Welcome. Aloha. Thanks so much for joining us on Think Tech Hawaii. Today we've actually got two of the leading and most experienced attorneys in mask claims, class action claims in Hawaii to talk with us about the Maui wildfire situation. We've got Ilana Waxman of the Gallagher, DeRobertis and Waxman firm. Ilana is actually from Maui, a lot of history there, and Mark Davis, founder and senior partner at Davis-Levin Livingston. And both of Ilana and Mark have done a great deal of work in victim representation, in victim relief and compensation work for large mask claims and class claims, as well as individuals. So welcome.  Tell us a little bit about Lahaina. And what makes it unique? Yeah. So Lahaina, as many of you may know, Lahaina was the ancient or the original capital of the kingdom of Hawaii. It is an incredibly historic town. And the current community is also, it's a very historic plantation community. It's a multi-generational community. It's an immigrant community. And it is a town that has just absolutely been devastated. The scope of the loss is hard to put into words. So just in a nutshell, the history, tradition, culture of Lahaina, how would you characterize that? You know, it's a place with very, very deep roots in the Native Hawaiian community. It's a place with history in terms of the missionaries, in terms of the wailing days, in terms of plantations, and now tourism. And Mark, your thoughts. I'm sure you spent a great deal of time on Maui and with Maui clients as well. Well, I think that what is rather unique and kind of devastating about this whole experience for Alana and I, who basically spend our careers dealing with individuals who have had catastrophic experiences in their lives. And as you can imagine, day by day we hear all sorts of extraordinary stories that are quite devastating. But in this particular case, you know, what's been going on the past 30 days in which, you know, our phones have been ringing from morning till night, hearing one terrible story after another. You just can't help but be very touched and moved by the drama and the devastation that occurred there. And I think for many of us who are in this world of attempting to represent clients, this feels quite different. You know, this is personal. You know, it's not simply an objective evaluation of cases. It's, you know, I think we're just struck by this kind of intangible aspiration to try to do what we can for these people. And it's been, you know, I think quite an emotional experience for not only the people that suffered it, but also all of those, all of us who are involved in trying to do something that is, you know, constructive. Yeah, that's a good way to put it. So Alana, we know that this is a pervasively damaging disaster. Housing, health care, loss of income, schools in education, transportation, literally every aspect of daily life and destruction of the records and information information and resources that people would need to be able to even deal with any of those losses, much less all of them. So what are we looking at here for relief and recovery as the highest priorities in your perspective? Well, I mean, it's, it's, it's so much assassinated. I would say that the, obviously the highest priority right now is people to get long-term shelter, housing, but also, yes, replacing documents, pedigree and loss, identification. Yeah. And we're having a few issues with your connection, unfortunately, but I'm sure other areas, loss of income, employment, those things. So what can attorneys do to help? Well, I think that, you know, there's, I mean, typically what we try and do in situations like this or others is, you know, take a look at the, you know, the recovery of damages that, you know, tends to assist in the recovery of losses and so on. But it's not always that easy because to me there's a multi-level of needs that are required of this thing. And so as Alana pointed out, there are issues that are compelling issues with regard to shelter, food, clean water, replacement of documents and, you know, identifying the survivors, all of which kind of, you know, is the front lines of trying to, you know, have the first step in moving towards some level of recovery. And then, of course, a second level is to make, is to try to figure out a way in which people are compensated for their losses. It's not certainly an easy issue. It's not something that's totally clear. And as you are well aware from the media that there are, you know, multiple investigations going on everywhere with regard to trying to answer the question, you know, why did this happen? And, and of course, in any situation like that, there's always lots of, you know, finger pointing and, but there's a lot of, you know, energy and resources being placed into that investigation. And of course, the issue which is perhaps looming over this thing is whether ever there's going to be adequate resources, you know, to compensate these folks in a manner that is appropriate or a reasonable indication. And of course, those of us who are looking at this from 30,000 feet and we're just, you know, time to take a look at the broad approach. And I think that some extent the governor has voiced the same views is that, you know, there's, that's going to be an extraordinary challenge. So Elana, what are you seeing and hearing from people on Maui as their top priority concerns? I mean, as you said, you know, jobs and income, but housing, housing is the number one concern. People are very afraid that they're going to lose their entire community. That Lahaina is going to become, you know, my apologies to the Honolulu people, but another white key key that the sort of multi-generational, native Hawaiian working class community that has been there for the last couple hundred years is going to be replaced by fancy condos and luxury housing development because it is such valuable real estate and such a beautiful place. And so people really want to make sure that the community as a whole is protected and that people have the opportunity to rebuild. And there are so many layers to that. But as Mark said, that is going to take resources because this is a community of people who, you know, one of my friends who works in one of the resorts out there, he told me after the fire, you know, that his guys said he works with, everyone was just scraping by, and now they know more scrapers, they know more nothing. So it's a situation where, you know, really there are a lot of needs, there are mental health needs, but there is a huge need for monetary resources. That's what's going to let people stay and rebuild. So that's a huge priority. And that's a really important point to understand is that, yeah, monetary relief and support and compensation are critical, but right now people need a place to live, they need basic daily living need resources to be met. And, you know, I think in terms of what we can do as lawyers, you know, there's, there's absolutely the entire infrastructure in the economy needs to be rebuilt. And that includes the legal infrastructure, even though you might not think of it that way. You know, there are insurance issues, there are land title issues, there are immigration issues, there are family law issues that are coming up in everybody's life because kind of all of the, all of the normal everyday structures that were in place are, you know, they don't work anymore because the fire came through and destroyed so much. And so in a lot of people to rebuild all of those parts of their lives, really the law plays a very important role throughout. And we as lawyers have a lot of power to help people kind of walk through those different problems. And that's a really valuable insight, Ilana and Mark. So what do you think need to be important considerations and elements for the new model that doesn't repeat the vulnerabilities and the inequities? Well, I think, I think the community of Lahaina has spoken loud and clear about, you know, the fact that they intend and want to be at the table as the future is mapped out for rebuilding. And I have to, you know, acknowledge that some of our politicians have been, including the president of the United States has been, you know, receptive and sensitive to that issue. It's easy to kind of speak about these issues because words are cheap, but it seems like that at least the process commences on a common belief that the community of Lahaina must be the masters of their own destiny in terms of how this, you know, property is built. I mean, Lahaina had these unique characteristics of having, you know, buildings extended, you know, on pylons out into the harbor, very, some of the many restaurants on Broad Street were just, you know, almost inches from the bay, from the harbor. And all of those things, of course, under existing codes are not supposed to be rebuilt under the same circumstances. So I think government's got to be a big player in recognizing that despite their, you know, concerns, setbacks of the building, you know, that exist in normal situations, this is far from a normal situation. And perhaps one of the ways the county and others can, you know, contribute to this is to recognize that the character of Lahaina, you know, to be recaptured in some shadow of what it was has to get around some of these very difficult environmental protections that had generally served to cover all development in the state. So that's a picture that needs to unfold. You know, and you make a really good point because in addition to helping individuals and groups with compensation, how can lawyers help the community have a voice in the relief, recovery, the rebuilding? Ilana, your thoughts? Well, I think, I think Mark put it very well when he talked about having the community have a, have a seat at the table. I think people in Lahaina, especially in the native Hawaiian community, but the local community generally, there is a feeling that, you know, they've been displaced and pushed out and not listened to. And I think it is very important to kind of have, you know, members of the community organizations that have so far really led the relief effort for them to continue to be represented, you know, in how Lahaina is going to be rebuilt. And I think we as attorneys, you know, we do have, we have a voice, you know, that might be louder than, than some of the other community members when it comes to government officials and legal processes. And I think if we are very mindful of trying to listen to the community and help make sure that community members voices are heard and that they do have a seat at the table, I think that could be a very important role for attorneys to play. Mark, what are your thoughts? No, I think you are right. I think that, you know, this is only going to happen in any kind of a logical or sane development over a period of time if everybody kind of recognizes that, you know, there has to be a give and take process among all the governmental entities. I think to some extent, you know, the governor, when he, you know, was talking about some types of a claims process that recognized that everybody, you know, has got to kind of participate in that process. And I think it's only going to be as a result of a very unique and difficult collaboration that, you know, and it's going to be divisive and there will be, you know, disagreements.  You know, it will be a long and difficult process. And Hawaii, unfortunately, has had a history of, you know, struggling with these kind of issues like a lowest stadium and other places like that that are, you know, places for kind of logical, thoughtful redevelopment that, you know, all the various interests.  People need to be heard about their concerns and recognize that there are opposing viewpoints. And it's a process that, you know, hopefully some of our, you know, cultural approach to aloha and other things might manifest, you know, a result that is actually thoughtful and constructive. I think in terms of how the mass torts process and claims process possibly play a role in that. So, the idea that the governor is proposed of a claims fund, I don't know what that will look like or how that will work. But I do think, Mark, for us as plaintiff attorneys and claimants attorneys, that really is also an opportunity where, you know, I know we represent a lot of clients who are more, people ask, you know, they're not necessarily the people who have huge reviews or people whose voices are usually heard in these development issues. But I think kind of they are being represented by council and they do have an important role in this process. I think that actually becomes a good place not to say that all of our clients will agree about what should be done. But it does, it does give us a chance to represent a lot of different voices in the community that. Yeah, no, I agree. And I think the Hawaii bar, our local lawyers kind of have a unique position in this thing because we are governed not only by doing the best job we can for our clients, but we also kind of recognize a cultural and patriotic, you know, a duty to our community which sometimes may conflict with, you know, how we typically approach some of these issues. So I think that, you know, from my own personal standpoint, to me, that feels right. That's something that I endorse. And I think that, you know, part of what we have to do is the local Hawaii bar is to, you know, steer this hordes of lawyers that are used to doing mass tort work into the direction that best benefits not only our clients, but also the community and and and has a recognition of the limitation of resources that will be, you know, on the table and, you know, part of the issue. You know, and that's a really important insight, both of you, Elana and Mark, that we've seen the 9-11 disaster, we've seen the BP oil spills, we've seen the California wildfires, but in none of those have we really seen the victim's relief and compensation work and funding and process connected with the community relief and recovery. And you've raised the possibility, can Hawaii's lawyers contribute to building and making that connection in this situation? The lawyers throughout the state, and especially on Maui, have already been an integral part of some of these relief efforts, fundraising, you know, making donations of tangible goods, and then also pro bono legal services. You know, I've spent a number of days out in the family relief centers in Kana Pali with a lot of other members of the Maui Tony bar, giving people, you know, free legal information.  And yeah, I think there's just a lot that is coming from the legal community. So, I mean, Jackie, you said, can we help? And the answer, as Alon explained, is that we indeed can. But more so, we have to, that's our obligation. And, you know, we spend our lives pursuing hard claims against third parties. But I think that there's a greater good overhangs the entire analysis of the conflict that, you know, I think it's something that many of us who have lived here our whole lives and, you know, practiced here for all this number of years, you know, compels us to be put as part of the calculus, you know, as we move forward. I was, you know, a million years ago, I was part of what was called the TLC, the Trial Lawyers Care Program for 9-11. And that was the claims fund that the United States government had absolutely, you know, no, probably no liability whatsoever. But nonetheless, compelled them to, you know, create this fund. And there were, you know, certainly some people who believe that, you know, they wanted to pursue the typical liability claims that might exist for, you know, building deficiencies or other issues. But, you know, to me, the national bar came together. All 50 states, there were lawyers in Hawaii that helped represent some of the victims, plane crash in 9-11. And, you know, and it got done. And I know the, it's going to be a very complicated process, but something worth pursuing, I would think. You know, and you both raised a really good and important point, which is that, as you know, from your decades of work representing victims, victims of injury, harm, damage, loss, tend to be from the more vulnerable, the more underserved sectors of the population and less able to manage their rehabilitation and resiliency without that kind of assistance. And lawyers can play an important role in that. But as you've also pointed out, that group represents a really core part of the heart of the community, whose voice has far too often not been heard, given weight. And this may be an opportunity that you're pointing out for Hawaii's lawyers to try and change that model somewhat and get that voice out front and center. Does that make any sense? That is my goal. You know, I'm from Maui, born and raised. And I have seen, you know, a lot of people in our community have been pushed out by the high cost of living and there's been a lot of loss. And LaKaina has been such a resilient and tight-knit community. I want to see it rebuilt in a way that lets it stay local, stay Hawaiian, stay true to Hawaii's roots. And so, whatever I can do as an attorney to make that happen, that is absolutely my goal. And I think Chuck, you make a good point that not only should we review this as, you know, our responsibility, I think we need to look at it as an opportunity. And I think that if the lawyers who are involved on the front lines of these issues, those of us who are talking constantly to, you know, clients that have suffered these tremendous losses, we need to do what we can do, but we ought to want to do the same thing by virtue of the fact that this is an opportunity to kind of show what lawyers can do and what we should do. And that's a great point because you're talking about making that voice, making that influence, making those values and interests a central factor in the relief and the recovery and the rebuilding and how Hawaii lawyers have a unique role and, as you say, responsibility to do that. Are there factors in Hawaii that give that some particular elements of hope? Well, I mean, my own viewpoint is that, you know, Hawaii has always been a very special place. In terms of the bar, it's a place where people know each other, you know, in terms of litigation, like big cities, we, you know, we are remarkably civilized in terms of the way we interact with each other.  Elana, your perspective? Yeah, well, I think, as Mark says, Hawaii is a small and tight-knit community. And I don't think there are probably many people in the state that have not been touched by this disaster in one way or another. People have friends, people have family, people know and love behind that. So I think there's a lot of room for creative solutions. Yeah, and I think you've alluded to another point that you mentioned earlier. I mean, we have people in our leadership here. Chief Justice Rectonwall in the judiciary, the governor who, as I understand, is consulting with Andy Weiner, who has history of not only having done work for victims' representation, but also former chief of staff for Senator Schatz, and somebody who may help be responsive to putting together that collaborative voice for the far too long vulnerable and underhood. So any wrap-up thoughts? Jack, thank you for, you know, starting this conversation or continuing this conversation.  Elana? I'm just very hopeful that we will be able to find a way to rebuild behind us and make it better. You know, and Elana Waxman and Mark Davis, here are two of the people who, for many years, have been leaders in not only representing victims, but in enabling them to rebuild community connections and resilience. And the importance of exactly that connection is exactly what the two of you do well and have highlighted here. Thank you so much for joining us today. Think Tech Hawaii. Maui Strong.


Green synthesis of nanoparticles by biological systems especially plant extracts has become an emerging field in nanotechnology. In this study, zinc oxide nanoparticles were synthesized using laurus nobilis L dot leaves aqueous extract and two zinc salts, zinc acetate and zinc nitrate, as precursors. This article was authored by Shabnam Fakri, Mina Jamzad and Hassan Kabiri Fad.


I'm Keith Goslant here with renowned international poet Linda Quinlan. Yeah, that's how I mean. And Charles killed the same distinguished personage. It is Tuesday, November 2nd. Welcome to All Things LGBTQ. We have a lot of news and we'll turn it over to a wonderful internationally acclaimed poet. Our favorite Wicked Woman. Ready? I'm ready. My headlines are the Trump administration into a law discrimination and adoption in health care. Katie Hill, the bisexual representative in California, resigns. ICE is definitely detaining gay asylum seekers despite the court order that prohibited that behavior. Delta vows to restore deleted love scenes to bookmark and rocket man after a week of backlash. That's nice. Ed Buck will spend over a year in jail, because his trial won't be until August.  Colorado designer wants to discriminate against same-sex couples even though she doesn't really have a website yet. So we'll talk a little bit about that. Alrighty. In Georgia and Kentucky, law makers target trans youth.   Igamion was assaulted in alleged hate crime at a Boston bar. Radio host fired for allegedly sending homophobic tweets to himself.  Andy King, a New York City Democratic representative, has been suspended without pay for 30 days and fined $15,000 for comparing pride to child pornography. And Spellman College announces queer studies cheer in Audre Lorde's name. So we'll talk a little bit about that. So, okay.  So trivia. One person got it. One person didn't. I got it. Out in the mountains, November 1987, front page article. And it was talking about the just march on Washington that had occurred. There was a reference made to a very moving speech that had been given by Karen Thompson. So who's Karen Thompson? And why was she included as a rally speaker? So then we're going to talk about some events. One of the things is I want to remind people that this is open enrollment for the Affordable Care Act, which is still the law of the land. So if you need insurance coverage between now and December 15th, it's the time to enroll. And following up on that, please be talking to your healthcare providers in reference to Vermont Act 53. We'll talk a little bit about that in greater detail, because your health information is about to go into a centralized pool to which all providers will have access. There is a symposium that's going to be happening on November 16th at Main Street Landing in Burlington, sponsored by the Alliance of the Vermont Law School. How many alliances can we have? This is Stonewall at 50, a half century of LGBTQ plus civil rights advocacy. It's nine to five. It's free because they had a grant from the Johnson Family Foundation, but you do need to register online. And Beth Robinson, our favorite Supreme Court Justice, is the lunchtime speaker. It's election day, and I'm going to talk about some of the races that are happening and why we may want to be paying attention to it. November is Native American Heritage Month, and I'm going to talk a little bit about a movie called Dawnland and how you can stream it for free for this month. And then we're going to talk about Toronto. We could be the community newspaper for them. And associated with that, I want to remind people that Wednesday, November 20th is the Transgender Day of Remembrance and Resilience. And Ohave Zed Synagogue in Burlington at six o'clock is going to do the reading of names, creating sacred space. And then there will be a pot like afterwards to which people are invited. Well, I have many items of news that I hope you'll be interested in. The first involves Gay Penguins. I've mentioned them before on the show. I have an update. Christina Claudia Lopez, the first woman to lead Columbia's capitals. She was elected Mayor of Bogota. She's an open lesbian involved with a senator. Very exciting news there. An anti-LGBT preacher is banned from Ireland over abusive views, which are likely to stir up hatred. And I'm glad to be able to report this story because he's also been banned from New Zealand. And when I was reporting on that last time, I identified him as Stephen Ambrose, who is a prominent historian. His name really is Stephen Anderson. And all the countries, 26 countries in Europe have banned him. I don't know where Stephen Ambrose came from, but I stand corrected and I hope I haven't vilified historian Ambrose. Yes. We'll take him to dinner if you ever show up. My former school. All right, let's continue. Qantas Boss, this is news from the 1%, in New Zealand, Qantas Boss Alan Joyce marries his partner Shane Lloyd in glitzy Sydney Harbor wedding. So he's CEO. He's worth millions and millions of dollars. I have a picture of the couple on their way to their lavish ceremony. News from the 1%. I have another picture of a entirely different nature. A transgender woman was murdered in the El Salvador capital. Her name was Anahi Miranda Rivas. She was 27. I have a picture before you now. She was beaten to death. On a more upscale note, the first Muslim Pride event to take place in London next spring. And it's going to celebrate the LGBT plus community after $10,000 was raised by a fundraiser. So there's been success there. That's going to be exciting. More news, stories I may not get to, but I have pictures for. First, thousands join the Pride Parade in Taiwan. 200,000 people, there's a picture of them celebrating. The mayor of Manila, Isco Moreno, paints rainbow pedestrian lanes for LGBTQ people, but some people aren't happy. So the picture shows you walkers on the rainbow crosswalks, but some of the LGBTQ community says, forget the aesthetics, let's have some rights. One more interesting visual for you.  And here they are before you. South Korean president greets New Zealand ambassador to South Korea. His name, the ambassador's name is Philip Turner, and his husband is Hiroshi Akeda. Maybe I'll have time to elaborate on that, but those of my head might not. Maybe not. And she's at the other end of the table. So watch out. Well, what I want to elaborate on is that the South Korean president's name is Moon Jae-in. So there he is with the two. All right. Gay gentlemen. And now we'll move to the Trump administration. And they want discrimination and adoption in health care. This, of course, was the same week as National Adoption Month. The administration is attacking LGBTQ families. The Department of Health and Human Services has a new rule that adoption agencies can discriminate against LGBTQ families even if they get money from the government. This is a reversal of the Obama era policy, which did not allow agencies who got money from the federal government to discriminate. And this could also affect other groups like elder services, Head Start, Refugee Resettlement, HIV Services, and programs for homeless youth. So... Lock him up. Lock him up. Katie Hill, the bisexual representative from California Resign from Congress this week. She was being cyber bullied by pictures of a threesome, as well as new pictures of her on the internet by who she says is her abusive ex-husband. And there were pictures that were taken without her knowledge. Last, she said, as her final act, she voted to move forward on the Trump impeachment on behalf of the women of the United States of America. She all talked about patriarchy and feminism. And if you want to see her whole speech, it is, of course, on the internet. I thought it was a pretty good speech.  And, you know, I just want to say if she did not know about this and it was cyber-bullying, then it was really hardly her fault. I was disappointed in Nancy Pelosi's response, also. So I didn't think that was really a good way of approaching that. This is revenge porn. And several sessions ago passed a law that you can prosecute someone for initiating revenge. And Pelosi's remark seemed almost like blaming the victim. Yeah, like it was her fault somehow that this has happened. You know, despite the fact that if she suffered this staffer, it's probably, you know, it's not a good idea. But, okay. Colorado designer wants to discriminate against same-sex couples, even though no LGBTQ people have even asked. And in fact, she doesn't even have a website. But she wants to have a website. But before Laurie Smith of 303 Creative in Denver puts up a website, she wants to be able to know that she can put up as a Christian that she doesn't want to do anything for LGBTQ people because it's against her Christian beliefs. Her attorneys are from the Alliance Defending Freedom. But I mean, she doesn't even have a site up yet. In Georgia, in Kentucky, lawmaker's target trans youth. In Georgia, Representative Ginny Earhart is preparing a bill that would make it a felony for medical professionals to assist in minor, in the minor's transition in any way. In Kentucky, Representative Savannah Maddox has begun drafting a bill to protect children under 18 from gender retirement surgery or getting any drug treatment to alter their natal gender. So, there we go. I'm not even going to go into that if you are diagnosed with gender dysphoria, that you want to start all of that treatment before adolescence. Yeah. Yeah. No, that's why they want to stop that to make sure it doesn't happen. Okay. So, there are elections in Kentucky, and it's the gubernatorial race. And apparently, it's really close. And people are watching this because next year, oh, the pro tem of the Senate might be up for re-election from Kentucky. And this may give an indication of how vulnerable he is. The other races that are happening are in Virginia, and Vice President Pence has gone and campaigned on behalf of the Republicans. This is Donica Rome's first re-election bid. So, we're going to be watching really closely what happens in Virginia. Also, there's a real chance that the Democrats can take control of both houses in the Virginia legislature so they might actually pass some non-discrimination legislation. And Donica Rome is the first transgender legislator anywhere in the country. And that happened two years ago. So, Tucson and Arizona, we're going to be watching because they have a referendum going to see if they're going to become a sanctuary city. This in the era of 45s repressive immigration. South Bend, Indiana, where Mayor Pete may be coming from, he's not running for re-election. We're going to be watching to see who gets it, who comes in following him. And there's a Citizens Initiative in Washington where they got enough signatures to try to overturn Initiative 1000, which would have allowed for affirmative action policies and public education employment in contracting. So, they're trying to pull back proactive legislation very quickly. This is Native American Heritage Month. There is a film that's been released called Donlan that hopefully Zach is going to be able to put up the website where you can go on this month and stream it for free. And it's PBS if you can't find another way in. And one of the things that's significant is that this documentary was done in Maine. So, they're very close to us why they say we should be paying attention. For most of the 20th century, government agencies systematically forced Native American children from their homes and placed them with white families. That there was an estimate that Native children in Maine were 19 times more likely to be removed by child welfare workers than non-Native children. Many children experience devastating emotional harm in homes that shamed, demeaned, and tried to erase their culture. We should be aware that these atrocities are not history. This is still an active process. One of the statistics that they cited were Native children in Minnesota are still 14 times more likely to enter foster care than non-Native children. So, if you have a chance, it's a 54-minute documentary. There was a longer version that's available on the story website. Please watch this. Sounds good. Let's turn to the animal kingdom. Happily. Penguins. Penguins? No. No? Yes. Penguins and other species. The penguin couple from Sydney, Australia upon whom I have reported extensively that is to say, Sven and Magic, the two male gen two penguins at the Sea Life Aquarium in Sydney, who adopted a foster egg that became named Svengic. Now Svengic is growing up, and I have a picture of the family group. They have a little chick now? Well, you know, Svengic is maybe an, yeah, maybe an adolescence or early, you know, so the three of them. But then there's a possibility that another chick will be born. So Svengic will have a sibling. When Svengic was first born last October, both dads did well. Keepers noticed that the power couple have started to build a new nest this breeding season, complete with a special display of ice pebbles. Penguin supervisor Tish Hannon told the 10 daily they have the neatest and largest nest in the colony. And when we noticed that another couple were struggling to incubate two eggs at the same time, we made the decision to foster the second egg to the power couple of the colony. In September last year, lesbian penguin parents hatched a penguin chick in the London Sea Life Aquarium. Keepers have decided to allow the chick to grow into an adult as genderless, which is normal in the wild until they mature. But I'd like to expand our recognition of this gay penguin couple to include a clip that I'd like to show now from the Sydney Zoo. The term gay or bisexual is a sort of human term, but we do see a lot of same-sex pairings of different species, including penguins, where animals of the same sex species of the same sex will form pair bonds together, and they can spend up to their entire lives living together in harmony. So we have three same-sex pairings within our colony, and these are male birds that are together, and they live together. We do have one pair, Rani and Reggie, that actually have reared a chick of their own. They abandoned egg was given to them, the chick was given to them, and they reared it in that the offspring is currently living with the colony on Penguin Beach now. While animals can have same-sex relationships or pair bonds, they don't become homophobic because that's a human problem, and animals don't tend to react in the same way when animals form same-sex pair bonds. They are generally well accepted within the colony or within the community. When you talk about some of the mammal species, there's examples, particularly in primates closest to humans, the things like macaque monkeys, where they will engage in sexual activity with members of the same sex, and probably the most famous well-known is the Bonneville, which is a relative of the chimpanzee, which is very, very widely known and widely studied for having regular sex between both females and males, and doing that on a regular basis purely for pleasure rather than any other kind of understood scientific reason. Other mammals will also engage in same-sex relationships, so some of the cats, particularly lions, are known to mount and copulate each other during periods of pair bonding, but also probably more well-documented are some of the domestic animals, including cattle and sheep. It's well-documented that a number of species of insects, particularly after they first hatch or metamorphosize, will mate with individuals of their own sex, and we see that in things like fruit flies and certain beetle species. Birds are very well known for pair bonding, and birds, usually many long-lived species such as albatross and swans, as well as penguins, will pair for life. And if there aren't enough individuals of the opposite sex, they will often choose a member of the same sex because that instinct, that need to bond with another individual is very, very strong. I love those clips. It's great. Don't you feel like a grandparent now? And it says wisely that homophobia is a human. Animals don't have it, so they're all faring well in the zoos and in the wild, all these algae. You mean the other penguins I'm watching around saying? Yeah. Kill the gays. No, they aren't. And the clip illustrates all that. So let's turn to another good story, if I may, about Claudia Lopez. She's the leader of Columbia's Green Alliance Party and she has just won the mayoralty of Bogota, and I have a picture before you now of her celebrating. She kissed her partner amid a roaring crowd last weekend as she became the first woman to be elected mayor of Bogota, a position considered second in importance only to the presidency and a country known for its culture of machismo.  The 49 year old won Sunday's election with 35.21 percentage of the votes. I'm aware that I've received the fruit of the labor and fights of many generations of many women, Lopez said in her victory speech. They led the way for us to get here. Lopez was raised by her mother in a working class neighborhoods of Columbia sprawling capital with five younger siblings. She worked as a housekeeper while getting her master's in public administration and urban policy from Columbia University in New York and later earned a PhD in political science from Northwestern University. She entered politics in 1989 during a mass student movement that followed the assassination of Colombian president Luis Carlos Galán. One of the most significant groups she was involved in became known as the seventh ballot movement credited for successfully forming a constituent assembly in 1990 to reform Columbia's constitution. Her victory and this is sort of interesting. Her victory was a reminder of these origins as it was Galán's son who Lopez nearly defeated in the race for mayor. To the day in which a humble woman who is the daughter of a teacher and diverse wins for the first time the second most important elected office elected by the people in the country Lopez said during her victory speech. Video captured by the CNN affiliate showed the moment Lopez won kissing her partner Senator Angelica Lozano and I wish I had a picture of that but I couldn't get one. She kissed her Sunday night sharing an emotional embrace with her mother. Well Lopez and Lozano are affiliated with the Center Green Left Alliance Party. Colombia is the only country in which the same political families from the 20th century are still governing in the 21st century she told CNN. Colombia is a country that is advanced in many things but it's still got a lot of machismo. It's a very conservative country so congratulations to her. I have one more story unless you'd like me to wait with it. I think you could probably do one short story if you have one. All right well let me return to this person whose name I make stuff last time. Minister for Justice Charlie Flanagan signed the first exclusion order against Stephen Anderson in May. The mayor for justice Charlie Flanagan banned Anderson from speaking in Ireland because his views are considered likely to stir up hatred. A copy of the exclusion order was sent to Mr. Anderson. It reveals the minister's decision. Anderson founded a Baptist church in Arizona. Came to prominence when he said he had prayed for the death of President Barack Obama. He also prayed that he praised the killings of the 49 people in the Pulse nightclub. He was said to deliver a sermon in Dublin earlier this year with notice. He was set to deliver a sermon in Dublin with notice set on his website saying he was coming in May. The move this announcement led to an online petition calling for Anderson to be banned because of his anti-LGBT rhetoric which attracted 14,000 signatures as well as calls from Evangelical Alliance Ireland not to allow him into the country so he's even alienated the Evangelical Alliance. Following his exclusion Anderson said Ireland would feel the wrath of God because of the decision but he said he would not beg to be allowed into the country. He's been banned everywhere. Good. Except in like some other countries. Not so far. In Europe 26 countries have banned him. No. New Zealand just banned him as I reported last time. So he's not making much progress. Good. That's good. Well who's the woman minister who is involved is is considered Trump's white. What is his name? White I think. No. Anyway I heard her today giving a little speech about you know if um anybody voted against Trump you know they were um voting against God. Yeah. Pamela White if I had my phone I'd look it up. Anyway let's get to um some more stories.  A jury decided the St. Louis police denied a promotion to an officer because of his sexuality after he was told that the command staff has a problem with his sexuality saying would you mind toning down your gayness? I'm sorry I take that personally. I mean good that he is one. Sergeant Keith Windhaber brought a suit against the county police after he was denied promotion to lieutenant after serving since 1994. He was passed over for promotion 23 times. So 20 million dollars. Nice you can retire on that. Yes I would think so. And here's an interesting story about the openly gay killer Charles Rines and he was executed in I think it is North Dakota South Dakota um very recently. And one of the problems with this suit was it was not that he didn't even do the crime but the fact that the jurors in 1993 argued that um they didn't want to send him to prison because he might have too much fun there. And um so you know basically because of his sexuality he was given the death penalty. He killed a Donovan Schaefer a 22 year old worker at a Rapid City South Dakota shopping shop during a robbery. So there was no um he did it but the reasons he got the death penalty seemed really horrible and they they um tried to some lawyers tried to uh argue his case and appeal but it never went anywhere so anyway. May I just say one thing? Yeah. Her name is Pamela White. She's a televangelist based in Florida and personal pastor to President Trump. Right right. So that's the person. Yeah and and if anybody is interested in that she gave a little talk today about uh God punishing all of us for not voting for Trump. Nice. I know a gay man was assaulted in alleged hate crime at a Boston bar. Three men identifying as queer said they were the victims of a homophobic assault outside Jacques Cabaret early Sunday night. They were physically assaulted by a group of straight men according to one of the men Michael Flowers on his Facebook page. The attackers used anti-gay slurs while kicking and punching the three men. The Boston police department of civil rights is investigating this incident and a radio host fired for allegedly sending homophobic tweets to himself. Did you hear about that? No I missed that one. Seth Dunlap denies he did any such thing. The slur was sent after he criticized New Orleans Saints quarterback Drew Brees for appearing in a focus on the family video. So the Louisiana radio station fired him because they said he was using the station's Twitter account to send messages to himself. So I don't know about that but I'm telling you. And then there was another lawsuit top executive in LGBT where Sue's Comcast citing discrimination for being gay, Clayton Fennel began working for Comcast in 2001 and the lawsuit contends that discrimination started shortly after he started working at Comcast and that Comcast made a very hostile work environment for him. Early in his corporate career he was told he was too gay and too flamboyant for Comcast corporate culture. Some senior leaders said his voice was too high pitched. Really? Yes. And he was also asked three times to take a demotion and move to San Francisco where it would be more acceptable to be gay. Oh my gosh. And a really good story is Spelman College announces queer studies chair in Audre Lorde's name.  The newly created chair will be attached to the school's comparative women's studies program. And Audre Lorde as we know was an African-American poet and essayist. And when did she die, Ann, do you remember? I don't know but I can look that up too. She died probably in the 90s I would say, early 90s. And I always really loved her poetry. I loved her presence. I really really liked who she was. And I love the saying that she said if the revolution costs what more than fifty cents, Ann, or was it fifty dollars? Fifty dollars. It's not her revolution. I was at a conference where she was and it was a women's studies conference and these two scholars did a little song and dance saying you can join for fifty dollars. You can join the National Women's Studies Association and she came out afterwards immediately following this presentation and said any revolution that costs fifty dollars is not my revolution. Wonderful. I know she is a dynamic wonderful person. Yes. So anyway that'll be something to look at and follow as time goes on to see who gets to be put in that position and what not. So we can now go back. We're going to Toronto. Toronto. But first Thursday the 14th November six o'clock Pride Center in Burlington is the last of the local town hall forums where you can come and say as the LGBTQ plus community if you're advocating on my behalf these are the issues that are important. Toronto, their public library, the Palmerston branch, they gave space to Megan Murphy. Megan Murphy is the founder of the feminist currents website. She's also someone who says you know born woman that's it that sex is innate male female or intersex that she is not supportive of the transgender community that while you know she doesn't argue that transgender women have a right to exist she's worried about men disguising themselves as women and entering women only space. One of the issues is the library has a policy about promoting discrimination contempt or hatred to any group or person that they will not give space to anyone promoting discrimination and so it's in their policy. That way and I was going to get to that if you are promoting these things you can't use their space. So they received a petition with 9,000 signatures saying these people should not be able to use this space and the presentation was sponsored by the radical feminist unite. The event was sold out but there were so many demonstrators out front that when she finished she had to go out the back door. And this is the part that I just sort of go the library's response was they'd already hosted a neo-nazi group so what's the problem? The library. So yeah there you are dear to our hearts Toronto. There we are. Well let me begin by clarifying that Audrey Lord died in 1992. Very very young I think she was near 50s. Terrible loss for us all. Yes. So I was going to look up her exact age when she died. I think she was 50 something. 58 but we digress. Let's go back to the Qantas wedding. Ellen Joyce and his long-term partner Shane Lloyd in Sydney's famous harbor tying the knot in front of about 120 family friends and business executives. Joyce was a key campaigner for a same-sex marriage personally donating a million dollars to the campaign and nuptials came nearly two years after the yes vote. He and Lloyd had been together for 20 years share a house in the inner city suburb the rocks near the wedding location. The Qantas boss who is the country's country's highest paid CEO has raked in 24 million dollars last year and then there's a little he wore a suit by Aussie born designer Martin Grant whose outfits were favored by Meghan Markle during her tour last year so be informed about that. Our invitations must have gotten lost. I know. Let's return to this terrible thing in El Salvador the transgender woman authorities say a group of armed suspects who were inside a van grabbed Anahi Miranda Rivas 27 and I have a picture again you saw it in the beginning but let's show it again. In San Salvador the Capitol preliminary reports indicate the suspects held and dragged her for several meters along the boulevard before they stabbed her with a sharp object. The suspect then left Rivas body near a night club. Authorities arrived at the scene after a group of people realized what had happened and called 911. Additional details have not been released but Rivas's death raises the number of hate crimes that have been committed against the LGBT community especially against transgender women in the Central American country to more than 300. They have already seen been seven deaths this year and Anahi's death is the third most violent trans programs coordinator said we urgently need the mechanisms that have already been put in place with El Salvador's national civil police and in the prosecutor's office to be applied. We have time. Good let's talk about the first Muslim pride event that's going to take place. It's going to be held in London in the spring as I said. The celebration run by charity Iman will take place in the Capitol. Iman was set up in 1999 with the aim of helping LGBT Muslims who feel isolated due to prejudice toward them. The event will look to bring the people it supports together so that's great. And wasn't there like well I was reading about Palestinian authorities arresting LGBTQ people in Palestine? Really I didn't see that in my news feed. Do we have a trivia question or anything? Yeah we have a trivia question but I was going to go back to something that we were talking about while you were conferring with Zach. Apparently we're to blame for the wildfires in California. Tucker Carlson said that California has a diversity employment program and they're hiring under qualified LGBTQ plus and immigrants and that's why they can't contain the fires. So I will give the trivia question and then I'm told we might have a book review. So Karen Thompson March on Washington 1987 it might be easier to identify who Karen Thompson is if I told you that her partner was Sharon Kowalski and this was the lesbian visitation and guardianship hearing that started after Sharon was in a car accident in 1983 and sustained severe head trauma and was in a nursing home and there was a series of court battles first allowing then rescinding Karen's visitation then granting it back and finally the court ordered an independent evaluation to determine if Sharon had capacity to express her wishes and when she was asked repeatedly she always responded with where do you want to live and she said St. Cloud with Karen so finally in December of 1991 remember this started in 1983 Karen was finally granted full guardianship yeah and this was the first major visitation guardianship recognition of our rights as LGBTQ plus couples and did you see where this was what state Minnesota Minnesota okay because we were living as constant then right okay you're going to introduce your own book well yes um you're a self-contained act I know that we have many features in this show among them book reviews um on march 19th this my review of this memoir by uh Esther Newton called my butch career in 1985 Esther Newton's trailblazing essay The Mythic Managed Lesbian, Radcliffe Hall and the New Woman appeared in the pages of the lesbian issue of signs signs was a prestigious feminist journal at the time I was a lesbian scholar I remember greeting that volume reading the article it was really groundbreaking written in 1981 and published in this landmark volume the piece Newton explains was my return to scholarly work and it made masculine lesbians my subject finally I could pull my career and my queer life together but it is the period preceding this fusion that is the subject of this memoir Newton follows a conventional chronological path tracing her ancestral line and unorthodox childhood as she struggled to adjust as a half Jewish illegitimate child whose birth prompted ostracism from her firebrand mother's genteel wasp family describing her early years with her mother and her mother's second husband and lifelong father figure Saul Newton clarifies we signaled our deepest feelings toward and about each other if at all in a semaphore in which none of us were fluent I love that line Newton's life was also complicated by the fact in her early years that I became an anti-girl a girl refused Nick caught between genders she loses her straight virginity at 17 and more important is initiated into lesbian sex later that year introduced to the New York lesbian bar scene soon after Newton provides a cultural snapshot and here I'm quoting again that's what being butch meant in 1959 a masculine girl like me who wore men's clothes smoked lucky strikes wore her collar up in t-shirt sleeves rolled and dated femmes this formative milieu demonstrates to the young Newton what it's like to be butch the first identity that had ever made sense out of my body situation the first rendition of gender that ever rang true the first look I could ever pull together nevertheless Newton doesn't come out as a lesbian until seven years later during graduate school where her dissertation would become the book mother camp female impersonators in america a volume that helped establish her established her reputation as a radical thinker in lgbt studies when newton leaves chicago for new york in the summer of 1967 she under undertakes her first sexually satisfying relationship with an older woman and discovers the political movement to match her beliefs in the form of second wave feminism this chapter in the narrative rekindles the energy intentions of that time as newton chronicles her involvement in the upper west side witch stands for women's international conspiracy from hell the early meetings of the gay liberation front and interactions with such lesbian icons as jill johnston and bertha harris newton writes compellingly of her struggle to negotiate a long-standing friendship with a married heterosexual colleague during these years of political passion and contention six years after her arrival in new york newton acts on an impromptu invitation from friends to join them in mexico where she meets a french love interest who has requested anonymity in the memoir having received tenure yet alienated from academia newton embarks on a long distance relationship with this woman and eventually moves in with her in her paris flat this part of the memoir provides an informative counterpoint to the new york years as newton explores the women's movement in france dominated as it was by two separate factions the feminist revolutionary led by writer monique vt and psyche a poll led by psychiatrist antoinette fuq according to newton the two groups were not on speaking terms another key feature of new another key feature of newton's partial expatriation is her quest to adopt the lifestyle of her butch role model gertrude stein yes and to write an autobiographical novel a project she eventually abandons before returning to the states barnard college's famous 1982 scholar and the feminist nine conference marks a turning point for newton together with her friendship with feminist thinker gale rubin and perusal of an article by writer amber hollaball these catalysts allow newton to reject what she perceives to be the rigidity of certain lesbian feminist dicta and to finally declare it was okay to be butch for the first time in my life i embraced it without ambivalence i knew then that i would never be with another female partner who was attracted to me but ashamed of who i was who did not consciously identify as fem occasional debatable assertions notwithstanding my butch career is an important narrative of liberation they contribute singularly to the growing body of collective lgbtq history it covers the first 41 years of the writer's life a time frame that calls out for a sequel newton concludes her memoir with a tribute to the queer writers who have preceded her with this work she has secured her place in that august pantheon very good and it's a good book may i add there's a movie about her called agility that's being filmed and if you want to go on facebook and look up agility you can see clips of her clips of her reading she's making the rounds kind of on a book tour when's the film coming i don't know they're working on it okay so commercial release or cable or can't tell you i was gonna say is this like an amazon prime and netflix or am i going to go to the savoy and see this savoy i would say it's an independent film okay and it's in the works and it looks very interesting okay and what about terminator with all that new feminist um it's not getting good reviews oh i can't wait till it comes out we saw harry at its fabulous harry at its fabulous so okay and with that are we done i think we are okay remember to resist


And the emphasis of this presentation is on the primary sources and methodology. And because Middle Chinese is kind of the major in on all Chinese or one of the major ins on all Chinese, it will be mostly about Middle Chinese. So here goes. So we'll look at sources and methods, as I said. So for sources, and let's say, if these terms, any term like rhyme table isn't meaningful to you yet, just wait and we'll get to it. So one source is the rhyme tables. Another source are the rhyme books. Those are both about Middle Chinese. Then we get to the practice of early poetry. Now this is sort of direct evidence of all Chinese and the structure of the Chinese script itself, which is also gives you some phonetic information about all Chinese. And I want to emphasize that these four sources are used by all practitioners of all Chinese historical phonology. And then Baxter and Sagar, in particular, and other people to a lesser extent, use loanwords into non-synetic languages and other ancillary evidence. But these are really the pillars of all Chinese reconstruction. So let's look at the rhyme tables first. So there was a book, a rhyme table, called The Yun Jing, published in 1161 by a Mr. Zhang Lin Zhi. And the same year, it was a good year for rhyme tables, an almost identical book called Oh, there's some kind of typo in the title. It's the Jing Yun Lui by Zheng Xiao, which was part of this large reference work, this encyclopedia called The Tong Zhi. So these are what we mean when we say rhyme tables, these two books. So what information is given in the rhyme tables? They're a way to give phonetic information about how to read Chinese characters. So there is a rhyme category, an initial category, a rank. And this is one of the, let's say, less obvious terms in Chinese historical phonology, which we'll come back to. And then whether or not the syllable in question has a medial w, which is called He Keo. So that means closed mouth, because when you have a w, you go, yeah. And then if you don't have a w, then you go, ah, so that's open mouth. And that's called Kai Keo. So in case that's a factor. And that's it. So this is the information about Chinese pronunciation that's given explicitly in these books. Rhyme category, initial category, rank, and whether or not the syllable has a medial w. So here is chart 23 from the Yun Jing. And let's just look at it. It's a grid. So what you have across the top are the place and manner of articulation of the initial. And what you have down the side are the rhyme categories. And then you see that down the side, those rhyme categories are broken into four rows. So is everyone seeing the thing I'm describing? Yeah. So those four rows are called the ranks. That's what I'm calling the ranks. So there's a very important, I think this is super, super important epistemological point that I'm making, which is when we talk about rhymes and initials and ranks and hook up Kai Keo, we are talking about what you are looking at. Like we're talking about the mise en page of a specific book from the 12th century. And that is what things are built on. So when I say that this is a rank one voiced dental initial or something like that, I mean it's on this page, in this column, in this row of this book. Now you notice that there are some blank spots. That's because syllables of that structure do not exist in Middle Chinese. So this is an analysis of, you can say, Middle Chinese phonotactics. Now the, I wonder whether I get into this. Yeah, okay, well we'll see. The thing I want to say then is, so this is from the Yunqing. This is from the Qiyin Lue and I don't know, if you care to look, you will see that it's the same characters, yeah, with the same holes in the same places. So they clearly are like part of the same philological research tradition and, you know, have a shared source, but we don't know what it is. Yeah, or I mean I don't want to overstate that, there's research into that. But very conveniently for us, these two books use different terminology. So the Yunqing actually gives like place and manner of articulation in a way that's analogous to contemporary terminology. So you have things like the teeth sounds, yeah, or the top of the tongue sounds, yeah. So you get articulatory terminology, whereas the Qiyin Lue, it uses, I think the technical term is acrophonic terms. So it, you know, you can almost say like, you know, if this were in English, you would say something like the ball sound or something like that, to mean B, yeah. So it uses a word as an example of the category in order to name the category. So that's nice because the two documents use different terminology, but they're structured the same way, they have the same information in them, and then that's a way that gives us a kind of concrete phonetic interpretation of the information that's being given. So those are the rhyme tables. It's not an easy question. So what I would say is ranks mean what's going on in the page format of this book. So I wonder if I, I mean, I don't know how to do this, but let's just look together at the very upper left corner of this page. You see there's a blank spot, okay.  So the ranks really just refers to what row in the page formatting of this document, a character appears in. Now, then the question is, well, why did they put different characters in different rows? And there are people out there, you know, this is not the majority opinion, but there are people out there who say, well, because the page was too short to fit all the characters on one row, so they, you know, they put it on four rows, yeah. So that's not the majority opinion, but it gives you a sense that this is a hard problem. Now, the thing that's nice is from the, and you'll see this in a few minutes, from the perspective of all Chinese reconstruction, it kind of ends up not mattering. But from the perspective of the phonetic interpretation of middle Chinese, it's a very important and very hotly contested question. Nothing to do with that one. It has to, like, okay, you know, you're trying to get me to talk about something that cannot be talked about. But the answer is it has something to do with vowel quality or medial. The answer is kind of no for methodological reasons, which is to say the language, the way language is changed and or learned is from people speaking with their parents and speaking with their friends in the schoolyard and the effect of a prescriptive philological document on actual social behavior is highly, highly mediated. So there are examples, you know, like in English, in my dialect of English, we say wolf, whereas any historical linguist would tell us we should drop an L in that position, like we do in half, and that's the influence of the writing. So, you know, a written tradition can impinge on the development of a spoken language, but only in extremely circumscribed ways that I think played very little role in the history of Chinese. So what is the case is, unfortunately, modern Chinese dialectology takes the rhyme tables as their point of departure, where basically what you do is you take, you know, this as a form and you go and you ask someone to pronounce all the characters. And that gives you a certain amount of information about Chinese dialectology, but is a highly, let's say, particular research methodology that is non-standard in dialectology as an international discipline. So yeah, like we have to think very carefully about the, about how to put it, about imputing phonetic realism onto an abstract object. That's, I think, the way I would put it. So I would say it's, in a sense, a good question, but we would need to think about how to even go about interpreting the meaning of the question, like what kind of evidence would bear on pinpointing whether the labial feature of a Okka syllable is associated with the initial or is associated with the rhyme. And what I would say is, from the perspective of the rhyme tables, you know, this is done at a more abstract level, right? Like let's just look at this page in front of us and say, on the right, in the vertical column you see at the far right, the very last character is Kai. So that means all of the syllables on this page are, let's say, minus labial, right? That's like, we can think of it that way. The, like, it could have been that the feature, Okkaiko, by the author of this book was put in the top, in which case that person would have been saying that in his analysis it was a feature of the initial. Or it could have been put on the left, in which case that person's interpretation would have been that it was a feature of the rhymes. So what I would say is, from the perspective that the source material presents us with, it's a feature of the whole syllable.  So, like, I'll maybe leave it there. That's an excellent question. And I will answer it in two ways. One is, as we're about to see, the point of the rhyme tables, like the social function of the rhyme tables in the moment that they were published has to be understood. And that has to do with probably writing poetry. I mean, I think there was an analytical component of, like, just someone wanted to analyze the, you know, what we would say, the synchronic phonology of probably the prestige reading dialect of that person. But that's one angle, is we need to think about the social meaning of the philological act at the time and place in which it was done, and recognize that it was already participating in, like, for us, it's the starting point in terms of the most concrete information about pronunciation as early as available and as systematic as possible. But from the perspective of the Chinese philological tradition, this is a very, you know, late occurrence. And so there's a kind of, you know, a kind of, like, complicated dialectical relationship with, like, we're looking for, you know, the earliest, most informative source material for some kind of positive information about language at the time. But the primary sources are instead kind of feeding us a evolving philological tradition as it happens to be preserved by chance. So that's kind of the first comment. The second one is it then becomes a methodological question for us. And what I would say is it's a useful methodologically to assume that all sources point to the same, to use, you know, these are source term, etat de long, right, like the same structure. And is that true? Of course it's not true. It's an absurdity. It's, of course, not true. But it's by assuming that all of the primary sources are talking about the same structure that we discover those places where they are not, right? That's the methodological point. That if you assume that you're looking at noise and, oh, each document probably is another dialogue. If you make the assumption of heterogeneity, you will find no structure. Whereas if you make the assumption of structure, you will find heterogeneity. So I think that's the methodological principle that I would emphasize. Okay, so now moving on to the rhyme books. So we're moving backwards in time now. Okay, so the rhyme books, there would have been earlier material and Mr. Lu Fa Yan refers to this. But for all intents and purposes, we can think of the rhyme books as an interlocking genre of philological reference works that all descend from the Che Yun, which was written in 601. Okay, yeah. And then I'll just say, just kind of charming, the story, which I think is a literary can see to a large extent, is that Lu Fa Yan attended, when he was kind of a young man, he attended a party that his father put on, where all of the greats and the good were there. And they discussed kind of what is good practice in writing good poetry. And they really, they talked about, okay, well, what about this character? What about this character? And then he sort of listened in and then many, many years later, he sort of published the natural outcome of this party conversation, which is his reference work that tells you how to pronounce Chinese characters for use in elegant poetic composition. So hit that book, doesn't really exist anymore, unfortunately. So the oldest complete copy of it, or edition of it, is this Kan Mie Bu Chi Che Yun. Sorry, my Chinese is so awful, but, which was published in 706 by Wang Ren Shu. And this book was also lost for a long time, but a copy was found in the Library of the Imperial Palace in the 40s. So most philological research before the 1940s didn't use it because they didn't know it existed anymore. But it is now the oldest available complete rhyme book. And then the kind of go-to standard before the 1940s and still largely to this day, although I think that's a little bit sloppy because we have an older source, is the Guan Yun, which was published in 107, 108 under Imperial patronage. And it has loads of characters in it. You know, each of these gets one of the things that happens is the rhyme books get bigger as people add more and more characters in successive editions. There's an excellent article that is very, very recently published in the Bolton of Chinese Linguistics that I can send you if you like, that discusses the sort of philology of the rhyme books in terms of, you know, what are the differences between each edition? How have they been preserved? And whatnot that is, I think, a really nice piece of work that I can share with you. But also there's this wonderful home page that you can, I don't know, I mean, click on if you want, that gives, I mean, it's really great. It gives like parallel passages in the different editions of the rhyme books, often with photographs and so on. So now, you know, those of you or some of you at least are saying like, Oh, great, there are some books that were written at certain times and we published and some of them exist and some of them don't.  Yeah. So here is a page of beginning of one of the volumes of the Cheyoon. And this is in the first edition. This is the six. I mean, I'm simplifying a little tiny bit, but this is the original edition, which unfortunately only exists in scraps, yeah, from Dunhuang mostly. But, you know, then we can at least know what it was like. And here is my transcription of this page. So, you know, if you're like me, you look at this and it's kind of somehow inconvenient to read. So I've transcribed it and here it is. And I think it's very useful to, you know, I don't know for this is the lesson of me banging my head against the wall. It's very easy when you dip into Chinese historical phonology to become mesmerized by the the technical terminology and the debates over things like what are the ranks and whatnot. So I think it's really useful to know exactly what the relevant primary sources actually contain. So let's look at this a little bit. And I'll just look at this translation on the right. So it says there are 54 level tone rhymes. So each of the volumes of the book is a different tone. And then within the volume, so we're in the level tone volume, then we organize it into sort of sections, which are according to the tones. And then within the sorry, according to the rhymes, and then within each rhyme section, it's according to a syllable. And then you have a list of characters that represent that syllable in and those are called syllable groups. Okay, so here we're looking at this almost the table of contents of this volume. So it says there are 54 level tone rhymes. And then it lists them. So here I it lists 10. And it lists them using this form of phonetic annotation that we will see a lot called fancy where it's where where you represent one syllable by giving it two syllables as a gloss. I use the following English example, we say bone equals bake plus phone. So the point is that we analyze the syllable bone as starting with the same initial as the be in bake and having the same rhyme as the own in phone. And this is what we have here. So you see the the first so we have one tone talk plus home. So it's saying, I am naming the rhyme category tone. As a as a technical term. And how is it pronounced? You wonder, ah, the character tone is pronounced talk plus home. And then second one. I am naming the next category in my book tone. It's as a name of the rhyme. Yeah. And how do you pronounce the character tone? It's two plus song. Yeah. And okay. Broadly speaking, I think people are with me. So now let's look at a page from the 704 edition. And just as an aside. This is in this is in my book. This is in my book. This is not in my book because I was only at the time able to get my hands on an extremely blurry picture. And the publisher said, oh, no, we don't want to publish that blurry picture. It's useless. Whereas now I have access to a very beautiful reproduction of this book. So if if you want it, you can ask me for it. And I feel both happy and sad because happy now that I have this nice reproduction sad that I wasn't able to include a picture of it in my book. So here is the page from the book and it's transcription on the right. But for those of us who have a little trouble reading Chinese, let's look at the translation. Okay. So now in terms of the chronology, the thing we first looked at is the is the 602 edition. And this is the seven, I think 704 edition. But we're also talking about different part of the book. We were looking at the table of contents. And this is like an actual entry, like kind of deep in the book. Yeah. So we say, yeah, this is a one of the one of the syllable groups. So we're talking about words that are pronounced, yeah. So then it gives the analysis of the actual pronunciation of the syllable as I just explained using the fan system. So go plus get that means get also pronounced get now this also pronounced is not referring to all the words. It's only referring to the first character. So it's a say it's a it's very highly compressed way of imparting information. It says I'm using this character to name this category of syllable. But by the way, this character has another pronunciation.  There's also a vulgar way of writing it. Okay, total of nine characters have the pronunciation. Yeah. And then it gives the character, and it gives its meaning, it's already given the pronunciation, right, they're all pronounced yet. Right. And then it says, okay, so we have this character, which is a name of a precious stone. And we have this character, which means to ride a horse. We have this character, which is like a crow, but with three heads and six tails. So some kind of myth, a lot of logical animal. Then we have this character, which is the ghost of a small child that also has another pronunciation, which is, oh, I don't, I don't give it for some reason, that's a mistake of mine. And then we have a curved stone that also has another pronunciation. Yeah. And then we have a name of a mountain that also has another pronunciation. So, so now you have a sense of what this book looks like, right, you have the volume, according to tone, the sort of chapter, according to rhyme care, sorry, rhyme category, then you have the section according to syllable. And then under each syllable, it lists characters that are pronounced the same as each other. But it gives you little also indications of other pronunciations that those particular characters can have. And importantly, those pronunciations, generally speaking, are found in the correct place in the book, with a cross reference back to this place. Yeah. So, so that's the information we have in the rhyme books. Now, one thing that you can say is it's, it's like the phonetic information is less accessible in a kind of schematic way than it was in the rhyme tables you saw. And we're not given information like this is a voiced velar or this is a nasal final. It's much more murky and indirect than that and relies on you knowing the language already, so being able to read these annotations. Okay. So, what is the phonetic information available to us in the rhyme books? Okay, we have the tone because we know what volume it's in. We have the rhyme category because we know what, you know, chapter it's in. And then we have what I'm calling initial chains, which I'll get to in a moment. But it's because these, these, these annotations where it says, you know, it says, what was my example bone is bake plus phone. Well, now I know that bone and bake have the same initial and then I can look up bake and it will say, bake is, you know, bulgar plus cake. And then I can look up bulgar and you can make a little chain of initials. So that's what these initial chains are, which are called in Chinese, that's a modern term. Yeah. And then we have the, the divisions, which I will, I will just not say anything about at the moment, but say they have a kind of relationship to the ranks that I talked about in the rhyme tables and I'll get back to them. And then an important point I want to make is this hukou kaiko distinction is not recoverable from the rhyme books. It's only recoverable from the rhyme tables. There's, there's no direct way that I can figure out using the Che Yun, whether a syllable is hukou or kaiko. So one thing that, you know, you're, you're going to learn about historical Chinese phenology is that it's like epistemologically extremely messy, right? Because if I'm looking at a character and I want to know it's, it's pronunciation, I can know it's tone from 602, but whether or not it has a labial medial, I medial, I can only know from a 12th century source. So the time and the space get very messy, which is why I think methodologically speaking, we should assume that unless there's a reason to think otherwise, we're talking about the same language. Okay, so right, I think maybe even this is a good place to stop because that was all about middle Chinese phenology. And middle Chinese is one of the inputs into old Chinese. And what I'm going to now move on to in the presentation are the other inputs into old Chinese. But that's kind of different topic. And we, we looks like we only have five minutes left. So I think maybe that's a good place to leave off. And to just say that the course is not about middle Chinese. So for most intents and purposes, you can take what you've already been seeing, where's an example? Oh, yeah, yeah, here you see I have a romanization of the Chinese characters, that romanization is into Baxter's middle Chinese transcription system. And just an important point to make it Baxter has not his aim is not to provide a reconstruction of middle Chinese. So these questions like what exactly does hook oh mean and where is the label feature, he's not worried about that at all. He's just looking for a systematic romanization of the information that's contained in the rhyme books and the rhyme tables. So, so the point is kind of purely, if you like, that for, for many audiences, seeing roman letters, it's kind of easier on the eye and more transparent than looking at the, the, the, the, I mean, looking at the Chinese characters, because also like a Chinese character doesn't contain the information about where it's found in the rhyme tables and the rhyme books. So you would have to gloss it with actually there's a, there's a system of six other Chinese characters where you say, okay, what's its rhyme category, what's its tone, what's, what's its rank, so on. So, so the, so Baxter has provided this convenient romanization system, which you can think of as, if you like, containing, again, no phonetic information per se. It's just a paraphrase of these systematic categories of the rhyme books and the rhyme tables into roman letters. So the, the, the point I'm saying is if you want to worry about the details of all Chinese, sorry, middle Chinese phonology, you're welcome to, but if you don't want to worry about them, you can treat Baxter's romanization as a kind of philologically attested representation of a pronunciation and then worry about things like, you know, was the g pronounced g, right, in the same way that you would with Greek and Latin. That's, that's kind of Baxter's goal is to reduce the use of the rhyme tables and the rhyme books as philological sources to the same kind of problem you have of phonetic interpretation when dealing with an alphabetic representation of a language. So that's, I don't know, that's just something to really sort of hammer home because a lot of people criticize Baxter for saying like, you shouldn't write that with an o because it wasn't pronounced o, it was pronounced o, yeah, and that misses the point entirely. He's, he's, he's just trying to represent the categorical information of these two categories of philological sources in a convenient alphabetical representation.