I have my agenda here. It's on my computer. Right. Yes. You need another computer. I do need another computer. Yeah, there it is. Okay. Thank you. So, um, We do not have any, um, Applications before us today. So I. Would doubt we probably have any members of the public even on, although hail to greenbound might be covering us for the Amherst indie. Um, I do not have any announcements. Uh, Ben, do you. Um, no announcements that I can think of. Um, I think maybe at some point, maybe this can be on, on anticipated items or topic of, a future meeting, I think for me personally being new to the commission, it might be nice to talk about kind of like the yearly rhythm of how the commission works. I understand obviously with the winters. There's fewer applications, but. You know, Nate, Nate has described to me in the past how. You know, in the winter and spring. You maybe you'll, you'll like prepare like a mailing to send out. To property owners or maybe you just focus on new property owners just to, uh, Uh, let them know about the commission and what we do and how, how the application process works. So. Um, I was just thinking that might be nice for me to kind of. Get acquainted with. Okay. Some point, but that doesn't do that at some point, but, um, Yeah. Again. Um, It's like you said, our busiest time is the spring and summer. Yeah. So just sort of zooming the big picture is. And it's interesting. Now that we're. Used to zooming. What sometimes gets to be an issue in the winter. And certainly in the summer is with people traveling. Yeah. Particularly in the winter, because it's, you know, we tend to all of us. You know, sometimes want to get away when it's cold. Yeah. So we've sometimes butted up against a quorum issue, but I, but I think, you know, this was, that was pre quarantine and before we were zooming. So. And snow days, you know, the snow storms were always a bit of an issue for us because. You know, particularly Moran. Right. Was. She wasn't as mobile as the rest of us. So we had that to contend with. So zoom has taken that problem and put it in another room. Yes. So this is a great resource. Um, because again, I mean, this, this winter we won't be traveling. But. Yeah. You know, that is sometimes an issue. And I have to say in terms of the mailing that goes to residents. Um, I think that's something that staff used to handle. But I mean, I would be happy to work with you on that again. Last spring we were so involved in the Amherst media really. Yeah. Took us over, but I think it's an excellent idea. And particularly now, I mean, to do maybe this. In January, you know, early part of 2021. Is to send out a mailing again to make everyone aware that we exist, although if they go for a, um, you know, building permit. Uh, they will let them know if they have to come before the commission. But just what the exemptions are new exemptions are, and that might also let people trigger people. Because I think particularly in terms with the mini splits, which again, is much an issue because they've now exempt up to a certain number, but people were. Do things and they have no idea they actually need a bill. They needed permission. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. There is a house on McClellan that it's an old house. It's little, um, but. I remember documenting when we were doing the documentation to become a local historic district. The original deed to the house is actually signed by Emily Dickinson's father, who was the attorney. Who handled the transaction. And the woman who lives there is very elderly. And I, you know, I walk by it a lot. And I. Anyway, I think maybe one of her children is helping to do some work there, but there was something over the entry way, which came off. And you can just sort of see where it came off. And I don't know if they're planning to repair it. But that's something that should come before us. And I'm just wondering. Is that something you might send them a letter? Like how, like, I don't think they know that making changes to the facade, particularly if it's for son who doesn't live there would know that. Well, yeah, typically the way we catch things is because people submit for a building permit. And then, uh, our, you know, permit administrators, they know to flag things that are in the historic district. So I'm not sure they just take it off and not know that they have, you know, they do something that they don't. Even know they need a building permit for. Um, that's interesting. I'm not sure my understanding. I mean, uh, reading the. By law. I thought it said. I thought it said, something about, um, you know, changes which require a building permit come before. But I think they're doing this work. You. Right. Yeah. I think there's, uh, you know, a number of people that don't, not only don't they know, do they not know what, uh, their obligations are in regard to this commission. They don't even fully appreciate their obligations. In regard to the building code. Right. And, uh, so, uh, I mean, and it's, it used to, it has changed. So it used to be that you didn't need to get a building permit to, to reshingle your roof. And for the longest time now you have, I'm going back a lot of years, but the, um, what, what is, I think the. What is required. Uh, is, you know, isn't, isn't it, it changes from time to time or it is augmented. So it's possible that people will do things, uh, oblivious to both obligations. Right. And then I suppose, um, that just becomes the building departments. Uh, first problem in our second problem. Unless we, as Jennifer, I think is suggesting we want to be proactive. And I guess the question is, do we. Exactly. I think, I think in the case Jennifer of that house on. McClellan. It's very good to be proactive because I am. I'm sure that he has no idea that there are any kinds of. Restrictions at all. And he's just trying to help his mother, but he. Right. You know, and again, if it was a hardship, we would work with that. Right. But I don't, um, yeah. So maybe then if I give you the address. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we did do that at a hundred fearing street. Okay. Because they were doing a major job and didn't come before us. And we had. Neighbors on fearing street contacted the members of the commission and said, Did you approve this? And we were like, no, it never came before us. So then they had to stop. I mean, that was a much bigger deal. They had to stop construction and come before us. Right. But this is just a little, but I. Yeah. Okay. So I'll give you the address. Yeah. And I think even if it's little, it kind of, it sets a precedent because what if they're also preparing for a much larger project? You know, and. So it's good to know. Um, I'm just thinking about this particular situation or this type of situation. And the resolution of the moment is that then. Or the town staff will take initiative, I guess, by going down and, and perhaps knocking on the door and talking. I'm wondering. Uh, about. Now. Um, What if they're also preparing for a much larger project? You know, and. So it's good to know. Um, Bruce. Um, I'm just thinking about this particular situation or this type of situation. Um, I guess just four of you now are residents. I mean, the commission is largely made up of, uh, uh, commissioners who are resident within the district. Um, And so that means that. I forgot two thirds of us are a short walk from any of these houses. Um, so the question I have is. Of the four commissioners who are a short walk from moving the house. Um, Um, Um, How would you feel about, um, Going and knocking on the door and doing what we've ascribed to Ben. And the follow-up question with that is how do we, as a commission feel about. Our. Associates. So, uh, Our colleague commissioners doing stuff like that. Is that considered to be. Um, A kind of a visual anti act or which we, which we might think is not appropriate. Or is it. A proactive constructive. Act of building community understanding and strengthening the respect for the bylaw, And so forth, which on that hand we would say is, Is a positive constructive. So I'm wondering whether, whether we do it now or we schedule it for later. I think it's a good idea to do that because it may be advantageous to us doing it as commissioners, you know, as resident to resident without the perhaps perceived perhaps heavy hand of the town coming down. And the other way I don't exactly know how we should regard this but I think it's a question with asking, because I think this pretence this pro this, this, this benefit, this pro and con on both sides and we should, we should have a, I think we should as a commission. Make a deliberate decision on this. Well, I think if it were me, and I were working on the house I would prefer a letter from the town that was kind of neutral and just explained, but I also would like if the people on the committee or commission would stop by and let me know I'm in a local historical but separate that from telling me I'm doing something I shouldn't do. So we have a new neighbor next door she was thrilled to read about everything the local historical district has written about each house. And she went to the website and looked at it and was thrilled to know that, but I wouldn't want my first interaction with her to have been telling her she was breaking some of the town bylaws. That's just always maybe about to I would like that to come from the town and kind of a neutral way. So she wouldn't next time she saw me think of me in that respect but she was thrilled to know it was a local historical district and read the research that Steve bloom and other people did. That's great. Thank you. Lauren. How about, I agree with Greta, I would feel the same way I'd like a neutral thing to come from the town. But how about this neutral thing from the town. Also mentioning the names of the commissioners in the neighborhood that this person could contact with questions and clarity and say we're, you know, there might, this might be difficult to understand and you shouldn't look at it like that and we're all ready to, to have a neighborly and explain anything, something like that be supportive. I think that sounds good. I think that's a great idea. And just in this particular case. She's an elderly woman. She was thrilled when we were doing on the study committee to become an LHD. She showed me this deed, you know she's, as she should be very proud that there's his, you know, I'm forgetting his first name but Mr Dickinson's name on her deed. It's a very modest but old house and I, so she, you know, and I don't know if maybe she's in firm now and so one of her children are helping, and I wouldn't want them to feel under attack at all but I think if there's also a way to be supportive of someone and say you know you have a house, even though it's it's very modest that's special to our neighborhood, you know, sort of to put it. I agree and have you definitely don't want someone to feel like the law is coming down on them in any way. Yeah, Karen and the laws their neighbors. Yeah, talking to him at length that when he was explaining why he was taking down all the trees and cutting them all down.  I think he's, he's a nice person. If I think it's going to be, you do have to approach him in the right way, but I think he would probably welcome knowing what the, the sort of the steps are of getting permission, but then also his people really reaching out to him and saying you know this is great what you're doing but if you want. Yeah. That's tricky and it's something that I think we should step in pretty soon because I think he's, he's, I think he has a lot of time on his hands right now. And this is what he's doing. Yeah. What's the what is the nature of the work you said facade work. I just noticed you can see where it looks like there was just maybe something over the front door, because you can see where it was taken down. I don't know if you're aware of anything in more detail corn. You know the, I think saw that there was a lot of moisture damage from the plants so it usually there was a lot of greenery around it bushes and trees, and he's kind of clear cut it. So, not only the trees in the yard, but also everything, every tree that and every bush that was leading up to the house is just kind of radically chopped off. I was wondering what was happening there. Yeah, I actually, I may have I take a picture of everything. I may have a picture of the address but if I can't find it I'll walk around the corner. You might be right Karen that something could happen quickly so. Yes, it that having a maybe I understand and agree with or said about that the role should fall primarily with Ben, or with with town staff. So what we could do in support is what you suggested Jennifer which is taking a photograph and maybe annotating it in any way appropriate and sending it to Ben just to make his job. Well tomorrow was a little dark. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, thank you great. Yeah, but this is. I mean this is definitely and you know maybe be. It's hard to sort of put this etch it in stone because it's a lot of gray of how you handle it so it's hard to get better at it with practice we just keep talking about occasionally and refine our act so to speak. Right, because again this would, yeah, it's not a case where someone's. Am I am I in do. Do you see me now I had trouble getting in it's Peggy Peggy.  But we can hear you. Yeah. We saw you be now. There you are. Now I'm in. Yes, I had a lot of trouble. I have a lot of trouble getting in I'm sorry I'm late I've been trying for half an hour. I'm sorry. I just wanted to talk about the connections, because very frustrating spend anyway. Okay, I'm sorry, and then I couldn't do it. So anyway I'm sorry to come back. Okay, I'm sorry it was so frustrating. Can you see us very. Okay, I can. Yes. I was talking I was. Yeah. Are you sure he's not living there. I don't know. I think he's living there and I think if we had these rules of the town. And somebody like you or me brought it over with a little another thing that we wrote and said this is the name of your neighborhood. And we're just commissioners that are on this, and we're happy to to clarify any of this, or, you know, we just want to be helpful. Just in a nice way right that we should just get that over to him as quickly as possible I think. Can I can I ask which house we're talking we're talking about. I don't have me it's a house on the Cullen. Is it the hall. I know which one was it. What's what is her name. Yes, he was that her husband was a minister that hall, their last name maybe hall. It might be yes they live next door to the glennons. Yeah. It's a very big, big nice lot, kind of a double lot somebody right and a teeny teeny little house, which was sequestered in there in a kind of a beautiful way. And now if you go by you think, Oh, somebody's about to clear cut and tear down the house and everything. Every landscape, because it was so. But I said that the son, who's a very nice person I think he has really no money. I think he lost his job and I think he's divorced and he just kind of welcome the fact that he had the time now to devote to helping his mother and helping with the house. A lot of problems, right. So, right. Okay, thank you. There's another house. Another house that's not in the historic district. That I'm that we've been concerned about it's on the corner of my tune and triangle. Right. Everyone anyone else aware of that house and the condition that it's in. I would have to drive by. If you were going to the high school, if you see it right on the corner there. Yeah, I know that one. Yeah, I, I. Right. Maybe even if it's not a local historic district, you might be able to bring to Rob more as attention. Who's the building commissioner. I'm a neighbor and I certainly don't want to be. I wouldn't want it to feel like. Right. Me against him in any way. I don't want to. It's an owner occupied. He seems to come and go. I don't quite, I don't quite know. And I don't know him personally. So this may be off. I don't know if we should have this conversation offline, but John Thompson is a very, very nice man. If you spoke to him, I think he might approach them in a non very non confrontational way. Aha. Okay. Can you send me that contact information? Yeah, I'll do that. He's actually with someone on the memo, which Ben will give a background of how that sort of draft memo came to be, but he's the senior code enforcement officer.  And, you know, I know I've actually contacted him about a house in our neighborhood that an occupant owner was living in. And it turned out she needed a lot of help and he was actually very helpful, you know, without it being like that, you know, law was. You know, this man is this young man has done some work on the house and he's clearly doing what he can. But it's, it's, and it's better than it was, but it's still a concern. Yeah, Bruce, it has Jim, Jim, I'm sorry history to say that Jennifer, it was owned by the people who founded the sports and I think. Oh, okay. I'm sorry, Jim wanted to add something. I just want to just, I've worked with john Thompson before on a few people over over the years that have needed a little extra help and guidance and he is a perfect diplomat and non confrontational. I'm afraid that if one of us from the committee commission actually went to someone that we felt needed our advice. It could be interpreted wrong, and might be sort of reflection coming back here and I think both agree to him Karen have mentioned before that it probably should be somebody from the town. I was simply asking the question I didn't have a position on that, but it seems that the consensus pretty much is with with you and Greta and Karen. And is it possible to be a little individual like if Karen, you know knows this person. You know that. The question is, do we wait, do we put our name as somebody that they could talk to and wait for them to come. And then, or not, in other words, do I think we decided that that was a good idea. And, and, you know, I think we're working this out as we go along and so for the moment it sounds like the consensus of the commission is, as Jim just most recently stated that we, we don't take initiative that we support Ben in the way we discussed in taking initiative. And with what Karen Karen says just, we make it possible for a resident to reach out to local to resident commissioners in the neighborhood. So I don't really have it, but that gives me how that goes. Yeah, I was gonna say so. The property on and the D and Lincoln that's managed by Eagle Crest that was in disrepair at that paint was peeling. John Thompson got that painted. Right, someone. Yeah, he went and talked to the owner so as Jim said he's a great intermediary is a real gem that the town has. Yes, and one of the ways in which you can I mean I know we're about to discuss the, the possible expansion of the bylaw to include some force of the local ordinance for this, but there is a dimension of so called soft power and this to I guess where people like john and I agree with Jim. I've had many dealings with john as well. I mean and find him exactly the same people who've got that, you know, basic diplomatic skills and personality traits. Can mention to property owners who are like this example that you cite Jennifer and say you know, it's really would be a good idea for you to paint your house because right now it's, it's, it risks being an example for leveraging the town to make a bylaw. And if you want to, if you don't like that idea you might want to paint your house and not give the commission the ammunition that it would otherwise have. So it can be used that way as well even if we decided not to go with this proposal of yours for the moment Jennifer I have no idea what town would decide but even if the decision is to hold off. I would not hold off using the kind of persuasive power that the possibility of such an ordinance allows. Right, I think that works.  Oh, Lord, no, no, no, no, I know that. No, you're taking it off. I don't know if it was to repair it or he just didn't like, you know, I think we've done with that place on McClellan we've spent half an hour on it wasn't even on the agenda. But speaking to the the bylaw potential your, your, your memo which I read suggests that the real problem is with the institutional landlords and that's why I said what I said. Yeah, I appreciate that. Do you want to add something. I wanted to say that I am convinced that there's just a lack of knowledge so often I mean, how is one to know if you move in here that there is even any kind of regulation from the historical. We got something a year ago or so but somebody that's new and taking over his mother's house is not going to know. So, and it's important that they know, right, because they're in the process of doing a lot of things. So how can we get that information out. I think that gets to what Ben brought up about in terms of our calendar that something usually gets sent at the beginning of the year. So there is I guess a, yeah, a few month lag but you can take that then. And I guess if we, so that that every year we would send every year, what has been sent out to everyone in the neighborhoods is information about the local historic district commission. Yeah, add our exemptions. Yeah. Okay, but so maybe with that then we should move to the next agenda item it seems like you know we just sort of segue into that and you can you know tell us how we get to the memo. Yeah, of course. So, yeah, I, I basically set up a meeting with Rob more of the building commissioner with Nate, who you all know and then with john Thompson, who's the, you know, he's the code enforcement officer. And I just wanted to kind of gauge their thoughts on the minimum maintenance bylaw as, or as they would be the ones to ultimately enforce it. And I think and I was kind of curious what other means to that and there are like our, you know, the town has a lot of different avenues for enforcement whether it's the state building code whether it's, you know, and that's both health and food violations. And then there's kind of like you know things embedded in the rental registration bylaw. And then. So I was kind of curious from john and Rob what what other ways are there to enforce and kind of what their thoughts where we're just wanting to get a better sense of what the exact issues were that the local historic district commission members are concerned about because there's a lot of things that do fall under building and health code violations. That can be enforced, and that sometimes don't get enforced, because they're a little bit just fly under the radar. And it's, you know, the, the health of the state building code and I'm sure Bruce and others maybe know this is very complicated and very lengthy and very wordy. And so it's like, there's some cases where it's just like, it's sometimes hard to interpret but it's also because there's so much in there it's a little bit flexible in that sense. And so, you know, like for example, peeling paint, you know, you could stretch that to be like, you know, a paint, a solid layer of paint does protect the envelope of the house from moisture and from, you know, pests encroaching and like, what would that hold up, like, after a lot of scrutiny maybe not but it's like a way to to technically use this state building code to to enforce certain things so like I'm not saying that would be the ideal route to go but actually that led John and Rob to say like, you know, it'd be great if the commission could put together a memo describing the exact issues that they're concerned about and then they can look that over and see, you know, what the best route is to go forward because, you know, truth be told, another bylaw, you know, there's certainly some benefits to it but it also puts more strain on the building commissioner and the inspection staff who would really need to enforce it. And, you know, they, they're already stretched pretty thin as it is. And if they got more staff, the staff would probably be used to enforce other things, mostly to do is not a great appetite for this. Mostly for student rentals, which, you know, is related to this but I guess they just wanted to make sure, you know, it's, it doesn't make sense to write a new bylaw if it's not something that can be enforced, because then it's just sitting there. So, I guess, yeah, that's kind of what led to the idea of kind of putting together this memo and really spelling out what the issues are. And, and then kind of allowing John and Rob to digest it and then kind of see what their thoughts are for moving forward. Maybe they'll come back and say, you know, we hear you, you know, but we think we can enforce this issue through the state building code this issue through the health code this issue through here. All we need to do is just have a better line of communication or something but maybe, you know, a bylaw could also be necessary as well. So, and I will say to on a related note. I'm helping the Historical Commission write a new general bylaw related to the demolition delay and historical preservation. And I've come to learn that the process for enacting a new general bylaw is is pretty lengthy, because it's, you know, you need to, you present to town council. Your first step and the commission would be the sponsor and then the town council then refers it to two other to, I guess it would be the CRC subcommittee and then the GOL subcommittee, and then for like two months they have, you know, subsequent meetings where they read through the bylaw makes changes and suggestions. And then you present and then maybe two or two months later or so you present that final lies version to town council hopefully with the recommendation of the subcommittees. And then it would ultimately be approved for the but so I just kind of wanted to. Now is it the same process if we were to add added as a section to the LHD bylaw, like the rules and regulations.  I'm just want to be careful with the terminology the LHD bylaw sits within the Amherst town general bylaws. We have our separate rules and regulations. We added it on as somehow like the Edgar town it's just a part of their local historic district would it still have to go before town council I guess is what I'm saying. Especially if there's an enforcement kind of mechanism that, you know, there need to be an appeal process, a grievance process and that that would need to sit in the general bylaw. I guess I know I'm sounding like a broken record because I've said it before, you know, my issue is just the picture of that house it's on Fearing Street. So something is it that level of disrepair to be told that there's nothing the town could do about it. That's where the problem was I mean it's really not getting to minor but when you get when something gets to the point that it looks like a slum for back lack of a better word. Yeah, owned by a, you know, someone who owns properties throughout town it's not a hardship situation. It doesn't seem like we should be told oh well there's nothing we can really do about that. I mean, you know again john Thompson went and spoke to the owner and they did make some repair so that's kind of our that's how it works, but so, I guess that's those pictures were amazing. Yeah. I worked for john so it might be more trouble for john to go and talk to them about painting if he if he has to use this the soft power persuasive route that I outlined before, rather than simply reminding them of the, their obligation. I mean, in either case, the town is the town staff are involved. So, I think we should, Jennifer, you're, you're just strong about this you've been strong since the, the afternoon you assume the position as chair. And so I've known this from that moment. And we've broken record. No, no, no, no, not at all. No. No, no, no, no, no, no. Consistently concerned. And also, I think, careful and thoughtful about it because you know we had this year of preoccupation with the Amos media actually, well yes, it was a year. And clearly we, you just put it aside because you know we had. But my sense is that using that example, whether it's been painted or not, because you've got the photographs before it is, and saying, should we not have a mechanism? And should the property owners not feel that they want a mechanism to not have their property or the threat of their property values lower by the indifference of a particular person on the street? I think, you know, one can make a persuasive argument for that and that the town should care and, you know, challenge the town council to say, we don't know, I'm sorry, it's not important enough. I mean, I think the way you're fired up about this, it would be difficult for the council to sit there and just ignore it. And I think the first victim of that are the tenants, because I know, you know, that's a, yeah. But Karin, did you have your hand up? Yeah, I think taking that example is a good litmus test for us, because you're saying, can these things be addressed through the other things like health and all these things? In this particular case with the pictures that Jennifer showed, could any of those things that you mentioned that they said, well, can't it be addressed through this or that? Could they have come in and helped? Or, and if not, as Jennifer said, there's nothing that town can do, then that's a perfect example of something where there's a need for something else, I think. And could we, along those lines, Karin, I mean, because I agree, Ben, if there's, I don't want us to go through an exercise, if there's really nothing we can do. But if we presented that to Ben, to Rob and John Thompson, like could they say, well, that could be addressed, you know, through one of these other codes? I mean, what I, as I recall the conversation, because I had a conversation with Rob Morrow on the phone first, is he said that they, that they had given the owner their permission to post, because you could see there's a for rent sign, that they told them they could begin to rent it, even though there were a few more items that had to be done. But, and I think they might have had to fix some of the struts that were out of the balusters, but there was nothing that they could do for the peeling paint, right?  I've never come across any provision in a bylaw, you know, building code that would have me repaint a building. Yeah, there should be. I mean, led and so forth, but that's another matter, and it doesn't ask you to repaint it, it simply asks you to mitigate. And I think that the other Eagle Crest property on Lincoln, you know, next, you know, the one like maybe it's two houses down, right? Right, not same property owner, almost has been at times in the same level of disrepair. That is absolutely true. Yeah, well, I read what you sent out, Jennifer, and I have a few opinions. I don't know how you want to go ahead with this. Do you want to you want to put it up and go through it? Or have we all read it or what? Yeah, and then I guess then the question becomes, because I sent it to Ben, and then Ben, I think had, I mean, do you think Ben, it's still worth sending? Oh, yeah. Yeah, maybe you would gotten feedback that oh, there's nothing they can really, but so you think if you feel that it's, you know, we should still pursue it, I would very much like to put it up and have everybody's input. Yeah, no, I think we can you put together a great draft, and then we can take some time the rest of this meeting to just maybe go through it, kind of craft it together, finalize it together. And then I can send it to Rob and John, and then maybe hopefully by our next meeting, you know, we can have a response from them. Yeah, feel free to, you know, a lot of the, you know, just, you know, do whatever make it add. And then I added the your pictures at the bottom here. Okay. Thank you. Yeah, wow, this is those missing balusters certainly can be addressed by the building too. Right, right. Yeah, somehow I love the for rent sign. Right. Yeah. And I have to say when I first the first call I made was to the rental company, and they did tell me on the phone that they were finishing up some work in the back, but they had no plans to do anything to the front. And that's when I called Rob Morrill. Anyway, yeah, for you, Jennifer. Yeah, this is the way one of the ways it works, I guess. Yeah. To that extent, there is a bit of vigilantism going on, but it's rather small V and right. Alrighty, so this is kind of like your intro statement. Peeling pain, missing balusters are not the result of property hardship, but rather the refusal to make repairs that are not required by code and enforced by the town. I had a couple of observations or comments on that first paragraph. Is it appropriate to deal with it paragraph by paragraph? Is that the way you want to deal with it? Yeah, I think that's great. I thought that you're a little overly focused on so I thought so what's the north? Sunset, here is in even the north sides of Amity Street, instead of the houses that clearly appear to be suffering. I think you should say these houses clearly appear to be suffering. And then further down where it says porches in advanced stage of disrepair are not the result of the property and its hardship. I would say are often or generally because we don't know for a fact that's all the case and then but rather often the refusal to make repairs that are not required by code. So I thought I just soften it so it doesn't look like we're talking about every dilapidated building is unaffected by the owner's financial hardship. Was there another edit you wanted me to make? Often not there's other of it. The often not and then at the last line make repairs that are result of the financial hardship but rather the refusal to make repairs that are not required by code. Yeah, maybe you should say often the refusal but rather I'm not sure whether you need another often after. I think I'll leave that to your mathematical thing. The essence is what I'm saying is just try and soften that a bit. So now I'm good. Yeah, I mean I guess yeah we can continue going through it paragraph by paragraph. And I don't know like when you said it Ben it has to go before the full council and all these committees. I don't know you know we had talked about the last meeting maybe doing a pilot just in the LHDs is that something that is is there any vehicle for doing that so it doesn't have to go through the bureaucracy so to speak? Yeah yeah because the local historic district you know the commission you guys are empowered by the town's general bylaw which you know gives kind of like defines the local historic districts and gives the commission you kind of like lays out the approval and review process for the certificates of appropriateness so that's all embedded within the general bylaw of the town. So we couldn't even do a pilot project without it going through. Yeah. Do you think it when any suggestion of a pilot makes it more palatable to them? Yeah yeah certainly. Yeah. So what commissioners what do you think it should that stay there? I mean I don't know if it's in that particular paragraph I think it gets more down. Yeah I'm kind of asking you if you think all of you that that is a way to go? I mean that that might make it more like again palatable to the council to give it a try? I don't think we're at the point of trying to decide whether it's palatable to the council or to the town staff. I think we have to basically decide to how are we going to represent your concern Jennifer on behalf of the commission. So I think you've done this I would that might be crossing a bridge before we get to it. I think that basically you've written a preamble which we're now looking at. Okay keep going just later on I mean it does somewhere in there I can talk about oh I think I said the proposal where we can keep going. This is the pilot. Right. So in that second paragraph just another we're in the middle says the front of you say the front of the residence is not considered destructual code violation and in the absence of a minimum maintenance bylaw I would change D to A so it says the front of A residence is not considered destructual code violation and the absence and I would put in the absence of something like a minimum maintenance bylaw so it is a preamble so it's really you're leading up to the what we're proposing yeah the proposed solution okay thank you I mean I don't know like like Rob might come back and say well actually there are things we can do with the building code for the front of the residence like I think the balusters on a porch would fall under that. Yeah but how much of it and then so he'll basically respond to this thing that Jennifer's put together and we'll say okay so 20 percent of Jennifer's concerns can be addressed by the by the by the judicious application of existing regulation what about the other 80 percent or if he says that 80 percent can be addressed and we're concerned about 20 percent then you know that would that would tell us something 20 percent right but I think the bottom line is like Rita was saying no no property should be allowed to look like these pictures. Right right so we'll so you've done what was suggested you've put together this thing so we make sure it now comes from us rather than you and we give it to Mara with the question why don't you want to do why is this not what we should be doing and if he comes back and says well we don't need to because of all then then then you know basically it's like tennis we're serving the ball and then we'll see what his return of serve looks like and if it's a sloppy return to serve we belt it down the sideline and say that's our point or if he gets a really good return of serve we think oh maybe we want to serve differently next time so I think this is the game really. It is and that was a little kind of the response and it was like well we can't really do anything about this property it was like okay well then the commission's going to have to address this because clearly something happened. I agree with Bruce I think that's a great analogy and I also think the pilot could be our return serve so we serve it to them and if they don't like it then we say well we're proposing a pilot then that could be our second option so that we have that backup. That's excellent suggestion so should we take out any reference here Ben to the and then if they don't like it we can make it a pilot. Yeah I will say I'm not sure the commission could propose like a town-wide bylaw. It wouldn't be town-wide it would just be for the district right? Yeah I suppose we could but obviously we would have far less standing or our standing would be compromised greatly so I assume we're talking about one or other or both of the districts. Yeah I think so too. Mm-hmm yeah and I think that's in here at the proposal section. Yeah okay are there any more suggested edits? Well as you go down to the proposed remedy paragraph again I've got where you say a lack of basic maintenance can lead to the gradual. So this is actually I should say this whole piece is taken directly from the Massachusetts Cultural Commission website. That's not my language. Yeah well we can still improve on their language. Yeah we can. Because you can delete that and just put the word leading so it says addressing buildings that are suffering from deferred maintenance leading to the gradual deterioration of a building. Yeah there's six or eight words there that don't need to be there. But maybe might it suggest then that you make it make it clear that you're referring to a different town's townships bylaws in this paragraph. If you're using the language of another or another. Yeah this is the language of the state. Well then I would make it clear that that's the language of the state because I wouldn't have known that. Well what does he ask for the explanation the Massachusetts Historical Commission website. I guess I should quote it maybe quote it yeah you're right I make that clear. Yes you could quote it then I guess my editorial improvements right I'm sorry I should just say may be or not are irrelevant. But it is implied that it's a quote so yeah but maybe we could after website where it says a minimum we could put a quote there. Yeah and quote it till the end of that paragraph and then most minimum maintenance bylaws that's me. Okay I'll make that. Thank you. Okay yeah all areas and town of your town. All of those have to be changed. I'm just going to capitalized town of your town. Yeah. Also Jennifer I was working from the from the pasted in language on the email so I'm probably not seeing a more sophisticated layout to a paragraph thing or that sort of stuff. I don't have I don't have total clarity in what you're I don't have the complete product of your what you're proposing here so I may confuse things as you resolve. So then you move to possible language for a minimum maintenance. Well before that there's the paragraph of proposal which was what we're. Oh I thought that was fine. Okay. I just said that no no doubt instead of not doubt. Right thank you. Okay then possible language and again that's the language from the Edgar town bylaw. Because the Edgar town was the one that seemed to be the only that was embedded in their local historic district language. Yeah I think I would I would make a general introduction that I might be inclined to put that as a footnote. So the information is there but it's not it's contextual but it doesn't it doesn't get this much attention. So basically but we should write this abc the down through F as though it's a proposed language and then as a footnote at the bottom at the beginning. Oh say they from Edgar town. Yes okay. I think that because it's useful to tell people. So then you'd say that that paragraph the minute makes about from that paragraph under where it starts the minimal maintenance language from Edgar town put that as the footnote. Yes I just say the proposed language is based on a historic district bylaw blah blah from the town of Edgerton, Massachusetts, Martha's Vineyard I guess. I mean it could almost be like also because there's the I have the pictures at the end it could almost be like an appendix like A and B. One is the pictures and then one is the proposed bylaw language. Yeah I'm not sure by footnotes do you mean like literally in the footer of the on the page that it appears yes right a footnote so that you know you have a little one or an asterisk at the top where it says possibly it says possible language for a minimum maintenance bylaw and then there's a you know an asterisk or a one or an A or whatever it is that this keys the footnote and then at the bottom of the page is the reference to Edgar town. That's that was the way I think it could be done because it takes the it diminishes the graphic importance of the whole thing about Edgar town which is not that important it's distracting in a way because it's stopping you from getting to the core of the well this is that's kind of the that's kind of the end of the you're saying it's stopping you it's distracting you from getting to the ABC section. Yes it's so you know when I'm reading stuff I you know I get irritated by things that are stopping the the the core intent it's not that this is irrelevant it's just not so relevant that it should take up the first paragraph of of of this section on possible language it should be a small note that gives the information that does not it's not the primary it's not the most important thing right it's the least important thing I mean we just want to um right it could be in a footnote just to say that one that language is legal in the state of massachusetts because there is a town using it yeah well that's implied yeah and this is but I have I think that's a fine suggestion to put it at the end as a footnote if that because then you move straight into the proposed language yeah you don't have something that's so you say where does the actual language start right and the language starts right after the word bylaw colon bylaw language yeah okay yeah that makes sense sir I just wasn't I just wasn't understanding at first that I think that makes a lot of sense um so I guess one thing I know what I'm sorry I was pretty sloppy so Ben I could go through it like under a it mentions edgertown so we'd want to take that out uh okay yeah yes and what we should decide here and I suppose we for the moment we should put both of the historic districts in right so it should be so it'll be long it'll be amist uh or we could just call it the amherst local historic districts we don't have to yes that might be better because then that would be a lot better because then again wouldn't be stumbling over something right just amherst historic districts and and then if the uh council seemed to think that we have to be more specific then um we'll add it go add it but I think you're right even so because we could add a third historic district and then we'd have to update this and it would be better if we didn't and so I think you're right this is the end yeah and this is interesting they they have more specific language in the rules and regulations of their um historic district commission so that's that's kind of maybe a similar process that we could look at which is get the authority to enforce a minimum maintenance by-law that's what I think edgertown has yeah and maybe I could contact someone in I or Ben I don't know who's most appropriate to try and find who maybe chairs their local historic commission in edgertown yeah how they do it because it seems like it's something that that commission does just for their historic yeah but what I'm saying is this this by-law is enables is probably in the general townwide by-law I see that enables the local historic district yeah but then they have more specific language in their rules and regulations okay I see which they're in charge of um and you know specifies exactly what how they define state of poor repair so in the possible language part we changed historic edgertown historic district to historic Amish historic districts um and the same with the local district the Amish local historic district commission rules and regulations um halfway through that first or two-thirds of the way there's a reference to section four as defined in section four well that's that's a reference in to the edgertown so we would clearly have to get rid of that yeah and and if there is a reference that relates to us we would insert it but but that's that has to be stricken so should Ben and I go through this and then send a copy back to all of you I was just going to suggest yeah so we don't have to take better use of time all your time with that well yeah just um very briefly the one thing I was going to say is um there's a little bit of a mismatch between the substance of the memo above and then what's in subsection B here because like I think that's portrayalings is here but I didn't see anything about shipping paint um or you know I guess that was right yeah I think that's a very good suggestion I was going to suggest that where you say porches and porch railings uh you could put porches including steps and porch railings because at the moment we don't have steps in there either right okay an edgertown so flat they probably don't have any steps so we could maybe take out chimney or chimney support systems because that's a ready part of our bylaw right uh well well no no to not to enforce the disrepair of okay then so should we add maybe five I think so yeah and I I think I'm going to take my leave right now there's some things going on at home okay that's okay we're not doing any voting so thank you Peggy and we'll send this out to everybody before it goes to Rob and John okay thank you have a good hall and we'll let you know when the next meeting scheduled after the new year perfect okay have a good holiday thank you all of you too um so how do you put peeling paint in a way that um I'm just reading how the paragraph above ends it says blah blah blah if if allowed to deteriorate if um would if allowed to deteriorate cause a detrimental effect on the character of the district and contributing buildings and structures as follows so you could be I don't know if you need to say peeling paint but you could say like just paint or like house exterior paint you could put peeling slash failing paint too that's another way but yes exterior paint okay because you know it always seems when you bring up paint they get well you know what you know not everybody's house has to be a pristine right it's not it's not the color we're talking about yeah and we're not talking about some you need some touch up we're talking about those pictures yeah yeah but I guess one thing I will say is okay never mind actually um this is saying a detrimental effect upon the character of the district it's not saying anything about the buildings themselves would you know collapse or what I'm trying to say is um you know this is exterior paint it's yes it is important for the integrity of the you know but right more important for the effect upon the character of the district yeah yeah exactly exactly okay so does condition of exterior paint work I think yeah I think that's a good way to put it condition of exterior paint my guess is that this is the section that would get the if this were to go forward in other words it might get looked at by uh the subcommittees to review this or and and they would give it almost no consideration except to say I'm sorry we're not going to do it but to the extent that some positive inclination to act on this and to actually generate something my guess is that these uh items one three one two three four five would receive the a huge amount of time and effort so we're only beginning that so I think we don't we shouldn't get ourselves that we're going to we're going to we're going to get the get the last word on this we should do the best we can but then quickly push it on and because it's the this is this is the part that other people can can and will get involved in I would imagine would you agree again if yes yeah so do you want Ben and I to take another shot at this and then Ben does this work to send it out to everyone and they can get back because I know in terms of open meeting law we can't discuss it but they could get back to you if they have comments and then those comments could be incorporated and then if we want we could even get another draft out but yeah Jim yes just just you know wanted to make a comment I kind of think sometimes the conversations getting into the weeds here yeah I'm going to get a finished document I agree with a basic thrust of this and the fact that you're going to talk to John Thompson and Rob Mora and you know get some feedback of stuff as to how it's you know can can work out so if you invent another draft and send it to us that's that's great yeah certainly not going to have too many complications from my end right thank you um but we will get you a draft before we send it on to them I think we should do yeah we should do that yes I think so okay because I don't want to take up everybody's time going through sentence by sentence um but but Bruce this was fake I mean if you have more you want to add this this has been very helpful I got one more and by the way I I perhaps did dive in a little deep here but that was because I feel because you've probably no rubber guilty by uh being so derelict is to have completely forgotten the last meeting when when this was discussed so I'm trying to I'm trying to well thank you appreciate makeup for absent previous absence but the last thing I would say is uh in f you we've got the penalty or the fine and my sense is that we should just um um put something like TBD or you know in in the woods just step right back from the fine but I'm not sure do the rest of us agree uh do do we have a sense of as a commission what an appropriate penalty would be or should we imagine that when it comes to dealing with penalties we should just push that completely to others a bin um I will say 300 is a 300 per day per violation is a pretty is like fairly uh steep no oh I was just gonna say it's fairly consistent with other things like I know the violation for the demo delays 300 a day the I think violation of not getting certificate of appropriateness is probably around there as well okay yeah okay I assumed that it came from uh Edgertown um and I guess it did but that's even more interesting it it would indicate that there's some statewide consistency here so maybe it's a very good number yeah I will go on I was just gonna say I will say like there's been cases where there's like I actually I don't know if there's actually been cases like this but you know it's the 300 per day like if something happens like years ago like uh someone takes down a shed then they forgot to do the demo delay hearing and all that like yeah it's it's less about like oh my god like 300 per day that could be like 10 that tens of thousands of dollars if it's if it's years ago um but often it's more of a thing like the town will just say you know we could uh uh find you tens of thousands of dollars or like next time why don't you make sure you do this the right way um yeah because like and c section f of the of the new bylaw but um I will say I think this bylaw is pretty short um we don't have to do this now but you know I think there this is basically a new uh enforcement mechanism that would need a process for you know how do how do we hear complaints who how do we talk about do we have like 14 days to respond as a commission to whether we want to penalize someone or you know does it do we get a ruling from the building commissioner and then so I just think there needs to be a whole process that should be in this next draft then I think yeah there need to be a process developed for um you know receiving complaints you know I guess like always up on them enforcing it notifying the owner yeah um well it's it presumably that's similar to other uh we we could take the language from other um bylaws other bylaws yeah and and I don't know jennifer are you going to call uh people in edgertown and well first I'll talk with ben about what we may have in amhurst and then if it's appropriate I'll follow up with uh or I was thinking generally about how it functions and I think it was I think it would it might be the subject of a separate memo that went with the overall proposal that said you know just a half page that described the experience of edgertown and I and edgertown perhaps would know of other um jurisdictions in Massachusetts with this they may have gotten from someone and and it would be interesting to know how long it's been in in in you know enacted and and what their experience is and I think that would be helpful um if I were a counselor I would want to know that um yeah I mean I know that anyway well there's some concern that like if it goes before the council that we're not trying to be edgertown because they don't want us to be that a feat but you know again they're they're the you you would have a force would be helpful you would write it so that it was purely um right it was an edgertown but yeah and you can also use lull which I think doesn't write the same but has has a little different feeling but has um yes I also have the same thing okay yeah great Greta just did uh did some research and got that to us I'll definitely look at that yes the town council would right right and they talk about same thing architectural features anyway they have they go into detail similar to what we're doing I'll look at that but right so even if we don't get this to Rob you know if we get it to them in January I think that's fine too if we keep working on the memo yeah I mean realistically people are going to be working at maybe like half capacity right two weeks anyway so exactly this won't be at their top of their list before the close for the year um okay does that sound like thank you very much Bruce and everybody else and thank you Greta for the research on law and I will thank you for working with to working on this and getting another draft to Ben and Ben and I will be in contact and then we'll we'll get something out to you all before our next meeting which thank you Jennifer so um will that bring it so I don't have the agenda right in front of me uh Ben would that bring us now I mean does anybody yeah that was that's pretty much it um there's no members of the public here for public comment so next meeting do we have any did any applications come in um nope there were there was one um that came in last week and we determined it was you know well out of view of the public way um and then uh yeah that's pretty much been it's been very very slow very quiet um oh okay so they don't so at this point our next meeting might just be to continue this conversation if we don't have any new applications yeah yeah exactly right also start yeah and then you and I will also um discuss but we will get it to the committee uh the transmittal that will go out at some point after the new year letting people know okay so should we just pick a date in january yeah available yeah maybe not going anywhere maybe mid to late january just one one in case any applications do come in and two it'll give us time to um right so january 18th monday is uh martin luther king's birthday so should we do it the monday before after that should we say after which is getting us to the 25th or i would say after because we don't seem to have any urchin to business so then monday after would be the last monday in january which is january 25th does that work yep good for me okay um okay so we'll see okay four p.m. still good for everyone yeah okay thank you very much everyone for your input and we'll get you back another document and ben i will get you the address on mclellan street oh yeah yeah let me know um yeah and i guess uh is i i guess just briefly is there any like precedent for this did brandon or nate ever write a similar letter that i could go off of or is it is this a little bit of a new a new thing i don't the only one i'm aware of is the um 100 fearing street but that was a little different because they had gone in for a building permit to do their to do the remodel and they were told then that they needed to get a certificate of appropriateness right and they quote forgot and so they started the construction without so that was easy and right just had to say guys you were you need to stop because you didn't and would how would you feel about just going and knocking on the door and saying uh you know our commission has been discussing and we are curious uh i could i could do that yeah i think um well actually i am working remotely this week so i'm over in samden but it's not not too big of a deal too but that would be there it could be next it's not urgent yeah i mean that would be the that would be if i were doing it as a as an individual whatever capacity i chose that's that's what i would do and then yeah i was figuring out whether you need to write a letter or not you know yeah i was also gonna say if um if i have the address there's a way to look maybe through the property viewer and possibly get a phone number or email yeah because it may be the kind of thing that again what seems to have come off above they may be in the process of preparing it or getting a new one they may already be but again i guess they're making a change without to the facade without coming you know yeah okay and also i can talk to you about that too okay i'll even be happy to walk over there with you if that makes a difference okay or car car knows them like we're we're done time for tea so with that um i guess i wish everybody a very happy holiday and uh yeah hopefully we could you will maybe next thank you for all your work together okay thank you for a great year thank you for all the work you've done oh no thank you and thank you ben and uh happy holiday bye bye happy new year bye bye thanks everyone