you i can't handle this attention no sorry well sorry i forgive you but we are indeed live once again god it feels like it wasn't yesterday that we were streaming an e-fap episode to be honest with you yeah it's because it wasn't it was today for me anyway well it was yesterday but not it was only 12 hours ago so you know crazy how life life will get you that way hello chat i was gonna say may as well guarantee that it's gonna cut out at least once during the stream but that's okay we're ready for it we know the drill now it's fine and then hopefully this will be the last one before my new internet is here i mean i guess it's not really a drill it's wait patiently for that's the drill i guess don't panic don't run don't you know assume the worst and go crazy no craziness here only nice and happinessness another of the switch again you know it's like after everything that we did yesterday slash today to stream again feel it does feel a little feels a little odd you know feels a little strange and we got another whole adventure i was actually gonna as mentioned but for me it was like it was work i was doing before we did the stream yesterday and then as soon as we were done with the other stream i did work on it i went to sleep for a bit and then did work on it ready for today i've got a compilation for us the oh yeah you always love those episodes right guys right um that's right i don't know if there were always something it's always something always something there always is his montages of madness but uh yeah i i noted on twitter the streamer azman gold of twitch was getting dog piled harassed and cancelled i that's just a reference to the party fap all he he said about it was just like yeah wow shit i pissed off a bunch of people which is probably a better attitude to say than to say like you've slighted me with cruelty or something you know dramatic and expressive but at the same time it's like what's going on scan on here and you sort of look into it and check it out and there was a main clip that was going viral and then if you dig into it there's some subjects that can be covered and then you know dig enough like i do sometimes and you find stuff that you weren't supposed to find i think or at least most people wouldn't want you to find and uh that's that's with that's what you've got ahead of you today humble e-fap listener who got plenty of things to deal with um but hey you know welcome to e-fap episode number is a 271 271 can you believe it we're almost at the halfway to the anniversary by the way uh man really nice yeah i guess so yeah really like this is probably the most it's ever felt like seriously we it wasn't that like but here if i just you know it's nearly February yeah i give it a couple of days and it'll be February it wasn't crazy january was like five days it's just gone feels like it was five days january always feels quick it's so much happening i guess or is the january's the month when nothing's happening right well uh it feels like it it just feels like it goes by quick yeah i guess so christmas and going on there all over and everything things are sort of going back to normal christmas and the holidays are over you have your little new year's party and then you're just sort of back to it and then for whatever reason it feels quick well we are joined by uh by uh john and moriati two wonderful wonderful people who to be honest with you you've guys been on this show so many times now that i feel bad even introducing you i'm just like whatever there they are you know you know these guys they are experts in the uh in the thing we're going to discuss today not at all two guys that i like the perspective of and ask to be here that's not it it's it's we brought them on for the professional careers in all of the discussions that are going to be had so um nice professional i so that's what we do here make everything perfect and wonderful and really there's not much else to to set up i'm sure many people in chat already know about this because it was all over the place it's probably already old news like yesterday type of thing and takes 40 hours for a thing to just be gone but i find it fascinating and hey it's it's it relates to that pal world game somewhat so you guys like your little video games out there so this will be interesting for you that way yeah i like video games there you go i actually have really enjoyed pal world too so see what is pal world about i don't know anything about it it's valhain with pokemon with guns valhain with pokemon and guns oh all right guns yes yeah there are guns in pal world there are yeah oh what do you do with the guns stare i asked you kill the pals with it you sure do oh my god you kill pals with guns oh yeah and then you can you can chop them up and eat them it's good oh my goodness it's good i don't know if i like this game well it's good i don't like it when you cut up and eat that when you shoot the pals and then cut them up and eat them again you can you can do that to dogs in that too so maybe oh no someone left a comment on our previous evap about how oh so it's it's annoying when you can't shoot children but it's fine when you can set dogs on fire so they'll say what the fuck set dogs on fire this is a reference to something i'm not aware of at all it could maybe it's the oblivion demo or something like that that when todd was showing off the like like how ai could just do stuff the npcs would just sort of do things um one of them set dogs on fire a woman like paralyzed the dog with a spell and stunned it and i think apparently later and this is on the patrician set i think is is she set the dog on fire after after it was stunned and i'm like oh my goodness what a terrible evil person i hope the dark brotherhood stabs her well all right fair enough then all these references i'm just not aware of um but we should probably not delay we should just get right into this first and foremost will be the clip that went viral that was shared we shall see it in its limited context and then we will see people reacting to it and then we will see asmongold talking about what he meant in the clip so see we can follow this story of events so first comes the clip expect me to draw a moral line i have to perceive a difference that i consider substantial and i do not consider the difference substantial between what do you guys that's the problem the clip begins just already is you just like i don't even know what he's talking about so we have to run with this so far no right no and that's really what matters if it was made with a i i'm completely okay with that because it was fun the evidence it's not a great quote in isolation uh it doesn't matter nobody really cares about this developer has been very positive about a i in the past and made an a i game we're gonna play this by the way i art imposter that was an a i artist draw a picture and so that that was like like one of the games we're going this this week yes just generally has been much more positive about some of the benefits of a i rather than what is the normal sentiment amongst artists and and you know i guess general twitter population which is that you know a i is bad and it takes jobs well a i and the sentiment from artists artist opinions don't matter it just doesn't matter because what matters is the opinion of the people that are buying the product like it doesn't like your opinion on it like just because you do it doesn't like nobody cares like it's not it's not relevant it's like whenever one of these like you know really well respected and and really respectable directors talks about how bad marvel shut up old man shut up i like watching the thorn movie it was cool am i that's the clip that got around i'm uh my my opinion that asman gold is a a simpleton is this isn't helping damn all right it ain't it ain't helping i uh is for me that i sort of agree with him but i disagree with him at the same time my problem is this new context i don't fuck i need to know more about what they do yeah right like if it's just the kind of vague idea that that an artist's opinion doesn't matter on its commercial viability yeah i agree with that right like no well wait wait surely speaking of whether it whether it sells copies exactly you know that's just well all all he's saying is the thing that determines whether or not things are sold as if people buy them right which i agree with let's see if people people things are sold if people buy them is what he said yeah uh so it's kind of hard to disagree with that i feel like i need a lot more context well yeah you know when he said um uh i don't care if someone's made with ai it was fun it's like as a contextless clip there are contexts in which that that could be a really bad statement um but there's also context where it could be absolutely fine it's uh i just need to know more you know so it's like okay uh like i said we're going to see some people fine i think that those aren't going to be the typical context though um if you for instance i'm playing a dnd game and sargon's the dm and i'm playing with devy and arch and sargon is using he just like an image generator to just pop out some like npc faces and some stuff like that for the you know just the dnd game that we're playing and and that's useful for that you know so that's pretty it's it's good that he has that tool to work with um you know it helps for him to just sort of like generate something on the fly that does a decent enough job at getting a kind of you know an image or a vibe of you know whoever or wherever we are um but we don't treat it with a lot of we don't treat it with any reverence and he's not like yes i'm a i'm a artist and i'm able to really to create these worlds and do all these things because i could put the tags into the generator that's not being monetized um yeah i mean we're getting some super chess from it but yeah essentially yeah it's not being monetized he's not saying that i am an artist because i can do these things with the ai image generator right and you're not selling the art right like even though the art is being used there it's not the art that's being sold it's your experience and people are coming to see you and and watch uh you play a game right has nothing to do with the art the art is is purely supplemental to the experience in that case uh i think that's fine i think ai has a lot of i'm not a leadite right like i have a lot of uh uh hope for ai in the future um it's when it becomes sort of creative that i'm not a big fan of it at the moment uh and it's not even so much that it's like a not a big fan of it being used but just how it's being you seeing i think so yeah like creative in an artistic context right yeah when people like i'm an artist because i put in the words and then it generated a thousand pictures and i pick the ones that i like that's like you're not you're not an artist mate like don't say that you're you're some you're so tall it's the combination of saying i'm a talented artist and i'm amazing because i can do this and also like actual real artists they're shit and they suck balls and they're terrible do you remember um when we're covering denims she she generated the word uh curator as opposed to if if if she's the one that's choosing things and then people are entertained by it like she still has she she gets some level of appreciation for that right it's like um i and again i think it's it's very much about the use case if i'm wizards of the coast and i'm using artificial intelligence machine learning art generation right to create a card that i'm going to sell to you in a pack of magic cards i think that and i'm firing my artists at the exact same time which is what has been happening yeah i see some problems with that in the same way that i see problems with you know replacing anybody with automation i think that automation has issues commercially i can see that problem and i can see the problem with misrepresenting it to me the audience that is buying that where i'm saying my main issue with with this game right like i love this game and i want to play this game and i love the artwork on it and you're giving me something that was created in a matter of seconds right that's an issue for me i don't have a problem with somebody using it because i want to make a meme of brian griffin giving a hand job i don't yeah yeah that's it's fine um but even going to into the card stuff i know like when i played magic that sometimes you would recognize an artist's style in different cards that you owned and you're like oh that was a cool thing to notice where without even looking at the the little signature that might be on it you just you notice that oh this card in this card they have a similar style oh it's the same artist you know and that that's kind of like a neat little thing um instead of especially with the ai that's generated now that the the ai images now they're just they all look the fucking same and there's a problem with sort of correlating ai with everything right like if you're using ai as a sort of a an ad hoc editor uh to highlight issues that you maybe didn't see in a piece of of written work i can absolutely understand using that because you're using it as a tool and in that case it's no different than a grammar checker in a lot of if you're using ai because you want to shortcut your entire creative process that's an issue for me especially if you are trying to receive remuneration for it right like that's where it becomes a an ethical sticky point for me and i i should clarify because i'm sure that people i can see people in the chat mentioning my name but i'm not reading you yet um i'm sure that there are people who who will take that nuance to take in some sort of a very negative way um i'm not an expert on machine learning right but i i just i know that there are lots of use cases where ai is very very good if an ai can determine a cancer cell better than a human then it should be used if an ai can drive a car better than a human then it should be used uh it's when it becomes creative and when it affects uh commerce right when we're selling it to somebody like it has value that's when it becomes an issue to me in a creative set yeah like there's this there's this element of it just it seems like it sucks the soul out of things and i don't want to lose yeah right like there is no as an artist right like creating art going to to the philadelphia museum of art which i love because it has a whole lot of uh kandinsky and kandinsky is my favorite artist i love him so much seeing a kandinsky piece seeing it next to a Picasso and seeing these two artists and going wow look at you know the decades that brought them to these pieces these beautiful pieces that are affecting me emotionally and and i'm loving everything that i'm seeing here you know that's not something that you can replicate with ai you may be able to replicate something there but there's more of the human emotional attachment to these great pieces of art we we aren't seeing that i know that's not really the discussion here because we're talking about pokemon right and to be clear there is no evidence that pow world has any ai in it whatsoever not a single trace of it and i guarantee you that if there is nintendo with their billions of lawyers we'll find it eventually and it hasn't been found yet so that should tell you what you need to know about um if there's ai being used to steal pokemon right we'll find out but it's not existing in this and and i know that that's what we're talking about and i know that that's what asman will be talking about but it just gets simplified and condensed into this concept that all ai is bad because shad right like that's not it i'm sorry i'm going off surely the scope of the conversation will go beyond pow world here right i mean it doesn't stick on pow world for a moment a second it's uh it's really not about i don't know anything about it really other than um memes and nintendo lawsuit potentially yeah but i don't know what's going on with it it's just interesting to listen to uh opinions going back and forth and i love how fiery chat is we got both directions uh super passionate you guys have fun all right enjoy all these terrible takes chat um but what i was going to say it by the way it was like i wouldn't run with the whole like you know you said it all looks the same rags like well first of all even it won't forever but i mean i've seen all kinds of different ai generations that are different than the one you're probably referring to with the the murky blaring of weird things the weird thing is like we know that one commonly but sometimes yeah but what are you talking about it doesn't let it doesn't literally all look this i don't know if i can describe it verbally um you think you can tell whenever it's ai yeah i can usually tell that ever once in a while maybe i won't but for the most part just know all right i guess i love you but no i don't think you know right like you wouldn't be able to know that you're seeing it or not and this i've already been tricked a couple of times by different pieces i'll just be like oh shit it's ai right okay um but that's still i i think still relevant the fact that it's uh it causes a particular experience there's plenty that i can recognize easily but if i'm talking about all of it and some of the best stuff that's even designed to pass like you know the average smell check sort of thing uh it wouldn't matter anyway because we're gonna get through anyway the more relevant part of the conversation is if the technology is going to get to the point where it's going to get harder and harder to distinguish let's just fast forward past that conversation and get to the more fundamental questions that we actually care about when it comes to the topic of to help people understand jackson pollock's paintings versus an ai generation of one it would be pretty fucking hard for you to tell me which one of the five one of them is ai it's like good luck yeah it'd be very difficult but it's gonna be better because you know dolly came out what two years ago three years ago yeah and uh and it's already at this point now where you are generating stuff that is getting to congress with taylor swift being you know in porn um it's it's not gonna be much longer before we really won't be yeah that's the other part is the a lot of these uh points of con uh i don't know contention will evaporate over time with just the further generation so i feel like the argument needs to evolve and be more fundamental perhaps but we shall cover it the longer we go through because uh all kinds of things get brought up you just saw that i don't really understand much of it at all that's the thing it's it's it's kind of lame that it went as viral as it did because it's so contextless but we're gonna see some very angry responses to it the wrong about this looking at so many people angry with what i said is kind of shocking to me when you go to market with a product the only thing that matters is the consumer's perception of that product's value when did this come wrong only thing that matters if you yeah if you think that people are upset because you said people like like people determine like the like the supplies i don't even know how to like distill it down it's not the only thing that matters it's a thing that matters yeah it's not the only thing that matters well i was thinking that it's a super corporate soulless way of looking at things and well it's just you know there's the the idea of a stakeholder right that that doesn't necessarily include people who are like directly financially in connection with the company or its products it can it can relate to people who indirectly connected to the product compared to like a shareholder who owns the company there are there are stakeholders but when he says it's the only thing that matters matters to what to what yes exactly what does it matter to because if we're talking about what does it matter with regards to how much money it makes right that could definitely be the major determining factor is whether or not people buy it but but i might not buy it if the artist is like a really shitty asshole you know if he's a piece of shit and he sucks and he says bad things about me or the people that i like and know and then i might not buy his stuff i mean we see lots of people not being or rather separating art and artist and still buying the art even if they don't like the you see that all the time well yeah that that rides point would be that some people don't sure sure yeah and therefore therefore it would be said that it matters it can matter but then wouldn't that be the the consumer's perception of the product's value right like this is such a we have to know what he's talking about matters we need more specific claims still is what his name yes exactly the success of power world proves that the only thing customers actually care about is a good game by slavery bestiality copyright infringement it's a video game these are pretend problems that people don't actually care about make good game equals people buy game simple okay uh yeah so do you know that there is a huge market for organic food and free range chickens and stuff of that nature where people will go out of their way and even pay more for no tangible gain apart from that is actually gonna be ethically brought up later as a counterpoint but this is just at this point i'd be like so these are just unwise statements like i don't know why you would what why you would think people would be very angry for saying things like this yeah it's like people have ethics people have personal tastes and stuff like that you wouldn't see you know printed on recycled paper if you didn't it would be a non statement that meant nothing it would be a waste of ink to point to to put that on a card it says printed on recycled paper if people didn't care about these things also the to it this is not really it's the slavery and bestiality part i have no idea where that comes from but if it's referencing the game then it it's not really those things no no i think he's talking about so like slavery would be the production of like you know like sweatshops and stuff and then bestiality might be in relation to how animals are treated in certain industries i'm not sure this is all part of the game this is all power a hundred percent power well but those things as rags supposed to say that those the ai and copyright infringement are different from slavery and bestiality yeah those are all power yeah but two of them are in the game two of them are the matter of the game's creation well the slavery is kind of in there too you have sweatshops you can beat them you can put them on yeah that's in the game so the concept of yeah it's in the game you can put two of these things are meta things two of them are in the game and they're not even the real thing they're not you're not actually i don't know if you could fuck the pals or whatever but if uh but yeah it's not actually the thing itself yeah yeah i get that the the bcla is more implied right like there's a specific pal that says that they will want to sleep with human i don't even know i don't care about any of that i don't that's that's not i thought we were talking strictly about people's sort of desire for fun or you know consuming products will overwrite any moral issue they have with the creation of said product i thought that was the thing that we were talking about because those people exist but well they might be the most common as well but it's not an absolute which is what seems to be said here the success power proves the only thing customers actually care about is a good game which is funny because i've seen a lot of people saying the power isn't a good game like from the ground up is like designed like it's rushed and it's broken i'm already you have shit tasting video you're gonna let baller get away with that well so what i was about to say is that a good game could be a game you enjoy or could be a well-designed game or could be both i don't know sure yeah you know in this tweet and a little or a little in this tweet and then in the clip that we just saw i think what part of what's getting him into trouble is he's conflating nobody cares and it doesn't matter like he's sort of using those interchangeably i think there's a bit of a difference there like i'm sure there's a lot of people who like will buy iPhones but they're like aware of like apple sweatshops and they'll be like oh isn't that terrible i'm an example of that one iphone please yeah i bought a guy i bought a second hand one from a person so that i didn't you know buy from apple right so so i think plenty of people would agree that a lot of people don't care about the means in which these products are generated and they'll get the product anyway but that doesn't mean that it doesn't matter i mean it's a problem yeah that's the what sweatshop the discussion but that that gives you guys the groundwork for his statements and now we get to see some people responding to him and we can we can sort of check out if we think these people are reasonable or just furious for everyone saying that has mingo is right just as an example as well this is literally a show that i think is a is pretty good show but some people won't watch it because they think that we're terrible horrible no good very bad people true um yep so they just won't watch the show and so that's just this is another example of that right a little reminder that a cherry picked consensus of nobody cares doesn't makes these things pretend problems they're real problems that people like him are simply too lazy and apathetic to care about there's a difference i consider that's the problem right you see what i was saying a problem well yeah he's using the wrong words you almost wish you could speak directly to asma gold because you're like you don't mean this right because that would be crazy and then i feel like you'd be like no i don't mean that i mean this you right right right right yeah okay because yeah i don't think he thinks that nobody cares like you know in isolation as a statement i think it's not going to be that it's going to be something else um but again like this is the thing this is the internet so this is this what happens now with with responses the end apathetic to care about there's a difference i consider zack to be a pretty good colleague in this space and i really feel this would have done better with a lot more empathy towards artists he's right that most consumers only care about the end product and not the ethics associated with and the industry will proceed with ai no matter what i wish most people could understand when it comes to artists it's mostly their data that these models are trained with and i feel if we're to use ai without the morals weighing us down we have to fin da way to compensate or give attributions to those whose art has fed these neural networks ai can be used for a lot of cool things and even game development by reducing crunch in many ways but for now we have to look at ways to properly credit those whose art is used without their consent to make these massive systems boy i i don't agree with this at all so i again i don't think that consumers only care about end products i just think that in the vast vast majority of cases no product is ever going to cross that ethical line that most people probably have um oh like there's a there's a zone a series of zones right like you can get away with x but once you do this you can't knowing if someone if someone buys shoes that were made by someone in a sweatshop on the other side of the world like no one feels good about doing that you know but a lot of people either don't think about it don't know about it or they're like as like it doesn't really matter to me but if they knew that it was but but if it came out and it said yeah that these are they're actually using slaves and they're being beaten and whipped and they're not paid at all and everything then yeah i think that company would actually die um well diamonds are proof that that doesn't rags right like that's proof that it doesn't because a significant number of blood diamonds are on the market and nobody cares and i'll give you a better example actually which is chocolate nearly a hundred percent of all cacao is farmed by child labor right nearly a hundred percent so if you're eating chocolate there is a nearly hundred percent chance that that bite of chocolate was farmed at some point by children it is just a fact wait is everyone still here is such a quagmire of a philosophical discussion because it's very difficult to have a consumer who understands the complete information of production processes and ethical practices with companies right and even with that sort of increased awareness your individual choice how much is it going to affect because it's very difficult to get into that kind of a thing and i disagree with this because it's taking a fence sitting position that it's okay to steal but as long as you credit right like that's what he's saying here um it's a very complex thing with with personal ethical trade-offs for how much you're willing to give uh into ethical consumerism rags do you have anything on the diamond thing i don't know what's the proximity to who the victims may or may not be um the fact that someone might be if if artist is if you if an ai essentially steals from some artist you've never met on the internet and don't know about then it will be different than knowing that artist personally and having them come to you and say that you know they're really upset that they found some you know drawing image generator that clearly stole one of their images um or if or or if you were you know living down the street from or if you met the you know the sweatshop worker or the the slave or whatever it was but when you're so removed from everything it's just that i guess human tendency to be you know less empathetic with people who are really far far away from you that you've never met yeah yeah i did how local it is to you absolutely you know um if you have to go and choose every chicken that you're going to eat right every single time and then you have to watch it die it's a lot different than going to a supermarket right i think um what we're highlighting here is that there's a a lot of care the word of the use the word care has been used like a binary like people either care or they don't when it's way more complicated than that yeah everyone pretty much everyone cares to some degree it's just where that line is and how how it affects them and they're well do they care more than their consumption of the product yeah which is everyone's drawing a line differently for that we can go to streams on both hands well i guess it's just like you know because most consumers only care about the product it's like i guess i guess generally sure but like what are boycotts look like if not the people a lot of people at the same time getting really uh uh worked up about a particular thing related to the product and then that manifesting in major ways commercially um i guess it's it's it's just like what is what is the thing that people are focusing on and right now people are focused on a i i still i don't know i i surely this response would mean it's like well i mean i i guess he would point to like well the game sold even though you were saying moriarty that there's no there's no evidence that power world uses our ai and anything but like even if there was that it's like well the game sold really well but then i guess you point to the flip side that there are people who are really pissed off about the game and pissed off about well yes i could totally see someone being like i am playing powwilds if let's say well we could just make up a game since it doesn't apply to powwild apparently but a game that has copied everything from somewhere else someone could be like i am playing that on ethical grounds you could be like okay fair enough and then some nice person might not you know like it it exists i'll give you a real world example that happened about a year ago actually was the the harry potter's game oh yeah a lot of people were did not want to engage with that because they don't want to enrich jk rowling yeah but they also that felt like strizand effects like situation well i think pow world is too pow world is is probably going to be the best selling game of this year it has sold 10 million copies on steam alone that's not including xbox it's not including game pass it's probably the best selling game already of the so there's good chance this is also a strizand well i mean yeah well the thing is that this ai thing seems to be ill founded for like pow world that's that's what i'm gathering because you can have a conversation regardless but it seems like a lot of people are saying that's this bullshit about the and that steam would have removed it had it done that it's just a total misunderstanding it is it is association guilt right it is people saying okay so the ceo at one point went to an ai conference and said that buzzfeed could use ai to rip off pokemon right oh clearly he did that then right it's not like well that it's because it's obviously inspired by pokemon a clearly and it's of course it is and it's intentionally so that's the whole marketing idea is that it's pokemon with guns it's literally their marketing you know message is a look pokemon with guns but but it's it's association that since he went to this thing it's like saying oh yeah i bought some bitcoin ones oh your crypto bro who's out there you know scamming nfts it's not the same thing you you are you're saying something you know here and people are accusing you of guilt because of that right like literally association um and there's nothing there's no evidence of that at all in this product so it's such a bad argument and and it's worse to see mutahar saying stuff like this because it's a fence sitting argument um what the part like the second half of the tweet right like you have to have this you have to agree that the art is being stolen without consent right like that has to be oh well i guess it and we are we talking about power world or like in general when it comes to me he's not talking about power world right i well i guess so the thing is i don't know whether people agree or disagree on whether the the these models like being trained on art that exists now is stealing or if it's fair use i'm pretty sure that's the thing that people fight about a lot all the time yeah so yeah i i so if it was like one has to make a decision on what they think is the case there and then of course whether or not if you know like whether or not there should be any change to the law in response to our in response to their stuff being uh becoming more um prominent yeah which goes back to ethical consumerism right like is if it's legal is it ethical right yeah like that's immediately a part of that conversation this is a quagmire of a discussion by the way we're not going to come up with an answer because there is no good answer yeah this is one of those you know yeah this is currently being discussed we're figuring it all out it's a big old society yes i think that's why this would be seen as fence sitting in the sense of it's like we need to make sure the bad things don't happen other the good things do happen it's like yes yes i mean pretty much we don't really know what they are yet yeah we're just again it's like part of the conversation is what are what are what are some of the outcomes that people can see and whether or not they're acceptable or unacceptable for instance the idea that many many many many many many artists could be losing employment in the future because of these tools is that is that a future that people are okay with or is that a future that people aren't okay with it's worth thinking about right but in terms of figuring out well okay if that's the case then does there need to be any changes reflected in i guess like consumer mindsets or legislation or anything like that well this is probably one of the calmer responses compared to what we're about to see oh good he's literally correct you can be angry all you want but consumers don't care how the product is made they care about the product itself all our technology is made from an unethical source yet here we are picking and choosing what to be angry about people um such a 101's this like that is super 101 right yeah this is the idea that you can't possibly buy what you were saying you can't be purely ethical so fuck it is not a great attitude yes i feel like we've already acknowledged and everyone does is like yeah we have limits and we are hypocritical like human beings but that doesn't mean we throw it all out right yes yeah i mean here's the thing right like i i would really like to be able to buy a phone that doesn't have the potential of slavery or blood in my hands but i also need a phone because that's the modern world and i'm not going to go live in a cave you know and eat just berries that's not going to be a thing that happens for me so i have to live within this ethical construct that we have and part of that means that in order to have a mobile phone i have to accept that that mobile phone has blood on it right like that's part of the the the agreement that we have with society is yes there's terrible things and we just got a fucking well yeah and we try to encourage everybody everybody tries to encourage everybody else to take even small strides and doing better things to make the place overall but that we simultaneously and advocacy and campaigns and boycotts and all those things are good parts of this yes yeah i mean ethical consumptions like i feel like everybody does engage with it somewhat um you try and we try to encourage you don't eat dog that's that's the first step right like you don't go in there and just just just pick these because you you feel this and you refuse to make that that step right well yeah because of i think uh if someone started with we only consume ethically then someone's like i've got you here here here and here you're inconsistent i feel like you can do the reverse which is we really only uh unethically consume and then someone could be like well no we got you here here and here you've made choices that are exclusively for ethical reasons yes so i would say that uh it's a little bit more complicated than that so i just said so you have no point like yes that's that's what i said yeah that's that yes you're right we have no point we have said nothing about you good job people often ask why games aren't considered art and i think this guy and a lot of the replies perfectly encapsulates part of it a lot of gamers and the industry itself simply treat games as products to be consumed and nothing more they don't give a shit about art so with this this right here right he is unfortunately equating the two meanings of the word right games are arts in the big kind of way that they are art and games are products that have literal art in them and there is a difference between those two meanings of the word fucking art yeah this is like um if there was like a tree to represent all the different arguments happening at once maybe even words and all the different definitions that they have of them how this thing gets out of hand real quick yes because now we're saying the asmongold is the reason people don't consider games art which is like uh i'll never understand the cognitive dissonance someone must have to consistently complain about modern entertainment and then promote a technology that is specifically designed to produce mass market slot break well so that one geez that that one's interesting to me as well because yeah like uh i assume has been a much like we do would say you should support games that are not only good like in terms of just content or execution but also industry related stuff it's like that you pick carefully without getting what uh companies you support and what creators you support and so it'd be like well well why care shouldn't you just go for whatever game is good quote-unquote we don't care about crunch if we didn't there wouldn't be this whole thing of oh we don't want our our developers crunch we'd be saying no crunch we want more games quicklier well and some people don't care about crunch which is sure some people think that fuck it you have crunch i don't care get me my game which is uh another whole subset of people i suppose it's just the uh i guess how much of this matters right if we if the starting statement is that none of it matters beyond how much you enjoy the thing it'd be like wow not quite you know yeah considering we're not aware of this i'm sorry right yeah i was uh deciding relating to the tweet is this well who was it who took the who was the game youtuber who took the um braid shadow legends ad was it skill up or who was it i think skill is one of people go on trouble for something like that right there's a couple of them yeah um but it's like this gives me the similar energy to that of you can't bitch and whine about how games are getting worse and how bad these companies are and all the layoffs and things like that and then also say well it's it's only what you know gets bought that matters it's only the product that matters and then say i don't care i had fun with the game so who cares if it was you know generated with a i it's like you gotta pick one you can't straddle both of these things yes gonna make some wonder what you actually care about if you know that's how you're looking at it and it's very personal right that was that way that was synthetic but it's like oh yes the man who argued that like modern gaming is a disaster but you should go play ray shadow legend he's a very ethical guy attainment and then promote a technology that is specifically designed to produce mass market slop breaking microsoft is laying off 1,900 people in its gaming division including activision blizzard just three months after closing its 69 billion dollars acquisition story coming shortly first the layoffs yes i had a text back to over the last couple years reported by this one right with with microsoft we knew this because they just bought uh 15 to 19 thousand employees when they picked up activision blizzard right like a 10 loss or even a 15 loss of redundancy is probably to be expected i know not everybody and that was redundant but a lot of them are going to be hr and it and things like that that frankly in a 70 billion dollar acquisition we knew about this a year and a half ago when it was announced there's gonna i guess it's just that it coincides with uh with with a trend that's been occurring broadly across the industry and this one is the biggest right yeah so five thousand or six thousand people are gone already this year yeah yeah last january and it's january right so already six thousand people have been laid off so there's a third of of all the people have been laid off in uh 2024 2023 there was like 10 000 people so it's a big it's a big jump already to see this many people being in the industry but that being said in this particular case while it is almost certainly a part or rather a confluence of the market as well there is this amount of redundancy that was expected and should have been expected and nobody should be surprised that people were laid off during this because it always happens in these mega acquisition just a fact of how it works well yeah well when you have companies operating independently they're prone to bloat you know like hiring too many people that they don't actually need and then all of a sudden you've got a big company that's overseeing everything assessing everything going hmm we don't need you we don't need you right yeah and it makes sense urge can't imagine how it must feel to work at blizzard and have one of your biggest personalities trending yesterday saying artists don't matter only for you your friends to get laid off today the artist don't matter has now been taken as just a a statement of fact in general which is obviously i mean presumably yeah like i mean i presume that he believes that otis matter the games that he likes matter well so what's what's interesting is um because i i've seen basically all of what has been called us several others uh it's very late into this whole discussion that he draws a distinction between personal value and market value and it's like which feels really like the word value you know like in matters these are careful with those words they can mean a lot of things a lot of things and it depends on who you're talking to by the way these are all these are all some of the highest like tweets that's that's that's why these have been shown this is all the cancellation quote-unquote of azmongold or all these tweets i think it's very interesting that we we see azmongold being considered owned by blizzard or even you know part of it just because he played wow a lot it's been like a really prominent is he like the most prominent sort of uh i guess world of warcraft related personality big i mean he comes from blizzard games right like he's a hearthstone and wow player that's like what he did where he comes from but this is in my mind the same as saying oh ninja he's speaking for epic because he played a lot of fortune well he's just he's he's a fan of blizzard right he's not taking payments or he wasn't an ex-employer he probably does get paid for things i i'm not going to even pretend to understand where but i'm sure he's been you know paid to go to blizzcon or something but he's not like right by them not an employee i mean i don't know i'm just wondering yeah i've never yeah i've never known him to do people see azmongold like that like he speaks for blizzard that seems strange apparently i know to be something i get clarification on it i didn't know if he had any connection to them beyond the fact that he played their games i have no idea yeah none no clue a couple of people in chav said blizzard hate him so there you go in his filth consuming things that wouldn't exist without artists shits on artists shits on devs shits on gamers probably shits on the floor in his bare mind this had like a 10 000 likes or something bedroom and still somehow people will say he's based anyways don't listen to me my opinion doesn't matter like the whole artist don't matter thing is just like it's it's it's gone way out of control artists opinion don't matter i regret ever listening to his streams watching his youtube videos every day for years on a side note it's funny how he shames wow devs for being lazy and then praises all others for being lazy he can't keep his own opinions consistent um did he not keep it consistent or did he give nuances well so what's what's interesting is like uh he's he would have shamed wow devs being lazy like so if if this the context for this is that he's critical of wow is like recent release and he sees evidence of lazy development versus someone's using ai which by the way not necessarily about power power think of this as theoretical someone uses ai to create a game that he finds fantastic and they he finds out they made it in like two minutes i don't think he'd care that much even though technically speaking that person's more lazy than the one that did the work he didn't like i think that would be so sort of something he wanted to highlight about reality he says that a couple times he he's not trying to he believes what he's saying is stating what is true what what people actually do and say and think and feel not that he's uh well we talked about it before on the subject of like how much do people value the effort or lack thereof on a game that is being worked on and i've talked about a lot because i find it a oh pardon me a really interesting quote it was in relation to halo two which uh was notorious in terms of uh crunch on that game and it was something that uh i'm paraphrasing but jason jones said it was something along the lines of they don't care you know they don't care if it took you six hours or if it took you six years and a gallon of blood um in relation to at the end of the day what people are invested in is the thing that you create um and obviously the things that you would add on to that is i think what you can see a lot of the time is that when people really like the thing that you've made when they also see that you worked really hard on it that earns you points i mean you see it with long rings all the time everybody talks about how hard they worked on that all the effort that went into crafting those films that people really care about that but then i think that the flip side would be if you made something that sucked and then you showed people that you had actually worked really hard on it that's not going to make them like it um they're still going to dislike it at the end of the day all of the work that you're putting into anything that you create the whole point of that work is that it's going to reflect in the final thing that you create the final piece that you create whether you know it's a game or a movie or anything like that that's what all the work is going into yeah um i think we see this too as youtubers maybe a little bit more closely right we can spend a thousand hours editing a video and it doesn't get any traction that doesn't mean that we earn you know we're owed views because we spent a thousand hours on this if the content is bad then the content is bad well in this case out of our control like discoverability and algorithm and stuff like that so i know genuinely could just be something that everyone's just not interested in too niche you know right nobody wants to care listen to you talk about you know your favorite type of bread or whatever like that's just not something people are interested in they don't click and they don't watch uh and that doesn't mean that just because you put thousands of hours in that oh i spent six thousand hours three years working 40 hours a week on this video that doesn't mean anything there's no minimum amount of hourly you know worth or value i suppose that that gets added into something if you sit and and stir a paint can for a thousand hours before you make a single mark that's not a thousand hour painting that somebody should care about right yeah that's another interesting bit of uh crazy d ones i would say but i worked really hard stirring stirring that paint for a thousand hours for no reason i remember it's uh it might be compensated i think it was the the one about the modern art one you remember that one um where he was talking about how there was like was it like a blank canvas or something or it was white yeah it was totally smooth the amount of effort that went into how difficult it would have been to make it look the way that it did and it's like yeah that's cool bro i can't see the rough strokes on it it's like yeah i sure can't it's nothing for me anyway what's in the next room yeah and i guess um yeah but but at the same time it's it's um you know that that can be aspects of like the nature of how like for instance with um with uh modern warfare three right finding out that that was dlc that probably got well that got spun into a uh into a full game and then got made in a very short amount of time it's like well when people find that out you know that's gonna contribute in some sense to their perspective on it in this case negatively um so like there's a an artist named i'm sorry no you go ahead there's an artist named mandrian uh who is somewhat famous because he makes these uh color blocks with like black lines in between it you've probably seen them throughout your life they're you know somewhat famous obviously uh and part of the thing about them is that he makes these all very very perfect lines even though he didn't you know ostensibly use uh tape or anything like that and you can't see the paint brush marks of the strokes in the paint right so you get very close to them and you go wow you can't tell that this wasn't printed even though it was made you know 1920s or something like that um that doesn't i think matter necessarily to somebody who is just looking at it today on on you know a print or something like that they're either enjoying it or they're not and and i think that's maybe a good analog for how very little that kind of stuff mattered well it's really fucking hard to solve a lot of this ultimately um i've already seen someone say like no matter how much you'd spend on a thing it doesn't give it intrinsic value as though anybody believes that is necessarily true because no i'm just thinking just i just had a thought for a while like intrinsic what does that even necessarily mean what can it mean and what would a bunch of people interpret that you mean would you use it um the the one that's on screen right now this is evidence to be there's like many people's feelings are being hurt and many people's fundamental identities in relation to the fundamental beliefs are being shaken i think that also explains how angry people in chat are i was like try not to uh fall into that trap all right everybody we're chill we're just having a chill out we're just just calm down seen a lot of people caps lock in a lot of people using lyre like before establishing what their point is like you got to calm down just having a chat i knew as soon as i saw it i told you as soon as i saw what this title was i knew i was gonna make people mad today oh you can't not make people mad on this one but i find it that's yeah what i'm fascinated by i suppose is uh a bit of the human nature going on here like um see an aspen gold's quote is just just like that's awkwardly cut at the beginning to the point where i can't even start you know understanding what he's saying and then he says something that i'm like no way he meant the crazier thing and then i find out obviously he doesn't mean the crazier thing and then of course everyone is like it's it's we're getting a bit of telephone happening where somewhat the previous tweet said he said that artists don't matter like what just in general like if you become an artist he's not matterings like he talks about him like i don't fucking matter jeez i disagree i don't think so um and maybe it's because i have the benefit of having seen him talk more about his perspective so maybe you'll change your mind maybe what i've seen it seems right now why it's super dismissive and yeah i'm just lost yeah yeah to be fair you should be you should be lost because this this is the experience of watching someone get like all kinds of shit said about them it feels like i've been dropped into the middle of a conversation that's been gone for a while how have so many people missed the fact that asman saying artists opinions don't matter is in a business sense the average consumer will not care about artists views on a game they enjoy i don't see this you know what meaning that artists opinions don't matter in general um you know people did get mad when martin scorsese an artist expressed his opinion on the nature of marvel movies yeah in both directions they did care and now whether or not it had an actual like business impact well maybe it did i don't know because like marvel movies have started to fail now though i mean obviously there's a variety of explanations for that but i mean that would be an example of well an artist opinion i mean it did matter everybody was talking about it for ages and it may well have had an impact um and i think that uh this is so very complicated because artist opinions don't matter in a business sense like so you're saying that like any any old artist opinion about the state of the art in terms of its production or quality doesn't really matter to how much it sells it's like but it does though even if in a small way it totally would i mean it's a huge way because it's their opinion and their taste that creates the thing that people buy i mean it's it's like necessary yeah they're all kinds of like like i mean just fundamental recommendations for all of us on on youtube to people it's why certain things are seen or understood right and so at this point i'm just curious where the line is drawn between artist opinions don't matter in a business sense compared to that is what that so if someone said like all the matters is the people who's consuming its opinion it's like okay so opinion can potentially be influenced by what they hear from other people and they could be an artist they could be the one that made it yeah exactly this is such a stupid thing though because i don't think that's what has been gold was even saying right like he was saying that once the product is finished the finished product the only thing that matters to to its ability to sell is whether people want to buy it well is not i think a controversial opinion a big everybody else is saying oh but artists let's say a big gut shot to this too is the several times we've had evidence of fundamental big creators who've made a thing getting swayed by either individuals or then eventually public opinion of their creation so for example the recent one with uh james summerton right like he nuked his entire experience on the internet because one person's channel claimed and with proof that that he was creating his artwork or his expression in an unethical way and then everyone found out and then he ran away because he was like holy fuck you've you've discovered my my immorality and to an extent then you have um artists that will switch up as they go along like with their work because of different people's individual opinions spreading out more so about the thing whether or not the thing itself is good or fun and and that's the thing i broadly agree that most people just consume and i don't even want to i'm not even trying to frame that as a negative right now that would be for a different conversation but the nature of more pressing concerns in their life but the uh when you know certain things about so for example um someone tate took a lot of meaning from a james summerton video and then someone says you know he didn't work very hard on that he actually wrote that in like a half hour that might make you think he's more impressive like holy shit you did that that quickly but then when you find i was like well no he copied it from someone in half an hour he's like oh so now all my appreciation for him as an artist through the the work itself isn't it belongs to someone else not him and i actually think that starts to hit on the fundamental issue for a lot of people with ai art like uh they want they want a source to appreciate for their new found you know meaning whatever and it's like it doesn't belong to any individual especially when you talk about the idea of it being paired with uh talent and hard work and years and years and years of practice and training i'm i'm gonna like throw it right out into the weeds i don't necessarily think that just because you know uh you know that james summerton for example copied that that you can't still get value out of it oh absolutely as an as an audience right like i even knowing that the stuff that thieves have yeah they it's stolen but yeah like i said they have a value to them yeah the big change wouldn't be that they no longer like the video they might not like the video but like they may not they may self i'm meaning it but the now it won't be james summerton that's responsible for that it'll be the person you stole it from they will rather attribute to them that doesn't necessarily have to change how you feel about what you got from it right like if if i am a huge fan of an author and then it turns out that uh you know we find out 10 years after i've read every book they wrote that um they stole all of it from someone else i don't think that that necessarily changes the value that i got out of it right like i would have read the words from any author no i don't necessarily disagree with that and obviously that's going to be different for everybody i'd say this is exactly how i imagined entitled consumers would view the ai stuff because to them it's all about if they get their fun little art fix no thanks for the many people behind the media they depend on we are a means to an end you're a shitty person if you feel this way okay but but like you're working as an artist right like you're getting paid to make commercial art at the same time i did oh like sort of i this is i think this is sort of poorly worded but i think the idea at the core of it i agree with uh there needs to be a i think people need to remember that the content that they consume often for free or for virtually free has to come from somewhere people have to work on it it has to be made it has to take a a level of talent and skill and oftentimes passion and a lot of people take that for granted they don't think about all the things that go into making the stuff that they consume without a second thought we don't want to foster a world where people devalue the talents that people hone and train and learn to do especially if that stuff is stuff that you can't do and i think a lot of us will be because we do tend to want people to know where the thing they love comes from we want that in information ourselves sometimes right like if we if we enjoy a particular piece of artwork and all of them have the same signature i'm like who even is this person because the or you realize like seven of your favorite films are all from the same director and you didn't even notice that because you were too young at first and to like care about it or something and and there's like a sense of oh wow that that you get to appreciate that person's talent sort of thing but the reality is most people i think uh rye's kind of measured this recently like the um most people with most things in life aren't going through understanding everything about where it came from or how it works or who made it it does serve a function is this same like someone go to the supermarket and go wow isn't it crazy that i can get basically any food that i could ever want at like my convenience and then store it in a refrigerator to consume at my convenience you're not often thinking about about this you need to have some perspective of how good you have it to be able to do that um yeah it just comes to the top and go wow plumbing that's pretty cool yeah just remember how good your life is i've had that thought every once in a while here in the yeah but it's like remember every day right pretty much all of us we we shit in purified water oh yeah like that's how insanely good our lives are the stuff that people would kill for back in the day we literally use it to shit in and flush away into the sewer i have two thought experiments for the chat right because i think this will help them kind of determine some of this stuff um first what if the Mona Lisa is in fact a forgery right there's there's a lot of questions about whether or not it was stolen and and uh the one that is currently in the Louvre is a forgery and how would that affect the sort of effect of the Mona Lisa and does it right is seeing the Mona Lisa knowing that that is in fact not Da Vinci's original but a forgery does that change the effect of the model and then i'll throw another one out which is what about the Star Trek replicator and food right if the Star Trek replicator is able to exist in our current world and we can create any food and it tastes like whatever and you can have whatever does that devalue the value of that i think those are are two good uh sort of beginning um thought exercises for this very con yeah in regards to the first one um yeah it would i wouldn't go see it if it was a forgery um because if i was going there would probably to be for the historical element of you know seeing Da Vinci himself's works so if it was a forgery then it's like it's nice painting but i kind of came here for that historical you know element um and as for the the value of food stuff i mean obviously the value does in one in one sense it doesn't change and in one sense it's immensely devalued it doesn't change in the sense of like i still need like it's still precious in the sense that i need to eat to live but also it's so easy to get that thing i need it's basically just like oxygen at this point like yeah oxygen is precious but it's everywhere so like it's both precious and not precious at the same time you know yeah it's i don't have an answer for these right like these aren't something it's very much just this is a beginning level thinking about this kind of stuff sure because i would argue personally that knowing that it is a forgery um would change it but we'll never know right we'll never know if that is a forgery i don't think that the effect of if i knew myself personally i'm the only person in the world was like yeah i know that forgery i don't think that would change the effect that the monalisa has had on them i don't think it would yeah but i guess like what rye said it would for him so sure no no 100 i understand i think it would for me too right i just don't have an answer that's a definitive answer for either well so well i don't go ahead yeah no no no go for it you speak less than i do so you go well now if look right it's in my mind now okay um i can't remember yeah i go so i was going to say as a third hypothetical if if we found out the lord of the rings was actually written by a complicated ai in the year 3033 and it was sent back in time and dropped on tokin's desk and he decided decided to own that it was him that wrote it what does that do feel perception of lord the rings and i'd be like i don't think it changes much of anything about how much meaning i get out of the story however it does but change my perception of tokin yes and i think that's that's a super cool concept right there to play around with right a lot of people don't sort of inspect their own thoughts on these uh to the depth that i think you should because this is not a surface level discussion unfortunately well i would say on this one you gotta you gotta go deep on this one yeah this one is really starting to sort of speak to an address pretty fundamental yes questions about uh about humanity you know yeah what is human for all the people that just said that's a ridiculous hypothetical why are you even here yeah i don't think you might not have the mental capacity to engage with really this should be called every frame of hypothetical because we love hypotheticals they're great and they're super helpful and useful for figuring out what you actually believe yeah um if what i was going to do any fact where there was no hypotheticals then i mean i would probably i don't think i could recognize what that is without hypotheticals um what i was going to say is that i think um i i think we really we really value our capacity to be creative as people which i think makes a lot of sense because i think it's it's it's something that you could point to was a very clear thing that seems to distinguish us from basically every other living thing on this planet as our capacity for creativity and so this starts to uh you know this this topic starts to kind of challenge that in ways that are um difficult and so i think that's the reason why it's like yeah you gotta you gotta go deep on this one and sort of start to figure out what you fundamentally believe about the nature of like human expression and everything and this is a discussion that's gone for a thousand years well and this as far as i'm concerned is only the beginning this is gonna this is gonna go on for a long time now because technology is that far along it's been going on for a long time right since the what is it the uh the print machine came out right whoa it's not being written by people like there are there's been concepts about this forever and ever and what is the value of the human soul and how much you know value does an artist actually have back in the 1700s there there's a lot of discussion about this happened for hundreds of years i don't think we're going to come to an answer anytime soon oh i mean i don't i don't expect that everybody's gonna the everybody in the world is going to reach a consensus like yeah we figured out the human condition guys we got it we know that we figured it out in different ways the conversation's been going on i mean pretty much since we first emerged you know yes we should do a thing where we should do a thing where every artist in the world just doesn't post for like a year and see how cooked the entire industry gets since apparently the difference isn't substantial that's a that's a fascinating sort of thought experiment isn't it would be cool as a no news films games i wonder if everybody would be more inclined creatively after that experience of not having it provided you know oh man how many people would come out and become artists right like you'd create a whole new generation of artists that were operating in the i want to see this and it doesn't exist right the same reason why i started creating youtube videos i want to make this thing you'd see all of that it it would create a whole new cottage industry of the same industry again i'm gonna look in john walker moment here someone in chat just said like you should try putting like potential years your life into a project just to have a pretentious neck beard tell you you don't matter it's like i could do you one better than that i've spent like five or six years on my career and i have people telling me i should be killed so i think i can talk about that yeah sure at least you matter enough to be killed yay the video game industry as a whole is so cooked with how brain dead stupid consumers so jesus christ well this doesn't just you know this this could just be true anyway i was about to say not many stupid consumers are jesus christ but then i was like oh yeah like because i was just listening to it and i was like what what i have to perceive a different own so this this is good all this is a guest spot we got uh it's a gundams point of view which fair warning he's not uh i saw some people in chat say apparently he's had conflict with azan gold in the past so don't expect this to be kind is all i'm gonna say i consider substantial and i do not consider the different i adore his uh his little one punch man v2 but thing it's so cute substantial do you guys no right no is he dunking on him if it was me you remember when dunke watched us on efep and pretended to be a falling asleep yes it's the best content is he dunking is he dunking azan gold that's just the the the he's he's staring and he's getting progressively more angry he's uh okay all right you can kind of see it there that pause can you see that i can see it here for just a second though i was like oh he's doing a donkey i forgot about that made with ai i'm completely okay with that because it was fun the evidence it doesn't matter nobody really cares the lead developer has been very positive and like not a great standard things are fine if they're fun probably not yeah that's what i was getting at without without context the line like that is weird like i don't care as long as it's fun it's like oh it's pretty bad it's gonna be a lot of fun it was all right there's a lot of scenarios where that just wouldn't be the case like you'd be enjoying a thing but as soon as you you know i think if everybody were forced to kill the animals they eat in the world that we would have a dramatic decrease of it wouldn't wouldn't be completely there'd be plenty of people who'd be fine with it plenty of people who don't even have an ethical issue with it whatsoever but i think there's so many people that couldn't bring themselves to do it that it would then curb a lot of meat eaters as a result yeah especially if you start doing like friendly or animals like a cow right imagine looking into a cow's eye and then bolting it in the brain that would change a lot of people yeah a lot of people just wouldn't be able to do it and so the it would it would change the amount of meat eaters in general um and that that is like so what is that evidence of it's like i'm not exactly sure but i imagine it's to do with the proximity to the creation of the thing that you're enjoying i guess positive about ai in the past and made an ai game we're gonna wait so is it mole is a vegan that's disappointing you're not vegan i mean that that is disappointing scum but yeah you're not a vegan how can i be this high energy of our a vegan that's a big here come on yeah i art imposter that's an ai artist draw a picture and so that that was like like one of the games we're gonna play this this week yes just generally has been much more positive about some of the benefits of ai rather than what is the normal sentiment amongst artists and and you know i guess general uh twitter population which is that you know ai is bad and it takes jobs well capacity for ai investment we have to make tough choices and so for some teams that means removing layers this is an argument we haven't really covered much yet it might come up more just the the introduction of ai kills other jobs the corporate speak removing layers to simplify execution and drive philosophy you're just you're gonna have bots write your shit it's like okay it's just fire people that's what it means but in less uh in you don't have to pay robots different words but um energizing our future opportunities yeah we've not really gone over that the obvious like the fight in that one is the jobs are always crunched i think morial he was talking about that a bit earlier but that's not really the focus of what we're talking about to simplify execution and drive velocity so tyler of the last few years higher interest rates the efficiency drive that was the cover for laughs or the reason however you want to look at it ai and the sentiment and that was uh that's in Gundam's stuff okay yeah i was he's going out in there in his video right yeah the news from artists artists opinions don't matter it just doesn't matter because what matters is the opinion look at his eyes any of the edits you see are all Gundams okay like they're not mine the people that are buying products like i love these little guys right they're great yeah i'm so happy wojak's off funny i love those songs that wojak's are just like rage comics his second arrival second coming i guess like just because you do it doesn't buy it nobody cares like it's it's not sounds like this this it feels like the person says this must not have never made anything you know no i don't i don't buy that i think that the clip is shit i think the uh this it's obviously clunky as fuck it just made to sound like he thinks that a lot of this don't matter which is obviously not his take i mean if he's made a big old response video that'll be like a more enlightening that'll be a place to look at to see what he thinks when he can present it you know coherently and at length and i haven't heard anything yet right like i'm taking it off him all are here that he does in fact not mean that he's gonna he's going to make his position clear yeah because obviously well because he didn't it's something that destiny has said many others that they don't they don't have like 10 minute conversations with the assumption that they're going to be clipped out with every single 30 seconds that pass yeah yeah i'm sure you could take a lot of the things that i've said in this dream and make me to be either an ai advocate or somebody who despises it either way probably it's not relevant it's like whenever one of these like you know really well respected and and really respectable uh directors talks about how bad marvel is oh come on bro okay get him get him out of here get him out of here the dude who literally looks like a pedophile and lives like one is going to take a shit on martin scorsese not on my watch just to be clear um yeah we we've we've been historically very against it however the the key information as far as i'm considered is i would love to hear more from him because the vagueness of it's not cinema actually i think just hurts the whole conversation well but it's really awkward it wasn't vague it was a whole article that he wrote well you're talking about the many different weird quotes about where he talked about like franchise or whatever in some other words that we would just that i guess that's what i'm saying is it's like the article wasn't like that it was still confusing and bizarre well this is this is again a part of the telephone game it sounds like now that asman gold is poised against scorsese about whether or not marvel is any good it's like no this is we're missing loads of layers of like what's happened in here because like you know the those two don't even they're not fighting at all and then the quotes from scorsese aren't even the things that associate with how everyone thinks marvel's falling apart like i don't even think he would say publicly that the marvels is a terrible film he probably says not cinema though which is probably i don't think it's fair to say scorsese is calling these movies shit i think he's essentially calling them theme park rides i wish he would call them shit i think that's a better argument than saying they're not cinema well they are now but i don't think they're i mean there's some there's a lot of good marvel movies actually i mean but that's kind of the problem is what he just doesn't want all of cinema to devolve into nothing but marvel movies which i can totally understand sure but he said they're not cinema yeah which i which yeah yeah they are not yeah i see what you mean yeah yeah right they're films you know they are just saying that they're not good right for that that would be way more based if he said that they were they were crap they're not even films they're not even movies you can't even see them the artist opinion doesn't matter says the person who's never created art we live in a day to age we're no well no media or films are art yeah but the problem is that we that's the conversation also needs to be evolved as guys making youtube videos right yeah it involves creativity it does well this is where i mean there's just spice everywhere and anger and fury and it's like all right you know there's a lot of stuff here there's someone who spent their entire life living in a cave like a bogland plague warlord warcraft has amassed enough following to where people think he has good ideas well and uh as we're gonna bring this up at one point but it's just like people always reference my shitty looking room whatever they disagree with me it is like yeah well i i guess yeah it even says that's just to be expected that's that's what people do i guess you're playing your fucking room can't you it's it's totally unrelated but it's no it has nothing to do with the room is dirty again it's not common right yes i think so um only if you use that in place of an argument if you do an argument and then call him a nasty bogland who lives in filth oh yeah i mean yeah i mean he knows he knows what he's doing right i mean it's obviously for laughs to the well because Gundam's pretty fucking offended to the argument but no nutrition he's offended by the the sentiment as he believes as when gold means it which it would be curious to hear them talk um be interested to see what happened bro like but i was up late last night so here we are his clarification and i was reading some of the posts about myself you're fucking dragular is in the background it goes away soon though oh obviously and uh some people are fucking pissed oh we've we fucking got partially taken do you remember like the stream gets paused when you play music for just too long yeah like i feel like i've made people more mad today than i have and probably like a month i am yeah yeah we'll be fine one controversy away from a villain arc which by the way is is said as a joke but is actually true with how things just work on the internet if you get in enough controversy in a row you'll just be seen as satan like uh you need to stretch them out one pig you you'll be right yeah every once in a while the artist comment yeah yeah like i didn't even think i was a big deal right i mean i didn't i thought everybody knew that i did i thought everybody knew that what i was saying was true apparently not guys of course nobody likes for people to tell them that they're wrong but this this doesn't fucking matter it's a fucking tweet who cares chill out it everything's fucking fine like i i made a i just a good attitude by the way just uh a lot of people need to better understand and this probably should be taught at this point what uh what it means well even when you have because he's having this reaction when he's got thousands tens of thousands up to millions of people watching him getting like you know roasted and he's like doesn't matter it's fine if more people had that perspective i feel like we'd be better people will be better off stronger as a result because yeah probably yeah like the perception that you know millions of people are just telling you you're worthless can do a lot to your brain it's about how you conceptualize it i suppose i said this on a public platform not his dipshit did cut it a little bit out of context but that's what people do expect me to draw a moral line i have to perceive a difference that i consider substantial and i do not consider the difference substantial i was talking about the difference between procedural generation and uh ai generation like generative ai now i feel like they both functionally do the same thing and i don't see there being a large moral difference between the two things uh the ai generation vicious procedural generation which is interesting to bring up about i don't know the technical difference between them it's a good it's a it's like yeah it's an interesting kind i've never thought about that not once that's a good it's a good thought it's something to just consider because it could all be on a you know a scale well um it's probably something that's worth talking about in terms of it's not like ai art is brand new if you start to think about like so for instance water simulation bagger fall use procedural generation for its world oh well i the example i was thinking about is like simulation in video games and um and and movie right so like if you have water simulation it's not like it that's guided by a computer it's curated and guided and obviously the software was created by a person and it's curated by a person but it's not like a person is individually animating each of those waves or like the reactions to like if a you know a player character oh animators were individually animating frame by frame every bit of sullies uh fur that would have been guided by a computer um and so that's like that's computer generated uh curated by a person driven by software created by a person well this actually reminds me of um it's gonna annoy me chat you'll know who's the guy who made well freaking might know who's the guy who made a stf movie tom's um he made a video semi recently on plagiarism uh it's a really cool video it's called tom's god's guide to plagiarism um he has a scale in here and i i don't know if he has it in a way that's easily readable but it's um it's about the how things it's like 10 slots on the plagiarism scale and he actually sort of implies that they actually turn out to be a circle uh you know you start with the original thing and then you the lowest version of it is the fact that you would have seen or heard of it and then later on in your life you do a thing that's kind of got a piece of it in there maybe and then it moves on to uh you you copy it kind of but you didn't even know where it had come from that you you'd taken a piece out of the thing and then he and he goes on until he gets all the way back around to literally copying the thing and reselling it as your own thing which he said like that kind of loops you back around to the original creation um but the he like draws a line at one point where we at one point crossover from ethical to unethical and it's really hard to exactly explain where and how it happens and i feel the same thing is happening with uh computer assisted like autistic works where exactly is the line yeah and uh that's going to be talked about for a long time i imagine and i also talked about it in the context of people copying so like for example like you saw like the uh the parallels between like the pokemon and the dragon quest and you know pokemon and digimon like i don't view there to be like a large moral difference between an artist using other art as inspiration or to basically create something that's another version of what the original artist made i don't view that as a tremendously morally different thing versus generative ai creating a uh an aggregate of art by using a million pictures yeah so this is another like fundamental position that a lot of people opt for which is that what is the difference between a computer that collects a billion pictures and a person who's seen a billion things in their lives and they both generate an image um and and then there's not to translate right well it's uh it's really complicated i think that it's totally fine for someone to say i'm not sure about this like uh because there's a lot to think about i'd like him to drill down a bit more on here because he throws that word tremendously in there and it's just like okay so you don't think that there's a tremendous difference but is there some difference or are you actually saying there's no difference like what exactly are you saying yeah yeah i don't feel like difference right like it's the difference between whether you're saying there's no difference or there's a great difference that is where we're all gonna end up on the spectrum um well again i think this is another one that starts to drill into some pretty fundamental you know fundamental questions about i guess how you perceive like human consciousness because i i imagine the argument you know the argument one way would be well there's a difference between an ai algorithm that is i like pulling directly from images that exist compared to you look at it goes through your brain and then translates to whatever you're doing on you know piece of paper on a computer emotional state what is my personal history of things what's my my mood and what are the things that has you know influenced me to get here and and i remember the people that i've talked to and the things that they might like and yep it seems like uh i mean not to be like like obviously it's a more human process but um i feel i don't know enough about the technicality of how the the ai does it on like a coding level but i but if it's just an element of these are all of these images therefore the pixels will be here and that's all that goes into it and is like well i feel like we've really lost the soul of what inspiration is but yeah well that's right you're using words like soul right it's yeah definitely um it's a like quagmire of a discussion are you suggesting that rags is appealing to something that can't even be nailed down so we can't even all you're against it is that what you're saying i mean i'm i'm not i'm not using soul in a in a literal sense but uh more like a humanity and human process sort of sense um i i suspect that that's the essence of his position that people don't like is that he doesn't see a difference between a person looking at other people's art getting inspiration and creating something new and an ai algorithm doing the same thing like looking at other people's art and and spitting out something that's like a mix of everything like he just equivocates both of them well no question for rags though if with that lord the rings example then you would have thought lord rings has a lot of soul in it but if it turned out there was zero in the sense that a robot made it would like what does that mean for your um point of view i don't know i guess i'd probably feel pretty deflated uh but i'm not sure like i would value it like i could i would value it a whole lot less but i don't know exactly like knowing that all of the work and stuff just to be clear with the example of uh the example was it was a movie that was made in a different time and then it was time traveled back and given to Tolkien the book yeah oh then i guess then i guess it would shift to my appreciations for and that's all that would change oh sure but the you were saying like you know there's no soul in a lot of work that's created by a robot whatever and it's like well if there's a work that you do believe soul is in and then someone reveals it's like actually that was a robot that made it uh be in this case being a i like you know procedural generation or whatever this this is the thing on the human side of it the idea of there being a spark something divine right that an ai could not possibly replicate and so therefore you cannot just equivocate the ai process of you know amalgamating stuff and spitting out something as opposed to a human doing it you know why i guess that's inspiration right it could be a fundamental disagreement that's kind of like impossible to yeah bridge the gap on depending on what you believe about whether or not there's something like you know someone can argue like i'm holding on to human generation of content because i just believe that is one of the best signifiers for creating worthwhile meaningful art even if a machine could trick me even if a human can create soulless things i don't care i'm just i'm just saying that it's a good thing to hang on to like someone could say that i'd be like i guess i understand i just and i guess also for clarification like if we had advanced like androids that were like decker replicants or because decker was a replicant and or like data from why would you even do that that's gonna be what i have what do you mean i was just talking about data and i was talking about it just for clarification i don't know what you're talking about so what i was taught uh but like those like those really complex like androids that i would consider people you know that would be different from like just just uh just a robot algorithm that just rearranges pixels based off of learning from images right i think you get if it's uh it's not necessarily that it's not non-human but i don't think we're at the you know so are you arguing that it requires some level of i guess sapience in our like personhood i feel because i would say that an a is right if we're talking about like a like a replicant right it is a robot it's a machine that is you know not thinking of things necessarily right a replicant is replicants are people are they i would say i would i mean i specifically used to example of like to cut through i assume right the reason rax chose them was he assumed everyone is on board with considering replicants as people you can choose whatever fiction you want i assume i still have a synthetic example right but what i mean is that what is the difference in that case right between a fake brain that is coming up with it and a robot machine server that's coming up i think that uh i think that a synthetic person would essentially i think that part of what would make them a person would be the ability to have you know memories and experiences and emotional states and things that would probably be something i guess you could create um a a brain-like device where it's a it's like it's an entity that doesn't have emotions or any of these things where it but here's a thing right you remember an x marketer how would you know whether or not they're having those authentic experience oh well i guess you don't need to we can move past the movie but how do you know like let's say you were talking or a robot that was acting a lot like a person how would you ever know if they were having the authentic experience of any of the things that they said to you or if they were presenting that to you to convince you that there were a person yes that's a distinction there or is that a distinction without a difference um i'm not sure how i would know i have to think about it i'd have to maybe learn more about how they were made and how they respond to things and what they do but i'm not sure i just want to know what people are saying like right now reference soba it's like well soma takes the position of um you already agree that the creatures in there are mostly human but we're presented with the reality of knowing they are not human at least not in the sense of the body right like the the opening quote being them the reality is that which when you stop believing in it doesn't go away meaning that you believe you're human and the game is like you're not human though i did like but i am though okay it's interesting right because i've seen some products of like ai generated stuff where i'm just like you know it's amazing it's like oh it's almost like this thing is thinking but then you like skim over the source code and then it's just like oh okay it does basically boil down to a bunch of logic logic switches like if statements and for loops and while loops that are all nested within each other and it's just running through a process but then it's like well can you could you think of the human brain is the same way where it's all just electrical impulses and we're all basically doing the same thing where it's like if this condition is true and that condition is true i'm going to do this thing and that thing right yeah so now you're touching on that point you're gonna trigger the people to have a very much like humans are valuable for what they are they're unique this special or amazing that is the question is a human valuable right because like is it the wet wear people are nice to alexa too right people treat alexa like it's got some sort of emotions and they say please and thank you too um so just be being how we treat these things doesn't matter if it's a computer right and it's not a human being and you're saying that the the spark of creation requires a human beings quote soul right like and i know you didn't mean it in that way but then how can you say that that any robot could ever replicate that even if it was a very very good replication of it right at what point that that's the question right at what point does it become this is something only a human being by the way and that is valuable uh john just perfectly illustrating uh what's probably happened to asma gold because if someone clipped you was just saying is a human valuable that alone so we'd be like so john just hates people i guess all the shit that was just said before because there's even people in champion like what the fuck are humans valuable like if you don't listen to the come on give me something to conclusions i hate humans i'm like a super villain i feel like all that's happening all it's kind of it's like oh fuck how far do we have to like actually start going into like fundamental perceptions about you know what is our nature like what is the nature of our consciousness if you want to get to like a root of questions relating to ai yes um yeah yeah it it you know look right it's uh it's a it's a deep rabbit hole okay it's a yeah you start talking about like solipsism and stuff like that do you actually think solipsism is that how do you say it in your world that i guess that's how i mispronounce it for you you know what i i'm not gonna but anyway continue so um you're a weird ass it's a question of whether or not you know how do you prove other people are conscious how do you believe they're thinking and things like that am i real are you real that kind of stuff yeah you're getting right into the very depths of of you know philosophy how do we know stuff yeah that's the fundamental question of reality i think that's anyway like these are that different and i haven't read an argument that makes me believe that i'm wrong i'm open to reading one but i haven't found it yet original art versus inspirational art i don't care about that because i don't believe original art generally exists i think that almost all art is built off of other art and that doesn't so it's yeah so just let's just get rid of the word or well well i mean but the statement like all art is derivative it's like to some extent there's always going to be inspiration stepping on things that you've seen before and we still all agree that you should not be able to copy one-to-one someone else's thing and use it for your own benefit like that you're like no i can't do that hi hi i just you ever ever kind of for a second yeah i was saying that um we we we all seem to agree that uh you can't copy someone's thing one-for-one and present it to your own so everyone draws a line at least there nobody says like well come on everything's iterative it's like like i don't know about that yeah do you think that if you trace a piece of art and add a hat to it that it is well it's just a point is as someone said like no one's arguing for that it's like that's my point no one's arguing for that which means there is a line and uh i love a pal world which is all the original pokemon which is hats on with hats yes but i mean in terms of the like you know artists are inspired by artists who came before them and before them and so on and so forth there's a level of uh there's a level of you are going to be pulling from things that you've seen before and your own experiences which is you know that's what people would say is like the uniqueness right of any individual person is they're not only the things that they've seen before that they're interested in but paired with their perspective and their experiences and then it's like those combinations together right is what creates the new piece of work take away from it it builds on it it makes it more special it makes it better maybe you should say can better not does make a better i don't know maybe not better but sometimes it adds texture to it all art is derivative yes and i don't think that that's not a bad thing anyway so that's what i was talking about in the clip we'll keep going do you guys no right no and that's really what matters i don't think a lot of people do and the truth is that i don't think that society at large sees a large difference the reason why i don't think that people see a large difference is that i've never seen a large scale consumer shift to where consumers are purchasing something that is more inconvenient or more expensive because of the way that it's produced organic foods or yeah like literally is but yeah the first example i said earlier like organic foods are literally that thing well i'm sorry i will say rags he's going to address organic foods he's obviously been to a supermarket just because he lives like a goblin doesn't mean that goblins don't go to supermarket this person is never no he's a caveman he's this is madness hey we were all came from cavemen they're cool guys they worked real hard derivative of cavemen but uh he's gonna start responding to like people in chat and someone gonna bring up organic foods and it's interesting because a lot of people are presenting counters in chat that azan gold would not agree with he comes up with a different counter now some people do this i'm not arguing that nobody does this but the biggest companies in the world are oftentimes the most immoral ones and i think that there's a reason for that it's because people don't really care where their products come from now to be clear he's not saying that this is ethical he's saying that people don't care right no he's just making observations which is a people generalized statement that can be seen as agreeable if he was to concede sure there are people who still do it's just that generally people don't care and i think you do he does defend it this way and so would we that most people shouldn't have to care because of the amount of pressures they've got in other departments in their lives you know it's not like we're all angels worry about every single bad thing in the world all the time otherwise they couldn't do anything yeah you'd be a you would be incapable of functioning if your empathy for your close friends and family extended to every human on the planet you would just not be able to function well you know the glibs highlight in slavery is like there was a civil war thought about that was there not it's like well wait the proximity argument would come up again which i do think is important to consider that if if you if you went to a store and when you pick up the thing that you want to buy literally just a glass pane between you and the child mining the things needed for it i think people would would probably change their mind a bit uh yeah if you're seeing them being whipped and under yeah yeah yeah i think yeah like nobody really cares about amazon war and so that's why i think it is it is unwise to refer to it as nobody cares it's more complicated but that is that's that's english for you i think workers pissing in bottles you care about it but would you want to pay twice as much for amazon prime to fix it there's a few drama episodes about this that mean for you quite liked in the new season yeah that was one of the uh stronger episodes like i think the ending is amazon engulfs the universe and they say yeah but it's so convenient yeah that's the second way to summarize it no probably not and the same thing's true with phone batteries the same things the same thing is true with uh electronic car batteries the same thing is true with clothes and everybody just forgoes morality to participate in these things and i do not believe this is a you criticize society but yet you exist in society how interesting right that meme i don't stupid meme i think that might be one of my most hated memes in history yeah i love the counter memes for it they way better with the king covered in gold is like yet you participate king homer yeah i don't think take a hike boss and also i think that that's very valid that's an extremely valid thing to say if you want to hold other people to a standard you should expect other people to hold you to that standard that you are trying to hold them to why does everybody else have to carry your flag and so that's that's my point i suppose to an extent though that is normal behavior isn't it that if you have a set of values you would want other people to have them because you think they're the right ones but just like a you know you don't want to go too far but same most people do tend to try and share what they think is the right thing to do we wouldn't have political discussions that we wouldn't have you wouldn't be here well and i'm trying to i'm trying to meet him on his level of like you know people on twitter being like you should carry my flags like you're gonna be annoying but at the same time i think that's that's normal human behavior that's just being like yeah and so i don't think that consumers really care about this in a general sense are there consumers that care about this of course is there a market for them of course is it infinitesimally smaller than the market for consumers that just want to consume the cheapest best thing of course i don't actually know i'd have to check and see infinitesimally smaller is is pretty strong verbiage there twos it was made with ai i'm completely okay with that because it was fun the evidence it doesn't matter nobody really cares about this developer has been very positive about ai in the past and made an ai game we're gonna play this by the way i art imposter that was an ai artist draw a picture yeah so that that was like like one of the games we're going to play this this week yes just generally has been much more positive about some of the benefits of ai rather than yeah basically people accuse the uh the the ceo of the company that made pow world of using ai to make pow world because he liked ai so they basically just made up an accusation and are just running with it and uh i heard recently that the person who originally made the accusation has apologized then what is the normal sentiment amongst artists and and you know i guess general twitter population which is that you know ai is bad and it takes jobs from well ai and the sentiment from artists this artist this is the part that's going to make people mad opinions don't matter it just doesn't matter because matters is the opinion of the people that are buying the product yes like it doesn't like your opinion on it like just because you do it doesn't like nobody cares like it's it's not it's not relevant it's like whenever one of these like you know really well respected and and really respectable uh directors talks about how bad marvel is shut up old man i still find this so funny shut up old man like but um i mean if if you have to imagine though in the world where marvel isn't shat on by tarantino's gosezi fucking copula all the people that might have a who is still around who might have like a significant amount of people who respect them for their work it can't be preferable to have all of them saying your work is shit and you're destroying the industry there's no way there's just no way yeah if i was saying these movies are actually pretty great yo that like that would that would have no impact either or that marvel wouldn't like that when something else the thing about is the is it just as simple as like so let's say ten artists say i hate this thing we shouldn't have it and then as of gold it's like you don't matter compared to the millions of people buying it you go okay a hundred and he's like still no a thousand still no ten thousand okay yeah maybe okay and you'd be like so yeah there is just a fundamental unit's line it's probably just percentage base between the people consuming it and people not consuming it i guess which um i don't know it just it feels it feels a little bit um like i guess we're circling back around to he really was just stating what is reality in a sense because that's just like statistically the more people who care and make things matter the more it matters and you'd be like yeah i guess i have a problem with his statement that nobody has ever chosen the more you know expensive thing on a mass level right like oh yeah sure some people do but but not everybody does and he brings up clothing right um because fast fashion is like the second or third most polluting industry in the world and if you just bought slightly more expensive more ethical clothing then you know a lot of that would go away um but we have seen this actually and i was thinking about it while he was talking we've seen the the disappearance basically almost complete disappearance of the fur trade because we didn't like what they were doing there we've seen almost the complete disappearance of um animal testing for makeup and cosmetics that's almost completely gone now because we didn't like the idea of you know rabbits being horribly mutilated uh in order to find out whether lipstick is and a third one that you know we still this is almost universally reviled at this point is the ivory trade right we don't want elephants to be murdered uh even though we think that ivory is you know very very attractive and it's brought up the the cost of ivory to you know stratospheric prices um so these are examples back in like the what was it eighties in the american it was it's been a long time and yeah the ivory imports have been completely illegal so all the ivory that's in the country is all that there is what's open yes what about like charity just in general that's obviously indicative of people's desire to help that doesn't help themselves necessarily right i suppose you could argue it makes them feel better maybe um but just just taking action to try and make the world or other people a better based on how you feel ethically like that it should happen so if that is instilled in people somewhat fundamentally then surely it would still have some impact on their consumption as well because at least consumption is actually offering you something in return so maybe you'd feel more inclined to do it ethically because at least you're gaining something no matter what as well i just i wonder um we don't want to we don't want to get to the point of like losing faith in humanity you know oh yeah definitely don't want to go there um and also like when it comes to you know that a lot of this has is surrounded by discussion of like ai and stuff within games uh gamers are unfortunately quite retarded so not a great you know is it not a great example i think for the most part a lot of gamers are super normies when it comes to stuff like this games are often seen as very much like recreational disposable slash things you don't really worry about it doesn't have that kind of place in people's minds as a lot of other things do games aren't a serious thing you know yeah there there's still a lot of people forget that outside of mobile games the average gamer will buy two to three games a year right which if you are a quote gamer you would probably think that that's ridiculous but the the large majority of people are people who have a switch or they have a playstation and they buy the newest you know soccer or or football game and that's it shut up if people have a problem with like ai and algorithms and video games you need to decide where the line is drawn because algorithms are used for a lot of things including something as simple as inventory management you know sorting items in like your box or your bag or whatever by alphabet or whatever that's all determined by that scale thing i was talking about again and i do actually think that is what's happening all of these conversations everyone's having is about everyone's establishing lines and then everyone is pushing or pulling everyone else's lines including their own yeah i like watching the thorn movie it was cool you know what's funny if they revealed thorn of a thunder was done exclusively with ai we'd all be like oh yeah that's not explained that explains it so people really didn't like that clip and i want to say really quickly that i stand behind what i said 100 percent and i'm right and the emotional outbursts of man children on twitter over the next day or two will subside right we talked about this if he calls you a man child you have to say well look at your room dude well then at that point you're saying that everyone's a man child we're still gonna we're gonna live in everyone's a man child no one is it will prevail reason will wiggle its way in and people will see the truth of what i said and the best thing about it is that i can prove it and that's that that's that's the good thing about the truth is that i don't have to that's the good thing about the truth it's like yeah i guess so it's uh you'd hope you can prove it yeah sure the truth is pretty neat free and all that yes to uh bully people off like i can read arguments from people that disagree with me and i can prove them wrong these people can't prove me wrong they can post a picture of my room and say my room is dirty and so i'm sure you can do that but i'm still right yeah i almost want to say like uh him his room being dirty has nothing to do with these arguments still man you don't want a room like that don't have a room like that yeah right grow up fucking hell it's really disgusting well i don't know what what the problem like because you think it's not just a matter of aesthetic it's just like it's bad for you like you know clean your room right that's like a that's a meme yeah i mean jordan peterson says you gotta you know you gotta clean your room a clean room is a clean mind or something that's probably a quote i i don't i don't know he might have said that at some point yet but yeah you can say i'm a loser you can say i'm ugly you can say i fell off you can say anything no you look fine you look fine what thing that you want but that doesn't change the truth and that's the best thing about it is that it doesn't matter how mad you get it still doesn't matter it still doesn't change anything your opinion on it like just because you do it doesn't buy it nobody cares that's right and i want to extrapolate this so almost all art has relatively no intrinsic value relatively no intrinsic value is a bizarre yeah i need a definition on every single word in that relatively no intrinsic value uh yeah that uh why intrinsic nothing has intrinsic value question mark what is intrinsic value this should be like every single word exactly i don't know what to do with that there's too much that needs to be defined but i presume he's about to explain what he means by this right sweet like if you're at a um uh if if you are stranded on an island would you rather have a cooler full of food or would you rather have a uh uh would you rather have the Mona Lisa so that does not help the initial statement doesn't help at all because there's no intrinsic value to survival so i don't even know why like if you close it's uh it's it's kind of interesting to think that you know good old maslow's hierarchy of needs right if you're at a position where you live in a house and you have food and you have water and you have all of your basic needs met at some point you might get to the place where yeah in a general day-to-day basis you are more invested in the art that you are that you watch or play or read then you are in any given meal that you eat that day well i have my my tap and i'm like do you want a bottle of water or do you want you know fucking the next mario game i'm like well mario i cover my tap over there and then on the desert island they're like you could have mario or you could have a bottle of water but yeah i mean yeah exactly because you were on a desert and a deserted island and it's like you don't have all of your basic needs met like you know food water uh shelter and yeah of course you want you want the water but once those needs start getting met and then it all starts to change how much it matters to you in terms of how much it occupies your mind how much you'd be willing to pay for it you know yeah then fundamental nostalgic value or personal value you know like my grandmother's watch i care about it a hell of a lot more than fringy does and i might even value it more than a bottle of water on that desert but he'd be like fuck that watch we need the bottle and i'm like maybe i don't know but yeah these are things that he's gonna he's gonna talk about a bit as well it's just that these are not fantastic opening statements i think he's figuring it out as he goes along and i think that that's what makes art special is the fact that it has value but the value is not intrinsic i don't you can't you can say the word again he must mean practical value or values yeah but that's not intrinsic but like yeah then again how much do you want to delve into how much art is like fundamental to our conceptions of existence or keeping a civilization sane yeah intrinsic is like inherent right it's part of the essence of something that you're describing yeah the way i'm interpreting what he's saying is that it's the value it has even if all humans are gone which at that point it's like well then it has no value because humans are like wait uh but in the same way that the food would have no value to humans in terms of sustaining us because we didn't exist either you know yeah yeah yeah yeah you don't like this you have to say what you mean when you say intrinsic and if that's why it applied it was being applied in that way then it's like well this is not very helpful because then everything has no intrinsic value i think he's about to compare it to a hammer and at that point it's like so he is he means like there's a practical thing we can a hammer can do things and make things happen but that a painting is just to be appreciated like mentally or something like this um okay well i guess let's hear let's say it first like a hammer has value you can use a hammer to accomplish a goal a uh you know a nail has value you can use a nail to hold something in place and so in general and and this isn't true all the time okay i'm not intrinsic value a hammer has intrinsic value is that what he's saying well so this is the problem like well what what if you don't need to hold anything i think we need to throw away and even if you yeah intrinsic is messing everything up i don't i don't think that's hoping i don't mean of course my response would be yeah well what good is a hammer if i'm floating in the middle of space for instance you know i'm floating in space but thank god i have this hammer exactly because it has intrinsic value well you know the funny thing is if you're flowing through space and you have no reason to believe you'll ever be found now you're done it's that's it it's got your book well you got the oxygen that well i was gonna go further it's like you'd rather probably have if god said i could send you a bottle of water a hammer or someone's painting you're like well the bottle of water you can't even drink it let's say is an empty no you know what i mean like he said hammer or nail or someone's painting you might be like i might just go with the paintings that might be more interesting i'm not sure well yeah because we want to talk about practical value if we want to talk about practical value of like it serves a goal an easy one to point to was and i played mario because i was feeling sad and i wanted to be happy so i played mario and that achieved the goal of making me happy yeah like there's there's no downplaying like the importance of achieving psychological goals with uh the things that you you interact with in use just as much as a more apparent practical goal of a hammer nailing in a nail to make you know a cupboard or something well so you're you're stranded on that island and you're thinking maybe i'm you know i'm gonna kill myself that's it i'm not gonna be saved but then you have mario there it's like you know what i'll play a bit of mario and then that that keeps you alive just long enough that a ship comes by the next day and it's like very yes let's go get him but you leave the menu screen on long enough and he just turns and looks at the you and goes never give up and you're like oh mario thank you so much for playing my game you're on you're on it you're last alive and uh yeah so just superchats saying he's conflating value with utility they mean different things so not only is that an issue one can with sort of extrapolation say that utility can you know how much utility is there and having a painting versus a hammer it's like well it depends yeah if it's a really good painting that could have like some massive utility compared to i don't feel like building anything you know yeah i got my hammer but i don't have anything i want to do with it so but i'm making a general statement that's not always true okay so just please please please hold hold your exceptions no we will allow you to continue but we will also highlight exceptions please please i know i know you have an exception that you want to put out there and try to pretend like you're smart i know i know you have an exception i do too but i'm talking about in the general sense okay art does not have a general sense of and that's that's not true it absolutely has a functional value if i'm trying to be as generous as possible what is the category we would have for you can't eat it well architecture has a functional value right if we want to go for a really basic example because yeah help help me out here right architecture it's it's like engineering but also with an emphasis on aesthetics right yes it is aesthetics that you make while you are also keeping in mind that it needs to that either serve some sort of a purpose and that it has to be practical because engineers and architects work together to make sure that the building actually you know serve some function either fulfilling aesthetic desire or also making sure that it is you know fulfills the you know necessity of being what a house is you know i gotta live here it's gotta have the space that's it does gotta be good shelter can't leak things of that nature and also how do we make it look good and feel good well you're like propaganda you know art with like art with a serious function that has like a very to the point where it's designed to help win wars or start yeah like um or like the gi joe you know like the the public service announcements you know like that's with a purpose with a purpose of like and and the thing is is that these are the examples that you would point to if you were going for the most plain and obvious nature of functionality but i mean the functionality of art that like teaches you some kind of lesson that is meaningful to you and makes you happy there's functionality there yeah yeah when sonic tells you don't let your uncle touch you in the no no place so that that's a very valuable thing for kids to know and it's important that sonic tells me that well what kind of art are they talking about right like the actual medium of the art because would you consider what you know efab is to be art or would you say what is painted right well i'm about just that as as and if we want to tie it back to you know economic functionality well the stuff you own has economic value it has a price that you can then sell it or exchange it to get money that you need for other things so in many dimensions of course art like has very clear functionality if it keeps you happy that is like yeah your mood is not happy that is a thing that has no value and when i was in search and rescue they said the first rule is that you have all of these needs all these things you have to do in survival and one of them is pma positive mental attitude gotta have a positive mental attitude and that's like a survival thing that they teach you how to stay alive gotta stay the idea that if you have a positive attitude that that can just fundamentally improve your chances of uh survival if you're depressed and want to die your survival chances don't look good that's a great point yeah if everything's about function like if if people are going to perform functions they need to be in a state of mind to not only do it but do it well i do you know how much do you want to boil how much do you want to boil down the decisions that everybody makes all the time down to the most clinical the what people would view as the most clinical um decision like brushing your teeth for instance versus um playing video games or watching a movie or going for a bike ride or hiking or going dancing like all of these things are ultimately in service of your mood it's like in in one way or another game only talking about this the ones and zeros instead of the aesthetic of the design of the things in the game and the characters and what they say and the themes of the game that would be like the difference mm-hmm a Picasso painting is not going to do anything you're gonna make me rich well we can this i'm actually going back to a fucking Blackadder episode where they want him to paint a picture that's going to do some achieve something in particular with the men like for morale or for whatever else convince it i was just like there's so many functions that art can serve uh that are even beyond just the sense of it can make you feel good it's like i'm not even just talking about that i'm talking about things that have a grand fucking repercussions based on an artwork we you know there's artworks can get you killed if you make them so it's it's it's weird to say that like the this is a weird thing to say is all about but black gatter goes forth like a war painting or yeah yeah yeah well have value to some people and that value is subjective and the fact that the value is subjective proves my point sometimes yes even the strictly practical things a hammer is probably going to have more value to a carpenter than it is to somebody who doesn't intend to build anything ever in their life and would rather be talking about practicality than it is not subjective that broccoli is good that it objectively broccoli is good for you if we're if we're operating on a on the practicality scale right that's not you can have value that isn't purely subjective like you can think it's good for you and it also can be necessary for your survival you know food nutrients these things are not subjective and i can give you another example of people that are making art that nobody cares about now you can scroll but that doesn't mean it doesn't have value that means nobody cares about it yeah it means less people consider it valuable down on this tweet and most of the people that are being very angry are people that are making art that nobody cares about how does he piss people off i don't know i couldn't imagine yeah right or you can go over to twitch and you can go down to uh let's go down to uh i don't know world of warcraft and let's scroll all the way down and you're gonna find people that have one two zero viewers and they're streaming the same as everybody else's but nobody cares about them and it doesn't really matter that they're streaming wow doesn't really matter to who this is what i mean yeah if yeah this is what i mean but the controversial versus non-controversial statements it's all about the packaging and i feel like he's starting to do this kind of on purpose because if the non-controversial thing is these guys don't have viewers which means people aren't viewing them like well yeah no one cares about that statement but if you say they're not doing anything of value you feel like whoa because i mean again the example what if there's a guy who's just got a sketchbook and he's drawing images is like i'm not intending to show this to anybody i'm just doing it for me because it makes me feel good it's like well that's pretty fucking worthless isn't it it's like what all right let's just chill out okay well and i feel like this explains why he's gonna piss people off is like why are you saying it like this um i assume people in chat can relate to this but have you ever come across a channel where they have basically like 10 views maybe a hundred and you watch them you're like this guy's gonna be huge and it's because you recognize like what they're making is gonna be really fucking valued by a lot of people because well it is valued by you in that instance it's valued by the guy who's creating it already in that instance you believe that the artwork has gone beyond any sense of like does it serve a particular purpose as opposed to you you recognize the quality of it in and of itself and so it you know you you expect it to explode in and of itself sort of thing this this is confusing to like it's like all these streamers who i feel kind of bad look at a streaming graveyards they're just like so many people trying to fucking make this work you uh and who knows maybe one or fewer of them there are they're gonna be huge one day i guess it's interesting right because i mean everybody starts from zero you know yeah maybe one of these guys gonna make it big eventually and if and if they listen to the lesson o