Hello everybody, hello, it's 6.30, here we go, now we're working, Mike is working, can people hear okay? Great, thank you all for coming out, we arranged the hottest night of the year for this, so we're sorry, we do apologize for the noise of the air conditioning, I know that it is difficult to hear sometimes, I will do my best at the mic, but we do have computer servers in the room that need to stay cool, so we can't turn them off, we get severely reprimanded by ITB when we turn them off, so we will try to work with the mic or whatever, or people can come closer, my name is Bill Fraser, I'm the city manager here, our goal tonight is to go talk through, here's our schedule for tonight, some brief comments from Mayor Watson to kick the meeting off, and then I'm just going to walk through basics about this parking of the garage, or when we're wide, it's sort of ABCs of the garage, and then go do some frequently asked questions, we've already started getting a lot of questions, some of them are similar, I will do my best to answer them, I'm going to be clear right from the get go, I'm not a designer, I'm not an engineer, I'm not an expert, if we can't answer your question we're going to try to take note of it and get it out and published to do the best, we're trying to put this together but it's an overview, after we do that we'll walk through what the next steps are in the process, and then really what we hope to get is questions, comments and suggestions from all of you about what you like, what you don't like, what can we improve it, should we do this, shouldn't we do it, et cetera, and then I would love to end by 8pm if possible with a this size crowd, I think that's okay, so with no further ado I'm going to kick it off to Mayor Watson. Hey everybody, thank you so much for coming out tonight, this is a really big project for us and it's a big deal and it's worth knowing of what all the facts are and asking good questions about it, so I just want to give you a little context for this, I know since I became a councilor five, six years ago at this point I've been fielding questions about parking in the city of Montpelier and so it's really exciting to me to have the possibility of a parking garage or a solution to this project or to the solution to that problem. You know one of the things I think that is worth noting about this project is that it is intended to leverage some private business here which is not just any business it's a hotel which exists to bring people in from out of town. So one of the things that I am excited about for this project is that this is going to bring more people in from out of town to help support our downtown businesses. I think that's going to be really important for our community moving forward to have a thriving downtown. So that's another point I would make about this and then the last is one of the things that came up over and over again in the council discussion was about the nature of parking in Montpelier that if we were to stack parking if we were to consolidate it but that gives us some options for what we might want to do with our street parking. You know parking is not always everybody's favorite topic but putting it all together and then having some more options for what we want to do is reparking whether that's parklets or bike lanes or whatever it is it at least gives us some choices there. So I hopefully hopefully I don't think any of this is going to be new for me but I'm looking forward to talking more about this so I'm going to turn it back over to Bill. Thank you mayor. So we're going to get lights. Oh yeah lights will be good I knew there was something wrong here. We're going to work on our staging. There we go. Now we can see better sorry you lost it later. So a lot of this many of you may have already know or read about but I'm just going to go through this as these are really the basics what is this project we're talking about a 348 space parking garage in addition 50 least surface spaces we currently least about 50 spaces from Capital Plaza we will be continuing to do that in a different location so while this garage is sitting on top of those we will continue to have those that results in 160 net new parking spaces in downtown I'll talk about that a little more in a bit and we can do this without increasing property taxes and I'll explain that. Okay so this oh I'm sorry. Here we go this is just a basic overview image I would be clear that the parking garage here you can see the white proposed Hampton Inn in the center the Capitol Plaza is in the foreground next to that is Christchurch and behind that that box is a proposed new housing for Christchurch probably isn't going to happen for two or three years at least but we've been us and the Capitol Plaza and Christchurch have been trying to plan for this so that we can accommodate everything behind those housing is the parking garage now that garage in that image is not the one we're proposing that's the one that's been approved for the hotel only that's only 200 unit garage but I don't have this total image with the larger garage I just wanted people to see the the general layout behind the Hampton Inn is the one Taylor project which is under construction now so that is the transit center and 30 affordable housing units in the bike path you can see swinging by so where will this happen I just showed you so the it will be in the garage but the garage will be behind Christchurch on property that is currently owned by Capitol Plaza the hotel will be behind Capitol Plaza this is just another site plan of it again the smaller garage on the site plan but just so people can see how the traffic flows through we will have deeded access from State Street and Taylor Street to the garage they'll either be city streets or deeded access rates away and in the center that blew in the center is the new parking that's being constructed through the surface parking that will be leased to public short-term parking in addition to the launcher so who's doing the project right we talk about a lot of things the city would be owning constructing and developing the garage managing and running the garage the property that it would be on is going to be donated by Capitol Plaza to the city for this project it's worth approximately 500,000 give or take 250 in the direction and and then the Capitol Plaza will be on their own property developing their own Hampton in one question that's come up and it's not my place to speak for Capitol Plaza and they are here to speak for themselves but I've heard from several people that why are we doing this because Hilton is just paying for all of this and I want to be clear that the local family that owns this actually is purchasing a franchise agreement from Hilton and developing this with their own financing and own money so the Hilton Corporation is not paying for this in any way shape or form so I just want to make sure that it is clear so why are we doing this right that's what's the point and I'm sure a lot of people have opinions about that well we had a couple years ago we commissioned an economic development strategic plan had many community stakeholders involved many residents many merchants and we try to identify ways that we could help responsibly grow the community share the tax base and also make us more vibrant the top two top three things that came out of that were one a transformational downtown project hotel two need to improve parking and three housing this project addresses all of that in some way so this is really a continuation of a plan and identified set of needs this isn't I don't think just a reaction new public parking I mentioned there are 160 parking spaces I've heard some people say what's that mean so I check we have 610 parking spaces under city management right now that includes all the meters on the streets all the parking lots that we own cell permits obviously there's plenty of other free parking around the city we have 610 managed spaces so 160 net new is a 26 increase in managed parking in the core downtown so it is a significant difference it's not a small thing the new hotel is as we mentioned key economic driver it will bring as the mayor said new people to town it's obviously a private business but there is a public benefit to that again this could help accommodate affordable housing I think we've talked about 20 or 25 units of affordable housing that's on top of the 30 units of affordable housing and again the 50 surface parking spots those are included in the 160 net new the bike path as we saw in the image there's a bike path going through there before this project came there wasn't really a good connection or a good ADA compliant connection this is going to allow us to build a real very good small park like area with ramps and place section bike repair tools cover plaza cover designed it the city will take it over as it's part of our construction project but this is really I think important people can park in this garage use the bike path guests of the hotel can use this bike path as can of course all of us and finally city we have local options tax here we have a rooms meals and alcohol tax 80 more rooms is more tax revenue to the city none of that has been factored into the calculations of this project so any of that revenue is something above and beyond for the city that is not been factored in here but that is a benefit to the city again as those people are in town and they spend money on meals and alcohol that is also an issue when will this happen well of course nothing ever seems to be discussed as we like sometimes and some people probably it's happening too fast but it will be triggered off of the bond vote tentatively scheduled for November 6 now the city council has given preliminary approval to go forward with this project but they'll be taking a final vote whether or not to put this on the ballot on October 3rd after that November 6th is the general election day when we're voting for governor anything else so we'll be coming in and vote on this project probably a couple of other items the permitting processes will be happening parallel to that so we expect again the hotel itself has already been permitted the smaller garage has already been permitted that happened this spring so the expansion from the smaller to the larger garage is going through the permanent process at this point and because that's an amendment we will still require all the same review but maybe not as many meetings and then if everything passes the hotel as I understand it has a license agreement with the Hilton Corporation which requires them to start work by November so they've been waiting to see whether or not the company garage is going to happen it looks like it's going to they will be doing some work on site in November it really makes the most sense for these two projects to be built together so the bulk of the work would probably start in December with the garage and hotels for your footings and everything at the same time so it's much more efficient that way so how are we going to pay for this right it's 10 million dollar project I'm going to go through a little bit of the details about this that cost includes the costs of design environmental construction permitting that kind of thing so in fact with all that in we have fairly good estimates but estimates are still estimates it also assumes the current bond interest rate we're this will be funded on a 30-year bond with interest only for the first four years and I really want to get into the cash flow I'm happy to do that with them but probably not do much of that today we've assumed annual CPI of adjustments of two and a quarter percent for the entire term that's on both the revenue coming in as well as the expenses going out so the idea is that they would be roughly comparable tiff I'm not going to go into a long thing about tiff but that is it is critical to this project the city recently was approved a tax increment financing district that means within that district any new taxable revenue grand list as we call it can be held in that district and used for public infrastructure that supports the private development so that the taxes from that are only used for this new project which means the regular taxes that everybody else is paying aren't even used so in this case the estimate is that the new hotel and improvements to value on the capital plaza project will result in about a hundred and fifty thousand dollars a year in new taxes that money will be redirected to pay for this garage and that's all the tax money that's in this project so the rest of it is not going on to the tax rate taxes and we're only allowed to use that for 20 years so that is in the pro forma for 20 years the other thing that's conservative in this pro forma is that the state doesn't allow us to increase the amount of or to estimate the increase of the amount of property tax so this shows that capital plaza's tax rate tax bill is never going to change for 20 years now i'm sure they'd like that deal but it actually realistically is going to go up a little bit from time to time like all the rest of ours do so that means that 150 that we've estimated will actually get higher the state doesn't allow us to assume that so for our purposes of being conservative we've kept that flat the entire time we also have not factored in any additional tiff increase so any other new development in the tiff district could be used to pay for this but even though we know a few that might happen we're not counting on them so we're not speculating on something that might happen nor are we assigning them partly to be careful and partly so that we may be able to use that and commit for other public infrastructure needed maybe to make other good projects happen finally we've included 50 000 and growing the capital reserve funds under the annual basis yesterday was st albins to go through the operation of their parking garage that's what they use that was recommended to them by the parking garage expert we've confirmed with them that that is the recommended so in in our annual budget is 50 000 a year essentially building up to be used for maintenance and repair that's in addition to about 90 000 a year in the maintenance and operating costs okay where's the money coming from permits capital as part of our deal with capital permits they're going to capital plus excuse me they're going to purchase 200 permits per year those can be used by them they can also be used by someone else if they're not being used we'll talk a little bit about flex spending in a bit that's flex use in a bit but they are committing to this for basically the life of the project so for 30 years and again those rates go up can go up by cpi as others we also are counting on 80 other permits to date none of those have been identified although certainly we are talking to the state we're talking to people like from imutual we are talking we're looking we have 60 parking lot permits now that we sell and we may consider just moving some of those into this garage and freeing up the surface parking spaces for a short-term parking so we're fairly confident we'll be able to find 80 parkers that we're wanting to buy annual permits at 125 a month we've also accounted for 30 spaces in the garage for the price church affordable housing if it happens at a much lower amount $50 per month so that is to facilitate affordable housing and to ease the burden on that project of the people living there that really doesn't come into the third year but i put it first year just so people could see it and then 38 spaces that we're just not accounted for for anybody that anyone can park in and we the $80 a month estimate is that it's just based on our actual experience with parking lots and those kind of things that wasn't made up and we've done quite a bit of analysis of what we enjoy what we get for pay as you go right now and that was the number we came up with 104 flex spaces so this is really where the finances of the garage work and work well this is what's done with parking garage management around someone has a permit for the lot but if they're not there that day their spots open so someone else parks there and pays so essentially you're charging twice or capital plaza guests primarily use their spaces overnight while they're in the hotel but they're gone during the day so somebody else comes in during the day parks in the spot to do whatever they're doing so um you know you're not cheating anybody it's just maximizing the use of the spot so there will always be more spaces in the garage than when you add up all of these permits and that is actually when you think about it what we do right now is surface parking we have parking lots around we sell $100 a month permit for a sale back here um but if Stephen Mills here had one and he and he wasn't here this week because he took vacation and someone else is parking in that spot paying the daily rate every day but he still has his permit from when he's here so that that is a system that we're already using now and it is the way to run parking bridges so when you look all that then you add the tiff this is the total annual revenue for the garage so if you break it down and I wanted to do this because this really shows graphically where the money is coming from you've got the capital plaza permits in the tiff and the hourly flex permits and all the other permits and I mention this because um I've heard several people say I'm going to talk with more that you know why is the city giving everything to capital plaza and 62 percent of the revenue for this project is coming directly and directly from capital plaza so if it's a 10 million dollar project I think it's fair to say about 6.2 million dollars capitalized it's coming from that group in addition to donating money so I just want to make people understand that um but as you can see other than tiff which is the hotel increment only there's no other property tax in that skip right by the question the answer section we gotta we actually gotta go back into the air you gotta reopen that we need someone younger here for the two of us probably everyone right so the expenses we talked about are pretty straightforward in this project the bond is the biggest one so this this is based on the first 10-year average and I can explain why I did that versus in the annual but it had to do with the no interest in the bond the first few years then full payment so I tried to get a spread but the bond is you know the high 500 thousands the capital reserve against reasons higher than 50 is its average level after 10 years and the expenses themselves are about 90 to 100 thousand dollars so what are those expenses we're not going to add staff there will be a fully automated garage system with parking passes and cars those types of things but as I was told by St. Albans make sure you have plenty of extra gates because people run into them so there are gate supplies there are cleaning emptying trash there is a supplying in the winter if needed there are elevator maintenance and those kinds of things electrical cost utility costs various operating facilities so they they spend less than this in a year but we estimate it high to be safe next please so just looking at the net of this is what we're spending and this is what we're taking in if you look at it cumulatively over time you see the first five years we do really well this is our net income that's because we're only paying interest on the bond for the first four then we actually go through a period of time where where the garage costs a little bit more than it takes in not a lot but a little so we dip into that reserve we built up and then it swings back out and as you can see and then when you get to the 25 year average it dips again because the tip revenue goes off after year 20 so that is kind of the trajectory of the garage and how we expect it to perform based on the assumptions that we have financially okay what are the concerns well first of all we're building a bigger garage in the center of town that's part of the I'm going to talk a lot about the design again but that is clearly a concern that I know is on a lot of people's mind reduce car use in the future we all are hoping for less cars in the future I think there are many reasons we don't know what that looks like we don't know if cars are going to change to different types of vehicles we don't know if they're going to do less cars what we do know is as the mayor said we have a lot of parking I said 610 managed parking spaces plus everything else around there's no reason why if car use really drops that this can't be the last place to keep the parts of the last 348 cars so we're thinking that in over the third years there will still be 348 cars in my failure we don't know but that seems to be what people are projecting uh can't secure permit holders you obviously you all saw the finances if we don't have the 80 permit holders then and as I mentioned we we currently have 60 permit holders without going to any of the bigger employers so we are confident but that is a risk factor we can't find them and finally the flex spaces I explained to you how those work and see how important they are to the finances if people don't park there we don't get those flex spaces or if the permit holders are really successful and are using them all and we can't flex them as much those are all risks but they don't have those risks have not worn out in other other contingencies this is where I get sneak out the back room and say no I didn't actually promise anything it's based on the current financial assumptions we don't have bids so the construction numbers could change interest rates could change any number of circumstances could change so it's also contingent on the council actually saying we're going to put this on a ballot and then the bond vote actually passing so those are huge conditions without those two things happening this project won't go anywhere and finally obtaining regulatory permits we still have to go through a permit process we still have to meet all the requirements we have to do all the necessary things that any other project would do so that is something that has to happen so our next steps are securing our contractors we've pretty much done that now taking the team that is DW construction people are building one Taylor also building the hotel they were secured by us for by a competitive bid process for one Taylor so and they agreed to hold that bid price the bid price for the parking garage I don't know what deal they have but they will be coordinating all three projects at the same time which makes a lot of sense and efficiency the Desmond is a parking garage specialist people really know what they're talking about with this so we're engaging with them to advise us on the automatic updated parking system and other design elements of a parking structure and rabidu architects out of water barrier the people that designed the hotel and the initial parking garage so it made sense to continue them since they already have the knowledge of the product so that's who we'll be working with securing parking commitments we will be talking to try to line up the other parking people completing the design and I don't just mean the external design some people want but but for this to go up and actually be constructed there's real engineering drawings and all that and that takes time so the full structural design permit applications and process and of course public outreach and information much like what we're doing right now so frequently asked questions these are questions that we've heard just since this came up will traffic be reviewed putting a big parking garage in the center town and the answer is yes it has to be it's a permit requirement the city did a traffic study for the one tailor project with the buses that basis of that was used to then do a traffic study for the new hotel and the 200 unit garage and that information will be used to assess this certainly it's in the center of town we can have busy traffic it's a major concern for everybody we also know that parking garages not especially with these uses not everyone believes at the same time so hotel guests come and go at different times people visiting the city there certainly is a morning and afternoon rush I was at the St. Albans hotel they have a very large number of permits that state by and a very large number of permits that they're hinted at by and it was maybe half three quarters full I was like what's that they said well state workers are here all that day and then about five o'clock they leave and the hotel people come in and so we're always half two thirds full even though our numbers show that we're selling out all our spots so I think those are all things that have to come in to factor when we review each other what are the stormwater impacts people are understandably and righteously concerned about our river and lakeshift plane stormwater is a heavily regulated issue we have to get all our stormwater permits we'll note though and our architect said this garage is going on top of paved surfaces so it is already impervious surface that has stormwater now that goes into the city's drain system it's not adding new impervious surface doesn't mean we're not going to try to do the best we can and that we're going to drain it have drainage but the top of the garage is still just as impervious as the asphalt on the bottom but we will be looking at that why is the hotel project leading the schedule well I think the reason is we have an opportunity when you want to do exciting things with economic development sometimes you have to take these opportunities I've been city manager here for 23 years we've been talking about parking and parking garages for all of that time and long before I came this was an opportunity to work together with a private partner create a public good without a massive hit to the taxpayer and as I mentioned they are on a schedule with Hilton therefore for us to work this together they cannot proceed the next question was why don't they just build their own garage I think probably if they would they could if they would have they if they could have they would have not had to get into all this mess and come to meetings and and all of us but the fact is the hotel itself is going to be somewhere in the neighborhood of 17 million dollars the garage as you saw is 10 for this side so maybe it was eight the numbers just didn't work project didn't didn't make sense to carry that whole bit and so it is really a contingent this is truly a but for if we can't build the garage they can't go to the hotel so if this doesn't happen there will be no hotel or garage we they shared kindly shared all of their numbers with our consultant us city officials didn't see them but we have a private real estate consultant that's been working with us they evaluated the performers and they said yes they're correct this is they can't support both and again this is that money is all being financed locally where people obviously clean up their own collateral most kinds of things it's not the Hilton corporation is the city giving capital Plaza a deal well we have a deal we have an agreement but as I mentioned they're paying close to 62 percent of the costs of this project on an annual basis and they're donating the land so they're paying less than they would have paid for themselves but they couldn't afford to do themselves so we're getting a deal because now the city's gaining parking structure and potential meeting a hotel and all the other vitality comes with it I mean those people may have philosophical differences about that but I think in terms of the agreement that was reached it's fair and equitable and certainly everyone is is paying is the design final that's really the biggest thing on the aesthetic board the answer is mostly no there are still chances for making some changes however those are bounded by cost and they're bounded by time and to some extent the mass needed to bring in without this number of cars and really doesn't work spaces excuse me 350 spaces it really doesn't work so those are sort of the boundaries around the design but there are things we can talk about this is a this is a drawing an aerial view a conceptual of the new garage you can see this one is larger than it goes into the 60 state street lot creating still a roadway through and when we said the net new parking spaces we were counting those that are lost on that parking lot so it's not double counting here and this is one version of this garage so some things can change and one is can we build it only on capital product plaza property and not have it go around to the next lot not only freeing up that lot for even more parking but also the farmers market and all the things like that the answer is yes but it's going to require two more stories on the garage so if we want to have a six-story garage rather than a four-story that's the trade-off so it's something we can talk about but it is it does come with its pros and cons can the garage have flat floors to to deal with future reuse the answer is yes that question was asked there's what they call the steep spiral on the end it looks slightly different it could have floors that will add another floor and we still need to go on to the neighboring lot but it can be done so again that's a trade-off and financially for that it's about the same so it wouldn't be a change in finance it would be a change in design and it would be higher what does the greed wall consist of this is the only chance after the night to show so much I know of plants it is going to be wisteria climates and you know the handwriting trumpet finds boston ivy english ivy and virginia creeper and these are apparently types of ivies that grow they are very sustainable in this climate they will be planted into the ground around it will require some watering and maintenance at the beginning the first year or two as they start to grow and then kind of manage on their own after this was our architectural team recommended this for the garage that that is taking the garage design that capital plaza had approved and extending it we could certainly look at other facades when you start talking about things like brick or granite or anything like that you start getting really expensive you know underneath that is basically concrete facet so i think the idea that a living community type thing is preferable so i mentioned the maintenance cost it's built into our annual maintenance it really isn't substantial can a roof be added for public use a lot of people have asked about a roof that's some good ideas because we have a another roof and maybe create a create a green roof and have it be a public park an elevated public park there's a fantastic ideas a roof that does not support those things adds another 1.2 to 1.5 million dollars to the project just a roof to cover structural supports we added the additional weight support and those kind of things for the activity would be more that is not support that kind of money is not supported in this pro forma now if we wanted to make a collective decision that we were willing to spend tax money for those kind of amenities that that's a different discussion but in terms of the financial pro forma of this this project that doesn't fly but it could be done how does this impact sight lines at its current height it's actually at or below the Hampton Inn all of those sight lines were viewed reviewed by design review so there would not be any obstruction in the major review sheds and so another question we had is can parking be reduced at one Taylor's people say well get rid of all the parking one Taylor move them all into the garage we have a bigger green space at one Taylor and we maybe can't we can't reduce all of it like I talked about housing Vermont today we have the city has already signed a lease with them for parking which we can't break unilaterally and which all their financing is based on so their project has been successfully financed going with the premise that there was on-site parking for their residents we think though even honoring that we may be able to reduce some I don't have the number yet we'll take a look at that so we could possibly open up some additional green space but can't get rid of all of them but we can try to maintain a little bit more green and then finally can net zero principles be included we have set a goal for net zero and we're building a big old parking garage how does that we get that yeah first thing we've we've started looking at is putting solar panels on the top there would be above the top level parking our estimates tell us that you can power the entire garage except for the elevators so all the internal lighting every other electric vehicle charging stations all those kinds of things can be powered from these panels so we are actively doing that in the project obviously we will look at the materials and other sustainable things again so guess we are thinking about some of those this is a ground level elevation with the same garage you saw the aerial view so obviously from the ground you don't see that open roof you wouldn't see the solar panels and this is again that right hand side is into the heating parking lot you see the new garage on the left hand side so just another view are the things we could do with that green wall of course do we want to have more openings yes we want to put some art on the side all very positive all very good structure and size unless as I mentioned we want to trade and go higher to get some other elements is basically so opportunities for public participation obviously we have a council meeting on october 3rd when they decide whether to go ahead with this we've got a public information session tonight and if you need to have a follow-up you can certainly do that there will be a formal public information hearing sometime between october 27 and november 5 date has yet not yet been set that is required for the bond vote so we have an opportunity for people to hear about the final proposal and advocate for or against to their fellow voters in addition there will be a permit here is our design review committee board meetings where this is considered these are all over to the public and there was active participation on the initial hotel garage project and we don't expect we will continue participation we will be putting regular information on the web the front porch forum in the bridge on all the usual places where the city gives information of what's happening and again bond vote on november 6 the ultimate participation for this project is when you get to vote up or down and any other suggestions that people have for what we can do for public discourse certainly open to lots of different things and we'd like to hear what people have to say so i'm done talking at you we'd like to get your questions comments and suggestions i'll answer questions to the best that i am able i'm certainly just going to comment and that's all i have to say we have 50 minutes left okay okay the question was where are the 50 surface spaces coming from and where are they going to do you find the slides like a site plan it's a drawing it's not a conceptual drawing so the current spaces that exist now if you go behind Christchurch and capital Plaza parking lot that back corner the city leases those those are public parking spaces now so obviously there's a great garage so those won't be available but in this design oh you had it can't see it did people want me to turn the light off again yeah that's yeah so all the blue in the middle here so the white in the front is the current capital Plaza in the back in the middle is the new Hampton Inn to the right is the smaller parking garage not not the one we're talking about the blue is basically pavement the road in the road out or both it'll be two way but the access is in and out of the hotel in and out of the parking garage etc in the middle it just shows trees and all that's hard to tell in this thing but there are about 60 parking spaces created on that site plan surface parking spaces the hotel needs about 10 or so for themselves for their uses their tenants and so the city will lease the remaining 50 for public parking so essentially replacing what's under that garage now moving over here i hope that answered your question any other questions pardon yeah will the new enlarged parking structure open into the lot as well that is to be determined it possibly could it's a significant so there's pros and cons that one no i'm sorry the question was can the proposed new will the proposed new larger garage exit have an exit and entrance off of the he knew what the 60 states we want as well as the center here by the capital class and it could in fact the initial sketch by our architect included that and there are advantages to that i've spent a long time talking to st. almonds about this yesterday if you have a gate go down goes out of function and people have another way to get out rather than just having to open it let everybody out free so that's a good thing it's always good to have second the downside of it is that these automatic parking management systems are not inexpensive and so you have to double you have to have them at both entrances so double gate system double electronic pass systems those kind of things the current budget only includes one set we're looking to see how so that that could be if if that were to happen then would that allow the lowest level of parking to be replaced i understand that had to be removed because of floodplain issues the lowest level of the parking structure so the question was if that happened does that allow the lowest level of parking to be returned i guess because of floodplain i don't know the answer to that i don't understand that all that floodplainial things so we will get an answer to that bill now i know i believe white merc were your consultants for the tip project in a whole bit were they also the consultants for the financing for yes this garage yes so the questions were white merc consultants for the financing yes they were and can i have a follow-up on that yeah um i know that on the tip proposal they were a little there were some assumptions that were built into their their model and i was wondering if they had some hard numbers something that we could shed a little bit more light on the actual financing so the question is do we have something that can shed more light on the financing and what do you mean i mean basically some of their assumptions i just want to see what their assumptions were you know what the um average cost per day per space you know i'm just trying to figure out what their what the math was behind some of the stuff sure i think we can certainly provide that i mean basically the numbers that i ran for you right now we're based were all those assumptions the cost and revenues and usage patterns we do have a spreadsheet their full pro forma was reviewed by um state for uh does it make sense i mean they didn't approve whether you know we should do the project but the economic people at department of commerce went through it and their report was yes these are reasonable assumptions yes this is good the tiff application was broader based because it was done before there was a specific project we kind of had two parallel tracks we were getting a tiff district approved and then negotiating this specific project and so they were actually under two different contracts with us one one is the financial man was the one is up till is there a way though we can understand more what tiff is i know you've explained it but telling is interesting and as you go through these numbers it's very confusing and okay boyfriend of the phd doesn't get it so it's it's it's my eye you are not alone so the question was can i explain more about what tiff is and try to make it more understandable and it's one of those things that is once you get it it's kind of really simple but explaining it is very difficult so i i you know so i'm going to try what i think so it's called a tax increment financing with district so any property in that district is sort of their their property else everyone let's pretend this house is everyone here your house has a value right so that's your tax value that just goes to the city in the school just like it always does but let's say you built a second house on your property you're in this district and now that's going to be an extra two hundred thousand dollars in value so your tax bill is going to be another five thousand and but in order to build that project which is going to be a great thing for the city because a whole bunch of great things are going to happen there you need a new road you need another road coming around and lo and behold if we just spent six thousand dollars a year for 20 years we could the city could build that road so taking that new tax increment from that new project to build this public public infrastructure which helps that project happen but now it's also opened up a couple of other lots that could also maybe have new houses so whereas we haven't touched the house chart yet that's just the same as the other ones so it's it's really trying to say what what is the new increment that's what that means it's the tax increment and you only use that additional increment to finance public projects we can't take taxing like we're using this project we couldn't take the tax increment and just give it to the capital clauses here this is a subsidy for your project it has to be for a public infrastructure that benefits more than justified that right so we also couldn't have used the tax increment financing and built the 200 unit garage basically it said yeah that's unit 200 spaces so wink wink that's our public garage that wouldn't pass the test because there's no public benefit to that the larger garage creates the public benefit therefore we can use the 150,000 of new tax money from that to go into the trust because it's helping their project happen but it's also helping potentially other projects that someone else could come in downtown and say gee I never could have developed downtown but now there's less like a park so it's helping to steam it I hope that helped I'll try again later something we'll be going towards the steam bill as a follow-up to that can you explain the relationship of TIFT districts to the education fund yes the advantage of using a TIFT district from the municipal perspective and I know there's differences also that is that 70% of this of the education tax and most of us as homeowners right we pay about 40% of our tax bill comes to the city about 60% goes for school taxes some large portion of which goes to the state ed fund and then we fund it out under TIFT 70% of that education tax goes into the TIFT fund so for these types of projects municipalities get to access funds that they wouldn't otherwise get ed funds the theory behind it is that these that the ed fund never would have gotten this money because the project wouldn't have been built so the ed funds are getting 30% that would have been zero to this hotel doesn't get built right no one's getting that $150,000 not the city of the ed fund so by using that new increment that's actually 70% so their taxes are always higher than that but the rest will go to the state that's that's how that works which is why the TIFT district has to go through very robust review at the state level which will be approved because essentially the state is for building potential education uh Dan all right this is this is how I want the financing I have other questions but this specifically uh when you were looking at the contingencies before if uh because we live in interesting economic times um what if the hotel doesn't make its numbers uh let's say and so the available leasing of those uh spots uh fails to materialize in the early revenue well who's on the book for the uh the cost well ultimately there's some questions what happens if the hotel doesn't make its numbers and um who's on the book so first of all the hotel has a way to sub we can't steal customer data that's that's way down they were right to suffer so they find they don't need as many they can at least be the best but ultimately I mean it's called like it is this is a city bond it's being it's backed by a full-fledged credit of the city so if the whole thing should collapse yes the taxpayers would have to pay for the high data can't cope that in any way but they do have a contract they would be required to leave that and I would go with any if they sold it to another hotel in there then it's like any long term financing agreement but obviously we're hoping this will help to succeed so I had less than a jail I can't believe we're seeing as we're up the first less than three pairs of those I mean let's go back to those 50 spots and who owns those 50 spots the city owns all the you mean the 50 spots now the the 50 spots the blue but the blue 50 spots are going to be owned by capital plots at least by the city just as they are now there's no change in the current status just a different location so how long is at least four years 30 10 was option to a regular 10 option to begin that's that 625 now yes but we would be currently lease has gone for 25 years and the current option was 10 like I said cars reduce and we don't need it and I don't know we haven't discussed longer is there you're looking like you have a follow-up question so I don't want to rob you out of it okay chill and I'm wondering about the $93,000 maintenance and getting rust stains all over our cars needs a lot of work and the gate fell down on someone I know very recently might be on the hook if something happens to the city so we're very grateful we're you know we're the increased insurance costs considered in this project how much do I need $3,000 or my bet and how the stack increases and was another venue considered like the pit across the street which is already ugly so there's two questions about questions so let me deal with one and then the other because the main costs would have been the same no matter where the location is so the there is a long list of things that are included but basically we we talked to other municipal garage people as well as the people that like Desmond and there's no one called Simon and something that are basically parked in the garage next to what they do they give you a recommended so it includes the annual operating what is it going to be as I said we're not staffing that's usually a very when somebody puts a person there like an attendant that right there adds a huge cost well so you do so there are annual elevator and gate certifications maintenance that if you do them I can't speak from the circumstance and how much maintenance that people have been private there's a very detailed schedule of what needs to be done when joints need to be fixed and repaired and when the floor needs to be resealed and those kinds of things and that is all included in the annual as well as the capital reserve as I mentioned a good point St. Albans has about six gates in a storage site right there so they replace them quickly and they check and they have a person that goes to a full-time position where the city person just goes through every day and picks up litter and you know empties the trash and those kinds of things they have a contract for you know top floor is open so it's no season you got to clear that out big city trucks so those are parts of the cost as I said elevator maintenance those are the elements so it's not staffed because it's actually maintenance services service contracts for all of these things and it's pretty detailed as I said St. Albans is in relatively the same market and I think we assumed it might be more costly here than there they're spending around 60 or 70 years all the services as well as they are also setting the 50s jump all right yeah you're right she had a second part of your question so locations we have spent a long time looking at all sorts of locations and there are pros and cons to really all of them we have looked at a bit and in fact continued to look at the bit as a source of development one you know the new development could use this or a smaller depth could still happen this this isn't going to solve the entire part of the problem so I'll play it in short but there are problems one is as big as that pit is it's owned by sort of three separate owners so Vermont Mutual has shown no interest in wanting to do this they've been very very clear with the federal government on the other side behind the post office since 9 11 they've been talking nope can't get anyone near us the state has been willing to talk to us as they have been also at the site across from one tailor but the state owns 100 some 106 parking spaces they're already been free they've paid for it so they've said fine you can build a garage here we get 106 spaces free because we already own 106 spaces we'll use our land you can do what you want well you try running these numbers with a quarter of the garage not producing any revenue and it stops becoming easy not say it couldn't happen but that's it so when we did a study the spaces that came out were ironically enough before this was ever proposed one of the top spaces was exactly where we're putting the garage a second was the parking lot right behind obichon's unless that back there it's getting in out of those narrow alleys and traffic that was problematic we talked about putting it out back here with those issues with wedge and again all the traffic we're going to be state and coming through when the emergency vehicles are uh mentioned the pit site to taylor street which is directly across the big huge state parking lot um in fact before i started the state proposed to go to 600 unit garage here and i am told that the locals here went out of the black deck and it didn't happen um so but one of the arguments about that was that it's too far it doesn't serve the downtown shop it's really just the state pulley parking and the other issue is it isn't right on the riverbank but financially it's the same problem they have 166 surface spaces and they said fine we can do it but we get the 166 so we'll take 200 and build what you want and in fact we looked at that as part of this with capital plaza they you know they wanted 200 so the city was going to do all this stuff and get you know 25 spaces or something that doesn't make any sense so we have certainly looked at it but also it's driven in some part by the fact that here was an opportunity there was a private development for the parking there was a chance to have economic development they were willing to donate land and pay full freight they're not getting break from their parking rates they'll pay the same as anybody else so that's how it was but it wasn't just careless Joe so i know that one of the big questions over the last couple years was the redox of the master plan new zoning and i know that one of the key things in the city council has been more housing have they looked at any other uses of the cider had you guys come to the conclusion other than the fact that the shards had an opportunity to put a hilt or a hampton in on this property i mean your consultants should have looked at other potential uses for this site did they what did they rule on the housing so um we didn't necessarily look at other uses on this site understanding this site is presently owned by the capital plaza so you know this was their opportunity to say we have some land to bring to the table for this project it needs a city need and also be surprising me that said we've spent a fair amount of time and they have to try to accommodate the housing project of christ church and as we in the city of course is constructing now housing project right behind so certainly uh housing remains a top priority but so does uh commercial development a good question but was it our land just to use for other purposes your question jack bill uh what's i've heard uh questions about the provision for electric vehicle charging can you talk about that uh so we will be including electric vehicle charging um i can't tell you off again what how many spaces there are but there will be some i can't remember soon before or whatever uh saint alvin's has that we've got to figure out whether it will be paid for the charging um but there will be electric vehicles and there will be capacity load capacity built in assuming that there's growth in demand could i see yeah i'd like to question you i looked at the 2015 traffic study that was done by the boy and king and that's very different in scope and detail than the trip generation analysis that was done by the bishara architect uh and i don't see how this timing is going to line up if you're going to do a complete traffic study of the generation of the combined free projects plus the construction of free simultaneous projects you do need a traffic study yesterday you know because this could gridlock the town for the next year with all that construction of three different projects simultaneously plus the new added traffic of the garage you're describing a two-way street there's no way to put a street with right away through the by the norfield sales bank there's just insufficient right away to put this a street there so you're talking about using a little driveway and a little driveway out the back of the capital pleasant for 348 cars and it just doesn't pass the straight face test so are you looking at the combined yes okay i don't have the detailed answers to all your questions and appreciate um but certainly that you know it's a two-way street now the traffic comes in and out it's a cluster uh well wouldn't be a high speed street street but yes all of those need to be considered right but to have be putting a confluence park you know out behind a parking garage you know i showed you that but i'll pass that around it just nobody's going to want to go to our confluence park if it's tucked behind a parking garage and it's the wrong place for a parking structure and i believe we're barreling down this path and we've lost the objectivity of the city evaluation the city is now a promoter of this obviously and we need to back off or hire an independent advocate to take the place that the city has critical evaluator of such a project so i understand your concern we as i said we still expect all of our people we didn't permit review meetings with our staff that's doing this i didn't attend and was very clear i'm not going to be trying to log in they have to do their jobs and expect that we are in the regulator here uh but we're also putting the other deal we have recently formed a popular development corporation and we expect that for future projects like this they would be doing the role of the city's been doing and for frankly we'd log them out we do the independent voice that makes a lot of sense because they they can be the advocate there's the same thing obviously the active 50 review and there is no active okay so but the full design review development and review board all that stuff's going to be completed in time for a November month so to be clear it's an amendment to an existing program i believe no the city is a different applicant i just need so i'm not going to argue with them tell you that i believe it goes faster than the full process because there's it's working off an existing part maybe you know i wasn't at the meeting because i told you so i don't actually know all of the wise what's it we're for but technically the city projects don't have to comply with design review we will go through it anyway as because we should but the development review board has all the same criteria that everybody else is trying to get back to the neighborhood all those things we have to do all those tests just that you would anybody else and they said independently we don't have any conversation with them the council doesn't talk to them i don't talk to them as far as what they decide in your presentation you kind of gave a short trip to the view shed analysis and said that's all been done and i just did this walk the circuit taking pictures and every church spire from all that whole circuit around memorial drive back across taylor every church spire is going to be instructed by this garage you know these are our landmarks this is our our town that what i said was that i actually didn't say it had already been done i said it was done for the capital plaza project needs to be updated but the height of the product the height of the garage was um not about that but it does have to be done that is a criteria i think we're taking shortcuts and we shouldn't we should slow this down and let gilton extend its window for franchise agreement this i guess is a maintenance question for a lack of a better word looking at the designs it's your basic concrete box with a lipstick green lipstick on it um the uh the first thing is i've been following a lot of stuff in structural engineering you're just seeing reports within other places that turns out our steel reinforced concrete has some actual problems especially if roads sold and while the moisture is getting irregular it tends to not last uh that long one of the things i'm proud of of our town is that it's got a downtown etc that surpasses a hundred years old this is going to be somewhat of an ugly box with green lipstick on it that is going to be sitting there and i'm wondering if that many thought has been given to other ways of making this so that it is not so dependent on the concrete box one of the ways i would like to suggest is that you look at or consider the design of the rather than the green ivy could you consider something that looked more like state street you know where it was uh breaking windows and stuff so that it echoed the town and looked like it was part of the place rather than uh you know sort of this sandbox over there i i i would like to ask if that could be done and i i know there will be a clause so so two things on that one i don't know that the particulars we did actually speak quite a bit with the construction and the design people about the structural stability of this in this climate and apparently there are two two ways to build these one is the steel reinforced the other is something else and i don't know what it is so they were very clear they they were doing the long lasting one that is the extent of my knowledge of it the second you know the box is a function of the efficiency staff the ramps and the abilities for cars whether they're flat floors with a spiral or you have to get that many vehicles in so it's you can't really do alternate shapes as far as external view i mean we could do anything people want if we're going to spend money it really does come down to that we can't do so two things one in the current project budget we could make some improvements like i said we can open up our windows we can do some things some trims i think there's a lot of things that could be done but not substantial if we were to break or do anything that's it's a very significant cost we could choose to do that because if we were to choose to do that i think that's going to be a loving beyond for example i don't i don't see why we would ask the permit holders who for whom we have plus where we've reached an agreement on permit rights based on what it costs to we're going to bump up your permit price because they're paying 60 percent of this just so we can all have so i think that's the criticism but i understand that this is that one customer that you're building this for well there's things we're not building it for one customer but they're paying a large share of what it costs and there's there's given cake it's not all it's not all one way so i think that the city wants to spend i don't know what the cost will have an estimate more maybe we put a separate article on the ballot that says use the garage and if yes would you really spend x more to have with an exterior i don't know i'm thinking a lot of the mayor's clarion but um we'll uh you know fair enough but it's all mine well to follow up on that question as the city considered as apparently disgusting regard that putting um commercial or residential um facilities on the garage so that our city gateway that in fact isn't just a parking lot but has some commercial and residential mentality you're going to tell me it's going to cost more or you'll have to figure out the cost have you undertaken any sort of analysis like that or will you we can uh and no we haven't but what i'm told what i understand is that the restriction is the site itself you know the size of dimensions of the site so if we were to put some so basically every square foot that's a little bit of exaggeration but the garage it's built to to maximize the number of parking spaces in the garage so to build an office or a retail space into the building is going to remove parking spaces so it becomes less less beneficial for its prime use so then you go higher so it's not that it couldn't be done it's there in that case it's not probably even the money issue it's a because presumably there'll also be lease money coming in from those spaces i'm thinking it's gonna it's going to trade off in height um wanted to thank you because i've been obviously in email communication with bill in the last couple of days until the last hours and he's been very gracious in responding i um some of my questions have been around um what what with the design how would the design change if we had flat floors for the parking uh you know would it require ramps going around the outside of the building would that change the size of the building and and the other question was what could we potentially do on the top of the building some ideas that have emerged in my conversations with people in my pillar have been a green space um as people uh tennis courts all sorts of different ideas and uh you know i i do think we have a pardon me but you know but there are some potential other uses that would i think address a little bit of what we're talking about here which would bring some life to an otherwise fairly i don't need to say sterile but uh you know uh not as vital exactly and so you know i i wonder how we can efficiently uh determine what some of those costs might be in the future and have a potentially a two-step plan where we build the garage with enough capacity weight capacity to do something more and i guess my other question is so i'm just kind of not really asking a question do are we limited to five floors well our zoning was six oh but i didn't realize that but we've also heard people talking about viewsheds and other values in the community and mass so if it's already too big and hideous and we add a couple more floors to it so i think there's there's a lot of trade-offs i mean you may have come in ladies with me thanks to your prompting i tried to answer some of those questions we can do the the flat floor it's actually what they call the steep spirals on the ends of the building so probably would look a little different they're probably able to spiral things on the end of it or could get i think a rendering for that it turned out the cost for that is about the same as what we're doing now but it required an additional floor so that was a trade-off but we'll get a sense of what that might look like as far as the upper floor i said this earlier about how since you were the one that caused me to say i'll say it again we um to just put us a roof on the building would be about 1.2 to 1.5 million that doesn't include the load bearing for human use or anything additional on top of that now those who are ballpark estimate members would chase that out but again i think those are additional costs what i've asked for in late this afternoon was do i have an answer yet was what would it cost to do extra load to potentially add a roof in the future and thank you for all your great suggestions. So a lot of what i'm hearing is about concerns about the visual impact of the parking garage um so i'm originally from the uk and a lot of our garages kind of go underground and i understand there's problems because of being so close to the river but has any anything been done any evaluation not going under versus going up even if it's just one floor down or anything to do about it. So earlier question that barb asked about parking so our preference would be to go down for the reasons that you met and i mean we couldn't put the whole thing underground but to minimize the max um but there are floodplain issues and there are issues with how you you know person or gets caught down below the surface and water comes in it is in a federal flood plain so we have certain precautions and there are certain limits to how far we can go down i was the same question just i don't have details but it is it is a restricting fact we got fire oh sorry um just as sort of a follow-up of dance um our new zoning has architectural standards for the urban poor um and as i agreed them it would probably not allow for a concrete box with lipstick um it so is has consideration been given to looking at the architectural standards this is all going through the planning office like i said we had a permanent meeting yesterday with the whole team and i publicly didn't attend oh i see too kind of keep our rules separate so i don't know i will say that i believe and i can be wrong but this may be because it's an existing permit maybe coming into the prior so questions of fact um the original project for the hotel and the garage i believe 17 million dollars is not correct um so if you take away the garage because the city is going to pay for that what's that make the the real term cost for the hotel most of all i'm not qualified to answer that question okay one of the answers that it's $15 but just thank you the second question is um the original garage is going to be four stories this is the larger garage between five stories i believe it's still four i reserve the right to be corrected i believe it's the former people but like okay and um if you push into that meeting note um how am i back to the fact that the problem is not going to be in discussions we want to resolve that okay well follow on to that what's the actual i'm not sure part garage for the sake of the commercial right we will get those dimensions somebody asked me that right before this meeting and i realized that i didn't have other than winging it so we get to add that to the public information that comes out the actual dimensions uh so that i just wanted to say that in the research that i've done um since john snow talked about flat floors at the council meeting um it turns out that the height for a standard garage that is angle is typically different than the height of a flat forward uh garage that is then going to be refurbished thermal to use building so the height uh the minimum i guess is somewhere around 11 or 12 feet and the preferred is 15 feet so a flat structure garage would potentially make the entire structure higher by uh potentially 15 feet or so right that was right that was the feet that we got it was a trade-off of height yeah that's the right question i'm just wondering what the square footage was Steve see it's just why he has the height i don't want to height you know i don't want to guess so we will we'll put that out tomorrow i just don't have the exact dimensions and i'd rather have them be so my understanding on the $10 million bond is that then there's six million dollars of interest over 30 years is that going to be conveyed to the people who are voting so they understand that there's a 30-year commitment of at least yeah i mean so first of all i appreciate the concern we certainly look at that every bond we vote that is the exact same circumstance of when you borrow money you pay it back with interest and so every school bond every city bond it lists the usually lists the term and the exit and the uh and the expected interest rate i don't know if we've actually calculated might actually pay for some but it is but it's right and that's but that's you know um there's but there's a couple factors that number one most communities don't just have 10 million dollars to pay cash for this or any other major project and the other is now this is a little bit different because of the way it's being paid for with the users but even if it was just a general fund project we're going to build a new bridge let's say essentially that is the appreciation for municipal government so the people who live here today don't get sucked with paying all 10 million dollars and then the users in 20 years don't so by having you know someone leaves town moves in the people who moved in 10 years from now are paying their share of the project and they're getting the benefit so but you borrow money you pay for it that's and if the maintenance is such 30 years and it's a is there going to have to be another fund to fix it up well i i mean i don't know the exact answer to that but that's not that different from other infrastructure that we do the estimated life this is about 40 years and by then there won't be any cars because the end will get weirded and so we could end up just tearing it down at the end of its useful life because the meaning won't be there as much but it will have served its purpose in the meantime and then paid for through the users or repurposed it yes indeed gentlemen quick question now the parking garage i know we're going to show on time the parking garage is only one part of what we're going to be voting on on November 6th we're actually going to be voting on the whole entire tiff district and are you guys you guys are separating the split there's no vote the tiff district is done okay gotcha that's happening that's we now have a tiff district so what the voters vote on is any projects that are borrowing money that are using tip funds so like this so they so in the future any other projects we did within the tiff district projects was that that was if we did everything but there's no guarantee that each individual project gets gets goes through process just like this so there's no no commitment to be done it you best tip in fact someone just turned your tip you got it you never used it and turned it back because so they passed it but never did any of the projects so no he wasn't talking about that he was talking about tip projects but there may be another another item we do have just i do not want to derail this conversation in the last six minutes we are looking at a big upgrade of our water our wastewater treatment plan and that's kind of it's a whole different night but different funding different benefits when will we actually have a site plan an elevation plan of what is actually being proposed we're working on that now obviously something that has to be submitted as an application so i can't get the exact date but i'd say we've done a couple things and you know every time we have these conversations every time we get suggestion i send it to our folks and say is this something we can do this is possible what does this mean or what do we look like what are the options and taking these comments very seriously we get it this is going to be the center of our community we want it to be the best it can be just a quick thing about when those site plans are available on you know and it's great to have them digitally i think that's wonderful but it turns out that not everybody is a digital person and so if those could be available either through the library or through one of the offices here that'd be fantastic because we're people to be able to take them home we have the unclear people are so thoughtful and considered and need some time and need a look at these things and have multiple copies so that they can look at them might be great yeah i think that's a great idea and certainly would set those out every way possible i could foresee the city manager writing a bridge article with all this information and putting updated influences in that i think you might have it on his mind councilman member glenn hotchison this year has actually gave me a good suggestion last week that we use our hall space to put up information like any of our same projects not just this one so anybody coming in can just see this is this is the parking garage this is the wastewater plate this is the whatever there's pictures of it here's the general information so alternate scenarios to the extent that we have them so um we got five minutes till eight o'clock not that that was a hard stop does anybody else have anything to add i don't ask say are you for extending longer time i want to briefly say that i've done the massing preliminarily of this garage and you can you can do a two-level garage spanning the pit from the pavilion all the way to the sheriff's office with the third floor in the park like scenario that you're talking about food carts etc housing housing i mean we we need to think this carefully if we're making a 10 million 60 million plus 40 year commitment to potentially trash our waterfront we really need to think carefully about our alternatives and whether or not the advent of like trend passenger rail coming to and from the junction and the 302 and on the bearing is going to alleviate a lot of the need for this i think a lot of the state commuters would rather leave their cars out there and take the train into town uh than to congest the cars with day-long parking so i don't think we're i think we're rushing this to meet a bashar hillton deadline and it could be a grave mistake and that we could we could slow this down and do a thorough analysis i don't think you could speak on behalf of the current day for mount mutual i've heard conflicting information from one of our council members nor the federal government with ladies clout on the so this the state is open to this i think we need to revive as your tip consultant said we were doing in their tip plan we need to revive discussion about the potential to use the entire pit lot as an alternative to this i'm also told that could work in concert with the new hotel but it would also spread things out over time and not create this three projects simultaneously with a huge truck unending traffic problem anyone else going once going twice thank you for spending a hot summer evening with us appreciate all your questions and the input that's been very helpful i hope you got something out of it as well and please stay in touch with the process


What's going on everybody? Chad here and today I want to show you this neck brace that I got sent. So I sit at my desk for really long periods of time and the tension in my neck and my shoulders just build and build and build and I have no relief. That's where this comes in. So this is here to support my neck in a very comfortable manner. So when you get this you're actually going to notice you get a sleeve with it. What does that sleeve for? This actually goes over the neck brace so it's easier for cleaning. You just take that off. It's machine washable. You don't have to worry about it. This is not machine washable. You definitely have to take a soft brush and scrub that out if you get anything on it and you need to clean it. So it's a very very soft spongy material but it's also rigid on the inside to help support your neck. So it has both the soft and hard feelings to it. It has a velcro back so it's very easy to use and this is a no hair pull type of velcro. So while that doesn't matter for me it will help my wife out. So I can pop this on during the day especially when I'm working and I can take this. I can take a nap and I am super comfortable. All right so I had used it quite a few times and I have to say it does exactly what it says it's going to do. It does give you that support while being very comfortable. That V design is definitely a must. The velcro in the back super easy to use. So while I may get compensated for my reviews this is something I would definitely highly recommend.


From the heart of the jungle comes a savage cry of victory. This is Tarzan, Lord of the Jungle. From the black core of dark Africa, land of enchantment, mystery and violence, comes one of the most colorful figures of all time, transcribed from the immortal pen of Edgar Rice Burroughs. Tarzan, the bronzed white sun of the jungle. And now in the very words of Mr. Burroughs, the story of the omen of the emerald. Rise in the northern sector of Africa, the river Bugara, which winds its way to the borders of the forbidden land of Zoroka. No white man has ever ventured into the ill-omen land of Zoroka. None, that is, except one Lord Kingsley and his lady, whose disappearance twenty years before the time of our story has become somewhat of a legend. And perhaps the following account would never have been recorded, were it not that Tarzan had one day noted the ominous maneuvers of ska, the vulture, laying low overhead, circling some creature not yet quite dead. As Tarzan made his way to the spot, Numa the lion dropped from a ledge and moved cautiously toward the form lying motionless on the ground. The form of a white man. The man stirred at the sound of the king of beasts, struggled to rise only to fall back, terrified, staring at the huge creature. No, no!  Don't come close, man. Both of you, you'll stay away, away! I perfectly still. Agarra, Numa! Agarra, no! He is gone now. Are you all right? I guess so, thanks to you. For a moment I thought I was done for. Numa was not hungry, just curious. But there would have been much danger if you had attempted to flee. I couldn't. Two weeks from exhaustion. Lack of food. Oh, do not try to rise. I will carry you to safer ground where you can rest. Then I will find nourishment for you. Thanks, my friend. Then you must tell me who you are, what you are doing in this part of the jungle alone, without weapons. It's peaceful here. You'd hardly expect to find a spot like this in the heart of a menacing jungle. There are many beautiful places to be found in this country. If you know where to find them. Are you feeling better now? Almost like myself again. I am indebted to you for saving my life from the lion. And now for food and rest. You owe me no debt. I would do as much for Numa. Strange one.  I am called Tarzan. Tarzan? Not Tarzan, Lord of the Jungle. This is impossible. I was born in the jungle and am familiar with its ways. Let that be enough. More important, who are you? I'm not as wilderness alone. It's a long and almost unbelievable story. Then you'd better start at the beginning. Very well. I'm Stanley Ford, an American. I'm a writer of sorts and an adventurer. Who has been subjected to too much adventure. I am listening. I have seen things which civilization could not possibly comprehend. I have been prisoner of the fiercest tribe of warrior women in the world, loved and befriended by the most beautiful girl ever to step foot on this earth. I have... I am more interested in what you're doing here. I'll come to that presently. Tell me, have you ever seen an emerald the size of your fist? There have been rumors that such a one exists. Have you seen it? Not exactly. Although I have been under its evil influence. In civilization it would be worth a fortune. You hope to acquire this great emerald? That wasn't my original intention. But don't misunderstand me. I wouldn't pass it up if it were handed to me. No, my purpose in coming here was to obtain information about Lord and Lady Kingsley, who disappeared completely into thin air about 20 years ago. There have been many searches made. All unsuccessful. Then you know about them too? My search also was unsuccessful. They're dead, both of them. And you know where they died? Yes. You see, I have just returned from the forbidden land of Zoroka. We shall return to our story in just a moment. The heralds lie in wait for those who penetrate the heart of the jungle. Not all of those who enter return to relate their experiences. Tarzan, Lord of the jungle, has upon this occasion protected and befriended one of them, Stanley Ford, the first white man ever to escape from the forbidden land of Zoroka. But our story has only begun. It's the most terrifying country imaginable ruled by the Fiendies Tosca under the cursed spell of the great emerald. You spoke of a beautiful girl. Ah, yes, Lorena. She is extremely beautiful, but very unhappy. Who is she? Queen of Zoroka. She's the daughter of the Tosca. But it's a funny thing. He's dark and Lorena is white. I have no proof, of course, but I think she's really Lord Kingsley's daughter. Does it not bother you that you may never know? I intend to find out. I won't leave here until I do. You're in love with this girl? The one you call Lorena? Very much. But I'm also loyal to Quinn. If he still lives, I intend to rescue him as well as Lorena. If all that you say is true, perhaps I can help you. You? You'll organize an expedition? No, Tarzan works alone. Oh, then we'd better forget it. Even you are not a match for the Tosca. Or for Gima, the cruelest of all warrior women. We shall see. As soon as you're rested, we will set out for the land of Zoroka. My friend, I'm rested. Say no more. Let's get going. And so Tarzan and the American adventurer started out on their long trek to the far side of the land of Zoroka, where they hoped to gain entrance without encountering the main horde of warrior guards. It would be a long and arduous journey at best, but they wasted no time in making their way through the jungle. On the second day, both were beginning to feel safe from pursuit, and suddenly the bronzed white sun of the jungle grasped his companion by the arm and flung him into the overgrowth at the side of the trail. What the... What's the matter Tarzan? Someone is almost upon us. Gima, and the warrior women of Zoroka. Do not move. There are many of us surrounding you.  Come on Tarzan, run! Come on, make a break! Your friend has better sense. See how you like this. No! So, so you do not like Gima's whip, huh? Let's open her. Bring the prisoner back. You... You and your fiendish bullwhip! It is best not to disobey the orders of Gima. Under the circumstances, she's right. You took a long chance. I guess our plans will have to be postponed permanently. The beast... Silence! We have uncovered a rare prize with the capture of this bronzed one, huh? A mug of water. What are they so tickled about? They say I look very healthy and strong and that I will make an excellent addition to those already confined to the palace dungeon in Zoroka, including Mr. Quinn. Very funny. This ends everything. And I got you into this mess. You'll not lose hope, all is not lost. And now, Mr. Ford, you and your friend will accompany me back where you came from, to Zoroka. And I warn you, one false move and you will again feel the stinging of it. Tagawara! Tagawara! Into the dungeon, both of you. This time, Gima will see to it that there is no escape. Soodawara! Welcome home, stranger. Quinn! Don't tell me you didn't expect to see me. After all, I'm not getting around much these days. Good old Quinn. You never seem to lose your sense of humor. I guess I don't need to ask you whether you had a successful trip. Glad to know you're alive. Who's your friend? He saved my life in the jungle. Only to wind up here, too. Tarzan, this is a man I told you about. Tarzan? No. Well, so you're Tarzan.  Well, as you see, I live quietly in the jungle. But it is possible that stories have been told about me. I'll say they have. Glad to have you with us, although I guess that's not much cause for celebration. You'll be forced to share our fate. Your fate may not be as black as it seems. Take a look around, your friend. See any possibility of escape? Bare rock walls, one tiny barred window, a slit in the door? I know. I've been here before. You what? They've captured you? When I was commissioned to search for Lord and Lady Kingsley, I was captured as you were and thrown into this same dungeon. Then you knew about this place all the time? Yes. That is why I decided to help you. Then you must have escaped before. Certainly they didn't release you. I did escape, but not from this dungeon. Although I could have much easier than the way I was forced to. Well, then how do you explain to me? I will show you something. Do you see that section of the wall? The section that seems darker than the rest? It's just a section of reinforcement. It deceives you. Watch while I turn this bar at the window. A secret passageway? Well, I'll be. And to think that I went over this cell with a fine tooth comb for weeks. I must close it before we're discovered. Do you know where the passageway leads? To the Queen's Chamber, but she is not aware of it. To Larina's Chamber? Yes. This passageway was created long before the time of Tosca's reign. None of the present generation know about it. Well, things are looking brighter. You overlook one thing. What's that? There's the passageway to freedom. You saw it. Can any of us hope to reach complete freedom without the knowledge of the Tosca? They say he needs only to stroke Great Emerald in order to find us and bring us back. Oh, now, pal, don't let this thing get you. The Great Stone has no control over my actions. Then you don't believe that the Emerald has such strange powers? No, but the Tosca does, and so do his people. It's a superstition that has great effect upon everyone here, and will have until the spell is broken. And as soon as we get possession of the Great Stone, we can expose the hoax. Yes, that's the only way. Once the Emerald is taken from the Tosca, the spell will be broken. Larina will help us. She wants to get out of here as much as we do. If we can reach her, that's the rub. But the passageway leads right to her chamber. Larina's in custody. Has been ever since she helped you escape. How do you know this? Lepo, her faithful servant, brought the information to me, knowing of your love for each other. Larina in custody because of me. Why, if I could only lay my hands on the Tosca... If someone is coming... Who? Perhaps you do. Looks through the opening in the door. It's Lepo, my informer. Maybe he has news for us. What are you doing here, Lepo? I bribed the guards to let me pass, oh worthy one. What's up? Evil deeds are at this very moment being planned in the palace throne room. What sort of evil deeds? The Tosca is holding council with his nobles. He intends to place the bronzed one without weapons in the arena with Vita, the Black Panther. Why, you won't have a chance, Tarzan. Tell me, faithful one, when does he plan such an exhibition? Tomorrow, in the afternoon. Good. Then all is well. What do you mean, all is well? Your goose is cooked. I do not think so. But you heard what he said, the Black Panther. Where is Llorina, your queen confined? In the tower at the far end of the palace courtyard. But I must go now. Someone approaches. Yes, go. And tell your queen that by the time the next sun rises over Zeroka, she will be free. We will continue with Tarzan in just a moment. Imprisoned in the palace dungeon in the forbidden land of Zeroka, Tarzan, Lord of the Jungle, and two American adventurers, Stanley Ford and Bob Quinn, patiently await nightfall before attempting their desperate bid for freedom through an abandoned secret passageway. Up in the palace throne room, Gima, leader of the warrior women, approaches the Taska, who sits majestically upon a chair of gold, fondling a huge green emerald in his hands. Well, Gima, did you inform our illustrious guests of the fate that awaits the bronzed one? I did exalted one, but they seem not greatly concerned, particularly the one called Tarzan.   And what of Lorena, my unfortunate daughter? She lies brooding in the tower and will not speak. Even my lashes brought forth no sound. She is a stubborn one, but save your lashes for the prisoners in the dungeon. They will do more good there. As you wish, exalted one. Go now and tend your duty and mind you. It will mean your head if another prisoner escapes. Gima will see that no one escapes your hide-ness. One thing more. Yes, exalted one. Did you do as I bad you in Lorena's chamber? Yes, and do not fear. No one will enter that room. How much longer do we have to wait, Tarzan? It will not be safe to open the secret passageway until the guards are asleep. Just be patient, Mr. Ford. It will not be long. This dungeon is beginning to give me the whim-wams for sure. Aren't they asleep yet, Quinn? I don't know, but I don't hear anything. When they sleep, you will hear them snoring, loudly. You say a watchpot never boils. I guess he was dropping at the door won't help any. You'd both better get some rest. I will let you know when the time has come. What's your plan, Tarzan? First we will go through the passageway to Lorena's chamber. From there we can reach the corridor leading to the courtyard. Then we will proceed to the tower. The guards are asleep. We can start now. What a watch. They'd all be court-martialed where I come from. We must move quietly so that they will not awaken and now stay close together. I will open the entrance to the passageway. Well, clear, Ford. They're sleeping like babies. You'd think we'd drug them. Over here. I will let you both through the opening and then close it behind me. Well, if that doesn't wake them, nothing will. Pipe down. Come on. Okay. I'm through. Black is in here. It's only me.  Quickly. Follow the walls with your hands. Hope we don't meet anyone coming the other way.  I hope so. What are we stopping for? The passageway divides here. We take the one to the right. Now stay close to me. Where does the other passageway lead? Who cares? Stay on Tarzan's road. We're almost there. Lorena's quarters? Her chamber is just beyond this wall. You stay here while I try the opening. But wait. You're very still. What's that? It is Punda, the tiger. The tiger's in Lorena's bedroom. Yes. How do you account for that? The tasker probably placed him there to guard the queen's possessions. But why? That tasker doesn't need a reason. But what do we do now? I will enter the chamber alone. And tackle that beast that's suicide. With Punda standing in our path, we cannot hope to reach freedom. Yeah, I know, but... Stand back against the wall of the passageway. Do not move as I enter. It will attract Punda. Don't worry. Still now. I'm going to open the door. Come back! Tarzan's actually attacking that beast. With nothing more than a dagger in his hand. It's incredible.  Never. One along the... Must be dreaming. He actually lifted that cat over his head and threw it to the floor. It's not moving. Punda is dead. We can continue now. But are you all right? Punda was very clumsy. I have only a few scratches. Man, what a fight. Man over beast. I see now why you aren't too concerned over facing the Black Panther. Vita, the Panther is more of a handful than Punda. I would not welcome that meeting. Personally, I'll avoid both. Come, we must waste no time. The door to the corridor is over here. We shall see how securely it is locked. Bolted from the other side. We must try the balcony. This is good. Good. It must be 50 feet above the ground. There are heavy vines clinging to the side of the balcony. You mean we have to climb down that stuff? No, I will go alone. It's going to be mighty lonesome until you get back. I will not be long. Look! In the courtyard below. Lions. A whole pack of them.  You can't go down there Tarzan. They'll tear you to bits. You're right, but there's no need to cross the courtyard. No? It is dark and by swinging from the vines I can reach the opposite wall unseen. From there it will be a simple matter to reach the tower where Lorena is confined. I only hope you'll make it. Good luck to you, my friend. If I do not come back soon, return to the passageway and wait. He's been gone a long time. Too long. Suppose something's happened to him. I don't like the sound of those drums. That means anything. It's not natural at this time of night. But don't worry about Tarzan, he'll make it. Look! Out there beyond the wall. Natives gathering with torches. Yeah. Maybe it's the tribe getting together for the big sporting event in the arena tomorrow. We'd better be thinking about what we're going to do if Tarzan doesn't show up. When the guards wake up to find our cell empty, the lid will be off. I ain't forgotten about that minor detail. Maybe that's the reason for the drums and the natives. We'd better head for the secret passageway. And I do hope it's still secret. Wait! I think someone's coming. This is no time to form a welcoming committee.  It's Tarzan with Lorena. Oh, Stanley. Oh, Mr. Quinn. Lorena, my darling. The bronze one went through much danger to bring me here. Thanks, Tarzan. I knew you wouldn't fail us. You know, for a while, neither of us were so sure. We've been discovered when Mr. Waste no time in removing any trace of our whereabouts. Into the passageway, all of you. Come on, Lorena. My heart is overjoyed that you're safe. We're together, but I'm so frightened. Don't worry. Everything is going to be all right. Hey, what about the dead tiger? It's a certain giveaway. Move on into the passageway. I will toss the tiger to the lions in the courtyard. In the Hillary. Take my hand. Hold it tight. It's dark.  What about Tarzan? As soon as he gets rid of the tiger's body, he'll be along. Oh, my loved one. The thing of the danger I've brought to you and your friends. You're not to blame, darling. The danger's been pretty chummy with us ever since we arrived in this country. It was I who helped you escape. Now this. Your sacrifice is greater than any of ours. You're no longer queen. Or at best, you're a queen in exile. I've never wished to be queen. Nor have I ever felt that I belong here. But you're the Tosca's daughter. Well, it is said that the Tosca's my father, but I felt no devotion. It doesn't matter. Soon you'll be free, Lorina. Free to marry me. If you'll have me. You're very beautiful. Oh, dearest. Please, Stanley. What'll Mr. Quinn think? I don't know how he can even see in this dark. Don't mind me. I'm not ready yet. Shh. Tarzan must be coming. Tarzan moves silently. This is someone else, and not alone. Gema and her warrior women. Hurry. Back through the passageway. We can reach the point where it divides. Maybe we can lose. Remain where you are. It will be useless to run. You will not get far. Come on. She wins. It's no use, Quinn. She's got us. Yes. In this time, for good, unfortunate ones. Step into the chamber and no tricks. Gema's whip has the lash of a sword. I have felt the lash of your brutal whip. So you have, Mr. Ford. Perhaps you would care for more. Better do as she says. Let's not take any chances for Lorena's sake. What's more, I don't like the looks of the artillery or female murder battalions carrying. You are very wise. At least Tarzan got away. They'll turn the palace grounds upside down until they find you.  Oh, love you. And come with me. There is someone who is most anxious to meet you. So, Lorena, you have chosen your lot. You have betrayed your people and you have defied me the Tosca of Zoroka. Have you nothing to say? I have never been one of your people. I was forced to become queen, to be ordered about as the will moved you. You are right. I have cursed my lot with the Americans and I'm willing to accept my fate. Do you know what that fate may be? Even if it is to be death and the den of the lions, I do not care. There is still time to repent, my daughter. Don't do this because of us, Lorena. Save yourself. At least you may live.  That's a lie. If I thought we had a Chinaman's chance of getting on our way... You are very wise, Mr Ford and very courageous. But there is no escape for you this time. What have you done with Quinn? Have you taken him away? Yes, of course, your friend. We thought perhaps he might be able to tell us where the bronze one may be found. Gima has taken him away to question him. Who are you? Who was that? You here? Poor man. Perhaps he does not know, but Gima will keep trying. Quinn, who are you? Why don't you stroke that phony emerald in your hands? It's supposed to know everything. Unfortunately, only one thing. Only one man is beyond the power of the great emerald. You couldn't mean Tarzan. Doesn't that worry you a little at this moment, your exalted highness? Tarzan is free and maybe not far away. Please, please, darling, do not antagonize him. The bronzed man of the jungle will not get far, and when he is captured, he will be tossed into the pit of serpents. He will be the first to face such torture in 20 years. And who were the last to be faced with such torture, Lord and Lady Kingsley? How did you know? Then Lord and Lady Kingsley did come here, and you killed them. After the birth of Lorena, they became a nuisance. Lorena, that proves that you are Lord Kingsley's daughter. He's bluffed everyone, including yourself, into believing that you're his daughter. Oh, this is too horrible. My parents killed him in such a way. And now that you know, the same fate is in store for you. Oh, no. Wait.  The bronzed one. You do not move swiftly enough, Tosca. It will do no good to call your warriors. They will obey you no longer. I have the emerald. Your powers have lest you, Tosca. Your people are fooled no longer. You have been a wicked ruler, Tosca. The land of Zoroka will be better off without you. I thought you were dead. Come on, Ford, wring the raider. The natives took care of Gabon. What happened? Tarzan convinced them there was no power in the emerald. They were free. Oh, we're all free. Yes, my darling, we're all free. Thanks to Tarzan. The land of Zoroka will be a peaceful country now. Come. I will lead you to the coast. You know, the only piece I'm looking forward to is the peace and quiet of the good old USA. Tarzan, a transcribed creation of the famous Edgar Rice Burroughs, is produced by Walter White Jr., prepared for radio by David Chandler with original music by Albert Klassner. This is a Commodore production.