So we'll start with the financial review. Mr. Ports, what are you doing? The one that says balance sheet? Starts with the balance sheet, yes. So questions? I was going to say, I can kind of summarize what you're seeing here, if you want. The first page is the balance sheet that delineates the different cash accounts. I think it was last year, it might have been the year before it was requested that even though the fire department keeps their books on a cash basis to put the loan, any outstanding loan balances on there. So that's what the 154 is, the loan on the pumper and the balance at the end of this video. But that's not in accordance with cash basis that doesn't belong there, but it's there just because it was requested that it be there. Is that the only loan? That's the only loan, the other. That's outstanding, yes. The next two pages is the profit and loss by class. So the first column is the ambulance, second column is the fire department, and then the total. So that's giving you the overall view. And then there's one page, which is the budget to actual of the ambulance, which I think the profit and loss by class is interesting, but the budget to actual really gives you what was planned, what actually happened that gives you the better picture of each of the two different classes. So you've got the ambulance and then the next two pages of the fire department. And you can see the variances on those reports. So that's kind of the summary of what's here. Do you have questions or comments? So this is the fiscal year, it looks like. Correct. Yeah, this is the fiscal year. So you transferred into the contingency, okay? What about you? Is that a member of the East Bumpers? I think we just swiped his financial pieces and noticed that was right here. Right here? Yeah, I think so. I just gave him mine, because I brought mine. You gave him the pictures too? Oh, the picture? The picture, yeah. Okay, is that good? Yes, the 17,000 was the total transferred into the contingency. At the end of the fiscal year. Well, it's done the month after each month closes, basically. So as the ambulance revenues come in and the direct ambulance expenses come out, the board votes on the transfers to contingency or capital based on what the balance in the contingency account is and the formula that's agreed to in the agreement. So that's offset by the 14,000. I went out to pay for the ambulance. Yeah, I see the contingency is up to the $30,000. Any other questions? So on the net ordinary income on the ambulance, so you're negative the 10,000, to say? Right, so that's because we carried over that reserve fund from last year. I remember we changed from the annual to quarterly and there was a $10,000, that was from the insurance. So that reserve money we put towards the end of the salary. You can see that's the exact line number there, the salary, some reserves, so if you look at the states on the salary. 10,000, right. So that essentially, that doesn't show is cash above because it's a reserve and it's not an income. So essentially, no matter what we did, we would be 10,000 behind because we didn't have that in there. So we applied it from the reserve rather than from the income. Okay. That's clear. If you look at the budget. I see it's the same figure. Yeah, it's the same figure. So we put that line in for salary, said, okay, we'll take the 10,000 we had leftover from a year before. We'll apply it to the salary line. Got it. But the problem is it doesn't show in the income above. Yes. And so therefore it's always gonna be a deficit. Yeah. Because it will never show up for the income didn't come in. It didn't come in as income as other reserves. Right, from the reserve. So even though it's 10 there, it's paid. Yeah. Right, but you didn't end in the negative. We did. The 10,000. No, the 10,000 is not a negative, it's just the expenses versus the income. If you look up above it. Yeah. Under transfer from contingency to operations, that's the overage that we had to pay out of our contingency. 8,000. 8,000 dollars to cover our over expenditures in the ambulance side. And if you look in fire it's 9,000. Yeah. To the total of 18,000. Yeah. From contingency to operating. This is just a general question for Don more than anybody. Why couldn't the reserve use be shown as an income item? So that it. It's hard to lay it out. It has, so I need a balanced entry in order to, so if I recognize it as income, that's a credit to talk my language. And I need a corresponding debit. If I, the only place to hit is your equity at the beginning of the year. So if I credit your income and I debit your equity, then when we put the side by side, your equity doesn't trace from one year to the next. So it's, which is much more problematic for me. But it might make more sense for you. The problem goes back to the fact that this is easy to do when we're sitting here and you or Toby are here to say something. When you're doing this in a vacuum, these don't make sense. So the one thing I will say is on the budget to actual for ambulance, you'll see that the 10,000 is a budgeted deficit. And so that's because you're using your already existing reserves. No, I get it. It's already been income somewhere else. It can't be income twice. But if you go back and look at this later or try to explain it to somebody, it's like. Yeah. I mean, the point, the basic is you budget it. They budgeted a $10,000 deficit and they're showing a $10,000 deficit on the ambulance. So, which if you. It's covered by a reserve 10,000 I had from the, because the insurance payment changed from an annual payment to a quarterly payment. So we had that money carried over. And it's, it's not revenue. It's just an accounting, no, it's not revenue. It's an accounting thing really. Right. Definitely not revenue. That's why it doesn't make any sense. I think, so if you look on the page it's for your page number four, budget versus actual ambulance. And you start at the top and it says budget. And we go down there. So we had a budget of 318,000. And then if you look at the bottom, the total expense in the budget was 329. So essentially right there, there is the $10,000 deficit that we budgeted in the year. So it's on page four, the second column. And at the bottom of the second column. Oh, it's not labeled page. It's the fourth page. Oh, it's not labeled page four. Oh, that's so clear. So count it, count four pages gone. The one I sent you had the numbers, I think. Okay, yes. But I didn't translate that over to this. So budget versus actual ambulance. Second column under budget. If you look at the bottom line, it says minus 10,836 cents. That's where it shows up. That's the budgeted deficit. So we made a budget that was not really supported. So that's where it shows up. And again, we're following Layla's information. The problem remains that our budget, which is the one that we were voting off of, is not this budget. It didn't have a deficit. So again, when the treasurer is trying to make sense of this, he can't. Without having that inside information. Well, I'll sit down with him then, and let him know. So we go back to page one, which is actually page one, the chapter. That's the balance sheet. That's the balance sheet, your first page, yeah. Yeah, I got it.  The first page of your package. That's the balance sheet. So we're good on that. The second page. He is profit and loss by class. Yeah, got it. And that shows everything that came in and went out. And all the totals throughout the entire year. But it doesn't show whether we made our budget estimates or not. So then. Well, I assume you didn't, if you transferred money to the continuously. Right, so we were over budget in both. Right, right. So, just $18,000. Dispatching was over by $10,000. Right, and the reason for that was we didn't get the bill for last year's last payment until after July 1st, so there's actually five payments of dispatch this year, as opposed to the four that we normally get. That's why dispatch is over. And. So you got one, you got a fifth one. You got a fifth. You got a fifth year. Right, well, it should have been there before June 30, and it came after that. So we paid it. A year before. Yeah, it was five the year before. Yeah, a year before. The bookkeeping is over by two brands. And the bookkeeping is because we had Layla in here to help us develop this QuickBooks report so that you guys can actually have consistent numbers month to month. So essentially, the reports are generated from QuickBooks and we can't fudge them or screw them up like we had before. All you did? Well, every time we tried to make the numbers work they never lined up, so. Same, right. And insurance is over like $20,000 or $37,000. This is ambulance, this is fire, this is the total. So the budget is the second of the last page. Right, because we don't know what comparing it. So when you're looking at profit and loss, it just gives you the total. It doesn't tell you what had been budgeted. You have to go to budget versus actual. This is the actual budget. Profit and loss budget versus actual. Right. That shows you what your budget is and what's over. What's under. Correct. Still some of the estimates. There was an insurance increase. Yeah. So firefighting supplies, 231%. You had, for firefighting supplies, you had now what those were, but I know we talked about those being over budget. Probably that was the SCDA. There was two debt ground monitors for debt guns. So what? There's ground monitors.  You set them up on the ground for fire suppression purposes. We'll have to close this blinds, Bruce. What's that? We'll have to close the blinds. Yeah. It's freezing in here. Is there any way to turn it off?   Thanks for that. Thank you. We were doing you the inquisition, you know. You was already back to the table. I'd like to talk to you again if you're taking the long list. If you're taking the long list. If you're taking the long list. If you're taking the long list. Any other questions on budget over, Bruce, you're at 419.  It's on the last page, question that's last page, page six. What's the title on the top of it? It's the profit and loss budget versus actual fire. Okay. And you're into capital activity. His eyes went straight to that unbudgeted holiday baskets. Yeah, I was just looking at that, what is that? That's money to get in, right? That's what that costs us to provide 12 families at Thanksgiving and 14 families at Christmas with food and... How's that now? There was 20 families, there was 35 kids this year at Christmas time. So his question wasn't on the purpose but the fact that it's in capital activity. Obviously it's not a capital cost. They ended up not being enough donation revenue to support the whole thing. So why would that not be an unbudgeted expense and come out of contingency? We can do that if it's, yeah. I mean the money's... I mean it's not a capital expense, that's all. That's where he was coming from. Right. Yeah, I mean we can just reclassify it so it's contingency expenses. Bottom line, it comes from the same insurance revenue as far as the fund. Boy, is that a slippery slope. So the capital expense trucks, is that the payment you make for the rescue too? Yeah, that's the annual expense, yeah. You know Don's personal opinion is all this stuff ought to be showing in the budget. Even if it's an unbudgeted expense, it should be showing above the line, not in one of the special categories. And that one just cover, I'm gonna run a little harder. You'll be getting a phone call. Yeah, well however you guys wanna handle it, I mean essentially we provide that service and we're trying to find a way to pay for it and donations don't cover it. The alternative is not to do it. Or the alternative is the budget for it which would be the more accurate. We can certainly do that in the future. But again, that goes to the tax payers. The talent show, the talent show. Well it goes to the taxpayers no matter what. So it's better to be honest up front than to hide it as a capital expense. Obviously the boards did not agree to pay $10,000 for holiday baskets. And that's a fair thing that should have been a problem. But it didn't cost the tax payers. It came from Anvil's Revenue. Oh well. But if the towns are saying they wanna support us as a budget item, otherwise we're looking at the possibility we may not be able to do it if we're not gonna be able to create enough revenue anymore for donations. I think the idea is we just wanna have everything right up front so we can see. Right, but if you guys want a program like that to be put into the budget, you have to let us know that information, because it was never a budgeted item. It was always an accessory item done through donations that have been supported through community projects. So it wasn't anything that had to be covered. So all the other years that this was done, there was never a need to take money. It was always a big donation. It came from donations either it came in specifically through that or donations which came in otherwise for the fire department from different events that occurred through the year. So this was the first time this ever happened. That's correct. And the size of it almost doubled at Christmas time. And I think what Don or Bruce redone is saying is that this is a contingency expense, not a capital expense. But we can recode that, that's fine. It's not a problem. But I think two different. But it's better to know up front for the boards that we're gonna make this expense than to have it come out of contingency. It certainly shouldn't come out of capital. I guess we need to know what you guys' pleasure is on that. Do you want us to put it as a budget item? I'd say so. It comes out of, yeah, it would have to be in the budget. It should be in the budget. It should be in the budget, because that also- No question. Right. Yeah. Well in the past it wasn't because of the donations but I covered it. That we as a fire department received would handle it. This is the first time that this has grown to this status. So we will fix this to a contingency instead of a capital expense. And if you want in the future, we will put a line item in the budget that says holiday baskets and we'll put a ballpark figure down there and if- Fair enough. And then if we wanna stand up and be screwed and cut it out of the budget, we can. Good for you guys. But we know what we're doing. And again, so this just happened. So we couldn't have predicted this. We couldn't have put it in. This is an experiential change. Yeah, that's fair. So therefore we hear your message and we'll certainly put it in as a line item in the future. And then when you get the donations in. They can offset that line item. We're fine with that. You wanted to say something, Colin? No, I was just gonna bring up the point that Toby just made that it was not an expected expense. Right. So they couldn't have budgeted it. Right, but we can now. Yes. But they could have chosen not to do it. Yes. And that's really the board's choice for these kind of expenses, not the fire department's choice. I understand. So. But I think we have to acknowledge that something changed in this go round. And we're gonna fix it. Sounds good. Yeah, thanks. Okay, what's the next question on that? That's the last page. That's the last page. We skip to the last page. Don, you have any more questions or comments? The comment is the general one I gave Toby. He's gonna get a call because again, there's a couple of things. The holiday baskets are the best example. He continues to push for the things to be above the line and not be down below. So you don't wanna clean up stuff that happened during the year. Below the line. You want it in the budget showing in the. Right, as much as you possibly can, right? So one of the other categories that pushed the budget up over, so you had to use a contingency fund. The dispatch service, right? Was one big one. That was pretty much the total fire department over. Was it 9,000? It was like 8,900 or whatever. Right, so that's pretty much the case. Pretty much that bit it, right. But on the flip side there, you only get three bills for the next year. No, no. There were three bills in the prior year. You got three years, yeah, three before that. We had three years before. Well, I'm sorry. On the ambulance, it was over, right? Here at 9,000? Right, and I just did a quick look at one of the line items, the office computer and software. And there are a couple of misappropriate charges that ended up in there. One was for a medical device for almost a thousand bucks that should have been in a different line item. So there was another one for $500 that just were miscalculated. So that line should not be over more than about $1,000. It's 8,600 right now. Right. And then training was up a lot. Right, so we had a couple of three people taking EMT training, so it was like $2,500. Right. We did several large-scale trainings here as well. Right. And that cost you guys money? Yeah, we had to hire a couple of instructors to come in to do it. And the vehicle repair is the engine, the motor, and... No, that's... The motor is in capital. The motor went to capital and we ran it over there. That's just regular service without including the motor. So profit and loss budget versus actual ambulance vehicle repair is... $7,000. So those are just... An ambulance, that's just on the ambulances. $9.1% of budget, $591% of budget. I think that's a different line, Gene. It's hard to see. You know, that's the training line. $179. Yeah, the training line was $591. The vehicle repair is the $179. Right, there you go, okay, I'm sorry. That's not that big a figure, really. That's just the two ambulances. That's just two ambulances. That's pretty good, actually. But you didn't budget that hell of a lot. You probably... That was probably off the near before, the $4,000. The changes from year to year? Yeah, yeah.  Is that... Is that just regular? Right, so... So why does it say other? There's the $40,000 that was covered from Marshfield. There's the $10,830 that was covered from Reserves. And then there's everything else, basically. So it just is the way that QuickBooks presents it. But it's the regular salary. Where's Paige looking at? I'm looking at Paige, well... The annual... The profit and loss budget versus actual... Oh, okay, I'm on the same page. Go ahead. About... Are you looking at the salary? Okay, I got it. Yeah, halfway down. Yep, yep. But essentially the line item in the budget that you guys approved is the $180,000 in which we hit $182,000, remember that line item? So essentially... So it's over... Pretty close. Over, yeah. By $2,000. Yeah, I mean... Right on that. Close term, yep. I mean, budgets, they're high. I mean, it's a guess. It's a best guess estimate of what you're gonna spend. I mean, your vehicle repairs for the fire department are down by $4,000, so... You know, the one who's kind of a watcher here. Yeah. Well, you move a newer vehicle in on the fire side and you have older vehicles falling apart on the end of the road. So... Well, just more maintenance as long as they fall in. That's a negative comment. Well, if you want to ask one of our patients... If you just say more maintenance on the older vehicles... If you want to ask one of our patients about why the door opened up while we were driving into the hospital, we'll talk about it. She needs some WD-40 on her. It's called a bungee cord. Oh, it's not good. Okay, so... What other questions do we have on this? Mm-hmm. Do we have questions on the overview side? Bruce, can you have Doug for his questions into written format for us? You don't want that. It'll be longer than this. That's okay. You might be okay. You've got to decide whether it's coming to you or going through Toby. Well, that's how he does it now. But I know we hand them off written to Layla. She's able to read them and see them as well. It'd be interesting to see Don's questions. Okay, Ann Beltramanou, FY19. That's a different page, right? So... Oh, it would be... This is the collection. 83... Almost 84% of the questions. Can you tell? Ann Beltramanou's billing is sourced by women, is that it? Full of time. Is that right, Jay? So this is a report that we get from our billing agent. And essentially, we report to her what the income is. Sometimes we get the positive impact that she doesn't see. So there's a little bit of a discrepancy between what shows up on the financial versus this number. So essentially, this is 136, 837 that we collected. Okay, it'll get the last column. The last column. That's the total monies that we collect according to the billing for her numbers. If you go back to insurance revenue on the budget versus actual, it's 140,000. So that $4,000 was a couple of payments that came in after she closed her books on the year. Okay. But the money ended up in our bank account before the end of the year, but not reported to her. So that's why it's... That's why it's not in here, but it's in here. Well, no, that's why there's two different numbers. Because she closed her books, and she didn't get the last two payments on the... Where's the 140 that you're back in? It's back in the... Oh, okay. It's gone to sheet. It's back here under insurance revenue. So that obviously is another dawn issue. And that's another part of that phone call he's got for you. So there were essentially a couple of payments on the 27th and 28th that did get through to the billing clerk for her number. Processed them on her side. So this information comes from the billing clerk who essentially sees the discounts and sees the receipts. Is that a company or... No, it's a person that works in Berry City Fire. A Berry... I thought it was Berry City Fire. So another dawn question was, when these numbers aren't lined up, does this number become, next year's, this number? Does it become the number that shows the whole year? I think it should because of a couple of days overlap that they're never gonna quite line up because I would have... No, you can understand it. Is it this number or this number that's gonna get carried into this chart next year? This gets carried into the chart. Okay, so it'll stay the same. It'll stay the same. It'll still be all. This is her report and I keep it consistent. I just wanna make sure you see the discrepancy between the financials versus the billing side. So when Tom reconciles your audit, he's still not gonna be able to use this. This will never line up. Right, it's really just to show you how the collection rate is proceeding. That was just a question, that's not a comment. Okay, so it looks like you've billed a lot more than you ever had before. 240,000, the year before, 167,000. We've never been up to 200,000. Correct. We billed a lot. It's like a little bit more. Correct. That's it. It's all about how many times we went out and you'll come to that in the next report. Yeah. It's just the ratio has gotten worse, but I mean, you're $100,000 under. We'll also notice that there's $77,000 of adjustments. Yeah, that's huge. And a lot of that relates to the last two columns is 29 and 9.7, that's over 30% of what we do. We only collect less than 50% of what we billed. On the Medicare, Medicare. Medicare, Medicare. Yeah, that part of it. So the higher that number, those numbers percentage-wise are over here, the less we collect. Yeah.  So that percentage of 29.28, is that the amount of carries that were Medicare? Transports that were Medicare patients. Okay, so that was almost a third. Correct. Of the patients that you carried for Medicare. And then you also had almost 10% of Medicare. So 29 and 9.7 is almost 40% of what we do, we can only collect 50% or whatever the ratio is. Whatever the ratio is, right. Medicaid's less, is even less than Medicare, as far as what we can collect. That's a pretty high ratio, almost 40%. We're dealing with elderly population. That's where we go to our medical events. We have no control over that. No, no, I'm not saying you have any control. And I'm sure every other ambulance service is dealing with the exact same issue. Yeah. In Vermont. Medicare and Medicaid is a set rate, no matter where you are. No, I was just thinking of the percentage of Medicare and Medicaid patients versus younger patients or whatever, Vermont's high. I'm a Medicare patient, if you take me. Yeah, I just, wow, that's just a big figure. It is a big figure, 40%. Wow. Yeah, the legislatures. Yeah. Again, about the lobby. There's a big push right now to try to make adjustments to the Medicare and Medicaid adjustments. It's all set. And you only do that through a legislature? It's all set through the federal government. Well, Medicaid is. Medicare is set through the federal's. But the Medicaid portion is determined by the state. Which usually takes you back up here, the federal. So that's the collection rate. That's specific to the law, right?  What's that? Yeah, they have to change the rate that they provide services for. And it's structured through medical oversight. All right. So any questions on the FY19 budget revenues? Any much revenues? Any questions? So there were a lot more carries, I guess we'll see that. Yeah, yeah, down towards the bottom a little bit. Call a lot of them. Any questions on the updated, the budget updates for FY20, or where we are currently? There's not much in today, we're only one month. We're doing really well right now. Thank you for your checks. Yeah, the updated capital plan, any discussions on the capital plan? Where is the capital plan? I didn't know. Yeah, we didn't see that. Yeah, I don't really saw that. We've got the one from January. Yeah. Oh, we did. Wherever you want. I've got the one from January. Yeah. I brought it with me. I don't have it. I can make copies of that one. It's the same one I brought to you guys in May. It's the same numbers. Well, I didn't keep it from you. Well, here. I think he's going to go print it. We should have copied that. We can just take copies of that one and make them. Isn't that what he's doing? He's doing it for you. Yeah. Was that with our minutes from last night? Oh, that's from that white board presentation. Yeah. Wish me luck. Wish me luck. OK. OK. Understood. So this is not, that's an estimated revenue for 2019. This was approved in January of 2018. So that's way early in the year? Yes. But I'm just wondering if we hit that, if we hit the target on 115, on the estimated yearly revenue. For FY19? Yes. Yeah, if you go back to your other sheet. Right. It should be in there. We received this at the April 11th. So the FY 2019 total receipt was about received 136, 837. OK, but you take out the some expenses that are left. I do. Right. What was that contribution? What was the expenses? Oh, OK. So that's a gross revenue than 115? Not mine. So it's expensive to take off the top. Right. So if you, yeah. So if you look at it. So you're well above. You collect as 136. Yeah. And then if you go back to your other budget sheet, it will tell you what your expenses were. The profit and loss is the best. Right. Yes. Yeah. OK. Down in the bottom of the ambulance, it says unbudgeted defib loan.  Unbudgeted paramedic. Yes. And then the patient overpay for $24,900. Oh, so those are expenses of $24,000? Correct. They were taken off the top. OK. So the figure of the 115, that doesn't figure of taking anything off. That's an estimated number. That's gross. It's annual, right? Gross, OK. Right. OK. $24,000. $24,000. So you did pretty well. Yeah. It looks like. So I mean, Roger's speaking, I guess. Yeah. You know. 136 versus 115 was your budget. I mean, we've never collected more than, you know. That's what we are for ratios. Yeah. Right. But versus your budget, you did well. Right. As far as the income goes. Because those are like your paramedic expense. Yeah. You know, the defib loan, we know what that is. Yeah.  We don't know what those are from month to month. No. So that was $24,000 versus the 136. Pick them that up and we get $112,000. Yeah. Don't go by those numbers. Go by these numbers. Just like that. That's that page story. Well, okay. Got it. Thank you. Yep. And this bottom-line capital limit is much better than it has been in the past. What was contributed to capital? Right. It was about the X-15. Right. Because they're a way above the $20,000 above the budget again. Okay. If I did 115, it's just a 136. So the contribution to capital is what we want. That's what I said to you. Got it. They got that. Yes, sir. There you go. Okay. Okay. So. I've got my own. Right. There you go. So if you want to go over the capital page. Then we all have the same page. Yeah. No pages. So these are all the vehicles that we own. Yep. Total replacement cost of over $2 million. The current use cost is $990,000 of the vehicles that we have sitting out here in the garage and up on the hill. We are currently paying a loan on Rescue 2, $53,000 a year. And we were looking to replace Rescue 4 in 2020, which is coming up. We just finished paying off the SCBA loan of $14,900. Which one again? Don't we rescue two years looking to replace? No, Rescue 4 land bills. The one that we just blew the motor. Next year in 2020. But you bought the motor now. We did. So the current age, it says six. Right. Six years old. So we want to replace it in the next fiscal year. It's seven years old. Right. But understand that it's a two part vehicle. It has a 1999 body on it. And a 2012 chassis. So what we repair almost all the time is the body. Over and over and over and over again. I thought that was the one you refurbished. Well, we took the body off a used ambulance that we got from Montpelier. Yeah. That was a 1999 truck. He had a refurbished one. But that was already mounted on that road. That box is 25 years old, 26 years old. It wasn't that one you had refurbished in? One of them. Yes. And it's constantly falling apart. That's why the ambulance repair bill was so high. And it continues to be high. Is that the one where the door came open? It was kind of expensive wasn't it? It was 100,000. To refurbish? It was 110,000 I think to do the whole project. That included buying the chassis. Switching the box over. So in terms of what actually was refurbished on the box, there was not much refurbished on the box. That box is original condition. The chassis is the one you bought in Pennsylvania. What is that chassis for? That's the one you bought in Pennsylvania. What are we going to buy? Rescue 2. Rescue 2 is bought in New York. Hold on. There's two ambulances. Rescue 3 and Rescue 4. Got it. Both of them are used. They're not new. The other truck that we bought most recently that we're paying the loan on is the big truck. I know that truck. That's out of New York. That's out of New York. Rescue 2 is the big heavy rescue. Rescue 3 and 4 are the ambulances. Yeah. The one you bought in Virginia was which one? Rescue 3. Rescue 3. The one that Greg went down and drove back. Right? I know it was one. No, that one was delivered on a flatbed, wasn't it? He went down and tried it out. Greg brought one down. I remember this conversation. He said it was great. That came on a flatbed. Oh, that did. That came in the wintertime on a flatbed. Greg went down to look at it to make sure it was worthy. He waved a drool off his belt and said it was brand new. He'll go look again. That was Rescue 3. Rescue 4 is the one you're looking to replace. That's right. And that's a 2012. But again, that's the chassis. Right, working part. But you put a new motor in the 2012. We have, yes. I think it'll make a big fine track for you. No, it won't. It's got a brand new motor in it. Forget it. No bueno.  We're looking to replace that in 2022. Okay. And all the other numbers are just estimates. So, essentially, we estimate that we make $100,000 to $15,000 a year. This year we made $140,000. So, it changes, but that's just the number that we throw in this plan. Okay. Maybe once expenses, that's what we do with the paramedic billing, the billing, et cetera. This year is 25,000. It's fluctuating. And so, in years past, and next year you've actually asked us to take $18,000 out of that for operating expenses. And that's figured into this plan as well. So, that's how those numbers are all lined up. And any of those things can change. The income can change. The expenses can change. And you can decide that we don't need to take the insurance revenue for operations. So, however we decide to look at the budget is. But that's the basic premise of this plan. Right. But, it's actually, the 115 is actually 136 or 140. You couldn't. I mean, when I did this, we were not making more money. I don't understand. The 89 this year actually was 98. Yeah, 100. 98. Okay. For 2019. Yes. But again, this is just a plan. It's not a reflection. This is what was planned. And if you go back to the sheet that we show collection rates, it's all about 115,000 on average. This year was a particularly busy year. Any other questions on capital? Hearing none. All right. Any questions on the rescue for motor replacement? I haven't quite a while but we talked about it. What did it happen? It was the fall. Last fall, yeah. But it was in FY19. Yeah. We talked about it a couple of times. Well, I guess that just means I've gone to a few meetings. All right. I'm going to try to do a bus accident training with the school system in August. Yeah. Following up from the incident we had in Calis last year. Can I stop you? Ty, I'm sorry. Can we back up to the line of both that one? To the actual Oh, sorry. Sorry, I missed the rescue for replacement. So rescue for replacement. That's up for you. You have some pictures? We have better pictures. Sorry. Why are we looking at this now? It's on the agenda. You see it says rescue for replacement. Why are we looking now? Because we have an ambulance replacement that's due this fiscal year and the budget in the capitol plan is for 225,000 for rescue for rescue for the rescue for currently experiences quite a few electrical issues. I mean just the other day we had to pull it out of service. The things that just got repaired it's just the cost and you know with the doors and parts because of the older box on the chassis Williston has a truck that's available for us that we've looked at we feel that it's a good truck for replacement wise. It's not our first choice with we prefer to replace it with a new truck just for the longevity the thing is this truck is 10 years old has about 78,000 miles on it is in good condition. They've been the single owners of it and they contacted us with it and they're asking 20,000 for it They probably see a lot less back roads than what we do Is it a four wheel drive? Is it a diesel? Is it a diesel? 2009? 2010? It's passed the series where there's problems with it It's passed the mark where the Ford had the problems with that new motor The Ford had the problems It wasn't when they first came out and they got through the cycle 2008 was when the Ford started That's 6-4 So this is the newer generation of that 6-4 Tell me what was that truck we had a problem with The 2012 that we had That was a big truck The bad engine thing That wasn't a Ford The truck's in good condition One of the things obviously that's what we give up is we give up the safety features for what is built into current and modern One of the largest ones is the lift systems and now we're in the back of them for the cots and everything, those systems are about $40,000 to put into them but they save a lot of back injuries for loading and unloading the patients As patients tend to be changing dynamics Do you have the lift system? Did you practice it? We do not Not the ambulances We don't Also there's a lot of personal restraint systems in the newer ambulances There's actually 5-point harnesses and strap restraints for the paramedics EMTs in the back of the rigs Are the people right? Yeah, just for safety Also they don't get thrown around as much as there's an accident Plus the mount systems are different, so in the crash ratings the new mount systems are rated stronger There's been known to be failures in the mount systems that we have if they take a hard enough crash Not to put Matt on the spot but Matt can vouch first hand for having come from Alabama with an ambulance from his department that got sideswiped with patient in the back How much is a new ambulance? Just out of curiosity 225,000 How much is this? 20 They're going to ask for the demo and they're showing this one No, we're going to buy the used one and see if you 200,000 in the capital That's the plan? That's what we'd like Talk about not putting things in writing Is this supposed to get to that? No So this is the business about the use of the capital funds the ambulance revenues This is what gets so confusing because you do a run down and it's hard to line them all up So we've been working off this capital plan This opportunity only came up to us last month So we're going to spend Are you saying that you think it's a good idea to put in those safety features at 40,000? In the capital plan with the current capital funds we have it would be hard to fund it It was projected with what's going forward too But we were estimating that it was going to cost 225,000 Are you saying 25? 20 The residual value to the existing might not be much It's hard to know Just the cabin chassis may be worth 20,000 Even if it's worth 5 The payments that are listed here at 45,000 we're not going to have to make those payments So it seems to me that if we're going to save all that money the ambulance Please remember that this ambulance wasn't in the capital plan when we made our decisions back in December This came out of nowhere and now apparently may be going back to nowhere Oh okay, I see what you're saying Is there anything else out there like out of state or is this the only game in town? There is others out there not as good of a value as this one isn't how clean this truck is There was one that just sold that auction for $8,500 in New York State It was unknowing fully what the condition was What year was that? 2008 Is this a box? It's not a retention box No, it was purchased new It's a whole brand new 2010 complete It says 2012 No, 2012 was the one in the west end The current one It's a cobbled up vehicle It's listed as a 2012 The chassis is a 2012 The chassis is in good shape The whole structure now has a brand new motor So why is it budgeted for $45,000? Because we were planning on buying a new one and we had this opportunity that came up to us to move ahead and purchase a used ambulance instead of a new one which is what you've helped us decide in the past with other vehicles But what Bruce is saying is that we have them budgeted for this Is that what you're saying Bruce? Who was saying you didn't know anything about it? No, when we were making the choices back in December about how we were going to move forward with the budget this wasn't in the capital plan it came in the capital plan as you say we saw it first in April we talked about it in May and now it sounds like they're willing to take it back out of the plan and just make a purchase of this ambulance and get X number of years out of a used one So we would restructure the capital plan to reflect that We were thinking originally 2012 was going to last us for a while I believe I remember when the building the body was rebuilt but it sounds like that didn't work out that well Correct We've got a lot of years out of it We've had 7 years out of it It's always been 7 It's 2019 You forgot to count So that was So who knows So we'd like to move ahead and take a possession of a $20,000 used ambulance and redo the capital plan to reflect that and move on from there and as Denise may suggest maybe we do put in the $40,000 cut system into the capital plan and let that show up in the plan it's still less than $225,000 that we had targeted for a replacement ambulance in 2020 Maybe we should keep it 2012 That was going to be my next question Are you going to play the game of keep both so that you know So the existing one is dead So the 2014 is going out the door 2012 2012 When you put the engine They realized that the box in that probably goes into the shop once a week for maintenance issues Yeah, it sounds like that's It may not always be major issues but it's wiring at the point where they're bypassing wiring to make wiring work and things get cut out and stop working altogether at that point If it's at the shop it can't be that would help a bit Are you confident that this is a good rig? Yes We know the people at the Wilson Park Department I know the chief very well Is that body? No We've driven it We've looked at it It's immaculate It's actually been their reserve ambulance for five years They run it once a week on Sundays They have two ambulance When they replaced their other one this one left as a reserve ambulance This one hasn't run many calls for five years I guess I'm uncomfortable making a decision tonight That was our agreement We'd make it in your own meeting But this is I presume this is a request for authorization and we'd have to make it at our next meeting And will it hold till then? I think that's what it does Is it what? We're going to need 30 for this total because we have to do lettering radios and then we'll have tires We're going to need for winter on it So if we're going to do a capital purchase we'll include it all because we have no way to absorb those into a regular operating budget So put it in an email and send it to us Our next meeting is the 19 We'll be on that again Come talk to the board about it And now hold it till then What's your next meeting? Monday Do you have a lot of meetings? You look tired They're waiting for a new ambulance Once their ambulance arrives they'll be free to go out What's your ambulance coming from? They're not certain But it should be sometime early September What year is it? 2010 And you call it a rescue on an ambulance It's an ambulance We just name it rescue to replace a rescue But it's an ambulance I know that's confusing Not that confusing So it's 20k Plus about 10 for radio And for tires Tires Radio And I guess you guys need to talk about the safety package for the 40 grand to put in the back if that's something you're going to support or not And there's some business locally that would do that? We probably have to have it sent out to an ambulance company to do it What do you guys think about the safety package? That was a joke It might be a little bit I have no idea We don't do the chair or you can put it on the agenda? We can put it on the agenda It doesn't have to be done right now anyway Well how soon do you need an answer guys? On the safety thing? No The package You're going to send it to an ambulance place to be Tires and all that stuff That will all be here That's a separate item The safety package you'd send it at some place So I will revise the capital plan and send it to you as well as with the request for the purchase of the $20,000 ambulance with $10,000 Okay Okay Are we done with that item? Yep Any other questions? Okay We'll talk about school bus accident trains a couple of things going on for us Can I go back to the school bus then? Yes So you're going to be meeting with the school bus company? Yes One of the biggest issues last winter was the tires on the buses John Brevant was there and looked at the tires That's not going to be part of your training Our issue is strictly with policy and procedure for emergency incidents and how we safely treat and transport children and school bus driver Did you have to do that last You did Okay so you used auto pulse and auto pulse is automatic It's a compression device used for CPR We had purchased that from Williston this last year They had again We have contacts inside updated when they're getting rid of some of their equipment So we bought a used one for them for $3,500 New they run 1011 grand Maybe a little more Then we just put some new batteries in order But that's something we would use in cardiac arrest situations and it frees up personnel because the machine's doing all the work at that point It's got specialized bands that go over the chest and then it automatically decompresses the chest So you bought that? We did We have one, ultimately in the long run we'll try to obtain two, but we have one The R2 loan just got the update on that where we finished our second year and we're into the third year of that XTR painting of station 1, which is Templeton Road We're looking to do some exterior painting up there There is some feeling paint on the trim work of things and different parts of it The building, that door has a gray paint that was partially painted on there from the community group from a few years ago We're looking to get rid of that and paint that back so it's white Any questions on that? Well Well, this is both stations One and two We're looking at what we feel we should be doing down here and we're looking to get prices on this is that we should start painting probably a side of the building a year and do it in the four year rotation So I don't have the complete information on that to give you what the costs are on that That's what we're looking to do We get to a point where we have to start scraping and repairing and painting and things like that The cement board is notorious for once it starts to break down and gets water run out, it will deteriorate if you don't keep the paint up onto there So we're going to keep up with that while it's in good shape overall We did some minor roof repairs up on the rubber roof doing some seams that were loosened up and everything so we did some patchwork repairs to that and had it started to leak It wasn't leaking I was just lifting Yeah Yeah No leaks Just regular maintenance things just trying to keep up ahead of them Some of the drills we've done we did a major propane drill over at Alcove this last week We did a large alcohol energy over here in Eastmelt Bear There's a propane facility in Alcove We did some live propane burning over there Spent a couple hours with him We did a large volume water supply drill out and a third pond out there with the engines and the big guns flowing a couple thousand gallons a minute through the guns up through there And then we also just completed a major training event, we did several classroom here ahead of time and then we went to Huntington Home set up a course over there with Coen's and then got our drivers qualified through a Coen There's a whole course that you have to go through with different lane sizes on the Coen's slalom course forward and backwards turning around parallel parking 40 foot fire track hose testing ladder testing, we just completed those last two, we lost one length of hose, so that's good We are in the process of working to obtain a new AAD for the senior center They've recently completed a CPR class and they're looking to put an AAD into the senior center over there We've gone there in the last few months, we've been there for double cardiac issues and things like that They're working hard to keep themselves prepared and ready to go and they've got a group of people automatic external defibrillator So instead of all the big monitors we have the little packs like you see in the school systems We have a box of mounts on the wall and then the unit's inside there and it has a couple of pads that they can just easily apply and they push it as audible prompts to it What's that do? It will shock you It will shock you to get your heart going If you need it It will shock the same as our big one that just doesn't have the same monitoring capabilities but it will walk through when the breathe when there's compressions and things So it's on the wall Yeah, can you grab the unit So they make boxes now Larry, there's one right on the back there you can show them the far end of that table You see one at the schools like U32 has one in the hands right from the gymnasium end there's a white box on the wall it's probably 18 inches wide two foot tall, yeah and it has a closed box on them Some of the buildings with alarm systems have automatic alarms so as soon as somebody opens that box we actually get and so but these units just sit inside there and they teach the lay people to use these they're pretty self-sufficient, there's just a couple of buttons to push and a couple of pads to put on Was there a battery or just a plug in? Lifting my own batteries How much did it cost? They're about $1,600 with the wall box What do you put the light on? There's two of them, we've got a picture on it and we start on these one on your shoulder, one on your side and then what it would do is it'll tell you what to do it won't start up now you press the analyze and it'll analyze your heart rhythm no heart rhythm or a rhythm that connect and then try I'd have to connect these and then if it says shock you push the button and you deliver 260 joules or more of energy does it do it automatically how much it thinks you need? It's pretty sad 260 and 320 so these would be set up they're in schools, they're in gymnasiums you guys are like that they're different types they can't use them very much in a school we've gone to many schools there's malls they're all from the public airports grocery stores not my phone fire extinguisher so what's that other thing you have? they're both the same thing they can come different ways we should have one they have them in grocery stores they have them in many many places when you go to a hospital they have them maybe modeling so as you remove from the container from the wall and alarm sounds and they know the monitors have been activated so they get their team running but a small thing we do carry them on the fire trucks along with the ambulance which has the big monitor so they have them up here they don't have it we're going to get one for them and put it into there they have quite a few programs going on like I said they've been working, they just did the CPR cost and have done 15 people get CPR certified and everything what's that? shielding the auto pulse I mean if they want to see it, you guys want to see the auto pulse and how it works this is something that in studies where if I was to start CPR on you right now and do it at high performance the survival rate is 30% if I take the auto pulse put the auto pulse on you the survival rate is 71% which would you want? depends on the stage of life I'll show you the book while you guys have your meeting I'll set the auto pulse up the auto pulse has gotten so good at what it does the auto pulse has gotten so good at what it does medicines had to come up with protocols to sedate people because they were getting consciousness while it's doing CPR on calm down Bob Bob, the last thing under the EMFD is the measles month rubella you guys remember that measles month rubella 3-pronged shot that's coming back around you may have heard it on the news and then hepatitis A and then compressing so I have to do this at the rate of 120 times a minute whereas I could take this device place the life band on if you're in the back of the ambulance trying to do this and you have no safety harness on you're just getting thrown over the place takes us a minute to put it on so if we have to transport you now while this is going in the ambulance we use a special it's called a mega mover this is a device with six handles you can place it right underneath you underneath this board we can pick you right up this is still running like this it never stops all the way to the hospital get to your CPR then we put a collar on so that it would be the same so manual compressions all of us at East Montpelier have gone through a rigorous course with an instructor in the hospital a paramedic instructor we do a thing called pit stop like you see the race car drivers what does this, that and everything else the team if we have four or five people are all designated I might be administering drugs through a I've started an IV but instead of starting an IV in your arms we find a spot beside of your leg we have an IO drill they drill right into your bone it just takes a second and they actually do this on people like if we're sitting here tonight or a 14-gauge needle in your arm it hurts more there than if I drill it in your knee it will hurt because there's no nerves in your knee you run conscious, unresponsive not breathing, no heartbeat you don't feel it but if you go online and watch interosseous IO drilling and they do it they do it on patients they do it at the hospital right now if they can't find an IV access they just drill very pain to the we do them in the shoulder to the humerus or we do them in the knee just blow them inside your 10th fem area there one of the beneficial things with an autoapulosis the initiative right now if you're having what's called STEMI or ST elevation biocardial infarction particular kind of heart attack how do you know we run an EKG on you and we can the computer will tell you sometimes we have to be smarter than the video game but the definitive care for that is either at UVM or Dartmouth and that can be that can be a ride especially in February so for us to go there we wouldn't want to undertake that without having one of these if you do go into cardiac arrest with one of us in the back of the truck on those trips so that's a benefit here as we can get you to that definitive care I know chief and I have done a couple of those runs I think Sandy and I did one where we it's not a knock against CVH they're just they don't have a cath lab and that's where you need to be for definitive care so we can go straight we can go straight into cardiac catheterization right out of the ambulance so does this work is it successful I was on Mary City for 20 years Matt was on Mary City how many did you see Matt in the saves with this well it's not only the saves like I was mentioning earlier just the fact that people in cardiac arrest will gain consciousness and that's not just a anecdotal thing there's National Institutes of Health have research papers written on it how effective they are well that means the blood is getting to your brain better if you've taken CPR over the course of several years I think this is my 26th year at it in license DMS they change things almost every five years ill core comes out with new recommendations remember back when you give five compressions to two breaths what they've learned is that it takes 10 to 13 compressions to prime the system just like prime of the well pump it takes so many compressions to prime the system to get blood moving so that's why now in manual CPR we're up to 30 compressions before you stop to give a breath and with the new pit crew CPR you only stop momentarily I mean this thing the pit crew is uninterrupted compressions and that's the goal is to get to that uninterrupted compressions because you do get better performance out of the body you know CPR in the best in the best of cases is marginally effective as far as restoring blood flow where your heart would be and you know it's really you really can't do it safely with a truck either you've got to stand up in the ambulance you have no place you lock your feet into the cot and you're over the patient if it goes around the corner you're going forward and back so this device allows me to be strapped in the seat I can do my stuff on this side Matt would do his stuff on the head and the other side so this device here they're about $10,000 or $12,000 new and we were able to purchase this one for $9,500 so we feel that this used in the towns of East Mobile Calis, Plainfield, Marshall wherever we're covering because we have such a long run time to get to any of these people this gives them the best opportunity so I've seen people that have a flat line on the monitor no breathing, no palpable pulse this is put on them the drugs are administered all of a sudden after the shock is delivered this is working how many of you have used this already? we haven't used it on a patient here in town I've used it many many times and I worked on Berry City for 20 plus years and I've had people actually come back to the fire station weeks later that were clinically dead no heartbeat, no pulse, no respirations come back again, the bank is just saving their lives this device here is a big study now on the west coast where a fire department out there was saving about 20% of the people they went to full-time paramedic firefighters put this device on and over the course of the next year cardiac arrest went to 71% to go back to a functional life no deficits everything else going on so that's where we're investing in people so how many pounds per person can that 300 or 400 pounder depending on their chest size it'll take up to like 54 58 inches thank you everybody sitting at the table here this would adequately take care of and I've gone to some patients that have been in the 400, 500 pound range and if they fit on the board and this fits on their chest expansion because when I turn this on and when I push the button it's sizing them right away it's either going to work or it's safe we have a head block that holds the head in position so it doesn't bounce into the mannequin and then we just continue going to the patient and then take the patient right into the ambulance and it continues all the way to the hospital we have extra batteries the batteries are about $800 a piece we don't want those batteries tonight we just bought three new ones we bought three new ones because what Zoll who makes the machine says you need to have three just a rotation we have one in, one in the bag, one in the charger every morning one in the charger goes out one in the bag goes in, one in the machine comes out so we're 100% fresh so we have at least 60 minutes of time to work at home with this device on they say the hospital and the guidelines are 30 minutes of continuous CPR drug intervention cardiac compression here and all of this the shock and everything else we have a protocol that we follow very extensively if we can't resuscitate you at that point we call it right there we're talking with the doctor and the medics can deliver everything the hospital can deliver the medics can deliver and the advanced AMTs are delivering the epinephrine 1-10,000 which is the stimulator which we had a case in Calis we had a manual CPR we happen to have a good crew of people there administering the drugs the medics showed up we were doing our stuffs manual CPR and flat line all of a sudden the heartbeat started and the drug therapy and everything else we got the patient loaded and brought her to the hospital she did die a day later but that was a flat line monitor, recorded the blood pressure is by hand and in one shock we delivered, started her back up so this device here gives us a better fighting chance for everybody that we go to helps us a lot this band here is $275 a piece so this is expensive medical equipment the newer ones that come out now will have adapters to it we can plug our monitor into it it will say if the monitor pads are on it will automatically detect when the shock is delivered and it will start to monitor and fire the shock directly on so it's a complete cardiac care unit amazing thank you anybody want to make a motion to adjourn second got that Katie thank you thank you very much thank you


Hello, everybody. This is search and seizure in golf balls, where I will teach you a little bit about search and seizure, and then Eric will tell you everything you want to know about not hitting someone with a golf ball and getting blamed for it. Can I have a quick show of hands? Who knows a little bit about Eric's story? I've heard it before. Fair amount of people. If anyone else is confused after we're done talking, talk to one of the people who just raised their hands. They'll explain. My name is Jim. I am a criminal defense attorney. I've been practicing here in Vegas for the past three years or so. Eric is but a modest hacker and was mining his own business one day about two years ago when he found himself arrested by the Seattle police department. So what I'm going to do then is I'm going to talk a little bit about search and seizure law, when the police can stop you, when you can be searched, what the law actually is, and then we're going to see from Eric's experience how the law is actually applied by the police and you might see a little bit of a difference between the two. And we want to have time for questions at the end. Hopefully we will have time to have questions in here. If we don't have time in here, we'll be in the Q&A room over there. 113. Thank you. After this. Okay. Oh yeah, I have to give my legal disclaimer. Because I'm a lawyer, I have a legal disclaimer, which is that you should not take legal advice from some guy talking at DEF CON. If you actually get arrested, hire a lawyer or get the public defender or whatever, but don't take my advice as the gospel truth. I only have 20 minutes to instruct you on law that took me at least three or four months of law school to learn. So I'm not really going to cover everything, okay? And don't try to play gacha with me either. I know I'm leaving stuff out, okay? I speak from experience with hackers. Okay. All right. Now, search and seizure law is mostly based on the federal constitution, the Bill of Rights, the 4th, 5th and 6th amendments. This is stuff that they really should have taught us all in high school. Instead of telling us about the bill on Capitol Hill, they probably should have told us what to do when police stop you and when police can stop you. Because honestly, that's the interaction most of us have with the police or the government more often than passing bills and the executive branch and blah, blah, blah. However, they don't teach us this stuff in high school, so that's why I'm going to give a little primer, give you a little framework to understand what happened to Eric. So there's basically three different levels of when the police can stop you. There's the voluntary stop, the investigatory detention also knows the Terry stop and getting arrested. And that's going from least serious to most serious. All right. So the first one is the voluntary stop. And that's a fancy legal lawyer way of saying police officers, hey, can I talk to you? And you say, sure, why not? Ta-da, you've had a voluntary encounter with a police officer. This is when both of you are agreeing together to have a conversation or at least that's the way it's framed. The officer is going to say you're both agreeing that you're having a conversation. Maybe you're kind of a little bit intimidated into having a conversation. Now, this can last as long as either one of you want it to. And there's completely obviously legitimate reasons to talk to the police officer. It's not all you might get in trouble. You know, everyone's had a situation where they actually call the police and want the police to help them. So it's, it basically lasts until you've both decided to stop talking to one another. And the way you know it's a voluntary encounter versus something more serious that we'll get to is that you are free to leave at any time if it's a voluntary encounter. If you ask the police officer, hey, you know, I'm basically done talking. Is it okay if I leave? I have some place to go. If they say no, then you're being detained. You've been seized by the police officer. This almost isn't a seizure, but officers can use a lot of tricks to keep you kind of intimidated where you'd like to say, I want to leave or, you know, I'm kind of done with the conversation. But you know, they're police officer. They have shiny badges and uniforms and guns and things.  And my advice to you is to be polite to the police officer. Be helpful if you want to be helpful. You don't have to be. But at least be polite.  If you're walking by and the cop asks you what time it is, don't be like, oh, am I free to leave, officer? Are you detaining me? Just be cool with the officer. And you know, they're people doing their jobs too, all right? They might have a different outlook on some things than your I do, but they're doing their jobs. And they might be having a bad day. Just play it cool and hopefully you won't escalate to the next level of a police encounter. Which is an investigatory detention, which is also known as a Terry stop for the famous case Terry v Ohio, which says the police can stop you when they have reasonable suspicion that a crime has occurred and that you're somehow involved. And as you'll hear from Eric, this is pretty much the situation when they first showed up on the scene in his case. Arguably. I saw you're about to argue with me, don't. And basically, the cops get a call.  And at this point, they're investigating whether a crime has occurred. They don't really know. I mean, someone calls 911. But, you know, they don't know if a crime actually occurred. If it's a prank call, if it's something serious, not serious, they don't know what's going on. So they're showing up and trying to figure out, is there a crime? Is that guy involved in the crime? What's going on? So they're allowed to hold the person there until the suspicion is confirmed or the suspicion is evaporated or dissipates or whatever fancy word you want to use. Dispelled. Sure. That was geeky. All right. So they can stay there and basically they investigate and if they decide after some investigation that they got the wrong guy, they're supposed to let the person go. And at that point it goes back down to the previous level, the voluntary encounter. I mean, if they're letting you go, you can stick around if you really wanted to. Or you can leave. Or it gets escalated to the next level, which is you got arrested because they confirmed the suspicion that there was a crime. So this is kind of in between place. And because of that, your rights during this time are pretty unclear. You always have, your rights, we'll talk about later, the Miranda rights, like to remain silent and have a lawyer, you always have those rights. Those are constitutional rights. But it's not really clear if you have any special rights. They don't have to remind you of them at this point. They don't have to read you your rights at this point because they're just investigating. It's also unclear how long they can keep you in this kind of twilight zone of investigating but not charging you with anything not arresting you. The courts take it on a case by case basis. They can't, I think it's usually like if you go past an hour or two of standing on the side of a road, the courts are kind of like, yeah, you should probably let you go. Or they should, you know, they can always come find you later if they need to. There's also a question when they're investigating whether or not you have to identify yourself to police. And this is especially true in Eric's case, which is why he's here to talk today. The answer to that is it depends what state you live in. There was a Supreme Court case called Hibble that was out of Nevada.  And the Supreme Court said that law is fine, but it's up to the states. So here in Nevada, if they're investigating something and ask you to identify yourself, you do have to identify yourself. In Washington state where Eric was detained, there is no such law. And he'll talk about what'll happen because of that. But there is no such law there. If there's about 15 states that have stop and identify laws, you can Wikipedia it later. I don't have a list in front of me, but you have to check on whatever state you're in as to whether you have to identify yourself to police. When you get stopped in this way before you get arrested, so you're not arrested, you're stopped by the side of the road. They can only pat you down for weapons if they have a reasonable suspicion or idea that you have some kind of weapon on you. They don't just get to search you if they've stopped you like this. They can search you only for weapons, only if they have some suspicion that you have a weapon, maybe the 911 caller says, oh, I thought he had a gun. Well, then they can pat you down. But they can only pat you down to make sure you do or don't have weapons. They're not allowed to go into your pockets. They are not allowed to feel something and say, oh, that feels like a wallet. I wonder what's in there. Let's take that out. No. They basically get to feel you up. If it feels like you have a gun or a knife, they can take that off of you, but that's it. They don't get to search anything else. They don't get to look inside things, nothing like that. They can always ask you on this level or the previous on a voluntary encounter, they can ask you for permission if you want to let the officer search you you can, of course. I wouldn't recommend it. And this, of course, leads to many police reports where they claim that the person let them voluntarily search. Whether or not that actually happens is in question many times, but you have a right to not be searched basically up until this point. And again, this level is very vague. This investigatory detention is very vague about your rights and what you should do. Again, just remain polite, remain cool and calm, as you'll see Eric doing for the most part throughout his encounter. And try not to get arrested, which leaves us, oh, come on, open office. There we go. What was that? What's a weapon? It's something that can be plainly identified as a weapon.  If it feels like a knife, they probably get to take it away. Something you can hurt people with.   Stuff like that. All right. Yes, yes. All right, it's not lawyer gotcha time. Let me continue. You can annoy me about what's a weapon during the Q&A. All right. Level three is arrest. They get to arrest you if they have a warrant for your arrest, big shocker. If they actually see you committing the crime, then they get to arrest you, of course. And if there's probable cause that a crime has occurred, do not ask me to define probable cause that will take too long and will be here all day. Probable cause is more than reasons for suspicion, excuse me. If they show up, let's say to a scene, not a one caller says, oh my gosh, there's a bank robbery, a guy with a black t-shirt and camouflage shorts just robbed the bank. They show up and I'm still standing around and 10 people from the bank says, that's the guy right there. Obviously the police didn't see me commit the crime, but at that point they have probable cause because 10 people are all pointing at me and saying he robbed the bank. Whether or not I actually robbed the bank is the question for the trial, which is way down the road. Right now we're just dealing with the police. So basically once you get arrested they get to keep you as long as they want to. You have to be charged within a certain amount of time, that's a different thing. And they basically get to keep you until you're charged with a crime, not charged with a crime, and if you're charged with a crime then bail has to be set, etc. You do get to be searched when you're arrested and that's a full-on search, your pockets are going to get emptied and they're going to take an inventory of everything to make sure nothing gets stolen or you don't accuse them of stealing anything. Right? Alright. And if you're driving your car when you get arrested there's many many rules about what part of your car gets to be searched. I'm going to say the short version is if you get arrested while you're driving your car yes they can search your whole car. So if you're carrying around your weed in your car, bad idea. They will find it if you get arrested.  They get to search if you're arrested in your house. What are your rights at this point? It's your Miranda rights and I'll go into more detail in just a second. I'll just do it.  But there's a caveat to that. Once you're arrested you have these rights. The right to remain silent and the right to an attorney. And the other ones in parentheses are special. If you're a kid under 18 you have the right to have your parent present at any questioning. And if you're not a U.S. citizen you have a right to someone from your home country's embassy or consulate. You have a right to have them come help you come talk to you. But anyway the main two are the right to remain silent and the right to an attorney. So this year the Supreme Court decided one of their stupidest criminal decisions in a long time. Because previously the way you exercised your right to remain silent was you were silent. And that makes a lot of sense if the police are talking to you and you're sitting there not saying anything and they keep talking to you keep talking to you. You're not saying anything you're quiet. Well clearly the person's choosing to remain silent they're exercising their rights. And the point of that is at some point the police need to stop asking you questions stop being intimidating let you remain silent because that is your right and leave you alone. What the Supreme Court said this year I don't remember the case name but they said this year in order to exercise your right to remain silent you must tell the police officer that you want to be silent. So what you have to do is once you get arrested you must say I want to remain silent and then remain silent and then that'll work and then they have to leave you alone and not question you about what's going on. You also have the right to an attorney and you should have you have to say I want to talk to my attorney or I want to see an attorney and then stop talking. If you put any qualifiers on it like I probably want to see you an attorney I think I should see an attorney it's a good idea it doesn't count. There's many many cases on this it doesn't count if you put any kind of qualifying language all you have to say is I must see my attorney or I want to see my attorney the end. So you have to actively invoke your rights there's no more passive courts assuming that you want to exercise your rights you actually have to step up and invoke your rights so if you ever get arrested please step up and invoke your rights they're there for a reason they're there to protect you. All right you ready? Yeah. All right. So now that's the basic framework the three different ways the police can stop you and as you'll see Eric's experience was we kind of start out when investigating the crime and he ends up in jail whether or not he should have is. Well currently being debated. Still two years later. Yeah. Just a moment while I steal the video here. Yeah yeah. Sorry in the meantime there he got arrested because he and a bunch of people some of whom are here in the audience. I don't know if they want to hide or say they are a bunch of people were playing what's called urban golf in Seattle. I don't know. Is your laptop. Oh that was because it's dual view. So if you could tell us what urban golf is really quick. So yeah urban golf divide are you in the room.  It's organized in Seattle by the student divide and pretty much the deal is it's a it's a prearranged organized event open to the public kicks off here various different locations that was Cal Anderson Park Capitol Hill neighborhood anyway.  And so by the ninth hole you know which incidentally is where the incident took place. It's you know it's been a fairly lively and engaging experience. So yeah it's a great time. Yeah go for it by the way how are we for time. We're fine for time don't worry about that.  Yes we're recreating the real event for some reason we were listed as a demo on the website. So I decided I should do a demo. You want to get me arrested you got to try harder than that. I'm kind of debating how much you know how much I want to ramble about all this so how I how are we for time. Okay ramble so I'll start I'm actually I'll tell the story in flashback format and I'll start with at the point that I got arrested and then I'll circle back to how it all went down. So at the point in time where the officer decided to arrest me you know did the predictable thing put me in cuffs it's me down on the curb does this thing for a while. Eventually he throws me in the back of a squad car there were a bunch of squad cars on the scene he turns the little in car video camera that was facing out the front of the car to face me in the back of the car to record me bad behaving badly if I should have chosen to do so and probably also to provide evidence that he wasn't you know beating me up in the squad car.  I remember you know when I finally found myself in the holding cell at the station I'm sitting there still in cuffs with my pockets turned inside out and you know just noticing a little camera on the ceiling in the holding cell and this big metal gnarly metal hook embedded in the cement floor I'm like wow how do you get yourself attached to that you know and you know having been you know participating in urban golf earlier I'd you know I'd been consuming liquids and you know I still had a fair amount of liquids on board and it was getting fairly uncomfortable and I was waging this private battle with the police I was not gonna ask to use the bathroom and thereby give them the satisfaction of confirming that maybe I had in fact had a couple of drinks but you know so it was you know at a certain point to start to wonder like how long hang on to me here you know they're like I'm gonna have to use my phone call to have somebody feed my cat you know what's going on it it wasn't too traumatic they threatened to hold me over the entire weekend but that turned out to be a bluff they cut me loose after about 45 minutes and you know much later I was charged and I think if there's time I'll ramble about that as well but yeah so circling back to the incident itself I think I'll just roll the tape so you know actually I had a rant for a second before I roll the tape the the police by the way when I went and asked for the tape during my criminal trial produced no tape after the case was dismissed I filed some public records acts requests for the tape I was told oh well we had a tape but we erased the tape I thought that would have been a violation of SPD policy since I'd read the policies at that point and so then I did some research turns out that the system they use creates activity logs for all the tapes I was like wow I want to see who erased it and when so I got the activity log turns out they had the tape the whole entire time so this is that tape they just forgot so I'll ramble during the first minute of the tape about the technical aspects of digital in-car video systems used by the police here the cop cars just parked because the police have been interviewing the complainant that is the person who called 911 because he got hit with a nerve ball and at a certain point they see a bunch of golfers at the other end of the block and the complainant goes look golfers and so two of the cops jump back in their squad cars and turn the squad cars around and go and you know initiate the contact and that's what's happening here officer Emily is turning her car around and there's the bar that was the ninth bar in the course and the complainants here in white sneakers and there's another cop standing there he's going to walk over in a minute this is silent because this is the cameras in so-called pre-event mode it continuously records everything that goes on but only when it's activated does it start to retain the video and so it gets the 60 seconds before it's activated by the officer turning on the overhead lights as the one up front does also notice that they park at an angle that's to get the best possible view for the camera right through the windshield and all that good stuff and we'll get audio now because officer Emily has just turned on the microphone that over there keep walking there sure sure sure are you with them are you with them I'm not giving you any statements are you with them yes or no what's that about a statement well to answer your questions that would be a statement I'm not answering questions so so what's that he's not giving any statements so cool would we get to arrest him and let him know it's great head over there now I don't know if you can hear what he just said but that cop just walks right up to her she says he's not answering any questions he says cool that means we get to arrest him and hold him for the weekends he looks at his watch and says that's it you're not gonna see a judge until Monday and all I've done is not answer questions can you do that yes can hear actually arrest you for that no not in Washington where there's no stop identify law and besides you're just minding your own business they want to ask you simple questions so you can refuse to answer can he threaten to arrest you and you know take your first born child and all that kind of stuff yes he the police officers allowed to lie to you and generally intimidate you into saying things but you also have a right to resist that so well that's I mean that's pretty brutal like so if I assert my rights he can totally just like threaten to violate them left right and center is waiting to get me to wave them well he up to a point I mean if he takes out his gun and points at you and threatens you yeah he's crossed the line but can he just be can he be generally mean to you to make you to try to trick you in answering questions yes he can't yeah we don't really have the audio of my conversation with the officer here because the girl with the mic she's walked away with that help you deal with this hey if you put your hands in your pockets one more time I get to you really no the police's favorite words are furtive movements which basically means anything they want to mean and they try to turn that into a way to search you because they're like oh we kept edging his hand toward his pocket so maybe as a weapon there that's why he's doing it right instead of just you know someone's really nervous because they got pulled over by a cop so they're fidgeting so but no obviously at this point you're not under arrest for anything there's been no claim you have a weapon other than a maybe a golf club which you're not holding and he has no reason to search you so no he can't search you right now that's now on video I'll just let the tape roll and some things happen minute she just called me a joker so I guess it bears mentioning what else where with the microphone it's during my conversation with the officer here I was careful to ask am I being detained he's like yeah that's like so I'm not free to go he's like no why he's like we're investigating an assault this is the first I've heard of any assault but in my mind's eye I'm like great somebody drunk with a golf club just totally went to town this is also the usual the police getting the law half right because they're cops they think they know of the law 100% they're usually half right someone got hit with a golf ball is a battery not an assaults genius but getting hit by any object by a person like okay I'm going to put that's a battery you can get arrested for that technically hitting any other person against their will with any object is a crime and so they have a right to investigate that why don't you address intent because I mean the guy who hit the dude with the foam golf ball didn't mean to we believe that gets into technical legal jargon but basically I suppose in technically he didn't intend to hit the guy but he's at least a little liable for hitting the guy and yes civil liability yeah it's a pain and then he's probably still creamy liable I mean if you're hitting golf balls in downtown Seattle what do you think someone's not gonna get hit once in a while we want to be very careful by the way it's insane nerve balls or nerf golf balls of course balls so sorry yeah no you do not have to show you are injured further to be a battery like literally this is a battery I'm not joking sorry now they're just screwing around with me but in a minute they're gonna start trying to figure out what to do about this whole situation because they're kind of defunded themselves also a character's about to enter from camera right that will be the complainant again in the white sneakers and he's going to be tipping them off to the fact that he just saw the complainant just you know they said so do you know which one hit you and the complainants like he's a bit thicker like my height with a stocking cap also notice I'm right there so this is legally relevant because well well should they still be detaining me at this point no because he just showed up and said that's not the guy that hit me they asked I or they didn't exactly said but they asked who's want to hit you and you're standing right in front of his face and he pointed you and say yeah that's him so really at this point they should probably let you go and also hmm this is have some is this possibly the reason why this tape went missing for a year or so we can only speculate I don't know you're now conferring among themselves we got him to be able to identify doesn't have a class as you said they don't even have an ID on their suspect and give them another few seconds to roll before I cut it actually so yeah instead of turning me loose what do they do they decide to gather up the IDs of everybody on the scene including people who couldn't possibly be the silent because they're the wrong gender wrong race I don't know if everybody could hear that he asked me to take my ID out and I kind of thought about it for a second like how do I answer this you know because he already threatened to throw me in jail for the weekend and some kind of like I'm very nervous this you know I'm like this guy like I'm walking the spine line like I want to assert my rights here and not be pushed around or you know I have a messing with me but at the same time you know now he's getting really assertive with me and so I said well if you have the legal basis and authority to remove my ID from my wallet I will not resist so of course you know a little a little overwrought of an answer and I wouldn't know if you want to bust out the legalese every time you might just want to be like no yeah now a reminder to something Jim said earlier don't try this in the state of Nevada or any of the 23 other states that have stop and identify laws where provided the officer has reasonable suspicion which this one doesn't with respect to me anyway not now because earlier yeah but anyhow you said it's great for the camera I love it so yeah despite the fact that cameras rolling he's got you know his colleagues standing right freaking there you know also despite the fact that he had no qualms about searching the incident to the arrest five minutes later he's now telling me that I need to search myself for him otherwise I'll accuse him of stealing stuff from me well no he one wonders yeah yeah well again this is the cop half knowing the law because he knows that okay if he's not under arrest yet I can't actually go into his pocket so I'm gonna ask him to do it for me but at the same time he's like feeling up your pocket and stuff which he's not supposed to do anyway because he doesn't think you have a weapon so again he kind of half knows what's going on but not really yeah we can play your game as much as you can I am making a legal request of you to remove your ID from your wallet I have removed your walk from your pocket for your request I'm not gonna dig into your wallet because I'm not comfortable with that given your demeanor if you don't want to remove your ID from your wallet I will take that as a refusal to identify yourself you are now informed of that it's on reporting so if you refuse to give me your ID is now in your pocket you refuse to give me your ID go back over there then right now I'm requesting your ID give me your ID you refuse to give me your ID hey we can always take him down and he could go to the fingerprint section and that's all she wrote so what were you eventually charged with exactly yeah so I'm just gonna let the tape run with the volume turned down now so yeah the aftermath here is they they charge me with obstructing which is really broadly written law I'm not gonna play the lawyer with a lawyer actually sitting here but I have to know the Washington State obstruction statute by heart as a result of this experience and that is any willful act where which has the effect of hindering interfering with or delaying an officer in the discharge of his or her official duties is a misdemeanor and so you know to read that statute at face value it's almost like you don't have rights it's almost like you know refuse to answer questions that's a hindrance don't let them search your car that's a delay and that's exactly how the police department will you know likes to interpret these statutes and they have obstructing statutes like this in a lot of states and you know to a great degree it's it's like Jim says you know the cops they kind of have no the law you know they're not they don't have the entire you know American court system in their brains to sit there and untangle these conflicting statutes that have these inconvenient rights that kind of you know work at all you know at different purposes right and that's I mean that's not their jobs but unfortunately it can have some really bad side effects obviously like Eric went to jail for how long were you in jail for I was only held for about two hours oh okay but I mean you could have been in there I mean who cares I wouldn't want to be in jail for two hours I wouldn't want to be in jail for a couple minutes up your Friday night yeah and I mean I mean you're did you bail yourself out of the release you they release me hey it's at least they're nice enough to that but I mean a lot of people can't get released a lot of people can't afford to bail out and you know it's not their job to know exactly what the law is that's my job it's the court's job it's other people's jobs but it can take several months of sitting in jail before you go to a trial or have a hearing that decides what the law is and what whether what you're doing was right or wrong so that takes a long time and it's a pain in the ass and so it would be nice if the police were a little more informed on the law instead of just construing everything in their favor funny you put it that way oh so about informing the police of the law I guess since there's time I'll talk a little bit about the aftermath of the experience so the first thing I did is I went home and I located the Washington State case that cleared up the ambiguity of the situation all the way back in 1982 Washington State Supreme Court in a case called State v. White said that quote a detainees refusal to disclose his name address another information cannot be the basis of an arrest and so I took the case citation and I emailed it to the Seattle police department's office of professional accountability 10 days after the incident and said hey you guys have tape you've got the facts here's the law don't be arresting people for this and the Seattle police department took my opinion into due consideration and decided to go ahead and charge me with the crime of obstructing so they're like who cares what the law says your and that's when the situation got really really actually kind of frightening because you know at the time of my arrest emotionally I was I was okay you know I'm kind of like alright well this is a fun little civics experiment isn't it you know sitting in handcuffs riding around in the cop car fairly comfortable in the knowledge that I'm innocent except that then when it's time to actually review the facts and the law the system started to go sideways on me and now I'm like oh my god I'm actually being charged with the crime this is now on my record they almost didn't let me into Canada when I tried to go up for Kansak they you know then of course there was the whole thing of like you know crap what if I'm convicted there goes my career they offered me a deal they would drop the charges if I did a bunch of community service and I was gonna say other people arrested that night too you weren't the only one who's rested yeah so other people right yes I'll come back you know so yeah also let's go let's go down that road for a second so yeah two other people were arrested one more for obstructing that was a totally bogus arrest as well allegedly the guy walked away from an officer after being ordered to stop despite the fact that they'd already arrested somebody else for the assault and that somebody else who they arrested for the assault was not as the complainant described a bit thicker about his height wearing a stocking cap and white that so actually you do you mind being singled out right dude it's a real killer so actually talk oh there is yeah here's here's Hikari who had the extreme unpleasant experience of being arrested for assault with a Nerf ball he also got charged and I'm sure it wasn't any more fun for him than it was for me his case was dismissed as well when basically the half-dozen people who were with him the whole entire time informed his lawyer that we didn't see a damn thing and anyway it was a nerf ball so at that point the city decided to drop his case city did it city press my case all the way to the brink of trial we told the city attorney's office repeatedly about the law and they just kept ignoring it and ignoring it and ignoring it until finally the morning of the first contested hearing which is when you actually go and get in front of a judge and argue something and that's when the city attorney said just kidding drop in the case I was out like I said bite you didn't drop the case they dropped the case yes so at that point I was out several thousand dollars for my attorney's fees and so my attitude at the time about the the decision to exercise my civil rights was a somewhat doubtful one and I was like well that was a very expensive learning experience but like I said later on I asked for the tape I started thinking about suing the cops I am suing the cops for false arrest and various other claims that case it's it's it's going I actually I guess it bears mentioning just just this week settled a related case for their failure to turn over the tapes and the experience at this point has been educational and expensive for them so I think on on that note I guess now is about the time turn it over to questions and well before we do that you want to hit golf ball in the audience yeah this time he won't get in any trouble for hitting the golf ball all right heads up fools okay go ahead though that is true the question was are you required to provide identification if there's a stop and identify law or identify yourself there's no requirement in the US except Arizona for you to carry your papers on you so you have to identify yourself give them probably your name in your birth date if you lie you will be in trouble that is a crime at that point so don't try to do shenanigans if they ask you if they have right to ask you you need to tell them the truth alright so the short version of the question is if a cop approaches you to ask you a question should you just say nothing or should you say I'm exercising my right not to talk to you I would just say um somewhere in between I would say no politely say you know I'm not going to answer a question I have somewhere else to be and I'm walking away see you later if you want to stop you and try to escalate it at that point then he's probably going to have some explaining to do I'm depending on state all right junk is going to die if you don't answer the question what yes yes all right so that the question is the question is if you know because in Nevada there's a law that you have to post the trespass notice on the place first so yes if you if you manage to accidentally go on the roof of the Riviera they can kick you off the property right right I'm just saying hypothetically they can certainly eject you from the property because they don't have to let you be here but no that's not trespassing anyway okay let's go the yellow shirt and then the gray shirt thanks question is if you're in an interrogation room you've been arrested at that point is there some golden time limit before they have to stop questioning you the answer is no not really however the longer it takes the more likely a court is going to say that's not cool and kick out whatever they get at some point hopefully you evoke your right to be silent or to have an attorney and that should end it sooner but no if you hold out for 24 hours it's not like there's some magic limit where they have to stop questioning you they have to give you water in bathroom I'm sure at some point yes the answer is that but okay before we go to the person in the gray shirt we've just been told that time is up and we need to continue this discussion in room 113 all right gracious thank you everybody