Good afternoon and welcome to the second in the office for the advancement of research is spring 2015 public scholarship professional development series This series. Sorry. This workshop is media engagement journalism and the promotion of ideas and our presenters for today are two of our fellow faculty from the CUNY School of Journalism Tim Harper who is a longtime journalist author and editorial publishing consultant and coach He has under his belt a dozen books and hundreds of articles for publications from the Atlantic monthly to airline magazines And has coached and consulted many non profit many non profits corporations think tanks and public relations operations He's been adjunct faculty at a number of major universities in the New York City area including Columbia NYU and joined the CUNY Graduate School of Journalism in its first academic year He's that school's writing coach and the founding editor editor of the new CUNY journalism press His co-presenter for today Kerry Brown is the director of the social journalism program at the CUNY Graduate School of Journalism that program began just this January January 2015 and It's designed to recast journalism as a service that helps communities meet goals and solve problems Prior to this dr. Brown was an associate professor of journalism at the University of Memphis She's worked as a reporter and editor for such papers as the Eau Claire ledger tele-leader telegram In the Columbia, Missouri and and worked with newsroom staff at more than 50 newspapers across the US to preserve core values And adjust to industry changes as the manager of the traveling curriculum program of the Committee of Concerned Journalists Let's welcome Tim and Kay. All right. Well, thanks for having us. It's good to get to go to some of the other CUNY schools I'm relatively new to New York. I just came here in October. So it's nice to get to travel around the city a little bit This has really long been a passion of mine as someone that both worked as a journalist and also as an academic I really fundamentally believe that the research that we're doing is Important as it is to get it into journals and you know, worry about your impact factor and your CV and all those things I think we really do need to try to get our research out to the public in as many ways as we possibly can and Obviously one, you know key way of doing that is by reaching out to journalists And I just as somewhat of an aside, I know not everyone here does Criminal justice work, but I'm assuming a number of you do given where we are I mean, I think we're in a really special and unique moment right now to sort of Capitalists around issues of that sort You know the Marshall project as many of you I'm sure have heard of launched recently with very high profile leadership sort of Awakening I think the competitive spirit of you know other news organizations. I'm seeing more coverage in you know The New York Times newer outlets like fusion slate The Atlantic are many people are planning series related to all different kinds of things You know from prison reform to some of the more recent news events around police brutality And also from the bottom up, right? I mean things happening in Baltimore and you know Ferguson are obviously raising some issues that I'm sure many of us You know have long been aware of but are now coming in the public eye So, you know, it's easier to get the attention of journalists when the issue that you care about is you know already You know in the news rather than you trying to attract their attention and awareness on something that is not already on their radar So Tim's gonna talk to you a little bit about as someone with a long journalism background as his intro indicated Just really some techniques for talking to journalists Getting on their radar and then I'll talk also a little bit more about specifically using social and digital media as Another way to kind of articulate what you're working on to the media. So it's the case I was just sitting here thinking about a few years ago before we move back the city We raised our kids in Ridgewood, New Jersey really nice suburb And I was coaching a game one day after school and on the sidelines the kids are running up and down The mom comes up to me and said, oh, it's so great. You do this. So the coaching she goes. Yeah Yeah, really nice. I said, well, it's nice to get out and meet the kids and you know give some back and all that And she said well my husband would love to be a coach. I said send him out You know, we always use need assistant coaches and she say well, he'd love to but he works And I said well, I work and she said, oh, I'm so sorry somebody told me you were a writer So not everybody cares about writing the way we do What I what I'd like to do today is talk a little bit about some some history some background Give you a little bit of context Maybe a lot of this is stuff that we kind of everybody kind of knows and kind of thinks about But looking at it thinking about it again, and I think will help us Going forward with some perspective as we try to get our work published or get ourselves in front of the public And get outward about our our work the first thing is that the news journalism as we know it today is a pretty new concept In the decades before the Civil War I have years after the Civil War newspapers were the main way that people communicated and they were very one-sided very Very opinionated not fact-based based at all It was just you you got that sort of paper It was some people say we're kind of going in that direction again with some various news outlets That supposedly present fair and balanced news the It was only like in the late 1800s was a United States change became more of a urban society more of a service I'm more of an industrial society that newspapers became much more Middle of the road much more based on facts not so much just opinion and campaigning There became a real premium on what did actually happen News might be slanted one way or another certainly papers were Democrat Republican Bull Moose party all that different type of thing They had a bias, but the general emphasis was on we're gonna give you the facts This is basically where we are what what happened And now there's still it's funny. There's still that people say where we are now that journalism is dying news is dying and I don't think so. I think the Journalism is changing the news industry is certainly changing, but there's always gonna be this premium on Storytelling on presenting the facts the news if you think back to like Cave people, you know the cave people lived in a cave with their extended cave family and Everything was fine. And one day one of the cave guys notices Something funny in the sky over the couple mountains away. He says I'm gonna go check it out Comes back a few days later.  Yeah, I brought some back, you know Let's try you brought not only brought back fire But had gave the first cooking lesson that night Roasting some meat pretty soon this Intrepid caveman storyteller is going around he's going to tell us stories in different cave places everywhere He was go they were welcoming them. They told him about fire told about the wheel told them about the first cave place that had a night watchman or Tribunal of some sort spreading civilization in that way and he the caveman's storyteller loved it because Everywhere he would go you they would clad to seem they would give him the best chunks of brontosaurus burger And he could sleep on the thickest furs and he just he had a great life as the the prize storyteller People welcomed they loved him and he had a circuit at one time He's yes circuit he would go to the one time he went back to one of the places and he noticed some Scratchings on the cave wall. He said what's that? And they said oh last time you were here We're going here our best artists made some marks on the wall so we can tell each other your stories even when you're not here Came a storyteller goes shit technology And he had to figure out something to do and he realized that as long as he kept bringing new facts new stories something new People were glad to see him at some point he realized that he could make those same marks on little pieces of bark and sell them basically That's how you know we're the things are haven't changed that much It's not a big jump from that bark scratch with stories on it to carry showing us how to do Twitter and and Facebook and reddit and all that sort of thing Things are changing the word we're doing now the way the business is changing with the internet with the technology Same thing. We're still telling stories There's always going to be a premium demand for people like us for avenues for public areas for people to get news to get opinions to get analysis to get Perspective that will help them in various ways help them lead lead their lives keep them informed as academics What we need to do if we're trying to get the word out about ourselves to get ourselves in front of somebody who will spread the word for us or Get our work into a forum or people will see it and understand it and respond to it We have to think like journalists do. We have to think about what makes news. What do what are journalists looking for? One of the things we want to do a little later in this Presentation is perhaps hear from you what sort of things you're working on and how we can Brainstorm a little bit for what you might do to get your work out there But if you think about it right now, what what makes news? What what do we look for? What if the story is on? New York one or it's in the front. It's in the New York Times. What are some of the things that? That make it news people say it's interesting. Okay. Why is it interesting? anybody Got any ideas? It's could be a large group of people it could have impact it could have some importance of some significance in your community The fact that it's in your community can be big Proximity if something is close to us it matters a lot more through the West Side Spirit That publication it matters a lot more. That's a bigger story. If a kayak or drowns in the Hudson than if 400 people Parish in a in an overturned Ferry in the Adriatic Proximity being close to is a big thing Some of the other things are current. What's constant? What's a current interest something something that just happened? Anything unusual Manbite's dog conflict whenever there are people at odds doing different things having different interests Whether it's violent or not if it's more violent. That's certainly more newsy celebrity and prominence if Derek Jeter breaks his ankle that's a lot bigger story than you know if Something worse happens to somebody else Controversial things that get everybody talking and thinking That they don't need necessarily be contentious think about some of the things that everybody's talking about recently What color was that damn dress? You know was it black and blue or white and gold everybody was talking about that? Sometimes things are useful just the fact that here's some here's some news we can use service stories Here's seven tips to get thicker ankles Here's Something that will help you make Better healthier meals faster useful things Things are to have impact consequence important to important They're important to us. These are all factors that Make news and when we're doing our work We need to think about that the mere fact that we've produced something we have something to say we have some numbers Who cares? Finding the angle to that finding what how it matters and how it connects with this list of Things that make news is really the a key part of the whole process. It doesn't matter how good a study is how Thoughtful we are there's got to be some reason and often it's timeliness right now if you look about you know What's going on with? In criminal justice across America. What's going on in Baltimore right now? This is a great opportunity to look at how many Talking heads there are Sometimes there are people who are bloviating just having an opinion more often though The people who really are making an impact are the thoughtful people. Maybe they have a different perspective on things Maybe they write about One of the things we haven't talked about though Maybe they do something for somebody saying one of the things we haven't talked about is what's going on with the police or the feelings of the average police officer and the The fear that permeates permeates so many departments or they might talk about Something counterintuitive how it doesn't matter in Baltimore or other places in some police departments Whether whether the police department is black or white doesn't matter the year or the other issues that really do matter It's finding something provocative where we can make people say, huh? Yeah, I hadn't thought of it that way that counterintuitive approach can be can be very very useful When as a journalist, I'm doing something. I'm writing something producing something There are certain things that I have to do. I have to be accurate fair It have to give both sides balance some objectivity But certainly need to be brevity I Have to be selective in finding the right people the right facts the right figures very often helps if there's some human interest The best report and statistics and studies Don't really help much if I haven't showed you somebody's face until it showed you a little bit of somebody's life And how they're affected by it? I think that that Those things can really Be useful for for us when we're trying to get our information out there The counterintuitive aspect that I mentioned earlier. That's something where you really is a real opportunity for academics, I think where That's not here's another way of looking at it. And here's what is being missed in the big discussion Here's what you're not hearing on Fox. Here's what you're not hearing on CNN Here's another way of looking at it. If you have numbers to back it up This is the this is becoming the the era of data not just big data, but small statistics can make a big difference, too And and knowing how to use those and relate those to To real life can really really be helpful Journalists love Things that haven't been published before something new. Here's here's my book. I'm here's a book I'm working on that says this. No, I this is what this one chapter is gonna say This might be something you're interested in I'm available for an interview Getting things first is really a Good thing for for many journalists Look around for what? Various outlets want do they like does this place does New York one does they like talking heads? Do they need somebody? Maybe they don't have people to comment on various things. You can raise your hand. This is something I can do for you I can come in you can call me the the talk radio is has become a bottomless well of demand for for people to give thoughtful people to give opinions and saying your professor is Maybe the next best thing to saying you've written a book the if you've written a book for some reason even Doesn't matter how good the book is radio people take you and they'll talk to you you wrote a book about this You can be the sort of most of us don't want to be the screaming bomb thrower that Is all provocation and very little substance most of us? I think want to be the people who come in with a reason to argument We can sustain an argument in face of a bomb thrower with our facts with our figures with our calm demeanor That's there's a really there's a great much more demand through most of journalism for that sort of Presentation then for the provocative Bomb thrower the facts and the figures the numbers we bring those in We've got a we've got a great a great platform to to move from One of the things We've got something to say we know pretty much how we want to say it How do we find journalists? I that's a big that's a big part of it. How do we make ourselves available? The school here has great offers great help with the PR and marketing people It's certainly get to know them tell them what you have what you're working on but any Publicity public relations or marketing person will tell you don't realize strictly on me This is if you want to get your stuff out you got it You have to do something about it, too So we always have to be on the lookout looking for where we might put our stuff Atlantic is a great example. They run a lot of counter-intuitive thoughtful stuff Articles opinions reported essays, which I think would be a goldmine for for you folks And we want to look for that. What could I get in Atlantic? Sometimes we think about What are the big issues of the day? What might be the markets for that the PR by markets? I mean publications Arenas where you can where people would be interested in what you say the PR and marketing people here can help with that But mostly you can help if you go to them and say listen, I got something I think might be good for Atlantic monthly they say, okay Let's think about that and maybe here's someplace else if Atlantic doesn't want it Maybe here's someplace else. Maybe Pacific standard once it maybe Rolling Stone would take it Maybe the West Side Spirit would be interested. There's a lot of things we can do and I I would really urge everybody not to be Not to say it's New York Times or nothing Because usually if it's something Else that's the way that leads to the New York Times to the to the op-ed pages for example You could keep a list Places where you'd like to be where you'd like to appear where you'd like to speak Publications you'd like to be in and then start thinking about what you have what material what you have to say What presentation you could make that might be interesting? Contact the journalists call them up send them a note listen I have something the next time something comes up In this arena next time there's some something with immigration. I've been working on something I've got a study or I had a case recently that might be of interest to you Reporters love that Having somebody get in touch with them. They want to find new sources new people They don't want to be talking the same people over and over and when somebody contacts them You know it may not they may not fall over themselves saying thank you Thank you, but most of the time you're gonna be on file someplace And you can remind them then that when that immigration story comes up you can remind them. Hey, remember me I'm the I'm the professor who sent you that note Reading a lot seeing what looking at what's out there and what people are doing with an eye toward could that be me How could I do that? How could I get this op-ed published? What kind of reported essay could I do? What What could I bring to Brian Lair? And Brian Lair is a great example. I love that show Leonard Lopez to pretty much for Brian Lair particularly very New York Oriented very criminal justice social justice oriented and we have some of our alums ours producers and they're Scouring the city all day every day looking for stories to put on Brian Lair. They love they love ideas Sometimes the way to cultivate a source is if it's a reporter particularly you want to you would like to get something in it in a particular section of The Daily News say who who's the editor of that section who writes for that section bring them in here Have them come in and talk come and tell us what you do how you do it what you think of Higher education today, or what do you think of how the police are doing today? What could we do? What could we make do to make your job easier a lot of this? When you're thinking about publicity and getting promotional value out of your work Finding a bigger arena spreading the word about your work a real key to that is making other people's job easier If you make the Brian Lair Producers job easier you can probably gonna get on Brian Lair if you make the reporters job easier Hey, you don't have to go all running around someplace here are the facts and the figures you need I'll be your expert That's a real key. That's a real key being available making it easy for them I think one time I was consulting for a Public relations company. This is not our example by any means, but it was they had some really rich client and They were putting on a polo match and like Prince Charles was coming the lot on the Hampton someplace They couldn't get anybody to couldn't get anybody to come to no reporters to come and cover the polo match and they I was Advised them sometimes. They said what can we do? We can't get any reporters to go out there to Quagga-quagga or whatever it was and cover this this polo match And I said tell the reporters that you'll pick them up at their office in a in a limo and drive them out there And they said really I said yeah, that's the reason nobody's going out there.  It was making it making other people's jobs easier is That's why we like students who make our jobs easier The Where we want to go with What we want to produce There's a real range and that's something to be thinking about too for many of us the a real A real goal is something like an article in Atlantic or a very another very thoughtful publication like that An op-ed piece in the Times How do we do that we pitch them we send them we send them the piece we tell them this is what we've got This is what we want to do the Times Runs what a couple of op-eds a day they get I think About a hundred a week submitted Those are long odds certainly the I think the the range and the length of them is like 752 a thousand words they pay about I think five hundred dollars, but Sending it sending something in even if it's not something they want right away Sending it in looking like a professional looking like a reasonable person a lot of times you'll get back a note that says Sometimes you won't hear anything That's your answer, but sometimes you'll get back a note that says we can't use this, but we like You we like the way you're thinking we like the way you presented this try us again That's the second best response and it often is the first step toward a relationship and getting something Published many of us would love to have something once a year or once over a couple years In the Times, but that pitching sending them what you have telling them what you have Sometimes showing them if it's an essay or an op-ed you basically have to show them the whole thing You have to write it first, but sometimes we can pitch people and say Especially if we know them if we were for them before here's what I've got I could write this for you and they'll say go ahead or let's we'll take a look at it They can be very encouraging That's kind of at one end of what we do actually books is at the farther end of that and Books is at the farther end of that and we can That's probably something for a different conversation I hope I've helped many many people write research write their books and we have a publishing operation at Graduate school journalism called CUNY journalism press, which I think the central office which is like the Kremlin mostly to me What happens there, but I think they're interested in what we're doing in our model and there's some talk of Exporting the model at least to other Campuses and I think there's some place like John Jay would be a really ripe for having its own press producing Books we do books and paperbacks and ebooks About journalism and journalists and to have something like that here for criminal justice I think would be a would be a great thing But aside from books many of us will want to do articles op-ed sort of pieces magazine articles the reported essay As I said is a real Really booming these days. That's where you come into something with a point of view And you present the facts to build it up you present the case We probably have some examples of real people in it, but it's not just a screed. It's not just this is my opinion It's here's what I've done I went here and I looked you don't have to go to any place But often people will go somewhere see something give a scene talk to real people maybe talk to other experts and present a Cogent Argument with which comes to a conclusion and is is persuasive. That's a great Vehicle right now for for academics Blog posts your own blog why not if there's a school blog if there are other blogs contribute to other Contribute to other places This is one of the things that we're going to talk about a lot is becoming part of a community Building a community and then the community engagement is a huge huge part of the interactive Stuff and I think that's where I'm gonna hand the mic over to you or you talk about Facebook and everything else If you I should have said earlier if you want to ask questions while we're doing this I should have said that raise your hand. We are happy to have this be more of a discussion Now but we certainly want to do that when you start saying here's what I'm working on and we can try to help you figure that out Yeah, I'll try to be quick so that we have plenty of time for that But yeah, you guys can stop me if you want to Well social media and and having a digital I'm very loud. I tried to warn them ahead of time It's dangerous to make me at all Social media and digital media having a presence there is essentially a way to skip the middleman To a certain extent you can go direct to the public You don't necessarily need a journalist to get your message out there But it takes a lot of time and effort to really build a substantial audience for your work And even in today's fragmented media landscape where people are getting more personalized news sources Journalists are still, you know, really valuable as as Tim was just saying to kind of get more eyes and more attention on your work But I think building a really robust social media and digital media profile is also just a really good way to connect with journalists You know just like any of us journalists are gonna Google you before they interview you or You know before they even decide to reach out to you at all if you have clearly articulated your research on A number of different social platforms such as a blog like Tim was saying or on Twitter much easier for them to understand You know what you're all about where you're coming from This also allows them to come up with better questions for you, right and also helps them You know all of us even journalists don't always like having journalism done to them You know just the feeling that someone else isn't going to represent your work or your ideas and the way you would like them to But you know help them out have some stuff that they can read online That's written for you know written more excessively not in kind of that Academic speak that we use in journal articles, right? I think journalists really the majority of them, you know, and there's some bad journalists just like they're bad anything But the majority of them really want to do a good job They want to understand research when they're writing about it, but you know, I mean they don't have a lot of time Like Tim was saying I think the most important thing you can do is to make others work a little bit easier and a little bit faster for them You know, they're in a deadline. They don't have time to read a book They don't have time to wade through a lot of journal articles if they can go in find your blog Get a really good sense of where you're coming from what your research agenda is, you know, they're gonna be much more Likely to write about you and more likely to write about you in a more accurate way There's a number of good examples and I can through Daniel I can send some links around that may be good resources a Friend of mine that her name is laurene Kelly. She comes from sort of all of these Worlds she worked in TV news for a number of years got her PhD In journalism was a professor taught journalism and now actually works for the Shelby County Public Defender's office so she's sort of bringing journalism academics and Also now sort of a different role in public information and they're doing really unique things there, you know, they're blogging They're using Twitter. They're constantly trying to write about Events and issues that they're concerned about in a way that's very publicly accessible You know, so her job isn't just serving as a liaison with sort of the the local media Although that's part of it some of it's creating content so they can either reach the the public directly or You know make it a little bit easier for journalists to understand what they're all about So that's something to kind of think about a little bit Just really briefly and we can talk about this in more detail if you're interested just some things to think about starting Twitter is a great place to be not so much because it's going to necessarily get you a huge audience Especially not right away. It often takes a long time But a lot of journalists are on Twitter. It's probably among the most popular of the social networks for journalists So, you know, I don't think you have to be spending three hours a day or anything ridiculous like that But surely all of you are, you know reading interesting things every day You can drop on there and share some relevant links, you know You can at least have a bio that's understandable so people can, you know, find you very easily You know, you can start following journalists who cover criminal justice issues You'll you'll know a lot about what they're working on and you can engage with them as relevant ideally, you know Before an issue that you do research on comes up in the news That way they start to, you know, know who you are and realize that oh that might be a really good source for you You know, make sure that you have a professional portfolio website of some kind that can include a blog but also you know Photos of events you've been part of, you know pieces of your CV I mean, I still see a lot of academics that just sort of have that very static Two paragraphs on the university website, that's great and all but like why not make it easier for people to find out in a little bit More depth about what you do Mine hasn't really been updated very well since I got a new job So bad on me for that, but there's a number of great examples of or even teaching resources, you know some I mean, we're already translating some of our work so their students can understand it But I mean maybe you can put some of your slide decks that you might use in a class You know putting them online so that also a journalist could check that out or that anyone could check that out that happens Have an interest in it that can be some really good stuff to do and like Tim said I also do recommend blogging because you can also share those links to a blog post very widely on Twitter Facebook You know, whatever the case may be but you know It's obviously a little bit longer than the 140 characters you have on Twitter even on Facebook No one wants to read sort of a really big long Thing in there in their news feed for most of the time and you know, there also are a number of blogs Often that have a more of a mainstream audience. I mean, I know in journalism research We write a lot for Neiman lab, which is at Harvard University They write a lot about changes in in journalism and about the future of news But that's a great place for you know, I can write an article there About you know my research and it's gonna get much more Widely read and it's gonna help establish me as sort of a trusted expert much more than something that I might publish in a journal And I don't know what the equivalent would be in another field, but I'm sure You know, most of them have something of that nature that you could do So that's just kind of that was a very quick overview, but I know we don't have too much time left So yeah, I mean does anyone have any questions or want to talk about like a particular project their Research that you're working on that you think Did you Google me before you knew me? Yeah, I think I did. Yeah, did you Facebook me too? Yeah, she got this job and she was appointed in the autumn she was in Memphis I so got a note from the University saying she was appointed. So I Googler. Okay, good. I Facebook her I see she likes beer. She was from Wisconsin. I thought we're gonna get along so I sent her a note and you know We've been friendly ever since and collaborating on a number of things that sort of way of using social media can be Very useful greasing the professional and social Wheels I was gonna ask you something else. Oh, I know What about people like you tweet all the time What about people like me who when I've got a new story out or I got something that I've done I think is really cool or I've just published another book or article and I tweet that and just kind of There it is. I is that is that useful or what would be a better way for me to Raise my professional profile On Twitter Facebook, right? I mean on Facebook too. I don't put up pictures of food or anything But you know, I will put up something anything that makes me look like a smart competent professional that people might want to Answer my questions someday or hire me or whatever, right? Yeah, I mean, I think It's great to share your own stuff, but you know I actually think there's an important mind shift that we sort of need to make to be effective social media users And that's that we tend to think of it as all about Narcissism and about selfies and like look at me. Look what I'm doing. Um, I actually think if you sort of shift You're thinking to it being a Mindset of sharing. I mean the idea is you have knowledge or insight that might actually be helpful to someone else If you share it if you kind of think about it that way I think you become more effective and then as a side effect you actually Establish a stronger kind of personal brand as a trusted expert So I mean if all you ever do is pop on to share your own book being published You know, it's hard to establish yourself that way because you kind of come across as spam But if you're sharing, you know consistently not just your stuff, but other people's stuff that's relevant to your specific Area of expertise. I think that is that's really what helps a lot So I mean and I think showing a little bit of humanity on social occasionally like yes I like craft beer it, you know people I mean if that was all I ever posted about Probably wouldn't have a very great academic reputation, but that's for about three months last year. I think it was that was all Yeah, yeah, that's basically it. Yeah, well. Oh, yeah, go ahead Right the the question is about how somebody who does primarily academic Writing translates that into more popular writing something that isn't necessarily journalism, but might reach Wider audiences. That's really hard. I mean if everybody could do what I do, you know Then you wouldn't need me everybody would be a storyteller. Everybody could do that one of the when we get students at the graduate school of journalism who have had Really good academic careers. Maybe they've got God forbid a master's in Fine art writing or MFA or something, you know, the better they've been at academic writing the harder It is for us to retrain them to get them to forget all that stuff That's made him a good writer since third grade and become more of a journalist. It is very difficult sometimes I tell people to find it find coaches find somebody who will help you do that Maybe that's something that the people here in the marketing department can do. Maybe you find a Somebody who's a really good 20 year old journalism student who can take help you take what you are working on and put it in Much more simple direct type of sentences There's you know what I should do we should do a workshop on how to get over Academic writing for popular because there's because so much of what you're so much of what you do is passive voice What we consider backwards sentences You know for us the very best communication is a series of simple subject verb Sentences with one idea in every sentence and that's really maybe sometimes for academics What I do when I am coaching people is that make a list very simple make a list now What are the most important things? What's the priority now if you were having lunch with your mom? Or you were on a bar stool like about the bar stool test and your friends said what are you working on? You that's you know say it the same way you would tell your friend There's very few where as is or with all's or anything like that in a conversation You don't speak in that backward sentence sort of passive voice. You say this is the deal It's hard. It's really hard and I think a lot of times what the some academics Are good at having such great ideas and getting enough of the idea out there that the journalists the publication is interested enough to help them and That has to be pretty strong though very the famous the most famous academics are the ones who can write good right? well for the for the popular for popular media it's Finding finding you know a way to present your stuff and then the right place to present it is a terrific challenge That's why we're here. That's why you know if it was really easy everybody would do it I think to start with those suggestions. I made about making a list of your what are the top things in This about this subject that you want to say what are the what are the five things that you want to say? What are the one thing the two things three things you want to say about what's going on in Baltimore right now? That nobody else is talking about and how would you say that in a simple declarative subject verb sentence with one? Idea per sentence and you know that's that's really the way to get across to people When we can carry that on these things don't need to be long especially when we write for the for social media One thing I had someone else I was gonna say is anything else is a follow-up to that before we go back to something else Anything else on that? I mean I mean I think what you're right that a lot of it academic work sort of builds up to our Conclusion and we sort of show through the literature of you and the methodology how we got there I mean in a way you reverse it, you know you say what is the most important thing? I found and get that out first, you know because people often you know with media I mean it's we call it the inverted pyramid and not all writing still Follows from that train, but people may not all read to the end You know how many times you read to the end of every single news article that you find right? So I mean trying to get that boom. Here's what it is Here's my main conclusion if I can only tell you one or two things about my research Here's what it is and then kind of backing up from there. So it's just a different style Like you know it doesn't matter the problems in police forces that have Predominantly white officers don't necessarily have more Racial problems, you know if we say that that's that's that's the sentence that starts this that starts the article And then we show the numbers we talk about the different places give what people say having that The most important things in that priority in a nice list is really a great way to start Yeah, I mean I think in it. Oh Oh He wants to know if you know if blogging Didn't order to be effective. Do you really have to invest a ton of time into it and you know blog very frequently If there's any other approaches to that. I mean, I think yes in an ideal world It certainly is true that the most consistent bloggers get the biggest audience. I mean you certainly nailed that But I think even people that are a little bit more modest You know because it's a compliment to other things that you do I mean you're not trying if you're trying to make a living as a blog Or I think that would be different but because it's a compliment to your other academic work I think you can still use it in some ways to establish yourself Medium is a relatively new platform very easy to use And it you know, it's sort of the way it's kind of designed It may be a little bit easier to sort of find an audience there So that's another thing you might experiment with And certainly there are I mean in each field there is often some type of blog that You know accepts contributions from academics You just have to kind of find out which one it is sort of in your area, and then that might already have a An audience to a lot of this you're right and so much of this social media or anything else Getting the word out is about how much you're willing to put into it You know the people who you know Robert Reich bus is asking his stuff out there, and he's gets a lot out there the What a lot of it is about finding your tribe the people who are interested in what you say Getting some authority becoming one of them give and take Sometimes with forums for example, or if somebody else there's a publication you like a comment on other people's stuff Ta-Nehisi Coates writes something you come in on it, you know, here's what I think about that aspect of reparations Oh, I should have mentioned him earlier. He's a genius at the counterintuitive stuff. He's Just a colleague at the Graduate School of Journalism, and he's made a just done a Wonderful job of building a career based on wait a minute. Let's look at the other side of this Here's why you think it's a bad idea. Here's why it might be a good idea But finding your tribe those that forum the publications the associations The groups that talk about the things that you're interested in and can contribute to and it's we can't expect Kerry says about just being takers about here. Here's my new thing by my new book Asking questions give and take a lot of it is about building the one phrase is Finding your tribe building a community community engagement being part of that community and Really does Really can make a difference.  Maybe you put something up a couple times a week The more focused it is the more clear probably the better luck you're gonna have with it But then you start posting on other other publications other forums Newsletters other groups other blogs and saying here's what I think linking back to yourself Those links are huge the more you can link to your work and a lot of people build their Build their their platform is the common word right now for Social media by creating links back and forth to themselves from their Facebook to their blog Tweeting, you know the more that happens the higher up you rise on the SEO search engine Optimization and the more likely people are to find you It's I know so this is simplistic to some of you, but it It really does it work that way and it does it does take some effort, too I you know I one of the things I do is ghostwriting and I have on my On my website and a lot of different things. I'll talk about like, you know collaborating book doctoring ghostwriter and Every now and then I'll get a note from somebody who says Your ghostwriter as a yeah, is it my wife loves ghost stories. Would you write one for her, please? Yeah, yeah, it's a long game. I think I mean really Consistency over time like academics are not rock stars. It's not like you start Using this stuff and suddenly the New York Times is gonna be calling you every other day But there can be a real build-up in the same way that we build a journalism career with one little article in a local paper and You slowly More things better things and people hear about you they get in touch with you that happens with I with academics, too I'm convinced Yes So I think the question is something I've been dealing with it as a writer all my life. What do we do about incompetent editors? You know, there's I'm surprised that journalists would let you see the articles. That's very unusual I Maybe still that doesn't you know, I mean we Typically a rule in American journalism is we don't show you anything because you know If I show you something then the White House is gonna want to see what I write about them before that I publish it It's been a long-standing principle. However, many of us reporters do routinely show material to Medical people scientists sometimes academics if it is complicated if it is nuanced to make sure we got it right Will show sections of the story will check quotes that sort of thing and you can do that With a when you're dealing with a reporter you can say is this going to be fact checked is a fact check We're gonna call me. Will you check the quotes with me? This is really complicated I want to make sure this is right and I think you should probably start saying I've had trouble with headlines in the past. Can you show that? Can you show that to me? Maybe they will maybe they won't But you know a bad headline a misleading headline once in a while is not a reason to stop dealing with journalists I think but all you can do is try to Ask all you can do is ask Yeah, wow. Did you write a angry letter to the editor? Did it get published? Yeah, I mean it's hard to control. I mean, you know, obviously there are some bad editors And I've dealt with them too, but I mean something like look You know, I'm not trying to question your abilities as a writer But this is kind of complicated if there's anything I could do to answer your follow-up questions And I'll I will actually be at my phone, right when you're going back and writing the story So I don't have to like try to chase you around to ask a follow-up You know sometimes that Can help I mean it's no guarantee like someone that just isn't very good at their job isn't gonna you know That's not gonna help, but I think it can go a long way toward the one journalists You know under a very under a lot of time constraints. This is one of the it's a price we pay for the system of Press freedom that we have the same way that we're always gonna need storytellers As long as we're gonna have a democracy we got to have storytellers We got to have free flow of information to have an informed citizenry We have to have an unfettered press to the point where they can do stupid things and make stupid mistakes Without Intervention from government or anybody else. That's what it's a very elaborate System we have set up which is weighted frankly on the side of the press to encourage free press It's a price we pay yes, I Should remember that the microphones necessary for the recording some of the Some of the things that we have going on right now with the events in Baltimore You know obviously being a College of Criminal Justice. We end up having a lot of interview requests and Institutionally we certainly like to To promote any time we see our faculty Quoted in a story or on TV or what have you but I think for a lot of those Faculty that's gonna be the only exposure the individual reading that article or watching that show has to them And I also knowing those faculty in their research know that they would like to get across a more nuanced idea of Their thoughts on this situation. How do you how do you bridge that? How do you go from a you know a two-line quote in an article to a Longer whether it be a blog post or whether it be You know some longer idea of what an academics real feelings on an issue are I mean, you know certainly you can I mean that's sort of the beauty of today's environment that you can potentially You know write a blog post sort of responding to that article and expanding on it You know today a lot of journalists are also much more comfortable than they were in the past including links I mean asking someone to you know link to your work I mean a lot of them are willing to do that so the people that are really interested can go in and You know read a little bit more about the topic or issue I mean I think you know everything is sort of incremental steps I mean I think getting quoted in a piece is a great first step You know your name is out there other journalists that you know in the future that are writing stories They might pull that clip and say oh this guy gave a great interview to the Baltimore Sun You know, maybe I'll talk to him right so I think it's it's a place to begin at least you can parlay that by letting people know I did this I was on bill O'Reilly. I this is what happened Another thing that is a can be great fodder for us is writing commenting about the media about how Baltimore is being covered about My experience on Fox News what happened to me That sort of thing that's fair game to to to write about that But when you are when you do have a moment of a little bit of the spotlight is on you Maybe you're getting your seven seconds of your 15 minutes of fame is there It is a good idea to follow up on that through social media through letting other people know maybe you write something for the for the CUNY Publication for for the John Jay Newsletters in-house stuff. Maybe you write something for I can't remember the name of the CUNY wide magazine But there are a lot of opportunities if you step up and say I've got something to say about this including What they didn't give me a chance to say There are often people who will who will listen to that and within the CUNY system is a great way to start extending through John Jay and out through the rest of the system to other places in in New York City speaking at at universities offering letting it letting it be known that you're available is Great is a great first step. Yeah, and I mean to me personally. I think that we I mean I really wish that public outreach counted more for tenure and promotion And I think it's not going to count as much as it should unless each of us You know as individuals Put that in your tenure file and kind of make a case for this is really important this matters We're actually changing, you know, we're getting our work out there in ways that it can have an impact on the world So maybe you guys could chat a little bit more if I'm not mistaken It's becoming increasingly popular for media venues to either buy or partner with blogs like I think the upshot is Now part of the New York Times how do you go about Engaging that then is it different than the times and obviously those are big venues, but just as an example of You know, do you go through the times? Do you somehow go directly to them? How are those different? They're different and How do you do you go to this one or that one? The answer is yes You go to all of them basically, you know, you find out they have their different types of public They're different publications Partnering with each other for different reasons the New York Times partners with pro-publica because pro-publica is producing really good investigative stuff very economically and Pro-publica is being funded by Grants and as a bare bones operation. They don't have a skyscraper on 8th Avenue. So the times once that material pro-publica wants that exposure So there's a natural synergy there and when you have something that might You need to find out what everybody's working on first of all or let it be known And why not go to both of them go to the criminal justice reports at the times go to pro-publica? the Marshall project is I would think would be a great avenue for many of you now. Do you know about? JJ IE Juvenile Justice Information Exchange. This is something run out of our our office Daryl Conn one of our colleagues a adjunct professor who's also a Badass street reporter crime is in charge of the New York branch of the Juvenile Justice Information Exchange. I think it's JJ IE.org and basically anything you want to write or say about Juvenile Justice he'll publish And often it gets picked up by other publications Daryl Conn khan Daryl Conn at journalism CUNY ed you Get in touch through me, but check that out because there are a lot of places We don't think about we don't know about by doing that sort of research and finding places We can we can open up new avenues that lead to other things Yeah, and I mean you just you kind of just got a start and establish yourself as a good writer and a good blogger There's a woman. I forget her whole name, but on Twitter. She's Zane up. She's at UNC She's had her own blog if she studies digital and social media activism and its impact on You know real-world protest movements particularly in Turkey, but other places as well She just got picked up as one of the New York Times new You know they have like 20 new op-ed people that are writing regularly as You know not they're sort of standard op-ed section, but they have a whole like new voices But she got picked up because I mean she's amazingly prolific. I have no idea how the hell she does this But I mean she got picked up because they were like this woman has smart things to say and look at how great her blog is You know, so I mean sometimes you just got to start doing it Just start trying and you'll get better. She found a tribe with people like you and really parlayed that in a much wider audience if you look at some of the things that like Darryl Conn like Distant witness that Andy Carvin did looking at that book in the way that social media has been used in News it's it could be pretty remarkable Are we out of are we out of time? I think I had one more thing Any other questions we have a few more minutes I have a pretty large online education project we produce a lot of content a couple of Hundred thousand visitors a month. We have a managed blog Facebook page Twitter where we're trying to provide some of that content about science education What's next? Like how do we like what's a next step in terms of getting the word out further about this type of project? Write a book do a podcast do something like cereal You know think a little bigger Look beyond what you know do a do mook You know something that does something you haven't done before that might bring things any of these things though The real problem the issue is marketing letting people know about it Which is why this has to grow kind of organically in in many ways Right. Yeah, I mean sometimes, you know these social media tools do allow you to kind of target particular Audiences, but I mean if you if you really want to market something on a grand scale you almost need a budget and you need Advertising, you know, and there's a lot of things you can do with that. I mean, it's harder to do just kind of organically I mean, I think it helps it doesn't hurt anything to be you know sort of constantly Talking about it in any way that you can on as many platforms as you can But you know if you really want to do more of like a campaign, I mean then I think you're getting into sort of a full-scale Marketing effort it needs a little bit of resources behind it to really be effective. I don't know you talked about Bringing humanity to your online profile. Not just here's what I wrote. Here's what I wrote And you mentioned craft beer, I think But I'm wondering where that line is between humane and too personal especially speaking to professors who Are teaching students who are very proficient online? I think it's counterintuitive for a lot of us to be humane in a very public forum I hope this is something you're talking about with journalism students, too But as a room of academics, what would you say to us about that line? I Mean I think it's a personal thing and I don't think there's any one rule. I also depends. I think it depends on your field you know, obviously, you know if you're a In medicine or elementary education? I mean, I think there's just a lot of sensitivity in those areas But I think otherwise there's far fewer consequences to being a little bit human than you might think I'm probably a bad person to talk about this because it just doesn't bother me at all Yeah, like I'm a yeah, it's this isn't but I mean, I've often wondered like I mean I Understand in a lot of ways why not but also I mean Most of my personal life I wish it was so controversial that it would totally freak my students out But like at the end of the day like I went to the dog park. Oh gosh now You can't possibly take me seriously as someone that will evaluate I mean, I think sometimes we get like Not that there aren't concerns, but I think sometimes we overblow like how important that is and underestimate The benefits of actually, you know being able to connect with people on a human level I think that I think that matters, you know, and I think trust and credibility come in part from you know Feeling like you know someone. I don't know. I think the worst thing you can do is be boring dog park But if you if generally if you ask yourself, is this something appropriate? It's not If you have a question about whether it's the right thing or not, it probably isn't I I put up some personal things But my rationale I'm a freelance writer. I write about anything and everything and people hire me or across a broad range of things So I'll put up personal things that are out in public that I'm doing I'm gonna go I'm gonna go see Jane Lee Hooker tomorrow night this band and you know I may I may take a picture of Jane Lee Hooker and the band and put it up on Facebook or something Not so much to say Look at this but more so that people who are following me and know me as a reporter will identify reinforce this idea that I'm a professional out in the world and That I have a broad range of interest. I would never put food up things like that if I've got a I Was one of the original investors in the Brooklyn brewery, so I do put up stuff about Brooklyn brewery, but the stuff that Helps increase your personal brand basically my brand is a long time Very professional freelance writer who can write an article for you write about you write with you help you write your book A wide range of interests and knowledge or New York City and beyond so if I could put something up that shows that Okay, I last week. I was buying a pinata in Los Angeles this week. I'm at Jane Lee Hooker Next week I'm Have talking to Shaking hands with a Nobel Prize winner something like that a kind of a range of stuff that that's that helps me But the I really would try to stay away from anything boring or frivolous And it's Kerry's right is personal So this is somewhat related. I think to the last question and the question of avoiding boringness And this might not be everybody's situation here, but I manage the social media for the organization I work for and for its director and I think sometimes the challenge for me is you know We engage a lot with other partners and like you're talking about share material from our partners back and forth Sometimes the challenge is doing something that's compelling with and still safe for the organization to do and for the director to do I think of the example of like Michelle Alexander the author of the new Jim Crow on Facebook Will post long Long pieces, you know, she'll link things but also post a lot of opinion I don't really have that luxury And that's the stuff that's really compelling that she does for example So I guess my question is about what the line is or what you recommend or or even how you recommend engaging other people in the organization maybe To be part of the social media presence or be tweeting You know their activities Yeah, I mean it it it can be Challenging to you know engage people that aren't quite there yet in terms of actually wanting to participate in these things I mean, that's definitely something that I've noticed. Um, I mean there are you know, I think it all comes down to sort of just Stopping long enough to kind of think it through and have a strategy Sort of laid out that you can then execute rather than just sort of you know doing whatever at the time you know, sometimes it's a matter of taking something that may be sort of boring or dry and Breaking it up into different parts like maybe there's an event where you can show some photographs Or maybe you can pull out like if you're a qualitative researcher or something You can pull out some compelling quotes that might work well in a different venue You know to liven things up a little bit if you can't do I mean, I think you're right opinion is often You know, that's what grabs people But if that's something you have to stay away from because you're working for an organization You know trying some other things, you know visuals Can you break something down into an infographic so that people can more easily grasp, you know data That's really hard to understand And in terms of engaging other people You know, I mean, I think it's all about just trying to get them in the mindset Like most of these tools are not really that difficult to use and I mean I've seen And I've helped give like many many sort of trainings But then people walk away and they don't like nothing really changes about like they're not using Twitter any differently And I think that's because you know until you can sort of get that mind shift where you understand How this is valuable both for you personally and for you know your organization or the people you're serving You know, they're really gonna do I think that's a key part of it is Figuring out what you can put up and usually the smaller more focused more concise like our list of priorities our main Our bullet points are our bar stool talk. That's really one part of it. The other part of it is Changing the culture of the organization so many organizations now hire people to do social media. They know they need somebody They don't know what social media is They know that they have these ideas of how they want to be represented and often It's up to somebody like you to manage up and convince your bosses. This is what we should do This is why this is the benefit of it changing from within and that's that's harder kind of contractors propose something like so we work with partners around the country who aren't employed by us, but I've had companies propose For instance a webinar that would train our partners to to engage in social media around our messaging and that sounds Really unrealistic that you know chiefs of police or law enforcement are necessarily going to be on message with our or even show Up for a webinar How worthwhile do you think something like that is? Am I being pessimistic? Yeah, I don't know. I mean that's you know, it's It's kind of tricky. I mean, I think webinars, you know are always sort of I mean just yeah Like you just hear that word and you're like often do you go to one, you know But you know like like anything else You know, I think you can make them a little bit more dynamic I mean, I think it's worthwhile to try like a lot of different things and I wouldn't you know sort of say like Oh, yeah, that's really gonna You know totally improve our training efforts But I mean I think if you view it as sort of a kaleidoscope of all different kinds of things that you're doing And that's one of them that eventually you can over time, you know chain make a difference there I think in that setting or in pretty much everything else we've talked about whether it's getting your material out in a more popular Way or expanding what you're doing about your program a real secret to all this it's not a secret It's just hard to do is storytelling Tell a story make it a story. It's about people it goes from here to there It's something it can understand, you know the I love you Maybe the three most powerful words in English, but the four most powerful are tell me a story Or maybe once upon a time those two kind of compete, but we always want to know what happened next and having a narrative Really, you know, here's this situation. This is what happened. This is what happened. This is why it happened Here's what might happen. Here's what could that sort of thing having a narrative is really a key to bringing people in and getting them interested to buy in to see Not only what happens next in that story, but what story are you gonna tell next? So well, we still have a few folks here. I just wanted to point out that our Public relations officer and what is your title? You have a you have a directorship Okay, deputy director of communications Doreen Venus is here And I just like to give her a couple of minutes to introduce herself and what our office of Marketing and development what services they offer in terms of engaging with the media Okay, good. I wasn't here to hear that. Okay So my name is Doreen Venus. I work in the communications office and you know, we work to promote the college to Multiple internal and external audiences and part of that includes media outreach so You know, we are we are a resource for you Step one is letting us know what's going on So a lot of times we have to You know, we get requests from the media and a lot of it is me sort of doing like investigative work trying to figure out You know, do we have I mean I do keep we do keep a running list on topics, you know professors Faculty research that we know are regularly of interest But we want to know about all interesting things that are happening, you know with faculty so We get anordinate amount of media requests for day of Stories and that's a challenge But you know, we develop relationships with these reporters and we know what they're writing about so some like for instance I'm just want to bring up like Baltimore, you know, we kind of know the big issues But you know the curfew well if one of you has written Something in the last six months about, you know, municipalities and curfews that could be of interest and that might not be the biggest part of that story, but You know, we can work with you to maybe, you know, let a reporter know about that and maybe in the future They'll be interested in other things that you're doing. I mean, that's just one example we also work to promote, you know faculty research to the university because they also have more resources than we do so You know, they also get requests from From the media and they filter that to us on broader topics So the media kind of knows to come to us for the criminal justice related stuff but you know for the humanities and other and other areas There is interest in that so I think I guess what I want to get across There's I know you've got you received a lot of information But letting us know about what you're doing is really important if you have You know if you have interest in media outreach, we certainly can help you think that through what makes the most sense whether it's an event or a or a publication research that you have coming out, you know, come talk to us and I don't know if this was discussed, but your academic pages I would say please please please update that as often as you can and It's great to list all of your research and I Keep in mind that you know lay people are looking at this so sometimes You know if you can have a summary just in general terms what your research area is And then of course, you know you have your your your your vete and all of that But I think making it reader friendly because sometimes I'll read you know some of this and I'm still not sure exactly what What the you know what your expertise might be? And that's nothing against you.  So I mean these are just some Some immediate things that I think I don't know if this was discussed earlier No, I mean I think you hit on that's those are really key points And there's actually been research in the journals of Academy about sources and it's like there's two main things One do you answer the phone? When they call and two are you able to say something kind of interesting? You know, do you give a good quote not inaccurate but interesting those two things? Determine a lot of the sourcing in media articles because at the end of the day if your boss says I need it by five and you're calling You know and calling and calling and calling The person that answers you know that you're gonna call back The next time you decide that you need a source the building off of your academic pages is a great idea Not only for putting material up and linking elsewhere, but well for creating other things you can link to for instance If your specialty is something like curfews, maybe you create a separate website about you know city curfews curfewcontroversy.com something like that that links back to your page people go to to to curfew controversy maybe they get your academic page, but you can forward to that maybe they get a separate page and link to you You can be pretty creative about what we put up on the web and how we use different web pages to to Get the word out and tell people who we are