Is there a trend for the project, or a weakness of the project, or whatever they would like to discuss? Maybe you could copy the, for example, all the strings, put them at the beginning of the document, and review them together, and put the other ones. I just read it. Yeah, so the things I identified back then in 2014, where the strong shared common ideas and goals contributed, so we have clearly a project where everybody, well, mostly everybody agrees about what we are aiming at, widespread agreement with foundational documents and procedures. Everybody cares about Debian's and likes it. If you talk to the outside world, I mean, outside the conf, lots of people are really big fans of Debian, even when they're not shooting it. We have a large active community of volunteers, and we value independence quite highly, and we don't compromise with it. So the other ones, I'll just continue reading, but Neil pointed the social contract as a trend. I think this kind of is included in what's line four on foundation documents. Neil isn't here, so he cannot comment, and maybe you can comment on yours. Oh, mine were. So there was independence, and I scratched it off because it was in your list already. There is, so let me show you. History of the project, we've been doing this for over two decades now. We have committed a lot of experience and showed that our work is ruined, there's a few software in our business community. It's to make sure that the structure is still working, having an organization with the good processes, and having, I mean, trying to avoid organizational blockers inside the project. The large community, so that's obvious. Largest number of derivatives. Someone is editing. It's a bit complicated with line six, but yeah. Line six, yeah, sure. Largest packages are repositories, and philosophy of technical excellence and commitment to free software. I don't think it's necessary to command them. They are simple enough. So what's missing? Microphone, wait for the microphone, I've had several people asking for audio during the book. I was just, Debian has a strong reputation for stability, and it doesn't seem to be captured up there. I think a strength of the Debian project is also it's non-binding to corporations. Independence. Independence, okay. Yeah, it was listed already. Actually, you like repeating things, right? That's great, isn't it? Yeah, it's just a way to get it in my mind. It's still early morning, no? Is that a sub-item of independence? Maybe we could detail in which way we are independent. We are also financially independent, not only about our goals, but in our philosophy and our finances. I was going to say, we have a huge number of very dedicated developers making it better, but there is large and active community, which I just saw now, maybe dedicated, put that in there or something like that, because it's amazing what we do, I mean, seriously. Go to the opportunities. I think it's easier for the other... So these are the ones identified back then. The first one is the fact that we are one of the few remaining large community projects. I would say true community projects for many other free software projects that are kind of polluted by companies. I don't see this that much present in Debian. We have approved many developers employed by companies to work on Debian, but still they mainly contribute... It's called them. Oh, sorry, I don't have the right resolution. They contribute to Debian with their Debian heart, and not with their, say, collaborator heart or whatever, or the company can put our HP or whatever. The second one was the general post-no-don OCT towards some big corporate players. We are clearly seen as being independent for all those big players. And CloudCell is here, is that the question? I think it was mine. Nils, I didn't copy them, because it's only about things and weaknesses that he didn't do. Nils. Cloud service is about... So, yeah. Zach made a talk at DevCon 14, if I recall correctly, about what is the definition of free services, cloud services. And he made a point about all the computing moving from workstations to the cloud. And the question was about how to make sure that people still use free things there, what is about free services, and also how to make sure that we are still relevant, like for example. So there is the on-cloud service. I'm not saying particularly that we should package it or something, it's just something that exists. It's not packaged today in Debian and got removed for some reasons. So somehow we are not enabling our users to easily install such software. And they may use another instance publicly available for free. But we don't know how it's installed, how is their data in the service private or whatever. So the subject was about making sure that we are working on packaging those services. Also about making sure that Debian is easy to install on the cloud platforms. So for now we still don't have, maybe we fixed it a bit, but not exactly. We don't have installers officially promoted by the project for like Amazon, Azure, etc. But are installers needed for Amazon or Azure? You just take image like AMI or some Google Cloud image or Azure image, like image of existing already installed Debian installation and you just use it. About Amazon for example, I know that there are multiple AMIs. So which one do you pick? Which one has been promoted by the project? We have Debian images. I'm not sure whether they are officially blessed, but they are named Debian with Debian Swir. On our download page, we only advertise Azure images and not the cloud things yet. Yeah, they are on the wiki. Okay, so when I'm using Debian on EC2 on Amazon, I usually create new instance and go to marketplace, put Debian and just start this Debian image. But at the same time, I was today at the Azure presentation and they collaborate, they are doing something really interesting like preparing every day, building new Debian images for a stretch, for Weezy and for Jesse, which is not the case for example for EC2. For EC2, we only get new images when we release new sub-release, for example 8.5 or something like this. So this means that we, and also we don't get relevant testing images in EC2, which means that working with testing some of the new packages on Amazon is quite different, quite difficult. I'm not sure what's the case with Google. Yeah, I think we agree on the technical status. My main action was about this one. It's about advertising, what it's being done, and make sure it's on the official download page and not on some wiki page. Okay, there will be both for the cloud in two hours. I don't know, Steve is working on that with his CD image hat to make sure that the cloud OpenStack images are being built by the official infrastructure. Yeah, that's also the question. I'm not sure what's the current status about that, but at some point it was quite, quite difficult discussion about what does Debian image mean on such public clouds. What are you allowed to include in the image by default, even if it's not in stable release? I think there is a page now, which gets the criteria. Yeah, but it's easy to apply to each and every public cloud we have images for. I'm not so sure. For now we don't advertise public, I mean official images. Maybe it's applied, but we don't know yet. Maybe I should put the link about that. Maybe just go on because the next item is yours as well. Yeah, the other one, it's not only about French-Arabic speaking countries actually. It's about also Asia, users from Africa or Latin countries, etc. Make sure that for example we go there, make some talks. I mean the project can fund that. So we have some representative, we have our project presented in conferences there. I know that a few developers go to First Asia, which is great, and we should be doing that for other conferences. It's a promotion effort basically. What do you see as the main blocure for improving? Well going to conferences is nice, but it seems to me that at least when I got involved, the main way people got involved was because one of their friends was involved in Debian. So it's quite hard to just bootstrap a new geographical location just because you have nothing there. But at least when you go there you have the opportunity to meet people, so you can encourage them to talk to you even by mail later, mentor them. Some comments off the internet. Jason's been making quite a few posts. Fortunately it doesn't seem we're streaming very well at the moment, so it is being recorded. So these may or may not have already been on the agenda. Continuing the definition of free software, promoting its work within Debian, retaking Sax Talk in Debian, DC 17, Debian in the Dark Ages of free software. We've covered most of that. Considering the transform of the official website, Debian.org, with less textual interface to generate more visual appeal and thereby facilitating access and read content to the general public and potential collaborators. Trying to attract more users, new collaborators and developers through the above two points as well as other possible activities. Please communicate in an opportunity. Yep, I think we've covered what's being asked for. Could someone with access to IAC please take a few notes about what was said by IAC? Rafael, maybe? Debian has a middleman. Basically we are the interface between upstream and users. There are moves to... with application building solution where basically we would no longer be needed. I think it makes sense for us to have our say in this move and maybe embrace it rather than refuse to accept it and continue to keep our influence on the ecosystem there. I took this example. There are other similar cases that we could find. We have at least our upstream guide which is sort of our official recommendations for upstream developers. So maybe it's not well enough advertising as well. Thank you. So I try to identify actions to do and to act on the opportunities like doing some advertisement work for the cloud services or images, etc. Do we have ideas for the other items on the list? So for example, for the website, I don't know the status of the WWW team. Maybe Paul knows about it? It's keeping up with bug reports and stuff but not really bigger things. So basically nobody is blocking it. We are just looking for volunteers to do the work, like converting the CVS stuff to Git, which has been on the to the list for years but nobody was... I do know that the designer that we recruited this year for DebConf, one of the first things she said is, ooh, the Debian website really needs some work, which she has had no time because we've had her working on DebConf but she might be recruited. We did have a slight problem with getting her to do free software tools so there's some work there but it's possible and she clearly has skills. About new contributors from countries outside North America and Europe, maybe that's something that should be more widely announced in a sponsorship program for developers, for DDs to go to conferences elsewhere to give talks about Debian tutorials about Debian packaging. That would be a good use of Debian money. Do we have enough manpower if we would get, I don't know, a few dozens of contributors, which would need to be mentored and guided at least initially? It's a luxury problem to solve the day we have thousands of contributors. So I don't worry, we will find enough work for them. But sometimes the problem is making sure that people are in touch. I mean, that's the goal of Ashish's booth, where you have the mentors saying what they are working on in Debian, the mentee saying what are their interests in Debian and it helps to make people in touch to start working on it. And they even manage to find new volunteers for local teams, so it's really working in minutes. So that group of persons, so maybe should... There was the idea of doing a welcome team actually in Debian which could help people start doing things in Debian. Sometimes people don't know who to contact to act on some area of the project. So if you know already those guys and if you know Debian enough, you could do this first step. Related to that, it might be more for the weaknesses. I think one problematic external impression of how you can contribute to Debian is that you absolutely need to be a Debian developer. I think we still haven't managed to fix that. And people quite often come and say, well, but yeah, you know I'm not a DD, so dot dot dot something excuses. But it's mostly our fault too, probably. Can I take issue with that one? Can I take issue with that one? I've not been a DD. I'm now a DDU, not uploading, but that only happened a week after last year's DebConf. And that was only because people were sort of saying, look, it's about time you actually went through the process. I've been involved with the project for 10 plus years. No real issues whatsoever. We're contributing without being a DD. It's purely an excuse not to do something. I don't think we disagree. Okay. I heard it as slightly differently, so my apologies. Well, I mean, I'm not saying it doesn't work. I'm saying there is an external perception that you need to have these ticks in your profile to be able to contribute. Maybe my impression of this external perception is wrong, but I'm glad it works. It works fine. There's plenty of people around here today. There's a lot of the local team on our DDs. I've been doing an awful lot on this because they've been not right, Tim, but he's been suggested by friends and people that have been working on it that this is really cool to work on. And becoming a DD will be further down that line, but it's not necessarily seen as a stopping point. I just want to comment on other opportunities. How should we move to the weaknesses? Yeah, so just for this one highlighted, for the apps, I suggested maybe it could be part of the roadmap because it's a wide archive change, and it fits there. Then we only need a driver for the idea. What about the Libre CPU architectures? Who added that? I added that. The question is actually what, from Debian, can we do to... Well, we can support them and create a port and so forth. Mostly that's referring to RISC-V, but there's also the SuperH architecture that the patents have expired in there, reviving it as an open source architecture. Yeah. The problem with RISC-V at the moment is the patches aren't upstream yet and they're still revising the ABIs and stuff like that. Okay. And this one, the Linux desktop? Who's about you? No, it was Wodix. Yeah, it was Wodix desktop. Was it you? Well, we haven't yet seen that year, so it's still an opportunity. Oh, okay. It's never coming. Just so you know, think about mobile instead. What's actually happening is the desktop is going away entirely. So don't worry about the year of Linux desktop. Who cares anymore? Do worry about mobile though. Okay. Okay, let's move to weaknesses. I find we're moving to weaknesses. I already copied the text. Yeah, so some of the things that were identified in the past is dispersion of manpower, lack of manpower on core things, lack of interest in contributors, common technical paths, fragmentation, lack of common technical practices in some areas. In fact, the packaging is difficult. This limits the use of packages, standard interface, standard software distribution mechanism. It's difficult to get started as a contributor, lack of sponsor requirements. Disconnection from upstream for many packages. Who is that? Odyx, again? You can comment on that if you want. I mean, I think we have a TC chair now who's under 35. I mean, it didn't happen since, I don't know, maybe 10 years. So it's a good sign that we have new younger people in the project. It's kind of the usual thing is that it's common for us to think that we're getting old and we're maybe not looking correctly and we might just be missing that the young guard is actually coming and there are actually people that are young that contribute. But I still think the first part of the sentence that the age average is growing stands and that might be a weakness. I mean, it used to be a project for the 20-ish people and now it's, yeah, we have a bar that closes at 11 and we are happy with it. Speaking from another open source project that went through this same process, I can tell you it is a problem. If you don't welcome the new generations, it means in another 10 years you're dead. But this actually ties into the earlier thing. We're talking about small events in regional areas. It's not even as big as a mini-Debconf, even smaller. Ashish did something awesome which was open hatch comes to campus. He would connect with local user groups and run. It doesn't take even, you know, maybe if one DD could go or even just someone who kind of knows a little bit about Debian could go. You can spin up these very small university events that get university students excited about the project. And that's probably the best way to get very young people involved. I got also in touch with my academic background in the past with a professor teaching teachers who wanted to do a short internship and we could have a program within Debian to have people from, I don't know, colleges or whatever to work on small tasks and it could be a way to get in. Okay, talking about universities. I remember when I was student we had some Linux user group locally. Now when I'm speaking with people who still keep up with my former university, now it's .NET user group, some mobile programming, some gaming. But I'm not sure if Linux user group even exists at my former faculty. So that might be the sign of the times changing and that might be also one of the reasons that we don't have new blogs because my first contact with Linux was at the university and we were exchanging some ideas, we were discussing about distros flaming there. But I think we also have to update our speech when we are trying to reach out to new users and communities because we always start by saying I could do, for example, a packaging tutorial but people are not interested in packaging and we have to update our speech to find new interesting tasks to do in the project which would be appealing and interesting for young people. So if there aren't Linux users groups on campuses anymore, is it because it's already a done thing and people are using it in the engineering programs or is it not? I'm old enough to have a son in college and connecting his computer to the internet you needed Windows or Macintosh. If you wanted to run Linux you had to run your own network. But I know a lot of engineering programs are already using Linux. So it's not only about the users groups it's do we have attention of the faculty and incorporating Linux into the curriculum? I think that we are at the bottom of the curve currently because I think that traditional operating systems courses are becoming a bit less relevant because there's not so much of a need for people with such skills on the market, at least probably less than 10 years ago because everybody uses Linux and it just works. And at the same time there are not so many people who identify the need for DevOps or managing large infrastructure skills which are more a mix of system programming and assistive meaning and so nobody is really teaching about those skills at the moment. We can hope that this will change just because many large companies run really large infrastructures and there's a need for people to do that and clearly that's something that is quite hard to find on the job market today. Okay, so if I may play with your idea. So it seems like we have two problems. One is the lack of role models of somebody whom to aspire like faculty using Linux and showing that you can do cool things and also lack of view like Linux now is seen as operating system yet another operating system like Mac or Windows or whatever and it mostly works. So it's not seen as students and new fresh blood is not feeling the need to tinker with it and from this tinkering we had new contributors. So we would need to find some idea to freshen this tinkering. I don't know maybe returning a little bit to the cloud maybe show them how to manage some few instances on the cloud. I recently got email from Google that they are providing some credits to run some Google cloud in academia so maybe get from this angle because when it comes to the new packaging I'm not sure if that's really pressing issue. We have over 50,000 packages and in my opinion more problematic now are orphaned or not really well maintained packages. Staying with your academia theme. Certainly in the UK we're finding a lot of the colleges are demanding submission of tasks and reports in a particular system in a particular format and they're all demanding the documenting word format or whatever and there seems to be a lot of effort has gone in to prevent it being submitted from anything other than an Office 365 generated device. Almost as if I were being carefully pushed out deliberately. The universities don't want to take submission of an electronic document from MOA or LibreOffice. Even for PDFs? They don't accept other things like PDFs? No, they've now got their plagiarism. Certainly in the two universities I've had contact with recently demanded document in a word format. They've run it through their anti-plagiarism script. So it's expecting something in particular. It then goes and processes it. So what you've actually got there is freedom is constrained intentionally to provide a service which you must go down a particular route. So they're expecting the students to be running on on Windows Box or running on Mac. So it's a tooling problem on the universities and since their budgets are getting smaller and smaller. Yeah, budgets being constrained, but of course freedom is also being constrained as a result. Still I think this issue is a bit different from the one before. The fact that people cannot use Linux-based systems at universities is one problem. The fact that the university isn't teaching that much about the importance of Linux-based systems or Unix systems is another issue. The one you mentioned applies to everybody at university. The second one applies to computer science students. And in terms of recruiting contributors, we mostly care about the second group of people and also, yeah, it's still... If it's going to grow, we're going to need to appeal to more than just our potential developers. We're going to have to appeal to our end users and our end users need to be everybody else. It's a larger group of people to appeal to. Can Raphael comment on the... before the last one? And clear decision processes or... Oh, sorry, really? Yeah, Madoc, sorry. Kind of assumed that it's a little bit self-explanatory, especially the first one. But I guess it's the huge picture or circle around how do we progress, how do we make progress in the project. And often there come some controversial decisions that need to be made. And some teams are really good at doing that now, communicating up front and then making the decision and just moving forward with it. But it's not clear how that works, how it's expected from everyone in the project. And for instance, if I wanted to drive a certain change in the project, it's not clear how I even would get to the point of identifying who can make the decision without going to a GR. And I guess it ties in with the second point that I made there, the reluctance towards entrepreneurial initiatives, which may well fail. I have this feeling that in Debian we're all very protective of what we have, of our brand, of our project, of our pride and everything. And yet at the same time, if we don't take risks and try some stuff out, we're probably not going to be able to advance a whole lot. I've noticed a very strong decline in innovation capacity in the last decade in Debian and maybe that's partly related here. So sort of embracing this sentiment that it's okay to try something and if it fails, then we'll just pick up the pieces and keep going rather than fearing that it might negatively affect the brand Debian. Because if we're perceived to the outside as an innovative project that tries stuff, I think that's going to be a better image to Debian even if some of them fail than if it's a sort of stagnant project. So is it about promotion of individual projects? Well, pretty much anything. I was thinking when I wrote this, I was thinking about the partners program, where some of this entrepreneurial freedom would be very helpful to have, but I'm sure that it applies to many other things, you know, events. Probably less so the technical stuff. I mean, you're not going to be like entrepreneurial about technical innovation in some ways. We do have processes there, but there's a lot more around. Take for instance, a website design. I mean, one of the reasons why we do have an updated website, it looks better than 10 years ago, but there have been a couple of people trying to make it more of a friendly, responsive design and so on and so forth. And while I'm sure that a lot of people will be in favor of that, the sentiment in the project, if I had to describe it like that, is more like very, very skeptical of the whole thing. And so therefore when somebody approaches this, they go like, I don't really want to touch this project even with a broomstick because I'm afraid that I'm going to get backlash. Whereas what we should have is a community where if somebody says, I want to work on the website, everybody goes like, yeah, that's awesome. We're looking forward to having your designs and then we'll provide feedback and so on. Rather than you need to... You are very conservative with what works already. And that's also good. I'm not saying that we should start failing on everything, right? But it's true that when we have new initiatives, we tend to ask too much questions that eventually discourage the person who was volunteering for it. Instead of, for example, making a test bed so they can work on and show it to the people, they... But failure and experimentation should also follow with some post mortem or assuming that it failed or post some roadmap for doing this. For example, we have DebianDroid, which was the result of Google Summer of Coast two or three years ago. But students finished this and this application was not touched in three years already. So it's now obsolete. It doesn't display correctly some of the bugs. And it has only below 100 users. So when you put Debian into Google Play Store, it's one of first hits and it's not really good. So should we try to do something with it, like rewrite it with modern Android guidelines or I guess this goes a little bit with our social media presence. Because in my opinion, if it would work, it could be a good first point for somebody, some Debian user to subscribe to some bugs to show what are the versions of some interesting packages. And at the same time, a little bit less than our burden on web page. Because if somebody can look it on mobile application, then it's more modern, more hip or something. Any other comments? Should I just pull it down a little bit? It's okay. So innovation capacity decline. So looking at the first thread or second is the end of the desktop and we already talked about cloud images. Under opportunities, I think we should talk about Debian on devices. As a real opportunity. If you look at Beagle board, you look at Raspberry Pi, they're both using Debian today. I think that's an opportunity. If you look at the display case out front, you see all those robots. I'm willing to bet they're running something, some type of embedded Linux. So if you really think the desktop is diminishing, you have two fronts to focus on, the cloud and devices. So we should really be looking at both of them. There are a few minutes left. Someone wants to comment on some of the threads. Inspiration of thread art. System B. Rafael, do you want to comment about that? They have insider information. What I was discussing was I read that guy who told me there are many parts of the lower stack GCC and also other stack in GNOME and everything. And if threads were to die, we would have many problems because Linux would work much worse. He mentioned, for example, that well, that does a lot of laptop testing and many of the drivers actually do work because Red Hat engineers fixed them. I don't know how much truth it is, but I think it's believable that Red Hat's involvement there is important. And well, those are sort of not very realistic threads, but still it may be nice to have more devianish people involved in the lower stack level where Red Hat is heavily involved so that if Red Hat disappears, we have people left. I want to comment on the containers as a solution to deploy applications and services. Sorry, what? Which is identified as a threat, but we could also look at it as an opportunity. At work, we are maintaining a devian derivative internally based on Stable. So we have the old Stable releases as well as testing. Many users are asking for a back port of some applications from release to an earlier release. What we found simpler is to have some process and programs to easily get applications run in containers from newer Stable releases. So it's technically very easy. You just have to install a chute, install the packages there and make some scripts to run the application. So it's easy to do and it's a way to say to people, okay, so if you manage to package it in testing, you are not forced to wait until it's released as Stable to use it. You can use it from today. We don't have such tools yet, I mean devian. So if we... one minute, okay. I don't have anything to say more about that. Just work on some tools around containers. It's a new technology and we didn't take advantage of it. We are only looking at it as a threat. It could be an opportunity to make things simpler to distribute. I think that generally we are not really embracing all the new ways to distribute software up to their potential. One thing that is clearly changing is that people want to use different versions of software and just use backpots and everything. Backpots are not really a solution because most of the packages in devian don't have backpots. One idea I've been playing for a long time is trying to do automatic back porting. I wonder how many of our packages would just work to feed them for the target distribution and provide them as untested stuff to users. Most of our users just do that from source and we are out of time, so I'm stopping there. If you're interested in working on that, I'm interested in talking to you. Thank you. Thank you.


Live from Mountain View, California, it's theCUBE. Covering DevNet Create 2019, brought to you by Cisco. Everyone, welcome back to theCUBE's live coverage here in Mountain View, California for theCUBE's coverage of Cisco DevNet Creates, a small, intimate event where we're bringing the cloud-native creation world with the DevNet community within Cisco. And of course, building applications, programming networks. That's the theme. I'm John Furrier, your host. Our next guest is Daryl Sladden, Senior Technical Product Manager at Cisco, 20-year veteran, built voice-over IP systems.  Great to see you. Thanks for coming on. Thank you so much. I'm glad to be here. And you're being on theCUBE. You're on theCUBE. Because... And the trivia behind that, share the context. You had a product, you built one. Yes, the first product management job at Cisco was at building the Cisco Unified Border Element. And of course, that became theCUBE. So anytime you mention CUBE inside of Cisco, that's going to be my product. The renaissance within Cisco. The CUBE is back and we're embedded in there. Of course, we're breaking all the borders down, getting the data. Tell us what's going on in your world. Obviously, you've seen a lot of waves in voice-over IP that you were involved in. That took the old PBX telephone, got digital, created massive innovation. That's an inflection point moment. We're seeing a few of those big waves happening now. One of them is an architectural change around IoT, Wi-Fi 6, 5G, cloud computing, all coming together. This is an interesting opportunity. What's your focus? Where do you fit into all that? Yeah, where I fit in is this is a massive change. And one of the problem sets that hasn't been solved yet is how do I understand where I am indoors? There's been great solutions that have been unlocked hugely with values with the GPS system outdoors. You always know where you are on ways to find out exactly the right. I'm always amazed at how accurate they are and how long it's going to take me to get to the computer museum. But how do I know, once I've got into the museum, that the cube is in the upstairs in the back corner? That's where we need to solve that problem. And I think we're at the crux of that. Waze is a great example, because one of the things I'm amazed by with Waze is how fast they report the incidents that are going on. It's as if people are so actively rabid of adding input in the data. You got data junkies adding it. And there's been some side effects. The side streets are always clogged. The streets are always nowhere that. So in physical locations where Wi-Fi 6, for instance, comes out, you're going to have new capabilities in bandwidth and throughput and coverage areas, these dense areas. It's going to create a navigation opportunity for either machines, the machines, machines to humans, humans to machines, humans to humans, within a physical construct. What is the, how do you see that evolving? Use cases, what's the pattern? What I really see evolving is taking advantage of some of the capabilities that have already existed in Wi-Fi, meaning ranging from individual APs. But some of the new things that are coming with Wi-Fi 6 is the Wi-Fi 6 creates a great baseline, but there are new things where 802.11 MC, for example, which is an extension of Wi-Fi 6, has what's called fine timing measurement. I can now, with these super accurate chip sets, know the speed of light is about one nanosecond to go about three feet. If I have an accurate clock, now I can know how far I am from the APs and I can solve that in indoor locations. So a lot of physics involved. All right, so what products are you working on now to make all this happen?  Yeah, so what I'm working on is a new, is our Cisco's new location platform. It's called Cisco DNA Spaces. And so what we're focusing on is digitizing that indoor space. So people spend most of their economic activity or indoors, whether it's in a hotel, where they're selling the rooms or a restaurant, where they're selling food inside the spaces, but what goes on in that physical space? People don't have that same level of knowledge that you do on the web, right? When I go to a webpage and I shop for outdoor furniture, the next two weeks I'm followed by ads about outdoor furniture. But if I go to Home Depot and I spend an hour on the outdoor furniture aisle, they don't know about that. Now it allows you to digitize that indoor space and provide that context for other types of applications. So the value, I mean, I'm not saying that now they're going to know you actually shop at Home Depot, now your ads go to Home Depot. But the value is not so much in the advertising, it's really in the efficiencies around work, play, office, these are the things that are going to be impacted because, you know, take healthcare for instance, manufacturing, how people do work, how services are delivered. Just like in the consumer side, we all relate to the iPhone days when, oh my God, I can have GPS on a phone and things now I do a mashup on a Google map. Are you saying the same thing for buildings we're going to import? Are you going to import like architectural drawings? How do you get all this built out? What's the playbook? Yeah, the playbook really will be starting at the larger buildings that will be put into Google maps or put into other places where I can start to get really accurate indoor locations and then never losing things, right? Be able to know where you are indoors, be able to always find your stuff, not only where you are, but maybe I put a tag on some of my assets and I always know where they are. The idea of nurses becoming more efficient because they're going to know where that wheelchair is if I need to find a wheelchair to move a patient out of an office. All of these things just become a little bit more efficient but that just builds on a huge scale when that happens at scale. Darrell, talk about the impact of this because you've built and deployed disruptive technology in the past for the folks watching, whether it's an enterprise architect or a CIO or CEO or facilities manager, whoever, what is the impact of these new location-based services to their business? How should they be thinking about it holistically? Yeah, so my real view is that you want to look at it from a platform. So you're not going to have one company, we're in a Cisco, we're not going to solve every application but what you do want to do is build a platform that's extensive, right? So we will take in data from multiple sources, whether it be APs or video cameras, other things, create a platform that normalizes that location and then opens that up. Really, that's what happened as the mainframes transitioned to client server computing. Once you start breaking things up, that's really the value. And so I think the CIOs and architects out there shouldn't be looking at point products as much as understanding that a location platform will help them unlock the value moving forward. Tell us about the data. How is the data traversing through this? Because as you mentioned, connecting things like cameras and other things, what could be medical equipment, could be anything, IOT is going to be a tsunami of opportunity. Applications are going to create a lot of opportunity. Where, how should I think about the data flow and the role of machine learning and data in all this? Is that going to be a key part of this? Absolutely, the way that we're looking at it is there's kind of two groups. There's the ones that are all in on the cloud. And we are offering this as a software, as a subscription service. So you buy it on a subscription basis and you let Cisco deal with the problems. Of course, with a regulated environment of access to the data and backing it up and restoring it and making sure it's well curated. Or you could decide that I want to run it on-premises. If you run it on-prem, you have to understand you're going to have to deal with those same problems of backup. The data will get really large as you start to collect more and more location. And how are you going to best extract value from that data? So I think you won't really want to look at that. This is something that's going to continue to expand. And do I want to make that a core confidence by running it myself? Or maybe turn that over to Cloud. So in terms of what's real and what's not real? Or what's coming and what's real today? So you mentioned there's some location services as a SaaS. Is, talk about what's available now from your customer standpoint. What can they get going on and what's coming around the corner? Yeah, so what they can get going on today is that location services, Cisco DNA Spaces. So if you go to CiscoDNAspaces.com, there's free trials available. It's a great sort of application. But more importantly, it provides you that initial start. What's coming is more and more applications that take advantage of that. We've had a great one for things like student success. So that you know a student is inside of a classroom and then that if he doesn't come up to class for a couple days in a row, oh, maybe he needs counseling. Maybe his car broke down. I can start to do these really interesting student success applications as an example of a vertical. So the vertical applications are starting to really proliferate, but what's available today is the platform. So you see verticals really booming on this. They're going to take advantage of it. All right, so just kind of zoom out and put your industry hat on, not your Cisco hat. When you look at Wi-Fi and 5G or other technologies that are out there, what's the big movement? What moves the ball down the field the most? Is it going to be Wi-Fi and 5G? Because it seems like the inch by inch unified communication seems stalled now. It's got an uplift with cloud, with data, or more great user experiences. SD Win has been around for a long time and getting a resurgence. I mean, campus networking has been around for a long, long time. I mean, people go to stadiums, want to do Instagram and do videos. What's the big technology lever here? What's the big tailwind for location-based and building stuff? So what I start to see for this is improvement standards and improving accuracy. Right, until you get to that point where it's reliable and replaceable and I can really depend on it, it's all a niche product. I think that's been happening for literally the last eight years in this industry. There's lots of niche examples of things that have been successful, but it hasn't exploded. Until you build that platform where I can absolutely, with reliability, say this device is at this point at this time, then you can start to really explore. The timing and the throughput to your point earlier. Okay, thoughts on DevNet, just to wrap up. What's here going on in the show here? DevNet Create, Susie did a good job of bringing communities together. A lot of co-creation, they're creating new things, new application environment, programmable. What's your thoughts on DevNet? Yeah, I love being around some of the smartest people in the world here. It's great, humbling us to be able to talk to some of these guys, but I do think that really creates the community that teaches everything from little things, like we learned about a, I learned a quick, great new little API trick that I hadn't learned, and maybe I taught some people some of the stuff that we're doing about streaming APIs. What I really like about this is all these small little interactions build something really good. And you build APIs into all the products that's only going to create more enablement, more creativity, the creativity's flowing big time. Terrell, thanks for coming on. Great to see you. Thanks to the Cube Fan, author of the product called theCUBE. It's just go back on the day. I'm John Furrier, back with more live coverage to this short break.


Hello friends and welcome back to another episode of our road to rank through let series it is Tuesday And we kicked off in our last episode yesterday with this team that is on the screen in front of you right now As always there is a team paste down in the description There is a roll paste and a poker paste of the team you can check it out Try it out if you'd like to and if you do try it out as always do let me know how you get on with it But as I say we kicked off with it yesterday. We didn't have the best of starts to the week So I'm really hoping in today's episode. We can we can turn over a new leaf try again reset and See what we can do with the team just to recap it though We got the wiggly tuff the dongwings and across my Lugia the Volcarona Laurentus and hit my top and that was what the roulette wheel kindly threw out for us this week Remember tomorrow we can activate some bonus buttons depending on how today goes We'll see but it might be likely that we're gonna activate maybe a couple at least tomorrow Of some of those bonus buttons. Let's Hop over into our main screen. Let's see what the the damages we're sitting on a 1451 rating We're doing well we're doing well we're doing we're doing all the right things We're gonna get up to 1500 by the end of the week I promise you that is that something that I just say every week and I just it just never happens I don't think it's ever happened. We're only in this position because we've been streaming and We've been playing good teams on stream and it's managed to kind of get us to those points It's weird playing a stream with a properly built team and winning Winning but it does make winning in this series that much more worthwhile It feels so much better because you've really worked for it and really struggled for it So with a bunch of mad Pokemon But I'm not gonna complain too much even though I feel like I probably am so I will apologize for that We've got a first opponent in the episode so we'll hop straight over into team preview Okay, we got incineroar request another a quasi. Come on. Come on. Give us something different tap a cocoa crowbar Kyoga and Exkidrill Well, well, well, okay, we've got the the crowbar for the speed control works super well next to that Rayquaza It's gonna be mega Rayquaza The exkidrill. Hmm. Has it got mold breaker to get around things that are a floaty like stuff that could Maybe give this team a bit of problem like bronze on stuff like that I hit months up regardless. It's gonna be really strong here I don't know if we want to go down a trick room route although trick room could be very good for us the incineroar does cause us a few problems and It's looking gonna be the way to go here the type of cocoa could be awkward I'm actually gonna go for the necrosma. I'm gonna go trick room route here I think around this is really good. And do we go wiggly tough? Do we give it another chance? It's not got the best of it's not gonna have the best of time against the exkidrill, but we've got Enough Pokemon to kind of get around these others. I'm gonna bring it. I'm gonna do it We're gonna start off today like we did yesterday with the same for with the same kind of basic premise We did well in that match. I think there was the the nuzzle that Kind of screwed us over a little bit late game Other than that like if we got around that we possibly would have been able to claw out a victory there But let's try again. He's fought it. All right So we're gonna see crowbar and we're gonna see Require that the crowbar's got to taunt us hasn't it has to Ask the taunt us.  We get a nice intimidate onto it Now do we Z move the Rayquaza and fake out or do we Z move it next turn? I think we probably Z move it next turn. We'll fake it out. We'll go for the photon guys that into the crowbar Because I I totally expect a taunt to come out here to shut down a potential trick room The one thing I would kick myself about a little bit is if the ray It doesn't protect you and we could have doubled into it And it's kind of like one of those situations where you think I could have got rid of only one of them all nuisance restrictive Pokemon on my opponent's side and That is exactly what's happening super fine coming out Maybe predicting that we were gonna turn into a tree in a plasma, but not the case if this takes you down Okay, this is where faint again would be so so useful and Let's go for the trick room. Let's try the trick room Do we bring in wiggy tough? I think it's probably not a bad idea And we'll try and trick room. Yeah Then we preserve the the top for later We've got there the intimidate support because the X could rule the problem in case Kyle good comes in We got a white guard there. So Perfect tailwind not suspecting in the slightest the trick room here from our donwings across We're gonna see a dragon ascent is it into yet into our donwings, but Intimidate it will be able to take this Bandit, it's not I Wouldn't have thought so anyway, but we do get the trick room up, which is perfect all Excellent another turn where a tailwind goes up. What more could you ask for? We can dazzle? Dazzle razzle dazzle and we'll go moon guys beam into the request We'll sit on as he moved just for the moment because We'll just we'll just wait for whatever comes in later and see if we can we can knock something out later We're gonna see an extreme speed Okay, it's into wiggy tough takes it like a champ gonna be able to get this dazzle off knock out this crobat Do some nice damage to the requiser and hopefully put it in range for a moon guys beam to pick up the knockout there So we do deal with these two threats pretty easily Whatever comes in next as well, you know, they're still in a tailwind. We're in a trick room. Whatever it is What however slow it is it's gonna be Slower than us, so we're gonna be able to get the Z move off and Hopefully set up kind of like that nice end game that we're wanting to see and pick up a nice win to kick us off today It should be fantastic really. Um, I wonder what it is. It's definitely gonna be Kyogre and maybe in general maybe Maybe tap a cocoa would make sense, but we are gonna see the incident. Oh, that's fine. Um, I Think what I'll do is We did get a competitive boost kind of tempted just to stay in Well, go for the Z move into the Kyogre for sure and we'll try and do we focus blast? the incident Yeah, we'll give would give wiggy tough its moment in the Sun or the rain As we've got now, let's go out on when you need it Okay, um, yeah, let's let's focus plus we're gonna get we're gonna get picked out for sure Moseley move Kyogre might protect but I'm hoping it doesn't I'm hoping it feels like it's gonna be fine. Oh, what have I done? I give it focus No, no focus blast. It's got focus. Oh, what is this? Okay, regardless of what wiggly tough is doing We've totally botched up the moveset there as well as the Laurentus. So this should do a nice chunk to Kyogre Definitely weak in that water spot at least it's gone for the origin post. Let's see. How are we take this? Okay, both both survive. We're not gonna go for a focus blast again. We're gonna go for a thunderbolt into the Kyogre and We will switch into We'll switch into him on top Thunderbolt from wiggly tough. Come on wiggly tough. You want to get in knockout? You can do it You can do it my little friend, right? Maybe the Kyogre protect here, but I don't know. Maybe not But if it does and the wiggly tough gets taken down, it means yeah We get we get we'll get a free switch into the Laurentus. So I mean it's we're still gonna be in a Fine position going to the next turn Docus laureate. It's gonna be into hit one top. I think Yeah Okay, so you check button activating but that's all right because it does give us the opportunity to just get Laurentus under the field and we can just super power Super power the incinero and we can go for the thunderbolt Into Kyogre Super power and thunderbolt and then we should be picking up a win for for our first match today Which is amazing, which will bring us to a record of one win and two losses. I need to just keep Keep a tally of how we do through the week just to keep keep things every great if we could finish today like level Level playing field that would be amazing. So there's the super power and get the boost Is the thunderbolt after a competitive boost?  I don't know what's going on with the animations in this this game It's weird like all the pokemon are kind of doing animations in between turns, which I've never really seen before So here's the malicious moussaint from the incinero Into Laurent is not going to do too much though. Um, and I mentioned some back to normal Should we go for the focus blast just for the fun of it? I think we should let's try Focus punch because it's going to be focus blast. Uh, we'll go for another super power I don't know if we're going to be able to take uh, flablets Well, we're plus one defense and then minus one attack. So maybe flablets I'll be surprised if we do Here we go. Nah, we can't take it, but this will probably proc a berry Oh, no, it's z move. There's no berry focus punch Wiggly tough you are the man you do You showing how strong you are with focus punch. Yeah, you don't need that focus blast You want the the focus punch is the one Here we go. Anyway, so we will change that that is a definite definite error on my on my end So apologies about that but it worked out in the end So I mean what we got to complain about nothing and it was a lot more it was a lot more me me Then uh, then the alternative so We're off to a victory today and our first one, which is always good Like I say victories are few and far between in this series and when you get them The feeling is amazing. It really does. It feels so good to get a victory. So we'll um We'll move on to our next opponent. Like I always say, hopefully it doesn't take too long. Let's pick some Music, uh, should we go with gladian? Yeah, let's go gladian here. Um, yeah But the victory in this series feels like 10 victories in a row In our normal series. We got jackson up next. So we'll hop over to you and see what we've got So another requires Okay, it's like Ray quasi like flavor of the week this week. Um, I don't know if we're ever going to face anything But Ray quasi, I hope we do tomorrow Let's pray and hope anyway. We've got jackson He's playing a team of incineroar type of finny requires a crowbar stack attacker and the zernius So again, our trick remords probably our best one to go for here. I'm going to lead with him on top Dawn wings to cross ma. We've got to worry about that crowbar for sure Um, I'm going to go laranthus and I'm going to bring Wiglet of exactly the same four again it's going to be difficult Because there's the inclusion of the zernius here and we know how Hard we struggle against zernius without any real checks against geomancy, which is a bit of an oversight But just one of those things but uh, jackson's ready. We're ready. Let's get into this one here today And I feel like we can maybe do something I don't know it depends. It depends if we can get a trick room up And we can nuke the zernius with our zinus Maybe that's a way for us to beat zernius And then the rest just takes care of itself crowbar's zernius okay It's a bit like the last game where it's like the Rayquaza and The crowbar where we're like Could we could we go for trick room here? Or do we just go for the photon geyser into the crowbar? crowbar's definitely gonna be sash, isn't it? Um I've got a fake other zernius And it's just it's it's whether or not I Go for the trick room here or not Uh, I feel like trick room here could be good, but I also feel like My opponent's paying attention. They probably think we are going for a trick room But they might think we're altering our cosmo as well. So they might go for tailwind. I'm gonna go for the trick room again See zernius protecting we're gonna see tailwind. Come on There's a fake out blocked No No No Jackson Jackson, you're too smart. You're too smart for this game Uh, I mean one of the things we could potentially do is go for a help in hand Uh z move into the zernius it's gonna get the geomancy off But there's z move help in hand should still do a good chunk of damage. So there's the helping hand Uh, let's see what we can do super fine into top It means as well we can get top out to get top back in again with this eject button. So It's nice and in many ways we'll get wiggly tough in it might it might prove quite useful Against the boosted zernius. I don't know what the cards are like against it. There's the geomancy absorbing the power And proccing a power if it didn't have the power hope could you imagine? But it does That would have been the best because then then we get it But i'm still feeling kind of confident that this z move still gonna do a crazy amount of damage helping hand boosted Let's see It takes a class it would be it would be it'd be amazing it really would but Probably means we can't protect as well with the only song man Look at that damage.  That is ridiculous Oh, I can't believe that We'll go for a dozen game. We've got the fairy aura boost Um, and we'll try for the photon geyser. I guess Um Do we go for it into the crowbar though or do we go for it into the zernius? Because I think wiggly tough definitely survives I'm going to go for the photon geyser into the crowbar because then we can potentially yeah, we should take this moon blast We should And oh no, he's got cross poison, but we should take this we should be able to clear the field Come on to hit me The hype is real here. We get the crowbar Come on. We need this dazzle to do enough We need to don't let us down at this point, please Yes The tough is enough Here we go. Here we go friends. Okay, so we're we're getting rid of zernius there Our taunt wears off which is good Uh, we've got two pokemon to deal with and now we know one of them is going to be the Rayquaza Potentially the other one is is oh, it's tapu finny. I was going to see it in center all tapu finny's maybe a little bit better to deal with than um Then the insineral to be honest because we can potentially get a trick room up It's going to be difficult to get trick room up though. Um It's really going to be difficult to get a trick room up Wigglytuff hasn't had any boosts yet. So I think what we'll try and do is switch Wigglytuff out into top And we will go for a protect with nukosma Uh, it's just tricky because I think like even a nice wind at this this point takes nukosma down And the likelihood is the finny could have skulled. So that's another thing Uh, it's going to be really difficult to close this one out. I don't know if we're going to be able to do it We'll see we'll see, you know that like anything can happen from here. We can play it a little bit smarter than what we maybe Maybe being able to do just normally. I don't know. I don't know what I'm saying I just want us to win this match after that getting rid of those two pokemon so Rayquaza intimidated gets a belt to stream up after mega evolve and will protect us nukosma um Crunch, okay Indicating that it maybe is the southwest nature's madness top of voids. Okay So let's try fake out Rayquaza. Um and go trick room Indicating that the finny's got nature's madness its other move is going to be Icy wind which it has to go for now. I think because nature's madness won't get It's heel pulse Okay, we get a trick room up then That's pretty that makes things so much easier for us Um, and if that is a southwest ray, we can get laranches and knock it off. It doesn't game it Um, okay. Okay, uh Do we just do we just nuke into the Rayquaza then? I think we do. Um, we guys being helping hand into that slot because I think it's a southwest for sure uh The finny probably just heel pulses it though, which is the problem but I really need wiggly tough and laranches on the field now That does nice damage. Okay, nature's madness fine with that I'm on top still sticking around. There's a crunch. It will take us down. Um But I wonder what a helping hand dazzling gleam will do to the ray from our wiggly tough I don't know if it's going to be enough Um, but we need to get laranches onto the field because we need to help in hand leaf blade the finny I think that's the most important thing now to get rid of the finny because the finny is the one thing that can Can help heal A little rayquaza over there. So we'll go for that. We'll go help in hand leaf blade that should be enough to get the finny Even without the boost we should be getting it. There's extreme speed going to be into top. So laranches actually oh, wow It's not even enough to get the top That is enough. That is enough all we need now is a knockoff Maybe even a close combat from this range. We'll get it. So uh Super flying weak pokemon I'm doing a number on on this rayquaza the ultimate flying pokemon Come on. Let's I'd love to be able to like the knockoff. We'll get rid of the assault vest We'll probably see an extreme speed, but we just see the forfeit We get a victory. So we've got double victory. We haven't had one of these days for ages my friends It is a pleasure to grab and tie up the score going into tomorrow's episode. So that is great. Um two wins today Obviously had two losses yesterday. So mary's up perfectly making it a great end to the show today Which is brilliant and takes us with all the momentum going into tomorrow's episode Now we did say at the start of the episode we have those four bonus buttons that we can activate We'll see how the episode goes today before we make any decisions going into tomorrow's episode before we change things up But let me know in the comment section. This is important You guys let me know what you would like to see maybe one two or three or four buttons activated Tomorrow, that would be great. Let me know in the comment section and we'll make some decisions when we come back tomorrow But have a great incredible fantastic rest of your day my friends and I'll see you all for the next episode tomorrow So until then take care and bye. Bye