Hello and welcome to a deep adaptation conversation, me, Jim Bendell. So I used to do deep adaptation Q&As. I think I did about 35 and that was with an audience and that's stopped now because my life is changing. I'm focusing more on what I'm doing here. Regenerative farming in Indonesia, so I'm trying to shift my focus. But I am going to be hosting conversations with people which I'll then release on my YouTube channel when the mood takes me, when I actually think that there's something to share. But that will be driven more by my own personal journey, what I'm interested in now as I change my life more fully, as I deeply adapt myself more. So this is the first of those and I think it's actually quite appropriate therefore that today I'm going to be chatting with Karen Perry. I first came across Karen's work as I was writing chapter 12 of my book Breaking Together. And this is a chapter called The Freedom to Collapse and Grow, The Doomsday Way. And I was exploring in this chapter all the, actually, you could say the upside of collapse, the positive things that people were doing and the massive changes in people's lives because they were aware of societal collapse, meaning the collapse of industrial consumer lifestyles. They were doing all kinds of things. And so this was, some people call it the sort of like the post-do mentality. So there had been the despair, but then there'd been the transformation and a reconstituting of people's lives, what they were doing and making a positive social contribution in many cases. And also in other cases just people being created in new ways. So I wanted to capture that. And when I came, I was watching a Michael Dowd video and Karen Perry was on that video and was talking about the benefits of collapse acceptance, rather than collapse curiosity or collapse awareness or collapse worrying or whatever, actually accepting and letting it transform you. And it was a really good synthesis that I thought this is perfect. So I will put that in the book and then that initiated the dialogue with Karen when my book came out. So thank you for joining me today for this first DA conversation. For the opportunity to get to chat with you and, yeah, explore these benefits some more in Pack About Chapter 12 and it was awesome for me to feel validated that, you know, you wanted to include them in the book. And it really speaks to the whole point in me writing them was not to present a recipe per se for everyone to follow, but for them to be seeds to be picked up and then, you know, transformed into what makes sense to each uniquely. And you did that in Chapter 12 of your book. Yeah. Good. Yeah. And it's, it's a nice aspect of what is otherwise. And will still remain quite, quite a challenging topic. It's not just a topic, it's challenging reality to find new ways of being. So it's lovely to then discover like minds, learn from each other in dialogue. And, um, yeah, and I just like the fact that there's a real boldness, chutzpah celebration in your list of benefits. And I guess it didn't, you didn't just suddenly wake up and think, oh, right, industrial consumer civilization collapsing. Oh, well, great. Look at all these amazing new ways I can feel about the world and this you probably took quite a time to get to this point. Could you say something about your, your relationship to environmental issues over the last decade or two prior to getting to this point? Yeah, that's, that's so true.  Yeah, it started like a lot of people who have been paying attention to, you know, the climate and the state of the world. For me, it was in 2011 when I ended up driving across the United States to go participate with Bill McKibbin and 350.org in the tar sands action, protesting the Keystone XL pipeline and thinking that we had this huge fossil fuel problem. And of course, we needed to switch to renewable green energy. And I thought that that's what I needed to do was go and shake my fist. And, and I did accept. I also on that trip got a big gut punch when I saw the movie and so based on Derek Jensen's book and game. That called out to me for the first time that we had a much, much bigger situation than just a fossil fuel problem. And that we're talking about an entire civilization problem. So, and for me, being a public school educator, I taught in K through eight schools and taught history. Ancient world civilizations rise and fall, rise and fall, rise and fall. Suddenly I went, oh, light bulb. We're not immune either. And so I got to think about all of that driving 3000 miles back across the country with a copy of deep green resistance in my hand. And that was really that just shook me to my core. And then I was with my partner Jordan Perry and we got back to our suburban life and said this is this is doesn't make any sense. We need to start doing something radically different with our lives. So we did. We quit our jobs. We cashed out everything. We moved up to the foothills of the Sierras in Northern California and bought a distressed home on an acre and a half and started our permaculture farm project thinking we were going to be permaculture farmers and try to live a lot less a lot more simply and try to scale down our energy use and and then we took everything we were learning to the streets and it was when Occupy happened. And so we were educating on energy and trying to share that it's not just, you know, about how we power everything. It's that we power everything and getting a tremendous amount of pushback from environmentalists who wanted to think that, you know, we could techno fix our way out of this. Nicely summarized. It's not just how we power things but that we power so many things. Yeah, you got a little pushback. This was so that you mentioned Occupy. So this was the this was in 2011 would be where you were then having this transformation. Yeah. Yeah. And so then through the course of moving here in 2012 and experimenting with living differently, trying so many different things of powering down and trying to grow food and seeing all the pitfalls that come from. Trying to do that and we eventually morphed into more of a food forest idea trying to get away of so many systems and so much top down control and rewilding ourselves in the process. I know you read Ishmael recently so that was a book that crossed our paths back then that really opened my eyes more to, you know, a species story in operating alongside of a civilizational story and that they weren't one in the same. And so trying to get closer to figuring out who I am as a species became really important and and then along the way, you know, I mean the news just kept getting more and more and more dire and things became more and more clear that all the things you outline in the you get all the first whatever eight chapters of your book, you know, all these things kept coming more and more obvious and yet the frustrating part was to see one plus one and then being told it equals three. The scientists are laying out all of this dire information and when you put it together and you understand societal collapse that's always happened again. Rise fall, rise fall. It's been a bit of a waiting game to see most coming out finally and saying what you said in your book. Yeah. Yeah, so. So I've been I've been accepting of this for a while.  Okay. I can still have a life with accepting this dire information. And not only can I have a life, but I can have a life that I love. And then I feel really good about because I am still that warrior doing this, but I'm just doing it differently now. Yeah. And you, I'd like to get us get into the list that you you wrote our and I probably go through them one by one would be good. And then also perhaps share how you're experiencing each of those benefits. And I've actually spent the last couple of days looking at them thinking is this is this relevant for me now? Or am I perhaps not fully benefiting in the way that you list? So it's been quite useful. So I think it'd be good to do that also. So then when I share this with people this video, it can be an invitation for them to perhaps go through the same process. Are you doing that with people? Are you using this in some kind of dialogues with groups? Yes, for sure. I participated in Michael Dowd's post-doom discussion groups for a while and still do on occasion with the collapse acceptance alliance there. But I also started my own women's discussion group called Loom with Grace. That's my acronym for getting real about collapse extinction. And that group has been going for a year and a half. And the benefits are a core component of this group of women from all around the world. And I can absolutely, we have enough time now to say that these benefits transform lives that everybody started out together. Very depressed, very alone, isolated, not knowing how to proceed in their lives. And through, you know, these benefits, it's changed us. We have testimonies. So, and then, you know, I'm hearing, they're just kind of out there now and it's starting to come back. Because to me, that was always the component of the conversation that's been missing. Everybody could talk about all the reasons why things are falling apart. Nobody, and still to this date, the conversation really isn't focused on, okay, so now what? Because it's still been focused on false solutions, far more than wise responses. So, getting to acceptance and seeing that there's benefits when you do all these new doors open. And that's why the first benefit that I have is freedom. And I love that the term freedom is used a lot in your book. Yeah, sure, I'll read that one out. I've actually got them in front. So, the first, let's dive in, yeah. The first benefit is on freedom. You write the move away from shoulds to the open doors of coulds. Get off the hamster wheel to stop building the castle, live where, how desired is possible. So, my question for you there would be why do you think freedom from past preoccupations is what happens when accepting this kind of creeping collapse of modern societies, accepting that it's already begun or accepting it's inevitable? Why is freedom, some people experience? Well, because you start to realize that this thing that you're yoke to that has told you your whole life, you know, all these things you're supposed to do to keep playing the game and playing it well, suddenly don't make sense anymore when you're confronting, you know, a pretty near term crash of both systems as we know them.  I mean, this idea of everything continuing the same way has trapped us on this, what I describe as the hamster wheel. Yeah, I definitely felt, well, I see it in a lot of people, there's a letting go of struggle, whether that struggle to conform, perform, succeed within society as the society we've grown up with, with the values and ambitions, or to let go of the struggle of trying to change that society as fast as possible. So, yeah, there's a letting go of both conforming and some kind of strategic rebelling to change it. It's just like, you can drop all that breeze and then inquire more into, well, what's in my heart? What do I really want to do with my life? What's important? I mean, that that's, so I dropped the story of that I should try and be pragmatic, that it's irresponsible not to be pragmatic and that pragmatic means accepting power as it is. So, you know, big corporations, big government, big institutions, and therefore try and nudge them towards the right direction, try and reform them. That was the story that had shaped my whole career, perhaps even prior to that, when I became an environmentalist in 1988 as a 16-year-old boy. I was immediately thinking, how can I have an influence that matters? And therefore, that took me into thinking about, well, how do we change business and finance? So, yeah, I dropped, I dropped also, perhaps there's a deeper thing here. Deep in my psyche, I had all these ideas that I had to not just unconditionally love myself, but somehow prove myself to be worthy. And that all got mixed up with needing to be respected by people who are respected by society. So often that's senior role holders in whichever field I was working in, university or corporates or the UN or whatever, it was all of that. And a lot of that just crashed. There was a, how can I respect any of this if it's created ecocide and genocide? To hell with a lot of it. It was that. Yeah, and that's really freeing in a lot of respects, you know, to let go of these masks that we wear and these expectations on all of it. So is there any freeing that you still have to do? When you look at these benefits, do you think I'm done with it? I'm free? Or do you think there's still stuff to work on? There's still like ways of falling back into unfreedom and letting the culture that you grew up in show, continue on saving?  I mean, as hard as you try, you have to, you know, you're, you're, we're all caught in it.  But I liken it more to being kind of bilingual. Yeah. Yeah. So I've got this like real kind of feral, wild creature, me, and then I've got the one who, you know, has to keep playing along. It took a while to get a balance of both. I think like it does when you are learning another language. You don't just instantly become bilingual. But I've created a life that has as much freedom in it as I feel like I've worked hard at that. But it's had to be like, you know, I have to, I live small all I don't. I try to not spend a lot of money to be alive every day. I'm wondering, because both you and I, with you doing the writing you're doing, we're doing the writing I'm doing, you're convening people. I don't convene people anymore, but I'm putting out this video. Neither of us have walked away from the wishful idea of having an impact beyond just our neighbors, it seems. I certainly haven't dropped that story. I spent two and a half years doing it. And I'm wondering if that's going to be, are we going to be free of that? I'm wondering whether I'm still a little bit addicted to this idea of wider, broader contribution or whether it's actually part of my freedom. And I don't know that's something, but it's a live question to me, like how much of this intellectualizing and outreach and mobilizing is part of the old story for me. And I don't know what's your thought. And that speaks exactly to the uniqueness of these benefits to each individual to figure out for themselves how they can manifest in their lives. And so, yeah, only you can answer that question, but it's a good one to ask. Yeah, so thanks. Number two, urgency, you're right. No time like the present has never meant more. Take that trip, quit that job, buy that house, do that thing now. So my question, Karen, is this because there's a feeling that major systems could break today? Like a few hours from right now, we'll never be able to chat again on the internet, for example. Is it because of that? Because then some with that sense of urgency might focus immediately on more resilience. So in Germany, they're selling packs for a year. How to survive three months by this pack now.  So what could share your thoughts on what you mean by urgency? Take that trip, quit that job, buy that house, do that thing. That's quite dewy. Yeah, whatever it is that you think you have a whole lot of time to get to, change that way of thinking about it. Collapse acceptance says, my life is now and I need to live it now. And whatever is most important to me to feel complete and full in the life that I have now, there's no other time than now.  And I can't tell anybody what it is for them. I just know for me that definitely got me to change what I was doing with my life and structure it differently so that I could live a more wild and free life and be around more fully for my family. And I can't say if for somebody, if they're like, I really want to go on a trip around the world or I really want to, it's not up to me to decide, but accepting the reality of our predicament is the first step to then really see what you value, what means the most to you. And don't wait. I mean, there's women in my Bloom group who have made drastic changes in their lives. They've quit their jobs, retired early, said, I'm done. They're moving, finding a different place to live. They're grouping up with family and they're not waiting. They're taking that trip that they really wanted to take to go see a child that's far, far away. They're doing it now. A few things come to mind listening to you there. There's some similarities here with terminal diagnoses, isn't there? I know that societal collapse will involve almost certainly premature, meaning that people dying earlier than we might have imagined. So a falling life expectancy. And in fact, in most countries, the world life expectancy has been falling. That's quite some needs. So there's this sort of psychologist calling it more some mortality salience, this awareness of mortality. And would you say that's very much involved here? It's like, oh, wow. Not only the conveniences and capabilities afforded to me by modern society, whether that's travel, whether that's working banking systems, whether that's internet, that might go away. But also my life might end sooner than I thought. Absolutely. I mean, again, one plus one equals two, not three. You make it really clear in your book, probably clearer than anything else I've read to date. You know, between you and Michael Dowd laying it all out there, there shouldn't be any question really that we're in a global hospice situation. I say most days to people have an awesome GHD, Global Hospice Day, because I think we are in hospice. And so it's a really good way to frame how you're living your life. You have a terminal diagnosis. Yes. And of course, lots of philosophers in the past talked about the benefits of living with death on your shoulder. Now, even also Buddha got a Siddhartha sent the same thing. So yeah, I think it's a problem with our culture, modern culture, sort of hiding death away. Yeah, I resonate with this because I prioritise things other than career or savings or my economic security. I moved country and that was because I wanted more possibilities. You know, I couldn't afford to start a farm in the West. It's certainly not in the UK, certainly not a farm school, which is what I hope. That's what I'm trying to do here in Indonesia. Also it meant that I leased land for 15 years. We're going to come to that way. I think there's one or the other thing about time horizons. And yeah, maybe also my adopting a kitten, rescuing a kitten was all part of this sort of changing of values. Yeah, it's funny, but I still have a long way to go with it. So I haven't prioritised my own spiritual path. I know I want to study Buddhism much more and I know I want to get more into devotional music and these things. But I haven't done that yet. So again, as you said earlier, these lists of benefits that you provided us help us think, what have I started and where have I still in this journey?  One of the benefits, you renamed it gentleness, but I call it letting go. It's been one of, I know, one of the biggest ones for the group of women that I'm connected to.  Accepting the reality of our predicament allows us to let go of so much. Yeah, so you mentioned the rewriting. Yeah, so to fit it all on one page in my book form and I wanted just one word for each. But I had a look at how I'd rewritten some of them and to think about why. And I rewrote this one urgently. I rewrote it to just simply do not postpone what's in your heart. And I think looking when I'd compare what I just read out earlier, the way you wrote it to begin with, and this do not postpone what's in your heart. I think I was wanting to avoid the idea that there would be any sort of almost like consumerist, avoid the idea that there would necessarily be any consumerist response to this, that there would be this desire for more, more, more. And this is an issue, isn't it? You've said clearly that it's not for any of one of us to decide how we respond emotionally and practically to accepting collapse. And therefore, you talked about someone taking that trick. I can see how obviously you've heard this from lots of people probably already there can be critics who say, oh, are you inviting hedonistic behavior or hedonistic consumption, which might therefore add to some of the suffering in the world? And so how do you... So that was, for me, I was just making sure there was no implied consumerist ideas here. How do you respond to that when people would say, oh, you... Well, sure, that comes up, right? I mean, my gosh, there's so much hedonism in the world's absent collapse acceptance, but I find it hard to believe that collapse acceptance would actually foster even more hedonistic behavior. I would like to think for many it would soften things a bit and give people a chance to have a different perspective. But at the same time, I mean, we're all on the same sinking ship, right? So if somebody chooses to spend that time high as a kite doing whatever the heck they want, I mean, it's really not up for me to say and it only causes me more suffering to get involved in judging or criticizing or wagging my how dare you finger, it doesn't serve me. And my first objective in all of this is to put my own oxygen mask on and keep myself as stable and balanced as possible so that I can be that for others around me. And so getting out of the blame, shame game is a benefit of acceptance that I've been able to experience. I haven't met many people who say that they believe or know that the collapse of industrial consumer societies is inevitable or already underway, who are then being hedonist, whether that's consumerist or just taking LSD or whatever. I haven't. I think what I see is people who take this predicament to heart can't avoid it affecting them on what they prioritize. Again, in the same way as people who get a terminal diagnosis. And so there is a deeper questioning of all the ideas that we've been given by society about what should make us happy. So yeah, I haven't seen just, I haven't seen people go out and buy a Harley Davidson because they think collapse is on the way. I haven't seen it. I have met one guy who decided to try and have as much sex as possible for a year, but then he got set up with that. So yeah, I guess, yeah, people have to just go, have to sort of, this stuff brings, we're all traumatized by our culture, but also traumatized by our own upbringings in our unique ways. And so this brings up all of that. So there's a lot of stuff to work through, is it? There is. And there's a lot of horizontal hostility where we take everything out on each other. And really, none of us chose this, none of us asked for this. We're all born into this. Yeah, I mean, some people are in my opinion doing egregious things with their life and participating in really making things worse in ways that for me, I can't do that. It doesn't feel right for me. But I also can't put that pressure or blame or whatever on somebody else because we're all going down one way or the other. It's all crashing one way or the other, whether you get that Harley-Davidson and ride it around or not. Again, yeah, not my choice, but we have to be able to say we need to give each other room to be who we each are. And my again, thinking is that if more and more and more people really understand, Jim, what you wrote in those chapters of your book and what you and your colleagues have put together, then the conversation has to automatically shift to how can we collapse well together in a way that is more just and equitable for everyone. Yeah. If more and more people. I like the way that you see that as rational as well as compassionate and that you'll also not bring the judgmentalism. Thank you. So, number three, we've got 15 to get through. We probably need a second chat. Could we just try and do them all? Could we might take us about another hour if you've got an hour? Then let's see if we could go. We could try, sir. All right. Say number three, parameters. Playing the game with a different framework and lens. Preemptive medical procedures, tax penalty concerns. For me, this is a bit more straightforward. I have a tiny pension from my 11 years of being a professor at a university where the only time in my life where I had a regular salary, I've now taken voluntary severance, so I left that job alive. So I logged in to look at my pension or whatever. So yeah, and you, how are you playing the game this big? Well, for one, I'm not putting any pressure on our adult children to go out and have to get that nine to five job and become slaves to the machine. And I see the game a lot differently for them. And I want to offer them as much freedom and opportunity to, you know, enjoy their lives while they can. So that's a really important way for me as a mom. Our kids are in their 20s and they are living as more wild and free. And I feel really good about that. So that's one. They were parented by you with this understanding that you had because this understanding of you started in 2011. So they've been influenced by this philosophy. They marched in Occupy. They've participated in the experiments here and living differently of powering down and not having hot water for six months. And yeah, they've been a part of this. They can't not have been influenced. And but also I don't take all the credit because they get it also on their own. I mean, a lot of the youth of this world are very awake and aware and paying attention. And they see a lot of what you wrote in your book. Economics, you know, big time in their faces. And, you know, it was really interesting when my conversation with Michael Dowd came out. I had the oldest watch the video. He was, I don't know, 25 or something at the time. And I said, Oh, so you watched it. What do you think? And he said, I don't get it. He said, What do you mean? You don't get it. He said, I don't know what there is to all this acceptance stuff. I've understood all of this pretty much my whole life. And it's really those of us who have our older in many respects and who have been, you know, on this hamster wheel and thinking everything that was going to keep going. I mean, it's those of us that really have to do the work to get to collapse acceptance. Many, many, many people all around the kind of the glove would say, Yeah, sweet. These are falling apart. Hello. There's no acceptance work to have to do. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I discovered in since what 2018 when my deep adaptation paper came out. The young people I talked with were far more able to integrate this as a possible reality. And therefore think through immediately what are they going to do with their life compared much more readily able to do that than than adults. Because adults have put so much invested psychologically as well as practically in that society as it has been. But yeah, that's interesting to hear that. All right. Let's let's number four presence focus on today with heightened awareness of being here now. Acceptance is the meditation being is more important than doing. And when I read that, I reminded me of my good friend Dave Hague in Cumbria. Me and my friends call him his holiness. Yeah, he says we're human beings, not human doings. Yes, absolutely. And when you understand the reality of our predicament, just being here now becomes so much more important.  And really trying to keep the noise out too. Like we're so focused on getting the news from all these other places and getting all these distractions. And we're missing what's going on, like just looking out the window and just sitting and being still. Yeah. So this spoke to me quite a lot because I realized when I was working. So my work in environmentalism since my first job at WWF in 1995, I was taking jobs where they were insecure, low paid. And I was working very hard. It was my life. And so I remember that this is a bit, when I looked at it, I think, oh, that's a bit horrid. But I remember if I saw someone begging on the street thinking, well, giving them money is not going to actually help change the homelessness problem. And I don't have much money. And I made these choices. But do you know what I mean? It was all me, me, me and my story of contributions to the world and what's going to fix things at scale. And so I just wasn't present to that person, a fellow human being in a difficult situation right there and then. And I look back at myself there and I think, that's a bit of a psychosis. And I think so there is.  So other people probably are in that same psychosis. So I'm so important. My work is so important. The world needs saving and I'm really struggling and therefore I'm a good person. It takes you away from just being in the moment with whatever's around you and whatever's happening and animals suffering or people suffering. And not realizing that you're suffering by that kind of disconnection and that rush. Yeah. And it leads into gratitude because even the simple act of like turning a faucet and having water come out can be magical.  And it's, I think it's only through really understanding the direness of our predicament that you can really get close to being present in ways that I never could before. Yeah. So that's interesting. I hadn't thought of that too. So yeah, I, when I was looking at my own life and the change. So I had attention to people begging and that gives them money now. And I saved stray cats. I found quite a few stray cats homes here in Bali and adopted one myself. For me, I see that all as a sort of a slowing down and being present towards happening around me. But, but yeah, you talked to, you, you connect that directly to gratitude. So there's a, yes. So I was describing perhaps a way of me being alienated with life because I was so bothered about all the problems. That's the huge massive intractable problems, terrible cliff edge we're hurtling towards. So that doesn't provide much space for gratitude. So this is number five of your list. Gratitude impossible to ignore all we've been given and taken. Make a list. Make the list. Hot showers, full grocery stores, internet trash pickup on demand, everything. And yeah, I'm grateful I was born when I was the idea that I had a childhood without the internet. And then the internet really came big in 1995. I was just, I was ending university and that's helped me discover the world, work from around the world. That to me feels like an incredible blessing. Despite it being used for unaccountable elite serving, manipulative, political manipulation, all the horrible things the internet's now doing, but still I'm grateful for it existing. And I'm grateful for all the modern conveniences. And I do feel like, yeah, I feel like, wow, isn't it amazing I have this. And there's this thank you and goodbye feeling as well. Goodbye, I don't know when it will be goodbye, but there is this sense of in Buddhist impermanence. So you can fully enjoy something, but notice that and aspire to not being attached to that experience or that convenience or that emotion associated with it. So yeah, your gratitude thing. I think I rewrote it though. Let's have a look because be thankful for positive aspects of modern societies that will now disappear as well as the natural world before it changed it. I was adding that bit about the natural world because when I live here in Indonesia, so once every six weeks, maybe I go down to the beach and go snorkeling and see the most incredible coral and tropical fish. And there used to be in me a real just pain knowing that this is going to, well, you can see some bleaching already, but knowing it's going to die like pretty much completely soon before 2030 probably because of the ocean temp. It just struck. Yeah. So yeah. Yeah, so now I wouldn't. Because now I also there's a there's a more of a thank you and goodbye. And it doesn't mean I turned my nose up for those people who are trying to restore coral reefs. I'm glad they're doing what they're doing. And I think it's also sad that it won't work. Coral reefs. Any any by the way anyone watching this anyone who looks at this coral reefs are the one thing that are on their way out, no matter what happens. Unfortunately, and it's a massive tragedy. Yeah, yeah. So I mean, and I do have you know, wildlife still among us on my list so I'm not it's not just gratitude. I mean, I'm mostly grateful every day for what is not human centered. We have 15 fruit trees here and we had a great year for growing food. And so I we have far too many apples and pears and figs and I've been enjoying every day picking up all the ones that drop on the ground and bringing them to a place where the deer know to come. And we have a lovely relationship. And I'm just every day I'm grateful for that little exchange that I get to have. It's a huge part of my day. And I know because I'm you know, I'm like, I don't know if next year I'll have apples. We didn't have any last year because the weather here. We had a late frost and lost all of our fruit. So I'm very present in that moment in that activity. And it's also a slowing down. It's a it's a it's a being a human being. I'm not so much just scurrying around all over the place frantically crazy. So your number six is calm grounding, not disrupted by catastrophic information. And people ask, can you believe it? Whatever that will be a slur or a sigh or extra bad. Can you believe this new science getting worse? And you you put yawn. Yes, I can. Oh, that reminded me when I launched the deep adaptation Facebook group in March 2019. One of the guidelines was don't post news items on the latest climate catastrophe or latest bad climate science. And some people thought why? And even my opponents use that. So I think it even maybe appeared in the New York Times. How as if we're somehow denying the reality. And actually, we wanted to create a space where we don't get distracted by doing scrolling because it has this emotion of.  And well, there's a lot of people screaming a lot of places where where the screaming is heard. We wanted to create a space of, yeah, we know that. And so now what? Yeah. Exactly.  And what we're not doing is having any conversations about radical responses. Yeah. Yeah. So turn off the news. You already know. Or if you hear it, then you then you just have to say, yeah, there's another hole in the hall of the Titanic. Yep. Got it. Yeah. The one thing where I haven't stopped doing scrolling and where I still scan, analyze, feel stressed about anxious is this whole area of how the authorities and also how the world's largest corporation are responding and will respond badly counter productively to societies as they become more disrupted. So I still fear the reactions of authorities a minute as well as corporates trying to be greedy and being disaster capitalist about this and also how people could be incredibly badly manipulated by corporate media, mass media and what politicians say. And so my book was partly motivated by that as, as you know, you've read it. So there's a whole chapter on resistance to these schemes and I agendas of elites as they panic as things break down around them and they try and maintain their control. So, um, so it's an interesting one. So I haven't, I haven't let that's a different kind of doing scrolling.  It's this, this paying attention to the political and cultural sphere. And because I still, I still have this idea where we can affect that a little bit. We can try and help less people become fascist. And it fits in with what you were saying about how can we collapse? Well, now I know I need to get to a point of not being so bothered by people reacting badly to evidence collapse, whether that's badly through denial, whether it's badly through believing in authoritarian agendas with techno fixes, or whether badly in whatever way. I still have some work to do in sort of having more equanimity about all of that side of society and collapse. Well, have you got equanimity on that? I feel like I do because I, you know, nobody gets to the end of their life the last day of their life and they think, gosh, I wish I'd worried more. That would have been a good use of my time. Right. And, and so because I already know like everything you just described, of course, all the elites, the power structures, they're going to keep tightening the news more and more and more as things become more and more desperate, of course, that's going to happen. And I expect it to happen. So I'm not surprised by it, but I also don't pay attention to it currently because it's not serving me in my now. It's not adding to my quality of life and my ability to show up and have, you know, good days and put goodness out there and the, you know, contributing member of my local community. And I feel like the work that I'm doing and trying to support collapse acceptance is a counterbalance in some way to all of that. And I also get comforted by the fact that none of those structures can survive if people can't eat and if people can't breathe the air. We all breathe the same air we all have to eat. They're all reliant on the internet function. To me, the internet is a canary in the coal mine. When the internet goes where everything's done because it runs everything. So in the short term, yeah, maybe things could get, you know, more sucky in that regard. But the only pathway I can see again is if more and more people accept the reality of our predicament and then are able to start seeing the benefits and making changes in their lives in positive ways. Yeah, and it's a good reminder that so many of these corporate responses and elite government responses and intergovernmental responses rely on communication systems which are fragile. They're so energy intensive. And yeah, so over time, those mechanisms of control will collapse. So this brings us onto number seven, community, localism, ability to affect those in close proximity, nearby land-based, push back on development projects, connect with neighbors. Clear from what you said so far, you're doing it. I guess it's clear from what I've said as well so far that I'm doing it, although I'm an outsider in this island. And so there's quite a long way for me to go, even basics of learning language. Well, so yeah, I'm wondering what you think about how this could be seen as delusional, almost like a localist form of hope. That non-local events and processes can override whatever you're doing there in Northern California. The government becomes interested in your apples or hundreds of thousands of people leaving the city become interested in your apples or some intense extreme of weather. Does localism, can localism and community focus be not only a good thing, but also a little bit of hope in that? Well, this is where I take my lessons from Ishmael the gorilla. And, you know, we're tribal, originally tribal people who were intensely local and we were connected to our land base. And that's how we survived for, you know, millions of years. And so if all we knew was what we can walk to, how different would our understanding of the world and our participation in it be right now? So I try to imagine life like that, knowing also what you say is that, you know, that isn't the reality. I mean, we are all connected globally. But again, my focus is right now like what can I do right now and what I've been working on since 2013 and the local water agency proposed a new dam on the river. That's a mile away from me. That would inundate everything right there. I've gotten in the way of that successfully for that for a long time. It's it's pretty much way, way, way, way, way on the back burner now. Whereas back then they would have told you it was a slam dunk done deal. And, you know, I participate in the wild community around me and support them. And, you know, whatever's going to come if it's the masses that come trying to flood up the hill and then, you know, run out of fuel trying to get here. And I'll get poison oak trying to go through the woods or, you know, I just I don't spend my time like thinking about it because I'll just do the next right thing that that is right in front of me. Just like I always have. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. And I think if we have strengthened community local communities that, you know, but up against each other all over the place, then that's a really good thing for collapsing well. Yeah, yeah. With my book, I, I suggested we can think about our localism as a coherent collective project, multi local. So it's part of reclaiming our power from these systems of imperial modernity, whether that's big government or big business. And so we it's not turning away from other people in other locations, but there's a shared philosophy here and and while the internet exists, we can exchange ideas about how to how to relocalize effectively. Yeah, I'm going to move to number eight now. Release good riddance to pressure and guilt. Don't have to fix it, solve it, fight it, save it, hooray. And I, let me just see, did I rewrite this with, I rewrote it. Yeah, I call it super hero. The story of needing to save everything before it's too late. Yeah. Same in a way then I guess I was just making it a bit more boring to fit with the style of my, my own writing in the book.  And getting to let go of that and all the pressure that comes with that. And then I'd even, you know, I've witnessed so much of that, like being pressure being put on the next generation's like, well, we fix it, but now it's up to you all to do it. We'll try to help you, but you guys, you know, are really, here you go, here's the big mess, figure it out. But I just, I can't stand that. I think it just, it's so abusive to the younger generation. So, so I'm, I'm someone who's been environmental activists since, in some ways, and since since I was 18. So I've, and I'm 15 now, and I've seen the various times in my life, adults say, always a new generation, they'll fix it. So does that story keeps me. Yeah, it's, it's just, it's just intergenerational hazing. And so, acceptance means you get to say, oh, gosh, okay, this is a predicament that we actually can't problem solve our way out of. Wow. What does that change in my reality of how I'm living every day? And it changes a lot. Yes. How do you respond though, when people say, and this could lead to some kind of selfish, I don't care about it anymore mentality. Because some people would say they wouldn't like, like, so you're telling the Extinction Rebellion or just off oral activists to, to stop being the hero. Yeah, I'm saying shift the energy and the focus into wise responses instead of bashing your head against something that's never going to work. I'm not saying stop. There's plenty of work to do to collapse well. But I'm saying shift the attention and when you get out of a problem solution mindset and into predicament response. It totally changes how you see things and what you see as possible and what you absolutely know just isn't. And, you know, the environmental movement has been focused on not how to protect this planet, but how to protect civilization, how to protect comfort and convenience. It's not about the planet. And, and that's a big bitter pill to swallow. And, you know, I'm so grateful to Jeff Gibbs and Planet of the Humans film and Bright Green Lies, the book and the film that just. Stirling work and took some heat from the establishment environmentalists. Yeah, I felt like the energy chapter of your book could have just been like, see Bright Green Lies. Because they just, you know. I might reference them somewhere. Oh, I'm sure you do too. I'm just saying it's like an incredibly comprehensive takedown of energy. If anybody is confused at all that trying to run global industrial civilization on anything but fossil fuels is 100% impossible. And, you know, that's, that's a huge gut check. Yeah, absolutely. I end that chapter saying I also hate this conclusion. You know, it's a lifelong environmentalist to realize, oh, that zero won't work. This can't be, this can't be done. And the process of trying to do it, we're going to trash even more pristine wilderness. Yeah.  So, you know, it's just. So your number nine is universalism, heightened connection to the oneness of everything. Tap into the collective coherence. Look a nonhuman in the eyes. Feel the force. So my question would be, why does this happen? Do you think for people who accept the collapse of modern societies as inevitable or already underway? Why does this heighten connection to one that's occur? As you start to feel so much solidarity with all the nonhumans on this planet that are suffering under the weight of all of this too. And then you start to see your participation in just this web of life as just one entity. And when you see these civilization structures for what they are and that they're collapsing, then you start to see the natural world just open up so much more. And you just can't help feel more deeply connected.  And it just, it takes you to this, you know, because you have to start thinking about your own death and what that means and spend some time in just this, this deeper grounded spiritual place. How ever you define spirituality, that's why I called it universalism because it's about, you know, your connection to the universe and you gave it a term that I also think is great. What is it? Yeah, transcendence because it's that, you know, we're essentially energy beings and we're connected to each other and through energy and and white and love and you just tap into that so much more. When you It is that sense of, of, of, of, like, in the form that we're in it now, like, there's the multi level of death. So there's this awareness of collapse brings awareness of our own death. We think of our loved ones, the death of anyone who will remember us, the death of our culture, the death of everything that we think we are therefore contributing to, like the death of an even an idea of legacy, the death of the Pomo sapiens. It was always going to happen at some point. We may have brought it forward clips by tens of thousands of years because of industrial civilization. I'm a, I'm a maybe on that one. I know other people have been that's inevitable this century. So I, but there's this mode, these, this multi level of death and dying and therefore in that context, the solace is to realize that everything around us was the potential of the universe and always will. And so all that we love is what was possible and will be possible forevermore. So in eternity, everything possible that existed once can exist again in some form. So there's this invitation isn't there to the, to the transcendent, the eternal in a way that, that can, can help with otherwise unbearable grief. You know, I'm grieve my cat's been missing nine days. And it was very much that my, my partner in writing my book.  And so even just that one creature, the amount of grief and we're facing this huge grief of death and dying of all life form unnecessarily. So yeah, that's the way to cope with that has always been, I think, people to tune into the transcendent nature of consciousness. So I think that that's, that's why a lot of people think this time is like a potentially the dark night of the collective human soul. Therefore it's a moment of, it's a spiritual invitation for those who are, who are ready for it. Yeah, can, can we take a break for one second? I know you're going to edit this, right? I wasn't going to edit it. I'll just press. Oh, okay. Let's see here we go. Pause. Just let's remember to restart the recording. So that also brings us on to empathy if it's, if it's hard for me. So number 10, you write empathy towards self and others. Give yourself extra grace, love, compassion. Help not squish that spider.  No worries, mate. I feel your collapse. So, um, all right, I got to be honest, I haven't fully experienced this due to my collapse awareness and acceptance. Um, I still argue with people, um, and I also argue with people who accept collapse but are interpreting what to do about it differently to me. I intellectually, I completely understand why people react with hostility and quite horrid towards me and write effectively, effectively lie about my work and my intentions. I understand it's just extremely tough topic. It's emotionally triggering and the more people around them talk as if collapse is real. The more it's destabilizing. So it's easier to be hostile and to shoot the messenger. Now I understand that intellectually, but I don't feel just purely magnanimous about it. Um, do you?  Like, why? What's the point? And that's not helping me again. This is my selfish part of all of this is it is literally about me staying grounded, me staying balanced, me, you know, enjoying my global hospice days as much as I can. And I'm selfish about that. I don't feel like I have that many left. I want them to be good days. And so, um, and I, so yeah, I truly have empathy for people who are struggling to get this because I know how hard that is.   I mean, it's really challenging stuff. And so, yeah, I do have a lot of empathy and to say nothing of the toxic trauma we're all dealing with. Don't even understand all the reasons why this, this civilization is toxic. And, and it's miserable for so many people. Um, and so, yeah, I, I have found that do I have it every every second of the day and every situation with every single person? No, do I get frustrated sometimes that, you know, the people with their head buried in the sand who could actually be doing things differently are refusing to pull their heads out? I mean, yeah, it's frustrating, but I also, you know, have empathy because we're all going down one way or the other. So if that's somebody's choice of how they want to go down, then yeah. Yeah. In my case, I was, I was particularly upset at how people were, were potentially being turned away from my collapse awareness or acceptance by the attacks on me and others who were known for sharing ideas and analysis on this. Um, because I felt that they were having reality stolen from them somehow like they, they, and they were being sort of guided into a techno fix ideology. Well, and, uh, yeah, more equanimity around that would have been, yeah, that's going to keep happening. Yeah. I mean, right.  And yeah, you're, you know, the, the highest nail is the easiest one to smack.  And so that's where, again, jam, getting your own oxygen mask on and, you know, being solid and grounded. And, um, that's critical because the other piece of this is that you're actually saving lives with this book. You're actually offering people freedom, people who are suffering and struggling under the weight of thinking they need to, they can problem solve their way out of this or suffering. And you're offering an amazing pathway for people. Thank you. Which is huge. Yeah. I used to think it was a bit of a sacrifice because it was, I became a recluse, but now I had a lot of cat time. Jesus. Yeah. Yeah.  Crazy enough with this really dire information, but that's the gift of these benefits. And so I'm so happy you included this chapter 12 in your book because I feel like, you know, it's like the heart space. Yeah, it's, it's exactly. It's like the whole book was fully, well, the whole book was leading up to chapters 12 and 13. Yeah. 13 being more about what would be good for us to resist because the bastards are going to make it a lot worse. They would have to, would need to be. So they're sorry, equanimity. Yes. Empathy. Yes. Good.  We're going to change our lives and exercise these benefits and we're going to work on how can we collapse? Well, instead, because, wow, wouldn't that be like an amazing way to go down if we're like these wise, you know, creatures? Wouldn't that be like best thing we could do? I would love to see so many more academics and so, so many more people who actually know CEOs and all these people who actually know because of course they know it's not hidden information. Of course they know they're just scared because their livelihoods and their reputations and their paychecks and their funding and everything is dependent on them not telling the truth. Yes. Yes. And that's torture. That's a torturous way to live. They live in cognitive dissonance that works because it's to feel meaningless. They feel like an artificial, like life is a performance and they feel they don't.  And I think it means, yeah, if you've still got the same economic outgoings, the same economic ambitions, then you can't even allow this truth to be real. Yeah, but if you could see the benefits of like, ooh, what could I do if I pulled all that money out of my retirement account that isn't going to be there? Well, then that brings us to your number 11, privileged perspective, the ability to view it and use it in a radical way. So cash out retirement accounts to set others free group art and afford more affordably. So, yeah, in my case, yeah, I'm spending my savings on a project which doesn't make much financial sense. Makes sense in so many other ways, makes sense in a, makes sense in a post collapse environment. You need to have a collapse ready file. But I haven't sold my house. So I'm still being a bit bilingual. Like I'm not putting absolutely everything I have into that. Do you think your privileged perspective's benefit requires a time horizon? Sure, anticipating complete mayhem before 2040. So you're asking me if I think... That to cash out your retirement accounts, to help yourself and others live more free in all the ways we've described so far, the first 10 minutes, please. Yeah. Oh, yeah, because... Yeah, well, I mean, I cashed mine out in 2012. So, I mean, yeah, it gets back to number two, urgency. Yeah, I don't think any... Yeah, I don't think there's any reason to wait. You know, I... We don't... We just don't know what... You know, everybody's playing with the crystal ball of uncertainty, right? But I mean, if you could make a difference today and improving the quality of your life today and the quality of life of those around you. Like I know some gals in my group who have taken some money out of savings and accounts and things and have given it to their children and grandchildren. So mom doesn't have to work that full-time job all the time and can spend more time, quality time with her children.     Absolutely. I mean, when you really think about it, such savings and sitting on assets, it involves a desire for power because of a fear of scarcity, a fear of the future, a fear of others, and not trusting in the universe and each other. And of course, an awareness of collapse, acceptance of collapse could lead to people reacting, you know, in a more of a defensive, prepper mindset. And that's the big issue, isn't it? How we can help people help each other explore this outlook, this reality. Yeah. So they don't just go into the where's my bunker, where's my gun, where's my tin food, all that stuff. Right. Because you're inviting people with a privileged perspective. I wrote it into solidarity because privilege is relative. Well, I wanted one word for each of these. But solidarity, the idea of, yeah, it's not charity. It's actually, and each and every one of us has slightly different moral less than others in terms of economic capability. So it's this spirit of, okay, I am with others. I am with them. I want to live in solidarity and use whatever resources I have to re-prioritize. But today, to live in solidarity. Right. Yeah.     That are just putting more and more pressure on the wild world and just sucking more and more resources. Just so people can have one, two, and three jobs to pay to serve them. Money's not real. And, you know, it's, it's, it's just, They have like chapters on that. I have two chapters on money, right? Right. Yeah. You know. To me, that's just an obvious way that we could lessen the suffering on the way down for everybody. Number 12, make amends or amends. Having bags packed and ready to go right wrongs with whoever. Beat birds, give back to community, community of life. How has this been for you? Could you give us an example? And I'll make, and the other thought I had was I'm making amends. Is the process of making amends ever complete? I guess it's not. So I guess it's, it's a new way of being to think, how do I make amends today? Right. Right.  I can't not. And so, can I truly make amends for that every day? I don't know. I try, you know, I've tried to lessen my impact. I try to care about the, you know, have adopted this land base around me and try to care for it. I'm doing what I can, you know. I, like I said, I protected this river and I feel really, really good about that. And I will continue to protect that river.  We'd be trying to clean up the mess way more than we are. Instead, we're just trying to make more of a mess instead of cleaning up the mess. But personally, you know, I'm just trying to make sure that all my relationships that I'm clear, you know. I have one sister who I wish I was closer with and I've done what I feel like I can do to have made that relationship okay, you know, just to the best of my ability and I think making amends with yourself is really important because we carry so much guilt and feeling like we've, you know, been part of all this destruction and this terrible way of being. And so you have to really forgive yourself. So your number 13 is death, comfort, collapse, acceptance, forces the conversation and preparation for dying. Work on an exit strategy plan and abound spirituality for what comes next. So this can become quite awkward to talk about. Would you be like, what is your exit fantasy? Well, I mean, I'm, I won't go into the specifics, but I will say that, you know, I've thought about it. You know, if, if, if the suffering gets to the point where what's the point in being here anymore?  It's comforting to feel like I have that card in my back pocket if I need to play it as a way of dealing with collapse acceptance.  You know, we did an interesting exercise and recently in one of the collapse calls where we, we wrote our own obituaries. And that was really, that was really good to like check in with like yourself and your life and what would you want to say. And it's, it's part of that, you know, making amends. But yeah, we have to, as a society, we have to do a much better job of giving people exit strategies if they want them. We're all good about cesareans. We're fine with assisted birth. And we're okay in some places with assisted death if you meet specific parameters and requirements. But we just need to get a lot more comfortable in being able to say, hey, if somebody's ready to check out, let them. We've made it this huge taboo. And that's causing suffering for people. And I'm not suggesting to anybody that this is a, you know, a path you need to take or whatever. But at some point with collapse, we're all getting off this rock somehow. You're right. So there are a few countries now in Europe where assisted dying in is, is, is legal. And there are various different, obviously, rules and regulations around in terms of the health of the person, maybe a terminal diagnosis and medical professional signing off on things, cooling off periods. But I'm in Britain. That's, that's doesn't exist. And it's not even had as a conversation. And my experience of the medical system is there's an ideology that it's the right thing to do to fight. To live as long as possible. Even if that therefore means ruining your quality of life in your final year or two. So my dad has had a terminal diagnosis for 18 months now. And he's in a situation now that he said he never wanted to be in after witnessing his parents be in this situation. And we, we don't, we have pathologized demonized the idea of choosing to go. And it's a weird one because I do know some people who were soon as they get a terminal diagnosis, if they're in a country where you can go, they've organized it and gone quite quickly, even when they had a very decent quality of life. And I was a bit shocked. We need to, we need to have a far healthier conversation about this and change laws. And I'm wondering if actually campaigning for legal change and the change of attitudes on these things is, is actually quite an obvious policy item for the collapse, except us. But I haven't given it so I have, I've made no preparations for how I would take my own life. Or advise other people, haven't, haven't thought about it at all. And I wouldn't even, I suppose I should start to have conversation. But I guess I've got in my sense, I've got this feeling like this is many years away, which so it's an interesting conversation because it helps you think, well, yeah, what is your implicit, what's the implicit assumed time? So your number two is urgency in this list. And everyone says, I'm certainly not living as if I will be faced with suffering leading to death for many years. And that might be completely wrong. I would say, have you read this book called Breaking Together by Jim Bandel? It was interesting. I still, pretty clearly. There's still a sense, I still have a sense of years, right? The other only, and maybe that's my own emotional, emotional psychological defense is to have intense of years. I know it's, it's been a source of suffering for the people I've been in discussion groups with to, to not have to have that dangling out there and not have a plan. Yeah. That, that, and it's, it's been so much more comforting for people to just feel like, okay, I have my, you know, plan. I don't have to think about it currently anymore. I can just set that aside.  I think everybody wants to feel that they have some sense of control. Yeah. Because there's two very different issues. The one is the fear of non-existence and which some people overcome that fear or never really quite had that fear. And then the other is the process of dying itself. Okay. Number 14. I think we'll come back to, to, I'll come back to you on this pilot. Letting go. Number 14. By the way, if you're watching this still on YouTube when this comes out, well done. Thank you. We originally planned this as an hour, didn't we Karen? Here we are. Still going. Thank you as well for delaying your plans for dinner and everything. It's all good. I'm really enjoying this time with you. So, and yes, if anybody's hanging in there with us, thank you too. Because I think this actually is as, as important as everything in your book is. I think this part is actually really critical because I, I, people get stuck in awareness because they're, they don't know that there's something else beyond it. And I'm, I'm just so happy to have the opportunity to say absolutely 100%. There is something beyond collapse awareness that's out there waiting patiently for more people to join. So letting go, number 14, letting go of control, worry, fear, guilt, blame, shame. There's no need to sweat the small stuff, no purity test to parts. So when I read this, I, I thought, oh, I wonder how this is different from number eight, the release, the releasing. You said that superhero release. Releasing of the stories of needing to, to checks things, checks everything quickly. And there was also some mention of blame, shame, guilt and so on in, in number eight. So how's this letting go different from that release? I think the worry is a big part of it.  So there's a lot of attachment work to come to terms with there that that's different from the superhero release of, you know, fighting and solving and fixing. Yeah. And the, and the fear letting go of the fear that comes up a lot. And there's, there's, there's a ton of fear, you know, of what this collapsing world is going to continue to present us with, which is fair. I mean, it is scary and terrifying, but also when you just accept, okay, again, coming back to the Titanic analogy. But I mean, at some point you're like, well, this is, this is what I'm doing. So I'm just going to do it. And, you know, and again, it comes back to that quality of life, having good days as best as you can. And, and it's also this purity test, what I call the purity test, because, you know, as an environmental activist, I was really like focused in on, you know, how I shop and what I eat and how I consume and, you know, whether or not I choose to fly on airplanes and all of these types of things, holding myself to some sort of standard and then also holding others to this same type of standard. And you just realize that it doesn't matter any milk or in collapse acceptance beyond what I just, you know, feels good to me to do, but I'm not doing it because I think I'm saving the planet or, you know, making some huge difference. And, you know, and if I use a disposable whatever and I throw it away, I'm, you know, I'm not like wrapped with guilt that that type of thing. Yeah, I mean, some people, I mean, I guess anyone looking at your life in comparison to other people living in North America would say it's extremely environmentally conscious and low footprint. So, and also, some people may choose to respond to their collapse acceptance and then letting go in a way that still involves choices not to fly, choices to encourage people to think twice about flying choices to support groups that campaign that's an airline and fuel to be taxed. I mean, it doesn't mean entirely dropping the an environmental policy agenda, but there's a different way of relating to it is that it's a, as you say, there isn't all this anger, worry, fear, guilt, blame. It's, there's others on it. Well, I used to work gentleness around it all, but there's a gentle way of being to self and others around all these topics. Yeah. And there is, you can't, it doesn't matter. We're all guilty every day of participating in making things worse. Doesn't matter. We all are. There's too many of us on this planet for that to be otherwise. Um, so you can't escape that.  Um, so I still don't know why I was kicked off Ritter. But the, it came, I was banned from Twitter very soon after I published a blog related to my chapter three on energy and I released this light. I've created and using artificial intelligence and post generation photo manipulations and stuff with my colleague, Dorinka. So we created a Tesla in a Kintsugi manner. So Kintsugi, you know, where you know that this, it's like the Japanese way of sticking things back together after they were open. So we did a Kintsugi Tesla and released the image. Anyway, then I got banned from Twitter X. I have no idea why. But maybe hacking the Tesla image and saying, no, this doesn't save the world. Sorry, guys. Maybe that was it. I have no idea. Yeah. I would probably take it as a compliment. Yeah. Well, I issued a, I clicked and say, appeal the decision and I never got any response and I appealed it again and never got any response. Two months, they don't have no idea. Well, admittance here. You've been noticed and that's a good thing. Yeah. So we've reached the final benefit, final benefit for now. Who knows, you might add one one day, but they seem quite comprehensive. Number 15, enjoyment of global hospice time.  Honour all, but has been sacrificed for and taken by you. And do this by enjoying and loving life as much as possible. So my question for you on this, Karen, is have you found that full collapse, except in is drawing people to wards their own bucket list of of designers of things to do or experiences to have. And I ask you that because my experience in myself and of other people is that collapse exceptions kind of creates a different way of feeling and being in the world. Whereby there isn't a desire for cramming in lots of new or different experiences and certainly not those that have been almost like prescribed promoted advertised to us throughout our lives. For me, it's it's much more just about connection with self other nature experiences of love and beauty and nature. So yeah, what have you found in the people? Yes. For example, is it the bucket list? Like, okay, I want to go to Disneyland. Okay, I want to get whatever. Yes. I mean, I have everything with the benefits of this probably that term bucket list has probably, you know, been pushed back on me a little bit more than anything else. But I use that purposefully because I wanted to make clear that it's anything you feel like you really want to do that's left in your life to feel like you've had a full and complete life if there's anything left in that bucket.  But I think, you know, I think for most it's what I'm seeing is, you know, I've always wanted to paint. So I'm going to take up learning how to paint, or I'm realizing I'm not seeing my grandchildren enough. And I'm going to work.  And so it's, it's changing lives to recognize because the other piece of it is that the acceptance offers the awareness is where all the grief is taking place. Where the sadness, the depression, the anger, the, you know, and moving through that and into accepting of this predicament. Then you can say, okay, I get it, and I'm going to have some fun still, because I'm here, I have this life, I have this time, and I want to enjoy it. And I, and it's really important, but positive energy and good vibes out there that I think make a difference for others. Yeah, thank you for explaining it. And I totally resonate. This is when I rewrote to short and make it a bit more boring in my language, but also, yeah, just to emphasize that it wouldn't necessarily be your typical consumer kind of like this. So just have fun and time with them. Have fun with the time you have left as a way of honoring being alive at this time. What a remarkable time to be alive. Exactly. Yeah. It's, it's shocking. And I honestly don't think you can do that fully if you're stuck in Collapse Awareness. Yeah, so hopefully this video will bring attention to this part of my book and your work. And well, at least within the kind of people that follow my work. Yeah, the one in the maybe the Collapse Awareness stage and maybe this will invite them into Collapse. Acceptance certainly for me, I, for a few years, I was a little bit apologetic about my view of the world. I, yeah, and I was worried about how it had gone viral and that people weren't supported in how they would feel into this and think what to do. So I was quite cautious and I, and there was a lot of sense of caretaking. And that was imbued the deep adaptation forum to begin with. So we just focused on people who already get it and who are maybe emotionally a little bit struggling with this. So there wasn't, there wasn't a boldness. There wasn't a, wow, this is it. And this is the amazing things that people are doing as a result. And so, yeah, I've, I've switched. There's a, there's a, there's a much more of an outward energy of this is happening. And this is how people are responding. And isn't this great how people are responding. But so, I think it's an exciting time to be alive. And we have a huge challenge before us of how can we collapse well. And to me, that's exciting. And to be able to support other people in being able to get more comfortable with this is, is critical. And so, I think this chapter of your book is hopefully going to give people courage to take that step and say, giving in is not giving up. That's critical. Yeah. Yeah, I'm going to release the audio or chat 12 freedom to collapse and grow the doomsday way. I'm going to release it in a blog as I release this video, my first DA conversation. So I've discovered, as long as whoever I host in conversation is up for it, these conversations will get potentially go a lot longer than the one or DA Q&As I used to do with a live audience where people would ask questions. So, so I get more out of this. I get to explore what I need to explore in my own life and I need you to explore this. I'm very pleased that you make the time for me. Yeah. Thank you so much. And I will just close with, in your book, you called these benefits of collapse except in doomsday characteristics and Correctly. I agree. Okay. That's fair. The benefits of collapse acceptance and I will change that in whenever I get to do a second edition. Yeah. Yeah. Because Can you tell me about what are the characteristics of people? Yes, I would love that because I think there are doomsday characteristics and you mentioned some in the book, but I think there are a lot that exists down there. Dot, dot, dot. Dot, dot, dot. You, yeah, if you're watching this on my YouTube channel, then check out Karen's website because she might be writing about doomsday characteristics after this. Yeah. I have a sub stack. That's the closest thing I have to a website. Kind of, that's my feral wild and free way. Put a link to it in the notes. I've also put in a link to the Ishmael free audio book. Right on. That's great. And people are welcome to email me too. I'm fine with that. So Karen, send me an email with whatever you want to put in those video notes. All right. Thank you. Thanks a bunch. Bye-bye. Bye.