Sharon, Sharon, Sharon, Sophia, Sharon, Sophia, there's a, I don't know why I'm awful with names, I just am. So, Sharon, you asked a question about pairing, developing new reinforcers and all that stuff on the video regarding, hold on, let me get my cheat sheet here, unconditioned reinforcers. So really what I have to do is say, you know what, just back the truck up, completely back it right up all the way to Pavlov because that's where you're going to need to go to understand the answer here, all right, and that's a long back up and you're going to have to cross an ocean. So, I don't know, maybe there's a land bridge, maybe we have to back up so far that there's a land bridge. No, I'm sorry, I'm trying to be funny a little bit and just be out of line, but it's a classical conditioning procedure, right? So, if we're developing a new reinforcer, so if we have a neutral stimulus and we're going to pair it with a stimulus that isn't neutral, that's an unconditioned stimulus, right? So, we're going to pair this neutral stimulus with an unconditioned stimulus and this neutral stimulus will soon become a conditioned stimulus if you do your work right, okay? So, now this conditioned stimulus takes on some of the properties and don't tell Skinner I said it that way because it's completely wrong, but it's going to take on some, it's have some of the similar properties, it's going to have some of the similar effects on behavior that this unconditioned stimulus did, all right? It's not exactly the same, there's a lot of nuance here and I'm bastardizing an entire field down into like one second sentence, but I just don't judge me too much. So, we have this conditioned stimulus which is now a reinforcer, right? So, sure, you could take another stimulus, another neutral stimulus and pair it with this one, okay? And that's called secondary level conditioning. If you did it again, it would be tertiary level conditioning, here's the problem. It doesn't hold much value for the organism. You can do it, there's a fair amount of evidence supporting secondary level conditioning. So, I'm talking classical conditioning now. So, you take the neutral stimulus, you pair it with an unconditioned stimulus, you develop a conditioned stimulus. Now, we're going to take a neutral stimulus and pair it with that new conditioned stimulus and we're going to develop the second conditioned stimulus up here, or sorry, this one becomes the second conditioned stimulus. That secondary conditioning, tertiary, we're bringing that to a whole new level, the evidence just starts to get really wonky as you get further away from that original unconditioned stimulus. I don't have a really good answer for you as to why, without getting into a lot of conjecture about some biology. Wow, that's an interesting way to say biology. So, it was biology there for you. So, about getting into biology, we just know that based on the empirical literature from non-humans and humans alike, that you really do need to try to pair any new stimulus with an unconditioned reinforcer. Part of the reason, I think, is that when you start to get into motivating operations and things like that, they're going to start losing their, these neutral stimuli that become conditioned stimuli, they're going to start losing their effect because, oh man, I wasn't going to get into the Rescorla-Wagner model, but I have to. Did you catch that? Go back and read Rescorla-Wagner. Please, just go to classical conditioning, read Rescorla-Wagner. Understand that conditioning is actually about predictability. Okay, does the conditioned stimulus happen? Does it basically predict that the unconditioned stimulus is going to occur? Again, go back to Rescorla-Wagner, understand it as you start to get further away from that unconditioned stimulus, the probability of that stimulus predicting the unconditioned stimulus is largely gone. Okay, and it'll hold behavior for a little while, but it's not going to hold it for a long time. So you have to keep reintroducing that unconditioned stimulus, keep repairing it. All right, so I know I'm sitting here talking about classical conditioning, like, but I had an operate question that was about, or it was about reinforcement and operate conditioning, and I just wanted to know why those reinforcers work the way they did, and they can't do this and can't do that. And you're answering me with all sorts of stuff about Pavlov and Rescorla-Wagner. Yep. It's all tied together, folks. There isn't really a separation between classical and operate conditioning and pragmatics, I mean, in a real sense, because they're all interlinked, right? They're just different types of reinforcement or just different types of conditioning that's happening to you as an organism. So remember that. They're not, he's just like, I'm going to own the use up and conditioning. Congratulations, and you did respond to conditioning to do it. Anyway, so sorry, they all interlinked, they all related to each other. So yep, I am telling you to go back to your book, maybe go back to some of our videos and look up some of the stuff on classical conditioning. I think that'll help you a little bit. Secondary and tertiary conditioning is your reasoning. Sharon, Sharon, Sophia, whatever it is. Thank you very much for your question. Please do ask more and I will try to be a little less snarky next time, or not. We haven't quite figured out what reinforces us here at Psychor, but we know one thing's for certain that you could probably maybe possibly do some reinforcement for us by liking, subscribing, and sharing. It might keep the videos coming because who knows, it's a pretty damn thin schedule that we're on and who knows when we're going to reach that extinction break point and it just starts to go downhill. I don't know when that's going to happen. So prevent it, please.


lower level tech i still want to play with containers and build apps and deploy them but i maybe don't want to be sitting in the command line all the time so podman desktop makes it very approachable podman desktop also just like podman runs on linux windows and mac so we also can get fedora users basically by a podman desktop so again just relating it to or there you can you tell i was a little spicy about being told what does that have to do with fedora um the other relationship here with fedora and podman desktop and podman is um podman is run in our open qa for fedora and even though i don't think it's in one of the core packages but it's still considered a package that will you know stop a release if it's broken it's really important that we have a functioning podman when we do a release because so many things depend on fedora core os having functioning podman so we're actually looking right now and i've been talking with adam williamson about adding some tests to the podman tests in open qa to make sure that podman desktop works because when podman desktop has a problem it might have a problem that finds a bug that just the just the standard testing that they do right now wouldn't catch so okay so now the next level of abstraction so these are the the layers of abstraction that we talked about before so the next level and yes i would caveat i'm not an expert i'm still learning especially the kubernetes stuff so kubernetes is let's make a fake super computer i don't know how accurate that is but that's how i think about it and basically you're just taking each one of those blocks where you have the host operating system the container runtime the containers and you're just multiplying them and you're calling each one a node so you can scale an app up or down based on demand you get all sorts of different services from kubernetes you can cluster together different things but it's basically building a fake super computer of all fake computers that somewhere sit on hardware you don't know where the hardware is you don't think about the hardware so again it's just another you just think about going up a layer cake right it's sort of the thing on the top okay so what does this kubernetes thing have to do with podman desktop and podman um the idea is you start with a container you're building an app you're running podman desktop locally you're playing around you might not even building an app my main use case for using podman and podman desktop is running pen pot with which is a ui design tool and i like running it locally because i have all the files locally i'm not relying on a hosting provider or anything i own my materials i i really like that so i like to run it locally using podman um and it's not i didn't write the app i'm just running it um there's two ways when you start getting more complex apps you might have multiple containers an app you might have a container for the front end a container for the back end container for the database um um docker has something called docker compose that lets you group uh containers together into larger applications but it's not really compatible with kubernetes um there's also what podman does is it has the concept of it creates a pod using a format that is compatible with kubernetes so if you do things like there's two options here there's the blue box at the top and the purple box at the bottom if you go the purple way it's sort of easier to get to kubernetes because it's already formatted that way if you are working with an app that uses a docker compose and pen pot would be an example they ship with a docker compose file um podman and podman desktop can convert it to kubernetes format which you then can deploy to kubernetes and once you go into kubernetes you have different levels of things you can do um open shift local mini cube um k3s kind these are examples of really scaled down versions of kubernetes that don't have most of the services you would have in a full blown cluster but they let you have a local kubernetes environment that you can play around with to see how your application would work in that sort of environment um and then you have things like open shift and of course i have open shift on here we're for red hat i mean come on but you can do things like manage services you can push out to red hat open shift and be like hey red hat i'm just working on this app i don't want to do the system and thing i don't want to do cluster admin you keep it running and i'll pay you so you can you can have that option just pay somebody to do that stuff and i'm just focusing on the app so once you you build containers in a way that you can deploy it out you get the benefits of being able to scale you get the benefits of i have this awesome app i want to focus on the app the whole scaling and and multiple locations like i just i don't want to work on the complex stuff i just want that provided to me as a service if you run it on kubernetes you get that kind of stuff and a lot of hosting providers are kubernetes providers so it's something that there's a rich marketplace that you can go and find a provider to do that so that's sort of the whole ecosystem and podman desktop has plugins that will let you push to kubernetes and that is the thing i'm going to attempt to demo but to a local kind so let me get to okay so and it's funny um podman and i think other container engines too has this thing where it comes up with a name and i've been having trouble with my machine because of assorted issues it came up with the name hopeful panini so i and it actually ended up working when it came up with the name so i don't know what's up with that but here well when you start podman desktop you kind of get i have the open shift local plugin loaded so it talks about that this is the podman that i have this is the dashboard so i actually have a lot of things running on here i can show you real quick um where is it it's i can go in so this is a compose so it's like a bunch of different containers that were generated by a compose it's not potified because i tried to potify it and it was some network issue and i just didn't want to play with it but um i can open up the front end container and then this is you can see a local host i'm not cheating i'm not cheating right um this is actually running on the system using podman desktop and i can go in like i have the fedora character library in here and i can just sit here and work on penpot and it's all on my local machine i do this a lot on trips like this because i can work on stuff when i'm on the plane it's awesome and then once i'm off the plane i can upload it somewhere it's very nice but anyway so i have that but let's get back to our hopeful guy so hopeful panini i'm going to hit play and that's going to start the container it's just a like a it worked it's a very simple um web thing it works yay okay now this is just a container it's not a pod or anything like that it's just a plain container so what i'm going to do is i'm going to select it and we have a feature called podify and it takes the container and it generates cube yaml for it and it makes a pod so i'm going to hit here it's going to create a pod with this um i'll call it hopeful panini pod it's a nice alliteration all right now i have hopeful panini pod and you can see here oh sorry i didn't delete my other demo stuff that's all right so you have hopeful panini pod and you can see it's running on podman if i go on this list then i do hopeful you'll see what it did is it took the original container and it stopped it and it made a copy of it and it put it inside a pod and it called it hopeful panini podified so now if i go to it and i open browser yeah it works okay so now the last trick i'm going to do hopefully to work is i am actually going to deploy it to kubernetes so let me just show you what i mean by kubernetes here so there's something called kind it stands for kind kind or kubernetes in docker but you know it's running on podman right now and um it's it's basically a little a very small version of kubernetes um that is running locally on my machine and you can see how where it's running here so i'm going to deploy to that so i'm going to take again i'm going to type hopeful and i'm very hopeful this will work so i'm going to call it yeah hopeful panini pod to kind and it's on the kind cluster it's going to all right i'm going to hit deploy is it working yep oh it's already running we okay so then i'm going to go to my list of pods and you can see where did it go is it this one i think it's one of these but i don't remember what i named it but anyway so you can see that it's running with the tag it's running in the kind cluster and if i do um i think it's uh cube control get pods you can see that it's running so just to verify um so yeah that is just one example of what you can do with podman desktop um i have a bunch of stuff in here the thing that i one of the things i wanted to demo that unfortunately i broke um my blog is on dreamhost and i'm not happy with them right now and it's a wordpress so what i've been working on and i'm hoping to do a tutorial on it soon is i took um i basically containerized wordpress and i made it so it will generate a static site so i'm going to run a wordpress container locally and use the nice wordpress ui to write my blog and upload the images and all that stuff and then generate static html from it and then i'm going to have like a git commit thing where like a post commit hook where it pushes out to a github um and do my blog that way is a static because like number one like wordpress gets hacked a lot um number two i'm not happy with dreamhost and i don't like being stuck with them um and uh it's it's a fun project but i did something to it and it broke and i can't remember how to fix it but you can do little projects like that and that's one of the things that i have in here um and i'm trying you can grab images like i can show pulling an image let's pull a really good one i hear it's nice you can just type fedora it'll look for it it'll pull it down it'll add it to your library um yeah i don't know i guess what else does anybody have questions was anybody hoping to hear something today that i didn't cover what do you think about my um my big f somebody's got to have opinions on the f you just pronounced it okay in this city the ports come up with all right so q u hello q u a y is key as in k e y um and paul karmier will dispute that fact and but i will dispute it back there's no there's no q in irish it's it's key it's key it's not quay i o it's key so tell all the red hatters it's key not quay but but how do you spell it as quailga because there's no q oh i don't know what it isn't as quailga so see it's not really a q but it's a key yeah yeah tell paul karmier that paul paul paul and the founder of quay i o keeps in its quay and it's key just pointing it out there i love the f as well can we get another f's for another parts of journey in fedora like server um so where would you see server fitting in so server cloud and all the other things right where do you see them fitting in what what do you think definitely not on this f uh at least not in the middle but on the upper one as well as um i guess we we can start with the server instead of desktop and go the same way that makes sense actually have a separate effort but you got it you got to let it you can't force the f this wasn't originally an upside down l and then it became an f and it was like but you have you have to you can't force it it's just got anyway sorry right grow naturally thank you well come on somebody has opinions about this are we apathetic about it are we agreeing with it i'm not a developer i'm a technical writer but um my pod man um i have a text file with commands and little explanations so i mean it's certainly more helpful than that yeah that's i'm a visual thinker so i just find it nice to have all my stuff there because i'll i'll do a little project and then i'll like not have time and i'll come back to it and having it right there it's very nice yeah no and your demo was great and it's i'm certainly gonna look it up now it's like i said it's an order of times better than my text file of copy paste commands i should put this up um we have podman desktop dot i o and we also have podman dot i o um i do want to mention that ashlyn knocks who also was one of the lead developers on the new fedore project that org did the work for podman dot i o as well and we followed a very similar process um and it's github.com slash containers slash podmandas desktop so if you want to join in we're an open community it's an open source project we would love to have you and if you have any feedback we'd love to hear it any other questions ideas jokes no hey oh here we go christen this might be a little left field but we'll see so i don't use Kubernetes but i do use a lot of podman at home to solve hostings uh and obviously i'm just doing that by logging into machine running podman the deployment that you showed that i really like that idea of being able to just push things from my machine that i'm working on to the rest of the house but it's not kubernetes right what are the other deployment options i might have so i can't speak to the support we have right now for this in podman desktop however there is a podman remote that you could use so for example you could set up a home server this is this is what i was telling matthew today after his thing is like we got to do this and we got to make this a thing um you can set up coro s on a system and you know it has podman on it and you can do from your local system podman remote and push the containers to that system now i don't i i don't want to say that we can definitely support it in podman desktop yet i think i saw somebody had a hack to do it but it's not definitely something i want to try to get on the roadmap but generally just from the command line you can do that okay and i think it's a good middle ground you know and if you're doing some kind of home network thing yeah you don't need to do kubernetes unless you're really hard for getting rebuilt yeah but yeah there's there's definitely options i know the other thing is if you did something like we have something um called developer sandbox red hat developer sandbox and it's free it doesn't cost anything it's an online kubernetes cluster you know it's not like super power or anything i mean it's a free account but you can deploy stuff to that too and podman desktop has a plugin for that so you know i could have demoed that today i chose not to um because i don't know i just wanted to do kind but um that is another option like if you just wanted to play with kubernetes but you weren't really sure it's something that you don't have to deploy your own thing so yeah i wouldn't mind playing with kubernetes a bit more but in this case my use case is can i make it easy to manage the home stuff yeah that doesn't work there but it's still useful information yeah yeah no that's a fantastic question thank you we good time for one more yeah this is actually like more of a comment and first of all thank you um great presentation very informative um just with the super computer thing i i don't mean to be like you know like super computer is a term i know and it means i don't know it just it just got stuck in my head like maybe distributed operating system yes you know what that is much better and if i give this talk again i'm going to use that phrase because that's really what it is awesome i love it okay no that's brilliant all right thanks everybody i want to take one more picture too today we'll be talking about suey suey's being said chair about his things about uh the topic so first of all when i i've been in the linux space for quite some time min fedora contributor since 2013 and then since 2016 suey package and well use that as well um so let's start from the very basic what's suey why we're talking about this it's a dropping replacement of i3wm uh dropping is the definition of the project that does not mean that is actually dropping nowadays it's way closer to that idea at least but it's not like perfectly dropping in some very edge cases why have it at all because it's for weyland so i3 did not wanted to migrate to from x11 to weyland uh i'm not entirely sure if they changed their mind in between but back in 2016 they were like nope we are x11 we are targeting that platform we have a lot of code specific for x11 therefore we don't care about this new thing uh that hopefully uh will change everything but maybe it will not it's based on wl routes uh so effectively they uh the the suey developers wrote also a weyland compositor at the time there was uh don't remember the name of the genome one but they did not want it to do to use that one uh because they believe that it was bloated and not up to the level that they were expecting so they wrote one from scratch uh with the idea of creating a very small implementation which at the moment i think it's around 60 000 lines which is not that much to be a weyland compositor but to be fully compliant with all the extension that weyland has and had at the time the first comment was in august 2015 so we are at the eight year mark uh from suey now and interestingly enough we have it packaged since february 2016 in fedora and the first release they had uh upstream was in march 2016 so effectively we can say that fedora was probably the the distribution that has been had uh heading suey for the longest period of time and i have to say that i have been using suey for why sometime because i packaged it a couple of weeks after i moved to suey so it was not very stable at the time i used to also have i3 installed because well it tended to crash version 0.0 but still uh it grew very well and over time it became very very stable now the history between fedora and suey has i would say three big parts the first one is what happened before fedora 38 then 38 and then 39 in future so before 38 there were multiple people that had their own spins or remixes based on the specific versions i had mine as well i think i published officially so i had it mine based on classic fedora since 2016 then in 2017 probably i moved it to rpm os3 i published it on a git repo but never commented too much about it because it was basically my version of fedora and then a couple of years ago i published it also with the blog post and telling a little bit to many people what actually was trying to do and that kind of things and in the same way other people had tried to solve the same issue so in may 2022 we decided in a bunch of people to create an official spin for fedora 37 for suey that was the initial idea but it did not happen uh it did not happen because we didn't we did not we were not very clear with ourselves on what exactly wanted to put in that spin what way if it should have been a very basic spin or a more complete spin who was our target user and so on so we used a little bit more time than the fedora 37 really cycle allowed us to do so we ended up with fedora 38 so in fedora 38 we proposed the fedora's way spin change that's also a link it does not feel like one but um you can then find the the slides in in scada i'll upload them there and you can click a lot of things in the slides and this change uh was about two artifacts the first one was the creation of the fedora's wise pin and to be specific the biggest change between you know fedora was station and uh the swice pin is around the packages so the packages we ended up with are obviously the suey packages so suey suey bg idol unlock which are the very basic suey packages that you can have uh danced for notification demon uh food for the terminal and that was kind of a long discussion because we have a lot of different terminals but well in the end you only have to pick one so uh slurping dream to do screen screenshots so the first one allows you to select an area on wayland and the second one to screenshot an area on wayland i am v for the viewing images country for a dynamic output configurator mpv for uh media player tuner for file manager and stdm and stdm x11 for the login manager now we'll be talking a little bit more about the last one but as you can see from the list we opted for a fairly complete version of the distribution in the sense that we are providing the majority of tools that a person might be using there is also firefox it's not in the list but uh it's there as well and all of them or all of them except the last one um are wayland specific so for instance foot uh it's a wayland terminal emulator i am v same thing so whatever we could choose between the next 11 native program and a wayland native program we opted for the wayland one the other thing that uh we proposed in the same change was fedora sericea now a couple of comments on this first of all the name the pronunciation i've seen that many people struggle with it is either sericea or sericea based on the kind of latin you want to use uh classic latin would be sericea ecclesiastic latin uh would be sericea i use the latter because i'm italian in italian schools used to study ecclesiastic latin not classic latin but uh either would be correct the reason is that fedora sericea or sericea comes from terminalia sericea which is a plant and plant's names are pronounced in latin so why is the terminalia sericea first of all because sericea started with s in the same way uh that s why it does and uh so it was like a nice thing the second aspect is that terminalia sericea is a tree west tree is a tree so we found that similarity as well uh also uh it's the common name would be a silver leaf which was also one of the options of what then became silver blue uh so it was also a nice reference there and if you look at terminalia sericea you will find a lot of similarities with the sway logo and you know the first one is the sway logo and the second one is the wikipedia image of a terminalia sericea just uh mirrored because they photographed it and the other side but um as you can see there are a lot of similarities so we thought that that was a good thing and therefore we opted for uh this thing also speaking about logos we also got a logo and this is thanks to Emma Kinney uh which is part of the fedora design team and she was very patient with us uh with all of the changes that we asked them asked her multiple times and so we also have a logo that is also very similar to the previous two images uh that we have seen but uh obviously in the fedora way now uh we also worked a little bit on website things uh in the fedora 38 time frame so first of all we managed to create the spin page it's a little bit weird because until fedora 38 effectively uh well until fedora 37 all spins had a page on spins dot fedora project to talk in fedora 38 some spin moved uh or the new spins started to have pages on the new website uh so we moved uh we went directly in that path uh and then i think that uh now every spin will move there as well so we tried to already be on the new website just to avoid the double creation of pages then we also had the fedora 38 page uh on the website as well i'm not sure how many derivatives or editions have the page or had the page at the time but for the same reason as before we tried to already adopt the new standard because it was also easier for us and also we created some documentation around this there are still a lot of things to document mostly because because sericea and sway specifically um are wayland only which means that for instance if you have an nvidia card things might be a little bit more complex uh now hopefully in the next few releases everything will become smoother and even nvidia drivers will work perfectly i really hope that but in the meantime it's you know can be a little bit rougher there so for fedora 39 we proposed one change and then we inherited one uh which is always good um the change that we proposed got approved and implemented and i think is real since three four days ago uh row height build so it should work have not yet tried on my laptop because i did not want it to break two days before post them uh before flock uh but still it's sericea xorg less the idea here is that looking at our three of dependencies we are still importing xorg which is not very good for um sway that you know in theory should be xorg less and the reason for that is that we are using a stdm x11 or we used to and by moving to stdm wayland sway we can actually drop completely the xorg dependency so this is what we have done and now we have the builds without xorg which is always also better because there were a bunch of weird bugs uh in the logging page due to some not perfect configuration of xorg which we thought didn't really cared about because all the rest were worked without xorg so um we also fixed a little bit the user experience there as well the other change that we got but we did not develop so it's always nice because you know you get it for free is the os 3 native container uh change which is i think driven by calling walter uh and uh other fedoras uh people uh so now you can actually download fedora sericea uh directly from a docker uh repositories or image repository so now for fedora 40 we start to have some ideas uh those are not like written in stone kind of ideas it's more like yeah we have thought about those kind of things uh i've discussed it with a couple of people uh but nothing is written in stones there and the first one is the unified core mode uh so i think in fedora 39 uh silver blue and uh keynote are going to move to uh this unified core mode which basically is the new suggested way to create rpm os 3 images the classic way is now deprecated uh we are still using the classic way so it would make sense to actually move to the non-deprecated way sooner than later and it should not be a huge change uh mostly because due to the fact that in fedora 39 uh silver blue and keynote are already doing it if they are going to be successful and i really hope that they are we will just have to copy whatever they they have done uh in the previous release so it should be something reasonably easy to do and the other thing uh that we have been discussing even though there is no clear consensus on anything exactly around us is more flock box and this is more on the city chair side and uh the this wise been and the reason is that for instance i'm not very happy about having firefox in the base image uh i don't like it to be there uh also because on how uh firefox depends on ffm peg and a very specific version of ffm peg which has some limits and how the rpm os 3 behaves um with ffm pegs substitution of packages um which makes everything a little bit more complex so i hope personally to be able to move to uh maybe firefox and other applications in flatbacks i think it would make more sense uh but i also understand that at the moment is not something that is probably going to happen for fedora 40 maybe it will happen later uh but still adds something i'm thinking about and even here i would expect silver blue to be the first one to move to flatbacks many many applications before we actually uh do the thing we are a very small group of people doing this and also we are active in other parts of fedora and we have other daily jobs as well so in the end we tend to be a little bit trailing on changes is like oh we are seeing a very interesting change in silver blue uh let's see how they are going to implement how is going for them if it's going to be successful successful for them then we are also going to do the same thing uh so that we have a little bit less burden there so um are there questions uh i was just wondering what would you say was your biggest challenge in bringing up a new spin so the change proposal part i suppose is kind of planning and sorting out what needs to be done but then actually implementing it were there any big challenges that you faced yeah yeah so uh well first of all the change itself i would say it's mostly three things one is uh comms so effectively groups of things one is the kickstart for the swice pin and the third one is the rpm os 3 part uh of the build of the three the most problematic one has been the rpm os 3 part and the reason is that at the moment we don't have that many rpm os 3 editions of fedora uh so the process is not really very documented and it's also not very straightforward i think that we did changes on three or four different git repos to actually get those images properly built and uh tagged and shipped as you would imagine uh them to be well for instance kickstarter it was just one file in one repo done well and one reference to that file but in the same repo and and that's it so effectively that part was a little bit more complex also because at the moment there are some uh i think there are five artifacts that are delivered as rpm os 3 uh some of them are built in a certain way others are built in a different way so it was not that easy to just say oh uh let's speak how uh iot is done and then do the same because actually iot is slightly different so we ended up picking i think kinoid copying what they were doing and then trying a couple of times to make things working properly cool maybe just like a slightly simpler question i have used sway on fedora but it wasn't from the spin does it ship then with some like basic key mappings like pull up like different applications or is it just the default ones it's just the default ones in the sense that we have thought about doing also the configurations sway configuration way and way bar configurations and is very very close to the upstream ones we have thought about changing them uh much and then we decided not to uh mostly because we did not have good ideas on how to improve them uh so it was like well if we get some someone from the fedora ui uh xp uh x team that tells us oh you should do this and that okay we can do that but we are engineers so uh not not the best kind of people to to make those decisions and also i think that the reality is that 99. something percent of sway users will have their own configurations that was going to be my follow-up i think most people just pull that in and yeah yeah because it's highly personal like to each developer yeah yeah and that is also the reason why we're at the beginning thinking about uh providing a version uh mostly in the sericea part there pmo s3 part without any application or very close to it uh because the idea was i since everyone wanted a different term in a different image viewer and so on why should we make a choice uh can't we just ship something that the base part it works for everyone and then everyone can build on top of it then we decided to be a little bit more user friendly than that uh but still it's fairly easy to to put your own applications and for instance uh for me it was a new thing imv i used to use fee but in reality they are so similar that i moved to imv fairly quickly okay thank you thank you and there are also a bunch of uh links uh here and i will upload the slides on uh sked so that you can click stuff oh i i didn't know i was waiting for somebody to do an introduction or do i start all right okay that makes it easier i mean ideally people can join from outside but since this was just approved on friday and i just announced it today i think the odds of someone actually watching it are going to be relatively low but yeah like i said i mean i poked a few specific people and i announced it but i you know that was a couple hours ago so it's early enough in north america still the no no rush um all right so the this is going to be incredibly informal um so uh i have a couple of slides but the idea behind this is mostly to get some like minded people in the same room um and talk about what we're trying to do um and uh hopefully move from there um so some of this is also around uh sigs uh we've been trying to a combination of reviving some old sigs creating some new ones um and uh because the a lot of the old ai and machine learning sigs were activity less um so we were trying to revive some of that um the um there's been a renewed at least a recently a renewed effort to try and get the more the heterogeneous compute stuff in fedora um in particular um there's momentum around the amd's rock m stack um there's question of whether that should be the same sig whether it shouldn't be um sorry because this was just accepted on friday um i did not have a whole lot of time to prepare um so there's like i said that's going on is rock m uh we've got several packages um approved i'm not sure we're going to hit it before i don't think we're going to finish before uh fedora 39 branches um but i mean i'm always up for being surprised in that area um one of the the targets is to have enough of rock m so that we can have accelerated pie torch running on fedora um and i think there's some other work being done on particularly blender um to try and get blenders uh functionality for accelerators working with amd hardware um there are some very early plans around trying to get pie torch uh packaged in fedora um they're i mean it's it's early enough that the the few things that need to be done um are mostly in fedora discourse instance like one thing i wanted to get i don't know if anyone here has feedback for um there's been there's been some uh discussion on how to do communication um i requested a matrix channel um an irc given the number of people who have chatted in that it's either not known or nobody wanted it in the first place um i'm unclear does anyone have any thoughts on is matrix even something something people you know still want i mean there's no one in irc either it's just a it's dead and has been it's being recorded i'll call out red headers anyways right so there are people at red hat who have fedora counselor involved in fedora um who there's an internal slack ai channel that people post on where they could just post this stuff on the public one or in either the chat or i have been you know gently nudging um for a while i don't know i think more gently nudging would yeah but i mean that's that's for the internal stuff i don't think everyone here is i don't mind they're being an internal thing but a lot of that internal stuff could be brought out to there and i think that will help and then once that will make it not feel dead and then people will feel like it's a place to me but other people who are not red headers i'm not blaming you if you are a red header who should be called out here yeah i don't but other than the two of us i don't think i see anyone who's been a regular on the ai slack channel um but yeah um i will then drop my mic and let somebody else respond it seems like a lot of silence so it's either people don't care a whole lot or i mean there's no violent objection um or one of the things that i've honestly i i didn't come up with it i don't remember who did um of fedora being a duocracy you know it's only going to happen if you put boots on the ground and actually do it and if no one stops you then it gets done yeah that that sounds something yeah that sounds like something i think robin would say but um yeah i guess i don't think i remember caring from somewhere but it's been long enough i don't remember where so uh i guess we'll just kind of keep going with that um the other one has been a bit around and this is a some of a larger discussion around mailing list versus discourse um i think the current plan is to get rid of the mailing list that isn't being used and just kind of keep things on discourse because that seems to be the direction things are heading in um regardless of what anyone feels about mailing lists there are practicalities involved um that i think is really had really pushed me that direction it's just it's the maintenance burden of mailman on the info folks um so if there's no i have the thoughts i there seems to be more activity on discourse than there is uh in matrix at least within for the the aiml stuff um one of the the other things that the i didn't make a slide for it um so how many folks are interested in more of the aiml stuff versus the heterogeneous compute and anyone the other way around more interested in the other the more like the the accelerated blender um that kind of stuff or not just uh you know rock m uh like entails one api would fit into that as well um there has been some question around whether they should be the same sig or different sigs so i'm just trying to get information for that um i don't know who would lead who's going to well that's always the question this is who's going to put the time into into running all of it um i don't think we have an answer for that but the voices who most wanted to see them separate are not able to be here so the silence in this room does not necessarily make consensus yeah like yep sorry yeah i just i don't really care i just don't want there to be two small groups that are never able to find a time where they can both get together never find enough people to do anything when if everybody would make one combined group there would be better yeah and so is there's just more i think a little more discussion to be had because there was one person in particular who wanted to see them separate i don't think anyone else cared so it's going to be honestly i think it's going to be up on him if he wants to lead a separate group then i'm not going to stop him um see uh there's more stuff of you know is this are there other things that folks are interested in these are the things that came to my mind first in terms of you know both the ai machine learning and the the heterogeneous compute some of the stuff is close to another's one api is quite frankly a ways away from being packageable in fedora um there's stuff that needs to happen upstream before that's something that could even go into the repose so that's further out um like i said rock m hopefully we will have enough to run pie torch on by the time fedora 40 releases at least at the rate we're going um and pie torch is an ongoing uh discussion there is quite a bit of work to be done there in terms of dependency packaging in terms of questions around how we can do it what we can support um you know whether you know whether we like it or not nvidia is the 800 pound gorilla um when it comes to the scientific computing um but the way they license their software it's not something we can distribute in the fedora repose so um you know can we build things in such a way that you could just install part of it from like rpm fusion or have directions so that you could download and do it yourself there are there are a lot of these questions that have not been answered yet they're kind of on the list of stuff to do for pie torch do you know how far off their the driver open source driver they release was supposed to be gp computing focused in i yeah it depends on which part my it's with my experience with working with nvidia stack for um aiml the driver is not the problem um the biggest hurdle that i've always had is the the codnn the the neural network specific stuff that's built on top of kuda that has the most stringent requirements on you have to have you know some version some range of version of gcc some range version of um glibc and all that kind of stuff um where i don't think i've ever the times i've looked at it you can't find those in the same release of fedora that's currently supported if that makes any sense so the problem with like pie torch and whatnot on nvidia at least in fedora it's not the driver part it's the c u it's the kuda to a certain extent but the c u dnn um stuff that's built that's the neural network specific stuff that's built on top of kuda does that answer your part of your question so okay thank you i some of this stuff is possible we could you could ship that here's a container or a container for somewhere someone had drivers probably harder to deal with that way the i mean there's always there are ways um relatively simple ways to people can install the the closed source drivers um on fedora the someone had responded to one of the congress one of the discourse posts recently that um like there used to be a way to do it so basically the something called nvidia docker or docker nvidia i don't remember which way it was but basically it was a mechanism through which you could expose the gpu to the container and then you could have all the proprietary stuff with all the pinned versions of things you need in the container and run that on a system that just had the nvidia binary driver installed um we can't really do docker and fedora anymore so that stopped working but there is a new project that is more generic that should be able to work with podband as far as i know um so that is as far as i know someone is working on it but i don't know all the details so hopefully that's coming that will be a way to do it are there other things that fit into a ml um the heterogeneous compute that people are interested in other than the stuff that i've kind of been talking about these are the things i know of which is because i don't know about it doesn't mean it doesn't exist wait for the can you wait wait for the room do we have an object you're defined for the sake or is this the discovery phase of it more of the discovery phase more it's something that like i said the it's a combination of revival and creating um the the old sigs were dead we're trying to create something new that either replaces or repurposes existing sigs so effectively no i mean that other than what i've talked about the trying to get pi torch to the point where at least it can be accelerated on fedora without having to go to binary blobs so getting to start off at least with rock am i i think it will really help if we have an objective that can evolve over a period of time right so um if we have an objective then you you can attract more people um it need not be set in stone can evolve right so that's one thing the other thing that i wanted i was interested um i mean this again goes back to the offline conversation that we had about the infrastructure for testing some of these stuff so you want to bring that up or um yeah i mean it's there's still a lot of questions um one of the things that has become pretty obvious as we're working to package rock am is that it needs to be tested in an automated way um it's going to be somewhat fragile enough that trying to do all of it manually is not going to end well at least not for my sanity um so there are there is an open question on how we can test that stuff um the whether technically there is an amd gpu available in amazon's cloud that they may or may not allow us access to um i had problems getting to it personally okay i like i don't know it like i had i was very irritated with how difficult it was for me on my personal account to get access to the the instance with the amd gpus and there's still an open question of whether it's good enough for rock am because it's several generations old and isn't on amd's official support list for rock am i thought i saw one that was much was newer just amd they have brand new n video stuff no there was a newer oh really yeah i can't remember which one it was off hand though and i'm too tired i thought it was like a like the v520 is the one that they have i thought which is like no it was yeah it was much larger numbers than that but i don't remember the details okay um but david duncan is here from amazon and if anybody can hook us up it's him okay i mean if there's if we can do this cloud that would be much easier than anything else i can think of because the rest of it like i said there's there's a lot there are open questions on you know what system we would use to test it um my first thought is open qa if we do that is there room you know in the the racks that they use in um in uh in virginia for for fedora infra you know is there funding for the machines that our gpus would be in can we get the gpus to test with is this a good way to route or good route to go there's there's a lot of open questions that i don't have answers to um i think the other thing for kind of connecting this to your list of what other people think things that people are interested in um i note that matt hicks is interested in the open shift data um science kubernetes um gpu computing thing and so having fedora provide a good experience that ties in with you know kubernetes and the cloud for doing computing would probably um be helpful in terms of getting positive attention from our large sponsor to us not that everything's about red hat just that that's a um nicely aligned thing right there yeah well i mean you know appealing speaking surely from a you know pragmatic point of view yes i do work for red hat i don't know anything more than what we're talking about is you know if you want to get funding for something appeal to a sponsor that has money yeah um going completely the other direction a thing i think is interesting is um the like was a micro torch that that peter almanso was talking about which is basically building the models that will then run on like esp 32 or a really tiny microprocessor and i think like that having fedora be an interesting development environment for that would be cool because i i can see cases where i would like like i have a i would like to be able to recognize whether it's a cat or a human going up and down the stairs at night and not turn the light on for the cat because the cat doesn't eat it but the humans do and that's like a that would be kind of a fun little project that probably could fit in that um with some sensor data anyways um but also is probably also zero interest to red hat but yeah would be cool i mean there's some other interesting things that that peter brought up on discussion uh on discourse um about you know some of the open cl stuff um and trying to get it to run on new hardware especially some of the ar 64 things um but for i think for the moment like i said i think the immediate focus is rock m because in terms of stuff that we can realistically do in a short period of time that is it you know it'd be great if open cl stuff works in the future for for acceleration it'd be great if we can get nvidia stuff to work it'd be great if we can get intel stuff to work but for in terms of the stuff that is probably um okay license wise with fedora that probably works that we can get done in a reasonable amount of time we're looking at rock m for the acceleration and then probably pie torch on top of that uh about the open cl it should be already supported but i'm not sure how usable that is for like ai and acceleration i was talking specifically about there was a conversation on discourse about an open cl back end um for pie torch which there is there was an experimental one there was some other support but it's not anything that is there were performance issues there were maintenance issues so i open cl aside it was that specific back end for pie torch i'm sorry i didn't elaborate on what i meant well uh i think we only have a couple of minutes left um if no one has yeah i'm gonna pass the microphone over to jeff um as far as hardware for rock m uh is it an extensive list of gpu's that are supported i wish i had a good answer to that question so i will answer it with what i know um amd's officially published documentation on the gpu's that support rock m there are three or four of them all of which are over two thousand dollars um there are other lists i've seen i know you don't only like that that's just their list um i know one of the other guys who's working on packaging had just got a 7600 uh i think it was a set one of the the lowest end lowest end of the current gen um amd graphics cards i know you can run on other stuff i don't know what the official things are some stuff works some stuff doesn't so long answer i don't really know i wish there was a better list um but i from what i understand amd fully intends to have it work on the stuff going forward so the seven thousand series uh the current seven thousand series of amd gpu's um and going forward i imagine rock m will work on in addition to what it already works on but especially going forward any other questions comments before we wrap up okay well if uh folks are certainly interested in this please uh you know keep an eye on discourse um feel free to ask questions in matrix um if you ever the other questions or want to talk about other things um we have a couple more days feel free to come talk to me um other than that uh yeah i think that's pretty much it thank you all for showing up and adding input


Hi everyone. Happy Saturday. Joe for jasby's casegrapes.com coming at you with that 2019 2020 panini mosaic basketball blaster edition 10 box random team break number two half of a case and We've got an early bird special here If you're one of the first 15 to buy spots straight up like these folks You've got a chance at an extra spot. Let's put them all here and Then this will be a separate dice roll from the names and teams So the name on top after three two and a one gets an extra spot. Good luck one two and three After three times it's gonna be Roger There you go, Raj Eastwood in the chat You get the extra spot And now we can grab everyone's names and assign you a random team Let's roll it and randomize names and teams six and a one lucky seven times one two three four five six and Seventh and final time after seven we've got Jorge down to Anthony I think the boss man was saying Anthony popped by the shop not get a chance to say hi next time all right six and a one seven times for the teams one two three And seven and final time after seven we've got the okay see Thunder down to the Orlando magic All right, Jorge with the thunder flood with the Kaz Andrew with the Kings Leo Leysi Al Chen with the Clippers Jesse with the pistons Andrew with my Lakers Scott with the wizards to Roger with the Knicks Jesse with the rockets human with the pelicans Brian Crouch with the Hawks zoom in with the Mavs your early bird spot Roger Chicago Bulls Mike with the nuggets Mike tower last spot mojo star next to your name Milwaukee Bucks zoom in with the Hornets We got Anthony with the jazz Rhea with the trailblazers then with the Sixers Mike with the heat Matt With the Raptors mark with the gris Nice Jason with the Pacers Leysi Al with the Nets Scott Blackwell with the Suns Barry Roberts With the Warriors Brian Crouch With the Spurs Eastwood with the T Wolves Andrew with the Celtics and then Anthony with the Orlando magic All right, and Remember I marked all those boxes to so we know that they're all from the from the same case This is break number two right here. We're gonna pause the video for just a tiny bit And see if there's gonna be any trades when we come back. We'll have the break stick around All right, welcome back folks. Look at that. There was a deal done Jorge now has Is out of the Thunder spot and now has the T Wolves and now Eastwood Now has the Thunder We'll put T's next to there so you know that they were part of a trade if you're following along at home Try to figure out who draws first blood in this trade. We'll figure that out soon enough Maybe no blood. Maybe a lot of blood. Who knows are you printing? There's all the boxes right here Good luck and a handful of these at a time. All right, good luck everybody as I've said before Good time to start investing in some hoops We got the NBA draft coming up on the 18th. That should be exciting We're gonna start to see like will I don't know we're the Miami Heat gonna draft You know who's gonna be added to that to that NBA finals appearance team Lakers actually have a first round pick. Who are they? Who are they gonna get? They got to get someone that they could maybe develop over the next year or two. I mean the Mavericks Mavericks have a pick sure they do first round pick. Who are the Mavs gonna add to that squad? Who's gonna run with Luca Dodgers? Think a lot of interesting questions here Because that helps that helps the value of the guys in this draft class Like who are like who are the grays gonna get? Who are the pelicans gonna get? Let's actually try the 2020 NBA draft Let's look at the draft order here. Oh, and I was wondering where the draft was gonna be It's gonna be held in the ESPN studios in Connecticut Bristol. All right, so the pelicans have the 13th pick. That's an interesting pick And the pelicans you got you obviously have Zion you got Brandon Ingram on that squad That's that's actually a pretty decent team Zion Brandon Ingram through holiday Josh Hart off the bench former Laker Lonzo could could be could be a player run that offense Now could they add another piece with the 13th pick? Maybe something that could even eat that can make Zion even more More dangerous All right, there's the final print out right here. Thanks everyone for getting in appreciate it So a lot of things can happen next Wednesday. That'll like that'll affect this draft class And that'll affect the The 2020 2021 product Here's our first John Morant NBA debut John Morant just a base version And that'll be for Mark B and the Grizzlies It's Trey young or the Hawks pick Hawks have a have the sixth overall pick So Trey young plus last year's picks Like Kam Reddish right there and Deandre Hunter. I mean that could be sent be a lot of young pieces that could That could maybe emerge around the same time. Boom. That's a good-looking team There's Steph Curry And there's Tyler here. What what's what are the Warriors gonna do with that number two pick? They got a healthy clay Hopefully healthy Steph Curry And then all of a sudden bang they got the number two pick they draft someone Or do they trade that pick to get some immediate help? Not help but just immediate an immediate addition to the team. Oh Nice silver John Morant from mosaic basketball Nice that's what we want to see Mark B With the Grizzlies nice There's Mark right there Yeah, I would I would maybe get that that bad boy graded and by the time you get it back It might be three quarters of the way through the season and then and he might be just balling out The value would be a lot greater should be nice And I've got rookie scripts taco fall. He may make some noise this season. It's upcoming season Andrew Andrew B this time Brothers I think are hitting right here taco fall autograph for Andrew The tahti and My rivals the Celtics the Rockets may have a completely different team Or the clipper. What are the clippers gonna do? There's world champion town Horton Tucker. He might be a great guy off the bench. They've maybe they'll develop that guy Lakers do you need to get a little younger? Miami's got to make maybe make some Resign some people another few boxes here So good start to random team two folks We do have another break of this another half case break in the store right now jaskies case breaks calm We could run this back from a fresh case Remember the first 15 spots sold Are eligible for an extra spot. So be one of the 15 spots sold you can do the math I don't know how the math works right 29 20 we start with 29 spots because we're reserving one for the giveaway So whatever 29 minus 15 is There are a lot of teams that could That's a that's that's why the NBA is a lot of fun. I feel like there's so much player movement could be a good and bad thing but It is interesting because teams aren't like well, you know, if I mean if they're smart enough They they can make some moves pretty quickly and change the fortunes of a team Timberwolves number one overall pick could they get a franchise changing player in addition to Some excellent players like carlton and towns and even d'Angelo Russell Jared culver could make a comeback Not a comeback, but he can just continue involving as a in his second year to be a big addition Bulls have the number four picks Cavs have the number five big they've been they've been stockpiling top picks for a little bit I mean that's all got a click at some point a couple teams new new coaches Few teams and new coaches they want to make their mark. What's Doc Rivers going to do in Philadelphia? Darryl Maury in the front office Are they gonna shake things up or can do they think they could make Simmons and Make Simmons and Embiid work. All right another few boxes to go Good luck everybody. The clippers gonna do with Paul Joy. I've heard I've heard some Paul George trade rumors Which would be kind of rough Clippers gave up a lot of picks. Oh and a Zion base So that will go to zoom in nice that's mostly dust on the top loader, but there you go nice Zion There's a Yanis base card That'll go to the Bucks. That'll be from Mike Tower It's green auto Porter, Jr. Kevin Porter, Jr. An NBA debut mosaic pattern Kendrick Nun He had a nice rookie year Mike Bobby. Hopefully he keeps it going NBA debut Cam Reddish I feel like the Hawks underperformed last year and they've got a lot of youngsters That can evolve at the same time. Like I said, they got the sixth overall pick Cam Reddish plus the Andre Hunter plus Trey Young plus Collins out there Couple things go the right way That'd be a pretty dangerous team. Let's pop open a few more boxes for left Another half case in the storage at these case breaks calm one final box left right there Call of Duty game looks terrifying Black Ops Cold War he's prescription drug commercials driving crazy because it They'll name the symptoms and then like it kind of gets in your head. You're like, yeah, is that shortness of breath? Yeah, is that is that restless leg syndrome? Makes you think you have it Actually have this Yeah, I do feel those symptoms a few more boxes. Good luck everyone This is random team at number two 2019-2020 panini mosaic basketball Smark is smart green silver Trey young and a green Zion Williamson for zoom in with a cleaner Top loader here. All right Pretty nice Can these guys be traded with the number two pick from Golden State to get someone else? We'll see yes, we'll find out and we'll find out next week Jalen Noel green. Oh and another Zion right here. Look at that There's I on base Was all that up other one for zoom in The Jalen Noel will go to Jorge and the T wolves and be a debut Kendrick Nunn green going to Mike and the heat De Montessabona's green for the Pacers It'll be for Jason Lucas Samanich green and an MBA debut Zion Williamson On a run of zions here All right, and the final box here in break number two. All right tenth box. Good luck More in the store on jazby's case breaks calm check it out Hi bowman rookie green for Barry Roberts and the Warriors Kobe white base for the bulls. That's for Eastwood and his early bird spot Duncan Robinson green and Dylan Windler in the back there. There you have it ladies and gentlemen pretty Pretty fun break here got the green Zion and that silver John Morant pretty solid stuff more in the store Check it out on jazby's case breaks calm. I'm Joe. I'll see you next time for the next one. Bye. Bye