Hello, everyone. My name is Latfi. It's like a sneeze Latfi and I'm father of Yike. It's we're a partner of a socap a media platform So we're making accessible to everyone the possibility to create community video campaigns and when socap asked me to join the team on Hosting the conversation around smart contract. Just make sure the right place smart contracts blockchain technology as a blended finance tool That's okay. That's gonna be not geek. It's gonna be really really close to the reality Into the to the field. So we have three great Speakers and they know they're really on the field on it aren't investing on it So we're gonna have a great conversation. So without further ado I'm gonna ask you to introduce yourself in just two or three words You know sentences and at the same time we're gonna go up into the question What is smart contract for us in a simple way? So if you can introduce each other briefly Hi everyone. Good afternoon. Hopefully we have some coffee in us after the afternoon Slump after lunch. My name is Antoinette Marie. I'm the director of heifer labs We're a digital technology support unit within an INGO called heifer international Working with smallholder farmers in Asia, Africa, America's and the US My team's role is to work hand-in-hand with our country and our regional leaders Looking at their programming and determining how digital solutions can help them accelerate and achieve their impact Through intentional and locally led programmatic integration. It's really a pleasure to be here Hello, I'm Gabriella Chang co-founder of epihub. I I'm an industrial designer I work for the Secretary of Economic Development in Chiapas in Mexico and I was also an organic coffee producer In epihub, what we do is to enable that anyone in the world can become an impact investor and The funding the crowd landing platform we developed five years ago Enables that smallholder farmers get access to affordable financing to improve the living standard This is connecting global south with global north in a win-win arbitrage and we also well We'll talk about that later. Thank you very much. I'm very happy to be here I'm Matthew Stotz with Suruli inventors Suruli inventors is a very early-stage technology investment fund Our focus is putting nature and social impact into the global economy And we do that by a software and technology investments our background is in in partially in blockchain and in other globally distributed Internet-powered software systems, so you might know that as anything you've ever subscribed to and and receive over the Internet's and our We're actually investors in FI cup and we're glad to be partnered with with heifer as well. And so Looking forward to getting into the into the conversation today Anybody knows about smart contracts are you smart contracts face your hand Good, so that's good that we have a little bit and we don't so we're gonna go clarification of vocabulary So like what is smart contract? For you in a simple way that people that are not know the system How can I use this and look good to my wife or people around me? What is smart contract? I? Would say first what's blockchain because your smart contracts run on blockchain? Okay, it's a very simple line Blockchain is a warranty that data has not be tampered with in a blockchain Sorry and a smart contract. It's some Executable agreement. It's a program that executes the agreement between the parties and one this is this program is locked into the blockchain It becomes also immutable and cannot be tampered with I Don't know if that was too geeky. I hope wasn't some more normal Good everybody can repeat it Good so So when we say in the title like how can it be blended in finance? How do you say that? What what does it mean? How can it be blended in finance? Think we can talk a little bit about our partnership here and then I'll help to clarify Heifer international heifer impact capital, which is our impact investing unit heifer labs and Ethic hub have partnered in Mexico in order to deploy a $450,000 revolving facility through Ethic hub in support of Agriculture smallholder farmers in coffee And so I want to pass it over to Gabriella a little bit to talk about that structure but I will say that in order to support Innovations such as a blended finance tool via smart contract. There is the requirement of The facility to be supported and for there to be boots on the ground that can help ensure That the recipient of the funds is ready They have intake and they have the capacity to run their business That's fundamental before we get into blockchain before we get into smart contracts that the business is viable And that they're supported through the innovation and through the processes of running their own business So again blended finance what is most of you are familiar for those who are not blended finance is Concessional capital that is willing to absorb first losses So other investors are willing to impact invest because they know if there is a default or a loss Do we all it will be absorbed by the other side in our case? Did you know that one quarter of the world population is excluded from the traditional financial system? 70% of our farmers this means one fifth of the world population is Producing one third of our food and yet they remain poor because they don't have access to the system So at Ethic hub what we build is two platforms that complement each other One is a lending platform a crowd lending platform where everywhere? Everybody can lend working capital and the other one. It's a Blended finance. It's a crowd collateral where anyone can contribute to a board collateral On behalf of the farmers because they don't have as a simple example 80% of the coffee in the world and coffee is one of the biggest commodities traded 80% is in the hands of people with only two hectares of land That's not a valid collateral because no one would grab those two hectares in the middle of nowhere. It has no valid commercial value So because they lack collateral to access the system That's one of the main reasons also living very far away also not having connectivity not having data but when third parties stake Collateral on behalf of them this blended finance attracts more impact investing because you don't know farmers are very good payers Do you don't know maybe but the global default for long-term farmers? It's less than 3% but people mix this up with the default for micro finance Which is thirty seven thirty six percent for consumption So it's it's a different thing because you don't know they are good payers We have to provide you the comfort that if they don't pay you we have something a liquid collateral To come in and cover your your investment We're very proud to say that after almost five years The platform has landed more than four million dollars with less than one percent default and even this is mostly default Thank you has been covered by the blended finance by the crowd collateral We develop and we're very proud to start scaling the solution because as Antoinette was saying if it doesn't work if it's not Doable doesn't make sense. We've been doing it for five years and now after our partnership with Hafer We are confident we are going to start scaling and reaching more farmers with the solution that we implemented And also with the support of Sir William Ventress who has supported us to keep growing and taking the solution abroad We are now in six countries and this is just the starting Yeah, I think what's super exciting about what you were describing is just this inflection point of growth. So much of what Antoinette Marie was talking about is having this foundational capacity in the communities to actually Take this step. It's it to move to it as a digital transformation. It's doing something different than you had before Most of the loan environment for small-hope farmers is a cash, you know, high absurdly high rates if they can get it and they need that that money to actually bring crops to harvest improve their yields process Coffee that they have or if it's cassava or or cocoa or other Other crops so bringing this bringing this technology and just lowers all of the costs of accessing what should just be I need to bring on, you know, maybe additional equipment and at higher additional labor from my community to work with me And so when we look at the technology, we're just looking at an accelerant something that lowers the cost It can be distributed broadly and used by by many But it's this hard work that has been done by the ethical team over the years and with the support of heifer There's actually now Positioning ethic hub to actually to expand in this way. So you have to do that work first on the ground And now that you can identify more and more opportunities. We're really excited to see this software Smart contracts blockchain all of this stuff. We can get into the technical parts of it but it's really just the types of tools many of us use every day to manage our Lives and and our finances in the hands of folks at scale. So really excited about that Good question like when you were speaking and also with the farmers There's a lot of like digital literacy that we need to bring in and also like this is so abstract For some people now we go with the farmers and how do you brought them on board and make sure that? they They really understood and it's not like a scam something like that. There's a lot of work behind it that was done. So How this happened? on getting on this I Think it's worth mentioning that we are working with organized producers These are cooperatives that have a level of literacy. They have a level of digitization that already exists Of course, there's training that comes alongside the implementation Not only technical training in order to support their operations, but things like digital literacy training training around smart Hot wallets and getting onboarded into the ethical platform And there's a bit of a conversation as well about on and off ramps so how do we go from a cryptocurrency or a digital currency into Pesso so that can be readily used in country and The reality is that it's already being used in country. There is already cryptocurrency exchanges Mobile penetration data penetration. That's an enabling factor To the adoption of technologies such as this one such as the platform with epic hub and the key is ensuring that the access to the on and the off ramps is as simple and as easy as possible and that there is when we're Implementing with a partner like epic hub. There is support with people on the ground who can facilitate that transition The first time is always the most difficult, but oftentimes we're finding that the producers that we work with they already have wallets They're already working through exchanges. They're already they already have tested out cryptocurrency They're curious about it and that really helps, but the continued support on the ground is a big enabling factor I would look to add to that that we have proved that farmers can benefit from the technology even if they don't interact with it because the more of all the Cooperatives they have this literacy. They have a Connectivity, but most of the farmers we work with they don't have data because they don't have connectivity So the technology enables to create the proper incentive loops for everybody Every stakeholder do what is best for them because it is what is best for the system and regarding technology and how we explain it For them, we don't it's like I like I like to say this example about what's up Any of you know how what's up works? I don't mean how to use it. We all know how to use it But any of you know how it works We don't we only need to know how it is used It's the same with the smart contracts and the wallets you only give them the account and in this case I would like to clarify it's a representative of the cooperative the ones who manages the funds in the future We expect the farmers to receive the wallet the funds themselves But in this moment, it's all carried by one guy one woman that is the legal representative of the cooperative and they register The bank account of the cooperative With the account in the exchange in the case of Mexico is beat. So it's a well-known exchange So they receive the funds from the smart contract and the smart contract I would like to say that example. It's kind of a scroll You don't need a third party to receive the funds because they are in this scroll and it's only Retribbable by the cooperative account because this is registered in the smart contract the money It's only for that cooperative. You cannot change the the design so It's it's true the existing organizational systems that we are already reaching reaching the farmers and Yeah, as Antoniette said We we count on people that is Accompanying them online in the present if it's necessary and the first time is difficult But when you have so much difficult in your life opening a wallet and opening An account in an exchange is nothing compared to their day-to-day difficulties. I Think it's worth mentioning Just the context here about how I mean heifer came with almost half a billion dollars This is a big commitment for I'm sorry half a million dollars. This is a really big commitment. Sorry Whoa take a couple zeros out of there. I'm very aspirational. Maybe next year very aspirational So you have to look at the context of what's been accomplished here from an impact investing platform So this is where I get very excited about what f the cup is built in Just over five years four million dollars In loans to farmers with an incredibly high repayment In fact an almost impossibly high repayment rate and Bank of America is not seeing the repayment rates like this at 1% Default which is incredible And that it took a crowd of impact investors Any of folks can go on the internet and find ethic hub and participate in this that groundswell of support Actually brought the big funder to the table And I think that is as an impact in as an impact investing model is super interesting to look at part of that Was the technology the fact that you can actually put these Pieces of software out into the world. They are immutable. They do not change They they function exactly as they're described and they do the job They're supposed to do and they have built-in trust and so as they get used more and more all the sudden My hundred dollar donation or loan if you will Gets backed by a large organization like heifer and we hope to see more of this as the platform takes off I love these slogans within the stock up at the speed of trust So we're doing impact investing at the speed of trust and the first Trunch was very difficult because we have to earn the the trust of the farmers by providing them the money We said at the rates we said and connecting all pieces and for us. It's a huge A Huge thing that we count now on such a huge NGO as such a big institution as heifer international Because this will open the doors to other entities imagine what it is to work in the intersection of Impact and web tree and blockchain. This is like talking of carnivores and vegans It's quite complicated because the crypto brass don't want to know anything that is not algorithmic that is Related to real world and I think farmers are poor so they are not an opportunity and when we talk with most of the impact investors that are very traditional of Course web tree is not within their investment thesis Of course not because they think it's speculative and all the things that we see in the press because it's a very early stage But the real value is this Imagine some years ago if someone told you that you meet not to be in the internet Nowadays you don't exist if no one can look for you into Google Maps. It's the same thing. It's going to happen with blockchain It's very important to understand the huge consequences of this technology Used for real world problems to solve them in a sustainable and regenerative way Let me just add something to close that off. You might be wondering well How did we generate that trust between Heffern International and Ethic Hub? We didn't Focus on the blockchain. We didn't focus on the smart contracts. We didn't focus on the crypto currencies We really pitched the impact and the potential for disruption Reaching last mile financing at an affordable rate for farmers and that's what drove the decisioning Everything else had to make sense and we did our due diligence, but that was the core Did the model make sense for the impact was it verifiable and it was So it's interesting because what I got from here is that you worked with the communities We have the leaders on the ground that can work with the farmers so they can so you you build over there You don't talk about how the bike is built, but let's ride the bike So that's that's the second element you said and also like how the technologies re strong and and And a great tool for those kind of impact that we're having so those are the three and after that you were able to traction of investments from small investors showing that there's a case and after that and We get a lack of juice coming out for the big organization coming in for the five billion that's near It's gonna come to question. We got here. That's really interesting. It's and it came to my mind too is What's the interest rate like what are the terms that you're offering for the small farmers when you say like it's really affordable So what are What are those three? Well, I would like to point out that the Inter-American Bank for Development was our first institutional investors Investors and they said no one had reached at commercial rates Below 50% and we were lending in those years at 20% now We are at 16% and this 16% is like 70 times less than what they used to pay the this profile of farmers were Taking money from shark loans are 1890 and even over hundred percent interest So this 16% is divided eight percent for the impact investors the lenders 4% to fit the system within the the blockchain I won't talk that technically and the other 4% are fees So we said we are regenerative finance because we generate more value than the one we extract The farmer earns more wins more the lender also, but because we are unscalable Technology we can reach millions of farmers and these small fee It's enough to make it sustainable Okay Okay What were the someone's gonna start building a project like this and want to integrate it What are like the pitfalls that you face that you want them to face like if they do it like what did you face is? Hey, watch for this. These are the flag red flags that if I knew before I will not First of all fall in love with the problem not with the solution Figure it out. What are you wanted to solve? What's that the market feed of what you're doing before going into building into the blockchain because it's expensive It's a small because it's still in early stage. So for us that would be the first learning We start building before validating fortunately what we built was usable since the beginning But it takes time. So I would invite you like there are a lot of blockchain Educational branches now doing not but part of our job part of our aim is also to spread word about the technology We've been working for five years on it So if we can help you please reach out and and we can discuss the models and see how can we help you to? To adopt this technology for your purposes from a programmatic perspective Design with your partners as early as possible and really embrace co-creation Not just with your partners your technical partners Perhaps there's government partners. Perhaps there's private sector partners That's building out the business ecosystem that's required for the loan repayment to be successful But also with the end users bring them into your process. We work at heifer labs within heifer international We work with a lot of different kinds of technology verticals not just blockchain And the number one lesson that we've learned is that you have to include the end user as part of your design process You create an environment where they can feel that they are part of the solution And the adoption curve is much easier to climb And I like to say often that the problem really isn't the technology building out the tech We have the resources the knowledge and the capabilities to do that But behavioral adoption of the new solution is the real heart of the challenge And if you don't have that product market fit and you don't have a plan for behavioral adoption The technology can be great But it won't be used and it won't deliver the impact that you're looking for True to Gabriella's point about you know falling in love with the problem I think when we invest directly in these projects We meet a lot of technologists to kind of see everything they could possibly do with technology Look at all these fantastic features and things we could build And so we're what we're really focused on in finding those those key entrepreneurs who understand That the high leverage but limited application of technology and that the rest of the problem solving is about The business model of the community and the customer that you're serving to your to your point entrepreneur And so like it's not that we look for technology light or or small amounts in particular But that there's a specific discipline for using Technology where it's high high leverage. So if you look at What I think up is built the ability to repeatedly Transact in a an alone format that is consistent and proven Time and again, there's no additional cost to that contract. It's been created. It exists It's essentially bulletproof at this point. It's been hammered on so many times that will extend For a very very long time. We hope to these extra zeros. I keep talking about And so, you know, when we think about like how to get that to that start, it's really about Getting right at the point of the thinnest possible Amount of technology that gives you the highest leverage and can be repeated One questions are interesting is like what is the the scale needed to adopt that technology and In other markets and the example was asked for Haiti. So like Haiti Haiti Haiti Exactly. So what is the scale that you said? Okay, this is the enough scale to see. Yeah, I'm disrupting and I'm I have good traction. What is the The amount of skill that I said if you reach that point. Yes, it's good or if not you have to drop it Is there any I think I come at this a little bit of a different approach Um The technology needs to be scalable Fortunately, software models usually are once they're built and there's a good product market fit We look at scale more from a maturity perspective So when is the right time to bring in tech in development context because The fundamentals need to be there. Um, our farmers need to be organized. They need to be operational They need to be on their way to profitability And then at that point you start to think about how do we increase the efficiencies of their operations And provide them with what they need to be successful like access to affordable capital Sometimes it's really basic like they need electricity. They need a place to work Sometimes it's a little bit more advanced. They have paper based accounting and they need an ERP system That can help them digitize their operations and connect into a supply chain traceability platform That would earn them a premium because they have provable origin That they can offer as an incentive to their buyers So I think there's levels to it and its Scalability is hand in hand with maturity and readiness And the tricky part is figuring out. What's that inflection point to go in and deliver a digital solution That can then do what software does, which is hopefully virally scale You're good second one, like uh, I'm I prefer to use your question. So How are you currently or what do you see emerging for web three to encourage Regenerative practice with farmers What's emerging? Well, I think we're working on a site people is uh familiar with blockchain used for traceability, right? For traceability of items Imagine that blockchain with a blended finance. We're talking about traceability of funds If we can deliver enough funding for the farmers to keep their practices that the regenerative practices We will protect the way they produce food And this is very this is key because agriculture is key for climate change And if farmers cannot make a living out of their agroforestry farming They will cut down the trees Plant another crop like this is not suitable for the mountains like corn for example So they can eat One two years and they the heavy rains wash all the land down And it's the desert is lost and they migrate to the united states In the case of latin america, let's reflect why such big countries as as mexico Our main source of income is remittances When there's so much nature around that has to be taken care of Please think with me that the greenest areas of the planet is where the unbank lived Live so it's very important to to give a A way of living in order to them to remain the stewards of the land and we're talking about financial exclusion But they are also excluded from the carbon markets. They're also excluded from the certification markets The whole global system is not designed for the small scale And it's very important to to see that so I invite you for the next time you designed a system Keep in mind excluded to not keep Is repeating this this problem And reforestation or sorry regeneration is important because I think sustainability It's about keeping things as they are But we need to heal we need to cover the holes that are done So we need to regenerate to to do more than what is done until now To make this sustainable and also to to think to keep thinking about this all the whole planet is connected I I use the terms that I heard because it's easier to explain about global north and global south But I don't like it. It's not a north and a south. We are all together into this So for those who has the privilege of eating three times a day Please think the enormous power your money has when you decide what to eat and to whom to buy it And that makes a huge difference into the lives of millions of people and into the planet, of course Maybe I can get a little geeky. I love what you were just saying Gabriella. Um, um, when we're thinking about Folks who have a natural connection to the land You had mentioned that 80 percent of Cocoa farmers, for example, this is coming from two hectares or less of land And so you just do the quick math. That's tens of thousands of livelihoods of families of farmers who are working there and so to take that to a technology conversation Blockchain is a grassroots technology. It is distributed over the internet. It is Open source it is contributed to by a large community of many of the folks in this ecosystem in the Silicon Valley and around the world But it's fundamentally and a grassroots technology. It is for everyone Can can can be on on the blockchain and access Whatever smart contract you bring so if it's one that Allows you to get a loan To do, you know, better work or invest more in your farm That's accessible to everyone now. There is also that hurdle of adoption. We've been talking about but it's it's fundamentally A bar to be cleared and once that bar is cleared you have a grassroots platform And I think that's from a technology perspective Really important to understand so much of what we see in development so much of what we see an impact Is very large-scale top-down big development dollars coming out of governments coming out of large multinationals or NGOs and In some applications as we're seeing with at the club The blockchain technology actually provides an equalizing factor where cooperatives and small-hold farmers can do for themselves with Tools that have already been written and put out on the internet for them to access So once we get them up over that hurdle, I feel very encouraged by the potential for the grassroots to grow I'd like to add something to this because they were talking about philanthropy at the beginning And there's a lot of prejudice Thinking that helping others should be philanthropic or artistic. It's not this technology is proving It is possible to create share value models because they are more efficient because when you can Present from a third party as intermediary when you can desintermediate and replicate and scale It's business for everyone. It's a huge problem But it's also a huge opportunity and if we focus it as an investment opportunity and not as a donation because it is not No, it's okay. I'll meet you. It is it is it is a good business to invest into into the common good I want to add to that and and I think this was part as I was planning for this talk It was part of my closing remarks that Even being a representative of the NGO the philanthropic partner We are very bullish on viable business solutions blended finance and private partnerships because for us to reach sustainable impact The intervention needs to work when the grant dollars are no longer there. So once we're gone It's the local businesses or the businesses that have been localized that remain If you're relying on philanthropy to solve the problem You're not going to get a sustainable solution and there are always going to be asymmetries working with rural producers They're these are the difficult some of the world's most difficult challenges But with this technology There's a preconception that alternative finance is a disruptor. It's going to repay replace traditional finance And I see it as a parallel. It's opening a different avenue A parallel avenue by which those who are not served by traditional finance can be served and it's great We can have both have traditional finance serve that it does And alternative finance opening new avenues for those who are excluded from formal financial systems This suit Every time speaker, I'm sorry. I have to get Now it's okay. Good Okay, obviously like this because the microphone's on turn turn Two question here and one is they're interesting because like we know we're preaching for people that believe in it So one of the questions, okay Why there's so much resistance or why there's so much blockage. So what are the risks around it because not be that perfect so Resistance, I would answer a human nature We distrust what we don't understand This is a very early stage of the of the web treat of the blockchain technology Remember when we start using internet for payments Most of us had a different card to use it in the internet because we were worried or data was going to be stolen And all that stuff that we now take for granted So I think the challenge is adoption and we need more use cases to explain how the technology can be used for for possible things and I I think that's that's the main challenge get to know it get Embrace the unknown learn about it. Don't distrust. Don't say no because you don't know it Give it a try give it a chance to understand what it's good for and not just to hear what the bad press is saying because It it happened without the other technologies. It's always happens the same curve of adoption. I think yeah I'm just add a follow-up question. I do you want to add something in bilba? I'm going to shoot a follow-up question on this. It's really like okay So ready to this are we're going to see a crash like 2008 a bubble like that happen on this like are we going to see That's a follow-up question. I know They just be straightforward. I mean this is You know, it's kind of like saying Blockchain is maybe equivalent to like a category like music You can find a lot of terrible music in the world. So you can find a lot of terrible blockchain projects as well And so when you have a proven platform, I think this is why You know when you look at a project like ethic hub with a with a five-year track record with You can go on if you're technical You can actually look up their smart contract on a blockchain explorer and see the transactions You can also go to their website and see the real lives of people that have been that have been touched and improved by the loans that you make and And I would say, you know take the risk that you can take it is is an investment product to some extent So you've heard that four million dollars have been loaned and returned. You've heard that the The the rate there Of repayment is 99 And that is then they have a blended model so that that actually doesn't impact any investor Take your risk capital and put it to work If you buy a cd for 4.25% return on a annual basis right now You can actually find a different interest rate by helping Farmers with a loan on this platform So I think the answer is no it's a very this is a very specific and proven project and we need that We need more specific and proven projects We'll start to see more folks like ethicab and heifer working with with people and we'll see that There's probably an extension of what you've built that others and when it comes to maybe karmine crediting or Or other things that we'll see in the future where You'll become the center of trust and accelerate things That's one of the amazing things about the technology. It's composability It's like blocks that can be combined. We don't need to start from scratch The technology is evolving very fast. So very soon most of the Implementations we need we can build them because it's our founding team, which is technicians technicals, but it can be Adopted for for many and apported by many We just have few minutes left. So like I'm gonna I just have like a moving to the closing like the first question I have is What is your biggest fear related to your field? And what's happening if you have one biggest fear? What it is? Is it a fear or is it an opportunity? I'd say it's an opportunity I think that the the gap or the divide between the philanthropic space and the impact investing or social enterprise space Is getting smaller and it that trend needs to continue We really need to work hand in hand to understand the development challenges and the maturity that's required for investors to come in With a healthy risk appetite and work hand in hand to create viable and sustainable solutions It's difficult because the challenges that we're working to solve are difficult and they require Patient and flexible capital and they require time and thoughtful data collection in order to not prove out That it's working that's important too But also to influence and help the programming pivot together with the private entities So we have to work together to make our programs better and we have to be really humble About what's working and what's not working discard what's not working and innovate again to find what can work for the long term I'm a optimist through and through uh, and so I think um Maybe maybe just um impatience and anxiety rather than fear. So it's my emotional state is um come on already folks I mean like we've proven it right. It's working So I it's really about just I want to just see more and more adoption more I would love for half of the folks in this audience today to get on to ethic hub and try And explore and and put something down that can be massively impactful in the next five out five to ten minutes It can it can literally happen that quickly Um, and if you don't or if you need help doing that. I'd love to chat with you about it. So let's move fast Also, I'm quite optimistic. But if there's a fear could be that people sorry That I'm optimistic also and if I have a fear regarding the technology would be that People here doesn't act fast enough and instead of having the amazing tool it is to catalyze Uh development for the for the SDGs Yeah, we end up with a world street on asteroids. I mean the technology being used to do the same business as usual Faster cheaper, but the same instead of creating whole new models imagine E marketing or how what's before When they said you need to use catalogs to do stuff. No instead of using the technology It's going to be the same. This is amazing new model. This is just a starting and I invite you to embrace this technology and adopt it And of course join epic hub to learn how to use it for purposeful things and not to do the same as usual And quickly your biggest hope I'll just I'll just say that We meet and connect with more Incredible folks like heifer and and at the club. I think Just getting the word out there that this is there's potential here that we've proven a model that works I hope To use that word that more entrepreneurs more builders And more NGOs are inspired to to come down this path Yeah, my biggest hope they said web 2 internet. It's about competitors While web 3 it's about collaborators My greatest hope is to create synergies between the word changers the game changers That want to do something positive and do it now not to wait to that future It is in our little hands to do huge things and we can do it all together I hope to find um more epic hubs More builders who are looking at very viable use cases And they're talking about their impact and they're using the technologies available to them A couple years ago it was blockchain and smart contracts now. It's all about AI Let's use all the tools that we have at our disposal to work on solutions that can create an impact Just to close Last one like there's so many good information that was shared What is the one liner that you want them to keep in mind like was the One The next morning Top title in the newspaper the headline what will be for people to live with. Okay. I need to live with this one One take away. They need to go with I'm just going to summarize what I said before take a risk at making an impact perfect Be brave We knew we need new ways to solve old problems Take a risk be brave and keep innovating


So today's webinar again, applications to the CLSA and considerations for access and use of indigenous identified data will be presented by Dr. Jennifer Walker. Dr. Walker is a member of Six Nations and an associate professor in the Department of Health Research Methods Evidence and Impact at McMaster University. She has a PhD in community sciences with a specialization in epidemiology from the University of Calgary. She's also a senior scientist with ICES and currently holds a candidate research chair in indigenous health data and aging. And now I will pass it on to you. Thank you so much. It's really nice to see all these familiar and new names and to be with you today to share some, basically to share some of the journey that I think essentially the CLSA has been on since its inception. But in the sort of recent years of really kind of digging deep and thinking about the indigenous data that's within the CLSA and how to basically respectfully and ethically handle that data and provide access and use of indigenous identified data. So I've been really privileged to be able to have these conversations with the CLSA and to sort of come closer into being involved with the CLSA in recent years. So I just want to start a little bit by just, you know, before we jump into thinking about what is indigenous data governance, what are we talking about here? I just wanted to sort of remind people about the indigenous data that is in the CLSA. So most, I assume there's so many people on this call who are very familiar with how the CLSA, you know, probably all written about how the CLSA recruitment happened and sampling, what the structure of it, so I won't go through all of that. But just to say that at baseline, there are 1,879 individuals who participated in the CLSA that would be categorized as having indigenous identity, and I'll tell you a little bit about how that would happen. And so that is 1128 in the comprehensive cohort and 751 in the tracking cohort. So those are the kind of, that's what's currently within the CLSA. And so we're going to have a broad conversation about the CLSA and being responsive to reconciliation and decolonizing indigenous, decolonizing kind of cohort data around indigenous populations in general. But particularly when we're talking about the access questions and what's new in terms of the access to indigenous identified data in the CLSA, it's really this group that we're talking about. So these are the ways that someone could be identified as indigenous within the current CLSA data. There are three variables that have some indigenous identity embedded within them, the ethnicity variable, the cultural and racial background question, and in the languages spoken. So Aboriginal is an option for each of those questions. So when we combine those three potential ways, then we have the sort of makings of self-reported indigenous identity, either in just going back again to either in terms of ethnicity, cultural and racial background or languages that are spoken. So the CLSA really has been on a path to reconciliation and respect for indigenous data sovereignty and indigenous data governance. And I wanted to just ground us in this image for a second because it's one image that I sometimes reflect on when I think about paths to respecting indigenous data sovereignty and indigenous data governance. Because the water is traveling in a direction. The water, let's just say, is traveling in the direction of indigenous data sovereignty and indigenous data governance. But the water can take a lot of different paths on that route. Sometimes it gets held up by a rock, sometimes it takes a little journey to the side, sometimes it's moving quickly and sometimes it's moving slowly. And I just really want us to honor the fact that it takes time and it's really important to reflect where things keep in mind the end journey and where the water is going, where we are all going together. But also honor the fact that there are different paths to get there and not just one straight line. So when we first started talking about this, well, I mean, there's different points where the conversations initially happened. So in the initial design of the CLSA, it did not include a co-design with indigenous researchers or communities. So that's, you know, part of what we are now addressing, that in that initial design, there wasn't room for that. There were some initial conversations, but it wasn't designed in collaboration with indigenous researchers or communities. So this sampling, the kinds of questions, the approach is something that was built and then now we're trying to work with. So that's foundational to this conversation, I think. And back in, it was either 2017 or 2018, but there was a presentation by the CLSA about the initial sort of description of who was in the baseline. And a group of indigenous dementia researchers within the CCNA sort of became aware that there was indigenous data, indigenous identified data within the CLSA. And that prompted discussions with indigenous organizations about the data access and use because it was exciting to think that there is indigenous data, indigenous identified aging data that can help answer questions for organizations and communities. But also just this sort of like, also this responsibility that indigenous communities and leadership feels over data that's about their communities and populations and people. So really wanting to make sure that the data would be used and accessed in a way that would center indigenous organizations, communities and people. So we actually collaborated on an initial data request for all the indigenous identified CLSA data. So just the request was not for a specific research question, it was, we want to have all the data that can be co-governed by indigenous organizations, indigenous researchers, so that we can make sure that it's safe and that it's being used by indigenous organizations and communities for indigenous organizations and communities. This request was not approved and you will, like we were very naive, you will completely understand why it wasn't approved because you will all know the process of having very specific research questions and justification for all the variables that you're asking for. But we were coming at it from a very different perspective. We were coming at it from the perspective of indigenous data sovereignty. And so I want to use this quote to ground that conversation just a little bit in that the act of knowing is a collective cultural and political imperative for indigenous peoples. Information, data and research about our peoples collected about us with us or by us belongs to us and must be cared for by us. So this was the sort of framing and positionality that we come to data with, that we're coming from those perspectives that it is our actual responsibility as indigenous organizations and nations and leaders to care for that data and to use it in a cycle of indigenous governance where the indigenous data are governed by indigenous leaders and that indigenous leaders use indigenous data for governance and decision making. So indigenous data governance involves both governance of data and use of data for governance. So this is the framing we're coming at this with an initial request for the CLSA data in its whole so that we could make sure that indigenous data governance principles were embedded. So we hesitate to step back obviously when those conversations were not aligned with how the CLSA is set up, how access to the data works. And so in 2019 then we regrouped and we put in with the Native Women's Association of Canada, that's what NWAC stands for, we put in a request for specific variables and with specific research questions in collaboration together. So between Native Women's Association of Canada and academic researchers like me. And then we did an initial descriptive analysis of the data. So what we were looking for is really to answer broad questions about aging experiences in indigenous people across Canada. And we gathered a group of 16 older indigenous people and elders from across Canada together to review the findings, to think about the context and to decide and confirm where to go next with the data. And that is part of a very community engaged approach to analysis of data. There must be a community partner, which is the Native Women's Association of Canada. There has to be ongoing community involvement and consent. And it has to, the analysis has to be guided by community. And so we had this meeting and you can see just a little screenshot of the report that came from the meeting that NWAC compiled. And they presented on behalf of those elders significant concerns to the CLSA about data governance, about representation and sampling. And about the relevance of the content and the need for indigenous people to be determining what was asked of indigenous participants in the CLSA. So data governance, representation and sampling and relevance of content. These were sort of three buckets of concerns that community brought forward, community members and NWAC brought forward to us as researchers. And so really we're now, this has taken us on, it has really prompted us on this journey of really reflecting on these things and saying, okay, what in the CLSA, the currently collected CLSA data needs to change in terms of data governance to make sure that the current cohort of indigenous people who have given their individual consent, but that we've got principles of indigenous data governance in the access and use of the data. What do we need to do in the future for better representation and sampling for First Nations in NMAT populations when we're thinking about aging cohorts? Because we can't change that for right now, for the baseline CLSA, but we can envision and imagine and develop approaches to First Nation, NMAT cohorts potentially, if that's where communities and organizations would want us to go. And then the third thing really the relevance of the content, how do we decolonize the approaches? How do we make sure that we're asking about people's asking in really trauma-informed and safe ways, asking about the context of residential school, for example, and things that really do influence how people experience aging from First Nations, NMAT and NMAT populations. So in 2020, that year will trigger for you that this was, it was right before the pandemic. CLSA hosted a gathering of indigenous organizations and researchers here in Hamilton, and I was coming down from Sudbury because I was working at Laurentian University at the time. So we all gathered and talked about these things and reviewed what the report from the Native Women's Association had said in CLSA people had invited other indigenous organizations as well. And the outcome of the meeting was a pause on accessing indigenous identified data until we could figure some things out. So you can see that the statement that came out in September based on that earlier meeting where there was a pause. And so that might be the last time you heard about this. And so where are we going from here? So this access was paused until we could figure out a process that respects both research ethics requirements and indigenous data sovereignty principles. And so this is where we're on, you know, we're at one of those slow parts of the journey where we're going a little bit sideways. The water is not moving quickly because we really need to figure out where we're going next. Where are we going to sort of make a new path through this mountain pass? And so the CLSA made some commitments. They committed to supporting research that benefits all people living in Canada and to ensuring that all research involving First Nations, Métis, and Inuit peoples is conducted in a manner that respects indigenous data governance principles and rights, including researcher responsibilities to uphold those same principles and rights in their research activities. So this commitment was made and then we sort of have to figure out, okay, what does that actually mean? So where I'm going to go from here in our conversation is to think about what are those data governance principles and rights. And then we'll talk about how the CLSA is sort of operationalizing a process that respects those principles and rights. So first we're going to talk about, you know, things at a bit of a higher level like what are those principles and then what the CLSA is doing. So first thing, research ethics. What does our tri-council policy statements say about working with indigenous data? And this is a requirement we all have as researchers. And sometimes, you know, we know we've all sort of taken the TCPS core training. We know that Chapter 9 is about indigenous First Nations, Inuit, Métis research. What does it actually mean for the work that we do? If we're going to be using data that's been previously collected, that includes an indigenous identifier. What does it mean? So in Article 9.1, it says that researchers, if there's going to be research that affects the welfare of an indigenous community or communities, researchers shall seek engagement with the relevant community. That includes research where indigenous identity or membership in an indigenous community is used as a variable for the purpose of analysis of the research data. So it doesn't say that your whole study is about indigenous populations. It says where you've used an indigenous identifier. And we just talked about all three of the places in the CLSA where you can find indigenous identifiers. So if we are using those identifiers as a variable or those, you know, those levels of the variable for the purpose of analysis of the research data, even if we're controlling for it, you know, we're controlling for indigenous identity or we want to explore the impact of, you know, race and culture. And that includes indigenous identity. This requires engagement with the relevant community. So this isn't even something that, you know, we're going above and beyond what's required for just the ethical standards of research. The base requirement for ethical standards of research in Canada. So that caused us to pause to make sure that we have a process that ensures that researchers are seeking engagement with the relevant community if they're accessing indigenous identifiers. So that was the first thing. The second article to point out is article 9.2. And the nature and extent of community engagement of projects shall be determined jointly by the researcher and the relevant community. And shall be appropriate to community characteristics and the nature of the research. So that means that there's not only one way of doing it. It means there's not a formula for community engagement. So that poses a challenge for reviewing CLSA applications to access data, obviously, because, you know, there's not just going to be able to be a clear. Yes, this is, you know, this is every project needs this, this and this, or needs a signature or needs that every project could look different in terms of the nature and extent of community engagement, because it's determined jointly by the researcher and the relevant community. So this other aspect of it where it's appropriate to community characteristics and the nature of the research also matters. So, you know, it's, you know, there are some ways that I go about it in my work, where if I'm working with a national level data, I try and have a national level partner. Or if I'm working with provincial level data, I try to have a provincial level partner. And if I'm working with First Nations data, it's a First Nations partner. If it's indigenous data that includes First Nations, Inuit and Métis, then I decide whether I'm really engaging with First Nations, Inuit and Métis, or if I should only be accessing First Nations data because I'm only really engaging with First Nations. So there's lots of different things to consider when we're talking about the nature and extent of community engagement. But this, this we know, it is part of the TCPS, we know that this is the base requirement that we all have to, we all have to stand up to. So, indigenous data sovereignty, what is that? So we've looked at it from an ethics perspective, now thinking about indigenous sovereignty. So the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous People is a starting point. And, you know, Canada is now a signatory to, not just a signatory to that, took a while actually. But also now has an act to make these things part of how we, a legal framework for the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous People. And some of the things to just really think about, it's like, it's all about self-determination. It's about ensuring that we recognize that all these institutions that we are part of at universities and governments, as researchers often, part of these institutions are situated in places where indigenous sovereignty is a reality. It's not just a concept, it's a reality. Indigenous self-determination and sovereignty are established in treaties and it is a reality. So we have to respect it. So some of those key features are, you know, the right to autonomy and self-government, having distinct institutions. And then the diversity, this Article 15 here, the right to dignity and diversity of cultures, traditions, histories and aspirations, which shall be appropriately reflected in education and public information. So we want to make sure that indigenous knowledges are respected in the way we collect data to produce public information. We want to make sure that we respect the decision-making authority of indigenous institutions, that we're seeking free prior and informed consent before we do anything that might affect indigenous nations, and that they have the right to determine and develop priorities and strategies and administer programs. And this is part of that governance cycle where it's the right to govern data, but also to use data to develop and administer programs and to develop priorities. So I wanted to highlight these things because I think that both the research ethics and the indigenous sovereignty helps to ground us in thinking beyond individual consent. So every one of those 1800 people gave individual consent for researchers to use their indigenous identity data. But what we also see from both the research ethics perspective and indigenous sovereignty perspective is that we also need collective consent. We need to find a way to make sure we're doing adequate engagement for collective consent. So every one of these little threads that make up this spider web have to consent, but there needs to be something holding it together to make sure that there's collective consent to go down any analysis path. So here are some other principles that can help to take those concepts and make them a little bit more, they're still principles, but make them a little bit more concrete. They're things that can help guide our thinking around what this means. And, you know, so this, these care principles were actually developed in response to the fair principles. So fair principles you may have heard about before that, that all research data should be findable, accessible, interoperable and reusable. But also, we said, great, that makes perfect sense. But at the same time, if it's indigenous data, there needs to be another layer. And that these principles, these care principles of collective benefit, the authority to control responsibility and ethics also need to be applied. So there's some resources here. There's a publication, but then also these kinds of visuals and things to help you think through both operationalizing the care principles. So there's another paper that I should add there on operationalizing the care principles. But just thinking through what do these, what do these things mean? So here's a bit more detail on the collective benefit data ecosystem shall be designed and function in ways that enable indigenous peoples to derive benefit from the data. You can see that's what we were trying to do at the very beginning where we said, okay, we need to have the data ecosystem for the COSA is not designed that right now for indigenous peoples to derive benefit from the data. So let's hold the data somewhere and make sure that that's the priority that the indigenous data is is helping to helping in that cycle of indigenous data governance. So for for these for these outcomes. So also go to authority to control so that indigenous peoples rights and interests and indigenous data must be recognized and their authority to control such data respected. So this is these, this is that concept of data for governance and governance of data that I keep coming back to you. The responsibility those working with indigenous data have a responsibility to share how those data are used to support indigenous peoples self determination and collective benefit. And then the ethics indigenous peoples rights and well being should be the primary concern of all stages of the data life cycle and across the data ecosystem for maximizing harm, minimizing our maximizing benefit for justice and for future use. So these principles can be helpful to to start thinking through even your own use. It's definitely helpful for thinking about like, what does a cohort. Like, what does the COSA cohort and the way we organize the data and the data access have to look like, but also also thinking through, you know, your own projects with the data. Another set of principles which you probably are familiar with, but just in case you're not is the First Nations data governance principles in Canada. So those other principles were developed globally. These principles are very specific to First Nations data in Canada, and have been established since the 1990s, and they are that First Nations data needs to be owned controlled access and possessed by First Nations. And I wanted to highlight here that there's an opportunity. It may be paused right now, again, like the it's a little fork in the river, where they're updating their OCAP training. But this is where through the First Nations information governance center you can access training to help understand these principles of ownership control access and possession. And visiting the First Nations information governance center website is a great idea. And that's one of the organizations that the COSA was consulting with when we had that meeting in 2020. So here we come to, okay, so, you know, we've paused since 2020 on releasing Indigenous identified data in the COSA. And we dealt with a few other things in the meantime, but also like, you know, like the pandemic and my I moved from Laurentian University to McMaster University. There's been lots and lots of changes in all of our lives. And so we're starting another part of this journey. We found another, we found a path. We think that will be a bit of the next stage of this journey in terms of the access to Indigenous identified data within the COSA. So here's a summary of the new requirements. Really, there needs to be meaningful and respectful engagement with relevant Indigenous peoples when using and reporting on Indigenous identifiers. So there will have, when you are applying, and I'm going to show you this process, when you're applying, you're going to need to talk about your engagement with who the level of engagement, not just a thought about who you might engage with, but actually what conversations have you had. If you're not sure where to start with thinking about partnering with Indigenous organizations, there's some training that can potentially help you at least get started. You know, your first call shouldn't be to your local Indigenous scholar if you don't already have experience with this. Your first step should be to kind of seek out some, you know, taking cultural safety training. And then these two resources I really wanted to highlight for people. One is training on building Indigenous community research partnerships. So it gives you an opportunity to reflect on how to begin building community research partnerships. And then this other training that's very, it's very new. And it's actually what we're going to be basing much of our assessment of the extent and quality of the engagement. For the applications that come forward to the COSA. So this training on using this Indigenous research engagement tool that was developed in Saskatchewan. So right now it's very Saskatchewan specific. And it was developed from the Saskatchewan Center for Patient-Oriented Research, but also in collaboration with the First Nations University of Canada. And so I really encourage you to go and look at this tool. There's like a really nice, nicely laid out, very easy to follow, sort of tool to guide the level and extent of engagement. Ideally, if you're doing an Indigenous focused project that has Indigenous focused research question, there should be Indigenous governance of the whole project. So what we're not introducing is like an Indigenous data governance committee that approves all access to all Indigenous data in the COSA. We are not doing that. What we're doing is saying it is the researcher's responsibility to ensure that your project includes the appropriate engagement and governance within it. So it's not, you know, there's not going to be a group of Indigenous community members saying yay or nay. What you're going to have to do as researchers is design your projects in a way that respects both research ethics and Indigenous data sovereignty. So here's how you actually do that. Once you've kind of got that sorted out, you're going to apply for, you know, in Magnolia, if you've applied for CLSA data before, you're familiar with this, and you're going to see a section here that says, please note that projects that include Indigenous identifiers will undergo an additional review to ensure that meaningful and respectful engagement with relevant Indigenous peoples is integrated throughout the project. And then you have to answer the question, does your proposed project include the use of Indigenous First Nations, Métis, and you meet self-identifiers? And you know that that could be the ethnicity, the culture and race or language, self-identifiers. And then if it's a yes, please include a description of how you intend to use Indigenous identifiers in your analysis and how you're involving Indigenous organizations, people and governing bodies in your project. Have you established Indigenous governance of your project? If this is not a central part of your research, like you want to access the identifiers, but it's not a central part, who are you working with to ensure that any interpretation of meaning that comes from the analysis of the Indigenous identifiers is informed, is driven by Indigenous organizations, people and governing bodies. So this is going to be the new thing that as an applicant to access the data, this is what researchers will be asked to do. So it doesn't have to be, you know, what it does have to be is specific. It does have to be as specific as possible so that we can assess. We can ensure that it's not just a future state. But we also don't want to dictate, because you remember in the Tri-Council Policy Statement, it says that, you know, between the community partner and the researcher, then the level and extent of engagement is co-determined. So we don't want to say you have to have a signed letter or you have to have this because we don't want to impose on any Indigenous organization or community what their governance looks like, but we want to know that the researcher has done that work. So simple, right? So this is kind of where we've come to is that we have, you know, there's always this, what I just described as the one page, when you do a submission that says how the identifiers are going to be used and how you're doing engagement. Then it will go through its normal reviews, but these reviews will now include aspects of assessing the Indigenous, if you're going to be accessing Indigenous identifiers, and then making sure that there is some, there's evidence of meaningful and respectful engagement with the appropriate groups. So, you know, all these same processes, it doesn't impact anything that you have to do other than that one page, it's just how it will be assessed going forward. And just, you know, we'll do a double check, making sure that the ethics approval, you know, that it's included in there, that we've got the throughout. We've got an assurance that the data that we are basically holding in trust for Indigenous nations is going to be used in the best way. So I just wanted to sort of sum up that part by saying here's some tips that I have for ethically using and reporting on Indigenous data. And just it's about, it's about approach, right? It's about conducting work and service to community that supports community priorities as respecting Indigenous governance protocols. So if you're working with, you know, when we're working with the Native Women's Association, it's very different than working with the First Nations Information Governance Centre or with the Chiefs of Ontario or with the Bahl-Huskabell Tribal Council. I'm listing off different partners I've worked with because every single one of them has been very, very different in terms of their governance protocols and the steps we have to go through for everything.  I can't, in none of the work that I do, can I submit an abstract without having it approved at a community level first. So that means that any timelines I have for getting an abstract and for a conference, back that up by two months, or potentially one month if we can be really quick about it, to make sure it goes through the approval processes before anything is shared outside the community. Recognize and promote sovereignty by ensuring Indigenous direction and governance throughout, so really understanding what sovereignty means. Centering Indigenous values and communities in the knowledge sharing, so making sure that we're prioritizing information, getting to the people it needs to get to, to support their decision making and governance. Strengthening and building data capacity within communities. So, you know, that's a big part of what our responsibility is as researchers who use data is making sure that we're building collective capacity, building our own capacity to work in partnership and building community capacity to use and understand data. And really to build on strengths and not deficits. And that's a really important thing when we're thinking about data because data can be used as in very harmful ways if we're building on deficits instead of strengths. So where are we going next? Like where is this path going to go from here? So there's really two conditions for data sovereignty. We have to think about decolonizing data and the governance. So we have been focusing on this governance question. We haven't been focusing on decolonizing the actual data right now. And when I say decolonizing, it's because data has often been used in actually as a vehicle for colonization when it actually keeps perpetuating narratives of disparity, deprivation, disadvantage, dysfunction, and difference. So when we perpetuate these narratives of dependency, then we're actually undermining sovereignty. So we really need to be flipping everything if we're going to be decolonizing data. So now we have to go back to what advice we got from the Native Women's Association at the beginning and those 16 elders who took the time to travel to be together and to sit with us with the data. And the other things that they were worried about, the relevance of the content and the representation and sampling. So we are a key next step is establishing a CLSA Indigenous Working Group that can start to think about where we need to go from here. This is not going to be a small task. This is not going to be a few small meetings. If it took us this long to kind of get a data governance pathway, imagine how long it could take us to sort of decolonize our thinking around the content, the representation and sampling within the CLSA. So I just want to invite any Indigenous scholars or people with a depth of experience that could be really helpful and useful in this process and who are really interested in thinking through these issues to reach out to me as we start to think about an Indigenous Working Group to guide these next steps. Or to actually take the next steps, I should say, we're getting the guidance. We have to get the guidance from Indigenous organizations and communities. So I just want to say now I thank you so much for this opportunity to share with you and I look forward to the time we have left to have a discussion. Thank you. Thank you so much, Jennifer. I know this having been part of these discussions with you since 2020, I know how much work and effort and discussion has gone into this. So thank you again for everything as well as this webinar today. I'm going to open it up to questions now. Some people have already started posting questions. Just a reminder though that the meeting will remain on, but you can enter your questions into the Q&A box, not the chat box, in the bottom of the Zoom window. So the first question is hopefully an easy question, but I'll let you, I think I know the answer, but I'll let you answer. Is the report that came out between NWAC and CLSA publicly available? Oh, sorry. There wasn't a report from the meeting between NWAC and CLSA. This was a report of the meeting of the elders council that reviewed the CLSA data with us. And that hasn't been publicly available. What we have been working on, you can imagine that, or maybe you can't imagine that it's been three years and it's not finished. But we have written a paper that we will be submitting that will then sort of give that analysis that we did, and then also the response that we had from the elders and from NWAC. So when that's available, I think it will be very helpful to people. But the actual report that NWAC provided to the CLSA is not public. So the next one is, is there interested in learning how the possession part of OCAP is being followed by the CLSA, as well as other population-based surveys such as CCHS and ITES data? Do these sets not violate that principle since indigenous peoples and communities do not physically control the data? Yes, yeah. So we are not, I would not say that the way we're organizing the data access is OCAP because we are not able to, I mean, that was the initial request we had was to possess the data, right? We couldn't have it held in trust by an indigenous organization that could then be more in line with OCAP itself. What we don't have is, and that's this, so the CLSA, it's funny that we have these three examples in here because they're actually all quite different in how they approach indigenous data sovereignty. Yes, it doesn't, right? So there is no sort of indigenous governance at all of CCHS data. CLSA has now put in some indigenous governance of indigenous data. And then at ICES, it's a different kind of data because it's not primary data collection, it's administrative health data. And there it's done through data governance agreements with the First Nations in Ontario. So there's, it's not in the legal framework of health data in Ontario, it's not legal for ICES to transfer data to chiefs of Ontario, for example. So instead there's a data governance agreement that is based on those OCAP principles so that it's possession in sort of a virtual way through data governance rather than the physical possession of the data.  So, you know, we've had the, you know, the form formality of data governance agreements at ICES here with the CLSA rather than sort of an overall data governance framework, it's sort of project by project data governance that's going to have to happen, and then the CCHS there's not. So I know that's maybe a convoluted answer, but essentially none of those are purely OCAP compliant. Okay, so we have a few more questions. So the next one is, are the questions and strategies in the CLSA for Indigenous identity acceptable? What I'm trying to ask is if there are methods, are the methods and what you and others, are they what you would recommend? No, I mean, they're not really questions about Indigenous identity, right? So they're not, but I think that kind of thing is part of the next steps. Because what we're trying to deal with, what we've been trying to deal with is what's there right now, and then where we go from here I think is going to require a totally different conversation with a wide variety of people. What I do know is that if we go down the path of having a distinctly Indigenous process or something like that, then I don't think that those identifiers are how people would want to be... So like there would be interest in a distinctions based approach, right? Where there would be a First Nations kind of approach and cohort, a Metis approach and cohort. So like this sort of pan-Indigenous approach is not the one that I expect Indigenous organizations would want to take. So embedding these kinds of like embedding it in culture and ethnicity and language variables is not the approach that we would likely take if we were building this from scratch. So it's something that the Indigenous working group will be doing consultation on. Thanks for the question, Andrea. The next question is related to Magnolia, which is the CLSA's data application system. Will there be an expectation, if not now, but in the future for applicants who do not plan to use Indigenous identifiers to justify why they're not justifying it? I'm just thinking about, for example, how not considering sex and gender must be justified for CIHR. I would not, at this point, suggest it. I wouldn't suggest it because I think it takes the sort of commitment and like genuine commitment that it takes to do Indigenous research. I wouldn't want it to be a general expectation for every research project because that burden of having Indigenous organizations needing to be engaged in every project, even when it's not coming from their priority, is not the way I would want to see it at all. Like Indigenous communities don't have everything as a priority and can't invest time in every researcher's priorities. So I would suggest that we wouldn't want to go down a route where it was expected that every application can include Indigenous involvement. Okay, so we have another question. I understand the talk deals with self-identification. What happens if Indigenous ancestry is indicated by genetic analysis of CLSA biospecimens? Wow, interesting. That's not something we've considered at all, but it sounds like David Hogan would like to join the Indigenous working group. I agree. But I think that's, I mean, those are real questions and right now there's a big Indigenous identity conference happening. There's so many questions about Indigenous identity and ancestry and what is the distinction between ancestry and identity? Those are big, big questions. And so I think they, if there's, if we wouldn't want to conflate the two, I guess, we wouldn't want to make, we wouldn't want to imagine that those two things are the same. Thanks for that. Heads up there, David. The next question is from Stephanie. She asks, will this reduce the researchers who request Indigenous data and therefore leave a gap in the information we have on this community? When Indigenous peoples are not a main focus, for example, in dementia across peoples? So it's a gap for who, I guess, is the thing. So this is always, this is always a challenge, right? Because if a researcher is not willing or have the time to do Indigenous engagement properly and use the data in a way that's really informing Indigenous nations, then it's not very helpful to just put more information out about Indigenous people without involving Indigenous people. So I think that, you know, there might be, there might be fewer projects, but that might not actually, you know, if there's a priority coming from Indigenous communities, then that's what we need to focus on. But I, you know, I hear what you're saying, and it happens a lot. People often say this to me, like, well, then you're just not going to get the same quality of research or the same number of research projects done with Indigenous communities. But if it's not done the right way, it can do more harm than good. So that's, I guess, my main answer. And thanks for Tina Wolfson, who's one of the PIs has added a comment in support of that. I'll let both of you read that. But I'm just going to note, we have probably a time for one last question. So just a reminder for those participants who are starting to lead to please complete your exit questionnaire. And meantime, we'll continue with the last question or two, which is next one is from Megan O'Connell. Given how NWAC did not feel that sampling methods and CLSA did not reflect the experience of First Nations, Métis and Inuit people, are there plans to help CLSA researchers understand the limitations of the findings they have with Indigenous identifiers? Or is the manuscript you're working on going to be able to be a resource? Yes, I'm hoping the manuscript will be a resource. Yeah. Yeah, that's the main message there. Which means, Tina, I don't think there was a question in your comments. I'm just going to presume that was just a comment. Cliff asks, thanks so much for the presentation and all the hard work. I had two questions. Does the CLSA administration have any plans to offer access fee waivers or grants for Indigenous scholars? That's not a question for me, I don't think. Cliff, I'll just pipe in and say, unless Parminder or Tina wants to pipe in, I think we're considering everything at this point and I don't think anything is off the table or on the table. So we don't know right now. So the second question is, but it is a great idea and probably something that should be done. Second question, I work with the Indigenous cohort in the Health and Retirement Study in the U.S. and am interested in cross-walking these data with the CLSA. Is there any interest with the CLSA administration in developing cross-national collaborations on Indigenous aging research when possible? I would say, I don't know about the CLSA administration, but I'm very interested. Yeah, you can consider yourself part of that. Yeah, so maybe if there is interest there, I mean, I think you're welcome to follow up with Dr. Walker or any of our PIs in the study. So always looking to collaborate. Okay, so I think that will actually, let's squeeze in one more if that's okay, and then that'll be the last one. I know I usually like to finish right at two. But Kate asks, if identifiers are not used for access, is there any guidance or recommendation on how to report the representative representatives of the sample in terms of Indigenous population in the methods or limitation section of description analysis of CLSA data? Based on census data, I think 3.7% is slightly lower than the Indigenous population. Yeah, and that would make sense, right, because there was no sampling on reserve. So we're missing all the on reserve population for sure. So I think it's a good question and I think that that's something we can take back and consider and making sure that there's guidance around that. Thank you so much, Kate. Okay, so I think that will bring us to an end. Thank you again. I think this was really a very engaging webinar and lots of questions. And again, we've had lots of interesting questions come to the CLSA about this, so very timely and well overdue. I'd like to thank everyone else for attending. Please remember that the deadline for the next data access applications is April 12. And you can find information under data access on the CLSA website to review the available data as well as additional details of data access process. I'd also like to remind you about completing your anonymous survey upon leaving, which I've already reminded you about. And that breaks us to the next CLSA webinar, which explores the topic, the impact of urban greenness on health and aging, and that'll be on April 19 by Susanna Abraham, Kota Kota jury and Irmina Plistnik. I did not say those names right. I apologize. Registration details are on our website as well. And remember this CLSA promotes this webinar series using the hashtag CLSA webinar. And we invite you to follow us on Twitter at CLSA underscore CLSA underscore ELCV. I'm trying to rush and so I'm fumbling now, but thank you again everyone and Dr. Walker for attending and for a great webinar. Have a great day.


This study evaluated the enzymatic potential of a large number of plant pathogenic and non-pathogenic fungi for their ability to degrade plant biomass and isolated polysaccharides. Plant pathogenic fungi were found to be more active than non-pathogenic fungi on six out of eight substrates tested, with no significant difference seen on the other two substrates. Additionally, several highly active isolates of plant pathogenic fungi were identified, particularly when tested on xylons and untreated biomass. This suggests that these fungi may be good sources of novel cell wall degrading enzymes for industrial applications. This article was authored by Bergstrom Gary C, Walker Larry P, Nenny Nicholas V and others.


Learn English verbs, present continuous for future use, from espressoenglish.net. Most students learn to use the present continuous for actions happening at the current moment. For example, I'm studying English right now. And use will or going to for future actions. For example, I'm going to take an English test tomorrow. But did you know that you can also use the present continuous to talk about the future? I'm taking an English test tomorrow. Is the same as I'm going to take an English test tomorrow. Here are some more examples. I'm meeting with my boss later today. Later today means the event is in the future, but we can use the present continuous. I'm meeting. Here's a negative example. Peter isn't coming to the party this weekend. This weekend places the event in the future, but we use the present continuous. Isn't coming. We can also use the present continuous for the future in questions. For example, what are you doing next Saturday? Is Mary arriving at seven o'clock or eight o'clock tomorrow morning? Using the present continuous to talk about the future is used with definite plans and arrangements, not predictions. For example, I think it's raining tomorrow. Is incorrect. For a prediction that is not yet definite, use will or going to. The correct sentence is, I think it's going to rain tomorrow. The present continuous for the future is often used with these words. Later, tonight, tomorrow, or this weekend. Next week, next month, next year. On Monday, on Tuesday, etc. In July, in August, in September, etc. Thanks for watching English Tips from espressoenglish.net. If you like this video, please share it.


Hi, my name is Adriana Jara and today in unpacking the word box we're going to go over word box caching strategies and learning how to cache your static assets with only one line of code. In a previous video I went over different types of caching, pre caching, runtime caching, and a warm cache strategy. You can review those concepts with the link in the description. In this video I'll go over the different cache strategies you get out of the box with word box and how with a line of code you can implement a cache for your static assets with a word box recipe. In case you're not familiar with word box it is a set of tools developed to make the implementation of service workers easier. If you're not familiar with service workers you can check their documentation on this page. The service worker acts as an intermediary. Our app gives the service worker requests and the service worker decides where to get the response from and gives our app the response back. Word box has word box routing to be able to identify a group of requests to then use word box strategies to tell the service worker what to do to get the response for that group of requests. The purpose of the method register route is to give the service worker a way to identify these requests with this route and when you find them respond with this strategy. In this verbose example we pass a way to identify requests for images and tell the service worker to respond with a cache first strategy. I'm explaining what the different cache strategies that are available out of the box with word box. The one in the example is cache first. The way this strategy works is if there is a response in the cache the request will be fulfilled using the cached response and the network will not be used at all but if there is in a cached response the request will be fulfilled by the network and the response will be cached so that the next request will use the version from the cache. It is particularly useful for assets that are non-critical and can be gradually cached. Next we have the network first. It is an idea solution for requests that are updating frequently. By default it will try to fetch the latest response from the network. If the request is successful it will put the response in the cache. If the network fails to return a response the cached response will be used. We also have the stable revalidated strategy. It allows you to respond to the request as quickly as possible with a cached response if available falling back to the network request if it is not cached. The network request is then used to update the cache. As opposed to some implementation of a stable revalidate this strategy will always make a revalidation request regardless of the age of the cached response. This is a fairly common strategy where having the most up-to-date resource is not vital for the application. Finally we have the network only and cache only strategies. Network only is used for requests that you must get fresh from the network every time. The cache only strategy will never go to the network for a response. It is not a common in Wordbox but if you saw the previous video it can be used to implement your own pre-cache. Now you know what options are available for serving your different resources. Let's check out a couple of ways to implement a cache for static resources. This cache is specific for CSS, JavaScript and worker files. We'll deal with images in the next video. Here is the longer version to implement our cache. We create a method that identifies the types of requests handled by this pattern. In this case we'll use our stable revalidate strategy to prioritize the speed of response over serving the very latest version. And we register the route so Wordbox knows this is what we want to do with those assets. Writing this code is not a bad but we've seen this pattern repeated enough times that we decided to make it as easy as one line. Without any options that one line is equivalent to the long version but you can pass options to that method and change the cache name or the callback to choose how to identify your static assets. Check out the options available on this URL. Saying the caching is complex is an understatement but Wordbox provides strategies out of the box that allow you to focus on choosing the strategies that best meet your needs instead of repeating common patterns. You can even cache your static assets with one line. Wordbox also gives you the flexibility to create your own caching strategy. Check out the Wordbox documentation for more information here. You can subscribe for more developer news and tips. Your comments and questions below are welcome. Thank you. Until next time.