Abitwela Kundulse has supported independent tech news directly for five years. Be like Abitwela Kundulse. Become a DTNAS member at patreon.com slash DTNS. This is the Daily Tech News for Wednesday, July 10th, 2019 in Los Angeles. I'm Tom Merritt. And from Studio Fieland's Grandma's House, I'm Sarah Lane. In Salt Lake City, Utah, I'm Scott Johnson. And I'm the show's producer, Roger Shane. I think this is the best way people can keep up to date and informed on the context of the technology in the world around us. This is a time in which that is more important than ever. So thank you for spending some time with us today. We are going to dive a little deep into the Nintendo switch in a moment. But let's start with a few tech things you should know. AT&T is enabling its call protect service by default for all new lines in order to block robocalls. Yay, call protect blocks fraudulent calls. It also flags telemarketers as suspected spam and also lets users keep a personal block list of their own. The service has been free, but needed to be enabled manually. AT&T says it will begin now turning it on by default. But any customer can opt out of call protect if they wish. Visa and Andreessen Horowitz are investigating a, or sorry, are investing in fellow Libra Association member Anchorage Omnimetric Blockchain Security System. Something Tom could explain better than I will. Anchorage does not use user names, passwords and email addresses or phone numbers to secure its cryptocurrency transactions. Clients white list devices held by employees. A transcription, excuse me, transaction is reviewed by AI. That being our artificial intelligence and Anchorage staff for validity. Then a two thirds quorum of coworkers must approve the transactions. Very human based security. Tuesday, US Commerce Secretary Wilbur Ross announced his department will start issuing licenses to sell to Huawei, quote, where there is no threat to US national security, though we don't know which products will qualify. Apparently some will. Huawei will remain on the entity list. In a separate speech, director of White House National Economic Council, Larry Kudlow said non security critical components would be allowed to be sold to Huawei for a limited time. So that makes it sound like we'll let them get some prior parts for a little bit and see how it goes. This, of course, after a meeting with China on June 29 when the US president said that the restrictions would be eased is our first official follow up on those remarks. The US FCC passed an order that lets federally recognized tribal nations claim unlicensed educational broadband services or EBS spectrum over their lands before competitive bidding begins. Qualifying organizations have 90 days to learn details followed by a 60 day application window that starts December 10th. mural.net mural net rather.org has a system to help tribal nations navigate this process. Thanks to Deborah for pointing that out to us on Twitter. That's good. Good to know. And the link will be in the show notes at daily tech news show.com if you need it. All right, let's talk a little bit about YouTube. What are they doing? Scott? Well, the announced changes to its copyright claim system, which seems maybe good just in the surface, but let's see what this is about to manually file a copyright complaint or claim. Now a user must include timestamps of the infringing material. This is actually going to help me a lot as a content creator. And I may explain why if we have time. Repeated failure to provide accurate timestamps will lose you the right to the filing system. Respondents to claims can use YouTube's editing system to remove the offending parts or swap out music. The new rules do not affect automatic claims as a result of the content ID system. Yeah. So to me, it doesn't fix the biggest problem, which is content ID, misidentifying things. But this is going to keep some abuse of the system under control because you have to point to exactly what is offending. It also helps if you get a claim to be like, what are they talking about? Which part of my video of me talking? Do they think is copyright infringing? So you can narrow in on just those minutes and it'll help you edit it. In fact, YouTube says they want to create a one-click system. So if you say, oh, just take that part of my video out, you can just press a button and it'll do it automatically. Yeah. Well, I wish what happened and I hope what happens is it becomes easier for me as a creator to know the difference to know when content ID has kicked in and done a thing. And when a manual takedown has happened, the language in the emails is a little different, but not that different. And it's hard to tell. So I did this recently where I ran, we were talking about a story about a popular YouTube, we're doing kids content. We're talking about kids content on YouTube and YouTube kids changing stuff. And actually it's usually something we talk about on this show, but came up on my morning show. And as we discussed it, we showed part of this channel and not very long, just a little brief video clip of a game that we're playing or something. It's just a public channel, a very popular channel, some kid named Ryan and his parents. And so we watched that for a second and then moved on. And as soon as I posted the YouTube video, boom, sniped out of midair, gone, down.  I didn't say that, but they really told me why and told me that it was infringing upon this particular material. Ryan can now not go to college. Yes. So I had to go back and it wasn't even audio. It was literally like a 20 second clip of video, which if anything is a promotion. We weren't down talking bad about it. It's also absolutely fair use. You were commenting on the video and showing it as a part of your commentary. There's an educational use. You're not undermining the commercial. You've, you've, you've meet so many factors. But that's why offering timestamps is something like this does not solve the underlying problem, but it does at least give more context to certain things that could be disputed. Yeah. That's my thinking too. I mean, it's a step in the right direction, but I think Tom's right. It doesn't really solve the big problem because I think content ID was in charge of yelling at me about Ryan. Yeah. And not somebody who found it out. Yeah. And they did it so quickly. Like it was right after I posted the video. So I know it was content ID. Plus I don't think they would have cared. Honestly, if you'd ask Ryan's family, hey, do you care if we do a 20 second non sound version of this thing to talk about the news story about your cool channel? Is that a problem? They would say no. Even then though, content ID would catch it and it's still being hot water. So it's such a double-edged sword.  Well, the Raspberry Pi 4's USB-C port doesn't work with all charging cables at least. It does work with some of them due to varying implementations of the USB spec. Here's what seems to have happened. The Raspberry Pi's USB-C port shares a single resistor between two of its pins. Now, the spec calls for one resistor for each pin. For whatever reason, Raspberry Pi designed it like, well, this resistor can handle it. We're just going to let it handle these two pins. Unfortunately, that means E-marked USB-C charging cables meant for laptops fitted with USB-C Thunderbolt ports like, say, the MacBook have a chip that detects devices and manages power draw. These E-marked cables consents that there's one resistor on both those pins and therefore identify the Raspberry Pi as an audio adapter accessory and don't send power. Raspberry Pi's ebb and up until Tech Republic, the issue will be fixed in a future board revision, but that means you're going to either have to wait to buy a Pi 4 or swap out the board if you have one already. Ars Technica reports that that new board revision is expected in a few months. In the meantime, the workaround is to use a charger that works. Raspberry sells a charger, and that one definitely works, but you may have another charger that doesn't do the sensing that's not as smart as some chargers, and in which case it should work just fine. But this, to me, just points to the further evidence that the USB-C spec is a little bit of a mess in its implementation, and Raspberry shouldn't have been able to diverge from the spec and still call it USB-C, honestly. Yeah, the whole USB-C Thunderbolt, what works, what doesn't.  That's just what I'm doing because I got to work, and I think especially with the Raspberry Pi folks, the idea of being able to be very nimble for very cheap is a huge selling point. The idea of having various cables that may or may not work is totally counterproductive to the whole operation. Yeah, and I've been a big fan of USB-C since its implementation mostly just because the connector goes both ways. It was like what Apple did with Lightning, but better because everyone's using it. It was a much more, you know, industry standard sort of thing, and it would power everything from, well, power and do video and do high-speed data transfer and all kinds of crazy stuff. Like it's been this exciting advancement in I.O., and then you hear about how messy it's been with people adhering to the spec. It bums me out because I love to charge every, I love to be able to go, well, I need my switch charge. Cool, no problem because here's my MacBook charger. It's already plugged in. I'm going to use that, and I'll guess what else? The controllers need charging and slowly getting rid of micro USBs, which really are the worst things ever made. And let's get to this cool new standard, but to find out this stuff is kind of a bummer.  I have a 2.  I'll wait for the revision because the next Raspberry Pi I get, I want to go nuts with an arcade thing I want to build, and I'm definitely not going to get it until they've said they've done the revision. I don't want to use anybody else's. There's some Arduino stuff. There's some other brands I could go with, but I really like Raspberry Pi. So I think I'll wait until they revise it. Let's talk about Lord of the Rings. Specifically, Amazon Game Studios announced it's developing a Lord of the Rings MMO in partnership with Leu's Athlon Games. It'll be a free to play title for PCs and also consoles. This is the same game that Athlon announced last year as being developed with an unnamed partner. Now last year, Athlon described the game as being set long before the events of Lord of the Rings with people and creatures never seen before by fans of the Tolkien universe. The description is similar to an upcoming Lord of the Rings TV show being developed for Amazon Prime Video. So I have a lot to say on this, and the main thing is there's one community that's a little bit up in arms about this, and we can discuss or not why if they should be or shouldn't be, but fans of the existing Lord of the Rings MMO called Lord of the Rings Online, or Lotro by people who play it, has been out since 2007 and has a pretty robust, it's not the biggest MMO on the market, but a pretty robust following. This is a game that started as a subscription game, went free to play later, and it's still a thing people can play today. They, them hearing that, oh, someone's going to take this IP and make a whole nother game from a whole nother studio with a whole nother partnership, to them it sounds like it's happening on another planet and they had no say in the matter, but if you get away from that a little bit and look at what's actually happening here, this is Amazon's first actual rubber on the road game project that we can look at and go, this might actually get finished and done. There's been a few false starts, been a few little studios internally that were working on stuff that went away, but Amazon Game Studios was a big deal when it got announced. There was a lot of money, a lot of backend acquisition of Twitch, like there's a lot of stuff in their favor, and now that we're going to finally get something, having it being based on a big IP like this is kind of cool, like I personally am excited, but I'm also not invested in Lord of the Rings Online, which will presumably continue. There's no sign of that ending, so I guess we can just decide which one we like better, players and everyone will be okay with it? Yeah, I sometimes fail to sympathize with people who are not having anything taken away from them, being mad that something else is being added somewhere else, which is what seems to be going on here. Perhaps they should be calling this a Middle Earth MMO. If it's taking place long before the events of Lord of the Rings, then it's not really Lord of the Rings, right? People and creatures not even the same. Yeah, and that's the same with the Prime Video. So this is going to be different creatures, different characters, different locations than Lotro, and Lotro will continue to be set in the world as described in the three novels of the Lord of the Rings trilogy. So I don't see that that's a problem. On the other hand, I can get where like, oh, I want to have access to all of the Lord of the Rings game, and I thought I did by being a Lotro subscriber, and now there's going to be this other thing I have to subscribe to. So here's what I suggest. A meta game that rules all of the MMOs, and in the darkness, binds them. Can we call the Ring? Just the Ring? Okay. All right. I think that's not a bad idea. The thing is, Turbine, you started the game, it's now a different developer even runs it. There have been six publishers, we're now at Daybreak Games, started at Turbine. Like, that's a weird place right now. But also, let's just not forget, MMO players are a very distinct brand of gamer. They are very dedicated to the thing that they've sunk hundreds of hours into, and possibly a lot of money. And so I kind of get where they're coming from. It's the kind of business that drives people to be very protective and very careful about this. So one subscription to bring them all, one subscription to find them. There you go. Well, and your point, Tom, is like, nothing is being taken away from anybody. So the outrage is not necessarily warranted. I totally agree. At the same time, I think, okay, well, the Lord of the Rings franchise maybe wouldn't get me upset. But if I think of it being Star Wars, someone's like, well, there's just people and creatures that were even a longer time ago and farther away. I might be like, well, what? No, that's not new. You're ruining this. That's the Old Republic. If the Old Republic MMO was still popular, and then you had more popular than it is, I guess. And then you had somebody create an MMO set in the Force Awakens universe with the people in the Old Republic. Exactly. Yeah, it's like, who are you to do this? But I don't know. Sounds like a fun game. Yeah, it should be. I mean, it's Amazon finally gets to strut their stuff and see what they're talking about. Speaking of strutting their stuff, Android Q beta 5 launched Wednesday for Pixel Devices. It's the fifth of six beta releases that we expect to see before the final. Android Q uses gestures. If you didn't realize this already, they talked about this at I.O. So they're replacing back home and recent apps with three new gestures. Beta 5 adds another gesture, swipe up from either corner to launch Google Assistant. So there's some other button-like long press stuff that need to be replaced. This is one of them. You'll get two L-shaped indicators appearing in the corner in some cases to guide you in the swipe. Also, the back gesture has been swiping from the side, but that conflicted with swiping from the side to get the navigation panel. They had a solution for that that included two swipes, but they've changed it in beta 5. You can now tap on the side to get the nav drawer to peek out, then slide the nav drawer out. So sliding from the side is just the back gesture now. This has changed from the way they announced it to Google I.O. and some developers are a little miffed about that because they've been designing their apps to accommodate this new Android Q gesture that they've now changed. Google also announced that its gesture system will not work with third-party home screen launchers at the launch of Android Q. Virtual buttons will appear in those cases, although Google does plan to fix that issue after the launch of Android Q. If you use a third-party home screen launcher, you won't be able to take advantage of the gestures on it at launch. Wow. I mean, I guess this... We've been on this path for a while with phone makers, and certainly Google's one of them, trying to end the software side of it, trying to figure out a way to get rid of home buttons. No more buttons. Let's have as few buttons as possible. Let's use all our screen real estate, and turns out that's hard. There's difficulty on the road. Yeah, I actually like gesture systems, and I think Google's doing, generally speaking, a very good job of implementing it. I actually like the tap for the nav drawer much better than what they had before, where you had to remember how many swipes you'd done. This is a much better... I'm glad they changed it. On the other hand, I get the frustration of, really, we went through four betas with that way. We're designing our apps, and now you change it, like, right near the end, but better now than, I guess, in the sixth beta. If you want to get all the tech headlines each day, about five minutes... Oh, sorry, Sarah. We lost, Sarah. Oh, okay. I was just going to say... Oh, you did. Yeah, we got a little bit of lag on Sarah's line, so we will catch up with you in a second. But, folks, if you want to get all the tech headlines each day in about five minutes, be sure to subscribe to DailyTechHeadlines.com. Nintendo announced the new Switch Mini handheld game console. A lot of people are like, hey, it could also be called the Switch Lite or the Lite Switch. Get it? The Switch Mini is what it's really called. It has a 5.5-inch screen, so it's a little bit smaller than the original Switch's 6.2-inch screen. Also slightly lighter, 0.61 pounds versus the original's 0.88 pounds. Controllers are not removable, and there's a typical D-pad now.   It does have a USB-C port, but that port will not support a TV output or TV dock. The Switch Mini also doesn't have a kickstand, which part of me has wondered why they didn't do that. I guess for cost, maybe, but if it's meant to be mobile, the kickstand would be kind of cool. Nintendo claims the Switch Mini will get 20% to 30% more battery life than the original, so that would equate to about three to seven hours of battery life, depending on what you're playing. Switch Mini goes on sale September 20th for $200 in yellow, gray, or blue. Scott, are you excited? I am super excited. Now, let's just say this. Okay, let me go back a little bit. Big fan of the Switch. Love it. It's been a huge success for Nintendo. It was the right thing at the right time. A gigantic comeback from the otherwise disappointing Wii U generation, if you won't even call it that. And they've done nothing but great things with it. This is exactly what Nintendo does. They iterate in this way. They'll have a very successful device, especially in the handheld market. They did this with the Nintendo DS many years ago and was very successful out of the gate. And then, I don't remember how long it was, a year or two later, roughly the kind of timeframe we're looking at here. They come out with the DS Lite. And the DS Lite was arguably the best clamshell design of any handheld they ever made. It was really, really great. Everything got smaller, tighter, better. Some online capability came later, but it was just a great iteration of that device. They do this all the time. They've done it with Game Boys all the way up till current. And the big difference here is that the Switch and even the name Switch means, or at least how it was described previously, and the way you would use these things, it meant, okay, I can switch between handheld and a television-based regular old home console. That's going away yet. It's still called the Switch. I don't actually have a problem with that. But I think people really should know the difference. You're not going to be able to connect this to your TV, at least not anytime soon. If they come up with a way to airplay style something, or if they're going to make the spec for USB output for video in the base unit, they could do that. They haven't said that. It sounds like they're just focusing on the portability of this device, which leads me to think that they just see this as the successor to the 3DS and they've kind of merged their products. That's probably very smart and all good. All of that being said, I have a Switch. This Switch I have is great. I have no problems with it. It has a bigger screen. It has a lot more versatility. I can stream it. I can capture from it. I can do all the things that I want to do. I will not be able to do those things with this new one, but I still want one. So here's what I hope they do. This is the number one thing I want. And they haven't been real clear about this because it's a different question. But their services are getting beefed up all the time. Nintendo not known for the best internet prowess when it comes to features and friends lists and services. If they're really going to beef those up and one of those is reported to be way better cloud syncing of your saves, then this thing becomes a lot more palatable to people like me because I just soon leave this thing in the dock and take one of these new, like a yellow one because those look really cool. Take that thing with me wherever I go, which will have a better D pattern, as you mentioned, and sync with my saves. Then there's no reason why I can't jump back and forth as it stands right now.  And it's not universal across the device the way Steam or PlayStation is or even Xbox with their cloud saving. So to me, that's the big kicker for those of us who already own one. I'll get one because I need to do it for what I do. But for a lot of people out there that you've already got a switch and you're already getting all you want out of it, I think this isn't for you. This is for people who either held off on the first one because of price or whatever reason or parents who are like, I'm not going to let my kid tear this thing apart, rip controllers off and on, throw it around. What happened to the joy con on the left? I don't know. Here's another 70 bucks to replace it. Like it's kind of a nightmare from a parent's perspective with the current switch. This new thing, way more solid state, one decent package. It's a lot like the 2DS that they made. That's a huge win and it's less money. So I think this is going to be a huge win for them because it pulls in parts of the market that perhaps were on the sidelines on this. But if you're already a switch owner, there is not a lot here other than cool, hot new thing that's a little thinner with all of those caveats I mentioned before. I do wonder why, if there is a cost to allowing the TV output. I wonder if you could sell this exact switch mini, allow USB-C to send TV out and just not give you the dock so that you're like, hey, if you want to take an adapter and go USB-C to HDMI, you can do that. I wonder about that. But otherwise, I look at this and I see people complaining and they're mostly people who already own a switch. So what they're complaining about is, hey, I can't get the exact same switch I have now for less money. You know, okay, that's fair. But I don't think that's all this is. And people in our chatroom are nailing it right now. This is for first timers, like you said, Scott, or somebody who just couldn't afford the $300 and the $100 price drop is just enough for them. Or somebody, I'll be honest, like me, I rarely played my switch on the TV anyway. I put it in the dock mostly to charge. I really just used it on the go. And I almost never took the joy cons off, except when I did the cardboard stuff. So if I were doing it all over again, this might be fine. Well, that's a really good point. I don't have this data, but I know Nintendo does. All I have is empirical data from my friends and people who I follow who use switches. Almost nobody I know is a docked-only switch owner. And only a couple of them occasionally dock. And those are doing it because they want to stream. But most of their playtime where they're just playing for themselves, just the good old fun of having a switch, they're doing it in portable mode. They're taking it on plane trips. They're using it in bed. They're just using it like a portable because it's excellent for that. And the versatility is great. Don't get me wrong. I really love the idea that you can kind of go back and forth. But I'll bet they've got data that shows that millions of owners are primarily using it as a handheld device. And as such, they should service that. They should have a revision that services that. They should have a path for that. And that's what this is. So there are going to be some, there are going to be outliers, but there are going to be some who are like, man, I never even take this thing off. I'm going to pass this down to my nephew. And I'm going to get that new one because I only use it as portable anyway. This is perfect for me. And they'll get the hot, new, slim, newer design, whatever. Got a good D-pad on it for once, that sort of thing. They're going to get all of that and maintain the main reason they like their Switch, which is this is my portable gaming device. So I actually think that that data is not only interesting, but it's good Nintendo's responding to it. Again, I made that up whole cloth because I don't really know if this data exists, but how you would even know if somebody was plugged in or not is almost impossible. But everybody I talked to, you included, used it way more in handheld mode I do than I do in any other mode. And they're responding to it. And they look really cool. And those colors are rad. Like they've got it going on. That's the other reason people are mad, Tom. I want to at least give them a little tiny bit of an edge there and say they all just want what an awesome, new, cool thing Nintendo makes. They're little like Apple fans. They want the hot, new thing.  And so I think we're seeing that come out, but really they just want the hot, newness completionists. But I want the new thing in my life. Got to catch them all, I guess. Yeah. You know, Pokemon. It's right there in the Nintendo verse. Yeah. The other one of the huge advantage I almost forgot to mention before we end this is 20 to 30 percent more battery life is what Nintendo's claiming. That is huge for portable. You're going to make it mobile, right? That makes sense that you, that you want to focus on that. To me, that's worth the loss of screen space. That's worth the loss of some of this versatility or fertility. I don't know to hold it in your lap. There's, yeah, there's eggs in the Super Mario, right? The one last point I want to make before we wrap this up, people in the chat room are pointing out, you can just play mobile games. And with Google Stadia, we were talking with Patrick Beja about all these streaming options that can turn whatever device you have into a game console. And you can, you can now use PlayStation and Xbox controllers with iOS devices, for goodness sake. Why would you want to buy a Switch Mini? And it comes down to because you want Nintendo games. And while Nintendo is slowly rolling out some mobile games off platform, they're always different. They're always meant specifically for mobile.  That's their 100 percent. The content is king for Nintendo. They know that they get a premium for it and you can't get him anywhere else. So all those other ideas sound nice, but you ain't getting Breath of the Wild sequel or any of the stuff Nintendo makes, which, you know, you could argue some of the greatest games ever made. So good luck to you. Well, thanks to everybody who participates in our subreddit.  Submit stories and vote on them at DailyTechNewShow.Reddit.com. We're also on Facebook. If you'd like to join our group and haven't already, facebook.com. Slash groups slash Daily Tech New Show. I see there's something in the mail bag. Oh, you're right. Huh. Okay. Let's look at it. Open it up here. This one comes from Norm. And Norm says, Hey guys, I heard on GDI, Good Day Internet. And you mentioned getting credits for signing or following on Twitch because we're streaming on Twitch now. I'd love to do that says Norm, especially if it doesn't cost me anything. I did a quick try, but I couldn't do it quickly. Maybe you could do a little bit of an explainer. Yeah. Okay. So background GDI or Good Day Internet is the show we do live on Twitch every day before DTNS, including DTNS and after DTNS. And that show is made available as an audio podcast to patrons at patreon.com slash DTNS. Now, if you're watching on Twitch and you want to support that account for free, you can get a Twitch account, get an Amazon Prime account. If you don't already have one, but this is probably for people who already have one, go to twitchprime.com, click to connect your Amazon account to your Twitch account. And then when you go to twitch.tv slash Good Day Internet, you can choose subscribe for free or if you're in the UK subscribe at no additional cost. And they will take money from themselves out of Jeff Bezos pocket and give it to us. It won't cost you anything. You do have to manually renew that every 30 days. They don't auto renew the Prime subscriptions, but it's a way to help us out basically it's taking money out of big tech and giving it to us. Think of Jeff Bezos though. Poor Jeff. If you feel too bad for Jeff, don't do this. And yes, I'm being facetious. Yes, red bumper taxi did it just now. Yeah, thanks everybody who's participated in our Twitch channel. It's really fun to see everybody there. And thanks Norm for the question. Hopefully we answered. And if anybody else has more, please send them in. Also, thanks to Scott Johnson for being with us. Happy hump day, Scott. Where do people find out where you're doing all your good work? Well, if they want to find me and my cool, horribly made Super Mario maker two levels, speaking of the switch, they can find that on Twitter over at Scott Johnson. But also the websites where it's at all the shows I do all the artwork I do everything that's going on is there. I actually have a card game coming out. I have samples on their way that is a brand new from the ground up design card game. Never done one before was dying to do one did all the art, the design, the game rules, all of it. I'll soon have samples on that. So follow that project over at frogpants.com or on Twitter at Scott Johnson. And you may want to get one. I think they're going to be pretty rad. Lots of stuff like that happening. And thanks for having me on as always. Of course. Now, Sarah, I know people are wondering we got your lag fixed. What were you going to say? When?  I don't know. No idea. Okay, there you go, folks. It really wasn't that big a deal. Hey, if you want to get an early look at an interview I did with Professor Loposky about eWaste, it's in your Patreon right now. If you're already a patron, you got it in your Patreon RSS feed. Go check it out or go to patreon.com.slice.dts, scroll back and find it or become a patron and help support independent tech news directly. Do a little more of that funneling of dollars away from the big companies into the small companies and become a member and get all kinds of other member perks at patreon.com.slice.dts. Hey, if you want to send us an email and be part of our mailbag crew, well, guess what? I have an email address for you and it's feedback at dailytechnewshow.com. We're also live Monday through Friday, 4 30 p.m. Eastern, 2030 UTC. Find out more at dailytechnewshow.com.slice. Back tomorrow with Justin Robert Young. Talk to you then. This show is part of the Frogpants Network. Get more at frogpants.com.


Hi. I'm Lonnie Grafman. Hi. Thank you very much. I came to Humboldt seeking an escape from violence and a way to have impact on my community. I didn't fit into society and I wasn't really sure I wanted to. I'm still not sure really. Here I found a community that was really patient with my differences and also helped me fit in just enough to start having an impact. Also here I found kindred spirits like penalties. That was two decades ago. We were both young and a little bit out there and for a brief moment we were both roommates in Namonia Gulch Sunny Bray. Since then I've had the reward of watching her grow. Watching her grow her impacts. Watching her grow her non-profits, sustainable nations, building straw bale homes and earthen plasters with photovoltaic systems with indigenous communities. Watching her grow her, yeah right? Let's clap for that. Watching her grow her beautiful family. Her pedigree, right? Doctor Penelope Stroes. Someday I'll get there. And also watching her grow into this new role as the director of the Indian Collective's Changemaker and Prize Fellowship, which I'm really excited for her to tell us about. In fact, you know, before we get started how many people just clap or yell if you know penalties personally? All right. How about if you're just meeting her for the first time and just for fun? How about everybody? Penelope is our second speaker in a series of speakers and workshops that are part of a competition, a new business model competition here in Humboldt County. I'm really excited to tell you more about it after the talk. But for now welcome back all the way back to Humboldt from sunny Tucson, Arizona. Doctor Penelope Stroes. I should have been down here. I heard people yell that they knew me. I'm like, what? Who's here? I'm so happy to see you and I can't wait to connect after the talk. Let me remember my talk now. First of all, I'll just introduce myself. As I said, my name is Penelope Stroes. My family is Anishinaabe. I'm an Anishinaabe descendant. My family is originally from the Great Lakes. But Yurok Territory raised me. I was raised in Trinidad, California and feel a lot of love and commitment. And my just heart is always going to be here as well. So currently I live in Tucson. My husband's from Tucson, Arizona. And so we're raising our kids in the desert. And then in the summer times, we go back to Anishinaabe country to Wisconsin. And we just rearranged our lives. So we're going to start to be able to spend significant time here every year to reconnecting with the land and people that grew me and maybe everything that I am today. So I'm very happy to be here. Thank you for the invitation, Lani. And I also, I have five children. Three of them were, you know, mostly raised here. One of them, Chetan, is back there. He's going to be my clicker today because our technology is in different locations. And so Chetan is going to, I'm going to be doing this now and again. And that's going to be my son clicking forward for me. So let me open up my notes. Oh my goodness. All right. I'm so excited to be here talking about this with you. So you can click it. All right. So this is how I feel. I feel like the colonial project failed. That might seem, it might feel awkward or maybe a little bit bitter because the colonial project obviously succeeded in so many ways. But the intention was to destroy what had been here and to take its place. As I hope everybody has the knowledge that people have gained already is that colonialism takes many forms. The most obvious part of colonialism is physical colonization when folks come over and take over your land and when genocide happens. But there's many other forms of colonization as well. So there's spiritual colonization. There's emotional and intellectual colonization. And there's also economic colonization. And all of these work together to attempt to oppress people. And I do want to say that I'm going to be speaking to sort of this very disparate like North American indigenous experience. But these, this colonial experience is impacted, is current, is happening all over the world right now. And it impacts us all. The reason why I use these two pictures is, you know, this, who has seen this image before? Yes. So that is a fine example of physical colonization. This is a pile of buffalo skulls, if you haven't seen this image before. Because it was US policy to kill as many buffalo as possible. Folks were encouraged to shoot them passing by on the trains so that they could have a better chance of exterminating the plains natives. So that was a very specific way of taking away a people's ability to provide for themselves. I'm sharing this story with you because context is critical. And history is critical. So this is the most famous image that represents that phenomenon. But just so you know, George Washington intentionally burned the seed houses of the Haudenosaunee people in the northeast. Over here in California, groves of oak trees were burned. So removing a people's ability to provide for themselves is a great way to dominate. But it failed. We're still here. We're still growing, having babies, passing on culture, bringing our cultures back, remembering our connection to our lands and each other, and rebuilding our economies, rebuilding our trade. And it is unspeakably beautiful. I can't see him, so I'm glad he can see me. So, a little awkward note situation going on. So I want to share a little bit about how my personal work has evolved into just sort of this interesting conversation about economy. So all economy means is how people provide for themselves. How you create what you need to live and thrive. How you trade it. How you distribute it. That's all an economy means. Economy and economics is not capitalism. It's not globalized exploitative capitalism. And to be honest, my personal belief is that economic systems are only as good as the values and responsibility and cosmologies that guide them. So you can take pure capitalism. You can take pure socialism. You can take pure communism. And you apply an exploitive, colonial, violent value set and cosmology to any of those economic systems. And then you have a violent economic system. And all of the systems that we function under today, our trade, our infrastructure, our transportation systems, our agriculture systems, all of the systems that, because of colonialism that we rely on today, are all expressions, all of these structures, like literally our physical structures that we engage in, in space and time, are shaped by this sort of violence and history of this colonial narrative. So we seek to flip that. And it takes a form of re-envisioning economies outside of capitalism. But I don't want to lean on that excessively because of what I just told you. Really, what it is is a return of economic thinking and systems thinking to our original values. And that's the work that I'm doing. And I think that work is being done in a lot of different places. Like, this is not just obviously an indigenous cultural thing, but my work is in our indigenous communities. So one of the things that I always draw folks' attention to is, you know, our traditional economies had several things in common. They were bioregionally focused, you know, provide as much as you can for your people within as close a range as possible, build good trade. They were also extensively networked. So there were trade networks running from all the way at the top of Turtle Island down to Chile to Alaska and over the seas. Traditional indigenous economies were highly networked trading systems. They were also, again, expressive of our values and cosmology and our beliefs. I'm going to return to that more deeply because, of course, to me, that's the critical piece. And then additionally, now, what I overlay as far as what we need to analyze is we need to be conscious of our sovereignty and our self-determination as political entities in this world. I'm sure that folks know that Native Nations are Native Nations. So we always have to be aware of that because that political, our political power is regularly, attempts are made to degrade and diminish it on a regular basis. So we always have to be very watchful and aware and conscious of that. And we also need to be intimately aware and speak out that we have to consider equity and justice in all aspects of all of our decision-making. So you can flip it. Yeah, so values and cosmology are the most important thing. So shared values, almost ubiquitously, as far as looking to the past and also contemporarily, is one thing that indigenous communities share whether you are indigenous to Africa, to Europe, to Asia, to the Americas. What all indigenous people who retain their cultures understand is that we live in, we have homelands that are alive and we live in relationship and we are intended to live in relationship to these homelands. So the meaning of that is very important. Because we have these homelands that we're intended to live in deep relationship to, we have a responsibility. Again, literally everything is about relationships. If you live in a homeland that is alive and when I say land, I also mean animals, I mean plants, I mean water, I mean, you know, the land to me when I say land means everything within the land is alive and you relate to it. And maintaining good relationships with this living land is what life is all about. This is what we are responsible for. We are responsible to live in good relationship and maintain good, healthy relationships with our living land and each other. So it's this code, this responsibility that you hold and you carry with you. So all of our choices, all of our system, our infrastructure, our economic choices all have to be made with these relationships in mind. In my tribe's creation story, very literally and physically, relationships create life. For us every, I'm not going to tell you the creation story, but literally everything is a song for us. Every universe, right? Literally for my tribe, everything is an actual literal song. It's this vibration that's being sent out, that's coming to be, it's emerging. And that what makes this plant different than me, different than you, it's relationships. It's the patterns, it's like we're a lake people. So, you know, the water drops, you threw a handful of pebbles in the lake and then you see the different ripples and the vibrations interact with each other in a different way. And it's those changes of the ripples of the pattern of the song that create the differences in all life. So basically in our lives, we can choose to make decisions and acts and say words and think thoughts that create harmonious music and create balance, create good relationships, or we can create discord. And so everything we do ideally, we strive to have everything we do create harmony and not discord. So it's like literally that physical for us. Yeah, so within every economic act, we also need to consider these relationships. Who's it going to impact? Is it going to impact my neighbor's kid? You know, how is this choice going to impact that grove of trees? How is that impact? How is this decision going to impact those huckleberries? Like, we got to make make good choices here. Yeah, so how do you how to live in good relationship? How do you do that? That's kind of a theory, you know, and it depends on who you are. Everybody has different relationships that they are responsible to. Everybody has different lands and peoples and families and and networks to live in good relationship to. So what are some, if I can think of, like how to tell people to have good relationships? Reciprocity, if you take, give back. There you go. If you take, give back to the land and each other. Be generous. Be generous with the land and each other. I, I got into a conversation with somebody that was convinced that greed and hoarding and taking was just human nature. You just are not going to be able, like, you need laws and prisons and police to stop the humans from hoarding and being greedy and taking too much. And, and I, I really profoundly disagree. I feel like the cultures that encourage hoarding are actually the minority. I feel like the majority of diversity of cultures in the world have, we have teachings that, that flipped that script within Anishinaabe traditional culture, for example, and I'm going to be leaning on sharing my traditional culture quite a lot because that's the only one that I can speak of, right?  How, how much you give. And if somebody takes too much, there's so many stories of what happened when humans got out of balance and took too much and then chaos and challenges followed. And we're not the only ones that have those stories. So greed and hoarding are bad. I know it's funny that you got to say this, but in this world, like, it's, can you believe it? Like, can you, can you believe we actually have to say, like, it's like a bleeping revolutionary act that like hoarding is bad. Like, you couldn't really have too much of something that it actually, it's this whole economic system out of whack. I mean, I am so relieved that this is finally becoming a public conversation because I'm not 40 yet, but I'm going to be 40 soon. Kinda on November. I'm like rocking my, I'm, I'm 40 already. Like, but, um, like to even say that out loud, like you'd be called all kinds of names and like, oh, you're anti and being anti capitalist was such a problem. And it's just amazing. Like, and I, so I love to see the conversation. Y'all are like, y'all young people are pushing this dialogue where it needs to go. So thank you very much. In these times of climate change, like, I, so I put this picture up here because this is not a boy show for California indigenous folks. This is like coyote for us. Not a boy show is like the element of mistakes and change and challenge and issues and mischievousness and just illustrates that fact that nothing is predictable in life. But you can't predict anything. And if you pretend you can control things and if you, then you're going to cause some problems if you try to control things too much. You try to dam that big river and control that water flow. You're going to create a lot of toxics. You're going to create a lot of problems. Every, you try to control a human being. You try to control a group of human beings and make everything predictable. You're going to cause a lot of problems. So that's, that's who this guy is for me. And so in this perpetual change that has the power to teach and expand and push and deepen us, we need to be adaptable and constantly be learning. So now we're in this unfortunate position where we're having to learn a lot of things like very, very quickly because of climate change. We're going to have to upend a lot of these violent structures. And when I also, when I say violent structures, yes, I'm thinking about our current economic system. Yes, I'm thinking about our current way we get around, which is based on this sort of violent fossil fuel culture. But I also apply the same principles to our lives. Our relationships to one another, like our family relationships, our intergender relationships. So, you know, a lot of these things, it's, are based on the same phenomenon. So I'm, I speak about them all as one. We got to learn a lot real quick. And what is the ultimate source of knowledge? Our homelands. You know, the, the, the land, meaning the land and the elements and the spirits. Yes, I said it. And the creator. Yes, I said it. And there are things that are infinite inside you. There are things that are infinite. There was an infinite source of knowledge. And the ultimate source of knowledge in my belief is the land that can call us to those infinite places inside ourselves. And that is the real source of new knowledge. So for me, any kind of revisioning our economies has to begin with going out and for me, praying, meditating on the land, making sure that I recognize what plants are growing where, how they're growing, how they're changing. That, you know, anybody that harvests from the land knows this intimately, what I'm talking about.  When you witness and you watch and you relate and you observe creatively with a living earth and all of her creatures, you're constantly learning new knowledge. And that isn't that, that new knowledge. That's what we need to re-vision our economic systems, especially as Indigenous people in my belief. So. Hey, thanks. You couldn't change it, babe. All right. So when I was young, okay, I just check my notes. Lonnie, what's my time? Beautiful. Okay, cool. Any of these things I can like talk about forever. So just, I also did not share something I wanted to share real quick, which is with us, our coming of age ceremony is a requiring of a youth to go out and engage and bring back new knowledge that's then reflected with stories, with old knowledge, with elder teachings with, you know, because it's that combination, right, of like the new and the creative and the different and the change with these foundations, with this foundational cosmology with this, like that dance, that's some power right there. That's some like visionary, powerful stuff right there. I want to make sure I didn't dishonor our elders by forgetting about them. So anybody that studied permaculture, ecological design or ecological architecture or taken Lonnie's class is probably or knows this, I'm sure. Can I get a call out if this feels really familiar? Okay. So yeah, so that's why I got a limb to it. I actually, I graduate, my master's is in engineering and the reason why it started off in physics and ended in engineering and I got so into all of those things because they're like our perfect reflections of like the culture and cosmology that I halt and I just felt amazing that dang these scientists are like, look at what these scientists are saying, holy, like they're they're really, it's all the study of creation, but like scientists just can't talk about the meaning. So you got to put it, you got to put in your own like wisdom there, you know, but the study of creation is beautiful. So yeah, mere natural principles and processes. If anybody wants to, I've dug into this, I actually did my master, my PhD on this. Intimately, I'm going to use some academic term. My PhD dissertation was biocultural engineering design. Should I say that again? Biocultural engineering design, because academia. But because the integration is really beautiful. So and so I have like so much resources on how our traditional architecture and how our traditional economics and how our traditional governance is critical reflected this.  Yeah, learn from the earth. There you go. Had to throw this up here if you haven't seen this already. For real. Okay, you can click it, babe. Okay. So also real critical value. Cooperation and collaboration is always better than competition. I know that I'm speaking for a competition. But you know what I'm talking about though, don't you? It's true. Read that. You watch the nature documentaries and then that talk about and the competition. And you know, and have you ever noticed how the nature documentaries, which I adore, they always talk about conquering, like you have conquered the blah, blah, blah, blah, like I these. Okay, but it's a cool show. So like, we're so accustomed to the language and the thought processes of colonialism. It's wild. So I just anyway. And also this this one boundaries. Here's like an indigenous knowledge piece and value piece that when I actually was teaching at HSU because I taught at HSU for five years was always a challenge for for so many people that boundaries are critical for regenerative practices. Boundaries are critical for good family relationships. Boundaries are critical for good for building good relationships. Remember, the only important thing in our value system to remember is be a be a good relative. But if you come across folks that are challenged by the notion of boundaries, because boundaries have been used to oppress them, be empathetic, right? But I do always feel the need to explain how and what boundaries are healthy. And that we really need to think and analyze. You know, we're all impacted by we're all impacted by boundaries that have been oppressive, because they've been tools of violence. But we need to really question what what what is our intent to pursue whatever we're pursuing and what boundaries are appropriate and are critical to keeping good relationships with the earth and ourselves and our families and our relationships. Boundaries are important. Okay, babe. All right. So now we're getting we're getting out of the these are like values as well, but more into just sort of the structure of how of the values and the intentions and the philosophy that guides everything we do at sustainable nations and Indian. So self determination, no decision can be made that diminishes our nationhood rights or political power or degrades our land base. Critical. Okay, you can change it, but equity and justice. So the people impacted by systems of injustice must be the ones to lead the way to justice. Even if you don't agree with their techniques or the speed at which they're doing so, that doesn't matter. The people most impacted by systems of injustice have to be the ones to lead the way to justice or else it's not going to be a complete justice. So we believe that very deeply. Community must be engaged and invest in they need to be invested in whatever is going on and they need to be invested in. So we're designing this amazing new culturally based community and we're outreaching the people to build the knowledge and build the value set and build the visions that's going to create this new community. Well, if the moms of young children aren't able to come because there's not childcare, if the people that don't have cars can't make it because it's far away or if it's like, no, it's the responsibility of leadership and the folks that are facilitating these things to make sure that folks that need to be there are there and that whatever needs to be done, even if it takes another six months to get the project done, it's worth it. There needs to be mechanized. There needs to be systems of accountability in all aspects, accountability, the community accountability to each other, accountability to the vision. There needs to be in any project design or cool thing you're doing. There needs to be ways of mediating and problem solving and ultimately responsibility. Again, back to the most important thing is good relationships. So accountability is critical. And local decision making. So click. So how do we do this? So I'm sharing you pictures of some of my favorite people and actions and cool stuff. So we can move on. What does this look like? Time check real quick. So I'm going to kind of blow through some of these because I actually really want to get to end the end. So what does this look like? You can apply these principles and practices to small and very, very large scale, small scale, a little brief, little quick example of sustainable nations. When we went when sustainable nations rerouted and went to Tucson, it took us about four years to build enough solid and trusted and nurtured relationships to even begin practicing work there. I sat in ceremony and worked my butt off in community and earned trust and did a lot of consulting for the local tribes before I ever told anybody that I had this nonprofit. Because that's really important. Then when we did tell, we came out of the closet. We had a few dinner parties like to announce, Hey, we actually have this organization. It's a tool to be used this 501C3. And do you think it would be useful in this area and how? And folks were, you know, housing, we want to learn and relearn and rebuild our adobe housing and water rainwater. And so then we did a lot of cool stuff. I'm going to skip through it. Click, click, babe. Click, click, click, click, click, click, youth, youth, click, click. Okay, mid scale. I want to uplift my friend, well, Hala Johns, dinner woman. She started an organization called native renewables. Check them out. They are, they do intensive training. And they kind of do what sustainable nations that they do, they do intensive training and professional development, but specifically in renewable energy. And, and then install solar.  All across Navajo nation. They're also not abandoning people with their solar systems, which is, which was a mistake that was kind of made earlier in the first iteration of these attempts at community solar in these far flung, super rural locations, like we install a solar, we teach folks how to use them. And then, but then like 10 years later, and the batteries need replacing and nobody can afford that. So what do you do? So their entire program is designed to meet those needs, respond to their needs. They're doing it brilliantly and at scale for Navajo. It's beautiful. Great. Okay. A little bit larger scale. And there's, let me just say, I'm sharing like, I'm only able to share a few examples with you. There's so many. When we started in 2004, doing training and project development and built to consulting and like we felt like we were the only ones. And this is happening all over the place now. And it's so wonderful. This is Winona's place when on all the Duke, who knows who Winona the Duke is. Yay. So she's all that she's an issue now as well from White Earth. Their organization, they have a billion things going on, but they have a hemp farm. Check them out. The Anishinaabe and the Anishinaabe Indigenous Hemp Conference just tap into there. And they have Anishinaabe Marketplace where folks from the community trade. They also are building solar thermal panels right now. It's technique that not everybody knows about, but solar heating. This is Minnesota. It's cold. So they actually opened up a manufacturing facility recently, building solar thermal panels. It's called Eighth Fire Solar. A little plug. Look, I'm up. Okay, you can click it, babe. Larger scale. Blue Lake Rancheria is rocking it. They're inspiring people all over the world. I know that there's I know that there's other cool work happening here in Humboldt and Trinity counties that I don't know enough about to speak to. But there's been like these are some of the projects that I've worked on. Kayawakpala is a 600 acre culturally and spiritually designed and developed native community in Rosebud, Rosebud, South Dakota. The Klamath tribes up in Oregon are planning a whole like systematic like regenerative economy that they we did in strategic planning for them on without going through it. I mean, Thunder Valley Economic Development Corporation is also another indigenous regenerative community being built out under a community development corporation. And there we have tribal green building codes. So tribes don't have tribes can develop their own codes. You can develop codes that are not based on punishing and directing, but codes that are really this is the model for what we want all tribal housing to look like. And here's the code for it. And so Panolival Pomo was actually a tribe that was really, really led that their tribal housing prototype is strawberry. It's a round straw bale house with ecological wastewater and composting toilets. And we put in a constructed wetland for them. And, you know, they're just moving it and doing really good things. So folks are folks are applying these at larger and larger scales now. So let's and really, really, really, really, because all of these projects have come to fruition on unconscionable levels of work and partnership building and, you know, hours and hours of heartbreaking tears and struggle. So we need to figure out how to create means and mechanisms for the decolonization of wealth. Let's really start talking about this. So let's change and I will blow through this Lonnie. Am I? Oh, good. I can tell stories about everything. So thank you. We can flip it. All right. So a friend of mine. Now I work with ending. I step back to the Board of Sustainable Nations, because the ending collective is so exciting, because that's basically what it is and what it's working on. I can tell you all the story about how ending collective came to be during our meet and greet, if you'd like. But basically, ending collective is a vehicle to decolonize wealth. Yeah, no, it's pretty, it was very exciting. Our platform is Defend Develop Decolonize. And it actually came, I can tell you a brief thing about how it came about. Nick Tilson, our ED, I've known for quite a long time. He was the director of Thunder Valley on Pine Ridge, the community that was developing as a CDC, a community development corporation. And Nick found himself talking to and lots of people that were the benefactors of like this incredible amount of like the benefactors of globalized capitalism, like folks that have the purse, hold the purse strings to unconscionable amounts of money, people in organizations, and that want to change, you know, said as somebody from, you know, not a wealthy family, like I used to see rich people as these, you know, not quite human, like, and just feel a lot of anger. And then I started meeting more of them. I'm like them. They're people too. And a lot of them want systems change. A lot of them want systems change and a lot of them. So what happens when you hold a lot of money is nobody tells you the truth. And you're surrounded by yes men all the time. And yes, women all the time. And so a lot of these folks, they, you know, a lot of they live in a bubble of their wealth. And some literally, I've had people say, like, how do I invest this million dollars to do system change? How do I, you know, I'm like, I do realize what we've done on with $5,000. Holy, oh, my goodness. And so basically, there are our ed found himself in a lot of those positions and with people wanting to invest. So thus was birth ending collective to move radical decolonial systems change through a couple of mechanisms. So you can click it. We have a philanthropic arm, follow us in this in the media's and check out our website. We're brand baby new. We haven't launched our official grant making program. We have been moving grant money already, even though we're not official, I would love to share our future grant making program because it's going to be like nothing that's happened before it's going to be geared towards actual sustainability. We also are launching a fund and a development program. So this fund is designed to invest significant amounts of resource into indigenous, decolonial, regenerative businesses, organizations, nations, projects, development work, infrastructure change. Yeah. Um, blended capital. So what blended capital means is that we aren't just investing. We're investors and we actually and we can be business partners even. But we also will help find grants, help find other loans, help facilitate and network with any state relationships or federal relationships, we were will work with your vision and help put together funding packages because that's what really moves these big projects, particularly at ending country. And also, you know, help connect people with legal resources and all of the critical things in all of these topics. So we can click it. So we're guided by resilient and regenerative financing principles. We have so hit me up or go to our website. We have our indigenous economic principles that are the philosophy of what we fund and how we fund that I love to share with you.  And I was like, Oh, God, yeah, no. But we have them. So connect with me if you want to read our indigenous environment, indigenous economic principles. If you want to read our resilient and regenerative finance principles, if you're a money person and are wondering how does that work? Hit me up. We got those to share. They're all based on the values I was sharing before. So you can move it forward. We are really quick. We are currently building a toolkit for folks and for tribes and travel communities in some of the deeper layers of how to pull these things off and what it's about. We just made our first loan just as an example. And we're actually if you all know of like a really amazing native indigenous business idea project that needs support, like talk to me. I'd love to share where we're at in our process of lunch.  We just gave them like a six figure loan. We also have an ownership stake in the company. We basically have, you know, we are we are solid partners and technical development and technical assistance connections. So start to finish partnerships. This partnership started with deep connection, a lot of prayers together, a lot of deep relation building work. And that is what's enabling. That's what we believe enables success because we've seen it in the past. So I can't wait to share more about it. I'm so enlivened to be part of this organization. You can flip it, babe. Flip it again. Our new office as a model is fun. So this is this is what it's about. This is my little baby wassia. This is what it's about for us. Decolonize the land, the wealth, reconnect to the land, rebuild our economies. Let's do this. So yeah. Did that resonate with you? You said so many things that I not only want to like, just repeat over and over again, but it's going to make it into our literature review about the competition that's coming up. But I guess I should say that I'm the director of the awesome business collaboration, not the awesome business competition. We're just changing the we're changing the name, changing the website. No, that's that's still the website. And we can, and we can follow up with those with the materials that penalties was promising, we can send if you sign up on the mailing list, I'll make sure to get those sent out. So a couple quick things on the competition. And then penalties is going to be over here for a meeting greet. And then we'll have Kevin, Kevin, can you stand up? Where are you in this room? Okay, you can talk to Kevin. Hi, Kevin, we're clapping for you. You can go talk to you can go talk to him about the competition. A few things I want to say, when you say that we need to flip the script on on economics and that economics is only as good as our relationships and our values. That's the competition we're building here, right? We're going to do that together. There's the one of the reasons that the competition is still really vague is that we're collecting feedback from you so that we can build it together. And then starting, we have our next presentation at the end of April, and then in May, we're going to start workshops together. And then the competition itself won't start until fall. And so, August, September, we'll be working together to build up each other's companies. And then and then at the end in November, we'll have 10 companies, hopefully all winning money. And the top prize is going to be at least $3,000. We hope to give out like $20,000 in prizes. We don't have any of that money yet. So if you have that money, you can give it to me, I'll be over there. I'll be over there. In order to do that, please spread the word. Our next talk is going to be April 28. We'll send it out on the mailing list. I want to give a special thing to our sponsors, HSU, Blue Tech Valley and the Small Business Development Center. Thank you. Thank you all for coming. A really quick aside, I got I got to tell you, you know the cake up, like by Currig below? Okay, you see you already know, right? When you were talking, I was I was reminded how much I love running this competition in humble because we've we already have the values, right? There's this thing called innovation that San Francisco and Silicon Valley see that just isn't the right definition of innovation. They see innovation as anything that can make money. Innovation is anything that makes the world a better place. And we're going to do that together. Thank you for your time.