Oh, no, I don't mind if you take pictures. OK, so my name is Ken Caruso. I'm co-founder of the Seattle Wireless Project and free networks.org, and I'm going to do a talk about community wireless networks. And basically, I just want to talk a lot about the political, social implications, how the telephone companies feel about it, and that type of stuff. I'm going to use the term free networks. It's kind of the same thing as a community wireless network. It's a term that we call in basically to represent the philosophical ideas and not be tied to any one particular technology, because the things that we really feel in this movement are not specific to wireless. So if we're able to do this with other types of technology, if we're able to lay fiber throughout our cities on our own, we do the same thing that we're doing with wireless. But basically, right now, what a free network is, there's a couple of different types of free networks. But for the most part, it's a scenario where anyone can join the network. Anyone can put up a note on the network. There's no barrier to entry. All that's required is that you provide the gear and to know how to run your devices. And the free is kind of confusing. Some people think that it's free internet, and it's actually not. We're not necessarily focused on free internet. It's mostly free as in freedom. And as far as the people involved in the project, it's anything but free, because we spend a lot of time, a lot of money trying to figure out how to make this stuff work. So I kind of briefly talked about the different approaches. For a couple of the community wireless groups, their mission is free internet access. And as Adam had mentioned earlier, it's kind of like the philanthropy aspect of it. And then there's what people consider the isolationist, which is kind of what Seattle Wireless falls into. What we don't even really care about the internet, we want to build a metropolitan area network that's self-sufficient that doesn't rely on telecom infrastructure at all. So that means that we're like providing our own core services, DNS, and all that stuff. And we basically want to be able to exist without the internet. We don't have a problem with the internet, and we don't want the internet to go away. But we want to have a network that's sustainable, and that doesn't have to go over telephone company lines. Basically, a lot of people want to know kind of why this is happening, and what are the reasons why this is starting to crop up in the past two years. And there's a couple of things that I've identified. One of them is that standards-based technology. One of them is that standards-based technology is available. If you wanted to build a community wireless network, say, three years ago, you'd have to choose from a technology that would lock you into one vendor. There were really no established standards. And so you'd have to go to one company, buy all the gear from them. And it was really expensive. Now cards are really cheap. You can buy a wireless network card. You're selling them in the vendor area for about $50. And there's a growing desire for connectivity everywhere. Everyone wants to be online all the time. And the hacker community and the techies that are involved in this kind of field is screwed over by ISPs. When I first got my first home high bandwidth connection, I was really excited. And then I found out, well, I can't run any servers or they're going to filter certain ports, and there's a lot of things I can't do. So I think a lot of people are kind of feeling screwed over by that, and so they kind of want some sort of relief from that technical oppression if you want. By building self-sufficient networks where the community is in control, you can do all that stuff. And actually, it's just existed for a long time. The BDS community fighter net are all good examples of a very, very similar movement, very similar motivations. So basically, there are a lot of people that are not really very fond of a free networking movement. The ISPs in general, like big ISPs like AT&T and those guys, they don't like us or they claim they don't like us because they think that we're a threat to their business model and that we're going to give away their bandwidth, which is actually not entirely the case. We understand that bandwidth costs money, and what we do in a lot of cases, and what they're actually doing in Portland, Oregon, is they're working with local ISPs, mom and pop ISPs that are willing to give them connections where they can share internet bandwidth. And in turn, they actually get some useful information out of that because now these ISPs can look at community wireless nodes and they can see how much traffic is going through their nodes and it gives them data and they know whether or not this is actually a threat to their business model, whereas companies like AT&T, they don't even want that data, which is kind of a shame because I think if they actually saw the data and what was going on, they might actually change how they feel about it. Another reason why the telcos I think are kind of upset is because 3G has not taken off. All the people in this room probably understand the difference between the 3G network, 802.11B network, completely different things, but to the corporate user or to typical end users, they don't know the difference. All they know is that now they can walk around their laptop, they can go to the airport, they can go wherever they want and they can get on a network. Wireless ISPs are kind of concerned about it because this is a public band. The current technology that we're using operates in 2.4 gigahertz, which is completely unlicensed, which means that anyone can use it. We're in the same band as 2.4 gigahertz cordless phones, the X10 video cameras, and so risks are really concerned because their business model relies on this unlicensed band, which I don't know if you ask me, that's kind of a risky business model to have, but it's something that has to be considered and they have no more right to the band than we do. And also the FCC, this is kind of an interesting thing because like previous can antennas are really popular, all these parabolic dishes are really popular, but when it comes down to it, there's a lot of regulations about using antennas with 802-11B cards and it is technically against FCC regulations to use a previous can antenna because the antennas do have to be certified in a specific card that you're using. So who likes this? Well, actually this is kind of on the other side of it, I think a lot of the bigger ISPs that have been offering all you can get into access for a long time, for the past couple of years, actually do kind of like the fact that this movement is coming about because it gives a little bit, it takes away a little bit of the barn because they've been doing this all you can get into access, they're starting to find out that they're not making money on it and now this is kind of something that they can focus not necessarily their attention to but they can say, look, you know, there are these people doing this, this is the reason why we're not making money and it's kind of another excuse for them to go from this all you can get into an access model to value added services where you have to pay if you want to use a VPN or you have to pay extra for all these additional things and the media, of course, loves this because of the controversy, every single media person that I talk to, they want to know, you know, does AT&T hate you? Do you guys get into fights on the phone? All this crazy stuff. And there's a lot of confusion too. One of the most common questions that people want to ask is, why would you do this for free? Why in the world would you want to do something like that? Venture capitalists, you know, I get calls from VCs probably about once a month wanting to know what my secret plan is to make money.  And they want to know who pays for it. They don't understand that, you know, people would do stuff on a volunteer basis. I mean, with Seattle Waterless, all of our notes are owned by individual people.  There's no real, like, centralized, you know, repository for funds or anything like that. So they don't understand why someone would go out and buy equipment, spend time to set up equipment when they don't have any, you know, perceived retribution. And it's also kind of confusing too because I don't think that the ISPs in telephone companies aren't really sure. They, you know, they're like, well, you know, people are reaching bandwidth and weren't potentially losing money, but at the same time, they're kind of confused. They don't know. This could potentially be a good thing for them. I mean, if we were to set up agreements with Internet Service Providers and telephone companies, it could be a benefit to them, but there's really no clear understanding of what's going to happen. And privacy too. I think that one of the big things about community wireless networks, especially with the model that we're using with Seattle Wireless is that it can promote privacy with our localized communications. If I'm communicating with my neighbors or people down the street from me and they're going over three wireless hops, well, I'm not going, you know, I'm not going. My packets aren't going to California and they're coming back into Seattle because me and my friend are on two different ISPs. So if someone wants to, you know, inspect that traffic or sniff that traffic, they have to come. They have to be in that visible area, and it's not as easily to do remotely. And because it's decentralized, because each person owns their individual node, they can't go to an ISP and they can't say, look, you know, we want to put a tap on all the traffic coming from this person. There's no core aggregation points for them to come in and inspect traffic. And also, you know, to get involved with this, you don't have to give us any private information. You don't have to worry about us selling, you know, your surfing habits and that type of stuff because it can be fairly anonymous. And so the community and independently on infrastructure, it's a different way of thinking and it's really confusing for a lot of people. They just don't understand. I mean, one of the things that I really like about it is that, you know, when you look at right now the local loop infrastructure, you're basically paying, you know, we're not renting phones anymore from the telephone companies, but it's still pretty close.  Now you can make a voiceover IP phone call to your neighbor or someone across town and you're not paying $30 a month for the telephone company. So, and that's actually the thing that's interesting. I think about the local loop monopoly is that the internet service providers don't realize us sharing bandwidth or giving away bandwidth is not really a big threat to them. What's a big threat to them is the local loop monopoly because that's something that, you know, once that happens, then they're going to lose a ton of money. And so faster deployment of new technology basically in an environment like this, in a kind of organic ad hoc environment, it's a lot easier for us to deploy new technology stuff like IPv6. You know, we can do a lot of research and development work and we can move a lot faster and be more flexible than a lot of major providers. And then, let's see. What do we got next here? Peer-to-peer. Okay, so this is another big thing too. And this goes back to the whole exchanging data with people in the local area. Right now, peer-to-peer, you know, like file sharing, peer-to-peer communications, it's kind of a weird model because you have no idea what a person is. You have no idea how close they are to you. In a situation like this where you have you could have location-based apps because you know the location of all the physical devices and a peer-to-peer file sharing application or any sort of peer-to-peer app could go out and you could find the most efficient route to your node. And you know, in fact, why would you want to go get, you know, something from the internet when you can go get it from your next door neighbor at 11 megabits? Let's see. And so, more on the peer-to-peer thing, I guess, the thing that I think is kind of interesting about this, not even from the wireless perspective, but I think that if the telephone companies would kind of look at the way they're structuring their business right now with a lot of this stuff, like file sharing and whatnot, if they would offer higher transit to all their customers, so say for instance, me and my neighbor are both a customer of a particular ISP, you know, I'm rate-limited as soon as I leave the door. I'm not, you know, I don't get faster transit to my next door neighbors. And so, something like a community wireless network promotes that, and I think it's sending a message to the internet service providers, because if they were to provide, you know, faster access to people in the same areas, you not only would it be better for the people that want to exchange data, because they'd be getting faster rates, but they'd also be saving them money because now instead of downloading, you know, your MP3s from someone across the country, you're getting it from someone that's on their local network, it's not going out, it's not going out, they're upstream connection. So basically the survival, what is it going to take for the wireless community, the free network movement to survive? Obviously strong local community relationships, that's really the Seattle Wireless, that's one of the core things, our monthly meetings, our mailing lists, we have strong communication between everyone involved in the project, that's definitely really important to promote our survival. Pressure on vendors to release drivers and information for open source OSs, as this network, as the wireless networking technology is progressing, it's kind of funny because now the cards are getting dumber and dumber and they're going to put more and more of the stuff that's on these cards and the software drivers, which means that the FCC is going to, your radio is going to be more software than anything, which means that the FCC is going to have to get involved with software, hardware drivers and stuff and they're probably not going to want to release a lot of that information because then if they have all the hooks into this card, then you can pretty much do whatever you want if you know how to operate the card, so I think there's going to be, we've already seen it with 802.11a, we're currently the 802.11a chip set that's been shipping, I don't know how long it's been, but it's probably been at least six months. There are no open source drivers for it, there's supposedly binary drivers that a theorist or vendor has been giving to customers, but there's no open source drivers and that's because they have so much of the information in the driver that they're afraid of giving away trade secrets. So they need to understand that this, we need to put a lot of pressure on these guys to give us the information that we need.  I mean this is a public ban, we're sharing it with everybody. So you want to work with your local wireless internet service providers, you want to make sure that you're not starting any wars with them and doing anything like that. You want to be good citizens, you want to make sure that you're not hooking up a one-lot amp to an omnidirectional antenna. You want to try and use point-to-point links wherever possible so that you're not increasing the amount of noise that's in your area. FCC compliance is a big one. This is what I was talking about earlier, with Pringles can antennas, with high-gain antennas, basically if this stuff ever takes off and if we ever really progress, the first thing that they're going to do is they're going to crack down on wireless stations and whether or not they're compliant with FCC regulations. Currently, wireless ISP is not necessarily hotspot providers like the guys in Starbucks, but out in the Midwest in a lot of areas, they're wireless internet service providers that are doing fixed-point wireless. They're already starting to get inspected by the FCC. The FCC shows up at their door and they want to know, they want to see all the receipts for all the gear, they want to see all your serial numbers, they want to make sure that all the gear is certified and born together. If I go and I buy a wireless card like this and then I go to another vendor and say, this is an ASSISCO card and I go to Looseng and I buy a Looseng antenna and plug it into this car, I just violated FCC regulations because it's not certified. The antenna that I'm using is not certified with this device. So if we want this stuff to actually survive and continue to progress, we have to be completely vigilant about making sure that all our nodes and all of our stations are compliant with the FCC regulations. Spreading the gospel, obviously I guess coming to conferences, evangelizing a lot of these networks, explaining to people why localized communications are better. When I go and talk about this stuff to people that aren't very technical, they have a hard time understanding the concept of not worrying about internet access. These people don't even know. They're a company that they don't know that there's an intranet and an intranet. They think that everything goes to the internet. So people really need to understand the value of a local high-speed network and a global collaboration is a big one. There's currently 182 wireless community groups that I know are ranging from China to North America, Europe, South America and we need to all work together and we need to communicate. We try to do that right now with the freenetworks.org. It's kind of like an aggregation point for all the wireless communities. That's really important because we all face a lot of the same technical problems. We all face a lot of the same political problems. Actually in some cases we face different political problems. Currently in France, if you wanted to build a community wireless network, you'd be breaking the law because you're not allowed to use stuff like 802.11b outside of your house against the law. In England, up until about a couple of months ago, it was illegal for any two entities like say I owned a business and you owned a business and you wanted to set up a wireless link to each other. That wasn't allowed. All that stuff is really important that we all kind of get on the same page and share information with each other. Finally, how would someone start a community wireless group? I've talked to a lot of people here at DEFCON and a lot of people are really frustrated because they live in areas where technology isn't very prominent and they want to do the same thing. They want to start building wireless networks and obviously this is for you, this is a no brainer. You've got to check to see if the group exists in your area. Go out and start a mailing list, start a webpage. I think one of the things that's helped the Seattle Wireless Project a lot and also the personal telco project in Portland is that our webpage is Wiki which basically Wiki is a website where anybody can edit any page and so anyone can go to the site, anyone can add information, anyone can update information, anyone can remove information and it does this and it keeps back up so if someone does go and vandalize the site, you can go back and you can restore it but that has been really key in our success. The amount of information that is on the Seattle Wireless and the personal telco sites is incredible and if we had to have a team of webmasters or somebody maintaining all this information, it would never happen. So collaborative technologies like that are really important and here's a bunch of links freenetworks.org, Seattle Wireless, all that stuff.  So this was actually one of the first Seattle Wireless notes to go up. It's an omnidirectional antenna that's on this wooden mast. It was fastened to the house with speaker wire and so it's obviously not up anymore so mental note speaker wire doesn't hold the antennas up. This is a guy, one of the Seattle Wireless means this is actually a note he built that runs BOS. I think it was just DOS 6.2 with some user land program that does IP routing so it's actually technically remotely unruly because you can't actually interact and log into the box but then again you can't do any remote administration on it either and this is actually, this is the reason that I use BSD. This is actually, this is from a digital divide conference that was put on by Microsoft in Seattle and a bunch of guys from Seattle Wireless went down there because the local Linux users group was kind of demonstrating because it was one of these things where Microsoft was trying to help out third world countries with expensive software licenses and so they went to demonstrate and give other free CDs and so we went down there to kind of try and wrap up some Linux guys to come and check out the Seattle Wireless project and I just thought this was a funny picture. These are the enemy they're Pringles cans and we had a big meeting where we were showing everyone how to make Pringles cans just to try to get them involved with the project and like I said we don't condone using them it's a bad idea, they're not bad, they're bad antennas and they're illegal so don't use them and I always think whenever I see this picture I always think if you ever have seen the movie with Steve Martin the jerk where he's getting shot at and he like turns around and looks at the oil cans and he's like he hates these cans that's what I think of it. This is one of the core routers the Seattle Wireless project belongs to Eric who's around here somewhere I don't know if he's here, but it's basically 3RG 1000 boards that were ripped out and put in a water proof case and they all met bootlinux and they just we currently use static rats so nothing fancy going on in there the boards are like the 486 but we've got an NFS and a TFTP server in the house and then it runs power over each other up to the roof and boots Linux on these things and antennas up on the roof and this is a funny picture this is me and my friend Matt we're talking to these two guys from NTT which is a big telephone company over in Asia and the funny thing about this story is that the telephone companies and big ISPs in the United States they don't really like us and they don't really have good things to say about us but the telephone company in Japan calls us up and he invites us out to launch brings Vizio diagrams 300 node hotspot network that they're rolling down in Japan and basically asks us questions for an hour about what we think of their network structure of their business model, all this stuff so I mean it's just kind of an interesting contrast because they love this but this is my friend Casey standing next to an omnidirectional antenna hooked up to a 1 watt amp I don't condone that either but he's an amateur radio operator so he can do stuff like that and we think that's kind of the cause of his acne problem we don't really know why I think it's a 1 watt at 2.4 this is Ben one of our guys at the Seattle Wireless Meeting brandishing his antenna and that's no, it's not meant to have any sexual innuendos there this is a Yagi antenna that he was designing and this is from the last wireless summit every year we have a wireless summit by community networking from all over the country in one location and we basically try and hash out all the problems we have this last one we had in Seattle about 200 people showed up and it was a good time and that's about it, I don't know if you guys have any questions I could probably answer a couple of questions here but we're running kind of behind schedule so what I'd like to do is probably take that couple of questions as I okay and then if you guys want to talk to me some more I'll head out to the bar I'm sorry there's no such thing as a one watt antenna there's what? there's a one watt amplifier is what we're using to be honest with you I don't know a lot about amplifiers I believe we're using a teleronics amplifier it's like 200 bucks or something like that but yeah don't use amplifiers they're not good I'm sorry we use a variety of APs we don't have a standard on any one particular vendor we use a lot of loose in APs just because we got into a scenario where we actually did a grid purchase and we got a bunch of them for $60 a piece but we're not really vendor specific how do you handle the quality of service? we don't we don't that's a good question well currently it's one of those things I think until we actually have people on the network using the network consistently right now we've got 30 nodes somewhere between around 30 nodes with 7 point to point lengths and there's activity on the network but there's not really enough to get stuff like that going but I mean currently we have a bunch of people doing QoS the question is do we have any form of policy about bandwidth heavy applications and no currently we don't the way we kind of figured that this would end up working out is that if you've got a bunch of people that want to use high bandwidth applications it's in their best interest to get with the people the nodes that they're connecting to and maybe put up additional links so that they can get more bandwidth between them we currently have no form of organization whatsoever it's just at such an infant stage that it's just not there and yet at some point in time if it does really take off it's going to be like the internet you're going to have organizations that do stuff like Aaron takes care of IP addresses and this group does that that stuff will probably be required if it gets that big to be honest we need to be brand-wise or vendor-wise the question is what equipment do most clients use to get on the network well currently the structure the structure of the network is that outside of the point-to-point links there are access points that people get onto so for the most part they're just using normal wireless cards in our actual our core network routers we use agi antennas parabolic antennas but as far as like end-users I mean they generally unless they have a little mini extender antenna or something like that, it's just usually a card the question is how do we deal with IP addresses and that's a good one because we actually use non-lattable address space specifically because of the organic growth of the network and also for other reasons with IPv4 address space it's better for it allows us to move at our own pace it allows us to manage our own address space we're actually setting up a white database to manage the IP space for us when we start to do more stuff with IPv6 we're going to try and start using reliable addresses but right now it's not a big deal because we're not really concerned about internet connectivity I mean if people want to get on the internet then you either have to be netted or go through a proxy server or something like that the question is what do we do about liability and that's a good question too in the sense that we're not really focused on providing internet access we're not really the only liability is with the network so if you have a 30 node network then the liability is with the most 30 nodes I mean I'm not, I guess right now the way it would work is that probably someone that I know will call me up and say yes and do his poor skin in your minds so there currently is really no there currently isn't any liability issues and obviously if someone wants to provide internet access on one of their nodes we suggest that they run a portal of some sort like a catcher release where you know when you get on the node it gives you a splash page with an acceptable use policy and you know do your basic stuff to you know whatever filter point 25 I mean I know this, it's kind of funny because there's like you know you can do all this stuff you know you can block all these ports and as long as there's connectivity going out to the internet someone can always launch an attack from there but yeah basically forcing people getting on the network to see some sort of acceptable use policy and acknowledge it before they continue on where do I see myself in two years well I don't really want to see myself in two years and that's a good question I think in two years I think one of the things that is really going to help our project take off is we've been talking to the city of Seattle about helping with emergency communications and I think that's going to help us a lot emergency communications is interesting because a lot of the emergency communications that they use right now for doing data transmissions is really low bandwidth I mean such low bandwidth that even like encrypting the data is you know like it's a it's just choking you so I think that you know stuff like this because not only will they get just you know not only will they be able to exchange way more data but they'll also be able to take better security precautions too yes you're going to have to shout really loud can I get a repair in between us could someone relay what he's saying to me I can't hear that could someone relay what he's saying I can't hear him what about it oh inner city can I okay that's um well we currently don't have and I mean that's we would have to if we wanted inner city connection at this point in time we would have to have like some sort of we have to do like an IP tunnel over the internet I mean I don't if there was enough you know there's enough saturation of this movement I mean it would be you know potentially have like a measure of the entire country however the technology that we're currently using won't scale to that point so right now we don't have any inner city links we don't have any VPNs or anything between the different wireless communities um that's a good question it depends on the question is how how large can we grow before we kind of reach the scale of the women's 802.11b and it's we can't really I would say that you know we probably could probably not have more than maybe 10 or 15 core backbone routers because I mean you only get 11 megabits and it's not actually you're not even getting 11 megabits out using the throughput is about 5 or 6 so that's really I think like one of the big one of the limiting factors I don't really I couldn't give you any numbers I don't know alright well I'm gonna wrap it up now and get on to the next presentation and I'm gonna head out to the bar if anyone has any more questions for me thanks and I'll talk to you later bye


armzindagi where each of us are desperately waiting for the mentorzindagi to begin after the lockdown. You know, I'm taking the creative liberty here simply because I have a panel of leaders from the creative industry today and we are all here to talk about solidarity in the face of adversity. I'm Neeta Nayar, assistant editor of Impact Magazine. You cannot see me but you can hear me I hope and I have with me Tarun Rai, chairman and group CEO, Vandaman Thompson, South Asia. Hi Tarun. Hi. I have Rohit Ori, chairman and CEO of FCB India. Agnelo Dias, creative chairman of Dan and also CCO and co-founder of Tapru Densu. And do we also have Hemant here? Hemant with us? No, we don't have him. At least we can't see him. Not yet. Not yet. Okay, so let's start with the discussion who hoping he can join us somewhere in the middle. As we speak, each of your agencies is probably finding new ways to create magic in isolation. Mr. Rai, let me direct my first question at you. Vandaman Thompson is one of the first agencies to come up with video ads made from home. As soon as the lockdown was announced, Beat Tata Pravesh or Mankind Pharma, were you yourself surprised when the agency literally came up with an ad in less than four days, when generally it takes more than a month at least to come up with a video ad person? I mean, A, you are absolutely right. I think we had a little bit of an advantage because we started working from home maybe around four or five days before everyone went into a lockdown. But we had already decided that it was too unsafe to really be in office. So we were already working from home. But you're right. I was actually very, very surprised at the way we completely took to working from home. All the tools existed for us, but nobody was obviously using them as frequently as they could. And it was amazing how seamless it was. I think we declared working from home on a sync on Monday, which is around 16th of March or something. And when I went to office on the 17th, 80% of our people were working from home. And by the 18th, I think 100% were. So I was actually quite amazed. And this is one thing that I find in this entire lockdown scenario, I think in terms of adoption of digital technology, I think we have compressed maybe two years of adoption into two weeks. So yes, I was very pleasantly surprised as to how quickly we all adapted to working from home. And I actually think that the speed has been fantastic. So we were ready for it, but we were just not had enough motivation to be actually adopting this technology. And it's really spectacular.  And I'll talk about that later when you talk about production. But yes, it's been an amazing speed with which we have adopted the new way of working. You know, Aggie, something similar holds for you. I think the Vivo ad was made in less than a week's time. Now, did you feel that, you know, all the agencies under the dense umbrella at that point when the lockdown was announced, had the wherewithal to literally not just work from home, but also deliver and record time, and what kind of preparation went into creating that kind of a setup for your team? Aggie. I was a slightly different view from Tarun's on the process. I think when a catastrophe of this kind happens, the immediate first phase, which we are going through now, will be the great relief that you can produce something setting in a report in remote locations. I think the greater badge of honor is the fact that you could produce a film without having met people. But I think that phase will soon pass and the process will no longer be the human plants and everybody should start looking at now producing good ads, whether sitting at home or not, not just producing an ad. Because while it's a great demonstration of our spirit to able to pull something off collectively as an industry, including Wonder Man, and I'm sure even FCB, it is by no way an ideal situation for a creative because if you eliminate the circumstances under which the ad was created, we would still have to stand up and be measured against what we normally call a good standard of advertising. And that will be what eventually everybody will look for in the next phase once the thrill of having produced something without having met at all passes. We still have to evaluate the ad for an ad sake because eventually consumers are not going to buy into something because of the mitigating circumstances under which you created it. They are just going to buy what they see. And that should stand for what we used to do as an industry in the past. But it is a good first step to show that we can do something. Now we probably have to move to a stage where we can do that something under these circumstances as good as we used to do it before. Hi guys, hello. Hi, Hemant. Hi, I got it. Just in time, Hemant. So we have with us Hemant Stringy, CCO, BBTO, Mumbai. Hi, Hi guys. We were just discussing the problem that agencies face with the lockdown. I was just coming to the fact that there was a small thing that production houses were not really accepting work for multiple reasons. And the owners literally fell on the agencies to create work end to end for the client. Now do all agencies have an in-house production house which can actually take care of such an eventuality?  I mean it did become like that. Maybe we didn't have it or maybe we didn't know it. But eventually it turns out we do. Okay. Anything interesting that came out of BBTO that way? Or something that you're working on? I think there's something that are coming up. And yeah, we did find out a lot of hidden talents from within the agency whether it was editing or voice over or acting. So yeah, I think there's a lot of interesting things coming up. Yeah. And we're having a lot of fun actually in a way because we're discovering, there's a little bit of discovery that's happening in the process and it's quite exciting in its own way. Rohit, let me bring you in here. From what I have seen, you've not really been very big on work from home ads per se. But as soon as the lockdown was announced, you announced partnerships with XP and D where you launched a virtual experience platform for brands. And a few hours ago, even with the network pay. Now tell me, are you looking at the lockdown period in the non-traditional way where you're literally moving away from video ads, but instead focusing on creating solutions for the clients? It's not about moving away from a particular media to another media. What we are saying is that the big question before everybody now is what is the recovery phase going to look like? What is post COVID era? What's the shape that it's going to take? And we've been talking about this, it's that the virus is not going to go away. So it's not that on the 4th of May, we're going to all rush out of our homes to our offices and to the malls and to movie halls and life will come back to normal. So that's not the case. So if that's really not going to be the case, what is the new normal of behavior going to be like? And that's what we are getting ready for. So XP and D really helps us look at offline experiences online and we've done a fair degree of work already. We've done this big Sangeet Sethu concert where we had almost 51 singers come together and it was a seamless concert over three days anchored by Akshay Kumar. So that was one piece. What we launched today was our partnership with Network Bay to look at retail and see what's the new normal and that's why it's called Retail Day 1 where what we are saying is that in the new world there is going to be a fair degree of play of social distancing. So if social distancing is something that is going to carry on, what's the impact of that on retail? What would consumers expect when they go into a retail outlet? What's the shape and size and the form that retail outlets will take? So understanding that and really building capabilities behind that is really what we were looking at. And that's an interesting point. Let me bring bounces off everyone here. You know what is your opinion Aki? Is it more important to provide solutions to clients at this point as opposed to doing video ads or maybe also doing video ads but more important to focus on the solutions? Are there over and above that? See I think traditionally traditionally creativity in advertising was built on the two founding evaluative parameters of affinity and behavior. Behavior loosely translated as sense and affinity that translated to behavior which means people put money out to buy a product was the complete package that advertising brought to the people. Without the behavior box being ticked off, creating affinity for creative was something that maybe even any content house or any production house or any movie studio could create. But what advertising brought to the table was affinity that actually made people behave in a certain way or put their money in a certain place. I feel personally over the last few years the accent or the focus on affinity had grown far too large and to a certain extent behavior on public sales was not something that marketeers and advertising agencies were as concerned about as affinity and this was driven by a lot of visible demonstration of affinity on the internet and therefore that visibility of likes and popularity tended to become far more important than eventual change in behavior. But now since brands and products are affected at their home which is moving off the shelves in the marketplace. I think they would be from a marketeers point of view in the short term immediate transfer of their attention to actual affinity driving creative or behavior driving creative from affinity unlike say in the immediate pre-COVID phase when it was largely about publicity and if behavior comes along with it that's fine if not let's move on. But I think they will now look at actual delivery sales in the marketplace because if they don't look at that we don't look at that there will be no money to pay for affinity building and it will have to be far more hard dribble in that manner. So the advertising agency's role now will in a way switch back to maybe a few years back when there was enough intellectual knowledge within the agency to actually provide solutions for clients sales problems rather than their popularity problems or fame problems. Before we move on let me ask all the people who are watching us to please tweet on e-forum webinar also you can ask us questions here we'll try to take up some of them. Moving on you know like you were saying Tarun you know is because there's no way to complete the purchase cycle right now what are the unique solutions you are offering to your clients right now what are those suggestions? See the point is that the question is not if we are going to lick this virus the question is when but the fact of the matter is that right now this particular situation even though we have seen crisis before even 2008 was a global crisis but we haven't seen a crisis of this scale and in terms of just the speed at which it's come upon us and the other thing about this crisis is the complete uncertainty even today sitting in Mumbai we don't know what's going to happen post 3rd of May so for our clients the situation is almost looking at things with a twin lens one is the short term and the other is the long term one is the period through the crisis and we have to help them manage it and the other is the bounce pack in every sector and some sectors have been affected far worse than other sectors but every sector all the companies are affected but the momentum of the the velocity of the bounce pack is going to what's going to differentiate one company from the other currently and that's why we are working with all our clients and we are working with tools which are scenario planning tools because you can't say for sure when the this crisis is going to get over and secondly what the new normals are going to be when it does get over so if you don't have a scenario planning tool it's going to be very difficult for you to actually be ready for the velocity bounce pack that is going to differentiate you from the others so we are very engaged with our clients and I actually think that scenario building and using tools to build scenarios is absolutely important and also to advise clients during this period about how to communicate everyone knows that in the short run marketing spends are going to be a challenge they are a challenge when production is even for FMTG companies when production is only at 40% it's going to be difficult some of our clients were into retail and aviation and hospitality their revenues have fallen as much as 90% so therefore there is tightness but we know that once this crisis is over the brands who have actually added value to consumers life through the crisis because you must remember that while brands and companies are challenged so are consumers and if during a crisis period the brands who have added value who have kept communicating partner the consumers they are going to benefit and they are going to to my mind benefit in terms of gaining market share so we are constantly in touch with our clients again looking at things where the twin lens one the short term and the other is the long term and in the long term building scenarios to figure out what the new normals are going to be. There are some of the clients I think also changing their business models completely like I think Zomato not just introduced contactless deliveries they're also starting with contactless dining same with Swiggy they just don't deliver food anymore they also they are your personal courier guys I mean they have something called Genie Swiggy Genie which delivers absolutely everything so that's interesting I mean even brands and agencies are supporting them to do this take this forward in some yeah you are right in in another market sorry to to interpret I'm just adding to your point in another market a very big international airline is actually using their catering service to partner with people like Zomato and Amazon to deliver food at home to people so you are right people are looking at how they can actually adapt and innovate through this crisis as far as the advertising industry is concerned I think even Rohit deeply mentioned it and so did it is difficult for us to formulate a strategy till we know the definiteness and the permanence of the problem so for example if it is going to be a lockdown forever then the production industry and the advertising industry can actually start working on an infrastructure or structure or a model that works in this scenario but it settles down we say okay it's not going to be forever it's going to be 40 percent this way it should be built studios with the sanitation room where everybody gets sanitized when they enter and leave in the evening it's no point building permanent structures of new methods of operating right now when we don't know the definiteness of the problem that lies ahead so at some point in the next two or three weeks there may be more clarity on exactly how much the world has changed and for how long and whether it's forever and then I think it will be fair to look at what new modes of operating we create but till then what we are doing is probably in a way you could say survival within the given fluid moving goalpost that exists out there and I think all agencies are doing a good job of it but if you are seeking an answer to a question of whether there will be a change in operating procedure business models in the future it will only be formed up once we have affirming up of the extent and the permanence of the scars that the crisis has left us and I'd like to come to Rohit and Hemant you know salary cuts have started across across sectors how is the advertising agency coping on that are you looking at salary cuts and even layoffs for that matter for your employees add to your respective agencies so do you want me to go first Hemant yeah sure yes you know I was listening to Martin Sorrell kind of I think last week and I heard him say that people are most important and companies especially advertising agencies where you know one of the things I keep talking about and I think I mentioned that to you Nita we are the only industry where our factories are working right all the factories are working we are producing at a rapid space a pace for all our clients so we don't have the lockdown because you know ideas don't need to be locked down ideas can you know are free really and and what we are saying is in this context what Martin was actually talking about was that you know people are the most important thing and if if agency has to come back on its feet quickly you need to kind of remember that you need the people right to make that happen you need the good people to make it happen so my point of view on that is you know at this point in time there's an enormous amount of emotional and stress that all our employees are going through right so the idea is that at this point the most important thing is to reassure them and one of the things that I'm doing all the time is we have a daily communication with them I'm doing town halls every week with the entire set of people working with us to reassure them about what is the most important thing for us and the fact that people and it's times like these where organizations need to stand up and stand behind their employees so that's what we're doing obviously not blind to the fact that there is going to be a dip in revenues and and we need to watch behind that and so obviously the there are we've curtain and the expenses right so the the whole thing is to find ways that we could cut all all expenses all discretionary spends etc at the first pass and then you know depending on how this actually pans out what happens does this open in in may is and and there is a semblance of return to normalcy that's when I think we will take a call on what needs to be done beyond that but right now I think we we are standing by and not cutting salaries or you know doing any kind of retrenchment at this point. Okay in month what do you think you know though agencies are dishing out great work I'm sure that the pure of an impending recession is getting to us all so how are you keeping your team in order and together. Yeah absolutely I think you know what Rohit was saying the fact that we are in a way a people first business right our people are our resources our people are are you know what keep it going and at the same time like you know at the beginning of the conversation we discussed that this time is actually giving an opportunity for all of us and all of our people as well to sort of do more I mean you know the people are doubling up in a way people are sort of offering more value adding more value because we know that there are a lot of outside factors that you know can't be worked out right now and people from within the agency are doing more than they were earlier and it's absolutely important for us to keep the morale of the people going and I feel like what was saying you know are in a way far more in touch than we were earlier we are having far more conversations than we did earlier and yeah I think I think we're all focused at you know making this work and as of now it doesn't look as bad and you know we're just hoping for it to get better. Rohit if I may ask you you know we have a late Diwali this year do you see advertising coming back with a bang you know after the lockdown is lifted in the latter months of the year or do you think clients will be that much more cautious about spending henceforth at least in this one year I don't think we've lost Rohit Tarun would you like to take that? Yes I'll take it and to my mind the silver lining of this terrible tragedy from the business point of view is that the second half of the year is actually a more important year for sales is the festival season like you said Diwali. We don't know again as I said the difference between this crisis and all the other crisis was the uncertainty we do not know how things are going to pan out but if and as I said you know there is discussion about V-shaped recovery versus U-shaped recovery and how broad the view is going to be but I'm still hopeful I mean there's no other option but to be optimistic and hopeful and I do think if you see whatever news we are getting from the European markets as soon as the lockdown is relaxed people are expecting the economy to bounce back rather quickly I was also watching news and we have some auto clients and two-wheeler clients and their expectation is that there is going to be a pent up demand and it is going to bounce back pretty soon so I am hopeful again we don't know I am hopeful that by the time Diwali comes around the situation would be much better and the clients would be therefore more bullish about achieving their season and festival targets so I do expect a bounce back to happen in the second half of the year as I said it's a question of living with uncertainty and we just have to build scenarios and keep planning for it but on the face of it and from whatever we are seeing in Europe and even in China and South Korea our offices in China in Beijing it's some 60-65% all back in office in Shanghai it's 100% South Korea is getting to 100% so from the example of Southeast Asia and more recently Europe it seems to be that the bounce back is going to be a pretty good bounce back and I think the client should be spending at that time you wanted to add that I saw I yeah I think first of all salary cuts are you know not having increments is not the first time ever for the industry the most industries have over the years and most agencies have had to tweak a working model where you don't take increments in a particular year so it's not that agencies have never done it before and it's a you know it's a catastrophic kind of position it's been done in the past and if it needs to be done now it will be done now and I think there's no harm in it but I think emotionally for the young brigade especially coming through and creative one silver lining I see attitudinally in what has happened is that I feel that there will be a rise in some amount of vocational respect to the job you do because there was to a certain extent a bit of irrational flirting with the vocation you choose or the job you do because this let's try something else let's try something else all the time had resulted in a erosion of the depth in the craft that we pursue and I think with and everything became a transient flirtatious kind of approach to work vocation careers and it had reached a pretty high level before I'm hoping that now that there will be some kind of emotional emotional kind of shock there will be an increased respect of sticking to what you've chosen to do doing it when loyalty to your vocation to your company to your industry and seeing it out there seeing it out in a manner that makes you practice it well rather than keep trying new things all the time so that I hope is is the positive that most of our young talent in the industry should feel and bring to the table which which I felt was a bit of a problem in the pre-COVID I think we'll always now discuss this thing in the pre-COVID era versus the post-COVID era just like we wait for the post-COVID era one of our viewers has asked this question you know currently the advertising is cute to digital and the TV only no other mediums are pretty much facing the heat do you think COVID will change the way marketers think about media this is from Manish Kupreja So you know one of the things that I felt you know I think the print medium actually is had a golden opportunity which they missed quite unfortunately because it was a fantastic opportunity to recast what the the medium actually delivered and I think unfortunately what we've seen is that you know even though newspapers don't come home anymore but they are online versions and the online versions replicate the offline versions and it is so difficult to read that you really wonder as to why nobody is thought of you know a new format where it is easy to read quick complete redesign of newspapers which kind of enables that because you can't expect that in the new world and in a new mobile first you are still going to be you know sending out the old format newspapers right so that I think is an opportunity missed and you know it is something that the print medium is going to look back and wonder why why they didn't do that and before that let me just let me just make this small announcement tomorrow we have the bridged brand talk virtual series at 3 30 where we will be speaking to Mr. Tarun Arora CEO Zyvis wellness please join us back then and coming back Hey month I would like to know you know our our clients really cutting agency costs today along with you know cutting down on advertising spends you know I would want to believe that agencies are that much more important for brands at this point in time to navigate through the crisis but do they think otherwise are they cutting down agency costs no I think again you know because we are speaking on the topic of solidarity in a way I think what has been interesting in a time like this is solidarity of every kind right so you know that certain clients are understanding what the agency would be going through and are being considered of that agencies are being considered of the fact that what the client must be going through and reacting accordingly whether it is you know it could be whether it could be offering a reduced cost or whether it could be offering extra work that they can do at a time like this but I feel that again what's been amazing is that you know usually solidarity is something that you get together and sort of plan on something versus in a time like this I mean at least at least I've noticed the solidarity has been far more instinctive in that way whether it is agencies understanding the clients or clients understanding the agency so I think that is something that's pretty fortunate and it's are you saying the client is a less of dictators right now no I think I think he's right and he said when you say agencies will renegotiate costs it's not as is conventionally thought because because they lose respect for the kind of work you do or they lose respect for the role you play but it's more because of from a straight of all shoulders to the wheel we all are all in this together so everybody contributes in some manner to tighten the belts and you know pull us through but not because they value the role of advertising or creative any lesson but more because almost every department is reducing costs so not just advertising but what do you think but our pitch is happening right now I mean our clients actually choosing to jump boats at this point well we maybe I can't say now but we just one hour back an hour back got a new account but it's largely clients actually who didn't have a permanent agency but I've not heard of maybe it is there but I've not heard of somebody seeking to switch and you can see in these times because if I just put myself in the client shoes it would be quite an ordeal to orient a new agency into your brand in this week yeah but if I if I may add Aggie is right but surprisingly there are six pitches lined up between now and the end of the months but these are I think largely pitches that were initiated before the lockdown and what we are hearing is though that's not an ideal situation but the reason at least some of these pitches are going ahead is because they don't they are not sure when the lockdown is getting over so they're saying at least let's go through with it even though it's not ideal but they are I'm surprised also that there are so many pitches a few are certainly than earlier but there are still pitches that are that we are participating in and as I said there are six pretty big pitches between now and the end of the months so I think also what's happening is that the clients also have taken to working from home and while in a in a test situation you do miss the body language as you're presenting you you do miss the immediate feedback because your presentation slide is up there there is a lack of chemistry because it's difficult to have chemistry over a zoom or a microsoft team's call but still I think its work is going on and I think largely because clients are not sure whether third of may in Mumbai or in New Delhi is going to be the end of the lockdown so they don't want to postpone things indefinitely you know I asked yeah and I honestly think that I think I honestly believe that you know we will probably come out of this lockdown with a stronger client agency relationships I think that may happen and I'm quite certain of that but even the simple the simple reason why I asked this was I remember before just when the lockdown happened there was this post by Pratap Sutan a cco of bang in the middle where he said you know he will not take on any agency any account wherein the agency when the brand is moving simply because the agency is not being able to deliver during because of the current situation and everybody I think a lot of creative heads and went and hit light and you know said you know we should do this is the way we should be together cut to two weeks later like Tarun said there are like six pitches happening and also there are new pitches initiated perhaps where one industry leader told me that there were 20 agencies participating for one account so is all this solidarity just for a matter of talking you know when we we are in such forum so is it just a matter of survival at the end of it end of the day. Neeta as I said these are pitches that were initiated before the Covid crisis and the lockdown and the reason they are going ahead with it is because they're not sure when the lockdown is going to get over I don't think and this is what Agi pointed out unless you are aware of some pitches I don't think people and clients are initiating a new pitch in the last months so these are pitches that that were initiated before beforehand and they postponed it hoping that two weeks or three weeks is going to be the lockdown once it got extended they're saying okay let's get on with life so so there is a difference unless you have heard something I've heard about something but I don't want to disclose it at this point so that's your exclusive right Neeta exactly that's for later in some cases like we've had a few pitches which have started after the lockdown but they didn't have an agency so I think advancing their plans to go go to market much faster now and looking for an agency which they didn't have so I mean I would struggle to actually live in a be in a company and say let's get a new agency in let's dump the old agency in this period and now let's orient the new agency into the brand it's the worst orientation you can have absolutely you know and another thing that I just wanted to ask is you know ads of course are important even in just just for the sake of engagement with clients and but the problem is there have been too many manifestations of work from home start something new from home and literally 30 brands are chasing the same line of thought now crowdsourcing is also becoming like quite popular it's a new formula are you was going to get bored of this after a point so what is next for the agency after crowdsourcing how are you going to go forward is it going to be animation or how can I can I take this which is what I was saying I was saying earlier that you know what has surprised me is the is the the innovation and the and the ability of the creative agencies and while I know about my agency I'm sure there are examples at FCB and and then so and so would be video where data people are so resourceful and innovative that we have actually shot four TBCs in Mumbai and these were shot in the in the director's home with a cast from his building maintaining social distance distancing and everything and the creative director is actually watching the entire shoot on Microsoft teams and doing it live and and these are TBCs because here these are clients who are in the FMC D sector their product is relevant to the situation which we are going through today and as I said that there is a short term and then there is a long term and if there is a long term and there is a medium term you can't indefinitely postpone your strategic plans because you don't know how long the short term is going to be so the clients are going ahead and I think this animation and using stock footage and using photographs with with backup tracks I think is going to lead to and I think Aggie mentioned it that you know as an industry we will we will recalibrate and we will get into a different model where we can actually even produce and shoot and it's beginning to happen and as I said I believe the shoot has gone off very well and there are four films shot over three days in two residential complexes and with the star cast of people from that society and let's see how it comes out but I believe it's gone off well. You know in fact the other thing Neeta is that for us the the really interesting piece and quite honestly I I didn't didn't expect a reaction like this but when Doordarshan brought back Mahabharat and Ramayana we you know actually went back in in time and picked out all Amul ads from that period we ran some 46 of the old ads again right and it was just incredible because everybody said it was fantastic it was we recreated the same ads that ran at that period of time so so that worked really well as well because you know you were harking back at something it was nostalgia and I you know in many ways I think brands that bring back a lot of the the trust and the the the fact that they've been with the people of India you know for for the longest Amul had this whole the the line which is Amul Doodh Pita Hai India and the fact of the truth of the matter is today when you go to a retail outlet and we have one in our building and I go there the only milk that is available is Amul right so at that point in time you truly feel I mean and I react to it as a consumer not as you know there are clients and and you know I work in an advertising agency and I think Aggie mentioned that I don't know whether Tarun did but the fact is that you know if a brand is there for its consumers at this point in time you remember that that that you will definitely remember when you come out of this crisis because you know it changes your relationship with that brand because you know what happened to the other global multinational brands and milk is milk is an essential commodity but it's not available so so that that kind of actually triggers a new relationship a new connection and you know obviously you know when the brand comes out of the crisis they will have it'll have a whole new set of consumers as well yeah and also need that to add to that I feel that all of us know the limitations that we have with production at a time like this including not just the client but even the viewers and I feel in a time like this what will stand out is not the piece of advertising that the brand is doing but actually the message that is behind that execution as well so it's you know the message is going to play a very strong role along with the execution of it so before we close down the discussion let me ask for one learning from the lockdown from each I think Agi wanted to say something Agi I'm sorry I've seen to go back to your question this immediate first phase where the process is the big hero will pass and rather than say you know given the circumstances it's a good ad we have to move on to it's a good ad period not given and sooner or later like you yourself said every ad will be short remotely and under lockdown then eventually it will still be the better ad that prevails even today I think for client were given a choice to say given a decent ad short on the lockdown versus a brilliant ad short without lockdown but when you choose you will choose a latter so it's a transient phase where we are learning to operate within within a whole lot of constraints but eventually that will pass and we will have to move to saying okay the novelty of you having shorted in such difficult circumstances is done because now everybody's shooting it in difficult circumstances now which is the better ad so it will come back to you it will come back to that currently a lot of the work is enjoying the spotlight because it is impossible to have any ad out forget about an ad short under lockdown so that's that's the first step but it will move to the next stage absolutely can I can I have one learning from the lockdown from each of you before we close the discussion Agi can we start with you one learning from the lockdown I think my point that I made earlier which is the importance of behaviour as equal to affinity for a brand is shows now because the brands that are doing well are brands that had not lost sight of building behaviour along with affinity and the brands that have quickly vanished at the first hint of trouble are brands that had only worked on affinity for affinity's sake without building behaviour yeah well to me as I said the thing that completely took my surprise was how efficiently we can work from home and while it is not ideal you miss the energy and production is a problem and the buzz and the social interaction and I know that as the lockdown continues working from home will lead to fatigue but I still I still feel that it'll be a it'll be terrible if you don't at least take this learning of working from home and take it into a post-covid situation where at least 50% of the solution can be working from home I would love it if we can implement on any given day a 50% staff which works from office and 50% which works from home I mean imagine the infrastructure of the city the air quality pollution levels waiting for the elevator in our new building in Mumbai everything will get sorted out and I think it's eminently workable we talked about flexibility earlier and I think the digital adoption as I said two years of digital adoption is now compressed into two weeks so we should learn from it and at least strive as an industry maybe because we are a knowledge-based industry to at least have 50% people on any given day working from home so to me that's one learning we should take forward yeah maybe offices will just be working rooms really I think so and a pool table laggy hey what do you think I think one of the learning has definitely been you know I mean it's a realization in a way almost that it's the first time when we've said hope everything's well with you and it was not a formality but it was a genuine question and we're really you know far more compassionate and considerate towards each other in a time like this beat among beat in a life beat at work beat with our employees beat with our clients and I just hope you know we've always hot off compassion being too much of a hard work where you say oh you know we're doing so much there's so much to do I don't have the time to sit and do formalities and do small talk anymore but you know you genuinely want to know how the other person is doing at a point like this and you really care for that and I think that's a great learning and I hope that is something that we can continue even after we come out of this and last few words from you Rohit so you know for me like what Tarun said I think that you know I wanted to just talk about two things one is that you know work from home of course has been a miraculous learning I mean it's just completely opened my eyes and quite honestly I was quite sceptic about it so when we and we went into work from home about a week before the lockdown was announced and I did mention to HR I said you know I'm not certain this is going to work we have such a young you know workforce and I actually called everybody and we did a town hall and I said hey guys this is work from home it's not a holiday right so you can't kind of pack your bags and go off to Goa and say okay this is you know I'll come back when the lockdown is over but you know I was really surprised and I think that was that was for me a big learning the kind of responsibility that everybody is showing to working from home the discipline the efficiency right the productivity is is phenomenal because you you've cut out that that that whole thing of you know travel and and I think that's that's been great my second big learning has been actually a leadership lesson you know and I think what it's really helped me to get a perspective on seeing who are the big the true leaders in in the organization because this is a test of leadership right because you know being able to lead an organization lead your group lead your office lead your agency at this particular point in time with this sense of fortitude and a sense of direction actually sets you apart and you can you can actually see you know who are the guys who will you know if you were to do a succession plan then you can clearly see a succession plan in front of you saying here okay the other guys that I think are ready right so to me that that's been a great it's like trial by fire right so the people who walk through that you can see them and you can see them like like Rohit mentioned the lockdown is a true test of leadership and let's also hope that you know in the face of adversity we see better and more creative ideas emerge so thank you so much for joining all of joining us it was great talking to all of you and for the viewers I hope you can also join us back tomorrow at the pitch brand talk virtual series which is with Mr. Tarun Arora CEO and Zaygas wellness thank you so much for joining thank you thank you thank you so much thank you and I must say you're exceptionally calm and still even at a time like this oh there you took a case thank you so much Nita