We're ready to go. I'm talking more digital hardware design. And for those of you that have been staying here for the previous talk, you have now a perfect introduction that kind of leads up to this talk. So I'm by kind of when I started at the computers, I started at software. And I've been doing software for a very long time. And then just at the end of my studies at university, I came to hardware. And then when you first have a look at hardware design, you obviously do kind of a VHDL, a very long course at university. And they show you something like that. And that's how hardware design kind of looks at first thing. So you have this very strict model. So this is a waterfall model. So you do your requirement specs. You have a couple hundred pages. You do the word or Excel or something like that. And then you do your design. You have your architects there. Then you have a couple of people that do implementation. And that's actually outsourced many times to some cheaper countries. Because as we've seen before, kind of writing very long in VHDL can be extremely boring. And then we have verification. So you make sure everything actually works. And in the end, you have maintenance. That's kind of your problem stick with you forever and ever. And so this is kind of the very simple version. If you're kind of more than one person, you usually split that up. So you have kind of one part here. And then one V-like other part where you do this verification engineering kind of in parallel to your regular software development. So you start off with a lot of PDFs or work documents. And then you work your way through to the implementation process. And this is kind of really done in parallel usually. Because yeah, why? We'll see that in a bit. So now coming from the hardware of software world, kind of that's how the flashy software development processes look these days. You have all those agile methods. You have very short sprints. You have a very kind of dynamic process that you do. You don't start with a 200 or 500 page PDF. And then you don't see each other again for the next couple of months. And then you meet again to do the final integration. So the things looks different. Actually, it is different. And also kind of to note, in the end, we had kind of maintenance at the last point. If you look at that, and that's just a real random picture I found on the internet, there is party at the end. So if that's not a good reason to have a look at why those processes are different and what we possibly can take from one of each other. So why have been or are hardware development processes the way they are?  And that's what we've seen before. Making Asics is expensive. It's really expensive. And you want to be first time right. So if you do a tape out, you want to make sure that it actually works. And that's actually, seems to be funny. Sorry, you said first time right, and then there was this exciting thing in the picture. OK, exciting. So first time right doesn't seem to go together. Let's see. No. So the thing is, if you're doing Asics like stuff that costs you real huge amounts of money to get produced and fabricated, there you want to make sure that you're actually your first table is correct. Because otherwise you have just spent a lot of time and actually even more money on that. So that's why we have this very strict flow. Thing is, we're in a world of FPGAs now more and more. And they're coming closer to you when you look at Intel putting them closer to your own processor, putting them in data centers. For now you don't even have to buy a huge FPGA board anymore. You can just rent them by the hour at Amazon or Microsoft. So this makes this kind of hardware development much more accessible. And so the question I'll have a look at here is, can we treat hardware development that actually targets Asics or reprogrammable software a bit more like software design? So we have a look at three things. And they're probably formulated a bit to upset people. So first thing is, be less confident in the quality you get. Second is, iterate, iterate, and iterate again. And third is, we should have a look at where we can actually make a difference in the things we do. First of all, yeah, don't worry, be happy. If you look at this very gut feeling graph, which is showing up here but not there, yeah. So this is source gut feeling, but it's actually more or less right from experience. So if you do a bit of testing, you say, OK, yeah, it compiles. It's probably going to work. Then you do a bit of testing. And at some point in time, you're pretty confident that things work out. The thing is, if you have a software, you just run it. And if it reasonably performs reasonably well, you say, OK, let's ship that to our beta customers or the paying customers. OK, or they're just going to come back to us. But the thing is, if you want to produce an ASIC that costs you a couple million, you want to be really, really sure that you're actually delivering a good quality product. So if you're doing software development, you can be OK with less confidence in your quality.   So why can't we do that? Can FPGAs, speaking in the kind of ASIC terms, enables you cheap re-spins. You can just reprogram, re-flash your FPGA, and that's about all you need to invest there. So you don't need to be first-time, right? You can go with this 80-20 approach. So OK, the question that comes up and that kind of makes this approach still a bit harder or a bit more difficult to execute at the moment is, what does a testing approach for a pure FPGA targeting system look like? So if you Google around and if you have a look at the standard tutorials, either they leave out testing completely, just as we've been seeing before. And that's actually not just here. It's also at university courses. We talk a lot about design, but not that much about testing and verification. So how do you do actually verification and testing for an FPGA targeting thing? So there is not that much information out there yet. So this is a place where we need to get a bit more active, where we kind of also publish our best practices. Because I'm sure in this room there is many people that actually have experience doing that. And there is actually some software tools that help with that. But there is not that much knowledge about that. So this is something we should change. Just to mention one simple example, there is, for example, CoCoDB, which is a test bench kind of generating framework written in Python, which is more actually targeted at FPGA design. It gives you very nice productivity. That's one example that people should know more about. But this 80-20 approach is the prerequisite, the required thing that you need to have if you want to go more to a software-like development flow. And if you look at software development flows, they work. And they have been kind of moving in this direction, this agile direction, because you want to iterate. You want to be very fast in your trials and errors. You don't want to start with one specification, but you want to go in small steps. And actually, if you look at kind of learning and how learning works, you're much more productive if you get very fast feedback. Imagine if you're at university or been at school somewhere, if you have been writing a test and just get the results back after three months, you're not going to learn that much from it as if you're kind of one-to-one with instruction to get immediate feedback. So the sooner you get feedback, the more value you have and the more you learn. And that's why kind of software development is more fun for people, usually, because you see quicker results. Yeah, then having a look at hardware, and we say, okay, let's go with this very nice iterative flow. And actually, I've seen that in Brussels on Friday. Everybody who has been using a synthesis tool flow knows kind of the main time you spend actually designing is waiting for the synthesis to finish. It's kind of not uncommon at all for have a synthesis for a larger FPGA to take an hour, two or three.  So FPGAs give us cheap iterations, but they don't yet give us fast iterations. And as we said, that's what we want for productivity. So I've seen a couple of C-GaZi guys around. There they are. I think they're heading in this direction. So intelligence ideas. So we want to get feedback as soon as we can, meaning if you type, you want to get feedback. If you want to do, if you do a bit more static analysis, linting, that's all stuff that can be done at much earlier stages. You don't need a full place in route and synthesis for that in most cases. And IDEs that we can get today, most of them, are still stuck in the 80s, I think. And they don't usually give us feedback. They just have some syntax highlighting and actually are able to call with one button some IDE, some synthesis tool. And we also need more automation. And every large company, also in the hardware design, of course, uses continuous integration. Continuous delivery is, I think, for them pretty far off. But anyways, the nice thing about continuous integration, and I'll give you a hint how that looks a bit in the future, nice side effect. You also get reproducible results. And that's always a good thing. Talking about IDEs, I just installed the 2016.1 version of an IDE from Mentor Graphics. It's called HDL Editor, or HDL Designer. And well, the user interface usually always looks like tickle and crap, but you're just going to get over that if you do hardware design, which is fine as long as it's usable. And then it asked me this very nice question, do you want to set up version control? I said, yes, that's what I want. And they gave me kind of those options. And as I said, this is the 2016.1 version of this product. It's kind of not, yeah. The user interface doesn't look like the software is like that. So there is much more effort needed in this regard. Last point, differentiate where it matters most. If we look at software, we see a lot of standardization. We see built tools being standardized. How many different compilers are you using these days? You probably use either GCC, LVM, or if you're targeting Windows, maybe using Microsoft Visual Studio. But that's about it for compilers that we usually care about. If you look at hardware designs, how many synthesis tools do you know of? How many different front ends that just parse your language in subtler different ways? So the question is, can we actually find common ground somewhere and actually differentiate where we can make a difference? And I found this very nice picture of a keyboard that was kind of modified to, I think a CNC drilling machine. But yeah, it's still a standard keyboard anyways. Good. So question is, what does make your HDL project better? Is it really the build system? Is it the way you include your dependencies? Or if you get dependencies from the web somewhere, the way how you include those? Is it really that much the choice of your programming language, especially if you want to have people contribute to it? Is it your coding style? Does it make that much of a difference if you're indent by three or four or five spaces? Oh yes, it does, I see. Is it your FIFO implementation that makes a difference in your whole project? Maybe it is. There are some cases where all that makes a huge difference. But the point is, in many projects, it just gets in your way. You want to do some coding, you want to build your stuff and you want to do it in a language which is reasonably sane to use. So this is all questions that I obviously don't have an easy answer with. And it's kind of always hard to get over personal kind of preferences, which I have very strong ones about many things. But what you see, if you work together, it's not that important anymore if you're indent by three or four spaces. Just make it consistent in some way. And that's actually what we see with a lot of newer programming languages, if you look at, for example, Rust or Python or very modern PHP or so. They have kind of a standard coding style by now, which you're obviously not required to follow, but they say kind of just take that one and you're going to be reasonably fine. Or for build systems, just use automake or cmake and you're going to be reasonably well off. It's probably not going to be the perfect solution. That's going to be the solution that makes you entirely happy, but it gets the job done and it gets the job done quickly. So for HDL, there is no such build system out there at the moment, which is kind of established over a wide range of people, just like automake or cmake are. There are a couple of attempts in this direction. One I am personally a tiny bit involved on the slides that don't move, okay, is Fuse Sock, which is a project by Olof Kinkren. And this is actually kind of a build system. So you specify some some any like files. So this is the VHDL, the Verilog files I need for this component. That's the dependencies that has, and essentially it packages all up together, builds the dependency tree, and puts that out into project files that Vivado or Simplify or other tools can actually make use of. Nice thing about that. Now you want to drop in your other 5-fold implementation. You just say, okay, take this core, put it in there, and it already knows how to build it actually, because what you do today is you go to, for example, OpenCourse, download some Verilog file, put them in there, manually put them in your Vivado or other kind of project files, and make sharing very hard. Speak a common language is probably more tricky. System Verilog and VHDL are here. They're probably here to stay. They will be amended by some other tools, but I don't think they will go away. So, and that's, I think, usually compare it a bit to like C in a programming world. It's not a nice language. It has a lot of flaws, but it will stay and will stay for foreseeable future. And actually the huge benefit those standard languages have is you have a lot of common ground without us. It makes it easy for others to get started, because you don't need to learn something new, a complete new programming language to get started on a project. So kind of the trade-off you have to make is how many people do I want to get involved, versus is it really making me that more productive to use another language? And something I've been coming across writing JavaScript is they have this very nice feature. They also have this arcane JavaScript language, which everybody says is full of bugs and flaws and weird things, but they still are able to evolve it. They're not replacing it entirely, and they evolve it in a way that is kind of backward compatible. So they do essentially a source-to-source compilation of the newer features, and get them down to the older features. That's what they call polyfills. And that's for HTML as well. So isn't there something that we can do so? For example, Sister Veriloc has nice features, but if you look at the tool support, it's just not there because every tool has a lot of different parses for Sister Veriloc, just like Vivado has two different parses that parses to Veriloc. So you can use one construct that works in simulation, but not in synthesis. That's just annoying, and this won't get any better any time soon. So can't we have a kind of source-to-source compiler that says we go to the common denominator and go from there? Yeah, that's where the kind of the advertisement part starts. Right now, and I mentioned it a bit before, you get your course usually from places like OpenCourse. And OpenCourse is there because it helps you collaborate. It helps you find other projects and integrate them in your own to make a difference where you can make the most of your time. So OpenCourse, unfortunately, is kind of in hibernation mode, and there is actually no science that this will change, unfortunately. So a group of people that were rather active at OpenCourse and around the open-risk community that published their open-risk CPU there got together and said, this is something we need to change. And we need to change this, and we can't, unfortunately, change OpenCourse itself. So we launched a library course, which is a site with just a similar target, so giving you access to very nice IP course, making you aware of the quality there are, and teaching you a bit how to do coding and how to get started in this ecosystem. And it's online now, it works. It's still in its early stages. So there is a couple of things that we want to improve in the future. So what we always get is, I have now this project listing of 10 FIFOs, which one should I use? Which one is high quality? Which one, do others tell me, is actually useful? So we're looking at improving or adding more quality metrics to the site. And those can be machine generated, of course, but they also can be user generated. That would be like reviews and things like that. And one site I think that got that pretty right is a other repository site from a totally different area. It's Puppet Forge. And what they have is make it easy for you to say, okay, I used this stuff at production and other things like that to get very useful but kind of quick feedback from users. So that's what we're trying to integrate. And the other thing is, if you ever have worked with Node.js or modern PHP with a composer or other things like that, it's very easy to install dependencies. You don't need to go some site, copy a zip file and move them somewhere. You just type one command line at one thing to your configuration file and be done. So we're looking if we can have a look at using this repository site and integrate them into build systems like FuseSoc. And there's one thing I just briefly mentioned and I won't go into much detail. There is also a continuous integration setup much like Travis's. So we're currently kind of trying out things in this regard. If you don't want to know more, there is actually a site here and there's also a presentation linked from one of the Jenkins core developers that got involved in that and kind of is helping us out there to make testing and compiling hardware designs in the cloud or on your own PC much more easy. So what things to do for now, add your project to LibreCourse itself. You can do it right now if you have one. There is Planet LibreCourse, which is a block planet, gives you already very nice overview of some hardware projects that are out there. So if you have your own block that you want to be listed there, let me know. And finally, the last one, there is documentation how to get started working on the LibreCourse site itself. It's open source, it's hosted a GitHub and we're always welcome for new contributors. Last announcement, this FOSDEM is usually kind of set to the software and we see the hardware interest grows just by how packed this room is. There is Orconf 2017. This was a rather small conference that we have been growing now to over 100 people now. The next edition will be at Hampton Bridge in the UK, somewhere in the middle where I've never been. September 8 to 10, Orconf.org, it's especially about the digital hardware design and it's a very good place to talk to people and get very helpful insights on what the hardware community is doing at the moment. Thanks for your attendance and time for questions, at least a bit. Open source, I know the copy left concept does not work for HCL code and it's a problem that me and a couple of people are in the middle of it. So do I have an answer for the licensing question? And the licensing question essentially is we know that permissive licenses work, so that's why we have a lot of MIT, usually licensed cores around. We also know that copy left licenses are still written in a way that is not entirely clear what they mean to hardware designs. I don't have an answer to that. I've been talking to many people and we at 44-Dashlet actually. Runs, LibreCores have been in contact with many people and we're trying to figure this out so if you already have an idea in this direction come talk to me. Essentially what things are looking like, so GPLv3 was written with hardware kind of in their mind. It's not clear if that actually what they intended it to be is actually working out. So let's see. So but we definitely see a need for a copy left license but the problem is how do you find boundaries of a copy left license in a hardware design and until that's figured out I think the safest way is stay permissive if you want people to make sure that they're able to use it. Everything else you need to probably amend the license or make explicitly clear in your licensing what you mean where your copy left should have a boundary. Yes, there is the CERN Open Hardware License. The thing is digital hardware designs and I think we might have a couple more additions to that. Chip designs are a bit special because they're kind of special from the legal framework that you can use which is different from PCB designs or 3D prints and things like that. So there is some overlap in this CERN Open Hardware License with a license that would work perfectly fine for digital hardware designs. It's not a perfect fit yet. So we're looking how to kind of get this figured out. Any other question? Thank you.


This is a regular scheduled meeting of the town of Berlin. We have one application tonight. It's an application by Vermont State Employees' Credit Union. It's for major site plan review associated with renovations to the interior and some exterior improvements. We have with us here from the board, Pauli Muerti, Karla DeWiesel. I'm Chair Bob Warnick. We have John Pinerich and we're supposed to have Tour joining right now. And Tour Nelson joining us now. Who will be speaking on behalf of the applicant? Do you want to swear people in? I will after this one, who's? Okay. So I imagine all of us may talk at one time or another, but I'm Brian Lane Karnas with the both engineering and I'll be, we're the civil design engineer and I'll be doing the most of the presenting. Paul, you want to introduce yourself? Sure. Paul Simon, landscape architect representing VSECU on this project. Steve Avery, you want to introduce yourself? Yeah, I'm Steve Avery in the VP of Facilities with the Credit Union. Steve Kredell, would you introduce yourself? Sure. Yeah, I'm Steve Kredell. I'm an architect with the GBA architecture and planning. Thank you. I don't think this is a conflict, but I do just want to disclose that I've worked with the Department of Financial Regulation. I'm a trainer for the Banking Division, so we do regulate VSECU. I don't really see a conflict, but I just want any interest to pull disclosure. Does anyone object to Carla participating as a board member? I think there's a conflict of interest. Would appear not. Mr. Schoen. Yes. I just want to friendly announce an interest of disclosure that I'm a member of the VSECU. Yeah, I'm also a member. And I am, too. I'm not. That would include most of us, I think. Yeah. So thank you. Yeah, I am also a member, so that's a conflict at all. Okay, very good. Let me square in those that intend to give testimony. Are there any, is anybody here not representing either VSECU? I'm a member of the board, I don't think so. We're all on one team or another. I believe so, yeah. Please raise your right hand. We tend to give testimony and do you swear to tell the truth and let the truth matter before this board tonight? Under penalty is a perjury. I do. You do. Thank you. Brian, why don't you kick it off, please? Great. Here's just, is everyone seeing my screen here? Yes. Okay. Here's just a general overhead photo of the location. So for anyone who's not familiar, this is the existing VSECU branch building here at the intersection of State Route 62 and Paintern Pike across from the fire department elementary school, Park and Ride. I imagine a lot of folks drove through this intersection to get to the meeting tonight. Yeah. The project generally is majority in internal renovation. The almost entire inside of the building is created as part of this project. But the changes to the exterior are relatively minor. There's the 92 square foot addition in this location. I remember last time not everyone could see my cursor. So I will also draw in red or whatever card that asks. Yep, that's terrible. One second. There we go. In this location. So right now there's basically this vestibule tower in the front. There's two canopies in the front side. So this easterly is supposed to be closed. And then this addition here is just another vestibule addition with storefront glass. In order to accommodate that little addition, we're removing two parking spaces just here to the south of it and expanding the sort of sidewalk plaza outside in the front of the building. And then the other major change, existing drive-through lanes are gonna be widened slightly to both make it a little easier to drive through them than it is currently and also to accommodate some updated equipment. And so as part of that expansion, the canopies will need to be replaced because the columns and such are gonna be the place for the new drive-through lanes. Also associated with that is a very small expansion of the existing impervious on the north side of the site just to make sure we have adequate space to have folks that get over here and aren't going through the ATM, be able to go around about having to wait or conflict with people who are accessing the drive-through lanes. And then proposing some updates to the landscaping and then a new five foot wide concrete sidewalk, road right away along the frontage, along with new connector sidewalk and crossing to the existing accessible curb ramp, as well as a couple of bike racks here out in the front. So any questions from the board on the project generally? No, just in your general text, you talk on page two or five, the couple of page, you talk about the parking or the parking spaces. What were you saying there? Okay, so yes, the dimensional requirements. So based on the C street dimensional requirements in the town center district, small amount of the existing parking that is within 10 feet of the property line. So these little light dash lines are 10 foot off the line. So these spaces down here in this corner. Are slightly closer than 10 feet to the property line. At worst, it's seven and a half feet down here. So that's an existing condition that was built with the regional development when the requirements weren't different than they are now. We're not changing anything about the pavement over on this side of the site. So we're just requesting that that existing condition be approved as part of an existing non-conforming lot. So it could be recognized and then approved or not. Yeah, I mean, essentially we're not changing it. So we're not looking for approval, but in recognition of the current dimensional requirements, we just wanted to point out that there is some existing encroachment, but we're not doing anything with that. Questions? We can't really pull it in without affecting the traveling for the building. Tom, did you have a comment you wanted to make? You know, at this time? Not now, Mr. Chair. Does the member of the board have any questions for Brian with general nature? I don't. Okay, in that case, let's proceed with your testimony, specifically with regard to the project standards, the zoning standards, and then the architectural standards. Great. So I mean, I think we've addressed the dimensional standards, but you know, as noted in the table in our cover letter, it meets all the dimensional standards of the district with the exception of that existing parking that we just talked about. So in terms of the architectural standards, the existing building meets the district architectural standards pretty well, and really in the exterior, there are some pretty minor changes. So I'll just kind of give you an overview of the changes, then I'll just let Steve Pradel from the GBA go through the architectural standards. So I think that probably, I mean, there is a small addition, I don't know, let me zoom in on the front. So this is the West elevation, which is facing the street. So the major kind of things that will look different about the building, one, the canopy roof is being replaced with a flat roof canopy with skylights. The current canopy roof is pitched similar to the existing building. The windows are being replaced in their existing condition, but instead of having the sort of arched top, they'll have straight tops. This entrance is being closed and replaced with a trellis with plantings that will climb up the side. And then the addition here, a storefront single story vestibule addition on the front of the building. But otherwise things are remaining the same, the main facade, oh, I'm sorry. And the clock is to be removed from the top of the tower. So existing, there's another smaller roof for the clock up on top of the entry tower here. But otherwise, the main facade materials of brick and stone with some precast concrete bending are remaining the same, the existing standing seam metal roof is going to stay the same to just be sort of patched and where the clock is being removed. So, yeah, Steve, I don't know if you wanna, if you wanna go through the architectural standards, if you had anything else to say about the building design? Well, I think you touched on it, Brian. We're really doing very little changes to what's already there. We're not changing from the existing masonry base and the masonry field. And really the primary roof is still gonna be the metal, the standing seam metal roof. And we're trying to, with the drive-through lane, trying to minimize the attention to that roof in the back, have it more focused on the building and sort of at the front of the site. Yes, sir? I don't see any deviation from this. So, Steve, our town center district is relatively new zoning regulations. You probably reviewed it. One of the things that it calls for is iconic structures. And really, your clock is probably the most iconic structure currently in the town center. So I'm wondering why you thought it was necessary to remove it? And if there was something possibly to put in instead? Really, the reason to, really, and just it was the clock and the tower, we thought it was too much. First of all, we're losing a lot of, a big part of what we're doing with this building is improving it thermally, putting new windows in taking the inside out or taking the sheetrock off the inside and reinstallating from the exterior, not from the exterior. Excuse me. And removing more roof space from here that's really, that's leaky, it's just gonna help the thermal improvement of the building. And another goal here is we're trying to go completely electric and get away from fossil fuels and it's gonna help us get there. And so those were really some of the decisions that drove it. And we thought in terms of sort of the iconic sort of part of the zoning requirement that that front tower being a quarter turn from the bulk of the building still was gonna maintain its prominence. How much higher is the power above your proposed roof line here now? The existing car? The existing clock, yes. Is it above, how much higher above the existing roof line? It's probably another, let you know. You can take a quick drive in the Google car. Yeah. The perspective is a bit skewed here but this is what it looks like currently. I'm not an architect but I pretend to be a lot of things in life. So is there something faux that you could put in its place? To me it feels like an add-on and so I really feel like just having that tower, the quarter turn entry piece, that's gonna be iconic and have a real presence and not be diminished at all by not having the clock. So that roof will be not peaked anymore? It will be peaked, it's still peaked again. Okay. You can essentially just take that whole clock and just move it down. Take the hat off the clock and put it down on top of the roof. Exactly. So we are adding this trellis feature on this side which is also gonna kind of serve to draw attention and add another sort of human scale feature to the tower that is gonna remain on the front of the building and it's gonna help define this side of the entry better as the place where folks are supposed to be going in and out of the bank. There's like one issue we're trying to, right now there's two entryways in the lobby and then you go into the lobby and you can either go left or to the right. And so in this new use of the lobby space is really, what is now the lobby space is gonna start to be the member space inside so you walk through the vestige. So there's only one entryway and it's come from the side we're looking at here. And so as we sort to start to make that treat each side differently, I think it's just gonna make the tower piece more prominent. You don't have a color rendering of that, do you? I can't see. Pretty much what you're looking at without the clock. Okay. The other thing that will be different from here is you can see those little arches that are there. So it's masonry on the front of the building. So it's the CMU masonry at the base, brick masonry in the middle and then those little arches are made from the stucco. And so we're gonna square those off. Just, it feels like the arch that either should have been the masonry to feel like it's actually arching over the opening or we just go straight across. You just think it's gonna be a much cleaner look. A question by the board. A little questions on that. You had other- Actually, can I just- Yes, go ahead. The only thing I'm thinking is if there's something, I'm wondering if there's something else that could be done on the other side other than the trellis only because the summer, your only time, it's only gonna be nice in the summer. Like, I don't know, some kind of art, I don't know, something that would could last throughout the year. And I don't know what that would be, but it's something for thought, I guess. So the best feel there, you can see too that there's gonna be wood screening. So we're trying to bring natural materials to that too. So there's the wood screening over the entryway on the upper portion and wood screening that the- That the- Trellis. Trellis, yeah, it's gonna be a wood trellis there. And so we are gonna have the same language on each side. And so during the summertime, yeah, it'll be fully green, but then you'll still see the- There's still gonna be a relation between the left side and the right side in the winter. Okay, just- Another question by members of the board. Tom. Steve, we're just- This architecture is very new to all of us, right? So we play a dangerous game when we go on the internet or we look at pictures of buildings. And so what if that, if the greenery was actually like a metal sculpture, a silver metal sculpture rather than a plant material? I'm just throwing stuff out because I don't know what I'm talking about. Well, I mean, one of the big things that there's a lot of glass. And so we could consider, you know, with the trellis doing some other type of screening for sure. Well, for example- Yeah, for example. But for example- The way you're saying it could be some sort of either metal screening or the wood screening that we have. Part of what we're doing here is trying to keep the, keep it from overheating inside because right now it gets pretty hot inside that space. And so the trellis is gonna sort of mediate because a lot of daylight coming in through there. And so we're doing double duty here. The trellis is helping to heat out in the summertime. And then it also has these raking light where it can get some glare inside. So it actually helps with the daylighting too. So it's not as intense in the, you know, in the late evenings or in the mornings. And so any type of screen, essentially that the plants that we're using there, it's a screen material. So we could look at a different type of screening. And I'd have to think about what that is, whether it's a wood or a metal or, I mean, if something, if it was a piece of artwork, we'd really have to talk with, that'd be associated with the accredited union. And so there's all these other things that come into that in terms of it starts to become signage. And so I think that opens up a whole other discussion. Okay. Paul's raising you, Sam. There is a product I think we could explore that doesn't take away from the architecture. It's called, I mean, it's, if you go to greenscreen.com, they sell product that's a metal kind of stainless steel kind of thing that's, and there's different types, but there's some that get placed in front of the panels so that it keeps the architecture the same and yet it is still separate from the building that will allow the plants to grow up and behind. And it does have a good appeal to it in the wintertime because they come in different sizes. You can get wire, you can get a harder type frame type. So it could be an option instead of doing a wood trellis to do one of those type trellises that is in front of the wood facade that doesn't take away from the architecture. Yeah, Paul, that could work really well. You good? Yeah, I mean, I think I was thinking more on, you were thinking more along the lines of some kind of, but I think in either way, I'm not sure I care whether it's water metal because it's still dead in the winter, but that's, I think it's a nice feature. I'm just trying to think of how it would. Well, that sounds like that might be a possibility. Yeah, definitely, definitely. Yeah, I mean, I think it sounds, I'm not good unless I can see something. So, can Paul or somebody share something with the board? Brian, if you can pull up greenscreen.com, that will provide some of it. My only worry there is that the roof overhangs a little bit, so maintenance tools require watering a little bit of the plant material in that spot. Well, it's gonna anyway, right? I mean, with the trellis, yeah. Yeah. I have to admit, I do like the clock myself. I know. Maybe you should do a member poll about the clock. Yeah. You can click on gallery, Brian, and at the top, they'll show a bunch of different pictures you can scroll through, or just click on explore, and then there's the, you can view all. Yeah, explore at the top, and then view all. Going very slowly. Yes. And then transmitting to you very slowly. So, there's a million different styles, so we could choose one that still displays the architecture because what Steve is trying to point out is that we want, when the plant material does die, yeah, one doesn't die, but just goes, hibernates in the, Hibernates, yeah. Dormant. In the wintertime, right? We'll wanna be able to see the similarities of the two sides of the building. Thanks, Doc. Yeah. Well, it looks like all kinds of different choices. Yeah. Is this an outrageous expense poll in your experience? Not for the size that we're looking at here. The nice thing about it is that you can now pick something a little more vigorous, like a wisteria vine. Those are pretty, they grow quickly. They grow tall, but they're super strong. So, sometimes with wood trellises, they pull them apart. Something like this, a little bit stronger. We'll be able to hold that up well. The other thing you can do too, to add some color, you can do like a mandavilla vine, which grows really fast, but it's kind of like an annual.  That's one thing we haven't picked yet, because we're still looking at what the trellis type is so that we could select a climbing vine. Another one that's good is Climatis. That's a good vine. Oh, yeah. Climatis is pretty good and it's a medium grower. It's not as fast as the wisteria, but it would do pretty well as well. Well, yeah, it sounds like maybe the metal would be a good option that I can't really tell from these pictures, but I should look on my phone. Yeah. I don't know if I can make this bigger. Unfortunately, it doesn't wanna let me make it much bigger. And I don't think I would speak for the board. I don't think that we wanna pick it for you. Just maybe if you guys give it some thought and hear our concern. What's the website again, Paul? GreenSpace. GreenScreen.com. Do you wanna pursue this further? I think we're good. I mean, I'm good with that. I guess, I mean, I guess the question is, go ahead, Paul. Oh, this is Brian. For me, the question for the board is, are you asking us to redesign the facade at this point? I know we've talked about some options and trying to make something more iconic. I honestly struggle a little bit myself because sort of the wording around iconic features in the zoning language is building features that use unique materials, textures, colors and forms can highlight entrances and help create a memorable design. With a sort of minor change to the outside like this, I wonder how it is to try and really create something like truly iconic. I honestly, in my personal aesthetic opinion, I think like warm wood in front of the windows is actually gonna be really nice in the winter and no offense to anyone. But if you ask me, I think that clock tower looks like something they've pulled off of a strip on New Jersey and put on the top of the building. I mean, it's just, I'm really only saying that to highlight that a lot of this is an aesthetic difference. And so direction on the board of what do you need us to do would be useful. Well, I was just thinking, this is a, you have an opportunity here to make improvements, visual improvements to the building.  That's probably one of the best abilities of the district. Yeah, it is.  I don't want to go crazy. I mean, I think, well, for the reason Paul said, if it works well also with the plant material that you want to use, I think the metal is an option. Yeah. But I'm not, I mean, the wood is good too, I think. Yeah, just so yeah. How does the board want to proceed with this? I mean, the applicant has made a presentation. You want to provide different guidance or are you asking for another recommendation? You know, we, they got to move forward. We got to move forward. I would just ask the applicant to maybe take some time, talk amongst yourselves and just explore this idea and maybe come with a similar trellis, but maybe be out of a metal material that can hold a stronger plant material and see if that makes sense to you folks as well as the board. I have to, you know, with all due respect. And I'm a civil engineer, so I don't appreciate any of this stuff. What was it wrong with what they presented? I didn't get was, what do we want different? Where it started was a multi-seasonal effect where with the greenery, you really only have it storing the growing seeds. That once the plant material dies off, there's really nothing there. And I think by adding the addition of a metal that it could be a contrast there for that season. I believe that's where this was. Yeah, that's where it's really. I would argue that there's, oh, go ahead, Steve. Yeah, I think it's a different, it's looking whether that trellis material or the screen material is wood versus a metal, essentially. And what it looks like without the plants. Well, it tells material on the other side, it's gonna be wood, right? Well, if we change to a metal to hold the plants, then they should be the same on each side. So they should both change. Yes. I mean, what it is not with the trellis in the front here, it's, I mean, right now it's the store front with doors and it has the sort of like a bridge archway, steel archway up above. There was just applique, it's just decoration. And we're just thinking this screening is gonna help make the space much more usable and we think it's gonna look better too. So Steve, correct me if I'm wrong, but you're keeping the windows behind the trellis, right? They're still there. Yep, it's the same. So let me just show you, this is obviously a marketing photo. But this is the facade we're talking about here in the middle. And so what you can picture that this is gonna look like in the winter, it's obviously gonna get dark sooner, it's gonna be lit up a lot more.  You know, to be honest, it's gonna look pretty beautiful in the winter as much as it does in the summer.  There's still gonna be the diffuse light from inside the building and the addition of the wood, which I'm assuming is gonna be like nicely stained and things. So it's not like there's nothing there in the winter. It's just different than it is in the summer. Okay, I'm fine with the wood, that's fine, yeah. All right, in that case, let's move on. Great. So I think the next thing is the second criteria, general standards, oh yeah, general standards there wasn't much for this other floor lighting, no friends were proposing, but so there is a special use standard for drive-thru facilities. Essentially, the drive-thru facility, other than being widened is unchanged from its existing configuration. So it's located to the side and the rear of the building. And so each of these lanes has at least two stacking spaces before you get to this corner here, I think effectively most of them even have three, but it's been in operation here for close to 20 years. And these lanes have provided adequate service for the kind of demand they see without causing traffic problems on paint, or within the site. Unless there are any questions on the drive-thru specifically I can move on to the standards. The traffic flow from that, Brian, is people use and drive-thru, they normally exit via the back exit there onto pipe, what's the name of that road? Yeah, typically, I mean, there's no specific control, it's two-way circulation, oops, it's two-way circulation around the front and the south side of the building. This back here is one-way circulation, but I think my experience is most people go straight out on a paint turn, or like drives, and before they turn on the paint turn pipe. Right, yeah, when the state's not got it all mucked up, I suppose. Questions for the applicant? On the drive-thru?  Yeah, I'll hit outdoor lighting in the site plan standards. I didn't really see any other general standards that were applicable. Okay. But happy to answer questions if you have any. I do not, are the members aboard? Nope. Nope. Great, let's dive into site plan standards. So, as we've discussed, it's very minor changes to the site. The regulations require at least 20 parking spaces based on a retail with high customer turnover, so not more than 40. Right now there's 37 and we're removing two, so we'll end up with 35, which fits within the regulation. All the existing parkings, nine by 18, with a minimum of 22 for aisles for a two-way circulation with the exception of the back here, that's a 19 for aisle one-way. Already surfaced with asphalt and striped. We're showing snow storage around the perimeter of the site outside of the wetland buffer and not piled up in the front so as to affect the site distances along the road. So I think as usual, if they run out of room because we have a heavy snow, they'll need to remove the snow and dispose of it legally. And we don't expect any deliveries other than parcel service type deliveries, which could circulate around the site. And while we're on it, I'll just go through access and circulation and then pause for questions. So no change is proposed to either the existing curb cuts on to pay and turn pipe or pipe drive. This is a 33 foot wide drive. This is a 30 foot wide drive there. They're both two-way circulation. Yeah, like I said, the only one-way section is back here behind the building. We are proposing a new sidewalk along the frontage with pedestrian connection to the site, as well as two bike racks, U-type bicycle racks. And I don't know if the board has seen it, but Steve Avery from BSECU did send me the sidewalk maintenance agreement so that is ready as soon as the select board signs it. Yeah, the chair received today the top of it, Brian, thank you. So I assume it's similar to the others that we have dealt with. It is. What was taken out of the reference to state right away, because this is town right away? Oh, yeah. That's just too simple. Continue, Brian. So you're, if you don't mind. I'm near here, Tom. So Brian and Paul, the sidewalk, Vermont has adopted a complete streets planning design. Do you think the sidewalk here is compliant with that complete streets? You may know, I'm hoping you know more about it than I do. I'm actually not familiar with what you're referencing. Do you have a more specific question or? There's green spaces, requirements for and handicap accessibility and a bunch of things like that, but things about eight or 10 years, the state has approved it. Yeah, so, Tom, if you have something from the state in terms of a cross section of what they would like to see for a complete street along Pain Term Pike, that'd be helpful to our team, I guess. But to answer the first question you had, whether or not it can meet complete streets, Pain Term Pike is awfully wide.  And that means not just cars, but people walking, people biking, right? So we're definitely leaning towards that because we're now providing the pedestrian accommodations in the town center by having the sidewalk. And then again, the road is well wide enough to provide a bike lane for that. But again, it's good to know what the town and the state are looking for specifically there in terms of a design that you're looking towards to envision ahead as a standard to provide the complete streets in a section detail or something. So I know the outfit probably is not familiar with this, but we've gone through a complete rezoning of this area. And so your neighbors to your north, it's been earmarked for high density residential. Oh, south. South. No, north. So towards mob failure. Yeah. Okay, whatever. That's not okay. And so we really see an expansion of the sidewalk to we see expansion of a bike lane through here as well. So have you given any thought to the need of on street parking here then? It'll be a town. It would be a town venture to do that. But does that help your business having on street parking? Well, I don't know that I can maybe Steve Avery could answer that from a business perspective. No lack for parking here. Go ahead, Steve. I see if I needed yourself. Yeah, that's kind of a new one for me. I mean, you know, we love to have plenty of parking for our members. That's convenient and easy to get to. I mean, I don't see you. Initially, I don't see a real advantage to the street parking at this site. I don't see a real advantage to the street parking. Just because we have. We have plenty of parking. On site. So. You know, maybe fast forward. However much time we think, you know, there may be. Identity residential down the street and, you know, more infill development along paying term pipe. Then. You know, maybe things look different at that time. But with how the. I don't see an advantage to it. If anything, it might. For sure to kind of deal with. The intersection. In Laning, you know. Route 62 and paint term fight. And bike drive. Well, Steve Avery, I know you're aware that. The town just completed a $2.2 million sewer project that. Went down. Pain term fight north that. It. Took out one of your pump stations now.  So, so we made, we made that investment for a reason, right? We really made that investment to grow that area. It's just food for thought for, for you folks. That is as the town continues. It's, it's. Planning and growth. If you have any. Any insight that we should consider, you know, please come to the table. Thank you. Relative to the location of the sidewalk. I mean, as, as a designer of a specific site, it's, you know, the sidewalk is there for a reason, which I can, I can, where it is of which I can talk about, but it. It's difficult. When you're designing things on a site by site basis. There's a lot of what we're looking for. I would say that we need to really. Predict or understand the sort of greater sidewalk network that may be created. So. Certainly if you have feedback on where the town would like it to go, we can consider it. There's some things that need to be moved around on the site. If. If it weren't in the location where it's proposed now. between green space between the road and the sidewalk but if that causes too much trouble then. Yeah so the zoning requirements five feet which is which is we meet at this site part of the reason it's there is because of this utility existing utility pole and then if we try to put it on the other side you know on our side of the right of way you know it's needing to relocate the sign in that area it seemed more useful to the town honestly to have it closer to the road but you know like I said we would and also because trying thinking about connection you know if we fit up on our side of the right of way then you do you know a tree and some other things in the way here and you know whether future sidewalk if whether it's developed privately by the town and you know I was thinking you didn't want it to kind of zigzag back and forth across different property furnages so that's what I mean about it being kind of hard to predict what's going to happen on other properties or maybe by the town in the future when when trying to play out sidewalk site by site as we're required to in zoning regulations. Anyway this this this sidewalk is designed to have a green strip of at least five feet between the sidewalk and the pavement of the road. Oh it is. Yes it is. Yeah cross-section would have been helpful to be honest with you. At least I didn't see one. It terminates on the south side short of the that road. What have you got for termination there it just ends in a grass strip or what? Yeah that that is as far as VSCU has control well I mean I understand this is in the right of way but I was assuming that we would not want to build a sidewalk across someone else's right of way frontage so yes you know it would end it would just end in the grass on on either end of VSCU property. Well certainly on the north side it has to end in the grass because you know it goes into another property on the south side. Is that a town road? It's a private road. Okay so um okay well that would explain why you would terminate there. Would be nice to have it go to the road though. What? Would be nice to have it go all the way to the road. Yeah really sure and it should obviously have the necessary taper to come down to the road grade. Is pipe paved? I think just uh you know what I think they paved it all the way back to um fizz bit when they put that in. Yeah so it really should extend in my opinion really should extend down to the paved surface of the pipe drive. Again there's there's some complications there that we're not in control of um you know for instance there's this existing catch basin which is off of VSCU's property um you know and some other things that would have to be coordinated in order to make that happen so um you know again we were we're trying to meet the regulation um in the area that VSCU has control over and um you know if the if the board's going to require. Which catch basin is that? Uh that is a good question uh that I don't know the answer to. It's it's probably it's it's either the town's catch basin or it might be the state's catch basin if it's something that they installed as part of the parking lot or something but I'm not sure. Is there a runoff from the project going through that catch basin? Uh the small amount yeah stuff that gets into this area ends up in that catch basin. It looks to me like there's a line that actually goes right to it. Yeah. Yeah I don't know what that's something that we saw in a survey but I don't know where that originates. Where does the storm water from this site go? Uh some of it does come down some of it uh let's see some of it comes off in the catch basin you know a lot of the stuff on this side of the site ends up along the edge of Pike Drive and down into that catch basin um some of it comes along the front and then comes around to the existing uh storm water detention feature in the back um don't think any of it directly drains because that's all curved yeah so it either comes around and comes down this little stone swale into this catch basin or some of it drains directly on a Pike Drive over here as well no sorry that's coming the other way some of Pike Drive drains onto our site and then down into that catch basin. It looks to me like a fair amount of it drains right down the brain dirt bike. Uh yeah it's not reflected really well in the contours but there is a depression along the front uh so some of it may get to paint turnpike and that that may just be a maintenance issue but um there are shallow swales along the front. Well right now we're talking about sidewalk but I do want to ask more about that storm water I want you don't need a permit from the state right? No it's it's everything's under an acre. Yeah and it's already you're not adding any new in previous area. Uh just a very small in this corner like under 100 square feet in the sidewalk. Yeah okay I guess I'm not aware of any problems with storm water here but I I don't like the fact that we really don't have a clear vision of where the storm water goes. Yeah that may be a part of our bylaws where we don't do sport and water under the site criteria that bothers me. Um okay well you answered my question about the sidewalk which is why you're terminating grass um that catch basin is that what grade is that? Is it great or great? Grade. Is that level with the grass or is that? Yes yep it's it's slightly below the road but it's in the grass. It is below the road level? Yes. So that's graded then? Yeah yeah it's graded to drain into the catch basin as existing yes. Okay so to basically to avoid that one would need to basically come further toward the paint turned back north or the other side one of the other. Yeah you need to move it east or west along along Pike Drive here and reroute this pipe from the catch basin here that's adjacent to the uh parking lot. I mean I think at least the state would be involved in that because it all drains into the route 62 right away. All right um where are we here are you have lost track of where we are? We're about to start landscaping if we're done talking about the sidewalk. I think I think we uh yeah yeah okay um so Paul would you like to run them through their landscaping right left landscaping? Yep so um we basically enhance the site the existing site landscaping there's a there's a very good landscaping along the the east I mean yeah the east side and the west side I guess the two you know if you're looking at the drawing the right side of the drawing and then the back um that are very heavily landscaped. There is a crab apple tree that's existing there that's going to be uh that's dead that that back one that's in darker color that we've we're going to replace. We also added notations to go ahead and prune up a lot of the existing landscape trees that are there. We're adding some birch trees um on the south side and then we're putting in some foundation shrubs and perennials and ground covers surrounding the entire building. We're not placing shrubs that are gonna be too tall or big or you know the important thing for a credit union or a bank is that we don't create areas where people can hide. Specific types of plants that are still aesthetically pleasing but undesirable for hiding like Rosa Rogosa. We don't want to crawl around. It's very prickly so all those pink colored shrubs are the Rosa Rogosa shrubs that will be beautiful and they actually will have color um from you know late spring throughout the summer. So so that those are there and then what we did in the front too is just like the sign the existing uh freestanding sign along the right of way of pain termplike has a little small planting bed already instead of it just being um I guess uh you know vertical with the freestanding sign we went horizontal and created a larger uh planting mass area with shrubs and perennials in the front and we duplicated that um I guess just north so that you know there's no sign on that end but we did another planter and some shrubs and ground cover there. We also landscaped the edges of the vehicular entry to add some ground cover plantings and kept the view nice and open. We're adding a bench what what this does this project is really enhanced pedestrianism having the sidewalk having the connection and the two bike racks and then taking out those two spaces is going to be aesthetically huge because it's really going to promote the pedestrian connection to pain termplike. So I think that's important with the new vestibule so we have a seating bench that's going to be located in the front there as well um and we're just kind of highlighting uh that aesthetic so I'm happy to answer any questions anybody has. Paulie? I was just wondering why you chose not to put some landscaping along pain termpike. Yeah well we are enhancing it um the building's very prominent and architecturally it's close and different than a lot of the other projects we've been working on in Berlin too the the vehicular curb cut to pain termpike is very narrow right so we don't have a long so the the view triangles too to pain termpike as you're coming in and out are important to maintain that view and I believe what we're doing with the building and really like right now the landscape space it's right in front of and surrounding the buildings it's just like red lava rock right now. So what we're doing is is really coloring that up and putting in front of the shrubs we're kind of stepping down terracing down to the ground cover in the front which is going to be I think vinkov yeah vinkovine which will will really provide a nice blanket blanket of additional color so we're really demonstrating a nice view to the architecture the building and and highlighting you know a skirt around the building with some landscaping and we are you know landscaping with shrubs and pernials a bit along the the sidewalk but we believe the view and the bench and you know the pedestrianism in front of the building is going to be important visually. I'd also point out that we can't plant any significant sized trees along the particularly in this area because there's a very significant power line there and it's low and you know this is only about 10 feet from the parking to the power line so what we were trying to avoid was planting trees along here and then having the power company come along and hack half of them off because that would probably be worse than planting no trees at all. Yeah yeah well that makes sense and the power company would. Yeah and they don't have to ask us or you. Questions on landscaping? No I think it's good I think yeah I think it's improvement. Lighting? There we go so site lighting this is really kind of minor changes to the existing site lighting we're not putting in any new pole lights so there's four existing pole lights around the building which they have already downcast LED fixtures but they're modeled here in the photometric plan so we are adding lighting the new lighting or the new canopy that'll be surface mount on the underneath of the canopy as well as there's a couple existing canopies back here that I think these are existing fixtures back here under these canes that are to remain so the light levels on the side are pretty low at this point anyway it's a one foot candle average across the site and you can see that the the area of calculation doesn't include any zeros and it's pretty well limited to the the actual used area of the site we're proposing control with timer and photo cells so photo cells to turn the lights on and the timer to turn the lights off the drive through canopy lights will be turned off at 5 30 p.m. and then the pole lights will be turned off at 11 p.m. we're proposing that the building mounting lights do stay on until all night for for security purposes at the bank I think I may have missed there are some building mounted new building mounted lights on the front to hear these labeled B to replace the the existing ones that are underneath the canopies that are being removed are the fixtures on the poles and the fixtures and the pole fixtures are they being changed so these a fixtures in the back are existing the pole fixtures are existing not to be changed these fixtures a fixtures underneath the canopy are new fixtures are new all right they're new or they just be changed out they'll be new because the ones that are there now are underneath the existing canopies okay the canopies are coming off and they're being replaced with wall packs all right questions on lighting comments on lighting three none signs uh so no no changes are proposed to the signage there's um existing building mounted sign and and the other one out in the front which will remain performance standards I believe you addressed that in your text the roads and the coal and then stormwater treatment um and I'm going back to looking at the text of our application do you know where the stormwater is going here yeah so generally uh as we discussed um you know it runs mostly from the side to the east side torrents pay and turnpike the stuff on the south of the building is collected in this catch basin directed that way um the majority of the pavement on the north runs in a shallow swale it kind of gets deeper as it goes around to the north end of the building there's an existing stormwater detention basin here in the northwest corner of the site which then outlets with an existing outlet into this this wetland behind so because the because the changes to the impervious area here are really minor we're not proposing any changes to the existing stormwater runoff and treatment okay so that that that that a little retention area which collects a fair amount of runoff from the parking lot actually discharges to the weather behind it does yeah okay yeah and there's a there's a real control structure that was all done as part of the development yeah and you're really not changing anything there no the only real change is that small amount of pavement that's being added around the new drive-thru lanes not new but the revised drive-thru lanes we've covered all the stands but we don't have any questions any additional comments you want to make right i know i think that's that's it for our presentation what's there's anyone else in our team that wanted to make any final comments doesn't doesn't appear that way i guess the only thing that leaves us with and i don't want to spend a lot more time on it was the facade and we would beat around the facade and where's the board stand on the facade they they were proposed namely the trellis and the planting you're fine probably yeah very anything john you want to ask i haven't i can't see you far enough away so i don't know if you raise your hand anywhere along the line or not no i didn't actually i was going to say i like the new facade thank you and is tour still there somewhere here i'm sorry yeah do you have any comments or questions uh no no questions i'm good with the facade uh john do you want to say i'm sorry i thought he raised his hand no okay i was ignoring him anyway all right um well there's nothing further for the applicant uh from the board yeah tom you have something i would just like to make one comment i i do appreciate the credit union being in our town you've been good neighbors and good partners and hope our relationship can continue long into the future okay thank you tom um so if you have nothing further brian do it remember your team in that case i'm going to ask the board uh if they're prepared to adjourn this hearing so moved i have a motion for poly to adjourn the hearing portion second second by john beating tour out um we have one again that's right first motion all was in favor of the motion to adjourn the uh one part of the hearing please remember to say aye aye opposed hearing none uh we are adjourned uh thank you very much thank you team brian thank you all thank you for your time we appreciate it have a good evening i just know that um christy was not with us tonight she's not she's gonna do up recording yeah she definitely know that she was going to be here okay um we do have one other item of business we did not get to at the last meeting um i'd like to take care of that some minutes of our meeting i have to do a look it's been long enough to go so if i get one here it is the meetings of august 3rd um i um i had a couple comments that i shared and and christy never got back to me and nobody else on the board um joined in um i um i wanted to um christy to add some information on who the different applicants were um and so if she can't figure that out i've actually figured out most of them uh but you know uh shan clungingham who was he you know he's the engineer for uh larry murk yeah larry and burk so so some of that needs to be discussed otherwise this is just meaningless to look at his names you just not know who they represent yeah um so uh that was one comment i made um uh the other comment i had was uh i just we need to scratch the um uh distance from the b street um this is on the third paragraph on page two again you'd go to my notes but it says it meets the regulations which is nothing you know it does not so that lets me strip it um and uh that was pretty clear of my comments and the only other thing i was going to make a mention of is uh on the motion to approve the previous minutes they were amended and it wasn't noted that there were many as amended so the minor minor thing so uh good night so i would um i would make a i would uh make a motion that uh we approve those minutes subject to those amendments that i made i was like you said in poly did you aren't you supposed to record the whole meeting what they are oh they're all here's i'll second that motion all right thank you um uh it was a discussion of those hearing none all those in favor of the motion to amend the uh minutes uh and to approve the minutes as amended yeah um please say goodbye by saying aye aye aye aye opposed approve the minutes um and i'll work with if you would be talked to christie i'll work with her on whatever it doesn't need to be complete but needs to be more complete than it is yeah um so uh other than that uh uh there's a board want to go into the delivery session on the application tonight we should do that i move that we go into the delivery session second to be made seconded uh by tour um i'll figure that motion please if i say goodbye by saying aye aye aye aye and the board is entering into the delivery session i need to give a basically shut people down here or or it is back okay or it is back um is there any that this has become for this board tonight hearing none um i would entertain a motion to adjourn some minutes okay i'll second polly second uh john has made the motion uh all those in favor of that motion please stand by me and say aye aye aye opposed we are adjourned i thank you all very much so we're on for five tomorrow right well for five tomorrow to deliberate the application and we can do it by zoom okay uh pardon me i just meant making