Hey everybody, tonight we're debating Socialism versus Capitalism and we're starting right now. For another epic debate, if this is your first time here at Modern Day Debate, wanna let you know we are a neutral channel, hosting debates on science, religion, and politics. And wanna let you know, no matter what walk of life you're from, very serious folks, politically left, politically right, middle, you name it folks, we're thrilled to have you with us, thanks for hanging out, and also wanna let you know if it's your first time here, or hey, maybe you've been here many a times, but you've not subscribed yet. Well, now is the time to do so, so you don't miss this debate coming up tomorrow night, as Vosh and Endernax are going to tango one-on-one, and in fact, on this very topic, Socialism versus Capitalism, so if we don't settle the issue tonight, well, we darn sure will tomorrow, so hit that subscribe button for a reminder so you don't miss it when it's live tomorrow night, and also wanna let you know, folks, did you not know that we have a podcast? And I have been so encouraged, we've gotten so much positive feedback, and the downloads, people have apparently it's been really useful, so we're really excited, folks, please do, post your phone right now, and if you can't find us on your favorite podcast app, let me know, shoot me an email at moderndaydebate at gmail.com, and I will work to get on that podcast app for you, as we want that to be a value to you, we hope it's useful and thanks so much, so we are also linked for our podcast in the description, right under the guest links, who we are about to introduce right now, so they, as I had mentioned, have their links in the description, and we wanna give them a chance to share what you can expect to find at their links, so thrilled to have you guys here, seriously, I'm so excited for this, this is always, it's just gonna be in a great mood to get to do this, and so we'll start with Steven, AKA Cider and Port, and so thanks so much, Steven, for being back with us again, the floor is all yours, what can people expect to find at your link? Well, thank you so much for having me back, James, obviously, well, what people can expect to find at my link, I mean, it's a socialist soy boy getting wrecked with vaccine logic, I guess, no, I stream every Saturday and every Wednesday, 6 p.m. Eastern, I talk about various news stories, I react to people, so if you are on the right and if you disagree with me, you can find me at my link, join in, and I'll have you on the show, we can talk about it. You got it, thanks so much, Steven, and Leo, glad to have you back, and what can people expect to find at your link, my friend? Yeah, James, it's great to be back on your fine channel once again. At my link on my channel, I mainly focus on science education and science communication with an emphasis on advanced concepts in astrophysics, cosmology, and quantum mechanics. Just yesterday, I premiered my first video in a new series where I explained some of those advanced concepts, and I explained what a wave function is in quantum mechanics and what they're used for. I do a little bit of politics, I'm gonna try to keep it to 70 to 80% science on my channel, but I will be doing the typical leftist soy boy politics that Steven was mentioning, so you can find a little bit of that there as well. And you can also find me on Twitter at Leo Philius, the way that you would see it on the screen, I don't know if my full name is on there actually or not though, so. So many soy boys, I love it. All right, we'll kick it over to CJ. Thank you for being here again, CJ. The floor is all yours, what can people expect to find at your link? Yeah, and thank you again for having me, so my channel is called The Cynicog. It's a poor man too of cynic and synagogue like the Jewish place of worship. I do actually two things on there so far. Monday, Wednesday, Friday, I do a news show that I call The Watchdog, kind of focuses, you know, talks a little bit about the United States, but focuses more on things going on in the Middle East and in the sort of like global religious sphere.  And those are the two things that I usually do on there. I'll also randomly post, you know, some debates on there, things like live chats or open rooms, all the things of that nature. But that's my main thing is I like, you know, apologetics, like faith stuff, studying religion, politics, I want to get into more history and philosophy. And yeah, and that's the basics of it there. You can find it again at The Cynicog and any other sort of social media or video streaming I'm on is also going to be The Cynicog. Well, that just reminded me of something. We're going to come to you next Maddox, but I do have to say I just asked you guys, basically, we're looking for if you happen to identify as woke or and you're like, what does woke James? What do you mean? Here's what I mean. For example, Gina Carano, I think it's pronounced the lady who is working on the Mandalorian Star Wars TV series just got the boot. If you are like, yeah, I was like, fire her. If you take that position, for example, that's like a correlate of wokeness, right? So let us know though, for real, if you happen to be what a lot of people would refer to as woke, let us know. Shoot me an email at moderndatabate at gmail.com. We want diversity of thought here. And frankly, we don't have a ton of like full woke people. So want to let you know, let us know if you are and hey, we want you to have representation here. So with that, John Maddox thrilled to have you back as well. The floor is all yours. What can people expect to find at your link? I appreciate you always having me on for some more fun and formality. James over my channel usually focus on atheism versus theism creation versus evolution, intelligent design versus the variety of ideas on how we could possibly exist. And actually this Sunday night, I'm actually holding an after show for the post James tour beat down a professor Dave on a biogenesis. So that should be pretty fun. You'll definitely want to come check that out because that's going to be definitely epic. But yeah, if you want to go to my channel, come and bring ideas and thoughts and logic and rational expectations of the reasons for your existence. Gotcha. And with that, we are thrilled to have our guests here. We're going to have our socialist guests go first. We appreciate them. And so want to remind you friendly reminder to attack the arguments rather than the people. And we're going to give them a roughly 12 or so minute opening statement to split amongst themselves. And that's flexible. They need a bit more. But with that, the floor is all yours gentlemen. Alright, well, yeah, we had said that I will be kicked it off. So there has been a noticeable increase of fake outrage or smoke and mirrors surrounding discourses online of late. That is because in my humble opinion, the conservatives of the world realize that they cannot compete in a free marketplace of ideas and not get stomped on. And so they have effectively created controversy to get mad about. No, where was this clearer than in the amen, a woman pearl clutching outrage of early December, I think mid December, or the five months last year where we spent talking about where trans people should be allowed to pee. Capitalism has failed for the average American. It has been a centuries old experiment that has utterly failed. Only in a capitalist society will you find 45 to 60,000 Americans dying every single year because of the lack of basic health care. That was a stat that was pre COVID. I can't even imagine what that number is now. Only in a capitalist society will you find college tuition as high as it is college used to be basically free in the United States. It used to cost 45 cents in a packet of pop tarts to go to college in California and now it costs 60 grand plus for a degree. Only in a socialist society or at the bare minimum borrowing from aspects of market socialism will you find health care free at the point of service. Meaning that if you go to a doctor or to the hospital, you can leave your wallet at home because you won't need it. Only in a socialist society in the workplace are your managers and their managers appointed through the democratic process. Only in a socialist society will you find college free at the point of use. Only in a capitalist society will you find the cost of $8,000 to give birth which is sometimes bankrupted a family of four. Only in a capitalist society will you find the cost of the ride in the wee woo wagon to be $1,000. Only in a capitalist society will you find its citizens rationing insulin only to die a month or so later anyway. Only in a capitalist society will you find new mothers with zero paid time off by law if they get pregnant. These things and more only exist in a country that is overridden with the interests of capitalists with no consideration for the welfare and the well-being of its citizens. Health care is one of my favorite issues to talk about. It's always fun but it's kind of often painful. What I'm arguing for basically is the package that the ultra wealthy get in the United States currently which is the deluxe special edition gold platinum extra ultimate tier health care plan. That plan would be given to every single American. Nobody has to choose or should have to choose between feeding their family and giving their family health care. Nobody should have to choose between buying insulin or letting a loved one die. Now a very common retort to these points is well you just got to pull yourself up by your bootstraps which apparently you don't realize is a phrase that we made up to make fun of you. It's an oxymoron. It's physically impossible to pull yourself up by your bootstraps because they're beneath you. I could go on but with the time running out and to be more than fair to Leo I'll move swiftly on. In the United States today you have socialism for the rich and rugged individualism for the poor. To explain this I thought that I would have to go back more than a decade about about 0809 during the subprime mortgage crisis in the Great Recession but instead I have to refer to less than a month ago when we see millionaires and billionaires crying on live TV because they might have to sell one of their holiday homes after a merry band of reddit gamers stopped a hedge fund from fucking GameStop into the ground. Now and only now after decades of them using market manipulation to get rich are they begging for a form in the stock market to and let's not make any mistakes this is just me you and every other person in the live chat from getting rich using the exact same type of tactics that they have been using for years.  That is the end of my time I'll leave it over to Leo. Yeah that was that was based in Redpill. So as Steven outlined capitalism has failed but it hasn't failed for everybody it's only failed for you know the majority of people the reason for this is due to the way that that capitalism is systemically structured it is designed as a system to exploit an underclass of citizens to the labor that they provide to firms for the sake of profit. Now what I want to do is advocate for a specific type of socialism and both me and Steven agree that this is the best form of socialism moving forward that is called market socialism. This is a form of socialism that preserves market forces and market incentives yet still yields a democratized workplace which is the main reason that I'm a socialist because I just love democracy. I think democracy is the best way for everybody to collectively govern themselves. Most of the first world nations on this planet are democracies. Why are we not extending the democratic system into the workplace? Why should it only exist within a political system? I see nothing wrong with it existing in the workplace. Unlike some other socialists I wouldn't argue that socialism is unjust because if we look at feudalism or if we look at chattel slavery or even the the most recent ancestor so to speak of capitalism or tantalism capitalism is better than all of those systems. I don't view capitalism as a system that needs to be replaced. I view it as a system that has outlived its current use as society has continued to move forward. I do not view it as something that needs to be replaced but as something that needs to be transcended. So how would I go about implementing market socialism? I would argue that the best way to do so is to work our cooperatives that is business firms that are structured in a way where the average worker is allowed to democratically elect all of their managers, their supervisors and their executives. What this ensures is that these people that they're electing are running the businesses in a way that is beneficial for all of the people working out of business. People like Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk are worth hundreds of billions of dollars yet what labor power do they contribute to the firms that they work at? Very little if any. Throughout the majority of 2020 Jeff Bezos spent most of his time on his private yacht circling around the Pacific Ocean. He wasn't working in his manufacturing plants. He wasn't driving his trucks. He wasn't delivering any of the goods or services that people require from Amazon. His workers were doing that yet he is worth hundreds of billions of dollars and these people struggle to make a living. The workers of some economic firm are the people who generate all of the value that firm sees yet they do not share equitably in the profits that the firm gains from their labor and I see that as immoral. Now there are a lot of criticisms that people have of worker cooperatives so to touch on those most of the work on worker cooperatives has actually shown that they are a viable method for for economic firms to utilize in ensuring that everybody that is employed at this firm shares in the profits that their labor generates. From John Penceville at the Stanford Institute for Economic Policy Research he argues exactly this. He states here that much has been learned about worker owned and worker managed enterprises. As a generalization it does not seem accurate to describe worker co-ops as technically less efficient operations than the capitalist firm. Co-ops do face governance problems arising perhaps from the differences among worker owners but when workers remain sufficiently homogenous they may look forward to a long life. On top of that Virginia Peroten at the University of Leeds also argues that worker cooperatives tend to be a net benefit operating at a level of of productivity and efficiency that matches oftentimes exceeding that of the traditionalist capitalist firm. He states quote the evidence to date therefore is remarkably consistent in showing that the key feature of worker cooperatives increased worker participation never causes performance to deteriorate in these firms contrary to many theoretical predictions across countries firm samples and methodologies studies find greater participation in governments is a factor of increased productive efficiency in worker cooperatives both in itself and perhaps in boosting the incentive effects of participation in ownership and or profit end quote. John Penceville again working with Ben Craig at the Federal Reserve Bank of Cleveland also argue that worker cooperatives well they may face some problems because there is no system or no structure that will be free of all problems argue the same thing they state quote there are several reasons why worker co-ops may operate more productively than corporate firms first a co-op mitigates the agency costs associated with the corporation's division between ownership and control worker owners are likely to be much better informed about actions taken by managers than our non-worker owners indeed in the plywood co-ops study below managers have sometimes complained of what they regard as excessive involvement by the workers in day-to-day managerial decisions however the workers view their behavior more constructively under such a system end quote and finally from Georgian and arts and Jun Kim at Iowa State University they also argue in favor of the structure of worker cooperatives and the benefit that they can have to society arguing quote existing empirical evidence provides somewhat mixed results regarding the effects of worker ownership and decision making rights on firm productivity research focused on worker cooperatives tends to find positive productivity effects for example Bartlett et al 1992 compared the performance of worker cooperatives to private firms using a set of Italian worker cooperatives in light manufacturing matched with similarly sized private firms in the same region and sector they reported higher value added per worker in the cooperatives relative to the private firm indicating that the worker cooperatives were more productive end quote so i would argue that the best way forward for socialism is to worker cooperatives and the worker cooperatives are at least as successful oftentimes more so than the traditional capitalist firm and for this reason i would argue that socialism would better benefit the majority of people allowing them to live their lives in a more free and fair manner and allowing them to actually receive a larger portion of the benefits their labor generates is that not what we all want do we not all want to profit equitably from the labor that we provide to the economy i would argue socialism is the best way forward for that and i will yield the remainder of our time to our moderator thanks very much leo we will kick it over to our capitalist team now so cj and john the floor is all yours cj do you want to go first with me too um either way i don't care i'll go first if you want tell you what i i have a relatively short one i'll be in prompt you and sure we'll get on that all right so wow those two opening statements amazing that'll be a lot of stuff we've got to cover in the uh discussion of everything i just listened to is either a bunch of standard talking points that are don't go beyond the surface level or what we're supposed to do from leo all right wow that's gonna be we have to dive into that in great detail because you didn't really talk about socialism i'm pretty sure that worker cooperatives already exist in capitalist society so i'm not really sure where your point goes on that but honestly where to begin ladies and gentlemen you know this was a last minute uh fill in pinch hit for the one and only smoky saint and obviously 45 minutes not a bunch of time to prepare but as they say you got to come up with something and rise the occasion um but honestly how much time is actually needed to debate a subject that is wow almost as naive as my opponents apparent worldviews and that is the calamity of socialism uh you know the immortal economist thomas saul neatly summed up the failed political and economic dumpster fire when he said socialism in general has a record of failure so blatant only an intellectual could ignore or evade it or in the case of my opponents uh you know they want to claim there just hasn't been enough time to prove its success you know let's rewind in that line with that let's rewind to the 1830s and hear the words of the immortal alexis de toqueville democracy and socialism had nothing in common but one word and we just heard this word a lot from leo equality but notice the difference while democracy seeks equality and liberty socialism seeks equality in restraint and servitude of course it seems that many people in modern society become brainwashed fools and will attempt to argue semantics and you know some crazy hybrid version as if this hasn't already been attempted or dismissed the inevitable outcome of an overbearing government control of the means of production and its ultimate destruction of innovation no they will claim it's for the good and democratic socialism or market social in this context is a fine wine they'll just get better with age it is ironic of course that this foolishness has been pointed out for well over a century and i think one of the best summations of all of this and this the irony of the things that our socialism is uh was said by and rand of atlas shrugged quote there is no difference between communism and socialism except in the means of achieving the same ultimate end communism proposes to enslave men by force socialism by vote it is merely the difference between murder and suicide end quote i find it telling that generally the most adamant proponents of socialism fall into two specific camps either those who stand to gain from preventing competition in this context a jeff bezos or those who have never done anything to be competed against now on one side you have these kanimaki of alien types that are taking advantage of the gullible and the desperate and on the other those who wish to just be handed survival at the cost of freedom and the potential to gain true wealth and true ultimate freedom and uh you know i would say that in the last hundred years few men have faced this truth in a more profound way than the one and only winston church hill and he defined it very very well quote socialism is the philosophy of failure the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery but the modern socialists say we oh we're having all around us healthcare and roads police food stamps unemployment the list goes on and on of all the supposed different things of that are great benefits of socialism and yes we do witness those things and we watch the politicians kick the can down the road to avoid paying for them we watch inflation slowly rise in the day in which these fantasies come true or come do not come true inches closer by the day you know in many countries this moment of truth has already arrived and suddenly those things magically vanished the defaults cause skyrocket skyrocket inflation and now they are eating garbage to survive not figuratively literally you know we're talking about uh increase in insulin costs and well let's i look forward to going down the healthcare debate because there's so many different aspects of that but all of this really surprised nobody for it's always been the outcome of the socialist fairy tale and to summarize what i have my whole point here this was very eloquently stated by the iron lady herself margaret thatcher quote the problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of others people's money and i think that as we go through this debate you will see that the points that were made by these immortal characters of fame and wisdom over the last 200 years will become more and more apparent as we go back and forth with the talking points of our opponents and i yield to my my partner cj all right so um um thank everybody obviously for being here with us today uh there's obviously going to be hopefully a fun conversation though i guess it's going to be a little bit quicker than anticipated but that's certainly all right um so i want to just get into some of the basics of my points um so i don't want to obviously respond to anything said by leo or um steven quite yet just because that will come during the back and forth i just want to kind of make my own case here for a uh capitalistic system and or against a um socialist system so first and foremost what do i mean by capitalism i personally tend to be free market capitalist or laissez fairest people like to call it um but that is not necessarily what capitalism is capitalism simply suggests that the means of production exchange and distribution are owned privately and used for profit and gain um i would quickly point out that on that definition alone capitalism is in fact just the way that markets naturally function if one does not have an outside source um you know trying to mess with them in fact the very nature of the term free market implies that if you let the market be free it will be capitalist capitalism therefore is actually not an invention of any one philosopher but is just simply the way that economies have worked throughout time think of the trade and barter system the trade and barter system i have a certain product i want to exchange this product for some other product this product belongs to me and i am allowed to do so and exchange this product for some sort of a capital gain we do so and there you go that's essentially the basics of capitalism now of course this has been a thought of much deeper and we have people like adam smith and john lock and all these other guys who have actually thought much deeper on to like economic policies the the invisible hand and things like that things that you know cave people would have no concept of but the basic tenet of capitalism is hey this is my stuff i'm using my stuff to get some kind of gain i want some of your stuff let's trade for it right and this is just the way that economies have functioned since the dawn of time it's the foundation on which any functioning economy is built uh and when we have a system of full fledged and um you know uh well worked out capitalism as we've had here in the united states and in britain and other countries across the globe in the last couple hundred years we see an unbelievable level of economic prosperity not only for the ultra wealthy getting people to you know multiple people to the billionaire level despite the fact that that was something that was once unheard of but also indeed for the quote unquote peasants like myself who would be considered one of the lowest class in the united states and yet still get three course meals just about every single day um i have my own apartment i am able even able to have a wi-fi and i'm having a debate with you guys here today on wi-fi that i pay for by myself with nobody else contributing to my health right that is an achievement of capitalism in the modern world technological advancements and booms are an achievement at least the ones that we've seen recently in the last couple hundred years um in the industrial revolution cyber revolution right these were results of capitalism getting cars in everybody's home making sure everybody had a microwave giving you know everybody all these great and wonderful things that we just basically take for granted today these were all results of capitalism um and what we see therefore is a long history not only of capitalism being essentially the base foundation on which all economies are based the free market at least right being the base foundation on which all economies are basically successful but on top of that a very very high rate of success with free market capitalist systems particularly in our own country and in countries that we tend to be uh associated with abroad like written and so on right on the flip side of that there is not a solid track record for socialism socialism if you're just going to define it simplistically like i defined capitalism simplistically would be common ownership of the means of production exchange and distribution now what exactly that means can of course differentiate uh or can be differentiated rather very as the word i'll be looking for from socialist to socialist uh it can be in the form of state ownership as a lot of Stalinists and people like that would suggest i can also be in the form of a level of more um democratic like the workers co-ops that we saw in leo filius's uh examples right the thing is those when we have these kinds of economies economies that are planned from the top down or that economies that have some level of control in in the common people right rather than in the individual people who are trying to actually get a some level of economic gain we see consistent failure all throughout the world right whether it's the hardcore versions of communism that we've seen in stalinist russia or mausetong's china or palpots cambodia and so on and so forth or lighter forms of communism that have or excuse me of socialism uh that have been seen in other countries like venezuela and cuba in places like that where it wasn't these necessarily extremely dictatorial systems although that kind of depends with cuba it really depends on the on the era of cuban history venezuela is a better example of what i was just discussing um and it literally is failure without failure if you know what i'm saying right there's not a single example in other words of economies where we do actually have long-term success from socialistic societies uh the best we get when we're actually asked when we ask our opponents to provide examples like this and we'll of course see if they provide a different one today is typically nordic countries but nordic countries are very clear that they are not actually socialistic uh if anything they might actually represent a form of social democracy but even that is highly disputable um and this of course comes from their own lips not from mine or you know some other right-wing talking point in fact i notice leo fili has just lifted his thumb up so at least on that we know the sides agree um so my question then to the people would be this if we have a system that not only is natural for markets to be in but also has a long history of success and we are putting that system up against another system that has no history of success long-term at least what in the world would convince you to ditch the one and go with the other the old quote is if it ain't broke don't fix it and i would say that that in a nutshell is why i am a free market capitalist it's not broken we'll obviously get to the whole capitalism has failed thing in the back and forth but it is a system that has worked to the unth extent it has given us absolutely fantastic luxuries things like chocolate bars and x boxes and even absolutely fantastic drugs with which we save lives right um and with that i would yield my time thank you very much from cj and maddox we are going to jump into the open conversation portion so we're going to go easy going at first as long as it doesn't go off the rails we'll let it keep going that way but if it gets too interrupty we will actually jump in and constrain it to two to three minute interval so gentlemen thanks so much the floor is all yours leo you look like you're talking but i can't hear you thank you for that my my mic arm was down three really quick points to kick us off here um maddox defined i would argue that cj had a had a more accurate definition of socialism common ownership of the mean production maddox was just off we've just straightforwardly wrong socialism is the socioeconomic i didn't define social i haven't finished i haven't finished you're just making observations i promise you said you said it was government you said it was government control over the economy that's not socialism that's statism socialism is the socioeconomic ideology in which the means of production distribution and exchange are socially owned democratically controlled by the working class socialism by its definition is democratic statism is whereby the state has substantial centralized control over social and economic affairs so the minute state has substantial control over the economy you are no longer talking about socialism you're talking about statism i did hear that uh cj also mentioned adam smith um i i did want to mention that adam smith and i believe this quote that i'm going to give us from the wealth of nations would have disagreed with leisafari economics he states quote but these exertions of natural liberty of a few individuals which might endanger the security of the whole society are and ought to be restrained by laws of all governments of the most free as well as as well as of the most despotic end quote and the final point that i wanted to make was um where cj was talking about free markets if we go back to places to times where like feudalism or even before that markets weren't really free in the sense that we talk about free markets today and just to add on to that market socialism still preserves the the the market forces and the market incentives that we see mercantilism for example which is what capitalism sprouted out of was was actually a bit statist the the many of the monarchic states that that existed under mercantilism imposed tariffs they promoted trade um there there was a lot of imperialism and colonialism there so i would argue that for the most part starting out most most economies really wouldn't have been free but i would also argue that in particularly and i'm going to wrap up with this particularly the version of socialism that me and steen are defending free markets do exist all right let's give plenty of time it sounds like maddox has something to say first and then we'll give it to well we'll give maddox a chance first and then maybe we'll go over to rib as well uh go ahead maddox uh well the literal definition from oxford is it's a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates the means of production distribution exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole okay so yeah political okay so political and economic theory okay so what do you think the social part and socio economic means okay so you literally stated that i was incorrect by making the assertion that there's government control in all socialist economies um it literally doesn't work without government influence of the in control of the means of production like in every single instance in every single instance that it's ever existed and actually been applied there has been government control of the means of production and i would point out too on on top of that you say that it by its nature it's democratic but that's not actually true i mean just look at the way that a public park for example is actually maintained it's maintained by a system of governance that we could obviously have democratically elected in fact in our country we do but that's not a necessity they're public meaning commonly owned meaning we all get to use them but a state does maintain them right so so there by no means does having common ownership or common uh access to something mean that it's democratic by its nature i mean i mean case in point in the united kingdom for example that wouldn't when they implemented socialism post world war two they literally nationalized industry yeah i was i was growing up i was living in england when they finally decided to privatize like bp version of telecommunication and a variety of other things because they were failing so miserably and the it's quite funny so interesting but now that i'm back here in the states when i when i listen to people we wrap up this point quick and then we'll kick it back um talk about these things from a idealistic uh hey if this if it was like this it would be great perspective when you actually look on a global level that has never been the outcome ever well socialism hasn't ever actually been implemented why didn't i predict he was going to say that in my opening statement yeah it's because it's true and to uh cj's point like public parks aren't aren't really um analogous to socialism at least not the socialism that me and steven are defending which is market socialism well and to be fair like that's that's fine that you can have a specific version of socialism but the whole reason you can have to have a specific version of socialism in the first place to defend to distance yourself from others is because you obviously recognize that common ownership can absolutely imply state ownership and that's that's what it's usually implied virtually every time a common ownership has been a thing it's been state and then the example of public parks is a perfect example of that the state owns that land we might have a democratic system of electing those state officials but the state does own that land the state for example also maintains our public education right that's what we mean by public or common or things of that nature virtually always now it doesn't have to be that way and i understand that you might actually want to distance yourself from something that agrees with that that's perfectly fine well we can address that but all socialistic examples we've actually seen have been an attempt to have it regulated at the state and i would argue that if you don't have any examples in the real world of what you're saying at least on a national level that's successful then it is all theoretical and kind of pipe dreaming at this point we do two points there let's let's give both leo and citer several minutes because there are a lot of points to cover so first thing is once the state has um taken control over the means of production it's just not socialism anymore like to just google the definition of state is um you'll see it's it did when the state has substantial centralized control over social and economic affairs so it just wouldn't be socialism anymore um in our governance yes i would argue that that's public ownership i wouldn't really argue that it's very democratic even within a democratic system but it's at least right now the best that we've got what was the other point that i want oh yeah um when we look around the world socialism really hasn't ever been implemented really in any form because again government owning the economy is just statism not socialism what we have seen though with what i'm defending what steven would defend is it's market socialism and i i if i remember correctly i cited four academic sources showing the success of worker cooperatives from numerous from the the lumber companies in the pacific northwest to companies in um in italy they've some of those papers will cite companies in vietnam from all over the world the worker cooperatives are successful so i would argue that yes there's there's a lot of success in worker cooperatives all of the academic data seems to indicate that well they they will still have some problems that they are just as oftentimes more so successful especially in terms of their efficiency their productivity and especially with regards to their the um the profits that they are capable of returning collectively to the workers than traditional business firms if steven wants to add anything he is free yeah so i took down several um notes from both openings uh the the kind of biggest one just because i can kind of see that this is kind of moving very very swiftly on it's at a very brisk pace um cj you would say the the drugs are are that's the uh invention of new drugs and this sort of thing yeah they're paid for by the taxpayers and then the pharmaceutical companies come and buy up the patents for them which they then have for about 12 years which they can charge whatever the fuck they want for them and then they can after oh sorry only after 12 years can they bring out age uh a regular version of that drug that they don't own so that uh you know the like poorer people in the society can get access to that drug so it's already paid for by taxpayers and then so we are taxed well i say we obviously i'm not literally included because i'm an iron but you guys are taxed you guys are paying tax or your tax dollars are going to the the uh the manufacturer of these drugs which are then bought up by the insurance companies which you which then they charge whatever they want so you're so you're paying even more so you're paying twice for the drug that you have to create because yeah so uh the last thing that i'll say and then i'll kind of pass it over for a little while anyway is uh maddox you had said that you were looking forward to a health care debate you won't be looking forward to it for very long something well you know you talk a big game bro let's roll okay so uh first yeah i'm not exactly unique in that aspect either now am i yeah okay so anyway um since you live in the wrong country for this so anyway leo um i'm not really saying what you are arguing in relation to employee-owned businesses like what do you what do you think sweat equity is and what do you think entrepreneurship is what do you think startups are doing where they give equity positions to the employees that get vested over periods of time and they have the opportunity for massive wealth creation through ipos or acquisitions like what do you think that is like that's not socialism that you're describing you're talking about already existing mechanisms of capitalism to enable wealth generation and for the expansion and growth of companies like oh yeah and i would actually add on that but yeah out of these examples of of worker co-ops all of these worker co-ops exist in capitalist nation what do you think southwest airlines is south down southwest airlines is literally a employee-owned uh major player okay hang on hang on so now in the context of publicly owned companies you're talking about voting rights and things of that nature okay what the hell do you think is happening in what what do you think is point of having voting shares in a illegal entity like that's the entire point now is there is there corruption that's being executed very often especially in the sec route of people being able to buy off government regulators and the influence of political bureaucrats into private industry enabling the continuation of those rich people taking advantage of their positions i agree 200 on that the but that's crony capitalism and that is over reach by government into the private sector which is enabling a lot of these things that you guys are talking about to be successfully implemented and perpetuated like if anybody's ever ever been an entrepreneur and i have been i've both invested in companies and been a swanky employee and i built my own my own firm and i worked my freaking ass off i gave equity positions to employees they were doing great work and gave them shares of profits like i've been there done that and i don't understand how you think that is remotely a socialist position when that is the literal epitome of what happens in free market capitalism that's not what i'm arguing for that's why so you then what are you arguing for then because you're talking about employee owned profit sharing like what the hell is that you let me explain it i can't profit sharing is not the same thing as democratized control over a firm those are completely different ideas okay just because you know that's seems that you know it's being happening in many ways i respond can i respond i promise to come back there are numerous companies that allow their some of their employees to own shares that doesn't give them the ability to dictate how that company can get collectively dictate how that company is operating if they're voting rights it does what they don't you yes they do many many entities do man publics publics offer stock options to their employees but their employees don't get a vote on things because they don't own them enough shares to do it so no that's just wrong market socialism that's the corporate structures yes but there's other corporate structures that don't that do enable voting rights am i going to be able to respond because i'm you're naive at any end of basic business a couple of minutes from leo and then i promise we'll come back to the capital aside second point worker cooperatives can exist under any system i've never denied that they could exist under a fascist system if you wanted them to however when all firms are worker cooperatives and thereby democratized the entire economy is democratized that is what socialism is so that is what i'm advocating for the slow movement to all firms in an economy being worker cooperatives which would be democratized control over the economy so who's going to be required who's going to enforce the necessity of every single private business being in that model who's going to make that happen oh i would assume the government but the government has a hand in literally any so you're going to say that the government is going to the argument that there can't be a system that doesn't have some authority that maintains that system is just absurd so are you arguing that that the bylaws are you suggesting by laws and every individual authority is going to have to maintain that are you suggesting that the bylaws of every single private entity should be governed by politicians and bureaucracy is that what they wouldn't they wouldn't be governed by politicians what the hell do you think who's going to come up with the bylaws that's are they going to customize them for every single industry you mean like they do now you think you think that right now bureaucrats write the bylaws for the operate the day-to-day operation of business is are you suggesting that in some instances yeah they do um so what would be doing is some public private private private private i'm talking about private industry cut off we're going to we're going to and i'm gonna give a chance to respond to yo leo hold on a second i'm gonna give leo a chance to respond and then we do have to one slow this just a bit down because it is rocky but we also eventually have to work our way over to steven and cj so go ahead leo so i'm not saying that a company with four people working at it needs to be a worker co-op it pretty much already is four people working there they're all going to be talking with each other on what they want to do but when you have 400 people working for you you should probably be a worker cooperative that way all of the employees at the firm have the ability to to engage in the day-to-day operations and management of that firm so what i'm saying is that there needs to be some measured cut off at which we say past this point you are going to become a worker cooperative the idea that utilizing some authority to maintain that system is wrong would be an argument against capitalism because there is an authority a system of authority that maintains that system you can't have a system without some authority that maintains the system it's been that way since there's been humans on the planet some authority has maintained the system that currently exists there's a couple things i would have to say on that actually first and foremost and this actually kind of gets us into i think one of the key differences in what you know what a uh one second before we go into that i just want to be sure that steven gets to go right after you cj because we haven't heard from steven in a while okay um so you know when we're talking about things like capitalism versus socialism right and i pointed out how it's the difference really lies in are you privately owning the means of production in exchange or are you commonly owning the means of production in exchange if you look at the oxford definition that was actually already provided by maddox right and i have to stress this because you know we keep saying this know if it's state controlled by definition it's not social and that's just not true the community as a whole has almost always been the state that's just a fact right that is the way that has been maintained throughout the dawn of time and in fact that's usually what we have considered a state to be so no by no means is socialism inherently something that is democratic being controlled by the community as a whole and being controlled as by the state and sometimes be one in the same team one in the same thing excuse me very often are one in the same thing in fact there are numerous people who would consider them to be literally saying the same thing with different words um the other thing that i would point out when it comes to these things right and you um you say well there should be a certain amount of state control and there's always going to be some level of state enforcement because that's just the nature of how systems are going to work but actually i didn't say in a free market capitalist society the exact opposite is true the whole point of free market capitalism is to say no we're actually going to let the state or leave the state completely out of it or at least as out of it as we possibly can and get this the economy itself to kind of run itself the market to run itself that's the whole point of having a free market again just look at the name it's a free market a market which is free if you start adding state controls uh and it doesn't really matter what those states are whether that's actually regulation or some level of subsidy or something like that you're no longer talking about free market capitalism right you could be talking about some form of capitalism just like you can be talking about some form of socialism but if we're talking about a free market then no actually there is no system that is in place to force it to happen if you want to have a worker co-op in a free market capitalist society you absolutely can't let's kick it over to sevan thanks so much uh yeah so um it was something that lpp said at the end of the the last address towards me you said it under your breath but i heard it um you said that uh you see it's kind of funny because you said this in the last couple of debates that i have with you as well you keep talking about the fact that i'm from ireland dude the motion of the debate is not socialism versus capitalism in ireland it's not socialism versus capitalism in the uh us it's socialism versus capitalism so it doesn't matter what fucking country i'm from hey bro i was very most united states i'm sorry i'm talking i'm talking have your listening ears on please have your listening ears on please listening ears on please what we are going to do is we're going to give maybe a couple of minutes to steven and then i promise we'll kick it right back over to the socialist or capitalist side so go ahead steven two minutes is yours thank you james um i was almost actually wrapped up uh yeah this it doesn't matter what country i'm from i'm still more than capable of arguing this point because i believe that socialism is the better way to operate a society especially over um capitalism now you had said that you were looking forward to having a healthcare debate john let's go okay cool let's do that bro um so and by the way when i was talking about in terms of you being in the wrong country is i was specifically referring to your assertions about healthcare in the united states so do i think that healthcare in the united states is all fine and hunky dory oh absolutely not man isn't that is that kind of surprised you that i don't actually think that our healthcare system is perfect i absolutely not however i happen to know a few of the reasons why our healthcare system has collapsed in terms of its efficiency and why the cost has been skyrocketing and it's all due to over regulation by people who are pushing socialist policies so for example case in point um are you so um steven are you aware leo are you guys aware of the artificial monopoly lines that have been created around all 50 states let's just say i'm not okay so you don't understand you don't know what that means in the united states i said let's just say i'm not you really need to put your listening ears on if you're having a debate so do the um would you agree or disagree that it's going to result in skyrocketing costs if you're able to maintain an artificial monopoly would it result in skyrocketing costs if you're able to maintain an artificial monopoly is that what you said that's what i said no so monopolies haven't always resulted in increased costs when there's no competition sorry i misunderstood you yes sorry cool so um are you aware of the fact that um the united states congress at the behest of lobbying um created artificial lines around each state of the united states and created new regulations in which unlike every other possible type of insurance in the united state you are not allowed to buy it across state lines a few minor exceptions lobby by who it's federal law now the lobby for it the insurance companies that are profiting from it it's interesting crony yeah crony capitalism is what capitalism is inherently okay but who is being able to enforce the authority of it it's the government regulatory regulators and it's people pushing by the way the people pushing for this left on the government side we're the left not the right ironically but oh they weren't leo did you even know what i was talking about did you even know what i was talking about in terms of artificial monopoly lines i've heard of that term i don't know okay okay so you don't so you kind of heard of it but you didn't really know who pushed it okay that's awesome now in the context yeah because i can make a monopoly so if you so if you actually go and look and i've actually researched this if you actually go and look you'll find that almost every state in the united states has a one entity that controls 80 to 95 percent of the market share in that individual economy yeah that violates that violates the german antitrust laws and the variety of the regulations but because it's being done artificially inside of a state individual state versus on the national level they're being able to circumvent it as a result of regulatory influence by people are being bought and paid for as they try to control government versus what if those rules were removed from the equation and free market was allowed to take over again let's think about this in relation to every other type of insurance why is it from an actuarial perspective i can get greater coverage with a higher probability of need to have a payout on all sorts of other types of insurance and yet it costs me dramatically less hmm why is that oh wait we have artificially created monopolies as the result of a restriction artificial restriction of the free market by that quote-unquote authority okay so it's the monopolies that the insurance companies again that are operating on profit-based oh my god do you got that hold on though that's that's a straw man though that has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not it's capitalistic in fact literally no no Leo doesn't understand basic economics this is probably understand the entire time if a market is free again if you are starting to get the government involved it doesn't matter if the corporations are the people who are getting the government involved if the government is getting involved the market is no longer free that is simply just by definition right and leo i just want to say you've been doing like a pretty solid job arguing this honestly please don't start being dishonest i actually like that is but like sure go off no it's not me going off on me i'm saying straight up that that is a dishonest argument for my argumentation and you know it you are fully aware of it right you know for a fact that we're aware of because you've been listening to us you've been we've been sitting in this whole time arguing for a free market not lobbyists going in and getting the state involved on behalf of corporations we have but why did they do that is it to increase their profits why do they want it doesn't matter that's irrelevant but wait hold on it doesn't matter what system allows them what system gives them the incentive what system gives them the incentive to focus solely on increasing the profits actually any market system would so that would include your not our social market you would still have profit incentives no it wouldn't yes you would that's the whole point of maintaining the market there's a difference between a profit incentive and maximizing profits to the benefit of shareholders and executives which is what capitalism is uh okay hang on hang on so if you have a employee co-op if you have a co-op are you not going as the employee owned entity are you not going to want to maximize the profit for all of your employees exactly maximizing what world do you live in bro actually no not necessary so you don't want to be profitable for your employees well there's a difference between being profitable and maximizing profits but you said you knew more than me on economics so okay so whoa hang on so in terms of maximizing profits um in a free market there there's a reason you have a maximum amount of profit you can make is because how much people are willing to pay for your product or service this is a basic principle of economics okay so you're going to maximize profits in order to grow to hire more people wait you don't know what to be innovative oh no hang on have you ever run a business what does that have to do with anything wait so it's a very serious question have you ever run a business wait hold on the only people that can know about economics no i'm asking if you have why does it matter it's a very direct question have you already yes or no i'm asking what have you ever tried have you ever looked at your at your pnl what tried to figure out if i do i want to hire more people how many okay and by the way sidebar and to hold this whole thing you guys talking about in terms of like oh if you reach a certain point then you're no longer going to be able to be a private entity in the same in the traditional format you're gonna have to do this okay obama care as a prime example at that time leading up to that stuff my company was my i'm going to use a point of your whole like let's put a peg on stuff so as a point my company was skyrocketing at the time okay if i if we hit if we were at 29 employees when we hit 30 all sorts of obama care regulations we're going to kick in if you get to 50 there was a whole new set again you know my business partner and i sat down and we thought about it for a long time we looked at all the math how much we're going to have to increase our profit and we'll be able to pay for all the additional costs the liabilities that we're now going to be we're not we weren't going to be susceptible under 29 employees or under 30 employees once we hit that there was a whole new level of liabilities that we now kicked in that we didn't have the ability to have any control over so what do we do we decide instead of trying to grow for scale and to have our profits be based on volume versus net value per customer we made the pivot guess what happened we actually said hmm let's keep the very best of our team our the highest caliber of our employees and the best talent and then we're going to minimize we're actually going to reduce the size of our company and only go after very very high dollar customers because he all of a sudden it was no longer going to be my benefit personally and as a business and for my employees to be able to try and continue to scale in that manner what the hell do you think is going to happen with private industry and private businesses if it's like oh hey business owner you've been busting your ass to get to this point but if you keep growing any more you're going to give up the equity that you've been working your ass off and no longer be able to control over what you've dedicated your life to that is a idyllic fantasy land that doesn't work and in every institute it does and I cited four academic sources showing its success do you want me to go over them again just jump in just very very quickly you're you're you don't even know what you're talking about wow amazing right okay so i love that the last sorry leo just just one second I loved it the last kind of time that I talked it was the start of a healthcare debate we didn't hear a single argument against socialized healthcare system and now your argument with leo but something entirely different do you have an argument against the socialized healthcare system addicts yes or no yes okay can you present it because you didn't the last time uh well I mean when you look at what is happening in the UK as an example with national health they closed 30 wait what that system is greatly successful really they closed 30 of their hospitals two years ago okay that's a result of and and the national yeah but national health is vandal and white go google it go google at the head of the healthcare ministry I would like google it when I could talk to people that live in fucking england dude okay oh really okay did they did the doctors did the doctors in the united kingdom go on strike yes or no yes they did okay John if you don't know why google it tell the tell the live chat why that was one of the major issues um the lack of technology that they're being overworked and underpaid hello what's a bro what's the average salary of a doctor in the United Kingdom okay so I asked you to tell the live chat why and instead of telling them why you lie to them how about you google it right now yeah because that's not the fucking reason why is that's why you like so you just call me a liar google it improve that i'm a liar why would we go to google when we can talk to people that live in the country that deal with the health care system there's there's public statements from the ministry from the government on the in line with these facts so oh so now we trust the government so so the national health that is the socialist government run health care organization that says they're bankrupt um you're claiming that when so this is like the surgeon's right there's like a socialist he did you don't see them what the national health the national health care oh we're talking about health care aren't we are we talking about health care yes or no we're talking about health care but that doesn't mean the english is a fucking socialist country you donkey are you saying you were talking about health care correct you you said socialist health care did you not i said a socialist health care system so hang on hang out so you don't think that the national health care system in the kingdom is a socialist health care system i didn't say that dude i wasn't a socialized health care are i i i you i said i said i said i said the england was not a socialist country no no we talked about social health care healthcare is it socialist health care that's what we were talking No, we're we're we not talking about health care. Yes or no. Wait, hold on. Do all of the doctors own the hospitals that they work at? No, we're talking about Socialist health care. It's not socialist, is it? If the people working in the industry don't like me. No, I'm not. Health care system name a health care system. That's not government government run. Hang on, hang on. Socialist health care system. We're not a socialist health care system. Are we getting out? There is no socialist health care system. Well, hang on, dude. What world do you guys live in? You said you said you would accept the worship of a socialist health care system. Are you suggesting that the United Kingdom would not consider NHS? Listening ears, listening ears, what we're going to do is we are going to hear from CJ because he has been gone for several minutes or 10 minutes. So CJ, we'll give you a chance to jump in if you know where the conversation is. And then we are going to kick it back over to the socialist after that. So CJ, the floor is all yours. Glad you're packed. Well, so I mean, my understanding of where the conversation got is a little disjointed just because of the drop there. So I do apologize for that. But I guess one thing that I would just want to suggest because, you know, so we have the, I know you guys were going back and forth on health care. So the numbers of what's going on in the British health care system is not something I'm particularly familiar with. But I do know some different comparisons of the government operating something here in the United States versus companies operating something privately here in the United States. And those tend to virtually always be more beneficial on the side of private. For example, private education is well known to be much better than public education. FedEx is something that people use well before they're going to use the postal service, you know, and so on and so forth. So I don't understand why we would expect it. I mean, Uber versus public transportation, right? I don't know why we would expect it to be different in a situation where the government now controls health care. And by the way, I would point out too that I definitely do not want the government to have control over health care because frankly, I don't trust people, right? There's been plenty of people all throughout the Twitter sphere, some of them being elected officials who have said very plainly that in their care, certain folks would be dead because they don't like them. And that is a fear not just from like a left wing or right wing or anything like that. That's human nature. People are evil. And as a result, I do not actually want the government to have control over my health care and to have the potential potentiality to say anything about whether or not they think I should or should not have health care because of what I may or may not believe or do with my private time. I kind of like the incentive of some guy being like, okay, well, doesn't really matter what I feel about this guy. He gives me money. And so therefore, I'm going to take care of him. It just, it makes more sense to me. You know what I mean? It gives me a little bit more faith in the system, shall we say. So, can I ask you a quick question? I wanted to ask it earlier, but you had, I don't know if you like went, went to the bathroom or something, but, and this is a little bit off topic. I just really, really quickly. So I, the definition that both you and Matt excited for socialism comes from not the Oxford English dictionary, but from Oxford languages, which is not the same thing as the Oxford English dictionary. And from the same source, this is definition of statism, a political system in which the state has substantial centralized control over social and economic affairs. Are you arguing that that is a form of socialism? Most socialism that has actually been tried is absolutely status. Okay, so then you would agree that it is statism, not socialism. Those are not necessarily contradictory. They literally are. They literally are. No, they are not yet. They literally are. And this is why really aren't those one. The state owns the means of production in the other that is democratized amongst the work, not to know the definition that we shared here that you just said was a legit definition is not democratized. I did. I'm in ownership. It was okay. Encyclopedia Britannica. So I didn't actually say economic doctor in the culture. Can I respond rather than private ownership or control of property and national resources? These are not these are not like actual sources. Like if you want, it's like what we did Britannica is not a source on social as hell out of here. You just like I've read just like I've read and hang on. So advanced theoretical physics and they get the definition. Okay, anyway, when I look for the definition of Britannica is wrong to the people that actually invented it like Karl Marx and free Greek angles.  So if you read socialism utopian and scientific by free Greek angles, you will learn what socialism is.  They're utilizing colloquialized definitions, not the actual one as laid out by the people who invented what the ideology is who are a source to a national health could ever provide national health. Some from Vox at the center of the UK system since the national health service founded in 1948. The NHS goes beyond a single payer healthcare into true socialized medicine. The government doesn't just pay for services. It also runs hospitals, employees, doctors. The system is financed through taxes. Everyone is covered and some private insurance is rare, unlike in St. France. I mean, the everybody who's actually living in the real world, not this idyllic fantasy land that you're living in Leo that you're living in recognizes that this is what actually happens in the real world. When it comes to wait, wait, most companies utilize you mean most what happens in the real world is that the vast majority like literally if we take the OECD, the organization for economic cooperation and development, which is an organization of the 35 most advanced countries on the planet. One of them does not have a universe healthcare system. Can you tell me what country that is probably us, but what do you think? Yeah, every other country has significantly better healthcare outcomes with significantly less money being invested than we do. Why do you think that's a lot of those outcome? How many sources do you want to look at the forces? Do you want? So how many are you going to respond? So are you actually going to argue that these like third world countries that have socialized mess? Are you actually going to claim that they have higher survival rates for prostate cancer for breast cancer for all of the right diseases?   I'm hearing. I literally mentioned the OECD. What do you do? What are you? Why are you mentioned? Okay. So let's let's okay. Okay, just answer the question. Just answer the question. Do they yes or no? That's not relevant to what I said. Just answer the question. Yes or no? Why would I answer it when it's not relevant? Because I'm not, I'm not to make it real. I'm not to make it relevant. We're shortly going to go into. So what you're saying is you're admitting that you don't think you know, I'm actually going to say, let's look at the comparison between the United Kingdom. Don't seem to get it.  We're going to go into look at him here. So we're going to go into Q&A shortly. I do want to give CJ a chance to respond and then we'll give Steven a chance to respond. Thank you guys. Appreciate your gusto to say the least. So no worries, nothing personal, but I do have to just kind of once in a while jump in. So we're going to give it over to CJ quick. And then we're going to give it to Steven quick. And then we do have to go into the Q&A because we do want want to let you know folks. First of all, Maddox is jumping in with like four hours of sleep and also have to has to wake up at an obscene hour tomorrow and Steven is in Ireland. So he is far ahead of us into the night or early morning or three in the morning. Thank you. And so we'll go over to CJ and then to Steven and then we're going to jump into Q&A where I'm sure we'll hear more from Leo and Maddox. Thanks guys. Absolutely. So, um, so I would say just a couple of things. So the first thing I would say is if we want to narrow with this down to Marxist socialism because Marx unlike what was said here is not the inventor of socialism him and then angles their communist manifesto in Das Kapital are definitely what we base the majority of modern socialist thought off of. But for example, Thomas Morse utopia was considered to be an example of socialism and the Mazduk from the fifth century was considered to be an example of socialism and so on and so forth. So it isn't actually true that Marxism is an encapsulation of all socialism. If we do want to say that we're actually going to have this argument based off of what Marx's ideals are. Well, Marx wouldn't actually consider himself a socialist. He would consider himself to go farther and be a communist. He considered socialism to be a transitionary state where he could get to a point where there was indeed no state and of course no cash and things of that nature, which I don't believe is what you're actually arguing for here today. If I'm not mistaken, you do actually believe a and the necessity of a state of some kind and be in market socialism and therefore the existence of cash and things of that nature. So I just want to clarify. I mean, you seem to suggest now that by the way, I understand your frustration with people not actually listening to people like Marx and stuff like that, but just to be clear, I have actually read both Das Kapital and Communist Manifesto as well as a lot of his personal writings. I wouldn't call myself an expert by any stretch of the imagination, but I do certainly know the man, his philosophies and what he felt about things. And you don't seem to be arguing from a Marxist perspective. In fact, I was surprised even here you bring up Marx because I thought you would want to kind of retreat away from Marx in this more market socialist way that you're going. So why now would you be wanting to defend I guess that position when that position is his position on socialism like I said is as a transitionary state to get to stateless society and cashless society and classless society and so on. If Stephen is willing to feel the question, we haven't heard a lot from Stephen and so Stephen, if you're willing to feel that question will give you a chance to answer. Otherwise, we do have to go into Q&A shortly. Yeah.  It was in the opening that, you know, we're wanting to have a debate on health care. It never really happened apart from kind of poking jobs. We also said that in a country that was run by the NHS that there was also a private health insurance company. Yeah. If there's private health insurance companies in a system that is meant to be socialized medicine, that's not socialized medicine. I literally said they weren't there. I'm sorry. I'm so literally said they weren't there. Look at that. I'm still to claim. I don't listen to you. You literally didn't listen to me. I'm talking. This is amazing.    Which one is I'm still talking and then we are going to jump right into the Q&A. So you got 60 seconds. Stephen and thank you so much, Jonathan. I had to, but look at him go. Okay. One second. Yeah, look at him go. Okay, go ahead. Snowflake. Yeah, look, I mean, look. I came here tonight expecting kind of, you know, arguments against socialism apart from, you know, like what we got was mentions of Venezuela apart from the fact that you didn't say that it was sanctions by the United States, the Cripple, but that's okay because I get that you're pushing in narrative. You know, look. I could go on and I could kind of run out the clock. I'm not going to the last thing that I will say is that I am super Lee and I mean super Lee surprised that Maddox didn't have to take a week off so we could fundraise for this debate and go to the Q&A. James, we're going to jump into the Q&A with this first question. Let me just sure be sure all of you guys are unmuted so you can respond. And so we are starting with Sphinxer of doom. I said I'm doing a closing statement.  I'm doing a closing statement. Let's see. Who do we have start everybody just talk to me.  So Stephen clearly doesn't actually pay attention because you haven't to flip his hair too much to expose his ears to pay attention for people actually saying I literally stated that unlike other countries United Kingdom didn't have private insurance actually in the 90s when Bupa was starting to grow and private insurance was trying to make a stake in the United Kingdom. There was massive government regulation that came into place to block that from actually happening because there was so much delay in the access to healthcare that people were looking for new alternatives and to privatize the healthcare industry in the United Kingdom actually got shut down by the government ironically but in the context there's overall conversation both Leo and Stephen inside of their emotional talking points that they spew out ad nauseam they clearly didn't actually listen to the points that were being made and obviously don't live in the real world of what actual application of business principles and building of wealth and creation of opportunity and changing of the status quo. It's quite fascinating and I hope that some point to these children grow up jump into the Q and a can I can I everybody got to give a final word but I can literally make it like 20 seconds sure why not so socialism and statism aren't the same thing marks and angles definitely laid out what socialism is there are numerous works after them socialism is inherently Marxist but there are different forms of it and finally yeah I was surprised that we didn't get into more of a debated healthcare and I was also surprised that my opponents didn't actually address the whole work of cooperative issue which is an issue or address any of the academic sources I cited next up want to say thanks for your questions folks are going to jump right into the sphincter of doom strikes first saying worker cooperatives don't scale the most successful ones require allowing outside investment to grow and remain competitive IE more capitalistic capitalism doesn't preclude co-ops. Yeah I never said that it did you can have an entire an economy that is entirely market socialist and have outside investments from individuals into worker cooperatives or other worker cooperatives into worker cooperatives like that's like I said market socialism is socialist and where the economy is democratically controlled by the workers but it's still and this is the key part it preserves market forces and market incentives got you know I tried this we must go to the next one we have so many questions you guys I hate to do this but Germania says question for all is there at least one pro to your opposition's side please be clear in your response and if you're able to since it's for all four of you is kind of like four questions if we're able to do it in the most short and pithy way because we do have a ton of questions. I mean in the sense that conservatives are kind of typically in favor of like a smaller government yeah I mean I don't like that you know the Patriot Act is a thing I don't like the fact that the government can what can warrantlessly spy on its citizens and yeah I'm trying to keep it short and pithy change some promise I'll just leave it at that. Thank you. I would say while you know I would certainly offer respects to my socialist opponents I personally don't find any redeeming qualities in socialism as an ideology. I apologize if that's a little harsh but it's just my opinion. Gotcha. I would say that one quality that I would find that would be more beneficial under a capitalist system than a socialist system would be the maximization of profit so that generally comes to the detriment of the workers through the exploitation of the labor power that they provide to the firm without being equitably benefited from the labor that they are providing. Gotcha. John. If you maximize profit you can pass through more incentive and more income and more opportunity to the employee base like. Gotcha. That doesn't actually. Thank you very much.  Nice grin next face your super sticker double-minded in Colyri 1798 says respect to Maddox for chipping in at the 11th hour. That's right. So thank you John for jumping in last minute on four hours of sleep operating at best on 50% brainpower two cells furiously turning the cogs to keep the machine chugging along. I didn't know it was going to be an insult. There you go John. Oh okay. It's very it's very painful to listen to these dumbasses who clearly don't comprehend the point. The irony the irony. Stop before we make sure we must move on sphincter. Hey so I have never claimed to be a quantumologist. So why don't you take that on going? I'm aware it's not a real word. It's one is an insult.  Let's go. All right order order. All right. Here we go. This one coming in. You triggered Maddox you guys hold on a second. You gotta go to the next one sphincter of dooms has social try again.  All right enough. We're nice gentlemen. So nice. We have sphincter of dooms says social ownership is by definition by this the state the workers or a combination of both saying socialism is only by workers is a is simply incorrect. Well I would invite them to read socialism utopian and scientific by free Greek angles as well as read some works on marks because once the government has substantial centralized control over the means of production utilizing the same source for the definition that CJ and Maddox used. It's now statism not socialism and statism and socialism are not synonymous in any way. Gotcha. Maynard saves says no Bobby Dazzler's here except Leo Philius is a compliment. Now if you watch. Yes. If you watch the curse of Oak Island and you know who Gary Drayton is you'll know what he means. If you don't. You can be I'll try bread to the langle. Oh boy Maddox's twin brother in ideology says chocolate bars with beans picked by child slaves. No you want to know what though. Hang on. No I love that. I am so happy brought that up. I've only just started. I said let him finish. He says Xbox is made by Chinese workers in S. E. Z. I should know what that means.  Go capitalism. So those aren't actually arguments against capitalism because capitalism require that you have slave labor. In fact capitalism can very often have no slave labor at all. Right. We obviously have slavery illegal. Why does it exist. Here's the key about that. Here's the kicker about that. No. No. No. Purchase. Nestle chocolate. I don't purchase products made by people like for example Nike who make products in soy in soy shops and sweatshops. I don't purchase things from Disney things of that nature.   So go ahead and lay that blame at 30 seconds 30 seconds response to the technology technology. I'm only gonna grant you. You're you're blessed.  That's on you guys. All right. We got it. Thank you. We I can occasionally I'll give you guys responses. I already shot down Maddox to be fair. So. Okay. If you see to me as sparingly. So I'll owe one to the capitalist side. Go ahead Stephen. Okay.  You don't know that I buy Disney. You're just making assumptions. Secondly you said that you know that like you don't have to have child labor but your partner earlier said that you want that capitalism is about maximizing profit if you can pay children less than kind of is not maybe essential but definitely a part of it. And it's definitely not a part of socialism with which which I'm advocating for you give the last word to the capitalist I'm going to respond now and so you morons do not comprehend in the free market if you're not paying people because you can't take it and there's it's called basic supply and demand if you have a demand for the talent to be able to produce the product or service in order to maximize your profit that's how you maximize your profit is being able to offer the product or service where people are going to pay for and pay more for therefore we have to have higher quality therefore you hire better people and you pay them more money. This is so basic this is so basic I mean what world do you guys live in honest when we do want to I want to also mention because this came up earlier in the week and someone just brought up in chat we are working on getting the Sargon debate what happened was basically okay very embarrassing I've got egg on my face. I requested a debate with Sargon from an account that looked virtually the same as his last fake account on Twitter however it was a fake account of Sargon's fake account very meta but anyway I am working on finding Sargon so we can have him back on again and so thanks for your patience with that earlier this week but in the meantime thanks for your question this one coming in from Sphinxer of doom strikes again says real socialism was implemented in Catalonia through a worker rebellion and failed within two years. I don't know you have more on this don't think so because if they failed then socialism didn't get implemented did it. So if something. Wait hold on. Can't possibly be socialism ladies and gentlemen if it doesn't work. That's.  I hate I hate to do this but you guys we have a lot of questions and so by the way folks any sort of like silly or kind super chats I'll read it in the post credits after the show but otherwise I'm going to try to go for just the most serious questions this one coming in from appreciate it. Shigel wire says I'm Norwegian equinoor Norwegian state oil company so they are Norwegian and for equinoar which is a Norwegian state oil company which owns a 33% of the offshore continental shelf nor a region government owns about 73% of equinoar state capitalism. Got your next up this one coming in from Oh Brenton and Langell strikes again and they say lightning doesn't strike twice here he is he says anarchist Catalonia did not fail it was suppressed by the U.S.S.R. Catalan anarchists are an excellent example of socialism success. I from what I've read that the socialist rebellion did but I mean it failed because obviously the SSR suppressed it so what our interlocutors apparently don't understand is that if you try to do something and you fail then you didn't do it. So if you're working to implement some system but then you fail at doing that that doesn't mean the system failed that means you failed at implementing it that doesn't mean the system can't fail it just means that in that particular scenario you failed to implement the system. Gotcha I could be wrong on on both the Catalonia thing because I've only read a little bit on it. Gotcha and next let's see thank you for yours like reading funny stuff in the chat sphincter of doom says two years isn't enough to prove success Ponzi schemes appear successful early on too. I don't know who they're addressing obviously not me because I didn't mention anything. I know he's a capital of two years. He's a capitalist. I'm trying to remember who said but we may come back to that one. Brenton Langel says all capitalism is crony capitalism. Show me a capitalist who won't buy the government. I'll show you a fool who will lose his capital. Actually I could name a couple of capitalists who have not had any sort of instances of buying the government. George Lucas doesn't have any record of buying the government as true at Catholic didn't have any records of buying the government. I don't think anybody's ever had anything from Steven Spielberg buying the government. Those are all billionaires. I don't think we've seen anything from you know Kanye West buying the government. There are a lot of people in the but either way the point is you know all of that's actually irrelevant because the point is as far as capitalism is concerned is no that's actually not the case right if the market is if what you're arguing for is a free market then it doesn't matter if it's the people who who have a higher profit margin or who want to higher profit margins who are getting the government involved any involvement on the part of the government is no longer free market. That is just by definition not free market anymore. We must move on. Do appreciate your question. This one coming in. Let's see we'll give you a quick chance because I don't want to rush it too much. So who is that speaking. Those may more and more relation has been accelerating since FDR well started with really started to spike with Woodrow Wilson but accelerated dramatically starting with FDR and the ability for the government to be bought has been dramatically exacerbated through the continued expansion of that government control of the free market and the reduction in the actual free market has been executed by enabling bureaucrats to have control over the free market. It's amazing how people will see that next up. Thank you for your question. This one coming in from bug master says all of the top successful economies today are mixed market economies coincidence. Well they're actually not they're explicitly capitalist economies. What they do is they have many countries with the United States really isn't in this list have a strong social welfare system that that's not socialism. You the thing is is it isn't conservative is that if you want to get people off of social welfare systems just go to socialism because then they they wouldn't qualify for those programs next. What are you we must we must move on. I hate to say it but we do have a lot. This one is from sphincter of doom. It says regulatory capture isn't unique to capitalism though. Well what was the question again. I'm sorry I apologize. No worries they said regulatory capture isn't unique to capitalism though. Well it inherently no but when you deal with worker cooperatives they tend not to participate in the same level of regulatory capture that capitalist firms do because they're not only trying to maximize profits for a small amount of individuals to line their pockets. Dude. Okay. Hey I have to respond to this. I've got to respond to this. Well this is this may be one of the stupidest things I've heard all night. Okay. So the employees on this company have voted. Hang on.  I'm not talking for a while. The employees of this company or the owners. They have they have voted. No I will. I was actually I was interrupting. I was trying to stop. Hold on Maddox order you guys. I was trying to interrupt you Leo so that Maddox could respond. We'll give him a chance to do a follow up. So go ahead Maddox. So you don't think that the individual who gets elected by the employee owners of the company is going to make take view this is responsibility to do the exact same actions are currently being done by the CEO of whatever company right now in order to they don't country dude. I mean I can give you all the sources.  I've got to give Leo they're not they're really not. I mean as simple as that they're just not. So you're saying that you're saying that employees are not trying to be successful. Is that we guys we have to end it somewhere for this question. I got to give you saying they're not trying to be successful. Is that what you're saying. I heard your question. You keep arguing that success has to do with maximizing profits. It doesn't matter whether you're spending your profits or not. Are you trying to expand market share. Can you expand market share.  They're maximizing they're maximizing productivity and efficiency which will inherently lead to greater profits. We've got it. They're not suppressing. We're jumping. We're doing that in order to do that. We've humored it. Next up. Bugmaster says addendum what is the practical difference between a total monopoly in a free market and a state monopoly under socialism. Well socialism isn't controlled by the state again that's statism. That's why there's a difference between us. Juicy and crafty Heela says free market capitalism relies on political repression to push through free market policies. How was. Pinochet. Pinochet yes more democratic than stall. And then you know the rest of in was the remainder of that word. Well I mean that's just false. The free market does not rely on the how exactly did he word it exploiting or suppressing or something of a political class. That's just it's just not true. In fact technically speaking capitalism doesn't say anything at all about whether or not you exploit another political class. Perfect example of that is China relatively capitalistic and yet they definitely will exploit other people and in a very vicious dictatorial way on flip side United States almost equally as capitalistic probably slightly more so but only slightly and yet we're significantly freer. So I mean really that that in particular doesn't have much at all to do with the economic system itself. The economic system just simply has to do with your enterprise and means exchange. Wait next up wait. I do we do have a we have a good amount of questions guys. I hate to do this but we want to remind you folks that all of our guests including Steven a.k.a. Cider as well as Leo and CJ and Maddox are linked in the description. So if you're enjoying this you're like hey oh here more of them here more of those ideas you can by clicking on their links right now and Sphinx of doom thanks for your question said Singapore's health care system is more privately funded than the U.S. and costs less than most if not all single payer systems profits from insurance in the U.S. is 0.5 percent of health care spending. I know that Leo has like at least 12 studies on this so yeah. They've got a mixed financing system so it isn't entirely funded by the free market and that's how it actually is in a lot of universal health care systems. So that's I failed to see the point that's being made I guess. Whereas we have very very very little funding from the government compared to most other industrialized nations. Gotcha and very low. Dude you through I said very low as compared what percentage I'll give you the United States one question budget is Medicare and Medicaid funded. Well are you talking discretionary or non discretionary no I'm talking about the total amount of the industry. If you're saying this is not covered it wait but you're talking about government funding so are you talking about discretionary or non discretionary funding. Well there's both actually actually block grants you ever have block grants it's Medicare. Have you ever heard of a block grant. Questionary ever heard of a block actually let me check on that I'm pretty sure it's discretionary. I'm almost positive it's discretionary. Next up we got to give them the last word because that original question was targeting him Corey S. Thanks for your question says my multiple sclerosis meds are $6208 per month in the US and they say Obamacare quote unquote the taxpayer pays most of that same drug is one tenth that price in the European Union socialism quote unquote isn't the issue drug companies writing our laws are. The Poggers agree I could not agree with that statement more that could not agree with it more so there's actual agreement among sounds like maybe all four of you I don't know CJ here's a wild card what do you think well no I mean I don't I don't have any disagreement the only thing that I would say is that I do think while certainly there's a lot of criminal activity straight up criminal activity going on as the pharmaceutical companies I would also say that the answer in my opinion would be we do have to meet them somewhere right in the sense that in order to produce these things there does have to be some level of profit margin what happens a lot of times is groups don't have any sort of a profit outside of the United States and so they very greedily don't get me wrong just completely skyrocket their private profit margin in the U.S. to try and make up for it now I'm not saying that's a good thing but I am saying that I do think both ends of the both extremes there are problematic in my opinion. Next up. One of the first executive orders by our new president was to undo the executive order which forbade the ridiculous prices for like diabetes medication for example so now just what had been lowered has now skyrocketed again thanks to a undoing of that executive order next up and he's a socialist and a communist very weird it's almost like he's actually a centrist it's almost like he's a moderate right-winger because you must jump up Mark Reed thanks for your question says nice debate Steven Leo and CJ had a great look at this backhanded compliment for Maddox had a great debate with plenty of well-made points please try to refrain from interrupting Maddox it is tiring. Who is that your buddy Mark Reed. Mark Reed next up Jim Benton thanks for your question.  Oh my it'll be a change but I suppose he could do it. Speaking of speaking of debate even if you would have a lot of money with me let's do it bro time response.  All right next next you won't so much soy. Speaker of doom thanks to your question said would either oh these are my favorites a call out so would either side or import or Leo be willing to debate this topic with me in a future debate. Who was that that's sphincter of doom. Which topic is it this topic this topic. Oh sorry sorry sorry. Yeah. Yeah. Juicy I mean yeah I mean if if it was okay with with James obviously if who was it James. Sorry who was the question from being sure of doom. Yeah if if you know he was looking for someone else preferably not Maddox to team up with them. Then I'm sure you then and if you were okay with it I'm sure that me and Leo will team up again. I'm okay to go one on one. Appreciate your question from Danny. Oh wait let's see they miss. Oh Jim Benton asked is there an after show. I think math whiz math pig sorry prefers math pig math pig is hosting one I saw and we're willing to also. It's the rage not because she. Oh okay it's the rage. So I pinned that at the top of the chat at one point. I'm willing to pin it again if it's in the chat I'll keep an eye also folks want to let you know no matter what side of these issues you're on we're willing to link an after show and so let us know if you want yours linked we can pin it to the top of the chat or put it in the description if you get it to us before the debate. Shigewire says Maddox has the social maturity of 14 year old Jose Maria or is Mandarita formed Mondragon in 1956 without any external private funding world's largest cooperative as of today with 80,000 workers Maddox and it has that is probably that was dressed at me Leo not you so. Apparently just like my opponents you don't listen the person who asked that question didn't comprehend the fact that I said multiple times I have no issue with co-ops if you want to do it I got no issue with that whatsoever so I'm not really sure what y'all's points are you're acting like I'm somehow against the premise I'm not I'm against it being the forced model of economy I don't have difficult that is to comprehend I'm not laughing you have only laughing at Leo I don't know if you knew he was muted but Danny thanks for your question says at least we all agree that the debate showed anarchism won't work. It was fairly off the rails tonight I'll admit that next up we have math pig says after party on the rages channel oh there that you're right okay and sphincter of doom says if it failed it couldn't have been socialism quote unquote is simply relying on on falsifiability that's not what I said to be fair to be fair. Aliophilius did address that and clarify a little bit. However, I do want to take this opportunity to say something real quick for the lilyophilia say something I just want to say Catalonia was not suppressed by the USSR if anything you could suggest they were they were suppressed by Spain specifically fascistic Spain and I'm not going to say that that argues true you know very well against them but I just wanted to clarify it was some misinformation around I looked it up and it's the Spanish who went after Catalonia not the USSR nonetheless got you so I'm going to just just really really quickly about just eight seconds I'm going to refrain from commenting because what I've read I'm assuming is inaccurate because I feel that Brent Langell who commented on it earlier is probably more informed on that than me and he informed me that I'm just like wrong on what I said and I'm willing to take that correction so I would I would defer to somebody who knows more and I trust what CJ just said that it was the Spanish that were involved this is accurate information. Next up Justin thanks for your question said maximizing profits is why manufacturing costs are moved to go to countries with slave or sweat labor with pennies to the dollar. Yay capitalism woo. Well once again that is not something that necessarily has anything to do with capitalism itself so in other words slavery law right you can have a capitalistic system that has slavery and you can have a non capitalistic system that has slavery slavery law has more to do with like what you have as far as your legal system is concerned right so if you have a system where you have outlawed slavery for example and actually enforce that which to be fair the United States does not right I and I think hopefully we can find at least some agreement here I would personally be behind a full full blown prosecution of you know we mentioned the chocolate companies Nestle for sure full blown prosecution of everybody involved in the slave trade there. Agreed. Yeah cool and I'm glad I'm glad we agree on that but I but I would you know argue that if we have laws that are in place that outlaw slavery and are properly enforced then you know that is a completely a separate thing in a way from the economic system that we actually maintain unless we have like a surfdom or something along those lines where it's like literally slavery is a requirement of it. Gotcha and thank you very much want to remind you folks I got some more questions here but all of our guests are linked in the description so you can hear plenty more from them and this one's coming in from Sphinxer of doom striking yet again says 45 to 50% of U.S. healthcare spending is via government. Yeah that's discretionary spending. Next Gabriel K says money doesn't exist without ownership good job CJ. Well I mean of course but there's a difference between private ownership and personal ownership. Juzy and thank you very much for your question this one's from Corey S statement saying AOC got the drug manufacturer to admit they make a profit in the European Union. I've not heard that but to be fair if that's true then good on her. Juzy I think I remember reading something about that and AOC does actually a lot more positive things than most people who are would be would think that they're opposed to her would would would tend to believe. Well I know that her and Ted Cruz were the only two members of Congress who tried to get big money out of the government in 2017 so I'll give her that credit to you that's true. Gotcha and want to say thanks everybody for hanging out with us we appreciate our guests so much that we won have to let Cider get to sleep as it's about three was it 320 in the morning Cider each 20 yeah all right and also I hear that Maddox has to wake up extremely early as well with a little sleep as he as he is now so we want to say though we also want to say a huge thanks to Leo and CJ we appreciate you guys being with us as well it's been a true blast and so all of these guys are linked in the description folks I will be back in just a moment with a quick post credit scene to talk about some of the upcoming debates we've got you guys I don't know if you've seen our like our page for the channel we have been oh my goodness I am honestly beyond thrilled with how many epic new topics we have in the next couple of weeks so I'll be back to talk about those in just a moment but one last thank you to our guests we really have appreciated having you guys with us thanks so much Jim's and thank you again my pleasure love the energy that these guys have brought that was a really fun one I know that sometimes I probably look a little bit cranky sometimes we have to tell people to shut up but I actually do deep down I like it because it's like I you have no idea it's so much more fun this way it's so it's a good time when people are passionate about what they believe and so you know it's water into the bridge I can tell you in the after the kind of like behind the scene there as I said goodbye to our guests it was a kindness and warmth believe it or not you guys might be surprised to hear that but I do want to let you know that it's like hey we disagree well you know people are always going to disagree it's the nature it's the state of the universe in reality it's just the way it is you might as well get over it rather than wish that everybody just had to agree or not argue it's like well let him disagree let him argue we'll still be friends anyway we just have to adapt don't ask for a light load ask for a strong back and so anyway do want to let you guys know about upcoming debates you guys I am pumped I got to show you some of these so it is honestly going to be epic as we got a couple of things big things coming up I would say not even a couple first you guys tomorrow morning I am pumped for this I will be moderating this one tomorrow morning namely vegan gains will be debating a professor not only on the ethics of veganism but also on the nutrition of it so I'm excited about that I do love reading about nutrition and stuff like that in addition to ethics you know stuff like that but it's fun that it's kind of like a kind of a dyad or dual type topic and so that should kind of switch it up a bit and I'm confident these guys are both articulate it's going to be a very good debate so that's going to be a cool one also though tomorrow you guys I am sad and I won't actually be at this one but I do have to let you know about it because it's nonetheless going to be epic but Carissa she actually set this up and so I'm pumped that she did because it's going to be phenomenal and Carissa honestly is we just love her she's tremendous seriously an honest person a kind person so anyway on the bottom right of your screen that is Endernax and Vosh will be debating on this topic tomorrow you guys so they'll be debating on socialism versus capitalism you don't want to miss it you guys it's going to be epic unless you thought it was settled tonight and maybe you're like yeah you know it's settled that I got the answer now no no you guys will not want to miss this in fact I'd say hey hit that subscribe button if you want to be sure you won't miss it live as tomorrow it's going to be a blast and you guys we are pumped I've got to let you know about a couple others one is that I'll throw this in the chat so that you can look at it as it's true Darth Dawkins is going to return to modern day debate I'm not joking Darth is he actually converse said hey will you come back to modern day debate we want to host you and Darth said don't over talk me don't over talk me dude but basically that's not what he said but he did say I will not come back if James is there so I'm serious so basically Darth Dawkins I'm putting this uh Darth let me put in your Darth I'm putting it in the live chat and so Darth Dawkins will indeed be back next week against Mark Drisdale I will for sure watch it I guarantee you that because I'm just excited I can't wait to see I don't mind if I if I would be so lucky if he talks smack about me I would just laugh I we're excited to have him back I mean you know we love him so that you don't want to miss that is linked in the chat and I just I think I pinned it to the top of the chat but thank you guys I've got other debates to share but I do want to quick say hi cuz I'm so sorry for giving me for my manners or lack thereof and so Nicholas Kato strode thanks for being with us buddy glad you're hanging out here the more the merrier friend toss beatbox good to see you again says you got to turn your mic up when you're calling those guys out yeah that's true sometimes my mic's a little bit low as sad as it is a blue yet he's probably supposed to be the most user friendly Mike and I'm still figuring this thing out just like discord and spooky bed hair says I will always love these aftershow chats thanks spooky seriously that means a lot and the shepherds ambassador says you don't tell people to shut up enough well I can work on that doubting Thomas says James you're hilarious thanks that's kind of you human girl says hey yay stoked to have you here human girl and yes toss you're right and mark read you're right as well Carissa rules and is cool and so that is fun we really do appreciate sometimes like something comes up where I'm like oh my gosh I've got to do this paper Carissa can you jump in and help and moderate tonight cuz I just can't do it and she's been willing to do stuff like that which for me it makes it so that I can actually get sleep at night and so General Balzac says you don't that's because you don't screen your interlocutors remember no giggling James says manic pandas that's so true Cory asked good to see a buddy says I completely forgot about your aftershow it's a yeah a short post-credits scene because you know other channels are kicking off their aftershows but I do like to get to just hang out with you guys say hello and plug other upcoming events that we think you might get a kick out of we hope and so yes I am I tell you though stuff I'm excited about some of the other things that are coming up for this channel I want to mention this you guys not only Darth Dawkins which will definitely be fun I can't believe he's coming back I was like crazy but yes not only Darth Dawkins but Tyler Bluntman and Ariel Scarcella are supposed to come on next week we're finding the exact date for that that will be on a controversial political issue that starts with the letter a can't even say it during the stream and our dear friends apostate prophet and Nadir Ahmed will be debating whether or not the holy book of the islam religion is dangerous so that should be a juicy one you guys you do not want to miss that so I am just excited we've never had some of these topics in particular we've never had I have to find out with Darth and Mark Drisdale are debating I don't know for sure what the topic is and so let me find that out for you guys I got an email converse but yes and the George said said hey how you doing man I'm well thanks so much for asking friend it's good to see you it's been a while remember your debate with Alex you're a kind and patient soul we appreciate that buddy seriously Chris Gammett says woohoo hi James hey Chris good to see you man thanks for coming by and let's see a romantic fantasies remember no giggling oh it's so hard not to I giggle a little bit during this one I think I can't remember when but third finger from the right got some smack talk for Vosh well it's going to be an exciting one tomorrow though this same topic so Vosh and Endernax tomorrow night will be debating socialism versus capitalism so I'm sure the arguments will be different so that should make it fun and interesting seminal fan 291 good to see us at modern a debate get a headcount of all the socialist supporters so I can tell them where to send part of their income to me that's a clever so let's see want to let you know you guys couple of other things one the podcast I'm so thrilled that so many people found it useful that's encouraging it just keeps growing in other words more and more people seem to be enjoying it just based on the the downloads so I can see in the analytics the downloads everybody seems to have Apple podcasts is their default podcast app am I right about that let me know in the chat because virtually everybody not everybody I'd say like 80 maybe 70% of the people who listen to modern day debate on podcast which hey you can I mean how convenient is that you don't have to use your data you can just download it on Wi-Fi and then you can just listen to it whenever you want I always like I don't know if you're like me I listen to like podcasts and things all the time when I'm like cleaning or just traveling like biking or whatever just because for me it is like I don't know it's just nice to have something on and I don't always have my full attention on it but it's kind of like it's fun to like I pick up pieces from it and so but yeah we have oh this is nice to have your feedback here let's see Tussbeatbox says I'm on Spotify oh nice let's see let's we've got Colin Lorenz says I use Spotify or cast box actually oh okay that's good to know I used to use podcast addict and so I we do have a lot of downloads from there too though so that's kind of cool so yeah I will let you know that that podcast if you pull out your favorite podcast app and you find that we are not on that podcast app feel free to email me I can promise I will put in the application to get on that podcast app within 24 hours just let me it will give you can you give me 24 hours since I open the email but I promise I'm pretty good about emails so we really do want to get on every podcast app so you don't have to download a different app or something and so I think we're on about 20 now you can see on the right side of your screen let's see the right over here past the gentleman in suits nice past them you can see on the far right of your screen on about this high up we have the most popular podcast that we have downloads from namely Spotify and Apple podcast again Apple is just gigantic also we're on audible so if you have a like a one of the kind of a professional or the pro membership you can listen to us on there as well which is cool that's nice and we're on Amazon music and Pandora and iTunes and Google podcast so like we're all over the place which is exciting third finger from the right says try to reach out to Stefan Malinu for a debate he might not come because they kicked him off of the tube but it would be incredible hey that'd be awesome I would love it I don't know if he'd be up for it I've reached out to him before but probably gets a trillion emails so I can't you know hold it against them for not responding but I will no joke try human girl says what will the topic be with Darth Dawkins I'm not sure I really do have to ask converse about that but Caleb says MDD is beta pod we are oh thanks for hanging in there with me you guys so sorry those of our twitch chat I'm so sorry I am so slow to check the twitch chat but yeah folks I don't know if you know this if you're hanging out with us on YouTube right now want to let you know we are on twitch as well so want you to check that out that is pinned to the top of the chat as of right now and so want to let you know about that in case you prefer twitch and yes you guys check it out as we are really excited yes General Balzac we are on audible which is exciting and so hey hopefully that's convenient to you and what was I just gonna say two seconds oh the twitch chat you guys were saying what a podcast your you enjoy let's see stripper liquor says Stitcher is actually my favorite podcast app oh I didn't know that I we do get a few downloads on there it's like the fourth maybe the third or fourth most popular probably fifth I say I think it's like Apple podcast super popular Spotify probably the number two guy you know in podcast three podcast addict no joke for it maybe Google or Stitcher that I've got a check but yes stripper liquor says we at twitch are the red-headed stepchildren we are I'm so glad to hang out with you guys Zanos Carthage and poor Lucy Lausange and Nicholas of House Strode thanks for hanging out with us on twitch as well and yeah we're excited so I think it's do I understand right so basically want to let you know I think it's you guys know better than I do this is embarrassing but we if you you click follow on twitch right that's what lets you know if the person's streaming right and then if you do this the sub you get to use is it you know ads and you get to use emoticons I'm still learning twitch I'm embarrassed you guys hey bear with me boomer stuff over here but yes and let's see keeping up with the chat on YouTube as well Mark Reed says it's 33 degrees Celsius here absolutely lovely that sounds nice good for you buddy Mike Keenan says modern a debate Graham Hancock and someone quality debate thanks for letting me know about that I still have to learn about your friend Graham if you happen to have his link if you know he actually wants to come on that's one of the biggest helps is that sometimes like when people say hey I actually know this person loves going on other channels to debate and you let me know who it is that helps a lot because for me I send out a lot of applications or requests to have guests on and never get a response and that's okay we don't we're never entitled to host anybody but I would say that you know it can I can be more efficient if you let me know who you know is willing and wanting to debate and top of the chat tuss beatbox is right I pinned it how to use Amazon Prime for a free twitch sub so if you have Amazon Prime you can actually use your twitch sub you you have a free one that comes along with Prime you don't have to use it and it doesn't charge you extra or anything if you do use it but if you want to and you haven't yet you can use it on modern day debate which actually helps support the channel and it's basically each month is $2 and 50 cents which you're like hey is like was that even worth it James well if you do it consistently each month like let's say we got up to a hundred people that did it each month $250 per month like that's easily a plain flight like a flight for a plane because we want to do in-person debates again this summer that's in definitely like a one-way trip for sure and depending on where you're going in the US that could be a round trip so yes it could really help out and so highly encourage you to consider subscribing to us on twitch if you haven't already and thank you to those of you who have I've been super encouraged that a lot of people have and I was like thank you like that's seriously kind and Xenos Carthage says I will continue to give you Bezos bucks thank you so much for doing that that is really encouraging it means a lot and so we are excited about the future you guys and what was I gonna tell you poor Lucy says would be cool if we could get a host from him or something a host from from Vosh I don't know what you mean but if Vosh is back on twitch good for him I'm happy for him and doubting Thomas says Graham Hancock would be huge for you for your channel thanks for letting me know that I still I'm embarrassed to say I don't know who it is but I'm open and the George said said I'm just wondering what's your favorite debate topic to cover that's a great question I have to be honest you guys are gonna think I'm a kook but I'm gonna be real I love the bit of Bigfoot topic that was interesting I get a kick out of the paranormal stuff like that's fun to think about I'm not always persuaded by all the ideas of like what is it called aliens and UFO in abductions and and Bigfoot and missing 411 and all that I'm like I don't know but I do I have to be honest I do find paranormal like spooky stuff like that pretty interesting and yes but we are pumped you guys wanna what was I gonna mention there's one other thing oh if you happen to be if you consider like if you would be considered what a lot of people call woke feel free please do email me at modern day debate very simple easy to remember modern day debate no spaces no hyphens just modern day debate at gmail if you connect with us we are looking for people who are woke to come on and make their case we really do want to have everybody represented and so I don't know if is woke an insult I feel like it's like I don't know I used to see people say stay woke but then I think it was like it turned into an insult or something I don't know but let me know if you're woke and by that I mean a couple of examples if you're like hey man oh yeah actually I can pull up a list here so like the topic of how about height rigidity if you are like into that topic whether or not that's a real phenomenon and you're like yeah I think it is that kind of like is like a woke type thing if you think Gina Carano Star Wars Mandalorian star if you think it was good that she got the boot that she got fired probably woke if you were like hey man cultural appropriation I'm down with that and by down with that I mean like down with that we ought to not have it maybe woke I would say equity if you're like man I'm more about equity than equality if you're like I I'm like but versus a person who would say they are more on equality probably woke those are the topics we're looking for in particular as well as BLM and so we would just encourage you oh and reparations if you think that would be a good idea those are the topics that we mean when we say woke so feel free please do email me at modern data beta gmail.com if you would like to defend the woke position and so tuss beat buck says I'm pretty woke but depends on the topic if I'm comfortable to defend it in a debate let's see thanks for letting me know that and Datto Pepanda thanks for being with us that have you heard of young grippa 59 I don't think I have but let me know if they want to come on and depending on who it is and all that we maybe would do that so have Meldrum versus Erica says the shire crier that I've asked Erica and I think she's on the fence that would be a fun one I agree let's see big Don says how would you define woke yeah I mean it's really hard it's kind of like it reminds me of who was it and the philosophy of language he was like the Wittgenstein and like the trick of defining a game woke is it's like kind of a cluster where commonly I don't really frankly I'm not like super strict on like it has to be defined this way I honestly don't particularly mind how a person defines woke but I would say there are things that correlate with it correct that's my only guess I'm guessing yeah I mean like our it's funny our people offended but if I use the term woke I don't know what's against the rules but Madeline Powers big Don says Madeline Powers is a good person if you want someone who's anti BL in particular M that's a possibility Madeline Powers so do you know if Madeline Powers likes to debate I don't know who Madeline Powers is but I'm like hey maybe I don't know we are pretty open though we do want everybody to have their voice here on modern day debate if we're really going to be like a diverse platform in terms of ideas backgrounds it's like we need diversity of thought we need people who are woke anti woke you name it and so let's see manual let's see says if you let's see I I don't exactly I can't I can't take sides so spooky better says I'm woke but you'll need go fund me to afford my fees and manual says I love young RIPPA who is young RIPPA and do you know if they want to do debates and so I don't know Larry let's thanks for your plug man we are on discord folks so if you like hanging out there I'm embarrassed to say I'm still just learning how to use discord sorry guys it's hard but we do hope you enjoy our discord if it's fun general ball sex says I do want to run with another cancer culture debate though I'm against so probably not who you who you're probably I'm probably not who you're looking for um let's see maybe and the George said says any Flurfs need smashing I don't know we're like we've done so many fatter debates or like that's one of the reasons why I want to have some of these woke war debates and I it might be like a segment called like the woke wars where we do different woke topics and so that could be fun but yes we just basically open to flat earth but we're like being more like you could say more seldom in our approach in terms of how often we host them and the George said James versus Carissa who's a better moderator but who would moderate it yeah we'd have to have Converse moderate that one but I I I have to say we're so thankful for Carissa for the amazing work she does and for Converse I never mentioned Converse Converse has helped us a ton and I'm really thankful for that so I appreciate Converse as well and so Mark Reed says generally the woke culture people don't mind being called woke but some people are trying to demonize the term thanks for letting me know that and general Balsak says young Rippa is great I don't think he debates though good to know if you guys know of people who are like hey man it's a common like thanks Larry Lutz who says don't worry James Platium and I are keeping the place more or less civil appreciate that you guys do that seriously Platium I appreciate you as well if you're here we do appreciate you doing that for the discord because I know I'm an absentee landlord or something like that it's a you know so I'm sorry about that and big Don says do you think Bosch is woke I don't know I honestly don't know there are some things where I know that he doesn't like woke scolding I've heard him like kind of make a point of that where a lot of the woke what is the word I'm looking for he objects to the mob so but yes see we have general Balsak says he's got a huge channel big Marvel fan as well well hey you'd be crazy not to be glad he is a Marvel fan and so yes though we appreciate you guys I'm so tired you guys I don't know if you can tell I'm like kind of like wandering a bit but want to say we do appreciate you guys I'm gonna look this up young Rippa and we can ask we can say hey young Rippa would you like to come on and hey what do we got what have we got to lose it's worth a shot so let me just type his name in here into the old tube and then we'll see if I can find his channel okay yeah here he is and it looks like he said he's got a recent video on I love his channel art beautiful that's kind of what I would like to have in terms of channel art because this looks great oh I didn't know that you can like plug your twitch on your YouTube channel like the way he has it on the the link that you can click on on top of his YouTube banner good for him that's pretty cool I love it oh man okay but he had a video combating the left's political monopoly on entertainment juicy okay so he's probably would it be fair to say he's not woke so of it we I'd be willing to ask him I'm open to it we'll see if he'd be willing to come on and so I really would love to get people from all walks of life we have to have diversity of thought folks and diversity of background as well but diversity of thought we really I know it's gonna step on people's toes once in a while when we have like woke debates but I think it's gonna be it's gonna be fun stepping on their toes so we do appreciate all of your guys's support and human girl says go look James he's on YouTube appreciate that fight the flat Earth versus Nathan Oakley would be an interesting debate I agree that would I don't know let me see that that could work I gotta find out but want to say thank you guys just for hanging out seriously are you guys fk thanks for that note by the way on the Nathan Oakley idea thank you guys for hanging out with us we hope this feels like a community I remember one time this is like a near Christmas a woman shared that her remember she had shared that her father had just passed and I was like oh my gosh like that's heartbreaking I hope you're if you're if you happen to be out there ma'am miss miss is whatever you prefer I hope you're doing okay we all do and so we just yeah I just want to say I hope that you guys feel like this is a community I know we disagree but I love you guys and there are some of these debates a lot of them I don't even have an opinion I'm just like I haven't really read enough but I do have an opinion on some and I could say even if I don't agree with you on topics the point of tolerance was that you care for or at least are willing to kind of like engage with people who disagree think about how silly it would meet you know if you said oh I I tolerate you I tolerate the fact that you and I agree on everything it's like it doesn't even make any sense the funny thing is tolerance used to be like kind of like trying to trying to be like oh you should agree with everyone just say that everybody's right you can't say that you've got the only correct view regarding socialism or capitalism or whatever else and it's like that doesn't make any sense tolerance necessitates there's disagreement it doesn't make sense to say I tolerate the fact that you and I agree on everything so my point though is this folks we come from many different walks of life we disagree on some things no doubt about it but nonetheless for a community we care about you guys I care about you I love you guys we agree on some things despite our disagreements on some things for example one thing we agree on is fair debates we want this to be a neutral platform where our vision is to host fair debates on a neutral platform so that everybody can have a chance to make their case on a l