Okay, we're back here, live at HP Discover 2012. We are back inside theCUBE SiliconANGLE.tv, the exclusive, extensive coverage of the conference and HP's event here. We're getting down to the wire, last day for us, and I'm joined with my co-host. I'm Dave Vellante at Wikibon.org, and we're here with Bethany Mayer, who is the Senior Vice President and General Manager of HP's networking group, Bethany. Welcome to theCUBE. Thank you. Good to see you. You know, I hate to say it, this is really the one we've been looking for.  We're very excited about having you on. It was really exciting. I was trying to bring our energy in our A-game, but since we've been here three days, but thanks for coming on, and so give us the update. You're the GM of the networking division. You were also, prior to that, running marketing for all of ESSN, which is under Dave Donatelli, which is now the Convergent Infrastructure team. Give us the update on what's happening with networking, and we want to get into some of the factoids around software-defined networking, virtualization, all the advancements that's going to scale up, the big data. Yeah, happy to do it. So we made an announcement very recently at Interop, and we also repeated the message, again, at Discover to make sure our customers had heard about it. So we recently launched a new technology called Virtual Application Network, and the idea there is to have the ability to separate the control of your network from the physical network itself, and essentially virtualize the network and provide programmability in the network using Virtual Application Network. It's a module of our Intelligent Management Center, and we have also partnered with F5, which is also integrated into our van manager, our van node, and that allows you to do three really important things. It allows you to characterize the applications that are running on the network. It allows you to virtualize the network, and it allows you to orchestrate or program that network so that you can deploy applications very, very quickly. So when you say characterize them, you mean so that you can inject policies and automate the whole process. That's right, so different applications require different things of the network as they're running across them. I'll give you a good example exchange. It has a protocol called MAPI, it's very, very chatty, and you have to set up your network, your infrastructure, so that you can handle the chattiness, the back and forth of exchange to make sure you don't bog anything else down. And so what we've done along with F5, which of course is the market leading application delivery controller company, is to basically provide that application characterization to in our Intelligent Management Center so that we have the ability to characterize any number of applications, whether it's video, whether it's voice, whether it's exchange, whether it's SAP, any number of applications link as another one, so several different applications that you can basically characterize and then we provide a template that automatically provisions the network appropriately for that application. So in the case of exchange, you can abstract the chattiness and hide that complexity from the user. Right, the really valuable thing about this is it allows you to deploy applications very, very quickly. So right now applications take anywhere from weeks to months to provision, configure your network for, and then deploy. That has a lot to do with the fact that today, unfortunately, the network is very manually managed. The CLI is used very heavily and right now in order to provision a network for a new application, it takes you in a normal data center, it takes you 250,000 CLI entries. So the first the time for that, that means going box by box, putting CLI entries into those switches. It would be sad too if you happen to make a mistake which about one in 1,000 entries are a mistake and then you have to redo it based on the mistake. So it just takes you a really long time to provision the network and it doesn't know what's running on top of it, right? So it isn't characterized for that application. Yeah, so we talk a lot about the IT labor problem on theCUBE and if you look at it, probably about two thirds of the dollars that are getting spent in IT are spent on people. Exactly. And process around them and we think, IT, you think automation, but we've sort of not lived up to that promise, converged infrastructure is a big step at that and some of the things you're talking about with eliminating the command line interface flows or a big step in that direction. I mean, customers must be really pushing you to solve that problem because it's constricting innovation, isn't it? It is. I mean, frankly, the network is far behind in terms of innovation. The CLI itself has to be more than 25 years old. I mean, it's the creation of DAC, believe it or not, from years and years ago. So we're using today, in 2012, what was created in maybe 1983. I mean, just unbelievable time period for using CLIs and that has a lot to do with how the network's been developed and sort of the lack of competitive folks in the networking industry. Everybody's standardized on using a CLI and it's just, it's really manual. It's really error-prone and it takes a lot of time and people to do that. So the payback for having automation is huge. You know, it's like, when there was innovation, it's always like, it's a ratchet game. This gets better, that gets better. You get the servers are cranking out under your guys' group over there, converging infrastructure. Storage has got some great solutions with flash memory, everything's happening. And then it's like, come on, network guys, what's going on? So outside of just the manual, kind of old dated techniques, performance is also an issue too, right? So you talk about as the GM, you've got to look over and manage the P&L, make money, expand the product line. Brandon, you're unique because you have a converging infrastructure team behind you, not just a pure networking company. But what's happening in the trend line? What is the key things going on that's going to change that? Well, I would say first the software defined networking, which Van is our first step into that. In addition to the fact that we have OpenFlow enabled a majority of our products in the portfolio and my commitment is that we'll have OpenFlow enabled the entirety of our switching product line by the end of this year. So that first is very important because again, back to that automation, we provide something that's very differentiated. And I believe that software defined networking is going to be a sea change event for the network because it's really needed. So obviously there's been a lot of startups that have come out of that area. Yes. And depending on who you talk, there's a lot of fud going around the fear and certainly a doubt around what this is. Some are calling it academic. It is new because it popped out of Stanford and some academic guys helped with that. You guys actually- Is it really re-helped by the way? So you guys have just for the record a shipping product of OpenFlow? That is correct. We have the probably the first commercially shipping product of OpenFlow in terms of switches in the market. And we also have an installed base of OpenFlow enabled networks in the market too. What is the promise of OpenFlow on the software side? Is it, what's going to come out of the OpenFlow? Well, the promise of OpenFlow. OpenFlow is just part of how to create a software defined network. So the ability to automate and program the network without having to, as I said, run from box to box to box, that is a very different instantiation. So for software defined networking, the big keys are programmability, virtualization, and automation. So if we can do those three things very well, software defined network is going to really change how networking is done. And we think, I think, as well as my team with NHP believe that OpenFlow is a good part of that. It's an open standard, which not everybody likes, but we like, that's our philosophy. It's an open standard. You can build on that from a controller perspective to create your own products with all the different flavors. But it really allows for interoperability, which is important to our customers. They want products to be interoperable and they want heterogeneity, which we've always talked about with converged infrastructure. HP has had a big emphasis on the cloud, the security and trust in the cloud. How does virtualizing the network, this initiative that you're talking about, change the security model? It actually helps it a lot, because frankly you have a single point of control for your network. So you don't have people changing box configurations out in some part of the data center or in another campus or whatever that could affect the entirety of the infrastructure and cause it to basically be, your network to be taken down. You can have a single control point. That control point can include security as well. So you can authenticate, you can authorize. The complete AAA is there for you and you basically have a more secure network because you don't have folks working in different places to change the network without your knowledge. And presumably it's easier to automate updates and management of patches and things like that. Bethany, I wonder if we could change gears a little bit and talk about your business. You took over, what, now about a year ago? And so definitely firmly have your hands on the wheel. How's business? Maybe give us an update. You guys announced the quarter recently. Yeah, so we grew this quarter and that was great for us. In fact, that's now the ninth consecutive quarter of growth for HP Networking since we acquired 3Com and integrated the companies together. Which is like three years ago now, right? Actually, 2010. April 2010 was when we closed that. So maybe it filled us three years ago, but it's really only two years ago. But in any case, so we continue to see growth in our business, which I'm very pleased about. We continue to see customer momentum. We have some wonderful customers. One that's here today. I think you talked to him as Jason Cohen. Oh, he was great on the Cube. Yeah, he's awesome. Dynamic and innovative. Yeah, tremendous. And again, it's customers like that that really make me enjoy my job, actually, because it's a pleasure to work with them. So we have strong customer momentum, continued customer momentum, and we have great innovation. I mean, in addition to the virtual application network that I talked about, we also just launched more higher density, higher performance line cards for the 10 500. So now we have a 48 port 10 gig line card for the 10 500 and we have a four port 40 gig line card as well for the 10 500. So lots of density, lots of performance and throughput for the campus that has heavy video traffic, heavy rich media services required. And so we continue to innovate, which I, you know, that's why I do my job. Yeah, the product line's rounding out now. Dave Donatelli talked about it in his keynote and he gave some comparisons with your main competitor. He loves that. And he admittedly said, you know, this is their last generation product, but I'm using that comparison because that's what you're going to be migrating from. So it was at least transparent about that unlike your friends at Oracle who never are. So I respect that, you know. So Bethany, talk about even a lot of news lately, LinkedIn and then eHarmony had a hack and some security breaches. Security's a huge challenge. You guys have leadership there. Talk about what's going on with security and your vision there. Well, so as you know, I mean, we have market leading security products. We have tipping point, which is the market leader again, consistently for intrusion prevention and intrusion detection. We also have ArcSight, which is a great product that basically allows you to analyze and see everything that's going on in your infrastructure and we are working with our ArcSight team to be more integrated with using our management platform and the ArcSight analytics integrating that technology together so you can really, not only, you know, manage your network, deploy switches automatically, but also, you know, see what's going on and make sure that your network is secured. And then of course, Fortify, which is our offering to go through code and make sure that the code is written securely. So all of those things, you know, really provide a nice layered security portfolio for a customer, right? You make sure the code that you're developing is clean. You make sure that the network doesn't have any back doors, any problems that might, you know, come in and intrude. And the other pieces, you can see everything.  So I think we have a great offering. We continue to innovate there and again, continue to build customer momentum. We have a lot of developers, application developers in our network and in our SiliconANGLE audience. They're not really infrastructure geeks. What would you say to the folks out there that are watching that, that kind of know some innovations going down there? They worry about vulnerabilities because obviously, the apps is where there's a lot of holes in the apps too, but where is the hardened point you guys from a security standpoint? How do you guys talk to app developers? You say, hey, take, we're good. Take it from here. Because there's more apps coming onto the marketplace every day that need that programmatic QOS and or policy. Right, so the Fortify product in particular really allows companies when they have developers working on applications to be able to test the application code itself to determine whether that code has been written so that no one could perhaps, you know, get into the code base. And that's actually really important for developers as well because they want to make sure they develop clean code. They also want to make sure that the network that they're writing over is very secure and honestly our IPS product is better than anything on the market. And we have customers that absolutely are the most demanding customers from a security perspective in terms of their infrastructure that you could imagine. So we think that from a developer perspective, we offer really strong support for them in the code base itself and we offer strong support for them on the network when they're deploying that application. How far are you into the DevOps movement? Obviously DevOps is a big trend right now around network operations kind of merging together. You know, developers in ops, there's a growing contingent, the cloud market seems to be attracting a lot of developers who want to play with infrastructure and kind of co-develop with that and Facebook, Netflix, Apple, these guys all have those DevOps guys. Where are you guys at with the products there? Do you guys see that on your radar right now the DevOps target audience? Well I think the DevOps audience is someone we care a lot about and in particular our cloud business unit with the public cloud offering that we have where you can develop code on the infrastructure itself if you wish to. We have lots of tools, lots of capabilities. That's a playground basically for developers. So we think we're actually extremely competitive for developers and for companies that want their developers to utilize perhaps an infrastructure that's there, that they don't have to purchase, that they don't have to support, right? They have it and by the way it's very secure. So we actually think we're going to really enable the DevOps movement within the market. Converged infrastructure is a catalyst for DevOps as well. I think we're hearing that a lot. For those that are really pursuing DevOps it's still early days. Yeah, I would agree. Converged infrastructure, I mean it's funny because a lot of people have now, let's see, they say imitation is the best form of flattery. So a lot of people have come out with their own converged infrastructure following what we've done and I have to say even so we have the best offering on the market. It is best of breed in all of the product offerings and from what I can see in our market share position and in our quadrant leadership as well as we have the cloud business unit that's created a wonderful offering that is based on the converged infrastructure. So really utilizes all the really strong features that the converged infrastructure brings. Those proof points are really important because you personally, you and Dave, Don Nutelli did a great job of crafting that strategy and marketing it and getting out to the market but that's one thing to market the concept. Right, another thing to actually have products. Deliver on it. Do that, yeah, it's kind of cool. So congratulations on that, that's good. Thank you very much. Congratulations on all your success. My final question, because we're getting ready to wrap up here for the end of HP Discover. What's next this year for you? What's on your agenda going forward? Obviously, probably the normal, keep the ship going in the right direction but what's on your agenda for the year? Well, in terms of technology, some really key areas of course is software defined networking that's very important to us and we're going to continue to innovate there, no question. The other area is wireless and we have a really strong differentiated offering. Obviously, BYOD is a big movement going on and we have an offering that is a wired wireless integration product set that means that you don't have to manage your wired and wireless infrastructure separately which by the way, all of our competitors, you must do that. So, and we offer security so when you bring any device, doesn't matter what it is, into the network, we can assure that it's the kind of device it is, who's using it and where they're going on the network. We can have access control there and we also characterize the network for those devices so we know we can do device management with our partnership with F5. So, wireless is going to be really important to us, continues to be important to us and then last but not least, I would say, our performance, our continued growth and performance in the data center. We've got some great products that we're going to be rolling out with this year. Our 5900 last year has been very successful for us and you'll see more from us there this year. Some really great stuff. We're seeing meat in the bone, John, across the entire, what used to be ESSN and now is the EN group. This is a trademark of, I know Dave Donatell if you're a trademark of a Donatelli-run organization, identify the stuff that customers need, laser focus on getting them out, put differentiation, put meat in the bone, put pressure on the competition and drive hard. So, it's- It's fun to watch. We've been following you guys for years now. It's been great to watch the success and the real differentiation and have that converged infrastructure, kind of a unique package and totally differentiated and it's great value. Thanks for coming on theCUBE. Really appreciate it. Thank you. As you mayor, it's the HPEGM of the networking group don't forget storage and service all kind of in the same umbrella. Thanks for sharing your perspective and updates. You're welcome. Thanks again, good to see you. Okay, that's it. We'll be right back for a wrap up for here for HP Discover right after this break.


In Mystery History's opinion, the ancient ruins found upon the Plateau of Giza are some of, if not the most, heavily debated, heavily guarded, and most academically protected ancient side on Earth. Yet it remains one of the most talked-about, mysterious, intriguing, ancient stonework of them all. Many people are now aware of the anomalies which were once tightly controlled secrets surrounding the exterior features of the build and, more importantly, the achievements that these feats once were. These inexplicable factors, the size of the megalithic exoskeleton, the vastly different ages of the casing stones, are now thought by many as the defining motive for a cover-up regarding the pyramid's true age and original purpose. Many a blackouts, counterintelligence, and many other outlandish conspiracies now rife among the research of the site. From giants to UFOs, the ideas and theories people have put forward for their function, or indeed, what could be hidden in voids constantly discovered yet to be penetrated, these hidden rooms, along with their ancient entrances, remain a complete enigma even in recent years as advances in penetrative radar become a reality and accessible to self-funded individuals and research teams, more and more voids, unexplained heat anomalies, and even air shafts not known of before continue to be discovered within these enormous mystifying structures. Yet as mentioned, the subculture, many genuine yet misguided in their investigative method, but also many funded individuals involved in many other hard-to-deny subjects, has successfully swamped the field with dis-and-or misinformation, creating opinionated followings with a successfully corrupted impartiality, deceptively manipulated into becoming said misinformation's advocates. Rather than whence they came, an open mind, a skill for discussion, and an unbiased critical approach to subjects whose true nature are actively being protected. The predictably far fewer articles, books, and other logical critical, impartial to all but fact, unwavering competent research done by many capable individuals, although adrift within an ocean of fallacy, shines much light upon some highly compelling yet albeit highly controversial features of the Plateau of Giza, features which may one day lead us to ultimately unlocking the Pyramid's secrets and allowing us to finally understand what these structures past functions truly were, not only in detail, but perhaps in an attempt of replication. During our own research, we have found some interesting similarities between Giza and Bosnia, among other lesser-known pyramid structures. And this curious, yet continually reoccurring feature is now being more frequently discovered all over the world. The Great Pyramid of Bosnia, for example, a site discovered by Samir Osmanogik, has an ingenious river, which, after three years of research, was confirmed by him and his team, to have had an artificial current. The reason for this is currently unknown, but it seems water was a significant factor in the past function of these ancient structures. Water is a curious thing, and in many situations acts just like that of electricity. It runs in currents and travels through tubes like electric through cables. Yet no one seems to know what electricity is. We hypothesize that these water features are of tremendous significance when it comes to understanding the true function of these incredible structures. But I digress. The plateau has always intrigued me, although, buried by a desert sand, the solid sandstone below is of an unimaginable size and seemingly level over 40 feet deep in some places. Yet no one truly understands its origins. Indeed, structures as large as the pyramids would need impressive foundations. But the plateau, it seems, is far too large, and if man-made, bafflingly sparse of any ruins, structures which one would have presumed would have been the reason for its enormous construction. There is, however, another hypothesis, a legend that told of a lost labyrinth, a secret underground layer as big as a town, a secret underground structure so large and thus so easy to get lost within. It became known as the labyrinth. Long spoke of but always dismissed as mythological, this due to a lack of any substantial evidence for its existence. That is, until a few years ago, when a groundbreaking rediscovery was made, yet unfortunately it seems, this groundbreaking event was somehow masterfully stifled, not shared by mainstream media, funded institutions with their armory of literature and magazines alike. Thus, it merely becomes an observational exercise in yet another display of the influence our currently controlling institutions have over public opinion, preventing an underground city of gigantic proportions buried beneath Giza, never successfully achieving public notoriety. The Sand of Harara was scanned by a Belgian-Egyptian expedition team in 2008 in an effort to research something known as the Quarry Theory, suggested by Petri in 1889, following his finding of a great artificial stone surface measuring 304 m by 244 m. Petri interpreted the enormous artificial stone plateau as the foundation of the labyrinth, concluding that the building itself, although long believed to have been totally demolished in the Ptolemaic period, had in fact survived and lay hidden for millennia. The surveys proved its foundation remained unpenetrated and still laid undiscovered beneath the sandstone, never lost, the possibility of the results being that of the roof of the labyrinth, all but proven true. The following is an excerpt from the Dig's official report. Underneath this upper zone, below the artificial stone surface, appears, in spite of the turbid effect of the groundwater, at a depth of 8 to 12 meters, a grid structure of gigantic size made of a very highly resistant material like granite stone. This proves the presence of a colossal archaeological feature which has to be reconsidered as the roof of the still existing labyrinth. Are the legends true? Does the labyrinth of Giza still lay hidden, unexplored beneath the sands of Egypt? We find the evidence to suggest such highly compelling. The underground cities of Cappadocia, Turkey number more than 200 and are spread across the entire region. It is highly possible that there is many more lying below the surface, just waiting to be found. Of all the underground cities discovered so far, the most awe-inspiring is perhaps the Derinkuyu city. It was discovered by accident in 1963, when a local family was renovating a house, a wall gave way to reveal a passage that led to this underground network. According to National Geographic, it is 11 levels deep, descending more than 280 feet to the bedrock, covering an area of over 4 miles squared. It includes temples, tombs, shops, living quarters, and even livestock pens. Over 15,000 air shafts were built into its design and would have been enough room to comfortably house approximately 20,000 people. The underground city has extending passages that connected to other neighboring and underground water well systems, providing fresh water. What is especially interesting regarding this underground world is the evidence to suggest that they were hiding from something terrifying. A sophisticated security system consisting of a particular build design, accompanied by numerous gigantic rolling stone-blocking doors that would seal the city from the inside. Moreover, its multi-layered design meant that each level could be sealed off from the next level using this same system. Just what were these people hiding from? Whatever it was, they obviously preferred to run rather than confront it. The structure was excruciatingly carved into the underground rock and is as strong today as the day it was built, safely accommodating guests such as archaeologists and tourists. Whoever built the network obviously had an advanced knowledge of stoneworking, architecture, engineering, and the local geography. Aging the structure has proven very difficult. There are no existing quarries, waste piles, or tools to examine. Furthermore, there are no records documenting its construction, or people who may have lived there. Also, unfortunately, many cultures have used the underground towns over the centuries. According to UNESCO, it is believed that the first signs of monastic activity in Cappadocia date back to the 4th century, at which time acting on the instructions of Basil the Great in order to resist attacks from the Arabs, the people should band together into small, local communities and begin inhabiting cells dug into the rock. Therefore, modern academia tends to conclude that they were likely built by the Phrygian people around 800 BC. Yet it is also a strong possibility that they are far older than this. By the bishops' instruction, they are to inhabit, not build. Therefore it is safe to assume he was aware of their existence, rather than the person who thought them up. Some believe the underground caves were constructed by the very ancient Persian king Yema. Yema, attributed as mythological by many, is said to have had a lifespan of more than 900 years, a common feature of biblical figures as well. The Zoroastrian text Vendedad states that Yema built an underground city on the orders of the god Ahura Mazda, to protect his people from a catastrophic winter. Much like the account of Noah in the Bible, Yema was instructed to collect pairs of the best animals and people as well as the best seeds in order to reseed the earth after the winter cataclysm. This was before the last Ice Age, 110,000 years ago. Hey guys, so a few months back I shared with you the story of adventurous geologists who had trekked far into the cold wilderness of Russia in an effort to catalog the largest megalithic site on earth. So remote, they are steeped in legends of snow yetis and mysterious monsters devouring all who dared to venture into these remote areas. When I shared the amazing images of these stone structures, many argued that they were natural formations, maybe because they struggled to conceive such enormous ancient ruins in such remote places. These that seem to be many hundreds of thousands of years old. Maybe even as old as the giant Sphinx. More and more is being learned about them. With ever more daring explorations of the ruins being undertaken, a team discovered a vault in one of the stone megaliths, an access vault that led them into an artificially made stone cavern system. These underground structures are truly massive and are undoubtedly constructed by an intelligent builder. Hidden for many millennia, these caverns are not only massive, but constructed using blocks placed upon one another that are over 50 feet in length in some instances. Making these stones many thousands of tons in weight, seemingly placed effortlessly into the shape of underground walls. This discovery is not really shed light upon how the ancients built such structures, but rather push their apparent capabilities farther from our understanding. Not only are these structures purpose a vast mystery, but they also contain placed stones bigger than any we've ever discovered, even eclipsing the unfinished stone found at the ancient Chinese quarry known as Yangshan. A stone can be found here half cut away from the bedrock, in excess of 16,000 tons, thought by scholars throughout time to have been left at the quarry due to them not being able to move it. Yet, here we have stones placed into a cave system designed which even outweigh Yangshan. This not only proves they could move them, but lift them and work them. Just how many, quote, natural formations are really just extremely weathered once extremely large stone-built structures. Maybe there are many stone granite hills, and even maybe mountains that dot our earth, which work before millennia of rain, grand structures of a forgotten people. The awe-inspiring ancient city of Hegra, also known as Madain Saleh, close sister of the equally astonishing and cinematically famous ancient site of Petra, is now finally open to the public, able to go and investigate for themselves. We have covered this site, and indeed the gigantic scale of the rock-cut temples that claim tombs and tall doorways to enter these sites. Furthermore, we have covered uncanny similarities found upon rare unfinished areas of these once astonishingly precisely cut solid rock ruins. In addition to the enormous scale of the stone-cut buildings, and the absence of doorsteps, which would have enabled the now average size human claimed as having created them, no chance of entering them with ease. This giving credence to the many theories pertaining to these gigantic structures, along with their gigantic scales, and their enormous megalithic counterparts found at other sites, linked to by cutting marks previously mentioned, were instead constructed by an ancient now lost race, far larger than any of today, one capable of these incredible ancient feasts. Could these structures have instead of, as so many as indeed we have postulated, not actually built by ancient man, but were actually made by ancient giants? Not only with the muscular ability to have once lifted such enormous stones into position, such as that of the enormous megalithic stones incorporated into the great pyramids of Giza, found within the temples of Baalbeck, Garnia Shoria, but also almost globally? Could this explain how they were once able to liberate these giant stones from the quarries and bedrocks, selected almost many miles from where they were eventually placed with seeming ease? How they were somehow transported, enormous stones high atop mountains, assembling them into the remarkably precise-laid polygonal masonry that now drenches the tops of Peruvian peats? How they once raised the ancient obelisk of Aswan? But I digress. Many have now conceded that the methodology of the great pyramids of Giza construction continues to be an enigma in regards to a modern explanation as to how the modern man accomplished such feats. Could this mystery be linked to the cover-up in which many have claimed, and we ourselves encountered, in regard to the remains of this possibly lost civilization smothered by the Smithsonian, one that we would now perceive as ancient giants? It is a hypothesis which would indeed be a fitting explanation for these mysteries and a cover-up, the stifling of a reason for their continued inexplicability to modern explanation. It is a theory which we find incredibly intriguing. There are many ancient ruins that were not only beyond the capabilities of the claimed creators, but we postulate were simply re-inhabited, allowing the far more primitive and we feel far more recent inhabitants to flourish, developing these sanctuaries, often heavily fortified temples to a point where they were able to leave their own mark upon these locations. An archaeological legacy left after the original creators of said sites were seemingly wiped out, with their own archaeological legacies simply washed away by the seas of our planet. These remnants have allowed academia to simply disregard the feat of engineering, such incredibly large sites would have required, pinning such efforts to a more suitable candidate. After researching many such sites, backed up by the megalithic accomplishments that they still possess, one will begin to notice a pattern, an illogical and contradictory history for these groups, often invaded by a similarly capable and heavily studied group. The question is, why were a group who were apparently capable of building such a site so easily dominated by another which existed at the same era of history? One would have imagined that if they were indeed the builders of said sites, that they would have also been able to have created substantial defense systems, yet these are invariably absent from nearly all of these sites, with just the weather-resistant megaliths, and indeed the condition of the sites most probably very similar to how they are found today. And Chan Chan is no exception. Believed to have been constructed around 850 AD, based on archaeological finds, subsequently claimed as having been constructed by the Chimu, although this explanation for the enormous site is conveniently absent any explanation as to how this society achieved such incredible feats of ancient engineering. It became the Chimur Empire's capital city, with an estimated population of 40 to 60,000 people when invaded by the Inca. After the Inca captured the Chimu around 1470 AD, Chan Chan was abandoned, and by 1535 AD again became a ruin of history, surviving into modern day and beyond. While no longer a teeming capital city, Chan Chan was still well-known for its great riches, and was consequently looted by the Spanish treasure hunters. With an indication of the creator's wealth seen in a 16th century list of items looted from a burial tomb, a treasure equivalent to 80,000 pesos of gold was recovered, nearly 5 million US dollars in gold. Incredibly intricate stone-cut engravings rest alongside massive fortified walls, and there is most likely many other tombs in the site, which not only predate this later re-inhabitation, but are probably also filled to the rafters with gold, an expression of these original creator's power, and again contradictory to the Chimu's claim to such a site. Furthermore, Chan Chan is in a particularly arid section of the coastal desert of northern Peru, and due to the lack of rain in this area, the major source of non-salted water was in the form of rivers carrying surface runoff from the Andes. This runoff allowed for the control of land and water through irrigation systems. The city of Chan Chan spanned 20 square kilometers, and had a dense urban center of 6 square kilometers. These contain extravagant Ciudadelas, Ciudadelas being the large architectural masterpieces which house plazas, storerooms, and burial platforms for the royals. Who were the original builders of Chan Chan? Were they, like we postulate, wiped out during a disaster? We find the evidence to suggest such highly compelling.


The final item of business is a member's business debate on motion 10199 in the name of Liz Smith on Save Our Pools campaign. This debate will be concluded without any questions being put, and I would ask those members who would wish to speak in the debate to please press the request to speak buttons, and I call on Liz Smith to open the debate. Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. It is my privilege to open this debate on behalf of many residents across Mid Scotland and Fife, particularly in Perth and Alloa, who have written to me about the plight of their local swimming pools, but also as convener of the cross-party group on sport, whose members have raised their own concerns. May I compliment the work that has been undertaken by Scottish Swimming? I very much look forward to hearing the contributions from other colleagues, some of whom I am aware have been campaigning very hard in their local communities, and I sincerely hope this evening that we can find some cross-party consensus. The chamber knows that sport has always been a very large part of my life, and during my time as a member of this Parliament I have always sought to bring my outside passion for sport into my working life to ensure that the voices of sporting bodies are heard as loudly as possible by those in power. As convener of the cross-party group on sport for over 10 years now, swimming has always had a very high profile among our members. May I take this opportunity to thank him at Conson and the Scottish Sports Association for all their work? Their contribution is so important because of the incontrovertible evidence that tells us why a healthy and vibrant sporting sector benefits us all, which is why all of us are worried about the closure or impending closure of sports facilities, and in this case local swimming pools. I am sure that colleagues joining us today from West Lothian will have some very strong words regarding the three proposed closures of the Armadale, Brockston and Livingston pools. The public backlash about this in the news speaks for itself. Swimming is an essential basic skill, most especially for children to acquire, so it is frightening that the National Water Safety Forum is reporting that 40 per cent of children leaving primary school are unable to swim and that their opportunity to learn this skill is so strongly linked with their socio-economic background. Swimming pools are an important facility for maintaining good health and wellbeing. The Scottish Government has said very clearly that it recognises the need to improve the nation's health and to address the wide life expectancy gap between many regions across Scotland. I hope that the minister will mention that point. Thank you. I am very grateful for Liz Smith giving way. I wonder if she would agree with me that, given the now the cost for obesity in Scotland having risen to £5 billion and the cost for mental health risen to £4.5 billion, that any reduction in our access to physical activity is a false economy and we should resist it as much as we possibly can. How could I possibly disagree with that? I pay tribute to Brian Whittle for the work that he has undertaken over many years now on that point. I hope that the minister will recognise this evening that the decisions to close fitness facilities like pools are directly in conflict with the aim of the Scottish Government, which is trying to improve our health and wellbeing both physically and mentally. It is completely counterproductive when we have the lowest life expectancy in the UK and an epidemic obesity crisis. Swimming pools transcend the fitness aspect alone. They are popular community hubs that attract young and old people alike and they are particularly enjoyed as family outings. I am sure that most people have happy childhood memories of visiting pools with their siblings, friends, parents and grandparents. Closing local community facilities—we saw that in abundance in the aftermath of Covid—leads directly to increasing anti-social behaviour among some younger groups who find that they have fewer places to go. I may also add a point about water safety. In Scotland, where we are truly blessed with a vast array of popular loss and rivers spanning the country, we also have by far the highest rates of drowning fatalities anywhere in the UK. That has risen considerably since 2015, with especially grim statistics in 2021, when 57 lives were lost to drowning. That is especially an issue for young people because we know that the influence of social media is having a very considerable impact attracting greater numbers of people to enjoy the beauty spots across Scotland. That is a very important point to bear in mind when we are focusing on diminishing numbers with basic swimming skills. On a much happier note, it is Scotland's privilege to be home to so many elite athletes who have achieved so much in the world of swimming. I mentioned Duncan Scott in this motion, who is well connected with Mid Scotland and Fife and who is now one of the most highly decorated Olympians in British history. Swimming in the UK is well and truly on the rise. At the last Olympic Games in Tokyo, the British swimming team won eight medals, half of which were gold, the most successful result ever, and the most medals won in swimming for over 100 years. All of those elite athletes developed their talents because of the wide access that they had to pools, many of them in Scotland. I appreciate that there is no quick fix to that issue, but I hope that that motion will generate the necessary awareness to reverse this undesired and indeed widely unpopular trend of closing community pools. Whilst I am sure that the minister will tell me that that is really an issue for local authorities, there is the important issue of decades of underfunding of local authorities. Covid has certainly increased the costs of running those facilities and the Observatory for Sport in Scotland pinpoints, the multimillion-pound maintenance backlogs that have spiralled costs out of control and the unsustainable funding model. The Scottish Government has a crucial role, so when the Scottish Government negotiates the much-needed fiscal framework with local government, and I hope that that will include multi-year funding and planning, I hope that this issue will be well up the agenda. The UK Government has already moved on this, providing £63 million of investment to pools in England, which aims to address the challenges of current costs and improve long-term sustainability through energy plans, yet no such decision has been forthcoming with the Government. I want to ask why not, because the answer that Joe Fitzpatrick gave to my colleague Pam Gosall in finance questions just this afternoon was this. To confirm, all the consequentials that have come to the Scottish Government have been allocated, but he did not confirm where in relation specifically to Barnett consequentials for swimming pools, so can I ask the minister to confirm this now, because if we want to save our community pools, that investment is desperately needed now? Thank you, Ms Smith, and we now move to open speakers. I call Fulton MacGregor to be followed by Ross McCall. First, I would like to congratulate Liz Smith in bringing this important debate to the chamber. If I can start on a rather petty or tongue-in-cheek remark, I would like to say that the motion in question is remarkably similar to the one that I submitted back in April also for members' business, but well done to Liz Smith for getting it through to the actual debate here. In all tongue-in-cheek, as I say, I think that what it does demonstrate, the fact that there are two very similar motions, is something that we can all agree on, that we all have a desire here to save our swimming pools. I know the value that swimming pools can bring to not just local communities but also the wider area as a whole. In my constituency of co-bridge and crisis, it is home to the time capsule water park, which I am sure many of my colleagues here have visited. I am not sure if it is going to be the same for the minister, but I know that the Cabinet Secretary for Education, for example, tells me that her first trip to co-bridge was to the time capsule when she was a child. So synonymous is the time capsule with swimming that very recently John McGinn, who is not from co-bridge himself, recently tagged himself on Instagram at the time capsule during that particularly wet night at Hamden when we beat Georgia. So I think that says it all. The threat facing our swimming pools is multi-layered. The high energy dependency for pools and leisure centres is one of the most obvious threats. In figures reported by Scottish Swimming, it is to make the energy prices for swimming pools and leisure centres increased from £500 million in 2019 to £1.2 billion in 2022. Even more recently, a shortage of chlorine has resulted in an up to 30 per cent increase in the prices of the chemical, which has further squeezed the already tight budgets of our community hubs and leisure centres. The consequences of losing our pools is also multi-layered. It is self-evident that pools provide the perfect environment for those of all ages to learn how to swim and about water safety. In this period of warm weather, there will be many more people enjoying our vast coastline and over 30,000 locks, as Liz Smith pointed out. This is not to mention the increasing popularity of wild swimming or dooking, whatever you might want to call it, which I myself have spoken about in recent times as well. Learning how to swim safely is a key skill for everybody and to be blunt without pools. We are risking the people learning that skill. In addition to water safety pools, they are a place of exercise, which is critical for maintaining people's physical and mental health. We often talk about mental health and the increase in those with mental health difficulties as we emerge from the Covid-19 pandemic. Exercise and fitness is a key way to improve and maintain one's mental health. Without pools, we are again cutting off that vital link, because swimming is often an exercise that many people can do when they are unable to do other exercises. As well as water safety and mental health, swimming pools can also act as community hubs, again the point that was made by Liz Smith. They are important social assets for our villages, towns and urban centres. They breathe life into their communities, as well as develop talent and athletes who have done Scotland proud on the world stage. Earlier today in the chamber, I asked the minister for finance about how local authorities could be supported with rising energy costs, with a special emphasis on the implication for swimming pools. In the minister for local government empowerment and planning, I apologise, I confirmed the Scottish Government's commitment to ensuring that the future of swimming pools remains sustainable, while also reasserting their importance for mental and physical health. I want to close by commenting on the parliamentary reception that I sponsored for Swim in Scotland in late March this year. It was there that we heard Triple Olympian Hannah Miley, MP, speaking of her experiences learning to swim and training in a local community pool. She said in the next bits of quote, I have very fond memories of my time swimming in a small 25-metre pool in Inverourie, and the sense of belonging being a member of a club gave me. There was a whole community involved in the sport, from the friends I made in the pool to the coaches who advised and supported me through good times and bad. To parent volunteers who generously gave their time every weekend to support gals, competitions and training. I think that Hannah succinctly articulated what we risk losing pools with every single pool that closes. I hope that today this debate can be one part of coming together to tackle those many multifaceted reasons why pools are at risk in coming together to try and save them. Thank you. I'm going to jump right into the deep end and thank my colleague, Liz Smith, for bringing this to the chamber. I'm happy to speak on the very necessary access to swimming, which is so important for our children, not only in a sporting capacity, but also for physical and mental development. It strengthens heart and lungs in infants, it provides therapeutic health and it increases cognitive and motor skills. I would also like to commend Scottish Swimming on the Save Our Pools campaign, as Scottish Swimming has highlighted that swimming pools often lie at the heart of communities and become places where homegrown heroes and champions are made, in one of Britain and Scotland's top performing sports. Look at the amazing country that we live in. Scotland has one of the most beautiful landscapes of any country in the world. We have beautiful beaches with access to the sea, wild and wonderful locks situated right across the land. It's no wonder that wild swimming is rapidly becoming one of the most sought after forms of an individual healthcare routine, and Scotland is actively placed to promote this within our countryside. However, as much as there's a rapid increase in this sport, we're also facing a rapid reduction in the people who will be able to experience it. We're actually talking about a health and safety issue. Knowing how to swim is an excellent way to have a healthy life, and safety on the water is a life's goal that we should all have. So it's important that our young people know how to swim, the perils of the water, and how to stay safe. I make no excuses for raising the issues of swimming pool provision in my region of Mid Scotland of Life as the closure of swimming pools is having a detrimental effect right across the region. I recognise the concerns regarding local authority swim pools, and I'm disappointed that we've already seen the Alloa leisure bowl close its doors, and it's deeply concerning that the Perth leisure centre was heading towards closure. It was only a reprieve of a year, I will. Can the member confirm that she knows that the Perth leisure pool is closing? Ross McColl? As I was going on to say, what was heading towards closure is only the reprieve of a year, arranged at the last minute that allowed a short relief for local residents, who are now bearing the brunt of a 10 to 15% increase in prices, with no guarantee that it will save the leisure centre in the long run. Time march is on, and unless adequate funding is found, we'll shortly be facing another round of local authority budget processes. Where the headline of imminent closure for Perth leisure centre will again be splashed across the front pages of the Persia press. Equally in Fife, local media is highlighting a similar issue. Fife is looking down the barrel of a fifth school swimming pool closure. Inverkeithing High School will be the fifth school in the local area to lose its swimming pool since 2003 if proposals go ahead. In the last 20 years, we've seen swimming pools closed when Queen Anne St Columbus, Dunferman and Woodmill schools closed with no pool replacements forthcoming. Now, Inverkeithing High is sitting under the funding sword of Damocles awaiting for the decision from the council. It's the slow erosion of the local amenities, which is having a detriment effect on the children in the area. Dunferman Amateur Swimming Club are rightly concerned, and they've simply asked how exactly Fife council intends to fulfil their obligation to provide physical education in the form of swimming and community use swimming lessons in the area, and I can't help but agree with them. It will take a concerted effort at both national and local level if we're going to halt the direction of travel. I urge the Scottish Government to have a look at their policies to include statutory swimming lessons just the same as the rest of the United Kingdom. In conclusion, swimming is a form of exercise that does not discriminate. It's perfect for everyone, regardless of your ability, your fitness level, your age. Having that local facility is just as essential for elderly acorobics as it is for butterfly time trials. Life-saving brownie badges are for simply swimming with your pals, and we must make sure that the joy of swimming stays open to all. Thank you, Ms McAll. I now call Jim Fairlie to be followed by Fausal Choudhury. Mr Fairlie. Thank you very much, Presiding Officer. I'd like to congratulate Liz Smith for this member's debate and wholeheartedly agree with the vast majority of what the motion for the debate contains, except perhaps the last line, but I might return to that later. Inspirational figures like Duncan Scott, as was mentioned by Liz Smith, really are folk that we can be very proud of, and particularly for the fact that he trained at Strathallan school in Forgundenni, which is in my constituency of Persia, South and Cronosia. Of course, I am absolutely going to claim that the most decorated British Olympian at a symbol, a single Olympic Games of all time, is a Scot, we play on words there, and almost certainly owes all of his success to the Persia environment that he was brought up in and trained in the Persia air, the Persia water, and the fabulous people around him, none more so than his mum, Joy. Mind you, the seven days a week up in the pool for 5.30 in the morning, the strict eating regime, the constant pushing, harder, further and faster, and the sheer determination to be the best might have helped, but I still think it was Persia that made him the fabulous champion that he is. So, in reality, he's our Persia champion, and we are keeping him. Not least of all, because not only is he the most decorated Olympian, he's also the most decorated Scottish athlete at the Commonwealth Games level, and he's Scottish Swimming's ambassador, who is sponsored by Scottish Water for their learn to swim campaigns. So, a truly talented, remarkable young man that, as I said, despite his being born in Glasgow, then left the Nair and Alloa, I think it was, he is, and I say this quite unashamedly, a Persia laddie. What he is, though, is lucky that he had the facilities that he needed to be the superstar that he is available to him. And clearly, we want to have those facilities so that every person from babies to pensioners have the ability to visit a pool. Enjoy the water and get the physical and mental health benefits of doing so. And, as importantly, particularly here in Scotland, have a life skill that is quite literally a lifesaver, as we have already heard. We are all aware of the recent tragedies of people losing their lives when wild swimming, but if someone has the core ability to swim either through school lessons or the multitude of swim clubs and the learn to swim campaign that I mentioned in relation to Duncan Scott, then, hopefully, those kinds of tragedies can be averted. I very clearly remember my own school swimming lessons in the freezing cold pool at Dunkelrodden Perth that smelled very strongly of chlorine, where the teacher kept the stand at the side of the pool till everyone was ready, which just added to the fact that we were already freezing cold. That experience may not have been the greatest, but I definitely learned to swim. So I was delighted when my own children were taught at the recently then, a long time ago now, right, certainly, Perth leisure pool, it was in a much more pleasant environment. Anna and I could sit at the side of the cafe in the viewing area above the pool and watch as our two wee cherubs were taught to swim like fish and put us both to shame. In fact, our elders became such a great wee swimmer that it inspired her mum to go back and get a refresher course just to be better at it. So I am completely supportive of the spirit behind the motion that Liz Smith brings forward. With that in mind, I would like to commend the SNP administration in Perth and Greenross for putting funding forward this year to make sure that Perth leisure pool has stayed open and that it endeavors to ensure the long-term sustainability of that complex. They are in the process of building the new complex at the Blair Gowrie rec in my colleague John Swinney's constituency, and I am confident that they will find a way to do far more for the sustainability of the Perth facility than the previous administration led by the Tories, Ross, who have prevaricated for an entire term and refused to build the PH2O. The Blair Gowrie rec that he is referring to was a proposal put forward by the Conservative administration, was it not, and that was brought forward by the previous administration, I think that he would agree. So bringing the proposal forward is one thing. The previous administration to the one that we are talking about had proposed PH2O and it sat on the shelf and was never done, which is why the complex in Perth is currently sitting in the situation that it is. So I hope that, in the spirit of this mutual accord, that Liz Smith and Ross Macall will congratulate and support the SNP efforts in Perth and Greenross and make sure that the Perth leisure pool stays open, Presiding Officer. Thank you, Mr Pearlie, and I now call Faisal Choudhury to be followed by Alexander Stewart. Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I would like to thank Liz Smith for bringing this important issue to the chamber. Presiding Officer, to be able to swim is to be able to exercise, socialise and learn vital water safety skills. This is especially true for our children, for whom swimming is a life-saving skill. And for older citizens, for whom swimming can be a lifeline to allow for independent exercise and socialising. All of this vital contribution swimming pools bring to our society are under threat. Without them, we run the risk of whole generation being unable to swim and communities without health and social activities. Swimming is a great safety resource and preventive measure to teach our children water safety. My constituent, Luis Conde, has been petitioning tirelessly for the inclusion of swimming in schools. Before I was a member, the public petition committee considered this petition. They heard evidences about the unequal access to swimming lessons and the link between child's social and economic background and their opportunity to learn to swim. This means that children are already at disadvantage in terms of the benefits that swimming can bring because of poverty. Are we really going to make that worse by removing community swimming pools altogether? Our lack of funding has had this sector hard. I repeat, a lack of funding. This is clear in West Lothian where three pools have closed. Luis has told me that Broxburn swimming pool, one of those affected, wasn't just a swimming pool. It was someone's rehabilitation. It was their therapy to improve mental health. It was a social club to meet with friends. It was the livelihood of local swimming clubs. It was somebody's job. Lots of disabled or elderly people rely on swimming as the only form of exercise they can do safely. With one constituent telling me, this has given him sleepless nights. Another constituent was unable to access council swimming lessons for her children due to extremely high demand. Private swimming lessons are expensive and so lower income families once again lose out. On this issue, I wrote to the Minister for Social Care, Mental Well-being and Sports and I was told there was no time available to meet. I then wrote to the First Minister. I have received no response and now there is no mention of swimming pools in the new programme for government. Presiding officer, the UK government allocated 63 million to leisure centres with swimming pools in England. When I asked the Scottish Government the response that has benefited from consequently added to the overall Scottish block, why was this not directly invested into saving our pools or to provide communities with a natural health service? Why are the Scottish Government not doing enough to save our pools? Thank you. I now call Alexander Stewart to be followed by Maggie Chapman. Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I am delighted to have the opportunity to speak this afternoon and I like to congratulate my colleague Liz Smith for securing this member business debate on a very essential and highly concerning issue. Liz Smith's motion rightly mentions Duncan Scott and he has been raised a number of times in the chamber already this evening. He was raised in Clackmannanshire in our Mid Scotland and Fife region and has become one of Scotland's most successful swimming champions in recent memory. Yet, thanks to the closure of the leisure bowl in Alwa, the town no longer has a swimming pool. That is, quite honestly, a disgraceful situation. The Scottish Government and, in turn, the National Run Clackmannan Council are jointly culpable for that travesty. Clackmannan Development Trust said at the time another devastating blow to the wee county for the loss of more jobs and the closure of the loss of health facilities, fitness and social activity. The leisure bowl has been providing this for an excess of 30 years, with around 52,000 residents in the county now unable to find a swimming pool or a facility within their county. One resident said, so disappointing, the loss of opportunity for children in Clackmannanshire to develop a life skill in swimming and the loss of fitness, leisure and recreational facilities for residents who do not have the money or transport to travel out with the county. Sad times. They are sad times, Deputy Presiding Officer. The Scottish Government's squeezing of council budgets interlinked with Clackmannanshire's local lack of vision and forward thinking has meant that there is no contingency at all for a pool within the county. We have seen even schools built within the wee county and not one of them had the provision of a swimming pool. That was signed up by another resident saying that the lack of school building swimming pools is a disgrace, a double whammy for Clackmannanshire children. Save Our Pools is a national campaign to highlight the importance of swimming pools and secure long-term financial investment from government and sustainable for their pools in sport. We already know, but it is right to point out again, that swimming pools are the nation's natural health and safety service. Around 14 million people of all ages and all abilities swim each year in the United Kingdom. That takes the form and it helps to ensure that healthy individuals and that in turn saves the NHS millions of pounds. We know within Mid Scotland Fife and within my own area and own regions the difficulties of health and equality. Sport, health and swimming gives a huge opportunity. I have also been a strong advocate for water safety for many decades. I feel that it is only right to point out that swimming pools are the natural places for people to learn how to swim. That can be an opportunity to save lives. Without pools and without that, we are putting children and individuals' lives at risk. For nearly two decades, I had the privilege of being a councillor within Perth and Kinross. I was the chairman of Perth and Kinross leisure for a term, where we promoted swimming and life safety within waters. We have heard today the difficulties of Perth leisure pool. It must be maintained and retained, but at present it hangs by a thread because of funding issues that are coming down the line. There will have to be serious questions asked in the future. I also had the privilege of being the convener of community safety for four years. We worked hand-in-hand with emergency services to do all that we could to publicise and make sure that safety within water was out there in the community. That has done a huge amount to ensure that there are not as many tragedies, but we find today that tragedies are occurring more and more. Recently, within our own region, there was an individual in the river Teith in my region who saw the horrific loss of a popular bright young teenager due to the lack of that. In conclusion, the UK Government has pledged more than £63 million. We have heard that already this evening, a float within England. Swimings Scotland has called on the SNP Government to allocate money provided by the UK Government to prevent swimming pools from becoming unaffordable and unreachable by many within our community. In a press release sport Scotland's body talked about the cross-party support for backing swimming pools in Scotland, and that must be looked upon and kept going forward. We will do all that we can to ensure, but it has to be said that that money needs to be translated into what is happening here in Scotland. Consequentials should be there to save and survive the pools. I echo the points that the minister made already to ensure that you acknowledge that in your summing up. Protect and save our pools, minister. You have a right to do so. I thank Liz Smith for lodging her motion and securing this evening's important debate. Much has already been said about the benefits of learning to swim and of swimming itself—physical, mental and emotional benefits to individuals, but also social and community wellbeing benefits for wider society. I want to focus my remarks this evening on the campaign to save bucks, burn swimming pool in Aberdeen. The much-loved community pool closed its stores at the end of April this year, after Aberdeen City Council cut sport Aberdeen's funding by £700,000. I'd like to thank and pay tribute to the excellent work of the save bucks, burn swimming pool campaigners. They have worked tirelessly since the announcement of the closure in March, springing very quickly into action, bringing people together, getting information out to communities and getting organised. They took early steps towards bringing the pool into community ownership through a community asset transfer. They got thousands of people to support a petition to save the pool. They organised rallies and meetings. Alongside the save Aberdeen libraries campaigns, they also organised for and pursued a judicial review over a failure to consult the public on the closures before any decisions were taken. They did all of this because of that vital role that bucks burn swimming pool has played in so many people's lives. Bucks burn swimming pool, Aberdeen's busiest, provided swimming lessons for children and adults, therapeutic sessions for those with short-term and chronic issues including physical and other disabilities and so much more. Bucks burn amateur swimming club was based there. When it was open, it was the only pool in the city with built-in disabled access. It truly has been such an important facility for so many across the city for so long. The legal action that the anti-cuts campaigners initiated focused on the fact that the city council did not undertake any consultation prior to the decision to close the facilities. There was also not due regard paid to the council's public sector equality duties. No comprehensive equality impact assessment was undertaken or published. Given what we know about the disproportionate impact of the loss of such facilities on marginalised communities, that alone was deeply concerning. It certainly does not foster good faith in or relationships with communities themselves. I am pleased that, following the negotiations in four petitions for judicial review in the Court of Session, the council is now listening to communities and will undertake and publish a full public consultation and equality impact assessment. The Government Law Centre and RGU's Grampian Community Law Centre have therefore, on behalf of the community campaigners, paused their legal action. However, it should never have got this far, and I think that there are clearly lessons for all of us to learn on how we make decisions, how we include people in those decisions and how we work together, as Alexander Stewart was talking about just previously. Presiding Officer, I will close with the words of Kirsty Fraser from the Save Bucksbone Swimming Pool campaign, who issued a rallying cry to encourage people in Aberdeen and further a feel to engage in the consultation process. I hope that this is a positive step in the right direction towards reopening these vital facilities. It will be very difficult for Aberdeen City Council and Sport Aberdeen to justify sticking to the decision to close them when considering the public consultation responses and the equality impact assessments, as the impact to our communities is vast and profound. It is vital for members of the public to engage in those processes and let the council know what the closures mean to them. That is our chance to make a difference. Presiding Officer, we all have that opportunity to make a difference. I hope that the minister will grasp it with both hands when she sums up. I advise that, due to the number of members who wish to speak in this debate, I am minded to accept a motion without notice under rule 8.14.3 to extend the debate by up to 30 minutes. I now invite Liz Smith to move the motion without notice. Can I move the motion and also say thank you to the colleagues who have turned up to this debate? It's very much appreciated. Thank you, Ms Smith. The question is that the debate be extended by up to 30 minutes. Are we all agreed? We are agreed. I now call Megan Gallacher to be followed by Tess White. Ms Gallacher. Thank you, Presiding Officer, and can I also congratulate my colleague Liz Smith for securing this important member's debate? If I may, I will start my short contribution this afternoon by sharing with the chamber that I regularly visit Blantyre leisure centre with my daughter Charlotte. As the chamber might be aware, Charlotte has just turned one and has been going swimming since she was four months old. She loves the water and has taken to paddling her legs in her swimming ring like a duck to water. I want Charlotte to be a confident swimmer and that's why swimming pools are so important. Swimming is a vital life skill and, without our swimming pools, children and young people's lives are put at risk. Talent would also be stifled, as Liz Smith has already pointed out. Right here in Scotland, we have developed talent who have gone on to become some of the most successful, well-known Olympians and decorated GB medalists. That's why we need to save our pools, to develop and nurture sporting talent, but most importantly, to save lives. Recently, I went back to the Sir Matt Busby centre in Bellshill, where I first learned to swim. I was one of the fortunate school pupils in North Lanarkshire to have benefitted from free swimming lessons during my last year in primary school, something that has been long cut due to reductions in council budgets. Budget cuts have devastating consequences on our communities and, if the Government cannot find a fair settlement for councils, I fear the number of public swimming pools will close for good. I would like to finish my contribution today by talking about a fantastic bunch of parents and talented young people at the Bellshill Sharks Swimming Club, founded in 1968. Having had the pleasure of attending one of their swimming sessions, speaking to young people who showed me their medals that they had won during swimming meets and, of course, the history of the club that they are so proud of, parents told me at how much personal time they gave up in order to fit in training and the various competitions that their children participate in. The club is a community, and it gives young people more than just a vital life skill. The club brings a sporting hobby, friendship, but also routine and discipline. It was not long ago that the Bellshill Sharks were worried about their home in the Sir Matt Busby centre that may never reopen. That was during the pandemic, and it took pressure from myself and other councils at that point in time before the council would confirm that the centre would, in fact, reopen. However, that threat is still there because North Lanarkshire councils had to find £68 million worth of cuts over the next three years on top of the £228 million of cuts over the last decade. The fact of the matter is that there is nothing left for councils to cut. That is why you are seeing councils up and down the country making painful decisions that will have detrimental impacts on our communities. I think that she is right that councils up and down the UK are facing cuts, but does she also accept that the rising energy bills for pools particularly is a specific concern and also, as I mentioned, the flow of rain costs? Absolutely. I do welcome and acknowledge the points that Fulton MacGregor is making this afternoon, but, when I am talking about the instance in terms of Bellshill Sharks and the Sir Matt Busby centre, that was during the pandemic. The council was, at that time, citing budget cuts and perhaps not being able to reopen because of the pandemic and budget cuts combined. The Sharks are just one example of clubs across Scotland who will be worried about the future of their club should councils be unable to keep their facilities open. That is why I am backing my colleague, Gledds Smith's motion tonight and our Save Our Pills campaign. Thank you, Presiding Officer. Thank you, Ms Gallacher. I now call Tess White to be followed by Alexander Burnett. Presiding Officer, I too thank Liz Smith for securing the time for this evening's debate. I was involved earlier this year in the fight to save Buck's Burn Swing pool after Sport Aberdeen's devastating decision to close it. That decision, a result of funding cuts by Aberdeen City Council, was taken without consultation and without equality impact assessments.  Only now, months after the axe came down, are we likely to see a full formal consultation on the closure because of legal challenges prepared by the Govan Law Centre and Grampian Community Law Centre. The surrounding community rallied around this beloved facility and I pay tribute to save Buck's Burn Swimming pool campaigners such as Kirsty Fraser and Genevieve Wheeler-Melvin for their incredible efforts to keep the pool open and Dr Mark Brown, President of Buck's Burn Amateur Swimming Club. Too many people in decision making positions forget or are oblivious to the benefits of public swimming pools. The reality is that councils look at facilities like Buck's Burn through the lens of balance sheets and financial liabilities.  Another woman shared with me that she has a rare kidney disease and that the water provided a weight bearing exercise for her. One man had two replacement knees and finds walking difficult, so he needs the pool to exercise and build up his strength. And not to mention the opportunity for children to learn essential life skills to keep them safe in the water. Hundreds of children were learning to swim at Buck's Burn before it closed. There's a wider story about the state and provision of council funded leisure facilities elsewhere in my region. In Dundee, and I noticed there are no labour MSPs here today or SMP MSPs, so in Dundee a story saga of ineptitude and dither has led to a city's flagship Olympia swimming pool closing for two years, only nine years after opening. Meanwhile Dundee city council is spending more than 100 million pounds replacing two schools with swimming pool facilities. Braveview academy and Craigie high school, but there are no plans for a swimming pool at the new east end campus. Presiding Officer, the UK government announced a £63 million fund for struggling swimming pools in March 2023. The Scottish government received Barnett consequentials as a result, yet we're still in the dark about how this money has been allocated. I do hope that Maggie Chapman, who speaks so passionately about Buck's Burn swimming pool, can influence her SMP colleagues and spend the money that they receive from the UK government to save Buck's Burn swimming pool. The social, emotional and health-related value of our swimming pools cannot be ignored, and I urge the Scottish government to step up to save them. Thank you. I thank my colleague Liz Smith for bringing forward his debate. Given the time, I will refrain from repeating the points that have been made, other than to say that swimming is a vital life-saving skill. In my constituency, I have heard from adults and young people who are devastated but more and more north-east swimming pools face closure, all due to councils being underfunded by the SMP government. This issue raised it head in the north-east, with Aberdeen cities, Buck's Burn swimming pool, which was closed in April. We've heard from many who are fighting to have it reopened. As my colleague Tess White was alluding to, it's disappointing that there is no representation from the north-east on the Labour or SMP benches here. Over 900 children were enrolled in swimming lessons at that pool, and it's the only pool in Aberdeen that had built-in disabled access. Within my constituency of Aberdeenshire West, many swimming pools have seen a significant reduction in hours. The pool at Arford community campus has had sessions slashed and timetable changes on an almost weekly basis. Last month, I launched a petition to save north-east swimming pools, calling for the Scottish Government to fully fund live-life Aberdeenshire, to ring-fence funding from Westminster for swimming pools and leisure centres, and to reverse for cuts currently taking place. So far, my petition has been signed by nearly 400 supporters. However, we have yet to receive a commitment by the SMP Government that the additional money that we will receive through the Barnett formula after the UK Chancellor announced 63 million pounds of support for swimming pools will see Scottish pools get their share. In response to one of my constituents, the Scottish Government stated that it has increased the resources available to local government in 2324 by more than 793 million, a real-terms increase of 376 million or 3% compared to the 2223 budget figures. I raised a figure with Aberdeenshire Council, and neither they nor COSLA recognise those figures, nor can they work out how the Scottish Government came to that figure. I would appreciate an answer from the minister about the funding in writing to clarify the calculations or provide an apology for misleading constituents. As we have heard today, it remains clear that the cuts to local councils have real consequences, and it is time that the SMP gave councils their fair share. I thank Liz Smith for bringing this motion to the Parliament this afternoon, and to those from across the chamber who have contributed. I know that the subject is absolutely one that we all feel very passionately about and quite rightly so. I want everyone, regardless of their background, to be able to benefit from sport and physical activity. We believe that every child should be given the opportunity to learn to swim. It is absolutely a life skill, and that is why we have been working with Scottish Swimming, Education Scotland, Sport Scotland and Scottish Water to develop interventions and approaches to provide opportunities for children to become confident, safer and competent swimmers. We will be aware that we do not make any lessons statutory in the curriculum for excellence, but I will go on to explain to you what we are doing to pilot delivery models, which hopefully will find a way to ensure that those from the most deprived areas in Scotland can benefit from swimming lessons. The delivery model pilots have been taking place across 22 to 23, with four different models of delivery, each piloted by one local authority. Those pilots have been focused in some of the most deprived areas in Scotland. They have now been completed and an evaluation is currently being undertaken, which will be published in September. We plan to work with Scottish Swimming and with Sport Scotland to take the learning from these pilots and to consider the best approach for a continued roll-out of a national framework for school swimming over the coming years. We also are continuing to work closely with all relevant organisations on water safety to explore opportunities to collaborate and to help to reduce incidents. We want to raise awareness, particularly among those who are most at risk. We are working with anglers and paddle boarders. It was positive that the latest figures from the water accident incident database indicate that accidental drowning fatalities in 2022 decreased in Scotland compared to 2021, which was a particularly devastating year. The debate motion also recognises the importance of swimming pools in attracting and developing talent. Outstanding performances from Scottish athletes on the world stage have demonstrated that Scotland's approach to performance sport is delivering against agreed outcomes. I was privileged to watch our athletes compete at Birmingham Commonwealth Games last year, where they won an incredible 13 medals. Most recently, Scotland won 11 medals at swimming in the Trimbaygo Commonwealth Youth Games, with seven for Matthew Ward, three for Holly McGill and three for Evan Davidson. Those fantastic achievements bode well for the future. I am very grateful to the minister for giving way, and I know that she is very passionate about that success. Can I just put it to her that the Olympians are very strong about this point when it comes to local swimming pools? Could the minister just clarify this point about the Barnett consequentials? As my colleagues have said, we do not have clarity about where that money was allocated. One of your colleagues at finance questions today said that it has been allocated. Could you just clarify as to where that money has been allocated? I think that everyone in this chamber is well aware that the money that comes in the Scottish block grant—we did get £5.816 million in consequentials from that investment by the UK Government, but that money goes into the block grant, and then it is the decision of Scottish ministers on how to allocate the resources available to them. You can see that in Scotland we make different decisions. That is why in Scotland we have seen an increase in funding to our local authorities, whereas in England we are seeing multiple local authorities going bankrupt. I am very grateful, but I want to get to the actual facts on this. As I understand it, the money that she is talking about was specifically for swimming pools. Did it go to the swimming pool allocation? That money went into the overall Scottish block, and decisions were made by Scottish ministers on how to allocate the resources as they are every year. I will need to meet progress. I thank the minister for giving way, and I won't take too much of her time. Can I just clarify so that no money went into swimming pools in the block grant? Is that what the minister is confirming with us this afternoon? As the member is aware, the swimming pools have the responsibility of our local authorities to fund, and the local authority block grant was increased this year by 3 per cent in some councils such as West Lothian. I know that you did not mention once that it was a Labour council, so I can understand your shame on that front. However, in West Lothian, Labour council, in coalition with the Conservatives, got 4.5 per cent increase in their funding revenue. That is where the money has gone. The money has been allocated, as it always is. A spending decision in England does not mean that we spend the money the same way. We adequately fund our local authorities, as you can see, in the fundamental difference in the number of local authorities going bankrupt in England and none in Scotland. The debate motion recognises the importance of swimming pools in attracting and developing talent. I must admit that the fantastic achievements of the young people of Scotland bode very well for the future, but we all agree that the appropriate facilities must be in place to provide the opportunities. Can I get a clarification? Is the only West Lothian council closing the swimming pools or is that happening everywhere else in Scotland? I totally agree when you said that there are a lot of swimmers and all the swimming pools are positive, but closing all the swimming pools in every council, are we not stopping future champions in Scotland? In West Lothian, let me be absolutely clear, the total revenue support provided to West Lothian council was £405 million, an increase of £17.2 million, significantly larger than those Barnett consequentials, 4.4 per cent, the second highest in Scotland, and they are closing three swimming pools in England. There have been 400 swimming pool closures since the Tories came to power. If the members will allow me to proceed, we might be able to get into a mature discussion about some of the challenges facing the sector. Swimming pools and leisure centres, as we all acknowledge, are often at the heart of the community an opportunity to bring together families, providing a place for those who are recovering from injury, to exercise safely, offering regular clubs and activities that develop friendships as well as confidence and skills, and presenting the opportunity for athletes to progress and to achieve success. Those community hubs make a positive contribution to building healthier, happier and stronger communities, but we all know that local authorities are operating under very challenging financial circumstances. In some cases, pools have closed or are under threat. Rising energy costs have had a significant impact. We know that the increased expenditure puts pressure on budgets and can mean that other improvements, including energy efficiency, must be delayed or abandoned. Since we are all agreed that the impact of increasing energy costs is the root of the challenge that swimming pools face, I wonder if we can also all agree that it is disappointing that the UK Government decided to exclude community leisure from the energy bills discount scheme. That would have fixed the problem at source. We need a sustainable estate, one that is focused on the needs of people that is energy efficient and that is accessible. That is why Sport Scotland is supporting Scottish swimming to undertake the Scottish Swimming Facilities project. It is a detailed piece of work to accurately understand the current pool provision and the life cycle and to predict the landscape in the short, medium and long term. The Scottish swimming facilities project has three phases. Firstly, provide a high-level update on the change since the ticking the time bond report was produced in 2001. Two, provide good practice guidance on creating a more economically and environmentally sustainable swimming pool estate. Three, work with pilot local authority areas to implement the guidance to demonstrate the future sustainability of the swimming estate. We need to ensure that any investment, particularly at a time when public finances are under so much pressure, ensures sustainable facilities in the right places to serve their local communities' needs. We need to have a mature conversation if we truly want to safeguard our estate for the long term. The Scottish swimming facilities project will help to provide some of the evidence for future decision making. For our part, the Scottish Government has increased the resources available to local government by more than £793 million in 2023-24. That is a real-terms increase of £376 million or 3 per cent. Local authorities are independent corporate bodies. It is for them to manage their own budgets and to allocate resources available to them, including on-leisure facilities, based on local needs and priorities. We will continue to work in partnership with local government to ensure that the people of Scotland continue to receive the high-quality public services that they expect and deserve. As minister responsible for sport, I am committed to working with the sector to consider how we best provide support to ensure sustainable and accessible facilities.