and welcome to another episode of The Creative Life, a collaborative production between the American Creativity Association, Austin Global, and shown on Think Tech Hawaii. Today I'm pleased to introduce you to our guest, and I am Darlene Boyger host for today. And our guest is Dr. Manajeh Matagi, and Dr. Manajeh joins us from Los Angeles. And today we are going to talk about an experience that I know we all have had, and that is the experience of happiness, and why it's so difficult not to maintain those experiences. Thank you for being with us today. Perhaps a good place to start is to ask you what you feel is the true meaning of happiness. Thank you, Darlene, for having me. It's wonderful to be here. Just one little, small little correction. I'm not a psychotherapist because that would mean that I would be clinically clinical psychologists. I'm an organizational psychologist, which is really the realm of corporate and just really cognitive and behavioral psychologists to train people in any realm, but I'm not a clinical psychotherapist. I'm so glad you clarified that, of course, and I apologize for misinterpreting what I was learning about you. So thank you. Thank you. So what about this meaning of happiness that Joe moved in and out of at times? Yeah, so happiness is really a broad term, really. That means different things, and it includes a lot of different components. Also, usually just to name a few of these components, social connection, health and wellness, education, having material, having safety, having psychological peacefulness and joyfulness, and being recognized by others. So happiness is something that is really a feeling-based, and it depends on each individual how they experience it. You may feel it when you're in nature and then you lose it when somebody criticizes you. You may experience it when you buy something new, and then research shows that as soon as you are, you give the money, you got the material, you give the money, that's the highest sense of joy and happiness people feel, and right after that it goes down. It's a downward effect to that happiness. So it's very fleeting. It's not reliable when we base it on material and base it on having things, accomplishing things. People go to great lengths to become educated, have careers that are really incredibly high level or be in leadership positions or just accomplish so much. And then still their sense of contentment and happiness is not steady, is not reliable, is not for sure, is not guaranteed. And so we as humans, no matter how much advancement we've made, with human society has advanced a lot in science, in technology, in medicine, in psychology, in farming, in clothing, in you name it, I mean you name it, all these different facets that we have advanced. And yet we don't have our happiness figured out. We don't have it down. No matter how much we accumulate training, knowledge, material wealth, stuff, we don't have it down. So it's to me, I'm really, I'm one of the people who has gone, especially the American routes, to go and accomplish the highest you can. And you get the promise of you have the right to pursue happiness. It's interesting terminology to pursue, not to have, not to be happy but to pursue it. And so by the nature of pursuing, it's like you're always running after this thing that is ahead of you. And it almost seems that it's in your grasp. So basically it's just, I suppose, just a few steps ahead of you, where you think you're, or when you do feel happy, Dr. Matagi, it seems that you can go for a while with this happiness, this feeling of happiness or euphoria, perhaps that's a description of it. And then something happens that just seems to, as one would say, pull the rug up from under you, totally unexpected. And certainly her peaks and valleys, wouldn't you agree? Exactly, exactly. So, you know, even when everything is perfect, you have the best relationship, you have the best children, you have the best job, you have the best, you know, health, you have the best house, you have the best car, you have everything perfect the way you want it. Still, we cannot avoid a few things. We cannot avoid aging. We cannot avoid getting sick. We cannot avoid dying. We cannot avoid losing things that we love, people, things that we love. We can't avoid that. We cannot beat that. Nobody, the most genius people on earth, I mean, I remember when, who was it? Oh, my God, my mind just went blank. This owner of this tech company, I think it was Apple. His name is on the tip of my tongue. Anyway, when he had cancer, like this man, Steve Jobs, yes, Steve Jobs, sorry. So, when he, you know, he had access to the most and highest level of science, technology, the money, the everything, but he couldn't solve it. He couldn't solve this cancer. He had to die. And billions of people and beings died. So, this is the issue. And then we also another thing that we cannot avoid is cause and effect. Everything has every action has a reaction. Every thought has a imprint, leaves an imprint. So, when we don't sort of just segue into the problem with not getting happiness and having it and maintaining it or sustaining it is because we are not educated, not trained to be in alignment with these also natural systems, you know. So, there's so much out of our control. It seems that I hear you saying that there are these things that are completely out of our control, out of our control. And some of them are very obvious to us and some of us not sure we can prepare for them. They're unprepared and they take us by surprise. But there are other things in society and in the environment that are out of our control. So, when we are not educated and not really understand the some principles that govern our lives. For example, change transformation from this body that's like this right now. This body falls apart. This is just the natural thing that happens. It's not personal. It's not happening to me. It's not happening to you. It's not happening to anybody. It is the way it is and it happens to everything that is material and made out of elements. So, if we know this, then when loss happens, when somebody passes away, when we're not so dramatically shocked and intensely in grief and pain and depending on our relationship, like you know that I lost my son. And there is nothing. I mean, this kind of a loss is not to reckon with. There is nobody can handle this without an intense amount of sort of understanding and training and being in alignment with the laws of nature, the laws of the way things are.  We as humans have come to not like discomfort, negative. We don't like something that doesn't go our way. And we have sort of developed or created the concept of control. Control is not really, you know, doesn't really exist in nature. It's cause and effect. So, when we want to control something and we believe we can and we really do our best to do it and then something else happens and it does, it goes totally or whatever we did falls apart, then we become extremely, you know, bewildered, dissatisfied. And then we constantly, part of this happiness for us humans is also to constantly be able to control our conditions around us. There are some things we can, you know, and then there are some things we cannot. And so if when we learn to go with the with, to see, to understand the flow of things, then you, you know, you become, you become okay. You can have a sense of, you see, happiness is really an absence of suffering. If there was no irritation, no agitation, no judgment, no criticism, no envy, no when there is no, when these don't exist. And I'm not saying they should be done forever. No, but the moments that we don't have these kinds of feelings of tension, tightness, agitation, stress, anxiety, worry, when we don't have it in the absence of it, there is peacefulness. There is a sense of being okay, except we don't pay attention to it either. We don't see that. We don't see that I don't have a, I don't have a toothache right now. I only, I only want, you know, think about my teeth when I, when they hurt, right? You're very, you're very open, Dr. Mitaji, about sharing the loss of your son. Where did you turn for your strength? Was it an inner strength or who did you turn to? Oh, no, no, no inner strength there. No, look, I mean, when I, when he passed away, it was so sudden and so unexpected and so tragic that I, for 35 days, I fainted every day.  Couldn't handle it. For a whole year, I felt like I have a, you know, if I knew then felt like having COVID nonstop, nonstop for a whole year. So my, what I turned to was my training and education and practices of the Buddha's teachings. First, second, bringing them into my own experience and feeling them. And the key, the heart of it was self compassion, you know, when the tsunamis of grief would hit, when the pain would be unbearable. First thing that would hit me would be, oh my God, I will, I have no being ever, ever experienced this. I don't care who they are, how bad or good, it doesn't matter because this is unbearable. The second thing would be like, oh my God, this is painful. And I, I would feel my own pain, you know what I mean? That empathy, that compassion would be for myself. And, and the fact that I, why am I, I am, I shouldn't be obligated. You know what I mean? From the sense of I'm a mother, archaically mothers, you're done. You're done. When a child dies, I mean, I used to say those beginning days, I would say, whoa, what kind of a system is this?  The system is wrong. This universal system.  It's very cruel, you know, I would say that, but then, then I realize it's up to me, you know, that I am not obligated to suffer, to continue to suffer.   It's very difficult, you know. So little by little, with many different types of trainings, mental training, heart training, reality seeing, and understanding that, look, this happens. It doesn't happen to me. When I think of him as my son, I suffer. When I think of him as a human being who, a spirit, a soul, a, a essence that came into this body, I was privileged to, you know, bring the body into this world. And my mother was privileged to bring me, you know, for parents, we are, and so it's not my loss. It's not something I have lost. However, it's easy to say this now, you know, because during the grief, I, I recognize something very deeply. I understood this is not, this is not a bonding, a matter of bonding that's been broken. It's not a matter of psychological, emotional, anything. It's neurological. It's physiological. It's within every cell in my body. Every cell in my body has lost. That's why the pain is so, so intense. Every cell in my eyes, in my eyelashes, my hair, my bones, my nails, everything, you know what I mean by my blood, because he is part of this. And in your memory, too. And then the memories, oh, they are the most painful. Oh my God, pictures. I could not see his pictures. I could not have them around. For two years, we put pictures away. I, I couldn't see them. My, his father would send me videos of him. I couldn't watch them. I would die to watch them, you know. So little by little, by little, by really understanding how life works, having my own sense of this happiness we are after, that I wanted and I will have it. And I will not waver. I will not give up. I want my happiness. And, and it doesn't come from having all these things, you know, because happiness went from, you know, went into sort of the more material we have. It's not even a matter of convenience or comfort. It's a matter of luxury, matter of having access to more stuff, more wealth, more, you know, it will, if other people see me, they approve of me, then I'm happy. Then if other people think I'm okay, then I'm okay. You know, the pretense came about. And then, and then now it's gone so far that we are not happy with the way we look. Age, aging, we resist aging.  But, but just knowing that, that is not going to give us a sense of. That's right. It's not the same person we're looking in the mirror of since we're aging, all of a sudden it doesn't feel, doesn't feel like me when I look in the mirror. But the thing is, is also going to be, it's going to be done. No matter how much we fix it, it's not going to remain for a long time and time is passing and we are getting there. So it's just that we, we, we got it wrong. We did not get the right appropriacy. We human beings, we don't have a template. We don't come with a pre-programmed life of a human template. We are supposed to learn from our parents and people around us. This is how the brick. Are you saying then that we may be focusing on the wrong thing and seeking happiness is on our journey? A lot, a lot of times because we don't, we don't get it. We don't get the training for it necessarily accurately.  It comes with biases. Now the brain neuroscience shows that we come with truth bias, novelty bias and confirmation bias. So if somebody says something, especially as a child, we're growing up. Anybody who says anything, you take it as a truth. What do I know? I don't know anything. I'm going to take it as a truth. That becomes the basis for anything else that's going to confirm that. I will pay attention to that. I will confirm it because my brain, it's an efficiency process. Because the brain doesn't have the resources to go check everything and it doesn't have a template to check it against. The reality template doesn't know. So we believe things that are faulty, that are interpretations, that we are misunderstanding. We think they are true. And some things we learn that are effective. Some things we learn that are not effective. A lot of things we don't learn. Constantly trying to learn. See these podcasts or these things is supposed to teach something, right? Because we're constantly trying to learn the right way. I swear it's not easy to be a human. So we can't judge ourselves and judge anybody. Really, this is very important to know. We can't judge the people who are doing the wrong thing. Well, sometimes I suppose we focus too much on judging ourselves to see if we've done the right thing and maybe perhaps we should just move forward with a smile. Look, it's not easy to be a human. We have all these difficulties. That might be the problem. What are some of the greatest sources of happiness in your opinion or in the work you've done with clients? Have you identified some? Well, the thing is, I believe that if happiness is not something that can be sustained and we lose it, then we have the loss, the grief. So looking for something that's dependable. For example, having a peace, a sense of, I was talking to a colleague of mine, he was talking about equanimity. Equanimity is being steady, connected, being peaceful, being sort of at ease. So what makes you at ease? When you do something that has an outcome, the outcome, if the outcome has a negative, sort of a harmful outcome, you can't be peaceful. You can't be peaceful. When you take it from smallest thing, for example, a fly is flying by.  Well, how dare this fly in my domain? Nobody says, look, first of all, they don't live long. Second of all, they are very important to the environment.  They're just living their life. That's what they do. They're living their life. Fourthly, you don't have to be upset about it. You don't have to be irritated by it. You can somehow just get them to go another way or do something without the agony. Nobody tells us this. No, the first thing we do, kill the fly. So that kill the fly, I am justified. I feel justified that it is my right to live and be. This is my home, my walls, my windows. I know I paid for it. Every month I pay for this. This kind of mindset and excluding other forms of being, thinking that they shouldn't be. I often wonder if happiness levels are shaped by social groups and perhaps groups like families and people that are happier or we perceive as happier than are we, and that they're able to increase the happiness of the people around them. Might that be why we sometimes maybe subtly or not even directly thinking that we seek out people to do things with and to be around that make us feel happy and don't pull us down? Right. Well, of course, we are social beings. We cannot live alone. We don't live alone. Even if we think we are alone, we are not alone because everything we need, everything we have has provided by some other people, whether we see them or not. So we are social beings, we depend on each other. And we also need, yes, we also need this emotional attachment with people who are peaceful, who are safe, who are kind, who are compassionate. But that's hard to find for some people. It's not readily available. So this is what I'm talking about. When I'm talking about the fly, it has a direct impact on the attitude of a person you want to have peaceful conversation with. If a person is agitated, it's so easily over anything, right? Over anything. Like I had a client who was, you know, a high executive and he just, he was so irritated about everything, especially the wrongdoing of others.  I dropped it. At the time it was a different kind of telephone and I was hoping it doesn't break. But I dropped it. And then I asked him, so can you, when you get upset, you are going against this having happened.  Does that make sense? So this has already dropped. When you get upset, you're going against the moment that it dropped, hit the ground. And it's already happened. And you cannot undo it, undo this happened, having happened of it.   Why should I get upset? Instead of getting upset about this thing has happened. Now I can save the energy, save the peacefulness, not give it up. And then go after fixing it. Okay, now what is, because once you get upset about something, then the upsetness becomes the issue.  Then you want to relieve the upsetness. Now you forget about the issue that was, oh, this thing has fallen. Maybe I look, get it to pick it up and look at it. Is it broken? Do I need to do something with it or not? You know, but you're caught up in the upsetness. So this is where these are the things that are in the way of happiness. In order to be happy is not to go get something, is to take the obstacles away from your happiness. To understand how life works. To understand when we develop systems to create policies, procedures at corporate level, at government level. I mean, I'm tired of people coming to me all the time and complaining about the government, the government, the government, the government, you know, the oil companies, the corporations, the, just constantly, you know, blaming the system. Whereas the system is these people are one person at a time, human beings who are imperfect, who are also trying to be happy, who are also trying to do, do it right, whatever that means, you know. Whether it's do it right for more money in their pocket or do it right for social or do it, they are, they are even beings, human beings. We can't just keep blaming them. We need to look at ourselves and see what can I do right now today?  Because of this happiness business, we want more, we want more, and we want more, you know, we're thinking that's going to make us happy. Well, we want more too. We've come to the end of our time. And I feel like we have so much more that that we could say and discuss. I'm really grateful to you for making the time to be with us. And Dr. Maybe I can, maybe I can give a couple of things that we can be aware of. One is cultivating our own sense of awareness, awareness of our own feelings, our own thoughts, our own actions. Where are they leading? What impact will they have? Improving the intention behind whatever we do. The intention of not harming intention of having good will for all beings and intention of letting go, being generous, letting go of material, of judgment, of opinion, of anything. These three things can really improve our sense of well-being and happiness. Good, one in good will for everyone. Everyone, no matter what. Thinking about what am I doing that is going to harm, maybe I shouldn't do it. And then letting go. These three things are enough. I appreciate that you were able to share those three things. There are three simple things that I think we could leave our discussion and hold on to and try to put into practice in our life. So once again, I'm really glad that we had the opportunity to listen to you. And I think we're happy at this moment for having heard your words. We'll try to sustain ourselves and hold on to those words as well. And with that, to our viewers, I thank you for joining us to get today. You've been listening to the wisdom of Manhaji Matagi, Dr. Matagi. And with that, we look forward to seeing you again and also look forward to having our viewers join us again for the next episode of The Creative Life. And with that, Aloha. Please like us and click the subscribe button on YouTube and the follow button on Vimeo. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn, and donate to us at thinktecawaii.com. Mahalo.


Welcome to Toffy TV, it is the Everton News Daily. Pep Guardiola has said that Dominic Calvert-Lewin is one of the best jumpers and headers of the ball he's ever seen. Calvert-Lewin has scored Everton's only goal in the 3-1 defeat against Manchester City at the weekend. In a bit of a hot streak at the moment, four goals in his last three games for Everton. Obviously Pep Guardiola had signalled him off to being a danger at the weekend and he was the danger man. Obviously outjumping for Nandino and Otam Endia times and Everton probably could have used him a bit more, but that is good praise from Guardiola and praise that Calvert-Lewin should take and add to his growing confidence as being Everton's number nine. He has to put in more performances like he did at the weekend, he was a handful for City all afternoon, got himself on the score sheet, like I said, and getting in the right place at the right time. He got two against Sheffield Wednesday earlier in the week and added to that with another goal at the weekend, so hopefully he will carry on in that vein of form. Jerry Mina has been speaking about last season of frustrations and what got him through and why he feels as though he started the season really well. He's getting better and better each game at the moment Jerry. I thought he had an excellent game at the weekend and he said that Marco Silva kept him confident and involved last season when he was frustrated by injuries that haven't moved from Barcelona. He said that first the language was difficult and coming in through a new dressing room, new culture, but the manager and the players kept me involved and kept my confidence up and I feel at home now and I want to do as good as I can every single day forever. He said we need to stick together, it was disappointing to lose at the weekend but we have to stay united and who knows we could go on the next 10 to 15 games without conceding a goal. Would be amazing, but we need that confidence and he's right, we probably do all need to stick together, the players certainly do. We need some results, Saturday is a big game now against Burnley. Obviously Everton haven't lost four of the last five games. Isn't great, but they've got a roller-sleeves up now. Get to Burnley and get a win before that international break. Duncan Ferguson and Joe Royal will start the 5K if you know your history run, which takes place on Sunday the 13th of October. I'm sure you get involved. It would be great to have Everton's last trophy winning manager at the start and also Duncan, who is not only a first team coach, but also played the last time Everton won a trophy in 1995. It's a great way to open that race really. What a fantastic race it's going to be, or fantastic run it's going to be rather than race. Trying to raise money for the people's project of course in the community, fantastic charity. So make sure you get involved if you can. Get online, go and fill in the form and run or walk or jog, whatever you want, 5K, but two Everton legends opening that. David Underhead has been speaking about Anthony Evans, the Everton player scored a free kick in Friday's 2-2 draw with Manchester City at Hague Avenue. Evans has been in fine form for the 23s and Underhead says he feels almost certain the player will move on loan in January. He said he's performing at a high level and scoring goals and is on the radar of a lot of clubs. Evans went on loan to Blackpool last January. He's come back, obviously, the early part of the season. He's spent with Everton and I'm sure there'll be a few league clubs willing to take him in January and hopefully he can continue the next part of his development. Everton are reportedly considering a bid for under-17 Scottish defender Jamie Hamilton. He plays for Hamilton Academicals. He's played for Scotland under-19s. He's a centre-back, Norwich, Southampton and Wolves also monitoring the young defender but reports saying that Everton may make a bid to bring him to Gothersham Park in January. Who knows? And Everton are also monitoring Wiggum forward Joe Gelthardt. He's from Liverpool. He's reportedly the best player outside the Premier League, the best young player outside the Premier League. He's 17 years of age as well and Chelsea also heavily linked with him. Gelthardt made his debut last season for Wiggum and Everton are watching very closely. Of course Joe Royal, Peter Reid over at Wiggum as well so Everton have got some contacts over there but Gelthardt very, very highly rated. So another young player that Everton are looking to target and bring in. That is it for the news today. Make sure you give the video a thumbs up. Subscribe if you haven't and if you want more videos get over and join us on Patreon. See you later.


Get it going here floor is yours. Alrighty hello everybody and welcome to the hyper ledger technical steering committee Everybody is welcome to participate in this meeting so long as you abide by the antitrust policy And also that you are respectful of the other contributors and participants here As prescribed in our community code of conduct We've got a number of topics today and I think the largest ones are the project proposals and so what I'm hoping that we can accomplish today is get the bulk of the discussion Have the bulk of the discussion today and Look to dispositioning those projects at the next meeting after we've all had time to digest that feedback But to get things going I think we may have Jessica on the call Make sure looking to see if Jessica I can hear you want to give us the announcement for the marketing committee sure so New meeting here we're kicking off contributor and marketer marketing committee meetings These will be held the second Wednesday of every month the kickoff call will be Wednesday, September 11th at 9 a.m. Pacific I believe there was an invite that was sent out So the purpose of this call is really to discuss being around hyper ledger projects in the community So we think this will be a great opportunity for maintainers and contributors to learn how they can get involved in Specs of getting And we hope that you all can join some goals will be obviously to improve the communication between marketing and some technical leaders in the community And understand better how we can work together and you know better promote hyper ledgers public presence and marketing messages So really hope that as many of you who can possible I will be on the call as well as the marketing committee chair Dan O'Prey and Alyssa Whirly the vice chair So I hope to see you dial in Great, and will people find that on the community calendar? I believe so it's been Added to the The wiki and I think an invite went out from rye onto the TSC so I only sent that invite To you and it's on the community calendar So I did not send the invite to the TSC because I've gotten feedback. I should stop sending invites to mailing lists All right, well there you have it though it's up on the Calendar for anybody who wants to find that and join that new call. I think that's probably particularly important for The maintainers to show up to since a lot of the discussion is about how your projects are going to be marketed And this is an opportunity for you to get involved in that correct, and all right, thank you and then Moving from one maintainer topic to another we do have the maintainer summit scheduled for October of this year and I think that one of the best ways that we can make sure that we've got Good and broad attendance from the projects is if we have some outreach from those of us on the steering committee So I thought maybe what we could do for a few minutes here is run down the list of projects and see if we've got somebody from the TSC who can reach out to To each of those projects flip to the project page here Do we have Nathan on the call? He's here. He's here. All right. He might be thumb blend for his Mute button, but so sort of starting at the top alphabetically with Aries Nathan, yeah, yeah, would you be able to reach out to the the Aries maintainer community and see if they're able to attend in October? Absolutely. We've already been promoting it amongst the maintainers on the calls that we have Excellent. Thank you Silas, you're the natural choice for borough, of course Yeah, I will reach out to myself and other borough people would we'll try and get someone there Sort it out travel yet. Yes, we'll look into that. All right. Well, if you have any trouble reaching yourself, let me know TMI Caliper I Don't think that we've got a TSC member who is a caliper maintainer But mark you work fairly closely with them as the Performance and scale chair. Sure. I will reach out to them. Thank you Shelo How on today, yeah Not decided yet, but I think we should have some maintenance summits Great. So whatever you can do. I don't know if you have upcoming meetings With the rest of the cello team, but if you can make sure they're aware, that'd be great. We'll have to have We will skip over composer for now and Explored we have anybody who represents Explorer here. I think maybe not today. So Maybe I can take a note to circle back on that one Ben Chris Are no for fabric got a fairly large maintainer crew there Do you have a centralized way to like an upcoming meeting of Maintainers that you could discuss this in We just have one yesterday. So the next one is I think in two weeks. What do you I apologize? I was distracted by somebody but Yeah, yeah, there's no problem Chris. We will make sure the maintainers are aware We also have we can use the chat and we'll reinforce it on the next call Thanks, so all Hey, then I can also reach out to explore Thank you, that'd be great Yeah, so all of the maintainers for all the projects assuming they're subscribed to the maintainers list have received some kind of announcement But we know that Making sure that this is a topic at your maintainer meetings. If you have those or other Verbal or or more direct contact is a good way to make sure that we hear from everybody there Grid I think we've got Andy on Yep, I should probably know when the next grid Maintainer ish meeting is but if if you've got That You've got that in mind then if you can reach out to them It's obviously well located for a lot of those participants a lot of those. Yeah Yeah, I believe a lot of us are planning to show up great Nathan likewise on Indy, I know you're already on that You know, do we have anybody from you know, huh? okay, so I'll make a note to connect with them as well and Spoken with David on quilt recently I don't think he's on We are on the core, but we are not the PC members. Oh Great. Yeah So, yeah, we would very much Okay That's right, and I didn't put the link on this agenda to the the wiki page but maybe somebody else could drop that into chatter or put that on the page for me Dan is there a maximum number of people? The space I don't remember if the space allotted for 40 people and we've got 50 people subscribed to the maintainers list. So I think if we get a hundred percent attendance will be able to Get everybody in there I'm guessing that with no normal obstacles people have will you know be happy with with something More than 50 but less than a hundred percent. All right. Where were we? Okay, so quilt. We've already talked about them I'm happy to reach out on sawtooth and Transact Let's see here and that leaves Ursa we talked about this at our our bi-weekly meeting yesterday, but heart you can Help me keep that as a prior priority at our next meeting Definitely that Dan Middleton guy is always a problem, but I'll do my best You just got to shut him up sometimes All right. Well, I think that's all the projects at least all the ones that we've got listed on the wiki. So flip back to today's agenda All right So we've got about 45 minutes left so I don't know if we have somebody from the Proposers of Gardener up they would like to give a few minutes overview of your proposal If we can keep that to something on the order of like five ten minutes That'll still allow for some discussion before we need to move into the next topic Yeah, sure. So this is a king speaking I'm one of the the members of the gardener team And so, yeah, I can give like a high level overview On what's the background and then we also have Christoph who can then you know introduce I think the technical staffs more So, yeah gardener is a block general call was originally We're so our team is from SPO we developed well one of the parts of the of the business is to develop blockchain software and and kind of the reason why we did gardener is that We we found out that having a Oracle that secure and trustworthy is a problem with multiple blockchain projects and There weren't really like free and open source implementations available. So we decided to make our own and Yeah, that's why we're here. So, yeah, very nice to have a chat with you guys and Yeah, I think maybe yeah, Christoph is the right person to do the technical introduction. So I'll let him continue from here Hello, it's Christoph here. I'm I'm a developer working on Gardener so as I can all dimension gardener is an watching Oracle. So basically a software that allows to blockchain applications allows them to access external data so the business case is that we have Gardener smart contracts deployed Somewhere in the blockchain currently we do integrate with Ethereum only but garden is written in a way that allows to integrate different blockchains very easily So we have a gardener smart contract like somewhere in Ethereum a user comes into interaction with that smart contract and requests some data to be to be acquired Currently our our we have we have two main use cases implemented first use case is accessing data from an URL Data source. So say we have a smart contract that would like to use the current Bitcoin price Which is exposed via external or REST API What's in such use case what's users should do they should call Gardener and Gardener would Transfer that query from blockchain Offchain part of our application and that option part would query the rest interface and Retrieve data back back to the user. That's the first use case second use case that we have is generating a random number similar sorry genetic Rambo number on on blockchain is quite challenging because in order to provide a seat for a random Function you would need to use something that is also known to the miner. So this is obviously a security security vulnerability so with with with Oracle such as guy there does not the problem because we are doing this off chain and To provide security for our solution and we are also leveraging Well known everyone here, I think technology, you know called Intel SGX Which is essentially a trusted execution environment and the idea idea is that after we leverage All the features that Intel SGX has and users are going to be able to use use Gardener With the only third trusted party being Intel because After after we finish our SGX implementation, which is ongoing right now Users won't even have to trust the person that the entity that hold that hosts the off chain part of Gardener I don't know if you have enough time to like discuss technique technicalities of that I'm happy to answer more questions if there would be would be but basically after we leverage fully we are going to be We are going to be resistant to mining the middle attacks accepting off chain off chain part of Gardener and we are also going to be sending data to our users in an encrypted way Yeah, I think that's that's it for a very high level description. All right. Well, thanks for the high level From the TSC does anybody have questions that they would like answered from the proposers while we have them on the line here As well as some people are forming there.  I can't remember if I put it in the Gardener or the TCF proposal One of them mentioned You know the potential for overlap or certainly You know similar goals with the TCF project proposal. I think it's also under consideration It was submitted. I think last Friday And I think it would be worthwhile To and I know that there has been some initial Interaction between the two I'd like to sort of get a sense from both projects what they think about, you know, whether or not these things are, you know Complementary or somewhat overlapping and if they are somewhat overlapping what areas might they consider sort of pulling teasing out and creating sort of Be a separate sub project that could be collaborated on jointly Before we actually go through and do a consideration of creating new projects. I Think it would be worthwhile to at least have that conversation and it doesn't mean that it has to end up that You know, there's one project to rule them all or whatever. That's not what I'm necessarily suggesting I do think though that it'd be worthwhile to have that discussion Sooner rather than later Yeah Yeah, I can answer that maybe so yeah, we had a call yesterday with Eugene from the TCF Project and yeah, there's a lot of synergies here so Like I can say we don't have all our team here yet, but you know I would kind of from How I see is that there's a bit of overlap or there's overlap definitely in the in the trusted computation and many that Sorry the SGX technologies So that's an overlap definitely that we have So we're open to corporate in doesn't really make sense to you know replicate work in itself So far, there's some aspects of Gardner that are also I guess out of the scope of the TCF proposal Yeah, no, I Yeah, I'm sure that that's the case But you know, I think it'd be worthwhile to sort of have you know going in a better understanding about you know How you know what shape it might take to have you know the two projects be more if you will cross integrated then redundant Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Yeah, we definitely had a discussion with with Eugene yesterday about that We agreed that you know, we're gonna go like Neil the detail that's in next week, but so far. I mean I Think from our side, there's no no problem with like doing a cooperation. Let's say Yeah, wherever the overlap is You know, because I mean obviously the inter guys are the right people to do the let's say the standard SGX implementations, right, so Yeah, for where where that overlap is I think we're definitely more than happy to Get some of their knowledge in in and use their libraries and stuff, you know I have a similar overlap question in terms of Gardner on verifiable credentials The verifiable credential standard is a mechanism for signing data so that you can know that it came from an authoritative source When you validated inside of the system Do you guys have you investigated any similarities or overlap with the verifiable credentials spec and what you're doing in terms of an Oracle? No, not really, but from the way that you describe it Certainly that could be an interesting thing to get look at Nathan if you wouldn't mind dropping a link into the comments proposal that would be good This is this is Silas. I very much agree with what Chris is saying there. In fact, I Introduced a akin to Eugene earlier last week. I think it would make a lot of sense for them to talk The thing that I like about the garden the proposal and if you go and look at the code Plus one for it being written in TypeScript as well is it's clearly quite a practical implementation that has been extracted from real usage So from the borough projects We'd certainly be interested given that they're The contracts I have written for the the termination contract for the Oracle are currently in city And I think they're going by a ganache to deploy them It would be very interesting for us if Gardner came in or even if it didn't To look at Integrating there. So the kind of thing that you can do with this aside from so getting a true random Oracle has all sorts of uses forgetting actual entropy on on the chain but the other thing that we'd like to do is have a smart contract that can say I'd like you to go and send an API call and then have it report back and The system they built for that looks very practical and Would work today. I think the TCF in some ways has a broader scope particularly with its focus on privacy and Yeah, I think like Chris says I think there's a possibility here that there could be Project merging, but I don't think that Should necessarily be the end game, but it would seem a shame to to rush ahead too much before You could fully explore those avenues, but I would say that the look of Gardner to me. It is a fairly well-defined looking piece and You know, it's working software that you can run now the TCF has elements of a sort of broader scope and some Elements of a specification in there I think Yeah, we will be hearing from TCF next week There wasn't room on the agenda this week to hear from them, but I see about half of you have looked at the proposal Yeah, we had a I can yeah, we had a definite a discussion about If we can from Gardner site work together on specification and and any kind of other things with TCF for sure, so Yeah, yeah, I guess we'll be also from our side updating on the let's say, you know division and Rules of those kind of things later then Yeah So follow up on they can comment and I'm not clear from reading the proposal here whether Gardner supports a decentralized Oracle deployment You know similar to to indie and verifiable credential where a network of nodes may work together to Provide that service instead of just one server and a bunch of clients So are you meaning like in terms of like, let's say off-chain Oracle verification that's then relate to the smart contract itself or like Right, so so it would run it would run and set up a centralized server. It would run as as a decentralized network of Pnodes or applied nodes That would go through some kind of consensus via smart contact to Vote on a piece of data that to be part of the Oracle No, it just just I thought I just wonder if you guys have thought about that and how would that how would that work? Yeah, so for the like the decentralized Oracle part Yeah, that's you know, that's like one way is to have like a smart contract where you have let's say multiple Signatories and then you you know from the consensus that they they give on the data input You kind of say let's say if the majority at least is whatever the value is that becomes the truth then So that's one way and there's another like coming from the ethereum community There's a bunch of like nice proposals on having a decentralized Off-chain Oracle where the consensus would basically be relayed to a a kind of a ring signature Off-chain and then the results of that would be then kind of stored as the consensus achieved off-chain to the to the smart contract so that's like a like on a more advanced level but Like for us having a a smart contract where there would be let's say multiple nodes accessing the data relaying the information the smart contract and having a logic where Based on whatever, you know, it can be weighted average or like weighted majority or just a pure majority. Let's say and then then giving a decision on the validity of the data based on that that's Something that we can do and it's not a very complex implementation. Let's say if there's a need so this is about so for Oracle, I think the security is Is a very important point so within this gardener the one major component is the smart contract and Do you have special consideration? for the smart contract in terms of the security Were you on mute? No I think from our side we don't have basically Christof Adrovich who's the who's the guy who actually wrote the the initial implementation Of gardener and the the smart contract all the libraries there So at this point What we could do is we let's say I write this down and I can post this information You know on the card in our let's say comment section or something But I think would be best if this question would be answered by him If that's okay And and and considering the all I put the TCF work, do you guys think it's acceptable to Be combined with the TCF into one single project So I think we we covered that a bit A little earlier So there's probably a few options on the table and we'll look to the TCF and gardener Proposers to continue that discussion before we meet again Next week Okay Is it also worth looking Linux foundation just formed a new group project To deal with the work in this space, right? Forget the name of it, but I don't know if some of the companies on the call are involved in that. I'm thinking they are The confidential computation consulting Or something like that That's the interromance if you already know about it So I I just don't know how that will play in with some of these current proposals If we want to figure the relationship there out, I know red hats contributing some code to it, I think so All right, this is yeah, I don't think we would want to gate any of any of our project proposals based on that That other effort that effort I don't want to mischaracterize it because it's very early, but it's it's more Instructure focused Yeah, and this is Brian. I and there isn't anything blockchain specific yet in that project over there But certainly there's a lot of familiar names. And so I feel like there'll be a lot of implicit coordination Anyways between between these kinds of things Okay, so uh, I think we've got a couple questions that we'll be looking for some some additional feedback on around next week and so Uh, Ben, I think you had one that if you wouldn't mind dropping that into the comments thread In the gardener proposal that'll help us be sure to track that and make sure that we get you an answer And we'll also be hearing from TCF next week and and hopefully we'll have A good resolution of that aspect of the questions Any final uh questions for the proposers before we switch topics Okay, well, thanks for uh joining our meeting and helping us discuss this one thing I may have I should have mentioned earlier on as there are there's some discussion that goes on during our verbal Uh discussion here on the tsc channel of chat dot hyper ledger dot org Uh, it's sometimes a little difficult to try to monitor both things simultaneously But after the fact you might want to go check out that channel Uh, I see one thing there Now that I mentioned it from heart We're hard to asking about Contributor diversity and some of the challenges that are faced by projects that they only have a single company behind them So you also want to think about contributor recruitment But of course being part of The hyper ledger family here is one of the things is that we all try to Work on that and there's some best practices that The uh that the community can offer Okay, uh Switching back to the agenda Our next thing is the Bezu proposal Do we have anybody on from? From that proposal who could give us an overview Hi Dan and everyone. Uh, this is very partly from the Pegasus team on the strategy not being here Before I give a brief overview We have quite a few people on our team that you might see in the participant list that I Introduced um, so first from the Pegasus side. We have Dan Hayman is a Program director B. Dan McCulloch, who is on the strategy operations team with me We have two of our blockchain protocol mirrors Dan O'Farran and Mary up here on the line and then from the consensus side We have Jeremy Moore and Jim Jabotowski um Giving a quick overview on the proposal here and we're proposing to say Uh, we are proposing to submit our ethereum client Sampian or what will be called hyper ledger base Uh, there are pantheon is our open source client developed under via q2 license written in java We developed it from scratch launched it last year at devcon Some of the enterprise features that we've launched uh as the par one that overlaps February and then in the releases, uh over the last months include permissioning privacy and our consensus algorithm ibsp too Does anyone else from right want to give? Add anything to what i've said Then I guess we can open it up for discussion All right. Well, thanks for for joining us and giving us that intro. There's already Pretty extensive thread on the tsc mailing list that i'm sure a lot of us um, uh have tracked And hopefully if others on the tsc have not tracked that thread you can go check it out after our discussion here Uh, I'm assuming though that there's still some some questions that we can handle live here today So now's a good time if any of you on the tsc Would like to get some clarifications I just wanted to say that I was excited to see such in-depth discussion And it shows how serious people are taking this proposal Yes, thanks grace and all for and dan for Answering all the questions and you know being very responsive about this So I guess Go ahead, nathan I would also say consensus has been excellent in collaboration across the decentralized identity space We've had really good experiences working with them both at the w3c And at diff and elsewhere where we've been working on standards for aries and indy And I would be really excited to see their increased collaboration across the other hyper ledger projects through This proposal and the things that will come out of it Yeah, I think that's a good lead into one Uh one topic that I'd like to discuss a bit Which is in that vein of of good collaboration we've I think we've all had different experiences with with projects within hyper ledger where What we see more recently I think is is a good collaborative spirit across projects where we started out with a lot of individualized projects that that sort of operated only within their own sphere And I think there's limitations for any project that Would want to behave in that way in this day and age and so I think it's really important to consider what The objectives are for the proposers as they're bringing this project in It would be a very reasonable expectation for you to be thinking all right. Well now we can operate this project as we have been operating it Really without regard to other things in hyper ledger, but now we've got Maybe some hyper ledger infrastructure and governance around it, but otherwise it's going to be business as usual I think that'd be a very reasonable expectation, but it's not one that that I think would be in anybody's best interest Whereas I think if you're bringing the project in with with an interest in More of a collaborative process with the other hyper ledger projects. I think that is going to be More conducive to everybody's success. You know that is This is jim jigelski with consensus that is certainly our goal our goal is to Grow the contributor list grow collaboration Be an engaged participant not only in in this project But in everything that the hyper ledger is is is doing That's great to hear. I noticed one comment I don't remember if it was in the wiki or or on the thread about the The size of the contributor population from consensus That's sort of a catch 22 Any project that's that well resourced is going to be in a very good position for success but then you also have Perception at least to work through that That community is really Led and exclusive to a single company That's a very Valid point and it's one that we take seriously obviously A large part of what we'll be doing at the very beginning is And continuing to do is doing everything we can to disrupt and dislodge that perception We realize that any kind of open source project, especially if it's one Which is basically under a single company Isn't really a community based project and it's very very important for us to have a base who Be a true community project And we consider our Our go-to statements at the beginning To to help steward things along but also to encourage outside and external contributions As much as possible. We realize that's the only really Way of making sure that this is successful not only for the individual project It's something which is you know part and parcel with being a hyper ledger project so thinking about um so I understand that the desire there to uh to broaden the scope of your contributor base and and Interoperate in general, but in terms of this actually happening and the inertia of groups, particularly a coherent group large well resourced group like pegasus um In terms of your incentives, can you think of some uh particular projects or features or What would really drive maybe from a business perspective integration with an existing hyper ledger project? What would be a good place to start? Uh to find a strong incentive not just the feelings um For pantheon for basu to integrate with Yeah Hey silas, this is dan here and thanks for the question Also, thanks again for meeting last week. Good to see you So we've put a lot of thought into this on our side and sort of we've divided things up and sort of what we could see happening short term medium term and long term In the short term, I think sort of the low hanging fruit is Around some of the in dropping cross-ledged communication happening at layer two So we're already actively working with the webspj lab team who are adding Support for fabric and the truffle team who are doing the same So that's that feels like it presents a lot of opportunities to sort of drive deeper collaboration where you could Especially use the same calls we're saying environments to work across the theory and the fabric Protocols we've heard derive a common tool set a common experience for developers is to start started that higher level um In in the medium term, I think we're particularly interested in interoperability interoperability between chains We have an increasing effort in that direction and From everything we've heard in hyper ledger. That's also the case for a lot of the other projects And so being able to work together frisk We had a chat about this sort of being able to work together understand what's feasible understand what aligns with roadmaps sort of coordinate because it takes two to tango on all these interoperability efforts obviously Silas we had a long conversation about different opportunities for borrow and face to to work together another one that sort of that fits in that medium term bucket is looking towards Quilt and its implementation of the interledger protocol is a collaboration around there It's actually this jvm base probably also will make that easier. So None of those are definitive. Here's the business value per se But we have really strong confidence that there's a number of things that will make both things to and other projects Hyper ledger more robust than we can together So now we can leave some of our users and customers down. So mentioning the the the jvm One of the the big wins I think from the borough project was the interest in the other frameworks at hyper ledger to integrate with the evm If you know since since there already is evm integration With borough for those. I don't know What the interest level would be for integrating a second evm But can you talk through some of what you see are advantages or obstacles in the language selection for bezu and the the languages that are prominent in the other frameworks and maybe also considerations in trans act for facilitating future work Uh, sure. So I can start with this one and then maybe meredith or dano or actual maintainers of the project It's not self-evident to me that there's any advantage or obstacle per se in sort of using bezu as an evm Over borough borough is a great evm. If that's the goal. There's already that in place What bezu brings is a you know, a suite of extra alternative Functions that can enable certain interaction either with d3 community at large or just different approaches to blocking protocols from what's already So I wouldn't I wouldn't see us as an alternative evm or for the replacement to borough and that part at all That's not how we think of ourselves in the conversations with silas You know, there's lots of work that borough and bezu can do together to leverage the relative strengths that we we all have In terms of languages I'll sort of hand that over to dano and meredith probably to speak a little bit more But my view is you know, there's common interfaces on how if you're in clients Connect so those interfaces can be exposed and Enables the collaboration across languages java obviously comes with this sort of constraints for deeper integration But we there's a bunch of jbm-based projects That we're already working with and looking to work with We see we see lots of advantages for being This is dano faran. I'm one of the blockchain protocol engineers Um, one of the advantages I see with java is it can integrate just about anything A lot of the enterprise frameworks of java SDK So if you want to take Beisu and do some modifications so you can access your back end systems that have a java api It's going to be really easy. It can also integrate on a native level with any other language So I don't view this as a barrier. It's not like using java It's going to prohibit you from integrating your go code that integrates your back end systems Um, but when it comes to interop between processes and systems typically It's done at a higher level than the in the raw process. You're going to use things like json rpc and other communication mechanisms all of which basic Pantheon or what would become basic currently support So I don't really view the the use of java as a barrier And as far as growing the community to show a diverse set of languages that are available for the various hyper ledger projects Have been some in java I think would bring in some collaborators that otherwise May not consider hyper ledger as a place to do their open source contributions on on the point that dan made secondarily about transact so transact is a smart contract execution framework that has been spun out of sawtooth and is now a top-level project So what they have there currently is a wasm back end onto sabre Which again is is an extracted from sawtooth uh, I can't remember from our conversation Is e wasm in scope for pantheon bezu or is that part of a separate aetherium 2 project? If it was in scope, uh, then in terms of there being a an integration hook There might be something around Making some transact work against an e wasm back end So I've been to some of the meetings where they discussed integration with your theory in 1.x and e wasm Currently you asm doesn't have a committed final version It's not sure if it's going to make it an aetherium 1.x Which is what the proposal for hyper ledger bezu has right now or 2x which pegasus is committed to working on We already have a beacon chain client that we're working on Artemis so but if e wasm becomes a part of the The aetherium ecosystem, it's definitely going to be high on our target list Whether we do a jvm based implementation of it or whether we integrate natively with a native e wasm As a decision that has been made and quite frankly, we're going to pick the one that works best in that regard. So um, it's I think that there's lots of opportunities still available there, but the e wasm is not Um, solidly landed in a final form anywhere. Unfortunately, it's great technology though Hey, dana, let me just pick up on that while it doesn't directly relate. Sorry. This is Jeremy Miller from consensus Well, it doesn't directly relate to the to the to the basu proposal um, we think having a There is presumably value to the hyper ledger community to having um A project that's sponsored by one of the major drivers of e2 to provide insight direction Etc around that framework, you know For those not familiar with e2 and the direction is taking, you know, we there is enormous opportunities to do multiple execution environments In in e2 which will allow for all sorts of novel forms of cross-chain integration that aren't possible today so You know a tursh and a positive externality of the basu proposal I think is a Is a is an ability to look at how e2 will shape product roadmaps and and project roadmaps For that upcoming architecture Thank you, Jeremy. I do see that being a pretty beneficial thing Ben, I don't know if you had a question or not. Otherwise, we will probably have to start winding up here And if somebody can pick me on chat if they're here from the twgc That'll also help us know if we need to manage time for your update I I have a question in the comments Already, so, you know, how folks can look at and can point me to the Right place, but You know in in general, I I feel we are still very early on in the development of blockchain technology Uh, you know comparison to the the web technology. I feel like today We are at the cti In the early days of of the web like in the late 90s Because for me spend the last Couple of years trying to develop an enterprise blockchain application on on Blockchain the platform It doesn't feel right. You know, it hasn't feel right and because of that We we are lacking up something And my my searches for those who are saying that they are supporting enterprise blockchain Or and call himself as enterprise blockchain What are the features that are the differentiators? That that you would say that you push the envelopes here to help the enterprise developers Making use of blockchain technologies Easier or better So that's what I'm hunting for and and to be full this closer. I work on hyper ledger fabric Um, and you know, they are they are certainly plenty of functions and features in in fabric and and and still Is it's not there, right? You know the fabric is not there in in in my mind Um, so so I'm looking at uh, you know ratio as a a new project and new commerce Uh in the enterprise space and because of that I'm expecting Uh, some differentiators Some very innovative differentiators and I've had the documents that haven't been able to To to fight any so I might have missed something there Now, so that's that's part of my question and and my comments and if someone could jam me in and and And set some light on that would be would be helpful Okay, thanks. So we'll I guess we'll look to the question in the wiki for the response to that one And we've got about seven or eight minutes left here just just briefly. Um, I sent this email quite late, but bin Be be very interested to get your response to my last email on the bezu thread. So for me a huge um feature is uh integration with mainnet and I've tried to to give some examples and make an argument for that there Um, so perhaps you could take a look at that as well Great. Thanks. Well, we'll do Okay, and I think that's a great point. Um from our side I think we took a first pass at kind of discussing the different features that we think are innovative um, maybe it's a different kind of take on Um permissioning and and uh, how we created privacy groups. Um, and our consensus algorithm i b f t Two are just a few examples in in our head that make us innovative. I'd be curious if um To get a little more feedback on exactly what you have in mind as well as mainnet compatible Okay, thanks for that. Uh, so we're down to the last few minutes here and we've got uh, two other groups that are here for updates So thanks to all of the bezu proposers for for joining us on the call and we'll we'll continue this discussion On the wiki and the mail list and then bringing up again on next thursday So moving on to Andy gunderson and the grid update Looks like we've got a little over 50 of tsc members having taken a look at that Andy in About a minute or so. Do you have any things that you'd like to highlight particularly? Issues that you want resolution or assistance from the tsc Uh, no issues currently. Um before in our previous update We had talked about how we were trying to figure out how to essentially run sprints with the mix of different companies that we have Working, um, and we did end up deciding on using hyper ledger giro, which is working quite well for us right now so that's That's great And then I also just wanted to highlight the fact that we have added More to our governance including a gs1 sub team which includes members from both target and gs1 All right. Thanks, andy questions from the community Just a comment. I think the performance and scale working group will probably work out to your gs1 sub team Reach out to your gs1 sub team at some point in the near future As we continue to make progress in defining metrics And make sure on the same page so we can help develop benchmark tools around that area Cool Yeah, I think it'd be great to see performance feedback on at the use case level from From a group like grid Certainly something that that the performance and scale work group has been looking for for a while now Okay, uh, if other people have questions after the fact you can always add them into the comments of the update in the wiki and for those members who have not Read through the report. Please go ahead and get to that as soon as you can Our last agenda topic is the technical working group china update. I do not have the link for that in the In the agenda, so if somebody wants to drop that oh somebody already dropped that in the chat. Thank you about what Sure Yeah, um, here's j. I'll give a real quick update So overall the working group is pretty active and we have around 40 attendees per each by weekly meeting and we have One issue basically we're translating fabric docs and we have some problem with the pipeline and get Get a pre-pulls and we reach out to the fabric maintainer group And I think the matter will be solved once fabric has been moved to get up We might leverage some of the infrastructure there We are experimenting trans effects for translators and getting a better user experience overall So that might set up an example for other projects, which If they want to translate docs to other languages another Not exactly issue, but we did host Six meetups in the last quarter Also one online meetup And I know there has been a long-standing issue in China that The other presence of the presence of other projects out in the fabric are fairly low And we did invite some developers from I think Britain to give an online meetup and we had around 50 attendees online So this kind of opens the door to other projects So I just want to cascade this information if you want to host a meetup Virtual meetup in China. We're happy to host a online webinar for you So just reach out to see if you see a channel or a mailing list and we will take care of it and Other than that We are I think we're pretty good on track And we'll keep hosting meetups in the following quarters and We are we're trying to mentor Some local developers to propose their projects and trying to connect the Then to an existing project in hyperledger such as shallow And yeah any questions I like the idea of online meetups. That sounds interesting Sure, just be Be aware there might still be There still be a language barrier. So I would suggest to prepare Slides with some more information so people can read afterwards and we actually have Folks from Britain, but they can speak very little Chinese which Kind of make just make webinar a bit more friendlier But yeah, we can sort of details just reach out to me and we can look into it you All right That's very nice And I think that brings us to the end of our time together here Thanks for everybody's participation and We will look forward to talking again time next week Joe Sorry everyone Bye