Everyone, StreamYard tells us that we are live right now. And if we are live, I'm gonna wait for our chat room to tell us for sure that we're live because you never really know. You never really know. You can start talking and it never goes anywhere. And if you talk to a stream that goes nowhere, did you ever really talk? This is a philosophical question. If you are watching right now at this very moment, this is the live podcast recording of This Week in Science. And if you're watching it, yay, thanks, Shoebrew. Thunderbeaver sees a Kiki and an Aaron. Yes, it looks live, very good. If you're watching right now, any technical blips and bleeps or gaffes at any point may be edited out for the podcast itself. So you are watching the unedited version of the show. Enjoy. This is where you come to see the live unedited, unrated version. Exactly. But I think we're ready to start the show. So let us begin. You're ready, Aaron? I'm ready. Okay, fantastic. Let us begin in three, two, this is twists. This Week in Science, episode number 778, recorded on Wednesday, June 17th, 2020. How to find a lizard. Hi there, I'm Dr. Kiki. And tonight on This Week in Science, we will fill your head with bubbles, Santa and lizards. But first, with Keen, oh wait, what am I doing? There's no Justin. I don't know what I'm doing anymore because there's no Justin. Disclaimer, disclaimer, disclaimer. With keen eyes and quick reflexes, you might just be able to find and catch that lizard in your garden, be gentle enough, and maybe, just maybe it won't drop its tail. But if it does, you haven't failed. You've seen the magic of biology as generations of adaptations and evolution have led it to a survival strategy that works more often than not, we hope. Just like weeding through that podcast directory has brought you to This Week in Science. Coming up next. I've got the kind of mind that can't get enough. I wanna learn at new discoveries that happen every day of the week. There's only one place to go to find the knowledge I seek. I wanna know- Good science to you. And welcome, everyone, to this episode of This Week in Science. Thank you for joining us. We have a great show ahead. And on this week's show, we have tons of science news and an interview. I have stories about sponges for COVID. Wait, what, sponges? I don't know about that. Bubbles and Santa.  And unfortunately, we're going to miss them. I hope they get their needed rest and that they are able to get back in the game on the show next week, you know, for the usual twist banter.  Tell them you miss them. But in the meantime, we have gained a guest host. And originally she was like, I'll step in. And now she's really having to step in. Yeah. Yeah, I'd love to introduce our guest host for the night, Erin McGee. Erin is a PhD candidate at the University of Arizona. And also in AAAS, that's the American Association for the Advancement of Science, if then Ambassador, and also a AAAS Mass Media Fellow. And she loves lizards. She's a herpetologist on a mission to get people to love lizards. Thank you for joining the show tonight. Thank you for having me. Super excited. Yeah, definitely caught me a little off guard here, but we're gonna have a good time. If that opening was getting everything ready for what this night is gonna be about. And so it's gonna be a lot of fun. All sorts of fun. Oh no, did she crash? Am I crashed? Maybe she'll come back because we need the lizards. Is it me? Oh, am I back now?  Okay, good. There you are. There you are. Yeah, I was just saying that I was super excited to be here tonight. That's fantastic. I'm excited to have you here. We met at the AAAS annual meeting this year. And it was wonderful to get to meet you in person because I've been following your Twitter account for quite a while with your hashtag Find That Lizard, which we will talk about in a little bit. Hey. Yeah, but did you bring a show for the story tonight? I did. So we're gonna talk a little bit about lizards and their reactions to the clothes that people wear. All right, I didn't think that lizards were interested in fashion, but we will find out more about that in just a little bit. As we all jump into the show here, I want to remind you that if you haven't subscribed to the TWIST podcast yet, it's a great place to get your weekly science and you can find us on just about every podcast platform that's out there, also on YouTube and Facebook. Look for This Week in Science or TWIST, T-W-I-S. You can visit our website, TWIST.org, for more information. But now let's move into the science and dive headfirst into our weekly COVID update, which, you know, that's always fun. Yeah, we're a definition of fun there. I find strange things fun, it's true. No, it is an ongoing pandemic that we are all having to deal with around the globe, but in particular, let's talk about what is happening in the United States and also what is happening when it comes to some of the drugs and the science that is out there. Currently, we are looking at COVID-19 numbers starting to go back up a bit. There's been a waning for a little while. We started to open back up. The lockdowns and social distancing were reduced and a lot of places kinda jumped back into it a little bit too quickly, perhaps. And so currently, globally, COVID-19 cases are over eight million individuals confirmed, diagnosed, with nearly 450,000 deaths globally, of which the U.S.'s contribution is about a quarter, about 25% of that 450,000, just here in the United States. So if we can, let's continue to maintain the non-pharmaceutical interventions to preserve health. We know that wearing masks reduces the spread of these viral particles, so does social distancing, which is, if you're gonna stand and talk to somebody, maybe talk with them six, 12 feet apart. You can stand at one end of your car, each of you at the other end of the car, or whatever you find works for you. Use also proper hygiene. There was a lot of talk this week about flushing toilets and COVID on Twitter. Did you see any of those stories, Erin? I did, I did come across that, and I was just like, well, I'm glad that I put the toilet seat down before I flush every time and clean my bathroom regularly, because that is horrific. And it's not just a COVID issue. So we have viruses, norovirus is one of the big ones that is a huge issue, and we know that flushing the toilet, it vaporizes a lot of water, there's lots of droplets that end up in the air and they float around in the air in your bathroom. So if you have a lid, put it down. Clean your bathroom as often as you can. Practice good hygiene. These are things that will protect you and your family, not just from COVID, but from lots of viruses. And when we continue down that road of, where else are there toilets? Maybe minimize your time in public restrooms where there are no lids to put down when you flush, or if you are unable to do that, make sure that you're not going into the bathroom, maybe where there's a line for the bathroom or with multiple people. You don't need to have the party bathroom. And maybe some places could start thinking about retrofitting their bathrooms, because one of the things that I hate is when I'm in the airport and I have all my stuff with me and you can't just leave it sitting out somewhere. And I'm in the bathroom and I'm just like, okay, I gotta hurry up and do what I gotta do because as soon as I stand up, this thing is gonna automatically flush on me and the things are gonna be on me and I don't want them. And it causes me so much stress and I'm just like, how can I be fast about this while also pulling all of my stuff from outside of this bathroom and getting out the door, so much stress. I am right there with you.  Oh my goodness. So moving away from bathrooms, let's talk about some of the health, the treatments that are out there right now. This last week also, a press release came out of the UK about a study looking at a drug called dexamethasone. And dexamethasone is a steroid. It has been used for years to treat inflammation, which many steroids are used to do. And doctors are already using it to one degree or another to treat patients who are on ventilators who have COVID-19 to reduce the inflammation that may be caused simply by the ventilators themselves. But this was a fairly large study and the statistics that were released through the press release suggested that it's very promising is the first drug really that has the potential to actually save lives. It's not going to save everyone's lives, but approximately one out of every eight people who is so ill with COVID-19 that they end up on a ventilator will be saved by the use of dexamethasone according to this research. So I have a question. So I would assume there's different stages of being on the ventilator where you're in super respiratory failure versus it's not quite that bad. So did the study say anything about that as far as how effective the drug would be? It wasn't broken down that rigorously in this because what we're looking at, like I said, it was a press release. So they got to the stage in this clinical study where the control group that did not receive dexamethasone was dying significantly more often or at least statistically significantly more often than the group that was receiving the dexamethasone. And so ethically, they said, we have to give everybody the drug because we have to offer, we have to hope that it will help more people. So they found a level of significance that suggested to them it's useful. However, we have not yet seen a peer reviewed study. The data hasn't been released to the public yet. So we don't know anymore. We do know that it's not useful or doesn't seem to be very useful on people in early stages of the disease. So if you are asymptomatic, presymptomatic, you're just slightly ill, not having to go into the hospital, you don't need it. It's not gonna help you. That's really weird because typically, well, a lot of those times it's either you have the disease or you don't have it, not you have to have it to a certain degree. So the fact that it doesn't work if you are just in the beginning stages, you have to go through a certain point. That's really interesting. Yeah, and people are saying they think it might actually be that it's reducing the inflammation that comes from that artificial ventilation itself. And maybe it is some aspect of that very late, only in that very late stage with some people who have a particular immune response and inflammation response. So this week, it's promising, but it's not the treatment that's going to save everyone. So don't rush out and hoard dexamethasone. Right. We don't want you doing that. Like people who ran out to hoard hydroxychloroquine, which is a malaria drug that was touted by the Trump administration. And in fact, in the months that we've gone through since that announcement was made that hydroxychloroquine is promising and we should use it to treat people, more data has come out that actually, no, it's not. And there are some big studies that have been totally shut down. The World Health Organization just stopped a study that involved hydroxychloroquine because they did not see a benefit. So they were like, we're just not even gonna do this study anymore because we aren't seeing anything. So it's probably hurting people more often than it's helping them. And the FDA just this last week revoked its emergency approval of the drug for treating COVID-19. So this week has been a kind of this odd week, hydroxychloroquine is out, dexamethasone is in. And I think also I saw an article saying that the United States government had pulled its weight to gather a large stockpile of hydroxychloroquine. So now we have it or we are gathering it at the moment, we've probably paid for it and are getting it. So it'll be useful when malaria becomes a problem in the Southern United States. Isn't it also used for like lupus and stuff other? Yes. So like for all the people who weren't able to get their medication because of the hysteria, it would be great if you know, hand out a couple of boxes for free for the people who were made to suffer for no reason essentially. It's like make sure that they're good for the next six months to a year. I'm with you, I think that would be great. Can we make that happen? Right. Oh my gosh. And then my final COVID story, I wanted to get away from these kind of political drug stories and into what I thought was an interesting possible treatment or possible prevention. And this particular story, it could help with a lot of diseases, which is really hopeful. So these researchers at UC San Diego are working on what they call nano sponges.  And so it's not like a sponge in the sense of what you put on your kitchen counter, but in the sense of the mechanical absorption or the way that it can grab things, that it attracts things. And this polymer has around the outside of it, it's been seeded with particles or figments of epithelial lung cells. They've also covered these polymer cores with little bits of macrophages. And so we've got these epithelial cells, which SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes COVID-19, likes to bind to and likes to infect. And the macrophages are these immune cells, which like to attack the virus. They've tested this in mice, in what they do is they aspirate or they put these little tiny nano particles that are basically, they become competitors for the virus's attention. So where the virus would normally go into the lung and bind to the lung epithelial cells, instead there's a whole bunch of these little sponges in there. And they're like going, hey, I'm a lung cell too. And the virus goes, I can't tell the difference, but since there's so much competition, they are more likely to get grabbed by the sponges. And so this is, it's a really neat thing. They were able to create, or they were able to make it so that the virus lost about 90% of its viral infectivity, became 93% less infectious using these nano sponges with the lung material on them. And there was about 88% reduction in infectivity with the macrophage parts on them. And they've tested this before with HIV, they've tested it with different, with MERS, they've tested it with different kinds of microbes as well. And basically the idea is that, and what I'm imagining it as is in the future, if this were to become a treatment that works in people, they showed that it works in mice, so now we still have a long way to go. But I can imagine if you are an immune compromised person or someone who has a potential medical disability that will predispose you to becoming infected by COVID, then you might have a little asthma inhaler that has these nano sponges in it. And if you know you're going into a public environment, going outside somewhere where you're gonna be around people, you can take a little puff of the nano sponges, they'll be in your lung, and then you can go out and interact, still wear your mask and take precautions. But if you do get exposed to any of the virus, it's more likely that the nano sponges would grab onto it. And then because the nano sponges are in there, your body's own immune system will then grab onto and break down the nano sponges and just get rid of them. So it's kind of just like allergy medicine for COVID. Exactly.  It's a great idea. And I love the idea of being able to take something prophylactically. They're also talking about with some diseases, and this could possibly work with people who already have COVID and have advanced to hospitalization that perhaps in the ventilator, they have some of these nano sponges in the air that you're breathing, and maybe that can help to reduce the viral load in your lungs. Maybe it can compete with what's in your body, or maybe they can even inject some of these particles into your bloodstream, if it's something that you want to grab out of the blood. Yeah, it will be interesting to see how people's bodies like accept or reject those particles, because then it becomes a thing of, how much of a dosage do you have to give to account for people's bodies potentially, being like, oh, we need to get this out right now. Yeah. I mean, I am just going to cough it up. That's the point, yeah. But it's a really, I think it's a really interesting idea, and I love the, it's a novel approach to addressing viruses and these diseases. And the researchers are really, they've been working on this platform for probably about a decade, but, and they said, oh, let's test it with SARS and it works really well. So the big question is, can they actually get it to work in the human body? Can they make it safe? Well, this is a totally new virus doing something completely wild, so maybe a really wild idea is what it's gonna take to beat it. Yeah, I'm all for wild ideas. I like it. Try it all out, throw the spaghetti at the wall, see what sticks, right? Right. All right, I have finished my COVID news, everyone. And I'm sitting here, and I'm speaking with Erin, and I introduced her just a little bit, but I am sure so many of you right now are going, I don't know Erin, who's Erin? So I would, would you mind being interviewed so much right now? Can I ask you a few questions? Yeah, for sure. Fantastic. So first off, lizards. Where did your love of lizards come from? So when I was an undergraduate student at Howard University, the person's lab who I ended up working with in George Menendorf, he was a herpetologist, he studied lizards. And so then I got to go out to the Chiricahua Mountains and do some field research. And that was really like my first field experience. And I was like, yeah, this is for me. I love this. And so I never, like the way I see it is that lizards picked me. I didn't really pick lizards because as a kid, I was like, I want to work with elephants. I want to work with wolves or foxes or something cool like that. Lizards were nowhere on my radar. I did not think about lizards at all. But then I got the opportunity to work with them. And I was like, oh, they're all right. They're kind of decent. Yeah. So you were into animals. Yeah. I was super into animals. And it was the bane of my mom's existence because I would be like, look, mom, I found a snake. Or look, mom, I caught this lizard. Or mom, I see a rabbit over there and I'm going to go chase it. And or like one time, one time we went to DC and we were going to the Lincoln Memorial. I was like, I was real young. I had to be in like maybe middle school or something. And I was like, mom, I'm going to go climb the tree. And she kept being like, no, don't do that. What is wrong with you? I was like, mom, I'm a tree climber. I do this. And so I go and I try to climb this tree. I slide down, bump my head on the branch. And I'm like, you know what, it's fine, whatever. I'm going to keep going. I look up and it's like a spider the size of my head. Like just right. And I'm just like, what do I do?  I just like started crying. That's what spiders do, right? Right, but I was a kid. And I, you know, like, yeah, I was a kid. My brain wasn't putting things together correctly. And my mom was just like, that's what you get. That's what you get for climbing the trees. I told you not to do it. I don't know. I think as kids, we have to go. Kids have to look at their parents. You as a parent, you give the advice and the kids just sometimes they got to do what they have to do to learn. Right. Yeah, I did. I don't I don't think I climbed a tree for a really long time after that, mostly because I was mostly because I was like terrified of spiders as a kid. But when I had to start doing research and field work, it was one of those things where it's like, no matter what you do, there's always a spider on you. You might not see it, but it's probably there. And so I just kind of had to like get used to it. And so now, now when I see a spider, I'm not afraid of it. I'm like, I can actually like appreciate it. Like people like post pictures of like the little jumping spiders. And I'm like, oh, those are actually really cute. I love the jumping spiders. Yeah, the spider dances. I'm not a big fan of the the really poisonous ones. But right, that's a work up to it. Got to work up. Yeah, I mean, not everyone is like Australia caliber spider. Right. And the spider. But with the the lizards, how did you how did you start figuring out kind of what questions you're interested in and what what lizards you want to look at and what specifically what what specifically like, do you do you really want to know about them? So when I was an undergrad, I was looking at three species of lizards, Yarl spiny lizard, the striped plateau lizard, and then the ornate tree lizard. And I was looking at their micro habitat preferences. So I had about two years worth of my own data that I collected. And then my undergraduate advisor, he had been going out there for like 40 plus years, so I use a couple of years of his data. And so we kind of like confirmed what was already out in the literature. But then we also like looked at the distance that the lizards move. So most lizards don't move like more than five meters in there. Like during like when they're just out and about like they might move a long distance if they're if it's like this like the end of the end of the summer and going or into the fall and they're going into a hibernacula. So like the place where they overwinter and whatnot. So like they might, depending on the size of the lizard and the gender or the in the sex of the lizard, it might take a long time to it might be further away from the hibernacula than some of the others. But in general, they don't really move more than like five meters. And so that was really cool. And so I knew that I wanted to stick with natural history questions like that. And then my advisor, Michael Bogan, he is an aquatic entomologist. And so my undergraduate advisor was just like, you need to go work with Michael. I already worked with him. He's a great guy. That's the person who you're going to work with.  I can't go all the way to Arizona. Right. And then me and Michael like kind of like sat down and started like talking and he was just like, listen, if lizards are your jam, that's cool. But just figure out how you can mix lizards with aquatic insects. And so that's kind of where the birth of my study question. Because like me and him, we like, like we kind of just like meshed. I was just like, like it was just like, and I was like, OK, I guess I'm going to Arizona. Yeah, I'm going there like nobody else who I talked to, like I was really like quite as like instantly comfortable with. So I was just like, OK, this guy is going to have my back. He's really going to help me like evolve as the scientist in the ways that I want to. And so I'm going to go work with him. So that's kind of where my study questions came from. So I'm really interested in lizard diet. So like, what are lizards eating? And so like, if I asked you that, what would you say? If I asked you, what do lizards eat? They bugs. Right. But what kind of bugs? Mods, because I've seen videos of them eating mods and butterflies. They and where and where do those malls and malls and flies come from? Oh, they come from aquatic environments. Maybe. Maybe. We don't come from that. That's what I'm that's what I'm hoping to figure out. So there's been a couple of papers that look at lizard diets and where those insects come from. But there hasn't been like a whole lot of that. So there's been a lot of lizard diet papers, but they've been like a lot of like gut pumping and stuff like that. So they're just like, OK, we have a piece of a mall swing here. So this is a mall and there's like this looks like a fly. Like, so no one's done like that real deep analysis to look at are these insects, are any of these insects that they're eating aquatic and like how important is aquatic species? And that's really important information to know because in the Southwestern United States, we're having like a lot of climate change and a lot of drought and it's getting a lot hotter. And so the streams are drying up.  And so then they can't emerge from the larval stage to the adult stage and then live in the terrestrial area and then be food for a whole bunch of animals. So like lizards are my particular sized species. I love them, but they're like birds eat aquatic insects. You have like small mammals will eat aquatic insects.  Like there's a whole bunch of stuff that do eat these aquatic insects. Aquatic insects are an important like food source to a lot of animals. But those aquatic to terrestrial like things moving from the aquatic system to the terrestrial system. And a whole lot of studies haven't been done on that. A lot of studies been done on the reverse of terrestrial stuff falling into water and then becoming food for various aquatic things. Yeah. So those studies have been done, so we need to do it in the reverse. So for my study, I go out into the Chiricau mountains because when I was an undergrad, I just fell in love and I was like, well, I'm going to do my grad work here because it is fabulous and I love it. And these lizards are awesome. So I typically spend five weeks or two months or so in the mountains. And every day is Lizard Catching Day with maybe a break here or there.  And my role is to see a lizard catch a lizard. That is like, do not let that thing get away. If the lizard is like running, you need to be running behind it to catch it or if it's like if the lizard is giving you trouble, like call for somebody so you can like tag team it. Because like sometimes it takes more than one person to catch a lizard. So I think that's a that's a motto right there. It takes more than one person to catch a lizard. Yeah. But but how do you go? I mean, I come the the field experience I have is in catching birds. And so we had misnets. We had like food traps. We had very specific ways to be able to catch the birds. And I I did not have to run after them.  Yeah, lizards or, you know, geckos or not geckos. What are the skinks catching the blue bellied skinks with the little nooses? But I'm imagining you have more refined methods. Oh, yes. So so fancy. Give me one second. I actually have some stuff here. How do you catch a lizard? I love props. So we'll get some hot rod in the chat room. That's that's a long time ago. It's in my past. It's true, though. All right. So I actually have a lizard lasso with me. So you have you use lizard lassoes? Yes. So I'm going to try to bring it close here. Hopefully you can see. I'm going to pin you to the screen. OK, there's a little lasso at the end. And so let's see. Can you see that? I can. Yeah. So it's a piece of thin thread. Is what kind of thread is that? So this is actually braided surgical silk. You can't get this like in the spools anymore. So my advisor like bought it in bulk at some point. And then he like gave me some. And so now this is very special. It is. It is very special. I've had this lasso for like the entirety of my graduate career. So I've had this for like four years. What? What size? I mean, braided surgical silk is going to be really strong. Silk for one is strong. Braided is going to increase its strength and its durability. But I mean, what size lizards can you catch with this silk so that it's the lizard isn't too big and breaks the string? Um, let's see. I have a ruler here. So whether it's good to be about like, let's see, that says like 12ish centimeters. Like they they can get pretty big. They can they can be pretty big bodies. So like that's see from the ruler about that big. So they're not like super huge. They're more like small to medium sized lizards. You definitely cannot catch large lizards with this. It just it would break. And then it helps if they are like spiny lizards. So where the spines overlap. Because if they're smooth like skinks or whipped tails, it becomes a lot more difficult and they could just like easily like slide out. Yeah. And so I am proud to say that I have a lassoed with tails on multiple occasions because it is it is quite quite the feat. So yeah, so. So do you do you find the lizard and then try and stock them and and place the lasso in a location that they might run into it or? No, so like I have my little I have my lizard here. Oh, fantastic. Demonstrating. So the thing with lizards, let me let me open this up a little bit. That's another thing you have to do in the field. You have to like adjust the size of the lasso, depending on the species of lizard or the size of the lizard. So you'll have a lizard and then some lizards. So lizards have different personalities and you'll find that out as soon as you like start to approach the lizard.  So some lizards will be like like you'll bring the lasso to it and it will just sit there and let you get it around its head or like it'll see fill it and then it'll like start whipping it around and because it's like thinks it's a spider's net or something. Spiders web or they'll see like the little there's like the little knot right here. They'll think that that's like a fly and there's a and that it's food.  And then there's other lizards, like tree lizards that will bask on like rocks at the base of trees. And as soon as they see you coming, they'll like guard up the tree. And so the great thing about this is this particular lasso this rod is that it's telescopic so it can you can lengthen it. How of however long that it goes. So this one is. It used to be six point six meters, but I broke broke off a part. So now it's a little bit shorter than that. It's gotten some good use. Yeah, it has. So then you all have to like like reach up. And so like something that you can do really is so with the different segments or I guess with the the longest segment that is out there, you can use that to like hurt the lizard. So if like a lizard is trying to go up, you can like herd it back down so it'll see this come above it and they'll turn around and go down. You hope sometimes it might like go around the tree.  If those are the games you want to play, we can do that. But it's not. Where do you find lizards? Like you said, some of them bask in the sun under on a rock. I know fence lizards like to sit on fences. But are the do you go? Do you go go turn over pieces of wood to go searching for your lizards? Or are they usually out in the open? So my lizards are typically more out in the open. So they like to like bask on rocks or fallen logs and things like that. It really does depend on the species for like tree lizards and like Clark spiny lizards. They definitely stay on the rocks, close to trees. And then as soon as they hear you coming, they'll dart up the tree. For Yaro spiny lizard, I mostly find them on like rock outcrops. So like, like if it's like a like a wall type thing and it has a bunch of rocks, you'll see them on there. You'll see them on like different boulders and stuff like that. With the striped plateau lizard, they like to like dig. And so you'll see them on the ground. Whiptail lizards also like to dig through like the leaf litter. So like the leaves that fall off the trees onto the ground because that's where they find a lot of their food. And then with alligator lizards, they're really cool because they they're they look like what they're named after. They kind of like look like these itty bitty alligators. And so they kind of almost swim through leaf litter. And they kind of like try to like find their food. So like they'll go like like really slow and sometimes and like they'll have their legs like really close to their bodies. And like their back legs will be like like in line with their body. And they're kind of like swim through. And so like a lot of times people might think that they're snakes, but they're not their lizards. And they're just like really doing snake like movements to confuse people and predators. That's interesting. Is there a lot of that mimicry or that? Yeah, I guess that that would be mimicry. Yeah, so I'm not sure how how much of that there is in lizards in general. Yeah, that would be another interesting question. Right. So you mentioned before the micro habitats that you're looking at and how the the lizards are kind of choosing these different trying to figure out how the lizards choose the micro habitats. And so I mean, I'm imagining, you know, as a as an analogy and let me know if this is accurate or not. But, you know, I live in Portland and there are different neighborhoods in Portland and, you know, five meters to me might be like my city block to a lizard. So is that like the block of houses and area and those all the stuff that's in that? Is that would that kind of be the similar scale? Or would it be kind of like, oh, we've got the downtown neighborhood and these lizards who hang out downtown, they're a bit they're a bit tougher. They like to hang out in the financial district. Um, I, you know, that's a good way of thinking about it that I never really thought about it before. Um, I don't I I never really looked to see if there was any like personality difference based on where the lizards were living at. So I can't really say, I don't know. All right. Yeah. And the someone in the chat room had brought up. You mentioned the word hibernaculum.  But can you describe a lizard's hibernaculum for me? I mean, it's kind of like a vampire's cave. When you think about like with all the bats flying out from where they roost at, it's kind of like the same thing for lizards except for they only go there to overwinter.   And then that will be a decent temperature for them throughout the winter. And they'll all just hang out there for the most part, or it might be something where they kind of go underground and hang out there.  So so they go there together and well, they might not go like together, but like they end up there, end up together. Yeah. Right. That's fascinating. I yeah, I just I've always imagined lizards just kind of digging into the dirt and ending up underground or actually I actually to be honest, I don't think I've ever considered where lizards go in the wintertime.  They do that. They have these nice boroughs that they spend pretty much like 90 percent of their lives in and someone in our YouTube chat room was asking if lizard diets change with the seasons. While they're hibernating, they're not eating anything. But in the other seasons, do you know if their diets change? Yes. So well, yes, ish. So well, I guess like mostly yes, because it for the aquatic insect parts. That is controlled a lot by the seasons. So a lot of insects will emerge from the stream system based on what's going on with the weather. So like in Arizona, we have monsoons season. And so a lot of aquatic insects are programmed to emerge before the monsoons because the rains will flood the stream and scorch it and pretty much kill everything that's in there. That's that tiny. And then like in some times when there's not a whole lot of like abundance of like different types of insects. So really like premonsoon season, a lot of lizards will end up eating ants. Huh, because those are pretty much always abundant. Yeah, but ants, they emerge usually emerge from underground also in the when the weather starts getting better, when the ground starts to thaw. So I guess that would probably be about the same time. Yeah, interesting. I'm wondering. I'm thinking about the the diets of the lizards.  They bite the flowers. Spiders potentially have vegetarian diets and eat plants sometimes. Sharks, sharks sometimes eat seaweed and algae. Seagrasses that some sharks will take on some vegetarian food every once in a while. Do you know, like, do lizards ever change their diet and eat? Do they need greens? So some lizards, like like iguanas and stuff where like people like feed their bearded dragons, like greens like that. But I don't know of any lizards that seek it out. They're like, I have a salad. Yeah, like not ones that are that they eat insects that will just switch it up. Not that I know of. That's really interesting. And that's definitely something that I am going to have to go Google now. Yay, awesome. Ask the ask the questions. And then if you can report back, let me know about the vegetarian vegetarian lizards out there. Recently, you were you you work a lot, not just recently, but you you do a lot of work in science communications. You started the find that lizard hashtag on Twitter, which you did today. You do every Wednesday. Yes. How did how did you get started doing that? That Twitter effort. And you know, why why are you interested in science communication? So I started on Twitter when I started grad school four years ago because my advisor, Michael, was like super into Twitter and sharing science and stuff on Twitter. And he was like, yeah, I know this person from Twitter and that person from Twitter and I collaborated from with this person who I met on Twitter. And I was like, all right, it sounds like I need to get me a Twitter so that way I could be more involved with the scientific community. And so I was just like, I hope that if people know me from Twitter, maybe they'll give me a job after I graduate, because I'm one of those people who like think like 10 years in advance at all times. And so I was like, let me just go ahead and hop on here. And so then I just kind of like started tweeting about this stuff that I knew or that I was doing and it was one of those things where I was just like, this is kind of fun. I'm actually like enjoying this. I'm enjoying having like conversations with people. And then I just kept doing it. And so and what year was it in 2018? I was doing field work and I needed to recapture this lizard. And I desperately needed to recapture her because in this particular site, it was like really lacking lizard. So if I can get another data point, that would have been great. And so like I'm literally chasing her around my study site because she will not give up. And so I'm just like, was it? Oh, my goodness. And so like I come to a point where I think that I lost a lizard and I'm looking around and I'm not seeing the lizard. And then finally, like I look over my shoulder and there she is on a tree looking at me, trying to see if I see her. And I'm like, yes, I see you see the lizard. And so because because I had already caught her, she had a paint mark on her back. And so it was the number five in a bright orange paint. And so I was like, yes, I see you. And that was the paint mark was the only reason I saw her. If she didn't have that paint mark, she would have been gone. And so I took a picture before I went and caught her. And I did catch her. I did get my extra data point. And I posted it to Twitter and I and I told people I was like, yeah, this is what happened. And this lizard was like, I wouldn't have seen her if it wasn't for this paint mark. And people were like, what lizard? What are you talking about? I don't see a lizard in this picture. And I'm just like, you don't see this. It's right there. And so people were just like, yeah, this is fun. And they were like, you should keep doing this. And so I was like, well, I guess I'll post a picture and now I have to start thinking about interesting things to post with a picture. And so I had also started taking like some science communication classes. And so I was just like, how is a way that I can frame this information so that like anybody who reads it can understand it, whether you know, they're like six or like 66 or whatever. I want to make sure that everybody was able to like learn something new and have fun doing it. And so then I just I just started being consistent and I just kept doing it every week pretty much. And and then it just took on the life of its own and grew from there. I think it's fantastic. How much how how much interaction do you get from people? What what kinds of interactions do you get from people? So nowadays, I get a lot of interactions. When I first started, I didn't really get that many. But I love the find that lizard community because they are so funny, they are hilarious. And and people just like tell me like stories about like lizards that they've encountered or the ones that they see in their backyards and stuff. And people get like excited about like finding the lizard because like it's one of those things where like if I tell you about it, you're like, that's goofy. I don't even know why somebody would do that. And then like like people have been like, what what is wrong with you? Give me your phone so I can see it and I'm a fine lizard. And then they're like sitting there for like five minutes, like looking for the lizard. And I'm just like, and they're like, I'm like to have my phone back. And they're like, no, I have to find it first. And I was like, OK, all right. And so like it ends up being one of those things where it's like you feel a type of way if you can't find it. And so like it kind of bruises your ego a little bit if you can't find the lizard in the picture. And so it gets people like really engaged and people talk about if they found it or not, or if they had to cheat and look through the comments. And it's just a great way to like talk to people about lizards and stuff. So it's pretty fun. There have been times when I posted a picture and like I was so focused on the lizard that was my subject that I didn't notice like another lizard had photo bombed and people are like, hey, there's another lizard in this photo. And I'm like, no, there's not. Like it was like a period of like a couple of months where like this one person would just be like, yeah, I found another lizard in the photo. And I'll be like, gosh, darn it. And I'll be like, sometimes I'd be like, yeah, you did. And other times I'd be like, no, you're just you just want there to be another one. There's not another one here. Yeah, someone Fada in the chat room was saying it's like the where's Waldo of lizards. Yeah. And you find them in there. Yeah, it's a one. I love it, though, as a tool for like you said, being able to talk to people about lizards and educate people about where you find lizards, different types of lizards.  Yeah, it's a great and I end up learning a lot too, because I'm like, OK, because like sometimes it's one of those things where it's like most I take about, you know, 90, like I take I take the vast majority of the photos myself. So it's like whatever lizards I can find locally. So sometimes it's like repeat species. And I'm like, all right, I got to go find some fresh information. What is something that I don't know about this lizard that I think will be really cool to know about this lizard? And so then I end up doing like some deep dives on that species, trying to figure out what is something interesting that other people might think it's interesting that I haven't already talked about. That's fantastic. Yeah, this is great. I have been looking at sometimes I am able to find your lizards and sometimes I am not. There's an image that's up on the screen for those of you who are watching the video right now. I don't I don't know where that lizard is. Listen, when I was taking the photo, like I have the camera up and I have to keep being like, is the lizard still there? Yeah, it is. OK, let me let me find it in the viewfinder. I can't see it. It's when I kept being like because I couldn't find the lizard myself while I was there in person. So if you like if you struggle, it's it's OK. I did too. All right. All right. So everyone, if you're interested, you can follow the hashtag. Find that find that lizard on Twitter.  It's Afro underscore Herper, H-E-R-P-E-R. Awesome. Another aspect of your your science communication last was it last week or now days are running together. Yeah, but you were one of the people responsible for the Black Birders Week. Yes, that was amazing. Can you talk a little bit about, you know, what brought you to to to get that started and, you know, how you organized it and, you know, some of the things that came out of it that were hopefully really positive. But I like the positive stories. I hope I hope it was a very positive experience for you. Um, yeah, it was positive in a way. So shout out to Jason Ward. He's kind of like the guy who brought us all together and kind of started the Black AFN STEM group. And so we had been in that group and talking and getting to know each other for, you know, a long time over a year. And we're we all kind of like we're watching like the Christian Cooper incident in Central Park together. And then hearing about Ahmaud Arbery and Breonna Taylor and George Floyd. And and we were all kind of feeling upset because it was just like. Though any of those people could have easily been us and we don't see enough of our peers and the scientific community and academia talking about this violence against Black people. And and and we were like a part of that reason is because, like, they don't they don't really realize that we're there. And how many of us are there?  So we started the week out with Black in Nature. And that was just about promoting anybody that it likes being outdoors. That's that identifies as a Black person, African American, whoever. Like it was about uplifting them, increasing the representation, being like, yeah, we might be spread out. We might not all be in one department, like 50 deep in one department or something. But there's still a lot of us and we are here. And so we want to everybody to feel included because a lot of the people who were helping to organize Black Birders Week like myself are not technically birders. Like now I'll call myself like a baby birder because they really got me into it. But like I wasn't really a birder going going into it. So we wanted to make sure that we included everybody. And so. We were doing all these fun activities, post the bird and post your favorite bird fact. And I did instead of doing cash, I find that lizard. I did find that bird. We had a couple of live streams on Facebook. We had some on Instagram where we were all just kind of like hanging out. The Facebook ones had Christian Cooper and Drew Lanham, who was another prominent birder in New York.  And so we're just like, well, we need to also make sure that we are specifically uplifting these people as well. And so we ended up getting a lot of media attention, which was great. And we also got the attention of our peers in academia and science and wildlife, you know, people who are working in, you know, different government or NGO agencies and stuff where we're just like, listen, you guys are always talking about how you want to do diversity, equity and inclusion stuff. But you have to if you're going to do that, you have to embrace all of the parts of what it of the Black experience. And part of that Black experience is is experiencing, you know, police brutality and anti-Black racism. Like that is a part of it. And you can't ignore that part if you want to bring people into the community. You need to be able to really understand who people are. And also you need to know that we are here. So like when you start like looking for diverse candidates to hire, like you know that we're out here now. There's no other excuse like in order to like build community, you need to bring those people in there and change the environment. And so it was one of those things where it's like you need to recognize like how society treats Black people and how you being a part of society, you bring that into science and how to stop doing that. And also speaking of like hiring Black people, shout out to Danielle Bellini, who's commenting in Facebook. She's looking for a job right now. She's an awesome, awesome ecologist. And she has worked with a bunch of different animals, mammals, birds, you name it, she can do it. But yeah, so it was it was a great experience in the in the fact that we were all able to come together and and do this really awesome thing in two days. Like like it's like we developed this whole week in two days. We started like contacting media outlets like the day before it was supposed to happen and everything. And it was it was just an amazing way to really also get to know like people in the group and stuff. And like right now, things feel like they might be a little bit different. A lot of times it's like you do advocacy work and you don't feel like anything's actually come out of it. But I'm really hoping to see some actual change when everybody starts to, you know, go back after COVID, hopefully if when it if it ever ends. So, yeah, yeah. Within within science, I mean, I know from going to triple AS conferences for many years now, you know, there are more and more. There are panels on diversity, equity and inclusion.  And I think I think you're right. I think it is different. I think what's happening now is a wave that is, I mean, hopefully it's still just building and growing and is going to lead someplace really great.  I mean, that's the only way that we can that we can make things different, that we can that we can change institutions, change society. We need to change society really pretty much like that. Society is at the root of this part of the issue where it's like because the way your social upbringing, it does affect the way that you interact with people, whether you're a scientist or not. Like a lot of people are just like, yeah, science is so objective and science doesn't bring politics into things. And it's just like, no, you're human.  You don't like all of a sudden lose all your upbringing and the ways that you interact with different people just because you started doing science. No, that's not how it works.  It informs the people that you see as knowledge holders or people who are credible to give, to add to bodies of knowledge. It affects everything. I'm just like, I'm going to give you all the snaps right now. Yeah. Yes, yes, absolutely. Are you looking at where you're going to, what you're going to do next? Are there any other plans for, are you going to try and do a Black Birders Week next year? Are there, are you talking about further activities throughout this year or just new projects? You know, we have a team meeting tomorrow. Okay. And that is when we are going to discuss all of that. We actually got a lot of people asking for us to do like different variations because so many people realized that they weren't alone. Like we got so many comments from people where they were like, you know, I've been doing this job for the last, you know, you know, two, three, four, 10 years. And I really felt like I was the only Black person interested in this type of thing. And to be able to see all of these other people coming together and showing themselves, like that was super empowering for so many people. And so doing different variations is definitely on our radar. Black Birders Week will most likely come back next year. I don't want to promise anything just yet because we still have to have our meeting and all, but you know, go ahead and put it down in calendar. Awesome. I will do that. Yeah. And I mean, I think you were, you were also speaking to that experience of, you know, being an ecologist, a biologist, going out and doing field work.  And you know, as a woman going out and doing field work, I've sometimes found myself, you know, camping in a remote place with, you know, like one or two men and suddenly finding myself going, do I trust them? Right. Yeah. Is that cool? You know, and, but beyond that, there's, you know, there are so many, so many other experiences that, that, you know, people shouldn't even have to think about. Exactly. Yeah. You just want to find your lizard. You don't want to deal with, with rotten people. Right. And then it, and then it also is like a thing where it's like, you are dealing with it when you're in the field and then you're also dealing with it like, like when you're actively doing research, but then like when you're still like at these remote areas or you're visiting like these like remote towns and stuff, like you are dealing with it then, if you just want to like go out and like get like, you know, some souvenirs or something, and it's also one of those days where it's like, these people I've never really seen black people before, and then they say something or do something super racist. And it's just like, well, my day is now ruined. I'm going to go home pretty much. Hey, thanks for that. I was having a nice time until you opened your mouth. Pretty much. And so it's, it's, it's one of those constant things. Like you always have to be ready for it.  You're like, okay, I have all my permits printed out. They are taped inside this book. This book is going into the bag, and then I'm taking the bag with me and it's going to stay. Nope, she froze for another second. No. See, maybe her computer has a glitch like my does on an hourly basis. Stay with me. Am I back now? You're back. Yeah. That is so weird. I don't know what it is. But yeah, so like you definitely have to like already have your plan done in advance where you're just like, well, if I have these things with me, they cannot question my credibility, hopefully. So, but then you also try to like, just enjoy the work that you're doing and enjoying nature. And so it's like, you have it in the back of your mind. If it need be, if you got to pull it out, but then when you're actually doing stuff, you're just trying to be there in the moment and enjoy it. Which is what really, it's why you're out there. Exactly. Yeah, to learn about it, to enjoy it. I'm going to take us into the second half of our show. Thank you so much for telling me all about your work and talking about your experiences and the science communication that you're doing and working on growing the Black wildlife community, the Black in STEM community, the Black birders, baby birder. Yeah. Yeah, such great information. So everyone, if you just tuned in, this is This Week in Science. If you are interested in an item of twist merchandise, a twist face mask, a mug, a shirt, one of the fun things with a twist logo on it or one of Blair's pieces of original animal art, head over to twist.org and click on our Zazzle Store link. That will take you to our Zazzle Store, where you can peruse and buy fun twist-related items and support This Week in Science. Things you've heard from more than intuition A lot of stories that shows the way to go Thank you for listening to Twist. You are the reason that we are able to do what we do every week. You are the reason that we are able to update you on the news, to talk about science, the current events that are going on, and to talk about the world, the society that encompasses that science, what we do. And with your help, we can do even more. That's right. We can bring a sane perspective to this world full of misinformation with science and you can help us do that. Head over to twist.org, click on our Patreon link, join our Patreon community and choose your level of support, $10 a month or more. You will be thanked by name at the end of the show and you can be a part of bringing sanity and science to more people. Thank you for your support. We really couldn't do this without you. Can explain things you've heard more than intuition, the line of recent shows. And we are back. This is This Week in Science. All right, everybody. I think it's time for some more science news. Hey, Erin, you wanna hear about some bubbles? Yes, I love bubbles. Bubbles are like the top stressful lever. So if you're really stressed about something and you need a break, go get you a bottle of bubbles and like literally just start blowing bubbles and I promise you, you will be so much calmer and stress-free when you're done. Bubbles, in addition to being a stress reliever and a child entertainer, they are also potentially going to be a pollinator. Yes, yes. Pollinator. Bubbles. Bubbles, exactly. So honeybees, bumblebees are in decline and it is becoming more and more difficult for different parts of agriculture for flowers, for trees that need to be pollinated to find the bees that they need and in Japan, for some flowers, the growers of the flowers actually hand pollinate the flowers with paint brushes. They dip the paint brushes in pollen and then tap, tap, tap and pollinate the flowers. However, it's extremely wasteful.  It uses a lot that is wasted and so researchers have been trying to figure out how they might be able to make it more efficient. Also, the bees sometimes actually damage the flowers when they are pollinating them because, like I mentioned a bit earlier, bees sometimes eat the bits of the plants that they pollinate and that the process of whatever they're doing in there sometimes leads to misformed flowers and fruits, which if you were trying to sell that flower or the fruit as food, that's not gonna go very far as far as a sale. So it reduces the ability of the farmers to be able to make money. So they're like, all right, what are we gonna do? We've got the bees who hurt the flowers sometimes and then we've also got the bees that are declining in numbers. So these Japanese researchers at, where are they? The Japanese Advanced Institute of Science and Technology basically got a four centimeter long toy drone and attached a bubbler to it to pollinate flowers. They glued horse hairs underneath the drone to make the hairs kind of, and they made them kind of sticky and then the idea was just as on a bee, the hairs would pick up pollen from one flower and deposit it on another. But then those horse hairs were damaging the flowers and so then they went, all right, let's do something else. And the researcher is a father and was playing with bubbles with his young son. He said, oh, look at these bubbles. This could be the solution. And so hit on this possibility and started testing in the lab bubbles, blowing bubbles that had been mixed with pollen at the flowers and they found that it worked. And so yes, they did end up creating a drone with a bubble maker that then flew over some flowers to show that there's the possibility of drone bubble delivery to pollinate flowers.  So are they like, I'm confused. I'm trying to visualize it in my mind. So how did the bubbles pick up the pollen? So what they're doing is they're mixing the pollen with the, they have pollen already, they're not picking it up from one and picking it to another. And they are, yeah, they're basically mixing pollen with the bubbles and then blowing the bubbles. And the bubbles then land on the flowers in the right place to be able to pop and drop the pollen in. That makes so much more sense. Cause I was like, how are they getting pollen on the bubbles without popping the bubbles? And then, and then transporting the bubbles to someplace else and getting them right where they want them to be. I was so confused. That would be an amazing bubble skill, but I don't think that's what they're doing. The, yeah, they found that the bubble pollinated the fruits were just as good as other fruits that had not been bubble pollinated. In addition, they found that this method of bubble pollination is more efficient than the paint brushes than they had been using. It doesn't waste as much pollen. So it's potentially a more efficient method. The researchers are also looking into various mixes that are biodegradable so that the residue that's left on the plants after the pollination breaks down fairly quickly and isn't left or to affect the plant in any way. Seems like wind can easily disrupt this process.  Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean, I'd say there are maybe specific uses for a bubble pollination. I mean, I'm trying to imagine the release of a large number of bubbles over an orchard. Right. You have an industrial scale bubble, bubble blower. Listen, my dog would be so upset with me if I did not buy a bubble or an industrial sized bubble blower because bubbles is like one of his favorite things. Right. Oh my gosh, attack the bubbles. Right. Yeah, but that would have been, you know, really useful. Like when I was planting my squash and I was just like, well, how come I'm not getting any actual zucchini? What's going on?  What do you mean? And so then it took me forever to get some zucchini, but you know, that would have been like way more, that would have been way much cooler, much more fun way to do it. It would have. Now you know. Now you can try it yourself. I don't know if you can use just the over the counter bubble, bubble mix to pollinate your flowers though. I'm not exactly sure of the mix that they were using. I'm so bubble, so I'm gonna try it. Then, you know, I'll have my bubble group and my no bubble group. Yeah. One of the concerns that people do have about this methodology though, is that it will distract from conserving bees. So that if we don't have, you know, if we're not worried about the bees for pollinating anymore, we've got bubbles. We don't need the bees. That then that could become an environmental nightmare. But. But then the other side of that is like we, the bees have also like distracted from like other pollinators. And so like butterflies and birds and other sorts of insects that are natural pollinators for some plants who are definitely super under looked and under studied in comparison to bees. And so that probably would also make it worse for those groups because they're already not really looked at as much as they should be or have the credit that they should have. Yeah, that's a really good point. Yeah. Maybe we should forget about the bubbles and try and just fix our ecosystems. That part. That would be great. Let's do that. All right. Tell me about some lizards. All right. Lizards fashion sense. So some lizards, there was a study done in Southern California looking at lizards to see if they would respond to the different clothing that people wear. So one of the major issues with most animals and most species in the world is that they're losing their habitat and they're having a whole lot of human encroachment and having to come into contact with humans more often. And so this could negatively impact animals like lizards because they have to spend a whole lot of energy running away from people as opposed to properly thermoregulating. So moving in and out of the sun to adjust their body temperature or finding food to eat or mates and things like that. So they're wasting a whole lot of energy on people. So this study was just like, well, maybe the lizards would have a certain reaction to like the clothes that people wear because like, let me see, where is it? There is the species confidence hypothesis is what they were basing their study on. And so it's that hypothesis has been looked at in birds and it's like the colors that the birds are used to. So the colors on their own bodies is what is gonna keep them around longer while other colors might make them run away. So the researchers were working with the Western Fence lizard. And so they were like, okay, so these lizards have, these blue patches on their throats and then on the sides of their bodies, they also have blue patches that are surrounded by black dark patches depending on the age of the lizard. And so they did like a whole bunch of what to me is super high tech stuff. And so they got these different t-shirts. And so they had a dark blue, a light blue red and a gray. And so the dark blue and the light blue were supposed to simulate the colors that are found on the lizards. And they use these tools to look at the light frequencies of the blues and compare that to the light frequencies of the blue on the lizard in order to see if they were like the same wavelength and like as close together as possible. And then the gray is also like a secondary color that's on the lizard. So the blue is what we think is used in mating for like mate choice. So like the females might look at that blue and be like, oh yeah, I like that real dark blue on this lizard. That's the lizard I wanna mate with. And with the other males, it's like, oh, that lizard has that dark blue on it. I'm not sure if I wanna challenge him to territorial debate. I might try to go to this other lizard over here where the blue is not quite as dark. And so this one's a little younger, has less experience. I'm gonna challenge that one for their territory. And so that's why the blue is more significant because it's already something that is giving clues to the other lizards as opposed to the gray where it's found on the body, but it's not giving any like communication cues. And then the red is just a color that was super opposite on the light spectrum to the blue. And so that was supposed to be like the color that will make the lizards run away faster. So like they put on these different kinds of shirts and they found that the lizards with the blues, those are the ones that did not run away as much. So like they would put on the shirt and then they would start to walk towards the lizard and then the lizard would wait a longer period of time before it would run away as opposed to like and the gray and the red shirts where as they approached the lizard, it'll run away faster. And then so those lizards that didn't run away as soon as the other ones, those were the ones that were caught more often than not and they were also the ones that were less likely to run a further distance. And so when that happens, it makes it a little bit easier to catch the lizards because lizards are really fast. If the lizard decides that it's gonna bolt and it runs like super far away, you're gonna have a hard time catching that lizard. And so they also wanted to control for lizards that are used to people versus lizards that aren't used to people. And then they didn't see any particular change there. So it was pretty much, it didn't really matter whether the lizards were used to people or not. The color of the shirt was really what determined whether or not the lizard was gonna run away or not and whether they were gonna catch the lizard or not. Are you going to use this in your field work from now on? Yeah, I'm gonna have to get me some dark blue shirts. Luckily, my lizards also use the blue coloration. Sometimes they might you have like orange or green, but for the most time, it's blue. And like I said earlier, my rule is if you see a lizard, you can catch that lizard no matter what.  You better start running. I think that's really interesting. I mean, I would have, you would think that red is like a warning color more often in nature. It's often kind of like a getaway, runaway color. So it's interesting that the gray and the red were kind of similar in that. I would not have expected that result. I would expect the red, they're just gonna run away from regardless. Right, well, I guess like, and this is just me throwing things out there here. It's just like, well, if the color is not important unless it's the blues, then it could be literally, it might be that it's like literally any other color might send them running because those are not the important colors to the lizards. Those aren't the colors that they really recognize. Yeah, just anything but the thing that I want. Right. Yeah. And that's a good rule to live by, sometimes. Sometimes it's like, you gotta set up those boundaries. I have those boundaries. Yeah. Try. Yeah. I think that stuff like this is so, I mean, stuff that has the application, it gives you, this kind of a study is so neat because it kind of gets at the lizard behavior in nature generally, but then it also has this application to how the science is done. And so it can have this kind of feedback. And so like the idea of the study was like, okay, well now you can tell people like, what color clothes to wear when they're going out looking for wildlife, if they wanna be more likely to find it, or if they wanna not be so disruptive to wildlife. So that way you can like go out on your hike, but then you're also not, scaring everything away as you walk through even more than what you might normally do. Regardless, I'm gonna scare things away. Trump, Trump, Trump.   And you're like, I just gotta get to the top of it. And so you're just like going through it. Yeah. And sometimes you're tiptoeing like a ballerina. Right. Don't disturb the lizards. Yeah. Speaking of animals and how they perceive things, there were a couple of stories that caught my eye this week that I thought were pretty interesting. The first one has to do with people, but the second one has to do with animals. And both of them are related to beliefs and how we get our beliefs and how we can think of beliefs. And the first one is a study that just came out in the proceedings of the Library of Science. Proceedings, no, Public Library of Science. Thank you, plus one. And it is a study that looked at a bunch of Australian kids compared to adults and how they rated whether or not something is real. And this was really kind of getting at the question of how well children understand the difference between real and non-real and how that understanding develops over time. We have these traditions in Western culture, things like Santa and the Tooth Fairy. And if there are any kids listening right now, parents cover their ears. But in the study, researchers compared how children rated real people like the musical group The Wiggles to other figures like Santa Claus or ghosts or dinosaurs. So ghosts are, they're not real, right? They don't exist, but dinosaurs, we've never seen them other than their fossils. So are they real? Were they real? How do we, where does that categorization actually wind up and how do we develop that belief? And so they thought that they would end up with a hierarchy between just real and unreal. But this is real, this is not real and that kids would only have that kind of a delineation. But instead, when they actually went to look at it, it was much more complicated than that. And kids actually had a very nuanced understanding of reality much more than the authors expected them to. So they categorized when they asked about, the kids to rate these things, they ranked mostly real were dinosaurs and The Wiggles, which is great. And then cultural figures like Santa and the Tooth Fairy. And then there was more ambiguous figures like aliens, dragons and ghosts. And then fictional characters that maybe they encountered through books or movies like Peter Pan or Spongebob or Elsa. And so the kids kind of categorized into these four different delineations, these very, very nuanced categorization and adults and older kids only had about three, real, ambiguous and not real. And so it's interesting that children seem to have even more of a nuanced way of looking at that spectrum between real and not real than adults do. They haven't, I guess, I'm imagining they haven't, kids haven't crystallized it yet in their heads. Right. That's just so fascinating where it's just like, and maybe it's not even that they haven't crystallized it in their heads, it's just that adults have convinced older kids of what to think. Maybe sometimes little kids might be thinking more critically than we give them credit for. And then we tell them what is right and what is wrong. I just spent some time with my little sister, she just turned 11 and sometimes she would say stuff and I was like, I never really thought about that before, her thought about that that way. So yeah, kids, I'm impressed but I'm not like super surprised. I think that's really awesome. I think it is awesome. I mean, a lot of it also does indicate like you're bringing up that the development of these ideas does depend on kind of what adults tell kids also as their older. This is what's right, this is what's wrong, this is what's real, this is what's not real. Yeah, but I mean, the interesting question is, when we have things in which there's a little bit of I guess acting that goes along with it, putting out plates of cookies or putting up stockings or these other, these kind of traditions and rituals, how does that tie into the development of that understanding of how real something is? Don't worry. Yeah. And some people go so far as to call that outright deception of children.  I mean, I guess I could see it, but I feel like deception is something where it's like you have like negative intentions where this is more of like a fun thing. And I guess like, I don't know, I've never met anyone who was super traumatized to find out some things about Santa and the Easter buddy and the Tooth Fairy. All I knew was like, when I got older and put the Tooth Fairy, I was like, well, how dare you just give me a dollar then? I feel like you owe me, I'm owed some back pay. Like now realizing how much people are worth, you owe me something. Yeah, but it's a conversation that you really are having with your parents.  I got one tooth left that's gonna fall out and I need a hundred dollars. That's good. And then this other study was related to animals and I think it's so fascinating. It was just published in the journal Mind and Language and the authors, they argue that there are criteria that we should have to understand and actually investigate animal beliefs and that they argue that animals have beliefs. And so I think that in itself is a very interesting idea because I think so often we separate ourselves from the animal world and we navigate the world with these conceptual beliefs. If I give somebody money, they're gonna give me a cup of coffee. If I, you know, there are certain things that I believe about the world works this way.  These are things that have developed over time. And so these researchers have worked out their philosophers, which I think is a very interesting way to approach this idea of animal cognition. They've worked out that animals need to have information about the world and be able to use it flexibly. And so they're able to take, and they say here, this is the case when one and the same piece of information can be combined with different motivations to produce different behaviors. So if the animal can use the information that there's food available at that moment for the purpose of eating or for hiding it, that they can make different choices about it and behave differently in different ways. And then they say also that the information has to be structured internally in a belief. And then that information can also be restructured, that it can be relinked. And they bring up evidence of rats learning the location of food in a maze and then also being able to generally understand the concept of navigating a maze to be able to find food and know that if the food's not in that location, they will find it in another location. And keep it, you know. Go ahead. That's super interesting because like you say all this and like the first thing that pops to mind is like my dog. And so I've been trying to like entertain him doing COVID by teaching him tricks. And so the latest one is rollover. So typically if I have like a treat, he's just gonna sit.  She wants me to roll over. And so then he'll just keep like rolling over until like I give him a treat. I'm like, boy, I didn't tell you to roll over. I didn't even tell you to sit. But he's just like so like programmed or he's just like, well, I know that if I sit, she'll give me a treat. And then he does it with other people. Like even if it's someone he's never met before, if he sees that they have a treat in their hand, he's like, oh, this means sit. So like I definitely do think that we don't give animals enough credit. Like for lizards also like they definitely learn if I lasso a lizard, it is exponentially harder to re-catch it most of the time because they learn what the lasso is. They're like, oh, I see you coming. I see that thing coming and I am out. I am not hanging around. I know better this time. So yeah, I think that there might be something to what those researchers or what those philosophers are throwing down here. Yeah, and I think that approaching it from this philosophical standpoint where very often in behavioral and cognitive research, it comes down to kind of mechanistic questions of say, operant conditioning or some habituation of some response. And so there are systems and mechanics to behaviors that we've been able to kind of do cause and effect investigation of, but with these criteria that they've put forward in this article, it kind of opens up the field to being able to look more deeply at the real cognition. And I think it's not beliefs in something like Santa Claus, but it is belief in the way the world works. Having an internal state, hunger, like your dog knowing there's a treat, that's a result somewhere. The belief that if I roll over, your dog has learned this, it's a bit of conditioning, but there is a internal information that is involved that leads to this belief that a result is going to happen in a particular way. And so it gets to, I think, a deeper level of what's happening in an animal's mind, which is very exciting. Yeah, I totally agree. And I definitely have to add this to my Google list because I wanna know more. Like, this is super fascinating because I always tell people like, these animals are smarter than you think they are. Like they are watching you and they are taking note. Like you need to give them some more credit. Absolutely, yes. Give the animals, I mean, seriously, if we didn't have the thumbs and the big brains, I'm like, okay, who would have been, who would have been the next dominant animal type on the planet? Would it have been a parrot? Would it have been a Corvid? Would it have been a crocodile? Who would it have been? Probably, you know, I'm thinking that probably would have been a Corvid or something like that. I get those vibes. Or even cats, it could have been cats. Cats would have been like, yeah, they barely tolerate our presence as it is. If they had just that one next step, we'd be dethroned. I know, thank goodness we feed them. Feed them, human, meow, right meow. Okay, let's dig into a couple of really quick stories. I love the idea of civilizations in other parts of the universe. And people have been trying to figure out with the Drake equation and others, how many civilizations could there be in the universe? How many civilizations as advanced as ours could there have been? And a new article has just come out and the authors addressed this question in a different way, putting new limits on the types of planets they looked at, the type of stars that they looked at. And in this article that was published in the Astrophysical Journal with their weak and strong limits for Copernican life, they estimate that not in the universe, but in the Milky Way galaxy, that's just our galaxy where we are, that there are probably about 36 civilizations that have come to the level of advancement that we have. And this is based on how long it got us. It took us to get to where we are some five billion years. And how many stars could have allowed for this? How many planets could have been in the right position to do this? We might have 36 neighbors, everyone. So it's like a nice little apartment building. Yeah, that would be super cool. Now I'm just like, well, I wonder, how similar or dissimilar are they than us?  Who's gonna be the first to get to somebody else? And how long is it gonna take somebody to get to us? Cause I don't think that we're gonna get to anybody first. Yeah, I mean the distance, they say the closest one to us is probably the nearest is at most about 17,000 light years away. So it's not any time soon that we would be able to communicate with them or be able to meet them unless somebody came up with some really amazing advanced technology that involves physics that we have no clue about at this point in time. But it could, I mean, I hope that, I don't know. I don't know if I do want to meet that planet of cats.  Little tiny pocket cats, I love it. Exactly. The planet of mice, yes, 36, 36 civilizations. And finally, for all those scientists out there and Erin, Twitter, it is a friend to scientists and according to a study that was published in an odd place for the study, the annals of thoracic surgery, a group of researchers looked at how specifically the thoracic surgery social media network, it's an effort of leading journals in cardiothoracic surgery. They looked at the results over a year of a randomized social media trial to determine the effect of tweeting on citations and non-traditional bibliometrics. And lo and behold, people who tweet are not surprised, but those articles that are tweeted get cited more. So if you're a scientist, self promote, you have to tweet your work or tell your friends to tweet your work. I saw that article on Twitter. Yes, I did too. I probably wouldn't have seen it otherwise, but I did see it on Twitter. Exactly, and the thing that I found absolutely Twitter, the ultimate Twitter is that there were people arguing about still after the article came out, still angry that tweeting would affect citations in any way and upset about the fact that they would have to tweet to get cited more, but they were tweeting. They were already tweeting, yeah. They were already tweeting.  It makes sense. The more people that you tell, the more people that might read it. I think, I mean, that's just the way it works. And if you tell more people and you get more citations, potentially that will lead you to more collaborators and more funding money. So scientists, use the tools that are available to you. Yeah. Do it. I think I've done all my stories. Do you have anything that you wanna add that you don't think we've covered here tonight? I guess the only thing that I would add is in addition to increasing the number of citations, you might get some of the great things about social media is also that you get to build a really great community. If I wasn't on Twitter, I wouldn't have been a part of Black AF and STEM because I wouldn't have really had any way of meeting those people. And I definitely wouldn't have met you. Find that lizard is what got me to that AAAS conference.  Well, thanks. I'm glad that I got to meet you also. It's been, it's just, it's great. And I get, and there is this, we get to meet in person sometimes, which is fantastic. Sometimes you say yes and come on my podcast and that's great. And the rest of the time we can watch each other and appreciate the work that we do on Twitter and help build that good community and try and create something bigger and better and tell people about science. Yeah. So everyone out there, we have come to the end of our show. We've done it. We've made it to the end. Erin, thank you. Woo! Yes, woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Thank you so much for joining me tonight on the show. It was just wonderful to get to talk to you about your lizard work. If people have questions about lizards or about AAAS and the work you're doing there or the if-then ambassadorship, where can they find you? So I'm at Afro underscore herper, H-E-R-P-E-R on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook. I also have a website, ErinMagee.com. So I think I have all my bases covered. You should be able to find me. Fantastic. And I hope people do. Thank you once again. And I would love to shout out to people who help out the show a lot. Fada, thank you for your help with social media and show notes. Gord, thank you for manning the twist chat room and identity four. Thank you for recording the audio for the show. And I'd like to thank our Patreon sponsors and the boroughs welcome fund for their generous support. Thank you too. 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On next week's show, we're gonna be talking about science on Wednesday at 8 p.m. Pacific Time, broadcasting live from our YouTube and Facebook channels and from twist.org-slash-live. If you wanna listen to us as a podcast, like I've said before, search for this week in science wherever podcasts are found. If you enjoyed the show, get your friends to subscribe too. For more information on anything you've heard here today, you can find links and show notes at our website twist.org. You can also sign up for our newsletter there. You can contact us directly via email, kirsten at thisweekinscience.com is my email, Justin is twistminion at gmail blaresblairebazz at twist.org. And as Erin said, you can find her at afro underscore herper on Twitter if you wanna get in touch there. You can ping us on Twitter as well. We're Twist Science, Dr. Kiki, Jackson Fly, and Blairs Menagerie. 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I've got one disclaimer and it shouldn't be news. That what I say may not represent your views, but I've done the calculations and I've got a plan. If you listen to the science, you may just get to understand. That we're not trying to threaten your philosophy. We're just trying to save the world from juggling, we say and if you use our methods that are This Week in Science. This Week in Science. This Week in Science. Science, science. This Week in Science. This Week in Science. This Week in Science. Yay, thank you so much. We are still on the air, but the show is over. This is our after show, but. Yeah, I just whenever, yeah, if you, if you ever want to come talk about lizards, let me know. Definitely. Thank you again so much for having me. I, this was so much fun. I knew it was going to be. I was a little nervous at the start, but this is fantastic. It was a great, great way to, you know, end a Wednesday night. Oh, fantastic. I was honestly, so everyone, everyone who's watching right now. Blair texted me earlier this week and let me know that she was sick. And so I was like, OK, I'll be ready in case Blair can't make it to the show. And I was like, all right, I texted her this morning. I was like, are you going to make it? Is it, can you be on the show? And she's like, no, I can't do it. I was like, OK, what am I going to do? And I was like on Twitter all day and then I'm like, Aaron, she's because she was doing her find that lizard hashtag. And I was like, yes, this is a great idea. Oh my gosh. And so I reached out and was like, OK, I know this is last minute, please. And she was you're so kind to join me tonight. And and she just thought she was going to be kind of stepping in to fill Blair's spot for the evening and then Justin texted like an hour before the show and said, not going to make it. And I went, wait, what? Like, OK, then then Aaron and I got together to pre-show like there's no one else. It's just us. Sorry, didn't mean to just spring that on you. But it turned out great. I hope both Blair and Justin get well soon. I do, too. Yeah. Yeah, Gaurav Blair has been showing COVID symptoms, but she was tested. Her doctor told her to get tested and she was negative. So we've got some other viral infection, which I mean, that's great. But it's not great, but it's great. Yeah. Yeah. So hopefully that isn't a false negative test or anything like that. And she'll be hopefully right back at it and it'll be great. These it's so in times like this, it's just. Everyone it's it's tense. You're like, I have those I have symptoms. Is it the COVID? Yeah, I have allergies, seasonal allergies that I get every year.  There's a little flim in the back there.  And then I take my allergy medicine and I'm fine. And I'm like, OK, yeah, some stress off. We can make it another right pretty much. Yeah. Yeah. And then there's the flu. Who else? Oh, yeah. Identity four, probably some crummy flu. And yeah, people in the chat room are talking about noodles. You're moving one flight up during a pandemic. I hope the move is going well. That doesn't sound like fun. Yeah. Yeah. But I do hope I do hope Blair and Justin get their rest. Then they get better. And thank you for stepping up and being willing to play along. And yeah, I just hope I did a good job. You were great. It was wonderful. Yeah. Yeah, I quite enjoyed it. I mean, if I enjoyed it, then everyone's going to enjoy it, right? Yeah, they better. They don't have a choice. If you liked it, then they have to like it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So normally in the after show, I kind of hang out. We hang out for a little while and talk to people in the chat room. But I know it's probably like 11 midnight, where you are. 10. 10. Oh, you are Pacific. Right. For right now, I am. So, you know, Arizona is that weird state that doesn't do daylight savings. So like right now, I'm on the right time. But like in the fall, I'm going to be like an hour ahead. Arizona confuses me every single. Me too. I've had like. I'm like, you're on Mountain Time, but no, you're not on Mountain Time. Right. Not right now. I should be, but I'm not. OK. All right. So you're not up that late. Great. Yeah. Yeah. But if you if you need to get going, definitely feel feel free to hang up and head off to do your evening. But I'm going to probably hang out and talk with people in my chat room for a little bit. OK, well, I can hang out for a little bit. I am going to go and post the solution for this week's Fine Mat Lizard. I'm a little bit late, but I told them that that they should expect me to be late this week. Good. I hope they were all watching the show. Me too. I told them to come over here. I told them to participate. All right. So wait.  So let's see. Is this yes. OK. So we're looking for a Sonoran spotted whip tail. Yes. In this picture that I put up earlier. I'm going to share this screen again. Can anybody find the lizard in this screen? I'm going to put it on whole screen there. Can I make it bigger? No, bigger. I made it a little bigger. I don't know, everybody. Oh, darn it. I clicked things wrong. I clicked something. All right, Lizard, where are you? I'm how do you look for a lizard? Do you just look for the tail first? Do you look for the head? Do you look for stripes? Um, I just kind of look for like a lizard-ish shaped thing. And then I it's it helps with when it's in person, then you have movement. And so you can actually like see it move if you disturb it or like you can hear it. So like at a certain point, you know what people's footsteps sound like. You know what like the wind rustling the leaves sound like. And you know what like a lizard moving around sounds like. And you can listen out for that specific thing. I cannot see it. It is like, literally, this lizard is bigger than you think it is. It is a it is a chunky girl. So this species is really cool because it's one of a few uptail species that is all female. So like, oh, so like, like two different species of hybrid or not hybrid, two different species of whippetails decided to come together and they made babies. And so then that baby made it with one of their parent species. And then that's how they produce this particular species of lizard. And because of that hybridization, they stopped with male and female. They just all have females and then those females pretty much make clones of themselves. So and they still lay eggs. Some species of lizard give life births, but these ones lay eggs. And then on occasion, sometimes like the females will still go through like the motions of mating. And then sometimes that produces more eggs that are of higher quality. I know some reptiles are temperature dependent sex determination. Yes. And that's that's with some lizards, too, with some lizards, too. OK. This is impossible, Gaurav, you're right. It's impossible. Yes. Parthenogenesis Chelsea. I love Chelsea Connor and Facebook's chat room. She yelled it all caps. Yes, Chelsea is fantastic. She's also a herpetologist and she does a nose and so on Thursdays. So get ready for tomorrow. She does a did you a no and she posts a whole bunch of like different science facts about a no lizards and different species of a no and I learned so much for her because like a nose aren't like what I study in particular. So whenever I have like an a no question, I'm like, OK, Chelsea, I need you to answer this. What is going on with this lizard here? So she's she's fantastic. She also has a no stickers with like popsicles that are really cool. Nice. Did you a no, I like you got me. Any time there's a pun you've got is good. All right. So if you're if you're down looking, I just posted the solution. OK, so all right, everyone, if you have your thoughts on where this is, we're going to we're going to we're going to look at the solution. Oh, computer, don't crash now. Don't crash on me now. What? No. I still don't see it. Like this is this is one of those ones where you do really need to zoom to see it.  It's like it's like not even like hidden. The stripes, yeah, stripes are the stripes on the back of the lizard. Oh, and there's its tail. Yeah. Oh, my goodness. And so you see the tail is really long. And so you can see where they get the whittail name from all the way out there. I got a little tail.  Oh, my God, I know I was staring. I was like, I know it's it's got to be in the middle somewhere. And I did right. That's amazing. Yeah, it's almost center. Most of the time I do try to have them like off center, but with with her placement within those like bushes, there was almost like no way I could get an off center photo. So I was just like, well, this is fine. And then like I was pulling up like pictures today to pick which one was going to be the challenge photo. And I was like, is there a lizard in this photo? Is there a runaway before I snap the picture? And so I normally like do a couple of close ups so I could see if it actually like where the lizard is supposed to be in the picture, because there's been a bunch of times where I was just been like, I know there was a lizard here. I cannot find it in this picture. So I guess I just am not going to use this one. Oh, it sounds like Ed from Connecticut in our chat room. Spotted it. Nice. We have we have one person who thought they had it, but then said, I was wrong. That happens a lot even to me. That's no lizard. Yeah.  I just see a blur. My nose almost touched my laptop screen. Yeah, I do the same thing. It helps the word like my my laptop is touch screen. So I could just like zoom in. Zoom in a lot. Yeah. Oh, my goodness. Yeah, that was fun. Oh, my gosh, you must have so much fun with that every week. I do. It is really great. And I really enjoy like getting to like interact with people. And so like I I'll try to like go through the comments. So before when it was like a much smaller game, that was much easier because it was less people. And now it's like sometimes I feel bad because I'm like, normally I get to everybody, but I can't do that these days. So I'm just going to try to get to like as many people as I can and make sure that they know that I'm that I see that they're playing the game and stuff. I see you. Right. I see you. I might not be able to talk to you, but I see you. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Do you have? Are you going with COVID and everything? Are you going out? Because I imagine this is field season. Yeah, so we're out. Lucky for me, I'm going into the last year of my PhD. So like this is going to be kind of like the writing part. And like I'm going to be doing like some other programming that is not related to the ecology part of my degree. And so I don't have to go out into the field this summer. So I will be going out. Yeah, I'll go out for like recreational, like her being and like being able to like just like hike on my own and stuff. But I don't have to like deal with, you know, getting the university to approve my travel and approve my field research and stuff like that. I pretty all my stuff is wrapped up in that. That's great. Do you have, do you know when you're going to finish up? Are you next? Are you a next spring trying to wrap it up for next spring or for winter or pretty much for the spring? So I'm hoping to defend in the spring. So like May 2021 and then submit my final dissertation in the summer. Nice. Yeah. Oh, my gosh, I remember doing that. Yeah, I will be like glad when it's over. Like this has been such like a really fantastic journey because like I've gotten to like meet so many people and do so many things. I so when I was talking about my field work, I was I kept being like we, we, we like we do this and we do that. So I work with the Doors Doop Conservation Scholars Program. And so that is aimed at diversifying the people who work in the conservation field and giving undergraduate students research experiences. So my during my summers when I was doing field work, I take two undergraduate students out into the field with me. And so that has been really fantastic meeting them and working with them and being able to like see their growth from, you know, freshmen and sophomores to people who have graduated college and where like some of them are just like, you know, I don't know about this whole being outside thing. And then like, you know, they finished the program and they're just like, OK, actually, I really like this and I can see myself doing this in the future. And so that's like definitely like probably one of the most rewarding things about the PhD. And so that's that's been really awesome. So it's been a great journey. But I'm also I'm also ready to be done. Yep. It's a long journey and it's hard. There's a lot of there's a lot of stressful and yeah. Yeah, I finished my I did I took my comps and in this past spring. And so that was like so stressful. And my thank goodness I passed. I was like, well, if I don't, I guess I'm just not going to get a PhD. Yeah, that's a it's once you finish the comps, though, it's just kind of this nice kind of feeling of freedom because you're just worried about your research at that point. Yeah. OK, I just need to I'm doing I'm I'm doing the stuff I I want to be working on. And yeah, so that's a that's a nice I'm finishing that and passing. It's like this right. It's like, oh, OK.  And then it's just like, you know, it's like a half exhale because I still have to go through the whole defense and write the whole dissertation still. But so it's like at least different. Yeah, it's like somewhat of a release because it's like, well, clearly, my committee thinks like that I can do this. So I'm going to have a little bit more faith in myself here. Good. Yes. Yeah. You have the basics. You've got your proficiency. You've got your you know what you need to know. Exactly. You can teach this stuff now. Come on. Yeah. Yeah, that's so fantastic. Yeah. Do you think you're going to are you looking for postdocs and stuff or are you are you looking outward?  So my goal is to host a National History TV show, but I am flexible in the ways that I get there. So if that means, you know, maybe doing a postdoc that has to do with some sort of like conservation, but also like outreach, then I'm cool with that. Or if it means that I'm just going to like immediately leave academia as a whole, I'm also OK with that. So like I'm definitely keeping my options open at this point. It's it's really as long as it's getting me on that path into that end goal, then I'm OK with it. All right. Awesome. I love people with goals. Go for it. Yeah. Yeah. I have lots of ambitions. Good.  I don't think so. No. OK. Because she was another wild she was an ecologist, biologist, she's up in Canada, who that was her goal as well. And she she did it. She she's been on a she's done some shows and she's been on some things. So she might be the she might have some really good advice for you on. Yeah. On how to meet how to meet people who can help you get there. Yeah, that would be awesome advice to have. Because like, yeah, like my department is super awesome, where they're just like, OK, if that's what you want to do, we will help you in the ways that we can, which isn't much because that's not what we do. But we will definitely support you in any way possible that you think that we can support you or that we think that we can support you.  But you can kind of sort of see the next step type thing. So yeah. I think you're on the right track getting involved in a lot of, you know, in in science, computer communication and doing things because part of it is I mean, I think what I from what I've seen is that once upon a time, the the wildlife show hosts, they used to be, you know, they were they were men and, you know, like the Mutual of Omaha and these old programs. And then they moved to we're going to have a woman, but she's not necessarily going to be an expert in this field. She's just going to have a certain look and be able to talk. And so and so they moved to that kind of a model. And in the last few years, they've moved more to really, I think, trying to get hosts who are experts in their fields, who have a, you know, defined area of knowledge, right?  But yeah, that you have like this niche that's yours, that, you know, you can you can talk about that you can that you can write about that you can be the expert in and that helps that helps from the perspective of casting those shows or making them happen. Yeah. Yeah. And I think I mean, I don't know. I mean, there are a lot more options now than there used to be. Yeah, for sure. Like especially like with stuff like YouTube and stuff that's out there where it's like you can really start to develop your own content and then your own brand and then monetize that. And that can be your job. So, yeah. Yep. Yeah. And if you start it and a lot of people I know who have gone in to work in this area have have moved from making their own stuff and then finding a network like like Seeker or PBS Digital Studios or yeah, but any any one of these online networks that produces content and and then working for them, right, a content, a host or a content producer capacity. Yeah. Right. And then sometimes those shows end up on Netflix or you end up. Yeah. Yeah. HBO or Science Channel. And that would be awesome. Yeah. Yeah. I think, you know, go for it. Yeah, for sure. Don't let anyone tell you you can't just go for it. Thanks. Yeah. That's my my my thing is kind of just like, you know, be as ambitious as possible and then but also just be like realistic. So if you don't actually like get exactly what you're like looking for, like the next best thing is also OK, but like you got to go for what you're looking for at first, because like sometimes you might just get it. And you never know if you if you can get it, you might as well get it. And along the way, like you said, you might end up finding something that you didn't know you wanted that exactly that you want even more. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, to be honest, when I started graduate school, this kind of thing didn't even exist. So like there was none of this when I started graduate school. And so there was no envisioning doing something like this with my career. You know, I was like, I'll do I could be a I'll just I'll be a science writer. I'll be a science journalist or maybe you'll get it. I'll work in a museum. Right. And those were but I couldn't see the. This potential path or this future. So sometimes you never know where you're going to end up. That's very true. Yeah, I never thought I was going to end up working with lizards. Right. There you go. Seriously, I'm looking at your your find that lizard hat, like the stuff that you're doing for that. It's pictures, it's information. I mean, you have a book right there. Yeah, people keep saying that and I'm just like, listen, y'all, I have to get through this PhD first. I know, I know to do the PhD will be a book. I have to graduate. There is too late in the game to act like that. That's super time intensive, so I'll get to it post graduation. Yeah, yeah, I understand. I understand that, but it's you've got it. You've got all the stuff right there. Yeah. I know I would buy it. I'd be like, hey, I'd rather give. I'd rather give a find that lizard book to my son than a Where's Waldo book? Right. Right. I'm honored. All right, everyone in the chat room. I don't think that was a space toilet or zombies. No, I don't know what sounds you're hearing. Everyone. People, they're talking about they're talking about Connecticut and Corona viruses right now and people not wearing masks. Oh, that's no good. Wear a mask, everyone. Gora is wondering if you've seen a Komodo dragon up close. Only after zoo, but I love to see them in the wild. What is the coolest lizard that you like? Do you have? Do you?  Is is is it like that for lizards, too? Absolutely. So for me, I really want to see a heel monster. So they're the only venomous lizard in the United States, one of two in North America and one of very few in the world. And I mentioned it on the show that they spend, you know, like 90 percent of their lives underground. So they're really rare. They're experiencing a lot of habitat loss and and climate change is also affecting their populations negatively. So like they're super rare to see. And I didn't hear about them until I got to college. So like for the last eight years, I've really been trying to see a heel monster and it hasn't happened yet. So yeah, it's definitely the same.  Definitely. I'm going to someday I'll get to the Galapagos. Right. Same. Me, too. Yeah, so many. Yeah.  Right. Have lunch at a restaurant. Right. Be a tourist somewhere. Right. Yeah. I was supposed to have a vacation in May. I was I was planning to go to Tanzania for a month and then COVID said no. The whole hat paid for everything was ready. That all I needed to do was pack my bags, grab a passport and go. And then, yeah. Oh, that would have been amazing. Yeah, I was I was so I had been planning it for like a year. And then it was super disappointing. I was I was like trying to hold on to like the very last moment. I was like, hmm, is there a way? Is this maybe this won't be so bad. And then it was like, yes, this is going to be that bad and worse. It is. Yeah. Did you did you get a refund or did you just kind of hold it as credit to do it? Or did you end up making a lot of people of? Yeah, a lot of people have also lost money on travel plans. Yeah, luckily, I haven't like it was just like one hotel for one night that I wasn't able to like get refunded or use for like some other travel in the future, but everything else either I got refunded or they gave me like a credit for a future use. Nice. So you will be going to Tanzania? Yes, whenever it's whenever the world reopens, I will be in Tanzania. Yes, that would be awesome. Yeah, there's there's still so many places to visit. So many places to go. Exactly. I know.  But at least we do have this. Yeah, I understand. It gets kind of tiring to stare at a screen all day every day. Yeah. Unless you can get outside and go look at lizards. Yeah.  You know, I have two resident tree lizards in my backyard, one that's on the north side and one that's on the south side.   How's it going, boys? And then sit out and have a cup of tea or something. That's awesome. You should start. You're going to have to start doing experiments on your tree lizards. Yeah. Can you train the lizards? Ah, I don't know. I don't I've never heard of anybody training a lizard. I I'm sure somebody has tried it and figured it out. But I don't know about that personally. Right. Yeah. You could teach them that they find food in certain locations and start leaving them leaving them treats. Exactly. See if they take them. Yeah. Somebody's probably done it with, like, like pet lizards and stuff like that stuff that's actually bred to be in captivity. Yeah, but wild lizards. Probably not. Yeah. All right, everybody, it's 10 30. This has been super fun. I think I think I am starting to watching everybody and watching everybody talk about buying Costco stock and crypto and covid. And I'm thinking, I don't want to talk about that. I think I'm going to. I think I might go to bed. That would be a thing, right? Same. Yeah, for sure. This has been so awesome. It's been great. Yeah, thank you once again, everybody. Thank you so much for joining us for another episode of this week in science. Like I said, you can follow Aaron at Afro Herper at Afro underscore Herper. Make sure we got the underscore in there or Aaron McGee dot com. Right? Yes. Yes. We can go to your website also and make sure to follow. Find that lizard and we will be back next week. Maybe with Blair and Justin. I don't know. Hopefully so. Hopefully. I don't know anything anymore. I just go day by day. It's Blur's Day. What day is it? Blur's Day. All right, everyone, we hope we see you again next week. Thank you so much for watching. Good science to you. Bye.