Welcome everyone to Senate Education, Wednesday, January 31st. We are returning to S-220 and inactivating to Vermont Public Libraries. Nice to have you here again and if you want to Catherine, kick us off with any response, anything you want to say, any amendments, any suggestions. Thank you so much for having a very happy to return to the Senate Committee. I'm going to provide some feedback on behalf of the Department of Libraries. You can have it written also. You do have not every word of it, but a paired down version. Great. Which I reference the specific language in the bill. So my name is Catherine Delnaio. I'm a state librarian and a commissioner of the Department of Libraries. Our thought collectively is that I'll share the department's perspective and there are also folks here from the Vermont School Library Association and Vermont School Library Association and the Vermont Library Association, each of which have slightly different perspectives and different focuses from the department who will also provide feedback and then we will be happy to answer questions. So the department appreciates the strong support of the senators. Let me start over. And the department appreciates the strong support that the bill's performance have offered to libraries in Vermont. And many aspects of the bill S-220 relate to the recommendations of the working group on the status of libraries in Vermont directly. Those recommendations were based on more than two years of listening to the community. And the working group's membership included leaders both from the Vermont Library Association and from the Vermont School Library Association. I provided you with a document that you have access to, which outlines the department's position on each element of S-220, and I'll review key points of that document looking now. The department offers a strong support for amending statute to require that all public libraries adopt policies for the selection and reconsideration of materials that complies with the First Amendment, the Civil Rights Act, and state laws prohibiting discrimination in places of public accommodation. The department has a kind of a footnote here. There is a bill that is moving in-house through the house. I'm going to start for one moment. It looks like Morgan, Senators, are going to get a new copy. So why don't you give us the instance of it? Unless it's in our bookers today. Sorry, it's on S-220. Thank you. There is a bill related to school library collection development and reconsideration of policies that I want to draw to your attention. I've been in a house since House Bill 807. And these two bills are similar, seem to relate to one another. And the department would recommend that if possible, the legislature will line the language in both bills. And the department's preference is the language of this bill, related to collection development and reconsideration of materials. So the department is generally supportive of amending statute to empower the department to develop model policies for public libraries. Then library boards around the state could choose to adopt those policies that are law policies wholesale, or they could revise them to meet the needs of their local communities. So we really look at collection development and reconsideration policies at the local matter. We're happy to provide guidance to libraries about best practices. We are supportive that the model policy varies. We're also very supportive of an amendment to statute that would require the department to adopt a collection development policy. We have an existing collection development policy, which we were already in the process of updating it. And we are happy to update it so that it reflects diversity of race, ethnicity, sex, gender identity, sexual orientation and disability status, and for most diverse people in history. Just a note on this, that language aligns with statute related to the state curators collection development policy that already exists. The department offers its strong support for amending statute to lower the age of confidentiality of public library records from 16 years of age to 12. This change would align the age of confidentiality in public libraries with the age at which youth may make medical decisions on matters of drug and alcohol abuse treatment and mental health treatment independently already. What section are you on? I am on page 911 set. And we have your written response here. So what do you have your written response or testimony? The written response, I am on the top of page two. Yeah. Yeah, got it. Got it? Okay. Probably best to stick to your written testimony. Okay. This document. So do read this rather than. Yeah, I think so. I mean, it's going in the same order. As long as it's in the same order. Yeah, great. Because we just don't have a copy yet in front of us. So, okay. Just know that. I can also share my written version of it. Be great. So. So, section seven. Section seven. The department supports governor Scott's fiscal year 2025 budget, which does not include the positions in this section. I'm training and education for library staff. The department and supports the. Inclusion of an obligation. Changing a word may forward shall. Related to continuing education for library directors and library staff and statute. We also welcome addition. Welcome language that would empower the department to provide the certificate in public librarianship program for library directors. We already do that work, but it would be good to have that in statute. Just a side here. If you look on. If you look forward slightly. To page four. Number four. Establish continuing education requirements for public library trustees. This is also a continuing education talk. The department was not in favor of this addition to statute. We already offer. Public library. Just direct us to this. I am. Page four. Okay. Number four. Got it. Yes. Thank you. And thanks for slowing me down. The department currently offers training for public library trustees and we'll have that. So. Adding requirements about that might be more appropriate to invent in statute related to trustees and their roles and responsibilities. The department has not had success in getting all of the 935 library trustees to take our regular trainings. And I think it would be quite challenging to make sure that they show up for training. So. Moving back to the public safety section on page two. The department supports the amendment to criminal threatening. Which already pertains in municipal public libraries. The update would appropriately provide intense protections to those in incorporated public libraries. And I think it would be quite challenging to make sure that they show up for trainings and to track their compliance with that statute. Moving back to the public safety section on page two. The department has not had any further restrictions to those in incorporated public libraries. The department doesn't have an opinion at this time on the proposed amendment related to the possession of a dangerous or deadly weapon in a public library setting. The department plans to research this topic more thoroughly as it questions the constitutionality of the proposed change given that public libraries are public facilities. So then looking at library governance, I think it would be quite challenging to make sure that they show up for training. Moving back to the public safety section on page two. The department generally supports the amendments to library governments. And has provided some language that might have through clarity in the sections. Verifying that. The public library board adopt policies right now. It has language related to directors, which people might think are in the library directors, but they don't have any specific policies. It's important to note that 30% of public libraries in Vermont are not, not municipal public libraries. And that this section, my understanding is that this section on library governments is specific to municipal public libraries and would not have any impact on incorporated public libraries. You could just make that distinction for me. Sure. In Vermont there are two types of public libraries. They both provide the same service and when you're in your community, you may not even know what the government structure is of your public library. For example, here, our public library is the public library. I believe they are an incorporated public library. They received municipal appropriations, but they are an incorporated entity and nonprofit public library. So in statute of public libraries, there's a section about public libraries and there is a first section at the top is about incorporated public libraries. And the second is about municipal public libraries. The way that this is revised would only impact the specific sections and lines that are cited in this bill would only impact municipal public libraries and would not make a difference about with relation to the statute of maintenance or the appropriations or the trustees better. I'm just focusing that attention because you might otherwise not be aware of that distinction. The department's files show that approximately 70% of the public libraries are municipal and about 30% are incorporated. And they do provide the same service. They both provide free service. And it's really just a matter of how they were originally adopted. And the incorporated public library is not a part of municipal government, but typically received municipal appropriations through townspeople. Moving on to the section on the department of libraries section 15. The department is in favor of the amendment to section 606. The department has some questions about the legislator's goals in the section. And what the impacts would be for public libraries if they didn't comply with minimum standards established by the department. There are currently minimum standards from 1986 that the department has established and they are all recommended. The department's perspective is that if we're simply making recommendations then the rulemaking process may not be necessary and it may actually get in the way of our work with our regular library community. We're happy to develop policies. We're happy to implement them. We're happy to implement them on benchmarks or baselines based on tiers. We like that approach. But rulemaking is a somewhat cumbersome process. And so you're wondering if there's another way to address this. Since most of what the bill is addressing is really a recommendation. And since the aspects related to collection development are covered in another section of the bill. We're happy to adopt model policies and to establish some recommendations of service levels by tiers. Section why are you talking about? Section 16. Section 16. Section 16. On page 3 under the department of libraries. Just trying to make sure I covered everything. I want to call out something on the first page of my handout to you which is around the licensing of electronic literary products. This is a very complex topic and I'm frankly having trouble understanding the implications and what would happen if this bill were passed in this way. I think that the bill would definitely have impacts for our contracts at the department of libraries and potentially for public libraries, school libraries, academic libraries all around the state. And I don't understand exactly how that would play out over time when the working group made its recommendation. We really were thinking about access. We want to increase access and we know that costs that funding is tight everywhere and Vermonters want to keep their tax rates low and we know that it's hard for us to buy books and to buy electronic resources too. We're really very concerned that if we move quickly on this legislation we might have some unintended consequences and we would encourage a little bit of a slower role on this so that we really think about it in terms of what's the intent that we have and maybe could our legislators and others in the region, other states do things in concert. Vermont has a really small market share and to be frank I'm a little concerned that publishers would just not sell to us some language in this bill makes me wonder if they didn't sell to us at the same price as the public consumer. Would people like Chair Campion who uses the automobile, would you be impacted? I don't actually know. To the most important. We want to keep your access to e-books strong. I really appreciate you raising it. We have Mr. Sherman in the room who's going to come in next week to represent the industry and have a conversation also concerned about what the unintended consequences are. Thank you Chair. As a co-lead sponsor of this bill, I agree that this is a very complicated area so I would not be opposed to removing it but I would all, I'd have to discuss it with the other lead sponsor but could you possibly suggest some language that focuses strictly on access which is really sounds like that's what we're looking for. I think potentially yes. I think that what's really important is that we want to ensure that Vermonters have access to these materials, e-books, e-audio books and also our digital databases, our online databases that include digitized books for optics. So we want to be sure that we have that. I think that the concern is really that the industry has two different price points and that we're again and again which really is impacting our collections budgets and kind of putting the squeeze on library. So I think the department supports any way we can improve that dynamic and would encourage our colleagues in the industry to really consider that. Yeah, my sense is that this is, this is a world that's going to keep changing and more thing and evolving and so we have to sort of stay you know supple and I would react as well. So thanks. You're welcome. Would you mind sharing just a little bit of what's happening right now in libraries as it relates to this do you remind? I actually think it might be good. Great, great, great. One of the libraries sells and I know some of my colleagues are prepared to speak to that. I just want to I just want to share one thing and I've forgot to include it in my notes about that. Chair Campion, you had asked me what does this fill this and there's an important thing related to the work of the department of libraries. I think we recommend it and I will provide you with my written notes and I will update this for you. There is an important aspect of statute related to the department that says that the department shall be the primary access point for state information and provide advice on state information technology policy. The working group recommended that because we now have 211 we now have the internet the other departments the legislature nobody comes to the department is asking us to review the information architecture or what's on your web pages that this is really outdated and it could be removed with no impact to information to state and would align better with our staffing levels and our capacity and no one would have this expectation. I of course would be happy to continue to serve on any board and provide technical assistance as I always have but this statute doesn't align with today this is a kind of old question. It is it's not on here at all but it's chapter 22 section 606. I didn't need to know about it. Nobody does. When I can't find things on that are parts of the state's information I always note that I wouldn't have done it that way. I think I made a comment to my colleagues about that. Just curious. I don't know I don't know it's on page 23 of the working group I was just a suggestion to remove it from the statute and I do want to say before I pass things over to my colleagues that I do really appreciate that. I don't know if it's on page 23 of the working group. I was just a suggestion to remove it from the statute and I do really appreciate the attention that Senator Bullock and Senator Hardy have paid to the recommendations of the working group. The library community engaged in a very in-depth process over two years and as the chair of that body I have to say it is really meaningful that you are listening that you are trying to help us to provide the best service that we can. Public libraries, academic and school libraries in the state and we really appreciate the opportunity to share with you areas where what seemed to be pretty minor changes could have a significant impact so I appreciate your time today. I live right here in town. I'm happy to come back to talk about this fall. If anything more death goes into the bill but if my colleagues who came from further away I want to move off. Any other questions for Ms. Dillnow? Thanks a million. Of course. Thank you. Do you want to come up? So nice to see you. Thank you. Thank you so much. I'm Oceana Wilson. I'm the president of the Brant Library Association and the dean of the library at Bennington College. I will pick up on what we just talked about which was electronic literary products. So page 5 and 7 section 162 section 63. Vermont Library Association is very concerned about the importance of e-books and e-audio stream for monitors. He's playing a critical role in providing access given the ruralness of Vermont and winter travel for many of our people being able to access these books and audio online are essential. We also play a significant role in vulnerable populations such as vision impairment and early and helps with early and reluctant readers at a young age often audio is seen as is an entry way. So while we are grateful for the attention in this bill and it's important we would also ask that there be a pause and make sure this legislation as written will have the effect on the impact that we are looking for. So we are in agreement with the Vermont Department of Library group. In a second and also Mary the Vice President of VLA is going to share further so I'm doing part of the VLA responsibility together. The Vermont Library Association would like to express very strong support for section 67 public library statement of policy use of facilities on page 7 and section 69 public library section and consideration of library materials age 8. I would like to extend appreciation to Senator Hesheen for reaching out on behalf of his constituents these raising the concerns that we are seeing across the country in the time to sensor and challenge material. 2023 was the highest rating of book challenges in the past 20 years is recorded by the American Library Association and we are starting to see similar increases in programming challenges. We feel that these two sections provide very strong clear support that libraries must act within the Civil Rights Act, the First Amendment. The freedom to read for all Vermonters is so essential that we cannot allow a voice or single group of voices to decide for individuals what they want to read and what they want to think and we feel that that's a very strong and important protection and we are very grateful for the addition to this. Our colleagues at the library association and the Vermont Library Association recently issued a Vermont freedom to read statement based on the insurance that all Vermonters can access this fundamental freedom so we are very grateful for those additions and strongly support that. Thank you. Any questions? Great, thank you very much. Mary, is it Danko? It's Mary Danko. I'm the director at the Fletcherby Library in Burlington, Vermont. I was also the director at the Wethersfield Proctor Library in Vermont which was big 155 square feet and I was a one-person library in there and I was also the library in Heartland, Vermont. It was a small library so I feel like I have good experience across different size libraries. Mary, did somebody tell you that this is a tough committee? Yes. Not. The nicest group. I heard you may have said something. You were talking in a good way. He said he was a real library supporter though. He is a real library supporter. He is a real library supporter. He is terrific. Bringing internet to libraries a long time ago. Thank you. Well, thank you for being here. I'm so glad to be here and grateful for all the hard work with the working group and the bill and there's a lot here. There was just a couple of things I wanted to speak to and one was on section 172 which was the confidentiality piece and lowering the age to 12. We are so in favor of lowering that age personally I'm going to put on my Fletcher Free Library hat as Fletcher Free Library Director. I would even love it to be lower. I think as Oceano was saying we really believe in the freedom to read and we trust the reader and we know that children as young as 8, 9 and 10 are sometimes getting material from the library that has been curated by library professionals that has great meaning and impact on their lives. Some of these children are going through really tough times. They are really struggling and credible very information that's provided by their public library in a private way is very, very important to them. I hope this is a section that we continue to look at and the intellectual freedom committee which is part of the Vermont Library Association has not had a chance to weigh fully on this but we are digging deeper with them. Ms. Daniel, tell us what this would do that's not happening right now by the age? Right now if a parent came in and a child who was 15 had a book out that said something like maybe the topic was about incest or sexual abuse or maybe it's just something like the parents are going through a divorce or they think the parents are going through a divorce. There's a little wide range of parents. Their parent could ask to see their library record. I see. So the mom could come in and say I want to know what my son Johnny's been taking out and we have to provide that information. It's not private for them. By lowering the age their record is private. Senator, what's the current age? It's 16. And I may be wrong but Ms. Delano, last week did you say that in some states there is no age? That is correct. There are a number of states with no age listed at all. The working group had a lot of discussion on this topic and ultimately consensus was around lowering it to 12 because of specific legislation in Vermont related to alcohol abuse treatment and substance abuse treatment which children who are 12 years of age older can make autonomous decisions. They can make decisions about going to a medical professional and getting help for those conditions and also I'm trying to think of I'm missing one more topic but there's medical abuse treatment substance abuse treatment and STD treatment and also topics like if they were went in and their child was in a terrible situation of being in an abusive relationship and they were making reproductive decisions those things are all already enshrined in statute and so lowering the age to 12 to align with that seemed like it would be a good match because if the child can make a decision we want them to make an informed decision using vetted resources not just googling it and hoping for the best with the information that they get the information from the public library would be of a higher quality would be selected by professionals would be factual and to just mention for those who weren't here last week one of the senators had you had mentioned something about the databases when we have database contracts in libraries that information is typically not available to other people but the child if they logged in with their library card their safe searches and things like that could be seen by their parents so I just wanted to add that qualification around the database searching thank you the American Library Association has a whole page and it has all the different states but yes there are many states that have no age limit at all is there a power age or a median age or something like that to reference a few states I'm just curious what would be on the other side I would have to do that research this morning I think I looked at California, Maine and Montana all had no ages I believe New Hampshire I'm sorry I worked in New Jersey I believe Massachusetts as well it's a good intern project I need to have a go to that the other topic is section 4,004 which is about adding libraries and not having weapons on site we have not had enough chance I think as an association to delve in on this I think some of us that are in more urban environments with welcome this I think some places that are in more rural environments are not quite sure what I will say that I think we're grateful for is that the working group heard that there are a lot of people that are in the community I think I'm a little bit sharing some of the stats that I brought from Fletcher Free Library but we are seeing an increase of incidents where we are trespassing people we have a fairly robust ordinance depending on the egregiousness of the behavior we can trespass someone and it's just gone through the roof people are in challenging situations and they are acting out in ways that is just not appropriate and we're trying to keep our staff safe and we're trying to keep the other people using the library that is safe so thinking about those things in terms of how we can help keep libraries safe is something we really want to keep working at and I would say I might be able to say something that's not on here sure the one thing that public libraries don't have is sustainable funding and I know that's not so much in your purview on this bill but it's something that when I have a chance at this table I would like to bring it up and something specific that has really been highlighted over the past year is funding for our capital projects our improvements remodeling even new libraries and we've gotten some great ARPA money that's coming down and a lot of libraries is going to be hitting out through a grant process but as they will tell you when they did the needs assessments for what our libraries need they're not going to even make it with $25 million that you're set to give away between the two funding sources that are coming so how that would help us is if we knew there was reliable funding for these capital projects we wouldn't be having money for us to take care of our safety needs to take care of our collection needs because we wouldn't be so worried about the maintenance and upkeep of our basic infrastructure so it would be really great to build and improve on the wonderful start that we have with this funding that's coming Massachusetts does a great job of it they've set aside that funding they have linked it with LEED funding certifications as well so when these projects come on there's somebody at the table that's saying it's sustainable as well so that's my parting gift to them I appreciate it we're struggling also construction issues with our schools so many buildings in the state we just want a little bit of online gambling money well I appreciate it coming with actively a source I will tell you when we see things that come down the path that have addictive qualities to them and then really start to have impacts on our social service structures the library is there we're the ones that are seeing these folks that are then down and out because of the stuff so to me there is a relationship I appreciate you saying that as well I think just speaking of myself I'm not in libraries as much as I used to be I'm sure that's true with a lot of people and you forget that yes indeed there's so many resources in there and that people who are in need of some mental, social physical support arrive there at your doorstep as well so I appreciate it thank you so much thank you Mr. Diverts are that correct? we're doing okay we have about 20 plus minutes not just for you thank you I'll keep it brief thank you all for having us here today and talking about this S220 my name is Charles Diverts I'm a middle school librarian in Burlington as my ninth year as a librarian and my 22nd as an educator mostly in the state I'm here with our co-president we're not already where we're the professional organization for school librarians we have about 200 members in the state we want to thank the working group and all the work that they did and for the proposals in this work and I should also point out Senator Buele is a former librarian as well not only a teacher and a school board member are you going to serve this? we haven't celebrated Senator Buele enough today I just wanted to so thank you and we have a couple provisions that we like to speak of from the library school library for you the first is not in our great comments but it was mentioned and that's in relation to House Bill 807 which has some material selection policies in school libraries and Vermont school libraries supports that language and we hope that as it comes together it's different because that is about working with personal boards and language in here is our public library so I think they mirror each other but they could be different probably should be other provisions specifically to ST20 that we like to talk about or at least reference and my great comments about e-books not e-books and we don't know specifically if this is the answer to that and I wrote in my comments about some of the challenges that schools actually face because of that but we would hope that any couple of legislatures can provide in this area but in fact our schools and public libraries and all of us not just that one case of library world so that's just something that we're looking forward to the second area and maybe the most important for us is the addition of school library position and the agency of education on the bill page 9 section 7 this is something we believe again could have a tremendous impact on the Vermont school libraries this habit position existed in Vermont for many decades actually from the late 1960s up to the early 2000s and I outlined some of the things that the position formally did for us as a consultant that was a little before my time in the library but we recognized the value that that position had and especially having a library advocate in the department of education was instrumental in establishing the requirement in 1999 2000 educational quality standards of every Vermont school has a library and we're fortunate to live in the state that recognized the importance of school librarians and my colleague and vice president sorry co-presidents we're back at Soferment and we'll talk a little bit more about the importance of that position for us what we think that could do for our school libraries thank you very much for this I have a question about that because we generally like look at what's happening in the AOE and understanding what's going on there and what their capacity is resources etc I know there is no dedicated decision that's liaison is there someone though in the AOE that is sort of a go-to person for school librarians I when I was a librarian I don't remember that but I wonder if you with lack of this position we reached out to the AOE in adoption for our school library standards which have not been adopted yet but we're hoping to be adopted and we've had liaison well not in the way that this position would be created but someone that we meet with Lisa and she's great but her background is non-libraries is it help the position that was not created in the way that we efficient some of the things that you do that's a lot more than they I think have the position any final questions did I cut you off no for sure okay I'm going to pass it off to Rebecca all right stop it thanks for joining us thank you Rebecca thank you so much for having us we really appreciate it I've been I'm a librarian full president of the library association I've been a librarian for 15 years the first seven of those from New York state and in New York they have these called for education services and it is like a regional kind of cooperative that they share all kinds of services and one each of those regions has a library director so in my early years this library I had this position that was you know they supported new librarians it was incredible as a new librarian has to support you and they also provided a lot of services I'm going to outline with some of those things for our position but it was a similar kind of a thing as what we're talking about when I came to Vermont eight years ago back to Vermont but I really missed that and I've missed it ever since because we don't have that specific importance I don't want to discount the department of libraries I don't know how helpful department of libraries is but it is school librarians are the school library is a little bit different in the way that we work and specifically that we also are teachers and so we are really governed under the agency of education so having somebody specifically in that agency will be really really credible and when we met she asked us what is the number one thing out here that we've been thinking of we hands down this position of a library consultant one of the reasons why that was a library consultant are you talking about within the eight weeks okay yes I'm not talking about the voices that's the number one that's the number one thing for the school library was really coming from the whole report so we were so happy to see that still as the very correct thing so in school libraries we're usually the only person in our building that does what we do we're the only person of the nation it's very common to be the only one in our district sometimes and so there isn't as much support as many other teachers have for their discipline and for all their needs um um districts in your own part of the state are finding it difficult to fill a library position right now and teachers and community members without library training are being put into those roles in many very frequently and they're expected to just start running a library right away and they are usually immediately enrolled in the BVM courses to get a certification that's a two year process that they have to go through so that's two years full time no they take it up with a master's degree it's a certificate so what's happening is frequently it's somebody who's a teacher in that school they can't fill the position they ask somebody to come into that role and they just have no library background at all they have the education background but they don't have any library which is not the same and so it's really hard for these people and that's just sort of one example for the new librarians so a lot of the provisions in 2020 pertaining more to school librarians but to public libraries but for us this we recognize this as final to our mission to have the school library consultant so these are some duties that we came up with that we think that just in new librarians but to all school librarians one of them will facilitate the adoption of our standards which came out in 2018 these are our national standards I don't know if I'm sure you're aware as an institution but all disciplines have their own sense of standards that they talk to by by that guys how they teach what they teach how they teach in their discipline so these are our standards for our discipline and so do something about it we want students consequently don't have equitable access to learning these information literacy skills the physician can protect students freedom to read by making sure all school districts have updated library selection policies and reconsideration of materials procedures guided by the intellectual freedom policies from the American Library Association and the Vermont grant review statement that is in the bill though correct this language some of us business in the bill right and I want to reiterate kind of what Char said in that school libraries have a slightly different way that those challenges would come into play and the way that that would impact schools because we have school boards and I know libraries have library boards but the language of H807 is very specific to schools and how things would kind of proceed in this school library setting in a district when those challenges happen I do agree that it's important all libraries to have those zero selection policies so if there is a way to kind of align the language and still keep the specific language I pass to do with school boards I think that it's all important if it's helpful and how more powerful to have that combined so then next thing would be like assess school library program assessments assessing how well your programs are going negotiating license agreements to provide consortium pricing for things like ebooks, audio books, video streams subscriptions, databases use sources and library catalog systems some of that currently is coming through the Department of Libraries but they can't always provide everything that the schools need for example right now we are we have a public performance license which kind of covers schools for against copyright violations when we show movies it's not considered necessarily automatically always be our use to show a movie in school so having that performance license is really important to protect schools for many kind of literature and the Department of Libraries was able to help with pricing in the past but they're not able to do that anymore so that means that that license which is so important in schools is currently something that schools are going to have to potentially face on their own and have the cost is cost prohibitive for a lot of schools especially the smaller ones so having our own representative to be able to negotiate things that are pertaining to school libraries is really important ensuring that that's being most adhered to the education quality standards in regards to library staffing and safety not all districts right now have their library positions all filled partly because they can't always find people so it's not always a potential thing it's not an intentional thing but having somebody to be able to really look out for that and be paying attention and following through when we be there so I'm wondering if that that seems like it would be something that the AOE would do and that's another issue that comes up every once in a while in this committee is what is the AOE's responsibility in terms of enforcement and support because those two sort of go together so that is that gives us something to think about and it really ties into the capacity of the AOE and when we met with Lisa the last time just a couple of times and brought up a couple of school districts that we had concerns about and they said that they were going to follow up but for somebody she does not have the time to be chasing that not so much chasing it down but keeping tabs on it and we don't either necessarily trying to do that just in our capacity as co-presidents but it would be really helpful to have somebody who could really be on top of that Thank you but I am going to just follow up and I'll be done with my questions for you but I'm loving all of these suggestions and I want you to finish for sure I'm just wondering in terms of us getting these into a bill if they would make more sense in the house in the H807 or in this one and we can think about that but I just wanted to put that out there I don't want to speak for it but we feel like these are examples of things that that position if it was added could do and we're happy to work with the AOE to say here are some of the things we need we're just kind of outlining how that position could be beneficial to our students I'm not sure each of these need to be written into a bill legislated but as you're thinking about the importance of this position this is why especially because we know we've got money that we possibly might support Thank you Okay sort of collaborating with the UVM graduate program that currently is providing as I mentioned licensing and a certification program for new library and so it's six courses that they take to be certified for teaching background there's different pathways and so right now Charles and I both teach actually in that sequence and right now there's 40 students in cohort so we're really hopeful this is exciting it's a good thing that we're finding more people that want to be librarians and we're hoping that maybe they can help fill some of those gaps that are in these libraries that can fill positions but helping to coordinate that working with UVM to coordinate that and maybe help those students find their way to the libraries that many people would be another thing that that person could do And I'm sorry to interrupt but if you could just sort of wrap up just because we've got more witnesses on this so if there's a shift I'm afraid and then the only other two things we're helping coordinate our mentoring program which is already in place against the librarians that might be going undergoing challenges so again not to discount the help of the department libraries but you can see that there are things that the AOE can do because we are under the realm of the our teachers so we're governed by the Department of Education that requires slightly different things Just to have a listen if you're concerned or I think several of us are concerned about the agency of education and the lack of capacity as right now this is just one example and see between our conversations with the administration and our friends and corporations and advance some of these decisions going forward particularly I'd say around educational enforcement development and content Any final questions we shift to Miss Cook Thank you Miss Cook I'm fine Yes Hello can you hear me Yes we can hear you but we don't see you yet Okay I don't know why you can't see me Okay Something on our end or Well you're short on time so if you don't mind I'll just go ahead and do my voice only My name is Rebecca Cook I'm the director of Pultney Public Library I strongly agree with the Department of Libraries and the Vermont Library Association on all the positions they outlined so I won't waste your time going over any of those to reiterate I did want to take a moment to speak with you today about page 11 section 10 1004 possession of dangerous or deadly weapon in a public library I do agree that library safety is a huge issue these days it's definitely something we deal with all the time My concern is that in small and rural libraries where we don't have sufficient public safety there is not any backup for librarians trying to enforce this law Pultney does not have its own police force we have an elected constable and we control some hours with the Rutland County Sheriff's Department but when I've had to call for police backup in the library sometimes it's a matter of days before I get help Our emergency plan involves yelling out the side door to the gentlemen in the pickup trucks that hang out outside of Stewart's to come help us so in that environment I'm concerned that that leaves library staff to confront armed people and ask them not to be armed in the library which would in turn make us less safe I also have concerns about alienating a significant number of our library members who do carry holstered firearms or sheathed knives as a regular part of their daily apparel and who have never posed a security threat but would no longer be welcome in our libraries so I just wanted to kind of reach out and share my thoughts on that Any other comments, Miss Cook? That's just the main thing that I'd like to see our small towns get more public safety and to see libraries be a part of that And then as you mentioned otherwise you're supportive of the of the bill or of what your colleagues have shared today Yes, very much so in regards to policies accessibility confidentiality all of that very much on board with the Vermont Department of Libraries and the Vermont Library Association Perfect, you know you have senators on this committee Hello Thank you for including me Senator Weeks and Senator Williams Any final questions for Miss Cook Yes, Senator Husche Thank you for the perspective that you provided there I appreciate that I think I guess my question would be do you have any thoughts on making this rule a sort of opt-in option for libraries because librarians and towns know the people in that town better and, you know, for example my librarian in Brattleboro is very strong support of this because of past incidents and it's obviously very different from public so if you have any opinions on making this an option for librarians or towns to decide upon I would love to see this decided on a town by town library by library basis because I do definitely see huge benefits for my colleagues in more urban city libraries it's just one of the great things about Vermont but also one of the difficulties is that the day-to-day life experience in the small towns and in the cities is completely different and so there really is not a one-size-fits-all answer Great discussion please I have a general question I believe Captain what's the flow of funding to municipal libraries is there like a split between local taxes property taxes supporting a library versus state funding or federal funding we could describe it this way so the funding comes from municipalities up there is the Department of Libraries provides some grants to public libraries in the state both municipal and incorporated to support interlibrary loan to support some summer programming but libraries in Vermont are funded at the municipal level and by local funds some libraries have endowments as well but there is most public libraries that will go in front of their municipality on town meeting day you'll find library directors across the state engaged that day making a pitch for their library budgets and hoping that they get support from the municipalities that's the primary source of funding for public libraries in our state both incorporated and municipal thank you all so much for coming and thank you for everything that you do and this has been a really terrific conversation I feel like we create some progress on advancing the bill thank you thank you thank you so much if you want to just stretch for a minute welcome back to senate education we are now going to shift to adults education literacy network this is budget adjustment conversation so welcome and I believe you've already been senate appropriations have you not been we have not you have not been well we're thrilled you're here and we're coordinating our test and why don't we just because we don't do it we just go around and introduce ourselves so you know where we're from and you can share yourselves and we'll start with senator a lot of the shame from Donaldson Joe Chris for her from London Health Learning Katherine Kloss from central Vermont adult education Terry Williams from all the county and what we're going Dave Weeks representing all the county from other advocates and guests may post action samples Billy rising University of Vermont great thanks okay and of course we have work up Finn who is good to see you Morgan's over here Laura's yours so you all should have a of a PowerPoint presentation how to kind of record some of those slides through that quickly so we are here before you about a budget adjustment request so I just wanted to say thank you for allowing us to present to you today on behalf of the Vermont adult education literacy network in regards to our year 24 requests for budget adjustments additional funding of $500,000 dollars our network is comprised of four adult education and literacy providers in the state which includes central Vermont adult education in the green the northeast kingdom learning services in yellow the tutorial center in pink and Vermont adult learning we serve the entire state and are able to serve students regardless of where they are requested for an additional $500,000 a budget adjustment to the one million received as one time funding this year's budget this financial support will keep us out of the red by funding staffing salaries and benefits technology software upgrades hardware textbooks supplies and other instructional materials and outreach and recruitment we are extremely grateful for wondering and one time funds but it does not meet our needs as the cost of business increases and it will continue to rise time 30 the 2022 US census community survey found that there are around 35,000 out of school Vermont girls in addition, there are 10 of them who have a diploma but lack the academic and job readiness skills needed for the most high demand jobs in Vermont each year we open opportunities for thousands of those Vermonters by helping them build the skills they need for better jobs furthering their education for better or developing new job skills but revenue from the state has not kept pace with the increasing cost of providing these services at the same time the number of Vermont's Vermonters taking our services has significantly increased in recent years we have all heard about the disconnect between the number of jobs available in Vermont and the number of workers available we can be a part of the solution but we need the funding to do it on slide 4 as I mentioned we are extremely grateful for the one time funding we received over the last several years but it still does not meet our needs and the cost of business has increased in recent years your support in providing our request for an additional $500,000 to the AEL network will ensure that we can adequately serve and reach more Vermonters and help them build the asset they need to take advantage of the many workforce development opportunities in Vermont slide 5 our work changing lives it's really true if you want to see it for yourself we would love to have you join to connect me to the power of all of work there I hear the stories from students the stories of their dreams of the challenges they have overcome of the AEL staff who believed in them more than they believed in themselves of their newfound confidence in their ability of the difference their education is making to their families and the opportunities for jobs or education they are pursuing the majority of our students live in poverty have a disability identify the person of color experience homelessness or are unemployed many are parents with school age children often they come to us lacking the technology the skills or the recesses to work or learn remotely more often than not they face a combination of these barriers more and more of our students are immigrants while some of these immigrants never learn to read or write in their own language others are highly educated professionals but because they lack the ability to speak read and write in English they end up locating many of the jobs what they all have in common is the desire to learn and grow the AELM helps them do that by providing a full range of services from learning to speak and read English to pathways for learning to high school diploma or achievement on slide six we have a story of one of our students in her fifth grade Wendy came to us with no high school diploma and a body unable to continue to be a barn manager for over a thousand years she says with the help of my teachers at CVAE I was able to fill my dream of having a high school diploma as well as get the resources to go with the allied health program and community college of Vermont I worked full time as an LNA while I earned my allied health certificate prior to discovering CVAE I avoided the topic of high school graduations because I hadn't actually graduated from mine I'm sorry repeat that last line I avoided the topic of high school graduations because she hadn't actually completely graduated from her own high school so in conversation or also just when you go to a peak and you know it was that wow many of our students say that like I never wanted to confess some of my closest friends don't know that I don't have allies my CVAE teacher gave me a motivational calendar which I kept for encouragement they gave me tools I challenged myself and it happened I didn't stop there my diploma was a stepping stone becoming an LNA and an LPN and proud to become registered nurse so when the story just illustrates the value that Vermont's AEL network brings to the workforce to develop a picture we provide skills essential assets and create a viable pipeline to careers your investment will allow us to continue that final work slide seven many of the students we work with are not ready for other educational or training opportunities we're kind of that first step for them on the pathway there are a lot of amazing training purposes out there already but if you don't have the basic skills to be successful there your first stop will develop education in addition to the academic service we provide we work closely with students to craft a personal life learning plan and connect them to social services to support their educational journey once they develop the skills needed with the educational training opportunities start them on your computer path these opportunities include programs CTE centers, CCB and a VSC system slide eight many Vermont jobs and training opportunities require a high school credential for Vermonters who drop out of high school or immigrants who never had the opportunity to go to high school we provide preparation and testing for the GVT we also run a high school completion program for CTE, any Vermonter age 16 or older who does not have a diploma has the opportunity to earn a diploma from a local high school this not only provides the credential they need for further training or education but can provide opportunities for career exploration and preparation often with the CTE centers as part of the work they do their graduation requirements slide nine Vermont's AELM providers provide an excellent value for the money our cost per student is close to $3,000 over 140 adults received their high school credentials through us last year and we followed more students into college and job training programs 100% of our students come to us either unemployed or with fragile employment and many find they're getting more consistent employment imagine the dent in our workforce shortage hit the 30,000 plus without diplomas and the tens of thousands more with low skills imagine the workforce and the high need jobs available to us we served over 500 English line with foreigners last year they come here with an American dream with the desire to learn, integrate into their communities and move into high need positions we are their halfway to that dream low literacy is directly tied to crime, generational poverty and even low health outcomes and high health costs we are only asking another $225 for students a number that on its face is small but is profound in what we will do for our students your investment in AEL can make that a reality thank you for allowing me to talk with you about this request and we're happy to answer any questions that you have Sir Williams did you mention that we are part of the AEL yes we have a appointment with me yes you will start yes so the chair of appropriations can ask I'm sorry I missed this but why not wait until 2025 the next budget cycle so the reason we're here in this we came originally and asked for $1.5 million for the AEL and we were said we will give you $1 million and we would like to convene a study committee and then come back to us for the added $500,000 great that's very helpful one question and I think it's just almost I don't think it's a problem does anybody ever have difficulty finding all of you you know it's such an incredible resource I don't see signs I don't see you know do people get there and how do they get there is it through their doctor's office they definitely get there that's great I love that could more get there I'm sure they could have our name known more widely but I'd say the primary place should be primary places students or others who have been involved in our program in some way refer others and then schools we work very closely with the schools when they know somebody who's headed they're just not doing well they're headed out the door they'll be staring towards our learning centers early on there work with them it's the best choice for them to stay in a school if possible but that doesn't work as much as we'd like to say that all the schools have great programs that support everybody it's just not there it's just a simple bank and it was talking about how she was having trouble with her team working and he said yeah, he's down the street you should go down and talk with them are you tired of the CTE schools we work pretty closely with them we have organizations who used to call them right across right down the door and there's often confusion we're more focused on the base skills we'll work together sometimes around with students that need both that happen quite commonly in our high school education program we'll identify some CTE courses that will help students move towards their learning goals their career goals so we have a CTE bill or portions of it just talk to them it's a great question we'll want a recommendation in the next couple of days so this would be done separately both for this for this market this is for the budget adjustment but yeah, it's going forward we can have conversations about collaboration coordination a lot of times I know Stafford doesn't have enough seats so they'd actually taken some of the high school education into the night into the night portion that's my question this conversation is really about the VA how many high school students would you say you'd roughly have do you mean high school high school age yeah, kids that need something different or need some tutorial something that they're not finding in their high school yeah or just extra help we tend to have older students at CRP yeah, and even reminded up learning to serve from lots of counties from county to county at various but I think the last time I looked 16 to 18 year olds made up 20% of our population remember Ray, I could get you the exact number I would appreciate that now it would be really helpful, yeah thank you so much for coming in you do amazing work speaking to you the third person, not good you do great work and thank you so much I would just maybe suggest to the committee that we hear about the results of the fast force because we did spend time working on this and it would be good to hear whether or not a task force itself would recommend do you think the task force would not recommend I don't want to speak with the AOE was in trouble in that I don't want to hear as many voices as possible would be the best person hopefully she would come on with that that's good to know so we will try to get Jess in tomorrow so that we can get case budget investments split out as early as Friday that's good to know do you think feel it's just confirmed essentially for budget adjustment that's all I need to hear great is there a machine terrific thanks for everything it was a productive summer also great thank you excellent thank you good to see you great let's just take 10 minutes welcome back to Senate Education we are on Wednesday, January 31st Senator Clarkson please join us we look forward to hearing your thoughts on your the genesis of S-82-82 oh I was hoping you could give me the floor about my thoughts period I don't know what's going on boom this is love you know we like to keep our witnesses lower than everyone else I mean we like to cut them down to size so it is a Allison Clarkson Senator Windsor County District it is a joy to be back in Senate Education room at the end of the hall where so many things can happen it is a pleasure to be back with you it is exactly a week as Beth and I were just saying from when this almost exact same bill was taken up in house education I'm unclear which committee may be taking it up whether a House or Senate is going to lead on this but I don't think that decision has been made so I feel comfortable in bringing it to you today I understand the chair has kindly offered to have the students who are actually behind this bill come and speak to you with their passion and interest in this subject and it's an issue that's near and dear to this committee I just know they're not speaking today I know I think I said invited them to come they aren't there's no one under 20 in this room well we have something in this room and that's where they would be but they are hi if you're watching okay so I'll do that one of the young people one of the young people who has proposed this is in fact our senate page from Vermont to the United States Congress and is Hudson Rainey is down in Washington DC right now representing Vermont in a place that means a lot of Vermont values now so this bill began with the Vermont student anti-racism network meeting and it's a robust group of young people around the state that have that and they have brought to us this bill and they're trying to improve their school environment they're trying to improve what is not working for them so they spend as young people they spend most of their week in school and their environment is not a happy place for many of them the purpose of this proposed work is designed to shine a light on some of the ugly behavior that none of us may see but that is problem and to shine a light on behaviors which are hurting them our students know best how the bullying and intimidation and racism are affecting them day to day and so this bill controls a year's pilot to examine the school policies and to make recommendations that after this year I think it's the end of 25 they would be making recommendations to their school districts and in fact to us about how to improve our school environments and make them safer happier places for many of our students I mean in the summer it was one after another I felt around this issue and we've begun work on that you know I'm not sure it's a work that's ever finished but this this bill creates equity teams I think it's five people that would teachers and students working together to examine the school environment in each one of those districts would be five pilots around the state they've created a commission I'm not fully clear on why you need a commission but they will explain why it creates a commission that would identify which schools or districts would be the pilots and they five pilots let's see the equity teams will focus on anti-racism diversity equity and inclusion equity related policies and curriculum and each one will receive a stipend each of these pilot equity teams would get a stipend of $10,000 each the report is due back September of 25 and the commission which oversees the teams would I guess coordinate the teams coordinate their work and would do the work of identifying which school districts got the teams and that and that is the stipend is to help it's a little the stipend supports their work and from what I can gather it would reimburse the teams for transportation for food for whatever costs, whatever expertise or resources they needed you can explore all that and find out why they've said that and so it's a five the appropriation is $50,000 appropriated to the office of racial equity which would oversee I understand this work and the teams would be three students and two teachers as I said and I am just a vehicle for helping put this in play and Hudson I represent Hudson who's one of their very articulate members as is I believe Abbey is coming, anyway you'll have a Abbey rather you have a bunch of students who are passionate about this and who are really hoping to have a pilot statewide that can examine this in five different school districts and come back with some recommendations for us so they, they're the ones that thought the $10,000 they thought the pilot this is this is their work and what we have enabled for them this is and this is their recommendation and this is the recommendation of the Vermont student anti-racism network which is they'll tell you I don't know how many Abbey got network is I know it's good size some of you may know more than I for Senator Clarkson thank you very much for bringing this to us this is so exciting I have been known to say that we need to fix bullying and racism and other issues in schools not by litigation necessarily but by on the ground work which I really appreciate so I hope we can make it make it go I'd love to see we can work with it but maybe more conversation around bullying here also just to throw this out there we had something in last school I worked at where when there was a disciplinary action it went to this sort of equity team to find out what the consequences were on the person who perpetrated the action it was hard because of FERPA and privacy rules but the students really wanted to know what happened and what the consequences were and how it impacted those that had been harmed so it was almost like a restorative justice kind of thing so I'm wondering how I'm also just wondering how restorative justice is going to play into this I've asked the kids I think it's a work in progress and I think they're wanting to explore all those things and I think a lot of kids suck up and absorb some of the ebulliness that they're dealt and they need a mechanism for working addressing it and I would ask them that I love the idea of teachers and students working together on solving problems in their school districts so I think you're absolutely right it's on the ground this is where the rubber meets the rubber with these kids in their environment in their school districts with their teachers it's a problem one school at a time so anyway I'm so grateful that you're willing to listen to them and you may not go for it with it but I'm hoping at least incorporate it in something that you're working on because I think it's important work and the $50,000 likely general fund at fund TBD I think that's your job it's technically not I think that's this committee's to figure out and I don't know the answer to that we did it's general fund it's the other thing it's not the transportation fund thank you okay thank you at least $10,000 about the $10,000 thank you thank you I don't need to thank you first of all I don't really need to say anything you walked through the bill did I? not gotta go back to the open meeting long goodbye and Terry already wants today there's been an executive session I am hoping to motion to order this to lie permanently but it's totally up to you thank you careful please best in james office of legislative council we are going to walk through s282 which the sponsor pretty much did already there's a couple things we can point out so the first thing I will say is this is a piece of session law so this is a pilot project so it's not going into green books but it still has the full force and effect of law so this bill creates an education equity team pilot project to support work in schools by providing stipends to up to five supervisor unions or school districts to fund the work of equity teams it creates the equity commission to oversee the pilot project that is composed of one student equity leader appointed by the governor when representative from the social equity caucus appointed by the chair of the caucus the chair of the state board of education or designee or office of racial equity or designee and one member of the house committee of education appointed by the speaker of the house the commissions has kind of two jobs here one is to identify up to five supervisor union or school districts to participate in the pilot project and to manage the stipends but they also provide support to the equity teams created the office of racial equity is the state entity designated to provide support to the commission and then the commission is required to report back next September to you all on the work of the equity teams including any recommendations for expansion of the pilot project and then there's language about how many meetings the commission needs to have et cetera page 3 line 10 subsection c is the language about the equity teams themselves so the commission is choosing which supervisor unions or school districts are going to participate and then up to five and then the then the supervisor union and the school districts themselves are creating the equity teams on the ground so the commission is picking the districts and then the districts are picking the people the equity teams are going to focus on anti-racism diversity equity and inclusion by reviewing equity related policies and curriculum the teams have to include an equity coordinator or other school administrator three students and two teachers and then again superintendent is appointing the team members so not district supervisor union level as the sponsor mentioned each team is entitled to a $10,000 stipend to support its work the bill as drafted contemplates that stipend would be used for transportation reimbursement food and supplies for meetings and other resources to support the staff or to support the work of the team and it does require students to be reimbursed at the same rate as staff and then the appropriation on page 4 is from the general fund for $50,000 to the office of regional equity for those stipends and the act would take effect on July 1, 2024 and then the same change yeah please just a question about the timing next September 2025 so does the report come out before the work of these groups or after the work of these groups and if it's after then when are they going to be doing their things I mean this contemplates that they're working this summer through the fall into the next school year so the 2024- 2025 school year okay thank you so the idea of this is something I support a lot but I'm wondering if you know we heard from Amanda just the other day we got the report from the advisory working group that was trying to read through it quickly but is this at all duplicative of this report that we received and the guidance, the recommendations that we that are in here yeah that's a good question I also wonder if it's at all duplicative of the hazing harassment and bullying legislation I don't know I was going to say it's something that we all if we have the recommendations that that help to address equity and bullying and harassment issues and racism in schools we gave them a pretty big task and they put together a lot of information so I think that it would be good to maybe do like a side-by-side comparison of this versus yes it's just maybe just this is a practical you think that this one's a part of it I mean it could be that's what I'm wondering doing if it is I'm just trying to be mindful in general of our binnals and how sometimes we duplicate things I love the idea also I worry, don't worry well I do worry what pilot we did for wrap around schools good information pilots I just want to make sure that whatever happens it actually goes out I see Mr. Robinson over there I don't know if other schools are picking that up I look back and I don't know if I'm thinking gosh that was a good idea or that was a bad idea yet because we put a lot of money into it some schools benefited from wrap around services they got to try it out but we'll find out quickly if they're cutting all those services after two years and what did we learn what was the takeaway this seems more but doable price-wise and I guess I'd also be curious to know and we can dig into this what some of the schools are doing there's definitely a problem out there there's no question about it good to have Allie Lensner testify she's in this report and from what we heard from Senator Clarkson it also sounds like she was involved in this with the Vermont students against racism so I'm also making some sense she's slated to come next week if the committee's interested in digging into this a little bit more the only other thing that I would say and I'll talk to Peter Conlon about it is I'm not sure we're completely balanced in terms of who's starting with Bill yet most of them are starting here the house is doing school construction but I'm not, I don't see their quite as heavy as ours so it might be something that we ask the house to start with what's that it's gonna make school construction a lot heavier no pun intended but what's gonna come out of that I frankly don't know if it's going to be nearly what we're gonna be doing for literacy and CTE questions, comments comments it's important it's very important I think we all in the context of education declining academic standing and programs and things we keep adding to our diminished teacher population in the funding I think that we need to go back to the basics and start focusing on education and you know if you've got a sports team and they're failing you go back to the fundamentals, the basic fundamentals of we need to do the same thing in reading, reading and arithmetic that's my own personal opinion I think we're getting our focus we need to move so I just have to say yeah no and I think this is part of I mean certainly being in a school we don't want any child in Vermont to feel unsafe, absolutely harassed zero tolerance is this the best way to do it I don't know it could be one way to try out we may also ask people to try this in five schools without the $10,000 and come back and report to us I notice they take it out of the general fund and they take it out of the education fund which would you know I think the 18.5% increase in education fund that they're talking about is what we've got some pushback from myself I'm reading everybody wants to do something the question is what might be the most effective way to do it I'm working for sure I think we'd rather spend $50,000 on adult education so people can get a trade I mean well I think we all agree we just want kids we saw a lot of headlines this summer for kids aren't feeling safe and good in schools this is also a product of that feeling how can we improve it we've taken some steps using resident bullying mascot bill act one it's the work is going to continue is this the right approach we'll find out maybe it's a different way to invest I don't know just a quick comment like you were mentioning going back to just focusing on the education itself I mean my response would be if kids are dealing regularly with hazing, harassment bullying and racism it's going to contribute to declining test scores I had to deal with it myself in middle school the last thing I cared about was math yeah it interrupts for sure I just wanted to echo what my colleague said from a teacher's perspective it's really hard to teach when students are suffering whether it's from hunger or abuse or bullying it's we know how the brain works and if the information doesn't get in there's that block we heard this morning in health and welfare it seems as though somewhere in our society things aren't happening that need to happen so if kids aren't learning to be kind at home the school has to step in and do the work of teaching kids to be kind and open the state is having to sort of help where some of the stuff isn't happening at home or where else it's supposed to help happen so I with all due respect to my adult ed folks who are wonderful if we get kids to learn appropriately when they're young they're going to get what they need early on so I think investing early is really important as well and our dropout rate as you know in Vermont is high would we see this year something like 25% 30% in some districts higher no I just wanted to comment I understand the need for the research I understand the need for the students and the faculty to get involved in the issue but I don't think it's necessary to put $15,000 against it I think this is a great student council project it's not it needs to be legislated yeah we'll dig into it a little bit we'll see if the house wants to start this process and what they think okay what points taken important topic appreciate Senator Clark's bringing it in S204 that's relating to reading assessment and intervention joining us I think Morgan you've got my testimony got it so S204 thank you once again Jeff Fanning executive director of Vermont NDA thank you for inviting me to speak with you today about S204 which I refer to as a literacy bill we share your intention to ensure that every Vermont student knows how to read and approves their reading competencies we have significant concerns with the bill but if you think it's necessary to believe the bill needs to be amended to make sure it doesn't conflict with state policies and federal laws to ensure it doesn't create redundancies in the school delivery system and to assure that it doesn't impinge upon teacher's ability to teach all students how to read you may see some similarities and consistencies with the AES just to Carlos's testimony that she gave to you a few weeks ago consistencies or consistencies consistencies I'll get to that which is an appreciation for her work education research is an ongoing process and the profession continues to be informed by teachers in the field neuroscientists in the lab tours as to what is the most effective teaching for all readers in the world this focus on reading is a robust debate in the profession and educators already continuously improve their practices based on solid research but we don't want to become behold to one particular instructional practice because it happens to be particularly popular or touted by the press for example in 2007 the United Kingdom went down the reading road that's contemplated by some here now but a recent academic examination results do not make a compelling case for adopting a phonics-only approach to teaching reading and I'll give you a citation of that University of Bristol report indeed the paper calls for scrapping the phonics approach adopted in 2007 for a more comprehensive alternative approach to teaching reading while Vermont educators are informed by research in the teaching of phonics it's effective when they take comprehensive and flexible approach to literacy instruction Jester Carlson's January 19 written testimony is compelling and worthy of a reread among other recommendations she also stressed the importance of reviewing the good work of the Act 28 advisory council on literacy their accomplishments and its recommendations there's a link to that report there just in case thank you the council is comprised of among others teachers who work in classrooms every day with students who present with a myriad of challenges and successes when it comes to reading teachers are the experts and while they certainly can advance their craft they teach our students with much success compared to other states who adopt that one size fits one size fits all approach for example you heard about Mississippi's success on the NAIC scores of its fourth graders however the scores there are a suspect for two reasons first Mississippi retains a great number of third grade students which provides and they provide significant resources to those early readers that's a good thing but it may have social emotional scars for students who are failed third grade second the NAIC scores have it as demonstrating Mississippi's reading success in fourth grade in other words Mississippi's success was fleeting looking at the states that scored well throughout Massachusetts and New Jersey it is worth noting that they don't mandate a one size only approach to reading what teachers say they need most to teach all readers is flexibility I heard that repeatedly and it makes sense each student brings different strengths to the classroom each student is different and different learners require different pathways to literacy teachers need flexibility and the resources to meet every child's unique needs and requiring a single approach for all students will necessarily fail some students the science of teaching students to read is based on a large body of research that contains five interrelated components all students need explicit instruction in the five essential components of reading phonological awareness phonics fluency comprehension while the bill mentions these five components S204 places too much emphasis on one aspect of the research of phonics while minimizing the importance of others however the interconnectedness and interdependence of all the essential components cannot be overstated that singular focus may harm certain students who may excel with different approaches to teaching them to read if you move forward the bill for money you recommend you adopt the amendments to the bill that Dr. Carlos outlined in her testimony additionally for Monty believes the bill should include specific mention in ongoing appropriation for the Act 28 literacy project manager at the house of the AOE you could have the partners trying to support the continuation of that person is that what you said correct I didn't say well it's better stated there I think but we think the position is a good one previous I have sat in this chair criticize the agency for shortcomings that I saw but I want to be clear given resources as was the case with the Act 28 literacy position the agency has served a vital role for literacy specialists special educators and regular education classroom teachers throughout Vermont please maintain your support for that position another general recommendation would be to increase resources for the AOE and school districts with which to collect literacy data locally obtained data guides curriculum development and instruction thus making data a needed evidentiary resource for schools the AOE and local education leaders need to be given resources to figure out a way to make local assessments valid and reliable for the state to use at section 1d which is proposed title 16 29 07d the bill proposed to add a new statewide end of year assessment through statewide end of year assessments shall be given to intensive general education reading intervention immediately following the identification of the reading deficiency despite what the testing companies claim statewide standardized tests are designed to assess a districts academic program and not to reach conclusions about individual students using a standardized statewide assessment to identify a reading deficiency in individual students lacks the efficacy of an assessment conducted by a training classroom teacher and in section 1e the bill proposes to ban a specific instructional strategy or move from the professional teacher a professional teacher's reading arsenal a tool that is exactly the type of directive teachers are saying they do not need or want the flexibility to meet every student's needs is critical to teachers being able to succeed with students moreover our position as to this is consistent with Ramanani is long held position that curriculum matters should not be subject to legislative action it's also remind you it's consistent with what VSBA said Kara has ever been talking about that too so that's my written testimony I'm going to have to answer any questions you might have I'm by no means and I'll say this outright I'm not a reading expert yeah that's right when did you email us your testimony I think around 315 making some last yeah no I apologize that questions comments for sure thank you very much for that a few questions slash comments so you seem to be in your testimony targeting reading instruction comprehensively writ large in schools I'm not sure and this bill isn't doing that this bill is a targeted approach for students who are showing deficiencies early in school so it's not retooling the way we teach reading necessarily across the board okay I don't if you say so that I understand you're saying what I did speak with several teachers about this and they were saying whether a kid is challenged or not I need to bring every arsenal in my toolbox to the plate and if you tie one of my hands behind my back whether it's a kid who's challenged or not challenged I'm then challenged and being effective with that student so whether the child is suffering a deficiency or not we want to bring everything we can to that and I think that's what the teachers are saying to me okay it seemed like you were talking about it sounded as though you were suggesting that this bill is targeting the way we teach reading across the board where to me that's not what this is this is a just a targeted approach for kids who are not maybe not excelling in second grade or first grade and need certain targeted approaches I think that's right the bill but it is very conservative yes it is about that yes and that's what I'm hearing folks are not don't think it's the best strategy for them to try to get all the students because the reading challenges may be varied right and they they clearly are judging by the outcomes that we're seeing my other is this a question is I really respect the opinions of all the various organizations that weigh in on the fact that the legislature shouldn't get involved in curriculum and so on and so forth and you have long standing thoughts and stances on these things at the same time at what point do you draw a line in the sand and say this is a crisis we need to do something different I understand you want to hold to what works for your groups I get that but I just want to I guess I want to tap into is there room for creativity is there room for change is there room for some you know behavior that might require some evolution right and I talk about that I mean earlier testimony I talked about it is a never evolving process yes teachers do evolve as do we all and I think that that's what they're saying is we are making great strides act 28 was a good thing that literacy position the a we was very helpful that's really just getting going I think so we said the modules that the a we has now have been out for four months so I think the change you seek is out there and it's coming but it's not yet fully grounded and baked but it's my only thank you my only question is you're speaking for the they collective how many folks did you speak to when you're talking for teachers how many because I've talked to teachers who have actually very different view and the folks who read the seven days article there were teachers in there who were saying I don't want to learn that teacher reading properly I want to do the right thing so I'm wondering how many can you give us a sense of how many I talked in the fall with people about this I don't have a sense exactly I didn't keep track but it's yes I read the seven days article I read other articles I read spent much of the weekend reviewing research on this and so while an article is as deep as it goes the research that I read was telling me we ought not to be going with one singular singular approach and we ought to be not emphasizing one approach to solving the reading challenges that students come with in fact the research that I read said you want to bring everything and whether a kid is challenged in one particular way or others it's better to have everything you possibly can have at the ready to use with that student so that is what I did here from teachers certainly the three on the council were helpful as were other people literacy council sorry so what I'm hearing is we're getting there we see a problem we're trying to address it the tools of again I've sat in this chair and been critical of the agency for what I saw as a shortcomings and on this one I think they're starting to really hit their sweet spot is because of the resource we're given to them to hire somebody who really has been helping the field that's good they used to do that a lot more and that's not what we hear on the agency of late so that's a pleasant change yes yeah please so just hypothetically if we were to do nothing how long would you give the current system to start kicking in when would we start seeing results from what we're doing now i.e. the modules for example I don't know I'm not sure anybody would be able to know it's one of these things we're talking about research is ongoing and we should be doing it that's why I'm talking about data collection we should be doing data collection so that we have a better understanding of where we are where the kids are I think that's a better approach because whether you did the bill or focus on one aspect or not others we won't know until some point down the future and I think that's what the United Kingdom did was studied it this professor did and said hey the stuff we tried in 2007 really hasn't shown any improvement so we sunk a lot of effort into this and it didn't pay off the prior one didn't either and that's why they changed in 2007 but it's still ever evolving and I think we want to don't want to pigeon it hold ourselves into one particular approach correct and we certainly don't want to use strategies that are harmful which we know there are certain reading strategies that are actually harmful to kids and I think they need to be removed from the repertoire anyway and I would say again Mississippi had a very high retention rate in third grade and while that may up their scores it may have caused other harm to those students in other ways down the road what do you mean by that sentence the way it's so that's I think there is if you're held back in third grade failed or whatever the term you want to use and your classmates are going up to fourth you probably still have recessed together you probably still have lunch together and other things of that sort and Jeff is now suddenly a third grader still and the scars of that being held back issue are real a few minutes ago talking about hazing harassing and bullying these are social stigmas that we don't typically help kids I'll say it that way so should we work with them to get them to a better place to read absolutely but you know Mississippi is akin to the Houston miracle that we heard about many years ago and they're testing where they just held back kids and that was the solution that's all they did but Mississippi to their credit did provide resources but only at those early grades and by eighth grade whatever gains they had were lost and Vermont is what top three or four in reading by eighth grade so there are concerns at the early grade no question about it but by the eighth grade we're doing really well if you just want to take one score on the nape which just takes a sample of kids it's not comprehensive but it is a comprehensive exam and I don't have it but I know of the nape it's very it's more than just reading it's a comprehensive reading comprehension exam much different than sort of can I read these ten words that's not at all what the nape is about I do appreciate what you said though about the seven days one piece I want us to be thoughtful you know I personally took issue with some of the things in it that were left out important piece for sure but I don't want us always to respond to news articles per se I mean it's good to get the conversation going but I appreciate it I appreciate your I appreciate your your testimony one of the comments that you made really resonated and that's that in the evaluation of readers we should be looking we should be concerned about the performance of the individual reader versus the performance of the district I get that so just curious if you can characterize the current reading performance testing whether we're really focusing on the student or focusing on the district because I really don't know I'm curious of your feedback well I don't know if I know the answer but that answer may vary depending on the school district and so some schools may be focused on the exam there's not a standardized test requirement for districts across the state that's what I'm asking we're focusing on the student we're focusing on the district we're still trying to set you up no no no I'm trying to think of no trouble behind every student succeeds act there are other acts that require certain measures to be taken and for the life of me I apologize I'm throwing a blank on this one so I can get back to you on that I just want to stand up for myself my comments about seven days were simply with regard to the teachers comments the teachers who spoke in the article about the harm that they saw within the current system so I was just talking about the testimony of the teachers not necessarily referring to the veracity of the reporting or the data in the article just FYI and the only other thing I wanted to say was that I do think it's important if you're going to start talking about harm done by holding kids back that the harm done that illiteracy does to kids that is quantified we have a ton of data on that I don't know if there's a lot of data on the harm or the stigma around being held back but if there is I'd love to see it because it'd be interesting to compare the two fair enough and I'm not disputing at all that kids who can't read do suffer harm without argument and I start there we share your goal of making sure all kids read that is the priority and so I don't know I don't know the answer do we have statistics on how many people how many students are actually kept back or great for 2022 I don't know if the agency collects that I don't know schools collected I know that what I hear is we don't like to hold kids back in Vermont it's not true Mississippi has a high rate they also have corporal punishment I don't think we're looking to do that either so I think the consensus in this state is for very serious reasons you might want to hold a child back but I think it's probably a last resort and to Senator Coolick's question or comment about the harm holding back a student as versus reading if we want to make sure that if you're going to advance a child even though they have challenges that they get the attention they need and the help they need to become a better reader so whether it's in third or fourth grade that's what we want to hear quickly yes I just do think it's important to I know we've talked about this before in here but that shift that happens after third grade where you're going from learning to reading it's important to that's why that line is so important some of the research and I didn't go down this rabbit hole because there's a lot of research out there on all this but one of the pieces I saw was kindergarten teachers and the quality of the kindergarten teacher is predictive of success in third grade so you can really drill down the data and get lost there's in the University of Bristol report there's a thousand news articles on reading and so I don't get the period so there's an enormous amount of energy and interest in making sure that the students read and nobody doubts that you don't go far Mr. Fisher you're up next I'm just going to make you five minutes maybe less I look at the Bristol report because I'm anxious to do that but it would be interesting to see what the teacher prep situation was in that case what kind of preparation the teacher said because it sounds like it wasn't very successful interesting University of Bristol professor who looked at the entire they have a much different education system my brother-in-law taught there for a bunch of years in a public school and they do very much focus on test taking and focus on that and so it's a different approach altogether and your point about teaching prep is equally important but what we might teach them today might be different from years from now and that probably is appropriate thank you we're going to switch literacy conversations with Mr. Fisher but I do need to take two minutes I need to stop down the hall back to senate education Wednesday, January 31st our last bit of business continues on the literacy front senators will recall the secretary Ushay was with the committee last week over zoom going through the agency's bill which now will likely be a committee bill or attached to senator Pulik's work and you had a number of different recommendations and recommendations that we are about to review and hear about and why don't you start going through them while Morgan goes and exit awesome, thank you for the record Ted Fisher from my agency of education I'm the agency's director of communications and legislative affairs and I'm sort of deputizing for interim secretary Boucher dealing with some family things going on so we appreciate your patience with us swapping out some witnesses here and also I just want to firstly say that we greatly appreciate the committee's interest in this topic and we've been really appreciating all the conversation and the multiple bills that you're considering and your commitment to making meaningful strides this year and improving literacy outcomes I appreciate you introducing me to this bill as I think you heard last week from the secretary and some of my colleagues some additional work and review has occurred at the agency over the last several months and as we review the final draft of our policy recommendations that were transmitted to the law we had some changes we wanted to make so my goal today is just to walk through those changes and I know Morgan will be back rapidly with the language but I thought I would just maybe do wavetops and then we can dive in as you have a chance to look at it in front of you so really today we're only bringing feedback on three sections no feedback on the findings three those are all good we did want to make what I will characterize as some adjustments to section two which is the mandatory completion of literacy modules some tweaks to allow the AOE and educators more flexibility to fully achieve implementation of the training and there's one pretty consequential change some of them are some of these are language changes some of these are more consequential changes and I'll try to signpost those where they are in this section there's one consequential change at one point during my editing process everything was underlined because if you look at your bill you have all new your usual underlined process that Beth has given you for an all new section of law and it was just underlined and bold and italics and so I just stopped because I realized all the sections were proposing to change are all new sections that you have under consideration in this bill so with the committee's forgiveness and you'll see that what I'm talking about in a second when you get the the the paper copies I have bolded and italicized strike throughs and additions but I've removed all the underlining just I think to aid readability but this is all still new sections of law but we've only marked you know visually indicated what we're proposing to change from what is currently in the bill just to extract so what was I mean you all contacted me this summer with the bill in what sort of transpired between then and now around just general changes and things like that? Yeah so some of it one of the other sections I'll get to in a second is a pretty big I think there we were hoping to do something consequential to role making later in section four and section three and we thought we were going to do it the right way and we made it essentially an error trying to be expeditious to get this in for the drafting deadline and it was in a way that wasn't going to work so that is a partially an error and partially we actually think what we've come up with now is just better this first section is just as we've got a chance to look at the final legislative language from our proposal through legislative council and we have a couple of tweaks so we have we're proposing in section A of section two to oh actually while you're still waiting for the copies one of the things that we really struggle to do this year and as a lesson learned from me in terms of our internal policy development is that we didn't do a good job of identifying effective dates and we the devil is really the details for us on effective dates or deadlines and so in a lot of cases Beth and I really have to appreciate her she just used her best best judgment because in some cases what we provided her didn't have an effective date so she did a good job of trying to map it but in most cases we're asking for more time and it's a little awkward for me to sit here and say we're asking for more time at the same time as we're saying we want to move quickly but with some of these instances where there are review processes and particularly when you get into questions of rulemaking we just there just needs to be a timeline and one of the constructs in terms of how we do rulemaking which is I think the most consequential change and at this point I'm kind of vamping for Morgan to get back but one of our most consequential changes is because it's literally because we think it will be more efficient to do it the way we're proposing to you today and quicker than if we went through a more protracted rulemaking process sorry sorry Andrew Robb are we talking about 204? we're talking about 281 so section 2 is a mandatory completion of literacy modules essentially what this requires is that it requires Vermont educators to complete some professional learning on literacy when we originally wrote this section the agency has contracted for and through other previous literacy work just contracted for and developed literacy modules so the thought initially in this was let's make sure everyone goes and does this so that all educators have a common baseline we are doing two things to this section one is we're suggesting that we kick out the requirement one year so instead of January 1 of 25 which will be about 6 months after bill passage we're going to require January 1 of 26 so we're talking an academic year and a half for all educators to come into compliance so I'm at the bottom of page 1 so you have a date change in the first line of sub A you have a language tweak currently to professionally licensed Vermont educators and then on the last line of that page you have I'm just going to read program of professional learning on evidence-based literacy instruction developed and offered and then we propose adding or approved by the Vermont agency education and this is an important change which is that what we don't want to do is make educators who might be very skilled and have taken a lot of professional learning on literacy to do more professional learning if they don't have to so if you as an educator have completed professional learning on literacy you have the opportunity to go to the AOE to our licensing folks and say have like does what I've already done meet the requirement and we can then go and so it will give us some flexibility it will also give the educators some flexibility to meet that requirement so that's an important change that we think is very important and you will see this construct of developed and offered or approved by the Vermont agency of education a couple of times in this section so if you flip the page and look at subsection you'll see the same and you'll know that new licensed educators employed in Vermont will have completed this and then we just say instead of within we suggest by the end of in sub C we have a small addition to the Vermont public and approved independent schools who employ professionally licensed Vermont educators this is a nod to independent schools many of whom do employ Vermont professionally licensed Vermont educators it's important to be clear that if you're an independent school who's employing a licensed Vermont educator you need to meet this requirement as well and then we have added a section or a line to the end of sub C to say the agency shall provide a format for record keeping including the use of the state licensing system is appropriate I have some educators and folks from the NEA in the room who may have direct experience I have some direct experience with the educator licensing system which is quite antiquated in the AOEs updating we may be able to add this into the system for future educator licensing system which will allow us to maybe automate some of that record keeping so that's just there to essentially flag that there educators shall provide evidence of required literacy professional learning upon completion of the educators license renewal and that is that is just a nod to the fact that we're not requiring a specific program that AOE has developed but there's the option for educators who may have done a different type of professional learning that is acceptable to the agency to provide that evidence so that's a conforming change but it is like a little bit of a significant language to be there and then we are proposing to add sub E by the September of this year AOE will develop and distribute a list of literacy professional learning requirements specific to each licensing endorsement so this is going to give some more information to educators about sort of what might help them meet this requirement so that's section 2 I'll just pause there for questions so you first see that every licensing endorsement will have a literacy component the goal is to have all educators and I don't think this is changing that but I think it does recognize that you have some very highly skilled educators who are highly skilled literacy by den of their endorsement or perhaps not but it is an acknowledgement of that but yes the goal is still that every Vermont educator has a baseline I guess and you think it's realistic for this work to be done by the September? I believe so that's what my understanding is from our licensing folks that this was one of their recommendations just seeing that issues I'm happy to double check if you'd like me to section 3 so this is where I'm going to talk very briefly and then I'm actually going to skip to section 4 for reasons that will become become apparent so as I mentioned earlier as we were going through the process we wanted to ensure the goal of sections 3 and sections 4 in our original work was to make sure that we are updating the educator prep program regulations to ensure that our educators for prep programs in Vermont are adequately teaching literacy and making sure that every educator who graduates from Vermont educator preparation program has a baseline grounding in evidence-based literacy instruction and comes into the system with that sort of understanding and that report came out of act 28 correct and that is how we identified and I think Senator Culek you asked the question when the new chancellor was here state colleges why the state colleges were using a method that I think a whole language method or something in teaching literacy so then what happens now I mean the chancellor is coming back into have this conversation with us she's really interested in literacy but what's the agency's role in this now in terms of enforcement and follow through awesome so here's where the oopsie is the original version of this bill had all of the educator licensing regulations being transferred for the standards board for professional education educators to the agency which was not the intent the intent originally the original thinking in any ways part was we'd like to take over regulation of just the what we call the rope of rules or the educator preparation rules because we don't use rope in statute so we wanted to take over just that section so small problem which is that there is one series of rules that the standards board or I'm going to use the term the SBTE ably stewards and they're very efficient at it they have a good process the a we supports them similar to the way we support the state board and however their educator preparation rules are not it's not a separate rule series it's not very contiguous it's kind of commingled within the broader set of rules so we did not want to change other educator licensing requirements or rule making authority and so the way this originally was larger shift than we wanted we discussed ways to essentially ask you to direct us to take over that educator prep rule making which would probably have required you to direct the standards board to update their rules at the same time as a we established a new rule series so that we could tease them apart rule making is a complex process even when it's done quickly and ably and so what we were thinking what we kind of realized as we were as we were preparing for testimony is we would be doing that for a year or two years instead of moving quickly on this so what we're bringing to you today this is where it would be helpful to go to the last page page three you will notice that section four we'd like to just strike so that was the section of the bill that transferred the rule making authority from the standards board to the agency we are going to move away from the idea of rule making just work with the standards board to bring our requirements through their rule making process so jumping back now to page two the edits to this section are basically as follows instead of having a we conduct a review of the results oriented program approval program to strengthen educator preparation programs which is what the teaching of the evidence based literacy practices which is what the original language says we have an honor before July one of 25 the agency of education shall submit recommendations to the standards board for professional educators on how to strengthen educator preparation programs teaching a profession of evidence based literacy practices the agency shall also simultaneously communicate its recommendations to Vermont's educator preparations programs that second sentence so the goal is we're going to review and we're going to make the recommendations to the standards board that last sentence is important but I'm going to come back to it if we jump to sub B you will see that instead of requiring a certification of compliance which was what sub B originally required we have an honor before July one of 26 the VSBP shall consider and as appropriate update educator preparation requirements in rule series 500 so that would mean that updates made based on the agency's recommendations would be ready for the fall of the school year of the fall of 26 we're striking sub C because we don't need to adopt rules if the rulemaking construct isn't changing and then we have as part of its review under subsection A of this section the agency shall recommend to the standards board whether or not additional mandatory examination is needed to assess candidates for educator licensure skills mathematics and English language arts fundamentals beyond the current requirements of rule series 500 so we had originally that we would develop an additional examination instead what we're going to be doing is reviewing the current praxis examinations required under the standards board's rules to determine whether they are sufficient to judge literacy and numeracy so that's hope we will see make our recommendation to the board the board has the authority to require an update so they will kind of keep us in the same plane right now all of the praxis examinations are in rule and not in statute so it would become awkward if you guys were requiring one not the other so we are proposing to use the current process basically if you'll permit me Mr. Chair I just want to come back to A to that last sentence we are asking that you require us to simultaneously communicate our recommendations to the programs in order that they have essentially an additional time while we're looking at ongoing to start doing the work it's our hope that a lot of them have really expressed a lot of interest in partnering with us on this it's our hope that if we communicate our recommendations to them they might start making some changes we're looking at their programs to see where recommendations might be helpful on a voluntary basis as the rule making process is not going so that's an important key thing we would like to see done so some surgery we will make sure that Beth has this language as well appreciate you you buckling up and riding with me on that wow I need to read this from a little more recent at a different time of day in 415 after 6-7 hours of testimony this is exactly what we asked for and it's a great summary and review and points that the secretary put forward last week very very helpful I appreciate it you can do all that we can do all that it seems like our director of educator licensing is already starting to do it based on how furiously he was typing earlier so he might be mad at me so I'm going to backtrack to earlier testimony so the caution was I think the caution might have actually came from the earlier bill's sponsor as well with a different topic was complications of teaching one method and I'm just cautious about falling into that same trap I don't know these modules I've never seen one, I've never taken one but being that there's one set of modules is there a danger in following that path with this particular topic this might not be your area well I will just I will answer the question colleagues much smarter than I have are attentive to this in terms of developing the modules we'll probably hear from others who will suggest that you adopt a certain standard or a certain program and that's not what AOE is doing that's not what AOE is asking and that's not what our literacy modules do we are also leaving this language gives more space for them we have the option to in the future update those modules or update our requirements and courses as we get more information or as the science updates or things like that you also have the opportunity if it meets AOE's standards for rigor and evidence based if you've taken another professional learning course that's fine I acknowledge that that stood out and that's good here we are teaching teachers and again it's not my area of expertise either I just want to confidence the fact that if we are mandating modules by God everybody puts their hand up that says yep this is the path it sounds like there's sensitivity about previous endeavors that didn't have the results the intended results I appreciate your sensitivity that because as we know amending statute can sometimes be a lengthy process so by not having it be in statute and have it be in reference it gives us the opportunity to be flexible as things develop and before you jump into the center we've asked the agency module to show us can you follow up with that we've asked a couple of times it would be great for us to throw it up on the screen and have a look at it with somebody taking us through how a teacher will learn it and Morgan will you make that happen next week that would be great the only other thing I wanted to say was I said that eight times today the only other thing I have to say this is really the last thing in response to this reference which was Mr. Fanon's testimony when I look back at the edits that were sent to me on this bill which bill? 204 around phonetic instruction actually that is still the focus and so this is coming from Jessica Carolis and her focus is still very heavy on phonics and phonetic awareness phonetic awareness is A, B is letter naming, letter sound correspondence real and non word reading these are all around phonics so I just want to say that this is for recommendation okay yeah and like you mentioned to me Senator Kulick is going to have some time with us tomorrow if it feels good for us to start to pull apart your bill at edit write it up just mark up a little bit last stage one Senator Weekes do you have a question? no this is just a gesture long day a lot of stuff I need to end the committee there thank you Morgan you can take us off thank you committee