In this episode of Mind Pump the World's Top Fitness and Health and Entertainment Podcast, we talk about legs, the lower body and why your legs may not be building and developing. In fact, we give you the five most common reasons why your legs are probably not responding well. We talk about everything from the best exercises. There are exercises that rank among all others when it comes to leg development. We talk about frequency, how often you should work out. We talk about ranges of motion and why that's important. We talk about nutrition. We mentioned recovery. Recovery is a big one. A lot of people don't realize that the recovery process is also part of the adaptation process. At least it helps fuel the adaptation process, which is a code word or science word for building muscle. Part of recovery is good sleep. Good sleep also gives your body the ability to handle harder workouts.  Now, one of the things that we mentioned in there a little bit is about, you know, of course, sleep. 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That's felixgrayglasses.com forward slash mind pump and get hooked up with free shipping and free returns. Also, before we start the episode, I want to let everybody know that our program maps strong is 50% off. This is a full workout program inspired by strongman training. So what does that mean? That means it's really good for building strength, building muscle, speeding up the metabolism, and you get to do exercises that you don't traditionally normally do. You've got exercises like snatch grip, deadlifts and farmer walks and circus presses. This program also really focuses on the posterior chain, the back, the glutes, and the hamstrings. In this program, you get everything you need to get an amazing shape. So and it's also half off, of course. So here's how you get that discount. Go to mapsstrong.com. That's M-A-P-S-S-T-R-O-N-G dot com and use the code strong 50. S-T-R-O-N-G-5-0, no space for the discount. All right, guys, let's talk about why somebody's legs might not be growing. I feel like that's a tough body part for people to develop quite often. Well, avoid it. I think you just first about why though it's tough. I think it's one of the reasons why it was tough for me, right? So it was really tough for me because it just, leg workouts killed me. Yeah, taxes you. Yeah, I remember doing a leg workout and just rarely ever feeling like I could get through it without feeling nauseous. Right, you know, almost. And to me, I didn't, when I first started training, I really didn't think I was, at that time, I didn't think I was going that hard. I was just that, man, legs just expended another level of energy in comparison to every other body part that I trained. And it might have something to do with me being six, three and having really long, lanky limbs. But I don't know if you guys could relate to that. That was my big issue. Leg workouts are always the hardest. They're big, huge muscles that you're using when you do exercises. And so when you're doing a, even a compound upper body exercise like a row or a bench press or an overhead press, which can also be taxing and difficult, you're using much smaller muscles. It's not expending as much energy. It's not using as much blood. And so it's just, it's just more difficult. Well, I just remember too, it, you know, back doing split routine, where I would focus all my attention on legs in one session, it was just like, it would take me good four or five days to, you know, be able to feel normal again. It was crazy. You know, to that point, that's actually a lot of the reason why I think I stayed with split workouts for as long as I did was because I could never do anything else with legs. Getting a full leg workout was just in itself. You dreaded it. Yeah. I was like, I can't pair anything else.   It's a problem.  Oh yeah. I've seen that.  Well, besides them being aesthetic and both men and women, now with women, I don't have to make this case as much because I think women know the aesthetic value of well developed lower body. A lot of guys though, don't necessarily understand this.  And I can hide my legs in, in jeans or in pants or whatever.  More often than not, not having legs that match your upper body is one of the top things. Well, I think that's just it. It's less about having massive legs and it's just more about symmetry. Symmetry's balance. It's pleasing to the eye. Totally. Totally. It's all balanced and well developed legs that match a nice body, signify health. Obviously, they're very functional. You use your legs more than you use anything else because of standing and walking. Your two legs, be able to walk on two legs is one of the things that makes you distinctly human. They're very important that you maintain a good level of fitness. Even if you just want to burn body fat and you're not really interested in growing your, you know, muscle or gaining size, I should say, you know, if you want to burn body fat, you do want to have a faster metabolism and the legs represent such big muscle groups that getting them stronger and to build a little bit has a very profound in comparison to other muscle groups. It has the largest impact on your metabolism because you're talking about again, such big muscle groups, but there are a lot of people that find that have challenges with developing their legs. They, they work them out. They train them. And for whatever reason, they're just not getting the response or the development that they may be getting from other parts of their body. And for, you know, for besides people who just don't train their legs, which is, that's obvious why your legs aren't responding. Besides that, I think there's some pretty common things that I'll see in people's workouts and routines that is preventing them from developing the type of leg muscles that they're looking for. Yeah, I think back when I was in the commercial gym setting, I saw a lot of machine options for legs that people were definitely drawn to because I mean, you're, you're in a seated position doing leg extension, you're laying down and kind of doing some leg curls and in some, you know, even just doing some leg press, like those, those are much less demanding and taxing on the body and require a lot less skill. And so it's like almost easier for somebody to just kind of just add that into the routine and then avoid the big compound exercise. It's a bit too pronged, I remember. Like here, it's one, it's, it's easier. And when you, when you look at, I remember like going into the gym and, and looking at like the squat rack, and it can be very intimidating for a young man or lady that's never really squatted before and been trained on how to squat properly. And you're in an environment like that. So yeah, part of it is the leg press, leg extensions are easier than the other part is too, is just the intimidating factor of being in this gym and being in a public area and trying to do an exercise that you've never really performed. And it is complex, you know, squat is, squat is not easy for somebody who's never been trained yourself. You need to know what you're doing. Right. So I avoided it for a very, I even avoided it as a trainer because of that, because I hadn't really, really worked on, on the movement patterns and getting good at squatting. And so, you know, I was known as a personal trainer in my gym. I didn't want members walking by and seeing, you know, this trainer who looks terrible squatting. And so I shied away from it. And you know, if I did squat, it was, it was at later hours or when the gym wasn't as pop, I remember that. I remember being afraid of doing it because it was difficult. So I just gravitated towards the exercises that, you know, the hacks, quads, and the leg press, the leg extensions, the leg, all the standard machines. And that was my workout. Yeah. Easily the number one reason, just generally speaking, the number one reason why someone's legs aren't developing, they're just not doing the best exercises. And here's a, here's something that, you know, I feel like I need to say it every once in a while, even though it's obvious. Not all exercises are the same in terms of their effectiveness. You might have two exercises, both working the legs, but one of them is going to produce tremendous results. And the other one will produce very little results. So there's a hierarchy of movements for your body in terms of what is generally more effective and what is less effective. And this is true for your legs as well. The barbell squat is number one. For most people, nothing will develop the lower body in the legs like a barbell squat. But there's, there's another part to this. It's not just barbell squats, it's barbell squats performed properly. This is the next piece to it because sometimes I see people do the right exercises and they do them wrong or they do. So you got to do the best exercises, but you got to get good at doing them the right way. So pick the best exercises and then practice them often. And don't, don't let that get you scared either. Like, because the process of getting good at it, there's a lot of gains that come with that. That's where a lot of the gains come. Right. So I think that's important because someone hears that like, Oh, be good at it. I know I'm not going to be good at it. I haven't done it ever. Nobody's good at anything. But that's okay because, and I hate that there's even debate around this right now. There's, you still see people posting on social media and telling me, Oh, you don't ever need a squat. This exercise is great. And I, and I hate that because for, for me, admittedly telling you that I've never, I was never somebody who regularly squatted when I was a young kid, lifting and even in my early 20s, one of the biggest game changers for me in my lifting career was practicing squatting and getting good at it. And it still amazes me the effort I have to put to maintain the size on my legs today compared to what it was in my mid 20s. I mean, I just had to crush legs every week just to keep them where they were at and by no means were impressive. It wasn't until I started to squat and use all the squat and deadlift variations that I, did I get good size on my legs? And then it became really easy actually to maintain as long as I squat. Literally, like right now, if I squat once a week a good squat session, it's enough to maintain good mass on my legs. And I've never found another exercise like that, that maintains the size, not the hack squat, not the leg press, not to say that none of those exercises don't have their value or don't have a place. It's just they just don't even come close to comparing the benefits of the squat. Well, speaking back to your other point about feeling judged and going into the gym, I think that's a really big part of it, especially for men specifically, because you don't want to put on weight that you feel like everybody else in there is going to mock or make fun of you for.  And that's what it takes, but that specific exercise will give you the biggest return. And so it's definitely worth it.  Here are the exercises that you should be doing if you want to maximize your leg development. We just said back squat, that's for sure. But there's a lot of squat variations. The front squat in particular, I think is should be up there. You have exercises like the deadlift. Now the deadlift does work the back, but it's also mainly in fact a hip exercise. So it's phenomenal for the legs. Bulgarian split stance squats, lunges, good mornings, hip thrusts, those exercises that I just listed are the best by far. You know, I went through a period, I think it was a sophomore junior in high school where I put on something like 13 pounds of lean, mostly lean body mass was the biggest, the fastest gain in lean body mass I've ever done in my entire life. I gained more weight later on as an adult, but it wasn't lean body mass. And it all came from two exercises back and front squats. Now up until that point, I did work out my legs. I did leg press, leg extension, leg curl and hack squat. Those are the movements that I did. And they gave me some, you know, effects. I did notice some strength, some muscle gain. Luckily for me, my upper legs respond pretty quickly. So I got something out of them, but it wasn't until I got good at back squats and front squats that I didn't see the, that's when I saw the results really come to fruition. And it was like, it was huge. It was like nothing else. Those movements belong in your workout routine. And if your legs are not responding well and you're not doing those movements, the first thing I would do is put them in in regular rotation, get really, really good at those exercises. Back squat, the front squat, deadlifts, split stance movements, like your lunges and your Bulgarian squats. Good mornings, hip thrust. Those are the best ones by far. I had a very similar experience to that, but it was back squat and it was a power clean, which is basically a front loaded squat, but with, you know, with power added to it. And for me, I was the guy that was always doing bench press and I was doing overhead press. And then I would just kind of do some machines for legs because it was so taxing and it wore me out, you know, going back to do an athletic pursuits and all these types of things. But that, that single instance where I was starting to learn the back squat and power cleans, like my entire body changed, my upper body changed. I was able to gain a lot more mass, like overall was crazy. I went through the exact same thing. And then I went through this phase where I, it started to come together, but it didn't come all the way together for me because what I did, okay, I see, I need to squat. And so then it was intermittently in my training. This was my mid to late twenties was like, okay, I see the value in it. I just got to make sure I do it every once in a while. And then it got to the point where I was like, okay, what if I put a lot of energy and focus on just getting good at deadlifting and squatting? And that was when I saw the greatest gains from my legs. And again, the least effort, I felt like I wasn't having to crush, crush the leg exercise or crush, crush the leg workouts every single time I went to the gym. As long as I had some good deadlifting, good squat sessions every single week, my legs were responding and growing. And it was blowing my mind on the, the amount of effort that I was having to put. And then if you start to build some volume into that, right, like I liked, I'd like to get to a place where all those exercises that you're listening, they almost all make it into a week, every week.  And so at first you'll go through or not guaranteed, but if you go through the same phase that I went to where you start to realize, oh, wow, these are good. Okay, I need to get them in there. And you start intermittently doing it, but still the bulk of your workouts are these leg extensions, hack squats and all these machine exercises. That'll help a little bit.  Totally. Now I had mentioned earlier about not just doing those movements, but doing them well. That's also very, very important. Here's the biggest part where people tend to screw up, even when they're doing the right exercises. They don't use a full range of motion. I would say this is the second most common reason why people's legs aren't really developing the way that they'd like. And you, you know, I talk to people and they'll tell me, listen, my legs just don't seem to respond. I'll look at the workout and I'll be like, well, okay, I see some back squats and front squats and it looks like you deadlift in here. So you're doing the right exercises. Would you mind if I watched you do your leg workouts? Oh yeah, absolutely. And like clockwork, their range of motion was terrible. They wouldn't do a full squat, either because they couldn't or because they were afraid to do a full squat because they didn't want to lighten the load. So they wanted to keep the two plates on the bar and going down all the way meant they'd have to take a plate off. So forget that. I'd rather do this, you know, not full squat or whatever. So those are the two main reasons I would see that, but range of motion is very important when it comes to muscle development. This is for all exercises, by the way, studies are pretty conclusive with this. And by the way, if they weren't conclusive, the way you would see every bodybuilder ever work out would be very short ranges of motion because you would be able to use more weight and it'd be a lot easier. But it's the full range of motion that really gets, first off, it recruits the most muscle fibers. You have your muscles are made up of muscle fibers and you recruit the most of them when you do a full range of motion. But it's not just that the strength gains that you get with the full range of motion are more broad than the strength gains you get with a short range of motion. If I squatted down four inches, most of the strength I'm going to gain in that particular range of motion is going to be to that range of motion. I'm going to get really strong at that four inch squat. And as I go lower and outside of that, I dramatically lose the strength that I have in that four inches that I practice with. But if I do a full squat and I get stronger in the full squat, the strength things go to that full range of motion. It develops your legs much better. So here's the thing, if you can't do a full squat, because it throws off your form or it doesn't feel comfortable, work towards getting to that point. Not to mention, you don't go full range of motion, you're going to limit the potential for you to go through a lot of these other movements. So you're going to create a lot of imbalances that you're going to have to work through, say, you're pairing that and then with the post to your chain. So these muscles that are supporting this from your backside doing a squat. So you got to consider how the body is a whole, like we talk about symmetry and balance, to be able to go through this full range of motion is optimal for you to then get through the proper technique of the exercise. Part of this game too of building great legs is longevity too. And the ability for you to continue to build and build and build year over year because nothing happens overnight, especially when you're trying to build and sculpt a physique. And the thing that I was missing on all this when it came to full range of motion was how much training in a short range of motion would end up limiting me later on and not limiting me in the capacity of building muscle. But because I wasn't able to, I started to see things like my low back starting, I talked about bursitis in my hips. And a lot of that was because I kept training and loading and loading and going heavier and heavier in the shortened range of motions would then ended up causing issues in my hips and in my low back, which then caused me to squat less because then when I would do it, occasionally my back would be on fire and it bothered me. So I started to avoid it and I was afraid to be doing it all the time because I always would suffer the next two or three days. So it's not just about, Oh yeah, we're going to recruit more muscle and that's a better way of training. Yada, yada, yada. It's also about longevity and consistency and taking your body through its full range of motion is the healthiest way to keep your body healthy long term. And that was one of the things that I was missing and was an absolute game changer for me when I got to a full squat. If you don't consider like a stabilized joint, how to stabilize it, we got to really express this full range of motion and find the weaknesses there. And that's, that's a great way to address that. Well, if you don't train a range of motion, you eventually lose it. This is just the fact of the human body. If you don't walk all the time, eventually it'll start to lose the ability to walk. And that's a fundamental human movement. Forget full squatting, lunging and deadlifting. You don't practice full range of motion, you start to lose the ability to do it. But here's the thing too, a lot of times people will say, Well, you know, I do full squats, but I don't get well developed hamstrings and glutes from it. Well, it could also be your recruitment pattern. It can also be the fact that you may maybe are going all the way down, but you're not doing it the right way. You don't have the mobility to activate the right muscles. So it's not just range of motion. It's also proper range of motion because a good, for example, sticking with the barbell squat, a good proper full range of motion barbell squat works the legs top to bottom hamstrings, glutes, quads, believe it or not, you can get some calves with a good full range of motion squat. I would be hard pressed to, you know, I would challenge anybody that said that too.   Yeah, you know, it just wouldn't be, it wouldn't be mechanically possible. If you can get down, where you hear somebody saying that I can't develop my hamstrings and my glutes from squatting, it's almost always somebody who is short in range of motion and is forward on their squat. They squat down to 90 degrees, their chest falls forward, the quads are carrying all of the load.  In order for those hips to come forward, the hamstrings and the glutes have to activate. So even if you're not predominantly filling it in the glutes and the hamstrings, I mean, that was one of the biggest thing. And the reason why I would challenge that is that was one of the things that I actually was really surprised that I was like a secondary effect. You mentioned calves too, I noticed that too. When I started deep squatting, I started to notice my calves growing just from deep squatting. I also noticed my hamstrings were getting sore. That never happened to me in early years of squatting. When I would squat, it was all quads, maybe a little bit of glutes, but I never felt my hamstrings really get sore from squatting. When I started deep squatting, man, sometimes I actually even feel it in my hamstrings more than I feel my quads.  Look, here's the deal with range of motion. Lighter weight with a good full range of motion is far more effective at developing your body than heavier weight with a shorter range of motion. That's how important range of motion is. Full range of motion is more important than the weight that you're actually lifting. No joke. As long as intensity is controlled, the range of motion is more important than the weight. So if you need to go way down on the weight, if you need to cut the weight in half in order to perform a good full range of motion front squat or squat or Bulgarian split stance squat or whatever, then do it because that's very important. The third most common reason why someone's legs aren't developing the way they'd like is they just don't work out their legs frequently enough. This is more common with leg training, I think, than with anything else. Biceps, people like to work those out all the time. Chest forever. Yeah, core. Some people like to work out their core quite a bit. But for whatever reason, sometimes people think legs should be done once a week. The legs have a tremendous capacity for workload, tremendous. When they're well-trained, they probably have the highest ability for work capacity, maybe up there with your forearms and calves even. So in my experience, most people respond best to working their legs in between two to four days a week. I've had clients who adjusted their intensity and were able to work their legs five or six days a week. On some of those days, they were low intensity. But when they did that, they got phenomenal results. Frequency is very important for muscle development. And the legs love frequency. They love it. Well, you highlighted an important point about adjusting your intensity. And I think that that's one of those things you really have to figure out. And once you unlock that key and are able to understand it, that you can add legs in throughout the week, it just doesn't have to be such a hammering experience every single time and sprinkle it in.  Well, I don't remember when the study was done, but you remember the study that compared the one time, two time, three time a week when volume was all equated the same and that it was the people that trained the frequency of two or three was as good or better than somebody who was doing it in one workout. I remember the first time that I read that. I don't remember when the study was first done, but I do remember the first time that I read that and started to apply that with my legs. And that was it. That was a game changer for me. It was no longer doing 20 sets of legs in one workout one day a week. Now if I spread that out over three, three workouts or even four, sometimes like Sal's alluding to, man, it was so much easier. I get a leg workout. And I remember the challenge here, right? If we're speaking to a brand new person, not so challenging, speaking to somebody who's an advanced lifter or someone who's been lifting for some time now, the hard part is the mental switch. Because I was trained for so long that I needed to crush every workout and I had to get after it like that to just stop after five sets. I almost felt guilty at first. Oh, this isn't enough. Am I doing enough?  This isn't enough. And so I'd still keep stretching that even though I knew I read the study. I knew if I spread it out over three days, all I really needed to do was five to seven sets of a workout and I have plenty of work for my legs. I still struggled with that mentally and I'd be at five or seven and be like, Oh, I can do, you know, I'm used to doing 20. I could do 10 then.  So I think the mental hurdle that people have to go through that takes a little bit of time to figure out exactly how to apply the right intensity so that you can increase the frequency. Yeah, you're better. Instead of doing 15 sets in a workout, you're totally better off doing five sets over three workouts. The body just responds better. But here's another reason why that's a good thing. All those exercises that I mentioned at the beginning of the episode, right? The back squats and front squats and deadlifts and Bulgarian split stand squats and lunges and good mornings and hip thrust. All of those have two things in common. One of them is they're super effective. The other one is they're super technical. They're very technical. And the best way to get good at those exercises is to practice often. You're better off practicing. For example, let's just pick one movement. Let's just say it's a front squat. Let's say you want to get really good at a front squat. You're better off practicing a front squat for five sets, three days a week than you are for 15 sets in one workout from a skill perspective. Forget the muscle gain, the strength gain. Forget everything else. Three days a week at five sets, you'll get better at it faster than if you just did one a week, 15 sets of that exercise. And that's not just muscle. That's almost anything. We've given examples of learning a language or anything else. Frequency King. Yeah, that's just it. Would you rather cram one day of learning another language all in one day or break it up over three or four days in the week, you're going to learn much quicker doing it the other way. That's just how the body responds to things, not just muscle. It's just learning that process. Familiarizes it. Right. A big part of building muscle is also developing the central nervous system through the process, because it's not just the muscles that are developing. It's also the connections to the muscles. It's how they fire. It's how the brain perceives the stress from the exercise and how the brain fires those muscles and how it teaches those muscles to react and respond. And the central nervous system adapts very well to frequency, much better than it does to intensity. That's for sure. So even if all other things were equal, even if, you know, you know, working your legs out for 15 sets and one workout was equivalent to five sets, three days a week in terms of how it's stimulating the muscle out stuff. When you add in the fact that the frequency is going to make you better at the exercises faster, that alone makes frequency a superior, makes more frequency superior to less frequency. Now the next one, this one, I see this in people who tend to be afraid of getting fat. This is in people who want to, you know, maybe were heavy before or they're just afraid of the scale moving at all. They want to build their legs. They want shape in their legs.  The next reason why people's legs don't develop is they just don't eat enough to give their body the fuel that it needs. Right. They're not supplying it with the building blocks to create muscle. That's right.  You can have a great workout. You could have send all the right signals, do everything right, but if your body doesn't have the raw materials to build with, it's no different than me hiring a bunch of workers to build a house, giving them all the plans, giving them the green light, and they're left there with no wood, no concrete, no bricks, no shovels, no nothing. They're just them build the house out of thin air. It absolutely isn't going to happen. You have to have excess calories and nutrients in order to make this happen, and don't be afraid of this. Now, you don't need to do a whole lot more. Typically, about a few hundred calories above maintenance will do this for you. By the way, if you need to figure out what your maintenance is, there's a couple ways to do it. The accurate way, the most accurate way to do it is to track your food over the course of two weeks with a food app. Look at those calories, and if you're not gaining or losing weight over that two weeks, well, that's probably your maintenance. But if you want to start with a good general estimation, you can find online, they're called TDEE calculators. These things figure out your total daily energy expenditure, which includes your metabolic rate and your activity. I know we have one on our site. I think it's mapsmacro.com, and you can go on that page. You'll find a link for the TDEE calculator. Go on there, figure out generally how many calories your body's burning, and then add a couple hundred above that to give your body what it needs to build muscle. Well, the beautiful part about this, too, is we talk about the benefits of strength training and speeding your metabolism up. I think you saw that probably the most challenging people that I had with this were my petite female clients or a client that had lost a lot of weight, and now they're lean.  And then I say, okay, well, then what we should do is we should really focus on strength training, and we're going to increase your calories. And they freak out because they're like, no, I don't want to put any weight on. I just want to shape my legs. And it's like, that's what shaping your legs is. I think there's a misunderstanding on how this works. When you train your legs, it doesn't just naturally shape your legs. You have to give it the calories and nutrients to build muscle, which then gives you the shapely legs or shapes the legs like you want. And so getting them to understand that and be okay with adding calories.  Like think about training your biceps really hard and how many extra calories and nutrients that needs to help build a little bit of muscle there versus training your legs and the amount of calories and nutrients that it probably needs. That's a lot more. Right. Yeah. And we don't have, I wish I had the studies to be to be precise about that, but you can definitely guarantee that when you lift and train legs, just from the amount of calories you expend and the fact that they're bigger muscles, that you're going to need more nutrients, more calories to build that area. But that's the beauty of it is you add five pounds of muscle distributed amongst all of your entire lower body. That's not going to, it's not going to look like you gained five pounds of weight. It's going to be evenly distributed throughout your entire body. You have better shape. Yes. You have better shape and faster metabolism, better contours. The wonderful thing about the lower body is it's muscle. So, you know, when we talk about curves, people, you know, refer to the lower body in the upper body. Unfortunately, you can't build your breasts with muscle, but you can build your lower body with muscle. And that's what happens when you add muscle to the lower body is it shapes. You get more glute and hamstring curve and quad and calf. And that's the result that a lot of people who are afraid of gaining are looking for. And if they don't realize that they just have to gain muscle to accomplish that. There's another category of people that have tough time with this. And those are the people that don't realize they're not eating enough. They think they are, but they're not. And the reason why they think they are, they tend to be the people that eat a lot, you know, four or five days a week, people with really fast metabolisms, those hard gainers, right?   That Saturday and Sunday screwed you up for the whole week. I'll give you a little, some easy math. Okay. Let's say you need to consume 2,000 calories every single day to build muscle. Let's say that puts you at a surplus. It's unlikely. That's a low number, but let's just for, for argument's sake, it's easy to manage those numbers. So 2,000 calories a day over the, over a whole week, seven days in a week, that's 14,000 calories. So your goal would be to hit 14,000 calories. Well, let's say Monday through Friday, you hit those 2,000 calories and you did a great job. Well, there's 10,000 calories right there. You got 4,000 more to hit over Saturday and Sunday.  You eat 700 calories less or 1,000 calories less, less on both days, which is easy to do. That's skipping a meal, sleeping in, forgetting, you know, the stuff that we all tend to do. So Saturday and Sunday, you only 2,000 calories total for both days. You're at 12,000 calories for the week. You've missed your target by a full 2,000 calories. You're not going to build any muscle. So for those of you who are listening to those, those fast metabolism types, which I can identify with, that's me, the hard gainers, you got to eat more and it's got to be every single day. It has to be consistent. And we didn't touch a lot on this, but protein is so important. And what I see more common on what the example you just gave, Sal, is less of like, oh, I hit 2,000 every day because that's a female's number, right? More likely.  They're not good building calories. Exactly. And they, and then they grossly miss their protein targets, right? They miss the, the essential macro nutrient that they need to help assist them building muscle. They over consume on things like carbohydrates, alcohol, sugars, things like that. And so they may see the scale stay about the same because they've hit the calorie intake they need to, but they are missing the, the nutrients that they need to, in order to build and continue to build muscle. And so they get stuck in this predicament of, I don't understand why I'm not building any more muscle, but you're still not just because you're giving the calories to the body ought to, if you're not giving it the right building blocks to do that, you'll also be, be stacked. Yeah. So for most of you listening right now, you want to aim for close to one gram of protein per pound of body weight right around there. A little bit less than that. Perfectly fine. If you are obese, if you're, if you're over 25 pounds overweight, I would use your lean body mass as your target for protein. Now the next one, the last reason, most common reason why people's legs won't grow is a difficult one because for with, you know, this, this one deals with people who work hard and do everything, they, they do everything right, but they overdo it a little bit. And it's, it's hard to talk to these people because they're not lazy. Right. It's not like you're dealing with someone who's lazy or you're dealing with someone that's not hard work always pays off. Yeah. It's like you're dealing with somebody that I'm doing everything. I'm doing everything. I'm doing everything real hard. These are the people that don't take recovery or, uh, you know, applying intensity appropriately, properly. Um, they're not recovering. They're not giving their muscles the time that they need to build into adapt because if they're constantly under assault through too many workouts or too hard of workouts, or if they're constantly trying to heal, because remember your body adapts, but it adapts and it heals separately. Oftentimes it happens simultaneously, but healing it's like this, look, if I cut my hand, the healing process would be to heal the skin. The adapting process would be my skin then forming a callus over where I just got cut. So that next time it's going to be harder to cut my skin, building muscles and adapting process. Recovering is a healing process. Okay.  So adapting is very important. The way you do this is by manipulating your intensity. So we talked about frequency. We said, you know, work your legs three days a week or four days a week.  No. For most of you, you may have two really hard workouts and one lighter one.  You want to manage all this and give your body the ability to recover and adapt and build. This is a super difficult one because initially a lot of these people will see results and they'll see drastic results and they're pushing their body to new levels that they weren't before. However, they're trying to maintain this crazy amount of volume and intensity, and either they end up hitting a burnout where they hit a wall on the plateau or they start having negative gains as a result. And so, yeah, more is not always better and hard work. Yes, it does pay off, but it's also like finding that perfect dose, that sweet spot where you do allow your body to then build itself up to then overcome these stresses. The work is just the way to get what you want. The work itself isn't necessarily what you want. Does that make sense? I'll give you an example I used to give to my clients when I would have this conversation because it's hard to understand. You think, well, what do you mean? If I just work harder, shouldn't I get better results? Not always. If you had two people, both of which had to dig a five-foot hole, and if I gave one a shovel and another guy a spoon, and I said, go for it, but the goal is to dig the hole, the guy with the spoon is going to be working a lot harder. They're doing way harder work, but are they accomplishing the objective, nearly as fast as the person with the shovel? Of course not. If your goal is to just work hard, then who cares? Go and work hard, but if your goal is to build your legs and build muscle, then the work is part of what gets you there, and overdoing it, oftentimes, or overdoing it always gets you there slower and not taking recovering adaptation into consideration. Well, when we talk about this, too, we have to discuss food and sleep, too, because that goes hand in hand with the recovery. I think the people we're talking about that are most guilty of the overtraining are also guilty of this.  They have a bad day of eating, they didn't get a lot of calories, they were busy because they're Type A, they're go-go, they had a long stressful day at work, and then they didn't have the best night of rest, but hey, tomorrow's leg day, and you go in and you crush it, and you crush your workout, not listening to your body, so they go hand in hand. This all plays a role in recovery. If you're not sleeping well, you're not getting adequate calories, and then on top of that, you're also over-applying intensity. This is the recipe for a hard plateau, and I find that those people that we're talking about that fall in this category is this is one of their hurdles. This is all the other areas that they need to address. So, addressing stress in your life, addressing sleep for the person who also loves to apply intensity, I find that's the same person. Yeah, well, sleep, good sleep just maximizes your body's capacity to recover and to adapt. Poor sleep lowers that tremendously. So, if let's say you're fully healthy and you get good sleep, then you can maximize and take advantage of, let's say, five sets of legs three days a week. But if you get poor sleep, maybe that drops down to one set three days a week, you know? Now only one set your body can tolerate. Now you're only going to reap the benefits of one set. See how that works? So, maximizing the other parts of your life that allow you to recover and adapt better, make a huge difference in all development, not just in leg development. We're talking about legs here, but this has to do with the whole entire body. By the way, one great way to help speed up recovery if you feel like your workout was a little too hard is movement, by the way. And a lot of times people think recovery means just laying there and sleeping. That is part of it too. But let's say you already get adequate sleep and your legs are still sore. What should you do? Should I just not move? Let the muscles repair? What should I do? The best thing you do is move, stretch, mobility work, hiking or walking, or even very, very light full range of motion, squats or lunges, bodyweight style, just bodyweight style. And when I mean easy, I mean easy. You're not going, you're not trying to get a workout, you're just going through the motions, stretching and squeezing the muscles. And that actually speeds up, not only does it speed up recovery, but it enhances the muscle building adaptation process. In fact, in the MAPS anabolic program, the trigger sessions that I put in there, that's really one of the big things that it does, is it facilitates recovery and enhances adaptation. Look, if you like listening to the podcast, you're also going to love watching it. We are also on video. And for those of you joining us on YouTube, what's happening? Check us out on YouTube, Mind Pump Podcast. You can also find us on Instagram. You can find Justin at Mind Pump Justin. You can find me at Mind Pump Sal and Adam at Mind Pump Adam. Towards us. One guy's got his arm around the other guy. I'm like, oh, they're drunk. They're going to say something. Sure enough, dude walks by, he's staring at me and I turn around and now I'm pretty good at diffusing situations. Didn't have to.


Wel i'n ysgolwyd y TV, mae'n ystafell 11ion. Fe oedd oedai i gyd yn ffwrst yn golygu. Mae'n olygu i gyd yn fawr oedd o'r gyd yn fawr. Mae'n ganddo i'n gwneud o'r gyd yn fawr o'r 10 ymlaen. Ond mae'n ddau. Fe oedd yn fawr o'r gyd yn fawr o'r gyd yn dweud. Fe oedd yma'r lle'r lle yma, mae'n yn gweithio'r llunio. Mae'n gweithio'r lle'n gweithio'r lle'n gweithio'r llunio'r lle. Gwyddo, mae'n gwneud hyn, dyna'r tablau hynny. Rwy'n credu, wrth gwrs, John Pickford yn goll. Rhaid i chi. Yn ychydig, yn fwy o'n fydd gweithio, Jordan, rydw i'n mynd. Mae'r bach 4. Rhaid i chi. Mae'n gweithio eich tynnu Nathan Patterson, ac mae'n rhaid i chi. Rydw i'n meddwl, mae'n meddwl yn gweithio. Felly mae'n meddwl yw'r blwyddyn yn fawr i yw'r ysgol. Mae'n meddwl am ymddangos i'r newydd, ond i'n meddwl i'r blwyddyn o'n meddwl am y cynyddiadau. Ond efallai, fel y dyfod am ganddofod yma, mae'n meddwl y ffyrdd amgyrch. Mae'n meddwl i'r ffordd. Mae'n meddwl i'r profi, fel y gwahodd, ac mae'n meddwl i'r ysgol i chi'r meddwl i chi'r ysgol, And they would have a different profile at Rygbach. The manager said in the press conference that Nathan Patterson more or less said is the future and blah blah blah. We'll make them the present then. We're going to need to start using different players. Patterson came in for the West Ham game when we went and got three points. You're going to have to make a decision. I personally don't think Ashley Young has got the speed of thought a'r syniad ar gyfer y cyfrifod. I dwi'n hynny gofio y ffordd o'r golygu gweithio'r ddod. Rwy'n oponio gyda'r ddysgu ar meddwl ym Gwyd. Dwi i'n gynnyddio i'n gweithio a'r yw Gymru. Nid yw'n gweithio siaradau hwnnw. Fyddo eu ddod hynny, rydych chi gweithio ar diem Ond Gwydau 21 i gyd mwy o'n gweithio i'r Gymru. Dyna'r cyfrifod gyfredig hwnna тыn, Ond nid o'r llwyffaeth sydd yn cyrwbeth i Nathan Patterson bob ysbyt ymgyrchu'n hanfodol. Rwy'n meddwl, Ileinchaw wneud oherwydd falch yn ginew i gael arweinol. Fi'i rhoi trefynol yn gyngorol, fel wneud y bwysig yma yn y bar, fe fyddwn yn eu cyhoedd ag wedi gweithio a fyddwn saith. Rwy'n meddwl iawn teimlo, fel sefydli beth y charges o'r gweithiau. Dwi'n edrych i gwael mae'n hyn i ddweud. Mae'r centre llaw hynny, wrtheds i Gareth Branthwaite a James Tarkowski Brantwaith ond four yellow cards as well isn't he, so he's at risk of missing a game soon as well, that is the way it is isn't he, that is the way it is. But again these two, did these two deserve to concede three goals last week now, they've been consistent, Brantwaith's getting better every game. Tachy's looking more and more like a proper Everton captain, you know he's filling that role more and more week in and week out. So this partnership is going to have to break, probably break up soon unless Brantwaith can get through the whole of December without being booked, which I can't really see happening. But they are the two and you're not really thinking past them and you, God you day and all think past them really. So there the two centre backs, in some infield doesn't look like O'nana's going to be fifth manager base has written them off for this game hasn't he and again with it being a very busy period you don't want to aggravate an injury. So I just a going to get you, I thought it was the man of the match last week starts for me, I thought it was the man of the match and obviously he came on the game before against Palace and got the winning goal. So a Disagana guy in there, we do lose an element of control but I think away from home that's not the worst thing in the world. I'd rather have O'nana back for the New Castle game to be honest if that's possible. So a Disagana guy alongside him James Garner who's been, who's been effective listening he's, I think he's better with O'nana, I don't think he's quite the same player with a Disagana guy. But he you know puts his foot in, makes tackles keeps the ball well up and down. I'd like to see him more get in more offensive areas obviously going up against his old team. Be lovely to see him get a goal. He's in there and ahead of them obviously the core I was being obviously I think he scored nine goals since Sean Dice coming in has been very effective in this role away from home. Didn't really show much against Manchester United but very effective. We all know how effective he is. He's another one who's on four yellow cards so he's another booking away from picking up. I mean let's just hope that him and Branthwy don't pick up yellow cards and listen I'm not particularly bothered about Ashley Young but let's just hope those two don't pick up yellow cards in this game. Because obviously they'd be both missing for the New Castle game but yeah the core let's hope he can find the score and boots again away from home and he did last season. Let's hope he does it again. On the right Jack Harrison and on the left MacNeill both of them have to massively improve for me and I'm not being like I'm not you know not trying to pin everything on them but I do think they have to start improving because if they're not playing well then whoever's playing up front is isolated and Dominic Arblun has been isolated in the last couple of games because I don't think these two have done enough in the final third. Yes Jack Harrison got an assist against Palace but I don't think either have done enough in the final third. They work hard, they do them well, they help double up but they're not doing enough. I do understand that I say it all the time. Jack Harrison needs a fullback who goes past them. He really does. He needs that fullback and that's where he's critical of Dice last week not bringing Paterson on earlier on to help him out. So he would benefit from Paterson or even Seamus Coleman playing it right back because I think they'd make that run for him. Ashley Young doesn't but both of them have to improve in the final third whether that's getting shots out, whether that's better deliveries, thinking a bit faster than doing what they're trying to do a little bit quicker so both of them have to improve for me. And up front I'm going for Beto. Dominic Arblun hasn't been training properly this week. Being managing tight muscles, it's cold, it's not great for that kind of thing at the moment. I think Beto obviously was out last week but it's because someone fell on his knee and they weren't really sure. His back has been saying all week I think this might be a good opportunity to play him from the start. Give us something a little bit different than what we've seen so far. Maybe someone who drops in a little bit tries to pick the ball up. Of course he's not going to give you some things that Dom gives you which is I don't think the aerial presence but he might surprise a few people. He might be a bit of a shock to people. I just think that's what we've got him for isn't it, to take the pressure off Dominic Arblun. Lots of games coming up. What we don't want to do is aggravate Dominic Arblun injury so he's missing for a couple of weeks. A couple of weeks in December is a long time in terms of a lot of games so I think this is a brilliant opportunity to play better. I've done on the bench. We've got a game on Thursday, we've got a game Sunday. We can't be using all the same players all the time. Something has to give and of course we've got suspensions, could pick up injuries and that bench has been not being used as well as a lot of people would like to have seen it. Dan Duma probably needs more game time to get him up to speed a little bit because he's coming on and he's not really doing anything. That's why Ounana shouldn't come back till he's fit. Give us that extra presence. Onze Gomez looks like he might be available to come off the bench. That's important as well having another midfield body on there. Obviously Dobbin has been playing for the under 21s of reasons as well. That's good for his development and obviously Shemitty's there so the more players we can get on the bench and the more we can rotate and we're not using the same players all the time. I'd rather play didn't get suspended but the manager, this is going to be a big month for the manager to see how he uses that squad and how he uses the subs and not to just use everyone to the limit for every game. It can't work, it won't work, it simply won't work so let's see what happens. Big test for us if we could get three points in this game. I think it would change the mindset of a lot of people who are feeling really down at the moment with everything that's gone on with the points deduction. I think we're all feeling a little bit down about that and where we are in the Premier League. So let's see what happens anyway. Big test for the Toffees. Let's hope we can get through it. Let me know your thoughts in the comments. Who would you have on the team? Who would you put in? Who would you leave out? Let me know. We'll find out at half four on Saturday. Watch your advice things. Give this video a like, subscribe if you haven't already. Check out the match preview with me and Bass so we go over the game in full and if you want exclusive daily videos head over to Toffee TV Premier link is in the description and the QR code is going up now. See you later.


Welcome to No Summary, Golden Threads live stream series of conversations with artists that don't fit in a box. For those who may not know, Golden Thread is the first American theater company devoted to plays from or about the so-called Middle East. We are based in San Francisco and will be celebrating our 25th anniversary this year. My name is Armorn Aldo Grigorian, and I've been a fan of Golden Threads since the Ziriab show that was called the Fifth Stream. And I've been on the Golden Thread team for a few shows. My favorite being the Zara Nurbaq show called On behalf of all Muslims. And let's see, it was a comedy special. We sold out the Brava Theater 700 seats plus waiting list. And now I'd like to introduce our guests for today.  They're interested in using art and performance to grow connection and cultivate healing with queer and trans Muslim communities. If you'd like to say hello and or anything else, go for it. Hi, I'm excited to be here. Mark Erdahi is a gay Syrian American theater director working in New York City. He has directed and produced musicals and plays in New York Musical Festival, New York Friends, Off-Broadway, and taken multiple shows on tour around the country. He has two cats, Minnie and Rufus. How'd I do? You got it right. Happy to be here. Vera Hanouche, aka Vera, is an Armenian-American drag king, dancer, and activist. They are a member of Rebel Kings of Oakland, Suwana Kings, Southwest Asian and North African, Bay Area Development Officer for Covenant House, California, Lead Volunteer Trainer on the LGBT National Hotline, and board member of OCLASH, the Bay Area Drag Festival. How about that? That sounds about right. That's me. Thank you for having me. Alrighty. Apologies for not memorizing my notes. I was asking, you know, we were talking about it. It's sort of a concert style. You're up on stage, but your sheet music is there just to get you through. Let's see. Where are we? Let's get into the theme, which is a Suwana queer imagination. Oh, I was going to say real quick.  And oh, feel free, whoever's watching or on Facebook live. Feel free to message us any little thoughts or emojis. Or even if you want to clap, I think we'll feel it through the screen. Let's see what's next. Okay. Let's jump right in. Let's start with Zara. Now have you engaged with your imagination and engaged with overlapping communities? Oh, yeah. Just like a tiny question with a very tiny answer. So RM and I met in a queer Muslim healing justice space and I think something that I am really appreciative of is the time that the two of us have been able to spend together thinking about when, what connection is possible when you sort of open the door through art. So I'm a poet. That's how I think of myself as a cultural worker. And particularly as someone that is a Pakistani American. So I'm a little too Pakistani to be American, a little too American to be Pakistani. And so in my writing, I think a lot about the third culture, the like ways in which like kids and immigrants navigate two cultures that they both belong to and don't belong to. And it's exciting to like make third culture legitimate, like as its own entity and to be able to practice doing that in poetry and say things like we pronounce our names wrong.  And yet we are very committed to tradition and reconnecting with our cultures of origin. Yeah, we love it.  And just so lucky to know you for these years. And it's an interesting adventure. Navigating all of that multiple layers of culture and everything. Just as a practice, I want to give you a snap and invite anybody to snap because I'll talk about it later briefly, but inspired by something Vera did one of our stages a couple of years ago, jumping over to Mark, wondering what your thoughts might be on this question. Have you engaged with your imagination and engaged with our overlapping communities? I think that I think I've probably been doing that for as long as I've been creating. I think it's right. I mean, we met in 2011. And I think that's that's pretty much what I do on a day to day basis. I kind of think of how the of what's next. And I'm always thinking of what can I create next? And who can I involve that doesn't fit in a box? And I think, you know, I consider myself a creator in that way. So it's kind of like in my blood to keep doing that. I really I so identified when Zara said that she's too American to be Pakistani and to Pakistani to be American. You know, Arm and I, we have had so many of those conversations. Like, I always feel the same way. I'm too American to be Syrian and too Syrian to be American. And so, you know, and I think that's that informs so much of what I do and who I like to work with, you know. And I think, yeah, that's how I do it every day. Yeah, it's been an interesting 10 years knowing you on both coasts. Just as a footnote, Zara, they then pronouns are on our on our weekend of the end of June. I know we're all juggling tons of things. And I'm just it's been so nice. Yeah, reflecting with Mark on just our careers. What of it has been professionally acknowledged or what of it is worthy of any acknowledgement? Heavily queer, I think we're both finally just a little bit re stepping into the Middle Eastern Swana, mean world in theater. And I think also a little bit because what pathways have been offered to us. I feel like I've learned more just in the last two years than ever in my whole career. So big love and, you know, props to Golden Thread and the newly formed in case anyone wants to check it out. I think it's Menatma that stands for Middle Eastern, North African Theater Makers Alliance, something like that. Wendy, links. Thanks also shout out to behind the scenes, Golden Thread folks. OK, I'm just taking a breath because I need to take a breath. And. Snaps got to keep myself focused. I'm also just a little bit. I'm a fan bot for you three. So I get excited. OK, a quick little bounce over to Vera. What might be your thoughts on this question? How have you engaged with your imagination and engaged with our overlapping communities? Oh, that is such it's such a good question. I love everyone's responses as far. I'm like thinking of mine and chewing on yours simultaneously, nam nam. But I would say, you know, I'm a drag king. And so doing drag has been the greatest kind of exploration of my imagination to date. You know, I've done dance. I've done theater and then this is this is both and, you know, drag for me is like 10,000 different arts all rolled into one. And it's been really just healing for me, gendery, bendy wise, and it's it's been amazing. It's I like I just have my like eyeliner pencil, just in case I need a mustache mid this panel, I'm just here ready. But, you know, so that's been a deep exploration of my imagination and what I can look like, how I can bring on it. You know, my drag name is Vera and my actual name, shock of the nation is also Vera, because it really just feels like an extension of myself. So the same kind of humor and play that I have out of drag, I bring into drag and I love seeing how that changes when I'm in drag, what sees the same, what different audience interactions I can have, what worlds I can create. It's just the best. I can't. I could talk about drag forever. But when you think about, you know, the intersecting cultural stuff for me, that's also been super g-dang healing as well.  And then now I attend the group, which is amazing. And so I did that for a while and I've gone to queer swana stuff for a while, but only a couple of years ago, I would say maybe a couple. I started delving into doing swana drag stuff. Ultimate imagination healing. I did a show called Swana King, like a one a one man show. It was it was great. And just like seeing the audience react to that, it just I feel like such a beautiful moment for me. But just exploring what being a swan king means to me also over the quarantine times, there's now a group that were from everywhere. And we've been able to connect during these times called swan kings. So I'm, you know, routinely talking to, you know, family, drag king family from Lebanon, from Canada, from Boston, and being a part of that thing, also thinking of the third culture thing. I have learned more from like the group and from them than I ever have gotten from bio family.   And that's been a really powerful journey. And I just I just something you said about, you know, pronouncing our names wrong. I also don't speak anything.  But having this kind of queer swana language where we all understand and like we understand that for some reason, you know, for me, there's like a block with what my dad will provide me with information wise because I'm queer. So filling the gaps and like exploring imagination with other queer swana friends and performers has been amazing. And it really like a place to explore and do fun things and do drag to arm MP3 and just like not lip sync and love it. Because, you know, it's just, you know, you don't have to lip sync the Armenian if you just dance it. Oh, my God. Oh, my God, I'm so like just oozing with joy. Shout out to that. Arm MP3 performance just by the way, because it's a vehicle for all kinds of amazing things. So so glad to have that in the. On the field, I guess I'll just briefly mention something that came up when you were speaking Vera. Like I was thinking of how I've come around so like forcefully with my queer Palestine and whereas like five years ago, I didn't have access to any of that stuff. And even it was, I think, less than a month ago that this group in and around Jerusalem called Al-Qaos, which I mispronounce thing, but whatever I think it means the rainbow or the park is a queer Palestinian activist group in Palestine. And just watching that live Instagram staying with all those really great.  So I've been so inspired to like move in that direction, whereas I didn't have really much of a pathway before it was like putting those pieces together separately. So it's interesting. But back to imagination, which overlaps in a lot of areas too. But I guess I'll ask you guys, what's the hurdle that you've had in connecting with our swannanness or Middle Easternness or Eastern hemisphere roots and something that you can think of that got us over a little bit of a hurdle like that whoever wants to jump in if you have a thought. I think for me, a lot of it is guess, particularly from like a Muslim perspective, I guess more than like a geographic perspective, like figuring out like Halal to Haram ratios and like how like queer and vulgar and inappropriate, like am I allowed to be? And how much do I feel as if portraying a more like traditional version of like Islamic practices is something that like matters to me. Yeah, the Halal to Haram ratio. I think that I find it easy to get really bogged down in the idea that if you're not doing something as it was traditionally supposed to be done, then it's like not valid. And I think something that really helped in general was a finding like queer Muslim community to be like, oh, I can pray and I can like not wear hijab and like that's art too. Like being being able to like manifest yourself in a in a way that feels most authentic even like outside of an art context. But then also I used to live in New York City, and now I live in Oakland. And so the muster that go to now is like is run by black folks and is not as deeply committed to getting everything like exactly right. In terms of like a ritual in practice, it just feels much more relaxed.  And there's less less expectation that like we're all going to we're all going to practice in in a certain way that like diversity of practice is like a thing that is valuable. Yeah, I love finding any of those spaces for a long term or temporarily, because yeah, being around other people who give you some cushion, I think is hard to come by often times. Yeah. Either of you, Mark or Vera have a hurdle that you jumped over or found a way to get over it. Connecting with some of our roots. Mark, would you like to go? I have this conversation a lot. It's so it's so I won't be I won't belabor it or belong with it, but I think it's very for me like it's been very personal. I think the hurdle has been very personal and it's been about, you know, we don't need to get into it too much. But it's for me to get over the hump to it's dealt a lot with my own whiteness and westernness and sort of a very a years long, you know, ironically, the pandemic, you know, Arm and I, we talked about this pandemic to it gave me a lot of time of introspection. So I feel like I did a lot of growing over the pandemic to sort of identify with with, you know, other things. But yeah, I think for me it was a lot of my sis whiteness that it was and it's an ongoing journey. I'm not saying that it's, you know, and done. But, you know, but that's been the biggest hurdle for me and sort of rediscovering a lot because I do come from a very multi ethnic household, you know, that was one side that was very, very Irish and very Western and very yeah, you know, normal American and then the other side being very Syrian and very differently cultured. And I think I had a lot of a long time of conflict in my own brain about those two worlds and where I fit in. And I think I had a lot of a long time of conflict in my own brain about those two worlds and where I fit in. And I think I still have those conversations, but like doing things like this and doing the work that I do in New York and constantly pushing out narratives that I'm interested in telling, you know, queer narratives, Middle Eastern narratives to get and that's new to me too that's like just getting into that world has been great. Just pushing myself to do it. And then working sort of, because I work commercially a lot with a lot of like, you know, commercial New York producers and trying to break that mold. Obviously I'm just one person and that's a lot of power but that's been fun to and pushes me also to try to break some of that. One person but you got us and our whole movement. Totally. It's great. For me, I think a lot like I've resonated with everything you've both said for me there's a lot of imposter syndrome going on with me being swanna, which is also due to like the paleness and also due to. I think it goes back I've actually been like having a moment thinking about I think it's like a lot of push pull with my father because I'm. My swanna side is my dad's side.  If I, you know, don't know. Like a timeline of dates of Armenian history circa blah blah ADBC years, but I feel like I tried to educate myself a lot during our second all of that which is already like a little late so I've built about that but any whoodle like that I feel like a lot of it is kind of imposter syndrome and not feeling like I deserve to delve into it, but if not me then who like who out there is more, more like anyone can can you know I would never say that to someone else, you know just I try to flip my brain sometimes and be like, would you tell me to be more like Armenian Syrian American King that they can't do a swan king number because I don't know no reason at all so I kind of and that's where a lot of community has has helped but I'm still struggling and you know in queer swanna spaces like a lot of times people speak Arabic and when they realize I don't. It's like I've been outed and there's that there's that like I've I've failed there or something like that. I'm like I can count to 10 I try to like joke about it and be like I watched type of work out videos. I can count, I can, I can, I can say car, you know, it's just there's a lot, there's a lot there too but that's what it kind of evoked for me also I'm still in this hallelujah scale. I used to with a friend of mine, if we saw someone who we thought was a queer swan a person, we would do the layla ometer so it'd be like if they were a little acrylic and if it was more obvious, it was just. So I just give that as a gift to you really not just came to my mind. Oh my god. Oh my god. Okay, inspiration overload, but I was to be expected. I'm going to make one brief comment on what you guys said, because I'm, I think this imposter syndrome has popped up often here and there, but I like Zara what you said about almost like. I may be, you know, what you said I think I was thinking existence, our existence is a little bit of a piece of art in itself. So like, how can it be inauthentic or something like that. I don't have much to think about. And I think I'll take a quick break, and say hi check in, whoever's watching. If you're just joining us. This is no summary Golden Threads live stream series of conversations with artists that don't fit in a box. We're in conversation with Zara Jamshed Mark or dahi there Hanush, and I'm Armando. Feel free to post questions to the Golden Thread Facebook live. And we can respond to those. We can check in. I'll try to check in with Chris and Wendy.  So my need for engagement, my, you know, I'm overwhelmed since I'm just overwhelmed on a regular basis, especially with zoom. So happy to be here and be able to chat with everyone but I have college dropout remnants where I if I'm in a lecture, I get overloaded so I wanted to bring this up from Vera Suana King show, which was at the tutorial stage, one of my favorite places to work and to enjoy entertainment. But we were there in the show. And I have a few examples of this that really are almost life changing. In terms of art and entertainment. We're in the show. Great show by the way. But in the middle of the show, you introduce a little bit of choreography for the seated guests. It's simple, almost like flash mob choreography. And that I mean it's audience engagement in a simple way but it's like elevated from how do we engage as audience laughing, clapping, crying, whatever. This was dance.  So that was transformative and I just need a little bit more of that if I'm going to have any lecture information coming my way. I can all like move around with a little bit of the wave. Let me know if you have a thought on that or any response to that because I'm just such a big fan of that moment. I'm so glad that that was a wonderful moment for you for me it was really just my way to trick an entire audience to being my backup dancers for Armenian folk dance. Great. If you have a whole sea of people. I also handed out Armenian flags everyone was waving them to cute to cute. Do you want to do something now is that what you're saying is that is that Anita wanted desire. I was dreaming of it. We can do it for sure. Oh, absolutely. Oh, absolutely put me on the spot with the dance routine. Yes.  Raise the swan a roof for three, and then bring it down for three. So we're going to raise it up for three. One, two, three, raise the swan a roof for three. Bring it down for three. One, two, three. I feel a little better on this is great one last time one last time if you missed it the first time to to the transfer again bringing it up one, two, three, raise the swan a roof. Bring it down. One, two, three. Yes. I love just to drop this bit of information. When you're writing the subway in New York and the people come on who are playing the drums. I love when they give you the history of drumming to like drumming is something that is done all over the world. Isn't that amazing that everyone has thought of the same thing or whatever. And I like this. Different terms but relation, whatever is all over the globe. I love when it pops up in any like outdoor gatherings in the park or, you know, protesting marching down the street. Okay, one last little thought because this is the kind of stuff that I just kind of need to get through. I'm a big fan, you know, everyone might know of musical theater, whether that's pop up in the middle of the street, Shakespeare in the parking lot, the musical, whatever I need to be moving a little bit to get my brain on stuck. But yeah, I went to the women's march in 2017 or 2018 in Oakland and we went like around the lake. But it was with my YMCA dance class hip hop dance class folks, and they had a simple flash mob choreography that we could do while we're walking. And it was just insane the difference between holding a sign and chanting. You know, free Palestine, queer Palestine, you know, LGBTQ rights versus making a rainbow doing all kinds of stuff and having kids on the side. Any people of all ages, watch and like come and take video or join in. The difference I think is so tangible to me and I don't know if everyone agrees, but that's kind of where I'm trying to sneak this audience engagement in. All right, let's see time check. Halfway through. I'll see if there's any info in the chat. Yeah, feel free to let me know. Wendy and Chris. Let's see where do we stand. Okay, it's tough because I think we're juggling here art and queerness and swanniness Middle Eastern is even those labels, I think are as hard to define their elusive they change. Who has maybe a thought on the term swanna, or the term queer or swan a queer, because those are almost like new terms I haven't used my whole career as a person. It's been a few years, and I'm embracing it as much as I can but until it evolves into some other language. No pressure meditation rumination is also part of our hang out. We love you audience, we love you, whoever you are. Also, a note, big fan of Golden thread YouTube channel check out the this no summary will be on their previous no summaries. And I think how around theater comments they have a nice channel that have some of our golden thread previous shows. I have a question. I'm just thinking about it. I, I like the term swanna and makes me feel like part of the community in the same way and queer makes me feel part of a community. I feel like they're both very, they're kind of I've never really thought about this but swanna is just like that kind of feeling for me as queer is to that part of my life. I love the all inclusive terms that make me feel warm and snugly and swanna queer together it's just like peanut butter and jelly other delicious flavors together. It's just, you know, they just really go together for me, swanna king swanna queer, and I feel like there's room in, there's room in queer for me for all of my gendery boundary stuff which is nice. And there's room for swanna for me in terms of being like I feel like I can say that you know that that that even with all my imposter syndrome meanness like that still feels good and like accurate and I don't have any hesitation, because I feel like that's open to diaspora and stuff like that as children of immigrants and etc etc. Yeah, those comfy spaces with coziness and support are just so hard to come by and they change so much. Like, I don't remember who brought it up but you know chosen family, the concept, I just had never really felt like it was for me, or that I needed it and suddenly was a huge thing that I felt suddenly I'm in it and it's taken you know, I got jumped to the forefront, just out of like over time you see who you still are fighting the battles with, or who's there, got your back for a moment. Anyway, I digress. Any other thoughts on the term swanna queer, swanna or queer. They seem so young to me, and yet I embrace them. Yeah, I remember. I mean, before this show, I was like, Do I count as swanna is Pakistan part of swannam. So, I think just in general, there's not a lot of that hasn't been historically a lot of language through which to be like oh yeah this is the, this is the community that I'm, that I'm part of. And if instead I feel like I often get lumped in as, as they see which is how like I identify this like of this sub continent. I feel like so much more about how I like move in in the world as a racialized person has much more to do with like how my religion is racialized more than like my physical features like as like an Asian person. So this is a term that feels very new for me. That I'm like enjoying sitting in and being being a part of, and like feeling a lot of like kinship with. And then with queerness, goodness just feels so like expansive and like relaxing. I don't know it feels like there's less expectations to be or act or move a certain way, and that like, particularly as like a non binary person, being able to hold like. masculine and femininity at the same time, being able to. Yeah, play play multiple roles, have the space to try new things and then if it doesn't work try something else like it's very, it's very fluid it's very. Yeah, expansive, it just feels very freeing and liberating. Yeah, I've had fun with the terms want us sort of crossing. I mean it's an embrace in a way. And I think back to that zero show the fifth string, just how this artist was somewhere in Arabia and made his way over to Spain and hung out with the Jews and the Spaniards and he was doing art and fashion and I don't know what you know but the historical Islamic Empire of sorts that just goes everywhere, but we can see how we're connected in some ways. Um, I guess mark I want to ask real quick because swan and queer being youngish terms, but you know we've chatted about how when we sort of started out.  That was a, you know slur it was like, you know, that's, that's okay. We had to take that back and then you know like how do we. That's stuck in the LGBTQIA plus, and we don't always have time for all of that. You're correct. I mean swan is new to me too I think I'm still figuring out how to have a button, what to do with that for my art. But the. Yeah, I mean I think weirdness for us. For me, you and I, having known you has definitely evolved over the past decade. You know, but I agree I mean it's such an expansive term and I've taken, I've done like a lot of. It's kind of a great class last last semester it's in school it was called queer New York and it was just all beautifully studying queer history and queer culture and what it means today. And you know what it, there is no definition of what it means I mean, there's a basic definition but it's kind of what you make of it if you identify as queer. Yeah, but it certainly has evolved from those gay.com days. Um, hey that's our history you know like I like checking in with just the timeline I mean the more that we exist, the more our resume takes on another page that no one's ever going to really read but the definition from me that I've, I'm sneaking from my other Sparkle Awards show is who is someone that inspires you in the moment right now. You know, it can be a friend it can be someone you don't know, but you know like someone that's you've had for a long time or someone that's just popped up and you're like, they're giving me so much energy. You can use it in some of our artwork, our existence, our community stuff, whoever has a thought, feel free to share. I can go just because I also want everyone to follow this person immediately on Instagram. King Baba Moon is one of the most creative drag kings I've ever encountered and is, you know, I get constant inspiration and is, you know, very kind of to me young because I'm 30. And they're like 21. I just can't even but they do a lot of beautiful uplifted swan a culture, part of my son a King's group. The paints are just so beautiful they did a beautiful number recently to an Arabic song where they were both like mama and Baba Moon so the, the femme articulation and the mask, singing to each other. I love song and I just, I sat there and I was like crying, I was hosting the show to it was bad I was like in tears. It was just so beautiful and powerful and every time they post anything I'm like, well, that's a reason to go on going, because you know they are in the world and I get a lot of inspiration from my drag children lotus boys another phenomenal performer, and my brother and I go to Mercury so just throwing all those angels out there. Inspiration inspiration overload continues. Any thoughts. No pressure. You can share whenever you'd like to. We have, we have ample room to moves. So I like to just hang out with you guys. I'm lucky that in my day job. I've met a lot of really amazing artists. And so there was a group of three of us. Myself, Marissa Lashnov, who is an incredible incredible photographer and my friend Becca holds is like a like unbelievable jazz singer. So our mediums for art, we're all like really, really different. We would, you know, go to happy hour after work and we'd like share what we were working on we talked about how like nerve wracking it is to try to monetize our passions like as young people who are trying to take their art more seriously. And, yeah, being able to have that community I'm like is this what like, you know, enlightenment salons, like felt like for like old white people, like, is that this feeling that we like cultivated here of. Having a lot of really different interests, but like, kind of meeting in this, in this want for like to express ourselves as like clearly as possible to know that like pursuit of mastery is just like a really beautiful thing that I find so gorgeous about art. And yeah, so the two of them really really inspired me to take my art more seriously and to try to like bring it out into the world more. Mark, if you have a thought, feel free to share now I'm noticing the time and I'm realizing we're running out of time, six minutes, I'm going to read the questions in the chat, and you can share mark if you have an inspirational person. I mean, we only have six minutes. Let's see. There's some questions. Well, okay. In an imaginary situation, you're going to put a show together with all this stuff rolled into one. And what's like a top three way to approach it, make a dream come true. Anyone can share five minutes, no pressure. I can go because I think there was a question for me which is kind of similar to this about how do you take from from conception to production, how does that happen. And for me, maybe it's because I'm a Virgo but I make a lot of lists lists. It's just so they're so good. And I think about where where I want to start and where I want to end and then I kind of almost rainbow arch it like back towards mill and where I want the kind of big moment to be. And when I did my swan king show I knew I had certain things I wanted to talk about I wanted to talk about family rejection I wanted to talk about loss of, you know, cultural language I wanted to talk about drag I wanted to talk about my gender I wanted to talk about you don't all like all of these things and it was like a 30 to 45 minutes show and it's like okay how do I do all of that and what kind of things can I do where. So I wanted to also have some drag numbers just interspersed in there. So how to weave in and out of them and have monologue monologue dialogue that would kind of make sure that I hit all of them and I ended with my my cousin is so on a comedian. And does funny cover song so I ended with his rap about hummus which I just and great beliefs. So I feel like that. And I think I actually did the great police song but he also has a wrap about hummus because what limit yourself that's really the message that I have why limit yourself. But just kind of building block it to make sure that when you add it together intricately every message that I want is in there and kind of seamlessly between with with the with the kind of thread golden thread to see what I did there a thread of humor throughout. Because that's kind of what has sustained me both emotionally as a person as a swan a queer person as a performer and how that can even be evocative and lead to a more telling of truths. Love it. We're going to use it, we're going to run with it. Such good sharing 30 second thoughts one minute thoughts. If you guys want to share anything. I guess I'm going to talk about like lighting and not poetry I had the opportunity while I was in school to become an electrician and a lighting designer in the like college theater of mine. And like the first thing that I got to light was devised theater piece by a friend of mine. And it was all students of color that had written their, their own skits. And I guess part of starting this project for me involved just like how do I, how do I capture your, the beauty of your melanin like through the light. So often it's many lighting designers will just sort of like take all their colors based on the appearance of like white cast members, and often leaves people of color really like wash out. So, I don't know I think it's all about like, like collaboration and respect like how do I, as your like tech person, hold like put set you up for success by like, trying to make sure that like my, my art is as respectful as like your art is. So, like you, you're already starting from a place of community and from like teamwork I think that's the most exhilarating thing about any sort of like collaborative performance art is being able to yeah have that mutual respect for each other's crafts. Go team go. Any thought on, you know, making that, you know, trying to share our. So on a queerness, but thinking about the whole team like how do you make something that maybe not everybody's on the same page including us we're just catching up in a sense sometimes make it real. So, I mean I think that's about open communication and collaboration. And I think it's bringing about bringing on a diverse as diverse a team as possible, you know obviously not just optically but like, but who you want to work with. And I think when you, you know you, you've seen me in a room before working and stuff like that so you know that it collaboration and stuff comes so naturally to me sometimes to a fault I think I just love hearing everybody's questions and like forming my own based on what's best for the group. So I think that's like one of the biggest ways I mean if everybody just asks questions and isn't afraid of the answers and has open communication and dialogue with the team. I think that's how you create the best kind of art and I would imagine, I think, not imagine I know also the best kind of queer art and I imagine the best kind of swan a queer art. And it's so dependent on our artistic partners our friends. If we're in a pandemic or not, or leftovers. But yeah, I love being able to chat with you guys about this. Yeah, I guess before I do our little outro. What's that some kind of a takeaway, each of you might have for people in our community people outside of our community. We're sharing twins who are like where do I go.  I can go for our elders get on, get on board get on the train shoot to get like, you know, I have so much love and respect and I just had like the most awkward Father's Day called my life but I you know I just were here, you know, I for me it's I'm providing so much love. Meet me. Let's, let's do this. There's no there's no reason to have like a generational gap here because of queerness. There's just my thoughts who I could go on before people who are into like, quanta, quanta, quanta swears. Oh my God, what's reset. It's one of queers. I just kind of want to make it one word now and make a group but anyway that's for later time. I would say just whatever you're hesitating on doing absolutely do it. And if you, if it's like if that happens to be in the realm of drag. Absolutely contact me because I co host a show that welcomes newbies and specifically like it's like if this is your first time we would love to be there with you. And I'm also a drag parent so we're here and just that there are people out there in community who want to lift you up. That's what I would say said well. Second, parting thoughts. Yeah. I was listening to a podcast called diaspora babes, and it was talking about talking about art and like why prioritizing art is important. And something that the host said that I feel like I'm going to remember for a really long time is so much of us worry like who cares about our art who I'm going to make this thing and then and then what like what impact is it going to have. And so what the host said was like no one's going to care about your art as much as you do. No one's going to be as invested in your like creative potential as you are that that is like both a responsibility and also incredibly liberating to be like who cares I care. And this is about fulfillment and expression and that it could feel really embarrassing to express a lot of emotions were taught to repress a lot of emotions in our culture.  But that since it is truly about like what have it joy release you get from from creation. That is absolutely like worth doing and that your like art is worth life sharing with the world and like you know, sometimes someone might not be ready for it, but sometimes someone will. And like the best part of performance to me is like at the end where like that one person comes up to you and it's like that really resonated with me. And you're like it doesn't matter who else heard what I had to say that person really heard me and like that's something that's really precious. Okay, I'll echo just a little bit of that because I think I feel so lucky for this luxury to be with all of you because it's also, you know, sometimes we can be a little bit on the same page enough to not have to explain every single thing. And that's little luxuries I'd like to take with our artists colleagues and such. So I'll wrap it up real quick. It seemed like we had an endless time and suddenly there's no time. Okay love you all so much. Thank you all for whoever is watching or who's going to watch in the future. We have come to the end of our time. Thanks to my LGBTQ plus comrades Zara Mark and Vera, you can connect with all of us. I don't know we'll put the links in the YouTube notes as usual. Let's see connect with golden thread sign up for the weekly email follow on Facebook and Instagram and Twitter. Thanks to how around for hosting us and Wendy Sahara and Chris and the whole team. Yeah, and when the YouTube comes out rewatch share with your friends and such. And I look forward to, you know, the future theater scene, as we're unwinding slowly. Let's see what else are my acceptance speech notes. Thank you all for attending, sharing the space with me. Have a nice weekend. Oh, it's the weekend. What a weekend. All right. Wrap myself up in a little unwrappable box until further corruption. Bye guys.