Everybody forced here ripping in 2022. I'm at football hobby six bucks full case number 22 picker team style ate a lot with the Jags Andrew L Raiders Andrew a bills chance the Packers Daniel I Titans Edward P Ravens Colts Gregory S. Bucks Harper Chargers Hugh with the Steelers Jeremy H. Lyons Jesse S. Eagles John R. Cardinals Jonathan B. Browns Jonathan B. Also same person also has the Rams Carrie M. Vikings Christof Niners Manuel Texans Max Giants Michael B. Patriots Miguel Cowboys Miles H. Dolphins Nicholas T. Saints Patrick Z. Chiefs Patrick T. Jets Robert E. Seahawks Roger P. Broncos Spencer with the Falcons Tom B. Panthers and Bears Tony H. Washington Wayne E with the Bengals. Good luck everybody. Let's get started Damn right I Could yell I could say very Expletive things about games operating what I will not Plus you I can but I won't It'll be good for nobody but I can Never have hopefully never will I don't know jake you've seen we ready. I might All right, y'all. Good luck. We got Packers AJ Dylan base 50 of 99 Standard jumbo patch J. K. Dobbins Ravens to 49. I should finish The other is L the first Rookie jumbo Jersey clearly immaculate John meets you the third Texans Patch card Chargers Austin Eckler. That's numbered to 30 5 of 30 Trisha number patch card Player war and he got prime patch Auto Andre Johnson to 49 sections. That's sweet Who's a beast? Texans very nice card there Player war and patch auto Andre Johnson and a Malik Willis prime patch rookie auto to 99 for the for the Titans There we go Titans very nice Malik He took it to Coral and Sutton that day He had a massive size advantage to be fair That is although Coral and Sonny got in those things he's like 511 he would get in those tussles all times like 510 511 Yeah, Coral and Finnegan was always getting those tussles To be fair, I mean if I guess if you're a smaller corner you kind of have to You kind of have to jostle around a bit especially when he's not He was never like the best corner, you know, yeah Got DK 21 to 99 for the Seahawks Slipping for him over Pac-Man Jones Ricky clearly immaculate jersey Lions Jamesy Williams to 99 Took a nap bad idea.  You missed out some Matt Ryan's We got a towel sideline towel six to 15 Malik Willis Titans Titans having a good break A towel prime patch auto Titans again to 99 this time. It's Chris Johnson That's a game war in Chris Johnson. That's crazy. That's sweet three color game war in jumbo patch Titans are killing it right now It's Daniel. I Got a Brett far by black patch auto to 15 for the Packers See ya. See ya and prime patch rookie auto to 99 is Kyle Hamilton Ravens four colors We're gonna attack instead of playing cod You got till tomorrow the end of tomorrow, right Tows are not used That would be a little weird or again cool Uh-oh six point lead now. No, what are you doing? It's a 99 Alvin Kamara Saints Eagles rookie jumbo glove maybe Yeah glove brand logo adidas patch Carson strong Eagles six to 15 the armor auto Emily swallow dual patch Texans Andre Johnson Brandon cooks to 99. That is a mr. Brandon cooks Number to 99 number to 99 Player worn on both Jumbo patch Packers Aaron Jones four of six number patch there Eye black auto Jason Taylor dolphins number to 49 and rookie dual patch auto for the Cowboys Jalen Tolbert number to 99 Jordan pool is not him.   Brandon cooks number to 49, you know, it's after 12. Let's loopy hour Yeah, that is true AFC south like all the AFC southeans have done well here. It seems like I black rookie patch auto christian watson to 49 Packers Let's get this one in the mag for the Packers that's sweet And a trayvon walker for the Jags rookie dual patch on it to 99 Like jake bailey.  You're allowed to be like, hey, you're like, oh, hey, guess what you're fine I don't have the authority to do that. First of all You're fine. I don't have the authority to do that I'm sure I could be like, hey Donnie was yelling bad things and he punched me and all other stuff and like if it was true then Do a liar liar I have definitely typed in things while holding cards in my hand at the same time. Yeah Got my home number to 99 for the chiefs Can't wait for the day where I can just put like some sort of thing like on my temple And I just I think about it and it gets typed in We're probably not too far away We're not too far. That'd be great though. I get a random done in no time I'll have like another a split screen where the next random is going on while I'm finishing the other break The standard jersey card cold and sudden broncos to 49 I look at the box of cards and I just open it with my mind like professor ax over here He's using a book powers doesn't he Got jersey card to 49 Mike Vic Falcons rookie helmet flag sticker one-of-one breeze hall Sick card jets I believe that's patrick t Yeah, patrick t sick card rookie helmet flag sticker Look at that one magnet, of course numbers auto to 92 giants michael strayhan And like I said a fc south be hitting here rpa alec pier 17 and 99 colts. I already I already feel old when I go out I walk around I see high scores. I'm like They're literally like half my age I'm like, oh my god whippersnappers or all these kids doing at starbucks where your parents at Making the line too long holding up the line Or in your pink drinks and your frappuccinos All right bears drawn on mooney to 99. That's a nice looking card right there Got a hall of fame signatures rani lots of 49 for the Niners In the card behind it's pretty nice, too. That is nice Oh Gold swoosh Niners Eli Mitchell to 10. Love the golden black Logos that looks like it's from like a hat maybe Probably I guess it could be one of those like alternates that they wear, but I don't I don't know if I've seen those before very nice either way very nice, uh swoosh. They're gold swoosh gold over black Texans auto davis mills to 49.  We'll get this one in the mag for your lines. Give me one sec.  It's very strange Here who is the plankton's robot or whatever? Oh, um, all right. We got swoosh. Eli Mitchell Mike vick jersey corkland Sutton my homes Keenan allen erin jones Andre johnson and brandon cooks dual jersey carcass strong adidas glove patch Malik willis towel sidelines howl there jameson williams jersey austin eckler john matchy the third and a jk dobbins Ah, karen. Thank you. Well, no there it is. Yeah, that sounds right Gatos of john matchy the third davis mills ronnie lot michael strayhan alec pierce Trayvon walker brandon cooks jaylon tulbert jason taylor Got a kyle hamilton brett farve Chris johnson that was a game use chris johnson patch auto and then andray johnson dual patch rookie auto lion jamesy williams to 99 prime patch rpa to 99 malik willis titans rookie eye black patch auto to 99 christian watson packers And rookie helmets flag sticker one-of-one breeze, huh? That'll do it. Thanks again everybody on to six series star


Get that skinny bold egg over here to talk to Corbin Talk about your mom.  He eats this Corbin.  They're never gonna never gonna stop and no we didn't plan that one We just do that and vacation quarter When did the mom thing begin? Oh when she was pregnant with you I Gotta say hydrated, you know today we're reacting to a trait It's a Melodian trade Okay, new old new new and old together. That's crazy mom. No, it's a Bangalore days Bangalore days. Yes. Okay, and I believe it does have what's his face in it? Oh, well good I'm glad to know that for hot for soon. Oh Yeah, I believe he is in this okay, but this is this one We've been recommended a lot like when people say the next Malolian film you should watch this one's I'm sure I've seen the request and for those of you who don't know Bless your little hearts for sending me things you want me to watch I never watch them guys because because he's dyslexic. They're gonna show up here someday. So thank you, but here we go I know what it's about. So we will find out here. We go. Oh, they have compology nights and Bangalore days They have who's they? Corolla evenings. Who's they? like Melodian industry. Yeah, I know Bangalore days. Yeah, kumbala G nice. Do you think I forgot? No, I'm saying these there. This is a trilogy Wait, what?  He should do comedy.  Yeah Okay, so yeah, I'm gonna put a band over there.  No more Bangalore. No, I'm working It's a coach. Yeah, Bangalore. You know, I love it. Yes, I know Yeah, I'm gonna be a professional. My name is the Rishabh. Oh I'll be back. Ok. That boy is not good. Don't get involved with him. If he is like that, we won't be able to tell him about us. Let's ask Ajju. I'll give him a rich life. He won't be able to do anything. Then I'll be your wife. What will you do? What will you do? Malayalam, Tamil. How will you be a girl? Study hard. You can come to me. You can come to me. You can come to me. Ok. I'm going to be a good person in 4 years. You can tell me if you have any bad habits like this. There is no harm in being a member of my family. We were three brothers. Your country is not the same as it is shown in the movie. We are not even a couple. In some movie, someone says that... Okay. It was just nothing. Yeah. They don't know like... You think this is... And once is what I'm assuming, it looked like a almost... It almost looked like a coming of age like a almost like a not a coming of age necessarily, but like a What's that one with Amir Khan and Saif that we watch?  Oh, yeah, kind of like a free buddies a buddy right film finding themselves, right? But they've already yes, but I almost know that's not what it's going to be fully Yeah, I can't fully tell Because of what we've been told that like they just don't tell you what's gonna go on in the film Yeah, my if we went off of a biology nice would happen another thing. That's not how the film ended up No in the slightest. No, and it's amazing if you haven't seen it go see it Yeah, this one this one for me was just kind of like, okay. Yeah, I don't know. Yes You but I've heard rave reviews about it. So I'm assuming that It will be very good Three cousins set out to fulfill their bangler. Yeah, so like it seemed like that they'll shut the high people going on Kind of finding them finding friendship and right what the meaning of life is Do any of the other people from come by the genius in there does for hot seems to have a Smaller role based on the trailer Like I wonder how all the role how often does he take the supporting roles as opposed to the They'll be in the lead star which happened until recently to like Gary Oldman One of the greatest character actors of all time. He was normally never the lead He was either the villain or a Supporting yeah, I was knocked it out of the park. Yep, but he hardly was ever the the lead correct with some exceptions I Wondering if that's what his Yeah, don't know similar to you can let us know But I do enjoy him. So yeah, you let us know How this film is if this is one of the next Malolian film. Yeah, if you guys jump up and down for this like you did come to Longinites where I think it recommended so I would hope it's and from what we've Seen and heard is that it's very like Realistic is what Malolian? Yeah, I was gonna say the whole industry pretty much goes for realism realism as opposed to Which which doesn't make any sense to me why any industry wouldn't want to go for realism. Well, I mean there is a market come on We went so war. I know but outside of that Yeah, like why would you not try to be realistic? The only reason I can think of sincerely is like The action films that defy like the South Indian films that defy physics is just because there's an audience for And because I mean big B said this about sometimes in Bollywood with the Hindi films Folks want to be taken out of reality. They don't want to see things depicting real life They want something that's gonna transport them away from the real world for three hours so they can get away from it So there I mean there are I know people who that they don't like Dramas or things that touch too close to home because they don't want to go there They want to escape. They'd rather go to a you know, they'd rather visit a long time ago in a galaxy far far away Oh, me too. Yeah, so but I I you know me. I'm I like all of the above But when push comes to shove My favorite movies are ones that have some kind of an important message a social message and whether it's a musical It's a drama. It's a whatever. I if it's got some level of inspiration That's And John and I were just talking about the other day What's your favorite genre of movie and it would I like all genres that have some message that's inspiring? No, that wouldn't be mine. No, I don't need an inspiring message to love a film I prefer them in I like in the slightest actually prefer if it doesn't yeah, you like it to be you like anarchy kill everyone Those are my favorite films No, I like universal truths that have a great moral to the story and remind you about what's really important in life Those are my favorite films. No, it's comedy drama musical Well, obviously the the acting is first and foremost for me if you you have to have a really good acting Unbelievable acting. Yes And then obviously the rest of the film needs to follow suit But like I think I prefer to just be Surprised and a film I don't because like I don't like it if like if I can just predict your film I'm like, okay. Yeah, predictability isn't necessarily Not great, which is why I like a lot of the like when characters like in Combalogy nights, he just he just I love that and I'm like, what the hell does that make me so excited. Yeah You


Dear students, in this module, we are going to talk about one of an important symbolic interactionist, C. H. Cooley, and his theory of looking-glass self. It's an important contribution for the process of socialization. The looking-glass self refers to the idea that our sense of self develops through our interactions with other people. We imagine how we appear to others, interpret their reactions, and then develop our sense of self based on those interpretations. What are we? How do we feel about ourselves? How do we develop what we call ourselves? This is a very interesting concept that C. H. Cooley helps you to understand that when you have a mirror in front of you and you are looking at yourself in the mirror, the atmosphere is actually your mirror.  The way society perceives you and gives feedback about you, it is considered important for yourself and then you have that impression that this is how I should be. In Pakistan, the looking-glass self might be seen in the importance placed on social status and reputation and the ways in which individuals present themselves to others. So when we talk about reputation, we see what is important for us, how important our status should be, we are very conscious about our class and our cast in Pakistan, and all these things become a part of our personality. Why? Because the atmosphere makes you feel its significance or importance. The atmosphere is your looking-glass self, it is your mirror. You see your acts in that atmosphere and perceive yourself in such a way that the way the atmosphere thinks about me, I have to act in the same way, I have to react, I have to behave, and in the same way I have to make my personality. So Cooley believes that our sense of self is constantly evolving and is influenced by the feedback we receive from the others. So this is not stagnant, it does not stop at one place, it is a continuous process, the atmosphere provides us with feedback based on our actions and practices and as our practices and actions change, the feedback of the atmosphere also keeps changing and in the same way those changes become a part of our personality or our self. So in this approach, socialization into the self and mind is viewed as a social process that is continuously shaped and reshaped by our interactions with others. Since our interaction is limited in our childhood, our peer group or our family group is limited, so our personality develops in the same way. But as we grow up, we come into an external environment, we come into a school culture, we are connected to other institutions, so the mirror we judge is expanding, our context is expanding, so the same things become a part of our personality and social self. So Cooley believes that society is a kind of looking glass self in which an individual views himself or herself and develops his own personality. Thank you.


Hey everybody, Bob Tross here, post-game after a big win for the Stephenson Mustangs. And I'm joined by Sierra Samasko-Sierra.  Coach asked you to go from wing to center. It was a pretty big game to have a change like that happen. How was that? It was weird at first, definitely nerve wracking, because I never played it before. But it ended up coming together, and I think I played well with my wings. And I knew I had to talk to the defense, so it all ended up working out. You guys are trying to defend your title. So what's it going to take the rest of the way? We just had to do a little things. Got to keep working hard, and I know Coach will prepare us for ready this week. So just got to keep pushing through and look at that goal. It's pretty physical out there tonight. What was it like playing out there? It was physical, but we had to make sure that we didn't even get in our heads, which was hard. But I think the third period really got to us. So we were able to pull through. All right, thank you for your time. Best of luck next week at Endicott. Thank you. All right, that's Sierra Samasko on Bob Tross. Look out. The surging Mustangs are looking out to get a repeat going on here. Could happen. The trek continues next week.


So with no further ado, let's welcome Ron Lieber. Welcome to the Boglehead speaker series, Ron. Thank you, Rick. It is an honor here to be among, you know, sort of my fellow personal finance nerds. I know there are few people, you know, living and walking and breathing in the United States or in the world who care more about beating the system, winning the details and getting it right. And this crew, and it's a special honor to be here with Mr. Asset Allocation himself doing the grilling for the next 60 minutes. So I look forward to it, lay it on me. Well, Ron, we'll start out with you. Over the past decade, your writing has shifted to focus on family finances, but particularly raising children, teaching children about money and now sending those children to college. So I think I can guess this, but what sparked your interest in doing a book on the price you paid for college? Sure, well, some of this is born of my own personal experience. I grew up in Chicago, you know, my family was well off enough to, you know, afford three private school tuition, you know, back in the day in the 70s and 80s and when that didn't cost quite as much as it does today. And I had a couple of things happen in there that kind of changed everything for me. So my parents split up, if any of you are divorced or the children are divorced, you know that that is a calamitous financial event among others, right? You take one household, you turn it into two, they're just going to be more expenses. And then right about the same time, my father, my late father lost his job and he did not earn, you know, much income to speak of for the next couple of years, except through some occasional consulting jobs. And it was about a decade really until my family was back to where it had been financially. So right away, we were sort of thrust into the, you know, private school financial aid system for K to 12, such as it exists, you know, it basically consisted of a board of directors at our school in Chicago deciding whether the Lieberkitz were going to be evicted for lack of ability to pay. And thank God we worked. It's still the most generous thing that anybody's ever done for me.  So I got to stay there at the Francis Bar for school, but when it came time to apply to college, we did not have enough money for the places that I wanted to attend. Luckily our college counselor there knew the name of a guy to see, the guy in the Chicago land area, who you would go to for help with applying for financial aid. And we called him up, he gave us an address. He said we were to, you know, show up at 5 p.m. the following Tuesday at this place in Evanston. And we were gonna, you know, we're supposed to bring him $50 in cash. And he said to go through the side door. So we thought, okay. And we show up at this address and it turns out it's the office of financial aid at Northwestern University. And it turns out that we were there to see the assistant director who had this incredible side hustle going on where every day during the fall at 5 p.m. he would usher in these needy families and you would pay him a little money, which he presumably would not report to the IRS or certainly to his employer. And then he would proceed to explain to you all of the secrets of the financial aid system. And it turned out that this guy knew exactly what he was talking about. And I got into Amherst College early decision. I got a great financial aid package. And I learned a couple of important things from that.  He wasn't encouraging us to break the law, right? But there was this guy out there who knew the answers. And for very little money, you know, we could get ahold of him and he could tell us what to do. That lesson stayed with me, right? So it's not any big surprise, really, that I grew up to be the person whose beat is beating the system in the newspaper. That's always the way that I thought of my personal finance work at the Wall Street Journal and now at the New York Times. And as a part of that, but basically anything and everything that hits you in the wallet, you know, particularly items that have large costs or large potential costs and then involve a lot of emotions and feelings are the things that I care the most about. So of course, when I became a dad in 2005 for the first time, I now have two kids, a 15 year old and a five year old. I became a little bit obsessed with 529 plans.  As most of the people on this call probably know, we have largely, although not completely solved for the generalized mediocrity of these 529 plans. So, you know, at a certain point I moved on in my writing to write about how to pay for college instead of how to save for college because we were starting to hear about all of these people coming out of undergraduate with just, you know, piles of student loans, particularly, you know, 15 years ago when you could still get these so-called private loans not the federal loans that are capped, but private loans without any adult cosign. So I started, you know, getting into that area and I'm still writing, you know, sort of sporadically about those very complex systems involving money that we have not yet solved for in the New York Times. But what started to happen as time went on is that I would hear from readers and from, you know, colleagues and friends who were super confused, not so much about how to save and not so much about how to pay. They were asking value questions. They would come to me and they'd say, Ron, you know, my kid, you know, got into the University of Illinois at Champaign Urbana and that's gonna be maybe $125,000 because we don't qualify for any need-based aid. My kid also got into Kenyon College because they're interested in English, being a writer and that's a really great small liberal arts college in Ohio and they gave us a bunch of discounts even though we don't qualify for any need-based financial aid. That's gonna be $200,000 and then my kid shot the lights out and got into Northwestern, right? So that's gonna be $300,000. Where in your, you know, library of big data sets that you keep track of over there is the data set that tells me why, you know, Northwestern is $200,000 better than the University of Illinois. And we're gonna get into that. Yeah, and I didn't have that, right? So I thought, wow, I need to start thinking about value. I need to start thinking about what to pay for college too.  It was from personal experience as a student, as a middle-income student. It was from personal experience as an investor with one and then two kids living in New York City, a high-cost area. And then it was from professional experience with this like avalanche of incredibly confused people asking questions about value that I did not know how to answer. Well, your book starts with a discussion that contrasts the advertised cost of college by those institutions with the price of college. So I'm gonna show a chart. And this chart is the price of, of the cost of college from 1980 through 2000. Now, 1980 is a really important period of date for me because it's when I graduated college. And I went back and I looked, I actually paid room and board tuition and everything else, $10,000 for a four-year degree at the University of Rhode Island. That's what it costs. Now, this shows, this chart is showing the cost of college over the next 40 years going up by 1200%. And during that same period of time, the cost of inflation going up by 236. So here's what I did. I went back to my old alma mater, the University of Rhode Island. And I said, if I paid $10,000 back in 1980 and it was the cost of inflation was 236%. I would pay $36,600 for the same education today. Turns out, yeah, turns out though, I actually looked at the data that I got off the administration of the website from the University of Rhode Island and it came out exactly to $128,000. This chart is very accurate. Now, my question to you, Ron, is why does this chart exist? What happened here? Yeah, so I guess let's start by making sure we label this chart correctly, right? Because what we were looking at there was list prices. And I assume at some point sooner rather than later in the hour we'll get to net prices and discounts, right? But there are plenty of people who pay the list prices, particularly at public institutions like URI that don't have a lot of institutional aid. And there are, and if you're a good bogeyhead and you've saved effectively, you may have so many assets and perhaps enough income to support those assets. Kind of qualify for much need-based aid. And so you may well pay the list price. So let's talk about those list prices. First of all, let's consider a public institution like the one that you attended or any flagship state university. What's gone on there more than anything that's caused that line to be so steep is a decrease in the amount of subsidy that the state legislatures give to the schools, right? I mean, to the extent that the price that those institutions are quote unquote artificially low, that they don't cover the cost of actually maintaining the buildings and paying all the professors and providing programming for the students is because the state uses tax or other revenue and just hands it over to the university to keep tuition costs down, right? So back in the day, this was thought to be a useful enterprise, a good investment. A well-trained workforce grows up to be more productive, pays higher taxes because it's earning more and that money just sort of comes back to the state and it gets a return on investment. But back in the last big recession in particular 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, these states were so hammered by a loss of tax revenue in that enormous recession back then that they had to make some difficult choices and one really easy thing to do politically, right? It's just to sort of stick it to the state university system, right? And force the chancellor and the board to make difficult decisions about whether they're gonna raise prices or whether they're gonna cut services or cut programs, right? And those schools felt like, well, we can raise prices because what it really means is that these students and these families will probably just have to borrow a little bit more, maybe $1,000 extra per year. They can afford it, right? Because this was already a subsidized education in particular, but if that thinking continues to feed on itself over time, that's how you get a chart like this with public institutions. Now, if you're looking at the chart for private institutions, it's a little bit more like this, for a variety of reasons in the market that we can talk about. Still pretty steep, far outpacing inflation, maybe not, but starting from a higher price, which is why the angle of the slope is not as high as it would be for publics. With the privates, I have a different problem going on there, shared somewhat with the publics, but the private institutions need to justify their higher prices with more faculty, better services, shinier buildings, they're in competition with the state university systems. But the other thing they have going on is that as time has gone on, both market demand and regulatory requirements have meant that these institutions have either needed to or felt like they really had no choice, but to add a whole bunch of administrators, right? We've got all sorts of new laws that require equality on the playing field for our daughters, right? Title IX, all sorts of institutions that speak to diversity and equal access in areas outside of gender, we have ever higher technology budgets at these institutions. There are parents who demand bigger and better career centers, right? Kids have become accustomed to living in a certain manner, and if your dorms don't have air conditioning, well, people may not choose your school, right? And so there are all these market pressures, regulatory pressures, which has led to there being a much higher number of administrators at these schools. Ministrators don't come cheap, they're reasonably well trained, they're experienced, and I think if you get right down to it as a parent, if you've got a child who's going to college and they've got a medium grade mental health challenge, right? You don't want a 23 year old grad student working in the counseling center using your child as their guinea pig, right? You want a 43 year old PhD psychologist working in the mental health center to take care of your precious child who you've pushed off into the world for the first time, right? And you multiply that times, all sorts of different parents with all sorts of different needs, and pretty soon you have a lot more administrators than you used to, and that's got to be paid for some way. And for the private institutions, if they don't have a big endowment, that comes from tuition. So that's how the list price goes up there. I'll have another screen, and this one shows the difference for 2000, 2021, up on top is a two year public college, basically a community college, and then you have your four year college public, 26,800, and then you have your four year out-of-state, 43,000. This is all inclusive, it's tuition, room and board, books and supplies, transportation, and so forth. And then the bottom is your nonprofit, it's gonna be private nonprofit, four year college. Now, a couple of things that strike me as number one, why does it cost more money to live in a dorm in a private college than a public college? I don't know. The second thing is, the books, I noticed the books have increased with the rate of that original inflation, the cost. Books have gone up about 1200% over the last 40 years too. So they have far outpaced the cost of just buying a regular book. Back if you bought a regular book, the cost has actually come down, it's basically been lower than the inflation rate. So tell me if you will, if you know this, what's going on with textbooks, college textbooks? Why are they so expensive? Yeah, so I know a little bit about this only because I helped some friends of mine run a campus-based used bookstore back in the late 80s and early 90s. And look, some industries have higher profit margins than others. And textbook publishers really rake it in. Why didn't they do that? Well, first of all, I can tell you the how, right? If you put out a slightly changed, really just like repaginated or you changed the font size of the edition of your textbook every 18 months, then you can just sync the used textbook market all together. And if you wanna do well in the class and don't wanna be checking the book out from the library, you've got no choice but to buy this thing. And the books back in the day would only be available at the campus bookstore and you paid the list price and that was that. And there's a reasonably high barrier to entry for these things because the professors themselves have high standards. They want the textbook to be excellent. And it turns out it takes a couple of years to write like a really great, thoughtful textbook for organic chemistry or for Psych 101 or for Econ. And so they do this because they can. I mean, it's not an incredibly large piece of the budgetary pie, but it's just high enough that it really bugs people. And there have been various attempts at innovation, most recently with the electronic textbook publishing. And that's helped some, but this is just a slow industry to change. And people, the professors in particular have sort of ingrained habits and it's a tough one to crack. So let me ask a question since college is getting to be so expensive as we've seen. And we'll get into what people actually pay as opposed to what the advertised cost is here in a little bit, but tell me whether it's still worth it to pay all of this money to go to a four-year college?  And what's the data show?  Well, so I mean, let's start with it with the baseline economic data. The baseline economic data tells us that there's roughly a million dollar lifetime gap in earnings between people who go to college and finish, which is important because roughly, there's a very high percentage of people who go to college or start college and never actually finish. So that million dollar difference is between people who finish and people who don't or who never go in the first place, right? So that's a lot of money over time, but that's just an average, right? So of course, all of our kids are above average and the ones who are above average, who don't go to college are ones who enter highly paid trades for which there is a relatively consistent demand, often in a situation where they're self-employed and not at the whim of whether the local manufacturer moves out of town or whether the Chrysler plant closes and moves to Mexico.  I ask people to consider a different question, right? Because not everybody goes to college for the same reason in the first place. So trying to figure out what's worth it and how much it's worth gets to the very definition of what college is in the first place. And when I started doing the reporting for the price you pay for college, people sort of looked at me funny when I asked them, well, like what is college, right? They would sort of look back at me blankly and I'm like, surely you've thought about the point of the exercise if you're about to maybe spend $300,000 on this thing, right? And then their faces scrunch up and they're like, yeah, I guess we should do that, right? And so I get them talking, right? And it really just comes down to three things. College first and foremost, not foremost, foremost for some people. College first is about the education, right? It's about the learning. It's about having your mind grown and your mind blown, right?  So that's the first part. The second part of college for many people is the kinship, right? You go to college to find the people that you never could have imagined existing in the world, right? The people who will be by your side for the rest of your life and who will mold and shape you themselves through four years of banter and decades afterwards of friendship. These are also the people who will form the beginnings of your career network. And it's not just peers, by the way, it's also grownups, right? It is the professors, it is the deans or other people you encounter along the way who will become your mentor and who will drag you into a bigger and better version of yourself. So that's number two, college is about the people. And then number three, college is also, of course, at least for most people, about the credential, right? And maybe that's a credential that allows you to take a kind of quantum leap up the social class ladder and into a middle-class career where there is a reasonable amount of job security, because you've gotten a bachelor's in nursing or a bachelor's in accounting or something like that or you're gonna go to med school. Or perhaps you're getting that credential because you know that the degree from Princeton when you're coming from rural Wisconsin will open doors for you into industries and companies that never would have been open to you otherwise. With the sort of social capital and the snobbery and elitism and all of it, you know, that comes with a fancy name-plated degree. So those are the three things that our college are about. And there's no right answer to the question. Some people think all three are of equal importance. Then there's some people who are only going for the kinship and I make no judgments about that. I only make judgments about the people who never stop to ask themselves the question in the first place. Because if you don't do that, how do you know what you're shopping for? So we're going to go to college. The children or the grandchildren are gonna go to college. Now we have to figure out, well, which college and then how to get into that college and then how to pay for that college. So let's start out with selecting the right school. You list three unhelpful feelings. You call them the three unhelpful feelings of fear, guilt and stubbornly and elitism. Can you explain why these are unhealthy? Sure. Well, I guess where you start, right? Is you always wanna be checking yourself, right? And this is not gonna be any news to Bogleheads, right? You know, the Boglehead community has become used to over decades, resisting flashiness, resisting so-called expertise, resisting the smart man and the smart woman who are supposedly the end-all, be-all of investing prowess, right? And so what are the things that can cause you to spend more than you need to? And I think those emotions and those answers supply equally well to colleges that they do to mutual funds or ETFs, right? First of all is fear, right? Fear that if you don't spend money, fear that if you don't believe that you'll get what you pay for and the more you pay, the more you'll get. That the fear that if you do it wrong, if you cheap out, right? Then in this instance, your kids will go tumbling down the social class ladder from wherever it is that you've managed to clamber up to because you were too cheap, essentially, right? And that there's something wrong with you as a parent or as a grandparent. If you're not ponying up for the most expensive version of whatever it is that you know that your kid actually needs, right? College is not a want for many families, it's a given, so this is actually a need, it's just a question of how much you're going to pay for it. So there's that fear, right? Then there's guilt, guilt that we have not saved enough to provide whatever it is our kid wants in this category of need. Guilt that we do not earn enough, guilt that we chose the wrong profession that does not allow us to write a $300,000 check after taxes out of current income. Guilt that we cannot do what our parents did for us, even though Rick's parents in 1980, if they did pay for any of it, and it looks like they didn't, but had they wanted to or been able to, the final price tag for you, as you just explained at the top of the hour, doesn't look anything like the $128,000 price tag, that somebody in Kingston or Cranston or Providence would be looking at right now, right? And so, we get ourselves all hung up on what our parents did for us without really understanding that the world has changed entirely. Or maybe we get all hung up on what our parents did not do for us, right? And we either deeply resent that they had the ability but not the willingness to pay for us or we know how much we struggled because they did not have enough money through no faults of their own. And we want it to be exactly the opposite for our kids. We want them never to have to worry about money during college for a second, no matter how much it costs, right? And if we haven't accomplished that, if we haven't satisfied that goal, then we're doing it wrong, right? So it's just like guilt, guilt, guilt. We can send ourselves on so many guilt trips about this stuff and I'm trying people, trying to get people off those guilt trips. And then the fear and the snobbery is, about the subconscious or maybe the conscious sense that where our kid goes to school, where we can afford to send our kid, where they are able to get in, is all some kind of final exam on parenting that the results of with blade in public to the public through like the Facebook and Instagram sweatshirt reveals and the bumper sticker in the window, right? And you want that college to be as prestigious or fancy as possible, otherwise you did it wrong. Otherwise, you've gotten a C minus as a parent, right? Or even if we managed to kind of get over that and step outside of ourselves, we're worried about other people's snobbery, right? Because if we got a 16 year old budding investment banker on our hands and that kid has already figured out that like, oh, okay, if I'm gonna do this, I wanna be an investment banking analyst, Goldman Sachs or Morgan Stanley or a couple of other Wall Street firms.  But they are gonna hire you out of Princeton. They are gonna take a close look there. And so, if you've got 10,000 acres and 5,000 head of dairy cattle up in Northern Wisconsin and you're tempted to just send your kid to Wisconsin white water, that's great.  Not because you think it's worth it, but because somebody else on Wall Street is a big freaking snob, right?  And that is how people end up spending $300,000 or borrowing to do so. And sometimes it's for a reasonably good reason and sometimes it's because people are confused. So, you talk a lot in the book about value and are you getting the value out of your education or so forth. So how do you separate for each individual? Of course it's different. So how do you separate value and how do you find value in the college system? Sure, so I mean, it begins with trying to figure out what it is that you're going to school for, right? So let's forget about the 16 year old investment banker for a minute. Let's think about the 16 year old who wants nothing more than to be a marine biologist, right? The eight year old who loves the dolphins, this is the 16 year old who's shooting the lights out in AP Bio and has done an internship and is reasonably sure that they wanna go not just to college but to graduate school, right? So you're thinking about a lot of things there, right? But probably the first thing you're thinking about hopefully is you're thinking about the quality of the education but what you're also thinking about is the quality of the mentorship, right? Because you know that you can't get into one of these teeny tiny, very competitive marine biology PhD programs or you figure this out with a little bit of research, you can't do that without just a glowing lights out recommendation from your undergraduate faculty advisor, right? So how are you gonna find somebody in an institution who's gonna actually get to know your kid well enough to be able to write that kind of recommendation? And what sort of environment or circumstances are going to need to exist? Is there a better chance of that happening if they're in biology 101 with 800 other people including 300 people who wanna go to medical school or is there a better chance of that happening if they go to a small liberal arts college that happens to have a really great biology program, right? So you start thinking about size, you start thinking about faculty content, right? Again, right? If you're up there in Northern Wisconsin and you've got that budding marine biologist on your hands who wants to do it someplace other than Lake Superior, maybe you're gonna send them to Madison or to Wisconsin Whitewater but there may be a lot of adjunct professors there or part-timers who aren't even gonna be around two or three years later, whereas if they go to Lawrence University, smaller school, if they go to Knox College, if they go to one of the smaller colleges in Minnesota, they're gonna have a better shot at making that kind of contact, right? And then you can go looking for data which actually does exist that will tell you which undergraduate institutions, the PhD students at the biggest biology programs for PhD students, where the undergraduates actually come from, right? This data is out there. So you start looking for whatever data or evidence you can that exists that might give you some sense of whether an institution that costs more than your state university might actually be worth it if it stands the chance of raising the odds of helping your kid do whatever is that they wanna do. So there are a number of problems with this, right? First of all, to the extent that the colleges have good data on outcomes, they're not always so great about sharing, right? Because if everybody shared standardized data, then there would be even more ways to compare and rank the schools and this is not in their interest. And so there's not always great data. It isn't easy to find. I spent years sort of hoovering up resources and trying to spit them out in the book but I was not ultimately satisfied with what I was able to put together and it's the school's fault, right? And then there's the not so small matter of the fact that we are dealing with children, right? For reasons lost to history but that make absolutely no sense whatsoever. We spend all this money on teenagers, right? We don't send them off to serve in the US armed forces on a mandatory basis. We don't send them off to do non-military national service. We don't encourage them for the most part to take a year or two off before going to college. So we've got these 18 year olds who've never done a darn thing in the world except, you know, scoop ice cream and work at a day camp and, you know, sit in high school going to college and we're making these six figure decisions, investments based on what we think their interests are but some of them have no earthly idea what they want to do. And then many of the rest who are absolutely certain about Wall Street or Marine biology change their minds once they get into a really good college classroom and get exposed to, you know, bigger and better ideas. So the whole thing is fundamentally flawed and deeply dissatisfied. And I'm just trying to help people, you know, walk through a reasonably dysfunctional system with their hedge screwed on reasonably straight. Well, that's great. Okay. So at the end of this journey, you're gonna pick out a few schools and you're gonna have to apply to get into those schools. So I have a slide on that and here's my slide for that. Is it flickering or is it okay? Can you see that? Yeah. Well, I learned this by watching television. But anyway, so now we need to get in. We need to get in. And with that in mind, the big thing these days seems to be diversity. I was listening to some entrance experts, if you will, former admissions experts and they were talking about diversity, diversity, diversity, not just race and religion, but athletics, anything that sets you apart from others. So how do you use diversity to get into the school you wanna get into? Sure. So, I mean, let's just, you know, talk briefly and bluntly about how this works at, you know, the 20 rejected schools in the country, right? The schools that reject the highest percentage of applicants. And there you are at the biggest, you know, advantage. You are rich and if you are white, you're at an advantage if you're rich because you can donate building, right? And it tends to be way more affluent and way whiter people who benefit from what's known as legacy preference, right? Where your grades can be lower and your scores can be lower as long as your mom or your dad or both or like four generations of cabbets, you know, or eight generations, you know, went to Harvard or Amherst or Stanford. Those people tend to be disproportionately affluent and white. When it comes to athletic preference, which gives you even a bigger edge than legacy preference does, you know, many of those sports, although not all, but, you know, the majority of them are sports that require a great deal of investment and nurturing to, you know, get you to a place through the private tutoring, through the, you know, through the, you know, the, you know, kind of elite level club sports, right? That will get you ready to swim or play golf or play tennis or play lacrosse or play hockey at an institution that will give you a preference, right? So there too, being wealthy gives you the bigger advantage and more often than not, the people who are wealthy are white. Same thing through with, you know, testing tutoring on academics and then there are preferences based on race, which are the ones that get the most attention but may have a little bit less to do with who gets in than, you know, the total number of people who get in via legacy preference or via athletic preference, particularly in the rich white sports. So all of that is like a, you know, big kind of toxic stew that generates a lot of attention. But what I think people miss a lot of the time is that like a step below there at some still, like really excellent high quality schools that, you know, reject way more applicants than they can take. There is actually, you know, a huge advantage to being able to pay full price because they get 50 or 75% of the way through the number of admissions they have to hand out and then they start running out of financial aid money, right? And then the packages get weaker or they just start rejecting people who need aid, right?  That I, you know, I didn't want money to be a factor and so I just started saving for college for my kids. Like, well, they were still in the U-Door, right? So money does provide a really sizable and sometimes measurable admissions advantage there too. So, you know, in many of these institutions that the parents would be proud to send their kids to, it's good to be rich. So, you know, it's complicated and it becomes politicized, but the fact of the matter is that they're all sorts of people of all sorts of skin tones and backgrounds benefiting from a certain amount of admissions preference. And that makes it harder, you know, in many instances and most instances for people who do not have any sort of a hook. But we shouldn't forget that there are hundreds and hundreds of, you know, essentially open access undergraduate institutions out there where more or less anybody can go, you know, if you can fog a mirror and, you know, and there's a lot of dedicated instructors at those places too. And, you know, I don't want to discount the worth of those institutions. So I was reading in the book that we were talking about the advertised price of college and the two reasons why colleges put these very high prices on their website. Number one, because some people will pay it, they'll pay it. And number two is because if they don't put the high price on there, people don't think they're getting good value for their money. So with that in mind, let's getting into how do we pay for college? First of all, let's talk about discounting. And I really, it was enlightening to me in reading your book that internally, admissions people call it discounting, but externally, they call it scholarships. Go into discounting. I mean, what should you pay? Not what the price is, but what should you pay? Right. Well, gosh, where do we start here? I mean, there's a couple of different ways that these discounts happen. We'll use the terms interchangeably, but what you want to be thinking about as a parent, as a shopper, right? Like, what is my actual cost of attendance going to be? And if I get an offer of financial aid, am I 100% sure I understand which of these discounts are scholarships that we're not going to have to pay back? And that we understand how much the school is asking us to actually pay out of pocket or what it's telling us to borrow, right? So there's two basic kinds of financial aid. Back in our day, even back in my day, I'm a couple of years younger than you, Rick, most of the financial aid that was offered was offered based on need, right? So my family had to kind of lay ourselves bare in terms of our income and our assets. And then Amherst College decided what they thought we could afford to pay. And they basically were good for the rest of it with a couple of campus jobs and undergraduate loans thrown in. What's changed now is that that need-based aid system still exists. And at the 100 or so most well-resourced private institutions in America, state systems are a little different. But at the private ones, it still kind of looks like that. But starting around in the 90s, this whole separate system hived off. This become known as Merit Aid. And Merit Aid was originally designed to help fourth-tier institutions improve to the third or second tier by swiping kids who were qualified for second or even first-tier institutions by throwing money at them and making them feel good, right? So if you got this unsolicited offer in the mail after you took your PSAT test and you've done well from a school that you've never heard of, the letter would say, hey, we have our eye on you and we're not gonna charge you any application fee. If you come here and you get in, we'll give you $5,000 off the list price. And that worked so well. So many of the good smart kids, like we're getting bought off from higher-tier institutions, that market forces intervened, competition took hold and over the course of 10 or 15 or 20 years, it just kind of moved farther and farther up the food chain where now it's really only 30 or 40 schools that aren't forced to offer some kind of discount. And let's be clear too, this Merit Aid discounting, it has nothing to do with your ability to pay and kind of everything to do with your willingness, right? So there are all sorts of super rich families who are being offered 10, 20, $30,000 off a year or even a full ride if the school has decided that their kids are attractive, whether because of their actual academic or extracurricular merit, or just because they're throwing money around to try and get people to come. So think about it this way, right? If you're Kenyan College in Ohio or Connecticut College in New London, Connecticut, if you are McAllister College in St. Paul, Minnesota, you know, excellent schools, but they have slipped enough in terms of marketplace perception that even a certain number of people with the ability to pay $75,000 a year are lacking the willingness to do so, right? But if you are a McAllister and your cost to educate a student is $42,000 a year, right? You're charging a list price of $70,000, right? If you throw an $18,000 merited package at an affluent family, that family's gonna feel really good about what it has accomplished, right?  Their cost of attendance in any given year is $52,000, but if McAllister only needs $40,000 to educate that kid, that's still a $12,000 profit, right? And they can take that profit and they can toss it out a lower income family and help them too, right? So in theory, everybody wins, but it's a real weird look to be throwing scholarships at millionaires, which is essentially what's going on. And so as a parent, as a shopper, it is not at all clear that this is going on, the extent to which it's going on, nor is it predictable in many instances how much you will get, right? And so for somebody with like a bogal head mindset, the temptation and the desire, once you understand what's going on behind the curtain, is to crack the code, right? To try and beat the system. And so I did my level best in the book to show people exactly where the data is that can give them some level of predictability about what kind of meridian might be offered. But the fact of the matter is is that the schools kind of change their goals each year, in part, depending on their own institutional priorities and also based on what's going on in the market around them. And especially in the last couple of years with the pandemic, whatever algorithms they're using to try and decide what prices to offer, which students, which is another revelation for people, a lot of these meridian offers are delivered by robots, by software, not by humans, right? These algorithms can't predict how people are gonna behave during a pandemic. And so you're getting all sorts of wacky results where people are getting no discounts or they're deciding to apply to 22 schools just because it's also unpredictable and they're only getting into four and it's all a real hash. I do hope that things will have kind of leveled out and they'll be making more sense by next year. But it's not always predictable. So the best we can do sometimes is just to attempt to explain how the system works even if we can't predict precisely what kind of offer it's going to make in any given year. Let's get on to a couple of other ways of saving. And that is the most popular one is a 529 plan. And a lot of people use 529 plans, parents use them, grandparents use them, some states give tax breaks, some don't. A lot of people ask the most common question I get about 529s is how much is enough? How much should I put in? What should I put in every year and what do I need to get to by age 18 when my son or daughter goes to college? So could you talk about 529? And then the next question I'm gonna ask would be the final question because we don't have any more time will be student loans. So 529s first and then student loans second. Sure, so let's start with 529s as I think most of the people in this crowd probably know the nice thing about 529s is that they come with some sizable tax benefits, right? In 30 some states, you get some kind of a tax break for putting money in the first place. And then for everybody, you get a huge tax break on the way out as long as you take the money and you use it for some higher educational purpose or for private kids, 12 schools in many states, you don't pay any capital gains taxes on the earnings. And so if you started age zero and you get the kind of market that we've had the last 15 or 20 years, you're gonna have a lot of capital gains that you're not paying taxes on. So yay for being in the system, right? So the downside is there's a bit of complexity. Every state has their own plan. The rules tend to be different, different investment lineups sometimes although with increasing like less frequency, your plan may not have an index fund for every asset class that you want to be in, although that's mostly gone now. It was definitely the case 10 or 15 years ago. Thankfully, Vanguard is in, and others who index are running or providing investments for most of these plans. So how much should you save? Well, save as much as you reasonably can, right? Everybody's different, but here's something to anchor to that might make you not freak out because I talked to a lot of parents of young kids and if they can do any kind of inflation math in their head, they're thinking, wow, if I want my kid to go to the institutions that we went to, it's gonna be $500,000 by the time they're 18. And that's insane, right? Like I'm still paying off my student loan debt. We haven't bought our forever home yet. We wanna have seven figures in retirement savings. How am I gonna do this, right? So many years ago, I had a conversation with a financial planner in Wisconsin named Kevin McKinley, who came up with what I now refer to as the McKinley rule, which is just to think about it in fractions. Like, you could think about it this way, right? You wanna save a third of the money that they'll need for college and maybe your goal is public or maybe your goal is private or maybe it's somewhere in between those two list prices as we've discussed, right? So you wanna save a third, you wanna pay for a third out of current income, right?  Maybe the parents borrow half of that third and the kid borrows the other half, right? Although if your kid goes to a state university, the federal loan borrowing limit of $31,000 or so will almost cover that third all alone, right? So then this starts to feel reasonable, right? If your goal is to end up with $50,000 of savings in today's dollars, you can do that with 250 bucks a month or whatever it is depending on your return assumptions. And that starts to feel a little more doable for families, right? Then you're not driving yourself crazy. Now that number is gonna need to be higher if you wanna have a third of a private college available to you 18 years from now. And if you have more than one kid, well, right, there you go, right? So what can you do? Well, you can talk to grandparents about this, right? Even $50 a month of contribution from a relative can make an appreciable difference going forward. Okay to ask, right? Much better than all the plastic drinkets that they tend to show up with that end up underfoot and then in the garbage. And so those are the basics, right? There's an hour long debate we could have about whether you might be better off just saving a standard brokerage account for a whole variety of reasons. And that's fine if that's the way you wanna go. I just urge, beg people to start early, save as much as you reasonably can. It is so rare that anybody regrets saving too much for college, that would be a high class problem. So let's talk about student loans for a couple of minutes. I mean, there are three types. The direct loans from the government, as you mentioned and then there's private loans and then there's parent loans called direct PLU loans. Could you just briefly describe the three different types? Sure. So it has worked different ways over the years but the way it works today is that if you are borrowing from the federal government, there's no bank involved, right? And in most instances, if your kid is a dependent, they can borrow roughly $31,000 and change over the course of four years. And then what's known as a servicer will step in to start sort of collecting those payments. So those are how the undergraduate loans work. Then there are private loans from institutions like Sally Mae, Discover, maybe your credit union does some of this, few other companies may have heard of. And again, back in the day, undergraduates used to be able to get private loans on top of the federal loans or in lieu of the federal loans without any kind of parental grown-up co-signer and that is not the case anymore.  Then there are those parent loans that you mentioned. There are the what's known as the plus loans that you can get from the federal government pretty high origination rate, pretty high interest rate. People who do feel the need to borrow sometimes will borrow against their home instead to avoid these federal loans. But parents are increasingly using them and we actually know more about where this plus loan borrowing tends to be most persistent and it is not as you would expect at private institutions that are not all that well resourced in terms of their financial aid offerings and also historically black schools have a fair amount of parent borrowing there as well.  Well, last minute here, you offer a message of hope for people and you just give us your message of hope. Sure, so let me tell you about the opposite of hope. I mean, the opposite of hope is all of these calls that I used to get in March and April from incredibly smart people who like help run institutions in New York City who you would have that you have actually heard of and they have gotten to the end of the process and realized that they had no idea that they weren't gonna get any discounts and that their kid had applied to all of the wrong schools and they're just saying to me, Ron, is there's something you can do to help? And after too many of these calls, I thought, wow, it is deeply problematic here that the system is so complicated and while I can't solve for that, I can certainly help pull the curtain back so that people know first of all, like how the system works, the best ways to get discounts most effectively and how to shop for the sort of institutions that will give their kid everything that the kid needs at least some of what they want and for people to know that they don't have to spend $300,000 or anything close to that to accomplish those needs. And once you're going into the process with a head of steam and frankly, like a bobblehead style, system beating, question authority, question everything mindset, it actually starts to be fun again and less about dread and more about this incredible experience that you are gonna be able to provide for your kid one way or the other that will change their life, right? And as much as you may dread letting them go, you should also be excited and hopeful about the fact that you're able to provide it for them. So I don't want this to be a downer. I don't want people to be angry by the end of the book. I want them to feel ready, right? And I want them to feel excited and jealous, frankly, that their kid gets to do this amazing thing. Well, the name of the book is The Price You Pay for College, an entirely new roadmap for the biggest financial decision your family will ever make by Ron Lieber. Ron, thank you so much for being a guest today. It's been a wonderful presentation and we've all learned a lot. It's a pleasure and an honor. And I'm easy to find at ronlieber.com. If you have questions or observations or ideas for additional avenues of exploration, those ideas are gold to me. So thank you. Thank you, Ron.


From the heart of the jungle comes a savage cry of victory. This is Tarzan, Lord of the Jungle. From the black core of dark Africa, land of enchantment, mystery and violence, comes one of the most colorful figures of all time, transcribed from the immortal pen of Edgar Rice Burroughs. Tarzan, the bronze white son of the jungle. And now in the very words of Mr. Burroughs, the story of Tarzan and the missing yellow. Long ago, in appreciation of an invaluable service Tarzan had rendered them, the people of the Wakanori tribe had erected a cabin for his exclusive use and fitted it with native furniture of fine woods, animal pelts of incredible softness and tribal ornaments of rich gold and costly gems. For unlike much of the jungle, the land of the Wakanori was poutable and its people desired to share their wealth with the Lord of the Jungle. Not often did Tarzan tarry in this home they had made for him, but now he had returned. Manu, you're going to sweep the whole floor away. It's only made of hard-baked clay. Besides, you've done quite enough for me. Much work to do yet. Manu, stay. Seems that your Kitata wants to go home. Tarzan, wake him up with man's noises. Oh, sorry. But it can't be too comfortable jiggling around in your back as you sweep. Now, if you'd take my advice and... Long ago, men of Wakanori built Hema for Tarzan and Manu promised he'd always keep Hema clean. Even when Tarzan not here, Manu... Manu, you made that vow when you were a very young child. Now, you're grown. You have a fine husband and a lovely baby. And you have quite enough to do to take care of your own Hema. As soon as I brought some water from the reservoir, I shall have everything I need. There's no water in Red's water. What? But I passed it only a short time ago. It seemed as solid as the day I helped your tribe build it. And it's spread by a dozen jungle streams, so surely it couldn't have gone. Streams, fly up. Only water left and buried is small amounts in your river. But that water's not fit to drink. The red sun indicates many dry months ahead, and a severe drought could wipe out every animal and human in this entire portion of the great jungle. Nadio Tarzan. Chief of Wakanori know that great bowl of rocks Tarzan built is dry. Try fine springs, not fine. Dig wells deep, not strike water. Well, then you must move your village to another part of the jungle. To the mountains, north of here, perhaps. Tribe not move. His word of Lokemoku, which doctor of Wakanori. But why should he be opposed to a track if the very life of your tribe depends upon it? Well, answer Tarzan. Lokemoku. He's not which doctor who makes laws. But gods of Wakanori tribe. They speak to Lokemoku. Say, people of Wakanori stay in crawl where they live many years. Must obey word of God. Great Chief, you know that I respect your people and your beliefs. I wear upon my wrist the ruby symbol of your gods. For I consider it an honor when you bestowed it upon me. But now I say that if your gods insist that you stay here to perish of first, you must turn against them. You must find new gods who will lead you away from a land of ruin. Blasphemer, first man of Wakanori who go against word of gods, pays with life, will be struck down by anger of gods he defies. Philip's satisfaction was beginning to grow among the people and the witch doctor finally agreed to appeal to his deities. Under cover of darkness he left the village. But instead of heading for the temple deep in the jungle, he journeyed for a night and a day until he had reached a trading post within the shadows of the towering Miyazori Mountains. Trading post? Did it suddenly begun to resemble a fortress? Raised platforms have been built for strategic gun locations, a crew of rough-looking mystery ants had been imported to form a monthly army, and a spike fence of iron was being constructed around the entire stockade.  I didn't have it cornered 800 miles to let it get rusty while you loaf on the job. Oh, my friend the voodoo speeler. I didn't see you sneak up. Locomoco, not sneak up.  I don't want to talk in front of these yags. Nadio, it's better Locomoco and Buonorudec hold Palava and Adonis. People of Okanori do, as Locomoco say, they not move.   Nadio? Well, they cost a lot of dough. They've come a long way, but they've got your gods beat eight different ways when it comes to telling them about the weather. What they tell you, Buonorudec? That it ain't gonna rain for a long, long time. But then I'll have every jewel, every valuable pelt, every nugget of gold and tusk of ivory that's worth hauling back to civilization. I'll be glad to trade with me in a few weeks. All of them have been so high and mighty.  Before I'll give them a bite of food or a drop of water. Now, in the crawl of the Okanori, the signs of the coming famine became abundantly clear. The wild grasses on which the cattle had fed turned brown and useless. The coconuts became shrunken and distorted, and the riverbed was transformed into a pit of acrid dust. But still, the people of Okanori tarried. But Locomoco had returned from what he described as the journey to the home of the gods, the word that the deities had denied his petition. That the tribe must remain in their village until a sign was given. How long must your people wait for this sign, new speaker? Must we wait until all die? Locomoco has given word of gods. We must move. Death to first man of Okanori who departs from Crop. I cannot believe your gods have passed a death sentence on the entire Okanori tribe. I shall be the first to leave. Let them strike me down if it is their will. People of Okanori remained, but the animals abandoned the arid land in a mighty wave that swept everything from its path. Tarzan sped northward, far above the brawling animals, but he suddenly came to an abrupt halt as he heard a sound that could have been emitted by only one creature. Manu will end your suffering. My blades will move fast. Manu, what were you about to do? Drive from village, die. Others separated from Manu by animals. He thought I lost my life from lack of milk. Tell me, dead, how Manu? He would unshed up others. Then suddenly he dropped no sign on him. I shall take you back to the village. Then I shall get milk for your baby and return. Where Tarzan gets milk? From the trading post of Amil Rudek. Hey, jungle man, step lively. There's plenty of others waiting. Oh, I see. Hundreds of them, herded together like cattle. Look, I don't have to take your smart talk. I've got plenty of big men with big guns. So what'll it be? I want some milk. What you got to trade for it? A well-cured gorilla hide. One hide?  I might trade for that trinket you got on your wrist. Trinket? This bracelet contains an Oriental pigeon's blood ruby. It was given to me by... I ate it or said in its history. Okay, here you are. You propose to trade this invaluable bracelet for one small can of powdered milk in that tiny flakken of water? I don't propose nothing. That's the deal. Now you're holding up the line. Make up your mind quick. Take it or leave it? I'll take it. Here, Manu. Perhaps these may help. Mix them together, but give it to him sparingly. It may have to last for many days. Santa, Santa! Oh, Hale Gani! Men of Wakanari! People of village, much sick, hungry, thirsty. How much longer can you endure the false words of your witch doctor? See what happened to Kilni, first man to go against word of gods? I examined what was left of his body. And although I can prove nothing, I believe he was not the victim of a god's anger, but of a man's poison. You make careful with words, Tarzan. I shall say nothing more. For now. I'm more interested in the living. Do your gods still command you to sacrifice your entire tribe by staying here? No. Lokomoko have received signs. God say people pack everything of value. Helps gold ivory precious stone then take jungle trail to north by way trading post of Buona Rudec. And so the great migration began. A few of the natives yielded to temptation and Lokomoko's words and joined the long lines that sweltered outside of the trading post. But most of the tribe followed Tarzan up the tortuous trail that scaled the sheer palisades of the Miyazori's to Wajui Cabo, the green valley. This land of promise. So where is milk for Kitato? I will find some. The jungle provides everything. Water in Lake Hidu? The deal is pure. People of Wajinori are safe. Look Tarzan. Lokomoko comes. Well, mighty witch doctor. Did you learn the truth about your friend, Rudec? I come to save people from Tarzan's mistake. Mistake? Here you find fruits, berries, nuts, some game, but not last long. Soil, full rocks, shale. Can never grow corn, plantain in Wajui Cabo. Which doctor speaks truth Tarzan? Tell people you make mistake Tarzan. Tell them follow Lokomoko to trading post where white wanna give them food, water. Yes, as long as they're valuable to last. And then what? Slavery? No, Lokomoko. I refuse to believe that your gods desire the people to yield to either you or Rudec. You see proof of God's anger that people hear your voice. Yes, we'll come to him who first drank of water from Lake of Miyazori. She reached the lake ahead of the others. And it was her baby who first tasted it with water. To be aware of the witch doctor, but beyond that he could do little. The baby was but one small person and there were many lives at stake. Despite his exhausting search, however, Tarzan could find no answer to the great problem. This time the jungle refused to supply their needs. He returned to the makeshift village disheartened. But as he did so, a strange sight met his eye. Say that, man. You can start re-loading the equipment. Oh, Lord, you'd better move that tractor away from the edge of the cliff. It's taken too much effort of hauling it up here to take a chance of looting it. It was very important. Er, Eggleson, you'd better start your soil test at once. Greetings to you, city man. How'd you do? Just a trifle strange to find a white man's safari on top of a Congo mountain. Would you care to satisfy my curiosity and tell me the meaning of your presence and the reason for all this equipment? Oh, not at all. The name's Triton, Leslie Triton, head of the agricultural station, Becarata. We had word of your plight and we're here to do something about it, if we'd say possible. The jungle provides... Pardon? Nothing. I'm most happy to see you, sir. My name is Tarzan, and these unhappy people are of the Wakanori tribe. If you can tell them how to make this soil... Oh, I'm having young ladies who can make tests, but now that I've seen this land, I'm a bit skeptical. The lake furnaces a good source of water, and we brought seed and equipment along, but it's extremely doubtful if we can transform the share-laden soil into fertile earth. You have dynamite with you, Mr. Triton? We have some. Well, if you cannot make fertile soil of the Lake District, you must take the lake to fertile soil. Well, if it's possible that if we could wash the narrow gorge in just the right place, I, Joe, I think you've struck on something. Tarzan! Tarzan! Yes, Maru? There'd be much, there'd be much. Here, take this Dran, Dakitoru. Forgive it to him. Knowing that I could not keep my eye on the witch doctor all the time I prepared this yesterday, it's the jungle's most effective emetic. Had Kalne used it in time, he might have lived. Take care, Kitoto. Take rules of the Keter plan. Oh, take. Take. It's possible to live. You dare not put anything in milk of Kitoto, but you might have dropped a little of your voodoo medicine into the vessel that Manu used when she milked the ibex we obtained. Not true. Tarzan make lies to turn people against me.  He lived but not because of Lokomoku. But not matter now. Kalzen, you best get everyone back of this. There's a chance of dynamite right over there. We're about to let it fly. Everyone, get back. Everyone. We get back. Move back, everyone. Lokomoku, that includes you. Don't worry, I'm not going to touch you. You needn't put your hands up. In rude, extrading post where I left it. It's part of your payment like the gold I found in your tent for agreeing to sell your people into slavery. Here, I'm going to walk in on it. It's proof of your witch doctor's ability. Do not prove thing against Lokomoku. Lie. Lie. Careful. Careful, Lokomoku. You're running right into the pamphlet. There's one charge back Tarzan, but we were too late to stop the other one. Well, it was not your fault. And had he lived, he would have been condemned. But you don't realize what's happened, man. With only the one charge going off, the gorge has been cut in the wrong place. We'll need a retaining wall of concrete to channel the water in the light direction. Then how would we ever get cement up here? You see that tremendous hill of ants? Well, of course I do, but... It extends for miles, and the saliva of those ants makes a mortar stronger than any cement ever manufactured by man. You'll find when you know this land well enough that the jungle provides everything. Crazy. That's amazing, Tarzan. But I'm afraid there's still one missing element one the jungle can't possibly provide. A retaining wall of that size with the reinforcing rods of strong metal. And without them, we'll... And the thunderous hyup you. Not no. Look! By the droves. Coming to them like a... like a literate, friendly puppy. But that skill doesn't explain what... Who admired a tremendous manor. Down the sheer precipices of Miyazori went the mighty legion, right to the garrison trading posts of Udek. They smashed the form of a barricade, trampled the men who trained guns on them. In vain did Amur Udek try to marshal his demoralized army of clugs. And when in terror, he finally attempted to escape, he ran under the path of a toppling hog's head, there to be drowned. In the very water he had denied the thirsty. And when the battle had been won, the elephants under Tarzan's direction demolished the fortress and uprooted the spiked iron fence, which they laboriously transported back to Wajui Kabo, the Green Valley. Why you bring iron fence, Tarzan? It's obvious, Maru. You see before you the reinforcements for the concrete wall. LL fit the bell to it, Tarzan. And the water of the lake will flow into the parts jungle? Oh, before too long. We have the missing element, all right, Tarzan. What did? Tell me. How in the devil did you ever conceive of such an idea? Well, for a long time now I've been thinking that we've actually been fighting a sort of war with Udek. And then suddenly I remembered something I'd read in the only book translated into every language in the world. It suggested to me that if swords could be beaten into plowshares and spears into pruning hooks, then a spiked fence used in a war to deprive men of food. Might well be transformed into an instrument for peace and happiness. A frightened group of men threatened by death at the hands of savage beasts of the jungle. Defenseless animals killed by these men they seek to destroy. A small boy alone in a ghost city that's about to be demolished.  All of these end new death. Our next thrilling story of the Lord of the Jungle. One of the famous Edgar icebergs is produced by Walter White Jr. Prepared for radio by Bud Lesser with original music by Albert Blaster. This is a Commodore production.


Hi everyone, Joe for jaspeaskacebrake.com coming out to you with 2017, Panini, Donner's Football, Hangerbox, number three, Ram Team Break number three with four puppy bowl mixers spots being given away. Team Ruffer, Team Fluff, who are you for? We're gonna hit the break itself first, no vet commonship and at the end we'll re-randomize everybody's names with a new dice roll. Top four are in the mixer, which is probably most likely gonna be tomorrow. We gotta do a few more of these filler breaks, so keep your eye out for more on jaspeaskacebrake.com and let's get them done. A few thanks to these folks for getting into it, there are the teams right there. Let's roll it and randomize it five into three, eight times for each list. One, two, three, four. And eighth and final time after eight, we got Travis Dowell down to Jason Sebert. Five into three, eight times for the teams, one, two, three, four. And eighth and final time after eight, we've got the Niners down to the Jaguars. All right, so here is the first half of the list right there. There's the second half of the list right there. There you go. Let's sort it by column B, by team, let's get it all on one screen, there we go. And so at the end of the break, we'll re-randomize your names in the top four, get a Puppy Bowl mixer spot, one Puppy Bowl mixer spot, two, three, four. And doesn't this have break credit? Yeah, I promise that if the hanger, blah, blah, blah, blah, okay. So if you're one of the first three, I don't like using the word losers, but the first three without spots, $50 a break credit each. We're all winners here. We're all winners for even just joining the break.  So we'll do this at the end. Of course, we'll have to make you sweat it out a little bit. We're gonna do this break first. All right, but top seven, we'll get something in the randomizer at the end. Let's print this baby first and let's do the box break and then we'll see who wins spots and who wins money. There's the 2017. Up there, usually it's on the bottom. There's the final print out right there. Thanks everybody. And let's work through this break. I think vet commons aren't shipping, so all these guys probably aren't gonna go. These will go. Press proof. Dante Moncreve, Austin Hooper, Quincy Nuneau. All ship. Oh, this dominator. Does this mean Tom Brady's gonna win the Super Bowl tomorrow? This will go to the Patriots. This is gonna go to Chris Goad. We've got the rookies, Kenny G for the Lions, Mike got randomized the Lions, Barry Sanders, of course, these, these and Matthew Stafford. These of course will ship great iron Kings, Jordan Howard. These are inserts. Of course, these will ship fans of the game is Genevieve Morton, really a fan of the Rams. A six times sports illustrious swimsuit favorite, GQ Caramon, one of the FHM sexiest women of the world. Morton took a shot at predicting winners in the AFC. Fond of rags, a rich story. The South African native picked the Rams, so I guess for that game, she's a fan of the Rams. So that'll go to the Rams. There's Derrick Carr. That will ship. Production line, Saks will ship. This will ship. Curtis Samuel will ship, McKinley will ship, Taiwan Taylor, of course. These are rookies. These will ship. These will all ship. There you go. So nothing too earth shattering in that break. But the whole point of this is to see who's gonna win those, those spots, or maybe a little bit of break. So Raymond and the Cardinals and the Chad and the Washington football team, let's copy that entire column and everybody in between, of course. And let's see who the top seven are gonna be. After six times, two and a four, six. Good luck, one, two, three, four, five, and six, and final time. After six, now from seven on, or eight on down, my apologies, you're not, you're not in. No money. Sorry about that. Next three though, congrats to you, Simon, Jason, Bradley, money going your way. Top four? I think they're $300. $300 mixer spots. Chris, Bradley, Austin and Travis, there you go. Congrats to the top seven. There you have it. There you go. Pretty awesome. So Travis, Austin and Bradley, we're gonna put, let's just put, we'll just put Don three. So Donner is Hangerbox three next to your names. So that's how it'll show up in the list when we eventually do that mixer tomorrow. And then Bradley, Jason and Simon, check your email addresses. If you have multiple email addresses, check both. Check your spam folder. I'm gonna be sending this break credit to you shortly. There you go. Thanks for watching, everyone. I'm Joe for jasphyscasebreaks.com. I'll see you next time for the next one. Bye-bye.


t process at some time. So how do we expect a machine learning algorithm to do so? And are we really at explainable AI? Very interesting question. Yes, it's true that we don't necessarily understand how our brain work with every detail but I think we're doing fine. We are able to move around in our everyday life and one point is we have a lot of communication devices when we talk to each other. When I try to justify my decision, I don't have to tell you everything going on in my mind, right? I can't draw a logical reasoning, I can't just tell certain parts of the courses. That's also kind of my view with explainable AI in general. I have a pretty pragmatic view. I don't necessarily think we need to make every traces of the AI completely transparent. The point is how do we support people to achieve the necessary understanding for a given objective? And this can be achieved by post hoc explanation or example-based explanation. So many ways for us to achieve necessary understanding, we don't have to understand how exactly the brain work and we're doing fine. That's my answer. Thank you. All right, cool. Girmah, a leading question before I bounce to Celia. One of your final slides said good data, not big data. Can you expand on Andrew Yang's meaning? What does it mean by good data? Just sit on that for a few seconds. Celia, all right. The privacy question and how does that impact data availability? Which has been a theme from this because data availability then informs machine learning models then eventually down to the outcomes. So any comment at least of what you've experienced so far working with medical data? So I would say that something that we can leverage in healthcare is that there is already a system in place with IRBs and making sure that the data collections and the analysis that are being done follow an ethical structure, let's say, or guarantee data privacy issues to the patients that donate the data and so on. So I'm hopeful on the angle that healthcare already has all these infrastructure that machine learning needs to adapt and of course there are new rules that are gonna appear because it's not just for data, right? It's like you train the model and you share the weights of that model to somebody else and you have a proxy of data. Of course it's already processed and it's not for accessible data but it's still allowed to think about but I do believe that healthcare already has a good platform regarding privacy and data access for sure. Okay, cool. Great, thank you. Girmah, good data. Good question. Good is very subjective but I think the main point what's getting more popular lately is like more data-centric approach. Is that or maybe a few years ago there was this understanding that if you have collecting more data, if you have big data if you put like bigger frameworks and there's a tendency it could work better and better prediction performance and probably that's not the case specifically when we try to develop solutions that could be impactful. Before we jump even into model and analysis so on first we need to understand the data actually the ground truth, the representation across different subgroups should be something we need to investigate further before we jump into model. Do good is like maybe as I said subjective but it should be reflected enough to the problem you are trying to address the ground truth, the representation of it and so on. So this is in line with also some of the other work we do in auto stratification when understanding the data how it's related different how to come different groups before you jump into the model itself. So the focus and I think the take home message is given a data don't jump into the model analysis and designing big framework just rather look back, analyze and make sure that is the correct data useful or you could use to solve the problem you are trying to address. All right, cool. I think that now ends the preceded questions. There's a few more coming in a bit live and you guys will have to be on your feet. Vera, you mentioned a little bit in your talk a lot about the design thinking aspects. Do you have any more examples where design thinking has come in and actually has been then impacted downstream fairness? I know that's a little bit of your area of research but where outside perhaps of the surveys and stuff that you've done IBM is big on design thinking maybe just a few examples where design thinking has come in and the client has come back and said, oh, wow, I see now the advantage of that. Right, that's a very good question. Again, like the two link I recommended there is a design thinking framework that is also IBM design AI. I think one of the core principle in that set of design thinking framework which is broader than explainability. We have one that is running much longer that kind of get a team to start with thinking about where AI should come in if you have an existing problem, if you have existing product, there's no AI yet and then start from the scratch where the AI come in. I think one core idea of that part of framework that does really well is also to start from what are potential impact? What are potential harm? I think fairness is only one aspect of ethic. It's not just about, okay, we build this model, we need to de-bias the model but it's really important to start from the beginning should we build AI for this particular problem? Is AI making the right decision? It's classification, the right kind of setup. So I think that kind of design thinking framework, design thinking exercise is really good to have this broader question from the beginning, think about potential harm. So that's one example in that area. All right, cool, thank you for that. I am gonna see the question one more with Vera but give her some time to think about it. One of the popular questions on the ask a question interface here is why do small companies struggle working with AI? And I would basically say, what sort of advice from a design thinking point of view would you give, sorry, airplane flying above, what sort of advice would you give to a skeleton crew, perhaps an African startup that wants to use AI but you know that's going to be a problem and many of them fail. So what sort of advice from a design thinking point of view could you give them? And then while Vera is thinking about that, I have a question for the three other members on the panel here, all of us who live and work in Africa. One of the other popular questions is there is an infrastructure and a connectivity divide on the continent and how is that hurting AI progress on the continent and anything that can be done about it? So that was a question that came up about connectivity and infrastructure specifically in Africa and how that now may be inhibiting progress and then what can be done about it? I might jump in and give my take on this particular question while Celia and Girmah ask theirs. I've now been here for almost eight years and visiting since for about 15 and the connectivity divide is real but it is going to be changing whether that is through cellular technology or satellite-based technology. So that digital divide is closing. I think the question that comes from that divide is what are we doing right now as researchers with that time we've been bought because there's going to be another billion people coming online and they are not going to have the experiences and the literacy perhaps that we normally expect with internet use. What are we doing now as researchers to prepare for this last billion people coming on? I'm not going to argue that the connectivity problems aren't there but I assure you they are disappearing and are disappearing rapidly across the continent. And I think that actually makes a more pressing question for trustworthy AI and for data generating or for data gathering and how that's being used is we are going to have new internet users joining from the continent very soon and I think there's some really interesting trustworthy questions that come from that closing of the divide. So that's my take on that particular infrastructure question. Celia Germa, you've been both well versed on the continent. Any thoughts on that? Celia, you wanna go first? Sure. Connectivity-wise, I think there is, so cellular networks, I think at least here in Kenya are wide and you can find in any spot you will have 4G. But then having the access to that cellular data, that's another gap that needs to be think about. Not only connectivity but access to connectivity. Regarding infrastructure, I think I'm from Argentina. So I'm Latina and I did my PhD in National Research Center. So doing a PhD on machine learning with restricted hardware access, that's a few things that I know about. But something that I will think is that that is changing as Germa says, not big data, good data. I think there is a lot of trend of trying to move this model to smaller devices so people can actually reproduce their results. And not only a few big labs can actually run these huge networks and host these harmonious datasets. So I do believe