going to get into One Health and it seems like ILRI has been working or ILRI scientists both in integrated and biosciences have been working on One Health for a very long time and we've got this opportunity to get everyone on board so with the way we're going to do this is I'm going to quickly bring our experts and we're going to ask them a bunch of questions and Michael confirmed that we can put our questions in the chat box and in the mentee so we can try and address some of these and I encourage everyone to try and go to the New Zoonotic Landing page which shows what we've been doing so Eric are you there I am good morning everyone so Eric we have the first question for you we're going to give you five minutes and I've got a couple of questions for you and we're going to start with what's the difference between a pandemic and an epidemic and why did WHO take so long to declare a pandemic okay so I guess I there are a few a few definitions that we should probably start with before we get to pandemic so okay so first is the term endemic which is important to know and an endemic disease is a disease which is found amongst a particular group of people or animals in a particular geographical area in a stable fashion and it comes from the Greek word endemos which means native and basically examples of this might be malaria in sub-Saharan Africa broadly speaking a disease called echinococcus in Turkana is endemic there the common cold is endemic globally and African swine fever is an endemic disease in Kenya then moved to a sort of slightly higher level definition which would be an epidemic which is somewhat more unstable than an endemic disease and it comes from the Greek upon the people and an endemic disease is a disease that's spreading amongst an unusually extensive group of people or of individuals in a population or in a community or through a whole region and so for example there might be an epidemic of African swine fever in China at the moment an epidemic of obesity in North America so it's not all infectious diseases an epidemic of malaria in in Mombasa during the rainy season or an epidemic of foot and mouth disease in in the UK in 2001 that would be another example so that's what an epidemic is and then a pandemic is simply an epidemic but at a much bigger scale and it comes again from the Greek pandemos which means belonging to all the people and really a pandemic is an epidemic that's occurring worldwide or over a very large area crossing international boundaries and affecting a very substantial population thanks Eric so Eric after you define these tell us why do you why do who takes so long to declare this to be a pandemic so there's a there's a degree of politics of course in that declaration process the first thing WHO did was declare COVID-19 as a public health emergency of international concern or or p heck and that basically says look this thing is spreading we need to watch it and we need to mobilize funding to potentially deal with with a problem that is growing and then declaring it as a pandemic essentially says it's out of control so going from epidemic up to pandemic you you have less and less control over what is happening and of course WHO is an organization that is managed by its member states and no member state wants to put across the fact that it's not got things under control and so there was some some degree of hesitation I think associated with the degree of control of transmission that was going on great um so Eric this isn't the first pandemic and we've had some previously which I'd just like you to give an example on and also just to share with those people who aren't sure about one health in terms of what are some of the lessons that we can learn from pandemics so there have been there have been several pandemics thankfully not lots there are animal pandemics and human pandemics so I would say that African swine fever is reaching pandemic levels on the edges of Russia and Europe because it's spreading in multiple countries potentially in an uncontrolled way although our African swine fever expert colleagues may wish to comment on that um H1N1 was declared a pandemic Zika virus was briefly a pandemic plague in Europe was certainly a pandemic Spanish flu in 1918 was definitely HIV was a pandemic so we may often forget that but there was a pandemic pandemic scale transmission of HIV in the late 80s and up to the early 1990s and some might say that blue tongue which is an animal disease also um so yes so you want to move on in the last minute you have maybe you can summarize how do we prevent future pandemics what are some of the things we need to do first of all we need to do surveillance a lot of surveillance and in the context of one health that means doing surveillance at interfaces between animals and people both wild animals and domestic animals and also accounting for the environmental envelope in which transmission has occurred but also addressing many of the root causes of of transmission at those interfaces particularly encroachment of environment into into new environments or poor management of complex interfaces which might be with virgin forest or might be the urban interface or it might be some interface between urbanization and wildlife habitats and that kind of thing so it's really about managing the way that we interact with the natural world thank you Eric thank you so much for that um can we have Delia hello Delia I wanted to find out um what for those people who who don't know about one health what is a one health approach and why does it matter yes well there are several definitions of one health but they all have something in common in fact I can say they all have three things in common firstly is the integration of the three healths human health animal health and ecosystem health and here I say integration because I think we're all used to different disciplines working in the same project but working in their own silo side by side and every year they meet up and they tell each other what they've done in one health this actually requires integration or closely working together another component another essential characteristic is its work at the intersection of the three healths so we often show these three healths as three circles like a like a Venn diagram and one health is where they come together so if you work on foot and mouth disease you may be indirectly helping human health um but if you work on rift valley fever you are very close to helping human health so we're talking about the intersection a third aspect is collaboration and adding value from collaboration again we've often seen that when we work across disciplines and one health requires not just working across health disciplines but also working across other disciplines such as environment ecology gender socioeconomics that working across disciplines can sometimes add transaction costs we say an approach is one health where it is adding value so the benefits of working together exceed the costs so that's how I would define one health okay and then Delia so then why does it affect all of us and in terms of what are some of the gaps that exist right now in one health well at the moment the world is living in the midst of four great one health crisis four four problems which arise at the intersection of these three healths and they are one of them we're talking about today which is emerging infectious diseases Eric has summarized I think all of us know about COVID-19 and we don't know about other other emerging infectious diseases but Eric drew our attention to some of the important ones of the last decades there's also the endemic we heard about the endemic the diseases we have always with us the endemic zoonoses which are diseases transmitted from animals to people and in fact if you look at the actual health impacts on poor people those of the endemic zoonosis like pork tapeworm or some of the foodborne diseases are probably greater the third crisis that takes me to the third crisis which is food safety food safety comes from agriculture often makes animals ill and definitely makes humans ill and that that is another one health problem and finally antimicrobial resistance where the the three quarters of the world's antimicrobials are used in animals and yet a huge human health impact is already with us by 2050 AM our resistant pathogens may be killing more people than cancer unless we start taking stronger action including our action in agriculture thank you um should we be worried about getting COVID from livestock companion pets and should we be worried about consuming animal source food if infected with COVID so there have been a very few cases across the world of COVID being detected in cats large and small and one dog um many of the lead organization European food food safety CDC um World Health Organization have looked very carefully at these two questions you've asked and their conclusion is unanimous there is no at present there is no need to be concerned about acquiring COVID-19 from either animals pets or food so that is at least one thing we don't need to worry about great and in the last minute that you have um can you share what or actually you have a couple of minutes uh what are some of the myths that we should uh what are some of the myths around um one health and pandemics and what should we what should we be really concerned about well we've mentioned one of the the main myths and that is that food or animals may now be having a role in transmission um so so that's an important one not to worry about I think a potentially dangerous myth is that home cures uh can be effective and that we can rely on them another myth is that we can just rely on on on single actions like masks we know now we should all be wearing masks but wearing a mask is not enough to protect you you also need to observe social distancing good hygiene wash hands frequently and all the other advice there's many myths around I don't have time to go through them all but there's also many sources of good information including the ctc website the world health organization and the ministry of health in Kenya so I would encourage you all to google those and and and get bring yourself up to date on on COVID in terms of what we should really be concerned about well I think there are two major concerns one is that nearly all the the sickness and death has occurred in quite a small group of people and those are elderly people with other health problems so those are the people who are most at risk and those are the people we need to make sure are isolated and are kept as safe as possible my other concern and that's especially in Kenya and other low and middle income countries is that the impacts of attempting to control this this this this truly serious pandemic can in themselves have many many serious impacts in terms especially of people's access to food to work to livelihoods and how we can manage that trade-off to bring the disease under control without causing too much damage to livelihoods and economies and that's I think that's it from my side thank you actor thank you Delia thank you so much for this next session I would like to have Christina, Bernard, Ashley and Hung available I wanted to start with Christina we know that we've been doing quite a bit of stuff and Christina could you please share what we're doing here at Ilri with respect to One Health yes hi actor greetings from Germany well what I wanted to talk about is our new One Health Center at Ilri just before COVID-19 took off in China the German government allocated 8 million euros for a period of five years to build up a One Health Center at Ilri and the purpose of that One Health Center is not to reinvent the wheel it's more about consolidating all these One Health efforts that we have already included in our research at Ilri over the past two decades or so so this One Health Center is going to be some kind of umbrella for all the One Health work that is going on at Ilri we are trying to consolidate that research we want to complement it by for example better integrating with our environmental health colleagues and socioeconomics and we are attempting to scale activities that could be a training of frontline One Health practitioners in our various project countries it could be reaching out to policymakers by better science communication and therefore influencing their decision-making and as I said initially we're not going to reinvent the wheel we're building on what's already done in urban zoo in hill in the in the horn program in the build program and many others and the core traumatic areas of the One Health Center food safety zoonotic diseases and antimicrobial resistance so over thank you so much Christina and Christina in terms of the One Health Center itself can you share just a little bit about sort of activities that we plan to do because there's quite a few popping up everywhere so what would be unique about the one that we have based at our place well I think unique is that we are going to reach out to not only the Ilri internal One Health activities but also to others right now we're setting up some kind of yellow pages One Health activities directory by mapping One Health initiatives across sub-Saharan Africa which will be the geographical focus of the One Health Center at first and we actually I think the novelty is to actually give that platform and forum to discuss and then actually get things into action because what happens in research we have our little three to five year projects and then we just move on we don't work with the results we don't build on what we have learned we don't communicate with other research projects so I think that One Health Center can give this platform to yeah to take research into use thank you thank you so much Christina Bernard are you online yes actor thank you Bernard I know you've been doing some really exciting things and I'm always excited to talk about them but I'll let you tell everybody what you've been doing and also what else are we doing beyond your work on in the One Health space okay thanks I think the previous speakers actually alluded to some of the things we do and I would maybe mention a few because I think there's a lot large portfolio of research we do on One Health so the first would be the emerging and zoonotic infectious diseases which Eric actually leads and here we do lots of work looking at transmission patterns of diseases between livestock humans and wildlife so this has lots of partnerships between the veterinary community the human health community and also the environmental community and maybe you have heard of many projects which fit there like the zoo link the the horn the hill project you know all those really helped to address this specific problem of how diseases jump between livestock humans and wildlife so that's one the second other body of research is on what we call diseases in agricultural landscapes and this tries to look at how land use change and environmental change enhances or precipitates diseases to occur and so you've heard of things like irrigation being an intensive form of agriculture which helps to develop mosquitoes and so transmit vector bone diseases you have heard of things like inversion into forests and diseases coming out and that's a few years ago we had Ebola research in Uganda which really gave us a very good risk map of where we think Ebola could be and it was done by a colleague from Australia the other portion of work which we have been doing a lot is climate change and rift valley fever and that really helps in developing risk maps for diseases and that's what policy makers usually like using for planning surveillance what Eric was talking about surveillance between human and and and and livestock interface so that's the second the third which I briefly mentioned is food safety and that's what delia mentioned and it really has lots of one health approaches because there we are looking at using market interventions to enhance food safety and this is where people like Sylvia is doing lots of work on more milk projects to look at how we can build capacity along food value chains to reduce on on food safety issues there's lots of work on the flatoxins lots of work on food safety work in Tanzania and and so there's lots of all these things happening at the same time but in general I think they use one framework looking at one health across animals humans and wildlife thank you thank you so much Bernad Arshni are you there yes I am and actually what I wanted to do was to know I'm not able to share my screen so you don't get to see a very pretty picture of AMR and why is AMR a one health issue I can share that at another time so basically as Delia pointed out with AMR highlighting the gravity of the issue of AMR on animal and human health and really with AMR or antimicrobial resistance it arises in humans animals and the environment and these ecological niches are so interconnected or interrelated with each other so you have this beautiful transfer of AMR between the different niches and therefore if you really want to have an impact on addressing AMR you need a multi-sectorial approach so interventions in all the different sectors in order then to reduce AMR ultimately or the burden of AMR in animal in human health and at the AMR hub what we're doing is that there are a number of projects trying to produce very valuable data to or evidence to show the the agricultural contribution of AMR in life in sorry low and middle income countries and this is incredibly important because in high income countries like in Europe and America we have a lot of data showing or highlighting agricultural risks so what we are trying to do is to produce this data so that ultimately we will inform interventions that will eventually reduce AMR in the different sectors and then eventually reduce AMR in humans. So actually just one more question for you you know everywhere AMR doesn't have a face you can't see it you can't come and say I'm a recovery of AMR so how does that play in into this one whole one health where can you find it in these different systems that Delia made reference to? That's the difficulty because they is like you said you can't really there's no face of AMR and it's why it's also been dubbed as the silent pandemic and really where it is is that when you look at the number of people that are dying from AMR or the animals that lost in productivity animal productivity and that's you kind of see the effects of it of AMR and not AMR per se unless you are a microbiologist working in the lab then you could see it. Sure thank you so much Arshani thanks so much for that. Whom can you please tell us what you guys are doing in Asia as far as one health is concerned? Okay hello everyone you know I don't want to compare the quantity of work on one health from Asia to Africa because we have much less work here so that's why I want to come back a little bit in the history that when we started one health or rather eco health that Delia mentioned from the beginning 10 years ago in Southeast Asia basically building the capacity of one health in eco health for local partners here and now the ongoing work on one health in India in Southeast Asia focus on two areas one is more research and the second one I would say capacity and policy translation and in research we map into three things zoonotic disease and infection disease so with that we work on various nucleotide diseases in pets, rabies, dengue, we have also food safety and actually food safety is main work here in Vietnam and Cambodia and lastly the AMR work that has been started recently so we have various small pieces of work I would say and we try to translate it in capacity and policy and for that we work on three things we've been up some of the eco health or one health resource centers in Thailand, Vietnam and Indonesia so we have three and we we try to continue and the second one we develop a policy task force and mainly on food safety at the moment to work more with national and and policy medical level to translate some of these things into copies thank you thank you Hong thanks so much for that if I could just get everyone to still ask some questions or collect the questions you have before I moved to Ian Dieter and Jimmy and also just I know Bernard mentioned the HEAL project the horn project so just go to the Zoolink the Zoonosis website the new Zoonosis landing page to get some of that content out I'd like to see if Ian's online Ian are you there yeah hi Ector Ian I wanted to find out what are some of the opportunities that we have in one health and what are some of the gaps that that that you foresee okay thanks Ector so I think you know it is really well placed Delia has mentioned some of the areas that it is working on zoonotic diseases both the endemic and and the emerging diseases food safety AMR and so on and you know we have a lot of capacity and already to tackle those sorts of issues from a one health perspective and we're also fortunate as well as having the kind of those those technical areas of expertise that we've got within the same organization expertise on ecosystem health on climate change in particular on economics including economics of animal health trade and we've got one of the strongest gender teams in the CGI so I think there's a huge opportunity to bring to bear these different disciplines in a one health program I'm not sure we're really taking advantage of that interdisciplinarity that that Delia mentioned we've got to work harder to bring all those together but let me throw out a bigger vision I've got a bigger vision for this if you look at the challenges around one health there are technical issues but many of them are institutional and I was based in India I was asked to be part of the advisory committee of an initiative on zoonotic diseases led by the public health foundation of India and I said to them well why are you asking me I'm not a vet I'm not a medic I'm not an environmental scientist and the answer was that's exactly why we want you to be on the advisory committee because many of the challenges are institutional not necessarily technical and they were my role as being kind of independent of the three communities as it were was to help bring those communities together and help this program build those three communities together so I think we have an opportunity a huge opportunity to think about the institutional issues and I have a big vision for a truly one health center serving low and middle income countries that really bring these communities together a multi-institutional multinational organization bringing together ill-ray but bringing together strong public health partners strong environmental environment and environmental health initiatives and partners and Kenya would be a fantastic location for such a truly international center the new center for disease control in Africa is going to be based in Nairobi the Chinese government has pledged money to build it there are strong national potential partners in in in in Kenya so I think we should think big think about how could we really have a truly multi international a multi-institutional international one health center based here in Kenya with ill-ray being one member of that consortium let's think about that thanks Ekta Ian thank you so much that's really bold and ambitious and I like the way we're dreaming big hopefully we can make that happen line detail you there yes I'm there I think we have to keep in mind that there are more than 800 000 mammalian and virus birds bird viruses around and that pose a potential risk to humans that means pandemics come and go but they're coming and they will coming in a higher frequency as in the past and as you all know and to address health crisis a holistic approach and interdisciplinary cooperation including human health veterinary medicine but also environmental and social sciences needed it was saved before but if I look at our one health activities the two last ones so the social science and the environmental we have still again we are doing that a little bit of that but we have to intensify our activities in here and we are also asked by some of the donors how it really can include better experts from the human health site and you just remember Bill Gates when he said in February in any crisis leaders have two equally important responsibilities solve the immediate problem and keep it from happening again and the second has the crucial long-term consequences and that should be also a focus in future of our one health initiatives we have there are many activities going on in very new technologies for point of care diagnostics rapid vaccine technologies so we are soon much better prepared to come up with new vaccines as we do today but very important but we also have to intensify in our current activities is the surveillance looking at symptoms because surveillance is one of the most important aspects of public health systems and survive this data drive our action and inform our decision and inform us of potential threats to the health of animals and humans and this should be linked to data management that's also an area where we currently are not good and they have to intensify so that's my view for the future of one health initiatives and for sure now is the best time to scale in this one health initiatives by widening the scope of our work and by extending regionally thank you sorry I have one more question for you do you feel like we're very you know when everyone thinks of a epidemic or a pandemic everyone comes to the science and looks at the bioscience do you believe that we as an institute are representing the integrated science more clearly in terms of climate change policies gender or do we need to do more on that over yeah absolutely that's what I say this is somehow a gap we're doing that but not in in a scope we should do it but there are ideas and there are first project proposals written so this is something you know using all the activities in ilry should support the one health centers or one health initiatives we have and then something we sometimes miss it including all the programs and not just working with one or two programs yeah all right thank you so much dita jimmy can we close with any sort of closing remarks in terms of what's the one message that we take away with one health and what does ilry's future look like going as a in one health thank you actor and thanks to all for those excellent contributions to this discussion I am encouraged by what everyone said it's an opportunity to take advantage of this crisis and to strengthen our work in this area and as ian said think big and bold I come to this based on my previous life I had to be leading the bank's work at the world bank's work when there was a real panic about avian influenza and what that could do to the world and there were some projections there that if we had a really serious pandemic the world's economy could contract by three percent well this is much bigger europe alone will contract by 15 so I have been on this issue of one health for some time because that was the recommendation the way to control pandemics was to deal with to have a one health approach we did lots of calculations about cost benefit 17 billion a year with returns of over 100 billion but even offered ways to fund it by taxing exports of meat and so on after the pandemic had passed no one bothered so we have to be waited until this opportunity and now we have an opportunity to represent the importance of this I was criticized at the time for we created a billion dollar fund at the bank for the pandemic preparedness and people criticized why were we focusing on pandemic why were you spending this amount of money on pandemics this is really for the developed world and so on now we see that pandemics is not only about rich people or rich countries in every facet of this crisis we're in the poor has suffered more lost their jobs first no markets to sell their produce we're going to do distance learning poor people don't have connectivity the poor have suffered so working in pandemics is not a loss to working on epidemics or diseases which are more common that we like malaria brucellosis and others like that so I am encouraged by what data said what Ian said and what all the speakers said about the opportunity to strengthen our work in one health and really become a serious player not only in the areas we've been working on the endemic diseases but diseases with pandemic potential as well the challenge there they tell me is surveillance how do you surveil for unknown things but we have smart people here and I know we can make a big contribution working with partners to how we might deal with the issue of trying to prevent future pandemics this is a good area for us to work on hopefully there will be some attention to come on this and we're well prepared we're well teed up as Ian said it's not just the technical aspects but the institutional aspects as well and we're in a good position to to do both and we have a strong foundation which have been built by Eric and Delia and Bernard and all whom and all of those who've spoken so thank you very much for this I hope Illry as a whole and of course our CG partners online have gotten a better understanding about what is one health what are pandemics how can we as a CGIR work to prevent and control them


Hey guys Matt Beck free salon education calm and one of the most important things you can do before your client leaves The salon is get their email address. The reason for this is that we're trying to use Facebook and social media and all that to Communicate with our clients, which is a great thing. There's nothing wrong with it I think that we've had a lot of success with social media But the more popular social media gets the harder it is to actually reach the people that you're looking for Without paying the price for it So what I would recommend is get your guests email address Then you're in control of sending them your email specials or a note to them or their Appointment reminders all of those things we talked about before If you're not that great at this then we use things like demand force which I'm going to show you guys in a second But I think the most important thing for you to do is collect that email address and like I was saying before with social media I make a post Facebook or Instagram or all these companies they decide who which one of my customers is going to see it And then if I pay a little bit more money then More customers are going to see it, but we don't really know who those customers are So if you really want to reach your client base get their email address now Let's spin around take a look at demand force. I want to show you something that they help me with and in my salon And what we're doing So here we go. I'm going to pull up Demand force is website. So we have this is our salon gratitude Demand force dashboard. So you can see here. We've talked about it before a couple things that I really love about this is Right here is some of the most recent web reviews from demand force they really help they send out emails to our customers after they leave and Ask them to review this line and these reviews go right to our salon website and to Google So it's really an important key thing in running a successful business is to have great reviews on your website Now we go to email There's a lot of services out there that you can use that Sometimes you get a little bit complicated I know as a business this is so much easier because this goes through all the emails that have been sent out Through demand force to our customers. How is your experience at salon gratitude confirmation emails? And they take care of all this stuff. I don't even have to look at this Then if you click on the campaigns section the great thing about this is it's already got pre done Campaigns which we talked about in the past. There's a video that I show you how to send out an email But I think the most important thing is collect those email addresses because that's the way that you're gonna be able to communicate with your guests So definitely check out demand force if you want it's demand force comm slash free salon education Someone will get in touch with you show you what it's all about before you even purchase it. It's a it's a monthly fee It's an easy thing to do. So if you like what you're seeing check it out But most importantly again get those client email addresses so that you can communicate with your guests Thank you guys so much, and we'll see you guys on the next video. Thanks


e to research it they're always changing I don't know we're happy to do whatever the board would like us to do in the end but you can appreciate that having to curbing around every bit of landscaping you put on a site seems to be extreme it's our job to uphold the regulations I'm more concerned but the fact that you're basically creating a park a building park so you have a parking lot directly on the other side that does not have curbs and you're going to put it as part of the same common island and you have curbs on one side not that it's a concern per se but it's more of like it doesn't make sense to me but if we don't have the authority to wave it I don't think we do we do either trust me we had many a meeting where we discussed should and shall to the point where we had legal opinion and to give us direction and shall is not something we can wave unless there is a specific reason that gives us the authority to can you pitch the driveway the other way regrade the whole site so it goes in there but it's cheaper than curbing I think you have to curb it not a problem we can we can do that all the sarcastic that storm water is going to the same place anyway I'm sorry Marlon there's a ditch there and the storm water you're going into catch basin to there or to the ditch into the same place so anyway it's not like a sarcastic comment but it actually would work okay item five staff recommends the board accept the applicants that's okay applicants propose spacing as it meets the goal of this criteria to provide shade and reduce glare by supporting healthier trees Marlon knows that we've spoken with the city arborist Craig Lambert with regards to swapping out some species of trees we've implemented some accolade alms that he wanted to see so late this afternoon I sent a revised another revised plan to Marlon operating those the accolade alms that Craig wanted to see so that's not a problem item six however is another item and I'm not sure that the board can help me with this or not staff recommends the board require the applicant to provide the required minimum landscape value in trees and shrubs keep that comment in mind trees and shrubs staff recommends the board accept the site pavers and landscape walls as contributing towards the minimum landscape value the undeveloped portion of the site is relatively well developed though staff considers additional trees to screen the parking area from the interstate as described in section 13.06-7 may present an opportunity to make up the required landscape value so as noted above we have an excess of $80,000 worth of landscaping budget items good portion of that if we can go to the landscaping plan Marlon that would be great is the open space parks that we wanted to create we've got a nice seating area right north of the front entrance right there no that's a transformer sorry you might be able to sit on it but right down from that right there you got it right, thank you so that's a some nice benches nicely landscaped pavers, trees, perennials a nice rock wall ornamental grasses and what I'm being told is that the perennials and ornamental grasses do not count towards my landscaping budget I've spoken with Craig Lambert he has prepared a letter for me saying and I've sent this on to Marla that he's revisited the landscaping plan and thinks the use of the perennials and ornamental grasses would provide a nice accent to the landscape plan since it is such a small portion of the overall landscape expenditure I think it should be included as part of your landscape budget so if it was not accepted that we can include about $4,000 of perennials and ornamental grasses those will be removed and I'm not going to go over $80,000 that's a big budget as it is so that really is a detriment to this lovely seeding area and we'll just add $4,000 with the trees but again if you look at the landscape plan there's a lot of trees that we planted out there I'm a big fan of ornamental grasses and perennials so what's the rationale for not including them I think the rationale is that in the wintertime those grasses and those perennial flowers are not visible they don't do anything whereas shrubs and trees are there in the wintertime and provide some landscaping so that's the reason plus to my knowledge the board has not ever approved perennials and grasses to count towards the landscaping requirement most of the shrubs can be put in so under landscaping requirements paragraph A so it says landscaping shall include a variety of trees, shrubs, grasses and perennials if these perennials are in bloom or they weren't leafed out or functioning as a ground cover during the winter would that allow us to include them I don't think so we never have approved that I mean one could argue that lawn is ground cover and no one has ever asked have we ever approved a lawn the cost of putting in a lawn to count towards their minimum landscaping requirement soil of anything but an item like this was approved for a recent project we had Barlow Brook apartments we had an extensive amount of perennials and ornamental grasses there and Craig Lambert also felt that those should be counted towards the landscape budget and the DRB approved it I did the look at the landscape plan Brian I'm sorry to me if there's any way they can be considered ground cover I'd be in favor of that and I would agree with that which is I don't really know what a seed is or the ground in the winter though I could I mean I would argue ornamental grasses often are left up over winter to get that nice sort of brush look or you cut them down in the fall one of the two I would also argue that often times ornamental grasses are more annuals than perennials in Vermont from the amount I have to replace every year anybody seeing the Barlow Brook project yeah no I I think it would be a nice accent to this location and it would be a shame that you're not going to add $4,000 more of trees elsewhere you'll just get rid of them here and put the 4,000 trees somewhere else there are certain perennials though that do function as ground cover could they be substituted for what's in the landscape budget yes I would get rid of the grasses though I would I'll go whichever way the board does I don't feel that strongly about it but I think whatever mix they've planned I have a slight bias because as Bob knows I'm a big fan of something they did down the street I would trust their plan as a mix if we can allow it at all I wouldn't try to dictate perennials versus grass as I just let them do it but how much does the board value that precedent versus that's all it's a big deal for the board to change precedent like this so except it sounds like we've already established precedent but did we establish it erroneously in going against regulations and just kind of so it looks pretty I think the only downside is the more often you do this the more requests you're going to get in the future and you're going to keep pointing out all these different projects where you prove all these perennials I guess the other question is is the site adequate landscaped already without these and therefore because we've had issues where we've said you're just trying to find a place to throw the extra landscaping budget I try to give an accurate value of the project I always do we have to do it through all of our state permits anyways so I try and give an accurate value and this is where we come out with the landscape budget it's a big number as Marla knows we were actually fighting for a while that trees were too close together so I don't see the problem of having to do it over and over again as a problem I mean if it works and the value is there it's not like he's saying we want to do it to knock off a few bucks they're just spending the money and ground cover has value beyond just the aesthetics it protects soil from eroding it stops weeds from infiltrating a lot of the species I've seen stay green during the winter maybe the planning commission should consider an amendment and maybe they would put a percentage maximum percentage of 10% of some number in perennials and grasses the idea that not allowing ornamental grasses and perennials is part of the landscaping budget for an overall project if you don't allow them they're not going to go in and that's removing the diversity of the landscaping plan that we see here if you sort of say we're going to draw a line in the sand and say nope, can't do it we're going to lose that we're just going to get a few more trees and shrubs someone's going to come in and want to do 100% perennials and grasses that's why you should would it be fair to say summarizing this criteria for the decision that in this case because the site on an overall basis is well landscaped with a mix of woody vegetation and perennials and grasses just because that way we're careful to avoid saying they can do it and we're not setting up precedent for future projects I think we should throw it out to the planning commission that they should change the regulations to allow us to look at it to have a percentage mix you're right, we don't want to see an entire site that has no trees and shrubs or anything because they've done all perennials and ornamented grasses good, I like that moving on to number 7 7, staff recommends the board require the applicant to resolve the issues identified above prior to closing the hearing the above is pursuant to an email we received from David Wheeler with the city stormwater division I guess I'd like to start out by asking a question and I'm not sure that the board knows the answer to this I'm not even sure that staff knows the answer and that is are the city's stormwater regulations more stringent than the state's stormwater regulations? significant difference in that the state regulations require 12 or 24 hour detention of the one year storm while the city's requirements require peak flow attenuation of the one year storm I don't know what that means it's just the standard is different for the one year storm otherwise the standard is the same well I don't know if the board has had an opportunity to read the items that were identified here by Mr. Wheeler but item number one states that he understands that we need state stormwater permits which we do operational stormwater permit construction general permit from the state of Vermont as the board probably realizes those are extensive they're big permits and they require a lot of time and a lot of effort from my office and our engineers so when the city's stormwater department turns around and asks me for literally the same information that I am preparing for the state I get a little aggravated but nevertheless I think our engineer made a yeoman's effort to prepare the documents in excess of 120 pages worth of documents and support were then sent to David Wheeler answering the questions that he had here I have not heard back from David the information was just sent to him so I'm just stating the fact we're complying with all of his questions everyone we've responded to with this package so I guess in the end I don't have a problem I shouldn't say I do have a problem but I'm responding anyways there's no reason we can't approve this with a criteria that Pizzi Galli will go and get their state stormwater permit can't close without resolution I don't see why that's the case it doesn't seem I'm no expert on this questions would revise the plan that the plan is probably going to look the same it seems like providing information to confirm can we ask Bob that question what was the result of answering these questions is it basically like we need all these things and we don't need to change anything on the plan I think David's biggest concern was are you trying to do infiltration we can't do infiltration because of the high water table conditions so we're utilizing the ponds and that's all the information that we've given him so nothing's changing I'd like to go back to John's suggestion which makes a lot of sense it seems to me that the only reason for the existence of the city regulation is that the city has decided that it's going to regulate if impervious exceeds half an acre as opposed to the state standard of one acre otherwise it's substantially the same standards therefore it would seem to me that we could conclude that satisfying the state we could deem this provision satisfied by satisfaction of the state standard by getting the state permit so compliance with the state standards because that one standard is different does not necessarily represent compliance with the city standards in all cases what is the significance what is the difference during the one I'm struggling because I want to make sure I explain this in a way that members of the board are going to understand it I spent a lot like nine years of my life studying this stuff you've got a one year storm you've got a one year storm and you either want to make sure it comes out slowly which is the state standard or that the peak rate is no higher than existing conditions so you either want to detain it for basically keeping the flow consistent in the stream or you want to detain it so that you don't have a big flush that erodes the stream well but if you unless I misunderstand if you meet the former standard haven't you episode facto met the latter standard I have designed sites that have met one but not the other yeah but which in other words if it meets the state standard which is going slow doesn't it automatically meet the peak flow standard no it had a low peak flow you can you can sort of massage the state standard to allow a very short duration and a long average which would not meet the city standards so but would that okay then let's but what the applicant is saying is that they do meet both in this case and it's not a problem okay so but from our standpoint we could say the applicant shall demonstrate that he meets the peak flow standards of the city regulations and shall produce a state permit and under those circumstances the requirement will be satisfied no I guess I would be concerned about that if in order to do that they had to change the plan because the board approves the plan but in this case it sounds like they don't need to change the plan I'm talking about this case and then I agree with you I work for you that's fine okay number eight staff recommends the board require the applicant to update the bicycle parking to meet short and long term requirements including spacing and security requirements of section 13.14 the model could go to the additional detail attachment there so we were short on our number of bike racks there they are interior so for a new building there's a long term storage requirement as well typically applicants choose to meet it on an interior space but you don't have to okay so where are you going to meet your long term requirements requirements outside is unacceptable so there's different standards for interior and exterior on the revised things you have four and two so you have your six short term parking spaces or you have six you have 12 short term parking spaces there's also six long term parking spaces required so where are those met could you go back to the plan model no no back to the detail you simply want us to identify one of those areas of bike racks as long term so okay no the requirement describing the staff comments is 11 short term spaces and six long term spaces what I see on that plan is 12 short term spaces so what's the total you're looking for Marla 11 short term plus six long term 17 so the requirements for the long term are slightly different than the requirements for the short term there are three options I think at least in the regulations I can read them for non residential buildings this is for long term storage secure storage in bicycle locker bicycle storage room or enclosure that protects entire bicycle including components and accessories against theft and weather where indicated in table 1311 closed locker shall be lockable with following dimensions secure office space may account for up to 50% of the required indoor parking areas and lockers and shower and changing facilities dependent on the number of bicycles required to be stored as indicated in table 1310 so that's kind of the description of long term storage for non residential buildings we need six long term storage that right Marla yes an 11 short term it's all internal to the building just needs to provide the information that's what I had asked so it is an internal thing the requirement is that you have internal secured parking it could be like a shed other people have done like a shed or lockers or something but yes most people choose to do it internal wouldn't do that not for this building nobody wants to see a shed out here nobody wants to see lean to or anything on the side of this you know $7 million building we will put six long term secured parking spaces for bikes inside the building and what you have now on this plan that meets the short term requirements that's good there so you just want a commitment from me because I can't really show it on a site plan we will have six long term internal secured parking spaces so commit excuse me Marla what's a long term bicycle space as opposed to a short term so may I just read the description of the long term bicycle space what the criteria are read it again I don't think that it's defined as the duration is defined as how the bicycles are stored I didn't write it overnight I don't think they define what long term is it's defined by how the bicycles are stored exactly secure storage in a room or enclosure it protects the bicycles including components and accessories against theft and weather so you could park at the long term lot at the airport for an hour and it's still a long term lot you could put your bike in the long term bicycle storage for an hour and it's still a long term bicycle storage space I understand what you're saying number nine Bill is that acceptable thank you number nine does the board adopt this criteria as a condition of approval that is with regards to the Marla I'm hoping you can identify for me on the site plan of which light pole you are specifically referencing I wasn't able to find the material for the poles anywhere on the plan well I'm happy to commit that it will reflect a powder coat finish with an aluminum pole if that's acceptable that's not a problem do you want to commit to that as a condition yes sure we'll have to do that that's what they are great and then you've got your staff recommended the board require the applicant to relocate this pole from compliance with the criteria and that's the one I guess I was hoping you could show me which pole you're referring to because if it's the one I think it is that's about 15 feet off the driveway I'm not really sure it's in danger of being hit but that one's fine if it goes out to the road all the way so we can pan up a little bit yep so oh too far does it show I think you have to go to sheet one of the application package there's one on the curve oh too far let me just zoom in on my screen here so that's the standard is about the outside of a curve that's you're right there's not a curve right there that's on the other side of the sidewalk 13 feet off the road but what I can do is I can put that on a higher concrete base show them the detail that I sent to you so the applicant had two light pole types one that was on two foot base around these leaves and landscape areas I guess light pole base you know if the board doesn't feel like it's if the board feels like the standard isn't that thing that it's not you know location where vehicles may make sharp turns then we don't have to have them change anything there's a shell and there's a show there there's shall not be where vehicles make sharp turns so there's no discussion of that but should not be located where they might be susceptible to collision strikes so there is judgment that we can exercise in that regard well and in the definition of sharp yeah this is not a sharp turn this is barely a turn where's this? right here it's right there it's I don't know 15 degree turn or something like I said we can put it up on the image to the right that I showed you there instead of being flush we'll just have it stick up two feet that's it for me, you guys good? everybody okay? okay number 11? that's it there is no number 11 two foot base that's it comments questions from the board? hearing none, comments questions from the public yes please I just wanted to ask a question about the property and I think this is a galley home and what is the building that is going to be built and what is the building going to be built for? we'll have this building if you can ask the rest of the questions I'd like you to respond to the building the building would be owned by Petsigalli properties and currently the building is proposed to be occupied by the University of Vermont Medical Center and we're not sure of the uses yet we do not have the users have not been identified sorry you don't have any construction footprint or anything like that because you don't know what's going to be built for you is that correct? that's correct so you don't know what's going to be built do you know when the construction is going to start? ideally next spring spring of 2019 and when is it predicted to be finished? probably spring of 2020 so a year later yeah and so is UDMC going to be leasing this property or excuse me this is not building or have they purchased it? as I mentioned Petsigalli properties is the property owner Petsigalli properties will own the building okay so then UMMC will be leasing it then is that correct? I think I should be addressing the board sorry please identify yourself I'm sorry through the camera Diane Zeller I'm a resident in South Burlington great thank you very much and so if you're going to be starting a building in less than a year why don't you know what's going in there so in order to construct what to construct inside a building is that the purview of this board? do we have a we don't have the authority to require that of the applicant we approve a use and he's proposing a medical office use we don't review or require an applicant to say who's going to be you know leasing it occupying it he's building a building and he's identified as medical use we review an application against the requirements of a medical office use you know who would want to find that information out from them? not typically public but we will be filing just FYI we will be filing for the fit up permits for what permits I'm sorry the space up to fit the space up fit up that requires another building permit from the city okay so any more comments from the public on this item? hearing none is there a motion to close? that we close preliminary final plan application SD1819 if it's a galley property we'll see second in favor say aye thank you very much thank you very much last item on the agenda second third last continuous guest application SD18-16 of RL valley incorporated to demolish an existing hotel and a portion of existing service station and create a planned unit development consisting of expanded service station with four additional fueling stations for a total of 12 and associated 9,000 4-foot retail sales building 793 and 907 Shelburne Road who is here for the applicant? can I interrupt for a second? sorry I didn't think of this earlier but since the minutes take like one minute do we want to do the minutes so Brian can just leave? oh yes thank you I mean I know it's my first meeting I've been here with I would never have asked for that but since you offered Brian a good beer and come back there may be a law about open containers no we're the law here we're the law on these parts okay so we all have chance to review the minutes of June 19th, 2018 anyone have any corrections? I move that we approve the minutes of June 19th, 2018 moving second we'll keep the message June 18th, 2018 all in favor say aye thank you enjoy thank you well thank you again Marla board members for your consideration do we close any items that we're going to deliberate on afters? we don't have any drafts no other excuses to keep you're trying real hard it's hard alright so this is a continuation of June 5th, 2018 with the sketch plan application so we have continued to allow the applicant to address some of the concerns discussed in the staff comments so I'm John Anderson and I guess I've been elected as the primary spokesperson with me is Skip Balli who is are you the president and CEO? CEO, yes and Chris Gallapo who is the project engineer I will try given especially given the hour I will try to not repeat where we got to at the last meeting we were here about a month ago I think we stated as a goal at that time and I will restate that goal but the purpose we appreciate hearing us for sketch plan the purpose is that there are many issues that can be resolved or not without addressing traffic the if we if the management of RL Valley it would like to be have some level of comfort that we can address all of the issues except traffic before the RL Valley makes the sizeable investment that's going to be necessary to address the traffic issue and so we are trying to use this process for that purpose and so I think we got many of the issues we you know Skip's brother Tim was here the last time Skip's here now they'll either get a level of comfort or not as most of the issues at the last meeting the so I will simply focus on the open issues I think the what we think are the open issues if other people have open issues great but we think that one of the open issues was the amount of pervious or open space that will be needed we have gone back and submitted to you a plan at the last meeting we discussed gee we think that the technical requirement is that we have a certain amount of pervious surface or impervious surface pervious surface 30% we think we can achieve that with pervious pavers but I think the board said no we also we believe that there is a requirement for open space so we went back and we have submitted a plan that has 30% open space that plan I should point out does not include some of the open space that shown would not be technically described as being pervious because it underneath some of that space is a gas tank but to the extent that so if you require us to have 30% open space here's how we would do it if you require us to have 30% pervious surface we would do it in another way and that would be that we would have what showing is sort of gray on there would be would be pervious pavers if you require us to do both then we would then we would address both issues but in any event we think we can address we have another issue that was raised was how do you deal with the issue of parking between the building and the street and you also wanted to see what a building would look like and I think you wanted us to show you a good looking building we have this is an architect design one of a kind building we think it would be a good looking building in addition we believe that we have brought out the front of the building so that parking that would otherwise be between the building and the street is within the building a building in south burlington is defined as a structure that has a roof and columns for support and so we believe that the large that we have out front is a building and the parking spaces are behind the front of that building we have arrow valley spends a lot of time figuring out how to put a site together it is not easy in some cases I'm familiar with cases where we've looked at these 50 different designs for a site before we were able to settle on a design that worked arrow valley has has looked at this they've tried to figure out how to address the many competing concerns to build a to build this site and we think the building is where it needs to be we don't think that there's another way to locate the building so that without creating other problems that I cited in the cover letter that we provided to you we've also provided the we've provided a number of elevations for the proposed building you want to see what the building would look like we provided the elevations and in addition there is some discussion about whether we would what we need to do to comply with the PUD requirements so far we are trying to preserve the option of having a PUD application when the time comes but and so we are we believe that we satisfy the conditions for PUD approval that are stated in the ordinance there is some question though as to whether we must also satisfy the purpose section of the ordinance even though the purpose section is not stated as one of the tests that you apply in determining whether we get PUD approval and the that purpose section outlines a number of you know is it creative use of the land we think it's creative and we think it satisfies the purpose section as well but regardless of whether it satisfies the purpose section we don't think we need to satisfy the purpose section we believe that we can satisfy the specific criteria that we have to satisfy in order for PUD to be approved so that is our summary of where we are oh yeah we also we originally we showed a building we contemplated a building that would have two floors and the bottom floor would be built to be useful we still need to build the structure the structure is in effect serving as a retaining wall almost there is about a story of difference between the back of the site and the front of the site but we have no we're not suggesting that we would that it would be anything but an unfinished cellar at this point and we frankly we don't have enough space on the site to provide parking if we were to finish the cellar so we can stay within the coverage ratio so we recognize that reality and just said we'll give up on the plan for the possibility of having something on the lower level everything? okay so that's our summary you know I didn't want to repeat what we said before I hope I was brief and concise and not confusing because Frank's looking at me well I'm looking at you because I don't agree with your definition of a building I think it's just not correct second sentence of the definition of building in the regulation says the connection of two buildings by means of an open porch, breezeway, passageway, carport or other such open structure with or without a roof shall not be deemed to make them one building, building shall be a building etc to me if you read the entire definition the clear intent is that an open structure is not a building you've got a carport it's not part of the building well the definition of building the first sentence is a structure having a roof supported by columns or walls a structure of persons, animals or equipment, goods or materials of any kind right which is why I read the second sentence I've been taught that you read the whole thing the only way to reconcile the first sentence with the second sentence is to infer that a building is enclosed well I would disagree with you I think the second sentence says that if you have a bridgeway in between you still have two buildings it says a breezeway or a carport in other words a thing with a roof and supports is not a building you know how is the carport between two buildings any different than the carport in front of the building what you have is a carport I think in the particular instance of something that stretches between two buildings this says that does not make it one building I think the ability has to be enclosed when you read the definition in its entirety we may disagree and if we I will also say that there is a second way to approve the design and that is that you can approve the design by allowing us by recognizing that we have a utility easement a huge utility easement that applies to that particular site and only that particular site it's the Champlain Water District easement and second of all the huge difference in height between the back of the site and the front of the site we believe that those two there are two ways to approve the building the way we've proposed it one is the way we stated that we think that's a building the other is to recognize that we have that this site is a funny site and with the a special site with the easement, the water easement and also the huge difference in height therefore to waive the requirement which is a discretionary matter so CVS is our point to you know we have that thing that we allowed to be considered a building on the side you know which is basically a kind of canopy you know I wish private margins were clearly not what I thought they were in the pharmaceutical business I thought they would have kept that green space there in an immaculate shape but it ain't there yeah it's a little bit of a disgrace on television I said that good so there is a precedent for some kind of open structure being used as a building because we allowed that to be the structure behind which parking occurred so this is not exactly that you know it is just kind of a stick out over the front of the building but so I think there is legitimate disagreement on that so I'm happy to allow that I just want to add there is a definition of building coverage which would support I think Frank's position that the covered porch does not consider building building coverage requires it to have exterior walls so building coverage is the ratio of the horizontal area measured from the exterior surface of the exterior walls of the ground floor of all principal and accessory buildings so this one porch does not have an exterior wall if it would not count towards building coverage so if it's not building coverage is it a building so again to the CVS experiment you know so we allowed that to go so Camel's nose is a little bit inside the tent so there will be a disagreement on this well there is a difference between columns and brick and it is not parked underneath it is intended to act as a building to be in front of the parking this is the parking is still clearly visible from the front you know I think you can see past the my daughter and I laugh about this all the time with the CVS thing because you can clearly see the parking through it but the concept is there the structure was built it does dissipate the view through it and that was the intent this does not do any of that and how you get around it listen I don't agree with this rule I don't agree with the LDRs related to this but this is the LDRs and it's a shall not of may you can't park in the front of the buildings if I could also just comment the building coverage has that specific definition if you go down to building footprint that's the area of land physically occupied by a building on the ground including any deck, porch or other apartment structure attached to the building surely attached to the land in order to be a footprint excuse me? surely attached to the land in order to be a footprint including any deck, porch or other apartment structure attached to the building that can't just be that can't just be a projecting roof to be a footprint but look I don't want to get into an argument with you because ultimately you're at the judge right so there's another way to approve this if you I think it works under either one all we want to do is make it work under one either one if it doesn't then there's a possibility that there will be no project now we had six concerns, six categories of concerns in the June 5th DRB item overall site coverage I think you've addressed that nonconformity is one that I think we need to cover traffic we want to put aside until we get through this relationship to comprehensive plan parking and applicability of PUD designation and you have dealt with that and we're open to discussing that nonconformity is the one and parking is the one we were just talking about so nonconformity is the one that I think is still a problem I think that that's the one where you should walk through the logic again because we have a disagreement over whether it's an expansion of an existing use which is going from 8 to 12 stations or whether it is a conversion of a use from the motel to a convenience store retail set so we had a philosophical difference and I don't know how technical it is but there's that difference in nonconformity and I think that's one that we have it resolved I understand that the nonconformity issue arises with respect to the gas station property and we believe that on that today the entirety of that property is used as a gas station or whatever the service station gas station not the motel the grocery store that we're going to put in is a conforming use it's the lot it's the lot where the gas station is the gas station is not a nonconforming use we believe that the entirety of that lot is used for a gas station so the entirety of the lot is nonconforming we are proposing to continue to use the entirety of the lot as a nonconforming use there is a question though as to whether or not we can have a structure that serves a nonconforming use on the property and we pointed out that we are reducing the amount of structure that is nonconforming and but in addition as I recall there was an allowance and I apologize I don't have the specifics but I think it was a dollar figure that we could invest in the additional how much we could add to the nonconforming structure and I think it was in the range of $100,000 and we came to the conclusion $125,000 we came to the conclusion that what we're adding as well within that amount of money so there are two nonconforming uses one is the area of land we're not changing that in any way, shape or form the other is can we move structures around we think we've got $125,000 limit on that and we're well within that that's part of the issue if you want to talk about the definition so we can I can talk about it or you can talk about it the other part of the issue is the nonconforming use as opposed to the nonconforming structure I just don't want to let that one is nonconforming use one is nonconforming structure we think the entirety of the use is nonconforming today and it will be nonconforming when we're under our proposal there was a discussion as to whether the amount of car repairs the type of car repairs that are being done is so sensitive that this is not a gas station service station but a car repair place I had interviewed Skip Hochmer in preparation for the last hearing I reported what he said you don't have to rely on what I reported he's here tonight I think if you're welcome to ask him but he simply confirmed we met before the meeting he confirmed that the any all of the car repairs that are done on site are minor car repairs of a type that are fall into the service station use not major repairs that fall into the car repair use and I hope I've got the definitions the names right I may not have them exactly right but I think I got them and then the other portion of it was there's a prohibition in the standards on the building or the use on expanding a non-conforming building or use so if they're proposing to expand a non-conforming use that is expressly prohibited our position that was discussed at the last hearing is expanding from 8 pumps to 12 pumps was an expansion sorry not pumps fueling stations right from 8 fueling positions to 12 fueling positions was an expansion of a non-conforming use what we pointed out was that every indicia of of how you measure whether something is being whether the use is being expanded or not go to square footage and the area of land or building that are being considered they do not go to the amount of traffic that might be generated and if you start looking at traffic that might be generated then you're as to whether that's a change of use then you get into all kinds of gradations as to there are different traffic numbers that are generated according to the ITE depending on what kind of office you have or what kind of store you have so if you get into issues about whether you're changing the use based on traffic generation then you will I've never seen traffic generation use to define whether or not you're changing the use I've seen it used to define how you address traffic generation but I've never seen it used to define whether you're changing the use you might have a store a commercial store depending on what you use the commercial store for you may have different traffic numbers but I've never seen people say well because you have different traffic numbers for one kind of store one that sells sneakers one that sells groceries therefore that's a difference in use and I don't think that's in your ordinance there is no indicia of traffic generation if you look at the things that are used to measure changes of use in your ordinance they do not go to amounts of traffic generation so sticking strictly with square footage so the argument that I heard last time was that even though we're expanding the square footage by expanding the number of fueling stations from 8 to 12 that because the convenience store is not part of that that we were actually and we were demolishing the building that is the so we're actually decreasing the square footage devoted to the nonconforming use that I think was the argument we are decreasing the amount of structure the square footage of the structure that is being devoted to the nonconforming use yes right so a few moments ago I thought I heard you say and I perhaps out of context or something I thought you were saying that the whole thing is being looked at as a service station convenience store plus fueling stations it's just a service station so that would argue against and so maybe I misheard that maybe it's out of context and maybe having maybe I heard in a different context I'm trying to conflate the two and it doesn't work but anyway that would argue that this is in fact an expansion of a nonconforming use because the square footage I apologize if I wasn't clear I this is I'm reaching back a month so I may not have the terms exactly right but there's a service station use the service station use includes the possibility of selling convenience items a small amount of convenience items on the site Mr. Hockmer has sold a small amount of convenience items on the site but we think that the amount he has sold is so small that it is a service station use in addition he has done car repairs on the site but again a service station use allows you to do minor car repairs if you know changing the battery doing doing inspections those various things we think that what he's been doing also qualifies as a service station use so we believe that the entirety of that law has been used as a service station use and we would propose to keep using that as a service not the motel and now the motel the motel is going to be a grocery store use convenience store a grocery store a retail store includes convenience store but we don't have we're not selling convenience items on the gas station law but you are selling fuel and you're going to take cash at times right there is a we're going to take cash yes there's also an office use where to do the service station we need the convenience store building and the convenience store building is there's also an allowed service in this area which is an office use and so the convenience store building will serve as as an office if you if you think about it we have you're trying to stretch stretch stretch stretch I get that but you're up against a wall here in so many ways I'm trying to interpret the ordinance as it's written the best possible light for you I get that I'm having a hard time getting there you want us to kind of ignore the obvious if this is a retail store let's suppose a hypothetical that we had a retail store that was a nonconforming use and it was a thousand square feet and it was a nonconforming use hypothetically and you wanted to add 200 square feet that would be an expansion of a nonconforming use here what you're doing accepting your argument about you know hypothetically or for the sake of the argument about the nature of the building what you're doing here is selling gasoline out of what four pumps and now you want to sell gasoline out of eight pumps that's the primary function of this site you're expanding the use under any common sense understanding of what it means what language means we're not we're changing the I don't care about the building I'm trying to focus on really what's going on we're changing the product mix okay the product mix has today has gasoline sales and it has car repair minor car repairs when we the product mix occupies 100% of the site when we go forward if we go forward then the product mix will be more gasoline sales and it will be less car repair but that those those two things still qualify as a service station use we're simply changing the product mix it's an expanded service station use yeah I mean you're expanding your non-conforming use the area of the non-conforming use you're going from eight fueling stations to 12 without saying you're not expanding your non-conforming use because I'm not expanding the area he's demolishing a smaller building and building a much larger building so you're expanding your fueling stations expanding your I'm demolishing a building and building a canopy right adding to the canopy an area that is smaller than the building right but you're also constructing a 4500 square foot facility in support of that non-conforming use I'm constructing a conforming use on another you're selling gas out of that conforming use I'm taking money for the sale of gas out of that conforming use you can't exist without the other I mean that's why I asked whether you're taking cash at the fueling station I think if you weren't taking cash at the fueling station there might be an argument for this there are two separate projects but there's so folks I'm running out of gas here I apologize for being old but that's what it is 11 o'clock let's continue this September 4th so basically this is you're running into resistance and so we're going to have to talk through this a lot to figure this out very hard for us to accept at 11 o'clock I've been on public boards it's a hell of a time to try to do business I apologize not at all we think it's a good project can we just kind of provide a little summary of where we are okay so it sounds to me like the board is down on the porch thing meeting the standard not okay with not okay with the porch thing meeting the standard not okay with the utility easement precluding the parking in the rear so we're still not there I'm building we're definitely not there on non-conformity obviously traffic is an issue we all agreed to table you know it sounds like the general sense of the board is this project doesn't have a leg to stand on with respect I think that what the chairman is saying is that 11 o'clock at night is a bad time to make a decision I think you're trying to summarize that to make a decision and my experience is that it's worthwhile coming back and talking about these things we can do that I don't want to waste your time in the applicant's time can I throw out because I'm in agreement with Frank and I'm not sure what else is weighed in on the notion of the canopy being enough of a leeway for the parking in front of a building because it does nothing to screen the building it's just purely used as a loophole to park in front of the building the building at CVS was meant to screen the parking does it successfully do it or not that's for someone else to determine it's clear that the canopy over the cars is not doing it one lick of screening the cars are still directly in front so I'm going to say I personally vote completely against that I'd like to hear more from you in regards to that utility easement that prevents you from moving the building forward and parking more in the back whether it truly is an impediment because we have discussed that in the past we have given some waivers for having the parking lot in the front of the building because you can't move the building anywhere else and you can't put the building under the easement so I'd like to hear more from you in regards to that that truly does prevent you from moving the building forward and putting that parking that's in the front of the building now behind the building that's where I'm standing I'm not sold on the you've heard my non-conforming use expansion listen that's a design issue but it seems to me the fundamental question here is the use question because as Mr. Wilkin points out, some percentage of the gas sales are going to involve people walking to the store and paying cash for other things too but perhaps for the gas but I mean you guys have also there's not a lot of information out there publicly about what the facility operates as right now and I grant that this is a stretch but you do have a Yelp page that says from your business you know Gulf Road Shelvern Road, Gulf and Tailhook and provides towing and recovery throughout the state of Vermont and anywhere you might want to be towed we have an 8,000 square foot facility conveniently located in Hinesburg 8 miles from 189 or yeah 189 and a second location in south Burlington steps from I-189 we're also fully operational repair facility in state-of-the-art equipment to do necessary diagnostics on most engines and transmissions we are certified blah blah blah blah so it sounds like it's more than just sort of minor engine repairs operating and taking place there and so like that's a change of views from selling gas and doing actual repair work to selling gas expanding that and now you just have a convenience store which is nothing to do with repair facilities so I'm not sold on that part either I don't think you want to belabor tonight but some of what you read and I don't represent Mr. Hawker but some of what you read may be a little bit of copyright it's a yelp site but it says from the business about what they do at that site and one other thing that you have to face is that the Maple Leaf Motel has long term tenants in it we've got a letter from one that says they've been living there for a long period of time if that's the case then you have a removal of housing that is affordable and you've got to face that too so it's just another thing that you've got to we've got to talk about next time okay so we're continuing to is it September 7th does anybody have that in front of them? I just looked at it and I think it's the 4th I move that we continue sketch plan application SD 1816 of RO Valley Incorporated is September 4th second we continue to September 4th all in favor say aye opposed thank you take care we already approved the minutes so that is the end of the meeting at 11.09 p.m. you really went out on a doozy can we get a 7.15 one or 7.08 I think that's a record for this year that February one was pretty brutal too if anyone would like I have several of these little bars if anyone is starving I was so no I've got to get up at 4 and drive to New York so I'm going to avoid anything that's been giving me more energy right now oh man that's my own I have to say I had to look up the expression the candle's nose is under the tent