o far deep down into your lies and your bullshit, you know, you have to maintain internal consistency of psychological or cognitive dissonance where it's like, I can't go back on it. No, honestly, I really do think he loves that film. I think it speaks to him on a personal level. That's probably what's happening. Then again, he has a screw loose. So how do you get there myself? He does. Wait, what? Do you think LJ is the best ER, is that what you're trying to tell me? I think it deserves a little bit more than it gets. Do you think it deserves a few extra Patrick Willems's? Yes. No one deserves more Patrick Willems's, not even Patrick Willems. Well, what would your pick be for film of the decade? Well, no one brought up the best or film of the decade. Get out. I love your view of that, by the way. It is truly an excellent. What a fantastic film. That is a weird one. Us was way worse. Would you like it better than what was us, yeah. Oh, God. I went to see it in the cinema. I was like intrigued. I thought the trailer was pretty neat. I was like, maybe he'll do it right this time. And it was completely fucked. That film made no sense. The problem is that he, what's his name? Keir Peele, Jordan Peele, yeah, he's a funny guy and he seems to be talented.  I didn't like either. I I thought that get out had some. Decent moments in it, but it was more coherent. So, yeah, it was more coherent than us. I'll put it that way. I did not enjoy it, though, overall. I thought it felt like a comedy to me, which is maybe because it was made by a comedian. I don't know. And it was originally marketed as a comedy. Well, yeah, well, the predator was written. It was made by was it made by a comedian? Shane Black. Shane Black, is he a comedian? I don't think he's a comedian. Well, he does a lot of comic films or comedy focused films, like mashups, genre massups, you could call them. But I wouldn't call him a comedian. Speaking of comedy, I again, I just finished watching the Mandalorian. I was not expecting Bill Burr's cameo in the Mandalorian that I was watching it. And I was like, yeah, I heard about that. And I was like, I was like, well, is that Bill Burr tomorrow? Am I going insane? Am I crazy? Yeah, I was really happy to see him. Yeah, I like Bill. Yeah, he's he's did a fine job playing a character.  They were like, yeah, on his chest. And he had one that stuck out on his back with a robot arm. It was weird. Remember how I don't want to get onto the Mandalorian or anything. But when they like, oh, my God, look, there's like four dude shooting us, whatever can we do? And then Mando like takes him all out like a badass. And then later on, Singular Guy takes out like that same amount with ease.  They're they're bullet resistant. They're they're blaster resistance seems to be extremely inconsistent. He tried to hang the devil, man.  When Satan walks in instead of shooting him, he tried to hang him. We're going to get on a tangent about Mandalorian. It baffled me when I was watching that.  And it shows.  It wouldn't he didn't execute anyone. They all survived. I know. That's another weird thing. Did they survive? Yeah, we're shown that all of them were still alive. Yeah, I guess they want to keep them in case they come back for season two or something. Oh, yeah, I guess because they're all so interesting and compelling. I guess I hated the twillet character. It was just space. Harley Quinn. I was just saying that was the I exactly as soon as I saw.  That was my exact goddamn line.   I'll be the first to say it. I'm really sorry. I know this will not get me a brownie points, but I have never liked Harley Quinn and I don't like Harley Quinn. I don't like any iteration of her pretty much, including the animated series. I'm play creations that he also tried to bird Satan. Yeah. Well, yeah. If only if only I had some sort of arranged weapon I could shoot people in the head with. No, I'm trying to hang the person. He's literally I don't think I could get over that. Super strong, that's such a bizarre method of execution, the whistling birds. Yeah, he wasted those on him. Like out of work, like work. He took out four or five stormtroopers with that. And it's like, why are you using it on one dude? You dip. And they didn't even work.  Spun around like, oh, I guess they don't work well. Oh, we could talk about how in that episode there is a male twillock who has two tendrils when male twillocks canonically have one. So is that a trans twillock? I guess. I don't know. Very progressive. It is very progressive of the Mandalorian. Let's all clap. Jab isn't even here. Oh, everyone, everyone, jazz hands. We could trigger some. Oh, right. Yeah, we don't want it. Yeah, sorry, everybody, jazz hands. We don't want to use hands. Just 10 seconds of silence. Let me know when you're when you're we should we should get off. Mandalorian stop. Yes, it's terrible. We will. We won't. We won't stop. How many bad episodes away? So what else? What are you talking about? What other good films of hey, hey, hey, Adam, how does Blade Runner 2049 stack up to you for this decade? It was great. I really enjoyed it. Yeah, it's. I I'll have to watch it again. I've watched it a few times already. It's one of those movies where. Like it's it's very rare that I see something with that scale and budget that I'm able to connect with pretty much throughout. I think that pretty much every element comes together really, really well. And it's one of the rare sequels or you could even call it kind of a soft reboot. It's one of those very rare ones that isn't a carbon copy. But despite doing its own thing is still faithful and respectful towards the original. So I I really enjoyed it. I loved any so. Cinematography was amazing. Music was amazing. Yeah, I enjoy it more than I enjoy the original Blade Runner. Although the original Blade Runner was much more influential as like a piece of cinema history. I enjoyed the new one more as a entertainment sort of narrative experience. So could you why do you like it more than the original? Just curious. Just not just from an entertainment experience. Like the original movie is something where if I'm going to watch it, I am basically more appreciating it than I am enjoying it. So it's almost kind of like doing homework in that sense for me. It just doesn't connect to me as much. I feel like it's not that well paced. And the 2049 version, I find to be much more entertaining. I'm constantly engaged in it. So yeah, not nearly as influential like the new one is not as important as the original Blade Runner, but I enjoy myself more watching it. I feel exactly the same way. Yeah, I agree with all that, except I don't think it was that faithful. Yeah, I was going to say, I will disagree. I will take the complete reverse position. Are you talking about like the the main character being a replicant thing or something else? I guess. Well, not really that more that they bring back. Deckard.  Yeah, well, I mean, in the original, it wasn't like there's there's a lot of evidence to support it. So I'm I I'm not personally upset that like they didn't take that route when creating the new one. And in terms of his inclusion in the new film, I think that if Sony had not been in charge of the marketing, it would have been much more impactful for the narrative because Harrison Ford was not supposed to be on the poster. He was not supposed to be in the trailer. It was literally supposed to be revealed at that point in the film, which is why it almost seems like kind of a misleading to put him in the promotional material because he's not in it very long. He shows up at like the halfway point.  And so I don't really I'm not like bothered by his inclusion of it. I don't know what the I guess logical inconsistencies would be with it in terms of the overall universe, because I'm not like a super fan of the original or anything. It's just a movie that I appreciate for its influence on other movies mostly and its innovation. But yeah, I really, really enjoy the new one.  But yeah, there are some logical inconsistencies. And I do think I mean, they would have had him in the advertising anyway. It's just I think that's inevitable. Blade Runner with Sony don't show Harrison Ford. That's kind of a problem for me is that I'm not invested enough in Blade Runner as a franchise to be able to like run down issues. But I had someone explain to me in excruciating detail everything's wrong with it after we watched the original on that one.  I did still really enjoy it as a film, I would say. I thought that it was a very like entertaining experience. But as someone who does like who loves the original Blade Runner and who likes the book, I see the problems with it. I think that you can, I guess, still enjoy stuff, even if it's inconsistent, which is, oh, speaking of which, I still have not seen The Witcher, and I am probably one of the people. Apparently, apparently, everybody on the Internet that I talked to is like, even review The Witcher because I'm a huge spurg about the books and everyone wants me to like debate razor fist about them. I think we would agree that Kalski is a hack. So I don't know what we would disagree about.  Oh, I haven't read the books. I've only played the games once or Witcher three once. And I watched the show and I thought it was enjoyable. There were some logical inconsistencies that I was like, but besides that, I thought it was like it's a decent time waste. I basically what I heard is that they couldn't stop putting like diversity in it every five seconds, which doesn't necessarily irritate me. But if it's just to be like, hey, look how diverse we are in this Polish drama. I don't understand. Now, if you want to see something really funny, watch the existing Wadesman, I'm pronouncing that wrong, I'm sure, even though I should know better. Let me put it this way. I tried to learn Polish so I could read The Witcher books in Polish before they were all translated. That's how much of a fan I am. I'm at Eastwick Clean. No, I speak Vulcan. There we go. I speak Swedish.  That's basically the same thing. You fall into my elaborate trap. Give us a me walk, then. No, well, that's fine, perhaps later. But I've upset a lot of people by saying that it's not good without being able to reference anything, because I've forgotten most of it. Like I said, the interaction I had took place, I think three years ago now. And like I said, I'm not invested in Blade Runner, so my interest waned and so does my memory. But I can bring someone on who apparently like is vehemently against the filming and probably try and deliver some explanation for it, especially while Adam is here, because I'm pretty sure he likes it. And it might be interesting. I like what? Sorry. You like that movie, Blade Runner 2049? That one? Yeah. Is there a smiling man coming on? No, different, different man. Oh my God, it's saying, I don't know. Like I'm not, no, no, it's not. I'm not, I'm not trying to set up some kind of debate. I'm trying to give some people some references because I know people are going to be upset if I don't provide something. You don't have to take my perspective seriously because I haven't got you any references for anybody who's concerned about that. Don't worry. But I'm not the guy who can look into it. I'm busy with other stuff and I just don't care enough about Blade Runner, unfortunately also get bigger. There we go. Hello. Explain why Blade Runner is bad. Well, it doesn't follow the rule set that was given in the original Blade Runner. And to have its setting, they have to basically erase and gloss over a lot of the stuff that defined Blade Runner's world in the first place. So you have replicants that are operating on planet earth, which they were banned from the original. And there's no explanation for what the advantage is for human beings because we're assuming that according to the 2049's disposition that replicants are seen as subhumans. It's their skin jobs, which is a callback to the original. And it invites the question as to why you would have a replicant being a cop in the first place. And why you would have a replicant who has to have a baseline test to go after other replicants because they might have emotions. But at the beginning of the movie, you have Ryan Gosling, Kay, basically saying that his kind don't run, which is questionable. In addition to that, the business model for Wallace and what he's trying to do doesn't make any sense because he wants to have open-ended replicants that can live forever and that can procreate, which basically means that his intention is to supersede humanity, but his business is based on serving humanity. So if he wants to be a god and in charge of humanity and try and advance the evolution, there's not really enough character explanation for why he wants to do that. What's his motivation? Well, I mean, there's characters that exist in real life that have very strange goals and desires that seem diabolical that are really not all that well put together. You could say the same thing for Thanos, too. Thanos is not a very super well... What's the word? Motivated character in terms of how it's justified. So yeah, I mean, what you're talking about, I can say it's legitimate. It's just not anything that really takes me out of the experience in any way. Okay, so what are the slave labor children doing on planet Earth? If you have replicant labor that is open-ended and can be created, what's the price of a replicant? Is it more expensive to create a replicant than a human being? And so what's the value of those children being on the planet? Is the idea that everybody wants to get off of the planet and go to the outer worlds, like was mentioned in the original Blade Runner? Well, I don't know where these kids come from. Was that described in the film? Where do they get them from? Are they just like people don't want them and just drop them off or like, I don't remember?  And I'm confused about what... So that's like free then, right? Sure, yeah.  And I'm confused as to what the point of that being in the movie is. Other than it's a way to mask how K was brought up. Yeah, yeah. I mean, like there are elements that are brought into the film purely for plot device, but I personally don't say anything like too egregious or, you know...  Like, if we're going to talk about these sorts of issues, I would say the vast majority of like large-scale science fiction films have these same issues to some extent. And that's not saying like, oh yeah, you're supposed to like it or, you know, I'm not trying to convince you that the movie is great, but just that it doesn't really affect my experience that much. Well, I have more. I mean, how does the replicant love get into the police station without triggering any cameras or like access? There's only one person manning the police station? Oh yeah. I mean, like there's a couple moments that had me go like, eh, but like it's part of the reason why I gave it like a 9 instead of a 10. You know, my enjoyment experience was more or less a 10 and there's, you know, a couple things here or there that made me go like, really, you know, but they're relatively minor. And I think that in terms of like weighing the film for my own experience, the elements that come together in the movie like the cinematography, the music, the performances, the like a lot of the effects are like so well done too. And it's really difficult to make effects in a movie at this point that are still able to impress like the, when they're sort of like sinking the two bodies over top of each other, there's things in concept in this film that if they were done by any other team would come off as like ridiculously fake or cheesy or just not convincing, but there's no real moment in this film where I felt like, oh yeah, that's fake. I was able to just like get into it, especially from a visual standpoint. Absolutely. I mean the original is the director of photography is Joden Cronenworth, who did an incredible job and you had Ridley Scott. I'm a huge fan of Sicario. I was just watching the movie.  Yeah, Sicario is a fantastic film. So that's the same team of director and cinematographer as Blade Runner 2049 and they bring the same game. However, the writer is different. And if you go back and look at the original Blade Runner, Hampton Fancher wrote the first draft of that script. But Philip K. Dick, Ridley Scott, and the producers didn't like the script enough because it was too pretentious and meandering. It didn't have enough grit to it. It didn't have enough realism to it and it didn't have enough like cowbell. It didn't have enough cowbell. So they brought in another guy and that guy ended up writing, he got an Oscar for, it's not Tombstone. I think it's Unforgiven, he wrote. And when they decided to make 2049, they only had Hampton Fancher and a guy named Michael Green, who I don't know any of his other work. And I think that that is probably the primary problem that I have with the movies, that it has a lot of what you're talking about, kind of thematic and immersive environments that bring you into the movie. But when you actually look at the logic of the movie, it doesn't really make any sense. So one of my biggest examples of the problem with the core of the story is that Kay looks at the previous Nexus and he's got this little I thing to detect its serial number. And my question is if Kay is a Nexus model, then he probably has a serial number because he's a product. So how come Kay can't detect his own serial number? It's potential that it was wiped or something or scrubbed in some way. I'm not defending it, I'm just saying that's a potential. If he's being used. If that's possible, then why didn't the other replicant do that? Why didn't he just take his eye out? I don't know. I'm just saying that it will be just because Kay's being used for alternative purposes. It could be that it's been scrubbed like you would scrub the serial number off a gun. When it comes to science fiction movies for myself, I am less bothered by open-ended questions that aren't explained and more bothered by very specific rules that the film sets up that it then contradicts. But I mean, like there's also a possibility of those existing in the film that just, you know, I didn't really pick up, but I'm more likely to call out something like Looper where they say this is how it works and then they just do something different versus it seems like a few of the issues in Blade Runner 2049 are more or less, why did this happen, how did this happen, but not necessarily, you know, again, I haven't put much thought into the ins and outs of these, but if there's any potential possibilities of explaining it, I'm not sure, like the movie was already like two and a half hours long. So to explain every detail of every situation might not work well for a story or pacing perspective. Who made you agree that a lot of the problems with the modern Blade Runner is more than it doesn't align with Dream of Electric Sheep and the original version, more than it is so within it's an internal consistency. I think there are problems with internal consistency in 2049, but I think that more of the problems arise when you compare it to the source material. Yeah, I really, part of the reason I loved it so much is that it did kind of do its own thing at the same time, because I'm really kind of sick of seeing, you know, soft reboots or remakes or sequels, especially that of 80s properties that are more or less just carbon copy, safe, you know, let's hit the exact same thing by be a Force Awakens style, right? I agree with that, but I think that I would like to stay away from a dichotomy of the last Jedi versus the Force Awakens where I don't want to have oh, we do it in one direction and it's super nostalgic and reflective, but it's ultimately hollow versus doing our own thing, but it negates the consistency of the story. So like one of the biggest... I think that there was a healthy mix though. I don't think it was like in one direction or the other. I think that it was still, you know, faithful to a degree and you might disagree with that, while still being its own product and exploring its own story and presentation. I don't think it was pretty level in that sense. So you've seen Blade Runner, what version would you consider to be the... not the official version, but the one that would define canon or whatever you would call it? I mean, I was told that it was the final cut, so I watched that. Right. But I haven't seen all the cuts for sure. I'd be interested in seeing the terrible narration one because it sounds funny to me, but... Oh, it's hilarious. It's just terrible. But that's apparently the one that Blade Runner 2049 is the sequel to because the circumstances of the final cut don't play into the premise of Blade Runner 2049. The idea that Rachel can get pregnant creates a new paradigm for what the series is talking about. So instead of her just being a test of a new version of Replicant that doesn't know what it is, she's now the first Replicant that has a womb that functions, and that's what Wallace is trying to follow up with. And then that also plays into the idea of is Deckard a Replicant or not? Because if he's a Replicant, that means that there are two Replicants that can have children now, which I think is what 2049 is trying to imply is they spring in the third act, that resistance storyline that seems like it's taken from children to men. So that to me is a huge change if you consider the final cut of the movie to be a definitive cut. And then the original cut, I think is the weak one where it says that they go and live happily ever after. And even that changes because it has to be a retcon. It has to take place 30 years later. Deckard has to be just like Indiana Jones where he doesn't know he has a kid and we have to go through this process to get to the nostalgic center of the movie, which is Deckard. And I think that a lot of these choices have made the movie subpar compared to the original one where I feel like I got a lot of philosophical and emotional satisfaction out of the arcs of the characters, whereas in 2049 I felt like I was watching the ending of Drive again. What would you rate the film based on its presentation while completely ignoring how cohesive it is to the original source material? I would definitely... You're just talking about cinematography, talking about miniature. To ignore whether or not the story is consistent with the original material, surely there are things to appreciate outside of that about the film though, right? Because that's the majority of the reason for me loving it. I love the films. The experience of the film for me. Yeah, I agree. Set design, the technical elements of the film all mesh together really well for me. Yeah, I mean, if I were to come out here and say that Deacons is not one of the best cinematographers of all time, then I would be full of myself. I think that Denny knew how to get the subtleties of performances out of his actors than I'd ever miss. So maybe I'm too cynical a person. I think I'd give that an 8 out of 10, and the two points that I extract are for missing Vangelis' qualities. I think that his soundtrack and the way that it immersed people into the movie and even immersed the actors, because Ridley Scott used to play the soundtrack snippets. Yeah, I heard about that. I watched a lot of the special features. Yeah, there's a great three-hour documentary called Dangerous Days about the production, but it's great. Yeah, and Razor Fist does an hour-long kind of condensed version of that, but it's like his favorite movie. But I'd take away from the soundtrack because I think that the soundtrack ended up being a little hollow. I think thematically and with what they were trying to do with K is an artificial human I think that some of what Villeneuve, what Denny does with... Villeneuve. Villeneuve, sorry. Like maybe Dead Cow and then Nov, like... Deliberately pronounce it wrong in different ways every time you say the name. N-U-H-V-E. It's a French-Canadian. Denny Villeneuve. Yeah, I think that he plays a lot of it in the... I think he plays out a lot of it in The Master, and they didn't get a lot of coverage in that. So some of the editing to me seems a little stilted and some of the actions seem to take too long. I think you could cut down the movie a little bit, especially the scene where he's walking towards the wooden horse. There's just a lot of time that's spent trying to build extra suspense where I don't think that there is. But presentation-wise... I don't know. It's beautiful. It's beautiful. Yeah, I really... I didn't have any issues with the pacing at all. I found it very... Part of what helped it so much is that it didn't really feel stagnant. It was always going from one place to another, and the set design of each location was so dramatically different. And like you said, the color palettes were dramatically different in each location. And so whether or not it's trying to build suspense in any given scene, I think that it was still very atmospheric. There's always something to kind of chew on in the movie. In one way or another. And that's part of why I think it's great. Would you say that there's another movie that does that similar thing where it may not be as logically threaded, but it has a lot of atmosphere to it? Oh yeah. Because I would say that Apocalypse now reminds me of that kind of... Yeah, I think that there's tons of movies.  Well, E.R., you probably have... You made a video about Blade Runner. Yeah, I totally agree with all that's been said, basically, other than disagreeing with Adam that the writing is just kind of feels it in a big way. Sorry, I didn't mean to... This is Glib, by the way. He's someone I've known for a while from the Disco, he's a friend of mine. This is not an ambush. I'm terrible with remembering what I feel is wrong with Blade Runner and I know that he has it on his mind. I just know, I liked watching it, but I don't know enough about... I can't remember... I enjoyed it and I've read the book and I've obviously seen the original and I'm a huge... I prefer the original film. I think the original film has its own flaws in and of itself, but I think that the new... 49 is so... It's a very enjoyable experience and that doesn't excuse its flaws, it's logical flaws with the plot, but... I do still think it's a good movie and I... And I know that I mentioned this before but I would just like to reiterate I still like trains.  And I still like girls. Yeah, I just... I just wanted to explain because I think there are a lot of people that don't know who I am, obviously, some people here. My background is that I grew up around the film business and I've worked in it for the last 10 years and I have a lot of interesting connections through that and insight because of that. So that's why I wanted to seek out people to talk to about it and learn because I have my own personal interest in trying to be a writer and director and I want to make movies that are going to upset this crowd of people that is gathered here because it's like this is the fun part is that we can actually produce better content. I will tell you this, my friend, if you're adapting anything that already exists you will always piss somebody off. Yeah. Yeah, that's true. This is the question.  I always do this all the time, I'm doing George's Dream of Electric Sheep that I really wish that they could put in the mood organ. Do you remember that, Aiden? Yeah. So I feel like that the idea of adapting something scares me for that reason but I think that there's a noble goal if you try to adapt something alongside the vision of the original writer and if you can get their approval then I think you're doing some magic. It can be. Again, I would go back to the Witcher which is always the case. The Witcher is a really good example of this actually because not only did Andrei Saposky kind of rip off of the Elric saga not kind of, he's admitted he ripped it off so you can't make him happy when CDPR, CD Projekt Red did everything that I could imagine in their capacity to try to live up to his expectations and to extend his universe still pissed him off.  That's the problem with adapting.  Thanks. Well, all I would say is that you are a better off going with an original idea. That's now in original ideas harder to sell it's not going to be as profitable, potentially because you don't have something backing it up but when you're adapting something it's the whole problem with Star Wars for example or anything else. People have read certain things or know certain things or get very spurgy about stuff with good reason in many cases where this thing wasn't a part of it or that thing wasn't a part of it and it stifles your own vision as a creator if you have to limit yourself to what someone's already created. That's all I would say. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think it's that much of a difference between the original and Blade Runner. Yes, there is. They bother adapting. I think that it's really hard to adapt Philip K. Dick's work but the central idea that he's starting with is so enticing that people try and make movies out of it. Has anybody here seen Paycheck with Ben Affleck? No. Yeah, that's what I thought. That was a long time ago. I think the most successful Philip K. Dick work was Minority Report. Oh, yeah. I remember that.  I think there's people that just don't vibe with the premise or the setting. It's a big one.  If they treat it like one of their other properties in terms of how heavily they marketed it I think that it would have been more successful. Do you think the marketing of the original or 2049 was the problem? I think did 2049 do poorly? It didn't do great compared to its budget. I think it probably made its money back considering all home video and everything but it wasn't a huge hit for sure. But Sony didn't really treat the film as though they wanted it to be a huge hit. They didn't really put out as many trailers as they should have for that type of property in my opinion. Sony has a lot of problems. I think that the movie is too down tempo for them to advertise it in the way that they're accustomed to because everybody wants to put all of these horns and blaring noises and stuff in their trailers. Every trailer is the same now and marketing with that mentality that people are going to connect to that. It's not an action movie and people would want it to be sort of an action movie. It's not really a thriller. It's kind of a slow boil and I can't think of very many successful mainstream movies or science fiction movies that are like that nowadays. I think that's relegated more to TV. There was something I just wanted to mention about the adaptation thing or the adaptation thing which is the death of the author being invoked. What would be a good example of that? What's like a movie that veers off that you guys enjoy? Was it adapted from a book? Oh no, I just meant the example of death of the author getting screwed up because of director disagreeing with the majority of fans' interpretation of the ending. I thought that was what you were going with. You're going with the book's canonical ending versus an adaptation of the book? Yeah, because ultimately the reason why I feel like 90% or something of the movies that come out are adaptations is because of the producers that are buying something based on its notoriety or its potential to be notorious. And then there are certain companies that focus on other things like Annapurna Hang on, Roadside Picnic Stalker is a good example but it's something where the adapted material really transformed it in a way that was unique and different from what the author originally intended. So I think that as much as good as Roadside Picnic is the Stalker games are their own thing. And I would say the same for what you're to a degree but there are instances where someone can take the shining. Any Stephen King work to be honest not any Stephen King work but there's a lot of them where adaptations are better. The Mist. The Mist film is 100% better than the short story.  I'll fight you. I was recommended it over and over again. I thought it was awful. Hold up. There's a good chance that you haven't even seen the real version of The Mist. Right there by originally wanted to present it in black and white. It's a very different experience watching the movie in that way. It really is. It's so much more obvious what it's trying to go for. The effects look better. The color obviously you don't have to do much with the color when it's in black and white. So everything just looks more even and pleasant. The atmosphere comes across much more as a cantilever homage to the 1940s era horror films which really gets it across and having read the Stephen King short I have to say that that film is by far and wide a better version of the story. It's like a Ray Harryhausen kind of callback movie you would never understand if you watch it in color unfortunately but black and white it's just so much more clear what it's going for and it's a much better movie. I feel like black and white would bring out The Mist and its quality A good chance they would improve it. I wouldn't deny that. If you don't like it, you don't like it that's but I think that it gives you a better idea of what the director was going for in terms of the original cut of the film in the black and white which does exist I think if you buy like the Blu-ray version or whatever it has Blu-ray disc too I was going to say that The Shining would be another example of a Stephen King story that was made into a movie in a different way and I think it benefited from that. Yes, The Shining is also another another film and again it's a lot of Stephen King because a lot of Stephen King books are good but somebody is able to take them and turn them into something that elevates them in a way or transforms them in a way that is interesting and different but still maintains some of the author's original intent and artistry. In the case with most of his Shawshank Redemption Stephen King is probably the primary example of this. That seems to be split on it. It's amazing it's terrible maybe it's that kind of movie I don't know. I think very much the myth is a split movie it has always been that way as far as I can tell since it came out I saw it in theaters and I thought it was really good in theaters and then I saw the actual cut of it and I thought it was way better and I think it's very much a love it or hate it.  You mean where everybody kills themselves? I watched it with a friend we couldn't stub off and we thought it was so funny. You films are as ballsy as that. I think it's very ballsy. It's very ballsy. You never get that kind of an ending in a horror film. I love that it's like the most depressing ending. It is because it's one second. There's campiness when you watch it again the way it was originally supposed to be seen. It has a weird feeling it's like if you've ever seen Brazil the original cut of Brazil was meant to have a happy ending but if you've seen the actual cut of Brazil that's a really ballsy ending to put a film on and I think the myth was a dangerous take for the director to do and I think it's one of the reasons why the film did so poorly in theaters is because people wanted the happy ending and if you think it's funny I can't argue with that obviously that's your take on it but I think that it was a really interesting film. Even in the black and white version part of why I enjoy it is because of its campiness but when you watch it in that way it seems more intentional than unintentional and it kind of changes the lens at which you view it as. So there's things about the when I first watched the movie the color version even though I enjoyed parts of it and I enjoyed ideas that it tried to communicate still I thought it was kind of bad but watching it in black and white after the fact it's like wow it totally changes your perception of how you view a lot of what's in the film in terms of what the intent is so when it's trying to mimic the color cheesy horror it's a lot more enjoyable of an experience when you know that that's kind of what it's going for right right because and in fact the director I'm sorry I can't remember his name but Frank Derbine. Yeah Frank Derbine because he worked on The Walking Dead as well which is like all the actors that are in the mist are in The Walking Dead but the thing is that yeah when you see it through the lens of the film being an intentional cheesy or a horror film it does change it because then you don't see it as being so sincere and serious and it becomes a very silly well maybe not silly but is the right word but it's a very different tone that you get from it and I would recommend everybody watch the director's cut version of it because it's fantastic in my opinion now I also think that the director's cut of Daredevil is a good film so don't take my word on everything Don't worry about controversial takes on here 2019 we've gone through seasons of controversial takes right Frank it's always been this year I think only those of us who are still in 2019 should be able to talk about it I mean you guys left you didn't stick around like us OGs did I'm just trying to set the table ready for you Mollers is gone I'm trying to get everything ready for you they drop me in this place I don't know what do you want me to do I'm just trying to get it all ready for you 2020 sorry I've not said anything for so long that I oh shit Jay's here I thought he was kicked and I'm sorry 40 is that your name I'm never about you I'm sorry my Swedish so we're already in the future so are we not allowed to give hot takes on decade ahead you guys want like lottery numbers hang on to that I need to reject so is that what's happening yes I must depart I have stuff to do and girlfriend time to spend well that's good she gets in the way of the TV mostly you women wrong with men what is wrong with men explain penis oppression penis oppression oh my god penis oppression that's bad penis please call some kind of number I don't know what number to call it's looking at me but I did want to say before I leave thank you chat for all the love you have shown the EFAP folks thanks for having me Mahler and it was nice talking to all of you guys I it's really funny because I've watched a lot of your guys's content like you know years before year plus singular plural before I'd even like met you so it's kind of crazy that like I've gotten to this point where it's like I can just hang out in a stream with you guys so it's always very fun thank you for having me yeah definitely and I hope we get to do it again sometime soon keep up the good work all of you funny talented fuckers and have a happy new year same goes to chat kisses to all of you and sorry that I'm leaving right as you're getting here it was definitely very interesting hearing your thoughts though I hope we get the chance to chat again in the near anytime man it'd be great I'm starting my own YouTube channel this is kind of a big plug and a dream of mine and happy new year man dude hell yeah I'll end you anyway uh fuck all of you bye that's that was chase face I'm gonna put links to every guest once this gets re-uploaded but he was on the last stream if you guys want to check him out chase face very easy to find YouTube do it how many faces is he actually just the one just the one I don't know but I'm gonna I'm gonna chase him down so we can talk about phone man see 11 because that's something nobody wants to hear wait yeah also fantasy one glib do you have an actual YouTube to plug now is that what you were saying um I'm finishing up my response to Patrick Willems and then I which I love how like of all the things you could be doing that's like one of the best ways to advertise yourself on eFap right now it's like I'm responding to Patrick Willems like oh my god subscribe subscribe certain things just have a give me a passionate reason to respond to and it's the storytelling language of star wars one um which is frustrating to me because I like the objectivity angle that you're coming from where there is sort of a uniform understanding of how films are made there's a a language that has to do with camera movements you know panning tilting trucking there's specific terms that mean something and Patrick kind of just shits all over it in his video he doesn't mention cinematography or a director of photography once in his video there's this thing is objectivity yeah so it's it's really frustrating because he's basically he boiled down his arguments to basically he thinks that subjectivity in a in cinematography is doing a dolly in like what Spielberg does or doing something weird with the camera like what diploma does and I just go and explain the reasons why star wars has a certain look to it it has a certain aesthetic and feel and you can't really go outside the lines but you can kind of bend the rules a little bit in your style and when that is ditched people start to tune out so when you get something that looks like resistance people aren't going to enjoy it and on the other hand people love those nights of the old republic trailer movies which are have star wars written all over it in the way that it's shot and the music do you want to throw a link in the chat so I can can flism it a bit I don't know if you want to or not well it's just a sure it's my channel right here I have a couple memes on it right now that's kind of shitty it's okay it's just so because a lot of people are asking for it and then I'll pop it in the chat so people can know that in the future they will expect a a response of a kind to Patrick willams this is kind of the last of his name oh for sure that poor man that line is not going on Ryza Skywalker ruined him I'm glad that Ryza Skywalker came out to the chagrin of all of the last Jedi imagine being destroyed by a fucking film you've never been destroyed by a film you've never lived I mean I've certainly been sad by one but I've continued living speaking of memes did any of you guys happen to see my terrible Star Wars no I haven't yet terrible Star Wars what meme oh no I got a hold of one of the I'll put this in one of the early well not early but a leak of a supposed thing that Doomcock posted and I made a video about it it's really all it's basically an Evangelion meme but the thing is I'm not ashamed of it because it turned out that it was all true in the lore it's true oh I wonder if we can split the the cast here on mad max fury road what does everyone think about that in terms of film of the decade oh my god okay oh god I feel like we're gonna have a discussion here because I was just talking about it the other day actually not just talking about it I was rewatching your video ER and I was rethinking about my opinions towards that film which is that I think here's my opinion towards fury road I hate the story I hate almost all the characters but it is so fun to watch I will say yeah I don't know I wanna see I love the heavy metal shit I like people playing guitars that shoot fire on the top of a car there's something that's very enjoyable about that to me is it a terrible movie overall from every objective stance yes objective from every way that you could actually critically analyze a film fury road is pretty shit even special bold statement very bold what about the soundtrack I can't remember it so what does that mean but that's not fit I don't know I mean I don't give the full soundtrack that much I didn't rewatch it I was just thinking about it so I was like I can't remember what the soundtrack was you'd at least give them points for practical effects right the practical effects are what's fun and it's fun again it's like fun to watch it's literally brain melting I guess you know what I mean your brain is a movie that is made to have you not think about what is happening in front of you because it's like oh wow this is very exciting but the story is the stupidest shit I have it's way up there it's not the stupidest thing I've ever seen but it's way up there with some of the dumbest crap and it's completely pointless considering what a big roundabout of nothing happens when they pour they free and pour the water all over the people I was like slamming my head against the desk I was like I can't believe you're doing this you're wasting 90% of that shit oh I know because it's just well no how many how about when all of the the bitches they have a fucking shower just shower in the middle of the desert where it's like we got this truck full of water which is more valuable than anything else in this weird wasteland and we're just going to take a shower and just pour it all over the desert the movie itself logistically makes absolutely no goddamn sense it's a mess and it and I think you already said this is like it's called Mad Max and Mad Max is not the star of his own film yeah but I'm told because I haven't watched the other ones that that's kind of a running theme in all the sequels yeah it is although I would also say you know sequels I think it's funny that sorry I didn't mean to oh I was just going to say that it's funny that the entire movie is based on the hope that there's this green place and then they have to turn back around when they run out of hope and then when I think it's funny because people were saying it's like a feminist movie and I thought it was like the least feminist movie of all time that like when the women take over everything goes to shit it's patriarchy seriously if you've seen what happened to that place one month ahead of time I think they'd all be dead yeah they would be the movie is so stupid in terms of they would all be dead because they have no idea what they're doing and it's a good point is that if you were living in a apocalypse Australia it would probably be better to be a sex slave that's a hey it's better than just farming for the rest of your life I'll be a sex slave let's fucking do it rags I don't doubt that you would prefer to be a sex slave would you it depends on who's slave I like autonomy I like sex but I also like autonomy I'm paying attention to the rule set and the resources of the movie when they referred to a place as bullet town bullet town bullet town and gun town or something like that they don't even have names for the places that are outside of the main oasis place I feel like it's a it's a very straight forward trip are you saying it suggests the writers aren't really concerned with the things beyond the action I think that they are not I think that they say something and then they present to you something that is extremely stylized and because it's so well made we kind of go back into realism and we forget that there's dirt bikers dropping grenades or going off jumps why would they do that because I can believe there's a place called bullet town in like a post apocalyptic world in gas town yeah I can like I legit can what would you call it I'm not saying it's unbelievable sex slave town I just like the idea is like there's only like three options I'm the mayor sex slave town well I mean let's get real it is absolutely the best everything about that movie plot makes no sense again I know I'm gonna get hate for this the fact that I like the heavy metal effects of it but I think you can enjoy a movie's visual effects while admitting that the movie sucks TLG very in favor of that the hyperspace scene in the last Jedi was cool made no fucking sense whatsoever but it was cool it was one in a million why did they say that I like the idea that he's like I'm fixing TLG it's like JJ no no no no no it's something terrible even worse somehow okay I wanna hop out here before I go Aiden you're like the only person who's likely to have seen other things right wait see what sorry you cut out for a second I'm about to say what have you seen either children of earth or death comes to time no actually those talk to who episodes well no I have children of man children of the corn no I haven't been so no I'm completely stupid on this you should watch both of those things and now I'm sad cause if you've not seen them well alright hang on let me get my notebook no I really will I write everything down children of earth and what death comes to time death comes to time as peak doctor here oh wait they are doctor who episodes then so I might have I don't remember the name children of earth is they're both spinoff stuff so death comes to time is like what was originally marketed as the ending of the classic series but it wasn't like an episode it was like audio stuff oh oh oh you know I'm just about the doctor who audio stuff I know there's so much of it I'm completely clueless it's a torchwood thing it is it's really good it's a torchwood episode it's the whole season the whole season is an arc then I've seen it I've seen every episode of torchwood so I don't remember what this is it's been 10 years that's even worse why would I rewatch torchwood I'm Welsh why would I rewatch that you're Welsh and be reminded of what the best are my people historically have to offer in terms of attractive women I didn't know you were Welsh yeah genetically I guess whatever high five I thought I was like the only Welsh guy on the internet I mean I'm an American but my whole family is from Wales they don't have like have internet in most of ways don't you guys make all that grape juice how is Moeller connecting to the internet right now then series of tubes he's in one of the series of tubes that's an ancient meme right there it is a series of tubes I feel like now that it's 2020 we need to bring back like early 2000s rage comics no we can skip that maybe those just maybe those stay dead I want to see like a series of like a series of ironic yeah it's ironic it's completely ironic that's the whole point but I'll check it out I don't really like I don't know the audio but I'll check that out because I do like audio stuff or the audio drama I've been trying to persuade Mewes to watch it and he hasn't done you haven't watched everything I know that well then what I'm suggesting is you owe me way more than I owe you that's true before I hop out I'm just going to see if anyone in chat knows anything about what I'm talking about I don't know most people don't know what you're talking about watching television programs children's cartoons Jay stop it alright I'm going to go bye bye Jay thanks I'll check it out yeah oh thank god Jesus hello Jay alright so we can actually talk about normal things now Doctor Who I have a suggestion for a good film of the decade or one of the best I know one of us or one of you agrees with me Captain America Civil War oh god careful why I'm asking to get triggered I don't really get too upset about other people enjoying things that I might not we do we hate it Marvel movies like they're just not for me I'm really not invested in them in the same way Star Wars I don't know I probably agree with this I just don't I think Marvel movies are so inoffensive in that they're so milk toast color by the book it's kind of like hard to get mad about them and that's how coming as somebody who's like a huge fan of the comic books I don't give a shit about Marvel movies that I can't get I didn't get excited about infinity war I didn't get excited about any of that shit it was just kind of like oh okay it's another Marvel movie but what is it causing you guys to not like it like what would a Marvel movie have to do to impress both better cinematography or writing or death no death is like so the presentation do anything different too many things different so that actually helped in that sense infinity war there weren't really stakes were they I know but for that movie there weren't when you got to the movie after that but for that movie there were some stakes I think so it ended in a way that didn't wrap things up in a nice happy bow I liked that it was also really well paced because they were forced to include so many different storylines that they cut out a lot of the fat usually in Marvel movies there's a lot of like kind of forced comedic breaks that I'm not really a fan of like I never really get too much into the humor and I found that that was really trimmed down for for infinity war it felt like every scene more or less had an excuse or a purpose towards being there it didn't really feel like it dragged on so that's really what helped my experience there when it comes down to like the overall presentation of Marvel movies they're not like terribly presented but they do kind of feel bland to some extent you don't really see much of the director's personality at all which is part of why whenever you got like a director who really wanted to have their personality shine like Edgar Wright that wound up getting canceled because you know then it would just conflict you explain James Gunn Marvel wanted the films to be like yeah James Gunn has like his own comedic personality but it's not so much in the directing style I don't think you don't think so? I think Godin's is very kind of there's elements there but nothing like nothing that I would really consider to be enough to write home about honestly yeah I just the music is really unmemorable for the most part there's a great every frame of painting video the scores of the Marvel universe and there's some response to it and debunked most of it in terms of my own experience with Marvel movies in general I would say that the biggest reason why I'm not huge on them is because they're alright to me there's nothing like so exceptional about the way that they're presented or really any element for me as someone who's not already invested in these characters I'm not like a comic book person so when it comes down to the presentation when everything is just like fine and especially also the story like you can kind of predict where things are going you know how it's going to end for the most part in every every film I want to see something that's either so terrible that I'm entertained or so amazing that I'm entertained but when we get down to like the middle of the road just like this was alright I really just like I prefer not to watch those movies when I could essentially take a Marvel film and imagine how it's going to be and get more or less the same experiences going to the theater when I could just sit at home and imagine it instead now I completely agree as someone who is invested in the characters who has read hundreds and hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of comic books I don't care and that sounds bad but it's like I'm honestly more interested in DC movies only because they're so likely to be terrible they are to be decent and I don't know what that is in me I you know I do know what it is I know what it is is that I showed up I used to go to Marvel releases in costume okay I was that kind of fan and I showed up to see Man of Steel in a costume and I'm a huge Superman fan and my friend who hates Superman sat next to me in the theater and watched every bit of joy and happiness and excitement drain out of my face and I have never felt anything about a comic movie since then that's yeah I understand that I waited four hours to see the premiere of Indiana Jones 4 I was excited to see an Indiana Jones movie in theaters and that didn't really go so well I kind of killed my enthusiasm but as for the MCU what did you guys think of the boys in comparison I'm looking forward to it at least okay yeah it seems like something that might be at my alley I don't do anything for me anymore I want something different from them let me put it this way the Marvel movies are following the exact same trend that the comic books are following which is that they kind of they go towards an actual stake if you want to call it that oh man like with Endgame people are actually going to die and then they immediately reverse it there was a really good story and this is reflected both in Marvel with Daredevil as it was reflected in DC with Green Lantern series in Green Lantern it was with oh shoot with Parallax and with Daredevil it was the story called Shatterland where in Daredevil's story they became the bad guys they became a true supervillain and then in both stories they got dropped because we can't let that character actually become a bad guy because they're the good guy in the Parallax storyline it was like 10 years of time that had passed so it was far longer for Hal Jordan to be quote unquote redeemed but I see the things that I dislike about comic books now being reflected in comic book movies and what I like in comic books particularly something that DC has done well and this is true is in legacy characters so we have Batman should pass the mantle to Dick Grayson who should pass the mantle to I don't know Jason Todd or whoever or to Damien Wayne that's what's fun is seeing the mantle pass having the same characters rehash the same stories rehash the same problems over and over again is boring and even for me as a comic book fan it's stupid but do stakes only have to be whether or not a character dies no it does not we had to see the character grow and change yeah but we have done that with several characters over the MCU and Civil War makes use of all of that in their story I don't know if they really did I think that Marvel has done a pretty good job I will say that Marvel has done a far better job than DC than Warner because Warner is shit but comparatively we have seen a lot of these characters change but I don't see where this is going forward I guess they had to introduce all new characters I want to see characters grow and change and then be passed on and if Marvel is willing to actually do that to be done with Captain America to be done with a lot of these characters then I'm fine with that Hawkeye for example is one of my favorite superheroes one of my favorite characters in all of Marvel and I like him in the MCU even though he is a completely different character than he is in the comics because he's had an arc we've seen Hawkeye be a different person in every movie that he's been in there are little bits of those movies that I like but overall I find them very predictable and because they're predictable I tend I guess I would compare every MCU movie is very much like Avengers vs X-Men as a comic book story which is that I know what's going to happen I know how this is going to turn out it will always return to the status quo and that to me is boring and that's just my opinion but again as someone who's been reading comics my entire life I don't want to see the MCU movies go the same way the comics have been going for decades I think that that's what's going to happen unfortunately is that we're going to have a bunch of obscure stories that are going to kind of unwind the big build up that the MCU has and maybe they'll try and go back and do an alternate version of the same characters because we've already kind of used up all the big money plotlines that people are aware of kind of like the Star Wars situation I'll just take the complete reverse position I think that the MCU for the past decade has actually been some of the most stellar mainstream character work we've actually been able to see from a giant corporation they've been setting trends and teaching people how the fuck this works with characters Iron Man's Journey is one of the best cinematic character development sequences I've seen for a major series I agree for a major series yes I guess that I'm being too harsh the stakes of Civil War through the roof on an internal level and then Infinity War is the external Civil War's question is will the heroes even be able to is it legal for them to defend the world anymore and how will they ethically move forward with that on top of the fact that they actually have a struggle internally that has splintered them completely so now half of them are vigilantes and the other half work for the government is fascinating to me I'm not like huge into it honestly like the in terms of like a major franchise having a character develop over time yeah it's one of the better ones for sure there aren't that many franchises that span over this long with this many films and stories within them in the first place and they handled it really well in terms of connecting it everything together well oiled machine and that's why you see so many other studios trying to replicate that and doing their own extended universe and what not when it comes down to the stakes I'm like usually in most like PG-13 superhero movies I don't really feel too invested in the stakes like even when it came to Civil War I just I'm not a huge fan of Iron Man I find them kind of annoying personally and when the conflict of that movie was like oh should we be able to save people or should we get the bureaucratic powers of the United Nations to sign off on it first I found that a little silly honestly like yeah the villain will wait they'll wait for you to get the sign off come on I don't know I wasn't really into that I would say that I agree with you that that's not what happens character development that has happened in the MCU has been fantastic for being a major motion picture franchise you do get like we do see characters like Iron Man in particular change although I also think that we look at let's just take Iron Man okay let's just take Iron Man he kind of stopped developing after a certain point and what point would you pick I'm ready for this fight let's go I'm as one of the best characters in like cinema history okay I wanted Iron Man to be an alcoholic in Iron Man 3 instead of having PTSD Iron Man 3 is the big fuck up but Civil War attempts and successfully fixes the fuck up of Iron Man 3 quite significantly making use of the PTSD while removing the fact that everyone's laughing at it it becomes like super serious and informs all of his decisions instead it becomes more serious here's the thing I think that the MCU takes careful steps in a lot of places because it is so calculated it's calculated in a good way in terms of being very entertaining for everybody but I do feel like Iron Man is barely a character in a lot of the movies that he shows up in afterwards like in Spider-Man Homecoming or even in Can I just interject really quick Yeah sure we can debate about Homecoming because I'm trying to separate the writing from the presentational aspects in my mind because I feel like my problem with the movie is that like it has kind of a boring palette to it and the CGI doesn't look very good and that combination with the kitschy writing is what makes it known as a Marvel movie and that can be done well and it can be done poorly but like the character aspect of it I feel like when you consider that this is a recurring series that has movies that are singular movies but then it also has recurring characters in it that are from other things they don't necessarily have to have an arc within that story that they're being presented in like if Iron Man shows up in an Avengers thing his arc isn't going to be the same kind of arc as if he has more screen time in his own movie so like if a character comes in and acts the way that you expect them to in a Marvel movie I don't think that that's a point against the story and I'm not exactly sure if it's the actual character and story telling of their arc that's the problem as much as it is the way that it's presented and feels like a TV show sometimes I think I feel like a TV show do you mean like it's a revert back to the status quo at the start of the new episode because that's I don't think it's on the creative writing side I think it's on the directorial production side because it's almost impossible right when you have so many people working on these movies to have characters and look it's I don't even think that because this is a problem in the comic books themselves as well is that any time that a writer takes over a character they give their own voice they give their own life to that character that's going to be different from another another writer and I feel like all I see that's happening in the MCU is exactly what I have seen happening in comic books for 40 years yeah but okay let me just break that down because I know I've talked to Maul about this before but I met with some people that are that worked for Marvel this guy that worked for the Donner company Derek Hoffman shout out to him I really like that guy he's a writer and he was working on an X-Men related show and he was basically the nerd version of the script editor he was in charge of making sure everything was fitting into the Marvel canon and and ultimately the feeling of Marvel comics in television format and he broke down to me that the priorities are the story first so what the script is entailing and what they're trying to tell the story you know the plot everything and then the budget is secondary and then comic book fans are the third priority because the actual subscription of Marvel comics is only like 200,000 readers or something and the mainstream audiences that watch Marvel content are mainstream audiences they're not comic book fans so even though I agree with like the fandom menace and all the comic book fans that are you know your boy Zach and all these people that are speaking truth to the comic book industry they're not the target market so oh no we're not no so when we see Civil War and we see the characterization of Tony Stark and Captain America's argument being almost inverted from the comic book plot line but it's still the comic book plot line we get a little bit upset but if we disconnect ourselves from that presentation and realize they're presenting these stories to the mainstream audience we I think you'll appraise it in a different fashion Mahler convinced me that the Civil War division is just as good as the one that's in the comic book like their values just understanding me I really don't like the Civil War comic book I much prefer the movie over the comic book the comic book was a shit show the comic book was a shit show for so many reasons I didn't dislike Civil War my only point was that my only point in all of this because apparently people are really mad at me now the thing is I might only point about the Marvel Cinematic Universe is that I kind of don't care about it that's my only point on it in terms of Civil War I thought it was one of the better movies I thought Winter Soldier was better I'll put it that way I like Winter Soldier better than Civil War and that Civil War was a great film I liked Endgame I liked Infinity War I thought well I mean Endgame I didn't like so much as Infinity War Infinity War was a good movie but I just don't have any more like emotional energy to put into these films when every single one seems to end with the status quo being resumed the status quo is destroyed by the end of Civil War was it though? yes yes well you guys like trolling me right now no it's been a while since I've seen it it's when a Civil War come out like five years ago so I have to do a Civil War video no no no please no because I legitimately don't remember it's been a while so what ended in Civil War changed the status quo as far as the government I'm not trying to be confrontational as far as the government are concerned Captain America Black Widow Captain Falcon not Vision Scarlet Witch and whoever else is on their team for lack of memory right now if they're seen they'll be arrested if not killed that's their position at the end of that movie and that position prevents them from being a united team for when Thanos attacks and there's a very good argument to be made that if they were all one united team they would have defeated him that's how Iron Man feels at the beginning of Endgame he blames Captain America for all of what happens okay yeah I guess but hmm I have to rewatch it I will have to rewatch it because I don't what was he saying how would they have stood up to Thanos at all I don't get that well they came seconds from defeating him if not for Peter as in Peter Quill fucking up um Iron Man fighting him one on one actually manages to put up a fight but imagine the rest of the Avengers being there that's the fault of Civil War that they weren't there sure they're not a connected team but isn't it kind of a coincidence that he got on the ship and was brought there all that Iron Man oh well he's reacting right and they meet up with Doctor Strange they're all in the city the Avengers compound is in or is it near New York yes it's in New York but the thing is this exact same stuff happens in the Infinity Gauntlet as well in terms of the original comic book adaptation they're not everybody is all together in the comic books as well I guess to me I don't know I guess because I'm looking at this stuff as somebody who's read all the original source material and I'm not saying by the way don't get me wrong because that is not what I'm saying is not that oh it's not close to the source material in fact what I'm saying is the opposite that the source material is boring and I'm saying as a comic book fan yeah but that's they chose this material because they ultimately had a meta narrative that they wanted to plan ahead of time and they needed a big bad and the biggest bad that they could come up with was Thanos Thanos is a great villain Infinity Gauntlet is a great comic it is a great graphic novel however I'm just afraid of George Perez but the thing is that what the failure of comic books is that they are cyclical in nature and why I have stopped carrying okay when the first couple of Marvel movies came out and I mean Iron Man the original Iron Man Thor even though it wasn't very good Captain America the first one which was also not that good but a lot of those early movies I was very excited for them the original Avengers and I was very excited for it but I started to feel like the movies were a little bit repetitive in that I didn't feel as if there was any stakes anymore and maybe that's me being cynical well if we refocus though so you said that the status quo wasn't changed if we just yeah yeah it has a status quo changed up to the end of the Civil War and you provided example of that and Avengers Age of Ultron and I guess most like the status quo does change at the end of Winter Soldier Shield is destroyed they're replaced by the Task Force which you could argue is less of a status quo change and I wouldn't necessarily disagree with you but then I would actually refocus on saying that the main status quo changes in Marvel are way more focused on character but Civil War shakes up the most of all of the Marvel films Civil War probably does the most with the because look now there's so many Marvel films that I have to even try to remember what happened in each one but does that remind you of the first time that you read the comics because that's my takeaway has been that it's been one of the most interesting ways to introduce the comic book experience to people that don't read comic books because most people don't know anything about this because when I think about my experience reading comic books and this is just my okay so this is my subjective experience which is stupid but it really is in my opinion but no seriously like I can think about times where I've read like X Factor and I can tell you what happened in this issue of X Factor and I could tell you that'll stop my head and I'm not saying that I can remember the earlier Marvel movies better than I can the ones that like Age of Ultron I barely remember I fell asleep now I know apparently that's my meme but I fell asleep during what was it actually one of the good X-Men movies Days of Future Past I fell asleep during I did watch it later but I fell asleep in the theater during that whatever it's so much and if you want to call it Superhero Fatigue maybe that's just what I get from it and I guess that is my own experience but that is my experience of someone who's read all the comics and so your mileage may vary on that as a superhero comic book fan my mileage is very being bored by seeing things that I read 20 well I'm not even 30 yet but seeing things that I read 10 years ago rehashed and not seeing a lot of now I would say that at the end of the total of the Marvel story you get a lot of character resolution Iron Man has a complete character arc Captain America has a complete character arc we see these characters grow and change but a lot of the individual films feel hollow I would say Civil War is one of the better ones but that's kind of what I'm trying to defend because you'll find I'm one of the biggest attackers of certain Marvel films like I think Captain Marvel is one of the worst films of like the mainstream it's just terrible like in every aspect of writing it's kind of insane Captain Marvel is what non Marvel fans think Marvel movies are yeah like I'll call a spade a spade I just I don't know just a lot of the arguments for Civil War often just run out pretty quick like Adam you're still here right you know like Hulk jumping around to save the world from the evil aliens that will destroy the entire planet is it okay if he kills a few civilians while doing that yes what about like a hundred if the stakes are everybody dies or some number less than everybody dies I think that this is just going to be a series of questions should anyone be accountable for the families of those people um so okay so in Civil War were they they were like I saw it only once when I was in theater so was there some sort of plot element of people seeking some sort of like damages financially or well we see that the countries are uniting over the fact that the Avengers don't seem to care about what they leave behind there's like this many aspects of the film um but not only that somebody directly implicates Iron Man as the reason why some die yeah yeah there was that kind of like a moment near the beginning where they were like you know all these hundreds of people that die from really far away in the Avengers actually they're real people we needed to remember about that yeah um yeah I mean like of course they're going to be like moral implications to it but when this when you're dealing with this kind of universe where literally there's characters that can just blow up the planet I mean if you if you got to act fast you should probably do that so let's let's have people signing off on every single action let's put a big tick on Hulk he's good even like even if we had those families in the room would be like guys he saved the world okay so fuck off all right good stuff next person cap uh downing the areas in Washington after he'd had them neutralized which actually goes against what captain fury wanted and his reasoning was these weapons in anyone's hands are too fucking dangerous so I'm going to crash them all and this people screaming he destroys like this enormous building and they're cleaning up the wreckage for it eight years later we got a throwaway line and homecoming to say that um so I mean like if if we're going to talk about Captain America doing something dangerous for no reason again it's not no reason a lot of people agree with this decision I think there's safety too because there's still shield agents on board all the hera-hera carriers so it's dangerous the thing is that they plan to kill millions of people has been neutralized yeah so I mean like the um what's Sam Jackson's character's name again you just said it Nick for fury I mean like if let's say they wanted to have some sort of system in place where there was a first in command and then people would be held accountable for their actions if they went against the orders of Nick fury then that would make a lot more sense than what I remember in the movie being as any time you want to be able to save the world you have to get like several nations to sign we're going to get in there like that's the issue that I had right climbing up the staircase so the current system was the shield took care of them and fury answered to the big council of the world council and Ross actually says that that was their setup but they can't let that be the setup anymore and this is what prompts this is age of ultron where iron man essentially nearly destroys the entire world himself there is no saving the world aspect because he caused ultron and then it gets punctuated by the beginning of civil war where scarlet witch makes age of ultron is my favorite bit of development for trying to start yeah I think that's the thing I felt like it was it wasn't not it was dropped okay okay so I really hate to do this because I have to bring up favorites on comic books okay wait wait wait wait we pause that pause that because I'm on a I'm getting there I'll put that to sidebar so with scarlet witch makes a decision to instead of blowing up a bunch of people on the ground floor she blows up a bunch of people in an upper floor she's made essentially a decision to kill a bunch of people to save a bunch of people and how come she gets to make that decision that's really that's this has to stop there has to be accountability if a police officer it all comes back down to that famous psychological train experiment or whatever well but we're dealing with five on each side of the track at that point she chose to save Captain America because of course she did it's an inevitability when you have this universe where people have superpowers honestly man like with Civil War I was so fucking glad they finally made that movie because I was like how is nobody picking up on this with world governments this is insane like the Avengers get away with so much shit and you might be like they're saving the universe I don't care if they're saving the universe when they get in this many people killed like how reckless do you have to be if you're saving a bus full of children from a terrorist inside it and you come in firing your machine gun you shoot them in the head and kill them you accidentally killed ten children as well you're like well you know I saved the bus there has to be accountability and that's what Ross is talking about there's actually spots on the map from other places that they could reference throughout the movies and if you give them the careful eye you're like holy shit there's some stuff they're doing in here that's really fucked and obviously they understand, they get it and so it's not, you cannot save the world without our approval if Thanos arrives with an enormous army and they're right outside of Avengers HQ which happens in Endgame they're not gonna wait for a fax from the UN to say they can do anything was that not the point of like was that not the main conflict no Iron Man literally cancels out the portion of the government's influence whenever he actually wants to he's just doing it to appease them in the film which is the position I actually agree with appease the governments but if something happens then you cannot wait for approval from oh absolutely not the same thing say for example there is like a Obadiah stain type character in like an African country killing a bunch of people with a giant robot suit yeah you might need to get some jurisdiction issues sorted before they go in and blow everything up but if we're dealing with an alien that's about to blow up the earth and he just arrives like go for it guys fuck the UN will get over it it's just a pragmatic approach we can't have the Hulk jumping on people every once in a while we need to actually have because again that's the whole point of the film all these families that get affected they got no one to account of that's the point of the villain he's got no one to go to his husband his wife his kid and his dad all died thanks to Tony Stocks well PTSD infused issues of trying to protect the world he's got no one to my issue would be like if my issue would be with the idea of if they actually did what it was on paper instead of treating it like a case by case basis um well I assume that's the point I take an issue with a perspective in the film not necessarily the film itself addressing it uh do you like do you like being Ross's perspective specifically because obviously Cap doesn't agree with that just Iron Man his perspective in the film and if you I mean like perhaps I don't know was there a point where he literally said like in the first half of the movie that he's just doing it to appease them but he'll still he'll still you know he said we need to be put in check but the people on his side say it's good to have one hand on the wheel and then by the end of the film he literally lies to Ross in order to help Winter Soldier the end of the movie yeah sure that's just Iron Man's position yeah I mean I don't know like all of us here if you guys said you'd rather be vigilantes I'd be like just agree with them guys like it's we'll be vigilantes eventually sure but for now just say yes and until something horrible happens that we have to go deal with and they punish us for that so be it but for now just say yeah sure we'll do whatever you want sure yeah I I agree with that perspective I think that that makes sense all movies a civil war on a misunderstanding yeah misunderstanding of what cap is principled the reason why he won't agree to this is because it's it's lying okay so he just agrees with Iron Man lying I'd say he disagrees with the entire premise that a government system could have any control over a group of powerful people because of his experiences with shield with Nazis and stuff and he doesn't want to yeah I mean that that Iron Man tries to tell them several times it's just the pragmatic approach it's not like they're actually handing over the keys to the avengers powers but that's how Cap Caesar even says it's like a that's where it'll lead and he sees the scarlet witch being trapped in the compound it's just a step toward that there's just control control the way nobody can control scarlet witch let's be really this is the saint I don't know a sniper could kill her you gotta be careful yeah she can get shot and die scarlet witch scarlet witch I okay I hate the people are now going like more comics with comics with comics but even within the MCU scarlet witch can affect reality she is a reality I don't exactly know where her powers fall in the MCU but in the comics and I'm guessing that's what they base it on she is a reality worker which means that what she does in the comics for example as it says one day snap no more mutants and there are no more mutants that's M-Day and that stuff all can happen so you with people who are omega level power like that you can't really lock them up and put them in a shield facility particularly when we know how shield is often infiltrated or corrupted which would go back to a witcher soldier that's not her power in MCU she does not she just she can't snap her fingers and turn everybody normal are we sure about that because I'm not only because that power didn't manifest at some point until later in the comic books but she's probability manipulation I guess more in the MCU they don't have a specific yeah they're not very powers if you were talking about telekinesis slash mind control yeah I remember watching The Age of Ultron that's confusing and I would say okay it's confusing because imagine if you had all these cosmic level powered characters and you had to actually have a story with all the characters contributing evenly I mean Captain America is the least powered out of all these characters besides Black Widow maybe they have to keep up somehow so they have to do some flashy action and if you have a character like Scarlet Witch who's apparently the most powerful character somehow you have to keep that like down so maybe she has a distance that her powers work at or something but if she has all these powers that we don't know about that are in the comic book you know we can't tell where her powers are because it's not in the movie I don't know either because the movies aren't clear about what her powers are so I guess like what am I supposed to base it on either way Ross believes that they can I don't know all I'm saying is that I don't know and apparently nobody else does either so exactly what the extent of Scarlet Witch's powers are I mean she's powerful enough to be an extreme danger if she became a villain which is a good okay which is a good point of the plot of Civil War that makes sense it makes sense because yes we know that she's got crazy stupid powers yes it should be tracked by the government but Cap's obvious concern with that is that well he sees it going into a fashistic direction that all makes sense that is honestly the movies do a better job of portraying the plot of Civil War than the comics do and that's true but I just don't see how that film ends up I guess I don't see how it ends up being significantly different than it was beforehand because that's the same problem the comics had as well to account for a bit of chat as well it says as much as I hate to say they're mad at both of us don't worry this is Civil War has a Civil War about it in discussion trust me as much as I hate to say but according to the Accords Mueller is wrong if you're referring to the fact that the Accords will say they cannot do anything without first the approval of the UN that's not what I'm actually arguing I'm arguing that in the case of a planet destroying threat they're not gonna wait for the message from the UN whether or not the UN demand that they do however the whole point of the UN taking control of the heroes is that when a family gets murdered they have to be like wait who's accountable for this like the government they sanctioned this this is the result of collateral damage I'm sorry that's how it'll work instead of well I don't know Tony Stark figured that that was the best way to go about doing that and it's like wow you guys don't even want to leash and it's like the second one is hang on there's three all a lying I don't think that's why Cap disagrees 100% Cap disagrees with the idea of a governing body controlling the heroes in any way shape or form he thinks that it's in the power of the individual he trusts people he doesn't trust organizations you think he almost says that verbatim third one is I disagree with your premise Tony outright says that he wants the Accords to control him personally nope he says that he wants accountability he wants them to be put in check he thinks morally that the Avengers do have a responsibility the problem is he more so than anyone else would feel that way because of Age of Ultron and he's not taking into account the fact that not everybody is as reckless as he is but he feels guilty it's consuming the shit out of him in that movie can I talk really quickly about Age of Ultron and my a little bit of issue there with Tony Stark so Tony Stark character is replacing Hank Pym in terms of who created Ultron in that situation but I never really got because what is so powerful in the original Ultron storyline is that Hank Pym feels like an Ultron in response is it's a father son relationship and I just didn't get that out of Age of Ultron and you could disagree with me on that I don't think it's supposed to be a father son relationship but it is in the comics and again I'm sorry but something that I thought was missing in that storyline is for Tony to truly feel like he created this it was his son because in terms of why Hank Pym created Ultron I'm not saying things have to be a 1 to 1 recreation but what I'm saying is what was powerful about that original storyline okay I'm not saying it needs to be a 1 to 1 recreation I'm saying what was powerful about that original storyline is that Hank Pym created Ultron to protect the Avengers and to do their job while they couldn't do it because they're actual people he created this robot and a lot of that is reflected in Age of Ultron Tony is doing his best but the father son dynamic was missing and it's something that I really wanted out of Age of Ultron I don't care if it's Hank Pym or Tony Stark I wanted that father son dynamic that I thought was really missing in that film because it would have been something that would have given us more to Tony particularly as somebody who is involved in this relationship with Pepper Potts that's something that would have I think really elevated Tony's storyline but was it missing because you were looking for it maybe it was but it's something that I think I'm just saying it was


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