Hello everyone and welcome to today's webcast. My name is Sarah Gonzales. I'm from Redback Conferencing and I'll be your host for today. So let's talk about difficult conversations. We've all had them and no doubt we're probably going to have many more of them. But how do we actually deal with them? What are the right ways to go about them? And do we always need to talk? Today we're joined by Matt Buschby from TAFE New South Wales. How are you today Matt? I'm exceptional. Thank you Sarah. Thank you so much for coming here. This is a topic that we're so excited about because every single person can relate to this in everyday life. So I'd like to get started, go straight into it. And let's first of all talk about why is it so difficult for people to have these kinds of conversations that you speak of? I think what happens with difficult conversations is that people procrastinate, people are scared about conflict. How do I get perceived? And also having the confidence to approach a situation. We tend to take a step back, get a little bit concerned, a little bit confused. What's the best way to do it? What happens if this person argues with me? What happens if they don't feel that the argument or the discussion that I want to have with them is valid? People tend to just say, I don't prefer not to do that. I'll let it fester, I'll let it become worse. The biggest thing about dealing with difficult conversations is to nip the issue in the bud as soon as possible. Because otherwise it tends to grow, it tends to become a bigger issue, and we get more stressed about it as well. So it's best to have those difficult conversations as early as possible. So I just want to move on to the first slide. So why do you think this, you've mentioned arm procrastination, why do you think this is something that we always tend to avoid? Is it just a human nature thing where we go into this state where we just want to hide in a shell or something like that? How does it all come about? Yeah, absolutely. We're all conflicted verse. We don't like having a fight, we don't like having those discussions where people just don't want to argue with us anymore. And I don't want to get stressed, I don't want to get upset, I don't want to get angry, I don't want that person to dislike me. We all have an innate feeling that we want to be liked by everybody. So if I bring something up that they might not agree with me about, they're going to fight against me. So we try and avoid that sort of situation. We're conflicted verse. One of the biggest things about managing conflict is that it takes up so much of our time. We think about it, we deal with it, we might get involved with it. And the thing is that conflict can be positive, conflict can be negative as well. Conflict means that we might be able to work towards a common goal, but we've got different ideas on how to handle that situation. But it's the destructive conflict that we want to have a discussion about today. Because destructive conflict ruins team culture, ruins the environment that we work in and creates stress for everybody as well. Yeah, and 18%, that's a big number of the time that we spend as managers actually managing this. And it's interesting you speak about culture because I've been in situations and you're in an open office, which I think is very common these days, and people start having conflict without realising the repercussions that that actually has on everyone else in the business. And a few people have an argument with each other, turns heads and all of a sudden everyone's looking around and everyone's walking on eggshells. So that's what we're really trying to speak about today, that sort of destructive conflict. Absolutely, absolutely. And how do we have a framework to be able to have that conversation about that conflict? What we're talking about today isn't just working in a work environment, it's all about particular life skills, life skills that we can take into a family situation, work colleagues, mother, father, partner. It's all about having that particular framework on how to have a positive conversation where the outcome is positive and doesn't become any further destructive. I put up on that slide is that 18% of our time is taken up with having difficult conversations or dealing with conflict. And if you look at it over a five day period, that works out at one day a week. And some of you might probably shake your head and go, well, that's probably not me. Or maybe that is quite an underrated sort of figure that I'll probably spend more time dealing with that. You think about your employees, your team staff, members. How do you actually deal with those situations on a regular basis? So conflict takes up that time and if we have a framework that makes our conversations more productive and that we get better solutions, that conflict time and having those difficult situations reduce as well. OK, so I want to really talk about how this all leads, what leads to a difficult conversation. But before we do, just to note for everyone, if you do have any questions, let's try and keep them high level. But please use the ask a question little tab, which is located at the bottom of your screen. And I'll get to those as we get into that sort of topic that we're speaking of. And also, please also feel free to complete the exit survey before you have to leave. But just a reminder that we are going to record this and we're going to be sending out a copy of the recording with the PowerPoint within 48 hours. So thanks for that, Matt. OK, let's get straight into it now. So what can actually lead to a difficult conversation now? I can think of probably 20 different reasons, what could, but what are the main things? Why do these difficult conversations appear? Look, it's a whole range of different things and I've put down four. And the first one is under performance is that we might have staff members that aren't performing within a team. They might not be pulling their weight. It's causing conflict with the other team members as well. Team members are pulling, picking up extra tasks and duties on that person's behalf. That person, you know, our job as a as a team manager or a leader or involved in that situation means that we need to identify what's causing that they might have to be having personal troubles. They might not just be skilled enough to be able to do that work. That's what leads us to have that difficult conversation to address that. Secondly, we talk about behavioural is that it might be that person just can't get up in the morning, can't just like sleep early.  So, you know, behavioural is another big issue why we need to address certain behaviours. And if a person is not fitting into a team culture or an environment that they don't feel comfortable in, we need to address that as well and find out what get it down to you know, the bare bones and why that actually happens. The third one is response to change is that changes are constant. And some people are resistant to change. So we need to be able to identify why they are resistant to change. And changes is happening all the time and people handle it in different ways. People can go into themselves, they can fight against the change. But my fourth one is poor work practices. Poor work practices is huge. It might not be that they're skilled enough, they might be put into the wrong position. We promote them to the level of their incompetence. There's a whole range of different ways with poor work practices that we need to address as a team manager or as a leader. And it's important to nip those in the bud as quickly as possible, because otherwise, you know, that can lead into, you know, poor practices with customers, not meeting deadlines, and failed sales opportunities as well, and a timeliness, responsiveness, we need to be able to address those things really quite quickly. So I feel like as someone in a leadership position that this can be put a lot on the people that we're managing as leaders and managers, are there certain things that we do that sort of infuriate this sort of environment and get people really worked up and therefore enhance the conflict and give it, you know, more room to move.  So is this does this work two ways? Yeah, absolutely. I think the biggest thing is is that in a leadership position, what gets people frustrated the most is that those that are watching the conflict, that there's a lack of action from from the leaders, because they don't have the skills or the confidence to address those poor behaviors or those poor work practices. So that infuriates, which is the question that you've asked Sarah was, is that in action by leaders in addressing conflict, it creates an environment within the team that people start to feel frustrated with. And that's where I talk about festering and growing as well. But I think the second part of that is fairness in how you deal with the conflict as well, is being able to address it quickly, but also fairly and consistently as well, is that if you pick up somebody on a particular poor behavior and you don't do it on the other person, that's where you have that difficult conversation. And that's the feedback you're going to get. Well, that person does it as well. And we'll talk about the framework when that comes up in a conversation. How do you handle that as well? So, yeah, it's about inaction. And it's also about fairness in dealing with difficult conversations and doing it in a timely manner as well. But sometimes as leaders, we're busy, we don't get the opportunity to be across everything at once. But again, if you are a leader that is in touch with your team, you should be seeing this sort of environment happening as well and get on top of it as quickly as possible. Definitely. Now, before we came online today, we actually, you mentioned the notion which I never even thought about, skilled and upskilled. How does this all work in terms of unskilled, sorry, unskilled and skilled conflict? I just assume that conflict is conflict.  There's some sort of argument happening. How does this all work? And how can we use this in our everyday lives to try and pinpoint exactly how we can deal with certain situations? Yeah, absolutely. I've put up a slide there that talks about being skilled or unskilled. Have a quick read through that and see whether you can tick any of those boxes. Be honest with yourself.  You jump on top of them as quickly as possible. Do you offer too many chances to a person saying, oh, that person's just having a bad day. I'll let it slide. Hopefully it'll be better tomorrow. Or do you get on top of dealing with troublemakers and addressing that problem as quickly as possible? Are you unskilled in being able to not be comfortable in delivering negative messages? Nobody is comfortable in offering negative messages or delivering bad information to a customer or to a colleague or to a staff member. Nobody feels comfortable delivering that information. Is this the sort of thing, if we, as managers, can we look at our people that we're managing and determine whether they're skilled or unskilled? Or is it something that's just inherent? Because wouldn't that be able to help us then in how we deal with that? Yeah, look, this takes practice. It takes confidence. It's about that is, you know, recognising that you're procrastinating about addressing an issue and actually just jumping in and giving it a go. It's about practising those skills. Not everybody feels comfortable to address a difficult conversation. We'll otherwise take a step back and hope it fixes itself. But part of developing those skills is to actually get involved as quickly as possible and deal with the situation. And don't let things fester. That's the most most important thing. Don't let things fester. Because otherwise it just creates a culture of negativity. You'll see it amongst your staff. They're not going to be happy. Team morale is going to be down. Productivity goes down. Getting top of it as quickly as possible. And it's all about practising those skills. Tomorrow, this afternoon, next week, you're not going to be, you need to practise these skills. You're not going to be perfect at the end of this. It's about jumping in and giving it a go. So, you know, we're not supposed to fester everything. We're supposed to go for it, go out there, try and deal with this conflict. But what is the process for actually dealing with this? Where do we begin? I know, and you can enlighten me on this, but in the past it's always been about trying to put yourself into someone else's shoes. Is that part of it? Because that's what I just try and do. And I assume a lot of people have heard that in the past. Is that part of what we're talking about? Yeah, I like to use the word humility when we're dealing with a difficult conversation. I'm putting up a little bit of a framework at the moment and it goes over to slides. We'll talk about each of these points as we go through. But as you can see on that slide there, we talk about demonstrating humility. It's about recognising, and that's part of that point, putting that person, putting yourself in that person's shoes. It's about saying, OK, well, you know, I'm human, I'm fallible, I can make mistakes as well. And recognising that this isn't the end of the world having this conversation is that you've made mistakes in the past as well. And recognising that you're part of the problem as well. And not putting it all onto them. The biggest thing about dealing with this structure and using this structure is the ability to stay on point. OK. Is that don't get distracted by he said, she said, that person's doing this, you need to address the problem accurately and succinctly. And you need to provide examples as well of recent behaviour that they can relate to. It's not just offering an airy, fairy example. I remember last week you did this, this and this. You might have diarised a few examples of their behaviour that you want to address and say, well, you know, you arrived late last Wednesday. You know, we need to be at work at 9am. You missed the team meeting at 9.05, you got in at 20 past 9. So you need to provide specific examples. But the first important thing in this structure is about prior preparation, is about to think about what is the problem that is happening. So you need to be able to identify what you need to have fixed and how you want to have fixed. That's about building a structure on what you need to do and what the conversation needs to look like as well. So it's about that prior preparation. The biggest thing is, is that you need to address it with that person as quickly as possible, is to say, OK, hi, Tom.  I want to have a bit of a chat about you. Let's catch up for coffee.  So you want to try and make them that feel as comfortable as possible and as neutral as possible as well. Can I just ask you, in terms of timing, so you said, just an example there, someone's had an issue with another staff member, you then need to come in, you need to resolve that conflict. How long do you actually leave something for before you have to step in and say something? Because I think this goes back to what we were talking about, being skilled or whatever. Is there a perfect time frame or is it something you just know? OK, now it's time to step in. I've had enough, even if the other person doesn't actually, a person involved doesn't want you to step in because they might feel like you're acting like their mother or something like that. How does that work? I think it's a balancing act as a leader to know your staff and to know your team. We all have bad days, you know. I might fly off the handle. I might be a little bit aggressive more so than what I normally would. But, you know, my leader, my team manager might say, OK, well, Matt's having a little bit of a bad day. He's had an off day. He's tired. He worked all weekend. We'll give him that sort of grace period to say, yeah, OK, that was just a month off. But if it's a regular occurrence, I'm starting to recognise that there is a change in me or in that team member. It's time to get on top of it before it gets any worse. So I think it's about being in touch with your staff and with your team to know how they're feeling and what's going on in their lives as well. It's not about being best friends, but it's about being able to recognise any particular long term changes over that time. But you mentioned about mothering the person.  But if it was an ongoing process that I was aggressive to other team members, that's something that we need to address quickly. So I think it's a little bit of give and take and be able to see whether it's an ongoing issue.  Why are you looking at me when you say that? I don't know. I was thinking more about myself. I was hoping there'd be some hair and makeup today, Sarah, but didn't happen. Oh, I let you down. But but look, the odd occasion doesn't need yet a difficult conversation. We're talking about ongoing behaviour that needs action and correction as well. OK, so preparation, set the tone of the meeting, set that conversation style. Biggest thing is, is name the issue. What is the issue that we need to address? It's you turning up late. It's about how you speak to your colleagues. It's about how do you get your proposals to your clients on time. Name the issue that you want to address. OK, avoid being able to have sort of airy, fairy things. Get straight to the point. People don't like fluff. All right, you're going to be respected in this process and people are going to trust the process if you name the issue closely and clearly as well, because people just don't like to hear waffle. Get straight to the point. Name the issue. Get it over and done with as quickly as possible. State that the outcome is that you want to be able to state that you want to fix this solution. You want you want to fix this problem. You want to make sure that the environment becomes happier, more comfortable, more confident for everybody else around you. So state that you want to fix the problem as well, that this isn't a saccable or fireable offence, that you want this person to be working at the best possible capacity and level as possible. Describe the emotions. First step in describing the emotions.  I feel embarrassed for you when you speak this way to that particular person in this meeting. It makes me feel uncomfortable to see members of my team putting other members of the team down. So I'm putting that personal humility. I'm putting my own personal spin on it to say that I'm feeling involved and I'm getting personally affected by the behavior that I'm seeing from you. So at this stage, I'm doing all the talking. OK. If they're trying to interrupt me and argue with me... Yeah, well, how do you... Is there like a hand? Is there a hand? Is there a signal? Stop! That's going too far. That's probably not the humility part of it, isn't it? No, that's right. But again, if you're... The thing is, is that you want to control the conversation for the first half. Then we're going to invite them to provide feedback, but ask them politely to say, I need to finish what I need to say, then invite feedback after that. But that's where if you're providing specific examples of what their behavior has been, there's no argument against that to say, OK, well, last Wednesday, you turned up at 9.20, you needed to be here for 9 o'clock for a 9.05 meeting. But that also happened two weeks before as well. There's an ongoing behavior here. We need to look at some strategies to be able to get you here on time because the stake, which is my next point, is that we are looking unprofessional to our client when you are regularly turning up late. So what do we need to do to make sure that you're here? Which is my next slide, which talks about inviting a response from them, but also asking for a solution from them as well. So putting it into there. Put it into them because they need to own the solution. There's no point in me giving them the solution because are they going to implement it? Are they going to own the solution? That makes sense. So you want them to provide the solution so that they can actually implement it. Yeah. It's not like being told that you have to do this. It's about part of that delegation process as well. People will tend to react and do things more effectively if they own them as well. And that's part of why delegating authority is so good because people feel ownership and that they want to do the best of it as well. So inviting. How does that person fix that problem? But identify that you want to resolve the problem, that you want to make sure that this person works effectively, efficiently and a part of the team. Invite a response. Keep them on track.  A lot of people go to that, don't they? Just straight away, just blaming someone else, anyone except for them, which I think... Exactly right. Is there a stage where you get through part of this process? And I might be jumping ahead here, but... And some people just can't be worked on. Mm-hmm. Like, at what stage in the process, if they're interrupting or if they're blaming on other people, are you just like, okay, enough is enough? Maybe I can't resolve this conflict with you. What do you think the next step is? What would you do? Well, I think it depends on how many times you give people a chance to work on this with. I might go up to someone, you know, once or twice. Third time, I'd be like, oh, enough's enough. You know, I obviously can't resolve this with you. You're obviously not, you know, working hand-in-hand to try and have it resolved. So the next step is to... Move them on. Yeah, move them on. Absolutely. If they're not being an effective member of the team and that you have given them opportunities and you've had these conversations with this person and their behaviour's not changing, you need to look at, am I providing this person enough training? Am I providing, are they in the wrong possible role? Do we need to move them on out of the business or into another section? Are they operating at a different level than what they're capable of? So there's a range of different things that we need to look at as well. But again, from a leadership point of view, we need to give everybody the best possible opportunity to perform at the best level. So it's a really good question. So when do we say enough is enough? And I think that comes down to the HR policies of the organisation as well. Is it a warning letter to advise that the behaviour is, you know, unacceptable? But again, you need to be guided what that HR policy is within the organisation. But hopefully that your first conversation, that you've had this difficult conversation framework, has resolved that problem anyway. So when, if you have to go back through this two, three times about the same issue, that person's probably a wrong fit for the organisation as well. So that's part of your leadership is being able to make that decision as well. OK, so what's this response section that we look at? Yes, so the response is all about inviting them to provide their take on what's actually happened. So they might not have been able to express why they were late, why they haven't been performing on time. They might not have been able to express themselves. They've been too caught up in personal problems. It's important for them you to be able to invite that response. But also to keep them on task. And that's so important because when you're dealing with a response is that, you know, we're talking about this person's done that, that person's done that. And that's where you need to guide them back on task to say, we're talking about you. We're talking about this situation. I'm not interested in that. I'm going to be dealing with that at another time with that person. We're talking about you and how we're able to do this. And then to invite them to respond to the examples that you have provided them. OK. So keep them on task as well. And they're going to, they might get fiery, they might get upset, but it depends. If they've gotten upset and fiery, it means that you haven't handled the process correctly. This is all about disarming them. It's about providing humility to say that I've been involved in this. These are some of my personal strategies that I've found have worked for me. But invite them to respond because they need to be able to respond and put their sway on what's actually going on. But I'd then invite them for a solution because they need to own the solution. Nothing's going to happen if they don't own it. After that, provide a summary of the discussion and what's actually been said. Go through everything, remind them that they've come up with a solution and agree to what that solution is going to be. But the biggest thing is the follow-up is that there's no point having a conversation if you haven't recognized a change in their behavior or the behavior is continuing. The biggest thing about leadership and leading a person and is to make sure that they know that they're doing a good job. If they have seen, well, if you've recognized that they've turned up to the meeting on time for the last month, say, John, fantastic, it's great that you've been able to work through. Those strategies are really working, all right? So you're now building them back up with that confidence? Absolutely. It's about recognizing that they are doing the good thing. There's nothing better than having somebody pat you on the back and saying you're doing a great job, especially after you've noticed a change in behavior as well. So it's about reinforcing that behavior as well. But also following up, if it continues, another follow-up conversation needs to be had. So I'm just going to go back to the first slide. So we'll just quickly go through the process again. So we talk about preparation. We talk about making sure you set the scene. You know what you want to talk about and know what you want the solution to actually be. So you're prepped. You know what you want to discuss. It might be writing down some ideas. It might be about writing down what your solution is. Write down your feelings so you know what you want to discuss. Make sure that you're able to clearly identify what the issue is and what's going on and providing examples. Providing examples is critical to this process. Yeah. So get writing. Whenever something comes up, keep a diary. Keep a little bit of a diary so that way you can recognize times and specific examples because you can't argue against that. If it was just airy-fairy fluff that you were saying, oh, I've just witnessed you turning up late every so often. You know, I can argue against that. But if I've been provided specific examples, what's my comeback on that? What is the outcome? Identify that you want to fix this. Identify that you want to make sure that this gets resolved. Describe the emotions. Put that personal humility onto it. Talk about that this is the way it makes me feel when I see you this and this is how I feel when you see that. And your team members are feeling this as well. So it's about putting that personal aspect onto it. We talk about the stake and we talk about that. The customer isn't happy. We're looking unprofessional. It doesn't look good for you. You know, you're leading a team. How does that make your team members feel about you? And it becomes a snowball effect. Is that you turn up late regularly? What's that going to happen with your team? They're going to start turning up late because they see you doing it.  So talk about the stake and it can be in any sort of situation. And I did say before, it's probably a big process to handle with a partner or a family member, but the concept's still the same. How do you address that difficult situation? And it's about lots of I statements as well. And slow down the conversation as well. You want to be able to make sure that that person understands. So then the next couple of steps. Identify you want to resolve. We want to invite them to respond. Keep them on task. Ask them for a solution so they can own it. Summarize the discussion and then make sure that you follow up as well. Okay, seems like a process that isn't, it's something that you can remember quite easily. And it's got a nice flow to it as well. So you don't need to be talking to someone and looking down at your notes to follow a process the entire time. It does seem like a natural progression, which is great. It's practice. It's practice. The first couple of difficult conversations are going to be difficult. But it's practice. And this should become second nature as well. It's about disarming people as well. And being able to say, okay, get them on an even level, get them calm, disarm them as well. Perfect. Now we've got some questions coming through. So I just want to get to those. And for those of you who would like to have a copy of today's webinar, we've got some people who have arrived late. So Lisa, yep, we can definitely send you a recording as well as the PowerPoint slides within 48 hours. So first of all, we've got a question from Bernice. So communicating to staff that work behind the scenes occurs when managing difficult behaviors that they may not be aware of. And how to set realistic expectations of how difficult behaviors are managed. So for example, some staff may want that person's act. So can you comment on that? Yeah. Look, you've come into a dysfunctional team. You might be a new leader. You might have been employed to clean up the environment. The first thing to do is to set a level of expectations. You know, what are not your rules, but guidelines on what you expect, positive behavior to be in a team environment. One thing I spent 10 years as a classroom teacher and teaching event management. And one of the first things that I did as that teacher in my very first class was to set the level of expectations that I expected from those students. I never had any discipline problems for that entire semester because I made it very clear on what my expectations were. And I followed through on what my expectations were and what my consequences were going to be in the first couple of weeks. So people were able to trust and believe that I would follow through on what my actions and beliefs actually are. So the first thing to do is make your expectations clear. And then if that behavior continues, you've got a point of reference to say, this is my starting point. That starting point needed to be implemented. It's now time to have that discussion and change that behavior. And find out what the reason is behind that particular behavior from that person. There has to be something there, doesn't there? It needs to be happened, absolutely. And you'll find within teams as well is that people don't like that person. Let's get them sacked. Let's help them be pushed out of the organization as well. So it's not just the person that they feel should be sacked, but it's also that person that's creating that negative environment as well. That needs to be addressed as well. They might be the problem. They might be the problem. So it's about having that conversation as well. Now just on the process, we've got a question from Sanjay. So how does this process work in off-site or multiple locations and work-life balance environments? Yeah, absolutely. So it's difficult when you're remote accessing and working with teams. And Sarah was telling me before that they're opening a new office in Melbourne. So from Sarah's point of view, leading a new team remotely is going to be incredibly difficult because Sarah's not going to see things that are happening in Melbourne all that regularly. Things are going to be hidden from Sarah, which is a massive concern. And managing teams from a remote perspective means that you need to be able to get a feel for the environment that's going on down there. It's that regular touch point. The telephones and SMSs and emails, people can hide behind those. But I find that personal face-to-face conversation and that personal touch point is so important as well as much as web conferencing is fantastic. But from a leadership point of view and managing a team, it's important to be able to shake the hands and tread the boards with your staff as well. And that's where you get a feeling for whether what the stories are being told as well. And it's a monitoring process as well to see how does that person interact? How does that person feel with that person as well? So it's a good question about that work-life balance as well. And I guess that's the culture that's been set up in the organisation. If that person turning up late is finding it difficult because they're dropping their kids off or the kids just wouldn't get dressed at the time, do we take them off that project and allow them to start at 9.30 and get them to finish at 5.30? How do you change that work environment to better suit that person? It's about that work-life balance. It's about making a family-friendly workforce as well because that person's going to feel a lot more comfortable. They're not going to be as stressed as they come into the workplace as well because they've torn their hair out trying to get in. So, you know, identifying having this difficult conversation might also help you recognise that maybe there's a few things that you haven't noticed or haven't thought about providing a better work environment for your team. Definitely. And I think that point on face-to-face communication is important and working in the online world. You know, of course, we encourage online communication and any sort of, you know, video webcams or something like that, but you can never ever replace face-to-face communication. There has to be some sort of an element, I think, even just for human sanity. A lot of the time, you can never just rely purely on technology to make this sort of stuff work. You do need to include that human element, don't you? Absolutely. Definitely. OK, another question from Michelle. So, at the beginning, we spoke to the fact that 18% of your working week can be taken up by managing conflict. Does that include positive and destructive conflict as well in that stat? Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I find that positive conflict is fantastic because people are arguing about how best to find a solution to a goal. So, I actually encourage positive conflict as well, but it's got to be careful not to allow it to get into the destructive situation. Well, sometimes there can be a fine line, can't there? Absolutely. Definitely. Absolutely. So, Ashley also has a question. So, when inviting feedback and seeking a solution and you have an employee who visibly shuts down when engaging in that conversation, how do you handle that? It's an employee who does exceptional work and has been the product of years of poor past management and I want to help her grow. So, how do you work in that sort of situation? Absolutely. I would be looking at a mentoring situation, positive role models for that person as well, providing a shadowing opportunity for that staff member to be able to learn positive behaviours, but also it might mean that you might have a little bit more one-on-ones with that person and guide positive behaviour and to actually listen to that person. You'll find when you're working with, coming into an environment where a person hasn't been treated all that nicely, you'll find that some positive reinforcement, some positive conversations as well, might not be a difficult conversation, it might be a positive conversation that you could talk about in a very similar structure, but being able to motivate that person and guide that person, I think will change behaviour. So, it shouldn't become a difficult conversation, you know, model positive actions and behaviour and talk about where they felt that they've been let down as well, but they might also require some training as well and some assistance in that. Definitely. We actually did a webcast a few weeks ago on mentoring and it's raw in the workplace. So, if anyone wants a copy of that, just type down your email address in the survey and I'll send you a copy because it's amazed in the amount of influence that these mentoring programs are having within organisations and as a manager, it's sort of, you're not giving it to someone else, but you're managing people in so many different levels and getting that other opinion from someone else who's that mentor as opposed to that manager can be so powerful. So, yeah, definitely something we're seeing come up more and more. Something else we're seeing is lots of questions coming through, so keep it coming. I find these Q&A sessions are probably the best part because that's when we get to actually share some real-life examples. So, Neil, how do you handle staff who are working longer and paid hours to get the job done? There is some difficulty in getting the home-life work balance in place. Absolutely. I found that work-life balance is incredibly important to me is that there's a certain level of expectation of those extra hours to be an effective team member. So, people tend to accept that, but it's also about the leader recognising that that person's putting in that extra time and effort. It's not necessarily the financial reward that people are looking for. It's about that positive reinforcement and that important word thank you for that effort.  You know, it's not about the intrinsic rewards, it's about being able to give them, you know, other things to say that you show and appreciate them as well. Unfortunately, it's just what the human nature is, is that we tend to take on more than what we can. But if they're doing more work outside of work hours, maybe it's a process issue or a procedure issue. Why are they getting all their work done in the nine to five, eight hour day? Exactly. So maybe that's a process issue that you need to go back in. They might not be as effective at managing their time as well. So I think there's a few other things, questions to ask before, you know, why are you doing these extra hours?  So, you know, that might be that other issue as well. But also, you know, thank them for doing that extra time because there's nothing better than being recognised and having somebody say thank you to you as well. And this question, I was waiting for this one to come up. I thought it would come up a lot earlier. So how do you handle conflicts with someone who is above you? So, for example, a boss or a supervisor, especially when they do intimidate you? Is it the same process? Yeah, it's a really good question. It's all about managing the manager. I've always been conscious of that. It's about rapport building. And the thing about feeling intimidated, that's natural. Is that to work with somebody that's in a higher position than you to recognise that you're finding it difficult to work with them or to find that you find it difficult to be appreciated by them? So, my first situation would be to organise a doorstop meeting or a coffee meeting to say, look, can we get off site? I'd like to have a bit of a chat to you about things. Disarm them, take them out of their power environment as well. That would be my first situation. Yesterday, I did that with my team leader. I asked for a quick doorstop meeting, which means that we didn't have to sit behind a desk. It didn't mean that we sat at my desk. We were able to chat in the hallway and discuss a few things, kept it short and sweet. We were able to address what some of the challenges were that I was having. It wasn't a personal thing to do with a client. But we were able to have that conversation. So, I took that person out of their power environment. They felt a little bit more comfortable, a little bit more relaxed. That would be my first step in having that difficult conversation. Yes, this process is very sort of top-heavy, is that it's a leader discussing difficult conversation with a lower person or a person on an evil position. How do you have that conversation with somebody higher up? I would taper and temper what I would be saying, but I'd still be confident and provide examples about how you felt uncomfortable in certain times to say, okay, well, I didn't feel supported in that meeting last Wednesday. I said this and I was immediately shot down in flames. I didn't feel comfortable with that. Can we discuss that process and what made you feel that that was okay? So, it's about showing respect, humility, but also being confident as well to address that. And having those examples, I think is a huge part of it. And now it all just starts to make sense because you can't argue fact, can you? No, that's right. Yeah. That's right. And also saying, I felt this way when this happened to me at this example, really puts a whole different spin on the conversation as well. Definitely. Okay, we've got time for one more question before we go to your final thoughts. So, in the follow-up email with the recording, can I put your email address in there so people can contact you or connect with you to ask you questions and go from there? But this one I quite like just to finish off on. So, this one's from Rachelle. So, you mentioned that if a person does get upset or fiery during the conflict resolution process, then perhaps you haven't managed it well. Isn't it natural for staff to react in this manner when feedback is negative? Or is that always a reflection on the leader? Yeah, good question. I think it's about how it's framed. Is that I think that it's natural for a person to get their back up to say, well, why are you fighting with me when everybody else is doing the same thing? Yeah. And that's a natural reaction as well. But that's where I talked about fairness at the beginning and to see consistency as well. Is that if it's been a continuing behaviour amongst the team, I would address that in a team environment. Yes. So, if everybody's had the opportunity to fix it, then bring it back to say, address individual behaviour if it continues. So, yes, it's natural for a person to get upset, but I think there's a lot of things that happen before the difficult conversation to be able to set the conversation up. So, it shouldn't come as a surprise. And if they are teary, they are upset, they are angry, you need to delve more into that questioning because there's probably a lot more things that are going on behind the scenes that they're not feeling comfortable with. But also, ask them, why are you being so aggressive? Why are you being so upset? Is that I am addressing this example, this example, this example, what else is happening? There has to be something more to it. There's got to be something else to it. So, it's about your questioning technique as well. But don't get diverted away from the behaviour that you're trying to correct. Definitely. OK, so we're going to go to your final thoughts now. Just want to get an overview. You know, we've spoken about the process, we've spoken about questions and different examples and how it all works. So, what is your final thought? What can we leave people with? Look, we've got two options. We can react or respond to a conflict situation as well. You know, we don't want to react. We don't want to get our back up. We don't want to get the hairs on the back of our neck, you know, all upset. We want to be able to respond thoughtfully. We want to be able to respond and craft a response that makes people feel a little bit more comfortable as well. So, be mindful about how you're perceived and how that person is feeling. It might be a terrible, difficult time for that person at that time. So, be sensitive, demonstrate humility as well. But the biggest thing is, is take a deep breath as well, you know, centre yourself, make yourself feel a little bit more comfortable before addressing that. Keep that in mind when you're doing that as well. And also, take the time to craft an intelligent response as well. And that's part of that whole prior preparation situation is that you can think about what you want to say and how you want to say it as well. So, use that preparation time to be able to put a little bit of intelligence and thought into what you want the outcome to actually be. So, I've got a last little slide. That's not me, by the way. So, deep breath and be brave. And being brave is so important, is to say, okay, I need to address this. I need to put my big granny panties on. No more procrastination needs to be addressed because the big picture is what we need to be looking at. Yeah, definitely. And I think at the end of the day, how you deal with and respond as opposed to reacting with this sort of conflict within your organisation. It's about your personal brand, isn't it? Absolutely.  And I think it's really important if you do want to stand out, then you need to deal with this properly. 100%. Otherwise, you'll just lose it all the time. And no one wants that, do they? Exactly right, Sam. Exactly right. Yes, and I have had that feeling with the hairs on the back of your neck sometimes. So I definitely do get that. And my biggest tip today from you, thank you, was to breathe. Sometimes it does make a huge difference if you just sit back, breathe, and then take it. Sent to yourself? Absolutely. Definitely. So thank you. It's been great. I'm pretty sure everyone's learned a thing or two they can take away and apply straight away. And I think that's the best thing about this presentation. We can move on, close down the browser and actually do this today, tomorrow or the next day. So I hope you've enjoyed it. I have. Thank you for everybody for attending. Yeah, and thank you to everyone online for your amazing questions. It's great when we have some interaction and we can respond to things that are actually happening in your life at the moment. If you want any further information on Matt, please look him up on LinkedIn, Matt Bushby. Otherwise, we will be sending out his details with the recording within 48 hours. Keep a lookout for our future events that are coming up within the next fortnight. And thank you for joining today. It's been great. And we hope to see you at future business skills events. Bye for now. Fantastic. Thank you.


The fact that you write obituaries makes you especially interesting, and my first question has to do with human lives. How well do you feel family and friends actually know a person? You get to know them fairly well when you write their a bit. How well do others know them? Those closest to them? Well, of course those closest to them are the ones by definition who know them best, and so for various reasons, including just one of basic reporting smarts, we are obliged to spend time on the phone with families and close friends where there are such people to be had. But how often is the family or the close friends surprised by what's in the obituary? Divorces they didn't know about, children they didn't know about, they may have been an alcoholic when they were in their 20s, something they did in their career. Well remember that we the reporter are starting almost always from an agnostic state. Yes. Of course there are essentially two categories of obituaries that The Times does, and one are the marquee names, the presidents, the kings, the queens, the captains of industry, old time Hollywood film stars, and so on. People who are in the history books, people whom everyone has heard of. Their lives are well documented and so there are rarely any surprises either for the family or for the reporter working on the story. On the other hand, there is this whole other category of people whom I call histories, backstage players, these unsung men and women who are not household names but who because they invented something, had an idea, wrote something, you know, way back perhaps in the 1940s they put a wrinkle in the social fabric and changed the world. I've done for instance the inventor of the Frisbee, the inventor of Etch-a-Sketch, the inventor of the plastic lawn flamingo, of stove-stop stuffing. Now about those people, although clearly they did something that changed the culture, was transformative in some way, we reporters are almost always going in cold. We very often never heard the name, much less anything about what this person did. And so for that of course we're obliged to rely to an extent with appropriate double-checking and back-stopping on family knowledge because their knowledge is better and a far, far longer duration than ours.