on it while she and I are live. Hey friends this is Dan and Stephanie Burke you're watching behind the scenes divine intimacy radio and we have an important show today and I suspect we're having some warfare it's interesting that spiritual warfare you know some people can say well that's just normal problems right but the enemy rides and and uh oh I don't know I would say amplifies normal problems you know so people look at it and say well you know that just happened out of natural normal when the enemy uses those things to disrupt you know and makes them worse does that make sense oh yeah yeah absolutely so we've we've seen it over and over again yeah in particular when there's a significant show that we're doing and we know something's going to have a tremendous impact yeah um well we'll we'll have all kinds of interference and exorcist priests will talk about it there's actually a particular prayer that we just prayed in hopes that this will clear up it's the umberlina prayer yeah and it's a prayer of perimeter and protection around technology and all the people you utilizing um these means of communication in order to do ministry yeah and so we've prayed that in hopes that this will clear up please jesus st michael the archangel yeah and our blessed mother that they'll know clear up and so we can communicate so the natural challenge we have this morning is we're we're trying to connect with father will conquer and he's actually in cambodia i he's written a great book that i think is important and that's why we're having issues it's funny because the person we're talking about uh want to talk about today is carlo acute cutis a millennial in paradise and of course his thing was technology and and delivering the truth of god and of the church through technology so our producers working with father conquer to try to resolve some things so we'll just cover some basic stuff before we jump into the show i will say before we talk about anything else i just want to put an alert out to grandparents and parents grandparents and parents um out there in the audience uh i don't know exactly how successful we're going to be today but we're we're going to do no matter what happens today we're going to do a full show on carlo acutus uh or more than one we'll see um and using this book carlo acutus a millennial in paradise published by sophia institute press and i want to you really have got to get this book into the hands of every one of your grandchildren of reading age you know and i don't know uh exactly what age group you've been a teacher and so you could probably tell stephanie but i'm guessing junior high and high school was probably the target but of course many many folks who were in their college years and even after our uh devotees of carlo acutus so as they should be yeah any any young adult of any kind but you know certainly high school middle school can read and absorb the material i think it would have a tremendous impact the younger the better yeah so yeah um so uh what yeah so the producer continues to work great awesome okay yeah the producer's going to continue to work so as we're ramping up here let me tell you about a few opportunities for your spiritual growth and um uh we'll um see what happens with uh how we get the show moving the we have uh courses at the avala institute avala-institute.org i want to tell you about introduction to saint elizabeth of the trinity yes and her uh novena started yesterday i think 31st yeah the 31st two days ago two days ago yep and if you want to get the novena to her which is not hard to eat it's not easy to it's not easy to find because uh it's more so it's more so it is out on the internet but we have a way yeah for folks to find it if they haven't been able to find it so they can catch up pay pray three days in a row right out at apostoliva.org apostoliva.org and it's on the blog page there's also a great post there for indulgences because of course we're you know this is a special day today uh for all souls and um we're plenary indulgences available for the dead and we're going to be at lunch today our the avala team in the apostoliva community will be out at a local graveyard praying the office for the dead so if you want to learn about those uh great resources head out to apostoliva.org but also in keeping with all of this good about saint elizabeth we have a course on her life and it's a school of spiritual formation course which is for busy people but done given by scholars and by people with uh who both have a sound spiritual lives and then of course the formation to be able to give these courses so julie ensler is teaching this and she she actually translated a book from italian to english on her life called um a life of soul or do you have that that book is right outside in the uh you don't have to get it but there's a book you can find on elizabeth of the trinity the producer's working hard trying to get uh father will on and so i was almost sent him out to get a book to get a life of praise to god is the name sorry saint elizabeth the trinity a life of praise to god is published by sophia institute press of course so the so the course will be an overview of her life and it's you know julie's fantastic um let me just check in with the producer and see yeah let's try to bring him back in and see if we're still getting that interference yeah it's still getting the interference it's buzzing pretty loud father can you say something back to us yeah we can't nothing so all right so what we'll do folks is go ahead and uh take him out off out of my hearing if you can um what we'll do uh i'm trying to think of what to do um but uh let's see why don't we because i don't really want to try to do the show without father will yeah i need to do i'd love to try to reschedule this yeah but uh here's what i'm going to tell you parents grandparents and then young folks listening to this show what we've decided because this book is so good our community we have something called firelight uh the apostolate via community and firelight is a young adult is 18 to 35 18 to 35 and if you want to be connected with some of the most on fire 18 18 to 35 year olds uh this is a great place to go a lot of folks in the church are feeling isolated we're younger uh in this age group and the church doesn't always cater well to this age group so what we've done is created an outreach to support them and it's not lightweight stuff uh the group is pretty i don't know intense could intense sound bad i don't want yeah i don't i don't know it's just authentic very committed you'll committed it's it's just real yeah it's not fluff yes not fluff that's a better one and it really takes into account that the 18 and 35 year olds you know have they have thoughts and ideas and and concerns and concerns and they need to understand their interior life and talk about their interior life and so as they get together and they encourage one another in prayer and study good things together and talk about important matters especially to their age group yeah you know they're growing in holiness you know something that our own pastor father jones said last night that i thought was so incredibly important he said you know saints come to to come and saints saints tend to travel in pairs or in groups in packs in packs you know i like the word packs um so you know if you want to be a saint you should draw two other people who are trying to become saints right is you can't do it on your own right and and the beauty of it is that really you know you can't be a saint being a saint is not something you do be a being a saint is something that you let happen to you interesting through the grace of God well how do you learn how to do that yeah because especially in our society we're too busy thinking you know striving and and um bootstrapping our way trying to bootstrap our way into heaven and that's difficult you know we needed the audio thing and i opened the communications it's sounding great okay well we got father back on we can look like we can maybe this sounds great we can probably do a show so to finish my thought was yeah any better for you can you confirm it yes it's it's way better father it's perfect we do but yeah i'm getting an answer it's from you and father can you hear us he's not hearing me he's not hearing us so anyway here's the point go out while while the producer's working on this go send your young folks to apostoleva.org absolutely i hear you sound and clear oh perfect father so we're yeah hold on one second father there's a huge delay so we'll have to be super patient with one another as to wait for the and then maybe for the show we can edit out the pauses we'll so i'll run long but anyway father we're telling folks about a group we're actually we have a young adults group and we're going to have them use carlo acutus a millennial in paradise starting in advent i just got the text from debony and uh and christin who run the group that they're going to be using this book uh to study and learn about carlo carlo acutus and how to become a saint and how to live a very holy life right right so and awesome so running in packs you want to be a saint you want kids to be a saint you want your young adults to be a saint find other people who are trying to be a saint and run with them and you help one another and you you give example to one another and you study great books like this one yeah in order to figure out what is this that god is asking of me and how do i cooperate with it and and plug into all these amazing graces that god's doing awesome awesome so let's do this with with father will father will what i want to try to do really quickly before we start the show is find out how long the delay is from when when we ask you a question and when you answer the question so i'm going to ask you a question and then i'm going to count the seconds and then and then hear the delay so i'm going to ask you what is the weather like in cambodia right now what time is it and what's the weather like in cambodia well it's 9 14 p.m and uh the temperature in cambodia is the same all year long it's 30 degrees celsius which is about 93 fahrenheit maybe and uh it's always really a wonderful weather it's like basically the same weather as cancun a lot of spring breakers that's great so so you do you okay wonderful so what we're going to do is it's about a five second delay jordan and so this is going to be the hardest show to edit ever but uh we're just have to deal with that but um we'll go ahead and start the show father and just consider uh as we ask you or as you say something it kind of count you know one one thousand two one thousand three one thousand four one thousand around five one thousand is when we'll we'll probably be able to hear one another we'll take the show a minute over for each segment jordan and see how that works okay okay so we'll go ahead and start in the name of the father and the son of the holy spirit amen welcome to divine intimacy radio this is dan and Stephanie Burke i didn't do that right let me start that over so how do we start this over jordan clear okay so i'll do this yes all right hold on father we're working on it stop watch okay okay and your mark get set go this is dan and Stephanie Burke welcome to divine intimacy radio your radio haven of rest your hermitage of the heart your monastery of the mind where we lift our hearts and minds to heaven to draw on the wisdom of the saints the teaching of the church to help us navigate challenges of this life and oh boy the challenges absolutely yeah absolutely yeah so uh tell us Stephanie who do we have as a guest today what are we doing what are we talking about we are about to interview a priest with the best name ever yes ever you know i think so uh we are going to interview father will conquer who was born in france on may 30th of 1989 oh my goodness you're a baby priest on the feast of st. jones of ark the son of an american mother and a french canadian father he was raised to appreciate different approaches to the spiritual life his mother became a charismatic catholic as an adult and his father was very traditional in the practice of his faith he was ordained a priest of the archdiocese of monaco and was sent by the parish foreign mission society to cambodia so welcome father it's so great to have you on today's show my pleasure father uh i think we would really uh enjoy your parents definitely and i consider ourselves trencha costals or tradizmatics so uh sounds like the mixture of your parents but uh what we're talking about today for our audience why we're entering interviewing father will conquer and he will conquer is we are interviewing him about a book that he brought to print through sophia's to press called carlo acutus a millennial in paradise and i have to say father this is a wonderful book very well written and it's so well written that we've decided that for advent for our firelight which is we have a young adult group that from 18 to 35 in our community of apostole via they're going to be studying the book and one of the great things about it is of course you've written it and with the to explore various aspects of his life like the history and then personal lessons about him and then you have other elements but then also question and answer or questions for consideration at the end of each chapter so they'll be going through that so thank you so much for writing such a great book the the question i want to ask you is why has carlos uh exploded in popularity carlo i'm sorry exploded in a popularity in our time is there a really good question and is some questions that are actually more difficult to answer there's a lot of great people out there and honestly closer to us and we think there are great models of holiness and we need to talk about them we need to talk about our cousins our nephews our fellow parishioners that are models for us and there are a lot but i think that today in our day and age the world is in deep need of great models you see that from the internet you see that basically through google statistics see what people are looking for people are looking for heroes people are thirsting for new models and carlo honestly answers a lot of unanswered questions of parents grandparents and young people today and our day in age day our big question is can we still be holy with all the new technologies that have come and disrupted our traditional lives can we still be holy with a cell phone in our hands and the answer is yes with carlo acutis so yeah so i just moved me so much and you know i was just so caught up by this this you know moment in your book where you say he's the first saint to enter heaven with a cell phone in his hand to have a computer to have sent emails done research on google and found answers to his questions there if you're you're right this is so incredibly important because i know of so many families that are going to i let my child have access to this do i not is this going to lead to their sanctity or is it going to wreck them forever so can you tell us a little more about his life and how how these elements played into his life i mean why is this part of his life so important you ask a question again i can see you counting the five seconds but i can't hear your question oh okay okay so i had mentioned about how he is used you stated that he is the you got to ask it again in a more natural way okay so um go ahead and start over and just read read the quote rethink it and just ask it directly okay so you stayed in your book that he is the first saint to have entered heaven with a cell phone in his hand to have used a computer sent emails done research on google and found answers to his questions there and i found that so important because there are so many families so many parents out there that are so conflicted about the use of modern technology um with their kids with their young adults tell us how these elements were important in the life of um of uh blessed carlo i think they were important i would not say they are the most important thing in his life i think carlo would have been a saint without his cell phone but i think carlo was a saint despite his cell phone i don't think his cell phone made him holy but i think he used his cell phone and made his cell phone and the world holier through that instrument so that i think is the most important thing in the past year and a half we've become more and more digitalized digitalized and you know we've made a greater use of um online communications for the better i believe but there is a way of thinking that those tools are going to make things easier maybe they are but we need to be careful that they are not good or bad in themselves they're in some ways neutral and carlo made them positive carlo made those neutral tools something that would bear food for the kingdom and that's what's so great about him you have to imagine when carlo starts the first website for one of the first parishes in melanne in the north of italy to have its own website for most people it's a waste of time when carlo goes on the internet to find out about eucharistic miracles his mother is like why don't you open an encyclopedia and so carlo is in a way a pioneer the problems we're having on your internet will laugh about it in five years because i'm sure all the good guys in the silicon valley are working hard to make this better and carlo the fascinating thing about him is that he did not wait for new progress to make things better he had this amazing tool and he decided to make it a tool for the gospel facebook instagram even tiktok can be used for the great good and that's what carlos did so many of us are in a very difficult situation because we see the negative fruit the negative outcome that can come from technology and carlo was aware of it carlo is not naive carlo is not just an innocent little boy he was aware of the challenges i mean when i was a teenager i had the same problem as him and honestly it was much more difficult today to protect yourself ten years ago i did not know what adblock was i did not know how to avoid you know having a nasty emails in my email box today i've avoided those problems because i know how to use the proper software but carlo the amazing thing is that even though he was in a very delicate situation he decided to make the most out of it today parents educated their children have the same challenge should parents allow their children to have a tiktok account should parents allow their children to be on instagram well in a very responsible way i think they can if they do it like carlo's parents did with education and responsibility what i love about carlo is that those tools were made virtuous because of the virtuous use carlo had of them a very concrete example would be how much time you spend on it carlo's mother who's become a good friend antonia told me that she had a very progressive in terms of like step-by-step revision of education towards new technology sometimes we see children like you know five years old just because we want to avoid them crying we give them tiktok and it's it's impressive to see them play on tiktok but it's also despairing because you see how much time they can spend on it and how you know their brain will be damaged by this abusive use of those tools but if we tell kids well how about you spend one hour a week on a cell phone as a child and then as you learn more to use to have a virtuous use of those technologies you can spend more time on it as the more virtuous you are the more spend the more time you can spend on it but obviously someone is a you know has a big problem with temptations even in my own life i see it when i start to fall into the temptation of the internet i reduce my time on internet because i realize my use is not longer virtuous and so carlo can teach us this kind of responsible use of new technologies especially to understand that the real criteria is virtue is our use of new technology virtuous or vicious and that's what we need to decide are we using those tools for the greater good or for the temptations of the flesh basically hmm powerful father word this is dan and stephanie Burke divine intimacy radio we're talking with father will conquer a great book that he's written carlo acutus a millennial in paradise it's such an important book we've decided as i've mentioned i just want to make sure that listeners if they're coming in at different times don't miss this opportunity grandparents parents for your kids we're going to be doing a study on this in a young adult group 18 to 35 out on apostoleva.org so head out there and sign up you really ought to pick up the book every grandparent every parent for junior high high school college post college you know 18 to 35 but even younger too really ought to read that is so inspiring and this this show i haven't seen stephanie cry much on a show and it's already gotten under her skin so but father tell us give us a little sketch or overview of carlo's life so that folks can understand why is it that the church has beatified him so quickly what does that mean where is he in the process in the city of us eat there and so after the translation of this in the semi did we okay so so we'll stop here so basically what i'm doing jordan is i'm just gonna you know record we're gonna record a lot you know so we'll uh so the i got to make sure that i didn't miss um you have a pencil you can throw at me or something okay all right i just got to remember okay so uh if he had if he got the question the complete question then he can go ahead and start over on here yeah i can hear you can you if you heard the question uh if you want to go ahead and start over and answer that question about his life and why he was beatified so quickly and what's that process where is he in the process is i'm moving here the problem is i'm outside can you guys hear me better yeah we can hear you that's any better okay just move places i just to find the light switch which is not an easy task kambodia i mean what are you gonna do yeah oh yeah yeah yeah yeah i can't believe this sorry i'm the problem is here i'm outside and so there's also another issue which is the cricket uh can you hear me better here yes yes father okay i've moved outside and so i hope you can understand you hear me well yeah i don't know where the light switches are but at least the the router is closer to me just wait a second i'm gonna try to find a switch okay that's beautiful as we hear all of creation singing behind you in kambodia right the blessings of technology are at play moment i am back no longer hopefully didn't just fall over so for our listeners we're talking to father will conquer uh wrote a book great book carlo acutus of millennial in paradise he's in kampodia so so uh well we may need to tap into it to be tans um wisdom on how to do interviews across the world like this uh we're using normal internet technology and i think there's some better ways but we're trying to make it work so uh father how you doing about a five second is that any better i am back okay yeah lights also okay lights are good so you sound good can you hear us okay sorry for this inter intermission oh don't worry about it don't worry about it we this is all a challenge and it's all good um can you hear us okay my yeah acoustic is perfect awesome awesome so do you remember the question enough or do you want me to to receive yes the question is why was carlo uh canonized so quickly you said yeah so i'm gonna i'll uh let me ask it again it'll be easier for the editor and then uh we'll have you answer so so father why uh tell us a little bit about carlo's life and maybe reveal to us why he was beatified so quickly and where he at where he is in the process so uh carlo acutus who uh died in 2006 so very recently was canonized just last year which can seem extremely fast compared to other saints if you compare for instance was jonah vark jonah vark died in the middle ages she was also a very young saint but she was not canonized until the 1920s so that took centuries even though she was a great model for all those years but it seems like today the church realizes the great need and the great thirst of the use for new models because of this disrupting factor that has entered all of our lives which is new technology how do we deal with new technology how do we again how do we can become holy with a cell phone in our hand and that is a big question as a priest and the confessional honestly there's only one new thing that has showed up through the 1990s and it comes through your cell phones and it comes through jealousy through materialism through lost and through all these temptations which existed before but which have taken proportions and forms shapes that were unknown a few years ago in carlo is the first who knows that and the great thing is that he was victorious in those battles that's what's so encouraging for us his mother and his mother though she's a lovely italian loving mama you know she loves her child but she's also very honest about his gifts and his failings and and uh and his you know his his you know his tendency to be a bit chubby when he was an old child or his tendency to be kind of a pugnacious in his battles and his debates with other people but his mother is also very impressed at the fact that you know she never had any issues with her child using new technology to do anything harmful to others or to himself and that's something which is for us is so inspiring because it shows us that we don't have to leave internet we don't have to opt out of facebook or instagram if we don't need to be there we don't you know ask christians we don't have to be on a tiktok but if ever we are there's a way to be on those apps in a way that is virtuous and that's what carlo is teaching us and that's why it's so urgent because of how much time we're spending on it of how many million billions of people are using those tools in a very unfruitful way and i think that's what's so beautiful about him in a way you know jonah bark taught us an example that was worse for all of centuries and in the 1920s when she was canonized she taught us that the love of your country could be virtuous and it did not have to be uh you know hate of other people jonah bark is a french saint and she was canonized in the period where nationalism was a temptation but she was canonized as a way of showing that you could give your life for your country in a virtuous way and not necessarily in a way to destructed europe for carlo today our big problem is not nationalism that's not the big problem today the big problem today in what's destructing the church is the vicious sinful use of new technologies i mean there's scandals out there i don't want to go around the scandals that you had in america recently with the bishops conference but there's candles going out there and it goes for the highest level to the lowest levels parents are concerned about it priests are concerned about it in the confessional it's worrying to see how families are being destructed by the use of computers cell phones businesses are being destructed because of an unhealthy unethical use of new technologies and so we need to think about it and we need to think are we ready to consider that our christian life takes in all the dimensions of our life from our rising to our setting and that means all these long hours that we spend behind screens need to be hours spent in the presence of the lord and we do not we should not put those screens as a wall between us and god but more at the window into heaven and that's what carlo did for us through his incredible work on the eucharistic miracles in which his screen became a window into heaven beautiful beautifully stated father can you tell us a little bit about the in terms of his beatification is he uh is he fully canonized as a saint now or is he still in that process and what did that process look like for him not yet you know uh beatification if i uh direct canonization happens only for martyrs and so carlo is not a martyr some people i mentioned that maybe later how he lived his life as a martyr for me it's very important because i'm a part of a society which is nicknamed the society of martyrs the parents the paris french mission society was nicknamed the society of martyrs so for me it's very important to understand how carlo lived his life as a witness as a martyr as i would call it translucent martyr i'll talk about that later if you want but uh carlo was beatified according to the regular process it was not like santo subito as some some people would have said there's this regular process that is you know carried by a diocese the diocese of a cc in particular carried to roam and there's a whole process with the congregation of saints there's a devil's advocate there's someone out there saying that carlo is not really as good as we think he might be and there's a whole process and it was very challenging why because it's one of the rare times in the history of mankind where the parents of the person beatified are still living the grandmother as a person beatified it's still living how unbelievable is that just imagine if your children become canonized for all the parents out there it's a great sign of hope i believe because it shows us how much we should have hope and vision for our own children i love carlo's parents i love them like my own parents and i love how they really respect and live in all at what god did in the life of their eldest son and so means it's something really beautiful and that's why i think today it can be a good model for the church because and for the world at large because we need to believe that holiness is for the 21st millennium it's not something that we need to look back at only in the saints of the past which are great examples also but it's something we need to look at in the future yesterday we celebrated the feast of all saints and it's it has to become our own feast carlo is not a new idol for the youth but an invitation for all of them to take up that call and become holy father stepping out of having so much fun listening to you for those watching us live stream when you said the parents of the of the child who become a saint are still alive and the grandparents we both looked over at jordan who's our producer who's who's who's uh which is putting pressure on him but he's actually doing very well as he's uh uh revert to the faith and and turning his life in a great direction i know he's going to love this book when he picks it up but stephanie you've got a question yeah i i do um and just this idea of of the struggles of our young people with the internet and even adults because this doesn't just apply to uh students or young people it applies all the way to the end everybody has has come across the temptations and the difficulties with the internet but one of the things that you mentioned is that that he had a particular way that he dealt with friends who were sexually promiscuous what did he do how did he handle it how did he handle this part of the temptations of the internet that are so pervasive i'm going to say something that's not going to be very popular on your show i'm going to say he was intolerant it's very popular to be tolerant today but carlo was intolerant to sin there's a very very famous dominican called seven arola either your followers can look him up on wikipedia and honestly there's a like people like san filet nary and other great saints of the catholic church had a great admiration for the zeal the apostolic zeal of seven arola and carlo in some way is a 21st century sonarola and it's something we need today it says zeal for the salvation of souls and the realization of the consequences of oral sin on spiritual warfare and carlo was aware of that today it's kind of cool to be like oh it's okay i'll be tolerant tolerance is for good it's for a variety of opinions which are all good i tolerate people you know i love blue but i'm okay with people who love red and that's tolerant because it's okay i mean there's nothing bad about loving red but there's something wrong about you know chasing girls in the pool and it's not okay and carlo who was a big swimmer he loved going to the swimming pool would run after the guys who would whistle after the girls and you know kind of call them names and be like what do you think you're doing who does that and he got really almost angry but like jesus was angry when the sacredness of the temple was vandalized was stained and it's in the same way that's what happens when we stain the temple that is our body or the body of others and that's what carlo would really say unbelievable his awareness of our body being the temple of the lord he was aware of that through receiving the holy eucharist which helped him realize that our bodies was the living timbre knuckle of the presence of the lord but he also realized that and how we needed to have more respect for each other's bodies and especially as he grew into puberty and realized the attraction that we could have for each other in a way that was not always holy and that's what it's really beautiful about him i loved how he was intolerant for sin i love his intolerance for sin i wish i had it i find myself to be so complacent with my own parishioners was my own soul when i you know intended by sin carlo had this radicality this fire for the love of god which we need to have and we need to ask him for that grace for his intercession to grow in a zeal for this holiness of our soul and the souls of our neighbors and that's what he had and it was the presence that you know he had the courage of not being very popular and nevertheless he was you know very sociable and very friendly and people appreciated that i think today people are looking for spiritual warriors like him and i think we can learn from him in this radicality young people should not be afraid of fighting for their purity young girls young boys should not be afraid in a culture that portrays them as being stuck ups or i don't know what i don't know what the word is in in english today i mean i haven't been in america for a while i don't know what they call them today but i was called a stuck up when i was a kid because i you know i was telling them about chastity and and waiting for marriage and stuff like that carlo did that he was not afraid of him and today it's won him an incredible popularity it's made him probably one of the most popular kids teenagers online after justin beaver maybe i'm not too sure yeah father you know you said something that's really interesting to me you don't have to worry about uh tolerance issues on this show we're pretty direct and clear about teachings of faith but yeah tolerance has become a sin i think in our culture because it's a it's a false it's a it's mockery of charity because true love of course doesn't allow people to do things that are destructive or true love seeks the best for the other even if we're uncomfortable so it doesn't create this false facade of oh i accept you as you are and that's it yes we should accept people as we are but we're always as they are but we're always pointing them to what god is calling them to be if you don't have both of those together you end up in the sin of intolerance if you have them together you end up in the virtue of true love which is what you're doing is wrong and destructive i love you and i want to be friends with you i want to be close with you but if we are to be friends we need to walk toward god together because there's no other reason to live and i think what you're saying is carlo had this deep fire that the ultimate and most important reality in our lives is our is our eternal destiny of the the salvation of our souls the salvation of other souls i mean when i went out on his website this morning before the show just to prepare i was blown away honestly i had seen it in the past little snippets but i started to follow all the links carloacutus.com and i was looking at all the apparition sites all the things about purgatory and the saints and angels and demons wow was this kid busy and how much he accomplished at such a young age but uh as you say his passion or his fire was the recognition that purgatory the life after this life you know miracles the truth about the eucharist that was reality and everyone should be drawn to that reality and we should not ever hesitate and and i'll say this i'll go so far as this folks if you're listening and you are tolerating or just looking on as people are going to hell and you think that's christian it's actually the opposite of christian it's wrong and sinful so i just want to agree with you father very very strongly i know stefanie has a question for you yes um something that's really uh close to my heart and all of what dan said was incredibly important um so but this you know you talk about how he was so fervent that could have uh cost him socially in many ways right and so you mentioned that he had um that he had unusual loneliness how did he deal with it because when you step out and in radical uh fervency for christ sometimes you can find yourself standing by yourself often yeah often yeah so how did he deal with uh unusual loneliness so um i'll start with uh with a small uh rebuttal of what was said just before so carlo only did one uh exhibition on the eucharistic miracles okay other spirit with the association of friends of carlo uh picked up on his idea of uh making things simple to understand clear nicely presented and they developed a series of other uh kind of exhibitions in the spirit of carlo wonderful just makes things clear to answer your question about loneliness it's a really good question carlo is also very typical because i think he's one of the rare only child to be beatified i mean the most famous only child who's a saint is jesus christ of course but otherwise if you look in history i've had a hard time finding other examples because usually you know christian families you know usually have you know a few children and that's usually what happens it's a usual model but carlo who after his death would uh would have a younger brother and a younger sister grew up as only as an only child and especially he grew up in a very privileged family which can sometimes lead you to leave behind big walls because you know you realize how privileged you are your parents might be overprotective and uh i mean his parents i mean his mother his father and knowledge they're overprotectiveness and were actually inspired how carlo would break those walls they would he would break the walls of social respect he would break the walls of social standards he would break the walls of you know that's how you should do that's what you should do and if for instance his mother was extremely uh uh disturbed to see how you know he would be friends with the doorkeepers with the guys on the street with the poor guys in school who didn't have any friends and carlo what's amazing about him is that often our loneliness can lead us to even more loneliness as we pity our own selves but carlo had i think misericordes sucut pater no he had a merciful father like his merciful father and he lived that mercy for other people and instead of having pity for his own self he had pity for the poor and the needy around him i am really appreciative of that in the life of carlo because it's true when you look at him as a small child he is someone he resembles a bit tereza of lisio and you know her kind of a capricious character carlo was a bit of a titione they say in italian which means a little chubby little kid and you can see someone who you know who was a bit overprivileged and enjoying his chocolate and his cookies and and his pastel pesto and whatever you have it you know and uh as life goes on he kind of leaves that overweight that he used to have in a way that he gives it to the others i like that and i like to see the spiritual evolution of a little child like tereza of lisio who enters the carmel at age 14 but when you look at the spiritual evolution of that little girl from you know her you know her kind of a nasty character as a little child to her consecration at age 14 in the carmel it's unbelievable for carlo in some ways there is this conversion from the little chubby little child you know who's a bit gluttonous you know he has gluttony the scent of gluttony not sure if that's a word in english gluttony yeah and uh so it's very beautiful to see how he went from that scent to this openness to others from feeding his own body to uh serving the souls of others i like that and so i think that's how he did it instead of having too much pity for his own self he's starting to appreciating the loneliness of others the best example in the living example is the uh how do you call him the majordome in french in english you would say uh the yeah the best nor the how do you in english the butler his parents butler it's kind of an old word you don't really use that word anymore it sounds like english the british english you know butler not too sure what word you were using in english but uh it's kind of the man who does everything in his parents house and he's uh his name is rajesh and he's also a good friend of mine now i really like him we really got along well and i really appreciated the fact that he read my book and he told me it's exactly how i feel about carlo it's this you know you wrote about me and you you put words on my feelings and what i like about rajesh is that he he felt like he was a loser he was from the highest caste of the indian society he had grown up in a an island called maritius and then he went to study in india he was kind of a cool guy he's a good looking man he's very funny and he comes to it to idly and the north of idly that say was as welcoming as he had imagined and he really suffered from that it was difficult for him and especially you know not only the loneliness from being in another country but not having so many friends and carlo saw that carlo and knowledge is no loneliness and became his best friend and through that friendship rajesh was evangelized and rajesh became christian not only rajesh but also a friend of rajesh another indian man who became baptized through that friendship and that's what i love about carlo when we feel loneliness we need to ask the grace of god to have more mercy more uh consideration for the greater loneliness of those who are as lonely as they are because they don't know of the presence of god in their life and carlo knew that carlo knew that he could not be lonely because he had jesus as his best friend carlo attended the holy mass every day every day he saw his best friend so many people don't even have a best friend so many people maybe have a best friend but don't really see them that often carlo saw his best friend every day as he attended the holy eucharist and he shared that friendship with others who did not yet know this joyful presence of having a best friend here on earth and for eternity so that's what carlo can teach us i think and that's how he overcame his natural loneliness as an only child as a rather privileged child and also as a i think over gifted child in some ways because you know you see that we call it asperger syndrome so i think it's a real syndrome and i think it's something that you know children need to be helped and what they what they struggle with is kind of struggling with some having so much talent but at the same time there's also a spiritual answer to to the syndrome and i think carlo can be a bit of a good example for us in some ways because he shows us that the natural loneliness which we all suffer from in very different ways can be overcome by an excess of charity and altruism thank you father that's so really beautiful and i think what what it brings to mind and kind of bring it back full circle is that he's such an example for us to to all of our young people to all of the adults because this prevalence of the internet of all these of all this technology has really led us to a society of very lonely people we're all lonely we're we're all looking kind of out into the world and we think why don't i have that those looks that life why don't i go on those vacations why doesn't my house look like southern living you know we look at all that out there and it tends to take us out of ourselves into the world the flash the enemy all the temptations all the things that tell us that we are not sufficient that we are alone that we're broken and and that we're hopeless and rather it should his example helps us to understand that this this feeling of loneliness of being alone has one answer and that's christ jesus is our best friend he is our best friend he's the answer he's the faith he's the hope the life the truth he's everything and that he can help and bring all of this disorder and this loneliness to a place of goodness and peace and healing and help us understand that even those things that we struggle with like carla with his gluttony with some other things that he struggled with that those come those temptations come to us in order to help us to go outside of ourselves and love as jesus loves amen you know to become who we're called to be and to be a light in this present darkness so what a beautiful example he is but we're gonna have to wrap up the show and i i feel bad about doing that because father will conquer with us of course it wrote the book a millennial in paradise which is a great book about carlo acutus and is so articulate about the faith and it's been a beautiful time even though it's been challenging with technology but we're grateful that you're with us i want to just shout out again to young adults parents grandparents if you are lonely if you are struggling out in the world oh gosh it gets it gets to me because you know i've been there and uh wow over uh emotion hit me pretty hard there but i'm but what i want to say is if that's you or if that's one of your kids or somebody that you know uh have them connect with apostoleva.org we have a firelight group young adults if you want to know carlo acutus better you want to read this great book learn of the wisdom that father will is bringing forward about his life head out to apostoleva.org join that build a profile and then join the firelight group for those that are 18 to 35 18 to 35 we don't allow anyone older sorry or younger so i know you're gonna try if you're in the but you can get the book at ewtn's religious catalog or spiritualdirection.com pull it slash shop and with that we're gonna wrap up okay okay and i'll add one last thing yeah you know for catholic teachers out there i would do these studies with your kids yeah um yeah i used to be in catholic education this would be a great book to study to add into your curriculum and your Catholic schools so until next time may the God of peace make you perfect in holiness may he preserve you whole and entire spirit soul and body irreproachable at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ amen listed Carlo acutus pray for us well father this show really wrecked me me too


For the next hour on BBC World News, we're live from Davos in Switzerland for a special BBC World debate. And we're talking about a subject much on the minds of those here. Inequality. After the financial crisis of 2008, many people hoped a more equal world would emerge that we might see a fresh start, reform of the banks and narrowing of the gap between rich and poor. But it hasn't quite gone to that plan. The richest 1% in the world not only have lots of power, but are said to still own nearly half the world's wealth. So, today we're asking, a richer world but for whom? I'm joined by our panellists, two leading policymakers, Christine Lagarde from the International Monetary Fund and Mark Carney, Governor of the Bank of England. We're also joined by two chief executives of companies with branches all around the globe, Sir Martin Sorrell and Klaus Kleinfeldt. And also Robert Schiller, economics Nobel Prize winner and from Oxfam International, Winnie Biennima. But first, the latest news from David Eads in London. Two-minute news summary, then we're back. OK. I can't hear David Eads. You're just going to say Q. But it is David Eads, I'm hoping. David, thank you. Well, welcome back to Davos. I'm Evan Davis. We're live for the next hour to ask whether we're all in it together at a crucial time for the world economy. Do the rich deserve their riches? Would any kind of reform improve things? And technology? Is it entrenching economic power or dispersing it? Lots to talk about. Joining me here at the annual meeting of the World Economic Forum in Davos. First, two policymakers who are both publicly accountable. Christine Lagarde, who's managing director of the International Monetary Fund. Mark Carney, Governor of the Bank of England. Other panellists include Martin Sorrell, who's Chief Executive of the Global Advertising Group, WPP. Winnie Bienyema, Executive Director at Oxfam International. Klaus Kleinfeldt, the Chief Executive of Alcoa, a global company in metals, technology, engineering and manufacturing. And Robert Schiller, who's Professor of Economics at Yale University and a Nobel Prize co-lorate in economics. Ladies and gentlemen, let's welcome our panel. Well, you can tell we have a large audience here with us of business, political and civil society leaders. We'll be taking comments as we talk from Twitter. So tweet your thoughts, whether you're in the room or out there, use the hashtag BBC World Debate. Now first, let's just get out of Davos because we went onto the streets of India, Spain, Brazil and the UK to ask people out there what they feel about the gap between rich and poor. Here's what they told us. I live well in my country, but I realise that there is a lot of inequality and they will have to improve the opportunity to all. There's some people scraping at one end trying to just make a living and no more. And other people that have enough money to go and buy paintings at half a million pounds, it's not fair. We all can see that rich are going to be more rich and poor are getting more poor. It is very frustrating. Obviously, we share the same planet, we share the same city, the same country, so equality should come with the kind of mentality, the kind of tradition, the kind of culture you're sharing, not with what area you put up in or what car you own. Inequality is raising because of two things, unemployment basically, a huge amount of people unemployed and the ones who have the opportunity to get employed, they have ridiculously low wages. I think it's mainly the government, but I think it's also businesses too, rather than kind of not looking into this old boys' club of all the kind of elite people have all the opportunities. It's like actually opening it out to a much wider field. Also, the banks have not been transparent. Probably the law regulations were not helping and governments definitely, and they've stolen a lot from the people. Look at all these candles that we can hear about. If only this money could be referred to, actual education, infrastructure, even transportation is a problem because kids can get to school, they can get to work. I think the government could levy the taxes a little bit better. The rich should be taxed a bit more and a bit of that should go to help the poor people who need it. Well, some public views there, raising many issues we'll get to in the next hour. And I think showing this is truly a world debate. Well, let's get a response first from two important policymakers. I think it's fair to say neither has a background that makes them cheerleaders for a revolution, but both have expressed some concerns with the direction the world has been taking. Christine Lagarde, let me start with you, because the International Monetary Fund used to be thought of as a giant force for conservatism. And then last year, a bombshell, it published a report, a working paper, that said lower net inequality, that is more equality, is robustly correlated with faster and more durable growth, that you get more growth in a more equal society. It's a big change, right? Yes, it is a big change, and I'll never forget the skepticism that I met when two years ago, after having given a speech here, where I raised the issue of inequality and climate change. Some of my economists and quite a few of my board members around the table said, this is not mainstream, you know. This is not core business for the IMF. And I have to say that now it is mainstream. And I was very pleased to see that many of the IMF economists actually embraced the project and produced several pieces of analytical research. And if I may, I would like to just mention three points that they made. Number one, what you just said, that is excessive inequality is not conducive to sustainable growth, strong correlation. Number two, they're finding that distribution per se matters. In other words, if you increase the income share of the poorest, you get a multiplying effect that you do not get if you increase the income share of the richest. So it is good for the economy. It is good for growth. There is a multiplying effect that you find in that dimension. Third factor, redistribution policies are not counterproductive for growth. And that was not conventional wisdom. It was generally accepted to the contrary that redistribution policy was not necessarily good for growth. So on these three fronts, they're saying, inequality is not good for growth. Inequality, in my view, is not good for women because that's a particular inequality that I'm especially concerned about, the gender inequality. Just give us what's underlying that. What is the reason why very unequal societies can damage their own economic prospects? Well, you see the correlation between sustainable growth on the one hand and high and increasing inequality. But why? Well, it's a factor of this multiplying effect that I have mentioned. It's a factor of people not being integrated into society. And it's a factor, as one of the persons on your little film said, jobs, employment are critical points to really improve upon. We'll get plenty of time to follow up all of this. Mark Carney, Governor of the Bank of England. Now, you warned in a speech last year. It's a pretty interesting line, actually. Just as any revolution eats its children, unchecked market fundamentalism can devour the social capital essential for the long-term dynamism of capitalism itself. Just elaborate on that. Well, I think one of the things that's happened is that we went through a period in the run-up to the crisis where belief in market and market solutions extended to most aspects of not just economic and financial policy, but many aspects of public policy. So the marketization, if you will, of social policy, public policy. What was lost, and there was a lot of good in that, but what was lost in that was the importance of social capital. And this is something, this is not new. We need to recall the importance of social capital. Adam Smith to Hayek, to others, understood the importance of a shared set of beliefs and a sense of trust and shared value in the system. We'd undervalued that. It was massed for a period of time. I know you're going to talk about globalization and technology later, but globalization and technology magnify market distributions. And that was massed for a period of time through some good financial innovation but also some misguided financial innovation, which allowed consumption to continue to grow, even though income didn't grow in pace. Robert Schiller drew attention to most of this. And the point being that in the words of one of my colleagues at the Bank of England, it was a policy of let them eat credit for a period that massed these differences. So we're in a situation where we've had to start to reinvest in that social capital to maintain the dynamism of capitalism but to rebuild the trust in the system and reorient towards a longer-term perspective. And hopefully we'll come to some of the measures. OK, well, that's a very important statement of the kind of shift in the intellectual climate over the last few years. Well, we're dividing this debate into three sections. I'll introduce them as we go along. But to start off, I want us to talk about the rich, that 1% that own maybe half of global wealth or even more importantly, that 0.1% who've done so well in recent decade. And for this first section, I want us to ask, what are the rich ever done for us? Ask yourself, do you think they put more into society or take more out? Are they producers or predators? Obviously, your view on this will determine your view of inequality to some extent. Here, first of all, are two voices from business. Capitalism better than any other system enables people, as Lincoln put it, to improve their lot in life. People don't mind that the late Steve Jobs got rich or that Bill Gates has tens of billions of dollars. What people want is the opportunity, as Lincoln put it, to improve their lot in life. They have the opportunity to move ahead. Free markets are allowed to operate with sound money, sensible low taxes, sensible regulation. People do move up. I think it's very important in all the debate about inequality that we do not demonize the wealth creators, do not criticize them relentlessly as fat cats or as the plutocrats, because I think that a society that demonizes capitalism and wealth creation is doomed to a lack of investment and a leakage of talent and will suffer the economic consequences of such an attitude. So, two pro-rich views there. And two propositions underlie the views we've just heard. First, that the rich, that they do good to the world. And second, that they need to be rewarded for that. Or they may not do that good. Let's focus on those ideas, essentially, whether the rich give us value or not. Winnie, B&M, I want to come to you on this. Do you essentially see that 0.1% and Oxfam have made quite a lot about their wealth? Do you see them as producers or predators? Of course they are producers of wealth. But the issue is about political capture, that extreme wealth takes over the process of public decision-making. The rules of the market and the rules that govern society become skewed in favor of the extremely wealthy. And that's why you get unchecked and controllable rise of inequality. Let me give you an example. In the United States alone, the financial lobbyists spent $400 million in 2013 lobbying, influencing political and economic decision-making. They spent $571 million in campaign contributions in the 2012 election. Here in the EU, $150 million spent in lobbying the European governments and the European Union. This is about shaping the rules of the market in their favor. In an ideal situation, we would have all people shaping the way the economy is governed and society is governed. That is the problem. That extreme wealth results in political capture and then from there on, public decision-making is in the interest of the wealthy. So wealth entrenched wealth, even if there's no merit to it. So Martin, sorry. I just want to get a little bit more balance into the debate. I don't know whether Steve Orbs is balanced or not, but we have that. Luke has more balance. So I make no apology for having started the company 30 years ago with two people and having 179,000 people in 111 countries and investing in human capital each year to the tune of at least $12 billion a year. So I make no apology for that whatsoever. The other thing I want to say is this. Over the last 40 or 50 years, we have seen significant improvements in the number of people that have been taken out of poverty, in the number of people that have been put into the middle class, and people use that phrase and I find it somewhat objectionable how it is used and the definitions, whether you look at the World Bank or you look at others, whatever the definitions are, certainly billions of people in emerging markets, what we call fast growth in markets, are in that class and have come into that class. Genia coefficients have improved significantly since 1960. These are the measures of inequality. Since 2000, they've gone backwards marginally, but they have significantly improved. And finally, it's not well publicised, even by organisations such as Oxfam, for whom we work, right? But in the Lancet, for example, in the last 30 days it would be very interesting to talk about the number of diseases and reduction in diseases and reduction in the years of lives lost, which has been very significant, again in the last 40 or 50 years. So we have made improvements. The question is, have we made sufficient improvements? There are two things I just want to say finally. One is the World Economic Forum, which Sam's done some very interesting work on what needs to be done in terms of categories to improve equality. By the way, Christine, it is not proven that equality, the reverse of what you said is true, that equality drives sustainable growth, e.g. Venezuela. The second thing is, in terms of employment in the private sector, we are in a low growth trap. Companies are not increasing employment. We've talked about this before, Mark. There's a slow growth economy. There's too much focus on cost, not enough focus on expansion and growth. I take that. There's $7 trillion to win his point. Sitting on balance sheets and investing. Winnie, quick reply to Martin. Yes. No, honestly, since the financial crisis, we're seeing rising inequality. The gap between the rich and the poor is widening very fast. Last year, we issued a report, Oxfam issued a report that said that 85 richest people in the world own as much wealth as the bottom 50%. This year, the figure has come down to 80%. The rate of growing inequality is high. Winnie, that's because the bottom, the bottom, very large number of people own nothing at all. People who even have a tiny bit of wealth have more than the bottom 27. That's human capital. That's another thing. We know the reasons. We know that many wealthy companies and individuals are not paying their fair share of taxes. There's a global tax system that's leaking. We need to fix that. I want to go back to our two chief executives here, because Winnie made a very important point, and we've had it on Facebook too, Ian Charlton from Australia. The rich make the rules. He says they pay less tax. So we need to get rid of them. It's a sentiment plenty of people have. I don't know the class I'm in. One of the interesting areas... I wish we did. One of the interesting areas where inequality that has driven some inequality in developed countries has been growing chief executive salary. Now, isn't this an area where the rich make the rules and then pay themselves a lot? So, Klaus, I want to ask you a very specific question. You've got a great job, right? Would you do that job for half as much? I don't know. I never intended to in my life to become a CEO. I mean, my life got me there and apparently people thought I'm good at that. But can I actually go back? Because I got some numbers here. No, because I think it's important that we are not throwing out the baby with a bathtub. Because I think we are kind of tempted to debate it in the current context. In terms of inequality, I think we have to analyze the data and the facts. And I looked it up for this debate. What Martin just said, the global emergence of poverty. I mean, people living in poverty, the share of the world population living in poverty. 1820, 94% have been living in poverty. 1950, 72%. 2011, which is the last number I could get hold of. 14.5%, right? 14.5% were dollars purchasing power parity. In 1820, 2% of the world's population were in that category. In 1950, 23%. In 2010, 54%. I do want to just talk about a recent phenomenon. And I think we have to be careful to analyze it as a recent phenomenon. And I think we have to stratify it with a time frame of a recency and think what happened there. And I think this is this wealth creation that we have been generating through basic industrialization and globalization. And the second thing is, it's very different. We have to be careful that the debate is not focused just on the West, but also on the rest. Because I think we're seeing very different phenomena. Also, when you talk about measures, what's happening in the Western world and what's happening in the rest of the world? I would answer, pay for performance. Come back to the CEO question. Pay for performance. Robert Schiller. I do want to bring Robert Schiller in this case. Nobel Prize winning economist. Comment on what you've heard so far, the proposition. The inequality problem has been around for millennia. And there have been efforts to deal with it. Tithing is in both the Muslim and Christian religions. There's a lot of history to this. It's a complicated problem. I'm hearing it different sides here. I'm saying, the rich can dominate and they can be obnoxious sometimes in defending their interests. On the other hand, we have to give incentives to... And you are, Klaus, are exactly right. The capitalist... You're not the first person to make this observation. It's known all over the world. That's why a lot of formerly communist countries are embracing market solutions. And I assume you agree. And basically... So it's a subtle problem that we have of trying to create rules and institutions that... And I bet you do it for half the money, by the way. See, this is the point. I think you do it. I wouldn't necessarily place that back. Come back. Come back to China. China is state-directed capitalism. The Chinese, ironically, paradoxically, have chosen a system each in 1985 to stimulate the growth in the middle class through state-directed capitalism. So let me just bring Mark Kearney. I mean, you work for Goldman Sachs and we're handsomely paid there, I'm sure. What is... Do we pay? Is there a feature of the world that means that we're more keen to cut costs for people at the bottom of the spectrum than people at the top of the spectrum?  Okay, so I think we should recognize that. Let me have a couple of points. First, this point about reduction in poverty, absolutely essential, hugely important, but that is a global... That is a process of globalization and its convergence across countries. That's good news. In virtually every country, including those countries that are growing, those big emerging markets, inequality is increasing and increasing quite dramatically. So this issue is an issue. It's as much an issue in China as it is in the UK, for example. And in terms of these questions around the structure of wages and where opportunity is found to reduce costs, the returns to skills are magnified in a globalized economy. Steve Jobs' brilliance is applied globally, as opposed to locally. And that changes the returns and those who work within the skilled jobs there. And so we recognize those dynamics. We should just recognize those dynamics. There's nothing wrong with those dynamics. But then the question comes and the common theme of your interviews on the street is about equality of opportunity or opportunity for all when one man put it. And so it's how this structure and as the system evolves do you maintain that equality of opportunity? Christine Winnie made a stronger point though which she was saying that the rich set the rules implying that they are somehow over rewarding themselves by setting the rules for what they had delivered. Now do you believe that or not? You have different forces here. And I think the answer will depend on whether you're in a democratic environment where people have a voice, have a vote and where it is counterbalanced by this excessive power of conviction that is not in the ballot box but in the wallet. So all these has to be looked at on a per democracy or per other regime basis. That's one. Second I confirm what I said Martin. I didn't say that equality is conducive to growth. I said excessive inequality is not good for sustainable growth. That's what our research indicates. But I think we should also look at what can be done about it because there has been a worsening of the situation particularly since the financial crisis. We have to look at why that is. We're going to do that in a minute. If I can just say why that is you have had a massive increase of wealth caused by an increase of the asset prices under the current circumstances. So I think we have to distinguish between the income disparity, the wealth disparity and for each of those two we need to think about what can be done about it in order to reduce the excessive inequality that hamper growth, that hamper jobs and that prevent women from accessing the economy. Just to finish this section, Winnie, I want to ask you the question of the Steve Jobs question. If all that 0.1% were kind of Steve Jobs characters, well Steve Jobs was more than the top 1%, if they were all Steve Jobs type people, would you feel any problem with global inequality and that bus load of people who own as much as half the world? When we put out these statistics we are trying to show a trend. We are not trying to say that this 1% or 0.1% are the bad guys to focus on. This is not about who flew in here on a private jet and who did not. What we are talking about is that the very wealthy all over the world can buy for themselves longer healthier, happier lives while poor people at the bottom are trapped and their children are trapped in poverty for generations. If you take the level of inequality as it exists now in the United States, for example a child born in a poor family will become a poor adult. So the American dream is just that, a dream. It's not true because of the level of extreme inequality. So what we are talking about here is that there are solutions and we want to focus on those solutions the things that have worked that reduce economic inequality. We are going to do that now. What we have seen so far is that it's quite hard to trap people into binary position on the value of the rich. But I do just want to do a show of hands in this audience which could probably not be less typical of the world outside. I do want to just get the sort of the mood of the meeting. Let's just do a little show of hands of whether you think that the top 0.1% contributors to the world they are kind of, if you like, the Steve Jobs types or whether they are net extractors. They are very clever people who invent spurious financial products and take out very high salaries. How many of you here would say they are net contributors? How many of you would say they are net extractors of value? I would say that was about nine, eight to one in favour of the contributors. So the mood of this meeting that they are net contributors. Well, let's move on. Everyone has been saying we need to talk about what we do about it. And as we've heard, for all the gloom about inequality, global capitalism has been doing something right. It has been lifting people out of poverty. According to the World Bank, the proportion of the world living below $1.25 a day has gone from 36% back in 1990 to 15% today. So you might ask, do we need to reform that system? Well, we asked one, Laureates of the Nobel Peace Prize, Muhammad Yunus. He's the man credited with inventing microcredit. Why we should care about reform. Nothing has changed before the 2008 crisis and after the 2008 crisis. We only took time to get back to the same old thing that we left behind in 2008. So we are back in pre-2008. Institution didn't change. Policies didn't change. Nothing has changed. That's a sad thing because we thought this financial crisis will teach us a lesson that we have to redo things. We didn't redo things. We are talking about banking system, financial system is very much biased towards rich people. So as a result of the way human being has been interpreted in the economic theory, economic structure that we built around us became a sucking machine.  So that's unacceptable and it will get worse. It will not get better.  The whole society will explode at one time seeing what has happened. All the wealth of a nation, any nation will be in the hands of a few people and other people will be just lying there trying to struggle for make ends meet. That's not something we have learned from 2008. So now we have to go back and redesign the system. There's no better way than doing that. Views of Muhammad Yunus there. We actually had a tweet from Eric Prennan. He says you can debate the numbers all you want. People perceive the world as being unequal so not solving it will spark social unrest. So what do we want to do about it? Let's have a think about reform and whether it will achieve much. This is a chance to talk about tax and similar issues. Take us away. How radical would you be, Bob Schiller? I have four books about this. I view these as complicated problems. First of all who are we? Muhammad Yunus referred to we are. There's a fundamental thing called civil society and it has developed it's not when you're right about unequal power but we still and I'm not sure we all understand how it works but even the rich can be framed out of pursuing it too much. Ultimately we do campaign law. Somehow these things happen. They're not perfect but we move ahead. But now do you want me to talk about my particular proposal? I think it is so complicated and there's such a long history. I think we should be generally happy that inequality is not worse but I think you're right Winnie. Oxfam you're doing a good thing to draw attention to these problems. How radical would you be in reforming the current global economic system? Clearly there's some perception that it's not working for everybody. I think of myself as a radical but not in the communist side. I believe that it's a problem of economics. It's a problem of risk management. It's a problem of incentivization and it's a political problem. So what I like to think of is going toward the concepts of the financial and economic theory and based on also our knowledge of human psychology and human instincts about fairness. People have very strong emotion. We have to design institutions. Give us an example of something you would do. Two general categories that I talk about in my book. But they don't solve all the problems. One thing is improving private insurance. We have disability insurance. That helps.  Disability insurance is a huge factor of reducing inequality. We can improve disability insurance by making it cover livelihood risk of a much broader nature. Winnie give us your manifesto. I just want to hear some ideas and then we'll put them to our other. Global tax reform. Oxfam estimates that there's 18 trillion dollars stashed out somewhere in tax havens that's not being taxed. That's money that could be plowed back in the economy to create jobs and to give opportunity to poor people to lift themselves from poverty. So fixing the tax systems to reduce tax dodging and to tax aggressively. That's one. We also know that giving a minimum wage lifts, reduces inequality significantly. Brazil did it. It increased the minimum wage by 50% between 1995 and 2011. That considerably reduced inequality and lifted people out of poverty. Those are two solutions. Let's put both those to our chief executives and I think a bit of what's missing in the current debate is the drivers. We're always referring to times after 2008 as though nothing else has happened. In my view, what's missing in the debate is there is a gigantic new factor and that's technology and the way technology changes the world in a speed that we haven't seen before. It does good things for class we're going to talk about. I just want the tax. I leave it to the expert. You moved to a complete island. Your poll just proved that turkeys don't vote for Christmas. Second point. Cheap money has driven the asset appreciation since Lehmann in 2008. Central bank policy has driven another dose of it yesterday. What happened? Our share price went up 3%. Did things change fundamentally? Do you think it's a structural reform in Europe? No. The third point is when I left university many, many years ago what was the fundamental tenant of economic policy? It was full employment. There was a thing called the Phillips Curve which said what's the level of inflation at full employment? Today it's the complete reverse. Six point plan. Quick, quick, quick. Human capital, i.e. education. Employment and labour compensation. Entrepreneurship and investment. Corruption and concentration of rents. Social transfers. Equalisation of taxation. Basic services and infrastructure. Both hard and soft. You've done the job that Jonathan from Jamaica asked you to do. He wants to hear from the rich themselves how they would make it better for the poor. You've given us a lot to chew on. You mentioned monetary policy driving it. I did want to ask Mark you were a central bank governor. Firstly, for a comment on what happened yesterday at the European Central Bank does the whole issue about quantitative easing has that actually been playing part some role in this? Particularly the distribution of wealth? Well, first thing welcome the steps that the ECB took yesterday absolutely necessary to preserve the prospects of medium term prosperity in Europe. But as Martin indicates that this doesn't deliver medium term prosperity. It creates the conditions for it. Secondly, some necessary conditions. Secondly, all monetary policy has distributional consequences. We lower interest rates. It helps debtors at the expense of savers. Questions of distribution are rightly the province of elected governments. They're societal questions. They're not questions for central banks. Third point if I may. What's absolutely crucial is that we have inflation in the right spot. Inflation, need I remind you. The poor use cash. They can't hedge themselves. They don't have access to any form of insurance. Hurts them more than anyone else. And deflation, which is one of the bigger risks at the moment globally will hurt those who are indebted. Those who became indebted in the run up to the crisis. Those who didn't see their wages increase in the run up to the crisis. That will make the weight of those debts that much worse. I think that the government or the ECB in order to deliver one of the necessary conditions ultimately so that governments, society, civil society as a whole can address these broader issues. Okay. We have a window of opportunity. The price of oil has gone down significantly and probably for a period of time. Now is the time to actually remove the world over, the subsidies to use of energy. If you include the sort of damage caused to the environment as a result of extensive use of energy. You remove those subsidies, two trillion, you put one trillion on job creation. That is, you reduce the social charges on job creation so you accelerate that. And you put one trillion on education. And you particularly focus on women. Two trillions available, you split them in half. And you can also consider as well as the subsidy removal is financial inclusion. Critical to make sure that people actually have the benefit of financial inclusion and a lot of corruption actually can disappear by the same token. Before we move on, I just want to say a couple of words on financial reform because I don't think it's a fair characterization to say nothing has changed since 2008. We're working to re-center finance as a servant of the real economy. It's rightful role. Financial institutions may have spent a lot of money lobbying. They wasted a lot of money lobbying. Capital requirements for financial institutions for banks have increased ten times since the financial crisis. We have worked to put in place mechanisms to end too big to fail. Perceptions matter. One of the big issues is the fairness of the system as Oxfam rightly draws into this in their report, but the subsidy there has come down and it's a subsidy. This implicit subsidy from us two banks come down from about $130 billion in the UK sterling to about $30 billion today. We're looking to eliminate it by changing things. The other aspects that have to change though is the effectiveness of markets, the fairness of markets, allusions to the scandals I think in your initial element and there's some reality there and part of the way we get at that is a way for performance which is performance in all senses of the word, not short term returns but whether there's excessive risk taking and very importantly whether conduct is appropriate. So we're putting in place new structures for pay so that pay can be taken back from those who took excessive risk or certainly who contributed to any of these types of scandals and that's essential to get fairness back in the system to build trust. As Bob Schiller said, it's not all the answer but it's part of the answer. Well I'm encouraged because we've had a lot of ideas. We've had financial reform talked about. We've had a very specific idea about insurance which would help those at the bottom end. We've had Martin Sorrell's six point plan. Rick Sammons. Can I come back on taxation? I want to come up. You see this 50% at the bottom that we talk about that has the same wealth as 80 at the top. Who are they? 90% of them are people in Africa, in Latin America, in some Asian countries. They are from poor developing countries. And who is the 1%? 70% of the 1% are rich people in the northern countries. Now if you look at these developing countries they are also the same countries that are exporting many of them. And we know that a hundred billion dollars is lost to these countries every year through tax dodging and unhealthy tax competition. So unless we fix the global tax rules so that these countries can collect what is due to them they're not going to be able to lift their people out of poverty. So we need to fix the global tax. Christine DeGarde, you might have a role in that, coordinating things potentially. Go on, what do you think of that? We actually do and we provide a lot of the developing countries with technical assistance in order to reform their tax regime, in order to improve their collection of revenues and in order to be more transparent about the relationship that they have with the purchases of those commodities because there is leakage there is base erosion there is profit optimization going on detrimental to the low income countries that are providing those commodities but it's not, I would agree with Professor Schiller it's complicated it has to be done, it has to be improved but it's a complicated matter and there are no sort of black and white solution, it has to be really done properly. But to Winnie's point through to 2030 the rise in the middle class in the BRICS despite some of the current difficulties, short term difficulties I believe, that some of those BRICS have the forecasts are that the middle classes and poverty level middle classes will rise, poverty levels will fall and general wealth will fall the problem will be not so much in those fast growth markets and you saw it a little bit in your film clips the problem will be in western Europe in France and Italy and Spain because that's where the unemployment, particularly youth unemployment is so high and ironically that's not going to be the issue by 2030 I think Martin and Winnie are both doing good things in different spheres, you are helping produce wealth, you are helping deal with a fundamental human problem that if I don't see for poor people I blank them out if you walking down the street anyone here I assume walking down the street found a starving child you would help I know there are people like that to help but you don't see them so what Oxfam does is it brings that to our attention and I think it's a force for the good Yes, one out of nine people in the world today will go to bed hungry tonight that's not right, it shouldn't happen one billion people still live on less than a dollar a day that shouldn't be we can't just keep saying that there's a growing middle class there's one billion people in a world full of riches that are hungry and living desperate lives But Winnie what do those figures mean to you about the very large reduction in the proportion of the world living in poverty do you recognise that that is a system that needs to be preserved and just nudged or do you see it's a system that needs to be overthrown? I'm not ideological, I'm not against capitalism or even against communism I'm just looking for solutions that will give everyone in the world a decent life and we know there are solutions we know there are solutions in fair taxation and spending if that can happen, if we can have a global system of rules that enable that that will help us if we can plow resources into education and health we know that works that is a virtual income to the poor it lifts people out of poverty you said you're not an expert on tax how big a part does tax play in the business decisions that you make, if we put taxes up on your company would it damage the output, the employment all the things we might like Coa just celebrated this 125th anniversary last year in many of the businesses when we invest we stay there for the next 100 years I mean we make decisions today that impact communities over a very very long term tax policy usually is very very volatile, if I make a decision and base it purely on tax policy I would not do a good job but we have to be honest and say it does influence it very significantly so to win this point, to get change you have to have coordinated policy it can't be a race to the bottom I mean for example in the UK one of the reasons that the UK economy has been so effective and efficient and George has done such a good job as CFO of the UK economy the tax rate is internationally highly competitive I think that's the point, it has to be competitive and I think we're talking about in a flat world in a flat world what you really have to do is you have to have a tax policy where you have a level playing field you know as well as I did in class that in America the US companies complain that their tax rates are too high and that is true let me say this, for the companies here that I come to tell to give them uncomfortable messages are putting 50 million dollars every year here in Europe to lobby what are they lobbying about? it's mainly about taxation it's so that they can get away with little taxation so let them stop lobbying why must they keep lobbying? let them put the money in medicine we do need to move on we've got so much to talk about different ideas, not from the debate on equality is thought about the fact that we don't hear very much about what one might do about it we've had plenty to go and chew on. I want us to move on to a brief final section here to talk about whether our system is inexperably driving us to more inequality or potentially less through technology so here's the basic question is the internet and all that goes with it is that a force for redistribution or for allowing the haves to have yet more Tim Berners-Lee who's the inventor of the World Wide Web for a view and he warned that a large chunk of the world's population is being left behind to a certain extent the original vision of the web was that it should be something where individuals, citizens, consumers participate the web seems on the face of it to be a tremendous equalising measure and it's often hailed as being something which breaks down national boundaries allows anybody to connect so let's think about that for a moment first of all when we think about anybody can connect, well actually a minority of people around 40% of people in the world use the web at all so for the other 60% in fact every time the power of the web increases every time it's possible to do more things online then actually those 60% are left further behind so to a certain extent while the web is still only available to 40% of people in the world it is increasing the gap between the haves and the have nots Tim Berners-Lee there well the web obviously has some beneficial effects in reducing concentrations of wealth and power it increases competition it improves education and the transmission of information but it might give more help to those who have the best access and of course it does threaten jobs and disruption often to those already struggling so good effects Klaus Kleinfeld I'm interested in your take on whether technology and the way it impacts your company whether that is if you like diffusing economic power or whether that's concentrating on it and the answer is it does both I mean in a way technology has really made the world very flat it's a digitization of things right I mean Mark Andreessen said software is eating the world and we see that everywhere I mean I've also pulled up some data here on also on the rest of the world I mean if you look at mobile cellular subscription I mean from 2005 1.2 billion of people in the rest of the world has exit now it's 5.1 billion people and when you look at what happens when farmers get their hands around simply a cell phone that has access to market information I mean the average income increases Sri Lanka 23% India 19, Uganda 15, Peru 13 so that's great when you go to the developed world you see another phenomenon you see for instance you look at the job of a call center which can be done as we all know anywhere in the world I mean the cost of that is in the U.S. it's $81,000 a year and in India it's $43,000 a year so guess what's gonna happen right so it's clear it's gonna test both effects I think we're living at a time of panic about artificial intelligence not just the internet think of it more broadly and I think we're panicked by new things that are scaring us about our jobs in the future Siri came out in 2011 it's about four years ago with a cell phone that answers your questions I now have one I turned it off in my pocket but I could say okay Google what should we do about inequality and a voice would come out of my pocket that would join into this conversation it wouldn't be as brice as yours though Robin but the point is that people are scared and they are right to be scared we don't know where this is going artificial intelligence is coming and it will replace your job or at least bring you into it's not only artificial I mean it's 3D printing robotics we see in the Alcoa manufacturing process we don't know to Robert's point and we don't know in our industry too how much how many jobs are created or not one point I hesitate to disagree with Tim Berners-Lee but take Egypt for example which we were discussing last night 44% internet penetration 115% penetration on mobile the difference is the smartphone China 475 million smartphones the difference is the smartphone Xiaomi $45 billion of value after four years these things are changing forever Grameen Bank built on those telephone women that rented out phones mobile technology is fundamentally changing way and altering supply chains and legacy businesses in a very threatening way okay we've got a tweet making the point the robotics lead to capital intensive production and then unemployment and tech thus drives inequality Winnie are you as pessimistic about technology as that no I'm not want the potential of technology to give a good life to everyone lift people from poverty is enormous we work in many countries around the world using technology to help poor people find solutions one of the proudest project one of the projects I'm proud of is a project that gives young people post crisis coming out of war in northern Uganda opportunity to access global markets through the internet doing some outsourcing work for companies in America that's great but we have to understand that today people are dying from Ebola there's no vaccine for Ebola malaria still killing millions of people it could be treated and why because there's an over reliance on intellectual property for research and development in technology if we can put research and technology more as a public good and have investments by governments for the development of technologies that can empower people then we are on track but when it's driven by private interests and intellectual property rights it doesn't lift people from poverty I think you've been a little more pessimistic than I was expecting about technology if I'm honest let's get the mood of the hall here let me just ask a very simple binary question new technology is it going to create jobs over the next 20 years or is it going to destroy jobs over the next 20 years how many of you think it will create jobs and how many think it will destroy jobs I would say that was about three quarters one quarter three quarters we haven't time for the don't know Martin three quarters think it will create will create jobs okay let me go back to my because we are tight we are now sort of wrapping up first of all Mark Carney are you pessimistic on technology because of course technology in the past has tended to create as many jobs as it destroys no I'm an optimist on technology I'm not a secular stagnationist if you will in that sense of the word but the disruption element is very large here and there will be a period of adjustment and so picking 20 years is actually quite helpful if your question was in the next five it would be much more difficult make a couple of points on technology first we should recognize actually some of the biggest the firms that take most advantage of international tax rules are technology companies the amount of tax that's actually paid by technology companies is very small relative to the returns so that IP and so a sense of responsibility for the system I would point to that two final points on technology first is that as Robert Schiller alludes to artificial intelligence it's not even just the intelligence it's actually the algorithmic power of the ability for technology to displace very what we see as cognitive jobs today but actually everything I did at Goldman Sachs actually can be replaced by technology which tells you something which is why I had to leave and there's some who think everything I do today would be better replaced by technology but the point being that in that disruption a series of white collar middle class jobs people have to improve their skills to move to the higher creativity jobs a lot of them in the interim this is the job polarization point compete they're over skilled for the jobs they compete and that helps keep wages down so the issue becomes how do you have education how do you have lifelong learning how do you have training for a world where we're actually creating the mass creativity those are the types of jobs we'll ultimately need but it's going to take a while to get from here to there we've just got 90 seconds left if you like wrap up the whole debate with you Christine Lagarde it feels like there's been a big shift in the intellectual climate in the last five or ten years we talked about that at the beginning do you think there's a political will to grab some of the issues that we've talked about perhaps think about do some of the policies that we discussed you know if I can move the IMF in the direction of looking at inequality as main stream and core business if the Republican party in the United States is now looking at inequality as an issue as was reported in the New York time this morning then certainly there is a shift and we have to take advantage of that shift in order to make sure that what is excessive becomes sensible reasonable and conducive to good creation of market value to good creation of jobs and to a bit more fairness around the world 20 seconds were you excited by President Obama's State of the Union message on Monday? If you can implement half of it yes and the tax stuff the tax stuff half of it we've had a very interesting debate sometimes these issues are always far more complicated than the public would like them to be but we do now need to bring a close to our debate today of course the conversation can continue you might want to follow up some of the points you've heard you can continue the conversation online in homes and in workplaces around the world but let me say a very heartfelt thank you to all of you who have contributed your thoughts and questions there are some more tweets I could have read thank you to our global audience around the world on television radio and online and of course above all thanks to our panel here but that is all from the world debate in Davos from me Evan Davis goodbye