Abertaeth. Gwethefyd, y rhai ydym ni'n gweithio'r cyfnodau cyfnodau cyfnodau 5171 yn y name o George Adam â'r ddechrau y Llywodraeth Parliwyr i'r ddau'r cyflwyngau cyfnodau ac rwy'n gofio George Adam i gael'r cyflwyngau cyfnodau. Rwy'n ddodd ar gyfer ddatganiad. Rwy'n ddodd. Mae'r ddiddordeb yn rhaid i'ch gweithio'r cyflwyngau. Mae'r ddiddordeb yn ddiddordeb. Maen nhw'n mynd i'r gorfod yr L5171. Felly, mae'n gweithio, mae'n gweithio? Felly, rhaid i'n mynd i'r gorfod yr L5171. Rhyw o ddi yêu quadrwynt hynny. Rhaid i'n gweithio'r gweithio'r gwaith? Rhaid i'n gweithio'r gweithio'r Gw meantelion L516, mae'n ymgylch gyda George Adam oherwydd y bendenteb gyllysgwyr mai sefyd gennymu cymdeithasol. Mae'n gweithio George Adam i'n gweithio'r Gw meantelion L517. or place anon a chat function during the relevant question. I can advise the chamber that business is extensive over the course of the afternoon, so I would add additional emphasis to the usual plea for questions and answers, to be as sent as possible. I call question number one, Carole Mwghing. ti pan yw'r Ffwrdd? What discussions justice ministers have had with ministerial colleagues regarding using antisocial behaviour laws to prevent people from carrying out intimidating protests outside abortion clinics? I am kept up today on the discussions held in the BufferZones working groups. That is chaired by the Minister for Public Health, Women's Health and Sport. This group is looking at all of the legislation that could be used in response to protests at abortion clinics, and that includes anti-social behaviour legislation, as the member has asked. The application of anti-social behaviour legislation in response to protests, of course, is an operational matter for Police Scotland who assess each incident individually and will take appropriate and also proportionate action in response to that. The Scottish Government fully supports Police Scotland to respond in such a manner at protests at abortion clinics if police Scotland feel it's merited and is required to protect individuals and public safety. Thank you for that response. Minister, the law states that a person is involved in antisocial behaviour if they act in a way that causes or is likely to cause alarm or distress to anyone or behave in a way that causes or is likely to cause alarm and distress to at least one person, not of the same household as them. That sense is deliberately seeking to scare or intimidate a woman who is simply pursuing the healthcare she is entitled to, not antisocial. As such, why can those laws not be used and the minister seek to ensure that those laws are used to protect those seeking healthcare now? Minister. I thank the member for that question and there is no place in our society for the harassment, abuse and intimidation of women and girls accessing healthcare services. The Scottish Government has been very clear about that. Just to reiterate what the Scottish Government is doing on this topic, the Minister for Public Health has convened a working group. That has Police Scotland, it also has COSLA and affected health boards as members. It is looking at the short, the medium and the long-term solutions to this issue. The chamber will no doubt be aware that the First Minister is committed to finding meaningful solutions to the issue of protests outside abortion clinics. She will chair a summit on this on 27 June for that side just next week. This summit will focus on the issue of buffer zones and it will be attended by MSPs, COSLA, women's rights groups and so on. It is important that any action that is taken is proportionate, balancing everyone's rights under the European Convention on Human Rights. Those are complex issues, but I want to give assurance that we are considering all of those issues very carefully indeed. To ask the Scottish Government what its response is to the Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal's recent report on hate crime in Scotland, particularly the findings that in 2021-22, disability aggravated charges increased by 44 per cent and transgender identity aggravated charges by 87 per cent compared with 2020-21. Any form of hate crime or prejudice is completely unacceptable. While the increase in disability and transgender aggravated hate crime may, in part, be related to greater willingness among victims to report incidents, we are not complacent and remain committed to tackling hatred and prejudice wherever it occurs. Later this year or shortly thereafter, we will publish a new hate crime strategy that will set out our priorities for tackling hate crime. To help drive this, we have established a strategic partnership group, chaired by the Minister for Equalities, which includes representation from the equality network and Glasgow Disability Alliance. Annie-Anne Burgess, I welcome the figures showing that total numbers of hate crimes have decreased across the north and northeast, but it is very concerning that Inverness has seen a rise in hate crimes related to sexual orientation and disability, especially since crimes of this nature are consistently under-reported. I ask the Cabinet Secretary what the Scottish Government is doing to support LGBTQ-plus and disabled people who have been victims of a hate crime to come forward and report it. The Scottish Government stands shoulder to shoulder with all victims of hate crime, including LGBTQ-plus and disabled people, and we strongly encourage the reporting of incidents directly to the police or by using one of the many third-party reporting centres in each local authority. However, we recognise that for some victims there remain barriers to reporting hate crime. As we work to develop a new hate crime strategy for Scotland, we will consider how to build on progress made in reducing those barriers to ensure that victims and witnesses have the confidence to report hate crime and feel supported in doing so. It is quite shocking that hate crimes against disabled and the LGBT community have outnumbered and overtaken hate crime of a religious or sectarian nature for the first time in Scottish society, so intolerance seems to be reducing in one area but increasing in another. As Arion Burgess pointed out, those types of crimes are markedly under-reported in those communities. As well as the steps that have been mentioned by the cabinet secretary, what conversations have taken place with Police Scotland and the Crown itself to improve prosecution rights, which surely would act as a true deter to those who seek to abuse those in our disabled and LGBT communities? I agree with Jamie Greene's point, and it is shocking to see the answers in particular against those with disabilities. We recognise, of course, that not all incidents of hate crime come to the attention of the police. We are involved both with the police and the Crown Office, not least in relation to the report on implementing the tackling prejudice in building connected communities action plan, which showed encouraging progress in the raising of awareness and encouraging reporting of hate crime, including through the execution of annual public awareness campaigns, which we undertake with partners. As we say, as we work to develop a new hate crime strategy working with the partners that Jamie Greene mentions, we will consider how to build on the progress that is made to tackle the barriers to reporting, including third-party reporting, and to ensure victim support and further confidence. To ask the Scottish Government whether it will provide an update on the review by the Police Service of Northern Ireland into findings by a tribunal of a sexist culture in Police Scotland. To quote the chief constable, misogyny, sexism and discrimination of any kind are deplorable. They should have no place in society and no place in policing. I welcome the independent report commissioned by the chief constable and carried out by the Police Service of Northern Ireland. I fully support the review's findings and recommendations. I expect to see Police Scotland demonstrate progress towards the implementation of those recommendations and again to quote from the chief constable to lead a change that improves the experiences of all women, enabling and supporting those who speak up to be heard without fear of detriment or victimisation. Daniel Johnson. I thank the cabinet secretary for that response and I welcome the fact that the report is now published, but the facts are these. A promising young female officer was bullied out of the force. Damages of over £1 million were awarded and an acting inspector is being investigated for perjury, and yet this report merely recommends a review of recruitment into firearms, training on standards and a refresher of course on diversity. Is recommending diversity training in a response to serious issues like this not the very definition of tokenism? That this report fails to offer any insight or recommendation on organisational procedural reform, I find incomprehensible. That the conduct of no other individuals other than those directly involved, given that officers at the most senior levels were aware, I find scandalous. Can I ask the cabinet secretary these things? Can we put an end to this practice of the police investigating themselves, in line with Dame Eilish Angelini's recommendations into her report into police complaints? Will the cabinet secretary write to the SPA chair and the chief constable asking to reject this report so that he undertakes a robust and comprehensive examination? That is not a brief question, Mr Johnson. Will he meet me, Ronan Malone and Richard Crainer, who first brought this to my attention, so that he can examine the issues directly himself? I have already stated that I support the recommendations made by the police and I do not see them as being as trivial as Daniel Johnson suggests. I think that the route of this is in the training and the culture within Police Scotland and the recommendations made not by Police Scotland but by the Northern Ireland Police Service is to tackle that by training and a number of other measures as well. I do appreciate that it has just been published and there is room for further discussion. I am happy to discuss that further with Daniel Johnson. He will take some advice as to meeting with others that he has mentioned, but I am happy to discuss it with him. To see what else is possible, I will be meeting after this and after the statement that I am about to make with Police Scotland and the SPA. I am sure that that will be a matter of discussion at that time as well. I ask the cabinet secretary what steps the Scottish Government is taking to drive forward meaningful improvement and strengthen public confidence in the police. We are committed to supporting the changes that the chief constable has committed to leading so that Scotland's citizens and communities have that trust and confidence in the policing system and the structures that underpin it, which of course have been impacted by the example that has been given already. Working with partners following the publication of Dame Eilish Angelini's review, significant steps have already been taken towards achieving that. On 24 May, a public consultation was launched to seek views on 34 of her recommendations that would require possibly legislative changes. That consultation runs for 12 weeks. We will continue to engage with partners and interested parties on those important matters so that we can further improve transparency and strengthen public confidence in the police. I spoke with Ronan Malone and other female officers who have suffered from Police Scotland's sexist culture. Take Karen Harper, a brave whistleblower, forced from her job due to sexist bullying, but still fighting for answers after seven damaging years. She says that there is a chasm between Police Scotland's rhetoric and their actions. As Daniel Johnson has already asked, would the cabinet secretary be willing to meet with her and any other woman who fears this PSNI report may not change anything? I have substantially responded to the points in relation to the question raised by Daniel Johnson, but I would say the same to Russell Finlay. I am happy to meet him. I do not know the priorities of meeting with somebody else that may have a current case against Police Scotland. I am willing to look into that and come back to the member if that is possible to do that. I agree with the point about rhetoric and making sure that that is reflected in reality. However, I have faith that the senior management team at Police Scotland is committed to this, whether it is through the report produced by Police Service of Northern Ireland or through the recommendations of Dame Elish Angiolini's review. They are committed to driving out those behaviours and I want to support them in doing that. If, after discussions with both Daniel Johnson and Russell Finlay, there are further suggestions, I am happy to take those to Police Scotland. I welcome the comments from the cabinet secretary about creating a culture in Police Scotland where men and women can speak up and be heard. However, we can see that there are many instances in which the public interest has been affected by the detriment. Does he agree that the time has come for us to consider the case for an independent office of the whistleblower in Scotland to deal with all those issues in an appropriate way? I think that we have before us already a substantial body of work that looks at complaints against the police. I think that that is the way that we should address that. Maybe other suggestions are taken into account at the same time. However, I am already aware of the fact about how complex the landscape looks in terms of the different players involved in looking at the police, the inspectorate of police, the police authority, the perk. There are a lot of people involved in doing this. I think that what we have to ensure is first of all that the public understands what that landscape is, the quickest, easiest and most straightforward way to make complaints. However, the police officers themselves have a right to expect that it is a simplified process that they can understand. That is what we are aiming for. Of course, we are willing to listen to any suggestions in addition to that. To ask the Scottish Government what support and advice is available to veterans in appealing to the upper, times we know, for Scotland regarding work pensions. Both the work pension scheme and the armed forces compensation scheme are reserved to the UK Government. The upper tribunal administered of appeals chamber is also reserved and is administered by HM courts and tribunal service. However, we understand that Legion Scotland offer advice and support to veterans pursuing those claims. Veterans may also be eligible for financial assistance with their appeal through legal aid. Additionally, the veterans welfare service, which is part of MOD's veterans UK, offer support to anyone claiming a work pension. Bob Doris. I thank the cabinet secretary for that answer. I am indeed aware of the excellent advice and support that organisations such as Legion Scotland and others offer military veterans to access their entitlements, including work pensions. However, once any appeals process for work pensions reaches the upper tribunal for Scotland, appeals will only be made on points of law. That is the second stitch that I am in with a significant advice gap. Such legal advice is not able to be offered by support organisations and my constitution is unable to claim legal aid. Will the cabinet secretary review the advice and support available in Scotland, perhaps in partnership with his colleagues at the UK Government, given the reserved aspects of much of this, to see what steps can be taken to plug what is certainly from my constitution the case and advice gap? As I have said, work pensions are wholly reserved and the appeals process is independent. Any changes to associated support are a matter for the Secretary of State for Defence, but as Bob Doris is hinting, there are substantial controversies around the administration of these schemes, whether it is in terms of pensions or compensations currently at Westminster. In regard to legal aid, in order to target funding appropriately, applications are subject to statutory tests that cover the merits of the case and the means available to the applicant. Scottish ministers are not involved in the decision-making process, but there are resources available that may be able to assist with advice for Bob Doris's constituents such as the local citizens advice bureau, the Scottish legal aid board and the Law Society of Scotland are also able to provide assistance in finding advice providers. To ask the Scottish Government how it will ensure fair access to justice in light of its recent resource spending review, reportedly freezing legal aid spending for the next five years. The legal aid fund is not frozen. The legal aid budget in Scotland is demand-led, and all those who meet the eligibility criteria will have access to legal aid. We will continue to work with justice organisations to develop and to coordinate their delivery plans in response to the high-level spending review allocations, including public bodies such as the Scottish legal aid board. In this financial year, we have increased the legal aid budget by £13.9 million, which is 10 per cent. We have also made an investment of £1 million over two years in the future of the legal profession. We are working in partnership with the Law Society of Scotland to deliver a new legal aid traineeship scheme, which is the first of its kind in Scotland. The impact of the announcement budget freeze will paralyse the justice system, which is already struggling. The weight of the code backlog from the Covid period is already harming access to justice, and that will only threaten any recovery. In recent months, people across the Lothian region have been caught up in a mixture of code backlogs and industrial action from the legal profession in protest at frozen pay. Delayed justice, strike action and people across Scotland start without access to legal representation. Is this the reality of the Scottish Government's new vision for justice? I do not agree with the assessment that the member has set out there. The spending review obviously sets out a high-level multi-year spending parameters. It is not a budget, so the annual budget will continue to be set through the normal parliamentary budgeting process. The member mentioned the backlog. Of course, the Government has invested substantial amounts of funding into reducing the backlog. In terms of legal aid practitioners, in addition to the increase in the legal aid budget this year, we have recently offered 7.5 per cent uplift in criminal fees and 5 per cent for civil fees. That has been rejected by the profession. However, we will endeavour to continue those negotiations in order to find a solution that is also affordable. We can all agree that fair access to justice is vital and important. I welcome the £13.9 million investment that the minister has outlined. Can I ask the minister how the legal aid system in Scotland compares to other jurisdictions in Europe in terms of school access and eligibility? An independent review of legal aid, which was published in 2018, found that Scotland had a generous system of legal aid by international standards, that it had wide scope and no cash limit. Despite significant financial pressures, the legal aid system in Scotland is one of the leading jurisdictions in Europe. That is in terms of scope, eligibility and cost, with 75 per cent of people financially eligible to some form of civil legal aid assistance. That is in contrast to England and Wales, where it is just 25 per cent. There, there have been cuts to scope that have left many areas of civil law such as family, housing and immigration, largely out of scope. The minister will have seen Lindsay Barber's powerful video setting out why she is leaving the criminal defence system. She says that it is at a breaking point. Has the minister done an assessment on the impact on victims if the system does break? Since 2019, the Scottish Government has increased legal aid fees by 8 per cent. There is another 5 per cent that was committed earlier this year. That is a one-off payment. That is a year-on-year commitment of 13 per cent. Of course, that must be set against the backdrop that we currently have at the moment of difficult public finances. That demonstrates that this Government does value legal aid practitioners and we are investing in that. I will give the chamber my assurance that myself and the cabinet secretary will continue to engage with representatives of the profession to try to find a sustainable way forward. To ask the Scottish Government whether it will provide an update on police-pay negotiations. The police negotiating board process is on-going in relation to police officer pay for 2223. In line with police negotiating board protocols, it is not appropriate for me to comment on that. The Scottish Government is involved in officer pay negotiations alongside the Scottish Police Authority and Police Scotland as part of the PNB official side. Police staff pay is negotiated under a separate process to officer pay. It is a matter for the SPA and Police Scotland in consultation with trade unions at their joint national consultative committee. Jeremy Balfour. Deputy Presiding Officer, SNP Government has broken its manifesto promise to protect the police budget in real terms. It will be hard-working police who pay the price. I have a freedom of information request, which shows that last year's police-pay settlement crossed Police Scotland £14.5 million. That is less than the £20 million that the SNP Government is proposing to spend on another independence referendum. Cabinet Secretary, would you rather the SNP Government spend £20 million on police pay on another referendum that Scotland does not want? I say that Jeremy Balfour is factually incorrect. Unless he has the ability to foresee what the budget is going to be, we have not broken any commitment, but not let the fact get in the way of a headline. I would also say that the budget increase, the wage increase that police officers in Scotland had last year, was an increase of more than 2 per cent. What did they get from the Tories? Zero. Nothing in England and Wales. Zero increase. That is the way that the Tories treat police officers. It is also true that Jeremy Balfour should realise that the budget that we receive is 5.2 per cent down this year. 5.2 per cent down, cut from the Conservatives. I know that they do not like to hear it, but the Tories cut the budget in Scotland by 5.2 per cent. At the same time, as their economic mismanagement of the economy has led to 9.1 per cent inflation, they are the cause of problems for all sorts of public sector workers across the country. We will continue to do as much as we can for the police and have a very good record. For example, a police officer starting in Scotland over £26,000, one starting under Tory England in Wales, is £21,000. That is the way that we are looking after the police. To ask the Scottish Government how it will raise awareness of the water safety action plan ahead of the summer to ensure that people stay safe in and around Scotland's waters. The member has chosen an apt moment to raise this issue, as we are in the Royal Lifesaving Society's drowning prevention week this week. I convened a further meeting with our water safety action plan stakeholders, including the Royal Lifesaving Society, on 18 May. Plans to raise awareness of water safety issues in advance of the summer were discussed there at some length. The discussion covered activities on several fronts, including on-going work with Water Safety Scotland to raise awareness about staying safe around the water, to identify drowning hotspots and to improve water safety signage and also messaging. As the minister states, this is drowning awareness week 2022. It is one of the largest summer water safety campaigns across the UK, which is a great opportunity for organisations to educate the public to enjoy water safety. What impact the £60,000 funding grant for water safety Scotland in March has had on organisations with an interest in water safety? The Scottish Government provides annual funding to enable the Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents or ROSPA to deliver an effective programme of home and water safety activity for Scotland. This year's total of nearly £180,000 includes an additional £60,000, and that is purely to better enable ROSPA to expand the support provided to Water Safety Scotland, which is the key forum for relevant organisations to come together to share knowledge and also learning and to reinforce each other's efforts. It will enable Water Safety Scotland to develop its pivotal leadership and management role to ensure support for all organisations in its growing membership and to fully support the diverse workstreams associated with the delivery of Scotland's drowning prevention strategy and of the water safety action plan. So, once the specific example is enabled— Minister, I'm going to have to stop you there to get question number eight in from Emma Harper, who joins us remotely. Thank you, Presiding Officer. To ask the Scottish Government when it last discussed the international transfer of prisoners to Scotland with the UK Government. Cabinet Secretary. The Ministry of Justice negotiates prison transfer agreements on behalf of the UK taking into consideration the views of the devolved administrations. The MOJ has recently shared proposed amendments to the additional protocol to the convention on the transfer of sentenced persons, which is intended to improve prisoner transfers between the UK and Council of Europe member states. I'm currently considering those amendments. Emma Harper. Thank you, Cabinet Secretary for that response. My constituent son is a UK citizen and is currently in prison in Boston in the United States. His son has severe mental health issues and has made four applications to the international prisoner transfer scheme to be brought to Scotland. My office has been liaising with the prison, the UK Council and the US Department of Connections. We have previously been told that it is unlikely that his application will be successful despite him meeting all the criteria. Given that, will the cabinet secretary undertake to raise this case with the UK foreign office to see if any further action can be taken to bring him home to Scotland, he will have access to his family and where he will receive the best possible treatment? If she wants to write to me with the details, it may be something that I could raise with the UK Government. Very grateful, Cabinet Secretary. That concludes portfolio questions on justice and veterans. We move now to the second portfolio, finance and the economy. Again, if members wish to ask supplementary, I invite them to press the request-to-speak buttons. I place an R in the chat function during the relevant question, and I call question number one from Ruth Maguire, who joins us remotely. I ask the Scottish Government what its latest assessment is of the impact of Brexit on Scotland's economy. We know that Brexit is contributing to the 19th consecutive monthly rise in prices charged by businesses in Scotland and causing UK food prices to increase by over 6 per cent, hitting the poorest families hardest. According to the OECD next year, the UK will have the slowest growth in the G20, apart from Russia and the OBR forecasts that Brexit will hurt productivity growth by twice as much as the pandemic in the long run. Since 2019, goods exports fell 20 per cent, largely driven by a decline in oil and gas exports, amounting to trade in goods with the EU of 16 per cent, where it has trade with non-EU countries dropped to only 4 per cent. That said, Scotland's exports are still outperforming the UK and excluding oil and gas exports to all countries in Scotland from Scotland. Last year, we were down 1 per cent compared to a fall of 8 per cent for the UK as a whole. However, even if Scotland tries to cope with the fallout of a reckless hard Brexit, the UK Government is risking a trade war with the EU over the Northern Ireland protocol. Thank the minister for that answer. It's a significant concern that Brexit continues to harm Scotland's economy, a persistent reminder of the on-going cost that Scotland is paying for Westminster mismanagement. Last week, the Scottish Government published an analysis paper that showed that the status quo is not allowing Scotland to fulfil our full potential and that the UK economic model and Westminster decision making are holding us back. In the minister's say any more about how, with full control over economic powers, we would be better placed to realise Scotland's full economic potential. The paper published by the Scottish Government last week shows how comparable European countries frequently achieve better outcomes than the UK, often significantly better, on a range of measures, including GDP per capita, inequality, poverty, business investment and productivity. Compared to those countries, many of them are smaller or similarly sized to Scotland. Scotland under Westminster control is being held back. The damage caused by Brexit will result in Scotland finding it ever harder to achieve that potential. However, with the full powers of an independent country, we can, of course, deliver more. Scotland is blessed with an abundance of resources that, in many cases, the comparator countries lack. If all of those countries can use the powers of independence to create wealthier and fairer societies, then why not Scotland with our vast energy resources? A globally recognised record of innovation, invention and learning, an exceptional food and drink industry, stunning natural heritage, strengths and advanced engineering and cutting-edge industries of the future and, above all, the talent and potential of our people. Independence will put the levers that determine success into our own hands. Just like those other countries will fill the vast potential that we have and build the wealthier, fairer, happier country that we know is possible. We are going to get through the questions and the answers that are going to have to be significantly shorter. 2. David Torrin To ask the Scottish Government what action it has taken to support the economy in Fife. Our national strategy for economic transformation contains a specific action to realise the potential of the different economic and community assets and strengths of Scotland regions. The delivery plans for the strategy's programmes will take full account of different regional circumstances across the breadth of Scotland, including for Fife. We also support Fife's inclusive economic growth through the Tay cities region deal programme and the Edinburgh and South East Scotland city region deal programme. Fillamore Fife receives funding for the place-based investment programme, the regeneration capital grant fund and the vacant and derelict land fund. 3. David Torrin I thank the minister for that answer. It has been great to see Fife embracing the Scottish Government initiative, developing the young workforce and the national strategy for strengthening links between business and education. Does the minister agree with me that this link between schools and employers to engage, inform and inspire our young people who are providing an instrumental in helping to support our young people to prepare for the world of work in the developing local economies? The young workforce has a strong track record of delivering positive outcomes for young people and employers. I agree that our network of employer-led DUIW regional groups is pivotal for connecting young people with career inspiration and working experience to prepare for the world of work, including Fife, which is championed by DUIW chair Bob Garminy. We delivered our commitment to implementing DUIW school co-ordinators in every mainstream secondary school in Scotland. That additional in-school resource has helped to create an excess of 195,000 young people and employer engagements in 2021-22. In our ambition, I set out in the national strategy for economic transformation to establish Scotland as a world-class entrepreneurial nation. DUIW regional groups are working with Young Enterprise Scotland to increase the number of secondary schools and young people, including those with additional support needs, to participate in their school programmes. Last month's announcement of 30 million dry-dock contract awarded by the United Kingdom Government to Babcock Reside facility will sustain 300 jobs and further benefit the wider Fife economy. Does the minister agree that this illustrates the benefits that Fife and the whole of Scotland derive from continuing membership of the United Kingdom, and that it would be extremely damaging to undermine that relationship? Fife's question is held back by being a member of the United Kingdom. The data on a comparator country shows that. The members really have to have a hard look at themselves and ask those questions. Why is it that those other countries do so much better than Scotland without the natural resources, the talent and the initiatives that we have? Why is it that the UK Government and membership of the UK is holding Scotland back from achieving our potential as demonstrated by those comparator countries? We do not need the backing singers from either side to be lobbing in. Can we have a supplementary question from Willie Rennie? The minister will know that only eight of the 54 turbine jackets for the RNG wind farm in the fourth are being built at methyl. It is a pathetically small number. What are the investment plans for the yard so that this yard is ready to win future orders for more jackets in the next offshore wind farm? The member will be aware that I co-chair the Scottish offshore wind energy council working with the sector very closely to understand what needs to be done to put Scotland's supply chain in a position to competitively win business for the impending scot wind round. He will also be aware that the developer commitments that are part of that have been led by my colleague Michael Matheson, amounting to £25 billion of spend in Scottish content committed by developers taking part in Scotland. A huge amount of work is happening to ensure that Scottish supply chain has the capacity and the capability of working with the sector to take advantage of the opportunities that Scotland and other renewable energy opportunities will bring to the Scottish supply chain. To ask the Scottish Government what steps it is taking to improve pay levels in the Scottish economy in light of the reported findings of the Office for National Statistics that UK annual growth in regular pay excluding bonuses fell by 4.5 per cent after ingesting for inflation. Households and businesses across the country are facing a serious cost of living crisis and where we have responsibility, we are acting and our fair work policy promotes fair work practices including pay. Scotland has proportionally five times more accredited living wage employers and on average public sector wages are 7 per cent higher here than the rest of the UK. We have continued to provide fair and affordable pay awards in contrast to a pay freeze in 2021-22 for most public sector workers in England, for instance. The 2022-23 public sector pay policy targets the lowest paid introducing a new Scottish public sector wage floor of £10.50 per hour, representing a 10.5 per cent increase on this year's national minimum wage. Latest findings from the ONS reveal that average wages in the UK are falling at the fastest rate for more than two decades. Last week, the First Minister told Parliament and I quote, I want all public sector workers to get the fairest possible pay increases, particularly at this time of soaring inflation. Yet the Scottish Government's pay policy is pitting different areas of the public sector against one another. It is clear that it is no longer fit for purpose, so can the Minister outline what urgent action is being taken by the Scottish Government to support all public sector workers through the cost of living emergency? I think that the member may have heard the answer from Keith Brown earlier on, explaining how the Scottish budget does not take into account inflation that were allocated by the UK Government. Yet, understandably, workers across the Scottish economy are looking for inflation to be reflected in their pay negotiations, so they cannot square those two positions. The member mentioned UK figures, and that is ultimately the responsibility of the UK Government, which is more interested in going to war with the trade unions at the moment to appeal to their base vote than sorting out the many serious situations that workers across not just Scotland but the whole of the UK face. I have outlined how the Scottish Government has adopted a very progressive public pay policy compared to other parts of the UK. We will continue to keep that under review, but we need the UK Government's support and the Scottish budget to reflect the challenges that we are facing from inflation. To ask the Scottish Government whether it will provide an update on how much it is allocating in its budget for infrastructure plans. The Scottish Government's capital budget for this year provides over £6.4 billion of capital investment, and all future final spending commitments will, of course, be outlined in the annual budget process in the usual way. I thank the cabinet secretary for the answer. The SNP Government has admitted that they will not be able to fulfil all of their infrastructure plans, despite the promises to dual roads such as the A9 and A96, which are essential upgrades for local residents and businesses. The SNP has mismanaged the economy and has wasted obscene amounts of Scottish taxpayer money. We are all familiar with the £250 million spent on ferries that will not sail. Here in Edinburgh, we have £12.2 million spent so far on the hardy tram inquiry, with no date yet for its publication. It is little wonder that it has any money left for essential infrastructure upgrades. How can the SNP justify cuts to infrastructure projects critical to economic recovery when they continue to preside over such waste and overspending that has yet to deliver anything for Scotland? I wonder if she could answer the question as to who has presided over the slowest economic growth in the G20 bar Russia over the coming years, or who has presided over the highest levels of inflation in the G7 right now. I think that she will find that it is a lot closer to home. When it comes to our capital budget, we have received a lower than expected capital settlement from the UK Government during its spending view—£15.8 billion compared to £16.6 billion over the next few years. That clearly reduces the capital funding envelope. Despite that, we have outlined our targeted investments over the next few years, which we are committed to delivering. A number of supplementaries will try to get through as many as possible, but they will need to be brief, as, indeed, were the responses. Thank you, Presiding Officer. Cabinet Secretary, advise what impact the UK Government's cut of 9.7 per cent to this Parliament's capital budget in the current financial year is having on Scottish Government's investment in infrastructure at a time of rocketing inflation. Rocketing inflation is again presided over by the Conservatives right now, but, in the constrained envelope of capital that we have received, which puts significant pressure on our capital programme, we have still continued to invest, knowing that, ultimately, investing in construction and infrastructure is one way to manage the economic outlook at a hugely challenging time. Last week, Liz Cameron, CEO of the Scottish Chamber of Commerce, said that the Scottish Government should honour the commitment that the A96 is duelled from start to finish, yet the A96 corridor of view only references duelling from Inverness to Nairn. The consultation, which closed on 10 June, over 100 questions, not one mentioned duelling between Huntley and Aberdeen. Cabinet Secretary, will the Government honour its promise, made over a decade ago, to fully dual the A96 from start to finish, or betray the north-east yet again? Well, as somebody who is regularly driving on the A96 and the A9, we are committed to improving the transport infrastructure throughout Scotland. The revised capital spending plan that I have just mentioned includes £1.9 billion of investment in motorways and trunk road, and we are absolutely committed to completing the duelling of the A9, which I know was not the specific question that he asked, but also to fully dual the A96 between Aberdeen and Inverness. Obviously, we have agreed to conduct a transparent evidence-based review of that programme. That is under way, and it will report by the end of 2022. My last comment, Presiding Officer, is that we could do those things a lot faster if we had more capital funding and it was not being cut at every budget. Apologies to those who have not been able to get to supplementary questions, Presiding Officer. To ask the Scottish Government how its resource spending review publication, Investing in Scotland's future, will ensure that children and young people's rights to food, education and fun will be met. Well, the resource spending review outlines how we will focus public spending in the coming years, including delivering on our investment in education and skills. That is where the funding comes from for early learning and childcare, play opportunities, education and so on. We will continue to deliver the measures that we have set out. Quite clearly, that will be updated next year's budget. I thank the cabinet secretary for her response. At the weekend, Rose Foyer, general secretary of the STUC, said, that child hunger is a political choice. We need to see the political will to fix it. Can the cabinet secretary give any further indication of the level of investment being made available to expand access to universal free school meals for P6s and P7 pupils and into secondary schools, because child hunger and child poverty does not stop at the gates of primary schools? The member is right to quote the STUC and also to make the point that she has just made. She will obviously be aware of the fact that pupils in primary 1 to 5 and those in special schools already benefit from the offer of universal free school lunches during term time, as well as there being investment in holiday food provision as well. We have set out our commitment to expand free school meals further, and that will be updated in next year's budget in terms of our commitment for next year. Supplementary from Ruth Maguire joins us online. Thank you, Presiding Officer. Can the cabinet secretary provide any further information about how measures to reduce the cost of the school day will be supported by investment presented in the resource vending review? It is right that, alongside the provision of free school meals, we are also investing significantly in reducing the cost of the school day and including supporting families with children in them. That includes funding for school clothing grant, it includes removing curriculum charges, it includes free music tuition to name just a few, and there are other policies that have been allocated resources in this year's budget, and that will continue next year. To ask the Scottish Government how the reported proposed real-terms cuts to the budget of Audit Scotland could impact on its work. Of course, as the member should know, although his question suggests that he might not, the Scottish Government has no role in setting the level of Audit Scotland's funding from the Scottish budget, which is agreed directly with this Parliament and Audit Scotland's funding for next year, and future years will be set in that normal way through the annual budgeting process. However, the Scottish Government's spending review, which was published just two weeks ago, delivers an indicative £1 million real terms cut in the budget of Audit Scotland, but perhaps even more concerning than that are the reported comments in the media from senior SNP figures about, and I quote, clipping the wings of Audit Scotland. One source has quoted the saying that Audit Scotland has become too powerful. That has been talked about in government for years now. It would be atrocious if this Government tried to emasculate the very body that is doing such an effective job of shining a light on its failures. Would the cabinet secretary not agree that we need to be strengthening Audit Scotland, not trying to cut it back? What is atrocious is deliberate misleading on the facts. You do not need to listen to my words on this. Listen to the Audit Scotland spokesperson, who said that our costs are met through a balance of the funding that we receive from the Scottish Parliament as well as audit fees. Let us not let facts get in the way of a good headline, but the facts are pretty clear. It is the Parliament that sets the budget, not the Government. Supplementary, Daniel Johnson, but shorter than your last supplementary, Mr Johnson. A further 7 per cent cut would take the total cuts since 2006 to 25 per cent. If that is the level of cut that it receives, does the cabinet secretary expect Audit Scotland's quality of audits to go up or down? Here we go with another misleading of the facts. Audit Scotland is independently funded through the Scottish Parliament and the audit fees that public bodies pay for it. The Audit Scotland budget for next year will be set in exactly the same way that it has been set for years through the annual budgeting process, which is that Audit Scotland indicates the funding that it needs with the Parliament and the Scottish Government accommodates that within the budget. Those are the facts. 7. Steven Kerr Thank you. To ask the Scottish Government what its response is to the report published by Reform Scotland describing the Scottish National Investment Bank as, quote, unfocused and ill-conceived, having a, quote, strategic deficiency, unquote, and recommending that the bank be, quote, reset. I'm assuming that the member is referring to the report that also states that the bank is exactly the kind of big, ambitious policy experiment that Hollywood should be embarking on. To date, the bank has delivered investment commitments of over £200 million to 16 projects across all three of its missions, despite being within the first 18 months of having been established. 7. Steven Kerr There are selective quotes, and there are selective quotes. That's an incredible selective quote. It's all a bit messy, say, Reform Scotland. The bank has 81 priorities set for it by ministers. Now, how it's possible to have 81 priorities is completely beyond me. Given the Scottish Government has anything but a stellar record when it comes to industrial strategy—trains, airport, smelter, fabrication yard, green jobs and ferries—come to mind, can the cabinet secretary agree that the best thing that the SNP Scottish Government could do is to accept when it comes to those things it's out of its depth and just let the bank get on with setting its own priorities? In actual fact, our views are probably not too dissimilar, because the bank is operationally independent. Ironically, every time a member in this Parliament does not like what the bank has done, they come and ask me what I'm going to do about it. What I'm going to do is allow the bank to continue to make its investments according to the three missions that I think were agreed on a cross-party basis—it's mission in net zero, in place and in innovation. It's made investments according to those missions, despite essentially being a start-up. We have seen money going out the door, there's a pipeline of investable propositions and I think that the bank has done a remarkable job in its first two years. I'm very brief supplementary Evelyn Tweedie. Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. As the cabinet secretary has indicated, Reform Scotland reports notes that the Scottish National Bank is exactly the kind of big, ambitious policy experiment that Holyrood should be embarking on. Does the cabinet secretary agree with me that Opposition members could do with sharing in this ambition to realise Scotland's economic potential and wake up to the fact that we could do so much more to develop our economy with the powers of a normal, independent country? There are regular headlines in Scotland's economic performance that demonstrate that we're attracting investment, we're making progress and we're ensuring that there is long-term economic growth. We have already seen how small countries that are very similar in nature to Scotland like Sweden, Ireland, Denmark and Finland use their powers of investment independence to achieve economic success. We could do the same. Question 8, Pauline McNeill. To ask the Scottish Government what its response is to report that any real-term cuts in its budget may impact most in courts and prosecution service. We continue to deliver reform across the justice system, responding to the needs of individuals, making more than £50 million available annually for recovery and reform. In this current financial year, we've increased the resource budget for both the courts and the tribunal service and the Crown Office. However, as the member will know, we can only allocate the funding that current forecasts determine we will receive. We are currently contending with a 5.2 per cent real terms reduction to this year's budget, and the SFC analysis demonstrates that our total funding is expected to be 1 per cent lower again in real terms for the next three years. Reports suggest that the courts and the prosecution service will bear the brunt of public sector drop cuts after the announcement of our real terms budget cut that the Biden Secretary has previously mentioned. However, that is despite the fact that the justice system is already struggling to deal with the effect of the pandemic, and she will be aware that the backlog is 40,000 cases plus affecting victims in particular. Alan Simpson, the national officer for the FDA trade union, represents staff at the current office, said that there is no fat to cut, and staff are already working at maximum capacity. As the cabinet secretary, I believe that it is on record that we may lose up to 17,000 full-time jobs. How many jobs does the cabinet secretary expect to lose in the justice sector with cuts of this level? With the investment of additional £50 million in 2021-22 to support dealing with the backlog, as well as funding this year of a further £53.2 million, we are doing all that we can through funding and other means, led by my colleague Keith Brown, to reduce the backlog and to ensure that we get back to where we are. We have also extended funding to remote jury centres for an additional three months to support the transition back to juries in court. I think that we are all agreed that dealing with the Covid backlog is critically important, and obviously we will update the budget when it comes to next year's budget in line with the normal processes. That concludes portfolio questions, and there will be a brief pause before we move to the next item of business.


The golden age of UX design is over. Let's talk about that. UX design has been around for a while and things are changing. New job titles are coming up every week and every month, and companies are starting to look for more and more specific types of designers. In this excerpt, in this little snippet from a podcast called the Product Breakfast Club, this is the AJ & Smart Podcast, I'm going to tell you all about how to future-proof your design career for the next few years. Now, this is not really a video, so it's just going to be an audio file, so you can kind of turn it on and play it in the background. Everything here is coming from the Product Breakfast Club podcast. We're posting a couple of the most interesting bits of it on YouTube here. Okay, I don't want to waste any more of your time. I hope you enjoy this. So, basically, I'm basing this on an article I wrote a few months back called The Golden Age of UX is Over, and I know that's a pretty clickbaity title.  I have fun with that. When I started off as a designer back in about 2009, the whole concept about UX, the whole concept of UI, the whole thing about like mobile apps, all of this kind of thing was just in its absolute infancy. So, it was really not something well known. The demand was low, the supply was extremely low. There wasn't a lot of people looking for UX designers. There also wasn't really a lot of people who were considered to be UX designers. There were, at that point, web designers or graphic designers. When I started AJ & Smart, the company that I run, in 2011, we called ourselves a UX design agency, and this was more like a fluke. Myself and my co-founder had started calling ourselves UX designers a couple of months prior to that, but to be honest, we had no idea if this whole UX thing was going to be like a trend, or whether it was going to be something that would actually help us out, and we kind of hit gold. Basically, the whole UX thing exploded thanks to basically the mobile revolution, and the whole, basically, thank you, Apple and Google for kicking that whole thing off. The supply remained pretty low. There weren't a lot of UX designers, and the demand was crazy. We were getting work everywhere. We were able to charge pretty ludicrous prices because of the high demand. The way I would think about it, we would just walk into the room, and we were kind of like the kings of the product team, the kings and the queens of the product team.  If you're having a conversation about conversion rate, does it matter? I'm the UX designer. Something about the user, and everyone would have to shut up, and we kind of own the place, which is kind of funny, and it was good fun, and I'm really glad I got to experience that. We had way too much power. Let me just tell you that, way too much power for people in a role that didn't really understand the bigger picture of making products. And as a UX designer, our focus, especially if I just talk from my perspective, the focus was really on the user, the user experience. How do we make this as beautiful and seamless and frictionless as possible for the user? So we really, really focused in on that. And I'm calling this era, so from about 2010 to about 2017, you could even say today maybe, I'm just calling this era the golden age of UX. And this was the time where you could be a UX designer, you could pretty much do anything you want, no one was checking anything. As long as you could finish any sentence with the user, you pretty much, people listen to you and people did what you wanted, and not a lot was being measured. Problem is, it's now six years later, and high quality UX and UI design are commodities. Every company in the world has like this table stakes level of UX design. These big companies that we had to convince before the UX was important, they don't need to be convinced anymore. They understand that they need a good baseline. Now, I know a couple of you listening will be working at really, really old companies and just roll your eyes and say, excuse me, I still have this problem at my company, but I'm talking about most, right? I'm not trying to get every edge case here. The main stream view is that UX is important and that having a good user experience is good for the business. So we no longer have to explain this to clients, right? We don't have to have this conversation anymore. So your clients and companies and customers and superiors in your company, they kind of get it. The problem with that is they also expect a base level of goodness when it comes to UX design. And it's really, really getting easier than ever to reach that baseline. So this good enough is easier than ever to achieve. If I think about a UX designer today coming out of college, compared to what I was like when I came out of college, I would say the UX designer today coming out of college, if they came out of college seven years ago, with the knowledge that they had now, they would immediately be a senior. So if I think when I was a senior, I was a senior maybe like six, seven years ago already, yeah. I didn't know as much as the people coming out of college today because they also have access to some amazing tools, amazing patterns, amazing libraries and information and YouTube.  So if I really think about it, like the juniors of today, they do have the skills of the seniors of, you know, about 10 years ago, which is very interesting for the market. So it's absolutely easier than ever to reach this good enough level. Any UX designer coming out today can build an app that's going to be relatively easy to use if they are good enough, right? The problem is now that the supply has reached the level of the demand pretty much, it's good enough, it's so easy to achieve that good enough is not enough if you want to be a designer with a career that's going to span longer than, I don't know, a few months or if you don't want to be commoditized. The thing is it's not enough to understand the user anymore. You actually need to understand the business, the business behind the product that you're working on or the business behind the design that you're doing. So during the golden age of UX, designers were given a free pass on understanding how businesses worked and they didn't really need to know it, right? They could just get away with anything because the user because the user was all important and anything that got in the way of having the best user experience was considered to be detrimental to the success of the product. That was just from the designer's perspective. But now that usability, beautiful UI, lovely animations are already expected. It's really easy for the UX designer who had their amazing run over the last few years. It's going to happen that they get pushed down into a more production role if they're only focused on the basics of UX. Now, when I say UX designer, you could just as easily change that with product designer, which seems to be what the name is changing to right now in Silicon Valley. So UX designer, product designer, you could almost say those are interchangeable right now. But essentially the problem here is that if you are a designer and if you are focusing heavily on the user side of the story, you've got a couple of blind spots. And I think that what I want to tell you for the rest of this episode are a couple of things that you can do. And if you're hiring, by the way, these are a couple of things you should be looking for. Or if you already have designers, these are a couple of things you could be telling them or talking to them about. So there's a couple of things that I think you need to understand. So number one is understanding product strategy. So how does the product you're working on connect with the other products and services within your company? Why is your company even building it? Like why does your company want to make this product? Is it just a data collector? Is it even important to the core business? Is it a side project? Is it something just to make people within the current team you're working on look good to a stakeholder? What is the strategy behind building the product you're working on? And what's also the big picture? And I think that it's really extremely important to understand product strategy. When you're making your design decisions, it is good to know why it is the company wants to even build this product in the first place. Now, I'm not going to go into all the intricacies of product strategy and how to actually get good at that. I'm just going to give you a couple of recommendations on what to read and what to check out.  This is a nine minute read on medium. It breaks down product strategy every single step possible, really easy to understand and uses Tesla as an example. I think it's a great read. It's a primer to strategy in layman's terms. You definitely should check this one out. Now, I would follow that up with a couple of case studies. And the case studies I would look at are all written by the same guy, a guy called MG Siegler. He also used to work at GV with Jake. And he wrote three articles, the Leviathan, the Squid, and the Whale. And that looks at big picture strategies for Tesla, Netflix, and Amazon. I would definitely read into those because I think understanding product strategy and understanding general strategy is an absolute competitive advantage to any designer, especially because the point is you want to be able to speak the language of the people you're working for, right? You don't want to be the guy talking about personas, talking about user flows, talking about all of this stuff when they're trying to talk about something maybe related to the big picture strategy and you're getting too specific. So understanding the strategy, understanding what product strategy is and how to talk about it is a fantastic way to speak the language of the people you're working for and, in general, just make yourself more valuable in the company. And you can say that about everything else I'm going to tell you here. So it's three things. And the first is understanding strategy, especially understanding product strategy. The next thing, and it's extremely important, is understanding growth. I think it really doesn't really matter what you're working on. Growth is going to be a core metric for every single thing pretty much every company makes. Just understanding it, growth is a metric. It could be anything from activation, engagement, re-engagement. These are things that your customers or your product managers, when they're building a product, they're going to be heavily thinking about growth metrics and how to measure them. If you don't understand how growth works and what growth means for companies, and if you don't understand a couple of case studies about growth, especially from a product perspective, you've really got a blind spot. It's extremely useful to understand what growth means in terms of building digital products, if you're building digital products. It's important to know what growth means in terms of how companies run, because growth is a core metric for almost every product. If you look at Facebook, if you look at Google, it really doesn't matter everything they make. They are measuring a lot of this stuff with growth. Now, if you want to learn about that the fastest way possible, I would recommend reading Hacking Growth by Sean Ellis. This is a fantastic book. And even if you just read the first hour and a half of this book, you're already going to get some amazing case studies, some amazing ideas. And you know what? I'm not joking. This book has helped me become a better product designer just in terms of how Sean talks about creating these experiments. And I think it's just a fantastic way to understand why are products being built, taking that from the strategy as well. But also, how can you as a designer help the teams with their growth metrics? How can you help them also grow? And that's definitely a big one. The third step, and I think maybe the final one for this episode is going to be understanding marketing and awareness, awareness maybe called brand. And this is something that designers often hate. Like if there are two departments that I see fighting all the time, it's product designers and the marketing department because one of the biggest reasons is that they just don't understand each other. So the marketing department is often confused about how to explain what the product does. And the product team is pissed that the marketing team has explained it in that specific way. And one of the reasons there are so many misunderstandings is just because the product designers don't understand how to speak to the marketers, or to the marketers. And just understanding the vocabulary once again is something that can really get rid of this problem. And just also understanding how marketing works on a basic level will also help you, especially if you're thinking about designing a product. What are the entry points to the product in terms of onboarding, in terms of copy? You can give valuable insights into how a product can be marketed if you understand it. Now, I'm not expecting you to become a marketer, but I have a couple of things that you could check out. A lot of product people in Silicon Valley, they check out a thing called Product Marketing for Pirates by Dave McClure. He wrote this.  It also gives you a very simple overview of product marketing, which is probably the marketing you need to understand. But also check out Gary Vaynerchuk. I know a lot of people hate him because he sounds like he's coked up, but just following his Instagram channel or following whatever social media you use, just follow him because you're going to get some really interesting pieces of insight there into how marketing works. And finally, I would say Noah Kagan, he has a great YouTube channel where he goes into marketing strategies. Just again, understanding this, it's super important just to understand it because in the end, as a designer, your real job is to be a creative problem solver. It doesn't matter whether you call yourself a UI designer, UX designer, product designer, I don't care. Your job is a creative problem solver.  So you need to understand the bigger picture of why the product you're working on is being made and where the company thinks it's going. If you don't understand this bigger picture, then you're going to end up being someone more on the production line. And I'm sorry to say that being on the production line is a guaranteed way to have your salary be capped at a certain point or you're also more disposable if you're on the production line because people on the production line are more disposable. If you are, on the other hand, able to give really interesting advice on really interesting solutions, taking into account strategy, growth, and marketing, then you're immediately going to jump to the top of the pile of the normal designer that's on a product team because most designers are really so focused on the user that they end up ignoring the rest of the big picture. Maybe you've heard this in the last few episodes, especially if you listen to the episode with Jason Freed, sometimes it doesn't matter what the user thinks. Sometimes it's about getting something out there and seeing if it has product-market fit, right? Please, as a little bonus, please understand what product-market fit is as well. Being able to off the top of your head talk about that is pretty important as well because if you're building a new product, it needs to have product-market fit, which is it needs to be a must-have for a large addressable audience, a niche market as well. It just needs to be a must-have. Just knowing these things, knowing the lingo, knowing the terminology is super important. And I hope this episode helps a couple of people out, a couple of people who might be wondering how to make themselves more as valuable as a designer. It's too much effort for me to write show notes, so if you want to check all the links for this, just Google the golden age of UX is over. I hope you like this episode and yeah, have a great day. Okay, I hope you enjoyed that little snippet from the podcast. It's from the Product Breakfast Club podcast. You can get it on any podcast app. It's every single Monday morning, myself and Jake Knapp, the author of Sprint. Do let us know in the comments if you have anything to say about it. I really hope you like that. I hope you like this little experiment we're doing with just putting some of that podcast audio on YouTube. Thanks so much. Have a good one.


We demystify what goes on behind the therapy room door. Join us on this voyage of discovery and co-creative conversations. This is The Therapy Show behind closed doors podcast with Bob Cook and Jackie Jones. Welcome back to the next episode of The Therapy Show behind closed doors with the wonderful as always Mr Bob Cook and myself Jackie Jones and what we're going to be talking about in this session is nothing is what it seems in the therapy room. It sounds a bit twilight zone this Bob. Well it's a fascinating subject and I'm sure we'll talk a lot about it and I was just thinking that we could say that about most things in life really is anything what it really seems but as we're talking about it's particularly linked to psychotherapy and what happens in a therapy room. I'll talk about it specifically in that dimension. Well so when we look at it like that what do you think Jackie do you think that there's any anything that's really how will you start this one off I've got my thoughts but well for me I often talk about this with clients and I'm sure I've mentioned it in past podcasts that you know in the therapy room I've got all my baggage and the clients got all their baggage and there's kind of my mum and dad in there and my grandparents are in there literally everybody's in there there's that aspect of it and then also am I being my authentic self in the therapy room and that's up for debate I think. Okay so if we were thinking psychodynamically or if we were thinking transference and transference is the major sort of modality that underpin the psychodynamic theory yeah then we would be and I'm going to use TA language a little bit to put this across we would be coming from a place where both therapists and clients are enacting out their unconscious history or stroke script in the therapy room. Now if we follow that through that both people are enacting out their scripts or their unconscious past in the present in the therapy room aren't we really merely representations of our early history or a question mark that's a very good question yeah you think yeah absolutely if it depends where I am yeah I think if I'm in a good place and my state of mind is quite robust and I'm in my adult then I'm aware of my response and reactions to things if I'm overwhelmed or tired then maybe not so much oh so that that will mean then Jackie which I really agree with by the way we follow especially if we use TA language and for people listening what it means when we say you know in our adult eager state. Eric Byrne who is the originator of TA talked about one way of knowing when we're in our adult eager state is that we're coming when we're coming from adult eager state we're actually presenting the age that we are or think we're leaving the way we are you know so I'm 73 you're I don't know you know but you will be coming from that 73 year old rather than a different place yes yeah just saying that for people who perhaps will want to know what adult eager state means yes that's so what you're saying is when you're coming from your adult eager state and acting thinking and feeling as the age that you are then you will be coming from that age rather than a younger age or a breast age or a place that you might have gone to if you are feeling overwhelmed or triggered from the transference of the client yeah so that leads us to another question which is how do you know or how do we know that we are coming from the adult eager state that we may think we're coming from at that particular time that's a very good question I do we know because I'm sure when we're not we think we are well I know for a fact before my psychotherapy training if somebody had asked me how much are you in adult I would have said 99.9 percent of the time I know without a shadow of a doubt that I was not and I'm not in my adult 99.9 percent of the time no and I think to me it's been present it's been in the moment and in the here and now and responding in two things in that moment rather than reacting if I'm reacting to something emotionally then I'm probably not in my adult eager state okay so just throw that by me again will you say that you said something about two things and I missed it what did you say I've forgotten though probably being in the here and now and being present in the moment that is where I see myself being in my adult if I'm reacting to something as in being emotional then I'm probably not in my adult eager state okay okay I'm clear about what you're saying now now of course one of the ways that we can perhaps I'm saying make sure but at least give us ourselves a fighting challenge that we're coming from adult is that we've done a lot of therapy in ourselves and that we've done a lot of evaluation of our own script and that we've healed a lot of the deficits of the younger parts of ourselves so that we're able to actually stay in the moment or stay present the way you were just talking more of the time yeah I think we've done our own therapy and we can be aware of what could be the triggers back to the past we might be likely to stay out of our script and in present time more yeah what do you think I think for me personally I'm a lot more able to do it if I'm in a good place myself which is you know why I think it's really important as a psychotherapist that we practice self-care and that we we prioritise ourselves okay so that's us talking about us as a talk about the therapist role yeah if we can come from adult or at least the term I'm going to borrow from TA again executive adult yeah yeah at least we are more aware of what time zone we're actually in yeah therapy process see I think that's the most we can do absolutely yeah now we can't legislate where the client is going to come from now if we're doing our job well as a therapist one of the major goals of course will be to facilitate the client to visit their younger self or if we're thinking developmentally much of the trauma will be in the younger self and therefore probably in the therapy room with you they will be going back to a different self often a younger traumatised self yeah so the person in front of us may not be what they seem they are in other words if we think of ego states we're more or less going to be either if we're doing the developmental work I'm talking about meeting their younger self or their unconscious self many years ago or we might bump along or meet their grandfather parent significant other person which has come into the therapy yeah so that's what I mean when I say nothing's what it seems in the therapy process yeah because often the other role of the therapist is to be a what I call a decoder to help decode what the what the client is attempting to tell you but often is unable to tell you because they're not or don't have access to that or ego state at that particular developmental time yeah so this is where I think it gets interesting because if we're a decoder and we're decoding we've got to be really mindful of assumptions and again bringing our past and our history into things if we're reading between the lines potentially we can be quite biased about that absolutely and one golden rule of mine that I've developed as a therapist is as much as I can to move away from assumptions yeah so assumptions take us down the wrong roads usually so as much as I can do that I will and what I nearly always end the transaction up with to the client is if I make a statement or something which you might want to call assumption I'll say is this how you see it yeah I know they I know they can over adapt to that by the way however that's usually how I end up transactions if I'm going to make a statement about what I see reality is that doesn't mean I don't or I'm not aware that they may be adapting but at least I think out of courtesy out of integrity and also what you're talking about to attempt to move away from assumptions that's a good way to end a transaction with the client yeah yeah totally agree to check in or to check out with them that's what I tend to do a lot of the time or just something simple like is this what you mean or is this what you were thinking whatever it is yeah because you have hit on something which is almost vital in psychotherapy or effective psychotherapy I think is to is to and it's very very hard to do but to you know move away the therapist I mean to move away from assumptions yeah now when you I mean decoding yeah what I mean by is decoding their script or the enactment of their script okay they are often to such a young place that they're unable to have the access to their adult their older adult which they need to do to be able to get over to you what the hurt is all about or the trauma or whatever we want to talk about it so I have to check out and say is this is is this true or is this what you're saying to me or could it be this way or tell me a little bit more about that and do that repetitively yeah and sometimes that can take a while depending on where about they are in the ego states because depending on how early it is where they've gone to they might not even be able to put things into words it might just be feelings that they're having as opposed to being able to to put it into words and explain it yes absolutely the further you go down the onion layer or the years yeah you get to usually a younger place where verbal language gets in the way and then we're in the land of what I would call somatic responses yeah have you ever had a situation with a client where they're not sure whether it's a reality or a memory yes yes yes yes many times and what do you say to that oh I well nearly always say let's go with how you see it yeah that's kind of like what I say well I'm a bit more blunt than you Bob as you know I say does it does it matter whether it was reality or or a memory that you've got and if that memory isn't actually correct oh if that's what you're feeling right now then that's okay yeah absolutely see what you're talking about is false memories yeah false memory syndrome which well if we go back a few years there was a lot written about this a lot talked about this I think they used to be quite a vogue in sort of therapeutic parlors and there's a lot more noise about what you're talking about false memory syndrome I come from where you've come from by the way which is perhaps they don't say it doesn't matter but I could it's a good way to say it I wanted to be more but I will nearly always say well let's just go with your frame of reference and we'll sort everything out later yeah yeah something like that so exactly where you come from yeah I just find it really interesting that sometimes at that point clients will question themselves that is it is it a reality yes because often the reality is too frightening for them to bear yeah so they don't know that it's too overwhelming too frightening too understandable so it's they will come often from the place that you've come from yeah and also there's a desire that I think there's a conflict often between the younger self and where you are at the moment talk about false memory syndrome part of them doesn't want their memories to be true absolutely and then there's another part that knows from much younger instinctual place that it is true yeah and you have this battle going out and often if if we're talking about you know trauma abuse here things where false memories are often created or not may later down the road get played out psychosis in other words they don't want these memories to be true they're too then undesirable they're too painful they cannot inadvertent comments be too question mark and the other side which knows at some level that the these two this trauma did happen and then you've got this conflict going on then you might get a third part of the south which often is might be apparent or significant other that hasn't protected them or whatever in the first place which is also you know passing on destructive messages about it's a secret or whatever language you want to use and then as a way of coping of all that they are often become psychotic in other words if we take a definition of psychosis as a movement away from reality they attempt to move away from reality and create a more desirable reality rather than than than going towards this conflict we're talking about yeah yeah absolutely so it's a survival mechanism it's a yeah yeah i think psychosis by definition is a survival mechanism yeah yeah absolutely because i think once if if the client comes to the the decision or the conclusion that you know what the memories are are real then the next thing is they need to do something with it sorry carry that on and i'll come back yeah no well i was just going to say often potentially that's why they don't want to accept that their memories are real because it's kind of not real if that makes sense and if it does become real then the impact of that can be big well it's usually it's usually tremendously big in that yeah yeah and often will take if they they might go down that path after years and years and years of denial whatever flag we want to use here they often need a lot of protection support and long term therapy to take ownership of their real memories yeah absolutely and it's like you say it's kind of like opening a pandora's box because it's not just one thing that it happened then you know there's all the unanswered questions about why did nobody save me why did nobody listen why did nobody there's like a catalogue of things that then potentially the client needs to look at yeah so usually how this all pans out at a major or minor level is when the client walks through the therapist's door at the beginning they don't go straight to what we're talking about here no it's way down the line yeah they might come with something like well you know i i've been depressed a lot of the time and i'm never quite sure why i am but actually i don't know why i'm here because it's it's low mood really but i just thought i'd come to therapy and then you go down so people start off with a very different objective even if even they don't know why they come to therapy in the first place so this what you're talking about here you know nothing is what it seems a therapy yeah exactly into the realms of this podcast it needs us to Sherlock Holmes to sorry we need the therapist to be like a Sherlock Holmes character who asks lots and lots of curiosity questions and comes from a very protective supportive place to get to perhaps a place which is a different type of reality which should be much which could be miles away from what they presented at the beginning yeah yeah and i think that happens quite a lot is you know six months in something will come up and it's not what i've got a form that clients fill out you know what are you hoping to get out of you know seeing a therapist and it's never what comes up further down the line no and you know to get to the place we're talking about here it needs a specific type of psychotherapist which is trained in a specific way number one they need to start thinking developmentally because nothing is what it seems in the therapy room once you start thinking developmentally yeah it needs a therapist that which is prepared to go the extra mile i think it needs a therapist that will relieve and support the client in front of them and needs of therapist is going to have a lot of courage to go to where they need to client needs to go to yeah and it needs a therapist is well trained in all this you read my mind then because i was going to say it's not only having the courage to go there it's knowing that you've got the skills to go there or if you go there yeah absolutely and um that's why i want an assessment system at my institute where i can get the right therapist to go with the right client and all those things but being trained to be a developmental psychotherapist and then to know or to have the skills and know what to do then when they get to a different place that they're going to with the client takes time to just get trained in the first place yeah yeah and and then you know it's years of experience in it having the you know the practical skills and learning about it and absolutely another another aspect of this conversation which i'd like to bring in which is this aspect for the client the therapist is rarely rarely what they think they are in other words we live in the world of projections so the client when they enact out their script with the therapist will project onto the therapist how the therapist uh needs to be to fit into their script and how they see the world that's what i mean it's not just about uh the therapist staying an adult which we talked about a moment ago which hopefully it's half the story or more than half the story but the client however in adult the therapist is as we were saying on his podcast that doesn't stop in any form or shape the client projecting their script and making the therapist fit into their script to make sense of the world yeah which is really difficult because there's nothing we can do about that no we can respond to it when we know what's going on but we can't force or make anybody think of us in any particular way no but also can't i believe a developmental based psychotherapist and certainly i'll speak for myself here wants that to happen so if we take as read that the client needs to project onto the therapist that the therapist is a certain type of person right to support their script yeah then the therapist is halfway there because they're already thinking that way because if the therapist is always thinking that this is going to occur and that the transference is going to happen then the therapist is halfway there in creating that help in creating that narrative to find out what all this is about and the character the therapist needs to be or is to fit into this whole process that the client needs to play out to get to some form of resolution in the enactment it's very difficult Bob but i'm thinking what you're saying is that we kind of need to buy into their script and become part of it so that then we understand it and we can step out of it and potentially encourage them to follow us or something i don't yeah encourage the script to develop in the therapy room yes absolutely that's what i'm saying yeah i wouldn't say buy into but i like i know what you mean well i'll put a more clinical word word to it then that the therapist is able and skillful enough and aware enough to step into the transference yes yeah that the client has begun yeah that's a much better way than i put it but i kind of knew what what i'm saying yes yeah absolutely yeah now that takes a certain type of skill by the therapist and it isn't someone that type of step that what we're talking about here stepping in the transference oh god the first year second year third year training or training um therapist isn't likely to be able to do that so the first step is to train the beginning therapist to at least understand the process of transference and script enactment yeah and when they go on their beginning journey and working in placements or whatever it is with their new clients they are starting to think that way yeah and eventually eventually eventually eventually eventually they might think about whether they want to understand the transference let the transference play out or in fact step into the transference yes and that takes time yeah yeah to learn how to do that but the first step is to be aware of the process and that is happening absolutely i think the first step of anything is to is awareness but you know i think as well that there's you know the really important thing around all of that is agrounding ourselves as much as the client after something like that has happened in a session oh and that we need to take care of ourselves if we're doing that an understanding that we're stepping into the transference that potentially there's going to be an impact on us with that as well well you absolutely right but that leads us to that phrase i said earlier on the podcast in transaction analysis language executive adult yeah you know what i mean by this that we that we utilize our energy to stay in the adult age state you know from where we are today 73 year old so we stay there if you like but like we move and never you think of a stepping into another well though we stay grounded in the adult we from executive place we step into like you imagine making a step into their world but we're always grounded in the art executive adult so we can step back again yeah i know i say this quite a lot in a lot of the podcasts that we do but it is literally like the matrix in the therapy there are so many different levels and intertwining things and and it's yeah it's like the matrix well but if we if i'll go back because i think this is really important if we at least keep more than 70 percent of our energy grounded in our executive adult then we can all then we have that ability to shuttle backwards and forwards into the world of our clients in a protective supportive way and come back again yeah that's really important that's why i said more than 70 percent because that means at least one of the two people in the room is grounded yeah and able to help the client come back to in an integrated way as much as possible to their adult to be able to do the debriefing and making sure their adult eager state before the session ends yeah yeah which i think is really important i can remember on my training as well i might have the the statistics wrong on this and correct me if i do but there was something about the 80 20 rule about the type of clients that we take on do you know what i mean that we can't take on every complex client that there is we need to look after ourselves purely simply because of things like this that can happen in the therapy room well i think yeah that was winning a book called transaction analysis by woollams and was it woollams and brown i don't think maybe it was when they came out with that the phase that you taught that i think it's very important that we think if we're taking care of ourselves that we think about how much energy we have yeah and how much we will spend with certain types of clients and the more disturbed clients often take more energy if you want to put it that way so we need to think about ourselves when we're working with people so i know ending so i just wanted to get all right that's my assumption but i want us to say something we addressed this title nothing is what it seems in the therapy room and i believe that but or stroke and it's really really important that the therapist in the last five ten minutes make sure that the client as much as they are is in their own adult ego state and the therapist is in their adult ego state so maybe in the last five minutes of the therapy session and perhaps the first five minutes of the sessions therapy sessions were more what we think is happening is actually happening yes the bit in between maybe a different journey yeah yeah i think that's a nice way of looking at it that we're in reality at the beginning at the end and the bit in the middle could be anything yeah and be open to that oh oh because i think that i i don't plan sessions anymore at you i don't think you can but i'm much more open to going where the therapy goes now when i first started i needed a plan so that i knew what was happening whereas now i don't i think though i i understand what you're saying exactly but i think it's a good working rule to think that okay if we don't plan things but at least we know that the beginning and the end of the therapy hour is going to be two people coming from the adult league of states as much as possible yeah yeah and obviously that the session is in the best interest of the client and not just because i don't want to plan yeah well bob as always another wonderful podcast episode and what we're going to be talking about in the next one is the importance of continuity and predictability in the therapy process it sort of fits in in a way doesn't it i was just thinking that yeah absolutely until next time yeah bye bye bye bye you've been listening to the therapy show behind closed doors podcast we hope you enjoyed the show don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review we'll be back next week with another episode