different gender, right? If they fulfilled different cultural roles then by our definition of gender then they would be a different gender Yes, it's a tomboy a different gender a tomboy a Tomboy does not necessarily mean that it's a different gender because they're still expressing themselves and all this other stuff And then maybe self-identify with etc etc etc, but we have a different we have a different expression for that So I think I just go ahead tomboy is a good example again Like like we like we brought up like a feminine boy and a tomboy in this in this case. We it's someone who's expressing a more masculine Presentation, so that's their social presentation. However, their gender identity is still out of a girl That's like the kind of definition understanding that we have of a tomboy and this does seem I mean this does seem to be a different I guess a Different construction of like a unique construction of a gender I guess Given these different pieces that we can put together to create our genders Being again, like the behaviors the roles the expression as well as the identity Babies are born a gender Not necessarily but they have to be because I don't think by your logic. They can have a gender identity or expression Yeah, I don't think they have identity or expression necessarily Yeah, so so first of all, I mean they are they're kind of assigned gender at birth for sure I thought it was assigned sex at birth on gender I mean, I think I think it's it's generally both traditionally. I think most people In that case use them almost interchangeable way. Why can't wait. So why can we assign a gender at birth?  So the proper way with their assigned sex at birth, right? I think I think well, I'm saying it's both I'm saying I am making the distinction And I'm saying that like both are done generally at birth I think that most people conflate them when they're assigning these things at birth Most people use female and girl interchangeably. Oh, yeah. Oh for sure.  So I yeah, I definitely wouldn't be disagreeing with that Okay. Yeah, but just to like give us a point So if a baby so what you should be advocating for is that they are a gender at birth though Because truly they should only be assigned to sex not a gender Because in your opinion, how can a gender be assigned if it is something that's socially constructed and whatnot can't be assigned That's your internal perception Well, you well you can be treated differently based on your gender and that's part of the the social like kind of social social and cultural like imposition of gendered roles So like if you are you're born you're a girl and they put you in Like a pink room rather than a blue room these kinds of things are gonna start like and a million other things are gonna start to shape Your your your gendered view of yourself as well as the world around you. Like I think these these things are These things do start pretty early like like those those impositions of gender roles like They start to act on you and on even even before you're born in some cases So honestly, that's a fairly new phenomenon as well. We're talking 1960s or so for the United States where we started differentiating between boys and yeah boys and girls clothing up until I think it was the age of seven Don't quote me on the exact numbers here, but that was generally what it is Person who calls themselves non-binary But who visibly presents as female or woman to most of society and then society treats them and poses these Expectations on them as they would a woman or girl Then if we're taking how people treat you as a qualifier for what your gender might be then they're not non-binary. They're just a girl No, because they're you it's the interplay between how how your house is how society treats you and how you yourself identify There's the interplay to that we have Is it both it's both for me for me what for me with the determining factor about like what someone's gender is for me That's just that's just the identity, but that's not gonna override how people treat you or perceive you right You can't necessarily impose like oh, I identify this way So I'm gonna make people perceive me in another way like it doesn't really work like that Obviously is where a lot of the the conflict around like gender dysphoria and things comes for trans comes from for trans people Right, so so when we you're talking about gender you're more so referring to gender identity and not gender expression if I understand correctly So when I'm referring to someone's gender, I'm largely like the determining factor for me for like what their gender is I'm I'm talking about gender identity And I will at times use those fast and loose, but I am specifically talking about gender identity But I acknowledge that their gender expression doesn't necessarily align with that And there's the perception of them in society also doesn't necessarily align with that and what do you take gender identity to be? It would be generally people are gonna look around at the world around them and they're gonna see okay There are these roles of women. There are these roles of men And there are these views of what these things are this is gonna be relevant to time place culture And people are gonna look around at that and they're gonna determine. Okay, I reflect more with that word So I'm gonna identify with that one. That's essentially I think broadly where this where this are like the process of Deciding what your gender identity is Although it's it's a bit more complicated than the problem the problem with that one There's no singular instance where you can identify something and then you become that identification Right like why not? Yeah, yeah, if we're talking about self identification then because like you can't just because you say that Excuse me just because you say that you are something doesn't make you that thing Like there are qualifiers and for every single instance of the word even for something as simple as things that you literally cannot change Right, like that's the qualifier for it, right? Like let's say that I've made the statement I identify as a black man, right? More specifically I identify as black, right the qualifier for that would be that I am of African descent, right? If I want to say that I identify as a Christian There are certain pieces of the doctrine that I would have to agree with understand with and know in order to Actually have that mean anything, right? I can't just say oh I identify as a as a Christian and then reject Jesus Christ That would make me not a Christian, right? And they're not But that's to you Definition yeah, like no they quite literally are not question Yeah, or like if I say that oh yeah, I'm a Packers fan right and mean and but I think that the Packers are a baseball team Right like that means that I'm not actually a Packers fan There's no sense There's no instance that you could identify as anything that where it just makes you that thing well So I think to be clear for like the religious example It's like you can say that they're wrong to say that they're a Christian if they don't align with these like particular rules But it seems it seems like what's what's really happening is that they have a different idea of what it means to be a Christian than you do Right, so it's it's not necessarily true that they're not a Christian It's just that what they're saying when they say they're a Christian is different than what you're saying when you say So that's just the thing you can replace the term But you can't replace a concept so if we have a triangle for example somebody might say well I define a triangle as a person. That's about fit five foot. Okay, so not everybody in the zoom calls a triangle Yeah, that's clearly not what we're talking about. What are you actually referring to? Well, I mean, this is where the social utility comes in and you already rejected that Where's the okay, so here's the question both of you say that there are infinite genders Where is the social utility and having infinite genders and the source that was lifted and I think it was Ryan's opening statement with the Academic OUP thing where it says the relevant it expands the relevance of biomedical research What does having infinite genders have to do with with utility? Like where's where's the utility in that for us? this social utility comes into play when you're talking about how people can fit into society if we have these these very narrow Predefined boxes that we're just shoving people into the people that cannot fit within those boxes are left to the wayside In any kind of in any kind of capacity, right? So if a person is let's say they identify Let's say they're a trans woman, right? And then we're saying only women are cis women That's the only women we're saying women is just a sex, right if that trans woman doesn't fit into the woman sex box Then that has other ramifications other implications from a social perspective of how they're going to be treated That's just this argument conflates truth with utility It can certainly be it can certainly serve utility to lie to people But it has no bearing on the truth of the proposition, right? Like we're arguing for truth here Are there more than two genders is? Transgender identity palette these are yes or no questions to if we're if it's true or not So it has nothing to do with if you're harmed or if your happiness levels are decreased by our answers It has to do with which answer is right. Yeah So I actually I actually largely agree with what you're saying there and like for me the way I interpret it What we're looking at like the reason there's a there's all this the scientific idea of there being a spectrum of genders It seems that what they're saying is that they're all like we're just Science is just about like observing the world right and like measuring what's happening in the world And what they're measuring is that people are saying I identify as a man or a woman and oftentimes this identity Does not align with their biological sex So this is this is a fact obviously whether you agree with like the vel the validity of their identity is one thing or another But they absolutely do have these identities and they absolutely do often contradict what we would expect of their biological sex So just acknowledging this phenomenon Allows us to better categorize or have more discrete categories That we can exactly we can do science with and we're measuring and categorizing people Where we're gonna continue or we're gonna want to use these different categories And I don't know genders infinity you guys validate zeno genders or neo genders or any of that What do you mean by validate I mean if gender is if we're just saying that gender is infinite and it's just a massive combination of different factors that present themselves in a certain way then yes Like you know what a zeno gender is right? So we're on the same. Yes. I know what a zeno gender I also know what I also know what I know. I know everything else. It's talk about. Oh, you don't okay Basically, like let's say somebody's gender identity is kind of orbits around some inanimate object for example That would be an example gender. Yeah, so gender or cloud gender something like that. What you guys would consider a valid gender identity Personally, yes, I do although I don't think any of our argument hinges on zeno on whether or not zeno genders are valid I think that our argument our positions are completely coherent without like even even if you do reject zeno genders I think the the rest of our positions also like continue to make sense. I just I think it's a different conversation Yeah, to bring it back to the the the truth of the matter, right? If we're look if the proposition is that are there two more than two genders We say there are more than two genders We gave you a list of things one of those things that we can talk about is brain makeup and whether or not there is some difference differences in between the chemical chemical Physical etc makeup of whatever it is that a person has right now I'm more than happy to talk about the neurobiology of this because the more and more I look into it the more and more It doesn't support the transgender hypothesis, right? There's plenty of males that have brain makeups closer to females That's correct. Correct, right? There are some of those there But they're also no, no, it's actually most of them most.  So I understand that But as we explore more of this and more information comes out Then we can also do other different kind of brain scans or whatever else have you different hormonal levels Etc. Etc. Etc. And then if we can if science does prove what our position is and we believe that it does then it also has the truth utility of the matter to where we can actually be able to 10 point to be like, yes, this is you say what you are we have the proof of it x y and z Explains it x y and z also contribute to ABC and then we can do it Like micro micro medical Assistance, but if the whole idea of it is that like it's essentially about the you know the gender norms gender roles societal Expectations the whole nine yards, right at the end of the day Like if that's what it's about then what does brain chemistry have to do with it, right? What is what is hormone level have to do with it or hormone balance have to do with it, right? Because if defining man and woman off of sex is wrong, right? Then what would then what would any any other science with like I said with hormone levels brain chemistry anything like that? What does that happen? What does that have to do with it? Why is using why is defining man and woman off of sex wrong? But defining man and woman off of other arbitrary physical things is right Yes, it wasn't I don't think those are the like the discerning factors about like what makes someone a man or a woman I do think definitely most again like most men and women are cis men and women so generally These words and the way they're used is going to have a lot of overlap with like like biological sex presentation Like we're gonna like these are words that are difficult to separate from those things Which is why often time like a lot of gender dysphoria comes from People not or either not being accepted as the way they're presenting or not being able to present Along that those like sexual lines that it's gonna be like a combination of Of all the gender factors that we've discussed the way gender dysphoria comes from I don't really lean much on the the male-female brain thing I think it's a It's yeah, I don't care much about that I think it's it's probably more likely to be used for like sexist purposes if anything and I don't think That's that's actually so true like up until like the 80s and 90s The idea of a sexually dimorphic brain was considered neuro sexism like early feminist against it to that Oh, man more because they have bigger brains and now it's making a way of come back with the Trans trans women are women because of this brain is better because it's right. I think it's actually making more of a comeback Due to just really understanding science better and the differences there. There's massive overlap between the two so to say I think We've been able to track the function of the amygdala and the size of the hippocampus for how long like we've been doing this But we're talking things like brain we're talking chemistry gray matter size. We're talking all the myriad of different things Ryan oh, I was just saying just if you guys could just let CSP wrap up this point just to mitigate the interruptions Just because where we are streaming it can be a little bit Clippy when multiple people are talking at once so gotcha, but you guys are being great So I'm gonna try to keep out of it. I Wrapped up my point. I'm sorry My point is is that while Ryan and I largely agree on these things there are gonna be some things we don't just we disagree on one of these things is probably the Biological impetus of what creates a person or causes a difference in gender identity These are things that we're going to end up discovering over time and having to be able to pinpoint that would also play play into what? Sandy and Tony are saying about why if this can be a truth So yeah, well just to piggyback off that I would agree that we're gonna we're probably gonna see more Detectable things that can help us make better predictions about whether or not someone will continue to identify as one gender or another But it doesn't mean that these are like the determinants like that We're using that like certain brain chemistry to decide whether or not someone's a man or a woman I think again for me that that's primarily a gender identity issue Let's kick it over to Anthony before you guys get too much on the pile there I think he was talking to you. Oh me. Oh, Tony Was it I I forgot my I forgot I was so sorry. I was so shrunken. I forgot my point well Maybe I can if I can maybe pull it back a little bit Once I like what it seems like the definition of gender that you're all using seems to be Like stems from biological sex. Can you elaborate more on like what like what's the yeah? Like what are we getting out there? So Where does it do you know about the etymology? Do you know about the etymology of the word gender? Educate me so in I'm gonna try to keep this PG in terms of the word like the word sex, right? How we're using it now We're talking about male and female right the other definition of this word. We're all adults We all know what it means, right? This word wasn't always used in that instance, right? Back in older times when people spoke spoke a little bit Just like differently, right? We have other words. We have copy late. We have for decay. We have Procreate right the list goes on and on right near the end Nearing the end of the 19th century beginning of the 20th century those words pretty much all fell out of the vernacular and we started to use sex in the end in Replacement of those words right so that so in order to not confuse these things now in order to not confuse these words What we would do is okay. Well sex still means male and female But let's use a different word so we don't get any confusion, right? And in turn we use the word gender gender up until very recently was quite literally and still is it according to Oxford Defined as one of the two sexes, okay? And so it was literally just done as as a linguistic thing just so we could you know always know what we're talking about And you mentioned a scientific journal or whatnot if you go and if you could look in anything science related Pretty much pre-2015 all of them were using sex and gender completely 100 percent interchangeably, right? And only after a certain point it's different for different organizations websites yada yada Only then will they start to differentiate like oh, yeah No animals don't animals don't have gender, right? Or it's like all the only humans have gender the whole nine yards right and sex means male and female Right the reason why it actually changed to more of a social aspect and less of you know Just literally male or female sex is because of certain individuals during the mid 20th century And it actually didn't even pick up popularity until very recently the better part of the 21st century So the reason the reason the purpose for it was was just so when we use the word Sex it would be just in turn in replacement of fornication. We use gender. It's just for one of the two sexes right and then Then you have words like man and woman which is also a gender But it's also a sex as well, right? And this is and this is replicated in pretty much every intelligent species that we could think of for example. What's a rooster? What's a bull? Right, that's just right The list goes on and on right like it's it's it's replicated in multiple other species So a bull is to a cattle as a man is to a human. It's the same. It's this exact same thing The logic is right there um So, I okay, so there's a lot there, but if we so I think I understand the the justification for like Distinguishing this distinguishing between sex and gender historically then from what you're saying like although I don't think anymore We really have too much issue with people misunderstanding like the way we're using the word sex when we're talking about like biological sex rather than Like fucking I think people people understand generally like based on context clues Which one's being referred to on and when it comes to like scientific inquiry, I think we can again pretty concretely Like use one or the other or yeah using biological sex. I think it's just fine there But I think we're distinguishing between People's identity the roles and things that we are examining and categorizing society We want we want to be able to identify these roles and identities. We want to be able to capture this information Otherwise, it's just it's just data being lost to ether I think even when it comes to like certain animals like bull and things I think often time I mean what most of the time we'd probably see these animals perform what we'd call like cis roles for them Like most bulls are probably gonna perform Traditionally masculine bull roles, but we do also see like I know certain some lions some lionesses rather might take on roles of I think you did better than boss even though I agree with him by the way But no, but no that's the thing about it Right like that like you keep bringing it back to like oh, how do we talk about the the the social aspect of we have terms for this Like gender norms quite literally used to be called sex norms, right? And then we obviously for the reasons that essentially the reason that I just explained Like but now we just call them gender norms, right? Like we have but it's we have different It's describing a different thing right so sex norms We could probably still use to describe like tendencies that are associated specifically with biological sexes But then we could differentiate that between gender norms where we're then including like the social expectations around and as well as like the different Traits demonstrated by people who identify with a different gender like so we're still describing like a more accurate We're having like a more accurate view of the world before this gets in my opinion a bit more off track I don't understand. Oh, just you can clarify it for me.  There's more than two genders or not because because of the fact that the word like we're using the word differently And when I understand before someone says it because they all they I've heard it a million times Yes, language does evolve and language does change over time But the key word there is change or I'm sorry the key word there is evolve of evolution is small changes over a long period of time Right, that's why I said like late 20th century or late 19th early 20th Like it was over a very long period of time where Other words for sex fell out of the vernacular and gender came in right it wasn't just basically Oh, yeah, these words mean this now and this is how we're and everyone's just gonna say that it is right Like it's almost like it's done by force at this point. No, I don't I don't agree with the by force thing It's just that what to to I'm gonna put in the pin on this really quick I don't think that this is necessarily entirely relevant to whether or not there are more than two genders The internet just hypersped everything up once the internet came into existence They've speed of communication the velocity of communication Exponentially increased as we got more and more people online and then have that as that happened more people being exposed to more ideas Gave more ideas weight based on the people accepting those ideas are not accepting Oh, I see ideas and therefore that came into existence for all these things and we're just on hyperdrive We're not used to it as a species, but that's exactly what's happened. It's not a forced kind of thing I really want to ask one thing to you guys believe that humans can have a gender identity that is that is of other animals This is the zener gender thing. I think what I think Yeah, like other kin stuff So I think what people are saying when they when they use these identities at least from my limited understanding of it it seems that what they're expressing is that they they They identify strongly with like the energy or vibe that this animal is associated with And in a sense like the kind of archetype of a lion perhaps someone identifies as like lion gender They identify with like certain traits that are generally associated with lions And I think similarly when someone identifies with a certain gender whether they're trans or cis They're kind of identifying with some portion of traits that they put that they find Largely associated. Yeah vibe. I honestly I think it's a great word for this like but I think the vibes the energy stuff It's a little sounds a little wishy-washy, but I think it captures what's being what's happening here Very well that people are identifying with the So somebody identifying us with a woman's vibe is the same as they are identifying as a bull sharks, but is it the same? I think they're the same logic similar similar. Yeah, I Yeah, this comes in question though, like do you guys believe that humans can I have a gender identity that of other organisms? And I feel like you can I don't see why not I would I would personally question the Social utility of this, but we're not just talking about social utility Yeah, so I already know identity that's what I'm saying I don't necessarily Understand what the social utility isn't this because when you tell me you're I don't know Table gender or something. I don't know what that means, right? There isn't a social definition for that Or women I don't know what that means. Yeah, Cypher Identify as a table. You don't know what that means Cypher. What is a woman? I know what a woman is based on the social constructs that we have Throughout all of society and then generally speaking sex. I don't see how that's incongruous That's not a definition.  You could probably create like an archetype based on that I think generally that's when someone imagines a woman or a man They're they're not necessarily imagining the weight. Do you see they're not necessarily imagining the like Reproductive capacities that you guys kind of outlined in the beginning. They're more so they're probably those might be parts of it But they're generally imagining like a visual of someone with like long hair wearing certain kinds of clothes These are many things that are contextual given like time and space You're trying to create a hypothetical where people live in a vacuum And that makes defining all language No, you did if the way if somebody doesn't know literally doesn't know what a woman is and has no concept of that whatsoever Then they've lived in a vacuum, right? They don't they haven't existed in society They don't have any interactions and defining any kind of language in a vacuum is going to be very difficult They come across the word they don't know what it means Then if we would point to different roles in society would point to sex would say generally on for me And Ryan I'll just say for myself because I don't want to speak for Ryan I would say generally speaking when we define a woman We are defining a person a person of the human species that is a female However, there are other people that identify as a woman that do not represent the the sex of the species of female and they are X Y and Z because of ABC. I don't need it. So if they identify as a woman that makes him a woman, correct And then the kid is going to ask you we identify as a what? And then we would sit we would talk about the social Yeah, so let me back up right quick cuz I Ryan when you said like when I asked the question You said more or less like oh like do you know women in your life? You could probably use them to like paint your archetype or whatever and that would help you define a woman Do you see any problem like any any problem with that? I'm not inherently. I mean, I think that how would you wait Ryan quick thing? Somebody said to find what a black person is and they said, oh, yeah You probably know a couple of black people just make an archetype off of that How do you think that would be appropriate to say well I think when we're introducing a concept to a child specifically we probably like generally I think we point to examples of that thing in society before we start to have a deeper conversation about what it means like Fundamentally to be that thing. I don't think there is like a biological category of whether someone's black or not I think this is a I'm a big critical race theory stand. So I think that I Very I think these are social and legal categories similar to gender in a lot of ways but Generally again when we're introducing a concept we would say okay Well, what if the kid asked what is a cat then I might point to a few examples of cats Including a lion including Including a house cat and and then like when we get to like more It's gonna take more like deeper conversations and deeper understandings to reach like a fundamental truth of the matter About what a cat is like what is the truth of what a cat is? I think it's a it's a it's a complex question that you can't You can't reach very very quickly feline Okay, wait, hold on I think with anything there are Certain necessary conditions right like a cat is a biotic organism at the very least we can agree there And maybe you have to simplify it You don't have to explain taxonomy to somebody that genuinely doesn't understand it you might simplify it But that still doesn't mean there a cat is just an animal that is a cat we would never define it Circularly, so why is it the case that we would define women circularly? I don't see that we're defining it circularly. We're talking about a person Who identifies as a woman those that is a person a person that identifies as a woman is generally going to have some sort of external Look to them or something like that that tries to follow generally speaking some sort of social There's certainly counter examples to that. Yeah, plenty of days. We have full-grown I said generally speaking. Well, so we're talking for talking about We're this we're talking about a social utility thing I think the word generally there is kind of allowing for those those exceptions But I would say the way that I usually because I hear obviously all the time like oh, this is a circular definition I think that the the definition it's it's being the words being used in two ways So there is the some what someone's identifying as like the label that they're using for themselves And then there's a label that they hear and see used for a lot of different people in society and this encompasses things like What is expected of a woman in a certain time and place? What is uh, what physical traits people might associate with women? What kind of clothing? What kind of character like what kind of often hair? But none of these things are are defining inherently of what the gender is These are just things that are all associated with that gender and then the person is going to come to this conclusion So it's two different usages, right? It's not so if I told you to imagine Gold for example, you would imagine something that looks shiny some type of golden color rock looking thing But truly gold is defined As by its number of protons like in the periodic table of elements, right? So just because we might make inferences about something by the way it looks has no bearing on the truth of the matter Like if I were to tell you to imagine water We would imagine, you know a droplet of h2o, but we wouldn't imagine like the chemical compound h2o But we know h2o makes water water So the way something looks has no bearing and the way we imagine things and make inferences about things has no bearing on the Truth of what it actually is Sure, and but that then comes to the thing that I said earlier in this conversation where we are getting more and more Experience and exposure and knowledge about biological differences that might account for why people identify with a certain gender over another one I find this to be okay. Hold on claims require evidence, right? Like sure. I can maybe at some point I've pointed to them and you rejected there will be Evidence for that claim to support the idea that there is a neuro biological basis for gender identity that we can point to But until we have that I don't think you can use that argument I've pointed to a couple of examples. I we can talk about that offline. I don't want to mount my last time Please run. Well real quick to that though. I mean for me I don't I don't I certainly don't require a brain scan to decide whether Identifies a certain way. I think you can like this is just kind of a question of asking them or them telling you, right? Whether they whether they're whether or not someone identifies as something is going to be largely a matter of self reporting You can't I mean I there there it might be evidence supporting Supporting that they are doing so like in bad faith like if Steven Crowder going to a gym in a dress Like there are reasons to believe that this is an inauthentic gender expression I had no idea that's very embarrassing. Yeah, he often is. He's the he's the change of my mind guy So there are obviously reasons to believe what some people might be being inauthentic about their gender identity But generally if we're trying to figure out how someone identifies that this is a matter of self report Like there's no like we can't like prove that their brain is is doing certain Neural firings that can make them come to the authentic sincere conclusion that they identify with a certain But wait, what does it mean to be like a woman? Wait, wait, hold on. So the problem with self self identification is for Let's take Crowder for example. Yeah, it's pretty obvious to tell if Crowder is being disingenuous, right? Like he's got a history. We know who he is. We know what his thoughts are like he's he's a content creator, right? But what about the instances where that's not the case because you know 99.9 percent of people are not content creators, right? How would you be able to differentiate the difference between someone legitimately self identifying and legitimately believing it And just being disingenuous, right? And then the problem with that is it's like now The the issues that come with people being disingenuous the outcomes of it are are dangerous Well, I think socially for the most part and there are a lot of exceptions to this Um, I think just generally when you're interacting with people on your day-to-day life Um, the consequences are are not really that dire about whether or not you accept someone's identity like in a conversation with them I don't see why you would have to assess their authenticity to decide like what pronouns you're going to use for them Like if they just say them and then you just go, okay, and then you continue on your day interacting with them as such Um, I there I I think I would add like if someone expects to be Or if you expect people to like treat someone as their biological sex I I would be curious about like what the implications of that are I don't I don't treat all women the same I treat some women very differently than other women So the reason why I ask that is because like yeah in your average example, right? Like just let's say son be want to identify as a man. I have to talk to son be every day, right? Like yeah, that doesn't affect me much. Okay, but in the extreme examples, right? Like where it does get dangerous like it's completely you need to know, right? In in those situations where it could get dangerous Is it not also possibly dangerous for we'll say a person that we 100% know is cis That they can be also increase these things of danger Or what about what if we try to enforce these kind of norms? What about the people that do not fit neatly into that box but are still What you would consider to be a woman one of the primary examples I can think of this is with bathrooms and when these bathroom builds started to be passed in 2013 A lot of butch lesbians not fitting the typical definition of what a woman is supposed to present as Have been forcibly removed from bathrooms across the country by police officers Because they felt that those people were putting the women quote unquote in danger. I wasn't even talking about I mean like our bathroom touched on this earlier about how we wouldn't support that I know tony specifically said like you want to express yourself how you want like nobody cares Like we shouldn't have any that shouldn't have any legal, you know implications or restrictions on how you express yourself But go ahead tony on your seat Uh, for example, like yeah the bathrooms thing like that's that's a whole bag of worms itself, right?  We like we know that but more specifically the even the more fringe cases like women's prisons I think well with the women's prison situation, right? Wouldn't we want to keep people that are dangerous away from the general population? Shouldn't that be something that's already exist since women rape each other in prison all the time There's a huge problem with also prison guards raping women. These are all the kind of situations that we have to take into account When we're talking about these things and create Hold on. Hold on. I just want to make sure so your justification for what I just said is women rape women So men should be able to rape women as well That's not the justification. I believe that is comparably bad Okay, so and then and then that's what that's what I'm saying, right like Well, wait wait, that was a really extreme suggestion of like what he was getting out, right? He when he was specific, please what he was saying specifically was that there is a broader problem of sexual assault in prison And that we need to address this from a different angle than necessarily sex Sex distinction. I think that's that's what he was getting at not No, I get that I get that right like I understand what goes on in both men's prison and women's prisons, right? Everyone has an idea that right and then that is an issue that needs to be addressed I agree 1 000 percent, right? And do you know how you want to know one way that you don't address that you don't put males in female spaces? Issues about I'm sorry issues about sexual assault like those trans women are probably also more likely to be sexually assaulted In a in a in a men's prison. They're not trans women though. That's the whole point I'm saying that these are individuals who are being disingenuous, but you would have no way that they're being disingenuous Well, you can look at the rap sheet I mean, okay So if they're being disingenuous, right? And they're they're claiming to be a trans woman to get into a women's space and this is completely off topic But I it has to be addressed, right? They're claiming to be trans because they want to go into a female prison and or a woman's prison and Just have a field day, right? The way to address that is to keep them segregated from the general population After they've gone through whatever it is that the prison system that we have created to address this situation And if they get through the whole process And then they have to because you know, they have to be separated from the general population because they're victims We're other women so but if trans women are women, why are we treating them differently? Because of the actions that they took and not for their identity They're being treated differently because they are a threat to women because they have raped women or after No, hold on what if they were in prison for a murder charge against another man has nothing to do with women Then they are a danger to other people for simply having to be murdered and they need to be separated from the general population Which is what they do currently in these prisons Over to you zombie Yeah, I think Prisons should be segregated by sex due to the simple fact of the potential for pregnancy But that is just my take on that That's why I don't think trans women especially should be allowed in female prisons bathrooms. You pass. I don't really care Prisons just like the incidence of sexual assault already Even with like male prison guards as you mentioned and then the incidence of pregnancy if there's a way to prevent that by sex segregation We should do that but Kind of getting back to the topic because I do feel like the applied ethics of this is off topic for is there Or not so if anybody wanted to reel it back in Yeah, just just to make it uh, no actually i'm good. Sorry Um Yeah, so I guess I I still uh, I still haven't Again, like bringing it back. I I still I still don't see any reason to That like the word gender Shouldn't include things like gender roles gender expression Um Gender expectations it seems like this like gender is generally encompassing. This is a concept an umbrella concept That includes all of these different like subdivisions of gender Um, I I guess I don't understand why we would want to remove all of those things from the word gender Okay, counter question. Why do we need a gender of a person that was or I'll say two people What is the gender of a couple people that were born in an island? Um away from any society? Like you would still call them men or women would say hey this man was stranded or this woman was stranded Even though they had no social cues whatsoever. So clearly we gender differently Well, we could use a probability there like I mean oftentimes we do assume people's genders I don't think that's always like a bad thing to do. I don't think it's always like insulting Um, I think generally like we can like if these people don't have a concept for it I don't think they're going to be like particularly offended. Uh, they're very unlikely to be people to be people who are experiencing gender dysphoria as well Um, I don't I don't really see that there's a big problem that comes from just assuming that like that again Most people are cis like the majority of men are cis men the majority of women are cis women So you can you could probably just assume that and so you are okay with assuming people's genders sometimes, uh broadly Yeah, sure I think but the problem the problem that comes from that is when if someone if you assume some someone's gender And then they correct you and then you double down I think that's where problems and like confidence up Especially if you're like an employer or like uh, like someone opposite like a landlord or something And and this is my opinion would be the opinion of the majority of people broadly speaking liberal left. So You know I want to make sure we're clear. What opinion would be the opinion of most people?  I know you both concede it But a lot of people even on the left that are trans inclusive do not believe xeno genders or neopronounce are valid And okay, I that's fine I disagree with them, but it's okay Well, this might be a good time for us to head on over to our q&a It's up to you guys if you had any other thoughts you wanted to flesh out We can go for another like 10 to 15. That's fine by me. So If not, we can move into the q&a. How are you guys feeling? Uh I'm good to move but one quick thing. So ryan in your Definition of gender the reason why it was defined that it way that the way that it was is to like essentially like be encompassing like for other cultures Uh, I are something like that. Well, no, not necessarily. Although. I think it does have that effect The distinction that I would make I mean it's literally just observing that that people identify as a different gender Like whether or not we accept that is a different question. I obviously our side does Um, but like the the thing that's being categorized there is is gender identity, right? So we're just separating that That the fact that there are these people who have these differing gender identities that don't align with their biological sex Um, and and it's just it's just categorizing categorizing things based on that that fact If I may ask though, what does it mean like to say we have a male? What does it mean for them to feel like a woman? I think that's gonna vary.  They're both women. We get into contradictions Well, what we get into it's it's not inherently a contradiction It just means that what it means to be a woman for each of them is different, right? So what is the meaning of a woman? What is a woman? Well, again, this they're they're looking around and abroad the way it's used culturally It's going to be different in time or time and space Um, and this is why this is why I brought up culture like different cultures They're going to have different ideas of what a woman is supposed to do what a woman's supposed to present as We're going to see this variation Um, and people are going to reflect on that and then decide what their gender identity is based on what they see around them And that's uh, if they see less of specific things or more specific things There they might be more or less likely to align with that But uh, I don't think that matters at the end of the day Like what that doesn't answer the question as to what it means to be a woman That question has been asked through all of time and space That has been a a question that can you can trace all the way back into what is the essence of man all the way back to Ancient greeks I think what is the essence of woman ancient greets the stoics had different answers for that We don't have a firm answer for it because the essence of woman is being an adult human human We can name the essential trait, but you guys can't Well, well, yeah, you're because we do not Yeah, we do not agree with your definition But obviously like a lot of people who a lot of people who consider themselves women who uh, you might even it sounds like consider women In some context, um, a lot of these people wouldn't meet that definition And I also just I just think when most I would not consider any males to be women Sure, I think when most people imagine the word women or women, they're they're not imagining the the reproductive role you're describing Like I said, yeah, and when people imagine water, they're not imagining the hydrogen compounds That doesn't mean water is an h2o If I if I if I if I show you about it, if I tell you about a steak, what do you imagine? What kind of specific? Yes, but what kind of steak there are multiple different kinds medium or a tree bone You're right It doesn't it doesn't matter what you think of the fact like the fact that it's still a steak is the point like what I think of when I think of what I think of when I think of a woman doesn't matter Right, it doesn't matter if I'm thinking of megan fox or general or tega The fact of the matter is I'm still thinking of of an individual who is an adult human Yeah, but this this comes back to the social utility argument and then and then it goes into the the Designated I don't say I'm gonna have to correct me or say it again because I don't remember but the Certain expression on the in the chromosomes like that's not how most people are going to operate if there's a person if there is a person that presents Generally speaking as what we consider to be a woman and they have an x y chromosome Then that person is going to be a woman, right? So directly there's a woman. No, I don't believe chromosomes determine sex And I know I'm saying that I know you don't it's the certain expression thing that we're not going to go other people believe that Okay, I'm not Okay, good I mean as a thought experiment can everybody in this panel except you right Imagine gold like just imagine Gold in your mind whatever comes to mind so be it now I guarantee you guys you did not imagine 79 protons But yet the definition of gold is still an element with the atomic number 79, right? So it doesn't matter what you imagine that is the definition So it doesn't matter if when we imagine a woman, we don't imagine her genes It still is what defines a woman But that is your definition of it and clearly ryan. I disagree with your definition But the definition of woman in in in oxford again regarded as the best dictionary for the english language is literally an adult human female It doesn't matter because we disagree with that definition For my definition, I was more so pointing out how what you imagine is irrelevant to how we define things and the truth of things, right? So, yeah, so I agree. I was trying to point out I agree and I think I I think largely when we talk whether whether it's water or gold or Even most animals that we might describe in this way I think that what the thing that we're lacking here when we're trying to draw parallels between this and gender Is it we're largely talking like what when we're talking about like what the defining thing is that makes someone a woman or man We're talking about gender identity and there's no identity factor involved in gold There's no gender identity There's no identity factor involved in in water most animals don't have identity of being a particular type of that animal So I think that we can't we can't draw the exact these analogs quite clearly because there is no identity factor Which is like the whole crux of what we're but we can't even and you've already rejected my argument about You've already rejected my argument about different things that we are discovering now that point to Biological factors that would be the essence of truth that create these different No, that doesn't make sense because you already reject certain biological aspects. So why do you accept other ones? I didn't reject any biological aspect So then why is the definition of what's wrong with the definition of man slash woman being an adult male or adult It doesn't encompass everything it literally does 100% of human beings who have ever existed are a male or a female that is not up for discussion It doesn't literally the case It's fine Yeah, I would like that is literally how that goes There is not a human being that has ever existed out of the 100 billion of us Where neither male nor female or some or are like or I mean for this case man woman boy girl Sure, I would say most most inner I I'll agree that like most intersex people identify as like a man or woman also Right, right, like I don't think there's many like non-binary intersex people. I'm sure they exist But generally these are and most of the time again, they're going to be like cis like they're going to align with like the gender Or they're like biological sex is going to align with their gender But but obviously this isn't true for everyone Right and and again like I'm very skeptical of the the idea that like most people are Well, I guess you're saying the issue isn't isn't about what most people think I think this is where definitions come from is what most people think Most people might think like a good definition a good working definition for a man or woman is adult human female And I'll say it most Most men are adult human males most women are adult human females So I think the definition is fair for most people But uh when we're when we're talking about like everyone it seems like we we need a slight shift in how we approach this language But don't you think it's absurd to assert that your gender changes based on where in the world you are Like here in america, you might be a woman you get on a plane you travel sphere You step foot on a different piece of land and now you're not a woman Maybe you're non-binary or something else like well, that's where they the personal identification and their interplay between It's an interpersonal psychological It's an interplay right if if somebody lives in a vacuum, they're not going to have a gender But it's we don't live in a vacuum. So there's going to be clearly some sort of inculcation People that have been isolated from society of genders I think they might they might have they might have they might do things that um Are I mean or they can come up with their own concept of gender and that's going to be completely different than ours So gender in in y'all's definition is essentially used for utility I think all all words in general, especially when we're doing scientific definitions, you know what I'm probably talking about You know, yeah, sure. Okay. I don't know if I do so that's not if it so if but if most male if most males and females identify as men and women Respectively, then who is it? Who is it utilized for? Who's the utility if it works for 90 if like 0.6 percent of american individuals identify as trans if it works for 99.4 percent of a population of 300 million then why would we change the definition? That means there's millions and millions of people who it doesn't work for And are we supposed to so just because they don't fit into this box that we want to put people in now I mean, but they do but they do fit in the box. They just don't want to accept the box Well, it seems it doesn't mean that doesn't mean that doesn't mean that the box that they live in is wrong Well, it seems like it seems like we're just using we're talking about different boxes. Like they their identity is one box This this is the distinction we're making like we're just acknowledging that there are people who identify Uh as something other than what their biological sex might suggest Um, and and so there are people who don't most people don't but we're just We're just trying to acknowledge We're just trying to encompass this when we're when we're tracking these things If we don't make it if we don't make this distinction then when we're checking when like if someone's marking their gender on like some uh, Some medical survey, um, and we don't know that they're whether they're trans or not We can't we can't make a distinction here if we don't differentiate between their gender and their sex We want to have more accurate, you know, these people you keep saying encompass But encompass what male and female are 100 percent encompassing There is no exception to this in the in the homo sapiens. What is not encompassing about masculine woman to describe a No, they would be included. Yeah, they'd be included on oh wait, oh wait, I'm sorry So while their their identity wouldn't be reflected there So a trans man might not check man or I'm sorry might not check woman on a on a gender box But they might they might check female on a on a sex box Why is the descriptor, um masculine woman incorrect for them though? Why is it incorrect? Well, it's incorrect in terms of their identity like they don't identify as a woman So that that part would be the thing that's incorrect So in terms so it's just, you know, gender you can basically identify, you know, they're being genders You can essentially identify as whatever you want. Where where do we draw the line there? That's like that's that's always my I don't see a reason to necessarily draw a line. So I'm a 24 year old with that So I'm 24. I'm an adult, right? Yeah, do I need to identify as an adult to be an adult? Well, we're talking about again So this is this is where it's gonna come back to like we're talking about something like things that are measured Like the number of rotations around the sun that have happened since you were born And in your the way you guys are using Gender, perhaps there's something measurable Underlined but like the thing that we're measuring when we talk about gender is someone is someone's identity The way they they tell us if I ask someone what's their gender they're gonna tell me If they're trans they're gonna say i'm a man or a woman and that that's gonna be their gender as well But if they're but if they're infinite but if they are infinite genders and there's essentially nothing Like like because you know Children and adults they they fulfill different roles in society, right? So what would be the problem with an individual identifying as as a child? What would be the problem with that? Yes, I mean it I mean it depends it depends on what kind of what what they want that to What what they want that to include I guess There can be problems in society that are not necessarily problems as far as concepts concerned I don't want to get into it But there are people that do identify as children that do not at all interact with children in that way But they do as adults and those people exist and whether or not that they whether or not we want to accept them or not That's a whole different discussion, but that's whatever we have Get myself off the mute there. I think with that we're going to move into our q&a Where Tony said he's asked his end all be all question and I'm sure it won't be because the q&a is going to launch lots more chatter I'm sure so keep those questions coming in and we're going to keep it lively Um now where we're about to go into the q&a Um, do any of you need to grab a drink or take a bathroom break? This is a great time if you need to do that. If not, then let's carry on Uh, I might actually grab some water We're all doing thanks ryan because I need to pee Someone commented a lot someone commented on the live stream I said my vodka identifies as water I Wish that could work. I mean Every once in a while, but uh, yeah No, we're uh, we're having a very, uh, amicable discussion overall everybody Uh, hey, look, it's just me and you tony hanging out here now. So everybody else. Oh wow everyone else left. That's crazy Oh, yeah, you're the only that's that's the sign of a professional streamer everybody as you know right there I choke on my own water as you can see. Yeah, I lost my mind my god. That was hilarious.  So, you know, we do appreciate that So, uh, before we go into the q&a everybody, let's just give a little bit of love for our speakers who came out tonight And we're going to wait for csp to get back And head right into that q&a. Well, I guess I could read the first one because sanvi is here. You can hear us, right? Sami Okay, you're back. Yeah, we fortunately we can hear her as well Okay, and uh, fortunately we have a positive, uh Super chat here. Well, it's not really a chat. It's a it's a fan and we love that So, uh, be smiley three for two dollars queen sanvi for the win Don't pull any punches. So you got a fan sanvi. How do you like that? Wow, who would have guessed sanvi as fans? That's crazy Well, keep those Honestly, I barely like sanvi. I'm about I'm about one one good day away from blocking her. So My goodness. Well, yeah I admire my debate skills, tony and my intellect. Okay, listen respectfully We both know that it's not most people don't don't play with them. We both know. Oh, right. All right, let's Let's have that debate some other time you two and let's continue on with our q&a Thunderstorm 999 the idea of an ideology dictating gender to different cultures is racist and a supremacist Uh, what will happen to these cultures if they disagree with your marxist ideology of a trillion gender supremacy Anybody can reject anything that they want. We can't force people to believe anything We can assert that they're wrong From our perspective, but that doesn't actually change anything. So Yeah, I and I'll add to that. I think um, a lot of times, uh, there's this idea of like, uh, cultural imperialism Which I think is a real thing, but I think it's often like bastardized to refer to um, People describing progressive values and how they might apply in a in a culture that is generally not so progressive And I think oftentimes like what we're acknowledging is like like there are going to be trans people in countries that reject the existence of trans people there are going to be Even tomboy's and uh, them feminine men in in these societies as well who are completely rejected by the the gender roles that are uh, that are Kind of rigidly applied in these societies and I think um suggesting that these people deserve the right To express themselves how they how they would like to is not a is not imperialist There are certainly imperialist ways of going on going about that But asserting that they have the right to do so is is not racist or imperialist at all All right, any other thoughts there from uh, any other panelists? Okay, wait wait, uh Can you say that question one more time? That was a lot. I'm not gonna hold you that was a lot That's all right. It was quite a bit and uh, yeah I imagine there'll be all kinds of thoughts the idea of an ideology dictating gender to different cultures is racist and a And supremacist what will happen to these cultures if they disagree with your Marxist ideology of a trillion gender supremacy What's crazy is that's actually uh, I actually never get into that one And I'm still not really going to because whenever you talk about things like that whenever you you go like slightly past Like skins uh surface level then people just starting to call you like a conspiracy theorist But I I don't I think you could call it racist But honestly we've used that word so poorly in the last 10 years that like it holds significantly less meaning But what I refer to it as is I refer to it as cultural imperialism We take our modern view we take our modern ideas and our modern view set on how we look at the world And we apply that not only to other cultures in the present But we take that and apply it to other cultures in the past such as two spirited gender by the way that in In no in no way shape or form just two spirit Two spirit, uh, as well as many other examples that have been brought up. I don't know. I don't know if cypher brought them up I'm just saying up to my head that are brought out in no way shape or form Did those fit any regard in modern transgender ideology? But we just but essentially they're just taking they're put in there's like hey Look, there's been examples of this in history, but that's not true at all All right, if I can maybe just a last note on that I extend kind of an olive branch I think I I largely agree about the frustration of using things like like two spirit and stuff Although I think these do demonstrate like different categorizations of gender that exist obviously Like there are a ton of different Tribes and they have very different cultures and very different ideas of what these things meant And it can often serve to Be a little simplistic in terms of native american people when we try to say that oh natives had these concepts and yeah All right. Well, let's carry on in live chat Uh, yeah, keep your super chats coming in keep them friendly. We're gonna carry on Pointless poppy 499 sanvi show me that someone is true in identifying Favor for a specific color in their own mind Yeah, that's such a stupid thing like people can lie nobody's saying that people can lie Nobody's saying that we have a way to discern if people are lying to you or not That has no bearing on if something is true or not, right? Like there are I can tell you right now Yesterday, I drove my lamborghini and you would have no way of verifying that Does that have any bearing on the truth that if sanvi drives lamborghini's no And it's sad that I have to like these people have opinions and vote people I don't understand the difference between metaphysics and epistemology do better Okay, to be fair most people don't know what epistemology is like Come on. Let's not let's not be elitist. Most people don't know what that word is if it has more than three syllables They don't know what it means Maybe we should give more access to education so more people get the opportunity to learn these distinctions But I don't we live in we live in the digital age of information quite literally Anyone has access to all the information they could ever want and if they don't it is somehow for whatever reason They don't have like access to internet themselves every almost every Counting in in the country has a library with internet access You don't you don't know what you don't know people until most I would say probably most people until 2014 maybe 2015 didn't even know what transgender people Uh There were different No, no, no, no, no Transsexual transgender. I'm just saying whatever the term maybe a lot of people didn't know I would say that most adults even prior to 2014 would know words like transsexual and tranny Right Like think about think about how big of a name eddie murphy was right not as much anymore But think about how big of a name eddie murphy was early 2000s late 90s, right? Everybody knew about eddie murphy in the in the car with the with the tranny To bring to bring back to my point though. You don't know what you don't know So if you don't know something exist, you're not even going to know to look it up. That's all I mean That's all I'm trying to say And I'll say the idea that people have or that people had And still often have of these words Historically including the slur you mentioned there is probably going to be very much informed by the awful media representation That these people were represented with Historically, which is I mean if you look to like what's that ace venture a bit or like the the punch line was that the the person The the person he kisses was it was trans And there was like all these sorts of yeah, that's often a punch line and a lot of media until recently All right. Well, let's carry on from there. We got some more super chats coming in Thanks everybody for your super chats And I just want to remind everybody to hit the like button that does help us out in the algorithm And we're enjoying our discussion tonight. Everybody's being super polite and we appreciate that Uh pointless poppy again $1.99. Thank you Uh t what is a two-spirit in native american culture? T that's to you maybe Yes, p is that for him since no, no, I'm t I'm t Oh, um Two-spirit is basically just uh from what I understand. I don't know if it's males and females But from what I believe what I think I get is basically males who fulfill female roles LDR More or less they do depend on the culture and it is an alchemist term created in 1990 or so There wasn't an actual term for it prior to them from what I was able to research on this topic Yeah, that's that's what I was seeing as well. So basically uh, Kind of full circle back to the cultural imperialism. We take things that don't know this was created No, this was created by native people themselves in a conference So I wouldn't say that it's cultural imperialism whatsoever, but even even like, uh, even calling it like, uh Like saying it's basically like a native thing like the native two-spirit Like the natives were a very large expansive and diverse group of people like multiple groups of natives So it's like it's instead of saying like native like saying native basically It's one of those things where it's like it The way that I see it is it's uh, like I mentioned earlier like conflating different terms to try to make the point stronger. It's essentially, um Saying things in a way that would that makes the point better, right? So instead of saying specifically what native groups this was right and in order to just boil it down to Hey, this is just what I'm just I don't know where exactly right But hey, this is where this is uh, the beliefs that this one or two specific groups in the deserts of arizona held That were native americans, right instead of saying that they just say natives Which expands over two entire continents with a population of over 120 million people, right? So it's like it's like oh, yeah, the natives believe this and it's like, okay Yeah, the natives but how many is that like it could have been 4 000 people who believe this right like whoop-de-doo Yeah, it was it was a neo it was a neo Lugism I can't pronounce that whatever it was neologism I think is what it is what it is and it was created specifically as a pan and native american term In order to encompass these various ideas that were different between different cultures because they all shared similar aspects More or less, so yeah to the I was just gonna read this. I just pulled up wikipedia article I think it has a good like introduction. It was like two-spirit. Um Two-spirit or two s are occasionally two-spirited is a modern pan indian umbrella term used by some indigenous north americans to describe Native people in their communities who fulfill a traditional third gender or gender variant ceremonial and social role in their cultures I think that's uh, but yeah But go ahead somebody I kind of meant to ask this one earlier But do y'all believe that somebody could be a man and woman at the same time identifies both I do like I mean some there are some agender people that do do that so But agender means neither lack of agender. Yeah, are my understanding Sure, I should say Yeah, I was gonna say for me. I think I think there's room in my understanding of these things for like a dual gender identity I don't know how common this would be but uh, I think it's it's uh, it's possible. Sure. Okay. Yeah, just was curious Um, also the it's like, yeah, I was made at the conference But the term was first made in english and then translated to a native american language Right. Yeah, what? Well, you have to I mean, it wasn't the 90s, right? So most people would have come up with a with a new term or going to try to have a shared language And then translated into I don't know whatever the majority of people there were so Most native american people in the 90s probably are also learning english. So yeah And I don't see as this is I don't see this as a is a problem simply because there are these terms Which I brought up three of two of them and then another one from angola that encompass these kind of concepts Um, that aren't necessarily going to fit into the binary of gender that we were arguing with All right, well, let's move on with our super chats and keep them coming in everybody and we'll keep the conversation rolling Uh pointless poppy 499 once again not referring to somebody's name just a letter which Is s so to you sanvi the point of mentioning the historical use of non-binary terms Is to show this that this gen that this show gender is not a description of biology I might have to break this down just a little bit The point of mentioning the historical use of non-binary terms is that this shows gender is not a description of biology Just one s away from Working out there Yeah, I don't think that necessarily follows that because previously gender was a description of something else that that is now true Like for example, like people back then didn't even believe in a heliocentric solar system And I'm supposed to take her word for gender like I'm sure you don't believe that when it rains outside It's god putting his wrath upon us But these people did believe that so I think that the more information we have And the more that we can think about this logically the less and less evidence points to the fact that there is More than two genders and as such thing as a gender identity Well, even even if you want to accept that as a as a as a definition We can also acknowledge that there is wisdom of the ancients just because they didn't understand a concept fully Does not mean that they could not intuit it or figure it out through just straight exposure to different things Wait, hold on. Just just went really quickly. Was it you or maybe I am I did say that you cannot rely on intuition in order to get Okay, there we go. So I'm gonna reject that as well I would say I would I think the I think this is what the question was getting at. I think they're they're suggesting that like Not necessarily that we can we should look at the at these historical usages of of third gender Ideas as like this is like this shows that we should now use it this way I think what they're saying is it exemplifies that there have always been variations That that are in contention with this traditional idea of there being two genders There's there's been on people historically for forever. I mean trans people have always existed There's always been lots of people who are gender non-conforming in various ways There's always going to be people who don't fit into this traditional gender binary I think that's really what the question is trying to get at That's the way I felt it And that that was my point but to all just one one final point just because something is old and it comes from people That we no longer agree with doesn't mean that it also is not true We're seeing things evidence with traditional chinese medicine. They're proving to be there's healing properties and certain kind of Elements and plants and things like that that we're also seeing now that we have the technology to actually examine it that hey There was actually something to this Yeah, so I mean, yeah, of course 100% either way it could be true It could not be true what people believe historically that's up to us to debate. That's why I think citing historical Evidence and conceptions of gender doesn't really make sense to me, but that's Also to one of the answers I forgot what somebody had said But I couldn't really find a way to get this in like during the debate Uh, I completely reject the the idea. I like 100 reject the idea of gender identity Yeah, me too. The only the only instance in which I don't reject it is in the same sense that like I wouldn't reject racial identity Right, like I'm like I'm black right, but like it doesn't matter if I identify as black or not Like I just simply am right and the only the only instance is where this ever comes into play is with Certain groups like uh, dominicans you guys dominicans they they can be you know, midnight purple They're not they will not accept if you call them black That's fine. I don't there's no really need reason to most of the world doesn't see race They just see nationality or ethnic group Yeah, american race is like a very particular Idea of like a very particular version of race like racialization. Um, but um, I even if you like reject gender identity I mean, I I think everyone here acknowledges There are people who have gender identities that don't align with their biological sex And I think that's uh, that's really all that's being said. I mean, yeah, no like I acknowledge that But if we reject the yeah, like if we like I acknowledge that right But like if we reject the idea of a gender identity then it doesn't really matter what they identify as I hear I well, I want to engage with something you just said about like masculine Like this doesn't contradict at all because we're talking about like their biological set like a masculine women Is still has the biological sex of female or um, yeah, the masculine cis women You're referring to still have biological sex of female and still have the gender identity of women I was referring to transgender people. I just see them as masculine females or something like feminine males All right, let's carry on from there everybody Um, and uh, yeah, I see that our discord has been tagged in the live stream So if you enjoy debates like this and you want to get ahold of me I think son v you're hanging out in there, too I I'm not sure I thought I saw you were poking around in our modern day debate discord But uh, yeah get in there and uh, check it out. We got 24 seven debates You can practice your skills and get yourself debate buff So that you maybe you can come on the come on the youtube show here and have fun like we are tonight So let's carry on with our super chats everybody Do-do-do-do-do-do-do and down. Oh, I'll get get the old copyright going. Uh Moyet Morgan five dollars son v and tony To what gender does a massless god identify under your concept? Oh my god, I saw this I saw it when I pulled it up And I just had to really take a minute And just like reflect on the fact that somebody really typed that out and said it and thought it and thought it was a gotcha And thought it was a gotcha because at the very beginning of the debate I know tony defined gender something along the lines of the human sexes or yeah one of the two sections of sex So god is not human That doesn't apply the same way gender doesn't apply to rocks because rocks are not human And honestly not because listen, I'll entertain the question right so god in the sense of The father in the holy spirit doesn't have a gender god in the sense of jesus male man easy like it's such it's such a terrible question like it like that that was that is Honestly god like nothing to anyone else like to cypher and ryan y'all been y'all been cool, right? I don't know where the other ryan lies politically But one thing that I've noticed is and a lot of the discussions that I've had in a lot of debates When it comes to I'm not even on the right like I'm not even a conservative individual, right? But everyone always just says that I am just because they you know identity politics. Uh, what's it called? Uh, when whatever tribalism tribalism, that's what I was looking for is one thing that I've noticed is that whenever I'm talking to people on the left Whenever they respond a lot of them they respond with the worst possible take like the worst possible meaning that I could that Misconceptions they don't understand what's coming out of my mouth or out of people in the right's mouth and then they argue against that It's like they have no idea what what they're talking about There's no way the person who donated that has any idea of what people like sonvi and I Legitimately believe by asking that question because we already answered the question. It wasn't like this was asked at the beginning No, this is like halfway through Sure, like those people are like creating like a A kind of caricature of a conservative and already yes, it's it's literally the the worst for the worst and lowest IQ A versions of a straw man. That's what it is I'm not saying that y'all did that obviously y'all y'all are fine But like the like people in the comments the people the individuals that I debate on tiktok It's just like I say one thing they're like, oh, so what you're saying is and my rule of thumb If they if the statement is ever said so what you're saying is they're they weren't listening 90% of the time they're not listening All right, let's continue on from there Uh, I see lots of questions coming in the live chat make them into super chats and uh, they'll all get asked Sans our members, of course Let's carry on. So golden mercer $10 going back to the gold example Or no gold gordon gordon mercer. I got to get my glasses. I think or just make youtube a bit bigger. There we go Boop boop boop Gordon mercer not golden mercer, but maybe you are this debate devolved into consist gendered people identify with the other gender I believe gender is a spectrum and not a binary This debate in no way answered the more than two genders question Was that specifically for I'll just I'll just jump in because I think I tried to do that in my opening. Um, so if you missed the opening just Rewind Um, I thought we had a decent discussion on it. Yeah, the reason why the question is impossible to answer because we At the end of the day, like we just the words are just not defined the same Yeah, yeah, I'll say that the reason that a cis gender person Couldn't necessarily identify as another gender Is because that that isn't like what it means to be cis gender is that you identify with the gender you were assigned at Birth. Um, and what it means to be transgender is that you identify as a gender other than the one you're assigned to birth So that's like all Like those these are these are like uh, like it encompasses all people like that you're either cis or trans I mean, although there are like there are some people who are Who would qualify as trans under this definition who don't identify as trans. So there's some nuances there But in general like these categories are just referring to whether or not your gender identity aligns with like the sex you were assigned to birth Also another thing I completely reject the idea of the of the term cisgender. I think it's the dumbest possible thing Okay, I agree Like it doesn't like the term itself doesn't make sense coffee. The coffee is already caffeinated unless you want to decaf Yeah, that's like you don't like we we don't do that with any term Right, like let's say you have someone who goes to school for four years They go to school for they go to med school. They do the residency for four years. They get their md. What are they? They're a doctor, right? What do you call someone who hasn't done that? You don't Yes, right? I guess if if we're I mean, I I kind of understand what you're getting at with your definitions but I don't think it makes sense under A broader understanding of like differentiating sex and gender like again Obviously, we're talking about the fact that there are people who identify as a gender other than the one they were assigned at birth And we categorize these people as transgender and there are people who don't there are people who like I believe everyone on this panel who identify with the gender they were assigned at birth and those people would be Identified as cisgender. It's it's it's really that simple Wait, not not ryan on the far right, but ryan the host Can I are we allowed to ask questions or is it only from the audience? I mean, we are in q&a But I'm I'm the type of host that I don't mind if it goes a little You have to go in like five minutes. Is that okay? Can we get the questions? Okay, sure if you have questions after you want to ask, uh, let's try to get through this Especially now that I know that I've gotten them blown up to 200 Yeah Yeah I'm gonna ask these questions now. All right. Let me get over here. That was our first super chat from gordon mercer Now that I've got them all blown up. I can see them great. So Steel stargazer five dollars. What is a lesbian? How does a lesbian differ from a trans woman? I think Let's I was gonna say zombie. Let him go first. Wait. I want to see what they had to say Yeah, um, so a lesbian is generally like sexuality labels people are Signaling like what gender I like type of people they're attracted to based on their own gender identity So most people who are lesbians Identify as women and are saying that they are interested in sexual and romantic relationships with women Um, but there's obviously a lot of variation in that there are like he him lesbians who are historically A bit of a of a wrench in that perhaps, but I think there's there's plenty of room for sexuality to be complicated All right. Well, let's try to keep moving through zombie. You had some thoughts there Yeah, that's it. That's that was fine. That was wrapped up. Um To quickly answer it.  Well, we'll continue on there. Uh, we have another Fan super chat young old boy says uh for two dollars canadian the zombie lady is an assassin absolute workshop So you guys saw that comment? I had no idea what that meant. I saw it and I was I don't even I don't know what I think they said that you're put I think what they mean by that is that you're putting in the work I guess, um, that's what I can do. Thank you. Thank you. So, you know, uh, we'd love the the fan super chats They're always nice to see ozzy gold your member super chat. Uh, this was from wolf and he was asking a lot in the Live chat. He really wanted to know would ryan and csp date a trans woman Yes potentially All right. No No, well, everybody's almost answered you tony That's crazy.  We'll try to base up based off of based off of what I just said That's crazy. Well, let's try to continue on for the sake of uh, son v getting some more More of her voice in here on these questions that are Directed to her soon in them ten dollars respect to son v for being respectful She knows men can't get pregnant despite mental disability Ie ryan csp tell us how men have a uterus using x amount of genders chromosomes to make your case and how Yeah, there are These people who we identify as trans men. Um, it's perfectly consistent with everything we said so far that these people exist They are biologically female. They have Like a uterus and they identify as men and these people can get pregnant So, um, that doesn't mean no like doesn't mean cis men can get pregnant. Obviously But these men can it's really that simple I agree with ryan I think the question was worded in a way that we couldn't answer that so I'll just let defer to him Alrighty, well, let's continue on there. Uh, yeah going on soon in him again $2 my gender is terminix csb. How do you respond to this? Termin X is that what they said? I don't know what that means I don't know what that means if you'll have to explain it to me and then we can talk about it It's a terminator company Oh, you mean like, you know, like like a pest control company to give her the term Oh I mean, it's it's a good it's a good question But again, I don't know what that means from a social perspective because we haven't defined those terms No, no, no terminix is it's a pest control code. It means that I don't know what that means in terms of gender Which is what we're talking about. So I thought it was like, uh, Arnold sports an anchor thing and I was no, but I know like It does tell you right like socially like pest control companies like survey a function in our society and in our culture to get rid of pest Right. So that means that you know, like they're identifying is that they give her to pest Termites. All right.  Congratulations All right. Well, I guess better than identifying as a terminator, right? That's uh, I thought we were going right for the uh, the 80s reference and uh, going straight. Arnold. Anyways, pointless poppy for 99 So, uh, s zombie, uh, you all know. Um, yeah, this is another one from pointless poppy Zombie, you know, historically gender is not always referring to biology What is your reason for no longer using gender to describe something? psychological Yeah, because I think we already have other terms to describe these psychological traits that people might have Um, gender is generally I think even other people in this panel accepted use interchangeably as the human conception of sex So to describe psychological traits States we could have somebody just being a feminine male, right? Their brain or something typically allows them to like things typically associated with females I don't think that has any indication on their gender But yeah, also, what's a rooster? I don't know A rooster is a male chicken, right? Okay. I think specifically an adult male chicken. Um, it'll be consistent with man Um, is that the chicken's gender? I don't think chickens have a concept of gender identity, uh, but i'm open to uh, I didn't say gender No, no, I didn't say gender identity. Yeah, I know but but as I said about like my understanding of like what someone somebody's gender is Uh, is going to be informed by what their gender identity is. Um, but I did want to um To something uh, zombie mentioned that like historically these terms have been used very interchangeably I agree, especially in a lot of scientific literature. Um, and in fact the the article that I linked earlier is specifically trying to address The problems that arise from this historic conflation of these two things and trying to address that by differentiating them in the future I also acknowledge that in my opening with the webster dictionary definition. So All right. Well with that, we'll uh, just check in with you, zombie Did you have to go still or you have any? No, it's okay. I'll stay a little longer. Okay. Well, we're glad to have you So robin page five dollars women and men are historically and colloquially defined as adult human biological female and male respectively Why should that change? Uh, that goes to us. I don't know who wants to go first Well, I think that is for your side. So ryan if you yeah, I mean it has to be right now. Can you read it again? I I missed part of I was reading something. No, that's okay. That's okay. I know the live chats very uh lively there too as well So, uh, we might be keeping an eye robin page five dollars asked women and men are historically and colloquially defined as adult Human biological female and male respectively. Why should that change? Oh, yeah, I I uh, I said something to this effect a few times I I'm very skeptical of the idea that these have always been and always are like Colloquially, excuse me colloquially Used to just refer to biological sex. It seems like generally people have a lot more things when they're using these words Like they're they're often referring to like roles. Um, that these people might uh engage in they're often referring to presentations that these people are likely to engage with. Um, it seems like there's a lot more Involved than just their biological sex. So I reject that question I actually can no, no, sorry. Sorry for you got it. No, go for it. Go for it. Um, so actually it wasn't only uh, using a quote-unquote biological sense like yes, there is a Uh social aspect in which case we do use both man and woman, right? So let's say, uh, you're doing something I don't know why let's say you drop your pickle on the ground I don't know right and you as a grown man start crying like balling sobbing, right? And somebody looks at you and they say man up, right? They're not telling you to be more of an adult human male That doesn't make sense, right? What they're saying in that instance is essentially be more masculine, right? Or if something Let's um, this isn't I'm just stay with me, right? Let's say a woman doesn't wash the dishes in our house, right? And she's like wow, you're not acting like a woman, right? What they're not saying Oh act more like an adult human female. They're saying act more feminine, right? So in this instance, it's like, yeah Like like we we we accept that, right? Like that's not that's not a crazy thing to say, right? Like everyone everyone has heard things like that before but the problem with it is is like That's the instance, right? It's just saying act more feminine act more masculine, right? But it's it's just an easier way of saying, you know, man up versus I don't need you to act this way I need you to act more in a way that is typically associated with the masculine things and I like that's too much It's too wordy, right? So It's conflated there in that instance But the reason why this still doesn't really support the transgender ideology in the instance that I that I just gave Is because masculinity and femininity are still associated with both men and women But the fact that you can have masculine women feminine men or you can have Masculine trans women god, this isn't a lot the fact that you can do all of these things It's it's it kind of like rejects that idea, right? It would go it would go against it Yeah, it's a tony's point I think saying man, this is a lot is exactly why we're having the language evolved Like where you're doing in order to be able to put a point on a fine point on it to Pay our people to understand exactly what we're talking about Whatever's wait when everybody and whatever any human being says man up to anyone who's not quite literally a child They like we all know what we're saying. I know what they mean, but you're saying that there's trans There's there's the existence of trans women, right? So we're going to end up having these different terms in order to understand the world in which we actually live in Yeah, no, but trans women is the term, right? But like the I'm saying it goes against the ideology not against trans women, but it goes against the ideology because Like by saying man up is just saying be more masculine Right. I don't consider it to be an ideology But that's for another debate the fact that a man could be a woman is is an ideology like that's not that is not That is not a widely accepted belief in 90 of the world south south america africa most parts of asia west West europe middle east right like like most of the world does not accept this idea Does not accept this ideology and they will violently go against it So it is an idea that's true. There's people are at risk of extreme violence. I agree, right? So because of that it is an ideology, right? Let's get CSP in here. He's trying to say something guys. It's it's it's fine. Uh, just to answer the the question though The reason that we're these terms are evolving is because we're experiencing a need for social utility in these terms To explain a human condition, which we did not have proper language to explain in the past So whether or not a culture is violently going to be against these things Doesn't necessarily matter whether or not they're true It matters of where if they are true and if we need to have a social utility for the language to explain them We need a social way. We need a social utility for 0.6 of the population Yes, so so 0.6 of the so essentially we have it could be one person It could be one person and it would still be true So so 0.6 of the population because they feel as though the needs the rules need to change Even though they do fit under the rules. They just don't like what the rules are that means that we need Yes, because we live because so it 0.6 percent of the population So if 0.6 of the population like the we're adults, we're not even going to count the minors So it's 0.6 who are adults, right start whatever they say you have to go with right just because the 0.6 said it It's not not it's not a have to it's whether or not we're going to expand this language to serve these social utility functions. There's millions upon millions of people that that these binary terms do not necessarily apply to and so if we're going to accept that they're Okay, well, we Ryan and I reject that and that's why I'm trying to answer the question And those people are clear those people will tell you that they don't that they will reject it And in fact, I also say that in a lot of the places you mentioned they're like not all of these places Like have cultures that in that all reject trans people like some of these places do have acceptance of trans people to some to varying degrees Trans people definitely exist in all of these different places as well. Um, so all right, well Let's carry on if you guys are done with that one there unless you had any other thoughts I mean, I didn't want to actually actually one more one more thing on that When we talk about the the man up thing that came up a few times there It seems like the language that we're proposing or that it were Supporting that's already been proposed and largely implemented Is language that gives us tools to talk about like what we meet what people are actually saying when they say man up That they are saying something more than be a biological man, which obviously you both agree with I think Um, we're just we're just saying this is they're referring to gendered expectations and roles when they say this All right, let's carry on there from our Superchats Mag on up and keep them coming in everybody. Uh, I see tony's just taking a little step out there, but Oh, no, he's not. He's just grabbing something on the desk. That's all right. I think my dog's got something on her I'm still here. I can hear you. Oh, yeah. No, you're good. You're good. See that is that's that's that professional live stream energy We were talking about before The man must have a bottle under the desk or something that must be I'm kidding. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. I'm kidding I'm just picking. All right, soon in them five dollars ryan when you say gender Trans binary does it take male and female to make an argument like why not sponge or yeast gender as Agender slash non gender That's a little word that made no sense To be charitable, I think they're getting at xeno genders. Maybe um, I If they like you read that one more time and I'll try to respond to it. It was at me, right? Yes So he's basically I think the real I'm kind of hyper analyzing it here. I think the real, uh Crem de la Creme of his question is does it take male and female to make an argument for gender trans binary? So do you need those foundational? Things I think as far as like I think they're saying do you need that as a foundation? Uh to make that argument Yeah, I mean, I I think so. Um in terms of when we say cis gender and transgender we are referring I mean we use the terms like gender assigned at birth But broadly that's going to be like sex assigned at birth Like they're referring to like sex their biological sex.  So um yeah All right, any other thoughts on that before we move on? All right, let's carry on then Uh angel quiles five dollars. What is a chair now? I can tell you and I'm ready and Can they see my screen? Oh Oh, this came this came out of somewhere People act like I don't think this stuff through no It's the stupidest objection when gender theorists are like well If you can't define chair, then I don't owe you a definition of man or woman Well, firstly you do because you're the one making the claim that trans women are women and trans men are men So when you make a claim you should at least be able to describe what you're referring to Second of all, we do have an obligation to describe politically significant terms Such as true of like tax citizen, right? These are important things to know what we're talking about If there is going to be legislation passed on it if there is going to be used in political context So the chair objection doesn't work. Also, I did make a slide defining a chair, but that's irrelevant. There are still necessary insufficient conditions Well, that was very uh Very ready of you with the screen share there I think they might have seen your I think zombie might have seen your question a a little sooner than when I asked it That was that was very prepared Um, I was gonna joke and say, you know as somebody who spends a lot of time with the chainsaw Whatever I've caught at waist level is now a chair that I'm going to eat my lunch on All right, let's continue on uh Do do do do keep your soup. Yeah. Well, sorry last thing on that I I guess I would agree that chair is a bad analogy for gendered terms. I yeah, I don't think it's like a good comparison Doesn't involve any sort of identity again, like we said with like gold and water and all these things There's no identity component All's good. Yeah, no problems there with that little uh, the afterthought there Uh, that was a we got a $10 super chat from Pete. Uh, who's a member and that's his first super chat But I don't have a question Pete. So, um, put it in the live chat after you see this and uh, I'll try to get it for you Young old boy two dollars Canadian a workshop on how to debate and use rhetoric duh I don't know who you're coming at with that young boy young old boy. Sorry Wait, he he he asked another question earlier. Didn't he? Who is this question to? I think I think it was in he had absolute workshop and said that's his son. V That was a compliment a workshop on how to debate and use rhetoric Oh, okay for me. Yeah, I think they're once again giving you a compliment saying that you've given a workshop on how to debate and use rhetoric Oh, okay. Thank you All right pleasant conversation I'm that guy man Two dollars euro to all four of you atheist theist deist So we'll start with you csp Uh, I'm an agnostic deist. I typically believe in the clockmaker kind of thing but with a christian lens All right and capone Tony That's all right. Yeah. Yeah, I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. No, I don't know. I was thinking about that Sorry, uh theist Theist all right. Yeah, and uh, ryan Uh, I'm general. I generally consider myself atheist. Um, I My my big problem with religion comes from like people assert that they know like that there is a creator of the universe They know what that creator of the universe wants and they try to use that to impose things on other people I think that's a very bad line of reasoning. So that's my problem with religion generally All right and so on V Yeah, I'm a theist All right. Well, there you go. Everybody's answered that question. That was pretty concise nicky for five dollars Uh, that's your first super chat. Nicky. Thank you so much. Tony. Please look up the etymology of siss and discuss Oh, no, you killed Tony. On the same side of that's the etymology The presumption is that there is a such thing as being on the opposite side of that you're preach approaching Oh My god, it's such a terrible question because and what they always do is they I've heard some bring someone bring up like the transatlantic Right is there assist Atlantic or yada yada? Um, uh, but no, they they mainly bring up chemistry like in in terms of molecules You have siss molecules and trans molecules Um, but again at the end of the day the argument it still falls apart Right and the reason why it falls apart is because we you don't define the standard Right the standard just is Right, you define things that move away from the standard, right? Like again, I'll literally use what I said earlier What do you call someone who does not get their md? You don't right, but someone who gets their md. You call them a doctor. We don't do this for any other word, right? Like it like I I don't understand the fact that it wasn't a word until what 1994 1995 And it wasn't even put in the dictionary until like 2014, right? Like there's quite literally no reason for Siss gendered to be a thing, right? Like there's no oh assist woman or assist man Like there's no reason for it that you just have man and woman You just have men and women then if you want to be a trans man or trans woman, that's fine, right? But that doesn't mean like and I'm actually I'm actually glad that we brought it back because I had a question about that um Cypher, uh, ryan, how do y'all feel about people? Uh saying that siss is a slur I think it's cringe I I don't I Anything can be twisted to be a slur if you have enough oomph behind it So if somebody is using it as a slur then it is a slur But that doesn't make the word inherently one and I think we can point to other things Uh of this nature like I can say that someone is ignorant and if I use that that's not a slur They're just it's just a statement of fact.  What does it mean to inherently be a slur? The typically way that people use the language It's not inherent. It's language.  Okay, so so we're just we're just describing a person's state of being we don't mean we're not putting any uh sort of uh Moral weight to it, right?  So that's why it's not not every not every black person considers the n word a slur But correct and it's not right the the one for japanese I think the er one is a little different than the a one wouldn't you agree? There are there I got we 12 percent of a population of 300 million people there are definitely people who wouldn't but it's not it's not inherently one So but no, but that's what i'm saying like if most cis people don't like the word and they hate it Right then a lot then logically, right? No, no, but I don't think I have to prove that most people are kind of fine with it I think but yeah, we have to prove that most pieces people consider to be a slur Well, one, I don't think that most people know what it means But two like using the exact same logic as oh if one person doesn't like this thing and we should stop using it We all know that they are quote-unquote cis people who don't like the term so we should stop using it Using using the exact same logic as the point six percent Oh, that means that we now we can change what these words mean and I don't know how everything means then if The 99.4 percent if there is even 10 percent of that who don't like it then we got it We got to stop using it. No I feel like this is a field of numbers, but the logic does kind of track Interject but I do have to go Are there any questions for me specifically so I can just make sure they didn't waste their money or anything that can answer them Sure thing. Sure thing. Let me just comb through here already Uh pointless poppy asked zombie. We already have a word for sex slash chromosomes We don't have oh, yes, that's true. We have female.  But we have a word for an adult female lion, which is the lion And so I don't know why the same wouldn't be true for our own species in cow Let's goes on by the way. Oh, but we didn't we didn't get back into it by the way Well rooster definitely chickens gender. Oh, yeah I was just a before you guys do get back into it. Uh, zombie if you want to take a minute to kind of give a closing thoughts before you sign off Sorry, what was that? No, it's okay. I can just answer the questions. I feel like tony's got this Well, I was going to say yeah, that was the whole question Me now is directly to you So if you didn't want to close out for a minute, then we'll uh, we'll give you a round of applause and the Live chat there. Thanks for coming out zombie and we'll definitely look forward to having you next time. All right Thank you guys. Thank you all. Have a good night. Good debate zombie. Thank you. Uh, I'd love to talk Take care because I love talking again. I'll bring a power point but Well, I'll get us all fixed up here fellas and we will continue on with some of these questions here Oh, well while you're doing I wanted to read there's because it's a definition of a slur, right? And it's like the insinuation or allegation about someone that is likely to insult them or damage their reputation I don't think categorizing someone as cisgender um Does any of that? So uh Yeah, unless they determine that it does Uh, I mean, I guess there are ways that it could be used like that But I don't think most people are using the word that way. So I I'm not that concerned about it Some people might feel which one is which one is more important when it comes to language the intention or the uh perception I don't think it's it's a one or the other game. I think it's gonna be a mix a combination And as well as other other factors I don't know I think these categories the category that cisgender is applying to is people who identify with the gender they were assigned at birth This is this is just what it's referring to there are people who don't and those people are considered transgender There are people who do those people are considered cisgender. It's really that Straightforward it's there's nothing more to it. You can assign more stuff to it Some people do some people use it in with more stuff around it But uh in general that's that's all it means so to just put a to put a cap on it If somebody asks you to stop using cis against them and you continue to do so because they find it offensive Then you become an asshole.  I can handle that Yeah, I can agree with that too All right, well with that we'll continue on with the super chats to keep them coming in everybody Uh, we're uh, we still got a lot of discussion. I'm sure uh surrounding these These things that you guys are bringing up So I just got to scroll up again because I did scroll around looking for uh, specifically ones for uh, so I'm here before she left Uh bro, john doe 1199 euro. Uh, that's just a fun thing to say. Uh, bro, john doe If hypothetically male is man female is woman and intersex is gender neutral Could we just identify everybody that way without limiting anyone's freedom of expression? Yeah, intersex is not gender neutral. So that's a common misconception Intersex doesn't mean like in between sexes and intersex is basically just like having Both sex characteristics. That's what it means, right? Um, and the common thing about like it's actually It's actually kind of weird that intersex is always brought up so often as it is because intersex Quite literally does not belong in this conversation. It doesn't Um, and it doesn't for two main reasons One if the whole light thing about it is identity, right and how in how you identify then Abnormalities in in in more or less birth defects don't really have a place in the conversation One two the only another reason why intersex is brought up as often as it is is because people think that there are Way more intersex people than what there act