Ladies and gentlemen I've never had a convening bell before That is to to bring here. I think why don't we go ahead and have our panelists and Scott? Why don't we go ahead here and Then we will officially Begin the proceedings Okay Welcome everyone I'm Carl Endefurth known as Rick. I'm the Wadwani chair and US India policy studies at CSIS Delighted to have you here for this Look at the US India economic relations a reality check We expect some more people to arrive Maybe they didn't want to have a reality check this early in the morning But they're going to get it because that's what we're here to do Ambassador Charlene Barshevsky is our featured speaker and we have a great panel that my colleague at CSIS Scott Miller will be presiding over With Diane Farrell from the US India Business Council Linda Dempsey from the National Association of Manufacturers and Ray Vickery Senior Director at Albright Stonebridge. So after we hear from Ambassador Barshevsky We will then immediately move to the panel discussion that we have and we'll try to wrap up around 11 o'clock as as advertised Thank you for coming here. This is you're not in the CSIS building I'm glad that you found your way here. We're convinced that for this particular event that people may be in one of three places We are moving from our 1800 K Street headquarters where we have been for 42 years We're moving to 1616 Rhode Island Avenue Tomorrow is our last day at CSIS and then the movers come in and then we will be up and running Hopefully next Monday on the 23rd But we were talking in the back here that we have no doubts that some of those who are Wishing to be here for this reality check are at 1800 K Street and some forward-leaning people are probably over on Rhode Island Avenue So let's hope that everyone will convene here At some point during the morning Let me just do a little bit of setting the scene here because Looking at the US-India economic relationship a reality check Could not be more timely as I'm sure all of you know Prime Minister Manmohan Singh Will be here on September 27th for a meeting with President Obama This will certainly be his last visit here to Washington as Prime Minister elections will be held and the April-May time frame in India and So this will be his last opportunity to meet with President Obama and According to administration officials The focus will be primarily on economic issues not a surprise So not only is there an agenda in terms of the United States and India to look at economic issues, but Unfortunately How do they say it India is going through a rough patch with its economy? We have by the way out here One of our publications that our fellow purses kumbhata and Samir now are one of our great interns did Critical questions, please pick that up on your way out if you don't already have it looking at What is taking place right now with India's economy? And what might be done in the near future to address these things? But everybody is on to this story two weeks ago the economist Had one of its lead articles on India on the brink how India got its funk. That's how they entitled their story Saying that the economy is in its tightest spot since 1991 which was that historic period for India turning its economy around with then finance minister Manmohan Singh Just last week the New York Times weighed in with an editorial India in reverse Saying that The economy is sliding into a deep slump Not funk, but they use slump Analysts analysts expect things to get even worse in the coming months. We need to again look at this in terms of a reality check and Since good and bad things come in threes this week. There was a article in the economic Times In India India's business confidence at four-year low a survey was done. So So what's the good news? Well, there's not a whole lot That you can point to although along with congressman Ami bear of The House of Representatives. We did a piece. He recently traveled to India We did a piece also in the economic times Entitled us India economic relationship Turn trade potential into reality. That's also on the back table here for you to look at We tried to place this current rough patch into a broader perspective and context And when one does that and steps back widen the lens a bit There have been a lot of positives in this relationship on the economic front But we've got some things that we have to deal with now Lots of frustration lots of concerns out there So that's what we will be talking about now and we will start this morning with Ambassador Charlene Bershevsky To talk for about 15 minutes and then we'll turn to the panel Let me very briefly introduce the ambassador her bio is out here along with the bios of our panelists She is Wilmer hails senior international partner She joined the firm after Serving as the US trade representative Chief trade negotiator principal trade policymaker for the US from 1997 to 2001 under President Clinton Those were great years by the way. That's what I had my opportunity to serve as assistant secretary for South Asia Prior to that she was acting as deputy USTR from 93 to 96 She is best known if you will internationally as the architect and chief negotiator of China's historic WTO agreement as well as a slew of other Agreements financial services telecommunications intellectual property all of these issues are ones that are very much in the forefront of trying to work Our way through the US India economic relationship now intellectual property rights high-tech products cyberspace I Cannot think of anyone better to open up our discussion this morning Then the ambassador and I would like with that as a brief introduction Ask her to join us only at the podium and take over from here. So Thanks very much ambassador Rick for your introduction and of course for your years of leadership on Relations with India South Asia Asia the region more generally and Scott many thanks to you and the CSIS for having me here so that I could make a couple of brief remarks about India I Know CSIS is moving. There's a lot on its plate And so I am most particularly impressed with the fact that you're holding this Just days after an Indian American becomes Miss America Which was well absolutely fabulous Apart from that Prime Ministers visit here In a couple of weeks. I think provides a very good opportunity to take stock of the US India Relationship and to see how we can improvement improve it because it does need improvement This is a relationship that should be much stronger than it is It's a relationship that should be healthier than it is It's a relationship that should be contributing to both economies more than it is The strength of ties between the US and India over the last two decades I think ranks among the most important geopolitical developments since the end of the Cold War With the US India relationship constrained for many years by the rivalry between Washington and Moscow The fall of the Soviet Union brought a real opportunity for a new type of relationship between the US and India and As India began to open its economy in the early 90s and of course Rick was instrumental and Ray was instrumental Economic opportunities emerged From these enhanced ties President Clinton made a breakthrough visit to India state visit in 2000 and successive US and Indian Administrations have continued to really nurture the relationship It's often said that as the world's two largest democracies Friendship between the US and India is only natural and it is natural And although India may have over a dozen official languages more than the US We actually still all speak English And that common language is one of democratic pluralism civic activism freedom of speech Entrepreneurship and rule of law In addition to these foundational values Regional and global developments have promoted further convergence of our strategic interests Whether instability in Afghanistan and Pakistan or China's regional security policy global terrorism And security of energy supplies all of these issues are issues around which our Countries share common or similar perspectives This enhanced strategic partnership has been matched to some degree on the economic side And the two have complimented each other at times So the most prominent example, of course is the landmark civil nuclear cooperation agreement in 2005 which created the potential Not only for nuclear trade but for trade in other advanced technologies as well The last decades of expanding economic ties started from a very modest base With two-way trade between the US and India at less than six billion in 1990 which is really in trade terms nothing By 2012 it had grown to more than 57 billion. That's much more significant between 2002 and 2012 Indian foreign direct investment in the United States grew from 227 million in capital flow terms nothing To five point two billion very nice And over the same period US direct investment in India went from a little more than four billion to 28.4 billion The US India Business Council estimates that a half a million US jobs depend on our economic relationship with India and with India's middle class now estimated at 300 million the population of the United States Bilateral trade in goods and services are really poised for continued growth So what's the problem? Well despite these very positive trends The trade and investment Relationship in my view is characterized much more by unrealized potential Then fulfilled opportunity the economic relationship Should be stronger and more robust than it is When you simply consider the size of our economies the population size as well as the strength of the strategic Relationship and the commonality that we share So despite being on track to be the world's third largest economy India is the US's 13th largest trading partner So we trade more with Taiwan We trade more with Korea. We trade more with Saudi Arabia With the Netherlands and many many others then with India and that is surprising, right So I think three factors are at play that keep trade flows suppressed. I Think first of all is the macro situation generally So economic growth in both India and the US has slowed considerably This past year has been particularly bad for India Experiencing just five percent economic growth, which is the lowest in a decade Foreign direct investment fell last year by 67 percent Although it's up again and the rupee has fallen by 16 percent in just the last few months And if you look at the US 2.2 percent growth rate Makes clear our own economy is still not recovered from the financial meltdown of 2008 and it'll be quite some time before our economy is back on track Second you have a series of Longer-term systemic issues that have always been problematic Both foreign and Indian investors Continue to see trade and investment impediments to domestic growth So despite substantial liberalization of the Indian economy launched two decades ago Vexing regulations and a very challenging legal system continue to make doing business in India very very difficult Headlines in the Wall Street Journal or the New York Times attest to this But less anecdotally if you look at the World Bank's index of ease of doing business in 2012 India ranked number 132 out of 185 countries This is a dreadful record So according to the World Bank, it is easier to do business in Russia than in India in Nigeria than in India Far easier to do business in China than in India or in Brazil than in India This is truly lost opportunity for India for India Third with these systemic issues a number of specific Recent Indian policies and Failures to lift long-standing trade barriers have disrupted the trajectory of the US Indian economic relationship collectively the undermining of intellectual property rights restrictive procurement rules The failure to ease to ease market access restrictions across numerous sectors call into question India's commitment to modernization and Will all require substantial reform The depth of concern from these developments and the danger they pose to the relationship Was illustrated at Mike from in recent confirmation hearing It is the first public hearing of the general nature that I can ever remember Where members of Congress focused more on India than on any other country? Which indicates the depth of concern about the current situation in India So let me take you briefly through the issues of IP protection local innovation policies and market access barriers to name a few areas of concern so India has been selectively overriding intellectual property protection of multinational companies by adopting Very troubling approaches on IP indeed. WTO and consistent approaches on IP India's most recent forays on the IP side Call into question as US TR has said the future condition of the innovative climate in India Across multiple sectors and multiple disciplines These concerns stem from a number of specific decisions taken in India The Indian government has turned to compulsory licensing to overturn patent rights It recently overrode one of buyers patents for a cancer drug in this manner Using an extraordinary instrument Generally reserved for healthcare emergencies as part of India's industrial policy This is industrial policy India has endorsed Sorry, the Indian Supreme Court Recently affirmed a patent rejection for an innovative Novartis cancer drug that has received patent protection in more than 40 countries In August a patent appeals board revoked two patents for glaucoma drugs held by allergen Patients on cancer drugs produced by Pfizer and Roche Patents were revoked in 2012 India has also endorsed compulsory licensing in other non-pharmaceutical Sectors for instance India's national manufacturing policy Has specifically called for this approach with respect to green technology Together these actions call into question India's commitment to intellectual property rights And it's commitment to WTO rules and are fostering an atmosphere that I believe will impede investment going forward second India has borrowed a page from China and sought to require specified levels of local innovation And local content in IT products so India's Preferential market access notification requires the purchase of locally Manufactured products in certain instances now India said they'll reconsider this initiative Well, actually what they said was they would reconsider part of the initiative and it's not clear what reconsider means More generally India has made very little progress in reforming its government procurement policies Which allow for discriminatory treatment and which embody Opaque decision-making India hasn't joined the WTO procurement code and has demonstrated very limited willingness to pass reforms that would harmonize procurement and Expose procurement processes to more international competition and Third India continues to maintain very onerous market access requirements in a variety of sectors So it's tariff rates on agricultural products range from a hundred percent to three hundred percent Which are among the highest in the world The Indian government continues to play a dominant role in the services sector and has put in place equity restrictions and other limitations in numerous areas including accounting audiovisual services banking financial services insurance Telecoms retail and so on India did ease the foreign equity caps for Retailing last year But it left much of the authority to individual states to decide whether to implement on a specific basis So we know where that's going So these hurdles to much needed investment and trade liberalization are as inimical to India's growth As it is to market access by foreign by multinational companies with last year's unveiling of a new model bit by the US with Re-invigorated negotiations with China One would hope that bit negotiations with India would also resume in full force Indeed there was agreement among the Prime Minister and the president a year ago that they should But in fact bit negotiations have been largely stalled since 2008 and shortly we're coming up upon 2014 Last of course even the Civilian nuclear cooperation accord has had very limited promise One issue of course is India's liability laws Which appear to be out of step with international norms another issue? certainly No fault at all of India of course is Fukushima and the general concern about the safety of nuclear power now at the same time There are long-standing issues India has with US government policy Which really ought to be corrected?  So the first is our intractable immigration debate and what you see is the conflating of illegal immigration with legal immigration In the Congress and this is extremely unfortunate and dangerous Because legal immigration Which allows for the free movement of highly skilled workers has been nothing but a plus For the United States and for India So instead some on Capitol Hill have called for a curtailment of The key program in this area, which is the H1B visa program Which has allowed thousands of workers from India and elsewhere around the world To come to the US to work to grow to impart their knowledge and to help improve the US economy Only Congress could find something wrong with that And of course second with respect to H1B India has had a long-standing issue Over the equalization of social security taxes paid by Indian workers on H1B and it Really is time for the United States government to step up and fix this problem So let me conclude by saying that India in the US Should be able to do much better on trade investment and related policies than recent dialogue suggests The strong foundation of interests and values The complementarities in our economies the relatively low level of current economic activity All suggest that we should have a bright outlook So I think the Prime Minister's upcoming visit and of course elections will be coming this spring And one would hope in the context of a new administration as well both sides ought to do two things reaffirm the commonalities between the two countries and Put the economic relationship on a far more positive and accelerated trajectory So thank you very very much and with that I turn this over to Scott and this fabulous panel. Thank you Scott Thank you, Ambassador Barshasky. Let me add my welcome to all of you who joined us here at the Conference Center I want to also welcome the people who are viewing this live webcast online at css.org You can follow us and those of you who would like the materials after the fact The the webcast will be available for your viewing as well the remarks from Ambassador Barshasky India of course is facing its biggest economic challenge and and perhaps crisis since 1991 Like any world any economy engaged with the world. So that's basically anybody but North Korea External global factors will play a role in your economic performance and certainly at the moment Changes in the commodities market and the credit markets After this the relatively recent reversals after very long booms is having an effect in India as elsewhere But for the most part economic performance comes down to the fundamentals Governments that adopt the policies that promote growth and productivity and innovation Will do the best that attracting capital and ultimately in the long run do the best at providing welfare citizens and creating opportunity for citizens Now India to its credit had a similar crisis in 1991 and in the words of Romo manual They did not let that crisis go to waste. There were fundamental reforms put in place At that time which which benefited even India for at least a 20 year run and it's a very very impressive 20 years The real question and the question that I'd like to engage with our panelists today is What happens this time? Well, well, will this particular crisis go to waste or not? To discuss this matter and we'll include the audience shortly after some opening remarks I'm pleased to welcome a panel with deep expertise on US India commercial matters Their biographical statements were included in the materials you picked up on the way in but let me introduce briefly Diane Farrell executive vice president of the US India Business Council Diane has been at US IBC since 2011 before that was a director of the US XM Bank Next will be Linda Dempsey Linda is vice president of the International Economic Affairs for the National Association of Manufacturers Linda's been at NAM for about a year now But before that had a long experience in both the private sector and on Capitol Hill and finally we'll turn to Ray Vickery Senior director of all parts Stonebridge Ray was assistant secretary of Commerce for trade development in the Clinton administration and recently has had Probably the most diverse set of US India commercial experiences. I can imagine he worked on the civil nuclear initiative He worked on cooperation of US and India on health programs and most importantly He was part of the Bollywood Hollywood program to fight movie piracy So with that I'm going to turn it over to the panelists in sequence for opening remarks and then we'll Enjoying the audience for questions. So Diane Thank You Scott and good morning. Now. I always start out by inviting people to say good morning back We can always use the extra oxygen. So good morning That was really tepid folks. Good morning. Good morning. That's a little better Linda you should ask them to do the same Scott, thank you so much for including me to our wonderful speaker Ambassador Barshevsky Thank you for your comments. It's always Important to get your perspective given all of your experiences through multiple generations of Political leadership here in Washington and to watch the relationship over that period of time is I think provides tremendous insight I'm always thrilled to be in the room with Ambassador Inderfurth, although I don't see him in there He is okay. He's back in his seat already But thank you so much for including me and congratulations on all the fine work that CSIS does And to your staff who I enjoy working with so so very frequently Charlene I think really did hit on all of the problem areas and I think what's very Constructive about her approach is that we have to be talking about those challenges that we face The more we have a dialogue with our Indian counterparts the greater the likelihood that we can resolve Some of the outstanding issues that are of concern to our companies and and to our respective governments At the same time, I think it is important to recognize that while we do celebrate the world's largest democracy and the world's oldest Democracy some of the functionalities within our democracies are in fact different and distinct and where we are very fond of the expression You know watching sausage made and we have all these debates over policy issues Oftentimes those policy issues have been vetted through the thought leaders or the decision makers by the time they make it to the public debate That's not always the case in the Indian system Multi-brand retail is a perfect case in point and multi-brand retail is emblematic of some of the deep You know frustration and concern over those who have great enthusiasm and high expectations about the strength of the relationship And I say that because if you recall it's about two years ago Rick Ross I would know exactly the Indian government originally announced that they were open to multi-brand. It came from the central government. I We we were we actually were visiting with Indian officials at that time who felt that the The edict would hold but as we know about two weeks later as some of us were celebrating Thanksgiving dinner It came across the wires that the Indian government had actually withdrawn the suggestion That was deeply unsettling to people who in this country who are you know born to plan We all have our quarterly plans. We have our business plans. We have our expectations and we also come to rely upon You know a firm confirmation on a decision that's been made and yet that got pulled back The explanation for that was that in some instances when it comes to the system of laws and governance Some of this discussion is not allowed to be held between Officials and be fully baked necessarily before it's released for public input or even within the government itself And that does lead to judgments and confusion And an inevitable desire for those of us used to the American system to want to sort of transfer Our impressions of how things should work in a democratic debate as opposed to how they may actually work when you're talking about the Indian system of democracy and And free speech But it makes it hard. It makes it difficult for companies to plan It makes it an uncomfortable for governments to feel that you know an issue is settled But it's something that we have come to realize and embrace and have to respect I think that's terribly important because you know India is still a young democracy In fact on Charlie Rose last week he was interviewing a week before last was interviewing the chairman and CEO of Morgan Stanley and they did an around-the-world review of what you know what various countries are doing Obviously China was you know number one on the list and Charlie asked about India and the the CEO's response was that When he visits India, he is always told that in ten years time everything will look different Infrastructure will be resolved some of these other policy issues will be done And he said the problem is that you know It's now been five or six years since he's been going and he keeps hearing ten years ten years ten years And it's hard to be patient when that's the way something is explained He also said which I thought was very important and significant is India has a very mature bureaucracy clearly it precedes independence and it has still a fairly immature democracy and Try to imagine in your own minds managing an election that involves 1.2 billion people This will be the largest experiment in democratic elections that will take place on the planet Sometime probably toward the end of the first quarter or beginning of the second quarter And so you have to again be able to sort of understand the the the playing field from the other side as You're going through these kinds of problems to solve Now that's not to say that at the u.s. India business council. We are not banging the drum daily To deal with some of these policy decisions that have deep impact on our member companies on multinationals around the world and Indian companies who are Excelling and who have been beneficiaries of some of the reforms beginning in 1991 and so we are constantly Talking to our counterparts in the u.s. Government and in the Indian Government to talk about some policy decisions that we believe Are actually going to impede progress in India as opposed to Promote progress in India now the ambassador mentioned the preferred market access policy that has to do with Force localization of manufacturing now India is a very unique economic model because it still has an enormously large and inefficient agrarian sector And it has this Remarkable tech sector that you know Tim Friedman put on the map when he first wrote the world is flat And it sort of skipped over what developing economies generally evolved to after an agrarian Agricultural center, which of course will be manufacturing and in fact manufacturing has declined Even since it's high of 15 percent and it's the Indian government's aim to get it to 25 percent as quickly as possible And so they looked at some opportunities. They looked at the market. They look specifically at technology equipment and you know as you know, I there the proliferation of ownership of Cell phones in India again is historic when you look at the world, you know on over and yet no one's manufacturing though that Equipment in the country. Why is that? Well, the honest answer is it's because the infrastructure doesn't exist to do that kind of Manufacturing yet, but the Indians wanted to push forward I called it a bit of a shortcut approach and announced this preferred market access policy that was Extremely poorly met by companies who would be directly impacted IBM would be a perfect example Now we have a buy America policy so again if the Indian government chose to Maintain a procurement policy that was restricted to government procurement purchasing from Indian companies as a first choice Far be it from the United States to suggest that that's somehow improper when in fact we have buy America The problem was the bleed into the private sector and again the desire to catch up I mean they see the rest of the world moving They see how their their citizenry have embraced technology and they want to catch up But thankfully through tremendous advocacy efforts on all of our parts The Prime Minister's office announced that they had withdrawn their intention to apply this policy to the private sector a Little bit of a source of frustration is that there's nothing sort of Inwriting and forcible at a court that says that they'll never do it again But they have moved a tremendous distance in the last few months as a result of the advocacy that has come from the international community Not just the United States IPR the intellectual property issues that have to do with the recent patent revocations Is seriously concerning and I want to defer to Linda because I know she's been doing a lot of work on this I will say that when I look at the array of Challenges policy challenges that we have the global community has with the Indian government It's going to be in this area and it's going to be the hardest one to solve and that's why I'm leaving it to Linda because I know she's got all the answers But nevertheless, you know this this kind of dialogue this kind of discussion is terribly important Now it has caught the interest of our elected and members on Capitol Hill through advocacy efforts And as a result, you know, we have an onerous provision in the immigration comprehensive immigration bill that came from the Senate that is directly targeted at Indian tech firms and even though the Indian tech firms are not necessarily the ones who are are promulgating the policy issues It's a mechanism that can be used as a levering point in the same way that There is now this study underway with the International Trade Commission to be looking at India trade policy Something called a section 332 that was initiated by two members of the Senate very recently So there are there are tools with which at all levels It forces the discussion it forces some of this Difficulty tax would be the other one that is universally Experienced right now India is in a very serious economic situation Though most economists do not feel that this is 1991 redux because India does not have the same kind of outstanding debt internationally that it did in 91 However, there is no question that as the Finance Minister is promised to keep the budget and the current account deficit within certain limits at the same time that the food security bill was just passed out of Parliament and there is Clearly a political season underway where you have a party that wants to do the outreach to the rural sectors where Opportunities for free grain etc. May be a political advantage in this moment at this moment in time you know there are concerns the investment community is concerned and Private equity investors who have gone through their first cycle have concerns about whether or not they Receive the kind of returns that they were looking for whether they can even exit some of these some of these plans Nevertheless, and I think this is the important thing to remember City Bank and GE have been in India for over a hundred years Companies who have current grievances in India with the Indian government or with state or local governments are Remaining in India. You cannot ignore a market of 1.2 billion people. You cannot ignore a population that is 50% of which is under the age of 25 and has the potential to be the world's largest consumer Market because as we know the Chinese are becoming older and therefore India really is the place, but it's not easy It's not for the faint of heart and I'll leave you with another comment I McKenzie is a member of the US India Business Council and they always give very sage advice and I was on the phone with one of The principles in India about two months ago actually talking about infrastructure because it really is the the glaring Soar that is withhold. It is really holding back a lot of development some even the finance minister estimates It could be 2% of GDP Because infrastructure is it's just lagging so badly But what this gentleman from McKenzie said is the longer you wait to get to India the more it's going to cost you And so I think against that backdrop where we have serious issues and where the expectation is that the prime minister will be very candid with President Obama about immigration reform and we know that President Obama along with Ambassador from and along with Vice President Biden along with Secretary Kerry Have and will continue to be very strong and very firm on these significant policy issues The reality is that we need each other. We need each other strategically for the region We have an excellent relationship when it comes to Security and in fact procurement on that side And on the economic side, we know that this is a market where there's a mutual need There's there's a mutual desire to work these things through so we do it every day We continue to bang the drum to do what's necessary And when you see and when you see movement when you see the prime minister's office taking a more reasonable approach To force localization, for example You can absolutely believe that things can get better. It's just going to take a lot of work and some energy And comfortable shoes. I'm always fond of saying to people It's a marathon folks wear comfortable shoes Thank you very much. Thank you. Diane linda Thank you very much and like diane I I echo the great honor it is to be here. Thank you ambassador into furth and of course scott. Um, you really, uh Put csis back on the map on international trade policy and your long experience shows on that A few years back bill gates wrote a book that was widely read the road ahead It talked about how investors view companies and I think countries as well He talked about country companies that are either on a positive spiral attracting attention talent with an air of destiny And companies Companies again on a negative spiral doomed by lost trust confidence and uncertainty Gates wrote that it was very difficult to turn around a company On that downward spiral and he gave great credit To leaders like liaya coca who was able to do just that three years ago India was on a positive spiral a global economic success lifting millions out of poverty And undertaking strong growth through reform if halted and sometimes slow but still reform Today, I think we all are in agreement That is a cautionary tale Our banks the imf are in competition with each other to lower india's economic forecast Many investors in india and around the world Are looking elsewhere capital is fleeing according to india's own data in FDI fell by about 36 percent between the Financial years 2001 to 12 and 2012 to 13 There have been a few little upticks But some recent data suggests It is still a very difficult picture And certainly india is getting far less of the global fdi flows that are available around the world Although they are increasingly scarce india's fdi and telecommunications Was about two billion in the april 2011 to may 2012 period A year later. It was 300 million What happened? Many claimed and and and do that the indian economy is just a victim of of the global economic recession and the broader challenges facing many developing countries And to some extent that's true But when these types of shocks hit investors have choices investors Can look and may stand With countries and commit to the long haul As many companies did with mexico despite the peso crisis Or they may pull out or not enter At the first sign of trouble This time around we are seeing investors stick with countries like chili that has strong rules A strong interest in Undertaking and enforcing its global obligations As well as other countries thinking of the philippines for instance and even of brazil that are working hard to stabilize their own economy And where we see fdi On the rise In india however investors are pulling back just this year Major projects in steel insurance retail and other sectors lost investors There are plenty of reasons ambassador barshowski Went into great detail as did my colleague diane I would put this frame on it three basic issues first bad policies ambassador barshowski and diane talked about the manufacturing policy that india released in 2011 As a representative of the national association of manufacturers who aim it is to grow manufacturing here in the united states I certainly applaud The goal to grow manufacturing in every country But the question is how you do it And what india has proposed and propounded and moved forward and then took a step back But i don't think has completely Uh Taken back its preferred market access policy on localization Uh has been to propose policies that are discriminatory That seek to advance their own companies at the expense of the world community and are in direct Contravention of the international rules india itself Began with the ghat back in the 1940s So india has pulled back a little but that overhang of forced localization and telecommunications and ict is still there We still see forced localization and clean energy and medical devices And if india is allowed to continue these policies others will surely follow with devastating results For all of us here in the united states in the business community and as well as industries around the world Second is a lack of trust a loss of trust India has been denying revoking and compulsory licensing patents. Uh, there've been over 12 innovative medical medicines that it has done so in the last year as ambassador barchefsky has noted Rights holders no longer Believe that their property is safe And if some of these rights can be taken everyone is at risk India has lost the trust Of a great portion of the american business community as well as companies in europe and elsewhere And finally indecision India has a special knack for stomping on its own positive messages for investor We we heard a little bit about the multi-brand Retail the fits and the starts and even when it moved forward again It has so smothered that opportunity with over regulation and bureaucracy to scare off investors India has failed to improve its infrastructure Its health care is education system to be the type of Country that attracts the the level of foreign direct investment The type of foreign direct investment to improve its economy and sustain economic growth For out for its entire country in fact less than 1 percent of the world's health care spending is done in india India the indian government spends about 1.2 percent of its gdp on health care By comparison russia spends about 3.7 and brazil 4.1 India has reversed course by action by inaction And it seems to be doing everything it can to turn investors away This has very much devastated india's brand in the united states India is according to the world bank the world's third largest economy in the world It's in the g20. It's playing a very significant Although not very positive role in the world trade organization But it's increasingly out of touch Out of place and behind the curve ambassador barchewski talked about the world banks doing business report Similarly india finds itself at the rear of the pack when it comes to the world economic forums global enabling report What should be done? We all think that we've spent too much time debating whether there's a problem We had the opportunity to meet with a high level indian delegation in july And i think their apparent mission was to say there's no problem India hasn't imposed trade barriers If we are we're within our rights or it's only affected a few companies and oh, we'll we'll rethink it as that policy overhang Stays with you. There's nothing wrong. There's nothing to see here The good news from my perspective Is that in the past few months we've seen something really miraculous in washington dc democrats republicans And the administration the new york times the wall street journal and the economist all agree There really really is a problem here So maybe we can all agree there's a problem And now figure out how to work on it How do we work to restore trust? How do we work to restore investor confidence? In a country where we very much want to grow our strategic and economic relationship where we know There is a huge and growing middle class But yet companies are increasingly and still more excited about china than india How do we Stop the damage to this partnership? Let me suggest three things first. We need to stop the bleeding India's leaders can be in no doubt after the visit of vice president biden of secretary of state carry That there are serious problems in our economic relationship and the problem though is getting worse Since those visits india has revoked patents for five additional medicines It has announced a forced localization policy for power generation And just today it announced that it wants to raise tariffs on information and communication technology products not covered by The ita remember the ita that ambassador barchevski negotiated back in 1996 I think there's a few products. We all use that are not covered by the ita India must call a halt to all of this immediately It must suspend implementation of these forced localization policies for all sectors and not announce new ones It needs to suspend its moves to deny revoke and compulsory licensing license our innovative medicines and other products We need to cease fire Second we need to quickly initiate a meaningful dialogue between the indian and u.s. governments That also includes indian and u.s. Businesses How do we get manufacturer growing manufacturing growing in india? What are the win-win solutions as I said we at the nam Care deeply about that and we think we have some very good policy ideas Ones that are wto consistent ones that support markets and competition And don't rest on stealing each other's property And finally we need near-term action towards really systemic reforms to eliminate these forced localization policies Not just in name not just a suspension But totally and to really undertake the forms that will strengthen intellectual property protection and enforcement in india India wants this to be its century of innovation It cannot do so with the intellectual property policies and practices It has uh undertaken and it is trying to spread around the world The time for piecemeal approaches with india is done Can't just buy off one industrial sector and hope that the rest will go away Business in the united states is united. Certainly. We are at the national association of manufacturers throughout every sector in our Manufacturing economy. We have also joined with the alliance for fair trade with india That is focused throughout the services and manufacturing areas To turn around india's negative spiral india needs to undertake And with us comprehensive solutions to a level playing field There's going to be lots of excuses. This is too much. India has politics. There's elections coming up India's leaders would do it if only they could there's going to be blame And name calling G you in the united states you undertake bad policies. You're hurting us. You shouldn't be doing that That type of Excuse and blame and sort of pointless tip for tap In place of concrete action is not going to solve anyone's problem and it would be a shame Particularly for india because if this negative spiral Continues india has the most to lose. Yes, we have a very big trade relationship with india We have an 18 billion dollar trade deficit. It is very much a one-way street The u.s. Market is very open to indian products. Our tariffs are low. We have few barriers And in india is the biggest beneficiary of our generalized system of preference program gsp Giving duty-free treatment to its many of its products coming into the united states But we know what us exporters face when they go to india The trade relationship Is a one-way street and in light of all the congressional questions asked ambassador from and the ambassador barshasky noted It's worth asking ourselves How long is that one-way relationship politically sustainable particularly in the face of yet growing discriminatory trade barriers that are hurting manufacturers and businesses here We have a shot And this event could not be more timely president obama the prime minister saying our meeting later this month They can come out with concrete Paths forward through true leadership Can we agree to a ceasefire? Can we get an early date for a real trade policy forum that is focused on finding solutions? Not saying there isn't a problem Can we secure a reasonable both plan for near-term action to address these systemic problems? manufacturers and I would say The wide business community will be watching. Thank you. Thank you linda ray Well, thanks very much rick for putting this together and scott CSIS has done a great service in many areas and I think that this is certainly one of them And i'm very glad to be here today because I believe that this question of the economic relationship is badly in need of a reality check And I think it's for three reasons one. It's the importance of the subject But two it's some of the hysteria that has gripped portions of the washington policy community about the relationships between the united states and india And three because there are much more constructive ways forward than those which are presently being pursued Now on the importance of the relationship A couple of years ago, uh, I put out a book on, uh, us india economic engagement and when the times of india reviewed it They entitled the review.  Unknown governor from a small southern state Is beating the pants off the president of the united states of course that governor was bill clinton and The president was george h.w. Bush and the report Came back the retort came it's the economy stupid And just as the economy was driving that election So the economic relations between the united states and india have been the driver of our ability to cooperate on a myriad of very important areas The united states in india need each other. They need each other to fight terrorism to Take care of the aftermath in afghanistan They need each other In regard to the sea lanes. They need each other on a whole host of energy climate health economic policies Now both All three presidents Barack Obama george w. Bush bill clinton Are on record as declaring That india is a strategic partner of the united states and it's one of the most important relationships Of the 21st century And if these two largest democracies can't be strong supportive friends who can Now on the present situation Granted india has fallen into international economic regression regression in the face of 2014 national elections This is deplorable, but not an unknown phenomenon In our own democracy politicians up for election often compete in support of by-american And other protectionist measures The united states good friend and deputy chairman of the powerful indian planning commission Told us quite plainly In june at the us i b c annual meeting look it's election season nothing's going to happen until that's uh over But it isn't just indian politics that have fostered this regression Let's take the trade policy forum. This is the us tr led forum Which was designated to be the primary Vehicle for meeting and resolving trade issues between the united states and india It hasn't met in three years The last time it was to me Was in january 2012 The indian side wanted to bring up some unpleasant issues such as immigration such as what happens outsourcing unpleasant from a us political perspective And what happened it was postponed again. It still hasn't met You think this is coincidence? I don't think so We both have our problems because we are two great and vibrant democracies now My colleague from nam has talked about the coalition Which was put together To decry india as an outlier To get 170 members of congress on board 40 members of the senate I must say This is not the best and most constructive way forward India has never responded to ganging up and it never will What we ought to do Is look at the ways in which we can make our political rhetoric About strategic partnership About the most important relationship we can make our economic Engagement measures and our ambitions equal to that rhetoric First of all, I think that we need to do is to have a An immediate Commitment not only to negotiating the bit The bilateral investment Treaty but within a framework for achieving achieving a free trade agreement We need to get the trade policy forum back on track With a strong white house interagency mechanism to back this area The three areas most cited by the u.s side protectionist procurement pharmaceutical patent protection and enforcement of media counterfeiting laws are actually three very different problems And the way to make progress is to take these issues and work them separately If there are clear infringements of wto norms, there is a ruled based process for dealing with these impasses Most of all we should use positive initiatives to provide mutual self-interest for resolving trade and investment issues For example, president obama and president and prime minister sing should declare their upcoming september 27 summit A grand energy initiative that will bring together the disparate bilateral programs on us energy Matters and mold them into a vibrant initiative Such an initiative will bring results in economic growth security and protection of the environment This initiative should not only deal comprehensively with the hung up civil nuclear program and a laudable partnership to advance clean energy But also be broadened to include liquefied natural gas exports and infrastructure And to reenergize bilateral clean coal programs Energy aspects of relations with the iran Protection of the sea lanes will be directly affected by such an initiative The united states and india should recognize explicitly the fundamental role of economic engagement as a driver of their relationship And elevate this facet of their relationship to a level commensurate With its importance and their political rhetoric While dealing with economic issues on a consistent and continuous basis Both sides need to be realistic about the delays and inconsistencies that go with democracy The best opportunities for success will be to identify broad based initiatives Such as i've identified in regard to energy That will provide positive frameworks for the use of mutual self-interest to resolve issues Where all else fails the rules based procedures of the wto and bilateral agreements are far preferable To threats and retaliation Thank you ray and thanks to all the panelists Interesting range of discussion that a couple of themes came out of this that seldom come out in washington fora That i want to point out as a as a as a business guy who got dropped in the dc market about 15 years ago The first one is the role of uncertainty in the difficulties From a commercial point of view Bad policy is one problem Uncertainty about bad policy is a worse problem And some of what's going on partly because of the timing of the election Partly because of the implementation of rules and then modification of the rules uh is going on is Uncertainty plays a big role in the tensions involved here And it was interesting to see both in ambassador barchevsky's remarks and the remarks of the panelists how that came out So just an observation the second one that almost never comes up in washington is opportunity cost It's a driving importance to any business decision But it seldom surfaces in the policy environment And one of the things that occurs to me that is happening now and the reason we're in doldrums in the us india relationship is because Look foreign markets are hard india has probably always been a tough place to do business We could ask g they've been a business a hundred years there They can probably tell us some stories about the uh the great days of 1917 and how tough it was then But the the thing is a tough market that's growing at six or seven percent is a very different problem for a business Than a tough market that's growing at four percent Okay, and you calibrate differently. You you you have different degrees of freedom. And so to some extent linda mentioned this once you talked about the The potential for a downward spiral is that some of these problems may be long-standing But we I think it's important to reflect that the current world of slow growth and difficult Macro environment is creating some different calculations in the commercial sector that are causing this to come to prominence So just for those two observations, let me open it up. All of you who have been very patiently listening to all these comments Would like to ask you there are three rules for a question to answer rules for everything in washington If you didn't know the three rules are very simple first wait for the microphone to arrive This is being live webcast. We want to make sure your comments are heard So once you're recognized a microphone will come. Please wait for it second Introduce yourself and identify your organization before you make your question And third what I call the alex trabec rule, which is make sure your question is in the form of a question With those three points, let me open it up to the to the audience Yes, ma'am Hi, I am Diane serr. I'm with larouche. I happen also to be an independent candidate for governor of new jersey My question has to do with energy because I think one of the big Issues is that the united states? I mean it's now the 50th anniversary of the assassination of kennedy Under kennedy. We had the space program. We had I guess eyes and how really started adams for peace we had all of this water management and As people here may be familiar We are promoting a project from the 60s no wapa the north american water and power alliance Which is 38 times the size of the tennessee valley authority Were the united states to be engaged on Developing the most advanced forms of nuclear power including fusion. It seems to me. There's a very vibrant Science sector in india the thorium reactor etc Which really could create a basis for partnership? And I think it's easier to have a partnership if you have a conception of the future And not squabbling over what seemed to be diminishing returns in an era where we're just Printing money, but not really producing anything So my question is would a shift of the united states in the direction Of what kennedy had envisioned? Great projects advancement and nuclear power create the basis for a really productive relationship Thank you. Ray you've worked on the civil nuclear program. I think um The energy area is An area where there's real hope the let's take civil nuclear which Rick and I and some other people in this room worked on for a number of years. It's stuck And it's stuck on a liability issue It should not be beyond the mind of mortal man to be able to come up with insurance ways in which to cut that gory and not and move forward And if we do that then the programs we have in train, particularly whether it be in thorium, whether it be in next generation nuclear Can move forward because there will be an economic incentive there will be a road to to to glory if you will in that regard and this Goes into other facets of energy. The situation has entirely changed the united states in regard to Gas we were gas poor now. We're gas rich the indians want Gas we want to sell it to them We're going sort of in a case-by-case method, but we could be able to do that the point is There are these areas particularly in energy which can be brought together and once you have That kind of interchange going then you have Mechanism and leverage in order to be able To address in negotiations how is a practical matter? You come to agreement. I mean, it's not any secret that the economic Interests are going to are going to drive this. Well, the idea is to create more economic interest So you have a framework in which you can resolve Uh the problems which uh, otherwise you just get hung up on and uh, you can't see beyond Linda if I might just take this Up a level maybe a few hundred thousand feet I think we have to get back to the issue of trust and the loss of trust NAM and many in the business community In 2007 called on the bush administration to negotiate a bilateral investment treaty with india and the other brick countries And have been strongly urging A high standard bit like the ones we have with 40 other countries like the ones we have with about 14 14 of our trade agreement partners like the one we're negotiating in t-tip And we had a very long unfortunate drawn out process by this administration to review the model bit And when the administration finally came out of that in april 2012 It was the indians who pulled away Is a bit is the type of relationship Ray was talking about one that can be done without trust Is it a political deal that we're looking for because I would say as a representative of About 12,000 companies throughout the united states what we care about is growing jobs and growing manufacturing And we don't want to see an agreement That's just a piece of paper. We want to see the rule of law We want to see those basic core principles on property and other fairness protections That are found in some 3000 treaties worldwide if india is not prepared to do that How much of our negotiating resources in the united states are going to be spent on that We want to see a better relationship. I I take raise point on many issues But that's just not going to come by ignoring these issues or trying to denigrate A particular issue as being too small. These are big issues And the members of congress that wrote and the members of congress That raised these concerns before ambassador frohman both before finance and later at wades and means They did that because they're hearing from companies from businesses that are being negatively affected And you've got to take that into consideration Diane very quick very very quick Thank you for your question about energy. In fact, we just sent a coal gasification mission to india last week And it it was very well met if you ask any indian official about energy needs in india They say yes to everything Because they are in such a deficit position and again when you start talking about infrastructure and the desire to bring manufacturing Without those core fundamentals. It doesn't happen. So the answer is yes to everything now Interestingly ray and I had an audience with the chief minister of the state of gujarat The chief minister modi who has actually now been identified as the the party had leading the bjp party in these elections And he we had westinghouse with us as part of this delegation when we had this audience And he was very candid and said, you know, again, they have they have responsibilities to the electorate And the issue of fukushima was front and center How do you give the public a sense of confidence after they watched what happened in japan? So that's been a a setback as you might imagine as it relates to the public embracing nuclear specifically Yes to lng and it's in fact, it's one of the top talking points that you'll hear from indian officials From the embassy or visiting from deli their great desire to to now import our lng and Great intentions for us to be able to export as such solar also You know has tremendous potential in india. There are some issues there. We actually have a wto complaint before With regard to some local requirements with india So that that's a bit of a test case as it relates to some of the Frustrations and concerns that linda has mentioned regarding bit linda also mentioned And linda is an expert on bit that's that she really is i mean we've always turned to her for this And she's right to express some frustration It took three years for the u.s. Government to complete its model bit So when we do push the indians about a bit they're they're quick to remind us that it took three years for the us to get it done And they're in the process. They have a number of bits They have a number of fta's most of them would probably not meet the standards that we would expect They're in arbitration on some of these things However, the minister of commerce and on sharma at the ceo forum in july announced again Enthusiasm for moving forward with bit negotiations and i would expect Something to be part of the deliverable slash talking points when the prime minister and the president meet next week late next week Thank you. There's a question here. Yes, sir Thank you very much. My name is abu saleh shareef. I run a small Not-for-profit organization in washington dc called us india policy institute. I'm just one year in washington dc I'm an economist Worked almost 30 years in india In a place called national council of applied economic research So i have many comments here because i find please just ask you a question. Yeah, but The reason why i have that is because there is no Speaker from the india side I would have wished that you would have scheduled somebody from the indian perspective And that is the reason why i have too many questions But however, I want to reduce my questions to three or four only questions. Could you ask one place? Yeah The one thing is in this whole discussion the linkages with the economic indicator of india is missing We need to know when we develop economic relationships How the recipient country in this case i'm thinking india is a recipient country How that impact the economic growth, you know, not only sectorally, but also nationally at the state level The clue which i want to give to today's audience today is india You're talking of trust India is now not Uh one Decision-making body in the national government every state is a decision-making body Although one of the chief ministers was invoked. We have 30 states. So there are 30 chief ministers to be You know negotiated. So i'm a little bit afraid that All the people who go to india talk to only moody and i see i smell a rat there So what is important is economic stability is the most important thing for india to grow today If economy if there is no political stability india is not going to be on the growth path again So we are very worried that the economic decision-making is not dealing With the political decision-making at in india. We are still learning The last point which i want to make is there is a huge opportunity here To develop a kind of information flow a real-time information flow We all people think imf and world bank does it In fact in my judgment, they don't and there is a very strong need for the group like this to build up a strong Real-time information system to take and debate the discussions today happen. Thank you Thank you. Next question. Yes, sir First of all, my name is ajay kumar. I am for secretary commerce in the indian embassy here I first i would like to compliment the csis and all the speakers and panelists for arranging this discussion and Certainly, this is an important like we should always continue doing the reality check for a bilateral relationship and We have certainly moved way beyond our in our relationship And here most of the panelists have actually Good thing is that they have actually talked about a number of ways to move forward this Strategic relationship Some of the people have certainly talked about The way energy cooperation, but sir, could you get your question? Yeah, I'm coming to that question. So Uh, like the energy cooperation can certainly boost this relationship to another level of achievements So I would like to ask all of the panelists that how do you all see The cooperation in the field of high technology sector, which can uh, which can actually certainly boost this relationship To another level. So, uh, I would like to These panelists to actually reflect on that. Thank you Thank you question about high tech and the collaboration and cooperation in between the u.s. And uh, india sectors Yeah, I'll be happy to start. Um, I think that uh, is No secret that this has to be a driver in the relationship. Um, we, um, I have a tremendous opportunity To capitalize on the relationship which, uh, which already exists And uh, unfortunately, I think that the the h1b visa Equalization issues are Not being handled within the framework of The strong self-interest that both sides have To advance it, uh, I have Often pointed to what ambassador barshavsky Negotiated and I helped on a little bit the information technology agreement, which in 1996 Was negotiated india Join much to the surprise of others and it has been a tremendous Success in terms of lowering tariffs for exports of the united states and going forward And we need to use that as an example in regard to it and be able To broaden it out further But that won't be done in a vacuum and I would hope that These visa issues Would be would be addressed in that same sort of initiative I guess from our perspective While there has been Some cooperation and certainly the ita. I was there in singapore when ambassador barshavsky completed it was a great driver It is Shocking and and disappointing if india is really turning away from that and certainly they've not been one of the big supporters in the effort going on Of what remains of the doha development agenda for the bali wto ministerial on expanding Ita but now sort of saying well, we might raise tariffs on products not covered back in 1996 is concerning The localization on information communication technologies You know procurement is very different as as dianne was saying The united states yeah, we have our by america policies But the united states was also one of the founding members of the wto Agreement on general Government procurement india hasn't even bothered to join We have with the other signatories to the wto a much more open and fulsome government procurement relationship A lot of it on these very types of products and yet india is moving backwards They've moved backwards on procurement, but worse than all of that is what dianne said They're moving bad. They tried to move back on commerce. So having a private company and telling that private company You have to buy indian the united states doesn't do that We've not done that That's a clear violation of the basic gat rule that that we all agreed to 65 years ago And then i would say the other big concerning factor was the one that ambassador barshowski talked about which is in the green energy and space where india's own policy pronouncements and certainly its actions in international organizations and in things like the climate control negotiations Is seeking to just have Countries like the united states give over our technology compulsory licensing green green energy Technology that doesn't give us the trust and going back to to where i began We need that greater trust if we in the broader us are really going to Figure out a way to move forward with india to reverse its spiral I think ray and linda have touched on the important ones You might also talk about defense and technology transfers there, you know This this economic relationship has really been evolving for only 22 years if you think about when the market's actually opened If you look at from a strategic policy standpoint and uh geopolitical alignments You could you could also point to fairly recent history when we're talking about developing a trusting relationship As it relates to relationships around the world including Alignments with the soviet bloc So to a degree we we have to at least acknowledge how far we've come But we can we have to be vigilant about our expectations in this day and age and What we we do expect from each other ajabanga is very fond of saying our chairman who is the ceo of mastercard Worldwide and who's the chairman of the us india business council Almost invariably whether it's with the finance minister, whether I know it will be with the prime minister when We have a dinner arranged for some of our member companies and the prime minister next week It's certainty. It's transparency and its predictability Those are really the guideposts that are necessary in any relationship And we constantly talk about those Those as are you know that literally that's the horizon. It has to be those three things The working toward it on a daily basis is what becomes so complicated And that's whether it has to do with politics, whether it has to do with people Whether it has to do with differing points of view depending upon whether you're in india or whether you're here in the united states But that's what we fundamentally work toward when we try to resolve all of these issues and some will be easier to resolve as I say The preferred market access fourth localization where there's been movement with the indian government on tax issues where there's been movement with the indian government On intellectual property rights, especially as it relates to pharma where there's much more of an entrenchment And that's just part of the daily basis. It's what you know, we do it's why we exist here Is to work those problems through for the betterment of both our population here in the united states And to raise the quality of life for every citizen in india Just a free thought uh india benefited magnificently from ita one I mean there's a clear We look at the capture of value in the high technology sector India and the united states were the two by far the biggest beneficiaries of the information technology agreement That ought to provide convening power for india and united states to lead an ita two It's not happening. I'll leave it up to you to decide why but just did i'm stated. Uh, yes or dan Thank you scott. I'm danna flairty with the national foreign trade council You all have identified a host of issues and problems in the economic relationship with india Given the meeting upcoming between president Obama and prime minister sing if you were writing obama's talking points, what would how would you prioritize these these many issues? What's the way into this debate?  I mean that's just applicable across the board And and it's not limited to just economics. I mean, it's really about the fundamentals of the relationship I mean, we know that they're going to get into specifics We certainly expect that the prime minister is going to raise both the immigration issue and and and likely totalization This issue of collection of social security funds that are never refunded That and and we know in all probability Well, we know that you know the major issues that the administration will bring up are the ones that we've been talking about here The force localization the ipr issues all of those, you know the taxation issues all the things that are you know creating that kind of Of frustration that you know has capital hill now weighing in specifically with the administration So I think you can pretty much write the script the question is You know, where can they find some common ground? And you know on the indian government side with regard to pharma ipr again in writing the script I'm anticipating that the pushback is going to be there are there are people who have no access to health care How is it fair to hold? life-saving drugs from sick individuals now the pushback there should be and the indian government itself has more Responsibility to be working on and providing a system of health care for its citizens And not ignoring the lack of hospitals the lack of you know qualified health care professionals But that that's the one that I think is going to be Is going to be the most contentious in terms of Taking the indian government feeling that it has a moral obligation to its citizenry When it knows that certain life-saving drugs are there and the u.s. government believing in You know the fairness of open markets And and perhaps the indian government not acknowledging How incredibly generous the pharmaceutical companies have been with a lot of its programs to push drugs out to the poor And to provide lower prices in emerging markets But that's the one that I think is going to be the stickiest And then there's the perennial favorite, which is the civil nuclear Liability issue and I know that there are early works agreements in That are taking place right now with at least one of the two u.s. Companies that have been promised a location however It appears that there's a parliamentary action that has to take place To get past that liability issue and now you're into this political silly season where there's just no possibility that Anything that contentious is likely to be brought forward Plenty to talk about I'm sorry. This is a big complicated relationship with a big complicated country And as a result as usual we run out of time and so apologies to those of you who didn't get your questions answered Some people may be able to spend time one on one after the fact But please first let me thank you for coming today to thank the viewers of the webcast And please join me in thanking our panel for their contributions