Again, it is the touch line here on Y244, at Y244 channel is where you can find us on social media and tell us everything that you need in the world of sports. We have been discussing major things in the world of sport and now we take our focus solely to the game of rugby considering that Kenya is in Canada to play the Vancouver seventh after also last week they played in the Los Angeles seventh for the first time. I'm Robert Osoro, as you should have got Fredo Penda here in the studio with me and joining me here on the centre is none other than Samuel Wanjuguna. Sam, how are you my friend? I'm fine. How are you doing? Great. Your highlight of the week in the world of sport was? I think the fact that some teams have shown a lot of improvement whereas others like Tottenham What's First need a long way to go. Have a long journey. Have a long journey, is it true? Where is it? You know, you said earlier that you're a Bannerini these guys are not even close to that. I think it's because they've had a few injuries but that's not an excuse actually. It shouldn't be an excuse. That's not an excuse. They have a proper team, they have proper players who can grind out and resolve. But then again, Team Cruel is really good. And that game again showed us how good he is. He saved penalties from Martial, he saved from Rashford and now he's saved from... He's known as a penalty stopper, come with me. He's good, he's good. He's a good goalkeeper actually. Again, people have been criticising Norwich City but again, their quality has shown. It's the team at the bottom of the table but they're playing football as if it's a team at the top. Top of the top. And that's amazing to watch. Well, that was his highlight of the week there. We have all deduced that it was Tottenham losing to Norwich in that effect of penalty shoot-off. But now it is all about the Rugby 7s, Kenya 7s are in number 11 as they head on to the Vancouver 7s starting tonight where they will be playing Spain, Ireland and the All Blacks. Tell me, if this is not the time that we can go direct to the main cup quarters. I mean, there's been a lot of hope and expectation with this team this season. Yes. But again, sometimes the results have not been what we expect. If you look at the Los Angeles series, there's a game we didn't even have one try. So there are a lot of questions around it but I think Ireland and Spain are winnable games. All Blacks, there is where questions are. Can we go toe-to-toe with them? They've been good. Even this season they're playing very well. South Africa did some demolition last weekend on us. So I think for me, Ireland and Spain are much that we should win and that gives us an opportunity to get in the main cup. The problem is, our results, as Mona Jiguna is saying, have been one thing and going against the likes of New Zealand, going against Ireland and Spain, I think the Spain, fine, the Spain and Ireland games are winnable but are we going to do it? The team really needs that motivation and the determination that you know what? We've not been good recently but we can still get results and that motivation should take them into the fixtures and maybe we can get some points. We lost to South Africa some more and the Los Angeles likes that we played but they really played well against Ireland, Wales and Scotland. Yeah, and that's why we're saying maybe if they go with the determination they need, the Ireland and Spain fixtures are winnable. But remember, we lost against some more. We lost against South Africa. These are big names in rugby. So I think for Ireland and Spain, we can win against those teams but the problem comes against New Zealand which will be our opening match. And I think that one, we need to put in more effort and maybe wait for our chances as you... I think the fact that if you look at the team right now is a bit more settled the fact that they have a sponsor now. There's no questions about funds and resources and everything else. So I think that should transpire into the pitch and we should be able to see results. And we haven't been able to replicate the Singapore series where we were able to win the title. So I think we can be able to do it but more of the introduction of the young guys that are coming in on the likes of the experience of the day and the like should be able to pass us through Ireland and Spain. And at least we should challenge New Zealand. It shouldn't be that humiliating result. Yeah, we should go ahead and win this. On the last time we went for Vancouver Sevens, we actually finished the last but this time around seems that the pool and the seating of the game seems to like to be on our side. Big names there, Ireland. But when we were going against the team like Spain and then Ireland, who actually we've met in the Los Angeles leg there, we have won against the Blues books once and that was in 2017, 2018 where we lost to Fiji in the final. What do we need to do to go head on against the whole Blacks? I think if you look at our game and how we play, ours is mainly about strength and pace, all right? And now if you go to New Zealand, for them they have tactics that work for them. They have big bodies, yes, but they also have pacey players and they can shift different formations and tactics in the game. We lack that and we have to admit that. And again, this season they have been introduction of new faces into the team and new blood and we hope that these new guys can be able to adapt into the league and be able to challenge. But even all that withstanding, I think for us we need to have a certain kind of way to penetrate New Zealand because New Zealand depend so much on their back line. Yes. If we can find a way of getting the balls in behind and using the pace we have, then we have a chance of beating them. And that's why I think what the team really needs to do is just to wait for their chance, dig deep, and try to maybe get good spaces and using the pace that we have, I think from the youngsters, we can give them a surprise. We're going to give them a surprise. Yeah, we can give them a surprise. This is the same of the experience of the likes of Amondale. Exactly, yeah. To be able to be seen here because it's about game management. We don't have to score 25 tries in the game. We can score 10 or 15 and win the game. Oh, 14 and win the game, yeah. Well, big one there for Kenya. They start actually in Pulsí where they'll be playing Spain, Ireland. Kenya's first match will be tomorrow morning at 12.53 a.m. And then the first match against the All Blacks will be today at seven minutes to 10. That's 9.53 Kenyan time. Kenya will be playing New Zealand. Then the second game against Ireland will be at 12.53 a.m. And then at 4 a.m. tomorrow morning, we play Spain. And that's how our Pulsí is. Some of the other Pulsí consists of Australia, the USA, Samoa, and Scotland. And we'll be seeing the US and Samoa try to match later. But it is a tough pool when you look at that pool actually. Australia, USA, and Samoa. It's very hard to predict who is going to lose, who is going to win. That's a group of them. Actually, if you look at those teams... Oh, my God. Some of Scotland that you can say. But still, they are Samoans. They are Samoans. Scotland, tough too. Yeah, these are, as you are saying, a group of dead. Because if you look at the way Australia is performing, the US, you know them, the Samoans, Scotland. I think this is where we are going to see some of... The Scotland we are seeing, whereby you score 10 and you win again. You win again. It's going to be very tough. The games where you feel the game is just being played from end to end. There's no really tries being scored, because the teams are rigid in behind, and they know how to control the game, and they understand the game. The same question we are asking about Kenya. If you see the best teams, they have some technical ability in them. It's not just having the good player. But this player knows when to use space, when to use strength, when they can conserve some energy in the game, and those are the things that win this. That one was in last week on the finals, because it was four in the morning. It was there with my boys watching the game. 19-5. 100% of Fiji is winning this one. There's no way Fiji is not going to win this final. Then all of a sudden, South Africa pulls one of the biggest surprises in the HSBC World Final series. Again, it's that technical ability. I will keep insisting. A team must know when to really be up front, when to conserve your energy. This is a game that has to be very tactical, and it is minute details. For instance, let me give the worst example of a game. If you look at Jage and Klopp and the performance of his team, go to Nuno Espirito and the performance of his team. You have to sit down to diet. That's something that we may see as very small. These teams have mastered the ways of finding a way to win even in the last minute. I feel like South Africa right now is a team to beat. As Kenyans being mentioned alongside South Africa and African continent, we should be feeling privileged. I think the Kenyan rugby standard is not bad at all. We know that sometimes we are in a deep state. We are ever talking about negative. Rugby is really good. Yes, I think rugby is really good. It's only the tactics. No one to use your pace, nowhere to use your energy and all that. And then maybe if we've beaten South Africa before. You see, they beat Fiji. The current Kenyan coach, Paul Finney, was the 2005 World Cup winner in Fiji. And now he's here and he's making team. We also got the Olympics coming up. He has got a very large pool of players that he has to select from. And all the way, this is how he's doing. This is the best he's doing. And that's how in Pool B, we have got the reigning Olympic champions Fiji playing against France, Canada and Wales. Wales actually occupied the relegation spot. Thank you for them that they might leave. That's the worst prayer they would be hoping to be in that group. Fiji and you have also Wales in there. You have France in there who are also very good. For me, I think Wales, I don't see them surviving this season, if the draws don't keep favouring them. But they really have to dig deep if they have to survive this HSBC season this year. I don't think they'll be able to get anything from this group. Because if you want to get something from Canada, Yeah, maybe from Canada. But if you look at Fiji and look at France, I don't think they have the capacity to go against them. Maybe they can get something. Canada is playing at home. That's the problem now. If Canada is playing at home, then Wales have reigned for a very, very big, tough leg in here. And they might be going down, as we are saying. Pool A has the defending team that is South Africa, England, Argentina and then Japan who are the invitational team into the tournament. So far we have got the All Blacks leading the series with four points so far, having won the captain and the Hamilton legs and they are followed closely by South Africa who won the Dubai and the Los Angeles legs so far. But before we finish off in everything that is going on, back here at home we have got the Enterprise Cup quarterfinals kicking off today. Cabral Sugar will start the defending of their titles that they won last time at the RFUA, again as Muamba at the ball ring, Kaka-Mega. And then Homeboys play home to Nondescript at Jamuri Park, Impala Saracens play home to Nakuru at the Impala Sports Club and then KCB finish off with Black Blood at the den in Rua Raka. Do you think Cabras will defend their title, Fred? I think this season they look stronger as compared to last season and I think for them playing in Kaka-Mega will give them a little bit more motivation and that injection, energy injection in the team and I think they should be able to carry the day against Muamba and maybe now after they have qualified from this then we can talk because we have KCB in there also. Yeah, that's what I was going to point out. The biggest threat is KCB. Exactly. And maybe Homeboys. Actually they went and beat Cabras last time out in their draft. KCB won actually at the ball ring. Exactly. Then Cabras won against KCB at the RFUA for the Enterprise Cup but KCB went to the main trophy that is the Kenya Cup. So those are the matches that were for you in rugby so far because of the Vancouver 7 and if you never got a chance to enjoy the Los Angeles leg because it was usually during the night enjoy all the trials that Kenya scored at the Los Angeles leg as they played against South Africa, some more Ireland, Wales and Scotland.


Alright guys, welcome back to the channel. I'm out here today with the Powerwell dudes. We're gonna do some skateboarding We're in Long Beach right now guys where the beaches are long and it's always sunny We're just heading to another spot. Not too sure what this spot is. I think it's a street spot Always wanted to know where this edge spot is and now I know Kind of crazy there because I keep thinking I'm gonna hit my head above the ledge. It's it's kind of round All right guys that pretty much wraps it up for this video Shouts out if you've made it this far Big big thank you to Deville team manager for power for inviting me out to come and skate Definitely keen to go skate with those guys a lot more. I'm sorry. There's no footage of me skating in this video I just couldn't get comfortable with that ledge because every time I jumped on I felt like I was gonna hit my head Right above kind of freaked me out a bit So I just concentrated on filming the rest of the dudes got some sick footage If you're new to my channel, make sure you subscribe leave a thumbs up drop me a comment below Make sure you follow me on Instagram at enuckism. Anyway guys. Cheers for watching. Hopefully see all you guys in the next video


Great, okay. It's my great pleasure to introduce Marco who's going to talk to us today a little bit about statistics should be no surprise Marco is a Data science consultant and one of the main organizers and of pi data and I believe he's chairing pi data London this year It's happening in about months time It's fantastic conference. So if you haven't got your ticket yet, you should definitely consider that It's not too far away now. So with all of that, we'll get started over to you. Okay. Thank you. Thank you So, yes, thanks for joining me today. I just want to tell you there are three types of lies There are lies that are big lies and there are statistics So as a starting point you can consider the following statement in the Vatican City. There are 5.88 popes per square mile And the number is correct, you know, I'm not lying I don't know much about the Vatican City per se, but I kind of feel that something funny is going on here And that's the idea for the talk. Essentially, we are exposed to the use of statistics in different ways in everyday life And statistics can be used to lie to us. So that's the topic of the talk We're not gonna talk about Python even though we can do statistics in Python and advance statistical modeling But that's not the point. And the idea is that you as the audience simply want to be kind of a better citizen You have an interest in statistics. You don't have to have any advanced Kind of degree in a PhD in statistics or in math. So that's the idea for today I'm going to start with correlation So as a simple definition Correlation if I give you a bit of an informal view first, it's already in the name a couple of things that are happening together So two things that are connected somehow a bit more formally correlation also gives you some sort of strength between Strength of the association between two variables It's easier to think about linear correlation when you're first getting into it so in linear correlation the idea is that One variable is going up the other variable is going up as well and they kind of follow a line That would be a positive correlation or if a variable is going up the other goes down again linearly For example to give you something a bit more concrete When the temperature goes up we say the more ice cream makes sense nicer weather more people are eating ice cream now You can see between ice cream and the temperature that there is a connection intuitively makes sense But in the when you look at the bigger picture at all other possible examples of correlation you don't always Have a causation you don't always have a cause and effect Connection between two variables. So the phrase here you will find it always refer to Correlation does not imply causation For example talking again about ice cream The more ice cream we sell the more people are dying drowning. So What is going on here is ice cream really a serial killer There's something called the lurking variable a lurking variable is a variable that is sort of looking at us but we don't see it and in the case of our Ice cream says example variable the lurking variable again is temperature. So if the temperature goes up more people Go swimming and therefore more people Potentially can die drowning at the same time also more Ice creams are being sold So lurking variables is something that is there, but we all often don't notice it We forget about it or we just ignore it one more example of lurking variable When there is a fire incident the more firefighters you deploy The bigger the damages. So you might say well, let's deploy less firefighters. So we keep the dumb stuff The lurking variable in this case is the severity of the incident So when there is a big issue more firefighters are deployed, but then, you know, maybe Politicians when they do cuts to public services, they kind of look at the wrong variables So when it comes to correlation and the notion of a cause and effect It's complicated. It could be that one is causing the other the other way around Maybe there is a third variable involved the A and B together cause C or C is the cause of A and B or maybe there is a transitive Dependency or maybe there is no dependency at all. So A and B simply correlate, but there is no connection And just by looking at correlation, you know, you can't really say if you have causation or not Just to give you a few more examples number of movies where you see Nicholas Cage as an actor and number of people Dying in a pool falling into a pool So those two variables correlate. So Nicholas Cage may be bringing bad luck Next the consumption of margarine also connected to violence or murders by blunt object margarine makes you kind of aggressive Now is it to blame Facebook for everything nowadays, but you know, if you look at the numbers more Facebook users Bigger problems for Greece. So the national depth of Greece Correlates with the number of users in Facebook Internet Explorer and again violent crime There's a nice correlation here and Finally one of my favorite if you go if you look at the chocolate consumption per country and the number of novel prices per country There's a nice linear correlation So more chocolate means more novel prices You see kind of Switzerland off the chart over there and you notice a couple of nice outliers, so the Sweden having more Nobel prizes than expected who knows why and Germany for once the Germans not very efficient. They consume more chocolate than they should Compared to the number of Nobel Prizes So there was a correlation next I want to tell you what happens when you start the slicing and dicing your Data set and what could happen is something called the Simpsons paradox, which is a phenomenon firstly observed by someone Whose name is not Simpson? So Simpson paradox as a textbook example I give you some numbers about the graduate school admissions in the 70s from Berkeley You look at the total numbers and you look at the percentage of admissions and essentially is fair to ask whether there is some kind of Gender bias so that the proportion of men is much higher compared to the proportion of women So it's fair to ask the question then when you start the slicing and dicing your data you break down per department for example And you see a different story looking at the proportion of Admissions on the women column Notice how for many many departments this proportion is much higher compared to the men's column The thing is when you look at the absolute numbers of application You see how men apply in big numbers for some departments and in those departments They have a lower proportion of admissions on the other side Women apply in low numbers when they have a high proportion of admission so There are a few interpretations here Maybe we men apply in big numbers for departments that are more challenging or the other way around men apply in big numbers for Departments that are kind of easier to get in Essentially, what is the problem here the problem is that if you have any kind of agenda you can show one part of the of the story or the other and All these numbers are correct. They're just telling you a different story So that was a Simpson paradox something else I want to mention is a sampling bias So what is sampling first sampling is something we have to do nowadays in the age of big data The idea is that we want to select a subset of data points of individuals from a bigger population with the idea of Making some estimate about the broader population And we want of course a subset of individuals that is representative of the whole population What is bias on the other side bias when we use bias in everyday language There's a bit of a negative connotation because we associate bias with prejudice Maybe there is some cultural influence going on but you know in science in statistics in particular we talk about bias In a neutral fashion. It's just a systematic error. So when you put together sampling bias We're talking about some kind of error that happened during Sampling so you didn't sample correctly. You don't have a representative subset of the population as a classic example a Big headline back in the 40s Dewey defeats Truman. So that's Truman president Truman the day He was elected president and he's waving a newspaper with the which is stating the opposite story So what happened here the newspaper from Chicago basically had to go Off for the printer before they had the real numbers and they simply trust is some kind of a phone Survey that happened in the previous few days But keep in mind this is 1948 So not everybody had a phone at home and when you look at who can afford a phone is a specific subset of the population So the people who picked up the phone to answer the phone survey. They were definitely not representative of the population in general. They were you know kind of Upper class if you prefer rich people at the time and essentially the survey was giving the completely wrong picture and that's what happens when You don't sample with a you don't get a representative subset when you're sampling correctly a Particular case of sampling bias is also survivorship bias survivorship bias is what happens when you focus on the lottery winner and you forget about all the people who bought a lottery ticket without Winning the lottery. So if you remember from the keynote this morning when Lucas mentioned If I could do it, then you can do it as well. That's a classic kind of survivorship bias, so He went through explaining what happened and he was very honest saying well when you are successful always is by chance And a couple of things could happen and things can go in every sort of direction But often when you read the stories about you know, what do successful people have in common? That's you know textbook survivorship bias and if you look at successful people if we Well, if you if you consider being a billionaire a variable that determines your success all these successful people's Let's say Bill Gates his jobs Zockerberg and so on are all college dropouts So should you stop? Your study should you quit? College first thing about survivorship bias is that it works in both directions So I didn't drop out of college and they didn't become a billionaire. So that's survivorship bias Next topic data visualization Why is data visualization important? Maybe you you heard already the phrase a picture is worth a thousand words Essentially the idea is that you can use pictures to better convey Insights on your data and often data visualization as a discipline will give you insights that you don't have just by doing some Analysation your data often We talk about summary statistics when we look at new data here We have a common example with four different data sets and they all have the same summary statistics so if you pull the average value for x and y if you look at the Standard deviation if you look at the linear correlation if you look a few summary statistics They are all the same But then in the moment you plot the data you will see a very different story So that's why data visualization is important. You get insights that you wouldn't have otherwise And you can use data visualization for storytelling to convey kind of complex Topics in a simplified fashion for example here There is a picture about how different parties Kind of agree with some sort of core decision and the picture is showing how the Democrats is based in the US How the Democrats have a much much higher proportion of agreement and that's fine But for some reason the y-axis starts from 50 rather than starting from zero So if you visualize the correct chart the story is very different. Yes, the Democrats have a Tiny higher proportion compared to the other columns, but they're kind of in the same ballpark So depending on how you want to convey the message you can simply cheat and cut the y-axis Again from the US an example that is related to Gun violence of course big topic in the US in 2005 in Florida They introduce a low called the stand your ground low and they show that how as soon as the law is introduced There's kind of a drop in the chart of gandets Again look at the y-axis it goes from 1,000 and it goes up to zero so If you fix it on the right hand side is the fixed version reality is literally upside down another example this one is from the Italian Public TV service the equivalent of the BBC if you want they have run a Survey the data asking is the government friends with the lobby of course being friends with the lobby is bad So if you don't like the answer 44 percent becomes a tiny tiny slice Luckily I don't pay TV license anymore anything So yeah when I was living there I was thinking well we are kind of world champion at this until I move to the UK So this is from a few elections ago a few leaflets From a variety of parties. There is no bigger at the bus with the fake numbers on it But look at the numbers these from the Conservatives they're telling a story about how you shouldn't vote for the others blah blah blah according to the graphic designer of the Tourist 42 percent is much smaller than 32 percent. So that's one way of looking at it The next one is from the Lib Dems. They are kind of close seconds They are you know, it's one of those messages Yes, go out and vote because we are close second and we need your vote to catch up but then when you look at the real chart that was there second but not very close and for completeness one more this one is from the Labour Party and In the UK there's always this story about this race between two horses because first pass first pass the post System and they say, you know, don't waste your vote on the third little guy. You have to vote for us So it is a race of two horses Although they literally forgot the second horse. There was the Green Party in in this particular constituency, so yeah, I tried to make it across different parties to either to upset everybody or to make everybody Next I want to talk about significance statistical significance. So slightly more technical topic the issue with statistical significance is one of the most unfortunate terms in statistics because in everyday life When we talk about something as a significant event, we also consider it important In statistics, we don't really have this idea of something significant being important as well So when we look at statistically significant results Essentially, we are simply a little bit more sure that the results are reliable that they are not by chance It doesn't mean that the results are important It doesn't mean that the results are big doesn't mean that the results are even useful for any kind of Decision process simply we are a little bit more sure that they are not really random But then of course when scientists report statistically significant results Then a journalist can take the word significant and make a different story Connected to the notion of statistical significance. We have this concept of p-values It's one of those concepts that you know when I was a student I couldn't figure out the meaning of p-values and now many years later I wish I could tell you that I fully understand p-values, but I don't so I was trying to look it up And there is even a big Wikipedia page of what the p-values are not So if you don't understand p-values, you're not alone So let's try to to figure out what p-values are essentially it's about probabilities Probabilities of observing our results when the null hypothesis is true. We're talking about probability not certainty and more importantly Typically in publications in publications You will see a p-value set that to some kind of arbitrary Tresher that often is 0.05 some fields are a little bit more strict others are a little bit more relaxed essentially, it's a probability about Being a little bit more sure that we what we see is not random as it doesn't tell us anything else Related to the notion of p-values. We have a practice called data dredging That's dredging When we talk about data dredging Also called the p-hacking or or data fishing essentially we We are looking for Significance before testing before having any hypothesis the convention should be we formulate some hypothesis We collect data and we prove or disprove the hypothesis Often people try to simply brute-force the data that they have and they look for something that is statistically Significant and they come up with an hypothesis irretrospective So the idea is if you're looking for patterns you are doing some exploratory analysis That's fine But testing the hypothesis on back testing your hypothesis on the same data set is not because you are going to confirm What you already saw? That's kind of like cheating So that was a statistical significance slightly more technical topic One more thing a little bit of a bonus content Celebrities on Twitter this could be you know a talk on its own talk of many many hours if celebrities talking about things they don't understand on Twitter and coming up with strong statements and You know I could be lazy and pick up any kind of celebrity and I would find something here I went for for big guys who is doing a lot of work nowadays in terms of Charity and fighting Malaria and lot of humanitarian Work and talking about his work. Basically. He's trying to make a point here about how mosquitoes are dangerous And he's reporting some numbers about number of people who die When they encounter a shark is a relatively small number compared to that's from mosquitoes Those are row numbers and that's fine The point is well Again, we're looking at numbers, but what is the cause so the conditional probabilities are of course different I never encounter a shark in my life But I've encountered many many mosquitoes. So You see the picture here is reported as if mosquitoes are terrible, of course They are the cause of malaria and he's focusing on that at the moment But the condition that we are looking at is something completely different So wrapping up I Gave you a few examples of lies and big lies and Something done on purpose or something done by mistake. So it feels like we are screwed essentially everybody lies now the point of the talk is not to make not to create like a new generation of Conspiracy or anything like that the point of the talk is simply to make clear that this kind of problems can happen to everybody and We as citizens In the general case and the specialized users some of us are data only some of us are data scientist Some of us may have some kind of more formal training in statistics Other less the idea is that it's important to ask questions and to make a clear distinction between what is good science versus, you know, big loud headlines And as I said, nobody is immune to this. It could happen by mistake to everybody So it's always important to ask questions. For example, what is the context? What is the bigger picture? Who's paying for a particular study? Is there anything that is not being reported? Is there anything missing and All in all, you know, so what you see some numbers. You see some statistics. So what you should put things in a context So that's the end for me Thanks for staying sticking around. I just want to mention Alex mentioned it already I'm part of the organization committee for by data London So if you want to listen to people who know about statistics and data science and machine learning and data engineering and all the stuff Next month, we will be down the road near Tower Bridge with a three-day conference Thank you very much We have two minutes for questions You're close Thank you. Thank you. That was that was great. That was very funny Unfortunately, we live in a world where the truth doesn't matter as much as Important people saying stuff and you know, we have the benefit of being in this lovely room and listen to these cool talks and There are millions of people not in this room listening to this cool talk who think for example that 350 million pounds a week is a reasonable sounding number So what what more can we do other than just be informed and just just us knowing about this Yeah, that's that's a huge question So the opposite of ignorance is probably education so that's that's my starting point and of course money always win against Education and good intention. So I don't have any short term or longer plan, but I Would say yes education and carry on with education is is kind of the reasonable Good citizenship type of thing in terms of making big statements and there is always the issue that There are part of society that should be held accountable by some other parts of society So when there is a politician making Wrong statement as wrong as in reporting wrong numbers on purpose. There should be a journalist asking the question It's not happening every time it's happening less and less nowadays and with what we experience online with the freemium modus of free content but Advertisement pay for it. It's much easier to publish You know extreme views extreme extreme Polarizing content if you want then it is to have a proper in-depth Analysis on whatever issue you're discussing Proposing mild views and suggestions. So yeah, it looks like we're screwed Another question, how can I get better at lying with statistics? Yeah, that's not kind of the point of I guess it yeah, if you have if you have an agenda you can always twist the table and Propose correct numbers that are Suggesting that your story is correct and pretending to ignore numbers that are not Supporting your your point. That's what people do all the time, right? So is omission really a lie Well, it depends on the context again I think you just need more Twitter followers. Yeah Thank you very much Marco. We're out of time for questions, but I'm sure they can take them offline. Yeah, can carry on. Thank you very much


We demystify what goes on behind the therapy room door. Join us on this voyage of discovery and co-creative conversations. This is The Therapy Show, behind closed doors podcast, with Bob Cook and Jackie Jones. Welcome back to the next episode, which I think is 133, Bob, but I might be wrong. No, I think it's 123. Do you reckon it might be? No, no, it must be 130. I don't know. I don't either. I've always relied on you, Jackie, because you say, welcome to wonderful Bob Cook, and then you keep the count. Well, I'm going to commit to this being episode 133. I'm going to go with that. I like that. And what we're going to be talking about in this episode of The Therapy Show, behind closed doors is what are the most successful elements in the therapy process or what we believe are the most successful elements in the therapy process? Well, I'll start off. You start off. Love. I like that. And compassion. I like that as well. We could go on and on, but without an open heart, without compassion and kindness for ourselves and for the person sitting opposite us, not much will happen. No. And I like the way you said for ourselves as well, because I think that's really important. Well, I agree with you. Without that for ourselves, as well as for the person sitting opposite us, not much therapy will happen. No. I really believe that. I really believe that. For me, I think it is so important as therapy that we do, do work on ourselves. Oh, all the great therapists have undertaken a lot of the therapeutic work on themselves.  Yeah, I've just been on one. You spend time on yourself, and that's something I've always found quite difficult, personally, to carve out time just for me. Well, this is a retreat. Well, my retreats you're talking about, the one in November I've just been on, was 13 years I've been going on twice a year with most of the same people. It's a personal development week, really. It's aimed at reflections and thoughts and internal meanderings. I love that. I love to just take the time to have those meanderings and personal development, and no offence meant at all with this, Bob. But for somebody of your age, 73, is it now? Yeah, 73. To still be taking time for personal development and meanderings. And 13 years have you been doing this for twice a year? Twice a year, yeah. Yeah, so that's true commitment to yourself, that is. Yeah, and I think in the therapeutic process I've learned that I wouldn't be, first of all, I wouldn't be the therapist I am today without my own therapy, and with these this sort of meanderings, if you like. Yeah. And I think that's the least I can give to the person opposite me. Because I think that was one of my thoughts about successful elements, is personal development. I know we're all continuous professional development and those sorts of things, and it's not just doing the training once and that's it for the next 20 or 30 years. You know, I think it's a really hard one for people coming into this profession. And maybe if I go back to feel, no, it's not true of me because I was so though, I was so much of my own history to explore therapy was a lifeline for me. So I went into therapy every week for the duration of the four, five, six, seven years. So I remortgaged my house to be able to do these things. Now, I'm not saying everybody goes to that length, but you know, I've been running these trainings at the Institute for the last 37 years. And I've never, and I know when an economic downturn at the moment and biases around cost and everything else, but the trainees and students that come on the course, who on our course, you have to do 160 hours. It's not therapy. That's 40 hours a year. I don't know who put that figure on it, but anyway. It was four, four, so 160, I suppose. And there's always this stipulation of evidence and they've done this, these therapy. And I know it's costly, but I do know that the best psychotherapists are the therapists that have done their own work. There is no doubt about that. And it's ongoing as well because life happens. So I suppose it is probably a very important element for successful therapy. And with that, it's really a gift to your clients. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And modelling again. I know we spoke in the last podcast about, you know, modelling positivity and that sort of stuff, but prioritising ourselves and taking care of ourselves is a really good thing to model to our clients. And the therapists that don't do this, by the way, and in the counselling world, us think of the BACP, which is a regulating body, they don't require you to do any. Hours at the present moment of reflecting on yourself. And I mean, a lot of courses say, look, you've got to do 20 hours or 30 hours or whatever it is.  Yeah. So a depressed client comes in. Yeah. A part of yourself is depressed, but you don't really really, I don't know, understand it or deny it or disavow it. So you can end up identifying with your clients and then you end up merging with your clients. Nothing much happens really. Which is a danger of that anyway. If you're not very self-aware as a therapist, is that, you know, over-identification or whatever? Yeah, absolutely. But self-care, knowing yourself, how important, isn't it? The love and the compassion and everything. Yeah, I like that. One of the other things, I think, and I know that you've touched on this previously when you're doing assessments, is to ask the support network that people have got. I think that's kind of one of the elements for success is that the client has a positive support network around them, outside of the therapy room as well. Yeah, and that's not necessarily going to talk about the therapy. No. About just making that clear. It's about having people who will be on your side. Yes. Take account of you and be able to go to the pictures with or play temp involvement with or if you feel really hopeless because of whatever you can phone them up or you're not isolated, withdrawn and stuck in some place where you only got the devils in your own head. Yeah, because I think there's some, and maybe it's just, I don't know, the world that we're living now, but there's a lot of my clients that have toxic people around them that have a massive impact on their recovery in the therapy process, and sometimes the process encourages them to maybe limit their exposure to certain people, put it that way, which again is another way of self-care. It's taking care of yourself. Yeah, absolutely. And we're in the period of festivity at the moment with Christmas. Yes, it's worth mentioning. Yeah, well I was thinking of support mechanisms. Yes. Quite often therapists take a week off. Yes, yeah. In ten days over Christmas, and clients without those support mechanisms are often alone in their own heads over this time. Yeah. So it is important, it's a vital question to ask any client she'd take on board about their support mechanisms. Because this time of year isn't always a happy festive time for everybody. There's a lot of people that are on their own, and when the therapist, which we are absolutely entitled to take a break just like everybody else does, it is something that we need to be mindful of. Oh, we need to always be mindful of it. And I said on a podcast a year ago, I think, and I don't know what it was about. Perhaps it was last Christmas, so I'm thinking the same story.  And I was thinking actually, if a supervisor put up a Christmas tree and XXX because they wanted to make sure that in their thinking the clients would have good Christmases. I know the intention of that, the positive intention. However, for a lot of clients the therapist see they've not had good Christmases. Absolutely, yeah. Have a therapist attempt to force that down there being actually produces the opposite effect of what the therapist intended to do. And I think therapists need to explore the reality of people's Christmases in their own past and how that forms how they are Christmas today. Absolutely, and the material side of things, going right back to flipping September, it's in, it's everywhere, it's in your faces.  They're out on the shelves. It goes on for a long time. Yeah, absolutely. And that doesn't mean, you know, not celebrating. But I think it's important to honor the clients in front of you in terms of their own histories. Yeah. And not attempt somehow, foist your own maybe as positive Christmases. It wasn't in my case onto the class in front of you. Yeah. Would you have the conversation with clients on the run up to Christmas? Always. Okay. 100%. Yeah. I'd always have a conversation about what was your past Christmas is like. And how did you cope and was it a good time for you? How do you want me to be on Christmas, especially if you're running a cycle? It's a really good one, Bob. How do you want me to be on the Christmas? To ask them, yeah. Yeah. To get their reality, not to force society's reality on them. Yeah. One other thing about when you were talking about, you know, Helm's to make up a successful psychotherapy process in a way. I think celebration, and what I mean by that, when people make changes, which are positive, and they integrate those changes, I think it's really important to take time out to celebrate with them and to encourage them to celebrate themselves, their achievements. Yeah. I don't think we do that enough as grown-ups. I think once we leave school, you know what I mean? And we've stopped having congratulation assemblies and all those sort of things. I don't think we congratulate ourselves enough at all. No. Quite often people are so focused on going up the mountain, they stop. Or the next mountain, when they're all, you know, they come halfway down one, they're already focusing on going up the next one. Yeah. So I always encourage clients to celebrate even the smallest changes and take ownership of what they've achieved. Yeah. I like that. So I think that's successful in the journey of a psychotherapy treatment. Yes. If you're getting them to take ownership of the positive options that they've chosen instead of keeping with that blueprint of what often is a destructive script. Yeah. And I think, you know, one of the things that make up successful elements in the therapy process is having a plan. You know, sometimes people go to therapy and I don't feel like there is a plan. I've got on my initial form that clients fill out, you know, there's why are you coming to therapy and what are you hoping to get from therapy? And I'll often go back and refer back to that statement that, you know, this is what you were looking to get from therapy. Whereabouts are we now in that, you know, vision that you had? I really agree. A plan. Yeah. A chart where you're at. Yes. Yeah. Have feedback from the clients as well.  You know. Yeah. And instead of just going on forever without some reviewed contracts. Yeah. Yeah. Because things change. What they originally come with isn't necessarily what they want. We know that. But it's a checking process, I think. Definitely. Other elements, mistakes. Yeah. I think that it's very, very important at the right time in the psychotherapy sequence.  Into the time process of the psychotherapy treatment. But I think it's important for the therapist to fall off the perch for the client. Yes. In other words, for successful psychotherapy treatment, there has to be a very strong relation with the beginning. The therapist needs to be all potent and the negative. So I'm not talking about, you know, us foisting things into the time process of interject. They need to be a figure where the person, the client can respect and have as a mentor and stand up to the parents in the heads. And they also need to make mistakes. And then you did fall off the perch. So that the client can take an equal power dynamic in that relationship. Yeah. With the client. Otherwise, they could go, they could leave therapy and be a copycat of Bob Cook for the rest of the lives, which might be slightly better, but it's still not them taking ownership of themselves. So the therapist does have to fall off the perch. And also make mistakes, which is what everybody does in any human relationships. Yeah. It's one of the worst tyrannies of psychotherapy. It's the so-called, in inverted commas, perfect psychotherapist. It's a difficult one. Because it's smiling because I was thinking, what's difficult about that? Well, you know, it's easy to make mistakes. I do it quite often, Bob. But what I'm thinking is, you know, dependent on the type of mistakes that's made and the rupture that that could potentially cause in the relationship, it's a really good way of modelling coming back from something like that. So I'm talking about. Yeah. But exactly like you said at the beginning of this, the timing needs to be... Oh, that's why I said it. In order to be able to come back from that. That's why. Yeah. We're talking about later on in psychotherapy. Absolutely. Yeah. It has to be a very strong working relationship between therapists and clients. Yeah. They've had to go through the sequences I've talked about. And there has to be like Ian and Yang. There has to be some equalising up eventually. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Otherwise, we don't have an equality of human discourse. Yeah. And I like that. I like that even in an equaling type of thing that I'm okay, you're okay. There's no one-upmanship and all that sort of stuff. That's not because most of your clients will have had an experience, a power dynamic in their histories. When the parent or significant other came from where I'm okay, you're not okay position. I was discussing this with somebody this week. And it's really something personally that's been going on for me. That power dynamic with my oncologist. Wow. Replaying stuff from my past and parental dynamic. And it's really interesting that I picked up on the fact that it's kind of the same thing. Yeah. Yeah. And often authority figures without even intending that process for whatever reasons. Oh, I think he intends it, Bob. I think he intends it. Yeah. I'm not getting caught up in your- No, let's not. Oh, your history. But I was thinking of authority figures who step in that position may intend it. Yeah. And also because of their own script might be unaware of the impact of that position on the other. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. But in a psychotherapy treatment which needs to be successful, which I believe where the client needs to be encouraged to take ownership of their own importance and their own destiny, and needs to be, I believe, some equality in discourse between the therapist and the client and not a one down position which is often their experience of their history. Yeah. And I think I don't think I'm making assumptions here when I say that often clients come into their therapy process being one down, they're looking up to you as soon as they walk in through the door that you've got all the answers and everything. Yeah. Usually. When you get to the festive spirit, if you like, I call that a particular phenomena which is a Father Christmas phenomena. They come in expecting the therapist to be Father Christmas and pull a magic trick out of the- used to frighten the life out of me that when I first started being the therapist that I was expected to have all the answers and I knew I didn't have them. Yeah. Yeah. And I understand it would frighten you and it takes some experience to be able to understand that as an important part of psychotherapy process and to be work through. And that's what I meant is the therapist either hopefully consciously needs to understand that the client needs to have the therapist fall off the perch. Yeah. Yeah. Psychologically and the therapist needs to allow that to happen and not take it personally. And the therapist is ego driven. I was just going to say that's when our ego needs to get out of the way. Finally narcissistic. May not allow that to happen and that would be in my view a professional tragedy. Yeah. It's a humbling, the whole process of the cycle of that Father Christmas thing to building a relationship to falling off the perch, to fixing the rupture or whatever. That's like a wonderful cycle to be a part of with somebody. It's wonderful. And for a narcissistic therapist could be very painful. So that's why narcissistic therapists I think, well if you've done your own therapy maybe you can move away from that narcissistic position. Yeah. Because otherwise there's no room for the clients in the whole therapeutic treatment. So I think it's another reason for insisting on trainee therapists having their own therapy. Yeah. Yeah. Because they have to fall off the perch. I believe in that equal in a young process we're talking about. Yeah. A lot of therapy goes wrong. I don't like writing long. But well I'll say, are you saying wrong for the sake of language? You can say it Bob. We all know each other. Yeah. Goes wrong when you get the narcissistic therapist who gets so wounded when I think it's a psychological necessity of the client if the treatment's successful to see the therapist in a human life fall. But there's a wounding for the therapist to narcissistic level and they can't bear it. So they then do something or act out in a way where all the good therapy work has been destroyed. And that is a sad tragedy on a personal and a professional level for both the therapist and the client. Yeah. I can imagine. Because it usually means that the client then starts to replay their own script of a power dynamic which has been so unhealthy for them. Yeah. For me personally I find it helpful and empowering and encouraging and all that to have somebody that's just a few steps ahead of me in any new field that I'm learning. Yes at the beginning in the middle. Yes. But maybe not so useful when you're working towards taking charge of your own destiny. Separating yourself out from your history. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Different processes, isn't it? But you can only do it if those first parts of sequences of the psychotherapy have happened. I agree with you. Yeah. And you can only do it if the therapist can cope with that actually. Yeah. So I'm quite happy to fall off the pedestal. You are. You are. You are. You are. Because only you've got a sense of humility and humbleness and you also understand the process. In supervision when I'm supervising therapists I'm often talking about this very process we're talking about now. Love. I think it makes you more approachable and more like you touched on it, that human side of the therapist. Yeah. So those elements make up an effective therapy. And I started off with being in love, kindness and compassion. Yeah. They have to be there I think. Yes. Yeah. For a successful therapy relationship. Yeah. For ourselves and the client. I loved it when you said that. Yeah. It's for both. We have to allow the therapist to love us, which is usually the hardest thing. Yeah. For the third. We have to allow ourselves, right. So we have to allow our, how can I explain this? We have to allow the clients to love us. Yes. Yeah. That often is so hard for therapists for lots of reasons to do maybe their own scripts and their own histories, but also the therapist unfortunately in my opinion can interpret that relational need of expression of love. They can interpret as over dependable, over dependents. I've done that in the past Bob, I must admit. Yeah. Yeah. But they're using me as a crutch or that there's some sort of, like you said, dependency on me. Yeah. And then what happens is that the psychopath which often goes into defending a defensive moment themselves, then the client closes down and repeats history. Hmm. There's a relational need for human beings to express love, I believe. Yeah. Yeah, definitely to love them, to express it and to receive it. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And often this is the crux of an effective psychotherapy treatment actually. That relationship with therapists and the clients is at the heart of cure, I think. Yeah. All clients need a witness on the road, on their road. All clients need somebody on their road to their personal achievements. I like that. And that's what we are, aren't we, a witness, a witness to the change in the journey. Yeah. That's another really important element, isn't it? Yeah. I do like that, that touched me that, that we, you know, it's an honour to be a witness to, on the journey, yeah. Yeah. And hopefully we make an impact on the way as well. What a lovely place to end, Bob, on this penultimate one of the year. I don't know what we're going to do next session. Well, first of all, you have a great Christmas. You too. Absolutely. And to the listeners, if you celebrate Christmas, then hope it's a good one. Yeah. I'm thinking the title that we've got written down here is Life After Therapy. That might be quite a good one for ending the year. Yeah, yeah. That would be a very good one for the end of the year. And we can have the excitement like a Christmas present of the second one. But I like that title. Yeah. Because, Pines, we need to, I'm going to explain this, we need to give ourselves a vision of okayness after therapy. Yeah, because ultimately it does need to come to an end at some point. I know, I know for you, Bob, you've been going for a long, long, long time. It's the three I'm talking about. The last one is in March. It would be 14 years then. So I have to forward and it's going to end in March. Wow, is it? Yeah, it has to have an ending. I mean, the lead is 77. Oh, right. The group is 87. Most people are in the 70s. Oh, I love that, Bob. It's like a film about that. That's amazing. Like the Thursday murder club. I've ever read those books by Richard Osmond, which is actually based in a, are they called elderly homes anymore, whatever they're called. And they create a club and they're all in their 70s, 80s and 90s. And they're solving murders and things like that. But anyway, so the youngest, I think, the youngest people were sort of 57 or 58. But majority of them were in like 60s, 70s and some of the 87. And, yeah, so it'll be a, it'll be an emotional ending. But and an ending that isn't, you know how to explain. It's like the circle, the completion of a journey for me. Yeah, yeah. I'm not sure how I will end. But I do know that I need to honour the journey where I've come, where we all come, and everything that goes with that. Absolutely. What an ending to have. So the title of that, what you just said, Life After Therapy. Yes. Is an interesting podcast, which I'm more than happy to be involved in. I'm so pleased that you'll be here, Bob. Okie doke, until next time. Yeah, take care and see you next time. Absolutely. Bye-bye.


A threatening message against police officers on Facebook has led to the arrest of a 20-year-old Grand Rapids man. The message was posted at 4 p.m. yesterday and was a threat to kill law enforcement officers. It read, Want to see some cops get killed? How about you? Especially some of the Grand Rapids cops. Within minutes, other members of the community seeing this on Facebook began notifying the Grand Rapids Police Department and Itasca County Sheriff's Department of the Threat. In fact, people as far away as Michigan and Arizona contacted the departments. Thanks to their efforts, within the hour, the man was located at a home in Grand Rapids and taken into custody. Itasca County Sheriff's Department officials say the 20-year-old Grand Rapids man was held for psychological evaluation. If you've enjoyed this segment of Lakeland News, please consider making a tax-deductible contribution to Lakeland Public Television.


Live from Boston, Massachusetts, it's theCUBE, covering OpenStack Summit 2017, brought to you by the OpenStack Foundation, Red Hat, and additional ecosystem support. Welcome back, I'm Stu Miniman, joined by my co-host this week, John Troyer, here at the OpenStack Summit in Boston, Massachusetts. Happy to welcome back to the program, Lee Doyle, who's principal analyst with Doyle Research. Lee, nice to see you. Nice to see you, thanks for having me. All right, so, networking's your main space.  Last year, I mean, telecommunication, NFV, this year, it seems like half the people on the main stage worked for some big telco and NFV, buzz on the edge. Before we get into some of the initial piece, what's your take on the OpenStack community in general and the show? We're getting towards the end, so what's your take been this week? It's always great to have the show in Boston, my hometown. So, OpenStack and Telecom have been going to get hand-in-hand since the beginning of OpenStack, really, and a lot of contributions and use from some of the big service providers who are here, you know, AT&T, Verizon, some others. So, it's really becoming, OpenStack's really becoming a good platform for their NFV and virtualization, modernization efforts. Yeah, before we get into some of the cool new stuff, core networking, I mean, Neutron's one of those things we've been banging on for years. It seems like it's matured to a bit, but always the one, I mean, networking's never done, right? We're always cranking on it, doing new things. Anything from some of the, what do you hear about the stability, you know, what the community hears, is the networking thriving good, you know, any feedback you've had? Sure, no, always a good question, and always a question that I ask, you know, folks, I think we've seen significant maturity in Neutron, it's stable, it performs, it does a lot of things, you know, we expect networks to do, but there are still our third-party network solutions. If you look at a big switch or a Cumulus or others, say, you don't want to use Neutron or you want to enhance it, you know, feel free to work with us to provide even better networking. Yeah, in a broad trend, companies, you mentioned, they're software companies. Absolutely.  How is that, you know, software eating the world, you know, stack up when it comes to the network space? I mean, I think the majority of the value in networking, as in, you know, IT is in software, right? The majority of the revenue is in boxes, which are hardware and software integrated. So we're, you know, from a technology standpoint, it's very software-driven, from a market standpoint, it's still box-driven, we're in between those two, and that's what makes this a very interesting point in time. Maybe you could tease apart for us a little bit. For people on the enterprise side, they're used to hearing the letters SDM, right? Here, if you're talking to telecom NFV, slightly different takes on some similar problems about service management and delivery. In OpenStack, are the same bits, are the same, is Neutron used by the enterprise or SDN, is the same way it's used at the network core by the service providers, or are these really two different planes that are developing? Right, and it's a bit of a complex question. I mean, at Doyle Research, what I've done to simplify is talking about software-based networking. So that includes SDN, that includes NFV, those things overlap, and if you'll get very hung up, like, what does SDN mean at separation control and data plane? What does network virtualization, network function virtualization means? Well, that's an Etsy telecom standard for taking boxes in the telecom network and turning them into software. So I try to get away from that and move towards, okay, what is it that we're trying to accomplish? Well, with OpenStack, we're trying to deliver networking. It's going to be in software. There still might be, and probably is, some form of ethernet switch or other boxes moving the bits, right? So I think that a lot of the way I think about it is some of the SDN products that I mentioned, like a Cumulus or Big Switch, would be enhancements to something that's a core function of OpenStack, which I wouldn't traditionally call SDN, but that's my view. We, speak to us, what have you heard about Edge? It was one of those things we heard kind of the buzz coming in. There's a couple of different definitions. Telecommunications, people have a very, that's the edge of our network. When I talk to enterprise people, oh, it's kind of IoT and sensors. So what are you hearing about Edge? How does network play across all of those? Edge is very much how you define it or which environment you're talking about, right? So traditionally in the telecom world, you've got your core of your network and you hear Edge in a network, and how that's defined in between because you have network capabilities all throughout the environment. So SD-WAN has by far been the hottest technology, not just in terms of buzz, but in terms of actual deployment, both an enterprise and service provider. In the service provider space that sort of blurs into what the VCPE offerings are, so that you hear Verizon, Telefonica, just made an announcement with Nuage on that and so you can go through all the major service providers, either they're incorporating SD-WAN functionality into the VCPE or they're announcing SD-WAN functionality separately. Is there any connection between the SD-WAN stuff and OpenStack? I hadn't heard it talked about, of course, hot technology. We covered Riverbed's announcements last year but Tele has been on the Cuba number of times, just acquired by Cisco. Where do you see SD-WAN playing out? Is this the year that it just becomes a feature? Does it still stay as a distinct market segment? Yeah, so on the OpenStack question, OpenStack traditionally is sort of a cloud-based, a bigger data center thing. And there are elements, of course, that you can use and leverage from OpenStack at the Edge. So in terms of SD-WAN, we're at the hockey stick phase. Market's going straight up, starting to see a wide-scale deployments across a large number of verticals, usually the verticals that have lots of branches. So you look at financial services, you look at retail, but you can extend to government and healthcare and anywhere where you're trying to do a lot of connectivity between distributed environments. And the real change is that previously you do a hub and spoke network. You get MPLS, you take the information from the branch and you move it to your corporate data center or data centers. Well now, cloud, SaaS, the information doesn't need to go to the data center. In fact, if it goes to the data center, you add a lot of latency. So SD-WAN is adding the intelligence, the traffic steering, the ability to manage multiple networks. And to move away from MPLS and towards more cost-effective internet connectivity. So that is still 25, Vip Pella was the biggest company taking out recently, but there's still 24 other solutions and probably more being announced over the next six months. About 24, huh? At least, yeah. Yeah, I'm curious. We talk about hybrid cloud and multi-cloud. And of course, networking's one of the things that has to tie all of that together. How do things like Kubernetes and just the public to private piece, how's that shaking out in the network space? Well, networks have to support multi-cloud environments. So they need to support what's happening privately, publicly, VMware, Red Hat, OpenStack, obviously, and soon to be containers. Each of those are a little bit different. And so can you have a network solution that spans all of that? I mean, one of the things that VMware is very public about talking about and was talking about at this show is their ability to do the hybrid, public, private. And Red Hat talks about that and I spent a lot of time last week on that topic as well, so. As you're talking with network engineers, both, I guess, both as service providers and out at the enterprise. We've talked about all this change with hybrid cloud. We're now switching from maybe a hardware-centric model to more software-defined, literally. Are you seeing new skill sets needed for these network engineers, automation? It does the job change as we go forward. And absolutely it changes. So when you look at traditional CCIE, which is Cisco certified, that's about Cisco APIs, it's about Cisco boxes in a world where there's a lot of other software elements and you've got a tie to different orchestration, different management, public, private cloud. There are absolutely these different skill sets and there needs to be an evolution and it's one of the challenges of the networking industry because there simply aren't enough people who are familiar with building sort of the new style software-driven networks as there need to be. With all this acceleration and change, how are you seeing people, say, at the management layer, the management layer by people, the CXO layer, how are they dealing with all this change? New technologies, emerging technologies, things are not slowing down. No, and there's a lot of, so AT&T has a large-scale public training program to try to get its people skilled up to the new technologies. I know a lot of the other telcos who have been less public about it are doing the same. If you go to a large network user groups like ONUG, they're talking about new skill sets and how to train there. There's also the organizations. Do you blend compute, storage, application and networking folks all on the same team? And I know you guys have talked about that previously, but how quickly do organizations do that or do they remain relatively traditional? The CIOs are thinking about that, they're reorganizing, but it's not going to be just snap your fingers and hey, everyone's ready for the new software-driven world. Yeah, I mean, it's a fascinating thing, of course. Networking industry tends to move a little bit slow, especially enterprise, and we've been talking about fast and agile for a lot of things, but that does not characterize that. That being said, it feels like things do move faster. What's the general attitude for you here from customers? Are they still reticent to move forward? Are they slow to move those processes? You kind of hear it's like things like security tend to realize I need to update more, I need to move forward. What are you here when you're talking to customers kind of today versus let's say only five years ago? Sure, so I mean, we're five years in on NFV and Etsy, and I think we're making significant progress. You hear a lot about this at the shows and where the telcos are in implementing NFV, but there's still, it's in the initial phases, and we've been talking about SDN and the enterprise for about the same amount of time, and mainstream enterprises, the hyperscale guys, Google, Amazon, Facebook, they're already there and they're very innovative, and people are following their example and leveraging that, but I think we're still early in the truly software-driven networking game. One of the questions I always have is what size company you are and what capability you have, what do you do internally versus do you just adopt a platform that's going to do all of that stuff for you? I think you and I talked about this years ago about network fabric type of topologies, all the different pieces that went out. There's certain size organization. You're going to just go to someone else that can do that. I hear some pieces, Kubernetes might be the same kind of things. Do you see that people just saying, hey, I'm just going to, it's not outsourcing anymore, but I'm going to be more strategic, focus on my business, my applications, and let somebody else handle the underlying stuff. If IT or the network or branch operations is not central to what you do, I think outsourcing it makes perfect sense, and that may be outsourcing it to a reseller or someone to manage it for you. It might still be on prem, but more and more the workloads are going to the cloud. And the reason I move away from outsourcing, the old outsourcing was my mess for last, and this is a more strategic, what piece of the stack do I own or what do I run versus someone else? And it's not, I told you, this is the exact configuration in something you run. It's, I'm buying X bandwidth, X performance, things like that, and it's something that's updated a little bit more frequently, and they manage that piece, and it's just further down the stack than I care to look at. Well, there's new managed service providers who look at your WAN and networks. So that comes into play. The leading telcos would certainly want to play a role here and beyond just providing the pipe. They want to take care of your networking challenges for you. So there's a lot of new options for folks who if they don't want to build and buy and sweat. Do you see a difference between what's going on inside the US and then in the rest of the world in terms of the telcos and services they're rolling out and ambitions and where they want to play? There are clearly geographic differences when you get into the telecom, but it's not a simple saying, X geography is doing that, you almost have to go operator by operator there. Anything that you've seen here at the show, this is your first summit, you've been following this obviously space for a very long time. Anything you've seen here, either sessions or vendors or users doing interesting things or anything that's excited you recently, that your areas that you're following are interested. Yeah, I mean obviously the passion here for OpenStack is undeniable and we've got a lot of people who are committed to the community and they're aware of the networking challenges and where we've cut the snicking strides we've made with OpenStack networking, but also where we need to go in the future. So it's exciting to be here and fun to see everyone. Last thing I want to ask Lee, is there anything that advice you want to give the community things that you heard of from users or you observed where we should mature over the next iteration of the solution set? Yeah, I think it's, as a technology driven community, it's always incumbent on the community to really explain the business benefits and talk about how this technology is really solving real world problems and it is, but it's making that translation sometimes is challenging. All right, well. Lee Doyle, great to catch up with you and like yourself, thrilled to be here in Boston for a technology show. Hope to have more of these here as always. It's our second week back to back here in Boston amongst all the other shows that we've been doing at SiliconANGLE Media, so stay tuned. John and I have a few more interviews left as we get to wrap up. Three days of programming here from the OpenStack Summit. Thanks for watching theCUBE.