We have enough firetrucks going up and down the Barbie Road full siren anyway, we're used to You still John EMT things that go by with full siren I John's a great guy Or what I want to do is I Leave them in this bed good afternoon Welcome everyone to the Durham Planning Commission. It's good to have you here this evening The members of the Durham Planning Commission have been appointed by the city council and the board of county commissioners were an advisory board to the elected officials You should know that the elected officials have the final say on any issue that's here before us this evening If you wish to speak on an agenda item, and I've seen many of you already do this We encourage you to please sign up to the table. It's on my left and just pay special attention to make sure you're signing up for The particular item on the agenda that you want to speak on this evening You will be called up to speak when it's time in the public comment period we asked that you state your name and your address clearly into the microphone and We will then be able to let you know exactly how much time you have Each side those speaking in favor and those speaking against are each given 10 minutes per side The time will be divided among all the different individuals who signed up to speak Finally all motions are stated in the affirmative. So if a motion fails or ties the recommendation is for denial Thank you again for being here this evening Mr. Brain Thank You mr. Chairman as we talked previously I just want to call everybody's attention to the rules of the quorum which are posted on the left side of Doors entering this chamber and in particular rule number 21 Signs such as I see out here tonight are permitted But you cannot block the view of the person behind you by holding up a sign And we're probably a little bit more forgiving than city council But if you do it at council you could be asked to take all signs out Thank you Thank You commissioner Brian and then before we have the roll call I would ask that everyone standing if you could please find a seat in the room That's a fire code standard issue and there are seats up the stairs on my left as well Those are available for the public as well Thank you, maybe we have the roll call please Commissioner I'll Turk here commissioner Johnson president commissioner gauche here mr. Brian Commissioner Satterfield here, mr. Durkin here Mr..  Miller here mr. Kenshin Mr.. Hornbuckle a commissioner hornbuckle has requested an excused absence Noted commissioner van Commissioner Gibbs Commissioner Williams present Thank you very much mr. Chairman. I will move an excused absence for commissioner hornbuckle Properly moved and seconded all those in favor. Please say aye. Aye any opposed Motion passes unanimously We will move to the approval of the minutes and the consistency statement from the july 10th 2018 meeting where there Any comments or will someone be ready to make a motion? I move approval of the minutes and the consistency statements as presented second Moved by commissioner Brian and seconded by commissioner Miller all those in favor. Please say aye. Aye. Any opposed? Motion passes unanimously I see commissioner Kenshin is present. It's a party now And we will look to the staff miss Smith for any adjustments to the agenda Good evening grace Smith with the planning department staff has does not have any adjustments to the agenda We would like to know that legal notice has been executed in accordance with state and local law and affidavits for those Are on file in the planning department and staff is here if you have any questions Thank you With no adjustments to the agenda. We will move to our first item Mission or gauche Before we open the hearing for our first item I would like to ask that I be recused my law firm is representing the applicant on that Great. Thank you. And before we have a motion to recuse commissioner gauche This is the first item the comprehensive plan future land use map amendment. This is a 1 8 quadruple 0 4 in addition to commissioner gauche's recusal request I Live I do not live in forest Hills, but I live nearby and for a future land use amendment change request a Notification is sent out to any neighbor who lives within a thousand feet and I have received a notice myself So according to the rules of procedure for the planning commission, I will need to recuse myself as well So we will look for a motion for a recusal of both myself and commissioner gauche Properly moved by commissioner Miller seconded by commissioner brine all those in favor say I any opposed Commissioner gosh and I will leave the chamber and Vice chair Hyman will now take over the proceeding for this particular case Good afternoon, and we will give our commissioners an opportunity to leave the space and we will proceed with the public hearing for item number a one eight zero zero zero four forest Hills I'm ready for the staff report Good evening. I'm Karla Rosenberg with the planning department. I'm here to present plan amendment case a 18 zero zero zero four forest Hills This will be a somewhat brief presentation tonight, but you have a more thorough summary of staff's positions in your staff report For this request the applicant mr. Timothy profeta is proposing to amend approximately 220 acres of the future land use map from medium density residential to various less intensive residential uses based on current zoning designations in In addition he proposes to move approximately 320 acres of land from the urban tier into the suburban tier these changes are intended to preserve past development patterns and existing neighborhood character This is an aerial map showing the position of the subject area with respect to the current and future Transportation corridors the Durham freeway outlined in yellow is located one half mile to the northeast and the proposed Dillard Street stop of The future light rail system out and in green is at point eight miles The current future land use map shows that the downtown development tier shown in white is located one quarter mile away The subject area shown with red and white hashes measures approximately one mile from north to south and one half mile from east to west The area is bisected. I'm sorry Areas bisected by the Forest Hills Park designated as recreation and open space the second largest municipal park in the county Land to the northwest and south of the subject area is designated medium density residential and land to the east is medium High-density residential a small commercial areas located to the northeast transitioning into the downtown design district When the 2005 comprehensive plan established the current development tier system it incorporated Forest Hills into the urban tier and Increase the future land use density of the entire area less the recreation and open space to medium density residential Which is the lowest density designation in that tier So here are some images showing single family home located at the interior of the subject area in his justification statement The applicant suggests that the current land use designation of medium density residential and the current urban tier designation ought to be Abended because they allow for denser development than what was originally designed in the neighborhood and what is currently on the ground The applicant also cites the importance of preserving the neighborhood's sense of place Born from its current very low doesn't low density It's circular roadway layout and its allowance for economic diversity and abundant open space These are some additional photos of the area these show the open space of the Forest Hills Park and Then some photos of the peripheries of the subject area including Kent Street Which makes up the western border of the subject area with large backyards fronting the roadway and some multi-family Development in the southern portion of the site Staff has reviewed the request against four criteria for plan amendments found in the unified development ordinance consistency with adopted plans and policies compatibility with existing or future land use patterns that there be no substantial adverse impact and that the subject area be of Adequate shape and size for the proposed use Starting with consistency with adopted plans and policies We found that the proposed amendment is not consistent with land use policies in the comprehensive plans specifically those regarding the urban tier definition Urban tier development contiguous development and demand for land uses The first policy supports access to urban services and provides opportunities for infill and redevelopment Staff finds that the proposal reduces access to services by reducing density where services and infrastructure are most accessible and that the request reduces in opportunities for infill by placing additional regulatory constraints on new development The next policy states that the land surrounding the downtown and compact neighborhood tiers should be designated as urban tier The subject area is located within one quarter mile of the downtown tier The third policy supports orderly development patterns that take advantage of existing urban services and avoids Non-contiguous scattered development onto the present proposal the subject area becomes an isolated area or island of suburban tier within the urban tier The proposal furthermore reduces overall access to urban services and infrastructure and increases pressures on development growing outward rather than inward Finally the fourth policy evaluates projected need for the requested land use in the future projected demands for residential dwelling units across Durham in 2045 is 192,500 units currently 225,000 dwelling units could be accommodated by the flow 60,000 of which would be located within the urban tier the urban tier currently accommodates only about 28,000 dwelling units showing that it is underutilized in its capacity for development So returning to the four criteria for plan amendments although the proposal may match existing development patterns We found that it does not match future land use patterns which show rapid growth particularly toward the city center We did determine there to be a substantial adverse impact with regard to infrastructure environmental protection and future demand for land uses all of which are detailed in the staff report and Finally staff determines that the site is of adequate shape and size to accommodate the proposed residential land uses The applicants request additionally includes a tier boundary change moving 320 acres of the current urban tier into the suburban tier There is a set of criteria set forth within the UDO to address tier boundary changes We found that the proposal did not meet the first criterion for tier boundary change Which is that the site be contiguous to the proposed here. These are the criteria for tier changes And so the requests do not meet all of the necessary criteria for plan amendment or tier boundary change and staff is not recommending approval of any portion of this request So I will be happy to take any questions that you have I'll be over with my supervisor and I also have We have the sign-up sheet which I can give to I do have it. Thank you I am ready to open the public hearing. I have a number of people who have Signed up to speak I have 15 people who have signed up to speak for so I'm going to our normal time is 10 minutes per Side so I'm going to need madam chairman. I move that we give every speaker regardless of whether they're for or against two minutes It's been moved and properly second that we give each speaker two minutes To speak so thank you all in favor of this motion. Let it be known by the usual sign of I Opposed thank you, and we will proceed the first individual is Mr. Brian Good evening vice chairman Hyman and members of the planning commission My name is Bill Brian, and I'm an attorney with a morning star law group here in Durham Tonight I am representing a group of neighbors in the forest Hills community called Durham neighbors together Who have filed an application for a flume amendment? For the entire neighborhood. I know this is not an ordinary application for you all The forest Hills is not an ordinary neighborhood, and it presents compelling reasons to change the flume everybody from D&T stand up, please Thank you As planning commissioners you are aware of the planning department's plan to revamp the comprehensive plan in the coming years a need for this is clear What you see here is a development tier map Which is a centerpiece of the current comprehensive plan the map was done primarily Primitively to fit a planning concept based upon a series of concentric circles emitting from downtown what you can see here The idea is that each of the successive circles is a little bit bigger and a little less dance with the last While this might make sense if you're starting with a blank slate in a green field The problem with this approach is that it does not take into account The built environment of the city and in Durham the built environment the existing neighborhoods is very important to the character of our community Forest Hills is one of the first neighborhoods in Durham that was built specifically as a suburban neighborhood However, our current comprehensive plan puts forest Hills in the urban tier You can see here the flume designation that designates the entire neighborhood as medium-density residential This calls for a density of at least six units per acre in as many as 12 units per acre This is what 12 units per acre looks like multi-family multi-story This is what six units per acre density looks like Clot clearly neither is consistent with any part of Forest Hills and Forest Hills is not alone This slide shows a number of historically suburban neighborhoods that are on the current Planning policy should be redeveloped at six to twelve units per acre what you see outlined here I think somebody one on my side will yield me an additional minute. I'm almost done Okay, what you see here Where were we? This slide shows a number of historically suburban neighborhoods that our current policy says should be redeveloped at 612 units per acre Some of them may be your neighborhoods What you see here outlined in purple is the current zoning map for Forest Hills Neighborhood one thing to note is a unique way in which the streets are laid out With somebody designer urban density neighborhood in this manner today. There's no way This is not only one of the unique features which went unaccounted for the 2006 comprehensive plan The main artery coming through Forest Hills is 15501 But it is only two lanes and cannot be widened without tearing down existing homes also There is no transit system in Forest Hills Medium-density residential or six to twelve units per acre simply does not make sense in this area What will we end up if the flume has not changed in patches of very high dent? What we will end up if the flume has not changed is patches of very high density development as some large tracks redevelopment with No adequate transit system a road system to serve them and they will be entirely inconsistent with the existing neighborhood So the flume designation that we've determined that makes sense is To use the existing zoning Our application therefore requests the flume designations of roughly match the existing zoning in the Forest Hills neighborhood It's important to note that our request will support more density and we've listed here on this slide What it does mean and what it doesn't mean But we're what we see here tonight ladies and gentlemen is a group of people who are trying to seize control of the planning Process for their neighborhood and that's a healthy thing Especially in a community like Durham Therefore we request that both that you approve the request and that you do vote tonight We would oppose most strenuously a continuance. Thank you for wrapping up your comments I'm going to call the I want to know the name of the individual to defer the time and then I'm gonna call the next four Individuals to speak Thank you, so Sandy heard I If I butcher some names, I apologize correct it when you get to the the mic the name was is it Silva Sylvan Robarge Am I close? Tom Clayton and George Vaughan That's the four. Okay, Sandy First of all, thank you for hearing us today My name is Sandy heard and I've lived in Forest Hills for 25 years and my husband and I've also had the pleasure of raising four kids in Forest Hills Clearly, we're all aware today that we are not here to talk about the pinecrest development as that's going to be addressed in a subsequent meeting in the near future However, I would like to say that despite the many unsettling moments over these past few months I'm actually really grateful that the pinecrest issue arose when it did because it served as a super powerful wake-up call for me And for a lot of people in this room who realized that we desperately needed to educate ourselves about the flume a Seemingly arbitrary map that actually has the power to irrevocably alter neighborhoods like Forest Hills in the lives of those who live there When we moved here in 1987 and I was returning to North Carolina having grown up here We made a conscious decision to live in Durham specifically because of neighborhoods like Duke Park Trinity Park and Forest Hills We felt thrilled to be in a place where we could lovingly restore an old house Be just minutes away from our jobs and very importantly to us meeting eclectic and diverse group of people Not just from our neighborhood, but from all over Durham in the Forest Hills Park Please know that we are not opposed to growth As a matter of fact many of us who have been here as long as I have actually consider ourselves the early innovators Who laid the groundwork for Durham's current vitality? So how could we be anything other than happy about where we are now? We're so proud of Durham and fully support its continuing trajectory We'd just like to see our city continue to grow in an intentional and not arbitrary fashion And it's such a way that it takes into account the myriad benefits that preserving neighborhoods like Forest Hills has to offer Not only to Forest Hills residents But to all of Durham and we think gaining approval of our flume amendment is critical to making that happen Thank you so much The next speaker and please state your name that I I'm Sylvia and we're bearish and I have lived at 1515 hermitage cart since 2008 and I'm going to talk about a few comments about Forest Hills as a historic area Forest Hills neighborhood is a national historic district Forest Hills principal historic significance is its ensemble of landscape and architecture the neighborhood was designed in 1917 by noted landscape architect Earl summer Draper It was the first subdivision in Durham whose design created parkland along the lowlands and whose streets follow the contours of the hills Rather than a rigid grid pattern First Hills contains varied residential architecture. They're both large and small houses and well preserved period revival and modernist styles Some houses were designed by noted local and national architects others will but were built from plan books or ordered from Sears and Roebuck Forest Hills epitomizes the desire in Durham's strategic plan for thriving and livable neighborhoods Forest Hills is now entering its second century as a neighborhood Please support the flum amendment So the citizens of Forest Hills may have the time to thoughtfully plan for the neighborhood's future via the NPO process Thank you Tom Clayton Thank you, my name is Tom Clayton and I've lived at 1016 Homer Street for 32 years in a vibrant diverse city like Durham our Future land use map as currently configured does not make sense No one with such a variety of interests needs resources and perspectives Would choose to live in home homogenized Concentric circles and indeed we haven't all across Durham folks have developed a patchwork of dwellings and living patterns of every type We all are fortunate that a distinctive feature of our city. It's the number of extraordinarily beautiful and stable neighborhoods close to downtown As an educator, I can appreciate the principle behind the flum as an elegant theoretical Concept, but in reality we humans are wonderfully unique artificially imposing Realization by drastically increasing density throughout the flums urban tier will never work and it shouldn't What the future land use map ought to resemble is a fully realized quilt Thank you. Thank you. I'm Mr. George Vaughan I'm George Vaughan. I live at 1022 Westwood and I've been there for the last 10 years I support the flum amendment and this is why when we learned of the rezoning at Pinecrest We discovered that forest hills was vulnerable to changes that were not in keeping with the neighborhood This is because of the 2005 comprehensive use plan and the flum We had no idea what these documents would allow in our neighborhood We discovered that the flum would allow a density of 6 to 12 dwelling units per acre in our neighborhood There are 21 lots in forest hills that are one or more acres and this totals 31 acres The flum would allow between a hundred and ninety and three hundred and sixty eight houses to be built on these houses Lots some are vacant lots others have existing homes The economics of today's housing market would make it worthwhile to tear down existing homes and rebuild using the much higher density This would destroy our neighborhood tear downs and inappropriate infill There is neighborhood support for maintaining our existing density Recently our neighborhood submitted an application for a neighborhood protective overlay The JCCPC approved it or advanced it on a vote of four to one The density limitations in our NPO are the same density limitations that we are seeking in the flum our NPO application was supported by 64 percent of the members of the Neighborhood and we have signed petitions to support that and we gathered those in under four weeks And I believe this shows a very high level of neighborhood support for our density existing density The flum will likely be revised in the next three years Our amendment will protect our neighborhood while the planning department does their job And I thank you and I ask that you decide in favor of the flum amendment tonight Forest Hills needs protection now Thank you. I'm going to call the next five people Nita ferrity Sue Watson Brent Wolf Lawrence Baxter and Tim Profeta, okay, thank you We're ready. Thank you. Good evening. Thank you for hearing us this evening My name is Nita Farahani and I live at 1544 hermitage court with my family. We're a bit of an odd Family to be representing and requesting that you approve the flum amendment tonight because we're one of the families who moved in To hermitage court and had a house deconstructed there. We were Excited by the neighborhood. We loved the character of the neighborhood We love the history of the neighborhood and sought to move into the neighborhood It's a challenging neighborhood to move into because it's such a popular one We found a house that we hoped to renovate and discovered sadly was in such disrepair that it could not be salvaged instead we had a deconstructed over a number of months by Habitat for Humanity and Had a home built there with an architect who's notable to Durham Phil Shostack But who built a very different kind of home than is the kind of home in Forest Hills We built a modern minimalist home That home was built with an architect who recognized and us who recognized the beauty and the unique character of Forest Hills He spent months studying the neighborhood Choosing a setback that was consistent with all of the other homes in the neighborhood Choosing a roof line what was consistent with all of the homes in the neighborhood Choosing white painted brick to echo the history of the neighborhood White stucco to echo the history of the neighborhood that kind of thoughtful Development led to a neighborhood who embraced our change The Durham neighbors together recognized the change to the inevitable some homes may have to be torn down Some homes may change but that kind of thoughtful progress in a neighborhood That has such a deep history is the kind of progress that we all hope to see Homes that can be preserved homes that may need to be changed Architects who recognize the unique character and wish to celebrate it and integrate it into the neighborhood Rather than destroying the neighborhood and installing multi-family homes there instead We were shocked to discover that in the place of our home there could have been six instead Thank you, and we asked that you approve the flama green. Thank you Sue Watson Hello, thanks so much for hearing us And hearing our opinions. I'm Sue Watson, and I've lived in Forest Hills neighborhood for 35 years along with my husband Paul Savry. He's here tonight We had two kids and raised them in Forest Hills and our present house looks out onto the park so we do a lot of Neighborhood watch on the park including litter and chasing off Teenagers that are up to no good. So we're very invested in in keeping our eye on things We've lived in I said we've lived in two different houses, but and we've been on East Forest Hills the whole time We fully support the flum change to match the reality of Durham It's craggy and hilly and crooked and Nothing about Durham is concentric circles. I Also, like many of you in this room have served on other nonprofit boards in this town and the thing that's so great about Durham is that everybody gets a vote and We are so used to letting Everybody talk and give up their opinion and hearing them and taking all stakeholders opinions to heart And I really really do appreciate the planning committee doing that for us So again, we support the flum amendment and thank you so much for your time. Thank you. Is that right? Yes, Brent Wolf. Yes, madam chair. I believe Tanya voice had signed up ahead of me Maybe she's on the list twice if it's all right name is here twice So I marked one out and moved it down to be all right if she went ahead of me. Yes, that is fine I will move her back up to the spot that I moved her from Thanks much, and I apologize apologize for the confusion. My name is Tanya voice and I live at 1014 West Forest Hills Boulevard I've lived in Forest Hills for nearly 10 years and I support the flum amendment This amendment will ensure that Durham remains the special and inviting place. It has become Thanks in no small part to the patchwork of uniquely leafy established neighborhoods close to a vibrant downtown Durham's population is exploding Ironically the city must now balance accommodating this growth with the very reasons for it Tonight, I'd like to focus on the unique and vital natural and recreational resources that Forest Hills provides all of Durham These include its park its green open spaces and perhaps best of all It's mature statues trees people from all over the city flock to the park stroll its streets run in our streets in fact in case of the of Durham's numerous road races and Want to make Durham their home because of neighborhoods and trees and green spaces like the ones in Forest Hills When I tell people where I live people will say I love that neighborhood It's got that big park and all the trees and cool houses I play frisbee there or I take my kids trick-or-treating there or we love to walk our dogs around there So you see we're still doesn't just matter to me. It's special to many people beyond the neighborhood I therefore or urge you to amend the flume so that growth is accomplished in a responsible way that appreciates the unique character of the neighborhood while protecting an important and irreplaceable resource for the city in Other words, please amend the flume to make sure that we keep Durham Durham and don't risk the very things that make Durham The desirable place it has come to be. Thank you so much for your consideration. Thank you and now Brent Wolfe Thank you very much. My name is Brent Wolfe and I live at 1412 Kent Street I live in the Long Meadow neighborhood next to Forest Hills I come in support of the flume amendment for Forest Hills because the neighborhood is an asset for the whole city I People come not just for the park But also to walk and run and bike the streets lined with beautiful homes and mature trees The neighborhood also welcomed city residents for events like Halloween. It's a Halloween celebration various charity runs and road races and of course it has one of the best sledding hills in the city and people come from all over for that Requiring urban tier development could lead to the disappearance of distinctive architectural styles and tree cover Durham needs density in the urban core and affordable housing But it also needs neighborhoods like Forest Hills that are accessible to all city residents Great cities have older neighborhoods like Forest Hills that give them their unique character and tell the story of how the city came to be great I urge you to preserve this part of Durham's unique character and to do it this evening. Thank you Thank you We have mr. Baxter Thank You chair Hyman and thank you commissioners for the opportunity. I'm Lawrence back style of a 10-10 Homer Street Before that I lived in another part of Forest Hills Oak Drive And I want to focus briefly on something that has not actually received a lot of attention except in a tangential remark By the head of the planning department that is the infrastructure We're probably all familiar with University Drive It is a congested road that is often extremely difficult or dangerous to get onto out of either East Forest Hills Or West Forest Hills It is a main artery for the city and it is not yet able to handle the current traffic let alone The future traffic the Durham area transport authority doesn't even run buses on it because of the danger of running such large vehicles When I lived in Oak Drive, I often experienced the situation where there'd been an accident or some other obstruction on University And when that happens the smaller minor streets throughout Forest Hills become very congested because vehicles take their alternative way They they spill out even onto little streets that are not fully paved like Cedar and certainly on to Kent And then at the end of that those roads spill out back onto University So the existing flum After 13 years has not yet seen infrastructure developed to manage the kind of growth that it would allow For that reason I would urge you to consider Supporting a voting in favor of our petition for an amendment to the flum because it doesn't reduce a thing Contrary to what was presented to you at the beginning of this meeting It simply puts in place what we have now and then requires developers until a new Infrastructure is created to demonstrate how they are going to manage that infrastructure Again, I support the petition and would urge you to vote in favor of it. Thank you. Thank you Tim profita Thank you, madam chair and thank you to all commissioners for your time and consideration and for hearing their request today I'm Tim profita. I live at 1014 West Forest Souls Boulevard. I've been there for the last nine and a half years and I wanted to actually circle back Clearly as a signatory for this request to talk about what today's request is not about and it's really not about the pinecrest development at all Others have claimed that we are asking for the flum to be amended to fight the proposal to develop pinecrest. That is wrong Actually, we hope we can anticipate a smart pinecrest development that can be incorporated into our flum amendment This commission is in receipt of the our offer communicate the pinecrest developers regarding their development I think they will acknowledge that we've engaged them in good faith to find a mutually agreeable resolution And in fact three of my neighbors and I were at the pinecrest developers office until past 8 p.m. Last night Trying to work out a resolution. I Also anticipate that some may suggest that last night's last-minute negotiations were to last minute and they need to be given more time First the fact they were last minute seems to have awoken the possibility of a resolution But we at Durham neighbors together have been asking for the same key terms Set number of units and support for this flum amendment since we first met with the pinecrest team in the spring and Second there is nothing to prevent us to continue to negotiate in pursuit of a mutually acceptable plan Even if this flum amendment is granted Now our request today has nothing to do with pinecrest other than that the development woke us up to the flums implications for our beloved neighborhood what today's request is about as my friend before me expressed is Changing the default assumption about our neighborhood's growth to one that respects its character and current development patterns is not arguing May I finish yes, please is not arguing for nothing to change our negotiations with pinecrest verify that But it changes the signal to developers about what we want forest hills to look like in 20 years and The most then the most appropriate means that dig into the details of everyone's passions views and beliefs about our neighborhood's evolution is the detailed neighborhood playing process which we initiated Through the NPO process What we're asking for today is until that exploration can happen Please pass this flum amendment so we can have the time to wisely how this To wisely assess how to evolve This jewel of a neighborhood that is forest Hills. Thank you Oh Christie Ferguson Right, you still have Gave two minutes or we still have one minute Okay, all right. Thank you. So the next individual Tom big part Okay, so Christie No, she's she's she's yielding it to rebel. Oh, okay. Thank you. Okay. I missed that part. Thank you um Ian Ian nightl nightl Okay, and The last well, that's it. Those are all of the individuals that I have who have signed up to speak for So that means I have two individuals then who have reserved their time for rebel two minutes each Okay Now I'd like to call those individuals who have signed up to speak now First of all, have I missed anyone who signed up to speak for and I do not have your name Hi, sir Get this gentleman over here. Yes If to the mic and give me your name Oh, all right. Hello. My name is Josh McCarty I live in Long Meadow and I would like to speak in opposition name and address 1613 living Street, I'm dealing with the individuals who is speaking for For the proposal, I want to speak against there will be time. Yeah, right. Okay, okay, so I Have a list of individuals who have signed up to speak against and I'll give you an opportunity Once again, I'll ask the question have I missed anyone who wanted to speak for the project and at this particular time if I have I will conclude all of the Individuals then based on the signatures that I have and I will move to the list of Individuals who have signed up to speak against. Thank you for my list, please That's all right, I'll call the next four individuals James seman Ken Spaulding George Stansel and Jay McLeod James Yes, James Siemens is first. Thank you My name is James Siemens. I own the property known as pinecrest at 1050 West Fards Hills Boulevard I've not contributed to nor am I a member of the DNT group. I'm not represented by Monic Morningstar law group The proposed flum amendment would prohibit planning development had planned development at pinecrest. I understand the neighbors Supporting the amendment are in discussions with the developer Regarding proposed development of pinecrest. I simply ask that more time be allowed for those discussions to continue. Thank you Thank you Ken Spaulding Good evening, madam chair and members of the planning commission. My name is Ken Spaulding. I represent the applicant for pinecrest Also, I want to say good evening to the forest hill residents that we have been working with so hard over the last year and Appreciate you being here. I think and I hope Now all joking aside, I want to say they have worked extremely hard with us as we have tried to come up with Something as relates to pinecrests that would be do two things number one be consistent with our current Comprehensive plan because when the developer came in to talk about it the planning staff indicated that this is the way you're gonna have to go based on your comprehensive plan we went to the neighbors the neighbors pointed out They didn't know that that type of density was allowed and this was as I think you mentioned last night a wake-up call and So what we have been trying to do over the last few months is to find a way of being consistent with the comprehensive plan and at the same time reducing the density and We had to end up shrinking our actual Had been 12 acres we shrink shrunk it rather to 9.1 acres and we're able to get it to where right frankly We had been at about 57 units when we started And we worked down to 48 and 45 and now we have given our absolute best and that's 38 unit for the development We had been told previously by some residents that 40 40 units or 42 units would have been Acceptable then there's some that that wanted to have a fewer amount and we understand that too This is an ongoing process. We hope We're asking for tonight for there to be a deferral of this for 60 days the reason for that is is that We come on the calendar for for your agenda September the 11th George waves attack We September the 11th we come before the planning Commission anyone resident opposition anyone could move and request that There'll be a 30-day delay by right So that would put us into October So if we were able to have the case here deferred on the flume until October for 60 days, we will be able to be there together. What's the importance of being there together? We very much would like for there not to be a vacuum that you're in or that the residents are in We're each and every resident here tonight would fully understand what we're trying to do Not only how hard we have worked, but where we actually are It is crucial to us that we be good neighbors in Forest Hills and That we be that we represent Forest Hills as it exists today and I have never worked as long as I've been doing this for 30 years in Durham It's hard to try to make sure that we blend together What the new development would be and to make sure that it's consistent compatible and the density is one that is acceptable to the residents and so We look forward to hopefully an opportunity to continue to work with the residents With the group that we met with last night D&T and others to try to be able to have a win-win situation I do want to point out that we did present and Make a proposal for compromise about two three three months ago We did not hear back until I believe it was Wednesday of last week And I talked with the lawyer about it and he explained the reason why we understand that And when he did get they did get back with us my client jumped in his car Came back from Atlanta To be here for a Monday meeting one more of my people And so that we could have that Monday meeting we did meet from five until nine I believe and and We've been making progress and in the process of making progress It's not just for this development But it's for also Forest Hills itself So we're asking for the opportunity to continue to work and to Create a win-win situation and to create something that will be a hallmark for Durham As the residents of Forest Hills have indicated to us we might not be able to get every single person to agree but we want to get the majority or consensus if at all possible and I think as people have seen what we have done the meetings we have held We even recognized that the first meeting that was held quite frankly I felt and so did mr. Stan's L that Forest Hills had not been appropriately respected and we changed the team of how we were going to address it and We addressed it in the way that mr. Stan's y'all and I have done for the last 30 years in Conclusion I would like to say again that I hope we have an opportunity to help create a win-win situation I hope that we will have an opportunity to continue to work together and I look forward to that. Thank you very much Thank you So that was both mr. Stanfield and J. McLeod gave up your time as well Is that correct? Mr. Stanfield Right there, it's J McLeod It's ma'am. Good evening. I had a presentation. Is it or I bring that up? Does anyone know? Floated on here, and that's not it Good evening, my name is Jay McLeod and I'm a professional planner with Stewart where I work with Local governments and residents across the state to craft comprehensive plans and future land use amendments and updates and I wanted to discuss a little bit the The application for the flume amendment first off it is Regressive in two respects it downgrades the tier of development as well as the density if this was commonplace Durham would still be farmland This isn't the way that future land use maps work And it's not I'm sure it's not the way that it was envisioned in 2006 when it was created and adopted by the residents of the community The forest Hills neighborhood If developed if changed the tier and density would create a gap as staff said in the development pattern And it would be in opposition to the adopted future land use policies in the comprehensive plan and lead to leapfrog development Displace growth from the city center and reduce housing opportunities close to the city senator and lead growth away from that area The forest Hills site is indeed urban and location. It's about a 10 or 15 minute walk from here The stated policies in the comprehensive plan to support that would look to encourage infill development And as well as it is within about a 10 minutes walk from, you know, the downtown of a city of almost a quarter million people As a sizable number of the parcels and forest Hills are vacant those are the light pink color as opposed to the purple which are occupied That's almost 10% of the area excluding the park Two homes per acre I think is quite easily arguably not the highest and best use of vacant property this close to the city center And even staff has noted that parcels along Kinstreet or an opportunity for redevelopment And to conclude these are following some additional goals from the comprehensive plan that were adopted That are in opposition to the flume amendment Thank you very much. Thank you I'm going to call the next four individuals April Johnson Connie Siemens decales and Chris woods So April Johnson. Yes. Good evening. My name is April Johnson. I'm the executive director of preservation Durham The forest Hills neighborhood is and pinecrest are valued and important historic places and land use policies and decisions That affect either are important to preservation Durham and our members We have studied the issues toward the property several times and have met with the developers We've we've heard from neighbors who both support and oppose the development on various aspects of it We are pleased that the development plan commits to preserving the historic structures and pays for it with an infill density of less than four units per acre But we have abstained from officially endorsing or opposing the specific plan to give the primary stakeholder space To work with each other on the details We understand that the two sides are getting closer to a decision We are here tonight to speak to a related but larger issue that could derail those negotiations The disconnect between our future land use map and the existing density and forest Hills This is an issue of great concern for us which affects many of our historic inner ring neighborhoods Many of which lack the protections offered by NPO neighborhood protection overlay or a local historic district We support infill development that as density where appropriate but not at the expense of these historic traditional neighborhoods We believe that this is a larger issue that deserves more serious study and public input as part of the comprehensive plan update Our process we now understand is just beginning We asked the Commission to either to we asked the Commission to defer action on the proposed changes to flume This evening a rush to either approve or deny a flume update doesn't solve the larger policy problem And it could under my months of negotiation on the pinecrest project Thank you for your consideration.  My name is Connie Siemens. I live at 1514 hermitage court. I've been a resident of Forest Hills for 12 years I'm a Siemens family cousin. I'm a supporter of historic preservation and a proponent of smart urban development As you know Durham has been propelled through a decade of rapid revitalization and extraordinary success However, this has not come without serious growing pains including increased suburbanization loss of rural buffers and natural habitats increased traffic issues and immense housing pressure The conference of plan is designed to help us with this growth in a way that protects the viability of our city and Controls suburban sprawl while protecting the quality of life, which has drawn so many to our beloved town As you know, we are also experiencing an extremely extremely limited housing inventory This has spurred gentrification both in middle-class and aspiring middle-class neighborhoods within the urban core and Quake and neighbors of Forest Hills It exacerbates affordable housing for our most vulnerable citizens While I appreciate the intention of the flum amendment to protect the integrity and character of my neighborhood I do not think this is the best way to accomplish that goal I strongly believe that we can put measures in place that can protect the quality of life of Forest Hills residents Along with its historic integrity while also accommodating smart urban infill and carefully planned density These goals do not have to be mutually exclusive Indeed thoughtful development and plan density can not only support the future and character An integrity of our existing housing and life of its residents But also be a leader in improved living conditions and a more vibrant diverse community I do not feel like the proposed flum amendment is the is the best and correct approach to future development or historic preservation I urge you to Not to recommend this proposal but work with Forest Hills and the greater community to revisit the flum its goals and existing conditions Thank you. Thank you Mr. Hales Good evening. My name is Dick Hales Good evening commissioners Could you please state your address? Yes My address is 100 Broward Cliff Road in Durham in the Forest Hills neighborhood. I Appreciate your all-service and to the community in note Commissioners Brian Miller and Gibbs were on the commission. I left the planning staff 14 years ago. So Especially single them out. I Was a 24-year employee of the Durham City County plan department before I was over Greensboro plan director For a returned home. I'm also work as a planning consultant In addition, I recently convened a meeting this past Sunday of some of my immediate neighbors About concerns with each of Angie's map request I live in a part of the neighborhood. I term it Southwest Forest Hills It's a long University Drive and some of the connecting streets The majority of the lots in my neighborhood and just from spot check and I would say 75 percent of them Are less than a quarter acre in size? That means the density of the lots and I consider this a heart heart of Forest Hills, but it's not the larger lots down by the park range from 7,000 to 10,000 square feet quarter acre is 10,000 890 square feet. So the current Nature of our part of the neighborhood is greater than four units per acre Accordingly We oppose the future land use map designation of this area to low density residential Which is less than four units acre. It doesn't fit the developed portion of our neighborhood We do support designation of this area as low medium density residential four to eight units per acre Which does fit the existing character of the area And because of some of the confusion on this and also other lots that I didn't have a chance to look at I would recommend that a proposal be brought back that looks more carefully either with the applicant or the staff at appropriate boundaries to make sure that other properties aren't being pushed out of Floom designation if we're gonna fix this. Let's try and fix it right. Thank you. Appreciate your time Arthur Rogers Ray Williams Andrew Jacobson Good evening, my name is Arthur Rogers I live at 1535 hermitage court in far stills and I've lived in the neighborhood for 23 years. I Agree that the future land use map is not perfect. I also believe that the pinecrest development has merit Therefore, I simply asked that you delay this decision So that both the future land use map change and the pinecrest rezoning can be considered together. Thank you Thank you So Ray Williams and Andrew Jacobson My name is Ray Williams. I live at 1709 Wallis Street and Long Meadow And I fully Understand the concerns of the current future land use map having unintentional consequences on What is successful and built neighborhoods? The way I perceive it is that or what my concern is is The goal is to circumvent Unintentional consequences of of dense development within low density areas and It I would like to see the future land use map addressed holistically equitably through all neighborhoods in Durham I think when we look at it as all neighborhoods together Rather than peeling off certain neighborhoods Will correct what is wrong with the flum More successfully And Andrew Jacobson and Josh McCarthy We're ready for you. Good evening My name is Andrew Jacobson. My family and I lived for about five years at 2304 University Drive I Hate density Actually, it's that I think it's the term density that it is like The word density is often used in a negative context. It's a bugaboo, right? It's equivalent for many adults of Monster-hyden under a child's bed. It's used often equated with clear-cutting ugly building materials inappropriate buildings Increased environmental effects or pollution even reduced safety But I think density is Density much like other terms in housing and development context is a loaded term However density is often only recognized when it's done poorly Densities sensitive to neighborhood characters are achievable using techniques like high quality Construction high quality design retention of green space Matching existing building characteristics to the neighborhood things like that when done properly Higher densities can blend into the neighborhoods and are accepted There already exists within forest hills substantial variations in density. I Support increased housing densities in smart locations adjacent to city services Increased density and diversity in housing types increases efficiency of city services Dense and diverse housing types can mitigate housing choices and challenges And then almost in many environmental issues such as water quality climate change increased density Is environmentally beneficial? Proposed a flume amendment directly challenges the ability to increase the density and diversity in neighborhoods surrounding downtown I've read the staff report and I support its recommendations I think it would be wiser not to carve out an exception for forest hills and Stret and instead address issues of housing density and affordability Holistically through the comprehensive plan process that's forthcoming Thank you Hello again, sorry about before Josh McCarty 1613 Biven Street again So what what gets me worked up enough to try and skip everybody in line is that I'm passionate about Walkable dense mixed-use neighborhoods and packs passionate about good urban design Passionate about a lot of the things people have articulated here They have to do with design more than they have to do with an arbitrary measurement of how how we measure a place All right density, you know they showed some couple a couple pictures in that first presentation Was it six units looks like this 12 units looks like this well 12 units can look like a lot of things You'd be surprised how dense places like a lot of places that people have mentioned is being good places like Parts of Charleston Austin places like that even young not even have to go right in the core of them get further out Density doesn't have to look like like what you're imagining. So that's what I'm passionate about and I get really nervous when I hear when I hear efforts to try to restrict the ability to do development to You know all the great things that folks have been talking about the park all the amenities I Don't I don't want those things to be exclusive I want Durham to have enough space for everybody and part of that means that all the neighborhoods that are urban Have to accommodate that space and so let's talk about this map because I'm a map guy and this map doesn't make any sense to me So this is what I got in the mail and you can see like right here There's downtown right and so so this is this is right now. It's urban and this is going to become suburban Somebody called it regressive. So I've been thinking of it as a past land use map Because if you go back to 1950, this was probably the edge of well, no, it was it was the edge of town Well, that was a long time ago. So the edge of town is moved and then right now this is smack in the middle of Durham, I mean, it's it's not it's it's central. It's close to downtown. So It just doesn't make any sense to me to to create this suburban island right in the middle of the city And then you know, what what does that say? What precedent does that save set for? The other neighborhoods that are inside of this that Decide that they don't want to go by the comprehensive plan. Thanks Thank you. I Spoke to two individuals On Christy Ferguson and Tom Weisloff reserved time to Did I skip you Well, I apologize and I am going to give you Your time at this time my apologies. Thank you very much. My name is Bob Chapman I'm the one who thought it was a good idea to lecture everybody at the first meeting Considering that you all are so highly educated many professors I thought a lecture would be appropriate and I talked about Earl Sermon Draper and I talked about John Nolan Who is the father of the new urbanist movement, which is I'm part of I too with Josh was a sort of astonished by the pictures of density When you have bad design Density makes bad design worse when you have great design. It can make it better When I when the Siemens when James Siemens and Margaret Rich called me and said Because I'd been a long time friend of their family. They wanted some advice. I Went out and recruited the best designer in America Lou Oliver and one of the best builders Bill Clark I think when you look at the actual area The proposal was to build 4.8 units to the acre which is in the low to mid range density That was the 57 number That's 9100 square feet per house 552 of the 1370 eight houses within the radius of Forest Hills, which is 3250 feet Or smaller that's 40% as excuse me the lots are smaller higher density 20% of the blocks in Forest Hills Josh McCarty did a map and showed it to me Or at a higher density than being proposed I think it's very important and I would ask you all to support The comprehensive plan there were over 50 meetings public hearings Whatever they were called various get-togethers To prepare the plan and it makes sense and if we start taking it apart piece by piece Durham will not be able to provide the housing that's necessary and every house that's not built at Forest at Pine Crest Means that another house is going to be displaced somewhere else in Durham. It could be West End or East Durham and In the real estate development business The value of the land is 20% of the sales price of the house every time you cut back a house you increase You have to increase the price of the house to pay for the land If you had more houses and they were beautifully designed after a certain number the land is free So everyone you've cut out Requires the houses to be bigger and more expensive and I don't think that's the right way for us to go. Thank you Thank you. Let me clear something up. Mr. Chapman. I did not have your name on the list Were you speaking Yeah We had two individuals that signed up on the wrong sheets. Oh, okay. Thank you I meant it actually signed up on a different case and we had a thank you that had signed up on a different case Thank you so much Okay, and there is another individual that I have on this second list penny He's not okay Let me double-check to see if Chris woods is here Because I did hear that mr. Woods was no longer here. So you are Okay, so mr. Townsend if you will come forward I will put you on the correct sheet now you are four or Thank you. I think I'm four. Okay. I am We're my against That's what was very confusing today. I'm against the flume so you can you can call how do you want to describe? That would be yeah, sorry about my name's Doug Townsend. I live at 21 oak drive I appreciate the opportunity to quickly get up here and speak to you all tonight I'm first of all very pleased to hear the Durham neighbors together and Phil Clark are talking. I find that great I find it good for all of us at the same time I want all of you know that there are many people our neighborhood don't have an idea what a flume is I Want to speak to the side of I have originally very much against this but the more more I looked at it and looked at what Phil Clark's history is of the responsible development He does I think 13 acres in an urban tier is very unique. It won't happen much around here We have got to focus on quality builders that have plenty of capital behind them and can come in and do cluster development So that we can protect the trees and things that we have in this neighborhood I'm not at all afraid about what Phil Clark will come in here and do in this neighborhood I think he will be a great thing for forest hills I just want all of you all to know that there are very many a lot of us out here that feel very strong Lee that he would do good quality work for our neighborhood and we're very much supporting what he wants to do So, thank you very much. Thank you Now once again, I have completed the list, but I did have one individual to deferred time for rebuttal There were two individuals mr. Metzloff and miss Ferguson who deferred time for a rebuttal Yes, and I'm gonna take that time. Okay, mr. Ryan a little bit of it at least okay There are a couple of points that I think that are that need to be Addressed here that we'd like to say in light of what the comments that have been made first the notion that somehow That there can be no can we really didn't want to talk much about pinecrest And I don't want to talk about pinecrest now But but the reality is is that will I was there last night and we'll be there tomorrow night Or whenever it is we'd get together to meet again. We can continue meeting your vote on this We'll have no impact on that whatsoever and I would encourage you to go ahead and vote and be confident that it is going to have no impact whatsoever on our ability to Have a conversation about this going on About the pinecrest project which will be before you in 60 days or 30 days whenever it is The one thing I would like to point out and except for mr. Chapman who I must admit is Is unique in this regard? Nobody has come forward tonight to support the comprehensive plan as it stands now and there's a reason for that It makes no sense There is there that for this area to be in six to twelve unit first with the official policy Of the city and county of Durham right now is that all? Development and redevelopment in this area has to be a minimum of six units per acre That's what the official policy of the city of Durham is right now That makes no sense. It makes no sense for the city. It makes no sense for the for the for the for for the neighborhood We have moved to try to bring this issue to a head and to move the issue forward and We can talk about how the planning department is going to be addressing this over the next three to five years But we don't have three to five years in the in the given the way the market is moving right now We have plenty of open space There's plenty of spaces that are up for redevelopment and we're very concerned about that We want to be able to move forward now To address this this comprehensive plan future land use map issue and as a result We request that you support that you vote in support of the flow of amendment on the one hand and on the other hand that you vote Putting this off is not going to make it change. It's not gonna help It's not gonna do anything but but drag things out We're here to move forward. We would like to move forward. Is anybody else everything they want to say Not we appreciate your time. Thank you very much Thank you so much, mr. Bryan That completes the list of individuals that I have we have signed up to speak Once again, if there are no other individuals who wish to speak for or against It is time for me to close the public hearing and give our commissioners an opportunity to ask questions now if our commissioners Would like to ask individual A question of it particular individual then they will have an opportunity to come Forward and then speak to the commissioners Otherwise, no other questions can be entertained after I close the public hearing So I'm going to close the public hearing and give our commissioners an opportunity to ask questions I'm going to start to my right Okay, I'm going to start with Commissioner Al Turk Followed by Commissioner Johnson and Commissioner Brian Okay Thank you vice chair and thanks to everyone here for coming and for the emails and for the input It's a it I think it's a good sign that we're all interested in how neighborhoods grow and how Durham grows It makes me a little anxious, but it because we have to vote on these kind of things, but I it is It is It's a good sign of How things are going in Durham I have just a few questions one for the applicant and then a couple for staff and then a few comments So the question to the applicant we have here in the staff report Some information about the meeting that you had in February. So is that Is that the only meeting that you had the only public meeting that you had and can you Is this the map that you showed at that meeting it is and we we held the public meeting in accordance with the requirements of the UDO at the Episcopal church we had two meetings, okay, and we had about I'd say 50 people maybe okay, but there were no Alternative maps or there was no discussion about you know, what were there any conversations about which? parcels should go in which Category in terms of the flum. I mean was that discussed a proposal that we that we floated at the time as the same proposal We floated today, which is to match the zoning designations to the flum designations. Okay. Thank you I have a question for the transportation folks You know someone mentioned that You know University Drive is really congested. I looked online today It looks like according to ncdot. There's 18,000 Trips a day. Do you know what the capacity is of University Drive and then I have a couple of follow-up questions if that's That's okay We usually have these in staff reports for rezonings, but I think for a plan amendment. We don't so yes bill judge transportation No for plan amendments. We don't typically look at it. So I'm not exactly sure which section of University Drive at 18,000 It was right right by the park I guess Or you know right there. Yeah. Yeah, typically a Yeah, two-lane Road with turn lanes with the left turn lane at major intersections Is a has a capacity of I believe it's 17,700 okay, so it's right above capacity and writer. Okay, and is there anything To preclude. I mean is from an infrastructure perspective. Why are there no buses that go down? I mean aside from whether Go Durham wants to have buses go down there. Is there something about the road itself that Makes buses go down, you know Not a good idea down that road on University yes No, I mean it is business 15501 State has designated it There's number of things that go into transit routing and We're constantly looking and adjusting routes, but yeah, there's no no known prohibition. Okay, so in the future There could be public transit there. There's and then there could be road improvements that would Increase the capacity of the road is or is there something about the again the something about the road that would preclude then Yeah, I'd have to go back and review our Comprehensive transportation plan to see whether or not a Widening would be proposed on university off the top of my head. I don't recall that that it has been As part of that they I guess a termination has been made that that the existing Cross-section other than I think it's probably just got safety improvements bicycle lanes sidewalks. I see but not necessarily a widening to like a Four-lane road. Okay. Thank you So that so I also want if you don't mind Carla. I just have a couple of So the map that we've been shown in our staff report is the Comprehensive this the flum right it is the future land-use map Attachment one. I'm sorry. Are you referring to attachment one? Yes attachment one, right? But there's no there's no zoning designations on that map, right? But when so again, I went online to make to check the zoning designations and most of the lots are zoned RS 20 RS 10 and RS 8. Is that correct? Correct. Okay, and so by by Just an estimate. I think half of the lots are RS 10 RS 8 which allow for Somewhere up to four and maybe more units per acre. Is that correct currently and then a third? I would say our currently zoned RS 20 Which would allow up to two units an acre? Right And so there are only about 20 lots I counted that would allow for apartments and duplexes currently Which are the Ru5 would allow for condos or and duplexes Down in the southern and then the southern portion. That's right where Summit and Roxboro intersect more or less And those and there are already apartments there, right? I mean those have been built I think those were built in 1970s and 80s So so it seems to me well, I guess let me ask you another question So if someone was to tear down a house on a half acre lot and wanted to build Two units or a duplex they would they would not be able to do so under most Under an RS 20 designation, correct They would have to come to us and the city council to get approving for approval for a rezoning That's correct, right? So in almost every for every almost every parcel that we under consideration here If someone wanted to build something a little bit more dense, they would have to come and get approval for a rezoning Right Right, okay, but part of the problem is if they do that they would have to be consistent with the comprehensive plan Which says you have to have at least six units and I think that's where there's some of the frustration But having said that so so there is inconsistency, but having said that That the impetus is still on the developer to Show to us and to prove to us that it makes sense to have something more dense in Forest Hills is that Because they would have to come here and and ask for a rezoning. Okay, so, you know, I I guess I mentioned all of that Just to say that we Again, the impetus is still on the developers to show us that more density is appropriate for this neighborhood I'm just very hesitant to vote in favor of an application that decreases the density of the flum this drastically You know, I think the proposed decrease from six to twelve units an acre To less than two units an acre in most or in a third of Forest Hills and to less than four units an acre in More than half of Forest Hills where it's orange right now Just seems too drastic of a drop to me if the proposal was to to To go from six to twelve to four to eight Which is the medium density Sorry, the low medium density, which is something that Jake mentioned, right? I think that would be a it's that would seem to me like a compromise between The flum which seems maybe a little out of place and the current Zoning designations of RS 20 and RS 10. So You know the flum as the name implies is forward-looking and I think that we should allow for some increased density in this neighborhood as You know Durham grows every neighborhood is going to have to bear some of the burden And I'm not suggesting the six to twelve units makes sense in This neighborhood, but I do not think that less than two units an acre makes sense for a Good portion of it and less than four units an acre You know it makes sense for more than half of it I also just a couple of things about process. I don't see the urgency in this. I I Looked at the county tax records, and I think there have been 16 new developments in Forest Hills since 2005 that's approximately one a year and There are almost all of them are single-family homes that it does not seem to me like there are g's You know these developers coming in and building high density apartments in Forest Hills And that it is threatening than the character of the neighborhood currently as it stands So for me the urgency is not there, and I'm not suggesting that it's not going to change the next 10 to 25 years And I'll just again I think we should proceed cautiously a number of people have said this that rather than focus on density We could focus on design like some people have mentioned like I think Connie and Josh mentioned and this I think can be done through the NPO process I Voted for the Old West NPO not only because of the contents of it, but I think because of the process There were multiple meetings. It was a multi-year process, and there were compromises made I think there is you know people here for it and against this flum, and I think that we need a if we're going to Make a decision about you know a considerable portion and a you know 220 acres and make this drastic cut I think it needs to be a longer process both with planning staff and With you know multiple meetings and and and I think for that reason as it stands right now unless I'm convinced otherwise I'm I'm will probably vote against this. Thank you. Thank you commissioner Johnson Thank You vice-chairwoman so I I'll start by saying that I concur with Almost all of the comments that My colleague here just made but let me start by just thanking everyone for coming out and sharing your thoughts and perspectives on The application that is before us tonight I won't I have a series of questions, but for the sake of allowing my colleagues here to chime in before it when starts falling asleep how I'll make a comment and then and pose a question or two to staff I want to start off by saying that from both the Proponents and opponents of this Application before us tonight. I think it's fair and to my to my colleagues on the commission I think it's fair to say that this is not a conversation about directly about affordable housing I would even be pressed to states to say that this Conversation and discussion that we're having tonight. It's not about workforce housing This is a unique situation about a higher echelon neighborhood in Durham, North Carolina That is looking to either preserve or maintain a quality of life that they have come to value. So there are tangential Implications regarding affordable housing as was stated by one of the commenters that if if someone is looking to put a high a high price house somewhere in Durham and Forest Hill, which is Repository of such houses is not a viable option It's going to go somewhere in Durham and that's going to take a space for a potential affordable housing or Or a workforce housing unit here in Durham So there are implications for what this discussion is about affordable housing, but it's not about affordable housing for this phone change So I'll just pose a question to staff a Number of the commenters tonight noted, you know issues about maintaining the aesthetics You know the feel of the Forest Hill community and neighborhood and so my question to you just for clarity and Correction of based on some assumption that I may have is that Will changing the flam as proposed tonight create any Barriers are restrictions in regards to the aesthetic nature of what could be developed on land Well Rosenberg planning department, so our unified development ordinance provides infill standards for new development Within existing neighborhoods within the urban tier and so those infill standards regarding setback Building size, etc. Would need to be met They don't specifically address materials and such but those could be addressed for Multi-family development in the future. We don't currently have infill standards that address Those factors, but we could develop those in the future We also have other tools such as local historic districts that allow it's an overlay a zoning overlay That could be used also to protect specifically the historic character Thank you, so and just so I can confirm that I heard what you just said, so One thing for the record mr. Johnson. Yes, so we the state Are enabling legislation from the state of North Carolina does not allow us to regulate Aesthetics on single family right now You may or may not have seen in the past a development plan that's come through that may have design standards for such That is totally a voluntary proffer that a developer could make But just run of the mill straight standard UDL language or every day unified development ordinance regulations does not Address aesthetics for single family. Thank you very much. So just Stare you may so just so I'm hearing Confirming that I hear you correctly if we were to vote in favor of this flam request change requests tonight We still could not leave here and ensuring members of the forest Hills community that Stuck oh our roof lines or whatever it is from an aesthetic standpoint Oh, you know what makes it for us heel from beyond the density would be a guaranteed outcome for whatever comes on to a lot that's torn down and rebuilt or an empty lot now So am I hearing you saying that there are other Processes or checkboxes that must be met beyond meeting the flam or complying with that in order to ensure that that is a an outcome in this community So Carla Rosenberg planning department and the flam does not dictate anything about aesthetics if somebody were to Choose to develop something and would need require a zoning change then they could Have a development plan associated with that zoning change and then proffer certain Things regarding aesthetics or building size or anything. There are a lot of Factors that could be addressed in a development plan. Thank you very much. And so am I concluding comment? I will say that one of the concerning Outcomes from this request tonight is the reality that what is being asked for is actually a Reduction in the density for this particular community and what was we're looking at where Durham is going in 2005 No, one I wasn't I was I came to back to Durham in 2012, but back in 2005 I don't think anyone would have foreseen just the rapid growth that's happening In this city across this city And so the reality my my take is that we all no matter what we live in Durham have to be willing to Share and what it means to grow and so the question becomes Where is the give and the take in regards to? the density issue if you're asking the Commission to vote in favor of reducing what could become a part of the Forest Hill community versus and I agree the The flam as it stands could be seen as a little extreme with the 6 to 12 But if you was asking me as a test question where it would be the middle ground It wouldn't be below the starting minimum It would be somewhere in the in the middle and that's something that's concerning to me and with that out See my thank you Commissioner Brian followed by Commissioner Satafee Thank You Madam chair. I also want to thank everybody for coming out tonight and for all your messages In fact, I don't think I have an email folder that's Ever been this full I Have some well one of the things that concerns me is that although I know most of you didn't come down here tonight to even consider pinecrest unfortunately this request for the tear change and the pinecrests thing do seem to be tied together and That bothers me because we've heard your side. I would like to hear their side I've heard a little bit about it, but I haven't heard the full thing I don't know for sure exactly what they might propose what might be on a development plan Etc. Etc. And For me in fairness to the effort that they have put in I would like to hear What they have to say before I would vote on what you've asked for that's just me But there's some other things too I think that The suburban tears that you're asking for May or may not well first of all, I think the boundary that you Have proposed might need to be looked at I heard what mr. Hale said What you're proposing doesn't fit with the part that he lives in We've received emails from a number of people who say we don't we absolutely don't want to be a part of it if they're on the edge of what you could exclude and And one thing that bothered me a little bit is that the letter I got From a law firm representing a property owner saying that the owner don't want to be in this Made me wonder if you if it was approved with somebody turn around and see you but I don't know Another consideration for me is I'm not sure that You're aware perhaps What can be done in the suburban district? I've lived in I live in a suburban tier of Durham and I've seen development go on very close to me If you care to drive down to where NC 54 and Barbie Road intersect and take a look around You can see something about what I'm talking about That's possible in the suburban tier and I don't think some of it the way it's done and where I live Would really do anything good For forest hills, but it would be allowed in the suburban tier and I think that you need to give that some thought In terms of infill Development and residential developments I've looked at My copy of the UDO and for both the suburban tier and the urban tier the infill standards Really applied to multifamily development on a site that's less than four acres If somebody puts together a piece of Property that's more than four acres and presumably these standards, you know, they're out the window and The second paragraph under both suburban and urban is that You can make neighborhood specific modifications to add further protection through the NPO and quite frankly I think the NPO is Really the best way to go in this case Now I also agree with Commissioner out Tert I'm not sure that I See the urgency of this matter either I Don't really want to Vote tonight because if you really want me to vote tonight, I would also probably vote no I would rather defer this now I know that a lot of you don't want to think about having it deferred But it is part of the process The last time as a private citizen, I was involved in A Development the development process. I think all told I made seven trips down the city hall before we finally got the matter resolved So if you're really keen on what you're doing You may have to accept the fact that you'll be here a few more times not necessarily before us all the time But also before council and then I Think there's a larger issue here as well as Mr. Bryant showed in one of his slides There are a number of neighborhoods like Forest Hills in the sense that They're really suburban in the way that primarily suburban in the way that's been developed, but they're in the urban tier What do we do about them? I mean it looks like when we started drawing circles on maps, you know these neighborhoods got included in those circles but Did we really mean to say that? Ultimately these neighborhoods are going to be urban densities And I would like to say I don't think we did but to be honest about it I don't think we gave the matter that much thought and I think what's lacking To support the flume in this instance is that we don't have policy in the plan And if we don't have policy in the plan, we may not have much in the UDO We just don't have the policies to tell us what to do So I would also encourage you to think about potential policy changes That might be made to help protect neighborhoods that are in this situation and I think that's about all I want to say right now, but When the appropriate time comes I will be If asked to make a motion to defer Commissioner Santa-Field Thank you vice-chair Hyman and thanks everybody for coming out and taking the time to speak on this issue Which you're very passionate about as you should be Though the pinecrest question has prompted the flume amendment request to me I see them as really two different issues and so I Would probably not be in favor of a deferral because I think this sort of the issue really is applicable to a lot of neighborhoods in Durham that aren't looking at a pinecrest potential development But to protect natural resources and for other reasons I Believe we need to encourage and fill in higher density development where we have the infrastructure and services to support that I also believe that it's important to preserve the unique character of our historic neighborhoods But in balance, I don't believe that a flume amendment is the best solution at this time I really believe that a neighborhood protection overlay or a local historic district is much better tool For doing those kinds of things. I realize that the forest Hills neighborhood is in a national registry historic district But that does not provide the kinds of protections that the neighbors or have expressed that they're concerned about most tonight I heard that the neighborhood protection overlay district is being explored But I wasn't clear as to whether The alternative approach that's mentioned in the staff report the local historic district designation is Being explored and so that was my question to staff As to whether that was also on the table as a potential strategy so Carl Rosenberg planning department We have received a neighborhood protection overlay application, but we have not received any request of petition for a local historic district Thank you And I think that's all I had to say and ask Thank you commissioner Durkin I think my thoughts have been expressed by my fellow commissioner so far I would agree that if asked I would defer the Decision and if asked not to defer I would vote no Thank you I'm going to start on my left Any other commissioners would like to speak I'll start with commissioner Miller then commissioner Gibbs anybody else, okay? And then commissioner in our kitchen So I'm going to go very briefly and I want to use the time I've got actually to talk to my fellow commission members But I want to talk to you folks first try very hard to respond to everybody that sends me a letter or an email I didn't get to you all this time And I apologize if you wrote to me in the last couple of days I tried to go back and forth and and read everything and and respond and I hope I responded to a lot of you But I don't think my position on this is a mystery. I am for you There is a problem here that's got to be fixed I am also very interested in seeing the appropriate development of the pinecrest property And so I like what the developer has shown and so far. I'm for The Clark proposal too. I Want to be able to solve both problems and I don't think voting tonight on the flum thing Is the way to go to get both of the things I want and so And I've said that to you in emails Over the last few days, so I want to now talk to my fellow commission members and say that I agree with mr. Brian That our comprehensive plan is a mess It's an ass and here's why it doesn't make sense And but I think it doesn't make sense on a lot of levels first of all If you read our zoning code and don't look at the maps you see that we have a tier system Increasing of decreasing density from downtown it makes sense and we then if you read our UDO we have Created zones zones with our I mean zones with With a you in them those are the urban tier zones and zones with an S in them those are the suburban tier zones and so that makes sense to we've got these concentric circles and In an abstract sense it all makes a lot of sense and you read the comprehensive plan And it's got provisions for the urban tier and a vision for the suburban tier And then you look at what we put on the map and we did it at the exact same time that we adopted the Comprehensive plan and the UDO. We did it all at one time. We created a system that has a certain somebody said elegant Sort of beauty to it and then we immediately ignored it and we didn't explain why we put neighborhoods that are developed as Suburbia in the urban tier and we zoned them suburban even though they are in the urban tier I Think there are good reasons to do that But we didn't say why and not by not saying why we set our policies against each other I've been calling it a policy dense dissonance that has to be resolved We cannot finish the business that you folks have begun without a resolution now whether it is a Tier amendment or a flume amendment. That's one way to go the staff. It obviously disturbs the staff They don't like the island. I have to say I don't like the island either But I understand that you didn't want to speak for anybody except for you forest Hills.  I get that I Want to fix this and there are lots of ways to do it a point out to you It's not we've been calling this a flume amendment. This is way more than that It's a tier change amendment to and why do we have to change the tier? Because you can't just change the map there is a table in the Comprehensive plan That sets the minimum density for the urban tier at six units an acre and allows it to go up from there That's six units an acre is Unsatisfactory to you when you discovered it was unsatisfactory to mr. Clark when he discovered it because it wasn't the pinecrest Crest development that he had in mind when he started Drawing plans on a map And he has done everything he can in order to game These rules in order to get the number of units down to something that you can accept you're very close I applaud you for the meetings. I believe you're going to get there. So I want to see you in the next 30 days 60 days have a long it takes however long you're willing to give it to reach that agreement and come up with something For that gets the pinecrest rezoning done these are two issues that should be separate, but aren't separate You can come and say we care about the future of forest hills Well, so does mr. Clark, but he cares about the future of his pinecrest project So it may be a separate issue to you, but it is a it is a fully engaged Pig bacon Sort of issue with mr. Clark, and so it can be you know, the the chicken is involved with the egg But the pig is committed to the bacon And so I would like to see you settle your deal with with mr. Clark and then bring this whole issue about The comprehensive plan not the flume that's too small a concept Comprehensive plan in your neighborhood and my neighborhood in Watts Hill and Dale and the neighborhood next door at Long Meadow and Moorhead Hill and Duke Park and Trinity Park all the neighborhoods that are in the urban tier that are zoned with our suburban zones We've got to have clear policies in our comprehensive plan That's that create the the quilt that mr. Clayton talked about because it's not a blank sheet It's not we're not starting from scratch We have a built environment that is dear to us and defines the Durham that we know we have to be able to protect it Our comprehensive plan falls way short of that. It is a mess I urge you all to look at the comprehensive plan for Winston Salem It talks about all the issues we say we care about in our comprehensive plan But then it goes on to talk about how we do not have to sacrifice one thing in order to obtain another We can have both we can thread needles if we have to and they have a whole chapter chapter on neighborhood preservation I've heard people talk tonight about how the real solution here is an NPO or a local historic district Well, those would be great and when you bring your NPO to us you'll have my full attention but it doesn't solve the problem of the comprehensive plan and Suburban neighborhoods in the urban tier. It doesn't fix it And if all we do is put an NPO on this and not fix the other thing then we have failed We have failed in our duty here. You have failed in your duty out there as citizens because you are now all deputies in the planning process no and And Durham plans best when its citizens engage in a knowing and meaningful way and that's what's happened here This is the big plus in this because we have now have people who have crossed the threshold in terms of commitment so let's Commission members join me in deferring this for 60 days let these neighbors make their peace with mr. Clark mr. Clark It isn't interested in six units an acre. He's actually on their side. They just have to resolve their case Let's all come in together And then deal with this issue straightforward whether we change the flume whether we change the tier boundaries or whether or not we write Pro neighborhood policies that explain what we meant when we said a neighborhood that we zoned at two units an acre Should be zoned for six units an acre. We haven't resolved that I Agree, I don't think that we meant that that neighbor that urban tier suburban neighborhoods should go away But we without explaining what we meant when we did that that's the implication that we have created And it worries me because that's not that means that every time somebody Wants to do a rezoning in your neighborhood They have to come in at a density that's going to be unacceptable to you The cat fight will never stop the fur will fly for years Why do that if we believe that forest Hills and Watts Hill and Dale and Moorhead Hill and all the other neighborhoods similarly situated are worth Preserving and worth keeping because they're on the ground and they're functioning and they contribute to the fact fabric of our community Well, then let's create policies and our comprehensive plans that says this is what we're going to do with these neighborhoods We can do that we're that smart if they did it in Winston Salem. We can do it in Durham So let's vote to give this 60 days and come back Get get the rezoning done and get this thing fixed get this big issue fixed and still talk about local historic districts And still talk about MPM Thank you commissioner Miller commissioner Gibbs and then commissioner kitchen Well, I'm certainly not gonna follow up with any recipes on how to cook a chicken and At any rate there have been some really good comments tonight and I Love forest Hills I Know the the the developers and the early designers there and I'm not bragging about my age, but I Am glad to be talking about it, but I I do go along with Putting this off for for 60 days There is this overarching concern And I think it does need to be addressed more broadly with the flum and comprehensive plan When they drew the concentric circles, that was you know, that's a quick way of looking at things I'm sure when it was drawn There were things that could not be settled at that time and And and and you were reminded earlier about you you may not want to come back and other To maybe three times But part of the process in In in making headway in making our flum More applicable Fairer easier to understand and work with Is gonna is part of the process and it's going to take some time Well Every I agree with Just about every comment that was made My colleagues up on the the dies here I may have disagreed with the thing or two in the same thing with you folks But we do have even though it's not an agendized Subject We can't overlook the elephant in the room, which is pinecrest and it cannot be settled until This is If it were to be approved which I Would just have to wait and see how the votes go Then that eliminates pinecrest in its present Proposal and it is a great plan if y'all haven't seen it. I do hope it it becomes public somehow because and But at any rate I would I would I Do think that a 60-day deferral Would really help communication. It would certainly help me to understand more about how this thing can be done And there is no hurry. Nobody is going to overrun forest hills You can't build anything on either of the parks. It's in a flood zone Nobody's gonna build a whole bunch of I Don't think there's anybody here that's gonna sell their property get together and sell their property so that some kind of gigantic Development can be done that means they're gonna have to fix the roads all the way down That's not gonna happen. And I'm gonna stop with all these details because it's I Just would like to have more time and I think we all need more time to negotiate to Come to some conclusions Because I I agree with Commissioner Miller There is a solution and and we're almost there But anyway, thank you. Thank you Commissioner Gibbs Commissioner kitchen Commissioner Williams Yes First and foremost, let me say thank you for coming out I read every single email both for and against and I am a lifer in Durham grew up off of Barbie Road Forest Hills has always been one of my favorite neighborhoods that and Hope Valley and I hear you I Hear you loud and clear. I hear what you're trying to protect Understand why I am I'm a fan of architecture, but it's not about Aesthetics, it's about in the fall when the leaves change being able to drive down University Drive and To walk outside of your house and see the leaves change and what that looks like and having that change I'm also a student of Durham. I Took the opportunity to learn about mr. Spaulding and his history in Durham and also Miss Seaman the departed and who she was and what she meant and to know that her neighbor is one of the Dukes and one of the founding members of Duke University and that history is not to be compromised on Any platform at any weight and I understand growth in Durham is happening. I get it But at what cost? Durham has not seen growth before like this That hasn't happened Unfortunately, many of us were not alive when it happened, but it did happen before and Then the downturn hit and then we were stuck with houses Then nobody lived in and now we're revamping them and now we're talking about gentrification My mind is made up on this issue whether we vote now or whether we vote in 60 days But understand Forest Hills. I hear you These these are my comments. I hear you. I do think that a compromise from coming down from Possibly 60 to 50 to 40 and now 35 to 38 That's huge for any developer to be willing to do that It takes a lot of consideration into terms of how you guys feel The respect that you have for your neighborhood and what you're unwilling to compromise on I think that that is a Substantial starting point and I think it it takes some consideration. I think that looking at it being willing to understand that Forest Hills will remain Forest Hills At least for what is being proposed right now and I understand the need to come in and to say Well, we don't want six to twelve homes on an acre. I don't I don't want six to twelve homes on an acre Where I live and I live right off of highway 55 So I couldn't imagine what that would be like, but at the same time I think that you have to be willing to bend not for the sake of The fact that Durham is growing but for the sake of a developer that's willing to put in the work and From the standpoint of someone who designs homes for a living that is impeccable You can't you won't find that anywhere else You won't find another developer that's gonna come in that's willing to take this much time to hear you and be willing to compromise You might But who knows I don't think that some people will be willing to bend And I think that if it comes down to a vote of whether or not it takes more time And you're willing to go to the mat and I think it should be considered. I think it's worth the wait But I definitely understand and I applaud you for your efforts because this is not easy. This is not easy by far This is a very time-consuming process and there's a lot of you all who are invested and who are here It's not like it's five or six people There's a lot That's here And I think that if you've come this far then I think you could go a little bit further And we can find the compromise and I think that we can fix it I think that if you come to us with more than if we have to consider an NPO If we have to consider tier changes, whatever it takes, I'm about Durham. I'm not about a neighborhood I'm not about a developer. I'm about Durham the Durham I grew up in the Durham that brought people here people didn't move to Durham because houses were $450,000 they moved to Durham because of what the characteristics are and I think that we have to preserve that and Preserving Trinity and preserving Forest Hills and the characteristics of what takes it and understanding who mr. Spaulding is understanding who The department seaman is is a part of what Durham is and I think that you guys are on the right track I just think that it's going to take a little bit more time It's going to take a little bit more effort and if you guys are willing to do that and to keep going and not just Depart what what you've done. I think that you you'll get there You've got some good people on your side and there's a lot of character in those emails So those are my statements Thank you commissioner Williams, let me double-check to make sure there are Other commissioners who would like to speak Commissioner Johnston. Thanks your woman. Just a follow-up to comments made by commissioner Miller And you're urging and encouraging the members of the commission to vote for a Continuance Are there what is it that? Are you assuming are you hoping or is there something that you perceive that will be seen differently in regards to this particular? Request in 30 or 60 days that could potentially Change the conversation somewhat or in in your acts What what will we be seeing different in regards to this as we consider the pinecrest that could be Something that could influence how we're thinking today whether for or against So, thank you for the question. What I see we can do with the time we may not we may fail But I don't think we will I see The pinecrest neighbors and the pinecrest developer Working out their vision and coming together on a vision for the pinecrest property That then will if they do that for that to be meaningful there will have to be an adjustment somehow to the current Tier boundary change and flume request change So that's one change that will have to occur in order to accommodate whatever agreement that's made It's also time to consider some of the other issues that came up with the flume change But the main thing it does is it turns the developer from somebody who has to argue against his neighbors In order to preserve his ability and his vision for the pinecrest property It takes him out as a an opponent to the flume request And then we can talk about the flume on its merits without having to worry or without having Participants not necessarily on the commission, but in the audience of what the flume requests implications are for a particular development project I would love to write. We've talked about this as being two separate issues. It's not I can assure you to mr. Clark They these issues are deeply intertwined If we can take his anxiety away so that he becomes a forest Hills neighbor and not a pinecrest developer Then I think we can we can narrow down and drill down on these comprehensive plan suburban tier neighborhood issues And talk about ways to fix it. It also I hope will give our staff an opportunity to begin a Conversation to talk about the shortcomings of the comprehensive plan in this area and to propose to us perhaps other ways to go If we get to a place where we protect Neighborhoods in the urban tier. I don't care how we do it whether it's a A change of lines on a map or whether it's new text in the comprehensive plan. I'm interested But right now, but I will say this that I'm not going to rest until we do make those changes I think it's bad policy to have no policy And I will reject any attempt to have a policy that says because we have a minimum density figure of six Traditional historic neighborhoods in the urban tier must in time go away Because they do not represent our vision for the future I see our historic traditional neighborhoods in the urban tier as part of our future follow-up Thank you I feel this is important because we may have the cart for the horse here is we are urging for a continuance But we've heard from the presenters of the Request tonight that they would not like that as a option going forward. So my question to Mr. Brian one is it's a Multi-part question one is what would be your response to that? Secondly, you were you noted that an NPO application has been submitted and what is Acts as a flam in this tonight is what's in the NPO? So how does that impact what you're a West being acts and let me take the second question first because I think y'all Need to understand the NPO process a little bit better The staff hates it and the staff has tried to fight us on the NPO all the way down the line And if you look at your staff report The NPO wasn't one of the options the staff suggested It was our efforts before the joint city county planning committee that caused the JCCPC to prioritize Mm-hmm our NPO Otherwise the staff would have buried it and we wouldn't have had an NPO for the next two three years and as it stands We probably won't get into the 2019-2020 budget for the NPO process anyway. So our NPO Process is probably two years out It's going to take that long Especially if we have to with due respect to the staff who I work with all the time and I like Very much, but the reality is is that they despise it and they are fighting us at every single step of the way So the NPO isn't going to happen anytime Reasonably soon to dissolve this problem in the meantime There are many sites That are right for redevelopment The utmost obvious one is the old Peterson house Which can be torn down and turned into many many many lots it's and so That this is this is a problem which exists throughout forest hills and if the policy of the city is to Demand a minimum of six units per acre. It is a serious problem And it is an imminent problem given the heat in the market right now. You're right if the market collapses tomorrow then Nobody will want to build anything so it won't be a problem So with regard to your NPO that that's the answer to that question with regard to the the request for deferral We have heard what you've said and your desire to have us have this discussion in a context where everything is still pending rather than something has moved on and And my instructions have have changed and we are not we do not oppose deferral for 60 days So if you all choose defer, we will we will accept that except we have no choice but to accept it But we would be we would support that if that's what y'all want to do We're anxious to try to deal with plant crest as well and try to get it to a place where everybody can learn to live with it And God knows we've spent a lot of time talking about it with folks and a lot of a lot of shouting has gone on But that's part of the the deal But I would like to pick up on what mr. Miller said it's it's extremely this this I Was maybe some some of you were here in 2005 along with me and I remember when they did this I was on one of the I was back here back in the 90s when we did the 2020 plan and I was on one of the subgroups that worked on the 2020 plan and You know in 2005 nobody paid any attention to the comprehensive plan because the comprehensive plan was a very theoretical document It wasn't hooked into the zoning ordinance in any meaningful way. Nobody had to make any consistency statements or anything like that And it was it was a very gross thing nobody Participated in any of them. We even knew that there were hearings going on nobody even knew there were meetings going on and you know, we had a very What I would call very elementary process that we went through the 2020 plan was all about Compact neighborhoods for to build that we built for to try to encourage development where I'm places where trains were gonna come But never came And the you know, and then this plan was all about trying to revitalize the urban core in this very crude way By drawing circles around it and saying that's the way it's gonna be It's it's not the way to plan a city like Durham. Durham is a quilt. It is a patchwork We need multiple urban cores. We need multiple suburban cores. We don't think it's you can't this is not Kansas Or we're just gonna start off in the middle of downtown and then we're gonna build it straight out from the edge And so it is it is essential that we address this we tried to address it by Hooking the existing hooking the the land use plan to the existing zoning of the tracks that were there It doesn't prevent anybody from coming in and rezoning it doesn't prevent anybody and you know this you see this all the time Doesn't prevent anybody from coming in and doing a comprehensive plan amendment To change it to a different tier, but this this almost rigid this rigid Almost religiosity about the plan that somehow we can't we can't change the we can't create an island. Why not? Durham is full of islands. They talk about the distance between Forest Hills and downtown That's true except there's a major river that runs through the middle of downtown Separating Forest Hills from downtown called 147 It's not like you just walk on over to downtown from Forest Hills and these these major Impediments are things that that need to be taken into account in terms of planning that needs to be planned on a Neighborhood by neighborhood area by area basis If if getting us together so that we can work things out pinecrest Hopefully will will will will bring us to a point where we can do make meaningful changes For Forest Hills in the future to help protect that neighborhood. We're willing to take a 60-day deferral Does I hope that answers your question, sir? Thank you vice chairwoman and with that Commissioner Johnson commissioner Brian, did you also have I just wanted well first of all, it's been a long time since I've run into somebody who worked on the 2020 plan I just wanted to make a comment about the MPO and I'm sure that staff is not gonna like hearing me say that but You guys need to keep the pressure on Start with a joint city county planning committee and keep the pressure on the last MPO that we Actually considered on this commission To me one of the shortcomings is that the application had been filed at one time with a lot of signatures on it But by the time they started working on it about half of the people were no longer part of that neighborhood so Keep the pressure on Thank you There are no other comments. I'd like to make just one brief comment I'd just like to thank all of you for your participation and for your very thoughtful participation in this process and your professional decorum around this very passionate issue It is my task at this time to call for a motion Madam chair if I may Move that we reopen the public hearing that you previously closed and that we continue it for For two cycles or until the commission's meeting in the second Tuesday of October second It has been moved improperly second. Are you ready for the question because I did see yeah Yes, we have a discussion on that or can I because I wanted to ask the applicant a question and then or did Have I lost my chance to do that? It's okay if I have I'll ask him. Well, if there's some unreadiness as far as your Yes, there is some Unreadiness then I'm going to Request that you if you are going to continue the item that you continue to a date certain Not just two cycles or 60 days and I did continue it to the commission's meeting in October on the second Tuesday That's a date sir tonight. I just wanted to make sure we got that on the record It's October 9th. I didn't hear that. So excuse me. I apologize Staff well, let me ask another question at this time since I have some unreadiness for the vote Do I need to have the motion withdrawn to start again? I do have some unreadiness on the part of one of our commissioners No, he can he can ask his question if if if mr. Miller No, okay About my unreadiness keep it short. Okay. I'll keep it very short. So the last thing that you said mr. Bryan is that You know you you want the deferral if it means that you want you can negotiate with the pinecrest developers It sounds to me and it sounds to me like from other discussions that I've had from with others is that it is about getting them to agree to certain number of units and then other things Do you envision the next two months that you were going to?  Well the pinecrest developers? Yeah, no, I actually We we What we what I've what we've heard is that you want us to come together and you want us to take 60 days to talk to the Pinecrest developers That's what I've heard the board say that's not well That's what other people the board have said now with regard to your question I think it's a the The answers yes, I mean there's no if if if what if to make this a more palatable and more effective Planning tool What we need to do is Address some of the areas around the edges or otherwise, you know increase You know the the density to four An acre whatever that you know to the medium density residential or whatever the case may be in certain areas We you have to understand when we started this process We did so With with the intent of not violating anybody's existing rights anybody's existing land use expectations So we didn't go in and say well down here by the park We think it ought to be denser and and see without you know and like try to engage in a long Discussion and then try to up increase people's density down there or to deal with other things So everything that we've done matches the existing zoning some of them some of what's built may not match the existing zoning But what we did was we tried to create status quo in order to create to to recognize the status quo in order to create a The a policy impetus in that would require developers to To come in and explain why they should go against the status quo rather than a policy of this that Suggests and in fact encourages redevelopment at force at 612 units for acre if you see what I'm saying, which is what we have now and to us which makes no sense so given Given that situation if if other people would like to come in and say we would prefer our neighborhood to be something different than What it's zoned as We wouldn't have a problem listening to that and would be willing to consider that. I believe I think that's a fair statement Okay, so we're wide open for that type of discussion. Thank you now. I'm ready. All right. Thank you We do have a motion by commissioner Miller and it was seconded by commissioner Brian that we Have a 60-day continuance with a specified date, which is October 9 October 9 We'll have a roll call vote, please Commissioner I'll Turk. Yes, commissioner Johnson. Yes Commissioner Brian. Yes Commissioner Satterfield. No Commissioner Durkin. Yes, mr. Hyman. Yes, mr. Miller. Yes Commissioner kinship. Yes Commissioner van yes Commissioner Gibbs Commissioner Williams. Yes Ocean carries 10 to 1 Thank you I'm going to ask that we take a two-minute recess to allow Individuals who were here for this issue to clear the room. Thank you so much Thank you, we're gonna return to order if you are Planning to stay, please get a seat if you are not planning to stay if you could take your conversations into the lobby that would be appreciated And I do want to thank vice chair Hyman for facilitating the last agenda item We are moving on and our next item is case Z1 7 triple zero three four This is the Carrington Woods proposal and We will start with the staff report And let me say actually before we start the staff report just to remind people I know some of you were in the hallway earlier because the room was full if you are Interested in signing up to speak on any of our remaining items this evening Please come to the table to my left and put your name down You can mark if you are for or against the specific proposal that is in front of us this evening. Thank you Mr. Wiggins Thank You chair possibly Jacob Wiggins with the planning department as you all may recall The commission heard this case on June 12th, 2018 So I'll be somewhat brief in my presentation as there's been no modifications to the request since that time So just as a reminder, this is a request in the city's jurisdiction. This is for an approximate eight and a half acre site The current zoning is residential suburban 20 and the applicant is requesting residential suburban 10 And the proposal does not accompany or is not a company with a development plan So any single family residential use is permissible in the RS 10 district would be allowed here The case area is highlighted in red the property is located at 833 Clayton Road Sumerial photos these are also in your staff reports the top left corner is in a view of the site itself And the three other photos are from the surrounding neighborhoods that connect to this property The zoning context map as I noted this property is on the RS 20 as you can see on the left-hand side And they are proposing the RS 10 district See on the right-hand side that would match the adjacent properties surrounding this site The current future land use map Recon notes that this site is designated as low-density residential the RS 10 district fits within that those parameters and The low-density residential category is the predominant use in this area Some RS 10 standards lot lot area minimum of 10,000 square feet obviously the Lot width of 75 feet Street yards 25 feet side yards 12 single 24 total and your rear yard is 25 feet in this district Comprehensive plan policies reviewed as part of this request You see there are two key policies and the future land use map the request was found to be consistent with these three items And overall staff determined that the request is consistent with the comprehensive plan I'm clickable policies and ordinances. I'll be happy to answer any questions the Commission may have at this time. Thank you Thank you very much this point we will open the public hearing and we have One individual signed up in favor for the proposal and three individuals signed up against we will start With the proponent. This is Ms. Penny Sadako Sadako, I'm sorry. I got this wrong last time as well. Hello. Yes, sir. There's a little misspelling there. It's actually saccadolo Great. Okay. My name is Penny saccadolo 9 2 2 0 Fairbanks Drive in Raleigh, North Carolina And yes, we did discuss this a couple of months ago at your meeting in June And since then we had a meeting with the neighbors at a location that they chose Which was at the library on highway 98 and we sent out letters to the same Addresses that the city sent out the original zoning request. There were 22 people in attendance at the meeting I think we had a healthy discussion. I can't say that I came away with any absolute concurrent Conclusion to that meeting it ranged from some people understood that the Reason we wanted to go for the rezoning was because when we when that when the client purchases property I traveled out there with them and we toured the surrounding neighborhoods we saw these street stubs into this property we saw the surrounding neighborhood and We thought it would be nice to match the existing neighborhood and to do that We needed to rezone it from RS 20 to RS 10 which gives us the same criteria that the existing neighbors are under We also Acknowledged that the three stubs to our property would give us sufficient traffic Access and so that's what we're proposing. I think this staff Will require us to make the connection to the three stubs on the east west and south of our property and so Although some people Understood in that discussion that matching the existing neighborhood is a reasonable request There were still some people there who are concerned about traffic and there were some people there that I dare say would like to see it Not be developed at all And so that's an honest opinion from from some of the neighbors. I will Respectfully request that you do approve this it is in keeping with all of the comprehensive plan It's in keeping with the surrounding neighborhood it Absolutely matches the current zoning that we're adjacent to and we would like to have an Affirmative vote from this council tonight I'll reserve any time I have left and see if there's any other comments from the people who were in attendance Thank you. Thank you and The three individuals who signed up to speak against Quincy Ratcliffe Ponce Mercer and Natalia Russell and if the three of you don't mind coming up You can come up to the microphone And if you can state your name and your address and then collectively the three of you just like the proponents You'll have 10 minutes collectively to share your thoughts. Thanks for joining us Good evening. My name is Quincy Ratcliffe. Thank you all for the opportunity to speak tonight I live on 32 19 with the M Park Road at the one of the corners where the main entrance of Carrington Woods is going to be Tonight we had three of the neighborhoods Here but due to the length of the last meeting some of the neighbors had to leave and It was Twin Lakes, no wood and metal crest My concern is not I'm not totally against it my concern is the length of traffic in the density of the homes that's going to be built in that area and Due to the traffic that we have for that section I don't think it has been totally observed There hasn't been All of our neighbors were not notified about the meeting that was has taken the meetings that have taken place So a couple of us of us within the neighborhoods have gone out and tried to notify neighbors about this development so We can come some of us can come on and speak because I was unable to attend all the other meetings But I did watch the initial meeting from that took place here Thank you. Thank you Good evening My name is Natalia Russell and I live at 3301 Woodland Park We've been living there for 15 plus years and I have severe concerns regarding the traffic The last meeting I did I was in attendance and we requested that DOT come out and assess the area before Development actually starts because there is a high school there And there is actually which we didn't discuss at the meeting at the library. There's already already an existing development going up, which is I Don't know the name of the new one, but it's across from Stone Hill, which is off of Freeman Road And there are two very sharp curves There's one that's right before you get to Woodland Park, which is The corner of Freeman and Woodland and then there's it is another that's right at the curve where metal crests which is another neighborhood that will be impacted by this development and The concern is we've already had we've already have had some accidents that have occurred with the existing neighbors that's over there and There's like I said, there's a new development going in and I don't think that that Traffic influx was taken into account along with this one. There's a lot of neighborhoods off of Clayton Road already We also requested if this development was to go into place If they would have access directly onto Clayton Road Without that additional traffic coming through Twin Lakes My neighbor that just spoke miss Radcliffe is on the corner of Woodland Park in Derry And I am across from her on Woodland Park So we would be severely impacted by the additional traffic flow Which they're going to have to come past our house because there's no other way for them to access Clayton Road So I guess I don't know if you know, this is going to take place regardless of what we say here tonight I definitely have concerns about Zoning for additional houses our Understanding was that she had Already gotten approved for 23. So we're not sure why the additional zoning is required We have concerns about them putting more than the 23 that she's approved for Again, everything is with traffic and safety We really don't think that has been assessed properly for the neighborhoods that are out there now The homes are very nice. It's not about the homes not being nice It's just about safety and traffic flow and thank you for the opportunity to speak. Thank you. Mr. Mercer Good evening. My name is Ponce Mercer. I'm at 3215 Woodland Park Road My concern is not so much building up the houses as it was recently spoke It's the amount of houses they're going to build I've been at my location for 25 years When I originally purchased it I was under the impression that no one could actually build behind me So I'm not sure what changed from when I purchased my home until now and where they're actually able to build behind me So that was something I'm not quite sure maybe she can address when she actually comes back up here And as well as with the traffic another issue that we actually have I would understand if she could actually have an entrance off of Clayton Versus having to come through Woodland Park because we have a lot of other neighborhoods the surroundings It actually cuts through Woodland Park. So there's much more traffic there now than it was say three years ago And I don't think we can actually accommodate additional traffic and I wonder how if there's any kids How will the school bus actually be able to come in and actually pick up the kids to actually get out of the neighborhood? Because I don't think buses can actually turn in the area what she's building and maybe she can address that Great. Thank you very much You do have remaining time if you'd like to make additional statements or to answer any of the questions from the citizens Yes, and and we we discussed this in the meeting and I'll discuss it again I did do a little bit more research when I got back after having the discussion with y'all The the frontage of our property is about 500 feet the distance between two existing roads which is the Matter crest and the road that comes out of Twin Lakes is about 760 feet distance between the two current intersections and the dilemma of putting any additional road in there would not be approved DOT requires a minimum of 600 feet between any additional Intersections and there's not enough distance there the city of Durham Transportation you may have someone here from transportation that could confirm it But they say that they don't require an additional connection if the current pattern allows connections within a quarter mile, which is 1,320 feet so we definitely meet all those criteria is not as an engineer It's not a good place for me to recommend adding an additional connection out to Clayton Road It would be too close together what it does do is the Metacrest entrance is a dead-end Scenario with a stub into this property It will allow those people to get have a secondary access in case that of an emergency or an accident at that intersection They now have a way out which right now they don't All of our streets will be built to city standards school buses will be able to travel on them It will provide interconnectivity. It will provide good traffic patterns including for emergency School buses and just the people that live there. We're talking a very small amount of people someone asked about Traffic count on one of the main roads if you go to exhibit six or attachment six It shows here that the current road Clayton Road has a capacity of eleven thousand four hundred Even the current traffic on there is seventy six hundred and Our impact will be a hundred and sixty four So we're talking a very small amount of traffic in the realm of what we're discussing So again, I asked for your approval. Thank you very much Is there anyone else who would like to speak on this item? Yes, sir, please come on up And if you can come up to the microphone and let us know your name and your address and I believe There are still a few minutes left for those speaking against my name is Kenny Wiggins. I'm at 14 And I think the last time we were here I think we talked about her having a development plan and kind of some things we were told to maybe ask her for and We went to the library meeting She didn't say she said she couldn't have the development plan at all and that she wouldn't have it and We was like what you're gonna do with the property and She couldn't tell us and so I'm just wondering like my concern is how many houses are gonna go in there and What she's planning on doing with the property, so it's pretty much Because she doesn't have a plan and she's not telling us anything about it And everything we asked her for she said she couldn't get but she won't go and have so we don't know We asked for the development plan. She said I'm not gonna have it and we asked her are you gonna do? 32 houses because we were here the last time I thought they were already approved for 23 houses And we say it looked like you're gonna try to put more houses in and that and she was like no I couldn't put 32 in it in there if I wanted to but she didn't have a development plan They will lock her in to a number of houses to do so we didn't know so we left with I Thought when we left here, she was already approved for 23 So with the zoning that they had so now she wants another zoning But we don't we can't figure out why she wants the new zoning if she's already approved for 23 houses With the zoning that it currently has so that's the kind of the questions that we had like What is what is she planning on doing? How many houses are going in there and what's the plan? We really don't know Okay, thank you. Mr. Wiggins if you don't mind actually could you come up here? And we'll just have you sign in just put your name and address and we'll have you on the record Anyone else who'd like to speak on this item for the public hearing? seeing none, we will move to close the public hearing and Look to the commissioners any questions or comments from the commissioners. We'll start on my left I went right. I know they went right last time. So I want to go left this time anyone on my left commissioner miller So I have a question for you, uh, mr. Coddlow Just going to do the land planning for this Thank you pardon If you got a land planner for this I would do that land planning. Okay, and have you figured out If if you put as many units as you could under r10 in there Knowing that with three stubs to connect to That's a lot of roadway. That's more roadway than you would need Perhaps if the stubs weren't there As a practical matter, what is the maximum number of r10 lots you can get in there? Uh, the maxi