If you want to pump your body and expand your mind, there's only one place to go. Mind pump, mind pump, with your hosts, Sal DeStefano, Adam Schaefer, and Justin Andrews. In this legendary episode of Mind P- This is our first 800th episode. This is, yes, happy 800 boys. We did it, confetti. What does that even mean? I don't know. I have no idea. People celebrating all their numbers like that, and I'm like, what does this mean? It's been three, Doug, what was it? Was it three years, three and a half years? What do we have now? Three and a half years. Three and a half years, 800 episodes. Maybe this does mean something. Someone got their calculator here. Someone needs to figure out for me, what is it? It's 10,000 hours before you're considered a master. Oh, we're not a master yet. Well, you got to do 90, there's 90 minutes, probably is the average podcast episode. Yep, so 800 times 90. Tell us how far away we are from becoming a master. We divide that by how many minutes in an hour? Why am I so tired? Why? So it's what's the average. It's 1200 hours. Long way to go. Oh my God, 1200 hours. 1200? Are you sure you did the math? 1000, 1200 hours. Yeah, if each episode is an hour, it's 800 hours.  Well, it's good news, bro. That means that. Yeah, we have a lot of growing. As good as you think we are. Damn.  Let's talk about awesome. This is me at sucking. Wow, I'm going to get really good. This is like stage one. Anyway, happy 800th episode everybody. This episode, we go all over the place. We started talking about growth that we've experienced from podcasting, the business of podcasting and advertising, things that we've never shared on the show, Justin shares something very, very personal about his sexual preferences. Then we go to, we talk about what sets us off, the time Doug almost killed everybody, taking action in spite of less than perfect circumstances, the danger of unearned wisdom, learning how to enjoy the process. We talked about, oh, by the way, one of the greatest things that's ever happened in mind pump history happened today on the 800th episode. Justin gave an analogy that made sense. Oh, you write that down. There is a monument. Only took 800 episodes. Perfect sense. We talked about developing a taste for healthy foods, how different training can give your body a different look. The lack of good programming in the industry, I also talked a lot about map split. I'm following the program myself and my body seems to be responding very, very well. It looks incredible. It looks incredible. You should see the way Adam's looking at it right now. Look at all those veins. Yep, don't look down there, please. Map split is available on our site, mindpumpmedia.com, as well as our maps anywhere program, which is half off, as well as all of our bundles where we take multiple maps programs and put them together. That's all at mindpumpmedia.com. And then we end the show with talking about the future of Mind Pump. And before we get into the episode, a thank you from the staff here at Mind Pump for being with us this entire time. We love you. Enjoy. Thank you, guys. Watch, the buzzing will be gone.  There it is. I'm in! Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, calm down. There you go. Let me turn you down real quick here. Try to make my presence known. You know you're in trouble when Sal gives you advice on tech. I know. You know what I mean? Or when Sal speaks in a third person. The sky is falling. That'd be like me teaching you how to play football or something. You know what I mean? Like, wow, I am terrible. That would be the deal. You know, I was tripping on this the other night. I think I'd just give up. And it could have been cannabis induced, not sure. But at one point, we were all sperms. Yeah. You know what I mean? You go back far enough. That is what you were thinking about last night. Well, trip off that, right? Do you think you were aware that you were a sperm? You looked just like a tadpole. Yeah. Like tiny.  Now, here, here, here. Yeah, kind of sounded like that. That's a sound. Yeah, it's just, yeah. I bet you were the- Slythery way through.  Oh yeah. You were bouncing on- I was trying like every, I was like hitting walls and trying to penetrate. Yeah, you were bouncing off the walls.  But I kept going, I was like pursuing, you know? I made it, made it to the home stretch. Adam was talking to all the other sperms, like listen guys, follow me. Yeah, go ahead. Then you'd like sabotage them. Yeah, let me show you where to go. They go the wrong way. Yeah, yeah, I was lost because I don't ever know where I'm going. Yes. But I, it was luck. Like everybody went this way. I'm over here and I'm lucky. You know what I mean? Anyway, it was a thought. I'm pretty sure that's what happened. It sounds like a high thought. Do you guys realize what today is? What's today? 800, dude. Ooh, yeah. Episode 800. That's a lot, man. Dude, I've only known you two for three years, right? A little over three years, right?  But I feel like we're friends who've been friends for 10 years. Yeah, I almost feel guilty about our friendship. It's kind of weird. Why do you, guilty? Well because of- Did you cheat on us? Well, you can tell us. I feel guilty because of all my other friends that I've had my entire life that I consider like my best friends. Like, I may know more about you two motherfuckers than even them. Well, have you talked to them for over a thousand hours? Well, that's just it, right? I know. I mean, maybe some of them are pretty close. I mean, I've spent some years with a couple. I mean, I got buddies that go all the way back to fourth grade, right? So I mean, we've definitely put some time in but we've logged some serious time in a very short duration.  Imagine if you had some friends and every day for like Monday through Friday, right? Every day, Monday through Friday, you meet with them and all you guys do is talk, like really talk for- Like figure things out. For like two hours, three hours, four hours. Personally and to help people. Yeah, dude. You know, I was- That's crazy. Yesterday I was, I spoke for a mastermind group for Jills and it was just all business type questions and it's one of the questions I got asked was about partnerships. Oh, is this when you got all emotional? No, no, no, no, no. What did I get all emotional? You did, you sent the very- The very- Very sentimental. Very nice.  I should read it. I didn't read it to Sal. Oh, last night. I should read it out loud. You're gonna put me on front. You're gonna put me on front. No, it was very nice, dude. I know. You know what he said in the back. You know what? You're right. Sal, people need to know. Adam is a really nice guy. Yeah, I don't know. I think people don't know that enough. No, they have no idea. They're all afraid. We always talk about how much of an asset is. Yeah, this was at 9.48 at night, by the way. And it's a, I love you guys. It's how it starts. Yes. I've never had so much fun building something in my life. It's very nice. Had a moment of appreciation of you three men today while talking about building a business. I feel so blessed to have found you all. And I sent the eggplant emoji. I know. I was gonna do sperm coming out of that, but I had to tie it together. You know what's funny? It's like when one of us gets sentimental, because at some point all of us do that. The other two guys have to check over it. And on that check up, you don't even have to kind of bring us together. So what happened on this? So we were talking about, they asked me questions about partnerships and the success of Mind Pump and how do you suggest going about finding a partner? And I said, man, that's a really tough one for me to answer because I've had a lot of partnerships in the past and none of them obviously still exist. And I personally don't recommend it to anybody. If you can build something by yourself as the sole owner CEO of it, obviously if you're gonna build something really big, eventually you'll need people.  Well, it's like picking a spouse for reals. The odds are definitely against you. Bro, it's almost as important, because when you're- Maybe more. Well, I mean, if you have kids- I think we talk to each other and deal with stuff that's challenging probably more than a lot of marriages to- Oh yeah. Like constantly. Yeah. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. I can see that for sure. Well, you think about it.   But I mean, we literally are in the thick of things all the time and with building a business, like raising a child or multiple children, I would feel like this has to be like, because there's so many different legs to the business. And you'll have differing opinions of how to do it. You'll have different styles. And we have these. I told them that on this call, I said, even though we've made it work out, I said, I'm really blessed for the partners that I have. And I really believe that it only would work where we're all at in our lives currently. Totally. Yeah, because I just- Totally. As massive of egos as everybody has, at the same time, we're also really humble and open-minded, so which sounds really conflicting or contradicting each other. I just think that it would have never worked any other time in my life or with any other people. So although I was sitting here talking about it to these people, I was like, man, I really don't recommend it. Now, does that mean it's not possible? I said, what happens? And what had happened to me in the past is you typically gravitate to people that are like you because you're friends with them already or you like what they're doing or you're both in a similar business and they're successful and you're successful. And so you think the merging of the two of you will create super success. But really what people may not know about my relationship with Justin was what made us so tight back when he worked with me was he complimented me. We were very different. We were very different about how we went about conducting personal training business. And I saw that and I knew that he was a really good compliment to my style where my weakness is where I felt he had a lot of strengths and vice versa. So, and I feel like Sal found Doug the same similar way. Like I feel like the relationship that you have established with Doug, yeah, you guys liked each other. Yeah, your clients, it's not, but a lot of Doug's attributes and strengths within this business are your weaknesses. For sure. And Doug, you with you, vice versa. So I think the fact that you guys had kind of already found each other and made a really strong connection and bond both relationship-wise and business-wise. And then Justin and I did too. And then it just so happens to be that, I've got kind of like a little bit of Sal in me, I feel like. And just like Sal probably has, right? Just the tip, yeah. Not too much of a tip. I tried nothing. I looked at Justin. I was 40 and slipped there, that's fine. But don't you feel like, and I'm looking over at Justin and Doug right now, like Justin and Doug have some similarities to them. Right, they have some similarities and then Sal and I have some similarities. But yet, everybody has a very, very unique and different attributes that really contribute to the overall success of the business. And we've had many things that have happened within this business where one guy has taken the lead and the other guy has just let the other guy lead. It's funny you say that because I was watching like this short, it was like a documentary type thing on SEALs, Navy SEALs and also these like super high level military units. And what these high level military units, it's one of the things that they'd learn how to do is they learn how to, in any situation, somebody will take the lead and everybody else will get behind. And it can be a different person each time depending on the situation. It can rotate. Well, they call it, I mean, I think they even talk about this in what's it called, Stealing Fire, right? Where it's that flow state where it's unspoken. They know they get into it and it's not a problem. It's not a challenge. It's not an ego challenge or whatever like they just do it. And that I feel like, if you can find that with a partner where it feels seamless. And part of that I think is you have to be, you have to be confident enough to lead, but you also have to be humble enough to follow. And it usually you don't come together. They usually don't come together. Right, it seems like totally different pursuits. Yes. But you know, at the same time, what's interesting is I think that we all have such massive vision. And I think that the end goal as far as we're all trying to get to somewhere that we all understand as far as like, well this is like the pinnacle of helping people and then also being successful and like thriving individually. And to do that is to recognize your weaknesses and to see them and see strengths and other people that you know can carry you even further. Whereas yes, I can pile all this on top of my back and I can operate like that. It is just not as effective. No, and there's nothing better than, and I've told so many people this, there's nothing better than identifying a strength in someone and then just observing and watching and learning from that person's strength or attribute. And a lot of people have trouble doing that because you have to admit first of all that someone's better than you at something. Which is really tough for most people. It's hard to do, especially if you feel competitive with them or maybe you don't even like them. I mean, I like you guys so I'm not talking about you guys here but trust me, I've learned from people I don't like because I don't like them as a person but then there's something that they do or the way they do something where I'm like, wow, that is really impressive. On that note right there, that's a really good point or something to extend on is that a lot of times when we don't like something about somebody else or a person, a lot of it's because of our own insecurity about that. Like because they're a certain way. It's a mirror. Yeah, it is. Especially if it really triggers you. Right, if it triggers you and bothers you, like, oh, that really annoys me. Like, well, what does it annoys you? And maybe it annoys you because it's a weakness of yours because he does that really, really well or she does that really, really well and almost to a point where it turns you off. But why does it turn you off or why does it annoy you? And maybe that's because you maybe don't have that skill set or you don't have it at that level. And so there's something to take from that for sure. I always try and catch that. Again, going back, we talked a long time ago about how I'd evaluate my day of the state changes, of emotion, where would I get all angry about something or what would piss me off or what would excite me? Those are all flags for you to be like, go deeper into that. Like why am I feeling this way? This is one of the reasons why I really look forward. Like honestly, and 100% look forward to getting older or aging because so far for me personally and a lot of people, okay, not everybody, but most people or a lot of people, as I've aged, I've become wiser in the sense that I start to let go of the bullshit that tends to hold me back.    And something that's happened to me as I've aged, as I've learned to not only identify that, that's me, but then also be okay with letting it go.  For example, if you're talking about somebody who has trouble losing weight, so they put these obstacles in front of them to prevent them from losing weight. One of the reasons why some of them are afraid of removing those obstacles is, well, what happens after I lose this friend called food? Like, how am I gonna be? What about the connections I have with other people? This is part of my identity. I don't have this thing now that I can bury myself in. I don't have this thing that's gonna take me away from the present. I don't have this distraction. I don't have this friend. I don't have this whatever. Now that I remove this, what am I, who am I, what is this? And the reality is making big changes, removing those things out of your way. They do create big change in your life and that can be very scary. It's, look, when I train, and this is a real statistic, when you have a couple that's overweight and unhealthy and one of them finally makes the decision to get fit and healthy and all that stuff, the rate of divorce or the rate of them cleaning, it goes through the roof because you change so much fundamentally and that's scary. It's very, very scary. I've known people who've grown up in situations where they were just not a lot of success around them. Maybe their parents weren't good with money and they've always been around people that didn't do well with it and didn't aim for high achievements and they're just surrounded by it. And I've met people who had everything it took to be, who were very talented and everything it took to be successful, you could tell they were afraid to be because they knew they'd leave everybody else behind. Like who am I now? I can't hang around with you. I don't connect with these people anymore so they revert back to this block that's in front of them to remain the same. And so something that I've found as I've gotten older is like, it's easier.  And I appreciate that about you guys. You guys seem to do the same way. Yeah, I mean it's tough because a lot of people being complacent and kind of building your safety net up is like a goal of a lot of people. I wanna get a job that's gonna provide me and be consistent and I can sort of like have this ecosystem set up where I don't have to really be challenged anymore. I don't have to be uncomfortable. Like everything is about relieving a lot of that uncomfortable feeling where it's a trap, man. It seems like and it sounds to a lot of people very appealing, but to me it's just living in that it feels like just a slow gradual death of like who I am. Like if I'm not growing, what else am I doing? I'm literally just sitting there and observing and then just kind of going through life without any, any thoughts that come through my head that are even challenging me to do anything different. It's too comfortable and I know a lot of people like this that are still in that kind of mindset. Yeah, one of the worst places to be is to not feel or to not challenge yourself. That is a very scary. You're just numb. It's a scary place to be. There's that quote that I like to read all the time but Teddy Roosevelt, the man in the arena at the end it's like basically don't be one of those timid souls that feels neither victory nor defeat. Like the person who doesn't even step into the arena, never takes a chance. Sure you never lose, but you also never win and besides that you never feel. You know what I mean? You're just in one place and I feel like as you start to respect that more, understand that more as you get older, at least some people do and that's where wisdom comes from. So I think you're right Adam, had we all met 15 years ago and tried to do this, still would have been fun. I'm sure we still would have had some level of success but it wouldn't be what it is now. I don't think at all what it is now. No, I don't think so at all. And one of the, for me at least, one of the best things about what we're doing is there's a really good purpose behind it. You know what I mean? It's not like we're just, I mean I guess anything you create that people want is got some value of course but I feel really good about what we create. You know what I mean? I feel like we're communicating good messages. We're helping people sift through all the baloney in fitness to help themselves along the way but also we're honest. There's a lot of integrity in what we do and I really appreciate that because it feels good. I've made money before where I didn't have this same sense of purpose and it's different. It's not nearly as fulfilling. This is the most fulfilling thing I think I've ever done, profession. There's a lot more panic in that scarcity attached to doing something just for money and surviving and this doesn't feel like that at all because of that. I have a purpose. I wake up and I wanna do something. I wanna research something. I wanna say something that entertains people or makes them feel better or educates and I feel like it's so crazy because this provides all of that. Just sitting here talking. Do you guys ever wonder though if we're in the honeymoon stage? God, that's a long honeymoon. Maybe, huh? What if we hate each other? No, it's like five years. And I don't even think that but I also try and challenge myself with because I agree with you guys. I feel the same way. I could echo everything you said but I always still like to challenge my thought process and like, okay, so if you say that Adam that you're so comfortable and you're okay with letting go and moving on and changing the seasons of your life, what if this just represents a new season and in six years from now, all of us are totally not into it anymore and we're into something. Am I gonna be okay with that? Will I feel devastated? Does that mean I failed at this or whatever? You know what I'm saying? I don't think so at all. I think if that happens, if that ends up being a place that we get to then we'll be okay with it. I mean, we'll all acknowledge it and be like, okay, well, that was great.  Sometimes we try to also put, like I just talked about putting blocks in front of yourself.  You know what I mean? Like, oh my God, I'm so in love.  What if it sucks in five years? What if I lose this person?  I mean, of course right now, if you ask me, I wish it would be awesome like this all the time, but yeah, we'll deal with it then. Yeah, who cares?  It's great now. I don't know what the future holds. I don't think, I don't know. I have no idea. If you really were to ask me, are we gonna be doing this in 10 or 15 years exactly this? Of course not. It'll be a different version of it. Something. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I guess just in my own mind, I feel like it'll definitely be different. Like we'll be doing other things because that's just how we are. We wanna evolve and improve things. And so it may feel different, it may look different, but again, it may just be this. And then everything else just kind of working for itself. One thing, it's funny, Justin and I had coffee with what's his name, Sean Stevenson, from a model health, I think, show. And he's like... What do they call it? The Mr. Rogers of Mind Pump? Yeah, yeah. The Mind Pump Mr. Rogers. Yeah, Mind Pump Mr. Rogers, yeah. Some of one of our fans said that. Won't you be my neighbor? One of our fans said that. Is that right?   I thought that was hilarious. That's funny. I'm looking at him more as like very white, like smooth. Yeah, hey there, smooth radio. Fitness and wellness, yeah. Anyway, cool guy.  Cool guy, that's why I'm saying this.  I think he expected me to say like eight years because of the amount of episodes that we've done.  He's like, you've recorded 800 episodes in three years. I'm like, dude, we do five a week. Yeah, we don't really recognize that is significant. It's different. Well, I don't think it's that. To me, it's not that significant. I think it surprises a lot of these podcasters because again, it's the old guard. It's how things were done before. But when you look at radio DJs and radio TV and all that stuff like that. Exactly, that's true. I mean, they're on like five days a week. Yeah, they're on five days a week. It's not that impressive. It's the norm. It's the standard. What I love about this business and what excites me all the time is that it is so green. I love being the people that can come in and actually raise the bar and set the new standard for things. I was just talking to you guys off air about just the way we're gonna handle sponsorships. Like I was so blown away when we've started to get like real advertised money coming in and people constantly reaching out to advertise on the show that we had to create a department for it. Then I became very surprised by the way they handled all of it. Just the processing of the money and then the follow up on it and the making sure all the URLs are getting connected.  And it's not- What an opportunity. Oh, such a great opportunity to streamline all of it.   The reason why it's been that way is because up until about two, three years ago, the money that was in podcasting for advertising was really low.  It went up in one year from 2016 to 2017, over 84% and they're expecting it to jump even more the following couple years. So what's happening right now. It's all new. So what's happening right now is we're getting this flood of big brands that are now coming in and realizing like, holy shit, we're gonna stop doing radio, stop doing television. It's better for us to find these podcasts that are in our niche and market and advertise with them because they can convert it a much higher rate. You've also mentioned all the radio hosts that have now like simultaneously run a podcast because it's like they have to put their, they have to head to their bets. They have to see if they're gonna move. Yeah, the life wraps there. And then I see these guys that have been doing this for, and some girls that have been doing this podcasting game for the last eight, nine years and they just haven't evolved.  Don't worry. Biggest mistake you can make in business. Biggest mistake is to not evolve, be afraid to evolve because nothing will destroy you faster and it doesn't matter how big and powerful you are. What are the books on those ones? I remember these. My iceberg is melting and who moved my cheese? There you go, there you go. But I mean, I can name several companies that did that, like Blockbuster. They were a massive, powerful company, gone. They were gone almost overnight because they failed to evolve.  Oh, that's the one that we talked about, right? The generation growing up on the iPhone. Yes, and some of the stats that they're coming out of that is just, it's crazy. And what they're saying is that everything that you've experienced in business and stuff before is accelerated times 10 and it's compounding, Moore's Law. We're seeing it now really at a much faster rate. It's crazy where trends or waves of doing things will be, it's the way to do things. And just when everybody starts learning about it, it's like- Different. It's different. Yeah, snap of a finger. Yeah, dude, you gotta be moving. You gotta be moving on stuff. Yeah, it seems to me the podcast, I noticed too, like a lot of people were relying a lot on these networks, like the podcast one and like they were like relying solely on them to get them advertisement too. And so it was like you heard like the same exact companies on like everybody's podcast and it's because like, that's like the only structure that was in place. You know, in the podcasting world that I saw. Well, it was a combination of both that it's the networks and then also they just were limited companies that were advertising. You know what I'm saying? Like if you're in fitness, there's like 20 big companies that were spending- Even interested. They're all supplements. Yeah, they're all supplements or whatever. You know what I'm saying? There's only a handful of them. And here's the other thing to consider is that when you're broadcasting, which is like radio and TV, you know, when you're listening to commercials on there, they don't reflect, they never reflect or typically don't reflect or at least in a small percentage, the show that they're coming on. So in other words, I could be watching a TV show and sure the advertisers know that there may be a certain age demographic or whatever, but it's not very specific to the TV show. When you advertise with podcasting and you're running a sponsor, you're kind of connected to them. And so it's much more personal and it's different. It's not just a random bunch of commercials. It's like here are companies that we have to make sure we vet them, but also that kind of compliment the brand, that kind of go along with our message. People that we know will benefit us besides just the money that they pay us, this is different than it's been in the past. It hasn't been like this in the past where you watch a TV show.  Here's a commercial for TV dinners. I know, at least has a reflection. Well, there's the message on the show. There's a little more thought put into that than you guys think. There's, you know, they do... I just think because the net is so, they have to cast such a wide net. Right, right, right. But even our net would look pretty wide if, you know, because if we were doing, you know, 10 million listens every episode, it would be, you know, our net would be much wider and broader and those 10 million people, even though we're a health and fitness podcast, I bet you are those 10 million. Well, 100,000 drinks soda. Well, here's an example. You know what I'm saying? So it's like... Here's an example, though. One of the examples. Not that we would advertise Coca-Cola. Well, how often would you watch a TV show? Let's say you watch Modern Family and the actors in Modern Family are the ones talking about the sponsors. Oh, yeah. See what I'm saying? That's one of the big reasons. Well, now that's the future, right? So we see it happening right now with YouTube and then, you know, today IGTV came out. You know, so we're seeing this. You're gonna see that now. TV is, yes, dead. It's moving on from that. And then kids that are growing up now, they are following what their, you know, influencers that we call them right now, which I think is so funny. We, you know, they're following them. They're listening to them for what brands are they using or what are they like? And those people are becoming more powerful than celebrities. We're right in the middle of that transition. So it still kind of works. So you still see a commercial with Shaquille O'Neal or you still see a commercial, you know, with somebody that's with Tom Cruise or a big actor that, but that's, it's starting to fade. And you're starting to see these YouTube stars and Instagram stars, you know? It's a, it's an interesting time to be a part of all this and to watch the transition. Oh, that's exciting. So we've done so many episodes.  And you had said something earlier, Adam, I thought was brilliant. You said, like, we know a lot about each other. Maybe we could come up with something we don't know that we think is embarrassing. So last night, embarrassing. Last night, that was good because well, last night I had this thought and this is something I'm going to try and challenge myself to do this. So I hate putting it on air because then people are going to follow up with me. Why aren't you doing that? But when I have these random thoughts of stuff that maybe we've never talked about or kind of challenges you guys question wise think a little bit more, you know, like deeper into yourself. I want to do that.  And I'm telling Katrina, like I can only tell her this, right? But I'm like, okay, well, if I put myself out there, I could share that. But I was like, so what made me think of something was okay, what is something about, I know the guys have something there and I can't be the only one here. If there is something that you either do or you like or that you're into that the other two guys will totally tease you and make fun of you. And so I wanted to ask you guys, is there something that you either do or you're into that the other two of us would make fun of you for doing or tease you? So I've put so much already out there. Like you guys know I like small dogs and cats.  I don't know if I've ever said this before. I'm not the greatest swimmer. Now I don't, I can swim enough to not drown. But why, that's a surprise at all. It doesn't surprise me at all. I don't know why. I can picture you swimming. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I can picture you swimming. So you want to know something crazy about this? I just picture you walking into the water about like to your waist and then walking right back out.  Yeah, yes, yes. So here's the thing about that. You want to know what's crazy about this? Just panic. So my mom doesn't know how to swim and it's terrified of water. Like she will not go in any water above her knees. She gets so scared, right? So I grew up with that. Now when I was a kid, my aunt had a pool and we were there every single weekend.  And I swam. No, I swam all the time. I was a great swimmer, go underwater, touch the bottom, play, float, you know, tread water. No problem as a kid. But I think my mom influenced me with her fear over the years and I didn't swim for a while, you know, as I got older because I just didn't go to the pool or whatever. What's the longest gap in your life as a kid that you not swim? God, years because, yeah, as I got older. Like more than five years? Yeah, because I'd managed, you know, I'd managed gyms and worked and I just never went. That's a big deal though. Yeah, exactly. I'm the complete opposite. Like I'm definitely like a swimmer. I've talked about that. Love to swim. But you go in the water a lot, right? Oh, every year I'm always swimming in a pool or swimming in a lake. Okay, so I didn't swim, swim for a long time when I was managing gyms.   I think I was just getting anxious. Oh, yeah. I'd just stop doing it. Now it's the point now where if I'm in deep water, like I won't drown. Oh, God, did you know? But I can feel. You know I'm gonna push him in the pool at least once. What if you kill me? He's so vulnerable right now.  I won't let you drown. But I gotta push you in the pool one time. Dude, it's weird, you know what I mean? And you guys are making fun of me about that. Couple of assholes, couple of one, two jerks. What about you, Justin? Oh man, I think I was trying, nothing like that, but like. Nothing that bad. Nothing that horrible. Well, it's that bad. It just reminds me of what happened to me not too long ago where I was like really, really into the song on the radio. And it was kind of like that movie where they both kind of get into this horrible song and I think it was like a Tommy boy or whatever.  Anyways, it was evanescent. So I'm like really like deep down.  And it was like. It's a female rocker. Yeah. And I was like at a stoplight and some dude was looking at me and like there's just this fear and this, this like, oh my God, like I'm really into this song. But I just like felt so like judged, you know, like immediately. And I was like, if the guy saw me doing this and I was like really getting into it. Like I was like into that song. And Courtney has seen this before, like with like certain things. I don't want to like show everybody. I'm like really into it. But I'm into some pretty fucking. Yeah. Well, that's not bad at all. Well, it's a chick rocker. Yeah, I would only, you know what? The only reason why I would make funny you about that is cause I know you'd be self conscious about it. Yeah, exactly. That's the only reason why I put, you know, it's funny. I have a story. I have a story surrounding my, the swim thing that I said cause you just reminded me. I went to, when I was in Kauai, I think it was either Kauai or Thailand. It was Kauai with Jessica. So this is last year. Okay. This is last year. So we went on one of those, we do one of those day trips where they take you out on a boat to go to different places to snorkel. No, it was Thailand to go snorkel. And so we went to like Monkey Island or whatever. And they parked the boat and like everybody get off and snorkel around. There's all these beautiful tropical fish and whatever in the water.   I'm going to get in the water. Yeah. I got the flippers on. So I get in there and I'm like treading water and I'm doing okay. But I can feel that I'm having issues breathing cause it's almost like it's making me anxious. Oh my goodness. But I'm like, fuck, I got to fight this, right? So anyway, we're doing this the whole time. And it was like, we were out there for four hours going from different spots. Now, at this point, have you communicated to Jessica? Okay, she knows. She knows. I've told her and she's laughing or whatever. And so at one point I put on a life vest. So I'm snorkeling with a life vest. Like waste deep water.  No, no, no. It's deep water because you're snorkeling. So I'm like floating. Hey, I want to remake the starter pack for sound.  You know, the blow. Water wings. Yeah, water wings. Well, no, so here's the worst part, right? So because, I guess because I was nervous I was drinking a ton of water. So then I had to pee because again, we're out there for four hours or something like that.  No bathrooms, big deal. Just get in the ocean and take a piss. Now, do you know how hard it is to pee when you're anxious?  You want to tighten up.  You're like, huh, right? So I'm in the water and I'm trying to tread and the waves are coming at me.  I was swimming and I can't pee, dude.  Wow, you have to be really. So I'm in the water and I'm getting angry.   At one point I told Jessica, we're on the boat going to the next island and I'm like, I can't like, I've never had to pee so bad. I thought I was going to hurt myself.  Like she was like, egging me on. I was like so close.  I'm going to, there's kids in here, whatever. I'm going to, we're in Thailand anyway.  Terrible. That is a really good one. Although I can see. Yeah, I got to think of another one. That's a really good one, man. When I was watching, so I'll give you mine, like it wasn't nowhere near as in detail as that. Like I'm trying to get out of something that I have like a major insecurity that surfaces every now and then. I was watching Devil Loves or Devil Wears Pirata. Oh yeah.  I've watched that all day. Pirata. I've been watching that movie. I don't know ever since it came out. I've seen it so many times and I gravitate towards it and I catch myself. Dude, you're really into fashion. This is not a big surprise. Well, it's a total chick film though.  Yeah, but you're, there's a lot of things about you that's a girl. You know what I mean?  You're like comfortable with it. You're not girly, okay? No. But you're definitely, there's definitely a woman, you have like a man and a woman living in your body. It's like a woman on the outside, for sure. Man on the inside. For sure. Actually, we all have a little bit of that. Yeah. In straight, in straight. Yeah, we'll keep going Adam. No, no, that was it. That was it. I was just saying that that was something that I know that you would tease me about. It's not that it's weird.  But it really is like a top favorite movie. That's funny. I like watching cartoons. I still watch cartoons by myself. Yeah. By myself all the time. I play Legos. Well, you watch the good ones though. Like Ren and Stimpy and like the adult type cartoons. Adult cartoons to me don't care. I'll watch those. Yes, but I will also watch, I love old Tom and Jerry and I love all the old, cool cartoons from when we were kids.  Like the one, you know what I'm talking about?  The Hatter Barbarist. Oh yeah.  I don't watch it all the time. In fact, when I used to own my wellness studio, I had some cardio machines and I would do cardio and I'd watch cartoons and everybody used to get a kick out of it. All the members thought it was the most funniest thing in the world. Are there any movies that you watch Justin that you'd embarrass that you enjoy? What's the girliest movie that you like? Oh my God. I doubt he would watch a girly movie. Yeah, it's tough for me because I, again, this is where I don't know if I idolized my grandpa growing up and he's like the most masculine guy ever, right? My dad's masculine too, but he's like, he's a softy. He's a big softy. And so I was always trying to push that side of me away. Like I shovel those tears back inside me. I can't let it happen. So I don't know that I've like, I think maybe Bridesmaids, but that's funny. It's a funny, it's a really funny movie.  So for instance, Courtney and I, we didn't even exchange vows when we got married. I don't think that's how that works. This is stupid, like, yeah, but like the sappiness of it, right? So everything like, I can think of, and I was actually like, one of the questions was like, what's the most romantic thing you've done? Yeah, do you do any romantic for you?  You know, I'm gonna do something practical and- I feel like that was a jab at me or something. By my side, that's actually more of my brother.  So I was like, think, what am I talking about, dude? I don't even remember. You know what I wanted to ask you guys? Another question I wanted to ask you is, what have you learned about including Doug on this? What triggers each of us? Like what are like, what sets us off when we get frustrated or mad?  Oh, I don't know, I'm trying to think right now. We get pissed off a lot of the same stuff. I don't know, it's hard to sit Doug's out. I know it happens. Oh, this is Al. Oh, he's got my shirt. Anytime there's a technical difficulty. There is no tolerance. Jesus Christ. Dude, it happened. It happened today and in fact, I'm almost nervous to do anything anymore. Dude, outside. So here's the deal. I think that's why it's happening more. This goes right back to what I said though, that's a sign of his insecurity because he knows he can't do nothing about it and it drives you crazy. I mean, that's exactly what that is. Well, let me tell you what happened today.  Doug forgot to hit record. Dude, no, no, no. Kind of like that. I'm actually halfway through the video and I'm on fire and here's the thing. When I do videos, oftentimes there's no script, there's nothing and I just flow, I go for it. And it's hard to duplicate it once you hit it. Once you hit it once. Yeah, once you hit it once, that's it, right? So I'm going, I'm halfway through. Doug steps on the stage, I know something's wrong because he never steps on the stage because otherwise it moves the camera. And he's looking at the camera and I'm still going but I know something went wrong.   Yeah, I know. But it's okay. It is what it is. I can count on one. Doug actually probably knows the answer this best because Doug is definitely more of the observer and watches all this stuff like that. Can you think of all the times that each of us have been mad over stuff and what it was that typically causes it? I know with you, Adam, if something gets dropped, the ball gets dropped someplace, you get very frustrated very quickly. And I think we've all dropped the ball here and there and we see your frustration rise very quickly. Justin is pretty easy going, so it's hard to pinpoint. Oh, I've seen him get mad about some stuff. Oh yeah, I get mad. I get mad. You're right, though. I've over the years, I've really tried to calm down because I know that to me, it's way less worth it to get really visibly angry because it doesn't accomplish a whole lot. But at the same time, I get very angry. I think you're the funniest at all, let's just say agree. When you get angry, I get giggly. Oh, Justin. I just push everybody away from me. Because what I could see is I could see you trying not to be angry. But I know you're angry. Actually, to be honest with you, I learn a lot from watching, actually, all joking aside, I learn a lot from watching you handle that because you have a very evolved way of handling frustration. And it's evolved because the reality is allowing yourself to get that frustrated doesn't benefit for the most part. Sometimes it may, but it doesn't really benefit anything at all. It actually takes away from time that you could be using to solving the problem. So I've actually observed that in you. Doug is very hard to get mad, but when he does, it is the most entertaining thing. We've seen that when he was driving. That was fun. We were driving to Adam's event and he was trying to get over, it was like traffic everywhere. And we were late. Oh yeah. And I just- That was early on. Yeah, it was early on.  He was like, ah, like everybody was against him. He flashes. That was where the chimp came from. No, the chimp didn't come from that. No? No, we were trying to put the, he was trying to put the luggage. He was the carry on, right? Oh yeah, that's right. I mean, think of this, we fly all the time, right? So we always are getting on flights.  And just so happens that this time we're flying, somebody stops Doug and says, oh, you need to see if, I don't know if that'll fit in the thing. Yeah, and they have that little box that you can test to see if it fits. Yeah, it's a little, it's like a metal box that you have to, your bag has to fit in that or else they say you can't take it on.  It's like so close to fitting perfect. And Doug, it's like Doug's trying to get it in there. He started, I think he stomped on it.  And then he goes, cause we were late is what it was. We were late to get on the plane. So Doug's trying to push it in and won't go in. And the girl says to Doug, cause I was right there, the girl says, I'm sorry, sir. It looks like it doesn't fit. I'm sorry, sir. And he goes, no, it fits. And he's like, then he lost it. He flipped out. And he's like, and crushes it. And he's like, see, it fits.  The whole thing was stuck to it. I dragged the whole thing into the plane. And Adam and Justin, Adam and Justin were ahead and I walked up to Adam and Justin. I'm like, just keep walking.  Just keep walking. Let him work this out. Cause at that point, you guys didn't know that.   That's where the shiv came to, I think right after that. I think you're, Sal, you're probably the calmest, I think. I think you and Justin are pretty, you guys are just way different the way you handle it.  You don't get like, you don't see yourself fuming. Like I know I put off the signs. I have, I can feel the looks. You're the most irritable. Audible and physical. Yeah.  You know, like, I just like, That's true. That is very true.  And that's why I'm really trying to work on that because I just, oh my God, like I could leave the room and like not come back.  I'm out, you know, and like, like abandon everything. Like I used to have that. Oh my God, here's, here I'm going to sell Justin out right here because this just happened. And this, and it's a perfect example and you're so right. This is how you get upset. And I can see, and it's great because I can see you holding it all in, right? Yeah. So maybe three weeks ago or so, I sent a message privately just to Justin saying, Hey, I need your help with something. I said, we have this, we have Jordan Shallow coming in. And I just, I need someone to help me organize that. And I need someone to make sure that Doug gets, is preps it the camera and make sure there's no. Smooth. Yeah, smooth. Can you make sure that you and him practice that and do that? And he's like, yeah, yeah, got it. Got it. Weeks go by. We get closer and it's like four or five days. I'm like, hey, we're gonna be good on the camera. He's like, yeah, I know we're cool. Doug and I are gonna do it probably on Monday or what like that. But okay, so I don't say anything. And then the day it's supposed to happen. Doug and him are like, fucking, it's not working to you. And I know, and I'm not saying anything because I know I already talked to Justin about this, right?  And I know he's really upset and mad because he knows I asked him.  It's rare that I reach out to one of you individually and ask for like helping me because sometimes I just get a little overwhelmed with all the stuff and I'm like, hey, I need you here. And this is a priority for the business. Can you just execute this?  Oh yeah, that was tough, yeah. But it was great. So here's the thing that's cool and I didn't say anything, right? So I didn't want to say anything to them. But I was frustrated. I was pissed inside. I was, I didn't say anything. Yeah, I knew that. And so I was like inside. I'm kind of like, ugh. And I'm like, I gotta handle this, right?  And what really sucked was the next day I knew how to be up at five in the morning. And I'm like, I need you to meet me down at the studio like eight o'clock tonight when you get off and like, I need to bang this thing out. And then I was gonna go do it. I wasn't gonna tell any of you guys. I was just gonna have it handled and then I was gonna be mad. So I had this all worked up in my head. And then like I got like a text and I'm so glad I did because I already got my brother to confirm we had already planned on doing it.  He was like, yeah, yeah, no, he did it all. He went down to Fry's or Best Buy or whatever he needed for the part. He came down, he totally hacked it all himself, set it all up, ran it, made sure it was all good to go, stayed late at work.  God bless you guys, man. Cause I hate, hate dealing with that stuff. Cannot, like you called it Doug for whatever reason. I'm like, me and machines just don't, we're just not cool. You know what I mean? It seems like lately it's really ramped up like, you know, every time you're on a podcast. Of course it is.  Cuts out. It's gonna keep pushing me until I learn to be cool with it. That's it.  Oh, I've done a couple interviews where it's over Skype or whatever and it cuts out and I'm just like, oh. I just hate being part of this lesson you're supposed to give me. For Doug, that's to bear the brunt. Yeah, Doug does. And we all get a little frustrated. And I'm like, I'm not aware near as bad as Sal but I get frustrated with that stuff too. And it's again, the reason why I think I don't is because I'm very aware it's my security. I know that without Doug, there ain't no way I'm doing this. You know what I'm saying? I just am not gonna do it. I'm not gonna go figure it out. We're like three monkeys in a frame. So then I just kind of accepted it. I'm like, well, he's fucking, he's better than I am at it. So even if he fucks up, it's better than what I would have done. Yeah. And you know what? I will say this though, when one of us sees that one of us is frustrated, we tend to not add more to it. Like just my favorite example of this was, I don't know where we were coming from. We had Florida. We were in Florida and we just recorded several fire interviews. We're really, really happy with it. We had video, audio, like we went over there.  We didn't even talk about this. Did we talk about this? A little bit. We flew over there. It's a long flight. We're tired, but we went after it and we really did a good job. We were really proud of ourselves. And so we get up and we're trying to get home, get on the, whatever it is, the tram that takes you to the area where you can get on the plane. We all get on there. First we park our rental car, grab our stuff, get on the tram, we're heading over there. We're kind of in a hurry. Yeah, no, we're cutting it close. Yeah, we're in a hurry.  And so we see Taylor, and it's Justin Adam and I, we see Taylor like, where's Doug? He's like, Doug lost his luggage, can't find his luggage. He must have left it somewhere. And so all of us, like, what do you mean? Collectively, you could feel our hearts drop. Because we know that Doug is holding.  Does he have the cameras? Does he have the files?  So I called Doug, and first of all, we're all sitting around, we're all stressed, and we all actually talked about this.  We all talked about it, we were like, look, nobody get mad.   I can't believe we're all vintage. We're like, listen, you know, he's stressed out. You know, he's freaking out. You can't flash on him. Nobody get mad. Panic attack. I'm already stressed out if I know Doug, and if we just get mad, it'll make it, the likelihood he'll find it's gonna go lower. So let's just be cool, be cool. So I called Doug off the phone, super calm. I'm like, hey, hey, what's up, man? And he's breathing hard. I'm looking for, I'm looking for the luggage, and I know he's running. I can hear over the phone that he's running to find. I had to take a tram all the way back to the rental car place. And then find the car. The cars have been taken away to be washed. Oh my God. I'm stressed there. And then there's a line to the front of the rental car place. And so I just cut in front, because I have no time. Right, yeah. And then the guy gets angry at me. Does he really? Doesn't help. And then I find this other guy that's not very helpful. And then finally, I'd say, I tell you what, there's $50 in it for you if you can find that car. You actually, I bribed the guy. Did you give him 50 bucks? Well, I didn't because they brought the car back and that guy was nowhere to be seen. I would have given him the money. Oh, wow, wow.  And within five minutes, two times, within five minutes. Especially stuff like that, cameras and computers. That's what I lost. I lost two cameras that way. And let me tell you something right now. I was within an inch of fighting everybody that worked there. I'm like, you're all in on it, and I'm going to fight everybody. I almost did that two times. Yeah, I felt the same way. Yeah. But he found it, and he comes back. And I'd never felt. Praise Odin. It's got to be the fastest and most dramatic state change I've ever experienced in my life. Well, here's a funny thing. I completely forgot that the actual recordings were in my other bag, which I had given to Taylor. So there was a backup. There was a backup. I backup all the cards as a matter of practice. And so there was my computer, which I backed it up to. That was in my backpack, which is what I left in the rental car. But the actual memory card that was in the recorder was in my other suitcase that Taylor had. But I completely forgot that because I was stressed. Oh, I didn't know that. See, if I would have known that, I wouldn't care. Because we all agreed that we were asking. We're like, is that all the files? Because I don't care about the computer and the camera. We're going to buy a new one of those. Yeah, you can replace that. Yeah, but you can't replace the content. No. The content was a ton of work. The whole trip was about that. I mean, those trips cost the business $5,000 to $10,000, depending on how long we're there. That's a major investment. End time. Yeah, we're just pissing that away. Yeah, that was crazy. Believe me, all these thoughts went through my head. Doug gets on the plane sweaty because he's been running or whatever. And just I think you slapped on the plane afterwards. You must have just had a adrenaline dump. Those are probably the two most dramatic times I've seen Doug. The luggage thing and that. I can't think of anything more than that. I'm trying to think of Justin's, the two most dramatic things or the most angry I've ever seen him. You got pretty upset recently with Taylor with him cutting in on some of your videos. Yeah, I got a little upset with him. Yeah, you took him outside. I had to tell him. I'd probably be like, dude, don't blow him out.  It's funny, dude, yeah, because old me would have just chuned his ears off and laid into him. But it's just like, no, dude, I checked myself immediately. Even before he said that, I was like, I feel visibly like I want to like, I'm in that state.  And so I started to like ramp, ramp down just enough to like have a conversation. But yeah, I was, I just felt like, and to his points, like he made some good points as far as the overall imagery and everything that was trying to be accomplished. But I was kind of in a place where I'm trying to get all these side projects done and like done, you know, and like, I don't care. Like I know some things. And you just slowed it down. Yeah, and then that just completely put a block, you know, in the whole project process for me. So that was frustrating. This is a common thing that happens in workspaces that I think a lot of times employees don't think about this, like you work for this multi-million dollar company, right? Or maybe it's a billion dollar company. It's huge, hundreds of employees or whatever.  You're great. You're great at all these things you do. But you have no idea what the CEO is talking about every single day. You have no idea what the CFO, CMO, what they're all doing. And that's us. And there's so many moving parts to the business, right?  Right. And we all respect his opinion, of course. Right. You know, it's, yeah. It's one of those things where it's okay. Now your opinion has, you know, affected like the actual progress of work and what, you know, other things that we're trying to get accomplished, you know, through different channels and for different purposes. Well, he made a mistake of showing his distaste for something that we were doing within the business in front of another employee who's creating that for us. And that's, you know, what, and that's, and it's undermining what you're doing. That's what it looks like. And that's the undermining thing that I got pissed about. That's why you got that. Absolutely. It's the undermining of what you're trying to do. It's like, hey, dude, it's not, you don't think I know this isn't the greatest work I've ever put out or done.  Thank you. So this is- Very beautifully put. This is definitely a common thing in business. I remember I used to have these conversations with trainers that work for me.  You can see your position. This is a great book for this, 360 Leader by John C. Maxwell.  How do you manage yourself in that? And part of that is understanding that you don't fully understand your boss's position and the decisions that they have to make. The ultimate direction. Right, the fact that they're in that position automatically, and it's not to say there's not shitty people up there. I mean, there's absolutely bad managers and bad leaders by all means, but it doesn't mean that you fully understand all the decisions that have to be made and sometimes that's really naive for you to think that way. Now, sometimes I do think that that is the responsibility on leadership also. I mean, one of the things that I always tried to do when I had large staffs was I need to paint the clear vision and direction that everybody's going the big picture so that there is none of that. Oh, I'm doing it this way because I don't know. I don't know what the real clear vision is. A lot of times it's the responsibility of leadership. Like, well, if they don't know, we need to make it more clear because obviously they don't know the true and real direction. Well, yeah. We're not selling it well enough. That was part of why I had, who said something to Justin before he went in there and kind of lit him up or what I thought he was going to light him up over was because I had just spent two hours before that at breakfast kind of expressing this to Taylor and letting him know because I was aware of his feelings on some of the stuff that we were creating. I said, listen, dude, you don't understand there's going to be phases of this. This is not the last website. This is not the last time that we create graphics like this. Like, oh, yeah. And to be fair, like that was also and it's something of a struggle for me in this business. Like since day one, like I've had to learn to really think of it in those terms as far as like, you can't come right out of the gates looking like, you know, Nike and looking like these multimillion dollar companies.  I want to look the best. I want to, you know, have the best content, have, you know, everything nice and sharp and like professional and, you know, to work at this speed with as many people as we have. And, you know, it's just, it's impossible. And, you know, like that's all part of growth for me individually. Like I have to check myself. Like this has to be done. So this has to be done. I have to make compromises. And so to hear somebody challenge those compromises was tough, you know, because it's like. Because you already feel that way. Yeah, I've already worked through all that. Like I understand where you're coming from completely, you know, it's a, so yeah, dude, that is something that keeps coming up with me. But I've learned to just, I have a job. I'm doing the job. It's one of the biggest mistakes with people who try to try their hand at entrepreneurship. One of the biggest mistakes is, they're so afraid to take that first step. Because they want to make it so perfect before they go forward. Here's the deal. There's a lot of unknown when you're in business, especially if it's your business or you're starting a business. In fact, there's way more unknown by a multitude of like a hundred than there is of the known. And the only way you'll know some of that unknown and start to figure it out most times is if you move forward because you'll figure out really quick what you're doing wrong and then you can change it and do it right. It's inevitable. But to predicting, yes, good luck. Anybody that's ever built anything of magnitude that's millions of dollars will tell you that they made tons of mistakes on the way there and tons of failures. So the way I look at it is it's a race to get to those. And if you think that having a website that doesn't look like Nike right out of the gates is what's gonna cause this business to fail. Okay, let's see. Let's go. Let's go and let's see. Maybe you're right. Maybe I've split tested that. Like I know it doesn't work. Maybe you're wrong. Yeah, you have to generate income. You have to have liquidity in your business. You have to be able to move forward with cash. It's just not the biggest rock, right? No, I mean, I had this, this was part of the talk that I had with this group yesterday was, you know, so many people, they get so hung up on the way their business card looks or they're trying to attract all these people on Instagram and it's like, but they're really not providing any real value for the consumer. It's like, if you haven't figured out the real value that you're adding to your consumers, like you don't have a really good solid business. Like spend most of your time and energy in that instead of trying to waste it on like having the coolest website or this app that makes it so simple and easy and speedy for people. It's like, yeah, those things are all great things. And those things are, that I think it would be great to have for a business, but you can build a business without anything. Well, so funny. That's totally now for me, like it's flipped. Right. So those used to be the priority, like building an app, like making the awesome pretty website, like having attracting people through, imagery, completely at the opposite end for me now. It's crazy. Yeah, and here's the other part of providing value. When you truly believe that what you're doing is bringing real value to people, then you have a belief in it and it gives you a stronger sense of character with what you're doing.    It's like, look, I can go down a list of entrepreneurs, like what's his name? Colonel Sanders with KFC.  He believed in it so much that he made it through all those knows before he finally got that big yes. Same thing with Macy's, same thing with any major business or company or tech, you know, business where they had created something, nobody liked it. And so they had to keep at it and keep at it. Well, think about what we did here. It's, I mean, I get a lot of people that are interested in starting a podcast and they're really nervous to start the podcast because, you know, I don't know what we're gonna talk about or I don't know this or I don't know that. I'm like, that was a lot of the same unknowns that we had. You know, we had an idea that we just talked about in real time. Right, and what's neat about this medium is you can put something out and then you could pay attention to what people say or don't listen to. Like if they're not listening to you. Or just listen to yourself. Yeah, that's a great one. I mean, it's a great way to feel it out. Or we could sit there and deliberate over what we're gonna say and what we're gonna talk about and spend all this time. It's again, it's become our secret sauce or our secret weapon with this space is that anytime we meet somebody that podcasts, they just don't understand how it's possible that we can do five episodes. It's because, well, that's because we don't sit there and overanalyze what we're gonna say because those people's desired outcomes are wrong. Their desired outcome is, okay, I'm gonna make sure we say all these right things because I'm trying to lead these people to buy some. They're looking at it just like that versus how can I provide something that adds a ton of value to people's life? If I can do that, then the business piece will be really easy. But make a plan, even a bad plan, but be okay with changing your plan as you go along. That's the key, really. That is the key. Make a plan, follow it.  That's really the only thing you can expect because everything else is unknown. So expect that you're not gonna be as good as it's gonna be, that's it. Then you go forward and be okay with changing your plan.  The likelihood that you're gonna succeed is higher than the likelihood that you'll completely fail and burn out or whatever and get destroyed. And look, this is true with fitness as well. I've said this before, and actually I haven't said this in a long time, consistently applied bad workout plan is better than a great workout plan that's never applied or applied very inconsistently. This is true. If I see, if someone has bad programming but they're consistent and they stick with it and then they change things as they move along, they're gonna succeed better than somebody who has a great workout plan but just doesn't apply it consistently or doesn't apply it at all.  So you gotta be okay with finding out what you're doing that's wrong and really sometimes the only way to figure that out is to move forward. Otherwise it's this potential C of unknowns and the best thing that you could possibly, I mean, you're basically guessing. It's a lot like a fitness goal or a weight loss goal. I mean, it really is. And what people are struggling with right now is we live in this instant gratification. We live in this social media world where I can all of a sudden add 10,000 people following me in a day. That's possible. It's possible to do that. That is not a real business. Like no business opened doors day one and could really handle 10,000 people walking through their door. They just wouldn't unless they, I mean, no one would foresee building something like that. So the same way goes for building a business nowadays. It's just different mediums, different platforms that we're using. You wouldn't want that. I was saying this yesterday too on this talk. It's like, you wouldn't want. I used to tell you guys all the time, right? When we talk about potentially going viral, it'd be like, that would be the best and worst thing ever to happen for us. At that time, when we were having those conversations, we were not a sustainable business. You know, and sure we would have made a bunch of money real quick, because we had this flood of people come through, but we would have been done. But we've been done. You know, I've been thinking about this a lot because of the frustration of like growth and we're always pressing so hard to grow. And we've done a good job of recognizing that real growth happens at a gradual pace because it basically challenges your systems and then your systems reveal holes and then you got to fill those holes and then you can progress through that at a reasonable pace that makes sense. And I'm thinking about that and thinking about like how everything that I've experienced in life that I had a choice whether it's hard or it's easy. I want it to come easier. I wanted to go through it and go through the hard way. Like to me, every time I've gone easy, there's been a cost. And so like every single time, like I can't even think of a time where I got something super easy, but then there was this thing that popped up or some attachment to it that was negative. Well, this is why I think one of the greatest and worst things that'll ever happen to health if we ever get to this point is when we finally discover fitness in a pill. If we ever, if we ever discover it, it'll be the best and worst thing that ever happened because people will get what they think they want and realize it's not at all what they wanted. I don't think we were made that way. Well, that's what I'm saying. If it's possible, think about it this way. If there was a magic way to do that, to snap your fingers and boom some steps. No, no, you're right. Here's what would happen. They would have gained no growth and learning from the process. All they would have is the side effect of what could have happened through all that growth and process and learning and change. So now here I am, I look fit, I look healthy, but I don't have any of the, I haven't gone through the work that it's taken to change those behaviors, to change the way I look at food, to change the way I look at exercise, the way I look at myself. And what you'll end up having is a bunch of dysfunctional lean people who aren't really healthy in the truest sense. It's really no different than lottery winners. And I- That's the exact same. I use lottery winners and biggest losers as examples of this. Yep, yep. I'm like, you don't wanna win it in life. You don't wanna win like that.  You wouldn't want that. You wouldn't want that for you. You're not gonna build a sustainable business on it. It's just like the lottery winners that all of a sudden get millions and millions of dollars almost what 80% of them end up losing it all anyways. And they're friends. They lose their friends. Think about how the expectation of all your friends and family after that, like you got all this money, you know, like obviously I'm entitled to some of it. That's right. You know, all that gets attached to it. So it's, there's always something, dude. There's always something that you have to consider if I'm gonna, you know, really pursue, get rich quick, you know, or, you know, whatever these easy pursuits may sound great. This is why, and I know you guys are the same way. This is why I look with extreme apprehension at the current growth of this underground movement that's becoming mainstream in, that uses- Mastermind? No, that uses the tool, psychedelic tools for personal and spiritual growth. Because what we're seeing right now is this, this was an underground and now it's starting to grow and it's being sold as the pill. It's like the fitness pill, but instead it's, this is the spiritual pill. And take this and boom, you're gonna, you know, evolve your consciousness, grow, be this awesome, great new person. Beware of unearned wisdom. That's one of the most, one of the best quotes I've ever heard, I forgot who said that. But beware of unearned wisdom. It's powerful. Because there's a reason why it takes a long time for a person who meditates for years or a monk or a spiritual leader to get to that point where they've achieved that level of consciousness or awareness. There's a reason why it works that way. And doing something that just gives it to you, boom, quick, it's not the same. And it comes with its own dangers. This is why I'm a huge advocate for that, for those substances to be integrated into medicine. Because the way I think they should be used is, you're gonna sit down with a therapist. And this will help, but the hard work is what we do afterwards and during and all that stuff. Well, it's even like when we talk to Paul check about, you know, because we've gone back and forth and potentially doing like one of these ayahuasca type of journeys or what like that. But, and I've gone like, well, I'd have to be in the right space. I'd have to be the right person to do it with. And we've all agreed that, you know, Paul has become a good friend of ours. And one of the things that I thought was really cool and what made me even go, okay, I could see where I'd wanna do this with this guy was because even the way he goes about it, he's like, no, no, no, if we do this, you guys are gonna come up and stay with me for three to four days before. And we're gonna do a lot of the real work, sober going into it, because that's really, you gotta prep yourself.  Like that's not how you wanna do this. And I think I was banging tree leopards. You know what I mean? It got really weird. I don't know, I just, I've heard stories. I know, I keep hearing weird stories. Who was it?  Something like that, yeah. You know who you are listening to. That's our boy, Connor.  I'm sure he shared that story. He shared that story. He definitely has. Well, you know, we're all in this race to get to the finish line. And the reality is that the beauty of the race is the race. It's not what's at the end. You know what the finish line is? When you die, actually, probably not even then. There's probably more after that. I think trying to get the goal, the prize, you miss out on the real beauty of all the struggle and everything that it took to get there. In fact, I can't, I can never remember this term. There's a psychological term for something that athletes go through when they train super, super hard and focused for an event. Like let's say you're training for the Olympics and you're just fucking, you're trained for four years. You know, you're trained to be the best in the world at something. And it literally, you dedicate your entire life to it. And all you're focused on is the gold medal. I want the gold medal.  It's just incredible feeling. And then afterwards, it's quite common for people to go through a deep depression because they've lost that purpose. They've lost that goal. Oh, I felt a little bit of that after the competing thing. See, yeah, yeah. And there's a term for it, by the way. This is a psychological problem. I felt a little, it was like, it was a while afterwards. Like there was a high after that. Like that was like, this was a, you know, that was like a three year goal. Like, you know, I remember when I had put it out there and said, this is what I'm going to do. And then chipping away at that. So that was probably one of the longest, most vigorous goals that I've ever gone after. Like just, I'm going to do this, you know, I know it's going to take a long time and dedication. So there was a lot that led up to that. And then the, you know, the climax of it was incredible. I mean, it was one of the most amazing moments of being on that stage and going pro. And I remember like, I was on that high for like six months. And then once the business, this business started to kind of take off and then that was no longer like the priority. You know, I went through this kind of like, I don't even want to lift right now. I know. You know, like I'm over it. You know what I'm saying? Like, I remember that. I remember you saying that. I mean, it's happened to me before. I remember telling you good. Remember me saying like, I can't wait to not be that guy. Like everybody thinks I'm that guy and that's whatever they've attached me to. I went through that with football. Yeah. When I was done my very last game and was looking at everybody on the field and was just remembering, like it was, it was weird. It was surreal, but at the same time, like immediately I had this like, like pit in my gut. Like it was depression, you know, and it was setting in because it was an, it's, it was like an era, you know, it was a time capsule of like since freshman year until, you know, like through college. Like, I mean, that was who I was. And, you know, that was hard to let go.  But you know, what I'm talking about is like when people just focus so heavily on the goal. On that one thing.  And then afterwards you're like, now what? You know, it's, it's like. Yeah, it normally has to be this big, huge. Goal specific, right. And there's a term for it and I can't remember what it was. And, you know, the antidote to that is just to learn to enjoy the process. Like do things for, sometimes you want to do things or learn to do things for the sake of doing them and finding pleasure in them. Spiritual practices and religions have known this for a long time. Chanting or you ever go to like these, I think is it Japanese or Chinese gardens, Doug, where they, where they comb the rocks or the sands? Japanese. Okay, so the goal of that is not to create just to have this beautiful looking sand. That's not the purpose. The purpose is while you're doing it. It's the enjoyment of the actual thing itself rather than focusing just on the goal. And I, and that is 100% the secret of lifelong success and fitness. That is the secret. The secret is not set a goal, hit the goal. That's, that's a process. And that's part of the process. That's a byproduct of it. Yeah, the secret is find enjoyment in the actual activity of fitness. Find the enjoyment in the actual art of taking care of your body. Find enjoyment in the work and the struggle. That's it. And then you'll never stop. Right, like it's okay to start eating a certain way and start training a certain way and being consistent with it so you can actually measure and finding out that, oh, that didn't work very well. You got to be okay with that. That's not a failure. That's like, that's you learning more about your body and where you should be or what you should be doing. Like learning to be okay with that because if you're a self-aware enough person, you'll download that information. You won't make that mistake again. Like I know that when I do X, Y, and Z, like this is what happens. So now I build upon that. And so treating- That's the whole process. Just finding that you enjoy the whole process. I mean, when you get to a point, and this happens to us all the time, we'll go on a trip for five or six days and our nutrition will kind of get thrown off because we'll eat out quite a bit. And we'll all say the same thing.  Like what? You know, why? Because I think we've learned to enjoy the actual process of eating healthy. Not because I want to get lean. Not because I want to build muscle. Not because anything else that I actually enjoy that food. I enjoy the process. I think we've also done a really good job over all these years. And people that are like this too is of connecting the dots to how when you eat that way, how much better you feel, right? And then how much crappier you feel when you're not feeling your body. And I think for many, many years, I wasn't in tune with that.  And I was so inconsistent with the way that I fed my body that I was so numb to all the signals it may have been trying to give me. But over the last like five, five to seven years of my life, I've really honed in on that. And because of that, I still will allow myself some latitude and freedom to eat. Like when we're traveling, like I'm not gonna stress over it to make sure I get all this or measure my food. I don't need to do that.  But I do appreciate how I feel when I do eat balanced and get what my body needs nutritionally on every day and get my exercise in. And so I know that when we do those trips and we kind of eat that way, I can feel. I can feel lethargic. I can feel kind of tired.  And you wanna get back to the healthy process. And I know what healthy atom, how I operate. Like healthy atom like operates at a much higher level and I want that. Oh yeah, you feel good. You radiate. It's a totally different thing. Like I immediately think of like just watching plants like when they get water and they get the proper soil and nutrients. And you just see like a complete difference just in the way it looks. That's actually a pretty good analogy. Yeah.  I know. I've been working on it. 800 episodes. Yes. Step above ramp water. Yeah. No, that was good. That was perfect. No, because I totally saw it. You're right. You can visualize that. Like how good plants look when they do everything correctly. Cause you're still alive and you technically could be semi healthy plant just cause you're under fed for a few days. But as soon as you give the right balance of nutrients. Yeah, they flourish. They absolutely flourish. Stand up, right? I like that. When I used to train clients in person, it would be funny because, you know, certain times of the day I would eat and there were these, there's this couple that I trained. Jessica actually trains them now. Morgan and Kelly, great people. I trained them for I think 12 years. And they would always come in after one of my meals. And sometimes they would show up a little bit early. So they'd walk in and I'd be eating, right? And inevitably on my plate, I would have either a big plate of steamed broccoli with olive oil and salt or rapini or, you know, zucchini or something like that.   And I'm like, no, I really, I really like it. I like eating it.  And he'd be like, there's no way. Cause you're eating a huge bowl of it. Like that's so gross. He's like, are you trying to tell me that that broccoli tastes as good as pizza? And I'm like, well, of course not. I'm not talking just about taste though. Like if I compare just one signal, which is taste, which makes up one signal that there's a lot of them that food provide. But if I just compare one, it's not fair. Of course I'm not going to eat a bowl of broccoli. I'm going to want to eat a cupcake or a piece of pizza or a burger or french fries. Cause those ones were designed for that. Right. But that's my point. Like if I just compare that one metric, but I'm aware of all these other metrics and simple and signals that I get from food and I value those as well. And so when I add all those up, do I value taste? I, of course I value taste. Who doesn't like something that tastes really good? But all the other ones adapt to more. And so I value more of that. And so I actually enjoy eating the bowl of broccoli more than I enjoy eating some pizza right now. And I would explain that to him and, you know, he'd be like, well, that doesn't make any sense, but it's totally true. You could. I was so funny. We'd have these debates about it. But it's literally, and I would actually, to people who were open to it, I would actually train them to do this. I'd say, okay, it's, and by the way, it takes a lot of work because you got to erase a lot of stuff.  Really what you're trying to do is become hyper aware of all the things that that food has influenced. And one of them is taste. The other ones are, you know, we've named them before, right?  Like we can go down a long list.  And once you start to, first off, become aware of them, like, oh shit, I do feel better here, here, here and here. Look at my skin here, here, here. And you start to become aware of them. Now mentally, you, that now is like, it's like points for that food that's getting plugged in. And believe me, you will, at some point, figure out that for the most part, that I value this food more than this food, even though that one tastes better. So for the most part, that's actually what I wanna eat. When you get to that place, eating healthy is not a diet. It's actually what you want to do, and then it's not hard at all. And again, you can do this with foods that you don't, that maybe taste phenomenal, but don't have all those other points. Sometimes you just wanna taste it. Like sometimes you don't care about that. And usually it's with other people. What's great about that too, is when you get into where taste is like, well, yeah, occasionally I want something that tastes really like awesome. Like you get that taste that comes at you really quick and so you don't really tend to eat a lot of it. Very true. You don't need it. Very true. I got it.  I don't overeat sweets like I used to.   Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I trip out on that right now like we just, so we went to this last weekend, we had the graduation party and there was this huge cake. I love cake. Yeah, you do. Yeah, I love cake, right?  And she's, you know, this is where I love about her. Like she knows my little thing.  Would you bought the whole cake? Yeah. He's bought a cake a year ago. That was great, yeah. So an elastic animal. That's like my, that's younger me, right? And I'm like, I know I could crush those things like by myself. So she cuts me this giant wedge of cake. And I did have a piece of it, but I remember looking at it and I've already been here enough times that I can remember like, if I eat this whole thing, I'm going to be just miserable like now. Like I just can't handle it. Like I used to be able to handle it because it was something that was more regularly in my diet.  And the other thing that, it was good. I actually really enjoyed it. It was nice and, you know, my stomach was all right. You know, it wasn't really, really bad because I think I took a very modest piece and left the rest of it in there. That thing's been sitting in my refrigerator for this whole last week and that would never happen. And it's like just, just maybe seven years ago, you know, five, seven years.  No, I don't even want it. Exactly. I don't even want it. Exactly. It fed that need that I wanted. Like I hadn't had cake in a while. It looked like a really good cake. I wanted to try it enough to satisfy that craving or feeling, right? So, and I did satisfy it. And I didn't feel the need to revisit it. It wasn't so amazing to me that I needed to have more of it where that would normally trigger an old habit and pattern where I would crush the whole thing. You know, I've said this before in this podcast. That's part of how I started to the first step before I even got to where I'm at now was stopping myself from having it in my house. Because if it was in my house, like there would become a weak point where I would want to go have some. And then when I go have some, it would be like, well, I need to finish it all and get it out of the house. Oh yeah. And so I would crush whatever it was, all of it. Because of the way I look at it, it's like, I'm going to consume it. Yeah. May as well get it all done right now. I'll pay for this. Yeah, like I would. I would get over with. I would look, you know, back in my early 20s, I'd look at a thing of Oreos.   Like that. Like I would have those thoughts in my head and I could totally justify it. And there is some truth to that. It's like, well, fuck, I am going to consume 15,000. What's the difference if I eat all 15,000 now or spread out over its net? It's the same, you know, it's just as bad pretty much for me to do that. So that was how I would justify that. So, you know, there's steps to this. There is definitely steps. And it's like we talked about in business, create a plan, go through it and be okay with changing it along the way. And this is how nutrition works. This is how exercise works. It's the same exact thing. Like you have a plan, go through the workout, be okay with veering off if you have to because you're listening to your body. And that's when you get the best, that's when you get the best results and you get to enjoy the process the entire time. You know, right now I'm following split, right? Our newest program. I'm literally following it to a T. And first off, I wanna say, we wrote that very, very well. And I'm doing the program myself. And it makes me realize that when I write a program outside of my workout, and what I mean by that is a lot of times the way I'll work out is I'll construct my workout as I'm working out. But with split, we wrote it. We sat down to write it. And when you're writing it and you're not working out, your mentality is more objective. My mentality is I'm looking at it from a bird's eye view. My ego's not in it because I'm not working out right now. And I can write it really, really smart. And that's what we did, right? So I'm applying the workout and I can already tell as I'm doing, I'm like, well, I wanna do this. I'm like, no, no, no. I'm gonna follow it exactly as it's laid out.  And this is something I wanted to communicate since doing this is like, for people who are experienced and you kind of take it for granted, try this. Try taking some time aside while you're not working out. Cause while you're working out, if you do it on the whim sometimes ego gets in and you revert back to your favorite thing or the one exercise you love to do all the time that gets you the best pump or whatever and you just end up overdoing that. So take time aside, sit down, write it out objectively from a bird's eye view and then stick to it and be okay with changing it. But also try to stick to it because you wrote that in that particular state of mind. And man, let me tell you what, like what a difference. I wouldn't be following. If I were just to write it myself as I go along, I wouldn't have written it nearly as well. Yeah. You know what I mean? No, there's something to be, it just, it reminds me of talking about the Fitbit and then the food tracking. It's, I can keep myself in good shape without that. So I don't depend on it to stay. Like I haven't tracked my food in probably a year and a half now, maybe longer. But there is something about it when I do track and I do, it's just, it's this whole new level.  And you do just gravitate to patterns and habits. That's just, that's how we're wired. So me tracking something or following something to a tee like that or tracking like a food track or a Fitbit, all these things are just more awareness tools. And I think that, I think there's a lot of value to all of them. And I think it was funny that we just talked about this about the Fitbit and this is how I feel about it. I feel that that's exactly how, how you're explaining how you feel about this program because you are following it to a tee. It's not that you couldn't create a great program or have a great workout or stay in good shape. It's just that it takes you to another level of awareness because you are getting a bird's eye view and you're also kind of napping. It's improving my ability to train intuitively. And that's, that's how these tools should be used. You should be used, improve your awareness, increase your awareness so that you can get better and better and better at being able to read your body. You know what I'm saying? Oh yeah, cause going through something that's structured like that, you would already feel like if I wanted to do something that like was more comfortable or something that I would, I would gravitate towards in the gym instead, but now I have to do this. And it's kind of, there's a little bit of static there. And I, you know, I fight it a bit, but why am I fighting that? So yeah, you have to kind of pay attention to those tendencies that you typically will have going into even lifting. And I definitely have noticed that with food. It's funny. It's my favorite program so far that I've done. I can't wait to get on it. It's my favorite. It's my favorite because I like, you know, I like bodybuilding. I like building, you know, round muscles and all that stuff. I like focusing on isolation stuff sometimes. It's just, you know, what's kind of what I fell in love with it. I like strength too. Don't get me wrong cause I, and I did, but I did maps anabolic for so long cause that was the first one that, you know, like this is a little bit different, but it's funny to see my body change because before that I was doing another, some other program, one that we've, we haven't talked about yet, but doing this one, it's funny watching my body change. Oh, it's looking different. Here's the thing. It's so great. And I'll just be honest. Like I, I can look at you guys because I love, I love the aesthetic type of training. And I have been for some time now. I can look at your physiques. And I know that the type of training you gravitate towards and being a guy who's into aesthetic training like that. Like I can tell, like when somebody trains differently, like you, if you're somebody who's more of a power type of lifter or into like rotational type movements and things like that versus a guy who loves to deadlift and strength train and stay in that five to, you know, five to six rep range or majority of the time and train the major movements. And that's kind of it type of deal. Like, I mean, I, I definitely, cause I've seen the change in my own physique. I, when I started hanging out with you guys and I started, I, I started training just the staple barbell lifts like crazy. And I saw lots of benefits there. There was some great benefits and carryover that I got from switching from being this kind of bodybuilder guy to a little bit more of this strength power type of stuff, which I flirted with, but wasn't really consistent with. And for the first time ever I became really consistent with that. And I remember like looking at my body going, it looks different. It's very different the way it's built. And in its own right, it can still look great. It's, it's to each their own. This is what's great about that. We have this ability to do it. But yeah, no, I look at both of you guys. I'm like, did I could totally shape your body? It's totally different. I mean, I feel like I could sculpt your physique to look completely different. I feel like you're trying to close us. I know. We want to hire you. I mean, certain. They're hella expensive. You're hella expensive. I mean, certain. I mean, certain. They're hella expensive. I mean, certain. I mean, certain. We want to hire you. I mean, certain. I mean, certain. I mean, certain. I mean, certain. In most awesome attribute is also the thing that makes it, that is its weakness, its biggest weakness. And that's resistance training is so versatile and so moldable. Literally, there is no structure to it, aside from training within particular types of biomechanics and form. Other than that, there is no structure. I can train anybody with weights, anybody. If they're, if they can move, I don't care what injury they have, whatever, how tall, short, whatever, we can work with weights. And I can mold resistance training to train from everything, from maximal strength to crazy endurance, to mobility and flexibility. I can do that. I can mold resistance training to do that. But that's also why so many people don't do it because it's not easy. You know, it's complicated. It's not get on a treadmill and run or do this thing over and over again or whatever, follow this class. It's literally, okay, the sky's the limit. Now we got to construct and design. One of it is right for me. You know, there's so many different variations of it and different methods out there that are selling you hard on, this is the way to do it.  One of the number one reasons why the thing that I personally came up with when Doug first said, if you ever have anything that you wanna sell, let me know. And I'm like, it's gonna be a workout program. And it's because all the online programs I've ever seen, they don't spend time on that aspect of it. The programming. No, it's all on the other side. It's just, it's just, here's a hard workout. It's like supplement companies do with the way flavors and colors. Yeah, yeah. It's all about flavors and colors. It's all about that. That's what workout programs are online. It's all about that. It's like, here's a workout, here's what's hard and it's gonna make you sweat and that's it. Well, I remember when we first started the podcast and we discussed all of this. Like we, obviously we said, we're gonna put all this great content. We're gonna focus on value, but at one point we're gonna have to monetize. Like what is it? And we're like, well, I think the best thing we could do is to do programs because I think 90% of the ones I see out there are garbage. I think we're all experts in our own sense of that. We all have different backgrounds so we'll contribute to great programs.  Or who's doing it? Yeah, who exactly? Oh, it's the good looking dude or the whatever. Yeah, some competitor or something like that, that's why I did that.  You do know that magazines like Shape or these websites, when they're trying to get a celebrity workout, they'll go to the trainer of the celebrity and they'll say, all right, give us some exercises that we can put on the thing and then we'll say it's so-and-so's workout. Yeah, totally. And most of the time, it's not even what they do when they train people because otherwise that may be boring. Like, oh, well I'm gonna show barbell squats and whatever. Like, no, no, no, show us some different stuff and it has nothing to do with the actual effectiveness of the routine and the programs you buy online or the ones they sell or like that, it's terrible. I would buy them just because it's in my space and I wanna see what people are doing now. Look at them and be like, first of all, some of them were just insane. I look at it. The reason why it was so easy for me to spot was because this is what trainers do inside gyms. Yes. There's this culture. You got the hardest workout.  You know, when I first came on the scene, like that is the culture.   Like that was literally the extent of programming.  It's a problem still in the gyms. You know, I get DMs all the time about this because I haven't been there in such a long time and everyone goes like, no, Adam, it's still like this. You know, so it's still happening in the gyms right now. It's still happening in social media world and all the people, all these big name people are falling. You're following these trainers that they really don't fully understand and had a program correctly and they've fallen for this whole gimmick of throwing all these creative random exercises together. Well, the problem is the only trainers and coaches that I see that actually have good programming are the ones that write programs for strength athletes. Yeah, athletes. Like, and that's because that's a competitive market because athletes- They have something to measure. Yes, they're like- If I followed your program and my PR was, I didn't hit my PR even.  Or if I follow this program and I don't play better on the field or I don't jump higher, I don't run faster. I got injured. That's it. But the programs written for the general public are, there is no metric other than will you buy it, can I make you sore? Well, a very subjective, right? Because you have all these different variables there with that. If they follow a diet really well and they follow a shitty program, what will happen? It's easy to get someone to lose 10 pounds. And if it's not working for you, that's on you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I'm awesome. Look at me. It works for me. Yes. Like, that's like where the line gets drawn, right? Remember what's his name's programs? Joe, remember Donnelly when he would show us? 50, 50. Mr. Volume. Oh, dude. He'd show us his programs and was so proud of how hard they were. And all of us were like, you're gonna fry every single person that does this. Yeah. No, we can do this. They're gonna get fried. And I know why you're putting this out because it makes you look like a bad guy. Shout out to Joe D. Thanks for the mind pump bump there, dude. Yeah. All right. I think that's why we eventually got blocked is because all of us people are coming over. That's it. You know how many people have mass access.  Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was the because people would look at his programs and they'd be like, but mind pumps lead a minute.  And his is like, well, man up. You know what I'm saying? You get to my level. Take more gear. Yeah. Take more gear. You'll recover. Take more gear and eat more. Then you can do two hours of special sauce. You chest. It really works. Well, you know, this is what's happened is you get a lot of models, you know, that, you know, competed and then they get on covers of magazines and don't get me wrong. Like these people know how to get themselves in shape. Like they've proven that, you know? Now, some of them did it probably by some really crazy methods or by using things or whatever, but to each their own. And no matter what, it takes dedication and discipline and consistency to do whatever they did, but really have no experience with training the people. And they call themselves a coach because they do something virtually online. Even if you're coaching 50 to 100 people a month times five years, you're still not touching that many lives and you really ain't really, you're not really coaching. No, you can't be because first of all, if you've made it to the level where you have the aesthetics to be popular enough to have hundreds of thousands of followers or to be placed on websites or magazines, that is partially, yes, you probably do put some consistency and some hard work, but you also have amazing genetics because I could take a hundred people and give them perfect diet, perfect training and they'll never look good enough to be, most of them won't be good enough to be put on websites and magazines and stuff because there's a genetic component and then there's also the drugs, let's not forget, you know, on anabolic. And so these people train themselves, so they happen to have these great genetics who are also on anabolic steroids. And so all of their experience training is in that category. Now, what percentage of the population do you think fits in that category, right? So they're writing, what they've done is they've written programs for genetically gifted steroid taking people. Everybody else is fucked. Anybody else who follows that program is not gonna respond the same way. What's interesting is that the culture hasn't really caught up to that fact alone, that they don't view getting really big and shredded as like, you know, it's like professional sport.  You know, like that's silly.  But then again, on that side of it, where we see all these magazine images and people that are just like, you know, man, just genetically just awesome and like bodybuilders that's like, for some reason we still think that's achievable. Yeah, I'll look like him if I can follow that. Yeah, yeah, no problem. I just gotta lift more.  Pro bodybuilders, for example, we hung out with Ben Pakulski. Here's a man who is literally trying to lose weight. To lose muscle. Big time. He's trying as hard as he can. He wants to lose a hundred pounds of muscle. To lose muscle. Okay, he was already in this process for like a year where he was pushing to lose muscle. I will never, ever, ever get as big as he is after years of trying to get smaller. So he could literally try to get smaller. I could try to get as big as possible. I will never be as big as him because he's just, That's silly. He's, now has he put in a lot of work? Of course, but he's also combined that with ability to put on that kind of muscle. And so my point is with these routines is they're not written, they're not written by people who've trained lots of people and you can tell when you look at them, I can always take a look at this and be like, oh, this is not written for, this is not gonna help most people. This is gonna hurt most people or do nothing. It's terribly written. They don't, they don't, they don't periodize their training. They don't utilize, you know, understand exercise order and how the order all matches throughout the entire week. They don't understand how to apply intensity or frequency properly, especially in the context of whatever program that they're writing. They don't understand how to combine mobility and the prop in the right way. They may throw in mobility in there, although I still haven't seen that yet, but let's just say they do. They may just pick three or four popular mobility exercise and not realizing those need to be programmed. You stretch your hammies, bro. Yeah, those need to be programmed as well. And so, you know, it just, it was an open, it was an open market for that kind of stuff. Oh, it was easy. It was gonna be easy. If we knew that if we were going to provide value, add value through the podcast and then as long as we provided something that was superior than most, everything that was being put out there, which is also why too, that we can charge the rate that we do for our programs. I mean, I knew that. I remember I was just telling this to somebody the other day. It's like, I like to think of ourselves as the Nordstroms of, you know, programs online. And there's plenty of other nice stores out there and people that do that, but like we have a reputation for the product that you're getting in.    And it's not about all the awesome heroic imagery and like how like- We're getting better. Yeah, but what I'm saying is like literally all it is about what works and what's gonna work for you best. Like that was what we put all the emphasis in. It's funny.   But she's just like, you need to like reshoot the videos for maps anywhere, you know how she talks? She's like, it's like in your grandma's living room and it doesn't look, and Adam's wearing sunglasses. You guys weren't even trying. Yeah. And I'm telling her, I'm like, listen, that'll happen in due time and that's gonna be something we're gonna do. We're gonna make everything look better. I said, but the time that we spent on it is on the programming. Like it works. And she's like, yeah, but then we go back and forth. And then she tried it and she did that big old post in the forum where she's like, all right, like, I know how it looks, but let me tell you, I followed it and it's totally works. Like I see my body chain or whatever.  That'll be a deadly combo. That's next year. I mean, it's all happening right now. It's a slow process. This is again, something else that I was talking about with this group of people I was talking to yesterday. It was, it takes time to do those things. It takes a lot of money to do those things, but it's not the number one priority. It really isn't. It is if we wanted to get the attention of everybody, but it's not. I'd rather not get the attention of thousands of people and truly transform five people. You truly- You get the forward thinkers, the early adopters. We're getting people that are actually seeking on that change. Not just your fly by the moon kind of people. And I do see though with the growth of the business and what's happening right now. And I think the YouTube channel is approaching 80,000 subscribers or something right now. Like you're starting to see the looky-loos now. Yeah. You know, because we had a really strong core for a long time. I was like, man, we don't get any haters. Bro, I've done a couple of videos. There's a couple of videos now with me on them where I'm talking. You know how I talk. I talk very like, this is how it is, right? And you can, there's now getting some haters. And so there's some comments. I forgot which one it was. I think it was the one that was talking about why body parts splits don't work for most people and this, that, and the other. And I'm talking about, and underneath it, there's a dude that's like, one guy's like, yeah, I do a split and I'm already way bigger than this guy. So he doesn't know what he's talking about. And another person's like, another person's like- The end. Yeah, another person's like, my program's awesome. Dude, you know, I know some female power lifters that are bigger than this guy. Obviously. Oh my God. Dude. And I'm laughing. That's brutal. That's brutal. But can I tell you something? Can we read like, when we start getting these, we have to- No, because you're gonna encourage them. It doesn't matter. It's kind of funny. It doesn't matter. I remember Doug used to say that and I used to agree like we shouldn't like read like a bad reviewer, but at this point it's gonna be, there's gonna be tons of hate. It won't matter. Have you seen that? I don't know if it's Jimmy Fallon, but they do. You know who does it really well? The guy that I followed a long time ago and he's now blown up big time lately is Robert Frank. He does those crazy videos where he's yelling his car. But he does it every week. He dances all just ridiculous in his kitchen and he just, he posts all the Twitter hate. He literally shouts them out. You know what I'm saying? He gives them love. You know what I'm saying? Shouts them all out.  People are saying that. Oh yeah. So they're saying that, but the best part of it is I won't answer for a little bit. I'll wait and inevitably fan will get on there. And the fan will be like, oh, you must not know who he is or you don't know who Mind Plumb is. Obviously they know what they're talking about.  They're going on there to back us up. And that's what Casey will tell you always with us, right? Is don't pick up the brick, right? Don't even respond. Don't even give them any attention whatsoever. But some people, I mean, that was part of Joe Dee's formula. He used to do this. Who else does this that we know where they intentionally engage people like that? Because for the- Lane does it. Yeah, oh, Lane doesn't. So Lane and Lane- Also the functional patterns guy. And you know, it's crazy. Yeah, but he's crazy. When I look at both their businesses, it's the same thing. It's crazy what you attract when you do that, you know? Oh yeah. You're putting it out there.  And they did get a lot of views. Social media. Yeah. And they did get a lot of views. Yeah, it was a formula. You track the different customer though. That's for damn sure. Damn, you know what's funny? Different culture.  Of course. All you have to do is mimic it. Of course. Get some trash on there. Well remember, we did want to do something similar. Remember when we talked about this? I would love, we tried to set it up a couple of times. The beef that was between... Oh, we want to do a debate. Yeah. Yeah, we want them to fight. Well no, yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, we wanted... It was Lane Norton and the Kyro guy. DeFranco's friend. Yeah, yeah, I forgot his name. We tried to get that together. Yeah, that would have been cool. I still think that would be a cool thing to do where we're the moderators of that. And you know, maybe just one of us does it and then you have two of these people that don't like each other and that are intelligent. So there's value for the cut. It's not, I don't want to... I couldn't sleep at night if it was purely for drama. Shit, yeah. Yeah, let's bring it on. Well Jerry Springer was no... There was nobody debating important. Yeah, there was no... There was nothing intelligent coming out of it.  Right, right.  Like big time. You're not the father. But I wouldn't feel good about putting it out there. I would feel good though about having like a Lane and someone else or a guy that, two polarizing personalities in the fitness space that don't like each other but then all are both are intelligent. That'd be fun. Yeah, I think so too. That'd be really, really fun. I think it'll eventually happen. Yeah, I would love to see that because I do want to see that ideas get discussed in that kind of a fashion so somebody can literally watch a video and see a vegan advocate go against a carnivore diet advocate and have them go back and forth and people who can argue their cases really well.  No, but don't you think we're like the right podcasters to host something like that? I would love that. Like I really feel like we would have a really non-biased. Keep the bias out of it. Yeah, let's just let them go and we'll prod them in the right direction and let the audience, like, you know, then you have the audience vote afterwards, like that's that one. Monk debates. Yeah, like the monk debates. Dude, the way they vote. That is really cool. Dude, have you watched any more of their debates? Yeah, well, which one did I watch last? What was the one you sent over? Oh, the one about religion. Yeah, yeah. It's brilliant and what they do that's brilliant is they don't just ask the audience at the end who won the debate. What they ask the audience beforehand is what is your current position on this topic? So everybody already has it. They've already said, okay, I believe. I would love to steal this idea exactly. And then the idea is to see who got swayed more at the end. So even though you have an audience of that, majority of them support one. For example, how dope would it be to have Lane and like Rob Wolf and say artificial sweeteners are bad for you? Yeah, artificial sweeteners. Right, and get that from the audience where you sit on there and then let those two have a conversation. And see who sways. Yeah, that would be so cool. Is sugar bad for you? Yeah, we'll give them the topic and then they just have to discuss it. That would be money, dude. I know it would be. That would be really good. I'd like to try and put it together. Now that it's on air, watch everything. I know, I know, I'm gonna be like, don't slide in my DM to let me know that. I know it's a good idea. We already know. Yeah, we've thought of this for a long time actually. It's on record now. We actually tried to put it together. That's why it's hard. It's hard to coordinate both guys. Because everybody's busy. Because it's such a new thing that we're doing or trying to do, I think that so many people are scared too. I felt that from when we were trying to get the last two together and I was like, well, nobody wants to feel like they're gonna get attacked or anything. We wanna make it as inviting as possible. It has to be in front of an audience, I think. I think it would be good to get that feedback from an audience. It would take a lot of organization. It really would. You'd film it and then you could put it on YouTube or whatever, but it would take some organization for sure.  Anyway, well, I tell you what, I'm super, super grateful for you guys. I'm extremely grateful for the people that have supported and listened to Mind Pump and supported us by enrolling in our programs and all that stuff. You guys, if you've listened to every 800 episodes, like, I don't know, we should do something for them, man.  We can't do anything for it. Well, this depends. Like, that's gonna be tough. We could go. Yeah, there's a lot of people these days now. I mean, let us know. Just let us know. I'll figure something out by then. Just like, you're a free teacher to everybody. Justin, come over and wash your car. Yeah. Yeah, good one, Doug.  Yeah, that's why I was like, I'm kidding. Son, if you get straight A's, I'm gonna buy you a fighter jet. Yeah! He'll never do it. Yeah, he does.   Oh, man. Anyway, super, super, super grateful for all the support and love and we're gonna keep doing what we're doing and more in the years to come. We're gonna, I think, I know a question that I'm sure people are wondering right now is like, what's in store for us in the future? And there's a lot of cool things that are down the pipe. But I think the thing that I am excited about is just a lot of the stuff that we've done, I think we're gonna do a lot better. And this is the part of the business that I know I was kind of putting the reins on a lot of people and being like, relax, we'll get here. We'll get to that point where we can really dress things up. We can really produce things up. We can really spend some money and some time in these areas because we're in this place now. So I'm excited to see a lot of those things unfold. So I like what I see happening with Taylor and what we're doing with the whole advertising side and the partnerships and the relationships that we're starting to form. And now these tours that we're gonna start doing, like I think that's a really exciting thing that's gonna be totally new.   It's gonna be great. It's gonna be totally excellent, man. I love what I see going on right now with Shannon and all the stuff that she's designing right now for the look because for a very long time, we just don't appeal to the masses. I think that the brand right now looks like you gotta be kind of a hardcore workout person or super into bodybuilding type of deal to even appeal to the brand. That's getting all changed right now. So that's gonna look so cool. The YouTube channel, I think we're really starting to find like our formula and what works and what people are wanting. I'm super excited about IGTV. Like that's where we're most active on Instagram and now that they're gonna be having their own TV. I mean, that's, we're gonna jump on that. That's gonna be interesting. Yeah, it'll be fun.  Excellent. Well, check it out. We have, I don't know, like some of my 12 free guides that we wrote. Great information, lots of value. They're absolutely free. Go to mindpumpfree.com. Find one that you like, download it, cost you nothing. Also, find us on Instagram. My page is Mind Pump Sal. Adam is at Mind Pump. Adam, Justin is at Mind Pump. Justin. Yeah. Thank you for listening to Mind Pump. If your goal is to build and shape your body, dramatically improve your health and energy, and maximize your overall performance, check out our discounted RGB Superbundle at mindpumpmedia.com. The RGB Superbundle includes Maps Anabolic, Maps Performance, and Maps Aesthetic. Nine months of phased expert exercise programming designed by Sal, Adam, and Justin to systematically transform the way your body looks, feels, and performs. With detailed workout blueprints and over 200 videos, the RGB Superbundle is like having Sal, Adam, and Justin as your own personal trainers, but at a fraction of the price. The RGB Superbundle has a full 30-day money-back guarantee, and you can get it now plus other valuable free resources at mindpumpmedia.com. If you enjoy this show, please share the love by leaving us a five-star rating and review on iTunes, and by introducing Mindpump to your friends and family. We thank you for your support, and until next time, this is Mindpump.