It merely points out that there's an illusory experience that says separation, which then seeks wholeness, which is where wholeness hides. And that just, it just clarifies that that's what's going on. Wholeness hides in the illusory separation. Yeah. Wholeness is separation, the appearance of separation. There isn't anything else. That's why seeking it is hopeless. Wholeness is the appearance of separation. There is only wholeness. Yeah. That's pretty interesting. It's mind blowing. There's nothing to do with it. Yeah. Maybe that's where the misunderstanding that there's no, that one shouldn't do anything comes from because the message itself has no, no, no usable quality to it. It has no intention in it. But it's ineffable. There's no way to point to the unconditional celebration. Because there is only that because there is only that because everywhere you point is the unconditional celebration. The pointing as well. Yeah. Wow. So, yeah. So the unconditional celebration is both synonymous with the 100 million people that died in the 20th century. And it's also synonymous with pizza. Yeah. What? This is crazy. This is so crazy. Cool. There is only the infinite. And yet there is a zygote that apparently becomes an adult. Yeah. Which is this the infinite appearing as the story of a Zygote becoming an adult, which is this. Okay. Okay. Cool. Cool. Oh, wow. Hello everyone. Welcome to simulation. I'm your host Atlas. Very excited. So pumped to be featuring Jim Newman on the show. Hi Jim. Thanks so much for coming on the program. Yeah, thanks for inviting me. I'm really excited to talk about all things non duality. And Jim has been really influential on me and many others. And he's just got this style of sharing the paradoxical message of non duality with these very direct algorithms like there is no path. This is home for no one. And he's hosting meetings worldwide and monthly zoom meetings. And you can find all the content on his YouTube channel the links are in the bio below to both his website simply dash this calm. In his great channel. We are going to be exploring the ineffable basically. So how do we even do this Jim so is it isn't then fair to say that these meetings these conversations are pointing to what can't be pointed to. Yeah, totally. But we do it because people come to attend yet the meeting and to hear the paradoxical message. Yeah, it's an unusual it's it's unexpected in a way because it's not really presenting anything. It's responding to something that's looking for something. And the response is there's nothing really lost. So there's nothing, there's nothing to give. There's nothing on offer. The message is really empty. It's no thing. Responding to something saying I need something more. And the responses that that experiences illusory. As I've been watching your content you've said things like you seek the end of the need to become an individual. And so then that is what comes to the meetings. Well, not really. Okay. What's what's truly I mean in the end there's you have to differentiate a little bit and it can be a little pedantic but the individual. That experience really just seeks more. It's an experience of knowing and what it does is it seeks more knowing in the hope that when it knows enough. What what's not obvious to it is that seeking or knowing knowing is the need to know it's not the end of knowing knowing engenders the need to know. But what's longed for beyond that contracted limited experience of being an individual is the end of seeking the end of the need to become. Yeah. Yeah. And another way you've mentioned this is that there's this apparent center that wants meaning, it wants purpose more. And it's seeking to bridge the gap of separation. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so just to be very clear, because it's so often misunderstood. There's a contracted energy in the body, which is an appearance. And out of that arises the personal experience of I am, which is completely illusory. It's not happening like it's not happening now. It never happens. But out of that contracted energy for that for that body, it might be the experience that it is happening. And the responses and there can be nothing done about that. The responses. It's not real. It's illusory. Everything else, the apparent world, the apparent contraction, the apparent movement is just seemingly so it's neither real nor unreal. The only thing that's completely illusory or a dream is the experience of being an individual that everything is about me. So then it's a, it's in a contracted apparent center that I am an individual comes to the meeting. And then there is a process of the pointing to the paradoxical message of non duality of there is no path. This is home for no one. And at that point then, as is sort of said in the Neo Advaita tradition that there's a immediate ism of a sense of the recognition of the illusion of the eye or ego. Well, nobody, nobody realizes the illusion of the eye or the ego. It's one of the issues for the individual is when it when it's seeking it's expecting or the need says that what has to happen is there has to be an answer to my experience and that answer has to be an addition to me. I feel there's some sort of miss something missing or something lacking. And so I then look for a realization, I then look for something more, because I experienced something missing that never that that never has an end that's an eternal experience of seeking seeking seeking seeking is never satisfied. But what the meeting isn't about hearing something and something happening. It merely reflects back to the experience that something needs to happen that nothing does. And that that experience of something needs to happen actually hides the reality that what is is already completely free. And that includes the need, experiential need for something to happen. And that's the dilemma for the experience of the individual. It is already what it's longing for. Well, what's long for it doesn't long for that it doesn't long for its end it's terrified at the end of itself. Would it be fair to say that some of the ways of adding attributes, because ultimately, as I said, the near Guna Brahman is that without attributes the absolute without attributes and then the saguna Brahman is when you add attributes to the ultimate to the absolute to the ineffable. And then that's sort of where you've said things like that this is already whole that there's no that there's no lack. It's unconditionally free. Yeah. Yeah. So the end, I don't know those two terms that you talked about. But what's what's obvious is they aren't actually two things. So the one doesn't become the other. The, the appearance of of a limitedness is the absolute appearing limited. The experience of separation is the absolute appearing as the experience of separation. There never is separation. That's the dilemma for the individual is trying to overcome something that isn't already happening. So the absolute appears as separation. No, well, yes, it is separation, it appears as that it's not separate from that it doesn't become separation. So what what is is already absolute. Yep. Correct. Yeah. And there's nothing else. Yes. All that is appearing is absolute. And that the appearance of separation is then why there's the attendance of the non dual meetings. Yeah, the experience of separation. Yeah. The experience of being an individual, a person with a life, free will and choice, meaning and purpose. Yeah, I mean it can be there are times there are people that come to the meetings just because it's, it's just a wonderful thing to hear. Yeah, it's just a beautiful thing. It's just amazing, really. It's it always remains fresh and new. It never becomes something old and known. So that and that fresh newness is awesome. It's just a liveness. So that can be, you know, isn't there something that's so beautiful about the will of this appearance that feels like the appearance of the separate individual that is in a sense kind of like a GPS callback mechanism. I wouldn't say that I wouldn't say that's beautiful at all. Okay. And there's nothing that that there's nothing that has lost wholeness, and there's nothing that finds wholeness. There's no journey that that separate individual experience is truly on that journey is an illusion that journey is the experience that this appearance has a real past and a real future that happens as a cause and effect continuum. That's an illusion. That's actually death. Real time is the fear of death. That's the problem for me. That experience of separation. So no, in that sense, I don't see anything amazing about it at all. It's actually, it's actually, you know, just quietly suffering. Always looking for something always trying to add something more to itself coming from the appearance coming to the appearance with the experience that something is wrong and needs to be set right. The basic energies of that experience is something needs to happen, which is a discontent. It even in what it does is it will hear what we're sharing here and say something needs to happen for this to understand or find what Jim's talking about. And that is the illusion. It isn't coming from something that's known. It might be that the ones listening is coming from something what's known and thinks that Jim has something they don't. And it's just the opposite. There isn't anything here. There might be the illusion of something there. It's fascinating that there's a rather than viewing it as beautiful that there's also this view of it being a quiet suffering. I don't know how fascinating it is but it, it seems to happen. I mean that's, that's the experience of being an individual. It's missing something's wrong. Something needs to happen. I mean intrinsically, the entire appearance of which that ends in a part is awesome is beautiful. Yeah, but when you say is there something beautiful in it that seems to me as if it has some sort of intention or some sort of function. Sure, sure. And it, and it doesn't. This doesn't have any intention. That's the unconditional unrecognizable freedom that it is that there's no intention there isn't any need for this to become in it doesn't this doesn't become. Do you also explore the infinitude that this is. Well, you can't explore the infinitude that this is because there is only the infinitude that this is. Okay, so then, so then, would it also be fair to say that this is one appearance of the infinitude. No, because that suggests that there's potential that's unrealized. And that's not the case there isn't potential unrealized, because there isn't anywhere or anything else potential unrealized comes from an experience that this is really happening. And it could be something else. That's not really the way it is. This isn't really happening, but it could be anything. And in that, the revelation is it is anything. It's already anarchy or chaos. It just appears as this. Yes, that's been a fun attribute is metaphysical anarchy. That's been an interesting way to express the ineffable. When we do play with infinity or eternity that this is the appearance of metaphysical anarchy, and that is eternal or infinite. So eternal wouldn't be a word I would use. So why do you not use eternal. Well, a friend of mine just just informed me that internal means an age. If you look at in the in the dictionary, as a literary term it's defined as an age. For me, a little, a little, a little cheeky. I say it's just a very long time, eternal and infinity. So eternal is like a very long time, whereas for me, infinite points to that this, I thought eternal means without time. Okay. Well, if it does, then that's, that's, then yeah, that's this. Okay. Okay. And affinity for me is what doesn't doesn't, there's no beginning and no end, the alpha and omega. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. This. Okay, cool. Okay. So then it does sound like then eternity being no time and infinity being no beginning no end this. Yeah, same thing. Yeah, cool, cool. Okay. But you don't say that this is an expression of that, because you don't want there to be the, the inference that there is something more for it to achieve. Well, when you say the expression of that it sounds like, and this isn't because this wants it, it's just because it's obvious that there's no separation between the what you're calling the ineffable and the appearance. Yes, yes. It's the same thing. Correct. Yes. Which is not can't be understood, which is why it can't be pointed to, because pointing is also it every word is it. It can't be contained, because it is everything. One word is everything. The experience that it that it that it develops or becomes is the experience that there's intention or something's incomplete. And so something could happen really happen that would make a difference to that which we're talking about. Nothing does. You've called this empty happening. Yeah. Cool, cool. So would it be fair to say that the empty happening is similar to in the revelations in the last 100 or so years of quantum mechanics that there are all of these infinite solutions of the underlying energy and that then this is an appearance as form. Yeah, but that's what happens in that is what science does and that's what the individual does is it says there's all this possibility or potential that appears as certain things. And that's just the experience that there's something other than the appearance. The absolute is not hidden. The multitude of as you called it of possibilities isn't hidden. It's only the experience that what's happening is real makes it seem like there's something else. This is the multitude of possibilities. This is the absolute. It doesn't become because it is so there isn't any outside like God that's becoming or projecting this. This is all. Yeah, which is and isn't. So the aphorism from john 1030 that is I and my father are one or yeah, or the or the Sanskrit taught to vom Aussie. You are that you are that I wouldn't say I wouldn't say you are that you want. We do say this is the ineffable but you wouldn't say that you are that. We are you and the word I can be misleading. Hmm. So but what about we are it or we are that. Well, if there's no I there's no we. But you also said I and my father are one is okay. Yeah, because I understand what you're saying but then you went and you gave me another one and I was thinking, oh, I better, I better, better. So I went in there and sort of clarify that. Yes, there's not to. Yeah, there might be an appearance of two and the appearance of two as a reality comes out of the experience that I am, or that you and I am is simultaneously the experience that you are. Fair to say that in the most ultimate that there is no path and that this is home for no one, and that the appearance of the individual is completely illusory. And that then simultaneously another layer is that this Jim Newman character is a unique expression. Yeah, I will there's a character. Yeah, that's unique expression. Yeah, you could say that. Okay, it's not another layer though. It's all it. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So the reason why even say it as another layer is just to be able to even slot it into the conversation because sometimes the individual so completely rejected that it never even gets its ability to get Yes, but there's an appearance of a Jim Newman unit. Yeah, character. Yeah, and there's this appearance of this Atlas unit slash character. Yeah. And so I feel as though that is important. Okay. And the reason why is because in the understanding of the ineffable in the attempt to play in this territory that the simultaneity of the individual being a completely illusory appearance, while it also being a unique expression. Oh, no, no, no unique expression is, you know, sort of the character of the body we're talking about an apparent past the brain conditioning genetics. That's that's the character, the voice how it happens this, the, you know, how, how it moves, how it walks. The individual never happens. So when when it's recognized or when the character, the individual falls away. That doesn't actually fall away. The revelation is it never happened. That's one of the misunderstandings that often comes up is that it could happen that there's something that needs to happen. And so that's why there's such an undermining of the experience of the individual as a reality. And it's pointed out that it's completely illusory, because otherwise it's heard as something wrong, and something that needs to change for this to be complete and whole. Yeah, and that would be a misunderstanding of what's being said. The appearance of the Jim Newman character is anarchic. Yeah. Just like all the words that are happening. Yes, the hands. It's all anarchy just appearing. And yet. Do you find it beautiful that there is this appearance of the Jim Newman unit slash character. Well, especially the Jim Newman character is beautiful. Yeah, all the other one. Especially.  I mean, creative. Yes. The individual in the experience of knowing what's happening loses the revelation of the aliveness, because the knowing is the experience that what's happening is real. And that engenders the need for something else the aliveness that seems to be lost. And that aliveness is beauty is purity. And it, it is never, it can't be lost. The experience of it being lost is an illusion. And I guess one reason why when this comes out, it totally negates the experience of the individual is because it is also that aliveness and that beauty. The seeking that it seems to do is completely hopeless because it is already what's longed for and the seeking makes it seem like it's lost. So there's nothing to say to the individual. There's just nothing to say to it. It's actually not happening. Yeah, yeah. So in the ultimate, there is nothing to say to the individual. There's just this appearance happening. It's the immediacy. There's no need for anything to be said but things are said and yes there's only immediacy. Yeah. It isn't real. It's not a now. It's not a now that you could be and couldn't be. It's not a now that you could approach. It is, it is, it is that there is only immediacy, even the experience that it's not is immediacy. Is the unspeakable creativity of the quote, 8 billion appearances of units slash characters. Yeah, bodies, bodies. Yeah. Is that illusory multiplicity. That's not illusory. That's apparent. The illusion. The only illusion is the individual. It's just completely unreal. The bodies, the apparent bodies, Atlas, Jim camera cameras and computers and all that are apparent. And that just merely points pointing to that they're not real. They only they only become experientially real. When the individual arises as real to itself. I'm real. Everything else is real. Okay, so all appearance is unreal. Neither real nor unreal. Yeah, I see. And the appearance being neither real nor unreal that when the individual thinks of itself as real that then it says that the appearance is real. It's it's more profound than that really the or when the individual arises is not a thought. It's an experience of knowing. And when the individual that experience of knowing arises. It actually arises in everything. So everything becomes me. Everything has been real. Everything is related to me and it's all important or in in my life as me. And that in what's interesting is that includes what isn't there and what isn't happening. It's all related to me it's all about me. And that's not a thought. The eye doesn't have thoughts. It takes in that in that it takes ownership of everything. It can't differentiate it picks up everything because it's seeking picks up everything. It picks up thoughts and feelings as well. And they feel closer to it. And so it feels more important to it. And it tries to do things with it as far as sift through them to find the good ones and the bad ones. And it has this big huge file cabinet where it's making sense of everything all the time. And it takes up a thought which doesn't doesn't fit to its story of itself. It has a toolkit where it drills a hole in there it cuts off a corner, because it's an unacceptable thought doesn't fit to it. It's it's very, it's very exhausting being an individual. It's a lot of effort. And yet, it is the way that this is apparently expressed. What. The, it is exhausting. I, I'm 100% alignment on how exhausting it is in the sense of constantly seeking to in the in the, and having this in a sense, this massive sorting of of information and in that type of process and then there's sort of the this piercing of this veilless veil or whatnot, the gateless gate that when that sort of happens all of the seeking and the filing cabinets that falls away. Yes. And that yet it is the way that the appearance happens is is that this. The real nor unreal appearance is a apparent Jim Newman character and an atlas character that are and eight billion bodies that have this experience of that up that apparently have this experience of just of this happening. Yeah, well, I mean, I don't, not to be too pedantic, but this isn't actually an experience. There isn't actually a consciousness in the body, being aware of something else. That's just part of the experience of being an individual. And when we go up and sleep for a third of our lives and we, and we dream out the environment and the observer in the environment and then we that dream ends where Jim simulated out a himself being Paul by the Eiffel Tower and then he goes and he simulates himself out in a relationship with Karen in New York. And so that is analogous to this. Is that how you view it. Well as the illusion of the individual that something is really happening but dreams happen. I dream. This isn't about changing the appearance. It's about the revelation that it's only apparent it's not real or unreal. And then is that similar to when you become Paul and you're in your dreamed reality and you're hanging out collapsing of becoming anything. So when that dream simulation happens. That's just what's happening. That's just what's happening. And is this also that. Yeah, absolutely. Okay, so you can't tell the difference. You in a dream when you when you're dreaming at night you have the space it's haphazardly begin somewhere. But it seems congruent. That's the experience. And it then goes on and some sort of it's whatever it does. You don't know that this isn't that you don't know that this hasn't just now started as some dream haphazardly and the brain or the the the Atlas experience is making sense out of it. You don't know. That's when we can potentially leverage analogies like the dream that help with a as you pointed earlier there's this apparent suffering of the seeking individual and that the dream analogy can sort of help that cessation of the suffering. I don't I don't think anything helps the cessation of suffering. You, we don't know if it doesn't help anyone. It can, it can if it's understood, there can be some relaxation in the body around it. It can create some some loss of beliefs about what this appearance was about, but there is no intention, because, and you rightly pointed out, it negates the individual and completely, and in as much. It has no message to the individual. It is not trying to help anyone, because it doesn't recognize anyone. Because quite simply, there isn't anyone. So in the dream, your Paul by the Eiffel Tower, and that there's Sally that comes up to you and that and that Sally begins saying that that she encountered some sort of an accident of some sort and that she feels really bad that she spilled a hot coffee on somebody that she was dining with a moment ago and she's telling you as Paul about it, and that you, you in that under in this understanding that we're talking about right now, you as Paul would in the appearance would recognize that both Sally, her suffering about spilling the coffee, and then you listening to her help helping her not suffer that all of that in the grand scale is a complete apparent, neither real nor unreal, dreamed. It's just what's happening. It's just what's happening. Yeah. Apparently. Yeah. That's all there is is what seems to arise. And it is already whole and complete. So there isn't it doesn't have it's it doesn't extend beyond. It doesn't have any, any limit to it. There isn't a beginning and an end to that, which can't be said. Yes. And that's why the words infinite or eternal in a sense they assist a lot with the disintegration or the dissolution of the illusory. I am thought. I am isn't a thought experience. It's an experience. Yeah. If there were a thought it'd be easy to deal with. And the reason this message is so often rejected is because there's an experience of I am. There's an experience of awareness. There's an experience of consciousness. And so it rightly I mean quite understandably this message is rejected because it goes against an actual experience and for the individual. All it has all it knows is experience. And then the individual never hears what's being suggested. So this message is never heard by the individual. But something else can, let's say, sense it. And that can then relax some of the of the contracted, contracted, but that without intention. Nobody could do it. Just like this takes absolutely no responsibility for the message or anything that seems to happen out of it because it doesn't come from anyone or anywhere. Yep. Exactly like this. The appearance. Is already unconditionally free. It never becomes unconditionally free. Yeah. Is it fair to say that the unconditionally free. The fullness that is apparently happening also has a in a sense of dualistic concession where there's a suffering and a well being where there's people that don't have their basic needs being met where they don't have access to clean water. Yeah, that seems to happen. It's exciting to talk about the architectures and to execute those protocols that that enable more people to have their basic needs met.  Why not. Sure. Building spaceships and iPhones and. I think I think I think what you're pointing to and I agree that often this this sharing is misunderstood as sort of the negation of activity or the negation of a world where things can be done and happen. And really it's just negating personal volition that makes it happen. But of course all that stuff still apparently happen. There's nothing right or wrong about any judgment in the in the in what's being shared here at all. It clearly points out that there's an illusory experience it says there's separation, which then seeks wholeness, which is where wholeness hides. And that just it just clarifies that that's what's going on wholeness hides in the illusory separation. Yeah. There is separation, the appearance of separation. There isn't anything else. That's why seeking it is hopeless wholeness is the appearance of separation. There is only homeless. Yeah. That's pretty interesting. It's mind blowing. There's nothing to do with it. Yeah. Maybe that's where the misunderstanding that there's no that one shouldn't do anything comes from because the message itself has no quality no no usable quality to it. It has no intention in it. I'm happy that you mentioned that there's the occasional interpretation of non duality, which will make it feel like the creativity of the expressions is not beautiful. But it absolutely is beautiful. It's neither real nor unreal but it's absolutely beautiful the as we were listing meeting the basic needs of people worldwide and creating these incredible devices of technology that enable us to communicate all this type of stuff. What you're doing now is you're putting you're putting a value on what would generally be called helpful things, which gates other and what the suggestion is, no matter what arises, what you dislike most. The worst thing you could think of, and the best thing you could think of are all wholeness. There is no, there is no difference in that sense. And let's make the dualistic concession and say that the, the person that makes a loaf of bread for their family is feeding three or four people, and that the person that teaches a million people how to make loaves of bread is feeding millions of people. And so right now I'm creating this, this Atlas unit has the appearance of making this value distinction. Which is a dream, which is part of the dream of hope of the individual, the individual having having that sense of lack or something needing to happen creates an entire system, not as a choice, but as a reaction. And it creates a belief system. And the belief system is its story about itself about how it's going to find wholeness. And that belief system is engenders or has within it the the values of good and bad and right and wrong. And it will come up with all sorts of different things that it says are good, but that only relates to its expectation that if it is good, it will find what it feels is missing. So this value system where there's illusion, it's just an illusion. Yes, yes, has no value. Yes. And then there's also the value system where there's a suffering there's malevolence or violence or murder, rape. And then there's the well being and prosperity and abundance and there's sort of this dualistic concession in the value system where it's all still what is, which is neither real nor unreal. Yes, and the 8 billion apparent bodies undergoing the civilizational dialectical process towards abundance and prosperity and well being and away from violence and suffering is great. In a dualistic reality. Yeah. Yeah, in the dualistic concession. There's no concession here dualistic of a dualistic reality that has any value from from the what we're talking about. Actually, it's obvious that the entire appearance is already completely at balance. Yeah, that it has no charge at all. That it actually has no need to become. I mean really, there isn't another 8 billion people. There's a world out there of suffering and hunger, and all the things we're talking about just simply, there is simply what's happening. And what you're bringing into the conversation are these thoughts about all of that. Just like Paul is in your dream. Paul, it's your thought of Paul in the example to try to illuminate this this conversation. In a sense it's almost as though the infinite or the eternal is a really great attribute along with anarchy for the non dual. And then there's the attribute of something like evolution. That's in a sense a good attribute for the dualistic concession. It's a apparent evolutionary process where you went from being a zygote to being a 30 trillion celled unit character. And that appearance is useful to know in its appearance, because it gives insight into the nature of the dream. Yeah, no, I don't agree with that. Okay, so so for example when a child recognizes the infant recognizes that there is no separation and that there is simply this appearance happening and yet also they recognize that they went from being a zygote to being a 30 trillion celled adult. There's no value in the appearance. There's just simply no value in it, because it has no intention value would send give the sense that something was more valuable than something else. That only arises when there's a sense of need. There isn't any there isn't any need there isn't any value. There's nothing wrong with the recognition or the realization or the knowing that this body is the result of an apparent evolution that became something. But at the same time, this is the big bang. So there isn't any value in that process, because there isn't any real process. It's disappearing as that process of a single cell becoming. But this is all of that. It seems as though with the infinite or eternal non dual that the ineffability of that, neither real nor unreal appearance happening this simply this that that that in a sense, simultaneously also recognizing the dualistic dichotomous concession between the suffering and the well being and the in the multiplicity, the concession of the 8 billion apparent bodies that are all uniquely expressions of that infinite eternal non dual. It's the description of in a sense the most outwardness of the inwardness, the inwardness is the non dual infinite ineffable eternal and the outwardness is this apparent multiplicity of unique units slash characters that are dreamed that are neither real nor unreal, but it's still cool that Jim has this unique iris. He has unique coloration around his pupil. And that all 8 billion of us have unique coloration in our iris around our pupil, and that that is in a sense an artistic expression of that infinite of that eternal of that non dual.  Well, no, I mean not not as an experience. Not as an experience, but as a creative and archic expression, but that's this is a creative and archic, but it's not just to be clear, it is the ineffable. Yes. Yeah, it is no thing. Appearing as everything you just said. I can't help but get the feeling you're looking for some value in it. That somehow because it's artistic it has more value than something else. And that that, if that that may not be true, but let's just assume it is and the response to that would be that that comes out the need of something. There, there is equal value or equally emptiness of value in everything we've talked about today, because is there isn't any real separation for anything to become a need. It is already complete perfect in that it couldn't be any other way. There is no comparison. Because everything that you mentioned is everything. So there's no way to compare. And in that sense it's it's perfect. What we're playing right now is interesting because the equal emptiness of value is the infinite eternal and non dual, and even the illusory multiplicity is ineffable. All ineffable yet the most outward in the this dualistic concessual juxtaposition in that in that outwardness of the value system that there's a there's a nesting of sorts. It's like the nesting is a, it's like the nestings concentric circles with the non dual eternal infinite with another nested circle inside of that which is the dualistic concession of very similar Taijitsu, which has the monism, and then it has the yin yang dualism on the inside. And then there's also another concentric circle, which is the multiplicity, the 8 billion apparent bodies that are the creative expression of the non dual infinite. And it just, it appears as though there is a synthesis of the East in its non dual infinite eternal, along with what is in the West, this gratitude that we were expressing a moment ago, which is the infinite expression through the apparent individual where you get the technology of these devices and of these electric vehicles and of these eradications of people not having food and water, and that is something to be celebrate celebrated. And that's where it is what appears as a synthesis between the that non dual infinite eternal Eastern with the sort of Western creative expression of the infinite through these individuals, how does that resonate. Not it, there isn't there is no duality duality is exactly like you described these two things and this and that. And what what might not be what what what we're talking about here is that this, or this, or that is everything. There is only everything. It never separates. And yet it is only everything. And yet you're the gym unit character, and I'm the Atlas unit character but it's in the dream, and it's an appearance, the character is an appearance, and whatever appears is everything. So there's no real movement. There's no real separation. There's not really two things happening. There's only everything, whatever that is, whatever this is, it's all there is. It is the dream of the individual that this is really happening, which then projects out that there's something else really happening. So you don't play with the value system. There isn't any value. There's just simply no value value is the need of the individual it's the story it tells itself that the appearance has some lacking in some way value is the story I tell myself of becoming and my value.   No, what do they call it bait. Yeah.  Oh, I get it. I get it. That's yeah, that's funny. But there doesn't need to have a value system for there to be an appreciation of food of one side or the other. I may see this whole thing with when there's a billion people around the planet that are still figuring out access to clean water and abundant sources of food. I, and the West in many ways, get really excited about this apparent individual which is really just the creative expression of the infinite of the non dual that is a motivating force, saying, Ah, we are executing these next production architectures that eradicate the 100 million people in this part of the world that don't have access to that clean water and food, and then there's this applause for the company and for the employees and the excitement there. See, and that is in a sense, that's in a value system. That's more beautiful than the lethargic apathetic expression of the infinite, which is sitting and eating fast food and just shoving that in its mouth and very gluttonous and lazy. And so, yeah, so does. Yeah, so, so that's just the story of the individual trying to find something of value and judging fast food as not good because it has the, the belief that there is something good that will bring about what it's looking for that will bring about wholeness. And the experience is seafood fast food won't bring about wholeness, but eating brown rice or vegetables or whatever will bring about wholeness. But yet you're not what seems to be happening what's that, but you're but yet you're not eating fast food every single day because you know that as a value system that that's going to create a that's just not the way it is that that. Art decision to mean the individual if there is one will then add on to its actions value system, but generally the body will eat what feels good. What what brings what brings you know what what what feels good. It says though, there's no value to it at all. In that sense that you're talking about. There is no more value in in clean water than unclean water. There's nothing wrong really help people with helping so interesting water. But it's all in what's being pointed to in the non dual. There is only the non dual. It's it is never to out of the dream of the individual and it isn't that dream. But you prefer clean water, but you prefer clean water. You see what I'm saying. Yeah. And that sort of makes this conversation beautiful because there is only the non dual where there's no value between clean water and dirty water, and yet then in the dualistic concession, there is I definitely prefer clean water. But the preference of clean water is just simply what's happening there's no value in that. It's simply what's happening. Yeah. Okay, but yet there's a preference for the clean water. There's all sorts of preferences. Yeah. This is that was that was an interesting exploration right there. So there's all sorts of preferences so there's the preference for well being that's sort of what you would say is there's all sorts of preferences. Well, some people have a preference for too much cheese. There's a preference to eat more cheese than is healthy. And so they get gallstones. That's just what's happening. Some people have a preference for smoking. It seems as though the, the celebration of the infinite expressing itself creatively through the illusory individuals is what has enabled so creativity. That's what I'm saying. That's great. Nothing else. Yeah, it's also the absolute. It doesn't come through and become something else. It is that it's so it's so it just rolls off. It's like water on a duck's back. There isn't two things going on. There is only the infinite. There isn't the infinite becoming. It is when the when the experience of the infinite becoming and there's something else going on that then value comes into it. Because the experience of the individual in that experience of separation is that something's missing. So in the Taijitsu, which I feel is probably one of the greatest symbols that's that's ever been made. There's this monist non dual infinite eternal and then there's the dualistic yin yang within it, and that the there is no becoming like you've been saying there's only the being or the apparent being and that is the monist and then the dualistic becoming is something along the lines of that you did go from a zygote to 30 trillion cells and you And which is this and you do have the preference of clean water instead of dirty water. Yeah, yeah. That's fascinating. And this is what I was talking to you about and actually Rita as well, your wife, who does so much epic behind the scenes stuff to actually make help this make this happen that these are the styles of dialectic that a lot of the non dual community is interested in hearing because there's a lot of, there's a lot of people that are trying to figure out what we just talked about a moment ago. And in a sense, the, the description this dualistic description that we did a moment ago of there being the preference for clean water is something that people feel all the time that they have this preference towards clean water rather than dirty water, but that when the if the non dual paradoxical message that's being expressed in the appearance through the gym Newman unit is coming out. There is no value system that Yes, that then people say that. Yes. But what about the preference for me choosing or for it coming through to choose, but yeah you're back to free will and choice of which there isn't any. Yes, correct. No free will no choice and yet this unit this character is has a preference has a preference which is not dualistic preferences aren't dualistic. Okay, well they can be described with two poles and a spectrum. Okay, but that's not dualistic either there is there is only what seems to be happening there's never two things. So sort of what I what I was just mentioning is that it's like the simultaneity of the non dual infinite eternal wholeness perfection appear apparent happening with the simultaneous. I'm the it's coming through to have a preference towards clean water rather than dirty water. So it doesn't come through. It is not. Yeah, it is the preference it appears as a preference. It comes through because then that makes it so that there's not an attachment to choice and free will. That's the reason that there as long as there's an individual, there's not this isn't about detachment as long as there's an individual there's an experience of choice and free will. Just like there's an experience of value and experience of meaning and purpose. That's just part and parcel of the experience of separation. And yet you would it be fair to say that you enjoy a nice night out with Rhea in Austria, and versus, you know if you're having to lay on the couch behind you because you have very severe knee pain and you and you have a pref clear preference there's a clear preference. There are preferences but preferences are what seems to be I feel as though the Taijitsu plays a massive role in what we're playing with right now and why it was formulated over 1000 years ago and there is no. Yeah, I know I'm aware. I love it. I love it. See that's the thing in the in the Taijitsu it would be like there is no 1000 years ago in the most non dual monist sense and then in the dualistic concession sense it would be like, well, yeah, I guess, technically 30 years ago there were no laptops and now we're using these laptops to talk. Yeah, but but that thought is this appearing as that thought there is no real 30 years ago. The non dual appearing as the thought of talking about 30 years ago it's really not that complicated there's just what appears and it can appear as anything. It's limitless without limit and it can appear as a thought of 8 billion people having more water or or not or computer or a zygote or that symbol that you mentioned I can't remember what it the Taijitsu Taijitsu yeah yeah it it can appear as anything. There is nothing that's dual. There is no thing. All of this is no thing being this. Sometimes it, there's the interpretation of the non dual which is that the individual which is an apparent individual the loser and there's no such thing as non duality. Interesting. Yeah, I'm cool. Cool. It's just the thing that it is very much something that the non dual community, which doesn't exist is it exists as that thought is as the thought that is playing with is that when the individual is so negated as an illusion that then there is no celebration like a big confetti about the beauty of the expression of and because it lives in a world of need. And so it looks for celebration. Well, it is just an eternal celebration. This is just eternal fireworks. But that's not what you were describing. You were describing the, the non dual community that has the sense of the individual being negated, negates the celebration of this. And so the response was the individual is just needing it never gets enough they don't never have enough. Even if even if we were to agree or somehow come to the conclusion that everything is celebration for the individual it wouldn't be enough. There's just not enough for the individual for that experience of separation. It's always experiencing the loss of the aliveness that this is already. If everything is the celebration then even dirty water is as celebrated as clean water. Absolutely. Yeah. See that this is this is the, but I would have to say unconditional celebration. Because it. There's no way to point to what this is. I'm following now. Okay, cool. So it's not conditional. It is no longer relatable. It's no longer relevant. That points to the limitlessness of the appearance, the beginning and endlessness of the appearance. And then would it be do you do you resonate with the word surrender. And that's something that the individual is looking for the individual one of the basic experiences is that something needs to happen for this to be what's looked for. Or, or, or that's what's longed for, and it never happens. And that experience is not this, the next, something else, something else. It's the experience nobody can and surrender is the idea that there's someone with free will and choice that could give that up. And that that hides the reality that giving that up is also what's next is also the need for something to happen. Okay. Yeah, unconditional celebration. That's all there is. Beautiful. And that's why Francis Lucille talked about it as an eternal fireworks. Yeah. Yeah. And yet this apparent unit or vehicle is has the preference of clean water of fireworks that are not food that is going to give me heart disease. You know, so. But it's ineffable there's no way to point to the unconditional celebration. There is only that because there is only that because everywhere you point is the unconditional celebration. The pointing as well. The pointing is as well. Yeah. Perfect. Yeah, that's, that's a great place to wrap freedom appearing is another way to potentially talk about that the unconditional celebration is freedom appearing. Cool. Yeah, I like that as well. And then, oh, this would be interesting. What about, what about this apparent expression that this has, or that this is the trying to trying to take the unconditional freedom and unconditional celebration that we're talking about and trying to package that up into videos and and animated series and art and books. Just what happens. It's just what happens. Yeah. And the person that picks up a gun and murder somebody else is just what happens. Yeah. And so is the one that stops him. And so is the one that stops him, or doesn't, or doesn't see what we're getting into is the experience that the individual has free will and choice. And could choose to do something or some are not do something that's just part of the illusory control that the individual feels it has over the appearance. So when we say all is unconditional freedom slash celebration that can also be synonymous with the worst thing you can think with the with the non yeah it can be synonymous with the worst thing you can think of and it can be synonymous with with God. Well, I mean, or, or, or pizza, or pizza. Okay, fair, fair. Wow. So, yeah, so the unconditional celebration is both synonymous with the 100 million people that died in the 20th century. And it's also synonymous with pizza. Yeah. What, this is crazy. Yeah, my gosh, got it. He's so crazy. She's it's like, yeah, a billion people that get access to clean water is a piece of billion people are there is a is a pizza which is a murder that's happening which is the invention of the printing press which is. Yeah, yeah. And then. Yeah, this. Actually, it's the telegraph was the most profound change in society of all time. The telegraph, because it was the first time we could send information that made a biggest that was the they say you know who were they I don't know, but they say that was one of the biggest evolutionary steps. The telegraph. But evolution is a illusion. No, it's really simple man. The only illusion is the individual. Everything, but evolution is not an is not an illusion. It's an appearance. It's an appearance. So evolution is an appearance just like this becoming is an appearance. Becoming is a dream if we're talking about personal becoming. It's a dream of the individual. It never happens is evolution a dream. No, it's an appearance. It's an appearance. But the different words is an if we're talking about the individual becoming. That's a dream. There is no individual to become if we're talking about the wheel becoming a Lamborghini. That's an appearance. That's not what's completely unreal is that there's a person that has free will and choice that has a real experience of separation. That's just completely illusory when with it comes the sense that things have value that the appearance is meaning and purpose that is completely illusory that never happens. Everything else is simply what's appearing. It's either real nor unreal. So the zygote is an appearance is the past is an appearance. The thought of eight million people just like evolution is an appearance. Yeah. So evolution is an appearance. The zygote is an appearance. The wheel evolving into the Lamborghini is an appearance. Yeah, seem to happen. But becoming is an illusion. It's becoming of the individual that there is a process of wholeness that will become at some point through my personal development that it is related to me that is completely illusory. Got it. The becoming of the individual. Yeah, going through this gateless gate is a dream is a dream is an illusion. Yeah. And is an illusion slash dream but evolution from a zygote to a human adult or the wheel to the Lamborghini that is an appearance. Yeah. Okay, but then that is not becoming. Well, I mean we can say we can talk about is a tire becoming a Lamborghini. Okay, we can. Okay. Yeah, okay. It's not personal. It's not personal. I see now now I'm following. So that's why you specifically added individual when you said coming of individual is a solution slash dream, but the becoming slash evolution from a zygote to adult. What seems to have happened. Yeah. But at the same time. It's still just this. Evolution is this appearing as evolution. The wheel becoming a Lamborghini is this appearing as the wheel becoming a Lamborghini. All right, and just to clarify this point is that and we can wrap with this that the infinite modulations or the infinite combinations are appearing. And that this is that appearance. It's not a real nor unreal. This is the infinite. Yeah. Doesn't become. There is only the infinite. Cool. There is only the infinite. And yet, there is a zygote that apparently becomes an adult. Which is this the infinite appearing as the story of a zygote becoming an adult, which is this. Okay. Okay. Cool. Cool. Oh, wow. Yeah, Jim, this is this is awesome. I'm ridiculously grateful that you talk to us and thanks. Thanks for inviting me. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, Jim's got an awesome amount of content on his website with essays and videos you can check out again it's simply dash this dot com. And then also his YouTube channels just got all of his meetings that he's held across the world in the last several years he has those filmed and they're on his YouTube channel go and watch those there's a lot of great content there and also the zooms that Jim holds happen monthly and you can join those by simply going to the website and there's a button for the zoom and meetings and then you can sign up for that. Hopefully, what we can do is also get Jim in conversation with other communicators of the of the non dual paradoxical message on the channel which is part of our plan is to get maybe with this Atlas unit to get the Jim Newman unit with maybe other units on the subject which will be exciting. That is all we're really grateful and appreciative for you guys for tuning in. Thank you so much. And we would love to hear from you in the comments below. Let us know what you're thinking what you're feeling in the comments below. And like the video if it brought you value subscribe if you haven't yet also share the video with other people that you feel like would bring value to. And again go and check out all of Jim's awesome links below. We love you very much thank you everybody for tuning in. Thank you so much again Jim we're ridiculously grateful this was fantastic. Thanks man. Alright, thank you everybody we will talk to you soon. Peace.