Greetings, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to our fifth Enlightenment Salon. And this is a favorable coincidence. We have five participants in our fifth Enlightenment Salon. Yes. And in order, John Burrietta, Bobby Rich, James Cohagan, Bill Andrews, and Gennady Stolier of the Second, welcome to everybody. Now, three of us, James, Bill, and I were present at Rad Fest 2018 in San Diego, California. This event occurred from September 20th to the 23rd. Bill and I were both speakers at Rad Fest, and this was an event to essentially share information about the latest developments in science, activism, and the public discourse on longevity. So I'm curious as to your impressions of Rad Fest, Bill, given that you were one of the highlighted speakers and also you're one of the organizers of the event, what are your thoughts? Well, now you're biased, maybe. I do believe that Rad Fest is the absolute best conference. And I don't like how long a conference, because it's actually a festival. It's the best place for anybody to go and learn everything they can about staying young and healthy as long as possible. It's got the world's greatest experts.  We make every effort possible to keep the charlevans out, so almost every speaker. And I want to say we make mistakes sometimes. All of them come across as being authentic, but we have probably the best set of speakers on the planet for knowing every aspect of how to beat death. Excellent. And James? I was very impressed with a lot of the speakers. Some of the Rad City sponsors and such, not as much after investigating, but the speakers and the science was solid. And I really enjoyed that. Especially, I believe it was the third day where... Who was the lady who had her telomeres extended? Liz Parrish. Liz Parrish. I especially liked her presentation with that. And I learned a lot behind the scenes talking with these people. Like Descendants Research Foundation's how their projects are going. Yes. Indeed, the Descendants Research Foundation had a booth at the Rad City Expo for the first time. Has done a lot of other new biotechnology startups. For instance, PyCorp, Biotherapeutics, was there for the first year. And they are essentially a spinoff from Descendants Research Program. But they're doing research into macular degeneration. They've raised, I think, around $20 million already. And they're just one example. Aubrey DeGray gave a speech that described some of the emerging startups and the areas of research they're specializing in. And it's interesting how Aubrey runs a philanthropic organization. Essentially, Descendants Research Foundation is a research charity. They fund basic research and they fund intermediate research that often gets neglected in academia. But that private investors don't always want to put money into because there's not an immediate return. But now a lot of these research areas are emerging into that stage where now some entrepreneurs think there's a promising business opportunity there. So hopefully that will continue to expand. And during your presentation you discussed how you've been diligently working over the past year on developing essentially a safety protocol for the gene therapy trials with Mabella gene therapeutics and how you've managed to essentially forestall or prevent the key failure points that could arise for patients. It's been a lot of work because a lot of mice have been treated with gene therapies. A lot of humans have been treated with gene therapies. Everybody presents it as a very safe thing to do. So when you read the fight for it, you find out that a lot of these people and animals got sick from immune responses most notably the cytotoxin T cell response. Now that can kill a person and I'm sure a lot of mice died from the cytotoxin T cell response. But they don't report those. So I became really aware that we have to, and the clinical study that Mabella is doing, has to really figure out a way to overcome this potential immune response. And so I spent months researching everything I could, talking to the world's leaders in immune treatments, and then attended a conference on gene therapy and talked to the experts there. And during all this time I learned of a way that actually looks like it's working. And I'm not at liberty yet to describe that because I would be in breach of contract with Mabella. But I'm very excited about the fact that we have a protocol that we believe will completely eliminate any immune responses that anybody might get during their treatment. And that's really the only side effect that's ever been concerned to anybody because telomeres have been shown to be safe in all animal studies. The gene therapy vector has been shown to be safe, except for the immune responses. No animal or humans have ever developed an immune response against telomeres since it's already broken from the inside of us. And so I'm very optimistic. So as soon as I decided one day to declare that I am done figuring out how to do it and we can proceed, then it's all become terms of talking to governments in various countries about getting regulatory approval. Now, we can be like a lot of other people and just go to Mexico or somewhere and do a clinical study without any approval or something like that, but we won't do that. And I've been insistent on Mabella. They're not doing that. But I'm totally opposed to it. They're totally opposed to it. So we're actually going through every country, including the United States. We're actually working with the United States through this new program called ARMAT, or MAT, which is designed for special privileges, I guess, for getting approvals and getting approvals of new clinical studies using G-Dare. But the countries that are actually moving the fastest are Colombia, Malaysia, Singapore, and Tokyo. And so our first studies might be there. I just returned last week. So after Red Fest, I returned from Luka Romanga, Colombia, where I met with the Medical Review Board of Colombia to go over the clinical protocol that we had submitted for approval.  They didn't understand everything. I had to go down and explain. I spent eight hours in front of the board explaining everything, but they were very happy with everything. And unfortunately, because they only have medical review boards for three to three months, as a result of that delay, we won't be able to treat our first patient on December 10th, as I had announced in the Red Fest. That new date is now January 15th. But our first patient is a 76-year-old person who's been diagnosed with Alzheimer's 5 and a half years ago, announced in five years and six months ago, or seven months ago. So the sooner this person gets treated, the better. The clinical study will be focused primarily on treating Alzheimer's. And because clinical study is going to be so expensive, we're going to try to get every marker measured possible. And, you know, you mentioned at Rad City, there were some things that you didn't exactly like about Rad City, but I did meet a very interesting doctor at Rad City, Dr. Sandra Kaufman, who actually wrote a book. She wrote a book called The Kaufman Protocol. And after reading that book, I was so amazed at how well she's understood and got everything together that we've now asked her to be a co-investigator on the study. And she's also going to be in charge of designing all the biomarkers that we're going to measure to make sure that we don't leave any stone unturned. So I'm very excited about that. But the, I'm trying to think of anything new. Right now, we don't know exactly where. Ben and Watu Island is also a place that might occur. The clinical study might occur. But we don't know, it depends on which government comes first, but we're ready to go as soon as somebody approves it. We've got the hospitals all set up. We've got everything else set up. All we need is the governments to say go for it and we get our first person treated. And where that will actually be, we don't know, but we're right now scaling for January 15th. I hope you get at least one of those governments to approve the trial quickly. And I'm glad to hear that there has been progress. Now, you mentioned the ARMAT process in the United States. And because this is also an event for the U.S. Trans-EU in this party, we are interested in the regulatory policy developments that could perhaps streamline some of the approval processes for clinical trials. What have been your impressions of the ARMAT program? I'm actually, that's not my part. So I'm focused on science. I know that the other people in LaBella have been really focusing on getting the ARMAT process going through. I hope that BioViva is going through ARMAT. I also hope that Teal site, my fossil is going through ARMAT. I think that's going to be a benefit to everybody. And it's not a race. We all need to be curing our own agents. I'm just hoping somebody can do something really fast. Yes, that's the key. That some breakthroughs are made. It's not as important who makes them as long as they're made available for the benefit of human beings, hopefully in time for as many of us as possible. The unfortunate part is that gene therapy will never be cheap. So at first only the super wealthy would be able to afford it. But I'm looking at it as a proof of concept to justify doing further research to develop other means of reducing telomeres to length of telomeres. And I believe we can get that cost down with 10 cents a dose, at least at our cost to produce it within the next three or five years. That would be amazing too. I'm a bit confused about that because part of the reason gene therapy has been so widespread in recent years is because of CRISPR protocol. Part of the reason CRISPR is so amazing is because of how cheap it is at being, last I checked, $49 per. So how is that? Okay, so first of all, let me say CRISPR is not the first gene to edit anything. It's Sangamon that has had zinc fingers going on for 25 years and there's also talons. But they're all fairly inexpensive to treat cells in a petri dish. So you can buy kits to treat things but if you want to treat every cell in your body that's going to be a major obstacle and nobody has really figured out how to do that yet. They are experimenting with Sangamons that we've been doing for a long time experimenting with the same gene therapy that we are called admin associated parts. But it's still very expensive to produce enough of this gene therapy to be delivered to every cell in the body. And even when you're delivered to the lung tissue in the body it's still super expensive. Just producing the gene therapy in its own in the biorectric is super expensive. Now one of the individuals mentioned already in this conversation is Liz Paris. She was a presenter at Radfest and Bobby and John you had an opportunity to interview her recently. I know that you'll be publishing the video of the interview on your channel, Science Based Species but what can our viewers look forward to in that interview? Yeah, I thought it was a great interview. She's so awesome to talk to. She discussed some of those promising treatments that she has right now, that her company is doing and she got very passionate about extending lifespan but also not only reversing aging but helping children in curing their diseases. I definitely look forward to publishing it there's some great information in there and we talked a little bit about Radfest John and I couldn't make it to Radfest this year but we're certainly going to be there next year and she also talked about how great Radfest is because it's not just they have some of the best scientists and people working on extending lifespan but the audience members are very receptive They understand this technology very well so I think Radfest would be great for lay people to go to because even if you didn't have a chance to talk to one of the experts there's plenty of people to talk to that know what they're talking about. Absolutely. It was really nice to be able to talk to her about the kind of research that her company does and the things they do. We got a topic on a thing I just want to mention I think I might have mentioned it before but I can go to it in full detail because we were talking about epidural stimulators and that's the looks to be the next big thing for spinal cord injury. I was at my physical therapy the other day and the guy who I worked with just finished working in a workshop in the University of Louisville in Kentucky and he actually got a training on this new technology what it's going to be like and they say it's pretty much the next big thing for spinal cord injury. They started this research in 2011 and it's essentially a little pacemaker almost like a TENS unit that goes on the spine where the injury site is where the scar tissue is and it sends a little bit of milk and that allows the signal to transduce and have the person move his foot. They were only going to do it for pain killing because a lot of times you get chronic pain or apathy but they found people were actually able to restore voluntary movement. It's very simple right now we got moving away engaging trunk muscles standing, we aren't walking yet but it's a through more research and through more funding we're going to definitely have a means to get people walking again and that's very promising because it's very tangible, it's very real and I guess in this parish it's working with people with spinal cord injuries one of the persons on our board I guess is in a maybe a pair of what's really cool about this the really cool thing about this device is it's already been FDA approved for pain so that goes in your body it's a little risky to surgery but it's pretty low risk but what the greatest thing they're finding out now is that they don't even have to put it on the derma, they can put it on your back and send the signals through that way and that will actually start to do it and they do you with training and the most craziest thing I have to pay to read it again but I read it four times because it was just so crazy is that with four months of training with the shock on your back your brain creates new neural networks and now you no longer even need the shocker anymore now you can walk or move your legs right now but what's really cool is that it's kind of like a pacemaker for people with heart problems or like an insulin pump for people with diabetes but it's like an electrode it's a stimulator for your spine and it's restoring people's ability to walk and not just walk they're having better control of their blood pressure better control of their temperature valve, blood, sexual function all this great stuff is coming back and it's really something I've been very passionate about the thing that Liz said I'm going to ask her if I can patent is that it's only fair that we get you out of that chair yeah, we're hoping that in our youtube channel maybe like the 50th video or the 90th video John is walking again so he'll start getting his chair so that would be great I've been working with Liz Perishford six, seven years now I think she's one of the most resourceful people I've ever met she's really making things happen I think the future is going to be a lot better place because of the effort she's been I'm really looking forward to seeing what she and BioV are pulling yes, actually at the last Radfest I was privy to a conversation between Liz and Zoltan Istvan the founder and former chairman of the U.S. Transhumanist Party and at the time he was just there as a speaker providing some historical context for his presidential campaign but there was a reception afterward and Liz and Zoltan were speaking and they're both extremely genuine people about their view that aging disease involuntary death need to be defeated within our lifetimes and they were also expressing frustration as to the general culture caught onto this yet they pointed out that from their individual backgrounds they're not let's say the most distinguished of experts, Liz Parrish is a mother who became concerned about the way the medical system treats children with chronic conditions and so she got into the activism that she got into the science they attended a lot of sense conferences and she became one of the leading voices for life extension advocacy in the world and Zoltan started as a journalist he read a lot of philosophy books he traveled throughout the world he was in a lot of conflict zones and he nearly stepped on a landmine in Vietnam and when he had that near-death experience he essentially realized that he could have almost lost everything and that really impelled him to realign his priorities and devote much of his life from that point to date to promoting transhumanism and life extension and trying to change cultural perceptions so the way they spoke to one another and I just happened to be an onlooker really drove home the point that there are two people who consider themselves at least to be a fairly ordinary background but through the realization of the importance of these endeavors they became leading advocates and I think that's a lesson to everyone watching this that you too can become a leading advocate for this movement just educate yourself be aware of the latest developments and communicate to people in a way that they can relate to that these are the most important causes of our era so along the lines of longevity earlier in this discussion before we turned on the camera we were talking about long-lived organisms there are various long-lived plants and animals and they have some similarities to humans and Bill you had mentioned that for instance jellyfish and long-lived trees have some significant dissimilarities to humans and other animals jellyfish are actually really not one organism they're actually a mixture of organisms you can break off a piece of the jellyfish and that will form a new jellyfish it's humans aren't like that so that anybody trying to figure out a way to stand lifespan in humans by mimicking the jellyfish is not going to get anywhere because we are not jellyfish but the same is true for like trees like the briskel and pines and things like that they talk about how these trees are like 2,000 years old but when you go look at the tree you see one branch way up high that's alive the rest of the tree is dead as adorned I don't think we want to be considering ourselves alive if one of our fingers is alive and the rest of us is dead those kind of things that are allowing those jellyfish and trees to live longer are not something that's going to really benefit humans as far as I can tell something could surprise me but I do think that as species closer to humans are going to be providing some information and getting a little bit closer we now know that lobsters and clams humpback whales tortoises some birds and some fish they all have no detectable aging process people never start asking how long animals live until the time of Darwin about 150 years ago and now some are finding that the only way to tell how open the organism is is to find it when it's first born put it into a cage or an aquarium and watch it some of the animals 150 years later are still showing no signs of aging and the thing that I like about that is that they've been showing all these animals they have telomerase produced in all their cells their telomeres don't get shorter they have no detectable aging and they rarely get cancer in other diseases and so it's suggesting that plankton telomeres, the thing I'm trying to do with humans has got a lot of optimism for believing that it's kind of really big difference now I did say that you can't tell how old an animal is unless you are there when it's born because they don't have rings on a tree like trees do but clams actually do have something like that every year a clam gets a new stripe on its shell and now people have found clams that are over 500 years old and it's all because their telomeres don't get shorter because of the telomeres and so we aren't all alike in fact getting even closer to humans when we start looking at mice we find out that mice really aren't very similar to humans at all in terms of aging one of the most remarkable studies that I've ever seen has been produced several times 20, 25 years ago is that when you take mouse cells and human cells and grow them in a petri dish they both reach what's called the haplic limit or called senescence but in the mouse cells you can overcome that senescence with antioxidants when you try treating with telomeres the length of telomeres it has no effect the cells still go into senescence the haplic limit humans are the way around when you treat with antioxidants it has no effect they still level off and go into senescence but if you treat with telomeres the length of telomeres it obliterates the haplic limit the cells just never enter senescence this is a major difference between mice and humans which makes me wonder how much mouse data is really good for humans and so if we start doing animal studies more than what we did when I was at Geron Corporation we would probably start using a primate most primates have been shown that age-like humans in fact I should mention that the animals have been tested at the University of Texas southwestern the only animals that have been shown that age-like humans are dogs, cats, horses, sheep, pig and deer and also other non-human primates and engineered mice engineered mice like what Robert Pinnell used in his mouse cells all the other animals they don't age like humans they have some other aging process coming out so I'm looking like because of the fact that our research with the gene therapy is so expensive I'm looking I spent a lot of time looking for what's the smallest primate in the world and I found out that that small primate is called Medan Bertha's mouse lemur and it's only found in Madagascar so I've already been in contact with officials and other scientists in Madagascar and started human studies on this primate and that one is the size of the human thumb in fact, there's a very famous picture of what's it? Shaquille O'Neal sitting there with one of these primates in his hand and the primate's just barely the size of his thumb so it's but that would be that would allow us to do studies on aging in an animal model that what animal that ages like humans do that wouldn't cost the absorbent amounts I would be concerned because at least for mice as soon as the studies are stuff they're affiliated with unless there's a continuum they're put down afterwards I would be concerned about what would be the fate of these primates so am I and I'm glad you said that because one of the reasons we don't do animal studies is that I just cannot stand the fact that animals are just put down apples when I was doing research psychological research at University of California, San Diego we were given rabbits and pigeons and things like that we were told that at the end of the experiments all the animals had to be exterminated you can believe me I get a midnight rage and rescued my animals and took them home with me but the that's the first time I ever confessed to that so I hope you see San Diego doesn't throw me in jail for doing that but apparently it was the worst but in all the conversations I've been having with people and Madagascar and stuff I've been saying I would like to use lemurs or primates that are pets in people's homes okay and I would like to go to that home treat the pet and then watch it let the pet run around and just keep track of it things like that I do not want to see any harm there I don't believe in harm nobody should ever get harm in trying to develop a treatment that's not an issue to you and you're only interested in money so that's what I'm hoping that we can set up a study like that where the animals benefit tremendously from the treatment I agree with you completely Bill I think the law requiring experimental animals to be destroyed after the conclusion of the experiment needs to be repealed and indeed the transhumanist party in its platform is opposed to the euthanasia of healthy non-contagious non-dangerous animals especially if a trial is investigating lifespan and effects of particular treatments on aging one would think one would want to keep these animals alive for as long as possible because setting some artificial cutoff for the trial would defeat the purpose you're actually successful in extending lifespan but your trial is only up to X months you don't know how successful you've been unless you let those animals survive as long as they would have survived without your intervention I'm also a big believer in compassionate use so even if you have a placebo control as soon as you see that the experimental sample isn't working you treat the placebo system like half the people just get screwed there's a lot of clinical studies where that is the routine right now as soon as the drug starts to show the effect that the placebo group is treating to absolutely absolutely because it is very difficult to perform a precise controlled experiment with humans anyway but we have to keep the goals of the experiment alive and if the goals are not just to find out knowledge but to achieve an effect improvement in health or saving someone's life then yes, compassionate use should be the default practice so I also wanted to ask you James you perform studies in pre-fish populations could you discuss your research a bit most of it is preliminary watching data because believe it or not there's not a lot of data in pre-fish and the stuff there is is mostly centered in Europe and even that sparse and scatter there's an occasional thing more vibration patterns but very few population studies so there's actually not a lot known about them like there's distributions and things and where they're supposed and where they're not but it's a very unknown creature despite it being in both common use and culinary practice and scattered all over the globe so what I'm doing is just a plain population study for just a baseline I'm taking measurements of water quality average length average average weight and of course weighing each of them the whole population size and seeing if anyone wants to go from there or just continue my work on to my graduate studies how much is known about the life spans of pre-fish I don't know I've looked it up there is probably somewhere but I have not seen a single reference to their age online well if they're all related to lobsters and you're interested I would love to do a collaboration with you if you can provide us some tissues without burning the pre-fish provide us some tissues that we can culture cells from we can do things like measure its walmer's activity measure two in their lengths find out if they have to reach a eight foot limit just because lobsters don't reach a eight foot limit they have two walmer's produced and all their cells they have no two on the shore but pre-fish or anything like lobsters that would be very interesting fun I could bring you some lunch ones if you want yeah I don't know if we have somebody right now that could fire the tissue from without burning the animal but I don't want to pull off the leg I don't like that but if there's some way that you know somebody who knows how to stick a needle into one and remove tissue without burning the animal that would be suitable and we could do that put an exciting PhD dissertation that would be good I could ask the UC Davis lab up in Sierra Nevada Colors see if I can get some because they're already testing one of the ones although you wouldn't be able to use that one because A they've been dead for a while I think and B they might have pestilence in them so that wouldn't be a good baseline anymore but let's work on it yeah okay perfect this is an example of the kinds of possible collaborations and cross-disciplinary discourse that we encourage here at the Enlightenment Salons and it's interesting too in the year 2018 we have advanced far in terms of our scientific knowledge but still not far enough there are still many common areas of life in the world about which we know surprisingly little and Bill as you mentioned the serious study of lifespans of any non-human organisms really began in the 19th century and many of the longest lived organisms were born before that time so even not enough time has passed to truly ascertain the maximum lifespans of which those species are capable of I read recently there were studies of Greenland sharks showing that they could live to 400 or 500 years and they never did cancer they just correlated with dealers I think the sharks have been some of the fish that I was talking about that have been shown to have tolongers producing all of them the sharks were previously already very cancer resistant so a lot of products that right now aren't shark extracts that people take to try to find their cancer they work and it would be surprising that humans are still different from sharks at least the mechanism of action would help us design better ways to do it and if it's just one thing to do I'm already doing that yes and wouldn't it be nice to have an entire society where gaining that kind of knowledge is seen as a priority for the culture just like we learn in elementary school what are the planets of the solar system how do you do basic arithmetic where the presidents of the United States or famous historical figures in whatever country we happen to be brought up in wouldn't it be great in basic educational systems to have lessons on life spans and what are the life spans of various organisms what don't we know how can humans live longer I wish I had had that kind of education but I didn't need it because I was so focused on it anyway it really moved me ahead forward the problem with schools and for younger children they don't emphasize healthy lifestyles and that's your lifestyle begins when you're a child what I just mentioned talked about the number of fat cells the person has in their body changes with your lifestyle up until you're about 13 years old then it stops that's the rest of your life you've got the same number of fat cells and there are changes there's a reason why people might be wanting to focus more on lifestyle or the younger kids I would be a fan of that I would be a fan of that and you guys got to read it and it's interesting too one of my distinguishing projects in the field of life extension activism has been death is wrong the illustrated children's book on life extension and I try to inject a bit of that early childhood education by discussing long-lived organisms and I do mention personal compounds and pterotopsis dornii jellyfish which are dissimilar to humans but the point that I make is if these organisms are capable of having these life spans then there's not some immutable law of nature that says no organism can that humans cannot for whatever reason that is to say it's just a matter of figuring out our biology and how to control it and how to prevent the damage that occurs over the course of a lifetime but if more kids were exposed to those ideas and were interested in doing further research the entire field could advance dramatically I think if there were an updated edition of death is wrong published today we could include expanded content including for instance a mention of the Greenland Sharks as well as research advances that had been made over the past five years and I think if children were motivated to find out more about this we could see a cultural shift see better lifestyles and see better scientists all over the world and you know, Johnny you're a pioneer in this area with that book that you've written I don't know if anybody else has ever written a book like that I would encourage you to write more books on stuff that seems possible and get them more used at school I think it's very important and if I can help with that I will well thank you Bill I'm honored by your good words for that offer and definitely something to explore in the coming years it's interesting too because this field keeps rapidly evolving so new start-ups get formed new research breakthroughs get announced every year and even in animals that are dissimilar to humans like mice scientists are finding ways to reverse the symptoms of certain diseases and to lengthen life spans one of the things that could help I think is to have more purely life span oriented studies on any organisms including mice what I see in some of the recent studies is there is this cut off point so scientists will say well we prefer staging but then they don't monitor the mice the cut off point what if they continue to monitor them there are studies where they have monitored all the way until the mouse died Maria Blasco and Ron both did that even though they didn't have to sacrifice a few of the mice to look at the brain to cut the head both of the brain but they did let them go until they died and recorded the day that they did die now there's a thing that a lot of people seem to overlook when they talk about mouse studies and that's Richard Covell after Richard Covell published papers 40 years ago on oxidative stress and stuff and he found out that humans have 100 times the level of superoxide dysmetase as mice do it's 100 fold higher and so humans don't actually have the oxidative stress problems that mice do and that's why mice tend to succumb to oxidative stress in the country this much so another subject that I would like us to venture into in light of recent events is that of privacy and in particular data privacy which will become increasingly important there was a recent major Facebook breach where essentially there was a vulnerability in the view as feature where you could view your Facebook profile as a friend or a member of the public and see what they would see but apparently that feature had a loophole in it where an external party would use the view as feature to actually access somebody else's account access somebody's private account information so I was actually one of the people who Facebook had automatically logged out as a precaution and essentially it was a good idea at the time to reset one's password and make sure that if one's data had been accessed that the hackers couldn't log back into one's account then very recently Facebook published a feature on its help center saying what's data it suspects might have been accessed from one's own account and I saw that yesterday fortunately none of my private information was accessed according to Facebook so they logged me out as a precaution but I encourage others to take a look especially if they had been logged out in the past there was also an announcement recently by Google that in the Google Plus social network they had inadvertently allowed some of the developers of the applications that use Google Plus to access people's private profile information and generally that would be information like names, email addresses, locations not financial information as far as they're concerned and they're not aware of any actual misuse of that information but because Google Plus has struggled to acquire as wide of a user base as Facebook they essentially use that disclosure as an excuse to announce that Google Plus was shutting down and I don't think that's quite their genuine reason for shutting it down but suffice to say these data breaches have been happening quite frequently and they have been high profile and they have resulted in a lot of adverse public reaction to the point that a severe enough data breach can bring down a social network and that speaks to the importance of protecting and safeguarding individual privacy something that the transhumanist party strongly stands for because as we increasingly utilize connected devices connected computers phones, smart home devices sensors in the future that's going to be an even more significant part of our lives if we have devices embedded in our bodies medical devices for instance or devices that could enhance our brain function what Ray Kurzweil who might have interviewed at Radfest was talking about the neural cortex in the cloud there are going to need to be extremely good safeguards to make sure there's no unauthorized access to tools that essentially become vital, literally vital to the functioning of human life so this is an ongoing discussion of course but I would be interested in all of your thoughts about individual privacy and data ownership and how we can move from the status quo to a world in which people don't have to worry about somebody illegitimately acquiring their most private details I guess I'll start now it's very complicated depending on what's possible because there's been a lot of preliminary work such as being able to identify what people are thinking about not necessarily exactly what but a certain concept with some consistency there's no real data on whether or not it's actually possible for a full brain uplink yet or something like this so that one I will put my preconceptions aside the fact that I do not want my brain hooked up to the internet at least not directly at all to the side until more data affirms it but when it comes to data privacy like say personal rights things I'm an absolutist on the subject meaning that they should have to disclose what they're doing with your data where they're putting your data or you should be able to say hey I don't want you to use my data and whether that doesn't allow you to use the site that's totally fine but it should be completely what's the word I'm looking for transparent with this like it's why I deleted my profile with 23 in May because I did that like a few years back and got the raw data but after a point I'm like I'm hearing some of these breaches and things like that it's like no so did deletion and I'm still two years away from them because there's some archaic law that had to do with the human genome project that was passed in like the late 80's that said you have to keep your data for like four years they pointed to it and I'm like but um after that I'm going to be very very cautious going forward with my personal genetic data oh indeed, indeed now I'll point out when Google Plus announced this impending shutdown in about 10 months they also linked users to a site, a service they have called Google Takeout where it's possible to actually export to your computer in a zip file or multiple zip files all of the data that Google has on you across multiple services so I actually did that in preparation for the shutdown of Google Plus because I didn't want to lose my content I don't want to post anything particularly private or sensitive on Google Plus but I posted a lot of links to articles and videos a few pictures over the years and I don't want to lose that maybe now that I have all of that information I could recreate it on my own website and have an archive of my Google Plus activity just so that that is not lost simply because of a decision by the platform Bill I know you had some thoughts on individual privacy I just for years I've had this feeling that someday in the near future we are not going to have any privacy it's something I think the world is evolving in that direction that we're going to be knowing everything about everybody and I think we're going to be really surprised to find out how common certain traits are that people usually keep quiet and stuff like that things are going to be a whole world change it's going to be people accepting things that they didn't accept before because it turns out 90% of people were doing it anyway you know I don't know I can't even think of an example where I've felt my head is private it's I just think we're going to have to face the fact that in the future there is not going to be any privacy I agree with you at the present point though let me just say that before you start I don't put anything in Facebook it's not published even on my website so like my phone number my email address around my Facebook post profile but there are also big letters on my website so I'm not worried about anybody when I got when they shut my account down and I had it restarted I wasn't worried at all about anything that I still have in my Facebook page I was going to say in the beginning everyone kind of lived together really wasn't like privacy long time ago and there was privacy and now it seems like there's going to be no privacy again it's like it goes back to what it was I don't see the security getting any better at preventing these breaks I just see them happening more and more and more and yeah essentially you look at someone and they'll be like through your eye lens and they'll be like all this stuff about him the biggest concern I had was people being able to read each other people being able to read your thoughts that's a little I can't wait I don't know I don't know but I don't know if that should be some other people's autonomy you sound like people 20 years ago when the worldwide web was first being created people said they didn't want anything to do with it it would be too complicated it would be communicating too much mostly too difficult to do yeah I know it would be cool to think instead of having to speak but then like for a person in a year every thought is kind of like if you're able to think through your thoughts think what you want to say and put it out there so it's just kind of autonomy I'm not ready quite to give up self-driving cars can be like it's not going to be comfortable at the beginning but we're all going to get used to it self-driving cars can see like a beam those things can see like everything almost everywhere that's fine I heard Robert Fritas I watched an interview with him in Ray Kurzweil and he's discussing about privacy and hacks with really advanced nanotechnology and he said something really interesting which was we're going to need to get rid of privacy really that's the only way to prevent these sort of hacks or dystopian futures with nanotechnology you're going to need these things everywhere in trees inside cars inside human tissue to have mass surveillance to make sure that there's no sort of dystopian future with nanotechnology so I have a bit of a different perspective this is actually itself a dystopian future you definitely see what's wrong but that's what I heard and talked about and I think it's really important it didn't sound like something he necessarily wanted it sounded more like something that wasn't necessary for life to exist without nanotechnology this is a point of disagreement between me and Zoltan Istvan who founded the transhumanist party when he was chairman he made certain statements about the disappearance of privacy in the future but since I became chairman we adopted a platform playing essentially emphasizing our support of individual privacy and various conferences since we've crossed paths and we've had that conversation also in the discussion was José Cordero who took a bit of an intermediate position but Zoltan also articulated the view that he thinks privacy is becoming obsolete I articulated the view that we need to figure out stronger protections for privacy in the technological age not rejecting any of these technologies or ways to become interconnected but really emphasizing the absolute individual ownership of data and the fact that while we may disclose more about ourselves than we would have in the past we need to be the individuals who have that discretion who choose to disclose or not to disclose because different people are comfortable with disclosing different aspects of their lives so it's not going to be one size fits all but I think privacy in the future is going to be modular in the sense that we decide we own our data and in many cases we should get paid if somebody else uses our data for financial benefit the social network certainly have made a lot of money on individuals data but what if every time they make money say by selling advertisements we get a fraction of that revenue and that could also affect individuals incentives about what they're comfortable sharing because there would be a much more concrete benefit cost trade off that people could see so it would certainly be an interesting future and thank you everyone for sharing your thoughts today. I agree with everything you said I just don't believe it's going to happen I just believe that the future is going to be where all privacy is gone not that I like the idea but I think that's what's going to happen so you see Bill at least from the standpoint of my cultural upbringing I very much belong to that slimmer of time when the privacy of the individual was the default expectation and it was interesting because the right to privacy was first articulated in the late 19th century Louis Brandeis had a famous article in 1890 about the right to privacy the right to be left alone and this very much emerged out of the norms of the Victorian era which had really moved societies toward what we see as contemporary middle class life people living in single family homes, people having their home spaces distinguished from their work space, people having their realms of private thoughts which may be different from what they choose to share in public so I am very much culturally of that time and I would hate to see the advantages of that disappear I agree I agree totally these people as you mentioned in the 19th century I don't think they ever envisioned what we are talking about yeah, big data oh yes back then you could especially if you were fairly well off be say on your estate in your mansion yes you could have servants you would have people who would know but they wouldn't be the general public you controlled who would know exactly and then there was brave New World in 1984 and numerous governments seemed to be using those as instruction manuals yes and that is unfortunate but Huxley and Orwell were prescient in their own ways about anticipating the erosion of privacy but I think the dystopias they wrote about don't have to pass I do think it's up to us as individuals to affect that outcome through what we accept, what we don't accept how we use technology and the expectations we set society why for the use of technology because we certainly want the benefits of interconnectedness and if people want to share something they should be free to share it with as many others who are willing to access that information but at the same time in the future I hope we have a kind of hyper pluralism of individual lifestyles where those who want to keep certain things to themselves will also have the freedom to do that in any event thank you very much everyone for attending our 5th Enlightenment Salon and for an excellent discussion today thank you thank you thank you


I see there's lots of people at the door. If you have an open seat next to you, please make sure to, yeah, raise your hand. We got a seat up here. We got a seat over there. We can get more people in here until we create the most epic fire hazard ever. Ooh, ooh. I don't have fire extinguishers. Oh, okay, all right. All right, yeah. We'll go ahead and get started here. This is the core conversation for the media in Drupal 8, not just media module, but the whole media ecosystem in Drupal 8 because it encompasses way more than that. So welcome and glad you're here. And we're gonna go through quite a bit and then at the end, we'll do a little bit of live demos because I love chancing it, but I've tested it really well. We'll see how that goes. And have a system QA at the end because this should be a core conversation in the end too. So I'd like to hear your feedback on what you think this plan is doing and what direction we think we're headed in. I'd love to hear feedback and anything you have to ask. And we can definitely pause at points too, it's not a full presentation. But a little bit about us. My name is Yanis. I'm SlashRSMDrupal.org. I'm working for Examiner.com, which is a media company. We're running Media Portal. And before that, I was working in another media company, our national media company. And so I'm kind of stuck with media problems. I'm also maintaining plot-load integration module, discuss module. I was summer of code student. I was also a mentor now two times. And yeah, that's mostly, I started my first Drupal moment was when my friend called me and said, would you build me a website for a tennis tournament? And I said, yes, of course, why not? And I've never did it before. And when he agreed, I started to look for something that I could use for that. I found Drupal. And my name is Dave Reed. We have a height difference here between us. That's kind of fun. So I'm typically known as the module guy. That's kind of my reputation in the community. I think at one point the count is up to 120 plus modules or something like that. So I have a lot of experience doing this and not maintaining some modules. But about three years ago, I got involved with the media module and the whole ecosystem around it. Really got attached to it. Because it was like one of these problems that like there's a really hard problem and don't feel like we're doing very well at it. And I feel like it could really help and contribute to this. And I was really fortunate that my previous employer, Palantir.net was totally agreed and wanted to help out too. And we had a really big push and a big sprint in Chicago and really helped move the 2x version of the module forward and stuff. But we still have a ways to go. And if we're gonna share fun Drupal moments too, my first core patch was some patch to fix Drupal HTTP headers on Dreamhost which then Drees commented like the day afterwards which I look back in that to have Drees comment on the patch within 24 hours is kind of awesome. But that doesn't happen anymore. And of course it got won't fixed because Dreamhost is not great as a host. So anyway, why is media important? I mean, these are kind of fairly obvious things because people expect that we do it right. It's kind of one of those things that it's like, well, is it right or is it need some work? And if it's right, it's like, okay, cool, Drupal. And if it's not, it's in the latter category, it may not, Drupal may not be evaluated after that. And kind of kind of go along with that. The competition handles it better than us. WordPress does great things out of the box with media. I would call it simple, but it does it well. And other systems do it pretty well too. We have lots of these media companies and enterprise clients that have advanced use cases and want to be using Drupal and have to integrate their media management. So we need to be the solution for that. And funnily enough, people like posting pictures and catgifts and they like using media and YouTube files and putting them on their blogs. So it's kind of a use things that everyone wants to do. So, yeah, we have to get it right. And especially for the editors and stuff, we want to make sure they have a good experience too. It's not just the end users and the end result of seeing the media, it's the result of being able to edit and add that media too. We have to make sure we're doing a good job of that. And just all around handle it well, yep. And of course, I think it's funny because every TripleCon keynote that Dries usually does didn't happen this time. But if you could have one thing done in Drupal, if you could snap your fingers what it could be. And in Portland, of course, it would be media handling. And it seems to always be the answer. But we always seem to not be making progress. So we've got to make a good effort here. So let's talk a little bit about Drupal 8 and the current status of core only. There have been some improvements to that that have been pretty good. There's a file listing now in Drupal Core, the box. You can't really do much with it, but it just lists files. It's better than nothing. And you can see where it's in use, that's kind of handy too. You can actually, with our official WYSIWYG editor, CK Editor support, you can actually embed images using the Drupal way. They're saved as files locally as Drupal and not just remote files or something else. You can provide alternate text and align it and caption it really nicely with H205 goodness. And that's out of the box. But you can't figure out how to... I think you can select an image style, but that's about it. You can't do anything else to it. Make it a picture element or that kind of thing. And we did add, if you had an upload field, you can actually upload multiple files just using drag and drop. Little thing, but it's nice and little handy there. And to kind of recap some of the problems that we're facing with the actual modules and implementation from the media module standpoint, which I'm well versed in and will be the first person to say, don't use the module, it has some issues. I'll be honest, we don't have a stable release for the 2.x version. That's a big thing that we're encountering right now. And a big reason for that is the WYSIWYG handling. We're doing some weird, complex stuff with the WYSIWYG stuff and being able to override fields on a file with the WYSIWYG dialogue and it's causing all sorts of issues and encoding and all sorts of goodness. And so we're almost reaching a point where we have to figure out how to cut our losses with Drupal 7 and what to do, how to move forward to get that to a release. Some people would say it's overly complex out of the box. I like to say as a typical developer, it's flexible and powerful. But it's typically, people don't understand how to configure it. It's not intuitive in a Drupal fashion. We fight a lot of battles with core assumptions because core doesn't think you can reuse files ever. So we fight a lot of assumptions with that with media. And of course it's like normal issues too, like maintainership. We're all volunteers. We're not technically paid to work solely on this. I work around it on my side, on the side and off job or if something happens for a client with media module, I can go and work on it then. But for most of us, we're not paid to do this 100% of our time. And then we also had some interesting modules come up like Skalds. They did a wonderful job of what they wanted to do but it also means that we're competing for resources then. And we're competing with ideas and not really sharing and collaborating as best as we could. So let's see. So we're starting to like try and figure out to get together and we had this discussion that was a result of DrupalCon Prague, I think it was. And was posted to our Drupal group what they thought we should move forward with and a lot of us disagreed and it just ended up like a boxing match in a typical comment thread with no result. Which was, yeah, and just not a good result from that, so. But thankfully we did have an opportunity to sprint together in New York City early this year. It was really great that they got us all to come out and got us to sit in the same room which is really important when you have disagreements that we kind of all got together and said, okay, maybe it's okay to disagree on stuff and let's try and maybe figure out what's the common functionality that we have? What are the common components we can work on together? What's at least build a base of this ecosystem that we can both build on top of but collaborate together with? So yeah, that was really nice and this is kind of showing this plan that we developed there. Are you taking over? It's so hard. Okay, all right, I'll keep going. All right, I'll just keep going. So it ended up that this new, so file entity is like the typical, the most popular way that we stored and interact with files in Drupal 7. It basically extends Drupal Core's native file entity and makes a UI around it, lets you interact with them. Independent of content and other entities. And there's the proposal from Prague to make a separate thing called a media entity that could point to a file or could point to a YouTube video that wasn't necessarily a file or a tweet or that kind of thing. Whereas the file onto the approach is tries to treat everything as a file. I like to think of it as you uploaded a video to YouTube so it exists as a file somewhere. And so we disagree in this kind of storage area and we're probably gonna keep working on that separately. So there's a media entity module now that's being worked on for Drupal 8 and there's a file entity module that we're working on porting but at the very basic stages right now. But given that, we can start to break other things up and stuff that we can share. And if we can make this ecosystem work for both of our different storage components, file entity and media entity, it means that we're doing a good job and that's actually a good measure of success for us. You could use this base components to do other stuff whether you don't wanna use media entity or file entity. They could be used independently. And so we're gonna show you the approach that we have and we also came up with a roadmap here for what we're gonna do. Yeah, so we've split our roadmap in few steps. First step is basic APIs that we need, basic API for embedding stuff into WYSIWYG, basic API for module that we call entity browser that is basically responsible for finding and selecting media items, storage components because it's the lowest layer of the system. And yeah, so we have some things that are already done. Most of work that we've invested was in WYSIWYG integration. That's mostly because of the fact that the WYSIWYG integration module that we currently call entity embed was a summer of code project this year. We got a great student called Chandan, his CS underscore shadow on triple.org and IRC. He was very enthusiastic, very productive and as he was later, we achieved a lot in that part. The next step is to start using this API to provide user experience UIs. And here again, because of the summer of code, we already have integration with CK editor. This works basically, it's almost feature complete. We are still struggling on some other parts where we're mostly dependent on volunteer work. And when we have this basic systems in place with APIs and UIs on top, we will focus on display configuration integration with third-party uploaders, like things that are important but are not operating in the basis of the system. And at the end, we have third-party integrations and things like cropping derivatives. It's most of these things I must have, but we need everything below in order to work on this. So let's see which components we're working on. A bit more in depth. First module is entity browser. As I already mentioned, it is a tool for listing, finding, creating and then selecting entities. If you're familiar with, let's say, media widgets in Drupal 7, where you have this pop-up that opens and then you have tabs where you can select media items or search YouTube or upload things, it's similar, it's based on the same idea. The main difference is that it's designed to be a general tool for selecting entities. It should allow you to use it even with entities that are not media related. Let's say you have an entity reference field and you want to add few related articles, you should be able to use entity browser to do that. Entity browser would then open, give you a view with exposed filters where you could search and then select few articles and those would be then referenced from this main article. There is nothing preventing us to implement things like search API in this thing, so the way we're trying to design it, it's very powerful and very pluggable. I'd like to speak on that too. The concept of the media browser has different tabs, like one might be a library, one might be an upload, a new file, one might be a paste in the URL to a remote file or YouTube video. The idea is that those individual tabs should also be field widgets that you can then use on individual fields. If you wanted to just use the library part on a field, you could just use the library part and that way any kind of widget that you have available for your file and image fields could then be something you can put in a media browser as a tab, so we have a widget already for uploading a new file, why not just use that for our upload tab? So that's an interesting, kind of pluggable, reusable concept for that. Few more potential use cases for that. Let's say we want to upload few images, select few other images that are already in the system and then create a gallery out of this entire set. Entity browsers should be able to allow you to do that, basically in one step. Then it should allow you to search YouTube for videos and embed it into Wizz a week, let's say. It should also allow you to have a standalone page where you select 50 articles and when you submit, those are sent to some third-party site via an API or something like that, you name it. Our intent is and our hope is that we'll do it in a way that will allow you to really use it for any situation where you have to deal with searching and selecting entities for any context. We are currently working on some basic APIs. We don't have any UIs or any demo, we just have some mocks. It's similar to what we have in D7, except we wanted to do it much more pluggable. Let's say you should be able to change these tabs on top with something else. If you don't like tabs, maybe you want to use a dropdown to switch between your so-called widgets. Widgets are these tabs where then you can, widget can be a view or an upload form or name it. Also to support use cases like the one that I mentioned before where you first upload a few images and then select three other images in the same step, we should support something like this where you can go to one widget and let's say upload things. And then these items appear below and the list of currently selected entities. And then you can go to next widget and select few other images, let's say. And they also appear down there. And when you're done with this, you can use this currently selected list to be propagated down to entity reference or anything similar to that. We have an issue and our issue queue where we're discussing architecture. This is the basic idea. We have kind of like four areas where we have pluggable interfaces. One area is widget. Widget is the actual form where you either select or upload or create or do whatever to get those entities. Then we have a widget selector plugin which decides how you will choose which widget to use. And selection display is this part below that I showed how the list of currently selected entities is displayed. And of course, browser can be used like in an overlay which is how you get this in D7 but we also want to support other forms. We don't want to assume how entity browser looks. We just want to give you the tool and then you decide how it looks. Then we have media entity as Dave mentioned is one of the two storage components. It takes the approach of not everything is a file. Media can be a local file, but it's not necessarily. Creates a new entity type which then we use to store the information about media. And it uses the standard field API fields to do the actual storage. Let's say if we have a local file, we have a file field on it. If we have a YouTube video, you can have a link field which then stores the link to a YouTube video or a text area field where you paste the embed code, things like that. And as a result of that, not everything is stored in the file management table, just things that are uploaded in the actual file field bar. And then it comes with so media type plugins that those plugins basically provide business logic validation metadata for each media type. Media type being either local image, YouTube video, Vimeo video, et cetera. Validation part exposes a validation callback that then we use in a form to validate data that was entered, but it's not tied only to forms. You can use it in your custom code if you want to do something with it. Plugin also gives you a list of so-called fields, but those are not the entity fields, are fields that this plugin knows how to provide to you either by stripping some data out of embed code or URL or connecting to an API and fetching tags, description, whatever. Then you can also configure mapping between the fields that are provided by media type to the actual entity fields. And when you save the media entity, it will fetch these fields and save it in the actual entity, but you don't need to do that. Maybe you can just access these fields via an API to use it just at render time if you don't actually have to store it. Here's how it works. I created a so-called media bundle with a new URL field and video ID field, and I attached a YouTube plugin to it. If you want to play with this, you can find both media entity and YouTube plugin on our GitHub group. And then I tried to enter Drupal.org as a link to YouTube video, and validation callback recognizes this as a wrong URL and complains. And when I entered correct YouTube URL, it saves because it detects that everything is all right. And since I defined mapping between the YouTube video ID and this text field that I have on my entity, it already auto-populated it. So now I have both ID and URL here, but I could have description that would be fetched from YouTube or title or text or everything that they provide for us. So kind of looking back with the entity browser, I think it's just kind of indicative of our goals that like how many different kind of browsing like view interfaces are there for Drupal 7 that kind of do the same thing and we're trying to replace them all. Yeah, we're keeping our goals low. And along with keeping our goals low is entity embed because there's how many modules for embedding stuff in body fields in Drupal 7? There's a lot and we wanted to do it right. So again, to reiterate, we had a great, great summer code student, Shanban who worked on this all summer and did the majority of the work and was super terrific. So we have the entity embed module for embedding any type of entity in any kind of filtered WYSIWYG text field. You can configure any number of buttons. So like you can pick a button for embedding node. You can pick a button for embedding files. You can have a button for embedding users. All different buttons, but one per entity type. But it works for all entity types out of the box which is really nice. And another interesting thing that we'll see in the live demo is we're kind of continuing on this theme of reusing and reusability that the way that we display the embedded item by default, you get to pick from an entity reference field formatter or if you've picked a file or an image, you can pick a file or image field formatter as a way to display your embedded item. And you can also write a custom version to display it if you want to, but it's like encouraging people to write field formatters as a way to display things. So we wanted to reuse those. And the tiny Jeff Eaton and myself would be really, really happy that the way that this stores in the actual body field is one HTML tag that stores all the attributes in like data attributes in a nice HTML5 way. So yay, it's terrific, we got to see it. And an awesome thing is that it supports UIDs on the box. So if you pick node one to be embedded in your body field, underneath the hood it'll automatically put in the UUID of that node since all entities in Triple 8 have UUIDs and it'll put that in there and it'll always use that to load that node that's embedded in your body field. So if you do a deployment, it won't break, which is really nice. And then like after we did all this work with the entity embed module, we kind of realized that there's a lot of similarities, like the concept of embedding things in the WYSIWYG, like configuring the buttons and a selection kind of UI and then picking how to display it kind of shares this common functionality.  You type in the link to the YouTube file and then you have a display, what size do you want to output it as? So we're kind of making this whole embed framework or API now based on entity embed and that'll work for entities, URLs, short codes which is like a WordPress kind of macro kind of thing that we want to support and also like the fields from the same entity that you are using. So if you're on node one, I want to say put my tag field in the body here and display it like this. So we want to make sure that's possible. Our second of two storage mechanisms, file entity. Has anyone used file entity before in 777? Yeah, that's a good amount. So we're planning to keep it pretty similar but a little bit more split up. So the good portion of file entity that's basically like, hey, let's expose the UI for files and let you add and edit and delete them without having to interact with your node as independent actual good entities. We're gonna be porting that as interpolate. But the stuff that like makes you add fields to files or at different file types like audio files or video files and those types can have different fields, we might be splitting that off into a separate thing. So like, if people just want a UI for interacting with their files, they could have that. Without having to overcomplexify it with adding, oh, I've got fields on my files now, I don't know what to do with those, what should I be doing with those? And I've got all of a sudden these six different file types and I don't know what I'm really doing with those. So we wanna make that a little bit optional. Another fun part of file entity that we're spinning off, has anyone seen like the manage file display tab? Yeah, it's a pretty painful process. You have to like configure the different types of ways the file could be displayed and then configure the order in which to try them. And if the first one works, great, it'll return that. And if not, don't try the second one and I'm not gonna try the third one. So yeah, and it's just super weird. But it has a valid use case, which is like, say you have a file field in Drupal Core that you have uploaded both audio and video files to cause you maybe didn't separate them into different fields, whatever. But you wanna display the video as video, each null file video, but the audio as audio tags. You'd have to write a custom formatter to do that logic for you.  And if not, output nothing. And if they're saying for an image or an audio, you could use this new fallback formatter module to do this. Just write in your field, manage fields as available independently. So we kind of abstracted that out as well. So we're excited about kind of not having that as custom. So another fun thing that we encountered, actually encountered on a client project, but I wanted to kind of bring into our ecosystem. If you have a file field in Drupal Core, it means you can't use any of your image formatters on that field. Like if you wanted to display it as an image style, you can't. Cause it's a file field, not an image field. But if you install this module, now you can. So it kind of works with that fallback formatter behavior too, so yeah. And then another quick module too is the field formatter. So like untangle all the instances of me saying field formatters and all that together. So if you have an entity reference field, and this will allow you to output a specific field from that referenced entity, just one field. So it kind of solves our entity embed. I want to display the field from node two in my body, but not the whole node two. So it's just that. And then kind of like the big question is what happens to the media module or the scald module in Drupal 8. I can't speak specifically to scald, but at least from media, what we're looking to do with all these components then, we'll have configuration entities, we'll have a pre-configured media browser with our library and upload tabs and kind of have just the glue code that's necessary to bring it all together. It'll have more dependencies, but I think that'll be okay. That's kind of what we're encouraging in Drupal 8 now. So yeah, any questions so far? Yes, go ahead. Mike's right there, be careful of the people on the floor. Yeah, I was wondering about the explanation you gave about the different, I think it was in the media entity part of the presentation, so I'm not sure how the file entity storage solution would handle that too, but you had different bundles for the media entity type, who had created a YouTube bundle. What would make it similar or not similar to a daily motion or an other video provider entity? Would that be a different bundle? If so, can you say that there are videos? What do they have in common? Yeah, so it would probably be the different bundle unless you write media type plug-in that handles both. And then this distinction, to bring all these video types together as videos, we would use taxonomy, because when we were thinking about it, it makes more sense. It's easier. It's like what the current D7 solutions like kind of vary with like. So current D7 mostly? And provider for the same media type or like our different providers, just separate media types. So in D7 there is no media entity, so this is kind of a new approach that we're trying, but like mostly when most of solutions in D7, when they display media in a listing, let's say, the most top level filter that they use is based on bundle. And with media entity, now we were thinking about using it as a taxonomy just because of this problem, because we were thinking how to make, let's say Daily Motion and YouTube, the same bundle called video. And then we realized that we would probably end up with a set of fields that are used for one type and not used for the other. And we would have to either hide those fields when you know that you have YouTube video or just have a huge messy form. And then we were thinking how to overcome that and like Sasha said when I was discussing this with him that we're probably trying to implement bundles on top of bundles, which is probably not the best idea. So like planning is to use taxonomy for along with bundles to bring this together. Yes, in the back of the room. Microphone. I can repeat it if you want to stay back there. Yeah, that's good. So the question is with field embedding, once I've saved and I'm displaying the node, can I then inline edit that field? Yeah, yeah, you can definitely configure how it's displayed, yeah. You can, yeah, so the question is, can you change it after you've embedded it? Yes, you can. I will show you in the demo. So I'll quickly hit through some challenges that our team is currently facing in Drupal 8 to kind of bring some attention. If you're gonna be at CodeSprints maybe Friday, these are kind of some things that we are looking to figure out as contrib module initiative that we need solved. The big first one is, how do we manage external dependencies right now? Cause core is taking the shortcut and made its composer.json file and put it right in the root and downloaded all the dependencies in Drupal. Can contrib modules do the same thing? I know there's the composer manager module, but kind of what's the official recommendation for how contrib manages their own external dependencies? We don't really know. There's some really fun, challenging issues that have to deal with formatters and widgets. Always assume that there's like a parent entity and like I can't work with them as independent objects cause I would just like to say, hey, formatter class, I've got you this configuration and this item, please display it. And it ends up being way more complex than that. So if you have any knowledge, I know there's some certain people in this room that might, we love your help with this or better solutions, but we have something that works right now. We wanna make sure that files everywhere in Drupal use the proper access control. There's just the private file access system in Drupal 7 and then there's the file entity access API also in Drupal 7 if you have the module and they don't always talk to each other or work and like we can't get core to respect the file access API. It only listens to the private file access. So we wanna make sure that in Drupal 8 at least it's consistently using one access API that could be overridden if needed. So we're working on that, we're making progress. There's some fun challenges of type data. There's an issue out there right now that if you have a space in your file name it fails validation for the file entity. So we're trying to work on that one too. I would like to report a success that we had. If you know in Drupal 7, if you added a image to your node on a field, saved it and then went back and removed it and maybe changed it to something else. If that file was not used anywhere else, Drupal would automatically delete it for you. Which kind of screws up with the concept of reusable files and goes back to that fighting that core assumption. So now it's actually configurable in Drupal 8 that window of when that file expires if it's unused. So you could make it two months or something like that which is a little bit more safer or you could disable it but that could also run into some disk issues if you don't have a lot of disk space. But we also have an interesting problem now that the file temporary status is referred to two things. It's like you've uploaded a file but haven't saved it to a node yet. And it also means the file was used at one point but now it's orphaned. It's considered temporary again. And it's kind of a confusing thing where we're having a discussion about it on Monday. So maybe we'll talk more about that on Friday.  Sure, yeah. Yeah, we'll switch over the demo because it's the most interesting part. So let's see. So I have my Drupal 8 site. From a get pull recently this morning that I have confirmed that I should work now but I have not dared to try and pull it again. And I've enabled the entity embed module. So we're gonna show you right now because I'm just really proud of this work that the team did. So once I've enabled the module I go to my input text format configuration, my text and editors. And I'm in the full HTML. And I can see down below I have a filter for display embedded entities. I need to enable that. And then I have already drag and dropped some entity embed buttons. They're like the nice E there for entity. I have dragged them into the configuration. So that's all I really need to do to embed entities in my WYSIWYG. I can show you this interface quick. This is where you actually add another embed button. So I have made two. One actually ships with the module by default for embedding nodes but I made one for files too. So I could go through and I could actually add a new embed button. I could pick which entity type it should correspond to. I can actually change the button image as well from right here. Otherwise it uses the default E. And these are config entities, yep. Yeah. And then this is the part that I was looking at. I was like, oh, this should be just a generic CK editor button, like config entity, for our embed API. So this isn't really specific to an entity embed. But all right, here we'll get to the fun part. So I have, let's see, two items of content here. I've got a first node with a picture of my lovely cat Rodney. And a second node with some placeholders here. So let's go ahead and edit this. And I'm gonna go ahead and click here and I'm gonna hit my first entity embed which is lovely size content. So I'm going to embed some content. This part here of selection is kind of very basic because once entity browser is finished, we're going to integrate this into the first part here. But for now we needed some kind of fallback behavior that just allows things to work. So right now I just typed the ID or UID of the node I want to embed. We may change this up to like autocomplete untitled. That might be easier, but I'll pick item one. And I see that I've got the title of what I want to embed. And I have a number of options here. And this is kind of what I was talking about with field formatters. So these author, label entity ID and rendered entity, those are all entity reference field formatters. And I have some other field formatters that are for entity reference fields or our fallback module too is available. But by default, we want a rendered entity when we want to render it with a view mode and I can pick a view mode teaser and embed. Ta-da. And I can even right-click it and I can edit. Maybe I want to change it to my default view mode again. Ta-da. Yeah, that's cool. Question, yes. Yes, all the plugin, these options for display, these are actually plugins. So they're kind of a wrapper around the field formatters and there's an access method that says, oh, is this item an entity that can be rendered? If so, return true. Or like, you could have your own custom logic in this access method that says, oh, does the node have this field out? Okay, yes, it can be displayed with this plugin. Yeah, that's the confusing part. I mean, we're at least, we're literally reusing the same formatter labels that you use when you pick how to render a field. So it's, we kind of have the same problem as core. Like, how do you explain what field formatter to use on an empty reference field? So yeah, I kind of recognize that it's kind of confusing, but we're also just, we're at least have the same problem as core. So if core fixes this, we can fix it here too. So something else show, let's see, what show label and my options that are available as my formatter are right there that I want to use. I can change it and it's there and it works. I'll show the source for this because I think this is the coolest part. So this is using a custom HTML tag called Drupal-Entity. And we've stored like what button I use to embed it with. I've got my data attribute for what display plugin I'm using. So it's the entity reference field and the entity reference label field formatter. I've got my settings that I had that are JSON encoded into that data attribute. So I said, I want display this as a link, so that's my JSON there. I've got my entity ID of one, entity label, I'm not sure why we have that, but entity type and I've got my unique ID as well directly there. And then, so then what this happens is when this is rendered through the filter, this is converted to just a normal div and it displays the entity as it needs to. Yes, this is implemented as a CK Editor widget. Yeah, we've had a lot of assistance from Wim Lears who's been doing a lot of good work in D8 with the CK Editor stuff. So he's definitely been our consultant for how to do stuff. Another thing I'll just quickly show, one of the common problems we get in the media module is I want to embed a link to my uploaded PDF file. It seems like such a simple use case and something we could easily do, but it's a hard problem for us to do in media well. But I'd like to report that's no longer the case. I'm going to embed a file. It's an image actually, but it's okay for demonstration purposes. And again, I see which entity I've selected that's not exactly too helpful and I have a list of entity reference field formatters, file field formatters, and image field formatters to pick from. It's kind of a lot of options and fall back appears here twice, I don't understand. But if I just picked a generic file, which is a file field formatter, I can type in the description and it outputs as a link to that file using that field formatter with a link to that file. And I could edit it again and since this is an image, we'll do an image formatter. And so I can pick the image style. I can even provide my alternate and title text right here, which is also serialized into the attribute and embed and if I view my source for this, I can see it just encoded as a regular alt attribute and a regular title attribute in this element directly and that just gets passed through when it's rendered as an image. So it just works, which is really, really nice. So yeah, yes. I get it asked every time, every time. I can rely on that question. Can it be backported to Drupal 7? So I would like to say it could be. None of us have really investigated too much into it. I think I have had some people report back. I mean the filter itself, totally easy to backport. That's fairly easy to do. The harder part is the interaction with the CQ Editor and the whole JavaScript interaction because there's not really a library to do all these forms and stuff in Drupal 7 in a good way with CQ Editor. So I'm open to being backported. I would love if anyone has the challenge and wants to take that on. We have an open issue in the queue for this. But I don't think it's like something that we're gonna be spending time on as our volunteer basis. So it's possible, it's theoretical. I'll leave it at that. So, yes. Oh, it's right behind you, yeah. So I think in Drupal 7, if we want to do the same thing, we had a scan model, we can do less or more the same thing, we can embed media or files or any type of entity into the body view and it's had a plugin to work with CQ Editor. But the implementation, the implementation is a lot, it's less clean than in Drupal 8 because of many limitations in Drupal 7 but we can have less or more the same functionality if we want to do this in Drupal 7. So I'll point out that I believe that Scald doesn't actually use a text filter to render the items which is what we're using in this module and it's thanks to the Drupal 8 improvements that we're doing a very, very late rendering of these actual entities. So like, even if the process text is cached, the actual rendering happens even after that. It actually happens after the text is retrieved from cache. So things like making sure that the user can access this node that's rendered is checked, very, very late and always checked and not cached. So I think that maybe one of the things that's hard to backport is the filter system. In Drupal 7 has a lot of, you can't late render many things that might be one of the hard challenges to do so. But this works anywhere that filter text is used not just in the field, like it could be anything that uses check markup. But it works on a field and not text format is the key. So it has to be a field value where it's used. So it is a technical implementation of how Scald actually uses some kind of token with an HTML comment. And then in the field formatter view kind of process replaces that. So it's like an alternative to the text format system kind of to get around some of the limitations of the Drupal 7 text format system. So, yes, in the back. I think it does, but we can check how the preview fetches in respect to additional attached CSS and JS, yeah. Okay, so I'll make sure that some things may need to operate differently with the preview mode in the WYSIWYG versus the actual rendering, we'll note that, thank you. Let's get through just the last little bit and then if we have more time for questions, we'll take them, okay? Yeah, so you're probably asking yourself, how can I help? Because we need your help. Currently, we are pretty confident that we have good plan that can really move the whole media ecosystem forward. And the biggest blocker right now is that we're all volunteers and we have very limited time that we can spend on this. And it's like the fact that the project that was Summer of Code project and we had a really smart and productive student for the whole summer dedicated only to embedding solution. And now embedding solution, it's way forward from everything else, basically. That proves that if we have people that are dedicated to this, we can achieve a lot. So without your help, any way of help like this won't magically happen. We need people from all different expertise. Currently, we're mostly working on backend development because it's the nature of the basic APIs. But sooner or later, probably sooner, we will need a lot of front-end work to be done, user experience design. We're also probably looking for a project management because we like to develop and we don't want to deal with that. We need your ideas, we need your past experience. We are collecting user stories for media on drupalmedia.org, am I correct? Yeah, so if you have something that you noticed during one of your projects, that was a huge problem and then you had to hack around it, go to drupalmedia.org and let us know. We have both right in the next slot. We have weekly scrum meetings on IRC. It's every Tuesday, 3.30 p.m. GMT. It might be one hour before or after depending on time zones because it's messy. But I think it's correct. Our development is done on GitHub in a group called drupalmedia. We automatically sync all our repos to drupal.org. So you can also find all the code there. We are using issues on drupal.org and we are linking pull requests to issues so to give you visibility that you need to help us. We're using hackpads for our notes and brainstormings and everything that needs to be written down. We have a group on GDO. You can contact us directly if you're more comfortable this way. Of course, we have a sprint on Friday. Come and help us. We will be on bed camp and you can organize a sprint if you want, let us know. If you have a developer that wants to dedicate a part of his, it's time. Let us know if you want to fund us. We would appreciate it because only this way it would happen. It will happen. And that's it and we have zero minutes for questions. I think we're pretty much at times. I think we'll call it. If you want to come check us out after this session or the buff right after this too. Thank you. Just digital. Just digital launch. Is this a launch or a launch?