Hello, hello, hello, and welcome. I'm Meroen Kilili. We are DM25, a radical political movement for Europe, and this is another live discussion with our coordinating team, featuring subversive ideas you won't hear anywhere else. And today we're looking at press freedom, and specifically at one of our original causes here at DM25, the fight for the release of Julian Assange. For newcomers, it's worth restating the key elements of Julian's story just quickly. He's a journalist who, over a decade ago via his media outlet, WikiLeaks, uncovered evidence of the crimes of the United States, among other countries. This included proof of the massacre of civilians by the US military in Afghanistan and Iraq, of torture, of mass surveillance and of widespread corruption, of a web of secret power from the arms industry, to security agreements, to elections, and beyond. And for this brave act of investigative journalism, Julian, the father of two small boys, has been held without trial in a maximum security prison in the US, excuse me, in the UK, for almost five years. He has not seen the sun since he was incarcerated, and he's been confined to a cell for 23 out of every 24 hours. Now, Julian's final appeal is going on, as we speak, at London's High Court. If he loses, he'll almost certainly be extradited to the US to face 175 years in prison. This would have huge implications for human rights and for press freedom around the world, and it would tell anyone who wants to seriously probe the actions of the powerful better think again, because this is what could happen to you. Yet today, the radical transparency and subversive spirit of Julian Assange and WikiLeaks have never been more needed. We're living in a dangerous moment, with a horrific war continuing in Ukraine, tens of thousands of civilians in Gaza being murdered, the far right on the rise, behind the scenes deals with fossil fuel companies suffocating our planet, everything we've been discussing in these live streams. But instead of a vibrant fourth estate, we have a largely compliant media, whose idea of challenging power is official say journalism and softball questions. So tonight, we're asking, what does Julian's case mean for the future of journalism, of democratic discourse, and of our understanding of what states and corporations do in the shadows? And how do these dynamics affect our ability to confront power and make informed decisions as a society? Our panel, including our own Janis Farrufakis, who will be with us shortly. And I'm very pleased to say Srećko Horvat, who's back, our old colleague and co-founder of DM25, together with our team of activist thinkers and doers, several of whom are attending Julian Assange protests right now and will be calling in from there.  Thank you for attending tonight, all of you. Thank you for you out there who are listening and watching. Let's hand the floor over to Srećko. Floor is yours. Allow me to be personal at this very start, at this day, of the first day of the court proceedings at the court in London, because the personal is political and the political is personal. And it's very personal if you plan to kill my friend.  And it will have dire consequences, not only on the freedom of press, not only on media, not only on whistleblowing, it will have dire consequences on democracy, or at least what is still left of democracy on this continent called Europe, but also what is still left of democracy in the United States. Because we have to say clearly, and I have been saying this for years, and DM 25 has been saying this for years, that Julian Assange is a political prisoner. Take Navalny and what happened the other day.  And in a similar way, it will be a fact that if Julian Assange dies in Belmarsh Prison in the United Kingdom, or if he dies at the Alexandria Prison in Virginia in the United States, he will be killed by Biden and by the UK government. And if you think this is an exaggeration, it was sufficient to look at the court proceedings today and to listen to what the lawyers of Julian Assange and his colleagues have said today. They have clearly and convincingly presented, not only today, but for years already now, evidence that the CIA and the US government planned to poison Julian Assange. Navalny was poisoned again to take this parallel, and then as you know, he ended up somewhere in the Arctic Circle in a penal colony and died there. Julian Assange was attempted to be poisoned by the CIA. He was attempted to be kidnapped by the CIA. This plan was presented to Donald Trump, and now he wants to be transferred into another penal colony for 175 years in prison, in Alexandria and a supermax prison, which would basically be a death sentence. So what's the difference? Vladimir Putin is killing his opposition, Joe Biden and the so-called West is killing their opposition. They are killing Julian Assange because what they want is to cover up their crimes, the crimes which were revealed by WikiLeaks, which were revealed about the atrocities which were committed by the United States government in Afghanistan in Iraq. And you know, he was charged by the Espionage Act, and it's really important to remind what the Espionage Act is. I mean, can you imagine we are in the 21st century and there's still a law from 1917, which is the year of the October Revolution, when the First World War is still taking place. And according to that law, they want to imprison a journalist, a publisher who is not even a citizen of the United States. And it's worth remembering especially today who were the others who were charged by the notorious Espionage Act for their activities. And they were all great Democrats. One of them Eugene Depps, the other one Emma Goldman, Alexander Bergman, Daniel Ellsberg, Edward Snowden, the list in whose company Julian Assange is long. And he should be proud and we are proud of him to be in this company of courageous people who were charged by the Espionage Act. Also, Julian Assange is in the company of a tradition which lasts more than 2000 years. He's the company of Socrates, who was also poisoned, who was killed because telling the truth. And here I must say, you know, there is this famous quote by Julian Assange that if wars can be started by lies, peace can be achieved by truth. But I must say today that truth as such is not enough. What we have to do is to mobilize and organize and we have to fight. And that's why I would like to propose a little anecdote at the end of my speech. I'll stay here. And the anecdote comes from the ashes of the Third Reich. So one night in 1933, a man climbs the stage of a cabaret in Berlin and he raises his hands in a Nazi salute. And he starts by saying, hi, what is his name again? And as soon as he said this, the Gestapo rushed on the stage, took him out, and the guy ended up for 12 years in different concentration camps. Somehow he succeeded to survive. And after 12 years of concentration camps, he returns. The first thing he does, he goes to stage of the same cabaret in Berlin and he says, let me, he raises the hand again. The audience is perplexed. What's happening now? Because it was already a bit of denazification. And you know what he says? He says, anyway, let me continue where I was really interrupted. And I think this is a lesson for our struggle. Julian Assange is in one form or the other form already for 15 years caged. He didn't see the sun for more than a decade. It might last for years. But let us be like that man who was fighting the Nazis and making fun of them. Let us consider this as a rude interruption in our struggle and let us continue this struggle because today is just the first day. Tomorrow is the second day. But if it's decided that he will not be extradited, it might again take a long time. He's already almost for five years in prison. And what I see, what I feel is that actually the United States government would be the happiest if they just leave him in prison until the US elections are finished, if they silence him because they silenced him already. And that's why I think besides the great struggle of support which is happening in Europe, we should also focus on the United States. We should bring the struggle back to the United States because that's the place where this struggle will be decided. It's not the UK. It's not the court. It is the United States.  Thank you very much for that, Srećko. And on the subject of the struggle, let's go now to Johannes Fair and Karin Dorego and Dushan Paević, our colleagues who are at a protest with hundreds of people in Berlin for Julian Assange. Johannes and Kru. Thank you, Meran. And thank you all for being with us tonight and also coming out in support of Julian Assange, like hundreds have done here in Berlin, like all of our members have done this week and these days across Europe.  Over to Dushan Paević, the DN25 campaign coordinator, visiting us from Montenegro. Thanks, Johannes. Yes, I want to say first of all that many things in life are complex and this is not one of them. This one is a simple thing. We need Julian Assange out and we need more criminal sin. It's that simple. So as Julian Assange said, the way to achieve justice is to expose injustice. We are here today and will be further on. We will try to mobilize more people and we need to stand up against this imperialistic act of silent murder. This is completely unacceptable and my heart and our hearts and our hands are all with Julian Assange. I will go back now to Karin Derigo. I am leading European elections candidate from Germany. Hi everybody. We are here today in Berlin because we want really to stand for Assange and to say this is the moment of truth because we want just freedom for him. He didn't deserve to be there as he just was doing his job. He wants to inform us. He wanted to tell the citizens what our government is doing and this has definitely the priority over everything else. Now it's going to be really a decisive moment and we will stand here until everything will be finished. Tomorrow we are also here in Berlin. So please share this message and free Julian Assange. Thank you. With these words, we give it back to all of you. We hope that you have a great stream that you come out to the protest in the next days and that, yeah, we work and organize as we are doing with DM25 and Meta25 until Julian Assange is free because if Julian is not free, we are all not free. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Johannes, Dushan and Karin. If any of you out there are near Berlin, then please, please do join the protest for Julian in Berlin and let's move to The Hague, where another protest is going on being attended by our policy coordinator Amir Kia'i. Amir. Thank you, everyone and we are indeed glad to be here in The Hague as well as this protest happening in Amsterdam and other parts of the Netherlands because this issue of Assange is really critical. We also note that's the imprisonment of Assange and the amount of being pressured putting onto him is a way of coercing the rest of the media and the rest of our journalists and editors. So importantly today and while we have some semblance of free media in our countries, our message must not just only reach authorities if you will and our campaigns mustn't only be put to the public to increase pressure but to editors and journalists that are largely remaining silent because his loss of freedom, women loss of freedom for journalists and to editors in the media who will no longer be able to speak truth to power and will remain complicit. So while they're still possible for them to act and organize, we're urging them to do so and we want more and more involvement of the media in defense of Assange and not be complicit in his slow death. Thank you, thank you for that Amir. Yannis, Yannis, who is yours? Well thank you, thank you too. It's wonderful to have you such a go back. You said everything I would have said. Thank you to Johannes, to Karen, to Dusan, to Amir for being on there on the ground. It's important to remember we're not a think tank, we're a movement and we need to be on the streets to move the streets, to be moved by the streets and Julian's case is a very good case in point. So because those of you whose form is said, everything that needs to be said about what is at stake and what people are doing on the street in order to defend our right to know and our right to pursue those who are pursuing the agents of truth, the honest force on me to play the role of a quasi-journalist just to remind our audience of what is at stake, of what exactly was happening in London today and tomorrow. So Julian's lawyers are appealing to the High Court in Britain and they're appealing what? This is the second appeal, the first appeal which was an appeal to grant Julian the right to argue his case in front of the High Court has been already rejected. So this is a second and final appeal, an appeal over the lost appeal. If that is turned down then the only flicker of hope that he will not be extradited is that the European Court of Human Rights is going to hear his case and overrule the British High Court. Now there is no guarantee that the European Court of Human Rights would even hear the case or even consider the case. There is a small possibility that European Court of Human Rights will step in. Moreover, even if it does, there is a very strong possibility that Britain will disregard the European Court of Human Rights because the present government in London and especially the governing majority of the Tory party of the Conservatives are going with the idea of removing the European Court of Human Rights from any kind of jurisdiction over the UK as part of Brexit. You will recall that the European Court of Human Rights is not part of the European Union, it's got nothing to do with the European Union, it's not the European Court, it's the European Court of Human Rights that belongs to the Council of Europe, which is much bigger than the EU. Britain has been a member from the beginning of the European Council and the European Court of Human Rights and remains so after Brexit. But because this government of Rishi Sunak wants to violate international law and to send asylum seekers to Rwanda without first processing their claims for asylum, they had already been discussing in London the possibility that the United Kingdom effectively severed its links with the European Court of Human Rights to sum up. If we lose this case tomorrow and the High Court does not grant Julian the right to appeal, then the European Court of Human Rights is a very unsafe proposition. First, they may not want to know and secondly, even if they want to hear the appeal and they decide in favour of Julian, there is a very strong possibility that London is simply going to, we don't care what you say, European Court of Human Rights. I'm mentioning this in order to make clear what kind of significance this court case has. Now, on the actual arguments that the Gerald and the other lawyers on behalf of our team are putting to the judges of the High Court, I've been monitoring what happened this morning. There were two main points of law that were being put forward by the legal team and they both concern violations of the treaty between the United Kingdom and the United States regarding extradition. The first is a clear one. It's a self-evident one. The extradition treaty between the United Kingdom and the United States clearly excludes from the extradition process anyone who is being persecuted for political reasons. Now, if anybody has ever been persecuted for political reasons, that's Julian Assange. The fact that they are masquerading this under the Espionage Act doesn't change the fact that Julian's persecution is fully and entirely political, because if it was a matter of the printing of this particular or the publication of these particular videos and texts and memoranda from within the military establishment of the United States, then they should have arrested everybody working for the New York Times and the Washington Post because they printed it actually. So why are they not pursuing them? And they are pursuing Julian because it was Julian who made available these. He didn't extract these bits of information, this data, these videos, these texts, these documents from anyone. He received them like the New York Times received them from Danielsburg back in the early 1970s. So it is clear that Julian has done nothing, nothing which is outside the remit of journalism and therefore his persecution is nothing but political because of the embarrassment that he caused to the United States government. So that's the first argument that our lawyers are putting to the high court judges. The second concerns the death sentence because the British have a policy of never ex-adviding to the United States anyone who's facing the death penalty. They have been murderers, convicted murderers, people who actually confessed to murder, who were not extradited to the United States, people who were clearly criminals and murderers whom the British authorities refused to extradite the United States on the basis that they were facing the death sentence in the United States, a sentence which the British constitution and written constitution but constitution nevertheless prohibits. Now the charges under the Espionage Act that have been laid against Julian clearly make it possible for him to be given a death sentence clearly. What the American authorities did in order to circumvent that problem is they have given a kind of a guarantee commitment to the British courts that he will not be condemned to death. He will not be given the death sentence. However, if you read the fine print it says unless he commits acts that warrant the death sentence. So this is the absurdity think of this. The United States security apparatus which as Sechko said before had planned and tried to implement his murder. So the people who planned and tried to implement his murder will be the ones that according to the British justices will be determining whether he has done something or he will do something that warrants them killing him.   The crucial issue is that they will murder him anyway simply by throwing him into the high security supermax prison this particularly vicious form of solidary confinement. He's already in solidary confinement but the difference between the solidary confinement in Belmarsh and the one that he will face in the United States is night and day just black and white there is a huge difference. The supermax jail that he's going to be put into has been designed in order to destroy humans. So I mean if you put me in there I would have committed suicide there's no doubt about that within a few days I would find a way to kill myself and you have to remember that Julian has been incarcerated for 13 years the last five years in solidary confinement. Let us not forget also that he's on the spectrum of autism and the particular part of the spectrum of autism where sensory deprivation is a clear means of torturing torturing him in a way that it wouldn't be torturing me or you. Having said all that and to wind down it is not Julian who's on trial as we speak it is Britain's High Court and it is the High Court judges that are being tried by public opinion by history by morality by progressives around the world their decision will be signed whether they will be found guilty of gross violation of the principles justice and beach freedom of the press if they deny Julian the right to appeal and I would even prefer that even if they grant that right to appeal and they don't give you bail so that you can get out of that hellhole in Belmash prison which I visited a couple of times they will be issuing their own condemnation in the eyes of fair-minded truly liberal people in the United Kingdom and around the world and as such indicated who benefits really from Julian's slow murder from his continued incarceration yes of course it is the national security establishment in the United States has been very hard done by they've been very embarrassed by the revelations of the way they were killing people in Iraq in Afghanistan and all that but in the end the true beneficiaries of his incarceration and slow death are tyrants worldwide because you know what can you tell how can anyone who supports the liberal establishment in the United Kingdom over in the United States through the European Union accuse Putin of killing journalists Navalny whoever what Putin has to do is turn around and say yeah but you're killing a man who did nothing wrong except to tell the truth about your murder your murderous campaigns in reacting against every tyrant the world hides behind the fate of Julian Assange in order to justify their murderous deeds this is why as I said it is our duty to continue struggling and never to forget that even if he is released we must continue the struggle we must continue the struggle until the people who are today persecuting Julian end up in prison if these judges turn a blind eye to the facts of the case and do not grant him appeal they must be prosecuted until the end of the days we need to prosecute them and the war criminals that Julian has exposed because together they are complicit in large-scale murder and the murder of freedom of the press murder of freedom of expression dm25 has had the privilege of having Julian Assange as its founding co-founding members remember he was at the Fox Brunei on the 9th of February 2016 I think we should all feel very proud of that because let me remind you of something else today I'm very pleased to see that almost all progressives are coming out in support of Julian Assange not only progressives it was wonderful that last week in the Australian parliament where there was no single member of parliament a few years ago supporting Julian Assange last week there was a very large majority in the Australian parliament voting in favor of a petition of a motion to recommend to demand the release of Julian Assange but back in 2016 when you and I were dm25 we're not only backing Julian Assange but we had him there on the screen if you remember the Fox Brunei talking to us live from the Ecuadorian embassy back then there were many so-called progressives leftists so-called feminists who were taking us to task and demonizing us for letting Julian Assange for giving Julian Assange a podium an opening to present his case and presenting his views very few people between 2016 and 2020 dared say anything in favor of Julian's case I personally I'm not going to forget that they will always always carry that burden around the next because it just goes to show that the so-called left the so-called progressives when it mattered they dropped the ball I'm glad they're back on board I'm glad that Julian's case is now fashionable again but we dm25 never never never let the ball drop we'd never consider the political cost to us into a movement from continuing to support Julian Assange because we are principled it doesn't matter whether we lose or win it doesn't matter if we whether into nothing or succeed into changing the world people like Julian for us represent principled activism and that's what we are thank you thank you Janice a couple of quick comments from the chat Jason Mott says how Julian has endured 13 years is a miracle Helena Jennings asks is reporting facts a criminal act Jenny Ren asks if the judges to decide to extradite Julian what implications does this have for society at large in terms of public perceptions at the notion of justice something that Janice also touched on and a quick thought I just wanted to give you guys I mean Janice talked about the support for Julian and how that has wavered and is now coming back from the left but I also would like us to touch on perhaps the the supply of leaks the type of journalism that WikiLeaks and Julian embodied and why that doesn't seem to be out there very much anymore is that because what they're doing to Julian is setting such an example that people are afraid the journalists are afraid that activists are afraid to blow the whistle to come out and publish secrets of power or are there other reasons because with what's happening now in in Ukraine in Gaza some of the things I spoke about at the beginning of the of this call there should be emails flying everywhere from Zelensky's cabinet from Blinken from Netanyahu all these things should be should be out there and I'm quite amazed that as Junion said in an interview a couple of months ago it seems that it's very sad but it seems that nobody is stepping in to fill WikiLeaks' shoes. Julianna, Julianna Zieter from Germany, floor is yours. Well on what you said I I don't think that it's not out there I think that for example Gaza is a very good example that things are out there and that social media is kind of a bit filling in that too but it's not that organized like it was with WikiLeaks that it was one platform one side where you could go and see all the information now it's kind of yeah more decentralized but I think that people are doing it but at the same time I believe that journalists for sure got way more cautious with what they're putting out and how they're putting it out and speaking I wanted to talk about media briefly because I I read an article from the FA said today where the journalist was devastated that so not many people are out there for a search which I find very hypocritical to to a bring out that article on the first day of the hearing at not two weeks prior you know to help mobilize so and Slashko mentioned Navalny and Yanis also and I think there you can see a huge difference in media report reports about Navalny were never neutral never it was clear who is the hero it was clear what he did it was clear that he's the opposition that Russia and Putin is the bad guy with Assange all reports are neutral it's what he did who he is a lot of mention of WikiLeaks but never there is never a big uproar from the press about what's happening to him really so I think and I'm devastated that the media because he's one of them and he is from the same place they are working in which is the West that they are very cautious about even supporting him and I think it's also part of the problem why not even more people are mobilizing behind Assange I think it's great that there are so many organizations out there and progressive who are doing it but it could be way more people and I think that's kind of an issue of yeah of that fear but maybe also just cowardness in my opinion of the media yeah so much for me I have a question on the maybe somebody can answer maybe honest because I read that there is a possibility that he might might be able to go to Australia like is there a possibility that he might end up in Australia at the end of the story or is the support from Australia just like yeah just a minor thing which might not have a huge impact and of course my heart also goes out to Stella I had the opportunity to meet her a few times I think she's a very brave woman she's kind of imprisoned with him she has they have adorable children it's horrible to not be able to spend time with your father properly so also for me I hope Stella goes well through these days thank you Juliana um Janice maybe I can bring you back in quickly just to respond to Julian's question uh yes Juliana look the great well there's been a change in Australia the the change is that the previous Labour Prime Minister Julia Gillard when we were struggling to get some sign of support from her uh disgraced herself by saying that Julian was was getting what he deserved because he was a spy and because he was you know Karen whatever she was terrible terrible Julia Gillard the former Labour Prime Minister this Labour Prime Minister has come out in support of Julian and he even promised to pressurize Biden to end the persecution unfortunately if he did he did so in such a lukewarm way that it had no effect and one can say well what could he do well he could do a lot because you may have heard of the AUKUS Treaty the Australian UK United States Treaty which came into force or renegotiated about a year ago uh Australia committed to spend tens if not hundreds of billions of dollars on American nuclear submarines uh he could easily have slipped in a term a condition that you know we are going to do that but you first you have to drop the persecution of course no Australian politician no mainstream party Australian politician has the guts to do that okay having said that look uh i'll tell you what i my what my feeling is my estimation is by the to be extradited because uh he wants to satisfy the national security apparatus cabal he wants to throw him in he throw him in a supermax jail i don't know for how long and try him in a candidate court because i'm it's very important to know for everyone to know whether you are supporting julian or not supporting julian what that court case will look like in the united states it will be held behind closed doors number one number two now take get what i'm going to say now because the human mind has difficulty wrapping itself around what i'm about to say his lawyers not him his lawyers will not even be told what the charges are and what the evidence is did you get that not only is there going to be no open court case where you know under habeas corpus you have the right to hear what you're being charged with his lawyers will not hear what evidence there is to charge him the one judge no jury will hear directly from the cia and the nsa nsa i don't know who else what the evidence is and the judge who is selected by that apparatus is going to decide now put in courts are more fair than that and more liberal than that i close the penance so the idea is to put him through this process hold him in one of those disgusting cells in a supermax jail to crush him completely as if he's not crushed already to convict him so that he has the label of convicted criminal on his forehead and then the best we can hope is that they will then extradite him to australia to serve the rest of his turn 170 years but of course the australian government will bring him out on bail and he can stay at home but not be able to travel anywhere i think that is the best we can hope if he's extradited to the united states now two points if i may mention the first one is there's no guarantee that he'll survive this i don't know how long i would take and i really last time i saw him he was he'd faded substantially a few months ago and if he goes through the process of extradition the process of staying at supermax jail with complete oddory and deprivation sensory deprivation and he's put through this came the look i think we lost you for a second the ends it will be a major defeat for him the the hates the fact that he's he doesn't have not even united by some united states can look or in australia as a free man it's better than dying but he will consider it a defeat still we want him out in any way of all let's hope that we stop the extradition from taking place thank you janice i had some internet troubles there but we got we got most of it two comments from the chat tiago says this a supermax prison for a journalist i thought they were for the most dangerous criminals and jason says too few journalists have broken ranks to defend julian they too will be complicit in his fate ivana ivana nananovic from syria for us hello and thank you and just to connect to those last two comments and also what was said before regarding the bravery to support julian uh i think that the machine the media and the powers that be made a good job at the beginning of his journey and made the spins and implemented the stories which took away from what the truth is that he published what he received and uh the examples that him and chelsea manning who provided the documents are made now that's of course putting fear in in people that might blow the whistle but it's certainly no excuse for the journalists that should break their rank to stand for the truth uh i have a list of how is it possible srećko said at the beginning that we are in the 21st century and that they want to trial a man based on law from 1917 uh how is it even possible that this is happening in front of our eyes for 13 years and that we cannot do anything it's a lot that we can even speak about it as it was said previously um and i am proud that we never uh budget down uh in front of accusations and you know anything that you can throw out there from the rape accusations misogyny anti-semitism being uh mandling in us uh elections and so on and so on julian had it all and uh we proudly fought for it all i can say that to go to something that you asked at the beginning uh mehran how do we perceive the news how do we continue with trusting the media that is obviously serving us uh lies and propaganda and it is so obvious on on israel palestine example and juliana said it only thanks to social media we are seeing what's going on in gaza and that's why the reaction is so big this time i think i believe um so in a way there are these uncentralized independent potential whistleblowers on the other hand we can also witness how they are being silenced and threatened and killed in prison with the with the the same people being the judge and the jury so the question is with the system with the courts with the media being so corrupted how do we even um go forward of course julian should be free but he's he's struggle for the freedom of the speech and for the right for the information to be published should go on thank you thank you ivana you did you did maya from berlin thank you mehran so um i i have to agree with um ivana the state of our um media is absolutely terrible um especially here in germany i don't think that we can ascribe the whole problem to uh lack of uh whistleblowers we don't know if they're whistleblowers how would we know um i believe that also um outlets have become a lot a lot less likely to publish anything like when julian published his documents he had outlets in germany in us in france and so on that published his um documents and now our outlets are not even publishing like official information like the the icj uh the court day um the first day of of the court hearing was not published was basically ignored especially in in german media and um it's it's just a completely different playing field and we urgently need uh more independent media and to support independent media that might have the ability to become a place that whistleblowers could trust and could turn to um so basically looking at the bigger picture i believe that we will remember 2023 2024 as the years in which we learned that there is no international justice no freedom of press no human rights for anyone that the western establishment doesn't like but that doesn't mean that these ideas are a silly idealism the invention of principles like the freedom of the press like human rights and the idea that you could turn to an international court to get justice the invention of these ideas make our world a much better place than it was before and this was the first step the invention the second step was to instill a sense in people worldwide that these principles are universal and should be followed we also accomplished that i think it's widely widely accepted now the third step was to create international institutions we also did this step now the fourth step is the only step left is the four step which is to ensure that these institutions actually defend the principles that we need them to defend but that is a much much better than a situation than if we were still on step one so there's the fight now and i think that this year everyone knows that this is the fight because a lot of the smoke and mirrors are disappearing very fast and we're getting a clear picture so as Janne said absolutely the world is watching these british judges judges it's watching the icj it's watching the european court of human rights watching the journalists who are staying silent through this and we will find a way to remove them from office if they fail to do their duty thank you you did um while you had the floor and especially since you're a technical guru i have a question for you um i understand what you're saying that media today are deterred from publishing leaks that they may they may source but is there or how is the situation technically um in 2010 uh i think governments were perhaps a little a little behind in terms of their their encryption protecting their systems i think the hillary clinton email leak was it was a standard sort of phishing attack or some kind of hacking attack i'm surprised though that that hackers today are not more um you know more out there and and and able to able to access systems is it is it that they are deterred because they're nervous or is it that governments technically have actually caught up and what they've got in place are better protection better firewalls better technology than what people out there have to to penetrate them no the advantage is always with the the attacker um and especially when you have a large government agency where not just a handful of hack of a handful of it buffs have to be able to get into the system but say hundreds or thousands of people have to be able to log in in some way whether through a passport or sorry a password or another means it will always be possible the human is always the weakest link it will be possible to convince one of these people that you have a legitimate interest or you know to steal their key to steal their password to pretend that you're the the person in charge to depend to pretend that you're the it administrator and you have to give them a different password or so whatever that is always going to be easy and that is why i don't believe that anything that can be invented is going to change the equation very much it is like those park rangers in canada saying that they cannot invent trash cans that are safe from bears because the most intelligent bear is um more intelligent than the stupidest human visitor thank you for that you did um interesting defny defny delcada delcara based in france so was yours okay okay i just want to quickly very reiterate something uh that the the way in which uh the media the ruling classes have handled juliana sanchez case has i think a chilling effect in twofold one is the actual punishment so like saying to whistleblowers and those who publish whistleblowers look what can happen to you but i think there is a second layer that several speakers already touched upon is the the way the media classes have handled this in a way that they become silent and complacent and what does that send what message does that send to a young journalist in a newsroom for example what does that say first that to witness that prosecution persecution and second to see the so-called colleagues silence and even disdain about this subject what kind and add to that like how precarious journalism has come and the loss of funding and everything what does that do to the mind and will and determination of a young journalist in a newsroom or in a newspaper and and we see then we see what's happening in gaza and we say like how can the journalist class be so bad like how did we come here but this is how we come here and it's really as you did said we really need a reckoning because this is not okay and it's extremely dangerous for democracy or society and like anything we hold dear thanks thank you very much for that defney okay eric eric edmund our political director based in brussels for yours cheers mithun um just very quickly on the journalism front that we've been discussing essentially the problem here is private media right because when you have private media media that basically needs profit in order to function and to for journalists i get their paychecks at the end of the month you get one of two things you either get journalists who only pursue news that quote unquote sells um and therefore certain news topics and especially investigative journalism ends up suffering immensely and has been for the last few decades or you get journalists who cannot publish uh topics and opinions that go against the interests of the people whose control their paychecks at the end of the month in either case uh media run for profit in democracies are catastrophic because it means that citizens whose job it is to rule their own countries through elections and through uh choosing representatives cannot make informed decisions right i'm now dumbing it down extremely but this is really what it comes down to and the only thing that can fight this is independent media is media that is not run for profit it's financed directly by its readership and therefore has no strings attached it's the only thing that we can support and should support now uh on julien coming at the end of the hour i don't have something to say that hasn't already been said uh by by everybody who's spoken however i still because it's a topic so close to my heart i felt that he took to take the floor and i thought what i could possibly do is speak through somebody who can't speak right now and that's julien uh by reading out some of his in my opinion best quotes and by doing so reminding i think that julien's work julien's words all continue to have an effect through us pushing them and repeating them and not letting them go not letting his cause go until he's free once again to continue the the incredibly courageous work that that he's been doing for the past decades but until that happens i think one of the best things we can do is this and uh the first one is on journalism where he said what are the differences between mark zuckerberg and me i give private information on to corporations on corporations to you for free and i'm a villain zuckerberg gives your private information to corporations for money and he becomes man of the year on times magazine on war very prescient topic in later months nearly every war that has started in the past 50 years has been only a result of media lies the media could have stopped them had they searched deep enough if they hadn't reprinted government propaganda they could have stopped them and this and this speaks to the quality of the man he considered to be uh optimistic news the result that you know media could have stopped so julian and i think this is one of the reasons that had one of the things that have allowed him to to to remain with us after 13 years of torture essentially is an incurable optimist and i think we should all take strength from that because even if media aren't doing their job now there can still be a future in which they do and they must then he also said if wars can't be started by lies and this is one of his most famous quotes they can be stopped by truth and here are a couple of quotes that i think really shine through his character you have to start with the truth he said the truth is the only way that we can get anywhere because any decision making that is based upon lies or ignorance can't lead to a good conclusion he also said one of the best ways to achieve justice is to expose injustice and finally and i think in this quote also lies the reason why he was one of the co-founders of the m25 he said every time we witness an act that we feel to be unjust and do not act we become party to the injustice however this is my temperament i enjoy creating systems on a grand scale and i enjoy helping people who are vulnerable and i enjoy crushing bastards so we should help julian continue crushing bastards even from the prison cell through our work and continue the fight until he's finally freed whether he gets freed now from belmarsh or from wherever he might end up after tomorrow the fight continues every day until julian the sound is free thank you eric well said and we're at the top of the hour so on that note we will leave you thank you to our panel thank you to you out there for your comments and if you would like to join dm25 and fight with us for the freedom of julian assange please go to dm25.org slash join you can become a member in a couple of minutes thank you again and see you at the same time same place to


This systematic review and meta-analysis evaluates the effectiveness of social media and mobile health interventions for cancer screening, finding that they have a promising role in promoting cancer screening participation. The study identifies 39 studies, 35 mHealth and for social media, and finds an overall pooled odds ratio of 1.49, 95% CI 1.31 to 1.70, with similar effect sizes across cancer types. However, the limited number of studies identified highlights the need for further research on social media interventions. This article was authored by Arlinda Rucco, Fahima Dosa, Jill Tinmuth, and others.


My name is Damien Grant and today I'll be discussing diversity, equity, and inclusion in cybersecurity. So a little bit of my background, I actually currently work within digital forensics and incident response for a large pharmaceutical company. My background is I actually spent 8 years in the Navy doing cybersecurity in the form of network plantation testing. And also working within counter cyber intelligence after leaving active duty, I actually went to the Maryland international guard and I am a cyberspace operations officer with them as well. Did consulting for a couple of years for a large consulting firm, mostly doing tax service illumination vulnerability assessment and also doing some incident response services for mostly federal clients and some commercial clients. I actually attended DEF CON a couple of years ago and was very, very fortunate with a team of four to actually win a black badge for a missing person's OSINT CTF. So I have some experience here at DEF CON. So let's talk a little bit about the problem. When we talk about the problem, what we tend to see when it comes to just applicants in general to any sort of job is that a black applicants are less likely to be content. When they are actually applying for jobs, there was a study that showed that if you took the same resume and put a white sounding name on the resume and then put a black sounding name on the resume, sent it out to all the same folks, you would get fewer responses for a black applicant. So, you know, there's a barrier there to entry when it comes to just the job market in general. When you look at STEM, STEM is a place where you're really likely to see fewer black faces.  Most lower income schools and lower income communities tend not to have any kind of dedicated STEM programs. And so you see that there are fewer opportunities for black students to actually be in those programs. Really, what you tend to see is, you know, the opportunity will be there for a lot of folks that are in, you know, higher income communities, but not so much in lower income communities where a lot of black people actually do live. And then you start to drill into cybersecurity in general. So, a computer science is a field of study that you just don't see a lot of black faces in. That's something that has been improving steadily, but it's not improving at the pace of the actual openings that are being seen within computer science. And then cybersecurity in general, you know, black practitioners do not make up a large part of information security analysts when you start to look at the numbers around the cybersecurity community. And then you actually really want to kind of dive into it as well in terms of the culture. So, recruiting, especially in a highly technical field is just somewhere where people are at a disadvantage in general. Recruiters tend to have a lack of understanding of the scope of responsibility of a cybersecurity practitioner. And also, there are multiple different ways to define skills. So when people write resumes, even those are those resumes might actually apply directly to a specific job within cybersecurity. Sometimes applicants are passed over because there are different ways to define exactly what a hiring manager is looking for. When you talk about certifications, for example, you might have a specific certification like security plus, and a lot of people don't know that certified ethical hacker is very similar to security plus in terms of the skills that it actually measures. And so if a recruiter doesn't see a specific certification on someone's resume, they tend to look that person over because they might not have the specific certification that's called out in a specific job posting. And when you start to get down to the hiring managers, so hiring managers have really some unrealistic requirements when it comes to some things that are going on within cybersecurity. They're looking for experience that is not necessarily realistic. They want a large breadth of skills and experiences and they tend to hire by tradition, right? I went through this process. I was a system administrator or I was a network engineer and you need to have these skills in order to be in cybersecurity. And that's not necessarily the case anymore. A lot of folks that are coming up in cybersecurity now come up as a pure cybersecurity practitioner as opposed to someone that has a background in something like network administration or system administration. And then when you start to get into interviews, a lot of folks kind of have the stump to chump mentality, right? They come in with very, very specific questions looking for a very, very specific answers. And that's not a really true gauge of someone's skill. Anyone can write up a technical interview and ask for specific answers. But in practice, the vast majority of people that are actually going through and doing any kind of cybersecurity work, you're not necessarily pulling that information out of your head. You have guides and all kinds of different tools at your disposal to be able to understand exactly what's going on in a specific cybersecurity discipline. And you're not necessarily memorizing all of this stuff, right? So it's just not a realistic gauge of someone's understanding of exactly what's going on within the space. And then sometimes, because cybersecurity is a very, very small field, folks post a position with a specific candidate already in mind and already potentially selected. So people are already behind the eight ball. And then when you start to talk about the actual positions that are out there, a lot of people point out the fact that there are no true entry level positions within cybersecurity. And all positions require experience, which is very, very challenging for someone that's just out of college or someone that might come straight out of the military with a, you know, a small amount of background in cybersecurity maybe four years and, you know, entry level positions they're looking for six, eight, 10 years of experience. And then a lot of hiring managers are unwilling to take a chance on someone that hasn't done cybersecurity in a production environment before, because the demands on cybersecurity practitioners are very high. And that's a very reactive business. So in other words, I don't have time to spend, you know, training someone to do the job. And that's, you know, a really challenging tack to take when it comes to cybersecurity in general. If you are unwilling to train someone into that unicorn that you're looking for, then it's going to be very, very challenging for you to actually find a candidate that can actually meet your requirements. And then you talk about the internal problem, right? So as an individual, imposter syndrome is a real thing. It is something that plagues a lot of people within highly technical disciplines, cybersecurity to be included. And so you start to really doubt yourself when you see a job description that includes this huge laundry list of requirements, and you think to yourself, can I actually meet those requirements? Can I actually do the job? And the challenge sometimes is a job description is written poorly, right? It doesn't really express the actual skills required to do the job. It's just essentially this heightened laundry list of requirements that really isn't something that you actually need to do the job. And then you start to talk about career path. Is there a defined career path for a cybersecurity practitioner? How many cybersecurity practitioners do you know that are out there that are actually doing the job? And then you start to talk about career path. Is there a defined career path for a cybersecurity practitioner? How many cybersecurity practitioners do you know that are out there that are self-taught, right? They don't actually go through formal training, but they can do the job. And then just think about it from a discipline standpoint, right? When you look at that word cloud over there to the right, how many different ways can you go as a cybersecurity practitioner? What are all the different things that you can do, right? If you don't have specific skill sets in understanding and reverse engineering malware, can you be a malware analyst? If you don't understand automation, can you be a SIM engineer? A forensic engineer, can those folks actually come into the discipline without 10 or 15 years of experience and do the job? And, you know, my thoughts about it is yes, those folks can actually come in with a baseline and learn the job and they might not necessarily be effective right away, but they can definitely get to a point where you can actually do the job. So, you know, a lot of the things that we look at as well is gatekeeping, right? People are just lax to really understand exactly how a person thinks and whether or not they have an analytic mindset, right? And so they will kind of write somebody off without even thinking about whether or not the person has the potential to do the job.  So really what you want to do as an individual is you want to start to attack the problem. One of the things that you can do to attack the problem is train yourself to a standard set of skills. There are resources that are available to you by the nature of your demographics, right? An organization called Women in Cybersecurity will actually help women, black women that actually come in and actually help them to train and it's very low cost or no cost. SANS has, I think, no more, no less than six different academies that they run and they run those academies based on need, right? So if you are affiliated with an HBCU or if you're a veteran or if you're a woman, you can actually get into those academies at little to no cost and that will actually allow you to get certifications that will demonstrate your skill and also help you to actually get your start in the field. And then when you start to talk about things like programming, right? Black girls code and girls who code are a lot of different ways that you can actually get into the field and learn things that are going to help you in your career and do so again in a low cost or no cost manner. So let's talk about networking. So cybersecurity is a field that tends to attract people that are introverts. It just happens. That's just the way that it is. And so networking is a pet word to introverts. A lot of people really don't think about networking as a core skill that they need in order to do their job, but it is absolutely a skill that you need to do your job. So let's talk about my journey and the way that I kind of worked when it came to networking. So when I left the military and I went into consulting, consulting is an area where you have to be very, very networking focused. I went to a lot of different networking events when I first started in consulting, and I wasn't really comfortable. And I developed a strategy and that strategy was whenever I got to a networking event, I would immediately look to find the most gregarious and most, you know, very friendly person in the place. And I would introduce myself to that person. And typically what happens when you meet someone like that is they tend to drive the conversation. And the great thing about that is, I was able to talk to that person, get to know them, have them get to know me, and then I would use that person to actually meet everybody else in the room. So it's all about number one, finding a way to get face to face.  When you are networking as well, you want to make certain that you're offering help, you want to bring something to the conversation and you actually have a significant amount of value. I can't tell you how many mentoring or networking relationships that I have been in where that person's senior to me, but I can actually bring value to them by giving them a different perspective. So, you know, make certain that you're offering yourself up as help for anyone that's out there. It should be a symbiotic relationship. It should go two ways. It should be fearful when it comes to networking. Everybody wants to network and the reason why is because it's incredibly effective. So, don't feel like you don't have anything to offer when you enter into a networking relationship. You want to make certain that you're patient with a relationship, and that you don't expect too much right away. People tend to have a situation where they contact, they're contacting you and they might not necessarily have some front something for you right away. But you want to make sure that you cultivate that relationship because six months a year, two years down the road, that person might be the person that gives you the lead that you need in order to get the job that you really, really want. And you want to focus on the relationship, right? Make certain that you are not just in the relationship as an opportunity to network. You are in the relationship as an opportunity to potentially help this person out with something. To actually focus on getting to know more about them and having them get to know more about you. If you cannot express within that relationship exactly what it is that you want out of your career, then it's going to be very, very challenging for someone to help you to get that. Because if you don't know, they definitely will not know. I'm not a huge fan of social networks, but LinkedIn and other things like that are ways that you can actually use social networking as a force multiplier. So make certain that you are connecting yourself with people in that medium so that you're not losing that relationship.  Networking should be something that is a scheduled activity on your calendar. You should be setting aside time for networking because what it allows you to do is ensure that you are actually doing it and doing it in a purposeful manner. So if you are brand new to cybersecurity, you need to understand that you are not going to hit a home run with your first position in cybersecurity. It's just not going to happen. And the reason behind that is it's hierarchical, right?  It's going to happen, right? So you might have to spend some time in a security operations center doing long hours, 24 by 7 schedules, right? So you might have to pay your dues. So you want to be cognizant of that and not try to hit a home run with that first job.   That huge word cloud that I showed you a couple of slides back. It's going to help you to understand, okay, where do I fit in the cybersecurity kill chain and what job can I do that's actually going to energize me? And you want to pick a job, not necessarily that you're good at, you want to pick a job that energizes you. I see a lot of people get into cybersecurity and they get burnt out because they pick something they're good at, but they're not having fun doing what they're doing and it leads to burnout. If you pick something that energizes you, you will never work a day in your life because you're always doing something that you have a lot of fun doing. So let's talk to the senior leaders within cybersecurity in the room. We have to be willing to reach back and pull people along with us when we get to a space where we feel like we're successful and we have some influence. Unfortunately, it's not an equitable field, right? You have a lot of folks that are in the field that are getting a lot of hands up from folks that have been in the field for an extended period of time. And those folks tend to pull people along with them that look like them, right? We have to do the same. You have to be willing to reach back and pull people along with you and make certain that they are on your bench, right? So if you know for a fact that you have people that you're going to need in the future because you're building a team, you want to make certain that you're staying in contact with some of the junior folks that are in the field to ensure that when you have a position that's something that they can slide into, that you can offer that to them, give them the opportunity to come in and apply and actually have an opportunity to get that resume looked at. And engage with others within the field and your peers as your leader, if they have opportunities that are out there, you have to be willing to reach into your network and say, hey, listen, I think you might be a great fit for this job.  That's incredibly important, right? It's something that if you have a friend that's in the field that is looking for someone, you can't just point someone that's within your network to that job and not actually do that warm introduction, right? So reach out to your buddy that's looking for someone within the field and tell them, hey, listen, I want to give you this resume and I want you to talk to this person. Same situation with that practitioner that you're actually giving the resume for, right? Make sure you reach out to them and say, hey, I know someone that's looking for somebody that looks like you. Would you reach out to this person? Here's their phone number. Here's your email address, right? And consider your influence. So make certain that you, when you have that connection to someone within your network, you are forwarding that connection along. And you also want to make certain that you are visible within the field, right? So when you have the opportunity to volunteer and provide your expertise, you should do that. When you have the opportunity to be visible, you should do that. Studies have shown that children do things where they see themselves represented.  If they see black faces, they see female faces within the field and that's going to be incredibly beneficial. So if you have an opportunity to volunteer, if you have an opportunity to mentor, if you have an opportunity to do something good for the community, you should do that. So really, you know, the things that we talked about today are the challenge and the culture associated with cybersecurity, right? There is, you know, implicit bias when it comes to getting hired within the field. And there's a culture gap when you talk about getting folks into cybersecurity that are black faces. We talked about upskilling, ways that you can actually improve your odds of actually getting a job within the field. Networking is probably the most important thing that we spoke about during this presentation, and that's because it's the most effective thing. There are a lot of gatekeepers out there and one of the ways to get past those gatekeepers is to use your network. And you want to make certain that you set the right expectations. As a black face in the field, there are already so many barriers to your entry. You want to make certain that you are doing the right thing and taking the right positions to ensure that you have a chance within the field. And as a black leader, you have to reach back and you have to help others within the field to ensure that they have opportunities that you may not necessarily have had. Thank you so much for giving the opportunity to speak to you today. And I want to make certain that you have the opportunity to reach out to me. So if you have something that you would like to ask, something like you'd like to talk about, feel free to reach out to me on LinkedIn, feel free to reach out to me on Twitter, and I'll be happy to help you on your journey within cybersecurity.


I feel happy when I start painting and I sort of lose myself in it. I will start painting on one of these paintings and maybe eight o'clock in the morning and I'll be like four o'clock in the afternoon. I've forgotten to eat. I haven't had a drink of water. I haven't even gotten up from the chair because I'm so focused having such a good time. Even right now even even this interview right now is keeping me for my painting and all I keep thinking is oh I can't wait to finish this painting behind me. Really? But my whole life has sort of been like that. This is Mike Mozart of the Toy Channel and Jeepers Media on YouTube and boy do I have a goofy one today. I mean really. I mean really. I mean really. But I'll bet you never knew that I was an artist. What was I thinking? Well I'm known in the art world as MIMO. MIMO is short for Mike Mozart. So it's the MMI and the MMO to create MIMO. In the early days I liked being out doing graffiti art and street art. Back then it wasn't the crime it is now. Back then nobody cared. There were so many abandoned buildings where I grew up. You know I grew up in an old factory town that was dying. You know police would just drive by. No one ran to hide because nobody cared. And I did something different is when everyone else was graffitiing I was doing art. I would take out paint brushes and actually paint art on the walls. So early on I was approached by someone from the town that said how would you like to paint walls? We'll pay $50. Yeah that's great 50 bucks. You know where a kid that's like 14 years old get 50 bucks you know. And I probably did 50 walls over three or four years into a lot of walls. And they were up for years and made me happy to put artworks up that a lot of people could enjoy. I had an unusual thing happen to me that changed my life is that this beard started growing early. I was the only kid in school that was 13 years old that had a beard. So when I got my learner's permit to drive when I was 16 years old I thought you know what I'm gonna go to New York City. I'm gonna go to Big Puck Publishers and try to see if I can get any artwork jobs. And one of the reasons I thought I could do it is I looked a lot older than I was. So I went to Western Publishing and I went there and I got my first project to ever do. It was a Mickey and Minnie's Day at the Beach probably about 1977 and I was worried because my family didn't have any means. I'd have to put myself through college. Instantly I had a way to go to college. My life turned around so much from that. Early on I learned a lot. My struggle is growing up not growing up with any money not growing up with any means. Taking initiative to do something that was crazy. People thought I was crazy. You got your learner's permit. You're gonna drive to the train station in Stamford, Connecticut. You're gonna take a train into New York City by yourself. And I was picking up book jobs and it gave me a lot of satisfaction to know that I was creating something that other kids would be coloring in. And it made me happy and I was earning a lot of money and I've helped a lot of other artists along the way the same way. I encourage them. I take them to publishers. I introduce them to the right people and it makes me feel so good to do that. But it was fun. It was fun to create beautiful artwork that other people would enjoy. Wow. It's funny looking back on that. I haven't really thought about the early days. I've always loved drawing pictures. That was what I did all the time. If I'd spare time as a child I love to draw pictures. As it turns out my whole career has been mostly doing cute artwork. But I like things that make me smile. Doing care bears and wasls and my little pony. I did everything. It made me happy to do that artwork. How could you be unhappy to look at all those little smiling faces all day? That's why I do it. I mean really still to this day. I am trying to communicate something. But it's not a popular thing to say if you're a street artist graffiti artist. If you're a street artist graffiti artist you're supposed to be against the machine. You know against Wall Street. Against the man up there oppressing you. And that wealth is bad. And the work I've been doing particularly this this work is I believe that success is something that shouldn't be an evil thing. You should be happy. A lot of people are successful. They can get there by treading on the you know the impoverished people. They got there because they worked hard. So what's wrong with having artwork that rejoices in your success? Where you could buy a painting and hang out on your wall and see it and make you smile that you worked hard and you're successful and you you've earned a lot of money but you've had a lot of fun doing it. If you look at my paintings it's not just about money it's about fun. It's about enjoying what you have earned. What you actually worked hard towards. I didn't get in the position I am in art by sitting at home and thinking about what I might do someday. Everything I have gone into I've wanted to be a big success and I want my artwork to have that feeling of be successful and enjoy it. I want to tell the world that it's okay to be successful.


I honestly wanted to start this video with wow or oh my goodness because this is fantastic vertical construction started but not only is it started it's gone on really quickly I mean look at this thing look at the oh I'm so excited not only do I not mind the colors at all anymore I'm in love with the colors I don't know what it is I was definitely on the bandwagon where I was like the colors should have been reversed the support should have been black and the track should have been yellow but I'm actually really liking it now I like that it's unique I love the trains they're unique as well but the colors really do pop I mean that's a really dark black I like that it's more like bright than it is matte so like I'm really loving that I know that's gonna fade over time but I'm just really liking the colors and how they pop and I can't wait to see the coaster come along even more Kennywood's doing a fantastic job of keeping us up-to-date on social media I'm really liking how parks are doing that now Canada's Wonderland's been really on top of it Carol Wins has been on top of it and now Kennywood is really on top of it so thank you to them for sharing all these images and videos so I'll link them down below these all these photos and videos belong to Kennywood Park on Facebook and Twitter they also have a YouTube channel I cannot wait for 2019 because I'm so excited to get on this coaster you guys already know that though so not too much to say that the pictures and videos don't so the first inversion for steel curtain has been completed now I guess they're doing all the load of the groundwork because this is kind of like a build it from the bottom up type style coaster so that's all I guess I really have to say on that a lot of the supports are done for the groundwork so they're probably gonna build steel curtain from the ground up seal seal the load of the ground elements be constructed and then you'll start to see it be formed upward so I'm guessing the lift hill and the you know banana rolls what I think it's called the higher-up inversion and the higher parts the ride will be done last but yeah that's all I have to say on steel curtain right now it looks like we'll have updates pretty frequently because Kennywood is keeping this very up-to-date so hopefully you guys enjoyed this quick construction update on steel curtain we'll have plenty more to come thanks so much for watching don't forget to hit that like button comment down below if you're excited for steel curtain and share the studio for others to enjoy thanks so much for watching guys bye