Meredith, if you can unmute, go ahead and ask Adam a question. As to where you feel as though you're at physically right now? I feel good physically. Meredith, by the way, I feel good physically. Hard to say where I'm at, but I've been throwing a lot. So this last time, I threw one inning with a hitter in there swinging. And before that, I had already thrown two and three innings, which is probably unnecessary, but so I feel good. I'm just trying to up my intensity level a little bit. I feel like my volume is good. Just got to get a little more intensity, but no complaints. Do you have any idea what the schedule will be for you as you head towards the 23rd? Yeah, I know we're pitching tomorrow, so that'll be two days' rest, and then we're going to do one day's rest for a little bit, and then we'll do back to back. And then I think we'll have all the boxes checked at that point for us relievers. You mentioned upping the intensity. Will it be difficult coming in? You usually came in middle innings maybe later in the game to come in in those situations and not get the extra adrenaline jolt from the crowd? Don't know yet, maybe. But I think ultimately, a lot of the adrenaline comes from the anxiety over the situation and the nervousness, the kind of the fight or flight of the game situation. So if I'm in a tight game, I'll probably have plenty of internal adrenaline or whatever you need. So we'll see. It remains to be seen, but I'm not too worried about it. Thank you. Thanks. We'll take the next question from George King. George, go ahead and unmute. Adam, in spring training, you said you wanted to work on being quicker to the plate, and then spring training vanished. I know you threw a lot under quarantine. I was wondering if that time period had hurt or helped you to reach your goal of being quicker to the plate? I abandoned the whole no-glove tap for all circumstances. I'm still doing it now, unless there's a guy on first. And I've practiced my no-glove tap man-on-first quite a bit. I feel more comfortable with it now than I did in spring. But just need more reps with it in a real game situation and these inner-squads and all that just to see how used to it I am. Trying to do my best to be quicker, but I don't want to sacrifice my pitch quality either. So it's kind of a double-edged sword. So just first base then, right? Yeah, just a guy on first. With a man-on-second, I can hold him with my eyes, I think. But with a man-on-first, I have to be a little quicker. Otherwise, they're going to try to go. Take the next question from James Wagner. James, go ahead. Hey, Adam, what's up? You and the family are doing well.  All that stuff has to change. I don't know how familiar you are of every details in that manual. But what so far has been the hardest to do or what do you have to do?  It's just... Yeah, the fist bumping's not that hard, but I do spit a lot when I pitch. So that's something I'm trying to get used to not doing. And then what else? Also, bringing our own stuff to the shower, like there's no communal soap or shampoo or anything like that. The first two times I went to clean myself up and get out of here, I forgot it, had to go back to my locker. It's not a big deal, but it's something I got to get used to, little things like that. And then do you think some of this stuff is just like to help change your behavior? Like, who's going to be on you? If you do spit during a game, is that part of each other or is it just to help change your behavior basically just overall, unprincipled? I have no idea. I mean, I'm going to try not to think about it while I'm in a real game. Now I'm trying to hold back just because that's what it says in the protocol is not to do. So trying to hold back and get used to that, make that second nature the not spitting part, but been spitting a lot while pitching for a long time. It's kind of a nervous tick maybe. So if it happens in the game, then we'll address it then. But I don't know, like I said, just trying to practice it and get as comfortable as I can with the new stuff. Take the next question from Andy Martino. Andy, go ahead. Adam, 60 game season for a reliever. Does it impact the way you'd be willing to be used at all one way or the other, whether more days in a row because it's a shorter sprint or more careful because you're ramping up faster, or would you like it to just be treated as if it were normal season once you get going in terms of how often you're used? Well, I think now this year we don't have the luxury of kind of pacing ourselves as much. So I think as long as I feel like I can pitch and be effective, then I want to be available, you know, that's very much one of those things that depends on the situation. Sometimes you pitch two games in a row and you feel great that third day. Even three days in a row feel great that fourth day. And sometimes you pitch twice and you feel real lousy. So you just got to be honest because you don't want to go out there compromised. You know, at the end of the day, the goal is to win the game as a team. So it's not like a selfish thing. But if I feel good enough to go, I'm going to want the ball. Would you push yourself a little more if you felt a little tired knowing that it's only 60 games? Yeah, but I mean, like I said, it would just have to be one of those things where I felt like I could go out there and execute my pitches and get guys out. I mean, that's the biggest thing. It doesn't really matter. You know, it's whatever it takes. I mean, a lot of years we've had like a two days on one day off type of rule throughout the season. But then, you know, September comes and desperate times call for more pitching.  You want the ball. You want to push your team into the playoff. So, you know, for me, I think just we'll play it by ear. We do have a lot of guys. I don't think we'll get too worn out. But I mean, you know, one of the things you take pride in as a leading guy is, you know, taking the ball as much as possible. Thank you. Take the next question from Brendan Cutty. Brendan, you can unmute. Adam, thanks for taking the time. Good to see you.  How did those originate? Where did the idea come from, those? And did you take anything from those? Did you learn anything from Gary during that time? It just originated because I knew he had moved up here. Even before spring training started, we worked out a couple of times together here. And then when the shutdown happened, I was driving back up to New York. We talked on the phone trying to figure out our throwing situation.  So that became attractive. And then we just kind of made it work from there. I think it's always nice when you have multiple guys on the same team under the same circumstances. I want to stay in shape and get better and all that. Learning stuff, yeah. I mean, I watched him a lot very closely. We talked a lot about his pitches, how he holds them, what his mentality is behind them, see what I can do to add to my game. Obviously, we're different pitchers, but there's always some small stuff that you feel like you can improve upon, especially learning from one of the best. So I hope it worked out for me and remains to be seen how it'll turn out. Thank you, Rob. Thanks. We'll see. Does anybody have a last question for Adam before we let him go? Back to James. James, go ahead and unmute. I'll just ask another one. Just because you guys, this whole season won't be different. But how would you guys feel as a team? I mean, you don't get to hang out the same way. You don't have the same meetings. In terms of that intangible aspect of being a team, how has that gone? How will that go? Because, yeah, meetings are different. You guys can't sit and talk in the clubhouse like before. Like, how has that gone so far? I do think it'll be different. I've noticed that I haven't even seen some of the guys in the 60 man just because we're all spaced out, coming in at different times on different programs right now, which is how you have to do it. I do think once it's a unit and we're kind of playing, I'll at least see everybody, be able to talk to them a little bit. But obviously we can't sit around the table and hang out like normal. So it'll be a little different, but I'm sure we'll find a way to pass the time in a safe way together. And that's still important to us because we're in this together and it is a team thing. So I just want to try to maintain that team feeling as much as possible.


I'm the author of Malignan Self-Love, Narcissism Revisited. Healthy narcissism is common and welcome in adolescence. Their narcissistic defenses help them cope with the anxieties and fears engendered by the demands and challenges of modern society. Leaving home, going to college, sexual performance, marriage, and other rites of passage are very taxing and intimidating. There is nothing wrong with healthy narcissism. It sustains the adolescent in a critical time of his life and shields him or her from emotional injuries. Still, under certain circumstances, healthy narcissism can transform into a malignant form, destructive to self and to others. Adolescents who are consistently mocked and bullied by peers, role models, and socialization agents such as teachers, coaches, and parents, such adolescents are prone to find succor in grandiose fantasies of omnipotence, omniscience, and revenge. To sustain these personal myths and narratives, they may resort to violence and counter-bullying. The same applies to youths who feel deprived, underestimated, discriminated against, or at a dead end. These youths are likely to evoke narcissistic defenses, to fend off the constant hurt and to achieve self-sufficient and self-contained emotional gratification. Finally, pampered adolescents who serve as mere extensions of their smothering parents and their unrealistic expectations are equally liable to develop grandiosity in the sense of entitlement which are incommensurate with their real-life achievements. When frustrated, such adolescents become aggressive. This propensity to other directed violence is further exacerbated by what Lash, Christopher Lash, called the culture of narcissism. A willing civilized in a civilization which condones and positively encourages malignant individualism, a civilization which elevates bad hero worship, remember the movie Born-Kill-It, a civilization which regards traits and behaviors such as exploitiveness, inane ambitiousness, and the atomization of social structures and support networks as welcome. The nation is a hallmark of our age, not only among youngsters. When societies turn anomic under both external and internal pressures, narcissists tend to become violent. So in societies that are subjected to terrorism, to crime, to civil unrest, religious strife, economic crisis, immigration, widespread jobs insecurity, war, rampant corruption and so on, narcissists come to the fore. They become pillars of the society and they become aggressive and violent and in need of fulfilling their sense of entitlement. This is because communities in anomic states offer little by way of externally imposed impulse control. They offer little by way of peer regulation of impulses, of penal discipline and rewards for conformity or good behavior. These societies have nothing to offer to their members because they are in a process of disintegration. In such settings of collapse, narcissists become serial and mass killers on a greater, bigger Hitler or a smaller scale and the lessons are no exception. They are equally influenced by their environment and serenity. They imitate and emulate the adult world. They too want to partake in the orgy of destruction in violence that has become our society and that is so visible and manifest in our media.


have former fellows as speakers, and I know that there are many of them also online watching. We've enjoyed hosting the fellows so much, and they have truly enriched public knowledge on the field. I'm Christine DeBrye. I've been working on developing and overseeing the fellowship program, Public Knowledge, for seven years. First under the leadership of Gene Kimmelman, who launched the program and is here with us today. And now with the leadership of Chris Lewis, who has added his own ideas and approaches to growing the program. We'll hear today about how fellowship training is a gateway to jobs and public policy, and ultimately a way to add your voice to the conversation, as laws are being made. Our program focuses on opening doors to people from all backgrounds, increasing diversity in the field, and creating opportunity. Two-thirds of the 22 fellows hired into PK's program up until 2020 were female, almost two-thirds were people of color, and over one-third were from families where at least one parent was born outside the U.S. They have gone on to leadership positions on the Hill, the FCC, across the tech policy field, and as you'll see today, even the Nevada State Senate. At this point, we've hosted two dozen fellowships and dozens of internships and externships, and our goal is to continue to create more opportunities. As part of our work, we also created a project to examine diversity across the tech policy field and learn more about how to increase diversity and inclusion. You'll hear more about that during the program. At this point, I'll kick it over to our moderator. He was a two-year fellow at PK and is now leading tech policy at Common Cause. Thank you, Yosef. Thank you so much, Christine, and so public knowledge for hosting this really timely discussion and for inviting me to moderate. As Christine mentioned, my name is Yosef Gattachu, and I'm the Media and Democracy Director at Common Cause. Before my time at Common Cause, I had the pleasure of working at public knowledge as a fellow for about two years. So really the fellowship program is near and dear to my heart for a couple of reasons, but before I get into my experiences there, I just wanted to share that when I was in law school, I was really interested in a career at the intersection of law, policy, and politics, and really trying to figure out how to make systemic changes that impact real people. But I didn't really know how to do that. I didn't know what skills I needed to do that. And I was lucky enough after law school to land a fellowship at public knowledge where I realized what I wanted to do and I'm doing now is to be an advocate and to do advocacy work to learn about all aspects of advocacy to make real change. And so over my two years at public knowledge, while I did a decent amount of legal research and writing, I got a great education and great training in all other aspects of advocacy work. So things like talking to the press about key policy issues or organizing coalitions and bringing in diverse stakeholders into coalitions or engaging in a number of film meetings to affect legislation in Congress or talking with regulators at the FCC or the FTC. These were all things that I really had a great experience and learning about at public knowledge as a fellow. Things that I didn't really realize played a role in the public policy aspect of how laws get passed and how policies get enacted. And that's really the second part of the fellowship that really changed my perspective on issues and over my eyes to how to make change. It's the strategic thinking. And that's what I always credit PK for, is how do we think strategically about making policy changes and advocating for key issues? So while we learn about coalitions and talking to Hill staff and building a Hill strategy or filing comments at the FCC, the question and the issue for me has always been how do you bring all these pieces together? How do you do these things in a cohesive way where you have a strategy in place where you are making that change that you want to see? Or you are making an impact in one type of policy or another? And these are the types of skills that I'm doing now and taking on now in my current role at Common Cause. The idea is that I'm building campaigns and campaigns based on advocacy where I am organizing Hill meetings and figuring out a Hill strategy. I am talking to diverse stakeholders to figure out how can we form a coalition to make a change in a key policy issue? How do we bring folks to the table that aren't always at these policy tables? And doing it in a way where I'm utilizing all the skills that I've learned at PK. And the last point I want to mention is that the fellowship program isn't something that ends with me or with individuals. What I've learned is that you always want to pass it on and use the training and skills you've learned to bring on the next generation. So I've been fortunate enough to hire my own fellow at Common Cause who I am hopeful is learning some of the skills that I learned at PK. And I'm passing down a way where he is understanding what it means to be an advocate, what it means to be a public policy or public interest advocate to make change in ways that others can see and follow your lead. But enough about me. I just want to turn it over to this all-star lineup of panelists who all had unique experiences in fellowships and the public interest advocacy space at large. So we have Chanel Hardy, who is currently the civil rights head at Google. Jean Kimelman, who is the former public knowledge president and currently at the DOJ. Dallas Harris, who is the state senator at Nevada. And see on test five, we just completed a fellowship at public knowledge. I want to start with Chanel. And I'm hoping you can just share some of your experiences as a fellow and what your career trajectory has looked like over the years. Hi, everyone. It's good to see you today. And USF, I would definitely say when you say the all-star panel, we definitely include you as part of that. For folks who have not followed USF's work closely, you are missing out. He is definitely one of the key leaders present and future of ensuring that we have communications and telecom and media and insert all the words, tech, policy, world that really benefits all of us. So it's a privilege to be with you today, as always. And with the rest of this panel, I was a fellow for PK. And I like to think of myself as probably kind of an outlier, which I think is exactly right. I came to PK's fellowship after completing law school, where I thought I wanted to be a public defender working with juveniles. I had taught fifth grade in what was then called inner city DC. All my students were on free breakfast and free lunch. You can imagine there was some really challenged environments that I was seeing. And it was clear to me that simply being the best teacher I could be while certainly tremendously impactful, didn't begin to touch the systemic nature of the challenges that we're holding my students and their families back. So I went to law school as part of my journey to better understand how systems and power impact the opportunity of people like myself and my community. And so after law school and seeing something similar, I spent a year as a student attorney in a clinic with public defender service and just really saw again, incredibly laudable, necessary work with outcomes that were for me disheartening at best because you were still working inside horrendously flawed systems. And so I was kind of at the end of my law school career, fundamentally rethinking what I might want to do. I thought policy might be the next possible journey to explore. And so had the opportunity to interview for the Consumer Reports Fellowship under Jane Kimmelman. And that was an opportunity for me to... It was kind of funny. I'm sure Jean will say when he gets a chance if he comments on it, it was an opportunity where I was thinking all kinds of things mattered. None of them were consumer issues. And I laugh to this day about how the consumer movement has just not been effective in helping BIPOC folks to see the ways in which these issues are fundamentally issues of justice. So I talked about being interested in education and criminal justice reform and economic opportunity and fairness and ended up learning about, among other things, telecommunications and media policy. And as soon as I began going through back then boxes of papers and, of course, being on the web online as well, I really saw that in all the rooms that I was in. There were very few people who looked like me, young, female or a person of color. And so it immediately was like, this might be a thing. And as someone who has always been a passionate bookworm and lover of film media in all the ways that we tell stories, it was clear to me that those who have the power to tell the stories have the ultimate power. And so I was extremely passionate about that opportunity. What I would say was most meaningful for me and the fellowship were one, had that fellowship opportunity not existed and had kind of like the happy accident of me even finding out about it occurred. It would never have occurred to me that there was a career path for me in tech, telecom, media or policy, other than at the very, very highest level. I'd not had a family member who was doing it or friends. And so it really opened up a whole new world for me. What I think was great about my manager at the time, Gene, is he really did kind of say, go try things and make mistakes and get out there. And of course, I did do that because I was in rooms with being significantly less experienced than most of the people in the room, but it allowed me to learn quickly because there's nothing like being thrown in the deep end. And by the end of my one year fellowship with Consumer Reports, I really had developed a strong network across the kind of multicultural political community in DC, in particular those who were engaged in issues of telecom and media policy. I had, of course, built a network within the consumer world and just frankly built up a good body of substantive knowledge. And then in addition to that, I was given the opportunity to just kind of follow around with the other advocates within the organization and learn from them. So everything from backup cameras and medical malpractice and debt reform, bankruptcy reform, all of those different types of things, and to see experts in action. And the final thing that I think was meaningful as you talked about, USF was the opportunity to have substantive work products that I could really stick my teeth into and be able to demonstrate at the end of the time that I had really made a contribution to the organization. And the last thing I would say about that fellowship experience for me is it actually also helped me recognizing the value of my voice as a person who I don't want to say underrepresented or whatever, a BIPOC person, that I had a unique point of view that was necessary even as a young person because my experience, to the extent that I spoke up and acknowledged things that were happening enriched the conversation. So I think all of those things were important. And as I, what it did for my career trajectory is just send me in a career trajectory that buried all of my interest, passions, and skills to go into politics and policy to make a difference. And so I went on to work at the Federal Trade Commission on Capitol Hill in leadership at one of the nation's oldest and largest civil rights organizations and ultimately to Google, where I'm continuing to work with all of these communities and to advance this work in a way that allows me to continue to give back to fellowship programs. So I continue to support in and partner with organizations like PK to fund fellowship programs and to really bring together networks of fellows so that we can continue to support each other. I have so many more thoughts but I'll stop there for now. All of that is super helpful. I did want to pick up on one thread you discussed earlier. You had mentioned that when you were a fellow for Gene, you saw how you were one of the very few young people, woman, person of color in this space. How was it interacting with other colleagues and trying to get your thoughts and ideas in the conversation? And as your career has progressed, how do you think about getting more diversity into the policy space specifically around tech issues and how fellowships kind of impacted that? Yeah, well, I will say some of this is probably my own personality and some of this is probably having Gene's support. But I was fairly assertive about just kind of being speaking up and contributing my opinion because I felt there was a safe space to do that. It didn't always have produced the result I might have wanted but I was able to be heard. I remember Free Press was having one of their conferences and I was chosen to be part of a group of people of color attending and had to comment on my experiences of the conference. I was fairly skating. When you're young, you're pretty you know, no holds barred, which I think is a mixed blessing. And so, you know, I had quite a an analysis about what I saw and continue to see as a tension between kind of the quote-unquote public interest tech world and the civil and human rights world that has been working on many of the same things for many, many years and calling it something different. And so I talked a lot about that. But I think that what I again learned and I continue to see this throughout my career is there have been spaces where I've been like I have nothing like there is no comparison. We're just in totally different worlds in terms of the credentials that I'm bringing to this room and that others are bringing and that's not about whether I am, you know, talented or skilled.  And yet I would have something that I could offer because things just don't occur to people outside of their lived experience in most cases. And so the fact that you can say something that seems really obvious in a room full of people like you and actually kind of cause folks to think is why it's so critical for us to have diversity in terms and why it's so critical to be heard. I think that one of the things that we can do to create lasting impact with fellowships is to grow it beyond a pipeline program. We really have to be thoughtful about, you know, having a permanent career path for fellows, often within organizations. And we need to ensure that the same interest and passion and DEI that created led to the creation of a fellowship program actually is part of the guiding principles of leadership of the organization or else we have a disconnect. And what I mean by that is it's fascinating to me, again, I'm not picking on I have many wonderful friends in the consumer movement, but it's fascinating to me that despite seeing fellows in the consumer movement over the years that were people of color, this it's still an incredibly, incredibly non diverse movement that has so much impact on so many different people of various backgrounds. And I think a lot of that is we're still using the same terminology. We're still going to the same places to look for people. And then we're surprised that it's not having an impact. One of the things that has really motivated me in thinking about the the kind of informal fellowship program that I run is the way in which I've heard leaders talk about what is now the environmental justice movement and how, you know, climate change, the climate change movement used to just appear to be about the baby seals. And why don't brown people care about the baby seals? Well, what about the brown babies? Nobody seems to care about the fact that we have brown children who are dying of asthma and lead poisoning and having horrendous life outcomes because of the same issues that are facing the baby seals. And once we could kind of create that get rid of that artificial barrier, we really saw, of course, the tremendous leadership that we've seen really coming up under the manner of environmental justice. And so I like hearing terms like tech justice or thinking about tech and tech policy issues as social justice issues, because of course they are. And I just always think about the fact that the air the issues areas that most impact so many of us are intentionally not particularly interesting and talked about in complex ways so that if you don't have a particular pathway in, you know, it seems like this is not something that we're going to we're going to focus. Oil we get tobacco we get we got to understand and we're starting to understand I think some of the issues around tech, telecom and media. So does that answer your question? Yes, yes. All right, good. The key messages lived experiences are critical to some of these policy decisions and fellowships are one of the ways that we can get more of that into the space. I want to turn things over to Gina who created the fellowship program at PK and has really done a lot of work around creating fellowship programs and mentoring fellows. So please, Jean, share your thoughts with all of us in terms of the fellowship program you started and where you see the fellowship program going in the future. Thanks. Wow, this is just awesome seeing all of you. Gosh. Well, you guys speak for what this is all about better than I ever could. So I have to start off with a little disclaimer. I'm currently working in the Justice Department. I'm a Deputy Associate Attorney General for the Associate Attorney General, Vanita Gupta, which so I'm not speaking up after the Justice Department at all. I just have to say that, but I'm just thinking of Vanita Gupta as you guys are talking and how this all fits together. So I don't think I can add anything to what you've said and what I'm sure Dallas and Seattle are going to say about diversity. That's a piece that was a total goal of creating a fellowship program, but my personal experience is what drove me and I'm so glad that it could become part of a diversity discussion because I came out of law school and I got thrown into public citizen advocacy position I knew nothing about and just it was an immersion crash course in understanding regulatory agencies, the court cases that were relevant to them, Congress and doing not one issue, not two issues, but like five issues at a time. It was just an unbelievable experience and I thought that's something that really helped shape and mold me and give me opportunities and I wanted other people to have that. So I'll stop there for a minute and just say of course there have been fellowships for forever and of course people have mentored other people for forever and it's no big deal on one level. But what I found was in trying to create a program that as much as I kind of gave everyone else that opportunity to have that same experience that Chanel described and Joseph you described a little bit, it was as much a learning experience for me to just see how people could fit into what was going on and how people from diverse backgrounds could teach me of what I wasn't even thinking about or what I wasn't seeing. Think about a la carte Chanel. I stepped into so many messes myself, you guys stepped into some of your own, but what really came out of it in the first instance was after having done it at Consumers Union and coming to public knowledge and wanting to build it, I had to hire somebody to actually structure this program and run it and that's Christine de Bray who has done a phenomenal job doing that and it was the learned experience of you can't just throw everybody in the soup and just expect them to just manage everything. There's got to be guidance, there's got to be a framework around it, there's got to be back and forth, there's got to be a feedback loop where people who are fellows aren't afraid to say what's going wrong and what they're not letting to learn and what they don't know and I'm sure it's not perfect but it should be ongoing, it should be for every time we do this we should figure out how to do it better and so I really learned from all of you guys and that's a really critical part of this and whether that changes the power structure and the diversity dynamics of organizations, I'm sure not enough but I think it's a critical element to build those paths for all of this really talent and excitement of young people coming in to influence how organizations run and think and are changed over time but today I also want to talk about something else that I just has come to me as you know the times change, the environments change and what jumped out at me as I was reflecting back on the fellowship program is almost everybody who comes to public interest I mean we're disadvantaged we're not the money people we're not we're not the people in power almost everybody comes with ideology as on their sleeves it's what's driving them it's their passion and whatnot and what I felt like that my role was and of the program that I was trying to build was because on the ground learning helped me navigate with the big law firms and the big companies that had power and the people who had insider knowledge was that you needed to build that into a program so that the people with that ideology could have the full opportunity to maximize their impact in the policy process and that's not by just going to parties with public interest people or people who are tech progressives or people who are your best friends it's having to deal with the enemy or the other people who you disagree with or however you want to care the people who are not like you and um and the fact of the matter is most people in congress are never going to be like you um and many regulatory agencies as well and it was the whole idea of creating frankly the best and the brightest the ivy league of doing advocacy is not in ivy league schools it should be in the halls of congress and in ngo's and in regulatory agencies and in the courts where you need them but it a lot of it is right there in washington for dc related stuff and then every state capital and you can go on that's the ivy league that matters here and a structure around it that um really enables the interactions the skill development uh everybody in an organization can contribute something to a fellow and a fellow can contribute something to everyone there and that's really the process that that's there when i look out there at all of you and many others who aren't on this i think of some of the most accomplished people in the policy world and who have traveled in different positions across different kinds of organizations government private sector but who um who have that unique set of skills that isn't book learned and taught that way that can't be learned that way that has to do with practicing policy taking risks learning from mistakes and building on it and i think that's what's really that this this is all about and so back to where i started you can have your own fellows you can have um uh uh you know summer interns you can have informal relationships but i've got to say that the the thing i am most proud about in terms of pk and all of you participating in this and many of you have worked through pk is the idea of a structure that can perpetuate this and can grow this over time and um and where people can use it as a model for other structures but we can't let this just be one-offs this has to be built into the system or i don't think you're ever going to change you're never going to have the chance to change the power dynamics that are at play you may never succeed but you got a much better chance by building this kind of a growth opportunity and skill development opportunity into all of our work so i'll stop there super helpful i want to pick up on one of the threads you said a lot of really insightful things and what really caught my attention was this ivy league of fellows concept of not having folks in ivy schools or other elite institutions but as fellows with their lived experiences making changes and really one of the things that i always refer to you as the godfather of fellows because you have just mentored and trained so many fellows over the years and pk to my knowledge is one of the few organizations that actually has a sustainable fellowship program but one of the things i'm noticing more and more is that as fellows go on to other organizations other groups are trying to approach them hire them and we're not actually getting new talents we're not actually getting more diverse people into this pipeline or structure that you talked about so the question really is how do we attract new talent both from individuals who can be great in this space but also on the organizational end to create these programs to give them opportunities well i i have not been able to crack that that not completely and i've gone to so many funders who you know i've described it as great idea but not programmatic that's not the way we fund um if i were talking about uh human rights in the global space people would get that it's capacity building but somehow when you call it fellowship training opportunities building the pipeline it doesn't resonate that way so i i wish philanthropy would embrace this but i haven't been able to you know crack that nut um i think we got to get in the schools i mean when i started at public citizen we were paid ten thousand dollars a year right out of law school it was a long time ago but ten thousand dollars wasn't much of that either the expectation was nobody was going to last more than two years because you couldn't live on it and so the only good thing we did was constantly recruit at schools because we knew we needed people now we did go to the ivy leagues and i wish we had done a lot more than that but it you know it's you've got to get out there you know i think we need to go into the communities and show people and i know pk's been trying to do that hope others are of getting the opportunity in front of people i know that i would never have gotten my first job if i hadn't seen it in a newspaper um advertisement they public citizen wasn't coming and recruiting at uva law school i a lot of other people did but nobody looked like that and um we've got to do that so that's another part of the infrastructure of being able to get the word out there to schools and get in front of people that this is an opportunity and then you got to have enough money to make people have a decent um uh be able to make a decent wage on a first job at least like a clerkship level or something like that i mean you want people who are committed to public service at least um so that you're investing in the right kind of people and so government level salaries or or clerkship level salaries is what i would do i mean those are the things that jump out at me immediately but it it's not in anybody's day job to do this if you're just trying to make change or if you're trying to organize or if you're you know you've got your deliverables so it's got to be built into the structure of how you get build a pipeline of talent yeah i think that's the exact approach i like to see other groups emulate it's not just about let's rely on one or two organizations to create this program and then we can just take the talent they trained up and take advantage of that but let's also recruit find diverse talent and build our own fellowship program so we're all contributing to this ecosystem of diversity and public interest advocacy on that note i want to turn it over to Dallas Harris who i had the pleasure of actually working with at public knowledge for about a year so Dallas please share some of your experiences as a fellow if you can what did you learn during that time well it's great to see you yosef um just a quick little story before i jump into it um what was about a year into my fellowship at public knowledge and yosef actually came down to public knowledge and met with me when he was thinking about um this fellowship and i wanted to learn a little bit about what it was about if it was something he'd be interested in i kind of bullied him into applying and ultimately he came down to one of two who became the fellows from george washington the year after myself so i've been with yosef since he was an itty bitty baby lawyer and it's really nice to see the the advocate that you are today and you know i think that is really about public knowledge right i mean the way you you summarize your experience was mine um you know i i had to learn very quickly that when you don't have money you have to be smarter you've got to know the issue better and it's not enough to know the issue you also have to have the traditional advocacy skills to persuade people even when you have uh the right idea right like that is often not enough and that is something i use all the time my current position in in the state senate right that's something you learn very quickly um i had the privilege of learning about monopolies right i remember having tons of discussions about what it means to monopolize uh infrastructure monopolies aren't necessarily uh bad right they just have to be regulated in a certain way and that type of thinking and understanding about markets um really sticks with you in all kinds areas of life so um not only am i in the state senate that's only a part-time gig i'm actually an energy attorney at a law firm now uh and so i'm constantly dealing with issues related to infrastructure return on investment uh strict regulators like the public utilities commission and it reminds me often of my days going into the FCC participating in rule makings we have something called 233B but that's basically our administrative procedures act and so i know all pk fellows are are fairly familiar with that and you know these things are our life skills not just um uh professional ones and so uh you know when you have the opportunity to sit on panels uh to moderate panels to sit in the room with FCC commissioners to sit in the room with staff of congress members uh you know these are not experiences that everyone gets to have and so you know you take you take advantage of it i had the opportunity to be um on television i had the opportunity uh to be on the radio and that is all something um that has to be deliberately set up by someone like jean like christine uh and like ourselves and and again i've taken a lot of this with me i i kind of almost didn't realize it until now but in my last session i had uh five students from the university uh who kind of interned with me throughout session and i i i guess i'm kind of noticing that my inclination to do that probably comes from what i learned at at public knowledge and and being instilled with that idea of climbing the ladder and then of course making sure you're reaching back down and bringing others up with you super helpful so you know you actually showed me the ropes my first few months as a fellow at pk and i shadowed you and a lot of the work we were doing we did meetings together and the work comments together and listening on your press calls i think you're actually i'm not mistaken the first fellow at pk who got quoted in the new york times and it was a story where other advocates much more senior than us were also in this story so to me that was a huge accomplishment that you were able to do that so i guess my question is how did you maximize your time as a fellow the program was only two years and there was just so many things that we had to had a chance to work on but how did you navigate that period of time and what were some of the things you figured out in terms of this is the best way i can make change or this is the most effective use uh my time working on this issue or the other so i think um the the way that i tried to maximize my experience was to become a sponge i i spent a lot of time in herald feld's office uh learning about uh uh telecommunications not just policy but like the actual statute the history uh you know you spend time uh talking to everyone in the office who was unbelievably willing uh to share that knowledge with you even though they also have their own work that they had to get done in order to you know advocate in the way that we wanted to so you know really maximizing my experience was about listening and talking um and knowing when to shut up and writing notes and uh and then saying yes right do you want to be on this panel yes uh do you want to uh go to this meeting yes right branching out into issues uh that you may not have known much about but diving in right uh you know jean mentioned being at public citizen and taking on on five issues you know that's that's how you you jump in and you learn right and and it's really a challenge to get both that depth and the breadth uh but you you find the balance because there's only so many of you and so many issues to cover and things to do and and so um be active uh keep your ears open and you know seek out mentors they're invaluable um talk to your colleagues you know i i think um having some fellowship amongst fellows was was really important and was a key part of the experience as well yeah i remember spending hours in herald's office just trying to accumulate every single piece of knowledge he was sharing with me so i i totally lost one you on that this one other question for you and i both went to law school together and you know how law school is it's very much i don't think like a lawyer case law legal research and writing but not so much on the advocacy side of things whether it's co-meetings or building coalitions how did you make that transition from a legal education to working as a public interest advocate in a fellowship yeah uh yo so that's a that's a great question i think it was with a lot of help um you know at public knowledge there's a lot of lawyers um who were also uh transitioning from that traditional legal legal work uh to the advocacy piece and so i spent a lot of time you know in meetings watching chris lewis uh do his thing even though he's not a traditional lawyer you know we we spoke spoke to uh phil uh barenbroek a lot um he's a lawyer and had come from a firm and so you know again i think it's about listening and and leaning on on people who are there to help and being willing to ask questions right um it is a different skill set and you're right you don't you don't learn it at law school um you you may learn trial advocacy but that's a little bit different when it's one on one and we're talking about you know issues that can get heated and passionate especially when you do have your own um experiences or or or you know things are particularly meaningful to you thanks i want to turn things over to ceo now who just completed a fellowship at pk and also wrote what i think is a really groundbreaking groundbreaking report on diversity and early career positions and fellowships so please see on share your experiences thank you yes it's good to see you uh so during my fellowship at public knowledge you know i'd like to research that was part of the uh technology policy diversity project and we believe this research was important because technology is increasingly integrated into our daily lives now and the policies that govern its access and its use uh can have a disproportionate impact on people of color so you know when we're having policy discussions about things like you know broadband access or algorithmic bias it's important that those discussions include people who have experienced the world differently because often they're going to offer very different perspectives on what those policy proposals should look like uh so as part of the project i sent a survey to nonprofits that had a focus on uh tech policy issues to learn more about you know what kind of early career opportunities they typically offer you know like internships and and fellowships and what the racial ethnic diversity looked like in those roles we wanted to learn also what steps organizations were already taking to try to increase diversity and how they would you know characterize their challenges and that in that area uh you know we we focused on early career roles um you know for reasons uh others have already mentioned uh they are foundational in helping people build professional networks that can propel them in their career uh they also offer people the opportunity to learn about a variety of tech policy issues under the guidance and support of senior experts uh in the field within the organization um so i'll i'll share some of the highlights from the report but i would encourage you all to read it if you haven't i believe there is a link in the event invitation uh that will allow you to take a look at it you know one thing we learned was that job opportunities are primarily circulated within tech policy groups and their networks so access to these networks is actually really critical uh if the originating networks aren't diverse you know mining them for job opportunities uh it won't likely yield a very diverse applicant pool um you know one thing to consider is expanding recruitment to a wider range of institutions including academic institutions that primarily serve people of color um in addition to sharing job announcements with you know minority surfing academic institutions organizations could also consider posting on site or virtual events uh to increase the visibility of these opportunities we also learned that for organizations that did offer early career roles the rate of pay was sometimes low um people who are not able to lean on their families for financial support um are less likely to pursue opportunities uh where they can't you know pay themselves or afford rent um so that is one area where we can make a meaningful difference and really change the career trajectory of someone aspiring to enter the tech policy space um we also learned that uh few organizations routinely collect data on recent adversities and roles and you know it's really hard to set goals for increasing diversity in your organization if you're not keeping data and looking closely at the trends in your organization data can help help an organization develop measurable goals so the the full report it's now in the chat I think it includes all the survey results and what I've learned from talking with thought leaders on diversity and I'd encourage you to read it and my hope is that it will inspire people to reflect on their own practices in their organizations and think about what they can do to try to increase diversity thanks for that yeah the report is is amazing and to me what makes it so unique is that civil society oftentimes likes to critique uh other institutions and rightfully so but oftentimes doesn't look at inward and look at some of the challenges they have with diversity and hiring early career positions what one of the things that uh I know you mentioned and Jane mentioned I think Chanel mentioned is the salary piece uh a lot of times these fellowships pay very little I know when I was uh looking at fellowships in law school most of them that I saw paid a stipend or nothing or uh very little PK who was actually one of the ones that uh paid a livable wage so I was wondering if you had any recommendations or could talk a bit about how the report looks at ways that organizations can meaningfully pay fellows or compensate them in ways that they can actually pay their bills the reason I discussed compensation in the report is that um you know it's I want people to understand that this is a place where you can really make a difference in somebody's career choice you know if we don't offer a sort of a prescription on what exactly to pay interns and fellows but what I'd say is this you know if you live in major city I think about what it costs you to live there comfortably you know rent commuting costs food and and use that understanding to inform your compensation structure even if the opportunity is only eight weeks 10 weeks or 12 weeks that's still a really long time for someone who comes from an economically disadvantaged background it's a really long time to for someone to have to support themselves uh a wage that will will not really allow them to take advantage of the opportunity we have a few minutes I did want to open it up to everyone and was curious if folks wanted to just share one or two memorable stories that they have based on their experience as a fellow or their time mentoring someone who was a fellow open to anyone who has a story they want to share so I'll share one thing while people are thinking of their experiences the other side of this is for a lot of organizations and I remember this even for some coming in at PK saying you were going to put a lot of resources because we want to pay people well into fellowships for someone who's only going to stay one year or maybe two years I tried to push this two years but for a lot of the staff it was wait a minute we got to spend all our time training them and you're taking away from the work that we're doing and how is this really gonna these people are gonna you know they're wonderful but like we don't have the time we don't have the energy you know it's like it was not structured into the system and I think you got to take that into account here that you're putting people into a broader ecosystem and what I found and and I'm Chris Lewis is a perfect living experience of this and he's now embraced all this is that you can show pretty rapidly that fellows add value and that and staff get it and when they see that that is the way it works they love it and you know and Chris has built this in now that that I left PK and I think it's a you know again any one person's can be you know can be more difficult can be you know take more time but I feel like it's kind of like built into the DNA now at PK that everyone sees this as value add all the way around even though people leave and and and and you mentioned kind of some kind of a the pilfering in the public interest community cross but that's a good thing is because what that means is that Olivia Mott-Wine who was my first fellow ended up at National Consumer Law Center and you ended up at Common Cause and it's and it's it's what builds the broader ecosystem of all our relationships both within the public interest community and outside look at Chanel at Google I mean these are the relationships that will matter for all of us to be effective and so you know I think you know it's kind of funny when you see people move from the oh my god I got to train another one to the wow it's so wonderful having this new you know energy and these great you know interesting people come into our organization I kind of saw a sea change over time as you built the the program out. I'll just follow up on that by saying I think my you know when I think about the memorable experiences for me they were really where I was allowed to start building things in a way that really it's not an exaggeration to say laid the groundwork that I could draw upon for the rest of my career so you can imagine working in corporate even though this is my first corporate job 95 percent of the informational interviews I do with folks are allegedly about the issues and things like that and they're ultimately about how quick can I get a job in corporate and I think folks are always surprised how much I push back on starting your career in corporate because especially as people of color how many places are there where you are and I'm not saying that this is can be taken for granted across fellowships I think we're talking about kind of what it looks like to have a strong fellowship program where you can be given the space and the time to really develop your voice around a set of issues that are important to you and build a record that you can draw upon to demonstrate expertise it's kind of like what I loved most about I apologize my dog going is going crazy in the background um what I love most about online content creation early days where and going back to Jean's anecdote about a la carte that you could actually expose yourself to an audience and prove to all of those who said there's no audience for your content I mean like everybody who's told Issa Ray like there was no audience for her content is cooking themselves now right but that actually was a moment um and to be able to say look I am going to be able to write a paper because they need me because there's not enough people um so I can help write a paper um and share a um a authorship with Jean Kimmelman and Mark Cooper right like stuff like that that you can use the rest of your career um in such a short time as a fellowship is just really really tremendous and so I think there's huge value for there was huge value for me as a fellow and I think so much value if those who are creating the programs can really provide that space and allow fellows to take risks I just think this can't be overstated the importance of that I'll give you one more um one of my first fellows at consumers union young gentleman named Mr. Phillips uh he asked him why he was got that interesting first name and he said his father wanted to make sure he was respected uh he came in with a project at consumers union because we did consumer advocacy and said there are no reasonable grocery stores in most of the neighborhoods that I've lived in and that all my friends live in and we need to do an analysis of this we need to figure out how to do something about it and my first reaction was wow that's interesting that's not what we do at consumers union and then I stopped and thought well why don't we do that at consumers union and that was exactly the kind of thing where I is like wow what did I just create here I just I don't know but I just learned something that I really should have been thinking about all along probably should have known it in so many ways automatically but it wasn't my day-to-day lived experience so that was kind of that really jumped out at me as you can see it's stuck for for probably 25 years yeah it's always amazing how many things pop out when you have new people in the space presenting ideas so we have a few minutes left I do want to turn things over to Chris to close this out but thank you so much to all the panelists here who shared their experiences presenting ideas and discuss how we can grow fellowship programs in the future which I think we all support Chris take it away sure first of all thank you Yosef and all of you for participating in this event I learned so much working with each of you I hope folks really take heart the stories and lessons that you shared because this is how we build a field in the public interest field and in tech policy that does what's right for everyone in our country Yosef folks trying to poach you because you're that good so thank you for taking the time to moderate we were happy to tell folks how good you are we're glad they tried to poach you Chanel my friend thank you for speaking in here because folks don't know is just how much mentoring Chanel does across the field she is not just someone who works in corporate at Google but she helps connect so many people and we also thank you for making sure that we had funding for our fellowship program this past year thanks to you and Google for that gene I can't say enough about what you started here and and by the way thank you for shouting out Christine gene because she is so humble about the work that she does gene folks he had he had this big vision for where we to take this and he connected people to make it happen Christine makes it run every day and having to fill Jean's big shoes at the top of the organization I learned that very quickly and what gene said about how we have to make sure that you don't just throw people in the deep end we've refined over time and I think you said it accurately Jane you know we've created with Christine's leadership mentorship assignments with our staff and folks really do embrace it because they have a vested interest in their mentee doing well and learning the skills and then having them go off and and be a part of their broader network that network building is incredibly important if we want to continue to create a field not just early careers but throughout the ranks of public interest so so thank you gene for all you did thank you for being here I know you have a lot going on in the Department of Justice and then in Dallas and see on thank you guys you guys are shining examples of what you can go on to do along with Joseph coming out of our program and we hope to continue to come back and we want to build off of the work that you've done see on and folks can help support that here at public knowledge and at other organizations it's fascinating and this is why I wanted to talk just at the end here and share how many folks are talking about fellowship programs now we have built in seven years of public knowledge a program that is sustainable in the future we're trying to to to firm up that sustainability and so proud to say that with the support of of the family of Sherwin side our former legal director we've created this Sherwin side Memorial fund folks can give to support that fund thank you to Lordus and Dr. Kong for helping us create this fund but this Sherwin side Memorial fund will be used to support internships and in the future fellowships as far as as long as as long as public knowledge is available we we want to have this fund working to support livable wages for folks to come in and learn what it means to be a public interest advocate we just started this August in Memorial of Sherwin side our legal director one of the few people of color at public knowledge when I joined the organization someone who taught me about all sides policy that I hadn't learned about and someone who really cared about bringing folks along so we hope folks will check it out and we're going to continue to promote this fund so that what we've now branded our PK trains program which combines fellowships internships and other opportunities can continue to live on so just really proud of what you all have done we're trying to carry the baton forward gene and continue to build a field that looks like America last thing I'll say and then we'll wrap this up this is the last in a series of webinars celebrating our 20th anniversary and as appropriate we started with our founder teacher son and her co-founders not to leave out David and Laurie but now we've kind of moved through the issues and the work of the organization to to what really I think is you know our fellowship program PK trains is the most exciting thing that we've added in the last several years and we have a forward-looking event to wrap out the 20th anniversary year that we hope folks will check out this is our public knowledge 2020 visionaries event it's going to be held at 2pm on December 16th and you'll should be able to find information about it on our website but this is looking into the future we want to honor and recognize young talented influential people in tech policy like the folks here who've come through our program and celebrate how they're going to shape technology policy into the future so we hope to join us on the 16th to wrap up our 20th anniversary year and we hope to continue to follow follow public knowledge in all the ways that you can as we go into the new year in 2022 because we have so much important work to do subscribe to our YouTube channel this is available on our YouTube channel as are all the other 20th anniversary videos and lots more so just wrap up by saying thank you to all of you for participating and we look forward to seeing you at the next event on December 16th thanks everyone where's Christine Debright Christine come back there she is thank you Christine


What does success look like to you? You need to be crystal clear on that North Star because once you do that, then you can reverse engineer the process that will give you the best chance of making that happen. The best group that I've ever seen do this on a very practical level was Coach Bart Lundy who was the recent coach at Queens University for the men's basketball program down in Charlotte, North Carolina. And Queens University has one of the top division two men's basketball programs. They regularly make the final four in division two and they regularly have players go on to play professionally. And Coach Lundy figured out through breaking down a decades worth of film that there were four key metrics that heavily influenced whether or not they would win the game. For those that follow basketball, these will be rather obvious. For those that don't, hopefully you'll see the breadcrumbs that I'm dropping for you. The first is turnover differential. If we can have more possessions than our opponent, it gives us a better chance to win. Number two is offensive rebound differential. If we can take more shots than our opponent, it gives us a better chance to win. Number three is free throws attempted. The free throw in college basketball is the highest percentage shot per possession. If we can take more of those than our opponent, it gives us a better chance to win. And four is three-pointers attempted. The three-pointer in college basketball is a massive weapon and if we can take more clean looks from free than our opponent, it gives us a better chance to win. Well, Coach Lundy and his staff, after breaking down a decades worth of film, figured out that when they come out on top in those four categories, they win 97 percent of their games. I'm going to say that again because I don't think y'all think that's as cool as I do. When they come out on top in those four statistical categories, they win 97 percent of their games, which means statistically and mathematically they are almost unbeatable when they do those four things. So now I'm going to ask you lovely folks a series of rhetorical questions. What do you think Coach Lundy and his staff talk about? Emphasize and reinforce every workout, every practice, every film session, and before every game. Those four things. What do you think Coach Lundy and his staff use to design every workout, every practice plan, every film session, and every game plan? Those four things. Coach Lundy and his staff never talk about winning, they never talk about trophies, they never talk about banners, and they never talk about championships. They only talk about those four things. You know why? If they do those four things, the winning, the banners, the championships, and the trophies will all take care of themselves. They focus on the process and I want you all to be able to take that example and apply it to your businesses. Get crystal clear on what winning looks like to you, what your North Star is, and figure out the measurable analytics and the measurable positions and roles that members of your team need to execute on a daily basis to increase the chance that you'll reach that North Star.


king for the residents and for users of the line tool thank you very much I will direct that question because that's kind of a hard one for you to answer about why highways perhaps is what their problem is we'll ask the people in terms of planning and we are in a very strange situation where usually it's everybody saying to highways why aren't you objecting to this everybody is saying that and here we've got everybody saying it works but highways are objecting so you could help us understand that a little bit my understanding is that the high authorities concern is one of methodology more so than the actual issue of parking itself so you'll note in the third bullet point of paragraph 32 reference to the lambeth methodology for parking surveys that is the county council's preferred methodology they don't look to endorse other methodologies that has been used here and so they retain an objection my understanding is for that reason clearly the concern and the judgement members have to make is the likely impact of parking associated with this use on the amenity of nearby residents as well as highway safety and that's a judgement of members to make but that's my understanding of the high authorities concern it's one of methodology more so than anything else if we're to understand that clearly that as that methodology was not used they have therefore not given an evaluation of the impact of this because that methodology wasn't used the county council is not satisfied with the evidence that was provided thank you very much do we have any other questions? one from councillor Milne's chair thank you chair so I just wanted to pursue that point just briefly and ask so that from a practical perspective when your all is currently full with its 30 or 40 people what impact does that have on the parking in the vicinity? we haven't seen problems with parking with existing use people who have visited the hall have always managed to find sufficient space to park and bear in mind also that many of the hall users are very local and they walk so up till now we haven't experienced problems either for hall users or for residents and members can we just keep in focus as well so what's been put before us is change of use regularising I think change of use rather than any additional capacity that's being proposed councillor Cahn I just wondered if you considered recommending a time limited permission to see whether there is a problem which you then could be even new if there was no problem at the end I suspect that's a question for the officer is it? maybe we'll come back to that one in the debate then thank you very much for your time thank you very much and we do have local members and we have councillor Cahn would you like to speak now or? I'll have a word now that would be nice yes we can yes I've come to fully support this application Messingbourne has never actually had a designated village hall it's a thriving village it's a growing village it's a vital village it's got other facilities but a village hall is one that's always lacked and this need was identified strongly in a village survey done a number of years ago the and this is the ideal the best and frankly almost the only opportunity the village will have to secure a village hall in what must be in many ways an ideal position right in the centre of the village it's equidistant from the major residential areas and I think it was indicated one killer most of the residential areas are one kilometre away a lot of other villages have had to build village halls distant from that but this is highly accessible to people in the village it was also the old school village hall it's had a strong history of community use over very many years and that history and recollection is still there very much alive in the minds of the people within the village so this strong community use is a big advantage for this hall it's used at the moment as a sheltered facility for the people in the back now that will continue not all the time nor that I want it all the time so we will continue to actually what a parish intends to continue offering it as a facility in addition to that the village library is housed there if this did not go ahead we'd lose the library, there's nowhere else in the village for it and it had to move from the village college a number of years ago because they couldn't accommodate it and there are plans at the moment it's a book cafe and the books all get mixed up and the plans are to actually turn the what the and it may reply consent but the kitchen area into a self-contained room on a library facility so we can use it again as a library in the village and that's quite important the other thing is that other meetings take place here as well other other other other other village groups and I didn't know there were so many village groups until we actually started this process because there's a considerable enthusiasm within the parish for this to go ahead and for people to actually make it work make it a success and there's a long-term commitment from a variety of other people within the village this will be essentially for the village it won't be for other other other purposes so people are able to access it very conveniently, this is something I don't think the county is fully taken on board at the moment the majority of people actually walk today to the facility they can get there on foot because of the close proximity of residential areas and certainly from time to time quite large events take place I remember a number of months of it will actually last year now there was a meeting, a huge meeting to accommodate the pavilion reconstruction I think 120-130 people turned up but was there a parking problem? No and the reason for that was that people didn't understand the village so they walked there, the vast majority walked for a number of people cycling thank you okay, thank you, that's three minutes okay right, I just want to let you okay you can come in the debate I'll come in the debate but I'll just briefly because it's been used essentially as a village hall anyway for a variety of purposes this has never exhibited a parking problem and that's an important point to understand because what we're asking for I think it's just a continuation border what happens at the moment thank you very much and do we have councillor Susan van der Ven as the councillor with us oh sorry I'm very sorry three chair from councillors Heather Williams, Karn and Rhyford thank you chairman, I was concerned councillor Cackart wouldn't have his moment for a minute seems very strange of being this way I was just wondering because obviously parking is probably the key issue here whether you'd be in agreeance with myself that by its nature where it is that the actual residential properties the lines, Nutsford Road and Spring Lane the majority of those dwellings don't encourage really car ownership or very few people long to have car ownership so that I think if it was a different part of the village would you agree that it would be more of a concern with parking because you might have residential parking on the road on top with the exception of the highway high street would you agree that the nature of the dwellings nearby mean that parking is less of an issue very carefully when doing the parking survey that we set out a number of parameters one is that outside houses two is that anyway hazardous is it on a bend in the road is it obscured in some way and is it close to the building so we've got four or five tests being posed when looking at that parking provision there's one of them, you're quite right the fact that we did identify a number of areas where there is less residence parking in the high street than elsewhere so that does soften the problem considerably thank you councillor Cahn how long has the building been used for community uses in addition to that which we've been commissioned for in 1995 community well it's been used for some time Martin probably the library's been there what for 20 years I should think and the other uses I think have evolved over time and over the last 15-20 years I expect so there's been a variety in a spectrum of uses which has actually so why have you not gone for gone for planning permission rather than established use that's a good question that's really something for the officers we did a a pre-app a pre-application inquiry and we were advised at that stage that to be on the safe side we needed planning permission yes I agree an established use or a lawful use certificate could well have been an avenue to explore I think we just wanted to be secure to make sure we had it all in place just well whilst you're on the question of a temporary use the problem about that is parish want to get on with things they want the security of knowing that they have permission and knowing that they can actually do what is necessary in order to actually make this work for the village the problem about a temporary consent is that the whole thing is sort of in limbo you can't do any work you can't spend any money so I think the feeling in the village would prefer to have permanent permission rather than temporary permission but to thank you counciller actually it's called debate thank you thank you counciller do we have counciller van derbyn with us chair I understand that counciller van derbyn is still having computer problems so I believe Chris Carter as a backup statement he's very calmly reassuring us that he does thank you jane as I do so I'll read that out now if that's okay I'm delighted to be able to offer my unequivocal support for this planning application the prospect of a proper village hall is one of the most important opportunities to come to Bassingbourne in recent years the old school is a natural site and indeed the range and depth community activities already based there offers a platform of evidence to demonstrate that this site works very well as counciller for Bassingbourne I've taken advantage of the old school for regular drop-in advice surgeries where I often coincide with regular after-school library users also as a meeting point for the Camvale bus user group always well attended with no demand for car parking due to its central location accessible by all forms of active travel just outside I have also attended all manner of events and meetings there organised by the parish council and various village community groups all in all the current proposal builds on rich community experience the emphasis on walking, cycling and active and sustainable travel for accessing the proposed village hall complements aspirations locally and county-wide to reduce our carbon footprint and make active and sustainable travel our primary means of getting around Indeed, modal shift and encouragement of sustainable travel is one of the core tenets in the new county counciller's joint agreement it's encouraging to see projects like this under way I do hope that the planning community will be able to support this application Thank you Thank you very much for that Members will go into debate now Councillor Heather Williams' question Thank you Chairman I ought to add that I am aware of how long this has been going on and the various attempts that have been made for the village hall because I lived in the village from 97 to 2012 I think so I grew up there and I've seen how hard the village has worked and not to every option even taking out the pews from the church at one point with Ners so I think we have to look at the purpose of this village hall and what support it has and the fact that this is really for local residents this isn't putting a new facility in it's not putting something like when there was the sports centre for example which quite understandably that needed appropriate parking with it this is for to a certain extent just reassure and give the existing use has been there problematic free and I think time has come for Bassenborn to have a village hall given it's size and not to say that Littlington won't be obviously rivaling it but it's size means the surrounding area I really don't see parking being the issue that is feared in the objection but I don't even think it's feared in the objection I think it is simply a procedure calculation from the looks of it and if you know the area well you'll know there's plenty of area for those in the operating hours that it will be functioning so I think it's it would be a shame to not support this both from planning and community reasons thank you chairman can I if nobody else objects and I move to a vote yes I was just about to say the same because what I was thinking is what we have to look at very seriously obviously is if we get an objection by highways we have to take that seriously because we're often asking why there isn't an objection for highways and I think what we're seeing here is highways as I understand and point of principle is saying we need everybody applicants to use our methodology and if we use the methodology then we can give the proper evaluation we can see that a lot of work has gone in by the community to provide evidence and this is a regularisation of use so this is going against that procedure but there just seems to be so much common sense and support from everybody everybody that we've heard from but yes have I said something wrong last week yes would you like to because I was about to go to the vote for you before we moved to the vote although councillor Milne so I was asked to move to the vote he did leave the meeting for a minute so I'm afraid you're precluded from voting and I didn't even spot that but the chair said the same thing thank you so can I move there are no reasons for reviews that have been given on this one and the recommendation is that the planning commission be granted subject to appropriate planning conditions and the conditions are there on page 83 and I think we could take this by affirmation any objections abstentions and a no vote thank you very much thank you everybody for all the work to support that well done everybody it's now 120 so members I'd like to say we said we would have a short break for lunch if we got to this time we have got agenda item 8 which is in Histon and then we have a proposed diversion of a footpath followed by enforcement report and we don't have appeals because we just had a meeting two weeks ago for that one can we press on that's what you'd like how does everyone feel there's a proposal that we press on rather than having a half hour break anybody thank you chair I don't mind that but it might be wise to find that they've come for break for members I was thinking the same shall we say 10 minutes so it does mean you can take a breath of air if there's a cue at the toilet abiding by social distancing rules so we say 10 minutes that would be 130 Aaron is that okay? thank you very much everybody welcome back everybody we just had a short break to make sure we've got a bit of fresh air seeing as I'm in a room with no ventilation here so warm day as well so it was very good to just get out grab a bit of sugar as well so thank you very much so welcome back everybody this is South Cambridge district council planning committee we're now on agenda item 8 which is on page 85 of your agenda pack this is for application number 20 slash 05404 slash HFUL full application this is for 24 Manaw Park in Histon this is for a single story rear extension and part conversion of redundant garage to form utility room the applicants are Mr and Mrs Matthews key material considerations are the character and appearance of the area residential amenity and highway mutters it's not a departure from policy and the application is being brought before us members because the applicant is a contractor working for South Cambridge district council and a few of those today so they're coming before us they're coming before us full planning committee but to ensure transparency making sure there's no conflict of interest in final decisions and the presenting officer Charlotte Spencer Charlotte are you with us can you hear me okay yes can hear you we just show on the screen okay can you all see that okay so this is an application for 24 Manaw Park in Histon and as you just explained this is for a single story rear extension and part conversion of redundant garage to form utility room so the application relates to a two story semi detached dwelling house located to the west of Manaw Park just here the site lies within the development framework and there were no other relevant constraints on the sites it is attached to number 22 Manaw Park to the north and number 26 shares a side boundary with number 26 Manaw Park to the south to the way a small wooded area this is the existing situation at the property so they have a conservatory at the moment which would be demolished and the garage is located there to the web and that's the one that will be converted so these are the proposed drawings the extension would have a depth of 4.1 meters it will span the full width of the dwelling house it characterised by a dual pitched roof with a maximum height of 3.75 meters and the southern corner here would have joined the existing garage it should be converted to utility and store the alterations to the garage include the removal of the up and over garage door with a standard door and the addition of a window on the side so this is the property here when viewed from the street and this is the area or photograph this one here is number 24 you can see number 22 and 26 either side and the applicant has submitted kind of indicative drawings of what the extension would look like they have also submitted shadow drawings showing the impact of sunlight on any neighbouring properties the material considerations are the impact of the character and appearance of the area the impact on neighbouring communities and the impact on parking is cruel is that Dan? thank you very much Charlotte thank you and there are no representations from neighbours as we understand from the report and there was no update on that and parish council has recommended refusal but there is no parish council representation nobody has asked to speak today local member would you like to speak now during the debate? yep I am also local member and I would speak if necessary during the debate good members is there anything that you would like us to consider on this one you can see parish council's reasons for objecting it's council of millions chair thank you just a quickie could the officer just bring back the visualisation for us please we skipped through that slide quite quickly before I had a chance to thank you just bring that back up this one the next one is the lighting the one before that sorry it's all in the rear other than the garage to the front could you just go to the next slide for me again it's all green if you do an MF5 do you have a question no that's fine thank you I just want a better impression thank you members any comments with me as a local member the parish council is concerned about impact on amenity on page 88 we have the officers report where it's measuring the distances there is some so not on impact on number 26 on number 22 what they're saying is that they would have a marginal increased impact on sunlight but not one that would be seen to to meet merit refusal and that the ground floor side window would not result in a loss of privacy and so in the case officers report I don't see grounds for refusal myself in terms of local members the neighbouring properties that would actually be impacted have made any representations with your mic on property on the left hand side can I just ask is the aglass roof of the conservatory so the middle picture at the top and that one what's that yes a conservatory they also have a two story small two story rear extension can I just thinking that I'm a little surprised then that they haven't made some representation because they're going to have quite a change are we absolutely assured that they have been carded it's just confirmation that the consultation has gone out and that those dwellings neighbouring have received information yes it was received as I noticed was also installed outside the property good members should we go to a vote yes good yes so the there were no reasons for refusal being cited and so therefore the recommendation is that the planning committee grant planning permission subject to appropriate planning conditions and those are on page 89 can we take up affirmation agreed no refusals no abstention thank you very much and item nine which is the first diversion of part of Melbourne public footpath number six and stopping up of Melbourne public footpath number eight which is on page 91 of our agenda pack we had a couple of these sort of the diversions of these footpaths and who's presenting this one the presenting officers from the county council chair but just for your information why they're coming to committee the scheme of delegation doesn't currently allow officers to deal with these matters so they have to come to committee by default that's why it's here thank you so it's coming by default so this is I think James Stringer who's the asset information definitive map officer at county council yes and are you with us James I am yes can you hear me I can't I don't have the permission to share but not having to take anything to share it should be all in the pack but as you mentioned this is an application to divert a small section of Melbourne public footpath and stopping up another section to allow for the delivery of an approved astro test pitch at Melbourne village college the application is to be made under the town of country planning act under section 257 and as Chris just mentioned that they come to committee by default due to them not being in the current scheme of delegation so as the other one that came a couple months ago that came born that fairly straightforward in so far as the planning permission has been granted and the diversion of the public rights away are required to enable that approved development to be delivered it's currently across the school playing area and it's a very natural grass surface the new route will be of a similar grass surface and the county council has confirmed that it is content with that proposal there will be some additional way marking signage to ensure people skip the path as much as possible and don't stray into too much into the school grounds but the recommendation is that South Cambridge district council make an order to divert these public footpaths thank you James any questions thank you very much can we move by affirmation to approve this diversion of the public footpath and thank you very much for the representation affirmation thank you very much no refusals, no abstentions thank you very much James thank you Members we come to agenda item 10 which is the enforcement report on page 127 of the agenda pack and presenting this we should have will for this I hope yes hello can you see me chat will who has the will to live waiting until the end of our meetings trying to spread some joy at the end of your meeting can you hear me I can hear you, thank you Will do you want to provide any updates or any particular detail on the enforcement report yes chat I only have one verbal update to do with the crowded site on the horse heat lane in Linton negotiations for a scheme to discharge the outstanding conditions for foul and water drainage is still ongoing hopefully we are reaching a conclusion but from an enforcement perspective there's no breach at the moment on site that's it for the verbal update on a further note if there are any cases that members would like me to share at the next planning committee please contact me and let me know and I can have them straight on and also I'm looking to improve how much information that we share as a planning enforcement section so if there are any things that you would like me to share please come straight to me as well that's really welcome news and I think it would be really good for people to let you know ahead of the meeting and then you can make sure that that information is in the meeting that would be very very helpful Will and I think we do have a question Hello Williams at the last meeting I did ask for an issue to be added on in Arrington to the Whitehall farms you may have contacted me what you wouldn't know is my emails are I don't know the technical term so up the swani at the moment which basically means that if you've emailed me apologies I've not emailed you back because I can't so if you are able to give me a call that would be very much appreciated because I haven't got a phone number on here for you thank you Yes sir, because I did send you an email on the 28th not at the end of last committee but I will give you I might get it next week and thank you for following up so quickly Councillor Roberts Chairman thank you just a quick thought obviously it's not in my manner but the bear wash manner farm situation does seem to be going on quite a considerable amount of time and I remember when we first looked to refusing it after it being put up without permission one of the points that was very much made was the effect it was having on neighbours lives because the amount of noise etc and I'm thinking it seems to be there's still activity going on there we're into yet another hot summer where people want to have a little bit of quiet and calm especially at weekends I see it saying preparing a prosecution file how soon will that be likely to be actually happening please So the prosecution is being prepared by John Shufflewood who is the principal over at Cambridge City and he's had long standing matters with this case it's in process unfortunately I can't get a specific deadline for it to be done by however what I can state is that we will continue to monitor the site if the harm does continue and gets to a level we do have other enforcement options to consider such as potentially stop notice but I will update you as soon as possible councillor Thank you very much for that Due to flooding in the rear gardens of houses adjoining because the development have prevented the pre-existing drainage going across the field it was difficult to enforce because of what condition for the sustainable drainage dealt with the site itself rather than the impact on the adjoining properties have you considered how we might take account of preventing this sort of problem in future planning conditions for future applications Yeah so I think councillor when issues like these arise it does help us to steer towards policy I mean from our personal point of view on this case I have contacted the drainage officer and I'm waiting for a response and then I'm hoping to go to the developer to see if there is anything that we can do to mitigate the flooding but yes it is something tonight moving forward That's a thing Yes as councillor Olt mentioned the Burlshmell farm case has been coming back to us over and over again I think I'm just concerned that an appeal was allowed against our planning refusal our original enforcement notice was quashed so the reaction is to draft a fresh enforcement notice that was in 9 July 2020 There's a statement here that the harm is being caused by people sitting in the area I'm not quite sure whether we really need to be proceeding with this and whether we just can make fools of ourselves by carrying on when the appeal has been allowed I think that's it You want a response on that? I think you're following procedure at the moment we're like you Yes there's a technical breach of planning enforcement notice and the next step is to prosecute Thank you very much I think that councillor will talk about proportionality but I think you're in the middle of a whole procedural process Thank you very much and I think as we know appeals would come to the next planning committee meetings we just had a report on those in the last committee meeting which was just two weeks ago Members that's the end of the meeting Thank you very much at 1.50 Thank you very much everybody