news radio 700 WLW the Ford Motor Company has filed a patent uh and that patent is on drones in specific drones that can actually help you jump start a battery if your car dies on the side of the road yeah uh drones that would help you if you were in some sort of need mechanically or automatically would come in and and help you at least in that aspect and i read this story and i thought well this is interesting who wouldn't wouldn't want to be rescued if if if you know someone won't stop to help you who wouldn't want a machine to come flying in from outer space or wherever to come down and help you jump start your car but the more i read about it the more i realized that a lot of this is just nonsense i mean okay a drone flies in and uh it examines i guess your battery or it looks at your car and then these these wires descend and they hook up to your battery they charge your battery and off you go well wait a minute hang on one second does that technology exist right now turns out well um not really is it practical uh well what do you mean well i mean if your car is dead on the side of the road wouldn't it be easier if you have AAA just call AAA or maybe hope that somebody comes by and maybe helps you jump start your car or my goodness if nothing else you just call a tow truck and the more i i read about it the more i realized that patents are filed all the time and largely just a block or key someone else from doing it sometime in the future and then i read a blog that was written by my next guest i've had john risby on the show many times they call him the patent professor in fact he has a patent on that uh particular title but he is uh an attorney an adjunct professor at the patent of patent law at nova southeastern law school in florida and he's authored uh several books on patents and whenever it comes to this kind of pride uh proprietary technology i want to have john on the show i'm glad he's with us now john how are you on this glorious day yeah i'm good always a pleasure to be here am i am i reading this correctly i mean i i don't sense that ford has this technology yet but just in case they come up with it uh they're covered is that where this is right now that you're you're 100 correct um and it's funny i mean a bit of history in the the 1800s the patent office required a working model to be submitted when you filed a patent application and uh clearly you know there's over 11 million patents now that requirement was was dropped a long time ago but patents don't have you don't have to have a working model uh and the patent office does not review applications for practicality and and or even if they work absent something ridiculous like if they defy the laws of of science or uh you know like a perpetual motion device something like that they they would look at but otherwise they take the patent at face value they're not looking at practical aspects um as a as a lawyer i can see they're not looking at liability either because this patent talks about carrying the charging block which is kind of like a battery through the air uh talk about liability if if you've ever lifted a car battery like that uh and you can imagine a drone flying uh with a car carrying a car battery out to you like if that thing falls or or you know goes through a windshield we're talking major major harm so possibly go wrong but in other words if i let's say i had this brilliant idea that i was going to develop a bottle that would would disperse soda from the bottom instead of the top of it and all i had to do was just hold it above my head and i thought it was the greatest idea i've ever had in my life are you telling me that all that i would be required to do to get a patent in this day and age is not produce said bottle but just let the people who issue patents know i had this brilliant idea and they would issue me a patent on it is that what's going on the there's there's three requirements for patentability utility uh it has to do what it purports to do a novelty it has to be new uh and non-obviousness it can't be obvious but there's no there's no requirement that it be practical or it's not anybody there's my bottle right there there's my bottle idea right there it it's uh it it certainly seems unique and new i've never heard of that now whether anybody would want to lift the bottle over their head and have the liquid come out the bottom you never know i mean that's why you know and there's examples like rollerblading i always think of the you know the patent attorney went up and went up an inventor comes in and says you know what i've got a way to skate where you not only can fall uh forwards and backwards but now you've got a balance so that you don't fall to the left and right and then and then go like eureka that you've got it there so it's it's tough to really tell where there's a commercial value for an idea but but you you hit the nail right on the head that a lot of times companies are are filing these patents really to stop uh competitors and to get like uh get a monopoly and create like a patent web uh in the industry and that that seems to be what what ford's doing to have a couple weeks ago i believe uh i was on your show as well with ford's patent on a self-repossessing car that's right and this is if you fall you fall behind on your your payment and there's no repo man coming to get your car so the car just drives itself off uh and returns itself to the to the bank or the the repo lot or wherever these cars go so uh you know that now that one got a lot of backlash clearly that's not popular uh no you don't watch your car like just taking off the driveway say i'll see you later sorry you didn't make a watch payment right but that's that you know they they in in that patent they talked about various steps that's like the last resort but before it does that one option is uh an unpleasant sound is emitted from the car radio this is the exact words from the the the patent document so you can't even listen to no one could listen to your show all of a sudden it'd be overtaken by some noise that that's annoying enough to make you go and hopefully make your car payment yeah even more annoying than me that could be a community service when i john i mean but you're right about let's say let's just say that uh that down the road five seven ten years down the road and and again it's very hard unless you're some sort of visionary or some sort of psychic to know exactly where technology is going but let's just say five seven ten years down the road that uh general motors decides it wants to do this this drone thing well wait a minute forward would say all the way back in 2023 we we we got a patent on this so general motors you're going to have to pay us so there's a monetary exchange that would happen if indeed that this thing actually becomes reality correct that a hundred percent and the way patents are written they're written in a really broad sense so that technology can evolve uh four has patents that talk about in fact the battery terminals being accessible from the outside without an owner even being there so this could be for example if your your battery is dead your car dies you may be able to just lock your car close the trunk close the hood and take off and these drones could come by uh and recharge your battery without you even being present that's a may i mean yeah i mean it's it's just the whole concept is is crazy we're chatting with john risby we're talking about well in this instance ford uh seeking a patent on drones coming in to jumpstart your car in case you're you're on the side of the road you know you know i've had a lot of conversations i just want to take it just just a little a little using the car analogy a different little off ramp here but uh this whole thing with chat gpt and in particular or any kind of ai it it it kind of murky murky's the water a little bit here i was i've been seeing a lot about ai and chat gpt and how things are generated and what in in in essence is uh creative property or or things that you have come up with how do how do we navigate that who's to say if something appears on chat gpt that it's not something that i've already come up with or perhaps even copyrighted as as a thought amusing or some sort of you know ravings of a lunatic why where are we going with all of this artificial intelligence in your opinion yeah well uh in my opinion it's making people dumber so the the art of replacing real intelligence i mean uh you know there's imagine today there's a lot of kids that if their rear cars rear view camera didn't work they couldn't back out of a parking space uh uh the the blind spots on cars you have the the safety devices that now alert you but if that malfunctions uh you know fewer and fewer people are looking out their windows in an actual mirror to make sure there is not a car next door so that's a concern that i have with ai from a legal standpoint uh the copyright office has held that uh a computer and it seems like so basic like they even have to have a holding on this but to be an author requires that you be human and a chat gpt a computer cannot own rights to a a copyright uh uh under there and this that there was actually supported by i don't know if you remember the the monkey selfie case from a few years ago oh yes a photographer's cell phone was stolen a monkey accidentally took a bunch of selfies and the photographer filed for a copyright claiming that because it was his phone that he should have rights to it the copyright office looked at and said well no the monkey is the person the person the the thing the animal that that took the pictures and you have to be a human to in order to be entitled to a copyright and that's what's going to that's a real obstacle to chat gpt because the the computer is the one that's actually generating the content now authors are claiming yeah but we're putting in the queries and the computer is no different than a than a tool like a paintbrush for a painter but uh but there's a lot of you know real painters they would disagree they're so well wait a minute you know yes we use the brush but it's a lot of the control on the brush the artistry is us it's different than when you use artificial intelligence and until your computer put in terms that say draw a frog with a horse head and then three minutes later it's got this beautiful drawing well who's the uh who's the author i mean the person that just simply said frog with a horse head is that going to give is he going to get rights to it uh the computer certainly the computer can't because uh it's a it's not it's not human right right imagine if that the whole painting of the sistine chapel went that way you know i just put it in my gp no but my point being is is that a lot of the stuff that's input into into the into chat gpt where's it coming from who is it that's doing that and do they not nest do they not have proprietary rights to whatever is in there in other words you could say give me um 10 chat give me 10 paragraphs on um donald trump give me 10 paragraphs on donald trump and it could fish it out from anywhere but where is it fishing it out from who's putting in the information for it to fish it out the information the person who generated that information to me would seem to be the person that is the is the proprietary owner of that right that intellectual property it would seem to me it would be that way could you make an argument that way in court right right and that and that has been made because let's you know after all chat gpt their source material is everything pretty much online have built access to billions of documents and uh and there's no credit given for their sources so uh yeah i mean there's there's still there are no court decisions determining that but that's that's certainly something that i believe is going to be litigated well your your uh your profession it seems like it's just it's morphing daily and daily for different things drones and chat gpt if you and i had this conversation 10 years ago i don't think either one of us would know what the hell we're talking about but here we are in 2023 and when it comes to things like that you're our guy john thank you so much for your time and stay well we need to hear your voice okay uh thank you all always a pleasure to be here


Okay, you're super charged and you're ready to start your new business. The question is then what on earth are you gonna focus on? You have many different options out there. You can focus on technology, you can focus on e-commerce, you can focus on digital, you can focus on food, you can focus on so many different things and it's a big problem a lot of people have and a lot of times we get caught up what we see on the media. We see Facebook, we see Uber, we see Airbnb, we see Slack, we see these big unicorn juggernauts killing it and crushing it online and we're like, man, I need to do that. However, I like to study significant statistical data, meaning I like to study companies that have a proven track record over the last 40 years and this is the same mythology that Warren Buffett, Charlie Munger, Bill Gates does and all the big wealth managers such as Ray Dalio, Carl Icahn. If you look at these companies that significantly have produced internal rates of return for the investors year after year, time after time, north of 25%, which is amazing. So, you know, if you're looking to start a new business, you got to tie in the aspect of there's there's what you want personally with it, which is your own motivation, which is your own passion, your own way of changing the world and then there is what the world will actually buy and a great way that you can cross over that is doing a Venn diagram where you're going to put your ambitions, your aspirations, what you want to do in one bubble or one circle. The second circle is you're going to put human psychology in there. So I love to look at Maslow's hierarchy. So the business is the light I like to focus on is shelter. People always need shelter, people need clothing, people need security, people need food, regardless of if it's 2016 right now, or if it's 2050, people always need those. So if you're looking at triangle Maslow hierarchy of needs, if your business hits the, you know, bottom foundation, yeah, it's a lower barrier to entry. However, if you stick long enough in it, if you have a proven product and if your marketing is better and your branding is better, that has a long term effect, long lasting returns on that business. And that's why if you look at Warren Buffett, you know, love him or hate him, there's a reason why he invested in Coca-Cola. It's the most powerful brand in the world. It's a drink. It's a, you know, it's a food technically. It's highly addictive, you know, high fructose corn syrup. It's a no brainer. I think it's a brilliant move on his end for returning his fiduciary responsibilities for Bertha Hatchaway to return his investor's money. Also, if you look at his other types of investment strategy, he invests in insurance. He bought Geico and I believe Geico owns more than 200 or 400 subsidiary insurance, insurance companies below Geico. We always need insurance, regardless of what's happening with technology, what's happening with geopolitics, people need to be covered, life insurance, car insurance, health insurance, body insurance, you know, celebrities have their butts, their boobs, private parts all insured, just if something happens because it is an asset, they make money off of that. So if you're looking at that Venn diagram once again, put your passions and what you want to change in one circle. The second circle is Mazel higher care needs to put that in and finally the third circle is the what if circle. So look at what's happening right now. And what if this this rule change in the government? What if I started selling my product in Singapore instead of United States? What if I sold my product in Europe? What if I changed the pricing on my product? What if I structured my product or service like this? These are the variables. The whole idea is with that Venn diagram.  It's great that you have ambitions to go out there and create amazing technologies, go out there and really transform the world. However, you know, let's be realistic over here. There's a reason why certain companies last a long time. I mentioned Coca-Cola. Let's talk about Costco. Let's talk about certain real estate companies. That's a real big behemoth right now. I think Coca-Cola is one of them. It's been around since 1890, I believe. So it's been a while. And, you know, even everything that I do going forward is focusing on the Maslow hierarchy of needs, food, shelter. For me personally, my big plan in the future, which will be cybersecurity.  For example, I believe last I checked, there is more than 10.5 million hacks per day online. 10.5 million hacks. Security is a big one. Security on your phone. Banking security. That's one big fan of blockchain coming up. Financial security. Safety security. You know, think about your kids in the future. That's a big concern. I want to have kids in the next two years. I'm trying to figure out what is the safest and smartest way to introduce technology in their lives. So look at your business, what you're doing right now and ask yourself, does it land in any of these Maslow hierarchy of needs? If it's some kind of skeer technology that does random things, I don't think so it's going to last that long. And at the end of the day, there's a couple of reasons why you're in business. First of all, you have a passion to transform the world. You have a knowledge.  Second of all, obviously you need a financial return.  You know, I'm sorry, these days you need funding. There's no, there's no, you know, create a business out of thin air. If you're talking about a real business and there are a few exceptions, obviously for every rule, there are a few exceptions. However, if you're looking to really start a big business, let's say, you know, 10 million plus, which isn't really that big, but still 10 million plus is great. You need funding. You need to pay, you know, payroll. You need employees. You need cash to burn. You need to figure out what's working. So for that, you need the mula, right?  They look at your product. They look at the global landscape. They look at your team. They look at historically speaking, we're there and are there currently companies and brands selling something similar to what you want to do. If the answer is no for the most part, 99.99% of the time, they will not invest in you. So do yourself a favor, look over what you're doing currently and ask yourself, does it land in the mazal hierarchy of needs? If the answer is no, maybe it's time for you to pivot, not cancel, but pivot. And pivoting is really smart when it comes to business and startups because that shows that you're evolving. That shows that you have a growth mindset. That shows that you're willing to take in new information, process this information, and then figure out the right course of action with that information. I love to hear your thoughts on what kind of problems you're having with your startups right now. Also, I'm actually curious as to what is your biggest hurdle with startups? Because a lot of people have different hurdles. Some people say fear, some people say lack of motivation. Others say money. At the end of the day, each of us have our own weaknesses and strengths.  Comment below this video. Anyways, I will see you guys later and have an amazing, amazing Sunday night. Adios.


I welcome members to the first meeting in 2018 of the Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee. Neil Findlay has joined the committee and I welcome him to his first meeting. David Torrance cannot be with us today and has submitted his apologies. Agenda item 1 is declaration of interest. In accordance with section 3 of the code of conduct, I invite Neil Findlay to declare any interest relevant to the remit of the committee. Just a general declaration, I am a member of two trade unions, EIS and United Union, and my wife works for the NHS. Agenda item 2, decision on taking business in private. It is proposed that we take items 6, 7 and 8 in private. Those items are the committee's work programme. Consideration of matters arising from the recent evidence session with the Ministry for Parliamentary Business on the work of the committee during the year 2016-17 and consideration of the committee's second quarterly report. Does the committee agree to take those items in private? Agenda item 3 is consideration of instruments subject to affirmative procedure. The Draft Police Act 1997 and the Protection of Vulnerable Groups Scotland Act 2007, Remedial Order 2018, are legal advisers who have not raised any points on the draft remedial order. Members will recall that the committee took evidence on the proposed draft remedial order in October last year and submitted a response in November to the Government's consultation on the draft order. In our response, we highlighted areas that we recommended the Government should explore further as part of its wider review of the higher level disclosure system. The statement that accompanies this instrument sets out the Government's response to our submission. The statement confirms that the Scottish ministers do not intend to make any changes to the proposed draft remedial order that was consulted on other than to change some minor points noted by the committee. Does the committee wish to welcome the consideration already given by the Government to the committee's submission, as discussed in the statement provided with the draft order, and to encourage the Government to explore further the various matters raised in that submission in its on-going wider review of the higher level disclosure regime? No points have been raised by legal advisers on the draft rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974, Exclusions and Exceptions Scotland amendment order 2018. The draft registers of Scotland digital registration etc regulations 2018 and the draft community empowerment Scotland Act 2015 supplementary and consequential provisions order 2018 is the committee content with these instruments. Agender item 4 is consideration of instruments subject to negative procedure. The national health service superannuation scheme Scotland miscellaneous amendments number 2 regulations 2017, SSI 2017 434. Regulation 7 provides that the national health service superannuation scheme 2008, section Scotland regulations 2013, SSI 2017 1 7 4 are amended in accordance with regulations 8 to 18. However, of those regulations, only regulations 9, 13, 16 and 18 have effect from 1 April 2015 in accordance with the remainder of regulation 1 to A. The Scottish Government proposes to correct regulation 1 to A in the next set of regulations which amend SSI 2013 1 7 4. Does the committee agree to draw the regulations to the attention of the Parliament on reporting ground I as the drafting of regulation 1 to A appears to be defective in providing that regulation 7 has effect from 1 April 2015 and it is not intended that regulation 7 should have this retrospective effect? Does the committee also agree to recommend that the error is corrected by amendment as soon as possible, given that the error concerns the date when provisions of the instrument have effect? Electricity works environmental impact assessment Scotland amendment regulations 2017 SSI 2017 451. The regulations were laid before the Parliament on 15 December and came into force on 18 December 2017. This does not respect the requirement that at least 28 days should elaps between the laying of an instrument that is subject to the negative procedure and the coming into force of that instrument. Accordingly, does the committee agree to draw the regulations to the attention of Parliament on reporting ground J as they fail to comply with the regulations of section 28 2 of the Interpretation and Legislative Reform Scotland Act 2010? Does the committee also agree to find the failure to comply with section 28 to be acceptable in the circumstances as outlined in the correspondence from the Government contained within our papers? The National Health Service pension scheme Scotland miscellaneous amendments number 2 regulations 2017 SSI 2017 433. No points have been raised by our advisers in relation to this instrument. However, the committee may wish to note that the Government has submitted a revised version of the statutory report required under section 22 2b of the Public Service Pensions Act 2013. That is to correct an error in the original report to make it clear that the revised employee contribution tables inserted into regulations 30 and 31 of the National Health Service pension scheme Scotland regulations 2015 by regulations 3 and 4 of the instrument come into force on 31 January this year and are applied to the 2018-19 scheme year. Does the committee note the laying of this revised statutory report? No points have been raised by our legal advisers on SSI 2017 435, 436, 450, 454, 455, 457 and 461. Is the committee content with these instruments? Gender item 5 is consideration of instruments not subject to any parliamentary procedure and no points have been raised by our legal advisers on SSI 2017 445, 456, 458, 459 and 460. Is the committee content with these instruments? Content. I will now move the committee into private session.


So we are here today at the Fairmont Royal York Hotel and we're about to interview Hugh McQueen and the interviewer as usual will be William McRae. So we're gonna start with the basic question. Could you please state your full name? Hugh James McQueen and could you please state your age? Yes, I'm 83 and Where were you born? I was born in Scotland. Whereabouts? Alawa, a small town between Glasgow and Edinburgh. And as a child, what did your parents do? My father initially was working in making spirits in a plant. However, he had trained in his youth as a hand riveter in the shipyards. Okay, and that industry had kind of fallen apart after World War One, okay? And so but the thing in terms of affecting me was in the opening of the war in 1939 when I was seven years old was my father's switch back to the shipbuilding and repair industry and he spent the whole of the war in that field. Okay, however because of the German bombing of the Clydebank shipyards I didn't live in the actual town that we didn't live in a town we'll do a little further away but he put us down to go to Canada to an uncle who was related to my wife. I'm sorry, related to my mother. Okay, and so we left in 1942 only. Okay, and so I finally got to Montreal and they treated us very nicely as refugees and everything went well. And my father finally came only in 1948 because the difficulty of getting out of England and all sorts of complexities which I'm not in detail. But anyway so I was in high school then by the time that he came back. Okay, and one of the I was at Darcy McGee High School, which is one of the Catholic high schools of the Montreal region. I was very active in the Cadet Corps going up to the rank of major. I mentioned that because in my next one of my next steps I ended up in the Reserve Army training as an officer. Okay. So, okay, I'll let you ask another question. That was good. That was good. So one of my next questions was going to be did you perhaps gain interest in that kind of metalwork metallurgy from your dad? Not precisely, okay in the riveting business he was an expert riveter. He's a hand riveter of two men striking with a hammer blows and the third man holding it on the other side of the ship hull, you know. His interest was he kept saying I should become a chemical engineer. Okay, and but he certainly was very definite that I should get finished university. Okay. Now of my generation of my relatives in Scotland, okay, and none of them went to university. Okay, so I'm just saying there's a quite a big big difference because of partly because of my father's attitudes. I mean, I think he always felt at a lack because he never went to high school. I mean he had to go in directly from grade school into the program of application so that was one of the strong factors. So in me going to university. Okay, so he wanted that was clear you had to go to university or you were highly encouraged to. That's right, and I didn't really have any pain in doing so. I mean in the high school, I had been one of the two or three top students, okay, however because of our strong Catholic backgrounds, I decided to go to Loyola High School, Loyola College, which was a Jesuit university at the time. Okay, and it was a pre-engineering program that I took there and it also included annual courses in philosophy and theology. Okay, and so I got a bachelor of science at that point with certain conditions put on to it, which made it valuable conditions, which made it possible for me to go into fourth year engineering at McGill. And so I did the last two years of engineering at McGill in metallurgy. Okay, and that proved quite satisfactory. So you had found your calling? Yes, I think of the different branches. I thought metallurgy was the one which I like would like the most and I haven't been that worked out very well. Yeah What was your first official job? What would you consider being your first official job in the field? Well, now that would have to take me beyond my doctorate if you want me to talk about that, but I thought you might want more of my Going to your, yeah. Okay. Oh, there's one thing I should just mention is that when I was at Lyola, I was in the COTC Canadian Officers Training Corps, okay, in the engineering Corps, okay, and so I spent three summers in that activity, okay? On the third summer where you were supposed to get experience, but you know no more courses kind of I ended up in Germany and with the Canadian Brigade that was going to help defend Europe from the Russians, okay? And so for example, one of the duties that I had when I arrived is I was sent out to draw up new plans to blow up all the bridges on a 50 mile wild wide domain, okay? And then after I drew my plans up, then I sat down with some of the More experienced officers and they got out the old plans and we compared my suggestions with the previous suggestions and I mean generally everything was in pretty good order, but you know those were all set up the explosives were in storage And we had visited these sites and we were ready to go up and blow up the bridge and blow up the bridges okay, so When I went to McGill, I had finished with the engineers I decided I didn't want to be really in engineering Army in the army. I found out that in my period in Germany there was more done in terms of bureaucracy than otherwise, but I Mean I wouldn't say that this was overly but just there was It was a necessary thing to keep up the morale of the men and things like that, okay? and so In my intermediate summer before graduation I worked for the titanium corporation In Tracy, Quebec, so that was a new fairly new plant, okay? and then at the end of my studies at McGill, I had met a professor from Notre Dame in the field of exchange of fraction and so I decided to go there For my graduate studies and I spent five years there It was a good situation for viewpoint that I had more money at the end that I had at the beginning kind of you know and My field of studies it was sintering that that's where you take powdered materials And compress them into a shake which is not Fully dense, you know you get around 80 85 percent density and then you heat them in a furnace below the melting point and gradually The vacancies depart of the whole party the holes depart Because the metal begins to pull itself together by means of self-diffusion Okay Okay, so I've gotten my degree so that was your thesis. That was my thesis, okay but when I Okay, I was looking around for jobs and I decided ultimately That I wasn't going to go to industry I should just mention that at that particular point in time, which was 1961 There was a great demand for for grad PhD and Metalurgists, okay, so there was no lack of job. So ever I decided to return to Montreal and took a job as an associate professor Associate no one lower the one lower rank than that Anyway, I had to call polytechnic. Okay, okay Okay, any questions at that point error No, they had a good mining department in there. I'm sorry. They had a good mining department as well didn't they? That didn't concern me whatsoever The metallurgy was a separate department and so I never interacted on mining The Person who was running it was Andre Hohn who had come from Alkan He had gotten his doctorate in the States some 20 years before and worked for the Alkan laboratories in that intervening time okay, and So he was quite keen to build up the department I was the second PhD person working in the department side in addition to him and There was two people Two French Canadians who were actually working on their doctorate there while they were actually teaching so they had had some experience in industry, but In general it was difficult at that point to get Candidate get professors who had a doctorate degree Now one of the advantages which I had perhaps in some ways it is that in my last two years at Notre Dame electron microscopy came in Okay, and I didn't do any research on the electron microscope, but I did kind of take one course in it Because it's quite complicated compared compared to optical microscopy quite different. Okay, and so That that it decided this was something that I wanted to do Okay, but we're still with some vagueness Okay, and when I went to polytechnic they they pulled together the cash and bought an electron microscope for me see So that worked out but worked out very well, but now I had to find projects okay, so at that point I Met John Jonas who had been who graduated from McGill two years before me and he had just come back from Britain having gotten a Doctorate in which he was manufacturing ball bearings. Okay And he was kind of sick and tired of all bearings and and he had an extrusion press So he started extruding aluminum Okay, now from searches in the literature It became kind of evident that people didn't know an awful lot about what was happening in the metal at the high temperatures okay, and My I should just mention that my analysis at that time were proven to be correct From the viewpoint of for the next 10 years. I kept looking for this And to some extent there was no Good work. I shouldn't say no good work. There was no thorough work done on the microstructures of hot works material Okay, particularly The hot work material There were too many variables first of all people rolled it industrially You know in various kinds of mills reversing mills continuous mills A mill which you went back and forth between two mills and obviously each one was reversing and so on so It was very confusing in terms of what was happening Okay, what was happening during the deformation What was happening between the passes of a multi-stage mill? What was happening at the end of rolling operation or in between The breakdown mill and the continuous mill all of these things caused great a complex possible complexity so people hadn't gotten answers easily Okay, and of course, it's if you're doing things in a in say a continuous mill The sheet flies off at very high speed. Okay, and perhaps you're going to be able to get cat to piece off the end Of the product okay me because the front end of the products is still moving. Okay, and of course you're trying to get the material before it undergoes Transformations and you mean transformations and of course at that point in time almost no one was trying to cool the run-out material I mean that there was no particular Advantage to them so like the high-strength low alloy steels work where it's critical and Transform the material in a special cooling region before you coil it. Okay, so that that was all unknown at the time Okay Okay, so Anyway, I and John Jonas Teamed up because he had an extrusion press and was extruding aluminum and he was doing optical microscopy but he didn't have an electron microscope and In fact electron microscopy had not yet been applied At the hard work. I was one of the first people who did apply it to that range okay, and There certainly was a number of pieces of evidence that tended to indicate There was some very interesting features because I had already mentioned that people did try to do this But there was always all sorts of problems and heating or cooling Okay, and one of the things that might say like at the end of the hot off the hot breakdown mill If one took a specimen out of steel at that point Then it was always recrystallized. I mean that's Because of the think Complications trying to get the specimen and so on Okay, and then of course in the continuous mill again, that was so difficult that it was very unclear In the case of aluminum alloys where people had more opportunity to do things They weren't working with such large projects temperature ranges were much narrower. There wasn't any phase transformations after the After the hot mill and all these other things They had mixed results. Okay, they had results that sometimes things were recrystallized as far as one could make out from the optical microscopy that must have been Static recrystallization just like you get in a kneeling. Okay But at other times the grains were still elongated and Andre Hohn had discovered a method of using A technique Whereby one could pick out some structure Okay, and so it would appear That there was some some structure in the material. This was an optical technique Okay, which only gave Sensible results over a quite narrow range say from around 350 At the 500 at one could get good optical micrographs at lower temperatures Everything kind of faded out because it was too small a scale and the etchings didn't work properly Okay, so John Jonas had been doing that with with his specimens But I was centered on the electron microscopy. Okay, and so I I Worked for five years of polytechnic and the last two years are mainly devoted to the development of hot work sub structures in aluminum Okay, and I can say that at the point of publication of our first papers John and I produced Approximately five joint papers Okay, and my contribution was the electron microscopy Okay, and so prior to that there was one paper in which a person had published one electron micrograph of a piece of hot work to aluminum Okay, and this is because They everybody was kind of restrained by what what they couldn't they happen to have and of all the hot working areas Or schools universities and so on none of them had an electron microscope directly. It's in their control, okay, so It's by around Nineteen it would have been say 1968 69 We had published more pictures on the hot working off aluminum Than than anyone else had One of the music Incidents is that the papers were published in international actions except the final paper Which was going to be published in the Canadian Journal of physics because there was a conference held In Canada to Consider a lekton my cosplay where this so this was in say 69 approximately So they had a lekton microscope at the government labs And our seat at NRC Okay, and so we went forward and Forwarder paper and that was the first time in which we had enough data To be able to draw up graphs of how the sub grain sizes vary with temperature and strain rate Okay, and so that was I mean prior to that we had a lot of micrographs that you were showing and you could see of course if they were getting Larger sub grains as the temperature increased or the strain rate decreased. Okay, and this could be confirmed to some extent by Work on creep. Okay, I should mention that at the point when I first started here There was data of sub grain formation in creep specimens of aluminum And this was possible using x-rays because the sub grains were approximately, you know Three or ten times larger than what we got on hot working because there are low strain rates. Okay, and so But you couldn't use x-rays at the high-strain rate material because the sub grains were too small So you had all these Confusing factors entered in now the amusing thing was that the editor from NRC who was a very Important electron microscopist by this time he decided not to not to accept our paper for publication So that started a battle By this time I transferred to energy mines and resources for a few years. They had very good equipment there and The head man there who was also quite a prominent metallurgist I went to see him and we discussed my results And so we went to the editor of the game journal physics and complaint and we had a meeting with the editor of the proceedings Editor of the journal. I mean that it was going to be a special edition of the journal for about 4300 pages. Okay, so He made the decision. Yes that our work was valid and it was going to be published. So Why did they want to in the first place? Why did they why did they refuse in the first place? Well, this this guy who was The main organizer of the conference and who was also a very precise electron microscopist Okay, and he was very expert in doing electron microscopy at room temperature and down to liquid helium temperatures Didn't like some of the approximations that we had to make Because of the fact that we had to try to capture our specimens and quench them and do some other things and he didn't think that Our quenching was fast enough or you know any other things which you could bitch about But in the long run, I mean we obviously didn't improve these techniques over time. Okay Okay So any questions on that period? No, no, that's good. So then you said you made it to After after a pretty technique where did you go? Oh, well, I went to energy mines and resources to the metal physics section Okay, and I actually continued doing hot working there And the big thing that I was working on there. It was trying to do hot working of copper Okay, because it was expected that copper would undergo Another change and that would be to recrystallize at some point either during the deformation or after the deformation Okay, and so I set out in one group of experiments on the rolling mill and The problem that I had finally with that was that the rolling rate was too high and the copper did not recrystallize in the rolling mill, okay, but it didn't recrystallize very rapidly Okay, right after it came out of the mill and so we read the specimens were about that long and only a couple of inches wide and and you know one centimeter thick to begin with and they were dropped immediately into a salt bath Some zero quench tank and so the last half inch of the specimen Had not recrystallized. Pardon me. It was cool not statically recrystallized. Okay, I mean because Obviously if you've deformed the material when it comes out of the hot working mill, it's got a lot of dislocations in it And therefore it will statically recrystallize, okay So anyway, I then went to a torsion machine a very old torsion machine which existed in energy mines and resources and Again, we tended to get we got into the problem that we couldn't get the thing quenched fast enough Okay, not now in the torsion machine You have a thing in the machine and we couldn't get it out of this machine You can get specimen out because of the way the machine was built. Okay And so the problem is how do we quench it? Okay, and so I had built the thing with two buttons You press the stop button and then you press the quench button. Okay, and that difference in intensity of time Which was only Seconds, okay, it was always too slow. Okay, and suddenly I got the right idea. Well, the idea is I'm going to press the quench button first Okay, and this means that the specimen to some extent was a break on the machine So you punched the question but Pressed the quench button this specimen cooled down and got harder and then you start you didn't delay But just because of the way the machine was a very old machine built in this in the second world war So then you hit the second button in the slot completely. Okay, but in this way we were able to quench in the dynamically Re-crystallized some structure and and grains, okay And so I was one of the first people to be able to publish electron microscopy Of the complete range of temperatures of dynamic a crystallization in copper Now this had to some extent confirmed The works of the people at Sheffield Who had been doing torsion tests and had been quenching but they didn't have an electron microscope yet Which could study the inside of the grains they could see the grains were else still elongated Okay, so Therefore I did quite well on that that score as well Okay Okay, so that brings me up until 1968 Okay, now. I really was always interested in getting into the teaching field. Yes, I was gonna ask you Why did you choose? There were certain factors but one of the things was energy mines and resources did have a good microscope They had also some very good backup people and so on and they also had these machines Which I wasn't able to to get a hold off Anywhere else, okay the rolling machine at McGill Wasn't wasn't really fast enough and wasn't good enough to go on beyond the aluminum And so I mean I also did a copper and stainless steels and brass In that big rolling now, but I couldn't quench things fast enough So then I did the copper in torsion. Okay, so I decided to go back. I wanted to go back to university and the place that came open was Sir George Williams University, which is now Concordia okay, and They had had a chemistry professor teaching material science They had graduated their first class in 68 But they had decided that they had to open up and get more professors now. Okay, so They hired I think four professors who all had PhDs Same year as I was hired into me can't you're on mechanical? Okay, and Whereas off the people who were there before us it was but clear for professors who had been working for five years to get The first class out and I don't think any of them had had a doctor. Maybe one had a doctorate. Okay Because in the old days like when I was going to McGill Only about half the staff had had doctorates. I mean, it just wasn't so common in those days. Yeah, it's a lot more common now It's absolutely necessary. Yeah, it's required in most schools Yes, okay, so anyways things proceeded at Concordia And we were quite dynamic and just to look at the research areas. Okay after about three years It was becoming evident that we had two Good research programs going by that time neither of which was mine because the other groups were more mechanical Obviously mechanical And they were able to work together. I was the only metallurgist in the whole University Okay, and so I continued To work with Jonas, okay on and off to some extent But anyway, Jonas and I made plans that we had to get a torsion machine Okay, and so I traveled the world Looking for torsion machines and there was one at Sheffield Which was a mechanical totally mechanical machine. There was one at Ursa They were the first equal to really do good torsion test But again, they were a mechanical machine and had only experience on steels Okay, which caused them certain problems and so on so they mean like it Had not been able and it didn't have an electron microscope And so they weren't able to confirm what was happening in the steels, okay But I finally ended up in Australia at Brookent Hill Steel Company Okay, and was able to do a half sabbatical there And they had a very good torsion machine the most recently built mechanical torsion machine What the head of the laboratory had been a professor at Sheffield, okay? He and his buddy at Sheffield his buddy Mike Sellers stayed on Sheffield and became quite prominent and hot-working I mean But a friend who went out to Became head of the laboratory and so he set up a good hot-working section and so he went there for sabbatical and so I Found out that In inconsistencies of problems of trying to use a fully mechanical machine Okay, and so when we went forward at McGill, which we started the very next When I got back to Concordia Was to go with the hydraulic machines, so this is one of these two things It has several valves to several valves on your rotor control thing and so When you press it to reverse directions or to stop I mean you not only stop the flow in one of them, but you put flow into the other one in the opposite direction so stops Okay, and so that seemed to be the only answer and so By this point John and I had reached a concordat That and an agreement with the people in my department that I would do my research at McGill Okay, and and that I could Go in with John Donis to get equipment from it and our seer and sir later Was Jonas at this time where did he work? Oh, he oh Jonas had always been at McGill He okay, even when you were at buddy technique and that's that's right. Yes I mean I came back to Polytechnic and I said and shortly about a year after I think Jonas came back to McGill from Okay, I from his ball bearing work. Okay, and he had already started the work on the hot rolling of the aluminum Okay, but as I said he was only able to do optical microscopy and so I took Did the rest with electron microscopy now So that work approximately finished at the time the graduate student graduated to left and John actually started working with Atomic Energy Commission ACL and went there every summer for for a few years and They'd elect up they had and we're doing a lot of work on zirconium And allies of that nature. Okay, and so he worked with them and So on okay, but anyway, he would come but he only went there for the summers Okay, so we decided that we really had to get a hot Tarjan machine. They didn't have a hot Tarjan machine at ACL Okay, and so we went with this hydraulic machine My graduate student I happened to have managed to get a graduate student from Pratt & Whitney Who had been a very excellent student in Hungary and he had just escaped from Hungary and He hadn't been able to finish his graduate studies But he had to take a job to make more money, but anyway, he suffered part-time with me And he designed the Tarjan machine in detail of the hydraulic Tarjan machine Okay, so basically you replace the motor of an art. We use the lathe bed. Okay, an ordinary The like pardon me the hydraulic motor at the end. We had the usual thing which you know, you move back and forward Okay and so basically What to use use a tubular furnace, which is about that diameter your specimens Were about that diameter with a smaller gauge section Okay, and they were designed so that the end which went in To the movable part was screwed in Okay, so it was very firmly head held and the other end had a baited attachment meaning it was it was a slot There was a slot in the holder and the specimen Holding thing was had a flat in it and therefore that just slid in Okay, and so the ideal it was That we would do tests Inside the silica tube where we could watch the specimen and so on and then when the test finished We had to flip on the handle of this device at the end and the specimen came rolling out and once it got outside the tube we sprayed water on it and so we should get that done pretty quickly and I mean we could do a Copper and we could do Steals and we could quench them quickly enough to be able to Freezing the substructures Okay, and so Johnson I collaborated on this for I mean on testing for about 10 or 15 years after that and so All our grants for equipment were joint grants He was the leading author and they went you know they went to NSERC and so we gradually Built up a number of things He decided ultimately to build a compression machine And you couldn't buy a compression machine either the proper kind and so that Let to buy an ordinary compression machine and change it all in order to do that so his students did that project and so Another thing which aided us a great deal is the Quebec government gates are giving out research grants, okay, and one of the features was it had to be team grants Okay, so you had to have several researchers now in my universe in Concordia I'll use the Concordia neighbors too hard for me to go back and from there. Anyway in Concordia We had these two teams and they immediately went into this mode, okay, and they did very well, okay Whereas in many of the older universities like McGill for example Many cases people had worked very long periods independently and so they didn't actually Get into the team from work very well But Jonas and I have already created a team and so bang we went to the Quebec government on the very first offering And we managed to get a good grant from them Okay, and so that helped helped us to build up the situation At McGill we also got money to get an electron microscope there and That went on use for about what ten years So things went quite well At McGill collaboration John was doing a lot of work on zirconium other things for atomic energy I was concentrating on Aluminum okay, he's and we both started doing some steel work Okay, and he got very interested in the steel work and I kind of continued more on aluminum allies of all different kinds Okay, and so after about 10 or 15 years we started kind of splitting apart And so Ultimately, I can't remember today's all these things But he finally became one of the researchers who was picked as being essential for the steel industry Okay, so this would have been you know in the 80s. I believe Okay, and so he started getting large research grants from NSERC and the steel industry, okay And meanwhile, I was getting my grants. I built them up to some extent from NRC or answered by that time But in general I started taking more sabbaticals. Okay, and so One of the things that intervened was in 1972 was the energy crisis. Okay, I'm giving a paper on that here just now Okay, this was a crisis where OPEC decided to double its price Okay, and they I mean and they at this point the United States didn't have sufficient resources To stop them. I mean and in terms of oil resources neither did Canada. Okay. Okay, so that was very effective for them Okay, and now because of this I got into the field of of social aspects of engineering Okay, and a lot of the information I got was was from the science council of Canada Okay, which had been in existence For half a dozen years by that time. Okay, and they had been looking into all sorts of things All sorts of problems. One of them I'll say is air pollution Okay, now that was the period of The Tudor government not there was a guy before that His name is case-meat moments. He was a guy who had been I mentioned so you can check on it And he was a guy who had been a great Canadian Person on international Pearson Pearson. Yes. Okay, so Pearson came in Okay then he retired and Government took over now anyway They had the attitude of course that science was supposed to help the government. I mean Science would be a thing which was not just posted But I mean they would help the government and the government would prosper if they could use the science Okay, and so one of the big things that was done was a pollution studies And one of the most important ones was acid rain now the results of that was not of course that the government Hid under the carpet that there was acid rain. Okay, they just said well, we've got to solve the problem Okay, and so they set up something like a hundred measurement stations across Canada Okay, and so the found out what the problem was and where the sources were and they were quite willing to go after The people in Canada, but more than half the pollution was coming from the United States Okay, so anyway, I got involved in this I also got involved in running a program on social aspects of engineering in which all the graduate and all the graduating engineers had to take two courses in a variety of things related to the social consequences of engineering Okay, and So anyway that program ran up until 98 when I retired I mentioned that I decided to take a sabbatical where I went to University In Manchester, okay, and they had a program kind of in social aspects of science Okay, and so I applied for a fellowship from the Canadian Council for the Social studies, okay, and they refused to give me one So it turns out that the man who was the head of the Canadian Of the Ministry in charge of science was was the was a politician from my from my hometown like it was a Montreal Westmont Westmont NDG, okay, and so I went to him. Okay, and I said well listen, you know Looking at the data NRC does not give You know money for sabbatical You know for this area And and this area actually falls under the Canadian Council, you know for social studies, okay now You know you usually apply in September October and to give you the answer by January But I wanted to go in sabbatical in June. Okay, so I went and saw a member of Parliament In law and behold two months later. I get a fellowship from Canada Council Which I which I used and that worked out very well And so that got me into a lot of other things and I'm giving a paper on that here Okay, because I got involved in all the things that were happening was expected this energy crisis And I also got on to the board of the Order of Engineers of Quebec again got involved in Quebec energy strategy and And pollution problems and things of that nature, okay But the big difference was in the whole atmosphere was it was it the Trudeau government looked on scientists as something that were valuable Okay, and used what they found and figured out that what they found was good for the country Okay And it proved that way Okay, and so subsequent to that Things tended to roll down. I mean, you know That our great Irish tenor who became the next Prime Minister Forget his name at the moment He you know, he kind of moved down to a to a more Reserve behavior and shut down some of the things that have been going on But I mean things went along but obviously over the years As things went down and down and the liberal is already Mulvaney was the guy who we can't complain about Okay, but when the liberals came back on again They kind of maintained things but I mean at the end of their period Where global warming was a problem they did that okay, and ultimately we ended up getting the Harper group whose attitude was that We're going to use science only If it agrees with her political position, okay And so like they've been muzzling scientists and I mean this was so drastically different from the situation Under Trudeau, okay, and even under Mulvaney. I mean, there was no thought of any of these things Okay, so anyway one of the problems then that Went on is that the equipment you need for steel research and for aluminum research and the microscope Techniques and so on or somewhat different. Okay, and so Don went forward on working on the steels And what I then did is I decided to follow up things internationally. Okay, okay And so I mean I took my sabbaticals generally six months at a time And that way you get one every every three years, you know And the school doesn't mind because what to do is to move your courses. Yeah, just don't you turn that you're there, okay? So anyway, I was very fortunate to go to places like Hamburg University in Hamburg to the University in Trondheim. Now that was really the best situation they have concentrated all of their Work on aluminum research for the whole country, you know, they're very powerful and producing aluminum It's all concentrated in Trondheim at the time. Okay, and so I Went there and I had some ideas Which I needed to pursue and they pursued these ideas and we got a very major study carried out On aluminum which they hadn't been they had been looking quite at that area And so that set me off on a good dozen or more two dozen papers as you extended this thing. Okay, and then a Few years later. I ended up Being nominated as a humble fellow for Germany Okay, and this was in conjunction with the University of Erlangen Nuremberg, okay, Nuremberg was the headquarters of the University, but all the science faculties were at a small town called Erlangen So that's why it's named and Erlangen is the most important campus now. But anyway, I went there And again, I was very fortunate that there was a guy who was deeply involved in this case in creep Okay, and what we decided to do was that we were going to Merge the gap between hot working and it was about a difference of 10 to the 3 per second between the regular work that people were doing Okay, and he had the equipment that he could jack up his speeds in creep and I could take The hot torsion test down by one decade Okay And so we enlisted The German government who gave us an extra grant okay to do the research I had the grant from already from You know humble foundation, okay, and I could spread that it was a whole year's grant But I could spread it over two halves of sabbaticals Okay, and then we went to The aluminum company and Switzerland, okay All you Swiss okay, and because I knew the guy there He was very interested my research and so we got him to to to get a certain grade of aluminum nothing particular But a good quality commercial aluminum and to make us Six alloys from that one thing Okay, and to make them always in the same methods so that we didn't get any more impurity So the impurity levels in the aluminum and all these allies were the same Okay, and so we then spent about a decade doing all the hot torsion tests at McGill because his machine was still there And doing all of the keep studies in Germany, okay and Then we were different people working on the electron microscopy by this time the electron microscope We don't fall in the part And so I had an Italian who had come to me as a post grad post-doctoral fellow And he went back to Italy and got his own electron microscope and see was doing a lot of electron microscopy for us And some was done in Germany just that we didn't have enough personnel there, but the people in Germany also had a a Scanty electron microscope with which you use back reflection and so those were very powerful. Okay, and then to hurry things up Or Gordana Avramovic singhara decided had spent a sabbatical with me But then she decided to leave the Balkans when they went under civil war. Okay, and so she ended up with me And so we got into aluminum lithium alloys, okay, which Alcann was pushing at that point because everyone was doing that and The Air Force Base right Patterson Air Force Base saw our results. They thought it was very good. They offered us money Large sum of money, but I still didn't have an electron microscope and you didn't you'll have a good one So anyway, we teamed up with the U of T at that point, okay And so Gordana moved to the U of T And using the facilities here, I mean the city, okay, and she remained here and also spent some time at McMaster but ultimately University here got an OAM machine orientation imaging microscopy, which was another advance and didn't have one at McGill at that time either and she was became quite two was being quite expert on that and so We spent a decade working on aluminum lithium alloys and and then doing other work using the OIN combined with with optical microscopy and so I'm sorry with regular transmission microscopy Okay, and so there is a story that brings us to the end I kind of speeded things up if you need more information of the stuff at the end I can provide One for y'all Can I do one last question? Yes, okay Because you had you spent a lot of your career teaching as well. Yes So in the teaching perspective, are there any standout classes or specific courses that that you Then I guess are your favorite or you demo most rewarding. Yes, okay There were three things and there were two groups of courses, which I got very involved in I mentioned the undergraduate one and I had four courses which covered the whole field of metallurgy And that was part of our manufacturing option Okay, and those four courses continued until the time Just as they were in fact the four courses continue until now Okay, but what they have now gotten some different people and more They basically got I think for researchers in materials now, which covers those courses Okay Now the other thing was that I decided I would like to get a graduate program going Okay, so this would be 19 early 70s Okay, and the thing was at McGill and a whole polytechnic They only offered graduate programs during the day whereas Sir George was renowned as a Knight University So we opened an evening program Okay And this cashed in tremendously on ASM. Okay, because The ASM chapters were very strong in those periods Okay So there was a lot of technicians who also was in them and so we ended up with this Graduate program in the evening. First of all, just a master's program And we would have about a half a dozen people from ASM And we then have a number of other people were coming through our own program and would fit into this And so I taught three courses which were all related to the sub some structures Okay And then the other thing which I did was I knew by this time all the people who were very competent in other things Like casting and welding from energy mines and resources. So those guys came down and gave us each a course in graduate studies. Okay, so We had a well-running master's degree Which could beat out the other two universities. Okay, and then we finally went forward with a doctoral pro well, we had a doctoral program and I only had three or four students who actually went through it Okay, because you know, we weren't in a position to have a lot of different things like McGill had, you know And so by this time McGill was picking up so this would be In the early 80s and so on Okay, and so last the story I tell you about is Norman Ryan or I came he was a welder from Australia He came to start welding in the leading company in Montreal And after about five years He was the head welder I mean and he was the manager of the welding section and he'd gotten married to a French Canadian girl and They had two children And so he wasn't going to go back to Australia. Okay, and so he decided That he would take his first degree night in Concordia, you know, he did his a master's degree in education American University just south of the border And so then he he quit the welding company and went to teach at a high school Okay, at that point he decided he wanted to get a PhD in metallurgy He came to CV did that part time. Okay, it took him around eight years or nine years to get his PhD Okay, and so after he got his PhD, then we hired him as a part-time teacher Okay, and so he thought one or two of the courses which I had been teaching for a short period of time Okay, and ultimately we did the stainless steel work And so we've got something like 20 papers on hot working of stainless steels as joint papers So we pushed forward in all these different areas. He lives In Toronto now because his sons who are you know semi-French Canadian decided that Toronto was better than Montreal So he ended up in Toronto And I'll see him for the banquet tomorrow okay, so all in all we we've managed to Manipulate things and keep things going going along Although we never had a metallurgy department at Concordia. So maybe I'll stop at that point. Yeah, for sure Well, thank you. I know you I don't want to hold you back. So yes, Dr. McQueen. Thank you very much. Okay