Hello, everyone. I am a plug.  We're going to introduce you to something that we work quite a bit. I want to actually acknowledge Mutecchi for all her hard work and the slides that we're going to present. But this is a labor of love that we have, and we're doing this for some reasons you'll see in a moment. This panel is about introducing the MetaMentor program. Let's dive really quick into that, and then we'll explain what we want to do. From there, we'll introduce our panelists, and then we'll have a chat about what the program is. So introducing the MetaMentor program. So what are the MetaMentor program goals? One of the primary goals for us is to bring together mentors and mentees based on shared experiences, interest, and goals. We want to help mentees develop goals to overcome career challenges, maybe identify technical interests, and also help them boost their confidence. We want to broaden mentors' perspectives and mentoring skills, and one of the important things to hear that the mentors are better and held to a high standard. That's a very important thing for us. So another important thing for us when we talk about mentoring is that there's a distinction between mentoring and tutoring. For us, mentoring is focused on the guidance and advice, sharing personal experiences. This mentor program is not intended as a private technical tutoring, although it is possible that in some circumstances it might feel like it. A good example will be I want to sharpen my skills on Python, and you might want to share a piece of the code, which we'll then give you advice on. Maybe over the relationship of a mentor and mentee, it leads into a bit of that technical tutoring, but primary our goal is to concentrate on the guidance and advice. A good example for this will be how to learn about networking instead of explaining TCP versus UDP. So just keep that in mind. It's going to be a very important for us that you keep this distinction between mentoring and tutoring. Now the Meta Mentor program has a series of activities that we're going to introduce to you. One of the primary keys on us is we want to be transparent with everyone. We're going to be using Discord. We're going to have one-on-one mentoring. So we're doing our best to try to find matches based on career and technical interests. We'll speak to you how does that work. We're going to have basically sessions, which are 30-minute virtual sessions, which when you're matched to a mentor, you can conduct. These sessions will be on Discord, on the Blue Team Village channel, so you'll find a place where you can go and meet and then just have your session with your mentor. In addition, the mentor program is going to have monthly meetings. So these monthly meetings will be about an hour to two hours where we're going to be able to talk about how the program is going. We're going to introduce new mentors to mentees and vice versa. We're going to try to gather feedback from you. What's working? What's not necessarily working? And then one of the other things that we want to do is there is a need for sharing important information. A lot of individuals and folks are looking for advice on different things. And one way in which we can provide that to many of you is to have regular panel discussions on different topics of interest. If you are an individual that want to be a mentor or you don't have the time, but you have a particular topic which you would like to share and just share an hour of your time to do a panel, we would like to hear from you. We're going to have different topics. This is not Blue Centric. If you do a routine in Bug Bounty, we want to hear from you. All the topics that we're going to try to use to understand what are the needs of our mentees will be funneled from the information we collect from the Mentor Program through our interest form. Now, with that said, it is time for us to dive into the panel. I will want to, this will be our official first meeting. We want to get to you to know all of the core mentors and I think this will be a good opportunity to speak about what the core mentor is. We're aiming to be diverse as diverse as possible. We will want to include a few more mentors if your background is of your Asian, if you're black, if you are transgender or gay or lesbian and you want to be in here, we want to get you, we want to get more perspectives and different mentors from different backgrounds. So if you're interested in seeing currently on the core mentors, your representation, we encourage you to be part of that. The core mentors role is to basically set to the high standard what the program will be. And we're dedicating a set of time extra to provide this service to all of you. Beyond that, there will be mentors and there will be a path to become a core mentor as we evolve in the program. If you want to contribute or if you have more questions, hopefully through this panel, we'll address them. And with that further ado, I'm going to stop presenting my screen now and why don't we just dive into getting to know everyone in the panel. So we're going to do these in the order that I kind of see the screen in here. So let's begin with Muteke, wanting to do this yourself. Yes, my name is Muteke, aka Cassandra or whichever one you want to use. So I'm actually an infosec adjacent person who has been attending DEF CON for a couple of years. I got into volunteering at Blue Team Village. And I have a kind of interesting path that I've taken towards being infosec adjacent in that five years ago, I was a part-time help desk and AV support person. I personally don't recommend AV, run screaming if you ever have to do AV. But I'm particularly interested in, so I do, right now I'm a sysadmin and I do a lot of incident response for Azure and O365 logging authentication. I'm also a part-time grad student because I'm a complete masochist apparently. And my areas of interest in that aspect are a lot of programming, cloud security and architecture, and microservices and serverless platforms. Awesome, thank you. Thank you for being here with us. Rando. To find the mute, I've been using Discord for like months now, like where's the mute button? Hi, my name is Rando, also known as Danny Akatski. I am a career blue teamer, threat hunter, been in security for about 10 years now. And I've worked at companies like Mandiant and GE Capital, now I'm a Senior Technical Account Manager which sounds fancier than it really is with Gigamon. And yeah, I've been going, I mean, been in with DEF CON for about five years now. I'm a DEF CON sock goon represent and I run a contest and yeah, I'm super active in the community. That's why I really love this stuff. So, hi. Awesome, thank you. All right, so who's coming next? Rubix. Hi everyone, Rubix, woman 38 here. My name is Xavier Ash. Been around for a while, got about 28 years of experience, done a little bit of everything, worked for consulting shops, worked for large companies, small companies, done time in government and did some startups. Currently in, decided to kind of retire from all the consulting and go back into just doing security some at the financial services firm right now. And so yeah, a lot of experience with the blue team side, and architecture and building out programs, done, managed a couple of instant response teams over the years. And so yeah, I'm looking forward to the program. Thanks a lot. Sim, G. Sure. So I started out life as a systems administrator about 10 years ago. I got into red teaming in big four consulting about six, seven years ago. I actually switched to batik, security consulting on the still on the red side, doing more management stuff now, but occasionally I'm allowed to hack stuff and that's about the only happiness I get these days. So awesome. Ali. Hi everyone, my name is Ali Hansen. I actually stumbled across security a few years ago and kind of immediately fell in love with it and really became smitten with not only security but the people. And I dabbled in security sort of certifications, also jumped into the world of social engineering. And I really have a very broad interest base across the sort of disciplines and areas, insecurity, red, blue, purple, CTI, aerospace, biohacking. I do a lot of volunteering within all of these different efforts kind of across the board including policy as well. And recently I actually started my own company. So I'm really hoping to help you all out if you're interested in learning what it takes to start your own small business, LLC. And that's about it. Thanks guys. Awesome. All right. So we get into no hack me. Mute buttons are hard. Hey, what's up? I'm Mick aka no hack me. Fed for a super long time. You name an agency. I probably worked there, built out some incident response teams, built out some threat intelligence programs. Most recently I worked at the White House we're in a threat intelligence team over the 2016 election. CISO for Pete Buttigieg. And now I am currently a security advisor at Splunk kind of taking all the experience that I have and help folks make the trains go. Super jazzed to be here. I think the experience I have is especially on a Fed side. If you like public sector for some odd reason, I'm your dude. Like your favorite feds, favorite ex-fed. That's a great way to put it. So thank you for being here. All right. So we're gonna go with Moose. Hi everyone. I'm Moose. I also go by Heather. I'll talk to myself and say I'm one of the senior incident responders at CrowdStrike. I'd have one a bunch of things. I also volunteer as a red teamer for CCBC. My IT career began in a very strange way. I was a QA tester for the first droid phone, the first smart phone. And it was really enough of a hook to where I got to break that multiple times. And the rest is kind of history. I've done help desk, desktop support, CIS admin, network admin. Right before I was core security, I was a lead data analyst. And the whole thing kind of just ties together in wanting to look at all the things and not wanting to be put in a box. So if you have multifaceted experience or want multifaceted experience and look at the big picture, I might be your person, but I eat, sleep and breathe. Incident response right now. So I had to ask what day it was today. But that's me in a nutshell. And I'd rather refer to myself as a DFIR comes through by most days than anything else. That's awesome. By the way, I was early on on the incident response panel. So thank you for being here again as well. All right, so we're gonna introduce also a person that likes to remain kind of hidden on the background. It's a person that I respect quite a bit. His name is Clay. Hey, thank you, Plug. Yep, Clay, been in the field in general for about 20-something years. Done a lot of programming and system administration work. The past eight years or so, I've been able to focus on security. And that's been a fantastic ride. I've become more active in the community over the past four or five years or so. I'm one of the organizers of Blue Team Village. And I love googly eyes. Awesome. You also have another organization. You wanna do a little... Sure, yeah. Help organize WAPR Summit as well. And that's more of a, it's still security related, but we kind of focus more on hardware, hardware hacking. And that takes place right outside the Philly area. Awesome, thank you. Thank you for that. All right, and our last core mentor here with us is Scooby. Hey, hi everybody. Scooby, I've been in Infosec for almost 20 years now. Worked as a security analyst, then Tretonting team lead, adversary detection team lead. I built some teams. I moved to a financial institution for almost a year. Didn't really cut it out for me being in that type of environment. And now it just changed and I'm a senior manager incident response for a smaller company in Canada. But we have international offices. So it's pretty much all around the world. So yeah, in a nutshell, a lot of Tretonting and blue teaming in general. Love giving talks. I had the pleasure to do so at DerbyCon, Blue Team Village, NorthSec, Gosec and a few B sites as well. Awesome, thank you, thank you. So as hopefully all of you have heard, we have a very diverse set of individuals that are part of the core mentor program. We all have different backgrounds. I want to do this really myself. So I go by plot, I do instant response and I lead Tretonting at some Fortune 20 company. I think if you want to more know about that, I'm in the paranoia team. I'm in the fire team within the paranoia. And I've been volunteering in that comfort quite some time now, different villages and now pretty much living with the Blue Team Village where they have allowed me to grow and kind of put this seat onto this program where we all together are going to bring this to you. So we're going to jump into some questions. And if you're here watching the stream or if you have some questions that you want us to give you maybe some feedback right here live, then feel free to send the questions over. But let's dive really quick into one of the more important questions, right? Cause all of us are here, but what made you want to be a mentor? What makes you in this is directed to not one in particular but we want everyone to know what you decided to be a mentor and what makes you qualified to be one if you want to elaborate on that. So I want to see if someone wants to raise their hand. That's Guvi, I think they have the mic. Well, I decided to be a mentor because some people came to me in real life asking if I would mentor them. I've been trying to be more active in the community as well, volunteering at the Blue Team Village since it's creation three years ago. So when I saw this meet a mentor thing, just said, well, if anyone wants to learn about this, this, this and this, I'll be very happy to spend some time with you. And for me, mentoring is kind of making friends, is sharing experience. And I think that the mentor learns as more as the mentee most of the time. So it's really an exchange and it's not meant to be one direction. Like I'm not feeding anyone things and I'm more expecting exchange and learning as well from those people from their experience. Because I've been doing these specific things maybe longer than them that I have anything that they can bring me as well. Awesome, I saw Nohakimi, you kind of went, oh, well, Rendo, Rendo, you're ready to go. Yeah, I love this. Oh, thank you, sir. I appreciate it, Mr. Paccio. X is a political campaign. I actually, Nohakimi is actually part of this answer for me because he was one of the very first people that I met when I got my first security gig. He was actually my team lead way back when, almost like 10 years ago by this point and kept me in here for better or for worse. I have had a very unconventional road through Infosec. I've been with a lot of companies that have been laying off and things like that. It's been bumpy, but I'm in a really great place now. So I always find, for people that are like drug addicts and things like that, your best help is gonna be your sponsors who are drug addicts themselves, who have been through that. So people that have fell a lot and have experienced that and they know the way back out. So I, at a certain point, all of these weird things that have happened through my career, I didn't want them to be for nothing. And I also have absolutely no shame in talking about fail stories. I don't care. I love them. I love hearing them from other people. So when I run across people that are afraid to fail or don't wanna discuss it or just think that they're never gonna make it, I'm like, I am an object lesson in how complete failures can actually have some success and don't be afraid of it and own it. So the best way to do that for me and to give back is a mentor type program. So that's why I do it. Like why waste all of that facing the mud time on just feeling sorry for myself. I wanna give back to other people about how to get back up from it. Awesome. I guess now hack me so that you wanna do have some interaction. Yeah. So Danny and I go way back, obviously. You know, I started off in the Navy.  I'm a sock goon represent. I work with tool. I've been at this for a super long time. I think that the talks that we heard all day, all day yesterday at Blue Team Village, I'm not any smarter than any person that's talked.  But I've been at this for a while. And one of the things I'm really proud of is I think I've been able to enjoy the experiences along the way. And the important thing is the people that you meet. We all talk about, you know, it's not what you know it's who you know. And I know a lot of people, you name an agency. I probably work there if I don't, I probably know someone who has. And I think that's a large part of why I wanted to be a mentor to make the road easier for the people that are coming next. Like this gray ain't from stress.  So I think if I could do anything to make the next generation of security a little bit better, we're kind of obligated to as security seniors. So when I have the opportunity talking to Clay, like I jumped at it, why wouldn't I want to do this? Like if I have all this information and all this institutional knowledge about the security game and I don't help other people, I'm kind of the problem. Awesome moves. Yeah, kind of along the same lines. So mine's a very personal story. I was working at a global five for a long time. Well, it felt like a long time because when you're doing IR at a global five you feel what years of your life draining away. And I have always struggled with imposter syndrome no matter where I am in my career. I'm not saying I still don't struggle with it because some days I wake up and I just go, oh my God, what was I thinking? But it's a person that helped me during that and I can go ahead and say his name Christopher Witter who had years of experience on me that offered and said, you know, if you just need somebody to think things against I'm willing to set up regular mentor calls with you. And literally I would tell him about my struggles and my thought process. And most of our calls were, you know you're doing everything right and that's what I really needed. And it's so funny that that's sometimes what you need but just having somebody that might be outside of your normal scope of influence like talking to you, for me that was invaluable. And I just feel a little bit, you know because that door was opened for me and a hand came down and pulled me up I should be doing the same thing. And so I really wanna make myself available and keep that door open and that chain going because none of us is an island. Awesome, Ali. Hey, thanks. So I actually have a business background and I've spent years of my life really trying to figure out so much in that realm. And I really think that I'm here is a big believer in sending the ladder back down. So as soon as you figure something out we should be sharing that with each other and helping each other, especially, you know as a woman in this industry, especially as someone who doesn't look like he's sort of stereotypical InfoSec person, I feel very strongly that I wanna help people feel welcome and give them the resources and the knowledge that I have figured out over the years that we all have. And so just big believer in absolutely dovetail on everything that everyone said.  Go for it. You know what Ali said actually it resonated because I'm a woman in an InfoSec adjacent role but I've been in IT for a while now.  So I've had a unique set of experiences and I've also worked really hard on my presentation skills and giving presentations because one thing I realized early on is that I would go to like, you know a small conference or talks at work and there really weren't that many women presenting or openly LGBTQ plus people. And once I started doing that like people came out of the woodworks, I had a lot of people approach me afterwards and just like and like ask me how I got to where I am. And I'm standing there like I'm like early mid-career like what do you mean I'm nowhere yet but wherever you are is further than someone else has gotten so far. So one of the people that I kind of mentor on casually on the side is a non-binary person.  Like I don't know exactly what their experience is like but I know enough of it where we have some common ground and the way that we interact is just more, it's more personal and more comfortable than it would be if we didn't have that common ground. And I think that that common ground is important and also just the visibility is important. So thank you. Actually, I'm gonna make a note in here. We are precisely because of what Muteki said, we were very mindful of trying to find a best match for you. So as you sign up for a mentor M&T, which if you haven't go to the Blutin Village, meet a mentor, you'll find all the information you need. We could collect some extra information if you wanted to, just to help you match precisely with someone, maybe you're gay or lesbian and you identify much more with Muteki and so that's an opportunity for you. We don't need it and it's completely optional if you wanted to and it's precisely because sometimes you feel much more closer with someone that is from, that identifies the same way as you do or maybe at the same background, skin color, whatever it is. So we will have an opportunity to kind of help you with that. With that said, I'm getting some questions from some of the viewers watching the panel. So before I go into those, one of the interesting questions here to ask is, have any of you ever been mentored by anyone? I think Linmus kind of spoke about it. We can kind of continue with that. And then with that question, did that help you in any way? So that is the question. So Moose, you want to kind of continue since you were alluring to that and then we move on to other panelists? Sure, so at the time, and just to say that I've only been mentored by one person and it's exactly true. So I would say that I've had numerous people reach out and say, if you need help on something, please come to me and I've sat down with some great folks who do different things. So like on the red team side, anybody that knows Commander Opsec, phenomenal, all of the Dallas Hackers Association folks, absolutely phenomenal people to sit down with and a lot of us would tag team between each other. It wasn't formal mentorship, but I would still say that learning from another person was very, very valuable, especially earlier on in my infoset career. But Christopher Witter and I actually sat down and we scheduled a plan because otherwise I felt like I was getting too shy and I wouldn't ask questions until I felt like I was drowning and so that was one of the things that really stood out to me as a win factor because every week I would have to think, okay, I have the schedule to call, what are we going to talk about? And actually coming up with the problems and coming up with the different points that I was trying to attack it from taught me more and those mentorship calls because I would research first and I'd almost over-research to compensate. And so it ended up being a really fun conversation and almost work stories at some point. So I don't know that that's going to be the experience for everyone, but I will say that was a very good experience. Awesome, I think I saw someone else in there. It's Kubi, do you have your mic on and off? I didn't answer, okay. Yeah, I think it's on, I think it's on. No real mentor per se or real, very steady opportunity like that, but since my first time at Black Hat and Def Con, I've met many people, lots of people from the blood down, Slack for example, remember at one point I walked out to the Spectre Ups boot and all of a sudden half of my Twitter feed was around me like Sean McAlph, Armjoy talking with Jean-Ti Kiwi. And I was trying to listen to them and I think my nose started bleeding because I didn't understand the single word of what they were talking about. But being with these guys over and over and reading everything they talk about, asking question here and there, I think that I grew more in the last three years than probably the 10 year before that just because of the people that I was talking with and that their generosity in general just to answer all type of question, even if probably the question I did ask, they were asked those question probably a hundred times before but they still took the time to explain things. And for example, as well I mentioned before my first talk I ran into Sean McAlph and I asked him, do you have a few minutes just to review what I'm going to present? And he did take the time to review my stuff and it actually really helped me to refine my deck and make it more, I think more interesting for people. And it was very little things that he told me but I still keep in mind when I do presentation now to make sure that I incorporate what he told me. So those little things that comes from a lot of people just adds up. And I think that having all the mentor here is a good thing as well. So people will be able to talk to a lot of different people even if they have maybe a mentor that are a little bit more assigned. I think that it's, for me, I don't mind answering for other people as well and keeping the dialogue and if I can help, I will help for sure. Awesome, Rubik, so that you wanted to say something. Yeah, I was introduced to mentorship when I got into the startup world. Atlanta's got a pretty interesting history in security, internet security systems, it's produced a whole lot of other folks that have tried to emulate that success. And so once I got up into that startup world, everybody was mentoring somebody, like that was just kind of part of the job description. And I thought that this was great. It would have been so great if I had had this earlier in my career. I had always been the middle of the road security guy, sometimes in management, sometimes not. I was never the super elite hacker, I never had tools in my name, I was never a Twitter superstar, but I do have lots of experience. And so once I started mentoring on the security side, it was really surprising how much of that resonated with people and I was able to help and get back. And so that was my introduction to mentorship was from the startup world. Awesome, thank you for your answers. So I'm gonna add one more question here and then we'll move into some of the questions that we're getting from other people. I think one of the most important questions that we all have dealt somehow at some point in time is how do you combat imposter syndrome in your own life? Rando, I see you can I'm moving towards the mic. Oh, he's, yeah. No, no, no, no, no, no, I'm good, I'm good. I'll get it, I'll get it, I'll get it, I'll get it. Yeah, this is another one of my favorite, favorite questions because I actually just kind of figured this out in the past couple of years or so. And I think I've figured it out around Circle CityCon, I was presenting there. And of course I had always beaten myself up of like, why do I keep getting things and why do people care? I'm like, I'm really nothing, blah, blah, blah.  And I had kind of this moment of clarity that said I am surrounded by all of these people who I look up to, who I still fanboy over. I could be good friends of them for five years and I still fanboy a little bit. And I value their opinion so much and their feedback so much. Who am I to question them if they also value my feedback? Now, this just works for me, right? But I think for me, it is disrespectful and counterproductive if I'm saying I don't believe in them believing in me, if that makes any sense, right? Like, if I value their opinion above other things, am I calling them a liar, am I questioning their opinion and questioning their judgment? So all of a sudden, I'm just like, okay, I'm buying into my, for all intents and purposes, my own hype now because they believe in me so I will out of respect for them. And God that has made such a difference. So every now and again, I feel out of my depth in something but instead of getting down on myself, I'm like, cool, I don't know the thing. I don't know this thing, but please go ahead and teach me and I am that much ready to light somebody else up who doesn't have that same attitude and makes fun of somebody. So I've gained confidence in doing that in lighting somebody up for not doing it and also it makes my life a whole lot easier if I just believe in what everybody else believes about me. So anyway, that's my answer for that. It was like a watershed thing for me. Gee, I saw you that you kind of went off enough on the mic. Yeah, I kind of jumped the gun there, sorry. I think similarly, maybe accepting that I don't know everything, which for me, I'm a very arrogant person that was difficult, soul crushing even, but accepting that I don't know everything and that I want to learn from other people and that they're willing to teach me and that the things that I do know or think that I know, the opinions that I espouse, the things that I'm allegedly an expert on are grounded in experience and research and the things that I need to learn will also be grounded in experience and research or things that somebody else has taught me. That kind of makes me feel good about the things that I know and being okay with not knowing things and learning too. Awesome, Ali, I saw that you wanted to say some comments. Yeah, I just wanted to put out that I think it's important for me to just remember that everyone has a different background. Everyone has had different experiences and those are all equally valid and they're all equally valuable and just trying to remember that, not only for myself, but I encourage other people to remember that as well and to not diminish their life and their compliments, I can't even say, but too much whiskey already, oops. But then also, I think to, I, whenever I'm start feeling just overwhelmed or too anxious about my own imposter syndrome, which I have a ton of because I'm not even a technical person and I'm trying to play in this technical sandbox, I actually try to channel that energy into learning more and asking more questions and I kind of just rechannel that energy and that works for me really well. Awesome, Moose? So I've struggled with imposter syndrome throughout multiple careers, multiple years and while I don't think it really goes away, really self-reflective take away I have was, it's not always been this good for me. I'm in a place now to where I struggle with it less and I have to get credit where credit is due. I have a very supportive team. I have very, very supportive leadership and it has made all the difference in the world and recognizing that your environment impacts you, I think is super important because when I was struggling at it, struggling with it at the peak of imposter syndrome, don't think I was bad. Looking back at it, I go, I really did know what I was doing, but I wasn't doing it with confidence because I wasn't around the right people and I've got to say that that for me was one of the biggest takeaways because it's not like I've necessarily changed very much as a person, but my environment has changed drastically and I think that if you can't find the people to support you in that knowledge where you are at work, so if you're a team of one or two and you don't really have the people around you that understand what you're doing and can't support you in that way, having a community that does it really helps as well, which is just another reason that I was so happy when Pug said, hey, we're doing this mentorship program thing with Blue Team Village, I was like, yes, absolutely, we'll help out, this is amazing. Oh, awesome, thank you. I'll add a little bit of personal note in here as one of the mentors that you will have the option to talk to. My first Deccan was many, many years ago, I was only three hours in there. There is a panel that I partake on Deccan and this is when I want to acknowledge one of the key individuals, he's a voice actor, Mike Pertuzzi. He runs some stuff in Deccan and he met me and we talked and he actually helped me to kind of embrace the, be part of Deccan and get yourself out to volunteer. You'll do something that will get you out of that shell and without having to kind of get him to chat with me, I don't think I will be honest here, but in that regard, for the imposter syndrome, I started going to the 2600 in LA meetings where there is a lot of very cool hackers and I always felt like, what could I bring to the table? And yet, for many years to Deccan, the two people that really brought always a lot of value to me is Matrix and Vidiot, their goons and some of you might know them and they were very, not necessarily mentors, but they allow me to see that a lot of my adventure, at least in Deccan was up to me and that I needed to, I didn't have an accent and I needed to stop worrying about things and just let be. So sometimes, like someone mentioned earlier, we just need a little word of encouragement that will allow us to see things in a slightly different way. And in my case, by getting those words, I realized that that helped me break out of that imposter syndrome, which we'll get it, but hopefully through us, you'll get to hear sometimes those words of empowerment and hopefully the same way that some of us has influenced in our lives, we can do that to you in your life and empower you to grow. And with that said, let's kind of go into an interesting question we received from the viewers and it says, as a mentor, what will you define as success in this role for you? How can I, as a mentee, get you invested and show accountability? I think that was an excellent question. Who said me? Rebex? Yeah, I think that one way that we can measure success and from our side is, very early on, we'll establish what is it that you want to get out of this and so that way it's not a guesswork on understanding, did what we, all the time that we spent together was it effective or not? Like, let's put it on the table. What do you want to get out of this? And that way we can track that and make sure that as we're moving along, we check in, are we doing anything to help you along? Are you realizing, you have new avenues that you didn't know that you had before? Are you seeing new opportunities? Like, you know, I think it's up to us to continually check in with our mentees to understand and make sure that we're being effective, not just in the end, but throughout the entire relationship. Awesome, anyone else?  Oh, yeah, go for it. No, no, that's a much better idea. Clay, go right ahead. He's so quiet. He's been quiet. I need to give him one, right? I mean, he needs to speak a little bit. Put him on the spot. Come on, handsome. Xavier, I couldn't say it any better. Oh, you pop out.  Please, Clay, you can try, though. Well, I'm you just to heckle you. Oh, my God. All right, well, well, Clay, I will give you my answer and then you can ask Clay again. He'll be like, yeah, Randall got it. Mine is, yeah, to echo what what what he has said is it's important for for the mentors to check in with the mentee. Now, just as a caveat, like just because you're matched with one of us, it's not always a match. Like it's it's being self-aware enough to be like, listen, there's just no vibe here and I've had it happen. Like I think of myself as like very personable and I really want to help but sometimes the vibe just isn't there and that is completely fine. I need honesty from them and I also I also want to see that they are applying their own critical thinking skills to what I'm telling them. I don't want somebody just to parrot what I've told them. I don't want them to copy what I've told them because everybody's experience is different. Like if I get, I am sure. What you're telling us, got it?  I saw what you did there. You know, and also be honest with me, right? My life outlook is as a straight white male growing up in suburbia and living in a metro urban. I would love to mentor people from all different kinds of backgrounds but reminds me, check in with me of like, hey, my experience is different. Can you translate this for me? That's how I know that you're thinking critically about it and applying. It's kind of the same as when you have a, you know, if you've been in a sock for a while and you have a new analyst, and it's clear that even when I tell you something you haven't actually done the legwork to figure this out. Like, oh, it didn't work. I gave up. Tell me what to do next. It's not linear, right? So I just want to know that what I'm telling you is getting through and that I am understanding you. So that communication, as long as we can build that I know this is going to be a very fruitful experience. And I think Clay should follow up with that. Yeah, Clay? Sure, sure, I will. I think just taking the first step and to becoming involved, to be a mentee, to open yourself up to the experience is already a success. It's about the journey as well, right? It's not about the destination. So if you're learning and you're growing that's what it's all about. And half of that is really up to you. And if I can guide and support you in any way, shape, or form like that's what it's all about for me. Awesome, and in this case, you know, this is why this is a good time to actually do a call for mentors. If you're a mentor, right? And you feel like you have something that you can bring to the table. Remember, this is not about, you know if you're very good at something, you know, that's great. But if you have some experience, right?  Then we want you to be here. We want you to be part of that so you can help someone like you. So go ahead, hit the Blooting Village site, look at Meet the Mentor program, you know, go to the farm and, you know, we wanna talk to you. We really wanna talk to you. Another great question that we've received is what makes a good mentor and how can mentors improve their mentor game? Nohakimi? What makes a good mentor? I'll be honest, like it's gonna vary from individual to individual. What works for Clay doesn't work for Randall, doesn't work for Muteke, doesn't work for Moose. Like it's gonna be individual. And to Danny's point, if you and I hang out and it's not a match, cool. Like I'm not mad about it. I'm still gonna help you as much as I can, but if there's a better one, one. So I think that what makes a good mentor is what you wanna get out of it.  I actually wanna jump in on that real quick. Yeah, good, go. It seems like the previous question and answer, it feels kind of related. So what, like what Randall was saying about like, kind of this, it reminded me of the whole idea of like mentoring versus tutoring. I don't wanna just be there to answer some technical question because it's like when you interview someone, you're not really looking for someone that maybe like compare it back information to you. You want someone that is gonna show you how they think. And I think that that's important for a mentor-mentee relationship. I, as a mentor, am more interested in helping someone find the answer themselves and not just giving them that answer. So that's a very important part of that relationship. And whatever I can do to be transparent about that and to share my experiences and not what I learned, but how I learned it and connect on a personal level where that's something that can be communicated well. I think that's an incredibly important part of being a mentor. Excellent. Moose, do you wanna follow up on that? I think you're, I don't know if you're muted or muted, don't see it. I'm muted. Yeah, I'd love to. So I currently mentor inside of work. We have an internship program. So I've constantly been evaluating myself and seeing how I do. And I'm always overly critical on myself. But I think that what makes a good mentor slash mentee bond is the ability to actively listen, but then also off of that listening, really ask those guiding questions on where you wanna go and get to the meat and potatoes of goals for somebody that you're trying to help or for somebody who's seeking help. And sometimes it's just asking something in a certain way that's gonna clarify that goal. And just know that when you do that, that's not hard and fast. So a good mentor is also going to keep it fluid for you. And if you accomplish something, it's still an accomplishment, even if it's not in your goal set and your goals can change. Awesome. Thank you, Ali. Yeah, I just wanted to also say, in my personal life and just in how I try to navigate this world, I really focus on empathy and I really focus on not judging. So trying to be non-judgmental with everything. And so I think just that sort of conscious practice in my regular life will also help me become a better mentor for other people as well as honestly, I'm still being mentored by so many people. So I think that's really important that your mentor is never done being a mentee, so. Very well said. Rubix, I thought you'd raise your hand because you wanted to say something or that was just waving to the camera. I literally have a bug flying right in front of my face and I'm just like, I can't, okay, I'm sorry. So I'll just ignore me. And just one thing to follow up on that. That was, she made an excellent, excellent point is that remember as a mentee, like cut your mentor, like just remember that like we don't know everything. We are still being mentored. I will sit and listen to like Moobix school me for hours and hours because like that dude is like always gonna know more than I do about a lot of things. It's just like how anybody who goes and has a therapist. Therapists have therapists. Like remember that there is that ladder and that's, I had tried a mentor program a while ago by my dear friend, he's Jimmy Vo on Twitter. He had spun up something like this and I volunteered for it, I was not ready. I let a couple people down and I just wasn't, I thought I was and I wasn't and I still feel bad about it. So, yeah, we are still being mentored ourselves and you'll see us at a con be hanging with us and our draws are gonna drop it like a certain person that walks by going, hold on, I want their autograph. We still do that. Like every time Clay walks by. I haven't, I'm always, yeah, nevermind, sorry. No, no, now you have to answer it. Go, what are you gonna say? I was gonna say I'm always asking for Rando's autograph. He still hasn't given it to me yet. Yeah, that's because every piece of paper has like a signature line signing over my house to you. I know what you're doing. Clay's quiet, definitely. I got another interesting question in here and it says in here, this is actually a pretty good question. It says, any suggestions for someone with a strong technical education that will be re-entering the workforce after over a decade of changing diapers? Ubi, you're not in, do you wanna take this one? I see both. I just think it's an excellent question. And well, it was not a decade, but I took two times a year off to go travel in various part of the world.  I think, even like people say that Infosec is moving extremely fast and that everything changes all the time, but in fact, it's always also the same thing. It's very different, but the foundation is still the same. So yes, the new act or the new vulnerability is something new, but the basic there, it's injection, it's a remote code execution, it's whatever, there's not a lot of new technique or the new things that are groundbreaking. There's new vulnerability, there's new things. So if you have a very good background, I think you'll pick it up very quickly. Again, I don't think there's a lot of magic here. You'll need to read, you'll need to go to some conference, just keep reading, keep talking with new people or other people, and then you'll catch up whatever you missed. And I think that if your foundation is strong, it's gonna be, it's gonna work for you. Rubik's, I see you without the mic. Oh, sorry, random Rubik's. No, no, he was first. So yeah, I've actually hired a couple of people in this situation, and I find that technical skills are easy. The life skills that you learn, whether it's raising children or helping out with your elderly parents. I mean, there's a lot of reasons why people take Leisure of Absence. And that is valuable experience. So don't throw it out with the bathwater, bring it because we need that. We need the stuff that you learned as part of that life. Us stuck behind a computer, we get stuck in a box and we need fresh perspectives or ways of looking at things, compassion, empathy, technical skills is something you'll learn. So let's jump in and let's get it done. And say that if you're dealing with, oh, sorry. No, no, go, go, go, go, go, go. No, I'm just gonna interject. If you've been dealing with small children for a decade, you are very well prepared to deal with consulting. Just gonna throw that out there. Clients and small children, very similar. Yeah, and my thing real quick, because I'm talking a lot, but just the way that the question was phrased almost makes me think they're worried about it or they think that it's a detriment. Here's something that's really gonna help you, especially when you come back in, you're eventually gonna get to an interview where the interviewers are gonna be bad interviewers and they're gonna keep trying to steer that conversation to stuff that maybe you don't know about and always try to steer it back, use whatever skills that you have to steer the conversation back to make those strengths. You didn't take time off. You ran a small enterprise of people who can't help themselves. And that's all InfoSec is. We're helping people who can't help themselves. So that's what you did. That is a core skill. And I haven't changed a diaper for at least a couple of years now, but yeah, don't approach that as a negative. And my only follow-up to that is if you are naturally inclined to go out to conferences and talk to people, work on your networking. If you are not, not all of us are, figure out a way, translate that thing that you're not comfortable doing into something that you are comfortable doing, which is cultivating a good Twitter feed, cultivating good sources of intel for yourself to learn things.  Recognize the patterns. You're not that far off. Like I guarantee you, you're not as far away as you think. Oh, hi to me. Yeah, so I'll be honest. Like 10 years off, it depends what kind of 10 years off we're talking. 10 years, like I kept up with tech or 10 years I did.   And that's what it comes down to is getting past that HR screen. And I think that's what a lot of us mentors kind of bring the table is.  And I think that's what a large part of being a mentor is, is don't get discouraged.   But to Danny's point, to everybody else's point, like we all know mothers. Holy shit, is that backbreaking work that it doesn't translate to a resume, but to anyone that has a child, Jesus, you would put in the hours. So I think the HR screen is gonna be your problem, not the technical interview. Keep your chops up and you're good. And all of us will help you as best we can get past that HR hurdle we all face. I love HR though. I leave for you. Moose, you wanna say something? I do. Three things that I'm gonna keep it very short because I know I've talked a lot, but one, thank you for asking this question. I think it's really important and how a lot of people are brave enough to ask it. And thank you for having the strength to put your family first because that is something that not a lot, there are a lot of people in this industry who struggle with that. And that's super admirable to at least me. So I wanna put that out there. The second thing is to kind of bounce off of no happening and say, not only is what you said true, but there's also the added layer that of you're asking questions here, you're probably signing up for this program. You're opening a huge shoulder because sometimes it's about who you know and I think that being more involved in the community is really gonna be a boom to you. But there are a lot of volunteer positions that you can volunteer for at info.set.cons, especially right now that we're all remote. So reach out to the different cons that are coming up, volunteer, put that on your resume, like put your home lab on your resume, put stuff like that on your resume because it doesn't need to be, I am at this formal company right now, you can put additional stuff that you've done, research you've done, education you've kept up with on your resume, write a blog, showcase the fact that you can write really well on the blue side, if you can write a report, you're cold then. And then the last thing I'll say is 10 years of changing diapers. I have blocked into clients that look like a diaper barge after a threat actors hit them. So that's valid experience. And just know that you've been looking at the things that we look at every day, no matter what. Awesome. I want to note on this, oh, well actually before I go, Allie, wanna go for it? Yeah, thanks. I totally agree with everything everyone said. I also think from sort of a tactical perspective, you obviously are gonna have a lot on your plate, both with career and life. And I think it's probably just really important for you to do it yourself or get support to do this, but to really prioritize what is your sort of attack plan? Where are you gonna be focusing your time, resources and energy and trying to figure out like maybe kind of doing your own gap analysis or kind of your own SWAT analysis, your strengths, weaknesses, opportunities and threats. And just kind of figuring out like what needs to be stronger, what can you work on and really kind of strategically thinking about your priorities because you obviously are gonna have a lot of restrictions on your time and your resources. And then I think also, and this is something that hopefully your potential mentor and network and friends can help you with, but I think too, giving your circumstances, you are gonna want to maybe proactively seek an organization who embraces you, who embraces your background. And I think that's something that could be really crucial to your success. So I'll just leave it with that. Yeah, no, I think these are very good points. I'll actually, I was gonna kind of note on that. If you're dealing with that, I think one of the important things, like it was said by Nohagmi, HR is gonna be one of the main problems you're gonna really face, right? But even then, learn social engineering. There's always one way that you can speak to someone, especially they relate. And if you find that way that can relate to someone, especially for many of us, having kids is so relatable, right? You can play that as an extent during that HR stuff. Obviously they're gonna look at things like, have you, when you stop working or not, but then you can change that conversation. And also it was said before, taking care of someone, even if it's changing diapers, you learn a lot of things, risk management, crisis management, how to respond to incidents, right? So there's a lot of things that are analogies to security anyways, because they happen in real life. You can flip all of that in a way that, say, hey, I might not have in real life, on that technical subject, but I know what it's like when I have to deal with this. And there are many things in life that align a lot with what we do anyways. So find a way to kind of make those into stories that you can bring and say, hey, I know this, and that life experience sometimes is much more valuable than the technical experience you can bring. Anyone else wanna add something to this? Otherwise, Ajee, do you wanna say something? Yeah, go for it. On the topic of conferences, if you have a local B-Sides chapter, it's a great place to get started. They tend to be very approachable and most of them are always looking for help. I know that we are, I hope, on B-Sides fairly. If you're in the area, hit me up, we'll get you involved. In that note, we have a few, almost, oh, go ahead, no hug me.  Yeah, so as far as, go for it, go for it, Moose. Shellcon, that's all I wanted to say, Shellcon. I'm representing. Yeah, so I think as far as conference goes, we covered quite a bit of ground in there. I chanced to the Shellcon crew as well. A few of the B-Sides, we got CircleCityCon, right? Yeah, there you go, see? You gotta show this. So there's plenty of conferences, some even that I really haven't gone. Hotchcon is another fun conference. So, yeah, get involved on those, but there's another question that came up as well from the audience. And someone is asking, do any of your mentors help or partake or mentor in the local high school in any way? Ali? Sorry, a little burn there. Yeah, so I'm actually so excited. It's a relatively new effort, but I, bad opsec, but I'm in the DC area and I just made a new friend over Twitter and he has actually has already started an effort to provide free IT and also security training, basically a program to the Black youth in DC who are notoriously historically underserved and underprivileged. And I'm really honored that he's considering to bring me on to help. So I'll have more on that actually soon, but that will be actually primarily for the high school age for the kids in DC. Awesome, Brando? Yeah, first of all, plug for a very good friend of mine. He is on Twitter at SimpleSkink, S-K-I-N-K. He gave a talk at Circle a couple of years ago and this guy has done a ton, a ton of work reaching out to his local school community, I think in like the Louisville area. So first point of order is to go follow him, pick his brain, his DMs are open, and he actually had did a really good talk. So go and search for SimpleSkink and talk at Circle City. I think it was like 2017 or 2018. Anyway, on from that, I recently, not high school kids, but I recently gave a talk to four different classes of middle schoolers. And that was a complete eye-opener about how they give and receive information. And by the way, if you use Facebook, they will make fun of you. So I got in by accident, because I have, this is gonna sound super pretentious, but the dude who cuts my grass is also a high school teacher and teaches PE in middle school. And I was like, well, I should be cutting your grass, first of all, second of all, he got me in there. If somebody is thinking about being a mentor and trying to get into schools, or if you are in high school and have never gotten a good speaker, it is incredibly, incredibly hard. I have found to get into schools, it is hard to get them to return phone calls because I actually don't know why. But yeah, so if you're thinking about mentoring, go follow SimpleSkink, he has fought all of these fights for you already. And if you wanna do it, it is super rewarding. Just know that there's, like we talked before, about ways to give and receive information, even among adults, it's hard. So be prepared to really have to translate. And I wanna do more of it because that is a skill talking to high schoolers that I have yet to master or that I ever will, because they all stay the same age and I keep getting older. I don't know if that... Yeah, I like to that. I don't know if that was an answer to anything. No, I think that's good. Personally, I do volunteer from time to time my time. And this is actually one of the things that I found. I go to, maybe not sometimes, I've only been to high school twice, but I've gone to elementary or junior schools. And one of the coolest things that I like to do is take some of the badges to those schools and use it sometimes as gadgets and props to talk about hackers and so forth. Cause they have a good way to kinda get everyone engaged, even if especially in high school, the times that I use them. But yeah, there's some challenges with that. The place I work, there is a bit of a program where if you are from Latin heritage and you speak Spanish, like in my case, we volunteer to go to a university or some other place and kinda do be on a panel or do a talk or presentation. So yeah, it's just slightly different to be mentoring someone at that level. And it also comes with a few constraints. So where you do it, how you do it, you always have to be mindful on both of the sides, especially at that age level and the role of a mentor, right? So whenever I engage in that, I try to make sure that it is never one-on-one personally, it's more like a setting where it's pretty public and it's in a group setting, just because it's the easiest way to answer many questions and also because I'm not qualified to kinda have that setting with someone, I'm not tutoring. And I think that's very important to kinda touch on this, right? There's a distinction between tutoring and mentoring and that will not be the demographic that I personally feel confident to provide some sort of mentoring. I was a teenager once and I followed many things during that age. So I think that's an important thing to kinda note. And with that said, we do have another question that came in as well. And it says, may the panel speak on goal setting over the ambitious goals? So if you set an overambition goal, how to manage your workload and burnout? Put impression on yourself to succeed at all costs. Basically, we're talking about burnout. Muteke? Yeah, I can actually, I think I can start to speak on that. So I have constantly struggled with doing, trying to do too much and burning out or getting really close to burning out. So one example is actually at the start of this pandemic. So my work started going remote in mid-March and around the same time, just right as we went remote, I actually got COVID and I wound up being sick for about two, two and a half months. If you ever heard of like a COVID long hauler that was me, it's horrible. Do not recommend zero of 10, like do not recommend. But of course what wound up happening was I had an amazing supportive boss who pretty much let me kind of just, I went to take it like a week or two off maximum and then I started trying to work and I felt like, I felt a lot of guilt about like trying to work when I was still really sick and I felt like I didn't perform enough. So I wound up just taking on an insane amount of work when I started to feel better. And in the last like two or three weeks, I basically had like three major projects all like crescendo at the same time. And I hit a point where like I woke up in the morning and I just dreaded the day. And I realized that like, I kind of did that to myself and I have to be realistic about what I'm capable of doing and what I'm not capable of doing. And I've always been this way, like I pushed so hard and I just keep going. And like I said, I'm also a part-time grad student. And if anyone has ever been to grad school, like it's kind of an insane rush and it's full of a lot of overachievers. And you have a kind of constant imposter syndrome where you think that everyone is way smarter than you and they can do the project in one hour when it takes you like 12 or 24, whatever it is. So, I've had to like be careful with myself and let myself just fail a little bit and set smaller goals and like actually delegate where it's possible to delegate. Like these projects, I could have trained someone else to do this part or that part or reassign something.  And that's kind of like, I still look paying for that a little bit and it's a constant struggle. Anyone else, Moose, I see you. So that question hits home because I am known for my burnout. I almost struggle saying no to things when they come in and I am a hyper technical person. So like I want to know the inside detail on how everything works and it's a problem. I'm also a professional, it's also a problem. And I have to go ahead and give a shout out to them. My intern right now that I have that I'm mentoring wrote a blog post this past week. And part of this blog post was the best advice I've gotten recently was take a break.  So okay, you just have to do it in parts. And I think having overly ambitious goals is great. I've had them. I was working beyond full time doing SOC IR, completing my master's degree in DFIR at the same time and volunteering for another organization. And I didn't sleep much and that wasn't exactly healthy. So as a mentor, I'm never gonna say what you should or shouldn't do, but I might ask a lot of questions and share my life experience and say, hey, these are the kinds of things that have helped me. Did you remember to eat today? How much have you slept this week? Some things like that that you know, my boss said to me recently, I'm taking one day of Tuesday off by the way because I haven't slept much recently but they say to me on a frequent basis we'll always have IRs, but we only have one pattern. And I think that's a really good way to look at it for you. Have those overly ambitious goals shoot for the moon, but there's only one you. So keep yourself alive while you're doing it. Awesome. Rubik? Yeah, I wanted to call out something. Give some words to what people would feel in different situations because there's stress and then there's burnout and really there's a difference and you can have a stressful work career and be happy and productive. And stress doesn't necessarily have to be bad. Burnout is when that stress is doing different things to you. So, you know, go Google that stress versus burnout and you can kind of see the differences there and help measure yourself. Am I just in a stressful situation or am I approaching burnout? And because the ways that you respond to that is a little bit different. So I wanted to throw that out there, give those skills to anybody that's listening is to recognize that and be able to respond accordingly. Awesome. I'll end through this part of that. So we go into the final notes with a personal note that it's like a worker reminder. If he's watching or he will ever watch that has told me many times, you said yes, right?  And it is definitely a thing that some of us learn to deal and learn to, so learn to say no and it's okay to say no. There will be more time to try new things and experience things, but it's completely fine. And the sooner you learn to do that, you will be able to succeed even more because you're able to funnel all of the time that you have into that one primary task. And instead of, you know, try to find more hours of the day that you don't have to do all the other things that you're racing your head for. So if you wanna learn it from me, then learn to say no. So hi to my coworker. All right, so we're at the end of the panel and this is the time for us to basically end. And I wanna give everyone an opportunity. You got about a quick minute to just go through, you know, last comments regarding the program maybe you want some simple advice to end. It's totally up to you. So, you know, do you want me to do it the same way that we did it before from the top and the bottom or is that fine? You're taking, all right, take it away. I just wanna say it's been absolutely awesome to work on this and we've gotten an amazing surge of interest. And I'm super excited to delve into like how this is gonna work. So it's probably, we're not gonna wind up with any assignments at least for probably a week or so. If you know people that are interested in mentoring, please send them over, boutiquevillage.com, meet inventory with dashes. And I just wanna say that, you know, we're really, we wanna be cognizant about how people have different experiences and we didn't really have time to address a lot of the questions that kind of came up.  And one of the things that came up was different experiences. So my experience as a woman who is also gay in the workforce means that I'm kind of an honorary man. And that means that my experience of things as like a super assertive, like very outspoken steamer all over human being is not gonna be the same as a more feminine woman's would be. And all experiences are valid and I think all of us that want to be a mentor are trying our hardest to recognize that those differences exist. And some of the most important things that we can do is to just believe people, to believe women, believe black people, believe people of color and to really like to take that into consideration. So I hope that we're able to achieve that for all the people that apply to be mentees. Awesome. Yeah, good point. Actually, just a quick thing. We collected some, I think we so far got a few mentees submissions, do you know what count are we? Let me check you. We're almost at 200. And the huge surge mostly mentees. So we are actively looking for more mentors and you people are really interested in technical skill acquisition, developing confidence interpersonal skills and imposter syndrome is definitely high in that list. And also like things like interviews and things like that. And you people love DFIR too. Like everyone wants to do DFIR, it's great. Awesome, thank you. All right, so as you heard, we're looking for mentors and if you're in mentee, we have a line to go through. So don't matter, just come in and sign up. Rando.  Second of all, it's just a word about projection, right? Right now, everybody who is either thinking about being a mentee or has already applied, like don't project yourself out for failure and don't project yourself out for like conquering the world, that's a good thing to have. But take this seriously, right? If you get into this groove with us and all of a sudden you start projecting about how it's not gonna do you any good or I'm not a fit for this or whatever, always keep in mind to not project. You cannot tell the future.  Spoiler alert, you're gonna do both multiple times. So just take this seriously in the moment.   Some Rubik's, you hear me? Rubik's Rubik's, I think he's muted. Now, we'll skip him. Pulling a clay. Let's ask him. Yeah, I don't think he can hear me. We'll skip him for now as he is connected. So, all right, he's coming back, let's see. Maybe Audi is back on. All right, awesome. It's a safe road. Did my technology fail right at the right moment? Okay. Yeah, your turn. All right, it's my turn. So yeah, I'm really looking forward to this. Always enjoy hearing what people are doing but they're facing the variety of things.  I've had a little short stints of absolutely no technology jobs in between my 28-year career where I've been like, I'm gonna be a bartender or I'm going to help rebuild houses or refills. I mean, it's crazy. You'll get there, you're gonna be at points in your life. We're just gonna want you something else. And to make it full 30, almost 30 years that I have, you've gotta take some breaks and whatnot. So even if you are not ultimately successful and have this ramp of exactly you met your goals, that doesn't mean you failed completely and you can't have success. So we'll work together, we'll find some ways but understand that we'll all have some bumps and bruises along the way and I look forward to it. Awesome, thank you for that, G. Yeah, I'd say that success in the program for both parties relies on keeping each other accountable and kind of holding each other accountable and being an active participant in your role in that. Otherwise, it becomes lopsided and it ends up not working for one of the other party. But I'm super excited to get this kicked off. It's something that I didn't necessarily have coming up in the industry when I was starting out and I wish I'd have had it. So it's gonna be good, I hope. Awesome, Ali. I was gonna say that I'm so thankful for being invited to this special group of amazing people and I can't wait to help as many folks as we can and like I said earlier, just sending the ladder back down so I can't wait. Perfect, thank you. No hack me? Hey, to kind of touch on the earlier point like stress versus burnout, to throw it back to a sports ball reference, are you injured or are you hurt? And I think a lot of our careers like they say, pick something you love to do so you fail to set boundaries and you eventually burn out and learn to hate it. Don't do that. I think my career has kind of pivoted to things where I have been in incredibly stressful situations and have kind of walked that line on burning out. The mentor program, I'm super excited to be a part of it. You're gonna get out of it what you put into it and that's gonna be anything you do in the security industry. Like caveats, I don't know if we're supposed to sell ourselves now. You'll have access to my entire network. I've done a lot of things. I've walked, anyone who knows me, I've walked a really weird path in life and in a career. The only rules I think are the same rules for all of us. Like don't make us regret it.  And eventually one day someone is gonna ask you to do the same thing for them and do it. That's what we're trying to do.  We're trying to build something that will be. And I think this mentor program is a fantastic start. So please take advantage of it. And that gets by me on the internet. So I'll be around. Awesome, well said. Also, thank you. Moose. So I think a lot of good things have already been said but for me, one of the things that I would wanna leave this off with is my insane speed doesn't need to be your insane speed. My path is not necessarily your path. What we're here to do as mentors is be there to lean on, be there to bounce ideas off of and help you find your perfect path because there's no right or wrong path in the process. And just as a personal aside, I can be an overwhelming person because I'll say, oh yeah, I'm doing shellcon things right now. And then I'm going with my other half to do besides LV things. And he runs HushCon, so I talk about that a lot. And I'll be all over the place, but that doesn't need to translate to you or any one of us, like I'm gonna throw Danny under the bus because he's used to being there. But he is constantly involved in everything which is beautiful. And I love that about him, both as a friend that you've been being and somebody in InfoSec, but that doesn't need to mean that that's what you have to do to be successful. And just because you see one of us doing X, Y, and Z thing, doesn't mean that that's our trick or recommendation for success. And you don't even have to be InfoSec right now. You can be a Jason. You can be whatever you wanna be. You just wanna help get you to the point where like step by step, you're closer to what's making you happy in life. Awesome, where did Clay go? He, this came and he hid, right? He's like, I'm out of here. He's playing the, I'm the technical guy so I'm just gonna go and hide. Clay is still around, you wanna say something? That's a negative. He's gonna say something, go, go, go. I'm just thrilled and honored and humbled to be a mentor and I look forward to what the future holds. Classic Clay Awards, love you, man. That's Guvi. Yeah, well, I wanted to say something clever but yeah, a lot of folks here already did that. Maybe just one thing. I think you said that there's 200 people that are subscribed as a mentee. So I know that a few of us today worked on recruiting more mentors and I know that I've managed to have four more that I would personally love to have as mentors. So I'm extremely proud of some of the people that are coming in this program as mentor as well. So keep following. I think you won't be disappointed with what's coming. And of course, again, all of us here is, I think we're, or you guys are all good people as well. And I think I can learn also from you and I hope that we will be able to share also together. Awesome, thank you for that. So on that note, we actually did get some, maybe some non-figures, some of the ones that are not that much known, but we're all here trying to give you some time and we really want you to maximize the time. If you at any point feel like the match isn't working, it's completely fine as it said before. We also have a very important rule. If you ever feel like something isn't right, you can't report any sort of concerns and that's completely anonymous. And we're making a path to be able to deal with those things. So we want to make sure that you feel very comfortable and that their notion and against are taking place. Will any of those my or not? Well, we don't know, but we're doing our best part. At this point, we're running basically at a time. I want to invite you to continue be here with us on the Bluton Village. And then we are going to have game night from the Bluton Village. So if you want to see some folks that are here or other people partaking, we encourage you to stick around with us, play with that. I want to, the only thing I want to say is thank you, Muteke. You helped me quite a bit on this. Thank you all of you mentors to be part of this, you know, a program and journey. You know, I'm very looking forward to see what it is. And just, you know, there are plenty of conferences that are going to happen.   So there's plenty of opportunities. I'll end with, we have the Meet a Mentor's channel come in, sign up. If you're a mentor, please sign up, reach out to us. And another thing is if you are one of the villages in Defconn and you want to send a mentor, you want to partake with us, you know, come over, you know, you can take some of the stuff we're trying to build and, you know, take it over to your village. So, you know, be part of this adventure with us. And with that said, I just want to say thank you. And, you know, we'll look forward to hear from you. All right.


Near Khlyshivka, Ukrainian army covered Russians with heavy artillery fire. Ukrainian soldiers shelled the Russian occupiers with artillery. The defenders showed a video of combat operations in the Bakhmut sector. Soldiers of the 93rd Separate Mechanized Brigade, Kolodny Ya, worked on the enemy. The soldiers showed how they covered Russian infantrymen with heavy artillery fire near Khlyshivka in the Bakhmut direction according to the sensor media outlet. The defenders did not disclose the exact losses of the enemy. It is worth noting that Bakhmut has remained a focal point of hostilities for many months. During the summer counter-offensive, Ukrainian forces advanced on the southern and northern flanks of Bakhmut. However, the city itself remained under enemy control. Currently, the Ukrainian armed forces are launching an attack on the southern flank of the Bakhmut direction. Defense forces have also acknowledged that in the event of occupiers gaining control of the northern flank, Ukrainian forces should encircle Bakhmut operationally. It's important to add that earlier, the ground forces stated that Russians had intensified their offensive on the Bakhmut direction with renewed vigor. Military experts believe that the initiative around Bakhmut has shifted to the Russians.


from Las Vegas, it's theCUBE, covering Knowledge 16, brought to you by ServiceNow. Here are your hosts, Dave Vellante and Jeff Frick. Welcome back to the day three coverage of the ServiceNow Knowledge Now conference with theCUBE. This is our third day, the conference, I believe fourth day of the event. Fred Lutty is here, chief product officer, founder of ServiceNow, The Man. Welcome back, Fred, it's great to see you. It's always good to be here. So, you know, one of the people that inspires me, the great Earl Nightingale said, you become what you think about. You must be thinking really great thoughts in the last 10 years. Could you imagine 12,000 people at an event like this? Well, it's a wonderful thing and at the same time, you know, it comes with a great responsibility. The, and I'm very sincere about this, you know, the most precious resource we have that we can't buy more of is time. And so when people give us their time, it's very, very meaningful. And it's a wonderful event to see all these folks come together and I'm always overwhelmed.  They buy why you do it. So why'd you do it? Why did you start this company? Well, that's probably a pretty long story and we don't have that much time allocated, but suffice to say that I think many developers do things to actually have people say, you've done a nice job, to have people say, thank you, that's made my task easier. And I'm no, I fall right into that, right? I'm in that boat, right? So my whole objective getting up every morning is to do something that when I show it to someone, it will put a smile on their face because it will liberate them and empower them in ways that they hadn't thought of. And there's nothing, nothing more rewarding than that to me.  Just say, what the guys tell people, you know, focus, execute and delight the customer. That's the key to success. And the fact that you use the word delightful, I think it's a really special word. You don't hear that much in tech keynotes and it's not about, you're talking about single systems and developed fast and all this other stuff, but the word delight and the purposefully have that as part of the mission really shows a different point of view of how you expect the user of the application to feel when they're actually doing work. You touched on the key word there. And so if you look at, you know, I've been doing this since 1972 and the objective that you had with the machine from 72 to today has changed significantly. And so you use the word feeling, right? And so what constitutes something that's elegant? What constitutes something that's simple? And simple is a feeling that you get because it appeals to your senses. You look at it and you're happy with the way it looks. It makes you feel empowered. It makes you feel and it feels a certain way and it behaves a certain way and it looks a certain way. And so this has been the major focus now for the past couple of years. You know, in 2012 we started building the mobile app that looked very, very different from what we built in 2003. And this continues on now with the service portal. And it's all about user expectations, right? That we were all happy when we got our first motor roll of flip phone and could send a text by hitting the three key three times to get a certain letter. That was very liberating. Well now we don't have to do that. And so as technology marches on, the capabilities become more and more powerful. So you think about it, we live our lives, as human beings we live our lives in four dimensions.  You're missing two whole dimensions there. So if you'd start to think about down the road, what are we going to do? It's ever so much more exciting than it has been for the last 40 years. I remember the fax machine was a breakthrough, you know, just imagine going forward, right? But the other part that you said I thought was really interesting in the keynote was about the real world. We've had a lot of conversations about our, you know, kind of what we do at home versus what we do at work. And you kind of up leveled it a whole nother level. This is just the real world. And as you said, it's how we interact with the devices. And the scary thing I'm sure from a development point of view is best practices become expected, minimums really, really fast. As soon as we get that experience, of course we expect it. But as you said, it's the real world and getting that real world experience into what we do for eight, nine, 10, 11 hours a day. Right. And if you think about most business applications, so juxtapose real world with business applications, why do I do things in the real world? Because it's easier to use technology than not. In other words, my Uber app is so much more delightful than calling a cab company which I used to do and maybe they would send somebody. So that's my real life. And I used that technology because it made my life easier. In enterprise apps, largely people are compelled to use them. They have to fill out a form. They have to track their time. They have to fill out these required fields in order to get something started or approved. But that doesn't make their job easier. That's just something they have to do. That's where they start to equate their career to a job versus something of achievement. And I think over time that will erode. Certainly there's processes that must be followed. There's policy that must be followed. There's all sorts of compliance that must be followed. However, the vast majority of our time is spent communicating with others and solving problems and moving tasks along. And so you want that communication to be very, very natural going forward. And that's really been the thrust of this whole notion of connect, of VTB, of mobile, and now the service portal. Those four things have come together to create a completely new experience and environment with ServiceNow. So I took the nicest survey ever took this morning in the keynote. It was beautiful. And so, well, first of all, you said in 40 years of programming you've never been so excited about what you showed this morning. Correct. And it was awesome. I have to ask you, were you coding during the day one keynote? I was sitting across and I said, I think Fred's coding right now. Yes. I knew it. That's very simple. I did the calculation this morning. I was asked by the marketing people to dress like a developer for the keynote. And I thought, I have no idea what that means. So I calculated it is I've been, I've coded now for more than 15,000 days of my life, right? And I never once thought about what I was going to put on as a developer. So yes, I was probably coding then. And by the way, I don't know if you noticed, but in the demo, two things didn't work. I actually broke those this morning myself, right? So yes, I was coding and I shouldn't have been. I have to go, I have to now fire and reprimand myself. You're just the man to do it. So now let's talk about that survey. It was gorgeous, beautiful. It was fun. And you wrote that in record time, right? Correct. And again, so here's the deal. I know of a company that when a person joins, they're given an employee onboarding survey. That survey is eight pages long with 12 questions per survey. I, 12 questions per page. I can't think of anything that could be more effective in having a person say, what did I just do with my career if they expect me to answer all these questions, you know, on a scale of one to 10. Surveys, if I want somebody's opinion, ask them a meaningful question. Have them give me a meaningful answer. And to build something that is like that, people will be anxious to take your survey, right? Cause hey, that thing's pretty cool. It's gonna have a little funny graphic and it's gonna take me one touch of my thumb to answer the question. And so I'm going to take it. I'm gonna give you meaningful results. And this is the thing that, again, this is an interaction that you would anticipate. Oh cool, let's see what this week's question is from the HR department, right? I'm gonna answer that, not please fill in this 15 line survey. So it was delightful to build, but I think more importantly is, what did it actually show us? Well, people enjoy doing this. I took it three times. Wait, and you get the answers back. I will tell you that in Jerry's presentation where they're asking people to tweet, which is another way of taking a survey, we actually expected the results to be quite different. But now, in two minutes, we had meaningful results from our actual customers on what we should do. Talk about, you know, market guidance, it's awesome. It was awesome. And seeing the ticker in real time was phenomenal. And you said you spend most of your time now building widgets. Yes. Talk about that a little bit. Well, there've been a lot of attempts over the last 25 years by companies like Apple and like Next and like Microsoft to create these user interface environments that can be blended together. So in the case of Microsoft, you had Olay and for Apple and Next, you had WebObjects. Both of those, and there was something called OpenDoc as well that Apple was a part of. All of those died because they were too heavyweight and too bloated. But the concept of being able to mix things and to have that aggregate be a very beautiful UI is it's a great concept. And so with these widgets, we're really, I think, done a much better job than those that came before us at building an extremely powerful environment that can also be affected by what context that it's in. So for example, one of the widgets we had was check in. It's a very simple widget, press a button and what the button does is it does a geolocate on your machine and then it broadcasts this event saying, this person is in Las Vegas. Well, if there's a form also on that page that's listening for that broadcast event, it can now populate the address right into the ticket. So you don't have to integrate the capabilities together. They're in fact, they're decoupled but they're still, you know, they're very loosely coupled but they're very tightly integrated at the same time. And it means you can enhance this without breaking that and you can change this without affecting that. Is that similar to the way you've built the kind of the automated responsive design? Because I thought that's, you know, before, like you said, everyone was building mobile. This was a web browser on a smaller device and then we're purposely building responsive design but you showed in the keynote where, you know, you make your changes and then you just can quickly see kind of what's the responsive design output look like. So take that off of me. I don't have to worry about what it looks like on all the different devices. Yes, that was one of our primary objectives or primary reasons for selecting Bootstrap as the underlying CSS is that it takes care of so much of that responsive area. One of the things that we want, in 2003, the ecosystem for open source was almost non-existent. And so from 2003 till September of 2005, when we started selling, we really had to do everything ourselves. Now, the ecosystem of open source that is truly free, that is so phenomenally powerful. You look at what the people have done, Twitter Bootstrap, you look at the AngularJS stuff which is probably the most phenomenal technology I've seen for building user interfaces in my entire life. Why would we do anything like that when we can actually take advantage of those technologies? And when we take advantage of them, we're saying to everybody like me who develops widgets, you need documentation, good. There's 400,000 questions that have been answered on Stack Overflow regarding Bootstrap, regarding AngularJS, regarding jQuery. So there's just this wealth of information that people can tap into so quickly. And that's why we selected those three technologies which are really the winning three as far as low level DOM manipulation, formatting and to build Angular capabilities which really means you're working with a data model rather than even knowing what the user interface looks like. Yeah, and you said you're working on the world's best stack. You talked about Angular, Bootstrap, jQuery, Front Awesome was in there. Yes. Talk about the stack a little bit. So the stack is just a wonderful thing of beauty in that you have almost every tool you can imagine is A, right there. And if it's not there, adding it is simple. Why? Because the vast percentage of things that you see on the internet that are cool things that you're going to see in like a map, for example, or like the odometer that we showed, or like the flapping board, or even that slideshow that I showed at the end that you can swipe from side to side. All of that has either been built on Angular, Bootstrap, or jQuery. And so as a customer, as a user of this environment, you want your stuff to look good, well, I'm going to find somebody else who's already done the work. They've already published the work. They already documented the work. And what we've done as a platform provider is we make it drop dead simple to import that into your page and then have it work without causing any other harm to anything else in the environment. Right. And then the other thing you mentioned, and to take advantage of the device capabilities in that application. So if it is on a phone and you want to take advantage of the camera or the geolocation, which you may or may not have on your laptop, and then I would imagine then when you show something as cool as the watch like they did the first day, it won't be long before the little watch icon is up there next to the other two. And now you can write the code to develop the UI and the interface for the different form factor. That's correct. And again, so that's absolutely right. When we, our environment that we run, when you took that survey, you were running in a web browser. But if we had put that survey inside of our mobile app, which we can do because it's just another URL inside mobile, we have a layer called Cabrio. And Cabrio allows you to access the native phone capabilities that you can't from HTML. So you can get barcode scanning. You can get easier geolocation, easy access to the camera so you can take pictures. And this is really a great thing. And so we've added another layer that said, OK, you can now deploy this in the ServiceNow app in our mobile app. And you have the capabilities of the phone. And you've integrated GitHub. We saw that earlier today. That's pretty exciting. That's really exciting. I love to, when you come into the CUBE, I always like to pick your brain about futures, your true visionary. At Google IO yesterday, they opened up the conference talking about mobile, a mobile and cloud world. And then they went on and spent the vast majority of their time talking about AI. Yes. But people are just hot now. AI, cognitive, machine intelligence. What are your thoughts on that? You certainly see Apple with Siri and Facebook, Google working on it, IBM with Watson. What are your thoughts about that technology? You know, it's a new frontier. And for me, it's not a frightening one at all. It's a very exciting one. It's a frontier that started in 1949 with a book called Cybernetics, made up word about something that didn't exist. In fact, the person that wrote the book said, whenever you talk about machine intelligence, you should always start with the word cybernetics. And that is because you will put the other person at a disadvantage because that's not a word. We won't know what it is. And then, you know, they were all talking about neural nets back in the 90s. And the neural net was a great idea, and that, well, we're going to teach a machine to work like the human brain. There was only one flaw in that. We don't know how the human brain works. So machine learning and that kind of intelligence, which can be developed, I think, is staggering the capabilities you can get. So a lot of people don't realize when they're using an AI-based device, right? Well, certainly with Siri, Cortana, they're using, there's AI, lots of learning that's happened to understand voice. Another thing, if you've ever used a camera in a phone and it draws the little rectangle, there's a phenomenal amount of compute power that goes into an algorithm to find a face, right? I want to find a human face, not a dog's face, et cetera. And so what do I think about it? It's, let me just finish the story about the photographs. The way machines learn is pretty much by brute strength and they have to be taught. Machines don't arbitrarily learn things.  So the way the algorithm was developed, the machine learning algorithm was developed and recognized faces was they, the machine was given millions and millions of photos and told which one a face was and which one it wasn't. So as it tried and tried, it kept refining this algorithm. Well, they did one of the initial algorithms in Japan. So what difference does that make? Well, when they brought it here, it didn't work. Why? Because the machine had learned that people have black eyebrows. That's simple, right? So it's a brute strength thing. When Google taught, when Google taught, did Google translate? Which is phenomenal right now. The way they did that was again, was brute strength. They had first tried to develop algorithms for learning languages and translating and they said, let's give up. Let's figure out how the machine can learn. How are we going to do that? Well, we need to feed it millions of documents that are translated into many, many languages. What did they do? They went to the UN where things have been translated. The same document is available in 60, 70 languages. Then they went to the EU where the same document is available in 20 languages and they fed these machines all of this information and they learned these languages. So AI is not something I think to be afraid of. It's not how like, right? I mean, it's nowhere near that. I mean, the embarrassing things that Siri types out for me as a text message just really, that's the thing that tells you this is not that far advanced, but it can be very, very assistive. And I think that the opportunity for AI to pick up the most mundane of tasks, I think that opportunity is just, it's beautiful. And you think about, well, what are some of the other things that are AI? Well, the self-driving car, right? I have an eight-year-old. The notion of a self-driving car means what? My son will never have to drive drunk, right? He won't be able to. The car won't let him. The car will drive him home. I don't have to worry about that as a parent. There's both those other things to worry about. But that's one thing that you think, God, how liberating is that to think that my son will never be intoxicated behind the wheel of a car? I mean, that's just staggering. And for those people that are afraid of AI, I'm not sure what they're afraid of other than they saw 2001, they saw it 50 years ago when it was created. Do you see it impacting a developer's life in the near to mid-term, where you're actually communicating in a way that? The answer to that is yes. And I think, again, over time, people's expectations about what technology can do for them is going to be predicated on things they see in the real world, right? So Waze is a great example, right? Waze is going to give you a route based on the conditions right at the moment. And that kind of AI is very important and people are gonna expect that from enterprise type applications as well. And so the ability to integrate in voice, cognitive capabilities, again, that's a two-dimension machine. We live in four dimensions and the ability to bring in those other dimensions, I think is very, very important and AI is gonna be a big driver of that. Cognitive relies on data and quality data. I wanted to ask you about data. You have a lot of data. So that's one of the, I think, the big secrets about why can AI emerge now? Why couldn't it work in 1949? And one of the reasons is, computation power not withstanding, one of the reasons is there's mountains and mountains and oceans and oceans of data to actually sort there. Again, Google went and got all those documents right from the UN and the EU. What about us? Well, we have customers that open up 100,000 incidents a month and they're trying to analyze those by taking strict categorization, subcategory, priority, thing affected. The real value is in that text in what did somebody write? But if you go to a doctor and describe an illness you have, one doctor's gonna write the symptoms one way, another doctor is going to write them another way, but it's the same thing. So AI comes in to start to do analysis of these oceans of text and develop sentiment and start to give you real insight about how people feel about things. Not about whether something is broken or not or if it breaks five times a month, but how frustrating this is to an individual. And in the areas of like we're in, which is service, the feedback, the actual words that people use when they give service feedback are very, very important to determining sentiment and to help. So this stuff is going to be, we saw the whole Cognos BI thing come out as a way of exploring data that is very, very structured and the structure has meaning. But what about the things that are, you can't put structure in? How people talk? How they communicate? What they write down? That frontier is just, it's phenomenal. And that's a tailwind for you, I think, because if you think about computing over the years, it's been unknown technology, but known process, accounting or HR, whatever it is, the great thing about the platform that you've developed, the technology's now pretty known, but the processes are infinite. Now, granted, you're codifying a lot of known processes, but I heard today your customers did some huge number of custom apps that you guys didn't even know about. Right. The process of knowledge is just changing so quickly and your platform is able to adapt to that. Is that a fair interpretation? Yeah, it's very fair. We do a lot of things with your processes, right? So my next process is I'm gonna go to my hotel and pack my stuff, right? That's a task that I have to do. And to automate something like that, to describe that to a machine and have somebody program that, is just it's economically unfeasible unless you have thousands of people that are gonna perform these tasks hundreds of thousands of times in a year. Well, the beauty of this platform and the objective from day one was that regular human beings who could describe a task and the data surrounding it could actually create something to help automate that task. So let me give an example. Let's say you need to make an airline reservation. What fields do I need? You know, I need what day you're leaving, where you're going, where you're leaving from, et cetera. It's very easy to create something like that in the ServiceNow platform. I would venture a guess that there are very large number like 30, 40,000 said applications build, right? I would venture a guess that probably 90% of those people wouldn't think they even built an application. They just said, well, I just, you know, I built this thing and it has these five fields and that's how I track this and then we make sure this is measured. No, you built an application. Oh yeah, it does. It has lists, it has forms, it has reports, it has notifications, it has assignment. Hey, yeah, I did build an application. Well, don't hate me for this, but we're out of time. I can go all day with you, Fred. Thanks so much. Kind of go to San Diego and do one of these on the beach, I think. Back to the roots. Back to the roots with Fred at ServiceNow. We'll give you the last word on knowledge, 16, just your feelings and your thoughts. Yeah, again, people's most precious resources, their time and I'm just very, very thankful that people come and spend time with us. It's a great feeling. Well, we're very thankful to you and ServiceNow for having theCUBE here for the last four years, so thanks again and hopefully we'll see you next year. I hope so. All right, keep it right there. Everybody will be back with our next guest right after this word. Thank you.