I mean, we have half an hour. All right, let's start. All right, thank you. And welcome to the oddest panel seating I've ever experienced. And look, our fourth panelist running up to the stage. Perfect. Perfect timing. Because if we're not standing up, the cameras can't see us. All right, you know what? Let's make this a standing panel. I was not prepared for this, but let's stand up. It's half an hour. Welcome to this, but I will wander around and be visible. Excellent. Bridging the gap. Trying to figure out how we can best work together in the movement and specifically, we'll scratch the surface of what keeps us from doing so. My name is Johan Jonsson. I'm a Swedish Wikipedia and also working for the foundation where I handle part of the communication around product development. And this is the panel. Sam, who is a product manager, moderator tools. Runa, director for language and content growth. Sakti, who is the regional manager around Southeast Asia here. And Julia, who is a communication relations specialist working with fundraising. All these people work around the community in some way for the Wikimedia Foundation. If we had a lot of time and had a big conversation, it would make no sense to have just foundation folks talk about this. But we have 30 minutes. So we are going to scratch the surface a little bit and hopefully bring some clarity to a few of the things which makes this difficult. So very, very briefly, what are the issues we're facing when we're talking about the communities and the foundation having this gap and not always understanding each other? Sam, you have the microphone. Microphone, I'll start. So I wanted to talk about this a little from the sort of product perspective. So I work in the product department, building tools and features for the community. And I think for us in product, I think we in the community are pretty aligned, big picture. We want our products and tools to be as easy to use and feature rich and inviting as possible. But I think then the sort of gap arrives because there's just simply too much for us to do. Like there are so many different platforms and tools and skins and projects and ultimately only so many product teams. And so although we might both want all those features to be as good as possible, there's only so many things that we can do in a given year. And so I think the foundation is constantly trying to find what is the most impactful project we can do? What is the most requested project we can do? But ultimately we're going to miss things. There's going to be projects that simply don't quite make the cut given the limited number of things we can do. So that was all top of mind for me is that sort of constant prioritization that we're doing and how that may or may not line up with one community group to the next. Hi, so I'm also from the product and tech department like Sam. So besides the thing that he's already said, I primarily work with language support among other things, but that's a pretty front and center part of my work. And when you're talking about languages, you're actually connecting them directly to individual communities of various sizes. So the moment you are having that perspective of the people who form a certain language community, you see how small or big or connected, well connected, ill connected far away. They are from the entire movements core in a way and how they are connecting to different parts of it. And that could be like the technical part of it. That could be like the awareness part of it. There could be like other opportunities talking with each other. So I think the gap that I see and that I try to like constantly focus on the levels of the areas that we are working on is to make things as equitable as we can in terms of participation because the doors have to be kind of like more open for people to come through and be part of the movement, do what they need to do. Not necessarily everybody has to do the same thing, but if they're doing something, it has to be satisfactory and as easy as possible, not just from the product and tech part of it, but also from the other opportunities. So yeah, I work mainly with communities around fundraising and it's a topic which can be quite heated in the movement. Many people are not particularly interested in it. Some people are very interested in it and one of the things I encounter a lot as I try to do reach different communities. So on the one hand, the English Wikipedia is our biggest fundraising campaign in December. We reach the English Wikipedia community. What are the for us where we reach the right people to have discussions with? On the other hand, there's the international campaigns which are the non English campaigns from Japan to Brazil, Mexico, Italy, spreading across the globe and will also try to reach communities on those wikis, having the same conversation, talking to people about collaboration on fundraising, messaging in order to also I don't want to educate or kind of make people understand the importance of fundraising, why we fundraise the way we do, how we include community feedback and how important it is to bring our community on board, but ultimately also why we need to raise funds in order to fund our movement in order to have wikimania and other things. So finding places of having meaningful conversations with volunteers in different communities is one of the things that I keep working on. So I work for the partnerships in Southeast Asia around four years now and I can see that there is a thing that we that I personally believe very beneficial to improve the connection with the communities, which is interaction, direct interactions is very essential. I'm coming from the academic backgrounds and we love to generalize everything, right? We love to generalize. Let's make similar things here and there and here and there, but believe it or not, according to my experience in Southeast Asia regions, each communities are different. Their difference is how they perceive themselves as a community. The priorities of the wikimedia projects that they have sometimes they're less focused on wikipedia, but other wikimedia research project. And again, the cultural aspect is also important. So as the foundations itself, we need to be aware of it and understand from this cultural point of view. It's always a bit weird to have this conversation from the foundation perspective because we are the minority in this. This is more to present our view than to explain the problem in itself because we're just a tiny corner. But what are the different ways in which the communities and the wikimedia foundation understand decisions and prioritizations and how things come to be because quite often we end up where there are in communities one understanding, or many understandings with one dominating understanding, which is different from the understanding in the wikimedia foundation. And how does that happen? Yeah, so on the product side of things, I think something that I see quite often is there's a kind of group of users, maybe it's a whole wikimedia project, maybe it's just a subset of that project. They have a product or tool that they need worked on that doesn't fulfill some of their needs at the moment. And obviously for them that's the most important thing in the world, right? That's the tool they use every day. It doesn't work for some reason. It doesn't have a feature they need. And to them it seems very obvious that that thing should just be fixed, right? I just need this button being added or I just need something that seems fairly simple. And I was a volunteer before I joined the foundation. Absolutely participated in those kinds of discussions where I said like surely it's easy just to add this one button, right? It's only a small thing and it would be very impactful for me. But then I think at the foundation we're seeing that issue 200 times, 300 times, all of these little groups that say I just need my one thing fixed. And so it's, I think sometimes then it's just a process of us trying to figure out, okay, how can we possibly have the most impact, which is the one that is going to affect the most number of users or be the biggest difference from where something is now to where it could be. And then trying to go back and communicate and justify that to all of those other groups that had their thing that they really needed to work on. Can be a real challenge. One good example of that is the, there's a project we're working on at the moment on my team to improve some software on English Wikipedia for the patrollers, for the new page patrollers. That's a project that we hadn't worked on for many years because ultimately it's a piece of software only used by a few dozen editors. And so it was quite hard to prioritize that, you know, that we were always comparing it to, well, we could work on this thing that is for all administrators or all patrollers or all active editors. But for them, that's a critical process, right? It's a thing that doesn't work. And so I'm glad that we're finally spending some time on it. But it's going to be hard in the long run to say that we should work on that rather than some other big project. So that's something I've been thinking about and trying to figure out how can we strike the right balance between those small projects and the, maybe big projects. I think I would have said the same thing as Sam would if Sam has. So I'll pass it to Julia or Shakti for a different perspective. Sure. So from the fundraising, it's also very much of like, we need to fundraise. It's how our movement is funded. How do we communicate that in a way that people understand but also see how the money we raise is used, how they have access to it. So the kind of whole life span of the fundraising from the banners, which is on someone's home wiki and disrupts readers and might bring people into spaces with complaints where you don't want them. So that's why we try to do the fundraising campaigns as short and efficient as possible to interrupt the projects the least. But like then also explaining why it is necessary and how the whole life span of the funding works in the movement is something to kind of work on to also, yeah, understand the need of the fundraising. Well, from the partnerships perspective itself again, when we're engaged with partners, impact is really essential. We need to create, you know, impact that able to cover, you know, more regions and also benefit to the community itself. So the key is communications in here. We need to find the middle ground whether this kind of collaboration should be beneficial for them as well. So when we have a good communications with them explaining to them and become a good listener, I think it will create a consensus and also mutual understanding between the foundation and the volunteers. So sticking a little bit to the question, what do we need to do better at the foundation around the specific things you just mentioned? Because we talked about our perspective, but it's not like there's this one perspective and people just need to understand it, right? Yeah, absolutely. I think it's a huge topic. I'm not going to have the answer, but for sure some of the things that I'm thinking about is this question of how can we make sure everyone feels heard, even if we're not going to prioritize the thing that they're particularly interested in? What can we do to support them or how can we integrate their view into the thing we are going to do? And also like maybe I think something we've been trying to do for a long time is not only listen to the loud voices in the movement, it's very easy for someone to dominate a conversation on English Wikipedia. I love the bludgeoning policy or guideline that it's very easy to take over a discussion just by saying a lot. And so I think we've tried to stay clear of not only listening to loud voices, but I also think sometimes we need to consider that maybe they're being loud for a reason, maybe there's something we should be paying attention to and trying to balance kind of the very broad consultation with also the sort of quite specific listening and engagement that we need to do to make sure that we're really prioritizing the right work that solves as many problems as possible. I want to build upon what Sam just said as well as Shakti because so I work from India, which is like way far away from San Francisco. So I have a perspective for the local regions around me as well. So while English Wikipedia is a pretty big presence in my country, the communities over there are much like not associated primarily with the English Wikipedia. They're associated with their local dictionaries, Wiki sources with their local language Wikipedia's or for, you know, local activities and stuff like that. So when we are trying to understand what exactly we need to connect on, we probably have to look a bit deeper into like what exactly is the need for that group of people? Is it a natural alignment for them to come to the more prominent platforms like, you know, on fabricator where we have our issue tracking system or on top pages of different Wikipedia's or are the local gathering spaces more, you know, more friendly or less intimidating for people to come and make like, you know, natural connection points with the foundation folks who want to like, you know, mutually understand each other's perspective, understand how they're building priorities, what exactly are the challenges they are both facing while they're trying to move in the same direction of like, you know, movement growth. So there could be those little spots of interactions that we can customize around our around ourselves and see if we can maybe utilize them, scale them up in other directions and then also like, find them, find how they connect into the more conventional interaction spaces. Yeah, I want to build briefly on what you said because I think the whole listening to people is absolutely crucial from a fundraising perspective. Yes, we need to fundraise, but we need to tell people or explain to people why we fundraise the way we do fundraise and also give people the space to collaborate with us on this. So it's not just the one way conversation but the listening and hearing people's input is really important. Like, for this year's English campaign, for example, we have an extensive collaboration page which is on Wiki where people can already input now like five months before the campaign. So having this listening and collaboration aspect to it hopefully helps us to all move forward together and making it the whole communication but also the whole aspects around it better. We just had a meeting. I don't know, maybe 15 minutes ago, right, with one of communities in Asia and we are aware that I think cultural sensitivity, it's also important. Are you agree with me, Sam? Yes, cultural sensitivity. This is something that might quite difficult to explore one by one because culture is various across countries. However, even though it takes time, it's worth it to build a good understanding and see how our volunteers across cultures mindset how they perceive something how will they think even though it takes time but it's worth it. We have talked a bit about how one can try to bridge the gap. Why is there a gap? How has the gap formed from the very beginning? That's a really terrifying question. I have one specific thought though on this which is that software development is really hard from a product perspective. It's especially hard in MediaWiki more so than in other contexts. I mentioned this sort of thing of when as a volunteer I thought I could just ask for a button that did a thing and surely that's pretty easy. It turns out MediaWiki is really hard to develop in and projects take a lot more time than you think they're going to just purely from the technical side of things ignoring obviously all the design iterations and trying to make sure you're building the right thing. MediaWiki is a really complicated ecosystem and so when I joined the foundation I would sort of and we started working on sort of product solutions. I'd be sort of assuming that things would work way quicker than they did. Again, an estimate for an engineer and someone told me that yeah, you probably need to at least triple that estimate and I was like, wow, okay. That's very surprising to me. So it's a lot harder to just fix something than it seems.  The different communities want you to work on. So it's a huge topic. That's not the whole the whole answer, but I think that's one thing that sort of contributes to this is that you know, when you look at something like the wishlist survey that I don't know if really wants to add anything to that, but it's really hard to jump around to all of these disparate places in the MediaWiki ecosystem and just make small changes. I think about the wishlist, I think your first point covered it also. I'll not repeat on that, but to your specific question about how this may have formed, the specifics of what may have contributed to how things are right now or what they were and where we have gone. Those could be like, you know, very specific and you may get a different answer when you ask different people, but on the general side of things, like when you have projects starting at a certain scale, a small scale, even the Wikimedia movement started much, much smaller than what it is right now. And when you keep growing, there is of course, like, you know, the challenges of scaling up when you have more people in the setting, little groups form here and there, trusted groups form. People are not talking to each other or trying to build their own little, you know, interest areas. And if the connection points are not built out very well as it grows and I'm not saying that we did a bad job of anything. It's the general tendency of any, any project growing to a bigger scale. Things like this will happen. Things like these gaps are inevitable. They will happen. It's just identifying them and making sure we are addressing them much sooner. And it's possible that we didn't address a lot of these gaps earlier and we are, or we are doing them as we see they are like, you know, as we see them getting like, you know, easier to handle or if they are like, you know, causing a big, big fire of some sort and we suddenly have to like, okay, no, we can't like, you know, not pay attention to this anymore. So, and when I say we, I don't mean the foundation. I mean, everybody in the movement because everyone's like, probably struggling with their own issues related to how like, their little affiliates have grown from like, 10 years ago to now or their user groups have grown from before to now and, and all of that. So, possibly that's just challenges of us growing from like, a hundred percent, a hundred percent, Wikimania this time. And that's how it is. And I'm glad that we are talking about it because this is how things will slowly fall into places. We'll identify where are the challenges? How do we address them? How do we keep talking about them? How do we surface them? And onwards from there. Yeah, I don't have much to add to that. That was very good. I think also with the area I work in, I mean, fundraising, everyone has an opinion. We're all humans and we all like to voice our opinion. So it's finding that kind of safe space where we can all constructively talk together in order to bridge the gap that everyone's opinion has probably brought about. Yeah, well, it's going to be a long effort, but let's do it slowly, but sure, right? Slowly, but sure. Does it help with people who are active in both groups? And in that case, how? And with both groups, I mean, I mean, as community members and Wikimedia staff. Yes. No, but I given them both active on English Wikipedia and also member of staff of the foundation. I find that I spend a lot of my day actually either communicating with one of those groups, right? Either either speaking to to volunteers to to community members, editors about a thing that's going on at the foundation, trying to kind of add as much useful information as I can. You know, not not trying to be an inside mole or anything, but you know, try and like explain perspectives or elaborate on like how things are working or why something is being prioritized and vice versa. You know, the Wikimedia movement is a very complicated place and quite regularly at the foundation, you know, someone needs to work on a project and they know nothing about it yet. And so I along with plenty of other wonderful people at the foundation that are also community members. I do spend a fair amount of my time then kind of trying to explain or give perspectives on some community initiative, some tools, some some user group and try to bridge that gap and make sure that perspective is being heard. So yeah, that's generally a fair amount of my time is kind of those sorts of discussions on on both sides. It's funny that your creatures of habit and talking the same sequence. Yeah, but anyways, so I did not join the Wikimedia movement as a volunteer, although my entire career has been in various kinds of open source projects. But so I did not have the community perspective when I became a staff in the Wikimedia Foundation. But over the over the years, I think there's like I have, I don't consider myself outside the community at all. I mean, it's just a identity that we have built for ourselves how we are. Being in both places, I like I said, I can't really make that distinction where I am just wearing this hat or that hat. It's a blended hat for me. But I think it's interesting to like have a better peak into how the communities are changing. That gives a lot of insights into how the communication might need to be like, you know, changed in structure. Like for instance, if you're talking with people who have been in the movement since the last 15, 20 years, that's kind of like a different profile of volunteers who have a different connection, a different historical legacy with the project, how they showed up 20 years ago, how they're connecting now. Maybe they're using just one kind of device for all the work that they do on the on the Wikimedia platforms, whereas compared to like compare some of the newer volunteers or recent entrance. You'll see the perspectives being very different and their connections being different. They are their their ambitions being very different. So it does help to understand what exactly is the weather outside the offices of the foundation. If you may and see how the movement is like the dynamics of the movement changing and like building up on that and figuring out how to like, you know, build the perspective stock amongst ourselves and say, okay, if you're coming from this area, this demographic group or this region, like what what to expect? What what do you expect if you are having a conversation with the communities over there? We are approaching the end of this panel. So if either of you have something to add to this topic, that's fine. No, I mean like you don't come from the movement as such. Yeah. Do we have any comments or questions from the audience? This last two minutes, I got out of my own. I've been it's very good at not interrupting them so far. I'm one of those who have joined almost 20 years ago, which Runa talked about. And I think both on the community side and on the foundation side, it's sometimes easy to forget that if you have full, you want full control. So if you're working on software, you want to control your software. You think that all right, I'm I was hired for this. I know what to do. This is my area of expertise.  I need to control this. I'm the one who understands this. And in a sufficiently big circumstance, so to speak, you will always lack control. And that is incredibly frightening. And that is going to be frightening on all sides. And that is very difficult to solve. That is one of the things we need to patch all the time. And it's just not fixable. It's just human nature. Thank you everyone for listening. Thank you panel. Thank you audience.


Good afternoon, everyone. I'm Nick Brophy, your host and director of DAV Patriot Bootcamp. Welcome back to DAV Patriot Bootcamp, Caffeine Connect, a webinar series designed for the modern entrepreneurs seeking to fuel their passion and drive for success. Just as a shout out Caffeine Boost Energy, this series stimulates your entrepreneurial spirit, practical insights and key topics shaping the business landscape. And today we have a great program for you, one of our local experts and entrepreneurs brought to us by Jill Morenz, the president and CEO of AVH Accelerators. You're not familiar with AVH Accelerators. They're an all-women's accelerator program in Cincinnati focused on building a community where women can thrive, control their own destiny, build wealth, and make their entrepreneurial dreams come true with nearly 10 years of nonprofit experience and twice as long as an entrepreneur. Jill is leading AVH Accelerators into the next phase of growth. Jill's created two businesses in her career and leverages those insights as the president CEO of AVH Accelerator as she works with female entrepreneurs on setting them up for business success. Jill has also been an excellent and committed mentor in our DAV Patriot Bootcamp. And so for that, we're very grateful for her continued support of our veteran and spouse entrepreneurs. As such, Jill has created this unique segment called Side Hustle Without the Hustle where she'll show you how to fit a side business into your busy life and get started in just seven days. And she does this by talking about getting scrappy and focusing on what's necessary and most importantly, ignoring what's not. So Jill, at this time, the floor is yours. We're here to learn how to start a side hustle without a hustle. Perfect, thank you so much, Nick. I'm really pleased to be here. Thank you to everybody who's watching us. So I am gonna share my screen for my slides. All right, so as Nick said, this is Side Hustle Without the Hustle, how to fit a side hustle into your busy life and set it up in seven days. So there is a workbook. So I think that in the chat, the workbook is, there's a link to the workbook so you can do that or you can use the QR code here. You don't need to have the workbook to follow along with while we're doing the presentation, but in the future, I think it might be helpful to you to remember what we talked about and work through some of the decisions and the questions that are gonna come up as we go. So here's what we're gonna talk about today. So we're gonna talk about why side hustles are great, which I very much believe, how to fit a side business into your life and how to move forward, even if there's challenges along the way that make you kind of get you off track a little bit, how to move through those things. And then also the seven sets of decisions that you will need to make when starting your side hustle. So the Side Hustle Without the Hustle system is, as I said, how to set up a side business in seven days. So those seven days, obviously don't have to be done right in a row, right? You can do them over a period of a longer time, but it's seven sets of decisions and actions that you'll take. And then by the end, you'll be ready to start your business. So let's move on. So the plan actually for today is, we're gonna talk about all that stuff that I mentioned, and then I'm gonna share some next steps for you. And then at the end, we will do some Q&A. So here is a question for you. And if you're on Zoom, you can answer in the chat, where there's gonna be some numbers. So hang on a second for the next slide. My question to you is, why do you wanna start a side hustle? Of course, besides making extra money. So here's, you can answer in the chat with the number. So number one, two, or three. So number one is you have a skill that you'd like to monetize. So think about that like, if you have, maybe you are really good at baking or doing IT stuff or making cool things out of wood, something like that. So that would be a skill that you'd like to make money from. Might be that you have a passion to share with the world. For example, my passion is helping people start businesses.  And you wanna share that about the benefits of organic foods, right? So maybe that's your passion. And three, so you can put more than one number in. Maybe you're a one and a three, for example. So three is I want to build my business for the future. So that's thinking a little bit longer term, right? You wanna make money now, but also you wanna have something that might grow with you and might eventually be your main gig. So let's think about the chat. So I can't see the chat. So our program manager and marketing strategist, Jasmine, it's going to share if there's any answers in the chat. Looks like we've got a lot of threes. Great, love that. And a couple of ones and twos as well. That's wonderful. Thank you very much. So I'm gonna tell you a little bit myself. I personally am a one and a two. So my first business, my degree is in interior design. My first business was called Design for Real People. And that was, I was very much wanted to share this idea that good design and beautiful home should be accessible to people at all income levels. So that I started that full-time and then went to change it to a side hustle when I had my kids. And then my second business, which was only ever a side hustle was called Sharp Blue Pencil. And I did writing like a website copy and email newsletters. It was primarily email newsletters for other people. And so that one was turning a skill that I had into a business. And now, as Nick mentioned, I run Aviatria Accelerators and we offer education, resources and community for women entrepreneurs so they can start their businesses and grow them faster and with more confidence. So let's talk about the difference between a side hustle and a second job. So if you have any thoughts about this in the chat, please put them in. I'm interested to hear what you think about the difference between a side hustle and a second job. So a lot of times people think of like, for example, driving Uber as a side hustle, which it kind of is, but it really is working for someone else. So it's actually, I would say, technically a second job. Does anybody have any comments on the chat, Jess? No, nothing yet. Okay, I'm gonna move forward, but I will tell you that when you said that there were a lot of number threes in the chat, people who wanted to build a business for the future, this is what we're gonna be talking about today is building a business of your own that can help you reach your goals and that fits your lifestyle and your interests. So I really believe that starting a business as a side hustle is the best way to take control of your future and build something that's yours because it reduces a lot of the risk and a lot of the stress that comes if you were just to try to build a business and not have any other source of income at the same time. So if you start as a side hustle, you have your day job and that's some income that's helping you pay your bills and the side hustle is extra money and you can grow it or leave it as a side business as you wish, but it just does reduce a lot of that stress that you have if you're trying to pay all of your bills with your side hustle. Kind of exciting, the whole thing, right? Starting a side hustle. So I do wanna talk about some of the things that come up. You might be excited really right now about starting your business, but life happens and things come up. And so I wanted to talk about some of those things, the most common reasons why people don't end up starting a business. So I did some research on this. So these are people who want to start a business, but for some reason don't end up doing that. So I'm gonna go through the reasons and then we'll talk through each one in a little bit more depth and give you some strategies for overcoming these obstacles. So the first one is lack of funding. Fear of failure, that's a big one. People who feel overwhelmed or not sure of what they should do, too busy, right? Like that's a big one. That's part of what the name of the court of this workshop is how to fit it into your busy life. And then a lot of people just don't know if they have the right idea and are reluctant to move forward without knowing. So let's talk about each of these things. So the funding piece. So most people start a side hustle in pretty frugal way. So they're trying to be really scrappy and try to do it kind of on a shoestring. And that is definitely what I recommend because you don't want to have a whole lot of, again, pressure on your side hustle to make back a lot of money that you put into it on the front end. So if you have a startup costs that are a little bit higher, maybe you can borrow money from family and friends for a little while. But I think really the goal with your side hustle is to get it starting to generate income for you pretty quickly. And then you can use that money to help put more money into the business and help it grow. So fear of failure. Of course, I'm gonna give you a roadmap to start the business so you can feel more confident. But there's also some other strategies to help with the fear of failure. So one of them, and there's this page for this in the workbook is think through, think about what are some of the difficult things that you've already done in your life that you've gotten through and write them down. And I recommend reading that list. When you're feeling overwhelmed or unsure of how you're gonna proceed, I recommend just reading that list and thinking, you know what, I have done hard things and I can do hard things again. Another part of fear is imposter syndrome. So why am I doing this? Why me? How dare I have the audacity to think I can do this, right? So some of the things, ways to deal with that, first one, ask yourself, why not me? If some other people can do it, why shouldn't I be able to do it, right? That's a big one, I think. Another piece of that is something to remember is, even though you may be new at owning a business, the thing that you're doing for your business, you're probably pretty experienced at.  So that part of it is you can feel really confident about. And then the other piece of it is just being really honest. This is what has worked for me personally. I'm very honest about being new at something and it kind of, it's very freeing. It really is. Now, if you just say, hey, I've been a photographer for years, but this is my first paid gig and I'm really excited. Just be honest about it. And you'll be really pleased to how many people will want to support you when you're new, starting out. So another obstacle that stops people from moving forward is being unsure of what to do. So again, this SideHus Without the Hustle system gives you some specific activities to do, specific steps that should carry you through. So each day you just make the decisions that you need to make and do the activities that you need to do and then by the end you'll be ready to go. So too busy. This one, it feels through for all of us, I know. So let's talk about this. I love this theory about time that was shared by the Entrepreneur's Magazine Editor-in-Chief. So he thinks of time as a balloon. So he says, you don't expand a balloon and then put air into it. You put air into it and the balloon expands, right? So if you look at your calendar or your life in that same way, it's very hard to clear out a couple hours a day. But if you add something that's really important to you into your day, your calendar kind of expands around it. Like not everything is gonna stay, right?  Like maybe you're not gonna be able to spend quite as much time binging Netflix in the evenings or something, you might have to wake up earlier. Some of the things will drop off that are lower priority, but basically just start and your calendar, your schedule, your life will kind of expand around it. And then that last objection is about not having a good idea. So let's talk about what I call the three E's of how to find a good idea. So three E process. So three E's for finding a good idea. The first one is experiences. So think about what you have done in your life that was enjoyable or challenging. So maybe you have run a marathon and trained yourself to do that, right? Maybe you planned your own wedding. I heard somebody had a business who they love to go to theme parks and ride all the roller coasters. So they had created a business around recommending, rating, rating and recommending all the different roller coasters. So after you've kind of made that list of some of your experiences, then think about could you teach it? Could you talk about it? Or could you do it for someone else? So the first E is experiences. The second E is expertise. So for example, are you really good at graphic design or do you love making cupcakes or maybe you're an expert at growing the perfect tomato? So could you teach about how to grow the perfect tomato? Could you talk about it? Like talk about the benefits of having a tomato that is grown organically to the perfect ripeness? You know what it's got? What are the nutritional benefits of that? Or could you grow tomatoes for someone else? So either come to their garden and grow the tomatoes for them or grow them in your garden and then sell them at a farmer's market. And then the third E is enthusiasm. So I always ask people, okay, what do you, what interests or hobbies do you have that you could just talk about all day long? Because that would be a really good idea for a business. You're obviously an expert. You have a lot of enthusiasm and passion about it. So maybe you, as I said with the photography example, maybe you take beautiful photographs. Maybe you're learning to paint portraits or maybe you just, maybe your passion is dogs and you know a lot about different dogs. So again, could you teach it? Could you talk about it or could you do it for someone else? So now that you have an idea for your side also or at least you know how to get an idea. Now let's talk about the side hustle without the hustle system. So the concept here. So some people have the opposite problem of not having an idea. They have too many ideas. So people with an entrepreneurial mindset see opportunities everywhere. So they see lots of ways that different problems in life could be solved and they think of different ways that they could start a business around that. And that is an amazing skill to have amazing talent. But the ideas that they have so many ideas it's hard for them to figure out which one they should focus on. So what I recommend is just start one, right? And you're not necessarily gonna start a business but you're gonna start thinking through whether an idea will be a good business for you. And all the other ideas for now, take a notebook and write them all down because you don't wanna lose them. You can come back to them later. And then once you settle on an idea for your business you're probably gonna have a whole bunch more ideas about that specific thing. So similar process, take a notebook and write them all down but the idea of the side hustle without the hustle is focus. So you're gonna take one idea and work on that. And then if it doesn't work, find a problem, take another idea, right? So initially you're gonna think it through but once you've settled on one you're actually, this is gonna be your business then you really have to focus. The idea of side hustle without the hustle is, you don't have a ton of time. This is not a 40 hour a week thing. This is something that you're trying to fit in around your other things in your life. So you have to focus otherwise you won't get anywhere. All right, second piece of side hustle without the hustle is asking yourself what would this idea look like if it were simple?  So you have this beautiful jewelry and you dream of having a jewelry store that is so fabulous and you have classes in there and you have fashion show and you have all kinds of magazine shoots there and this is your big dream. It's gonna take a little while to get there, right? It's expensive to rent a store and build up enough inventory to have it and on and on. So that's your big dream but what would it look like if it were simple now? So perhaps you could sell your jewelry on Etsy. Maybe you could have a booth at the craft fair. The easiest thing might be simply be to make some jewelry find a local shop that likes to showcase artists from the region and offer them a few pieces for them to carry and they're paying the rent and they're paying the electrical and they're paying the advertising and all you have to do is make your jewelry and sell it there. So that's another piece of it. Take your big idea and scale it down to start with for your side hustle. What would it look like if it were simple? And then the third piece is think like a scientist. So you know how when a scientist has a theory so they have a theory and they want to prove see if it's true. So they do some experiments and if the experiments show that the theory wasn't true they go, oh, well, that wasn't true. Let's see, maybe it's this instead and they come up with a new theory and they do experiments for that. And the key to that is they don't have their whole heart in the success of their first theory. So this is what I want to encourage you to do when you're starting your business don't have your whole heart in one way that this thing could work out, right? Like you could say the only way I'm gonna be happy is if I have a jewelry store brick and mortar that where I have magazine shoots if that's the only way you're gonna be happy that's unfortunate because it's a lot of work to get there. So think, okay, so let's say you make these jackets and you make blue jackets and green jackets and you're like, oh, for sure.  And it sounds like this is the green jackets. Well, if you just give up and go, well, I wanted to make the blue jackets forget it I'm not making any green jackets. Well, then there goes your business. So the idea is not to have your whole heart set into that be able to pivot. And that's one of the best things about having a side hustle is that because you're not relying on all the money that you make with your side hustle to pay all of your bills, you can be much more nimble and you can change. Oh, well, okay, my customers want green jackets. Okay, I'll make green jackets, right? So think like a scientist so that your whole heart isn't in something working out in one specific way and you're more flexible. Okay, so now you have an idea and we talked about strategies on how to fit side business into your busy life and how to combat your fears and the importance of focus and thinking like the scientist. So now let's get into the seven days of decisions and actions. Okay, so I wanna start with this one page business plan is in your workbook. And I like to start with it because as you go through the seven days you will be able to fill all this out. So a lot of times people think of a business plan as something like a really complicated document with lots of spreadsheets and everything. And I will say that if you're going to get like going for a loan, it probably should be that complicated. But right now we're just doing this one page business plan very simple. Basically, what are you gonna sell? Who's gonna buy it? How much are you gonna charge, right? Like super basic stuff. And I will point out that at the very end of that business plan is this piece that says I will consider my business a success when. And so I really want you to think about that. Again, this is not your big dream goal. This is your little dream goal. This is for your side hustle. When will you consider your side hustle a success? When you have three customers, when you made $1,000, right? Like in this, I don't mean stop at 1,000, right? Keep going. But it's helpful to have some realistic goals that you can actually meet so that you really feel like you feel that momentum. You know, like this is gonna work. I can do this. So I encourage you to think that through and kind of have some reasonable, realistic goals. So day one of the seven days. So day one is your idea and the problem that it solves. So we already talked about your idea. So you have that.  This is so critical. So a lot of people, not a lot of people. I would say some people start thinking about the business that they wanna have by thinking about the type of people that they want to have as their customers. And I think it's actually a better idea to start thinking about what problem you want to solve. So I don't know if you've heard the saying every business solves a problem. So it's really true when you think about it. And we're gonna talk about problems and solutions. And then we're gonna dig a little bit deeper.  So big problems, we have an example. One of our ADHD alumni, she is solving, she's making, this is a big problem. She's created this, invented this big machine that's called the electrolyzer and it takes greenhouse gases out of the air, does its little thing in the middle, inside the machine and then on the other side it puts out, it takes the greenhouse gases and changes them into pure oxygen and then a compound that you can use to make sustainable plastic. So it's like a big problem, right? Like fixing the greenhouse effect, amazing. So then we have people who are doing solving medium problems. So we have another alum of ours is she has a baby food business, a healthy, fresh baby food business and the problem that she's solving is helping parents who want to give their children healthy baby food without taking the time to actually make it. So she makes it and then sells it to them. So it's a medium problem, right? Having healthy food for your children.   So it really, really makes everything so much easier and leads to success when you really think deeply about the problem that you were solving. So let's think about dog food. Okay, so top level, what problem does dog food solve? Hungry dogs, right? Like you've got a hungry dog, here's some dog food. So if that's the only problem that it solved, why isn't there only one kind of dog food? I'm sure if you've ever walked down a dog food aisle you will know that there are hundreds of different kinds of dog foods and they all do different things and the companies who make those dog foods, they know, well, we're gonna focus on different types of problems that dogs have or dog parents have, right?  So you need a special dog food to address that or maybe you have an older dog and they need to, you know, joint care that can come with as a benefit of the food that they eat. So what do you do with that information? Well, you make the product perfectly for that problem to solve that problem. And then that's how you connect with your customers.  So there's this older dog and then there's a little boy who the dog is his best friend and has been his best friend since the little boy was born and the dog has kind of, you know, got some mobility issues and it's finding it hard to walk around and the little boy is just so sad and feels so bad for his dog. So then they feed the dog this food that helps it feel better.  And by the end of the commercial, you're like crying because you just feel so good about that dog being in better health now, right? So the marketers were like, this is the real problem we solve. Not the older dog, not the hungry dog, not the joint thing, the real problem we solve is making sure that your family's best friend has the best life they can have. So you can see how powerful that is instead of somebody just standing in there and going, hey, if you have a hungry dog, I've got some food, right? And that's what I want you to do for your product or service. You have to really think, what problem are you actually solving? And that's how people are gonna flock to you, right? They're not gonna be able to say no because you're solving exactly the problem that they have. Okay, so that was day one. Alrighty, now we've gotten pretty far on day one. So now day two, we're gonna talk about your ideal customer. So this is your perfect customer. So you're gonna dive pretty deep into this, especially when you go to the workbook. There's a lot about this. So it kind of sounds silly, but it is absolutely critical and big companies like Ann Taylor, Vogue, so many other companies do this. They do this down to, they come up with a name for their ideal customer. So let's talk a little bit more about who that could be. So your perfect customer could be somebody that you make up. So let's say that you're a wedding photographer and you have this, especially when you're in a new business, you probably have to make up a customer because you don't have any yet. So you're gonna make up, it's a new wedding photography business and your ideal customer that you're making up is a bride who is very chill. She loves you, loves your work that she's seen and she thinks your prices are very reasonable and she's like, I'm gonna let you handle all the photography and thank you, right? Sounds like a very perfect customer. So it could also be, your perfect customer could be an actual customer that you've had who was really like that. Could also be a composite of several different customers. So maybe one of the brides was really chill and it was the opposite of a bridezilla. And then another bride was a little bit more of a bridezilla but you're gonna ignore that part of her for this purpose and you're gonna say, well, she didn't have a problem with my price at all. So you can mind those two brides and that's your perfect customer. And your perfect customer could also be an earlier version of yourself. So that could be, let's say, if you're a fitness coach and you used to be very unfit and then you figured out a way to, a regimen and now you're really buff. So when you're talking to your customer you're not talking to yourself as already really fit. You're talking to the person that you used to be when you wanted to get fit, right? And the whole reason that we're digging into our perfect customer is so that we know how to talk to that customer when we're selling to them and we're more marketing, when we're thinking about the types of products that they need, you have to have that perfect customer and you're designing kind of everything around them. So the perfect customer is the person who has the problem that you're solving, okay? So let's talk a little bit about why you should care. I have a little story for you. So when I was doing my sharp blue pencil business doing the email newsletters, I worked with a woman whose name, she's an artist and her name is Susan and she made these really cool digital art pieces of muscle cars. So like Ferraris and Mustangs and stuff like that, really cool. And she, they were really big. She would print them out on these great big pieces of metal and she would take them to car shows and she would have a booth at a car show and all these car guys would walk by and go, oh my God, that's my dream car right there. I love that. I love that car. She's like, well, this is $400. Like get it, you can put it on your wall and they're like, cool, okay. And they'd walk right by and they wouldn't buy. And she was very, very frustrated and also really puzzled because these, the guys were saying they loved the art. Why were they not buying it?  His car, right? So her actual customer, ideal customer, perfect customer was the people who buy presents for the car guys, right? So the car guy has a friend who is not a car enthusiast and wants to buy a present for the car guy, what are they gonna get? I don't know what kind of special wheel covers the car guy wants, right? But they do know that his favorite car is a blue Mustang. So they're gonna buy piece of art that has the blue Mustang.  So let's not have that happen to you, okay? We're gonna like focus in early day two, in fact, on who your personal, your perfect customer is. All right, day three, pricing, what will you charge? Well, you know, that depends. So let's talk about it. So here's three common pricing strategies. This is pretty high level, but you know, you can dig into this. So the first strategy is cost plus. So let's say you're making candles and your costs of the candle, you have to buy the glass jar and the wax and the fragrance and the wick and the label and the box. And so you add up how much you have to pay for all that. And let's say it's $10 and then you double that and you sell the candle for $20. So that's cost plus markup, okay? Now let's look at competition-based pricing. So if you are at a farmer's market and there's two other people selling candles at the farmer's market and they're selling their candles for $10 each and yours candles are $20 each. The other people at the farmer's market are gonna be like, huh, I think there's something wrong here. Like why would I pay for $20 for a candle when I can just go to this person and buy a candle for $10? So you have to know your competition. Now, there's a couple of ways you could go with this. You could lower your price and or do that. You would have to lower your markup or lower your costs. Or you could start positioning yourself as a luxury candle, right? Well, my candle is different. It's better than the $10 candles. And that's kind of where the value-based pricing comes in. So this is really less about how much it costs, although you have to know that.  Your competition is charging. But the rest of it, the value-based comes in how you're gonna position your product. So if you wanna be that luxury candle, maybe you have one of those wood wicks instead of a cloth wick. And the wood kind of crackles like a little fire. And then you have this beautiful glass jar. And the scent is really like, it smells like the inside of a limousine or something like that, right? Like some really fancy candle. And this is how you're justifying its price. Like people don't need to know that it costs you $10 to make the candle. You can sell it for $40. They don't care. What they're buying is the value of it, this beautiful candle that sounds like a wood fire when it's burning. So that's something to think about too, how you wanna put price yourself, right? Where do you wanna be on the continuum? And I will say that when you're starting your side hustle, you can start cheaper than your competition because you aren't as experienced and you need customers and you need experience and you need to kind of learn as you go. So I think it's a good idea to start a little bit cheaper than the competition, but knowing what your ultimate goal is, you can make changes and just raise your prices as you go. All right, day four, marketplace and social media platform. So marketplace is where will you sell? And you know that side hustle without the hustle thing, you know I'm gonna tell you, pick one place. So you're not gonna sell on your website and on Etsy and on Facebook marketplace and in the farmer's market. You don't have that much time, okay? Side hustle without the hustle is focus, focus, focus. So you're gonna pick one marketplace. Maybe you're gonna sell your beautiful jewelry on Etsy. There it is. Now it's not to say you can't add other things later, right? But we're gonna start with one and learn, see if that works for you, if it doesn't work for you, you're gonna switch to another marketplace, all right? And same thing with the social media platform, you're gonna pick one. And here's the hard part potentially is don't pick the one necessarily that you feel most comfortable on.  So that's where it comes back to, really understanding your perfect customer. Where are they? Where do they shop? Where do they hang out online? That's how you make the decision of where to sell and where to advertise on social media. And I don't mean paid advertising necessarily, but where to market on social media. Okay, so day five, we're going back to the business plan. So what will I sell? You know that already. Who will buy it? You know that, that's your perfect customer. Why will they buy it? That's the problem that you're solving, right? They will buy your dog food because they have an older dog that they love and they want him to feel healthy, right? The second part, what will I charge and how will customers pay me?  If you're selling, I know a woman here locally who has a little cottage baking goods business. She posts things on Instagram, people message her and if they want something and then they Venmo her the money. So, you know, very, very scrappy, right? Very scrappy. And then the marketing and marketplace, where will you sell and how will they find you? How will they find you is the marketing piece. And then of course, defining success. So by day five, you should be able to fill out that one page business plan. And now we're gonna move on to marketing. So day six is talking about your business. Very important to be able to talk fluently and enthusiastically about what you do. So there's some room in your workbook for a brain dump.  Again, like let's say that nutrition coach and you helped your sister get healthy and fit. Great, you're gonna include her, right? You're gonna tell her story. The benefits and features of your product or your service. So if you remember, the benefits are the thing. So like the really good camera on the iPhone. I'm sorry, that's the feature. The feature is the thing, like the really good camera on the iPhone and the benefit is what that camera does for you. So it lets you take amazing pictures without having to get an expensive camera. Then humble brags. So those are like, well, my sister did the work but I, with my guidance, she got to her goal of losing 20 pounds, right? So that's a humble brag. If you were involved, the other person did the work but you were involved, right? And then the other one is your story. Tell your story, how did you come to this? That's a great way. People love to hear the background stories of how people got into their business. All right, day seven, y'all. That's the last day. Time to sell. There is a template. So for the announcements piece. So you're gonna wanna kind of make a little bit of a splash when you're ready to go here. So the announcements in the workbook, there's a template for an email that I want you to send. It's the way that it's worded is encourages people to help you rather than to make them feel like you're selling to them or pressuring them. So I really encourage you to take a look at that. Then, hey, congratulations, you have business. So going forward, day eight and beyond, you're gonna test, just like that scientist, you're gonna see what people want, how they're reacting to your pricing and your products and all that. And then you're gonna make changes based on that. And again, the beautiful part of having a side hustle is you're very nimble and then you're gonna keep going. You're just gonna keep doing that. Test, tweak, repeat, right? I've talked to a lot of business owners and they all tell me, without exception, that after a few years, the way their business looks now is not the way it looked at the beginning. They've made changes and grown and changed the business in reaction to the things that they learned about themselves and what they wanted to do and the things that they learned about their customers. So I'm excited to hear about how you're feeling, whether you're like really pumped and ready to go.  Other things you might be feeling, maybe be excited but nervous, overwhelmed, unsure. Maybe you wanna learn more and I know for sure that you want the best chance of success. So this workbook is very helpful. I hope you find it helpful. I hope you found this presentation helpful. I do have a next step for you potentially. So we have a program, it's a digital program all online and it's called From Daydream to Launch. And it gives you more support as you start your business. We're gonna dig in deeper into all these things that we talked about today. And this is what we're saying about From Daydream to Launch. It's the proven roadmap to explore your idea and officially start your business. And it offers you the steps, tools and support and confidence to become the CEO of your own business. So this is a QR code if you're interested in learning more. Enrollment opens on January 18th and ends on the 28th. So again, that's the QR code to take you a lot of information about what's inside the course and what's included and it's a lot, great value. So I hope you explore it. And that's the same QR code there for Daydream to Launch but I'd love to open it up if there's anybody who has any questions, wants to share their business idea. Well, first Jill, I wanna say thanks because that is a ton of information and frankly, pretty scrappy information, right? To get started. And of course, if I had a bit on the microphone, you would hear me laughing about every little thing. I think that picture of you in the beginning in your first business with the lamp in your hand, I think I own that lamp and that pillow and probably that book too. Anyway, it's great information. And yeah, we're happy. So Michael had alluded to there being a lot of questions via social media. So let me check the chat to see if there's anything that's out there. I don't see anything that's posted yet. Okay, I love hearing about people's ideas too if they wanna talk about them. Absolutely, yeah. We have a few people inside the Zoom and if you're in the Zoom and you have a question you wanna ask because if you don't, I'm gonna ask questions. I always have questions prepared. But if you want to, you can jump on or you can message me in the chat and I will read it for you. No problem there. Let's read the chat. Okay, so I'll tell you what, while we're waiting on something from someone, I will ask them questions. I have a whole list of them. And a lot of times, Joe, when I ask the questions it's gonna really be about you because you have experiences in entrepreneur too. So your first side hustle was probably a side hustle in the beginning and turned into a full business. And I know that's probably, and that's a lot of times what happens with a side hustle is while we explore, whatever the reason is whether it's an interest or a passion or something we wanna monetize, we're always wondering how do we make it or how do we know when it's ready to become a full-time gig? What was your experience with that? So my experience actually is the opposite. It was a full-time gig and then I turned it to a side hustle. But I think that the best way to handle that is to kind of set yourself a specific goal. So for a lot of people it's when I start making as much money with my side hustle as I do with my day job then I will switch. I will say that does put a lot of pressure on yourself because in order to make as much money in your side hustle as your day job you are probably putting a lot of time into it. So what I would say, and that's perfectly fine if you wanna wait for that or other times other people start saving most of their day income or alternatively most of their side hustle income and they save that for a little nest egg that they can then draw from until their side hustle income now full business income is at the same level as their day job. So having yourself kind of a financial runway like that is really, really helpful. But I think basically what the indicator really that I would look for is are you seeing traction? Are you seeing people really interested in what you do? And expressing that interest with their pocket book, right? Like are they actually buying your stuff and are you making a profit? So it's not just making a profit are you making it up to pay yourself and still have some money to put into your business? So if you sell that candle that costs you $10 to make and you sell it for 15 that's not, that's great. Like that might be all you want, right? Is the easiest sale in the world is this fabulous candle for $15. People are like, heck yeah, I'm gonna buy that. But if you're really checking to see if it's going to be a full-time business you might need to raise that price because I don't know that you can really live on $5 a candle that you might be able to but that's a heck of a lot of candles. So you might wanna raise that price and see, okay, do I still have a lot of customer interest if I raise it up to 20? What else can I add into the mix? So that might be where you start planning of taking some of your other ideas for products or services and seeing what you think you would be able to make for that because once you start expanding into a full-time business you can add all kinds of other products and services probably better to add them one at a time but to supplement the income like you don't have to have it all on this one candle, right? But I think it's just this idea of how has your idea been received? Are people interested and willing to pay? Yeah, okay, good. I see some questions rolling in now so I think we'll drop over here. So Sam Blair from LinkedIn says, what's the best way to open a coffee shop? And I know that's a very broad answer but you probably do see a lot of entrepreneurs in your space that are in that brick and mortar space and there's probably something to be said about that. How does somebody, you know what kind of things go into something like that? Well, the best way to do it is to take somebody's somebody else to start the coffee shop and doesn't want to do it anymore and buy their business. That is the best way because they have all the equipment they have people are used to coming to that location for coffee. That's one of the things I think coffee shops, you know can even be just a couple of blocks apart and they'll attract their own vibe and their own clientele. But if people, there are some bad locations for coffee shops, you know they're just that where people aren't walking or there's not a good way to pull in as they're going to work. So that's definitely the best ways to buy something that already exists that the owner is just kind of ready to move on. Aside from that, you know financing is challenging for that kind of a business because it's been a relatively high setup cost you have to buy all the equipment to the fancy coffee machines and all of that you're going to have employees because you can't be there the entire time as the owner, you know all the health department rules and everything. So I think, you know what would it look like if it were simple might be a coffee cart, you know that you can take around, you know take to a festival or something like that. You know, I don't know it's not a perfect, what would it look like if it were simple way to do a coffee shop? I would absolutely 100% work at a coffee shop before you decide to open one. So just work there. Maybe that's your side hustle for a little while it's even though it's working for somebody else you want to experience what it is like whether you like it, you know all of it all the things that go with it, right you'll be sweeping the floor and you'll be making change and you'll be making coffee, right so all of it and as the owner that's what you're going to have to do so I definitely think that's a really, really important early step. Yeah, I agree. I mean, I helped many, many businesses that might, you know in my one-on-one consulting time period help a lot of people open coffee shops and it's a capital intensive business. So you have to understand the capital requirement there and it's not necessarily fundamentally any other any different than any other business it's just that some businesses require more capital than others. And more people Some require more IP than others, you know so there's a lot of things to understand and especially a brick-and-mortar a lot of local rules and regulations to pay attention to when it comes to that though. So we're going to move on to another question. Collaboration is always such a really great a really great opportunity, right so in the way in which, you know two people, you know if you have a business maybe like there's the hotel in Covington, right where if you can get your coffee shop in a place that people are already trafficking. Yeah, there's often that's a good place to kind of sneak into and not sneak into but collaborate with. Yeah, thanks Jasmine. That's a great idea. There's our convention center has a spot for a coffee shop that doesn't have one right now. So that would be a great opportunity to look for something like a situation like that smaller, you know you don't have to pay the whole rent it's just a rent of a small space. Yeah, absolutely. And you had mentioned a couple of different marketplaces Etsy being one of them there's there's hundreds of them if not thousands of them to consider but Michael Murray from LinkedIn asks you know, do I market products through your third party like Etsy? I mean, what are I guess the bigger question is are there what are advantages to Etsy? I know, you know there's some marketplaces that are made for certain types of industries as well. That's true. I think these are the talk about. So I would say there's a huge advantage starting out with using a third party platform one being that they are drawing all, you know they are spending tons of money to get people onto their website. You know, Etsy does a ton of advertising to pay per click and all of that. So you don't have to pay any of that. I mean, you have to pay some of it when they take the fee, right? But there's always going to be some kind of a fee associated with it. So don't get hung up on that piece.  So putting it on there, the other part of having in addition to having that third party platform bring people to there, it's a discovery platform. So people are going to find you who never would have found you and you never would have found them. They're going to find you on that platform. Now the downside is if you've ever been on Etsy as an example, it says, oh, you're looking at for this kind of a necklace pendant. Well, here's three others that you might like and they're from other sellers. So you're like, well, for gosh's sake, like Etsy itself is just stealing my customers right there. So the strategy in that case is to have and I will say it's not a side hustle without the hustle thing because you have to have a second platform or a second marketplace. But if you want to do that, you can build too. So start at Etsy and then build. So while you're on Etsy, all the marketing that you do is selling, sending people to your Etsy store, for example. What you would build to is having your own website where you also sell. So like a Shopify site or something like that. Keep your stuff on Etsy because of the discovery aspect of it, but all of your social media and your marketing goes to your website. So people who you never met are going to find you on Etsy and buy from you there, but all of your efforts are not bringing people to Etsy, they're bringing people to your own site. So that's a little farther down the road. I think it's safe to start just testing things out, right? Like again, like do people want the green jacket or the blue jacket? Put them both on Etsy and Etsy. Yeah, good. Yeah, and there's a lot of resources out there. In fact, one of the questions, Chris Clark on from Facebook says, I see you used the MailChimp for the workbook. I saw that as well. We talked about Etsy, we've talked about Shopify. What are some other programs or some software or any resource that could be helpful to streamline processes or sales? Or, and again, I think a lot of that is industry. It's an industry intelligent, really. Yes, that's true. But what are some other things that you've come across with some of your entrepreneurs that you've worked with? So for websites, Shopify is not a super customizable platform, but it is really, really good for e-commerce. So if you are focused on e-commerce, start with Shopify. However, the website that I really like to use, the website platform is Wix. So our website was built on Wix. I've built, I think maybe 15 or 16 websites on Wix. I find it extremely easy. Squarespace is similar, but I'm not familiar with it. I mean, I just don't have the experience, but it is similar. So they're all drag and drop, very, very easy. They have beautiful themes. There's even like a, Wix has a, probably Squarespace does too, has a thing where you can kind of type in a little bit about your business, and then it'll write all this copy with AI, putting me out of business if I still had my side hustle. And yeah, so Wix is great. Mailchimp is really great. Wix does have an email component to it that with their basic platform, monthly platform, which I think is $27 a month, you can send up to five emails a month. So not like, you know, Dear Nick, right? But like five emails to all the people that are registered to your, that have said, like I want to hear from you. So you could send out one a week and an extra one if you want to. I like Mailchimp just because I'm very familiar with it, but Wix is very serviceable as well. So I think those are great ways to get started. Facebook Marketplace is another great, easy, local, obviously marketplace. People trust it, you know, more than some other things like eBay is another potential one, but obviously it's not local, but there's some scammy stuff on eBay. So probably everywhere, right? I was thinking, if I could add to it, I was thinking, you know, there's a lot of, you mentioned kind of the, some sites will come with an email marketing type of a software and like a constant contact. Or something like that. Some will come with a database component. So you can use HubSpot and you can use Salesforce and you'd always use different things that are out there that it really is going to be defined based on, you know, who you're like, who you're reaching and how you're reaching them and how you want them to reach back to you. So, and then of course, if you have a tangible product, an e-commerce or whatever the case might be and how you pay, how that stuff is paid, transacted and inventory, there's all these little variables that go into it or really going to drive it. So, you know, for someone who's out there who's thinking about these things, that's probably a deeper conversation. There's a little bit of a research on your end and frankly asking around. I mean, ask people who you know who are in business or go to networking events. I think that's a large comparison. You can figure out a lot of information. You know, some people might call that a little bit of market research and that's a little bit of an intimidating term. So, you know, it's a little bit of an intimidating term but I think it's so true whether that's you're working at the coffee shop to gain experience and knowledge about opening a coffee shop. In fact, I have a story about that with a food truck but there's, you know, those kinds of things really, you can discover stuff you can't find on Google by just talking to other people who are in that space. So, the one thing I will say is I would, I would encourage you not to get, not to let the research about what platforms you're going to use prevent you from actually starting. It is such a deep rabbit hole that you could go down. I really encourage you to just do a little bit of research and then just make a decision. You can go back and change it later.  And you can always adjust in the military, we say adjust fire and change direction if you need to. So, one last question, we're going to move on to some closing announcements. So, William Buttman from LinkedIn, I know I didn't get to everybody's questions, I'm sorry. But William asks, what if you're selling a professional service versus a product? Because there is a distinguishing factor between a certain product. So, you know, one of the great things about that is that your cost, your startup costs are basically nothing, right? So that's great. I think for you, the most important thing is to deep dive into what problem you're solving for people. And again, like, okay, what problem am I solving? And then who has that problem? So those are the two things. And then the third piece, particularly for a service is what is the triggering event that makes somebody actually need to hire me?  Well, what's the thing that somebody's gonna need the triggering event? Well, their website went down and they hate it. It's overwhelming or they don't even have a website, right? So those are some triggering events. So what is, again, what problem are you solving? Who has that problem? And then why now? What is happening in their life right now that makes them need your services? And that is what your marketing talks about. Then just talk about that all day long. And people who are at that point who have that problem right then are gonna see you and thank the heavens that you're there for them. Yeah, and while we're a consumer economy, right? Whether that's buying products or what? Services are one of the largest areas of consumption. I mean, you have a service. It may seem like an alternate route when you think about, oh, I'm not selling a product. I'm selling an idea or my service. It's the same analysis. It's just a different targeted audience and it's a different reason, a different why. So yeah, great feedback. And Jill, of course, I wanna thank you and you and your team because you have more team members that are not here with us, but AVHFIS team, always happy to have them as part of our crew here at DAV Patriot Boot Camp. And as I told everybody in the beginning, I mean, while you're a Cincinnati-based asset, a Cincinnati-based program, there are other, I think it's important to note that there are other types of programs like yours across the country too that can help female entrepreneurs, veteran entrepreneurs. Like we're all about spreading that knowledge across our community. So thank you for being a part of our team and of course, thank you for being a mentor in our program as well. Absolutely. I know you get that. And I will say our daydream to launch program, although it's targeted toward women, the material is the same for everybody. So please don't feel that you have to be a woman too. Take advantage of that program. It's a great program and you'll everybody will benefit from it. Great, great. Also wanna throw out some special thanks to all of our attendees. Anyone who's registered, anyone who's on the Zoom, those of you out in Facebook and LinkedIn land, thank you all for attending. And also for those of you who are watching YouTube after the fact, we're always happy to have our community growing and growing and growing. And that's what it's about is spreading this knowledge. And before we part ways, I got a few announcements. Actually I have more than a few today. For those of you who are familiar with DAV Patriot Boot Camp, we still are accepting applications for our next cohort, which is in February 7th through 9th, and just next month, a few weeks away. So you can apply for that on our website, PatriotBootCamp.org. You also will see that our next program is launched on there as well. So if for some reason this one is full already, then you can apply to our May program, which is May 15th through 17th, 2024 also here in the Cincinnati area. So look for those. We're always on the lookout for more mentors like Jill. And if you have something you wanna share, something that you have to give back, we have an application process that's also on our website, PatriotBootCamp.org, visit us there. And also mark your calendars for our next Caffeine Connect, which is scheduled for March 14th. And we're gonna be meeting with an Army veteran, Kristen Sargent, with Sargent Initiatives, who works in the defense innovation sector. So she'll be teaching us on how to get started building a defense tech company. So that could be a pretty interesting one for many of you's out there. And then if you're interested in giving back the date, DAB Patriot Bootcamp, whether that's volunteerism, whether that's monetary, you can always connect with us, so shoot us an email or find us on our website, PatriotBootCamp.org. And lastly, we always want you to join us on social media on primarily Facebook and LinkedIn, but we're also on the gram at DAB Patriot Bootcamp. Please follow us there. Stay up to date with interesting things like Founder Friday, which we'll be posting a new Founder Friday tomorrow, where you can see who's gonna be next, who are we gonna highlight next. So with that, Jill, thank you again. Thank you everybody out there in the world of cyberspace. And until next time, activate, mentor, create, and grow.