Hi everybody. It's my great pleasure to welcome you at this webinar on how cities are implementing the concept of the Donut Academy. I'm Duke Holloman's coordinator of the Belgian Think Tank Oikos and co-president of the Green European Foundation. Let me first communicate a practical point. This webinar is translated into French and English as Bible character speaking French, so you can choose your language channel with the buttons at the bottom of your screen to the right. Welcome to each and everyone. This webinar shall be interpreted into English or French and you can choose your language by clicking on the globe icon. The Green European Foundation Transnational Project Cities as Places of Hope in Europe. And with this project we want to focus on cities that are playing a front runner role in the transformation towards a social ecological society, a society that provides a good life for all within planetary boundaries. And the project also allows to develop a more hopeful perspective on Europe and European Union, which is of course more than a union of member states, member states that not always agree, not to mention the Brexit of course. But Europe is also a great and diverse continent in which cities of different sizes and also collaborative networks of cities are at the front of the necessary transformation. Now to put this webinar in a very short time frame. Let's consider the last 15 years. A lot of things have changed within the family with the financial crisis, a bit more than 10 years ago. It became clear that there are progressive and alternative visions for the future, but they were too little elaborated. They were not enough applied to run really convincing. And now this has relatively changed. The concept of planetary boundaries was introduced in 2009 in the Journal of Science, and it really allowed in a systemic and holistic way to understand the human, the planetary boundaries we as humankind have to respect. It was very safe for me personally, but also for a lot of other people. It was not only informative, but almost shocking to learn that. Yes, climate change is very severe and critical, but there are other planetary boundaries think about the collapse of biodiversity, which are maybe even in the worst state. I think this concept gave us a real important insight, but it's to the great credit of thinkers like Kate Robert to combine this so called ecological ceiling with the social foundation with these dimensions arrived from minimum social standards. And of course, between the ceiling and the foundation we have environmentally safe and socially just space. And I think the good news is that the concept of the donut economy is not only well known by a lot of people nowadays. I remember the great interest when Kate came to speak in Ghent and in Brussels for a really large audience, but it has become a real enabling toolbox for a whole range of actors. I think cities are playing a decisive role in its and I'm very happy that Amsterdam and Brussels are among the cities that are taking the lead in Europe, and therefore we are proud and thankful that not only Kate, but also Barbara Trachten, Secretary of the Federalist Government and Marieke van Donink, all the women of the city of Amsterdam have made place in their full agenda to make this webinar happen. So as for the program of today, Kate will first give an introduction, setting the ground, followed by Marieke van Donink and then Barbara Trachten. First we have a short dialogue between the speakers, and then of course there's room for Q&A, so you cannot use a chat, but you can put your questions in the Q&A, and you can also vote for other questions. And the more a vote gets on, a more question gets votes, the higher it's on the list. And so there's more chances I will ask this question to the speakers. So I would say again, thanks all of you for joining, and I'm very happy to give the floor to Kate. Thank you so much, Derek. I mean, I'm really delighted to be here. When I was in Kent with you several years ago, I was talking about doughnut economics, and since then we have really started to put it into practice. So this feels like the perfect moment to return. And with practitioners and say this is what it starts to look like when we do it. I'm going to share my screen. So I want to pick up on what you were just saying that the 21st century has begun with repeated crises from financial meltdown. We live in an era of climate breakdown, and we are all living through COVID lockdown. And I believe these crises show us how deeply interconnected we are with each other, and the rest of the living world. They hit with sharp inequalities of gender and race, of wealth and power, of global north and global south. And I believe they all emerge from our systems that we have created that depend upon endless expansion. If you create a financial system that tries to expand endlessly, you get a crash. If you use fossil fuels and earth's resources endlessly, you create climate and ecological breakdown. And if we expand humanity space into wildlife areas and travel endlessly between countries, we create conditions for a global health pandemic. We need a new vision of prosperity that does not depend upon endless expansion. And for this I offer the donut.  The center comes from the sustainable development goals. The outside comes from the planetary boundaries. Can we meet the needs of all people within the means of the living planet? And the shape of progress has already now changed. It's no longer ever rising growth, it's thriving in balance. But if that's where we want to be, we are currently very far away. We can see the extent worldwide of people falling short on the essentials of life in the hole in the middle and already worldwide we are in ecological overshoot. So this is our 21st century self portrait. This is now who we see that we are on planet Earth and that we have the responsibility. Now we've seen this picture to start turning the story around. And last century's economic theories won't get us there. Last century's economic policies, business models and city planning won't get us there. We need to reinvent for the context we now see that we face. This picture shows you a global story. I want to bring it down to the level of nations. So here from work done by my colleague Andrew Fanning and researchers at Leeds University are six nations. On the left hand side, two nations Malawi and Bangladesh, significantly falling short on meeting people's needs, without overshooting any of their share of pressure on planetary boundaries. In the middle China Peru, which like many countries are both falling short and in some overshoot. And then over here today I have brought the Netherlands and Belgium because of our company. Meeting the needs almost of all people. This is a very low global bar of course we know that there are many people in high income countries who are not meeting their needs but against a global bar. They are doing well. However, they both are in very significant overshoot of their pressure on planetary boundaries based on the consumption of resources worldwide. Let's put these six in a picture of over 100. Here again you can see the red dots of the Netherlands and Belgium. We've got the low income countries that have to make an unprecedented transformation meeting people's needs for the first time without overshooting planetary boundaries. Middle income countries which have the double challenge of meeting people's needs for the first time, but already coming back within planetary boundaries and then today's high income countries. Which must actually meet everybody's needs for the first time but come massively back within planetary boundaries. To me this says there's no so there's no country in the world that can say we are developed we are advanced. Because none of us by this understanding are developed or advanced we are all on an unprecedented journey of transformation. And that's why we need to transform relations within and between countries because there are histories of colonialism of structural adjustment contemporary debt and trade rules. Resource extraction and of course the impacts of climate change that fall largely from the global north to the global south. And so we need to transform within every country and relations between countries. So what if I go down another level from the globe to the nation and now to the city where we are focusing today. We invite every city and this is focused particularly for cities in the global north. Now cities to ask themselves this question how can our city be a home to thriving people in a thriving place while respecting the well being of all people and the health of the whole planet. So what would it mean for the people of our city to thrive that question is answered best by the people of your city. Ask it internally based on the city's values culture history diversity. What would it mean for our city to thrive in its natural habitat to belong in earth's ecosystems where it is located to sequester carbon like the forest does to store ground water to house biodiversity to cool the air like nature does around. These two set out the local aspiration of a place but we must put that in context of our global responsibilities. So what would it mean for your city to respect the health of the whole planet. Think of all the food and clothing and electronics and construction and consumer goods that come every day into a city and all the waste that goes out. The impacts it's having on the planet. How do we combat within those planet tree boundaries and thinking still of those supply chains. What about the people employed in those supply chains the labor conditions the communities that are impacted. How do we ensure our consumption respects their rights. These are the four lenses of what it means to bring the city to bring the doughnut to your city. We've conducted workshops in Portland and Philadelphia and Amsterdam with city policymakers who've got this downscaled picture. You can see them here exploring the interconnection between these lenses. All of these people keen to connect their specialty with a holistic vision for the future of their city. And we believe there are two big dynamic changes that need to happen in our cities. One, we need to move from degenerative design taking us materials make them into stuff we won't use it and throw it away that linear degenerative design cuts against planetary boundaries. We need to create regenerative cities where resources are used again and again in a circular design. But at the same time, we need to ensure that we stop having cities and places that centralize opportunity and value in the hands of a few because that is divisive. In the last decade alone, the number of billionaires worldwide has doubled from 1000 to 2000. But even within cities we know that too many of the opportunities and the value created land in too few hands we need to create dynamics that are distributed that share value and opportunity with all in society who co created some examples of this in practice regenerative design from the car free city center of Oslo and the cycling that's taken off in Paris they've literally repainted the streets and given over some of the major avenues to cycles. Circular construction happening in Amsterdam we may hear more about Marica from this. And then in Medellin in Columbia, recognizing that the river is not an industrial sewer it is actually a life beating through the heart of a city and opening it up and creating a river park on on distributive design. In Preston in the UK the city council have focused on community wealth building how to procure goods and services from local enterprises to create a local thriving economy. In Vienna, more than 60% of people live in housing that's owned by the city or by city run cooperatives making it affordable, high quality and very equitable. Seattle was one of the first cities in the United States to to confirm a living wage of $15 an hour, and to show that this is a social foundation of well being for all workers in the city. And in Bogota turning public spaces like a car park into a playground reclaiming space for public luxury. So regenerative and distributive design, but I really want to talk not about the design of city streets, but the design of city institutions and this is what fascinates me about the different cities I've been talking to and working with. Some cities are still stuck in a very 20th century mindset, focused on growth, asking how can we make our city grow. But when I talk with cities, like with Barbara in Brussels Marica in Amsterdam and in many other places I'm hearing a very different question how can we make our city thrive. And there are five design traits that really make a difference I believe between those stuck on growth and those who have moved to thriving. So I'll give some examples of each on the purpose. I've been impressed by Amsterdam embracing this purpose of being a thriving regenerative inclusive city for all residents while respecting planetary boundaries. Of course anybody can change their purpose on a website. What matters is you follow that through in the deep design of your institutions. You know networks, how can the city use its procurement power. Again, Amsterdam is a city that's been using circular procurement to buy and put in place regulations that procurement will become circular over time. The city of Ohio, Cleveland Ohio, there's a hospital in next right next door to a low income neighborhood they said let us actively recruit staff for our hospital from this neighborhood. They're planning to work people from a low income neighborhood who never expected to have this chance. Let's make that chance for them. So making employment more distributive by design. And the city of Melbourne brought together many partners in a contract to buy renewable energy for 10 years at a fixed price. And so a wind farm was built, bringing forward the future of energy by using contracts and procurement. The city government cities are creating city assemblies or connecting with residents in new ways, realizing that you need that community based energy to bring about long term transformation. Setting ambitious regulations such as Amsterdam saying we're going to be halving material use by 2030 and a fully circular city by 2050 that puts in motion and energy and the clarity for industry to get moving. And again, learning by experiment in bikes lot of harm in Amsterdam a living lab, a place where people are experimenting with circular design low energy, we're using materials, collecting rainwater, because cities are complex systems. So we need to learn by trying and then spreading and then ownership who owns the land of the city who owns the housing, who owns the utilities, who owns the data, and who owns the businesses cities can shape this and use their ownership of public assets to pivot to the future. Lastly, finance, of course, many cities actually have depended in the 20th century on key revenue from car parking charges. If they're moving cars out of the city centre where then will city money come from. More and more cities after the 2008 financial crash realized the big banks were not going to serve small and medium enterprises, so have set up city banks credit unions to make that available. And then cities have their own pension fund. Where's that invested. Again, through the C 40 many cities came together and divested from fossil fuels and have invested in green futures so cities can use their power of finance in many ways. And so I invite every person listening to this thinking about the city you're in that you're part of the resident of. How can you ensure that in your city, all five of these design traits are now oriented towards ensuring that the city is thriving. What can you do in a think tank, a university, a community group, a business network to also make that happen. So let me finish and say that this is the work we're doing at donut economics action lab, working with cities to put these ideas into practice also with educators with civil society with businesses with teachers. So if this sounds exciting to you join the community. Everybody can join see the tool, find the resources, learn with us, because we know that it's peer to peer inspiration that really makes change happen. Which is why I'm so delighted now to hear from Barbara and Marike, because they are the peers. I mean these are two city leaders who I in conversation have seen. This is what leadership looks like when someone takes a vision and starts running with it. So I'm so looking forward to this conversation. Thank you. Thank you very much for in very short notice. Yeah, explaining not only the concept but also making people excited how to implement it in their own city. So now we move to the example of Amsterdam. And I said before we will first show a short film about the city. Our aim is for Amsterdam to be a thriving city where everyone can prosper while maintaining respect for the earth and its planetary boundaries. Our current way of life affects people and places all over the world. Our level of consumption is depleting raw materials and causing significant CO2 emissions elsewhere. To change this, we need to rethink the way we produce and consume. In other words, Amsterdam needs to become a circular city. But how? First, we examined the impact our actions have on other parts of the world and documented this in the Amsterdam city donut based on Kate Rayworth's donut model. Second, we created a circular strategy with concrete actions regarding food, buildings and goods. Activities that not only reduce our own consumption and prevent waste but also set an example for residents and businesses like the Wondeltown, the circular district back Schlottham or our port serving as a circular hub. However, Amsterdam needs to do this as a whole. Together with residents and business, we are developing solutions both big and small. Many initiatives are already underway, which we support with coaching, funding and sometimes as a launching customer. The COVID-19 crisis hit our society and economy hard. It's important that we recover from it in a way that benefits everyone. We need to stimulate the economy in a circular way for our prosperity and our future. Amsterdam, circular city in 2050. So we're very happy that we now can give the floor to Marike van Donink, who is an alderman for the city of Amsterdam and who will explain us how they are implementing and using this bright concept of the donut economy. Marike, you have the floor. Thank you very much, Dirk. And yes, you've all seen the beautiful city of Amsterdam and you didn't hear. It wasn't my voice, but somebody's voice telling you what our ideas are to become a circular city by 2050. But even more, not only, it's not that we want to, but how do we want to become a circular city by 2050. And I think you have, yeah, I don't think that's the first slide. Yes, that's the first slide. I only have a few slides, so it's more like that you don't have to see my face all the time on your computer. So it's just to give a few images. Thank you so much for inviting me and telling a little bit about our journey in the donut. Because it is an exciting journey, I can tell you, at the moment in the midst of a crisis or we thought it was the midst of the crisis. It was only the beginning of the crisis that we as Amsterdam launched our idea to become a circular city and by using the donuts in order to become a circular city. And it was in April and it was just one month after the whole world went into lockdown and was, I'm sorry, it was my cat. That the world was in crisis and we were thinking, do we have to launch a circular strategy at this moment? And but then we thought we should because we know from crisis is that it's the best moment to make a change. And we saw in this crisis how much other crisis that were also Kate was already saying that how much it was connected to the other crisis that we were facing as a world. And we also knew that change was needed. And maybe in the darkest hour, it's the best to see a light. And we thought that by presenting the circular economy and especially by doing it through the donut economy and through the donut theories that would give some hope of change that we were all longing for.  It's hard to imagine, but it is.  So we thought, yeah, let's launch it. And well, Kate and I have ever since been on several moments together, explaining why we launched it. And it was to give hope and it was to show that if you want to make change, you have to do it at the moment when the crisis is the deepest. And only by launching this new strategy, it already makes a discussion starting. It already makes that people start thinking about it. And I think that's the beginning of the change by talking to others, by exchanging ideas. So why does Amsterdam want to become a circular city and a climate neutral city? It's because our city is putting, as Kate was already saying, a lot of CO2 emissions into the air. And we're putting a lot of waste into the world because we are a very rich, rich city that is using a lot of materials that is using a lot of fossil fuels. And we know we have to change that. So as a city, we have set very ambitious goals to become climate neutral. Also by 2050, we want to be climate neutral. And by 2030, we want to reduce our emissions by 55%.  And as you see, a lot of work needs to be done. But when I started in this work, I also noticed that a lot of people see the energy transition, but also the transition into a circular economy as a very technical. So we exchange one fuel for the other one. Oh, so we don't drive a normal car anymore. We drive a Tesla. And for one thing, I don't think that we can make the big change in becoming a circular world and a climate neutral world without actually challenging the system that we're living in, because it's the system itself that makes us a city that pollutes so much. So by just changing one fuels for the other one material from the other is not going to make that structural change that we actually need.  You know, we could not everybody can afford a Tesla. And even if we can do that in in this rich part of the world, it still doesn't support people in other parts of the world that don't have all these facilities. So we know we need we know we need to do it in a different way. And I hope there's a lot of young people here watching but maybe also some of my generation, but I was brought up with Thatcher. I was brought up with with with Reagan, I was brought up in the in the doctrine that there is no alternative to the economics that were, you know, starting at that moment. And when I read the donut economy by Kate, and it was just a few months before I met her in the first time. It was my moment that I thought there is an alternative. And I think if you really want to have a system change that means that you have to look for the alternative and I do believe that the donut theory gives us the alternative. But it also gives us the challenge that we also have to invented ourselves or to work with it ourselves the theory is beautiful. But we have to put it into practice and Kate gives us the the instruments, but we as cities have to do it. And that's a great journey. That's why we call the presentation the journey with the donor because it's not there yet we are, we are working on it. And so yes, we want to have a fully circular city by 2050, but we want to do that in a way that we're actually not overshooting the planet's boundaries, and that we have a social foundation. So we started to work together and I wasn't happy when I started as an elder person that the city was already working with Kate so I was in a beautiful position to make that happen even more. So we have to look at how can we make strategies that we actually bring those two together. And how can we make sure that our ambitions to become climate neutral and our ambitions become circular. Do not only interfere with our social ambitions to become a just city, but actually work work together. And therefore we, we asked Kate. So what is our situation right now. What are where are we if we're looking at Amsterdam. How are, how are we doing what is our, what is our city portrait. And so city took a picture. She took a picture of Amsterdam and showed us exactly what our overshoot is and where we fall short on a social level. Do you have the next slide please. So, the city donut looked at a different ways it it looked at our social foundations, if it's working or not, but no, not only for the people in Amsterdam, but also of the people worldwide and how we are doing on that thing. Also on the ecological so what is, what would it mean for Amsterdam to thrive within a natural habitat but also what would it mean for the health of the whole planet. And the donut showed us some spectacular things because yes we are doing well on a social level of course we are we are a very rich nation. But if you look closely we might also not work that well, because one of the things for example. If you if you if you measure the GDP of a country, you take the price of housing to see if the city is rich or not. And then by the means of the housing the prices of houses in Amsterdam Amsterdam is extremely rich. But we're extremely poor because we can't house our people.  Then you're not a thriving city. Then indeed you are poor city if you can't. If you if you're only opening your doors to to the to the rich people and we don't do that by purpose, but our policies work out that way. The other thing is on a social level, which is also I think something that happens in a bigger city is that there's more people dealing with loneliness. There's more people dealing with depression because they are socially isolated. And I think those are big lessons that we never thought of. And actually the donut showed us that that's it's part of it. And then of course it we don't even have to talk about what the effects of the way Amsterdam is living is on people worldwide. Because of all the consumer goods that we have we know are produced under very bad labor conditions we know it. And the donut shows us the donut shows us that we have a port that has a lot of storage for cocoa for chocolate, the chocolate beans. And we know that there's a lot of labor expectation going on in in that industry. So it's things that we know but the city donut showed us very much and it also showed us that we are doing quite okay with our are better than before. With the pollution in the air, because we have less cars now in Amsterdam, but not not good. We're doing okay with our own waters, but we're doing bad on CO2 emissions and we're doing bad on what it means in other parts of the world. And this mirror is quite confrontational, because it really shows our inputs it really shows our footprint in in the world and it shows also that we have to have to have to start make changes. And so we decided to do that so we set up a strategy that is very much focused on how can we do the two things together so how can we for example, look at the fact that we need more housing in Amsterdam we need to build more houses, and at the same time do that in a way that we don't overshoot all the the planet's boundaries. So we're looking much more now at working with wood. And if we do that as the city we also support those ecological farms that actually make that that make, you know, would that is that is okay. And we can support that and so the other thing is that for the building world, we put high regulations on how they're using their materials, or how they deconstruct their buildings in order to reuse those materials. And also on we put high regulations on on the CO2 emissions of a building itself. So not only while you are building it but also on the on the building. And the funny thing is that a lot of people always say, Oh, you can't put those regulations on those on those companies because then they will go somewhere else, or then they don't want to do it. And the funny things is, once you have your regulations, and you put them for everybody. So it's a level level playing field, and you show the companies that this is a policy that is here to stay that we won't change it from day to day. Then everybody's quite okay with it. And when I have my my talks with the people who builds the building constructions in in in our, in our city. A lot of people are extremely proud, because it's, it's also a little bit, you know, interesting to be the most innovative company in in Amsterdam, or in Netherlands, that you do this that you start doing new things. So regulation, if you're clear, if you're straight about your regulation, most companies don't mind that much, as long as there is a playing field. So that's that that's one of the things there that we're working on. The other thing that we're working on is very much is on consumer goods. A consumer goods will know that they that they have a high impact on on both the social conditions in other parts of the world by bad that labor conditions, but also on on the on the waste that we're producing. So one of the things that we did is that textiles are one of the consumer goods that are extremely dirty while making we made a denim deal with a lot of companies and say okay within a few years we want to have at least 20% of all denim denim being used by circular textiles. And by having such a big coalition of people working on on denim in Amsterdam it's it's a denim capital. Everybody is is working with us so we are working with recovery centering for clothing and clothing brands in order to make sure that we can actually make this happen so we can extend also the life of clothing. And we do that in the whole region of Amsterdam so not only in the city, but we also have. We work together with with with other cities in the in the surroundings. And we're together lobbying towards the Dutch government and the EU to have more producer responsibility when it comes to preventing textile waste and to make longer use so we put it into practice and combine that with our lobby efforts to to other worlds. As Kate was already saying we are also very very much working on how that how we are doing our commissioning and our purchasing. So as a city we said we want to be as a as a municipality 100% circularity by 2030, but we also want to reduce our own consumption and of course we all know that the circular economy starts with refuse and reduce. So we also want to give the good example by doing it and at the same time when we purchase our services and products. You know we have a big impact and if we do that all in a circular way that has a big impact also on innovative innovative businesses that that have a bigger market. So I also think that as a city if you give a good example you're not only giving a good example at the same time you're also making sure that businesses who want to do good in a circular way have also more clients. And we also do that together with with regional partners and one of the things is that we also make handbooks on how do you do a circular procurements and commissioning because it also asked for some different skills. So it's not only by doing it but it's also taking others along and showing how to do that. So there's there's quite some products that are projects that we're we're working on from collecting old paint and making that into new to textiles to very short very small projects where there is a group of women in the southeast part of Amsterdam which is a poor area. And they are working together and suing a curtains for people in houses that are badly isolated. And so the women have a job by by suing those curtains and the people have good curtains that will isolate their houses better so they can have that in there they have energy bill. So sometimes these very small projects can be extremely. You know they can can have the social impact, but also can be something that you say, oh I can do a donut thing within my own community I can do it with my neighbors I can do it on a on a low level. The other thing is that we work very much with repair cafes, making sure that people don't throw away stuff that can actually be repaired. And there we also need again our government I think there is that that we need to be much stricter towards producers and saying that you can't produce goods anymore that can't be repaired. And a lot of people don't want to buy all this stuff but you have to because once it's broken it can't be meant, and you need to to have that. So that is one of our biggest lobby things that we do. I think the other one and I'm glad we're in an international setting right now and something and close to Brussels where we need Brussels. I think in order to become really a circular economy, we have to completely change this text regime that we have, because we need to go from low taxes on labor and high taxes on raw materials, because that would also, you know, make the circular economy more thriving and especially in these days when we know that a lot of people will become out of job or already jobless. If we start a new economy that is using use materials, we can have, you know, start up with people who can think about how can you do that can be, you know, completely taken apart again, but also actually the people who are doing it so from very technical jobs to very practical jobs is something that circular economy is about. And I think we need to do that what we need to have this change that actually, because right now these companies who are working circular, it's so hard for them to actually make to make it work because still labor is so expensive and raw materials are too cheap. So that's my plea that we absolutely change this because otherwise it won't work. I did forget to ask for the next slides, because I think the next slide is about the projects that we're making. So this is how we're working. We have a city donut. We have our strategy. Right now we are working in a two year innovation and implementation program. And then we monitor our circular economy because Kate made our, our, our, our portrait, but that needs to be a mirror. So we have to look in the mirror all the time. And in two years time, Kate will come back and confront us how we have been doing. And that's, you know, that's quite exciting for us because all the time you have to see, is it working. And then we can change things or, you know, put in more effort to actually, to actually do that. So the city portrait is not only a portrait, it's a mirror, it's a monitoring instrument. And it's also something that gives you an appetite to do, to do more. Maybe for the last slide and then I'll stop. We, those are some of the projects. We also tried to put in some of the first few things that we did when when COVID hit the city was to look at what can we do right now. And so these are the pictures about very clever people working in, in, in restaurants and making this. But what we did as a city was a project which was called everybody connected. And we collected all laptops and devices. We refurbished them with a special company who do that, who does that. And we gave those laptops and devices to poor people who were in, in situation of isolation, so they could still talk to their old people could still talk to their grandchildren with these devices and it was a small project. But it was also something that as a city we saw we have a donut we have a small donut we did it in one month. And actually we could do something when we felt as a city so empty handed with people with so many problems so even the small things can make big impact. Thank you very much. Okay, thank you very much for your presentation full of energy and engagements and also I very like, like what you said it's not the picture but it's also mirror. It is really a fantastic way of kind of self reflective way of government and policy. And so I'm now very proud also to be able to give the floor to background who is Secretary of State of the Brussels government, and another city so I think you'll hear another very inspiring story about the great city. So background you have the floor. Thank you very much. Good afternoon everyone I'm really honored to be with you this afternoon I would like to thank you, Dick and Marie and Kate for their presentation. I'm proud to be able to talk with you about our projects in Brussels, but I will do it in French to bring some diversity but also a little bit because my English is not too good to do it in English. So I'll switch to French and I will try to share my slides. I hope you see it because I don't see you anymore. Yes we see them. A couple of items pertaining to Brussels. I'm State Secretary for economic transition scientific research since 2019. I was brought there by a green wave, a green wave that brought francophone green political parties in power in towns but also in the Brussels region in 2018 2019 respectively and in 2020 at the federal level. Brussels is a rather small city 162 square kilometers with a very dense urban grid. Few zones are non urbanized. It's hard to leverage empty space in Brussels. We don't there's not much primary production in Brussels, and it's even rarer to find areas where you can transform matter 1.2 million inhabitants live in Brussels. There was a strong increase in previous years. A lot of wealth is produced in Brussels we've used the traditional indicators in order to assess the wealth produced in Brussels in the region of Brussels. So we have a GDP per capita that is rather high. If you compare it to other cities such as Paris or Berlin. This wealth is produced by the tertiary sector. Brussels is the capital of Europe. It's also the headquarters for a number of other international organizations such as NATO. It's also at the crossroads of Europe, close to London, close to Amsterdam, close to Paris. There's also a number of different economic poles in Brussels, mainly in the service sector. In many industries, we don't have much of the primary sector in Brussels and not much of the secondary sector. So yes, a lot of wealth is produced. If you look at it in terms of GDP, however, these resources are poorly distributed. We have an extremely high poverty rate higher than the rest of Belgium, as it is often the case in cities. But we also have strong inequalities from an education standpoint. A weak social mobility, high child poverty, high unemployment, notably youth unemployment, which was already quite serious before coronavirus. But now we have overshot the 30% threshold in terms of youth unemployment. So these were traditional indicators, but it gives you a gist of our political challenges. But you are aware of this. GDP is a flawed indicator. It doesn't say much about quality of life and challenges in a given area. So in our majority agreement, drawn up in 2019, we focused on climate. We elected to entrain climate goals at the forefront of our program. We decided that every sector in the region should take into account the climate impact of their policies on the planet, on future generations. Hand in hand with the Dutch-speaking environmentalists, we were put in charge of environmental capacities. And we were also charged with managing waste, but also in charge of managing the economic systems in the town. So this was a new task for the Greens, and it was absolutely crucial for us to work in that domain. Because we want to rise up to the challenges not only in towns but in the rest of the world. We know that indirect emissions have a bigger impact than direct emissions. So in order to have a proper carbon balance sheet, we have to take into account everything. So we also have to look into what the inhabitants of Brussels consume. And the economy is also interesting for us because there are many opportunities for companies, but also for a region to thrive, but also for job creation, especially in a city which has very high unemployment rate for the youth. So we have crystal clear economic targets that are taken in accordance with climate targets. So we're trying to reorganize public means in order to dedicate them to economic activities that bring about the transition and that seek to make the necessary choices to respect the 2050 goals. So the economic tools of a city do not equal those of a state. However, we have significant means. We are able to support companies. We can help them with their business plan. We can help them seek out customers. We can help them with the place they're set up. We have funding tools and we can just allow them to transform. The Brussels region is a small region. However, there are some areas where it is possible to carry out economic activities, but on a smaller medium scale, not a large scale, because we have a very small territory. So we are clear, very clear in terms of our economic intentions. And I'd like to pick up on what Maria said. It's absolutely crucial for the economy to have some clarity on the future. 2030 is a midterm outlook, but it is necessary for companies to have a certain measure of clarity for the future, and I believe the city has shown once again how important clarity for the future is crucial for companies. So I'd like also to pick up on what Kate has said, and with the ambition of having a productive city. Greens have always known this intuitively. You have to bring places of production and consumption closer together. It's crucial for the environment, but it's also crucial for social matters, for our responsibility towards the planet. But it's also important for job creation, for the quality of goods. This is obvious for foodstuffs, but also for the clothing industry. In 2019, it was clear for us, but since COVID hit, it's even clearer. So in Brussels, a small city with no hinterland, well, it's difficult to produce. We don't have decent access to raw materials. For 10 years now, we have analysed urban metabolism, and we've been able to assess influx and outflux in the city, and we've been able to look at the circular economy and how to add value to waste. And we believe this is a crucial topic that will allow us to foster better consumption in Brussels. In a way, COVID crisis has fed up the movement. The man or the woman on the street now speaks about the importance of relocalising the economy. So this crisis merged into an opportunity, and we were able to carry out a number of studies on the potential lanes that will be interesting for Brussels and inhabitants, and potential projects that we could relocalise on the Brussels territory. The transition we want to implement in Brussels will be inclusive. I've studied it before. Our targets are clear. Companies are aware of them, and we want to bring every company on board. We have a number of front-runner companies, companies since their inception, that are highly conscious of environmental targets and that have integrated environmental externalities of their activity and that suffer from this loyal competition from other companies that do not integrate these externalities. So we work with them to improve their work, but also to raise awareness among Brussels citizens. We also want to work with more traditional companies and bring about their transition and make them more socially responsible. So this is an inclusive transition. This transition must be also exciting. So everyone does have to want to be on board.  I think that for companies that may be something easier than in other areas, that may seem strange, but so we need to really make this transition palatable, exciting for everyone. And the transition must also be founded on challenging poverty and on creating wealth for everyone. As I've said, poverty is really an issue in Brussels. Now there is no red in the Brussels doughnut country to what can be seen in other cities. There still is inequality and this is a challenge that we must face and that we must remedy. Now transition has to be inclusive, exciting and creating wealth and that will make it sustainable. This transition has to be sustainable. The idea really is that whatever happens, the next elections, the transition cannot be stopped. That this transition can survive as being in power. Everyone in Brussels expect that from us. And so for all the administrations, for all the public authorities, this work must continue whatever the outcome of elections. So how can we implement this transition? We needed a method. And so when we read Kate's book and when we read also what had been done in Amsterdam, we turned to Kate in order to benefit from expertise. We wanted to know where to start. We wanted also to complement the studies that had been carried out on the urban metabolism. These were all studies at 10 years old and they weren't focused precisely on economic activity. We wanted something that was more accurate and more recent and we wanted to quite simply Kate's input in order to see how we could do some work on economic activity and consumption patterns. It was kind enough to accept to help us. And we also benefited from the expertise of associations in Brussels who are used to collaborative work. We also involved some researchers. And what may actually single out the Brussels City Donut is that collaborative participative character because the portrait of the city and also the design of the toolkit will be based on everyone's collaboration. I want this to be inclusive in the sense that every citizen can contribute a number of citizens were keen actually to participate into in the project. And so we are very keen to have them contribute to the design of those tools. They work on concrete situations on some very concrete examples in areas of the city, which are transitioning or on particular areas for example. The goods that are being frequently used and based on what they will contribute Kate and the researchers contributing to the project will be able to design tools. Now we're waiting for this toolkit, which will be based on the City Donut that's been run out for Brussels. We also mapped the situations in Brussels. We're working on quantitative data. We work with indicators, but we also work with qualitative aspects. And that is thanks to the collaboration of citizens. We also wanted to have a manual for local authorities for administrations so that they know what to do even if we are ousted at future elections. And that the prism of the donut is something that will stay in the future. And that regardless of the government, a number of things will be taken into account in the future. So that is also an outcome that we expect from the project. And there is the setting up of a donut community, not just with the public authorities, but with the citizens and associations, local associations to us. The sustainability of the project is really key. Now, the work has been launched. It is being carried out. Of course, the pandemic is not exactly the best of context when we launched the project. So we started at the end of summer, the beginning of autumn, and we were hoping that people could meet face to face. Well, we've all seen what happened to that. And so, of course, this is slowing us down, but this hasn't stopped us and the enthusiasm is still there. We are also really interested in what we're doing. And that, of course, is very helpful when it comes to outreach. Every time there's an article in the press, we have new participants who are volunteering. We think that we will have to assess the satisfaction of citizens who have been willing to participate because of course that kind of collaboration through screens, etc. is not the same thing as actually meeting in place at the town hall. So we want to reach out to segments of the population who are not necessarily familiar with technology allowing them to meet. So that is something that we are very impatient to tell you more about in a couple of months. So that was my presentation. Thank you very much, Jack. And over to you. Thank you very much. How are you going to implement the donut in Brussels. And I think, and that's already, I think very relevant, although maybe if someone is watching and no people are watching from Norway, they think Amsterdam and Brussels they are so close by. It are just two cities of the same type, having the same challenges. These two presentations really have shown that the context is really crucial. Every city is different, even if you have two cities which are from outside view are the same industrial which Western European countries. So I must say, looking at the questions already put in the Q&A, we have some very interesting topics. First, I want to invite Kate, do you want to react to one of the two stories of how the cities are doing? Oh, just to say it's fantastic for me to hear both of these stories. As you just said, Derek, it's really interesting to hear the very different contexts of cities. But from our point of view at Donut Economics Action Lab, we're a very small team. We create ideas and tools. And what matters for us is that there are change makers in different places who say, that looks useful to me in what I'm doing and then bring it in and make it work in the context of their work. And what we just heard from Marika and then Barbara is exactly that. Change makers who say, I see why that is useful for what we're doing here. And as Marika said, we need to learn and figure out how to put it into practice here. And that's exactly what's happening. This is how these ideas can spread. Nobody has got a predetermined method. Not you do this, then this, then this, then this. Everything has to adapt to the reality of a place. And so I think there are brilliant change makers, whether in policymaking roles in government, in community organizations who understand the context of where they are, and how to make it work. What I liked hearing in both presentations was that thinking about how do we ensure this has a lasting effect beyond whatever happens at the next election. And that's, of course, a policy makers question. How do we ensure that this has a long term impact and I was really struck by the examples in both places of how that's happening. Okay, thanks. The question that really from the start was re-voted a lot was about citizens participation. So Barbara already really insisted in how important she finds that maybe Marika, you can elaborate a little bit on how you are organizing in Amsterdam citizens participation. Yes, thank you. And I noticed that I didn't talk much about it because Kate already said that while making the city doughnut, it was actually, I'm always saying Kate made our portrait, but actually the citizens of Amsterdam did it. Sorry, Kate, but you know, we talked, you know, there was a lot of workshops, both with a lot of citizens, but also with city servants. Because we know that if the people working for the administration don't embrace the idea, then after four years, if there's other political, you know, wave in the city, then it can go away. In Amsterdam, we don't have the administration stays the same, while the politicians change. So you also have to have it embedded within the administration. And what I really liked that there were a few sessions that Kate did with the combination of city servants with citizens. So actually, they also learned from each other how you make policies, but also how you implement them and how sometimes difficult it is to bring an idea into a policy, but also how you need each other to bring an idea into a policy. So when we were developing the doughnut and the strategies, we worked a lot of with people who either came up to us ourselves by invitation and you know, we had over social media, etc, etc. We invited people to join, but also very much from their own communities. So when we are working with both, that's the cat, he's hungry. And when we're working with with both how we implement it, but also with coming up with new ideas, we love to work with communities because we have a donor coalition in Amsterdam and that's a group of people from communities who want to bring the community within their community. So they come up with smaller projects, quite often community projects and see how they can turn it into a doughnut deal that they can actually then ask the city and say, can we get support, whether it's it's financial support but quite often it's just support by making it happen from the city. So those communities bring their peers. So we like to not only that by invitation of the government, but especially by invitation of your neighbor, or by invitation of some of the community leaders. So that's how we made the doughnut deal. So when we have our monitoring in in in one year time, then of course we will ask the city people of Amsterdam, again, and right now how we are, how we are involving them is by all those donor deals. So we're inviting community leaders to come up with donor deals and see how we can support them. And I'm saying we are working with them but also they are inviting us to come and look and see what's happening in communities, because quite often so much more is already working than we know. And especially now in COVID times when you see how neighborhoods support each other help each other in surviving. These are quite often also the small laboratories for donor deals, because they quite often work together. So it's not only us involving communities, it's also communities involving us in what they're doing. Can I briefly add Derek, the importance of this community momentum so at the same time as as Marika saying in Amsterdam that the city government became interested in the donut. Simultaneously this Amsterdam donut coalition formed I've put the link in the chat I really encourage people to look. It's made up of NGOs, universities, think tanks, startups, community initiatives. They have put in place their own momentum. I think this is so valuable for the city because when moving towards a donut gets tougher, right, sometimes it's fun and then sometimes it's tough. And that community engagement will help hold the administration come on we said we're going to do this let's push through. And as Marika said when the government changes but the citizens are still there. I was on a call yesterday with the city of Copenhagen, and somebody live on the call was saying well how how do we start. I said well you just, you know how can we start a community initiative. I said well you just start by just starting. So somebody live on the webinar said right I'm going to start one here in Copenhagen. So you can start an initiative in their city they can post an event on donut economics action lab platform. We will broadcast it and you can find similar change makers in your city that it's popping up in California in Melbourne in Cambridge in Berlin in these cities. So it's a really really crucial counterpart and a collaboration with the city government leading and with the city residents. We're already also answering some questions how can we start in in our own city, I think just do it. That's, I think also something of the new reality, not just making five years plans and then after it's doing something. Make a plan and do it at the same time. So I don't know, but you can want to react from the perspective of Brussels to how people and people associations are already involved. I think that the virtual circle is composed of public authorities who must give a clear orientation, political authorities must seek to inspire and to bring citizens on board. It must also help citizens think about what they usually do in their lives to think about the indicators, because we are told these indicators. So we have to rethink our position within the economy. We have to change our goggles, but we also have to inspire them, maybe show them Kate's book. Another pillar next to public authorities is citizens civil society research. You already have a number of spontaneous initiatives that have come to life without the impulsion of public authorities. So there's a lot of enthusiasm. The third pillar is companies, but the three pillars must work together civil society companies, public authorities. So you have front runners, you have startups who from the onset are entirely committed to that approach. However, a number of companies are far from this approach. However, it is necessary to involve them. The current narrative pertaining to the Green Deal, the impact of a COVID crisis on the real economy has brought about a certain awareness among companies. They are now aware that they need to relocalize and they have been made sharply aware of some of the deadlocks within our economy. So I believe we have to really make this triangle here between these three pillars. If we want this approach to be lasting, we have to work with the interconnection between the three pillar civil society companies, public authorities. We have a next question. I think Kate, it's not a surprise, this question, but someone is asking what is the relationship between the donuts and the post growth economy. Is the donut compass an approach of a post growth movement? So I think the 20th century we inherited was, as I said at the very beginning, an economy that presumed the shape of progress was this ever rising line of growth, right? Hang on one second, let me grab it. Here it is, right? That's the 20th century shape of progress. So we inherited this and we've inherited institutions that assume this is normal, that, you know, we're sitting in, I mean, the UK, in the Netherlands, in Belgium, we're in some of the richest countries in the world, even though there's poverty in the midst of plenty, but we're in the richest countries in the world. Countries have never been as financially rich as these countries before us. And yet the 20th century model tells us that the solution to our problems lies in yet more growth. There's got to be something crazy about this. And we know that our growth is not in any way decoupled from carbon emissions and from material use until we make the transformations that Amsterdam is beginning to put in regulation. So we cannot continue pursuing the idea of economic success is endless growth. And in nature, this growth, this is a wonderful, healthy phase of life. But in nature, things don't grow forever. Things do this. This is nature's growth curve. Things grow and then they grow up and they come to thrive. And it's this, the first phase is easy. That was the 20th century. Grow, grow, grow, grow, grow. Now we have to do something that's more challenging to us because it's new, which is to grow until we thrive. And I believe what we must put first is the recognition we must cut our material use, we must cut our carbon emissions, we must, these are the indicators and the metrics of the 21st century. We need to enable our GDP not to be dependent upon 3%, 3%, 3% every year because we have to focus somewhere else. So yes, the donut very much fits with the concepts of a post growth economy that is not addicted to endlessly growing. Of course, there will always be industries that are growing, regenerative ones, distributive one, and there are industries that need to let go and leave in and stay in the 20th century. And we do not want the fossil fuels to dominate in the way they have, let go and leave. So there will be change, there will be innovation, there will be dynamism within these economies, but they cannot be structured on the expectation that they will increase indefinitely. That growth is needed in other parts of the world where people still cannot meet their most basic needs. That's why we need to be more distributive by design. So we make the most of the resources that we have. And I love the Brussels 2030 vision of ensuring that public means are directed towards this transition. This really makes sense of this much more distributive design to make the most of the wealth that we have. Okay, many thanks for this answer and a mistake. I really love your educational material. We have another very relevant question and it reminds me directly about your presentation America on circular economy in Amsterdam. So Johan is asking about two third of emissions in the cities of the global north indirect scope tree. What works best to influence the consumption of citizens and local businesses towards less impact so maybe maybe you can elaborate on that. This is of course a hard one, because you don't want to be a government that tells people what to do or not. We see it now within the COVID crisis. It's very hard to be a government to actually tell people they can't go out at night. So you also can't be a government to tell somebody what clothes to wear or what products to buy. So I think what we try to do as a city is to show that there's alternatives and to show what the impact is of these extreme amount of consumer stuff that we think that we need to buy all the time. So yes to some shops we have we have we try to put in some regulations on there for example energy use, which is still difficult so maybe close the doors when you're putting up the heating. Right now all the shops are closed so that's that's that's not a problem, but so what we do is to to educate people to to to help people learn. You know what the what the impact is on on on all of the consumer goods. We try to support those industries and companies who want to make a change, which is quite circular so it's still not really based on to reduce the amount of consumer goods. It's very much on to use circular goods, which is maybe the first step. At the same time you see right now in Amsterdam but I guess it's the same in Brussels in the UK that vintage shops are very fashionable at the moment. And you also see a change within consumer behavior that a lot of people are fed up with buying all the time, and especially a lot of people are fed up with the things that they buy that they are broken immediately and once they're broken they can't be fixed, which is you know whether you're rich or poor it is a frustration so that's why I was saying we need to have this, you know, regulation on on producers responsibility that actually they make things that can be repaired and think make made to be broken. But also we set up as I said repair cafes so people can actually see that it was only the generation before me so maybe two generations for the most of the people that it was quite normal to repair stuff. So some of the things you don't have to go way back in history to go back and say, we kind of missed, you know, we kind of went the wrong way only the last 40 years. Before that we were much more conscience of what actually the value is of things. And I think a lot of young generations revalue the stuff that they have much more than my generation I was brought up with you can throw away everything and buy something new. I think new generations wanted differently and what is the city we can do is to make sure they have access to it. They have access to places where they can repair their stuff they have access to places where they can, you know, buy and lend that we have neighborhood apps where you actually you don't have to buy something in order to be able to make use of it. And that also again makes the circle economy donut a social thing that it comes from possession towards making use of stuff. And, you know, having tools, having apps or neighborhood apps, platforms, social platforms actually exchange stuff, you don't need to own everything in order to to have access to it. So possession is so outdated. It's not about if you have something, it's about where you have access to it. And if you're willing to share it with others. Okay, many thanks. And I think what you say Marike about the emphasis on that we also need regulation on national on European level, I think this is key. And so maybe it's good Kate. When we started, we still had what I would call a neoliberal European Commission. Now we have two other people on the layer and table mouse, they introduced green deal. I think this is really another framework than before. So, I don't know whether you're also already invited that European level, but do you see a link between Donald model and this green deal of the European Commission. Let me do things briefly. So one, yes, it's fantastic to see that this orientation towards green and just Europe is at the top of the framing of this green deal.  In Amsterdam published the city donut in April 2020 at the highest rate of infection in Amsterdam of covert. They published the light to come out of the dark. And just as we need from covert recovery we need this green vision of where we want to go so that's I would say just very broadly on the agricultural side, you know, the common agricultural policy still is nothing like transformed on the scale that needs to happen. And the positive, the extension of the right to repair. So, so putting in place that legislation that begins to make sense to have a repair shop in every neighborhood. There's much. It's really good beginning but my goodness there's a long way to go but I have to say comparing Europe to for example where the United States is. I mean that this legislation is in place that this vision is now understood that we're beginning to see the regulations that actually make it possible on the ground is good. And I noticed that I'm still saying we That's a good thing. We Europeans. Thank you. Of course. So there's another question and it's a very difficult one but I think, looking at reality, we have to pause it's, it's about this, this, the tension between the sense of urgency, reading reports, and the speed at which politicians can change their city. I also was on the city council again to 20 years so I know this tension but I can imagine Marietta and Barbara that sometimes people of civil society or maybe academics tell you, it's going to slow speed up. So, how do you deal with that. I mean, it's not just the citizens, the citizenry or the researcher to tell us that things are going to slowly I mean the political leadership thinks that too. I'm focused on businesses and so I talk to businesses and what they need what businesses need is visibility, they need to know what the playing field is. When you tell them about 2030 2050 they want to know what is going to happen what the stage is going to be companies are agile and they like challenges. So once you actually point to a direction and you set the stage, then they go that way so to be honest, my point is rather positive. And I've seen very enthusiastic reactions from companies, even those companies who never thought much about social transition and environmental transition. This is from 2019, maybe 2018 and 2019 with the climate movement and an increasing awareness globally around environmental questions was something that was creating positive context. And they also have been some greenwashing at play. So when I greenwashing is only just that but at least you know, it's paying tribute to the importance of becoming greener, and then the green deal of that has been put out by the European government. So I think that has changed the stage. I mean, there has been taxonomy, lots of thinking about definitions, etc. And so now the European Commission claims to be pursuing objectives that are more ambitious than objective that they found very ambitious already beforehand. Now, with the century crisis and the relocalization of economic activity, there is a new awareness and suddenly economists, orthodox economists are certainly saying things that would have been unheard of before that would have been unlikely before. And so now the greening of the economy is something that is slowly making progress in the minds of the economic establishment. So I think that if one is engaged in political action, it is because you want things to change because you want to bring change and because you know that that change is urgent. And so from where I stand, I would say that things are accelerating to be honest. Very fast. We are moving to the end. So I want to invite all three of you if you want to have a kind of closing remark of idea. It's the time to share it. So maybe Kate, if you have a lot of work for everybody. Yes, so Donut Economics Action Lab is a tiny team. And our principles of working are very clear. One, we go where the energy is. Two, we believe in the power of peer to peer inspiration. And both of those principles are the reasons why I have been in conversation with Merica and Barbara, because one, as everybody can hear, this is where the energy is. These are policy makers who have decided in their city in their context with all the complexity. We're going to do this. We're going to take on a vision and I don't yet know what that will mean in my city, but I have the guts and the leadership to start to peer to peer inspiration. I hope that other city officials, leaders are indeed national or local or town watching this, see that leadership, because the most powerful inspiration is not somebody standing on the stage talking about the theory.  But here it is. Look, it's being written into city policy. So I'm just really delighted and honored to have been here with Barbara and Merica today with their leadership. This is how change gets spread and this is the speed and scale of change that we need to make happen. Please, other people take inspiration from them and make it ripple out in cities across the world. Okay, thank you very much, Merica, if you want to have a closing say. Yes, I think one of your question was aren't we aren't we going to slow and I do think this is this is a time for big changes and I think we're doing it and I think what is needed is indeed to show that it's possible even if you haven't figured out completely how to do it. So my motto in working is always to give direction, but to provide space. So as a politician, I believe that yes, I should I should show the way that I think we should be going and if enough people believe that we go there. But then in order to make it happen, you need everybody to to join in in their own way of how they can do that. And I believe for example the Harbor of Amsterdam, who is a completely fossil harbor said they want to be fossil free free by 2050. And of course there was quite some work that I needed to do, but they believe they can make the change if they are the first one to say we're going to do it and we don't know how, but we are we are committed to do this. And they have a lot of talk to do with all the, you know, businesses that are that are located in the harbor. That point and I do believe they will be thriving in 2050 because they will be the first harbor that actually takes on all this innovative things that that a harbor needs. So I do think yes, at one point you have to take a point and say, this is where we're going and then provide all the space for people to actually make it happen. Okay, thank you. Well, I completely agree with what Marika said, I completely echoes that. Yes, peer to peer. That is, as Kate said, that's the approach. I want to actually go visit Amsterdam and I want to share good practices. So with other European cities, and I really do hope that it's going to be possible soon that we will be able to see each other face to face. And then it's also creating a sort of positive competition. And of course, I mean, comparing the Port of Brussels and the Port of Amsterdam is somewhat ludicrous. We're on a much smaller scale here, but still, this is a challenge that we would like to take up. And yes, I think that competing with each other for the greater good is really the way forward. And so I really hope that I can see you very soon face to face, and that we will keep up the good work. I think it was also very good to see that a lot of people were interested, and I want to end with two practical things. One, Kate, there was a certain person I heard saying just recently a crime for survival comes from the planet itself. He was called Joe Biden. I hope he invites you. Wouldn't that be marvelous. Just to say that actually in December, I was invited to present donut economics to Joe Biden's treasury transition team. So the ideas have had the ideas have floated in so let's see what happens. Great. Thank you very much.