The evidence-based chiropractor has a lot of things on it, right? There's like the research, there's some awesome products, there's even a student portal, but we'll get more into that. How do you describe the evidence-based chiropractor? Well, I think it's evolved as time has went on, but right now I'd say it's tools for chiropractors to grow their practice. So initially it was more strictly research-based, but as time went on I found that there was some things in my practice when I'd go to either use a product or purchase a product, it wasn't up to whether it was content or aesthetics, not up to what I liked. So that's when we started to kind of dive into a little bit more products, but I really don't want, I really like it to stay research-based and every product, in my opinion, at least is carefully chosen to make sure it still falls within kind of our brand standards. The design, the aesthetics that you mentioned and the branding is probably the thing that most captured my attention. Evidence-based is kind of a trigger word for me, I grab on to anything, although that's maybe going out of style, but when I got to the website and noticed that it's so well done, and I think you're using Squarespace, which I am to, which is probably the best service out there, but the things that you do produce, the research briefs, the iBook, what led you to make sure that that design was up to standard? That's a really good question. It's just personal preference, so I kind of come from more of a visual and art background as opposed to maybe, I mean they can coexist of course, but I think I'm into products and services that work well, that are fluid, that are elegant, that are modern, but not over-the-top modern, but still retain classic elements, all that fun stuff, so really I think the, and a lot of it was, when I first started out in practice, I'm handing out things that I just was like, this just looks like it was created 25 years ago, and it didn't make me feel good. It's the fifth photocopy. I appreciate that so much. Do you have a design background? Not formally, but it's something that I've always been really interested in, and I actually played music forever, so that kind of goes hand in hand, so it's always been, with every band that I've played in, I've been heavily involved in what's going to go on with, whether it's a show poster, whether it's the disc itself, whether it's press photos, whatever the case may be, I've been really into what I think looks good or what does not look good, so my skill set in terms of photoshop and things like that is average, minimal to average, but I have, I'll create drawings and I'll know what I want, so then I'll be able to kind of match with somebody who can actually execute it and kind of work from there, so. How much of this are you doing on your own, and how much do you have a paid designer or someone helping you out? I am the only employee of the Evidence Space Chiropractor, so I'm it, but I work for the website build out and the initial branding, all of the initial I did myself, about a year ago I transitioned to what it looks like currently, that I worked with a company out of St. Petersburg, Florida called Harbor, and since then I've found another person through them that now I'm working with, kind of just on an as needed basis, but it's really product by product basis, so with Harbor we created all the brand standards, so then that's the jumping point, so now my current designer, who knows all of them and works with them, is able to kind of just take that and run with it, and then we're able to kind of tweak and make things appropriate to whatever the specific product or service is, so. That's awesome, and you've got great photography, like I said, there's some kind of clinic artworks and posters that are meant for the, and that beautiful typography. Yeah, that's all them. As far as the photography goes, I've had two different photographers, they both live local and are both friends of mine, so that's been really cool, and they're just, again, that just works out because I like people that do those kind of jobs, so creative jobs, so when I knew I wanted a specific aesthetic, I kind of talked to each of them, they both worked on two different projects, two different sets of photography, so we were able to kind of just decide, and again, I kind of know what I want as far as depth and the coloration and things like that, but I can't execute any of it, so I was able to really give them a shot list of exactly what I wanted, the angles that I wanted, what I was looking for, and then they were able to kind of use their actual expertise and make it happen, so yeah, thanks. I think that's one thing that I pride myself on with the whole system is that I think it's just as far as not only content, I hope the content is as good as anything, if not better than anything available, but certainly I think the aesthetic, not to trump the content, but supports it in a way that's nice and makes me feel good, and ultimately it's all about stuff that I want to use to be honest with you, so when other docs grab onto it and like it, that's cool, that makes me feel good, of course. I think that's great, because the content is awesome, and I think most people have great content, but what I appreciate is your awareness of the importance of design, and that even though you might be on a budget, you need to make the effort to have good design, and I think a lot of us make that mistake and we default to Comic Sans or Papyrus, whatever, fonts are just kind of anathema in the design world, so I appreciate that and I hope that more chiropractors that are doing services like you begin to recognize the need for that, and I think I'm seeing it more and more. Yeah. Now are you still at the Florida Orthopedic Institute? Great question, another great question. I just started a new group this past week, so very timely question I should say. December 18th was my last day at Florida Orthopedic Institute. Now I've moved on to their regional spine group, and now I've moved on to I guess a nationwide spine group, so I'm happy to kind of dive into that whenever you want as far as what that means. I think that some of the questions upcoming were going to be about my practice. Yeah, I'm curious how much your practice experience being in a integrative or a mixed setting led to the development of the evidence-based chiropractor. Yeah, it is why, ultimately. So kind of the backstory is the evidence-based chiropractor didn't exist, it just was something that, of course it didn't exist at certain point in time, but when I kind of started it, it was not started as, this would be a cool thing to do. It was more in terms of I joined the Florida Orthopedic Institute and it was a matter of then going to spine conference and going grand rounds and kind of seeing how the medical doctors worked. So I didn't have a built-in referral base, so I didn't just start and all of a sudden, oh, wow, in an integrative setting, I'm flooded. So it was a challenge to figure out, well, how can I build those relationships with them? How does this work? What are they interested in? So I started noting that a lot of their clinical decision-making was based on research. So logically I said, well, what do you know? Let me take a look back at some of the things that I have. And I started to look at new research and I found, wow, there's way more than I thought here. This is good. So I started putting together really rudimentary research briefs at that point in time and started giving it to them and starting conversations and saying, hey, here's a little bit about what I do. And this was in spine journal. This was in European spine journal. This was in, I mean, I love JMPT. There's no problem with anything like that as well. But a lot of, if you want to say their journals, I started to pull our research from and gain referrals and kind of, I guess you could say, build relationships within my practice. So then naturally I said, wow, if the docs in my practice, like this, I wonder if the docs across the street like this. So then I started it local with family physicians and things like that. And it was totally niche just making them for myself. There's no quote unquote business or service. It was just as a matter of necessity to build my own practice. It started working out well with the local other local docs outside of my practice. And that's when I started to say, okay, well, I know one of my good friends that is 20 miles away. So I started saying, well, send me your logo. So then I created him at the time again, he's very rudimentary. But then I started saying, Hey, would you be interested in like using something like this? And he's like, Ah, this is, you know, this is fantastic. And I started looking out there and I really didn't see anything on the market in my opinion that suited that need for car reactors. And with the way I was able to kind of start stockpiling research, I was like, I could do this in a way that would be very advantageous for car reactors, very affordable, but also use the knowledge that I've already gained as far as kind of what works and what doesn't work and kind of refined what was going on. As far as the aesthetic of the research brief and the content to what I thought would work in the best way possible, which is still constantly refining with docs all around the globe to make sure that it is, you know, the best and most usable product. So your niche really is marketing two MDs using research about chiropractic. And your iBook is just that, marketing to medical doctors. And in the intro, which is the only part I've read, because I'm a student and found the $15, which really is reasonable, I will pay $15 for any e-book. And it sounds like it's kind of a four-step thing. You get kind of get the material together, make a list of doctors to market to make the meetings and execute them and then follow up. And your program, the evidence-based chiropractor material helps doctors do all of that. Yeah. The book kind of lays everything out like stepwise. So the book is kind of A to Z.  I kind of like what I'm doing. Then the book hopefully is a good resource for them to kind of execute A to Z using what we've learned. And of course, like I tell all the docs, none of it is gospel. It's always going to be evolving. It's always going to be changing.  So there's no magic, essentially, in it. It's just a matter of finding the most efficient and effective way to go about things. So the book kind of takes things A to Z. And then the materials that I think that we offer, specifically the research briefs, are the support behind that. And then of course, any member also has access to the, what we call the member's vault, which has a bunch of templates and guides. So for instance, in the book, it kind of talks about case notes. Some docs don't know where to start. So any member doc has access to templates or things that we found work best as far as that, as far as that's concerned. And then of course, any member doc also has access to the book and all that jazz. But really, the book can also be a standalone piece where docs are saying, hey, I don't know really where to start, or maybe I am doing something good. I just want to do it better than the book I think is a good resource as far as that goes to just help them solidify their vision. That's excellent. So looking on the website, there's a lot of material. There's a good amount of free tools. You have one section, specifically with free tools, which are some great PDFs to download. But there's a student portal, a student program as well. What can students get out of this? Any student that becomes part of the student program, it's completely free. And basically what the students get is one thing that we haven't implemented yet, but is to happen in 2015 is a kind of a monthly call. So it's just getting on and saying, hey, what's going on? And my vision for it is that some of the challenge has just been time zone issues. So that seems to be the big challenge because the students are really spread out around the globe. And I really wanted to have, I really would like it to be a unified time where everybody can kind of mastermind together and say, hey, what's going on over there? Hey, what's going on over here? Maybe preset a few questions that, at least I can probably provide some insight on, maybe have other docs come on and guest spot, basically just help students out and answer questions from a kind of a real-world practicing perspective, which I think is important. But what is actually going on right now in the student portal is each month, the exact research brief that we white label and send out to all of our member docs, we put just branded as the evidence-based chiropractor in the student portal. So any student is able to download that, the same thing that my docs are getting every month to hand out to medical doctors, the students can access them and kind of get a feel for not only what we do, that's kind of secondary, but first they can kind of see what the, if they're not able to keep up on the research due to being so busy in school and trying to get through, they can kind of see what's out there and how it relates to practice because all the research briefs are not only a statement of what the research is, but also there's sort of positioning as far as what it means in practice. I appreciate these briefs because they're, they're not simplistic, but they really make it easier for a student to understand what's going on in the research. And there's, I think all of them or most of them are a single pdf, a single page pdf, and provide really the key material and that's important I think because I mean even I being at a evidence-based school and one of only a few who actively go out and like read research and, but it's such a time commitment and it's, my goal this past quarter was to read one paper per week, just one per week. That's good. And I wasn't able to do it every week, but I, you know, you come across papers all the time. So this makes it, you know, just makes it really accessible and it makes it achievable for a student to keep on top of the research. He recently came out with the top 10 chiropractic research papers. Give us maybe the top three. Yeah, strictly opinion, by the way. But yeah, I think, and you really hit a, I'm going to touch on one point before I do that. And that's the single page nature of it. And for any students, I think that's important. Earlier, I alluded to the fact of their, I made rudimentary briefs before. Those briefs were multiple pages. They had tons of content. I was diving in and doing all that and there was multiple pages. Each one was probably five or six pages long. And what I found and what we ended up finding was, doctors don't have the time, like they don't have time to read that. So just get them the brass tacks of it and, you know, strip, cut the fat, essentially, make sure that it's pointed, make sure that it's relevant, make sure that they have the information that's necessary for them to make it actionable in their practice. So, yeah. And that's where we kind of settled on the single page. Now, as time goes on in the next 10 or 15 years, if it becomes strictly a digital product, there might be some more play with that. But I think as a hard copy physical item, the single page is really where it's at. So that's important. As far as reading research, not only as a student, but as a future chiropractor, many present chiropractors in the same boat. So I spoke multiple times at some chiropractic continuing education conferences and seminars this past year. And I'd go over maybe 10 to 15 research briefs or research pieces. And I'd always ask, especially for the big ones in my mind, I'd say, has anybody ever heard of this? 200 docs in the room, five hands go up. And that's what they've heard of. Never mind read. I didn't say, hey, did you actually read it? So I think that there's a big divide, I think, as far as that's concerned. And I think like I'll say in the seminars always is, to me, find what resonates with you. If it's, let's say, more subluxation based, Matthew McCoy is a great docker. They're producing at the best research that he can. Then on the more musculoskeletal side, of course, you can look to JMPT as far as crossing over. And sometimes they have chiropractic or manual therapy mixed with modalities as more spiny European spine journals. There's a plethora of resources available regardless of whether you're family practice doc, regardless of what sports practice. So just find what I always encourage everybody is, find what you're into and then go for it. It doesn't necessarily have to be the research that I think is important. It's really about what you think is important. So then you're able to then resonate and bring that to the people that you resonate with in your town and your community and build those relationships regardless of who they're with. Now rather than go through your top 10 because it's free, students can access this and they can download it. I think I'd be more interested in hearing what your process is. How can students, other than getting your briefs, what are some tools or ways that they can be more active in reading research without spending all of their free time? Two best ways by far is PubMed. Most students are familiar with PubMed, P-U-B-M-E-D. I don't know the correct word, repository of research information for journals worldwide. And what you're able to do for free is set up an account and then do a keyword alert. So the keyword could be chiropractic, it could be spinal and epioptherapy, it could be adjustment, whatever you want it to be, and it could be multiple. So and then they'll email you at whatever duration of time you indicate. So whenever something new is posted with those keywords once a week, once every two weeks, once a month, so that is invaluable because it's going to pick up pretty much any registered journal in the world and automatically deliver those headlines and titles of the research articles into your inbox at whatever time you dictate. So I mean you can't really get much more straightforward than that. That's the best, and you can kind of do the same thing with a Google, like a Google News alert or anything like that. So within Google, whether it's with sort of an aggregator or whether it's just within a general Google search, you can kind of highlight and have them alert you. But PubMed search is probably the best because it's going to grab the research articles, whereas a Google News feed alert is going to be more based upon news which can be not research-based but sensational, but both are probably good because you get a good idea of what's actually going on. Yeah, the Google News is interesting to see what other people are hearing about, but you still have to do, well, I find that they almost never give you a link to the paper. So you end up having to go to PubMed anyway to find the actual paper.  Everything as far as my looking for the articles is digital. So I do PubMed searches, and then the journals that I subscribe to and or have access to through my practices, I look up what I want. My process for it is whenever I see something that I like, then of course I'll download it, and that's of course a digital copy. I'll file it according to where it resides. So whether it's a cervical paper, a safety paper, a cost-effectiveness paper, a lumbar paper, I'll kind of file it away in accordance with the body region or type of journal article. And then what I'll do is previous to making a research brief, I just like then I'll print it. So then I'll queue them in accordance with what I want to do over the course of the next few months as far as research briefs. But I'll always leave play if something comes up and it's just a fantastic article that's released this month, that'll go to the head of the line. But I probably have a few hundred articles kind of stashed away at this point in time that I feel like are great articles that are relevant. So I'll print them out before I do the research brief because I just like to hold it. And then I'll do my circling all of my notations and things like that while I have a physical copy that was been printed. And then I'll go back and create my research brief from my notes on that copy. So it's kind of a combination, I guess it's kind of a combination of both. I've never really thought about it before. That's actually my process. That's cool to hear. I could geek out for another hour about research stuff, but I want to learn a little more about you as a doctor. How long have you been practicing? I graduated in 2006, so nine years now. And what led you to decide to go into chiropractic? Well, ultimately, it comes down to my dad had a back injury. So I was at an undergraduate school. My father heard his back. He went to see a chiropractor. He improved and got well. And he said, you got to meet this guy when you come back at Christmas break. So I went back home. I met the chiropractor. He was super high energy, super charismatic guy and was like, what are you going to do? And I was like, I'm into health care. I think I want to do orthopedics, but I'm kind of not sure. But that had been what I'd been interested in since I was probably 12. I did endoscopic knee surgical paper when I was 12 years old. That's our school projects. So he kind of told me a little bit about what he did as a chiropractor. And it kind of resonated with my thoughts and beliefs without knowing, without really knowing that much about it before.  He's like the alumni guy for Polymer. So he calls up Polymer and says, I have some money on the phone that I think they'll want to speak to you. Put me on the spot there a little bit. So they sent me information and it kind of went from there. But then come to find out later on down the road. I hadn't put two and two together. But then I found out that my great grandfather also had been a chiropractor in the 20s and studied under BJ and all that fun stuff. So all of those things kind of tailored into each other. How do you see chiropractic? How is it different than 20 years ago? I can speak to nine years. Is that when your dad first went to chiropractic? Well, that was probably now. I was probably 18. Maybe the first time I was exposed to chiropractic was 15 years. That was probably 15 years ago. I'm 34 now. That was when I was about 18. So it's difficult to say the vibe of it at the time because it seems very similar to he practices in a way that's very similar to how many family chiropractic offices operate today from what I know. So just from being as far as the patient side of things go or the observer side of things.  But I think that as time has gone on specifically since I've gotten out of school, maybe nine years ago, which really got me to see the full spectrum of what's going on. In my opinion, I think that the lines of kind of interdisciplinary communication and relationship building are more wide open than they ever have been before, even compared to just nine years ago. And much of that has to do with the breath and depth of research that has been published in that time. So even if a lot of docs, it's kind of the old exposure, first people ridicule and hate and they accept and all this kind of stuff. I think it's sort of the same thing. I mean, even the most ardent American Medical Association supporting doctor of the 60s and 70s when chiropractic was in the big fight has now just in their own journals hammered over the head with what I would consider to be pro-chiropractic research so that even the most ardent has tended to say, well, there might be something there. In the bare minimum, which then opens the door for further communication. I would agree that the interdisciplinary approach is more prevalent than ever, but I also hear as I'm listening to podcasts and following outspoken chiropractors online, even more than more than 10 years ago is this this campaigning to identify ourselves as not being in the medical model as being completely different. Where do you see chiropractic going in the next 10 years? That's a tough question. I'm not sure is the honest answer.  So he's about as far outside of the medical model as you can possibly get. I mean, he was so far outside of it that even at the time where chiropractic was in the 70s, he said, that's too medical. I'm starting spinaulogy. So I mean, he is as radical as you can get. And he has the the famous quote that he would always say no chiropractor ever anywhere has ever diagnosed or treated a disease. Right. Nope. That's not what we do as chiropractors is his claim is that we we just adjust no matter what's going on with the patient. We just adjust correct, which has which does not fit in an integrative model in my opinion. Yeah, not at all. Not at all.  Of course, considering where I'm at right now and who knows what he would think of it. Fortunately, I was able to meet him and get actually get adjusted by him when he was still with us. So, you know, that was that was absolutely fantastic and hear him speak for a two day event off campus at Palmer. So that was that was really, you know, something I'll always hold dear. But, you know, as far as where chiropractic can go in the future, you know, it's difficult for me to say, you know, my personal beliefs are that I am not for the prescription of drugs or any integration for drugs or surgery into chiropractic. That's my personal opinion. So I believe that we can operate in a unique and distinct fashion by highlighting the chiropractic adjustment and provide valuable service that way while also working with other docs. So an example of this would be I have a couple really good examples. But, you know, just as a medical doctor or a podi any sort of medical doctor, podiatrists, they're not going to be able to take care of everything. So they, of course, they refer and work with other physicians. And I certainly see chiropractic, you know, physicians or doctors chiropractic within that circle. But I don't think that that necessarily means that we need to do anything that anybody else does. I think that we can remain separate and distinct by highlighting what we do the best and what we have the most training for without, for lack of a better term, diluting what that is, which in my opinion is the chiropractic adjustment. There's many professions that can do modalities. I don't know. I don't really do many modalities. Personally, I'm kind of going off on a tangent right now. But, you know, myself, if I were to do e-stem on somebody, it would be very difficult for me to say that I can do e-stem better than a physical therapist or anybody else. You kind of just place the pads there. And, you know, you may have a trick of the trade or two, but it's sort of straightforward. Whereas in my opinion, still the chiropractic adjustment or spinal manipulation, whatever you want to dictate it, still has an art component to it. So therefore, I want, just as I want the surge, if I had to have surgery, thankfully, knock on what I've never had to, and hopefully I never will, but I would want the surgeon with the most experience in his craft. If I need an adjustment or I want an adjustment, I want the person with the most experience in their craft. This is where I get, it's difficult for me to buy into other professions creeping onto what we're doing, because the bottom line is if they're learning it in a weekend, that should, to say it doesn't hold a candle to what we're able to do would be an understatement, as far as I'm concerned. So, now as far as where that goes in the future, I think it is difficult to say, because certainly there are a vast array of opinions and chiropractic from the objective straight chiropractors all the way to the full on, let's do drugs and surgery chiropractors. It's difficult to say, in my opinion also, without having a unifying body, that makes things very difficult. So it's difficult politically to get things done without a unifying body, because the dollars just aren't behind what we're able to accomplish as far as lobbying is concerned, which is a whole another ballgame. The answer is I don't know. I certainly hope that we don't include drugs and surgery, but I certainly think there is a place for us at a table with other doctors without being completely isolated. I want to put you on the spot a bit, but I think you're up for the challenge. I want to bring together the marketing, the MDs, the research, and the defined role of chiropractic in the medical model. I interviewed a medical doctor, Dr. Mark Chrislip, who's the host of the quack cast, and is very outspoken against all alternative medicines, including chiropractic. And I asked him, had he ever been to a chiropractor? No. Would he ever know? But he had a cervical disc herniation a while back, and we kind of came to the agreement. I didn't know the research well enough at the time that he would have gone if there was evidence that chiropractic would have been beneficial for that condition. How would you approach him as a chiropractor and present research that might help him in that decision? As a physician or as an independent patient? If you were a patient. Well, let's say as an MD, because that's what we're talking about here, is marketing to MDs. Yeah. One of the papers that comes immediately to mind off the top of my head, and I'm not going to be able to cite the source of the paper, unfortunately, but there is a really good study as far as specifically with the cervical disc herniation with radiculopathy. There is a paper that shows cox technique, essentially flexion distraction technique in the cervical spine, reducing intradiscal pressure. So again, that's not going to be a traditional high velocity diversified adjustment, but with that sort of flexion distraction capability on a cox table, they were found that there were pressure decreases intradiscually. So if there was a disc herniation causing pressure on a nerve root, theoretically that is by far the best treatment option, because it's the only way you could get potential nonsurgical decompression. So it is a very specific case, of course. But I think as far as taking one step back from that, specifically that study, I think one of the big things to emphasize always in my opinion is that chiropractors, many MDs confuse the profession of chiropractic with the practice chiropractic. So they believe chiropractic equals crunch. So they see somebody who can't move their neck, has ridiculous pain, whether it's lumbar cervical or whatever, and they can't imagine a high velocity adjustment doing anything because they're like, this person can barely move as it is. And they just don't know because they don't have the experience with it. While we may choose to do that technique, because it may be what we find to be the best technique for the patient, I think it's important to always let medical doctors know. And most chiropractors now would say 90 plus have at least one low velocity technique, whether it's activator or flexion distraction, and at least one high velocity technique, whether that's gonestead or general diverse by classification. So I always think it's important to let the physicians know, hey, we have an array of techniques available from low velocity, low impact to the more traditional or high velocity techniques. So we're always going to evaluate the patient, examine the patient, correlate that with what we find in diagnostics and make the best decision possible in the most comfortable position possible for the patient. So I think it's important to highlight those because many times, again, I would say, if I were to ask that doc what he thought chiropractors did, I guarantee you he would say that if I were a chiropractor, he's going to crunch my neck and hurt me. And the bottom line is whilst the chiropractor may choose to do a gonestead adjustment or diversified adjustment, the chiropractor also may have chosen to do a decompressive technique, which may have changed this guy's world. So that would be where I'd start. And would you provide a research brief in a case like that? Yeah.  But certainly, if I'm ever talking with a doc, I've had docs say, one time I was presenting at a grand rounds at a hospital, and I think I I'm not going to be able to remember the specifics of it. But the bottom line, the doc was saying, like, Oh, well, flexion distraction compared to traditional traction in the lumbar spine. What's the difference? Like, is one better than the other? I'm comfortable just doing what I'm doing now. So I said, Oh, and I didn't have something prepared. Obviously, it was just a question off the top of his head. So I said, let me take a look at it, and I'll find something. And I found something that had some differences between the two. And flexion distraction does work, in my opinion, superior to prone flexion distraction technique gets more decompression than a supine axial distraction. It's just it's more highly targeted. You're obviously working within your palm, and you're able to focus energy, of course, dissipation, but you're able to get more decompression doing it that way. And in my opinion, also, you're able to get the human element, which is important, as far as not only Hey, I'm touching the patient like some sort of magic placebo. But I mean, in terms of actually feeling out the segment, as opposed to just pressing a number on a machine where all of a sudden it goes, and who knows what the patient's feeling at any given time. So you're able to get real world feedback as far as what's going on with the patient. So again, sorry, going off on a tangent a little bit there. But I think, you know, it's always good to say, if you do not have a handy say, let me take a look and I'll get back to you. We're winding down running out of time. For those students who are prospective students thinking of chiropractic, a couple questions. How would you explain to them the importance of being staying up today, being aware of the research on chiropractic today? I think it's the most imperative thing that any student or perspective student or doc can do. Again, because in my opinion, regardless of whether your family practice, subluxation based, muscular skeletal based, extremity based, sports based, you name it, there is research or a supporting organization that is attempting to produce research. The quality of will wildly vary, of course. But it is of the utmost importance, regardless of practice style, to find a company service or do it yourself. Find the research that resonates with your proposed practice style. Get knowledgeable about it because it's going to help you build those relationships, whether it's with a midwife or doula, whether it's with an MD, whether it's with sports hero, surgeon James Andrews. It doesn't matter. They're going to want to ask you questions. And the more knowledge that you have, the better you'll be able to answer those questions, which inevitably serves the patient better. If you were to do it all over again, let's back up before your dad hurt his back. But you know what you know now. What school would you choose? What school would you recommend to students? Wow, that's a tough one. My honest answer would probably be life because I went to Palmer in part because Palmer, Florida was Guy Rieckman's baby. So that was when he was chancellor of Palmer is when I started the idea. Did you go to Palmer or Palmer, Florida? I went to Palmer, Florida. Okay. But I should clarify. I went to Palmer Davenport and I took two classes that I needed to start at Scott Community College, which is right next door. My intention was to start at Palmer, Iowa. However, while I was taking those classes, I learned that Palmer, Florida would be opening. And I previously went to University of Tampa. I loved Florida. So I made the decision to go back down here to Palmer, Florida. And I was one of the first graduating classes from Palmer, Florida. And they had a very interesting approach with everything being, well, not everything, but a lot more focused on digital as well as a different approach to systems of the body. Absolutely. And that sort of went in line with what Dr. Rieckman was trying to do at the time. So he would, you know, Palmer, Iowa has been there a long time. I was saying it's been there over 100 years. And it's difficult to get change. And certainly you don't want to, you know, you want to make sure that you're doing these the best way possible regardless of location. But Palmer, Florida, I feel I felt like he felt, and he might speak otherwise on this, but that it was an opportunity to try some new things and be able to get, you know, an updated approach to chiropractic schooling. Unfortunately, as probably everybody knows, you know, within two semesters of me going there, that was the riff that happened. And he ended up at life. So that's where I would, you know, I would probably lead somebody because I think that he's a great leader. And I think that he, what I see from life as far as getting back to the origins of our conversation, as far as aesthetics and communication and things like that, I feel like it's top notch. I haven't been to school there. So it's very difficult for me to say as far as the education, I know they went through some accreditation issues probably eight years ago. Now it's been a while. But I like what they're doing up there. And I like his approach.  So. And if any listeners are interested in learning more about life, I did interview a student there last year, and I'm checking right now. I think it's episode seven or so. So I did interview a student who has recently graduated from life. And it is a gorgeous campus, huge, probably, I think probably the largest school Palmer might be close, but definitely wanted to look at. Well, where can, where can students and doctors learn more about you and follow you? Sure. www.theevidencebasedchiropractor.com. So very simple, very straightforward. And then pretty much any social media backslash the evidence-based chiropractor. So whether it's Twitter or whether it's Facebook, a lot of it's, you know, this, you know, the content is the content, so you can go to any location. But, you know, certainly, you know, we post on Facebook daily, you know, things that hopefully their chiropractors can pass on to their, you know, patients or be used as far as that's concerned. And then also, you know, probably about five days a week, even though the holidays I got, I got, I got a little behind as far as putting out articles and blogs on our website, which is kind of research and marketing based at www.theevidencebasedchiropractor.com. So either location or if they have any questions, concerns, comments, anything like that, I'm always free to chat at www.theevidencebasedchiropractor.com. And I recommend all students follow them online. Also, go to the evidence-based chiropractor and sign up for the student program. Because as students, it's difficult to afford these excellent research briefs, but there's a lot of information there that is really useful. And I find myself going there every once in a while and checking it out. Thank you. Dr. Langman, thanks so much. Hey, my pleasure. Thank you for having me.


Okay so hello everybody, my name is Marek Lovar and together with my colleague Dushan Srivaka we will tell you something about symmetric mode processing in Android. So first of all let me tell you something about myself and my colleague. So I am the author and maker of our message library which we will learn about later in the presentation. And my colleague Dushan is the author and maker of the RPC library which we will also learn about. We are both very enthusiastic and we are working at an exhibition on the factors. So during our presentation we will introduce you with as much mode processing as we understand it. With real machine messaging in Windows kernel, then with RPC message light which is an implementation for optimized for real time creating systems for small devices. And we will end with embedded remote procedure call library which is therefore making it easy to use AMB in your system. So first of all, motivation. Why do you use AMB when there is SMB? So thanks to AMB your system can be faster of course because there are multiple cores, can consume less power, can be safer and can be more secure. Now I will explain how this can be. So all of this is due to the fact that not all CPUs in the system are treated equally. The cores run independently on each other completely. They are not under the same operating system. They can have different operating systems. They can have different architecture. It can be a dedicated ESP for the data computation. And as they are completely separate it can be used in AMB. AMB can be also used in most criticality systems which means that on one core you can run Linux which is not certifiable for automatic applications, not yet. And on the other core, on the so-called AMB core you can run an ARCOS which will take care of critical tasks in the system. So in order to make the system work you need the two parts of the system to communicate somehow for this. There is a shared memory and two inter-core interrupts. One core is so-called master and most of the time it takes care of life cycle of the other core which means that it enables the core enables its clocks, power and the core starts booting. In some scenarios it also is able to change the firmware of the secondary core but it depends where is the secondary core booting from whether it is from VR or external, what is VR flag or something else. So this is the concept. Another important thing is that in this system or maybe this is getting a little bit specific for the protocol which is used, VRB message, but generally master is managing the shared memory. So it is a master's role to enable clocks for this shared memory to initialize any data structures which are later used for the inter-core communication. So finally, RPMSG. So RPMSG or remote customer messaging is a very thin layer on top of a transport layer and it actually defines just a utility like header which contains a source address which is an address of an endpoint on the sender side, on the side of the sender. Destination endpoint which is like a UDP port, again, but this time on the side of the other core and the other space of source and destination is always vocal to the core. This can be done like this thanks to the fact that RPMSG is point to point protocol. So always between one pair of CPUs there is one instance of RPMSG. Then there is a reserve field which we will not talk about now and then here is the length and the actual payload. And like this, this is one buffer transfer during communication. So in the beginning RPMSG used to have only one transport layer which was and still is based on Vertail. This is the most generic implementation which is currently used by the majority of vendors which are supporting RPMSG on their platforms. And initially support or maintainer was... These days the maintenance was done by Bern Anderson from Linaro and he did a lot of work between all the patches. One important thing I can see there is he split the core implementation of RPMSG from the transport layer so that it is possible to have different transport layers. So not only Vertail can be used but any custom way to transfer the data can be used. Currently there is Geolink and SMB which are ring buffer based implementations for multi-processor authentication. This is unfortunately by implementation mainly for platform platforms. So we are getting to the state of RPMSG in Linux kernel. So in Linux kernel there is another thing which is called RPMSG pass which is a virtual pass to which the RPMSG devices are registered. So either it is a virtual RPMSG device which is in... If you check the sources of Linux it's in driver RPMSG, virtual RPMSG pass.c Or it can be Geolink which is in the same directory. The name is different. Or SMB which again is in the same directory but there is this prefix like you can call. Once a device is registered, thanks to the probing mechanism presented in Linux kernel, it gets probed with one of the RPMSG drivers. There are several of them. One of them is called RPMSG car which is quite recent and it exports actually the RPMSG device or its endpoints. That refers to the UDP like header I showed you before. There was this source of destination address. So one address is exported to user space using a correct device. And it appears in slash there slash RPMSG. And then you can write your own pipeline script which accesses this device and it will actually send the data through shared memory to the secondary port. This is one thing, one way how you can leverage AMP. Another way is to leverage it internally in kernel. So Qualcomm has this SMDRBM, resource and power manager which actually takes care of power management in the system and in the host side, in the kernel, there is just an API and the actual work when setting the state or when changing code frequencies etc is done by the secondary core and those commands are communicated through RPMSG to the other side. And last but not least there is also another RPMSG driver called Video4Linux and this one is used by, well as you can see by Video4Linux framework and what it does, it sends not-decoded frames or pictures to the other core then the secondary core takes care of the decoding and the raw data are then sent back to the kernel and it's going to be used by the kernel. So the discrete plus and minus form computation is not done here but it's done on the other side. So we have actually, here is the floating and this can be regarded as power management which is a kind of critical part of the system. So it is, again, floating to the other core but it can be regarded as, makes a criticality kind of way how to leverage RPMSG. So this is currently an upstream current. If I zoom a little bit, here we have the RPMSG pass so I take this branch and under the RPMSG pass and the virtual art message there is the virtual trial pass which is, again, a virtual pass to which the virtual device is registered by a module called RemotePro and this module takes care of loading the firmware for the secondary core and once the firmware is loaded it parses a portion of the firmware and in this portion there is a thing called resource table in which there are entries for virtual devices. Once it finds this entry it registers a device and then gets roped with the virtual RPMSG, this virtual driver provided by the virtual RPMSG pass.c module and then this gets roped up and the rest of the story. So another way to create a virtual device is to use a custom platform driver which is not the most beautiful way to do things but there is a problem and because of the problem this is the reason why it can be also done like this. The problem is if you want your cores to start completely independently which means you don't want your Linux to start your secondary core but you want an early boot by the secondary core for example you enable some device and you need a very fast response which can be achieved by Linux but you would need to tweak the kernel to make the cutout time as small as possible there is a lot of effort done in this way also but if you want to take another way of achieving this you can leverage the mp core and let it boot very fast take care of the critical parts of the system and then you boot Linux kernel and kernel start slowly and the mp core is already taking care of everything and during the Linux kernel start up this custom platform driver registers directly the already existing virtual device which is already up so it is not taking from the firmware file and the firmware file is actually not managed by the kernel in this case so this is another use case and now we get to the point where I will try to explain a little bit how virtual works and with regard to rp message so virtual is quite complicated but I will explain how it works and how we use it with rp message is anybody here familiar with virtual? just hands up so for me to know ok so 27.5% so it's simple virtual contains a thing called third queue and each data structure and each word queue is composed of two ring buffers and the magic here is that each of the ring buffers is single reader, single writer ring buffer so in the beginning this ring buffer let's say it's full of three buffers and another thing I would like to point out is that those ring buffers are actually used only to store pointer to the actual container of the data so there is a pool of buffers and then there are those two ring buffers containing just addresses, just pointers to those members of the pool of the pool buffer pool so on one side it wants to send a message it reads four bytes of this ring buffer to make it simple which we can call allocation then the payload of course the rp message header is written into the buffer and after that the actual payload is written into the buffer and then the address of this buffer is written into the unveil ring buffer the reception side reads those four bytes or reads out of the ring buffer and it gets to know the address of the buffer which was sent but actually just the pointer was passed to the other side and then it can do whatever is needed with this buffer and once the other side is done with that it writes back the pointer to the unused ring buffer you can call this the allocation of ring this is quite an interesting way of communication because you don't need any inter or walking during the communication and it's efficient because it's not just a ring buffer because ring buffers in this case it would not be efficient to use a ring buffer because you would need to do a copy into the ring buffer in order to send the data and then you would need to read out the data by byte by byte if you would not want any walking so this way it's very efficient and that's why Gradio is actually used for this multi-core communication and one important thing it allows for zero-copy actually I will show the procedure here there is an interrupt but this is not mandatory it can also work without the interrupt if the other core just pulls which might look like a bad approach because well it will consume a lot of power but with some architectures it can be the way to go for example there are those programmable real-time units from TI if you know about it and the usage of interrupts is limited there so again I will just go through the process so let's say Linux would like to send something to the remote core so it reads out of the use ring buffer it writes the header and the payload then the data gets enqueued into the FAA ring buffer which is another ring buffer this is shown by a different color and then an interrupt is triggered and the other core is notified it reads the address from the available ring buffer and it passes it to some callback in the interrupt context and then there might be some ARPOS queue where your friends point you to the buffer and then it can be consumed in some ARPOS task context interesting thing is that the buffers can be freed later out of order and this also would be complicated well with a simple ring buffer it wouldn't be possible to even do a zero coping here it is possible to do zero coping and the allocate or free the buffer once they are processed out of order right there and when the free happens again there is a trigger an interrupt to the other side so that the other side knows that for example if this pool is depleted Master could wait for an interrupt and once a buffer is freed an interrupt would be triggered and it could unclip and continue so this is a simple process when the communication is going from the other side it is completely the same just another if you compare pictures just the color change and then the sense of arrows it is done in the same way just another pair of ring buffers is used so in total there are four ring buffers in the system that is important now for our message lines so as I said it is a very small library which is constituted by those files you see there are some headers but those are not very important so there is this art message lines art message queue and art message name service art message lines provides send API API for creation of new endpoint registration of new endpoint etc art message queue which is not mandatory can be disabled or it is not mandatory to use it provides blocking receive which might be useful if you use an art post if you don't use art post you can just use an interrupt call that's it but you don't see there is where the magic actually happens it's a very lightweight implementation of vertical protocol as I described it then there are those two layers one layer for portation to the ARCOS basically there is just a very thin abstraction on top of the mutex it's a more foreign view, very thin and then there is this platform layer which is used for portation to different platforms so there are interrupts platform dependent things but interrupts nippling, nippling etc and this name service I forgot about this is used for announcement of services to the other side because when the system boots up the mutex doesn't know or may not know what firmware is loaded in the AMP core so the AMP core may send a message to a fixed endpoint address and at that endpoint address Linux is looking for a packet which is formatted in a certain way where name, the compatible string is sent there and the address of the newly created endpoint on the AMP site so that dynamically drivers in Linux kernel can probe like a new ARCOS device can be dynamically created in this way so the AMP core actually announces its capabilities but this approach is not mandatory again it can be done in any other way so as I said it's there are two protection layers it's quite simple and it's PSD licensed so you can go and use it there is a free ARCOS port, a bare metal port and Zephyr port is in progress and if you'd like to look at the code it's hosted at GitHub under an extra micro-slash of MSI and now let me pass the ground to my colleague Lushan who will present to you who will tell you something about a very remote procedure call I will... address? yeah, you mean here with the name service well Linux needs to know to what address send or with whom to communicate because one thing is he would send some packet but when he doesn't know that the firmware for example provides some this quick-to-sign-transformation service he would not know where to send messages or what is the purpose of the firmware actually so either something is... there is some entry in the device street or it can be done this way dynamically there is no broadcast, no yes, yes it's like UDP, there are no connections there are some UDP and... yes sorry yes, yes, on both sides it's like UDP it's fire and forget just send a packet and you don't know what happens but well, it is in the same SOC so likely it will not be dropped or anything but it depends on the implementation what happens in the hardware system so let me pass the mic to Dushan thank you do you know something about RPC? it's a... commonly it's known so I will start just quickly what RPC is why we are developing the RPC and how to use already RPC so what is RPC? RPC is a mechanism to involve software routine on the remote system as a simple local function remote system can be any CTO connected through communication channel like servers across network under CTO multiple system for users it looks like calling local function from library built into application RPC is a type of clean-signer request-response type of communication here I have an example so application on the clean side will bring a function data are passed to stack code which can be written or generated and here are data serialized put to transport and send to server side server will deserialize code in server stack code serialize data and call appropriate function with this data if there is expected any written values these are again serialized send to clean deserialized and written to application here is RPC count so why we are developing the RPC when there exist RPC solutions already you could see some presentations already here so many of these RPC modern solutions are based for high performance distributed systems commonly created over the network we are focusing on practically couple systems using C program like we each with small code size for multi processor we are supporting SPI transfer who are transferred to some others for multi-core we are supporting RPC less each which was presently by Marek or Emu which is using registers to communicate between so what are main requirements as I said it's small code size RPC library has less than 5K main program language so we are supporting C mainly to call RPC calls we can use C++ or Python in future there can be others we are not forcing users to use particular API style stop code is generated it can be run on bare metal linux or free rcos we are considering 14 to 15 years it's modular and simple and it's open source so how to use ERPC in applications I can explain on the example let's say we have to output device on one core we have linux which is using for what you want server or play media application and you have regular transceiver and you want to use it for quickly communication through it so you can have another core which will communicate through this radio transceiver and you want to communicate between this linux core and this second core so you can use ERPC and wonder what you need to do as I said stop code is generated so first you need to define your interface and you need to define it in an ideal file which is using interface definition language which we designed to be similar to C but as you see you need to provide some more information to let us know how the data should be serialized because it's not always obvious from function declaration here is the ideal definition and here is generated code this is just a header file there is of course more code but this is what a real user needs to call in his application so you can compare it that it's can't see more so when you have this ideal file generate your stop code then it's everything you need to that you need to create your application so what you need to do then in your application on plain side you need to initialize the RPC and then you need to call your RPC functions and then just initialize in the end you also need to initialize RPC and then register services one service is one defined interface and then you need to run RPC server you can use run function or pull function it depends if you want to call handle just one RPC call and then use your another code so you can use the thread for execution some other user code or you want to just handle RPC calls and then you are done just initialize RPC so this is everything for me if you have any question for me or Marik you can ask here we have our repositories for projects if you have any questions you can send us email you can contribute you will be interested in these projects thank you for your attention so if you put a pointer to data data will be this way not a pointer to other side there will be a copy down but as the communication can be done or we are mainly focusing on multi-core communication there is a possibility to pass these pointers but of course when you communicate over spark this is not possible to this is a problem which is to be solved in RPC message as well so RPC depends on RPC message but those are physical addresses you can find your own data types and put it into your functions you will be declared and these structures will be also deserialized how you declare currently RPC is going through structure and serialize the exact size here we are supporting input also output you have very important questions yeah that's good so any other I wanted to return just a previous question currently we are supporting annotation we are calling this annotation to add some more information annotation shared where you can add the exact pointer address from one side to the other so the data are not serialized to the pointer so that's the more curious question but it's in the developing stage yeah well there is quite a lot of things to consider in embedded RPC for example we've been implementing lately nested calls that you can nest back and forth it's quite interesting because then the aim of the game is to take some stack and really provide for example a socket API to the other side and let the whole stack run on the game and when you do this sometimes by the design of the stack or the library you would need nested calls back and forth so we also support this so like edit yes sorry if yeah if one question is what would how do we handle that it's a good question in again this is something which is not yet well handled in RPC so for energy platforms we have something called power manager where we take power peaks but this is mainly used for multi-core microcontrollers in case of linux where there is a microcontroller and linux core this is very hard to handle in power and it is to be solved there are regular meetings with calls held by OpenAMB group each Thursday our time from 9pm so if you are interested in the hard message project or in AMP general you can go and join those calls if you send me an email I can send you an invitation we can discuss it but there is a lot of things to do yeah I'm taking it for the question but of course later the aim is to handle all this it's quite platform dependent that's the problem if it sends error messages well the data there is no checksum imposed by our message but in the payload data the application can do some checksum if needed for it because the aim is to make it generate the problem with with reboot or reset it's quite platform specific this as well there is this is quite you are getting to be hot it is relying on vertio so technically when one when there can be like back pressure if ok or from application you can send some knowledge if you want and wait for the technology that depends on the implementation but if you don't use anything and you just deplete the pool the master will not refill the pool and we will just run out of the buffers and we will have to wait back pressure maybe call it like this yeah it is ok you can reset but again this is button dependent it depends on the system there was a question yes this is possible and actually maybe it is possible to run server both sides yeah yeah ok so you can have one side and you can have the pool space you can have two instances we are just keeping one it is possible and also you can have multiple instances if you have multiple cores in your system and you need multiple independent channels running independent places in the shared memory yeah because I have been talking about packets or frames we need to consider those are just data written into a shared memory and the shared memory is an SRAM like link inside the system so I don't think this can really happen well you mentioned it going over UR you are talking about ERPC in case of ERPC of course there is an acknowledge there is an upper layer on top of either RB message in case of UR there is a CRC yeah there is CRC 16 or something like that yeah so any other question or maybe we are running out of time yeah so how the SPI transfer works so maybe which type of transport is used from RBC to serialized data and put this into transport so then it's called SPI sent on driver it's really important for SPI so as I said there is frame transfer so for SPI also for UR there is first message where there is CRC and how it works on the ICGs and then messages sending data and other messages and on the other side the CRC station RBC to serialize there are no other questions in case you are very interested in the ICG or just go and contribute to those so thank you