Hi everyone, I'm Sonia Trivedi, communications manager at Moodle and today we are at Moodle Mood Global 2023. I met very interesting speakers, community members and etech enthusiasts, and today in the morning I had the pleasure to attend the session of Arakhad Jodoshelieva, Team Leader Quality Learning Ecosystems Program from UNESCO Institute for Lifelong Learning. Hi Arakhad, how are you doing today? Very good, thank you so much. Perfect, is it your first Moodle Mood? Yes, this is my first Moodle Mood and it is a pleasure to be here to be honest here. Welcome, very nice to see you today. Today you had a keynote speech on lifelong learning, past, present and future. Lifelong learning is really vast concept. Can you please unpack it a bit for our viewers? Starting with the definition might be nice. Okay, during my presentation I highlighted a little bit about the evolution of the concept of Lifelong Learning, which started with a 1972 report by UNESCO and it was called Learning to be. And in that Lifelong Education was considered to be one of the main master concepts to propose a different type of education systems for the societies and the historical context of the 1970s and 1980s. And if I want to highlight the concept itself, it was about how education systems should go beyond basic education and capture learning and education that's happening prior to schooling, but also while learning in different kind of spaces such as homes and workplaces and capture also adults who are not necessarily enrolled in higher education. So it was a very vast concept. The concept was supposed to support the policymakers in designing new educational systems and education system policies as well. And fast forward to today, Lifelong Learning is considered as one of the main overarching principle of organizing learning and education and training for the member states of UNESCO, but also for many other organizations and education providers. It encompasses learning throughout one's life that captures from early childhood until the elderly people's learning after their retirement as well, but also it captures learning that happens in the formal education settings, non-formal educational training programs, but also informal learning that individuals' learners are engaged in. I want to highlight also that it's about life-wide education or learning, which means that learning about different other matters or skills and developing competencies in the areas which are not necessarily just for employment. Great. Really interesting. I really enjoyed your presentation today. And you kind of answered my second question, which is more about past, present and future. How did the concept evolve over time? But you mentioned that you have researched that for quite some time, right? Well, UNESCO has been working in the area of Lifelong Education from the conceptual perspective. And since the adoption of sustainable development goals in 2015 for the next 15 years until 2030, the concept has evolved and that evolution of the concept is now reflected in the goal on education. Before it was education, the right to education was limited mostly to the basic formal education or school vocational training or higher education. In this educational goal of the SDG, it highlights the creating the opportunities for lifelong learning for all. So if I want to highlight one more matter here, it's about at the moment UNESCO is really contributing to the articulation of this concept in the policies, practices and initiatives, as well as contributing in terms of knowledge base in the area of lifelong learning. So we are currently working with member states but also the stakeholders which provide a lifelong learning opportunities for many different social groups as well as communities, starting from learning to design such policy, come up with the laws, legal frameworks for that, understanding how governance of such learning systems can actually happen and what kind of finances funding are necessary to put into it. Okay, and why is the concept important now and in the future? Well, I think during my presentation I highlighted the even when the forest report in 1972 was published, the lifelong learning as a concept was introduced to respond to the challenges of that time and also to the challenges which were about to come as well. So in the current context we have a lot of global challenges. We are living in the context of climate crisis that has an enormous impact on educational systems and learning opportunities as well. And at the same time we have other issues such as the digitization of our society, our economy as well as workplaces and educational systems. And technologies development is so fast. More advanced technologies are being adopted in the education system. For that we need to continue learning all the time because otherwise I think it will be difficult for individuals to catch up to be honest with the advancement that are happening in the world. Thirdly I think an important issue is around also the population growth on one hand but on the other hand ageing societies as well. Lifelong learning currently is also considered as one of the important concepts in which in some parts of the world when youth, children are not getting access to basic education, they have to have a second chance to learn. So member states have to actually contribute to the creation of these opportunities for those who didn't have chances at the age when they were supposed to go to schools. At the same time as I said workplaces are changing. The demands for different kind of skills are changing and that requires also learning all the time about different kind of tools and attitudes to be developed, values to be developed and competence to be developed. For the countries which has elderly or ageing population the importance of life and learning is not just for employment purposes. It's also about contributing to active ageing as well so that active healthy ageing of their population too. So in general I think it is required for many other reasons and Lifelong Learning as I said the master concept can contribute to our efforts to make learning as accessible, affordable, quality and for all. Absolutely I totally agree with you. Going back to UNESCO's work in the area you mentioned to me that you have a very interesting Lifelong Learning Initiative going on. Would you like to share more about it? We started using online platform for our capacity building efforts. During COVID time as you know that majority of us were in the lockdown and we couldn't really reach out and continue our work as business as usual. So we had to identify opportunities and tools that helps us to continue working in the area of capacity building for our member states on Lifelong Learning. So we came up with a training platform that is being tested in 2021. Very recently we launched it officially as well which helps us to continue our capacity building using digital tools and strengthening the opportunities or the creation of opportunities for those who may not necessarily have either time or means to attend the face to face training. In addition to that we are also increasing this option for multilingual training for the policy makers and the practitioners and providers because digital tools in the current context, some of these definitely allows to expand such learning opportunities. And I think our platform which is based on model as well has been tested and is being tested at the moment as well. We are organizing different kind of modalities of training starting from self-learning to community of practice to instruct alert courses which are long term and then we have also short term workshops as well. So this is one of the great examples that we actually can refer to now open access platforms such as model could contribute to outreach of the capacity of the institute such as ours in terms of meeting our goals as well as contributing to sustainable development goals in general. Great and I guess people can learn more about it on your website. Yes, if anyone is interested please I would encourage you to visit our website UNESCO Institute for Lifelong Learning and I just want to take this opportunity also to invite all of you to participate in our campaign which is called I am hashtag I am a lifelong learner and by telling us about why do you think you are a lifelong learner. Brilliant I'm sure people who are watching right now would be willing to participate but coming back to our interview I have a little bit more to ask you if you don't mind one important point that came to me during your presentation is the role of educators as lifelong learners. Could you please elaborate a bit more about it how is it involving. Yes educators who are mean people who contribute enormously to the process of learning as well as teaching and education. They need to become themselves as lifelong learners because of many reasons and one of the main reasons I want to highlight is that there is a technology development and the application of these technologies in education and this requires educators to be up to date about such developments and also become more critical users of tools and creative users of such tools but also creative actors they have to engage with these tools as agents active agents not passive recipients and I think educators role also is changing because of the democratization of knowledge as well before educators role was more authoritative because they had all the knowledge with themselves and the learners were expected to actually rely on their knowledge which teachers and textbooks had in the current context it is with one click the learner can access some of this information very easily so the role of the educators is changing now from having all this knowledge and supporting the having all this information at hand and providing that to the learners now becoming more facilitators of the learning process as well and at the same time I want to highlight that despite the fact that we see a lot of benefits of technologies used in education we need to be aware that educators role will remain as an important people in the process of education as well as learning why because we need to consider technology is not a silver bullet is not going to solve this problems all the problems and in addition to technology we need human interaction and educators are the ones who are going to provide such support for the learners who require such facilitation as well as help in their process of learning as well and I think last I want to highlight is that technological tools of different types should be available for teachers and of course with quality relevance as well as accessible because of the importance of these tools to support the work of the teachers rather than limit their teaching role I think we are looking at the technology as a complementary means and tools rather than the placement of the teachers from the education process Absolutely, lastly I want to ask you to take a brief look into the future and if you can share your perspective and also the vision of the institute about lifelong learning so how do you see lifelong learning moving in the next years? Well we are still, I must say we are still in the process of development of lifelong learning in concrete terms we are currently working in the area of recognition validation of accreditation of learning for example which is still at the initial stage of understanding and having some examples, concrete examples for the stakeholders to use I think lifelong learning as we promote as learning anytime, anywhere irrespective of age and social class and the languages and many other social and individual factors and being available through different modalities like formal training and non-formal education and informal learning then we need to capture all of this by developing further lifelong learning in terms of different tools, different understandings, critiques as well and also developing different versions of lifelong learning from let's say from the perspective of social benefits of lifelong learning and in terms of what I said the economics of lifelong learning financial part of the lifelong learning systems development and also from the perspective of educators as well who are those educators who are going to support such a process of lifelong in addition to that lifelong learning is happening in many places which we need to capture as well and I think these capturing is required by the researchers as well those who are providing such services and generating cases which are working well for some of the groups and testing them out and scaling it is still one of the main challenges of lifelong learning, I think Thank you very much Rakhat I learned so much from you today so thank you for your time not surprisingly lifelong learning is a theme of this conference as well so your participation was really valued I wish you all the best here at Moodo Mood and all the best with your work and thanks again Thank you so much


Welcome back to the 21 convention 2019 of Warsaw, Poland. Our next speaker is the man who wrote the book on day game.  He's a good new friend of the convention, he's the first time speaking and very excited to have him on our stage. Without further ado, please let me welcome Nick Krauser to the 21 convention stage. Thank you very much. Yes sir, you guys. Right lads. So I'm going to talk about day game. That's my topic. Day game, namely chasing skirt. In the street, the mall, cafe, wherever, usually the street. When the sun is up usually and it's going to be quite a technical talk. I'm going to work through what is known as the London day game model, which I co-created It's named that because it was a bunch of skirt chasers in London running around chasing skirt and we were trying to figure out how do you pick up women during the day and this is what we came up with. So you might think, why me, why day game? Well, I'm so glad you asked. So why me? I've been doing day game for about 10 years. Obsessively so for the first eight years of that. I've spoken to a lot of women, a banged a lot of women, some not so hot, you know. I've been around. I think I've got a good handle on this process and I've done a lot of coaching to explain it. I wrote a couple of books on it, the main one, day game mastery, big, thick, massive tomb on all the ins and outs of this, but don't worry, we're not going to go into that level of detail. I just want to give you an overview of how we like to chase skirt during the day, this model and if that takes you fancy, well, have at it. The materials are there, the girls are out there in the street, go chase them. So how about why would you choose to do day game? Well, day game is not the only way to get laid, of course. People have been getting laid for a very long time. All the one way it's going to cut and day game is going to appeal to people who have certain priorities, certain personality types and if you think it's for you, well, go for it, but I'm not kind of day game jihadi, I'm not like this is the best way to get laid, this is the only way to get laid. This is where you get the best women, it's not like that. What I like about day game, I'm deeply introverted, very, very introverted.   And for my personality type, I just don't like that. What I do like is I like walking around. I like walking around in my thoughts, taking in the atmosphere in the sunshine. That pleases me, so day game is good for that. If you're that way inclined, it might work for you. Day game is also good for people who like to talk, because if you're chatting to a girl for five, ten minutes on the street, it's just you and her, one-on-one. You can get a very deep, thick emotional bandwidth there. You can get a lot of connection. So if that appeals to you again, day game might be your thing. And another reason why you might like it is it's a healthy way to chase scot. You do it sober, you do it in the daytime. I like to think that this way, there's those of you who've read your history, or considerably older than I am, will know that Victoria and England, the cities, London, Birmingham, so on, were smog-ridden, incredibly polluted, cesspits, very unhealthy places. So there used to be a thing where middle-class people would go to the doctor, suffering from various ailments, and the doctor would say to them, look, you're not actually sick. There's not actually wrong with you except you're living in London. That's the problem. So the prescription used to be to go to a seaside resort, like Torquay, Blackpool, Southend, places like this. The English coastline where the air's clear, the sky's blue, the grass is green, and you can walk around in a very chilled atmosphere taken in the air. And that is what you're doing when you do day game. Good day gamers have been doing it a lot of very healthy people, because they're walking around, you know, a lot of hours a day, very mindful of their posture as they do so. They get a lot of the, whatever the vitamin is you get from the sun, drink a lot of water, you get a good night's sleep, you don't have to go out clubbing on a Friday or Saturday night to find girls. You're not getting the music and you're eating your tinnitus. So it's quite healthy. I mean, psychologically it can be a bit dangerous in certain ways, maybe we'll go into that sometime. But it's very good for your physically. Yeah, I think that's enough preamble on why day game. I mean, if you do it, you'll get a feel for if it's for you. It's also very good for your masculinity. So cold approach pickup generally is thinking of what Richard was saying in his earlier talk about taking control of your life, about intent, about forcing yourself to go out and do things which might be difficult and day game is hard. It's very hard, but what is, is it's you seeing, look, you know what?  Is it right swipe or left swipe? I don't know, I never use it. But you're not just swipe and tinder and hoping for girls to come to you. What you're seeing is right. I'm going to go out there. I'm going to put myself in the mix.  And if I like one, I'm going to go up and tell her. In a rather more complex way than just tell her. But you're going to tell her, you're going to convey your intent. You're not hiding it. You're not leaning back too cool for school, pretending you don't fancy her.  I'm pursuing you. And that feels good. Feels very good when you do it and be very stressful, but you get into it and become very addictive, feels very manly. And also because day game is very difficult because you're doing it very sober and you're trying to engineer interesting, seductive conversations from zero with someone you've literally just seen. It's also going to test your problem solving. It's going to test your wits. It's going to work on your charisma. You're going to get a lot of rejection, which you've then got to get back up after. So it's also, in a way, it's kind of like the furnace that strengthens the steel. So again, good day gamers tend to come across as quite strong characters psychologically. So anyway, enough preamble on why. Let's talk about expectations as we decide to do it. Well, I don't mean to disillusion you, but you're not going to be banging a load of supermodels.  Doesn't actually happen. In an unlikely event that you are able to bang a load of supermodels based entirely on your personal charisma, I'll be emailing you for coaching. So what can you reasonably expect? Well, ignore the marketing bullshit, right? It's not a magic bullet. It's not one simple trick.  That's not going to happen, but what will happen is very, very beneficial for your life if you're ambitious and you put yourself to it. So what is a reasonable expectation?  Everything is adjusted to that.  So one way to do it would be to think of your own sexual history and think, okay, what's the hottest bird you've banged in the last five years? Right, forget that, it was an outlier. What was the second hottest bird you've banged in the last five years? That sort of girl you can probably, if you commit to this, you'll probably either get a lot more girls of that caliber or you'll get a reasonable number of girls of say a point or two hotter than that. That's a reasonable expectation. Although not in the beginning because it's a formidable learning curve. What might be another way of looking at it? Well, the difficulty depends on your ambition. I was rather obsessive. I was suspended between seven and 10,000 girls over the last 10 years.  Then you go out for a couple of hours, talk to girls, okay. You know, again, you're not gonna be banged super models but it can markedly improve your life. So that is what it can give you, but let's see. Because there's no magic, it's SMV. This talk's gonna be technical and I don't want to give you the wrong impression. I'm not saying learn this, everything's great, right. There's been a lot of other talks you've had. A lot of things you've read which are things like improve your SMV, right. Go to the gym, eat right, change your aesthetic, read a lot of books, straighten out the inner game, kinks in your own psychology based on whatever's gone on in your past, right.  And then when you hit the streets and you start doing this stuff, we're gonna find a way of delivering that value, right. You're not bamboozling the girl, you're not tricking the girl, she knows exactly what you're up to. Why we've got this model is it's a very structured way of starting from zero and getting five, 10 minutes in and you've been able to deliver a lot of the value that you have. Show the girl a lot about you in multiple facets. You've learned something about that girl, create a nice little energy and then at the end you find out if it's gonna go somewhere. So I often like to think of it as a value delivery mechanism. It's quite an efficient way to do so. And another way to think of it is like poker, playing a game of poker, you know TV poker and no limit, Texas hold them, is the skill is in playing your cards correctly but you never really get to choose the cards you get. So I think of it when you're walking around meeting girls on the street, think of that as being dealt your two whole cards in a Texas hold them game, right? You go up to the girl, you don't know much about her, she could be really into your type of guy, she could be available or she could be not into you, she could be unavailable. You don't know that necessarily until you've gotten to talk to her. I mean, this hints what can go into it but you're gonna get cards, you're gonna talk to a girl and then, depending on how that interaction goes, you're gonna think, you know what, I'm gonna put more into this, I'm gonna see how it goes. That's a little bit like waiting for the flop. You find out more and then you play that hand and you might think, you know what, this isn't working, this isn't the right type of girl or she's not into me or something I'm gonna fold. And in the end you're gonna fold most of your hands just like you do in the bar game and night game. Most girls you talk to want no for various reasons.  So you fold those hands, that doesn't matter because what good poker players do is they manage their chip stack, which in this case is your emotional energy and you're waiting for the right hand that you play well so you win everything.  That's the payoff.  So that's a little bit of a preamble on what to expect. So let's go into the model itself. So the purpose of the model is to give you a structured interaction where you can practice each element, get better at it, learn to see what the girl's given back to you, learn to more effectively convey who you are in an attractive manner and there's a direction. The analogy I like to use, especially when I'm watching some of the really god-awful infields on YouTube, is imagine like one guy going up to a girl and talking is not game. It's not pick up. It can be a nice chat. It might even go somewhere, but it doesn't mean any game is taking place. Game's a process. Just like putting on a pair of swimming trunks, jumping in the deep end of the pool and flailing the arms around is not swimming. It's drowning, right? It might look a little bit like swimming, but it's not going anywhere. Swimming is a skill set and you can learn it. Game is an art. It's a bit like say in boxing, right?  It's not purely about mindset. There's a technical skill. There's jabs, crosses, bobs, weaves. There's a technical skill and so it is with game. Right then. So let's talk about the model. It's very simple. There's only five stages to remember. Open, stack, vibe, investment, close. We'll get into what Spike saw in a minute. All right. Open is beginning an encounter, beginning a conversation. Takes anywhere between half a second to 10 seconds, very fast. I'm going to go all these in more detail in a minute. I'm just going to give you an overview. Stack, that's the next thing. It is a bridge to a conversation. It's the bit where you create the conversation out of nothing. So you stop the girl, you have her attention. She's got an inkling of why you're talking to her. You now have to build a conversation, find a topic. We call that stacking.  She's, okay, thank you, and walks off. You have to indicate we're going into a conversation. You have to carry a lot of the work here to make the conversation happen. Okay. Next, vibe, vibing. What this is is what normal people would call flirting.  Typically, it goes on between one minute, three minutes. Then you move into an investment stage. Investment is actually getting to know each other. Telling her about you, finding out about her. And this time, it is at face value. You actually say what you mean. So that's the investment stage. And then finally, you'll come to a point, five, 10 minutes in, maybe even 20 minutes in, where you think, right, ticked all the check boxes. I've conveyed who I am, what I want. She's giving me a lot back. I think this is working. And then you go for the close, which usually is just you take a number. But depending on the situation, you might say, you know what, like why are we talking here on the street? There's a cafe over there. Let's go have a coffee right now. Instant date. So this talk's gonna be about just that process, not the texting, not the dating, not the escalation afterwards. So now, before the open, you get what you might call pre-approach. Pre-approach is everything you do from deciding to go out to hit on the girl to actually find a girl in opening. So I wanna say a few words about that. So, if you ever walk down the street and look around at the people, you'll notice that most people are not conscious of how they're presenting themselves to the public, right? They're too busy. They've just got off the metro. They've got to pop into a shop by, you know, pot a pasta and get home. They think, well, they're gonna watch on Netflix, whatever. They are not conscious of how they're presenting themselves to the world around. And they don't need to be. You know, they might be happily married, with kids, everything's going great. They don't need to be conscious of it. But if you are walking around chasing skirt, you have to be conscious of it.  You want girls to be noticing you positively before you've even spoken to them. So how do you do that? First thing you have to do is you have to adjust your metronome. So you know metronome, right, bits per minute. What you'll find is most people, their metronome, which times their body gestures, their vocal tone and everything, moves quite fast. And the more stressed you are, the faster it's gonna go. I'm probably talking faster right now than I normally do, because this is my first time on stage for the 21 convention, right? It's a little bit of a pressure situation. And daygames are very high pressure situation. But if you think of like cool people, you know, if you think of Clint Eastwood, man with no name, right? You think of the, of Tyler Dunn from Fight Club, you think of the coolest guys in Hollywood, the characters, they move slowly, they talk slowly, they're laconic. If you think of like the coolest animals, like lions, tigers, they're slow, they're laconic. Little chihuahuas are yappy, little yappy and they move fast, right? Lions don't, until they kill. So generally speaking, slower, more laconic is cool. So what you often want to do when you're daygaming is you want to slow your metronome down so that all of your behaviors slow down. So the first way you do that is you just walk slowly.  Very simple. Then if you're with a wing, you'll try and talk a bit slower. You'll try to slow your gestures down. And what you're doing is you're just adding a little increment onto how attractive you are. Like I say, no magic bullets. All this model is you're just adding a little increments onto how charismatic, how attractive you are so that when you do roll the dice with a girl you like, it's more likely to come up with the number you want. Again, it's like why we use pork analogy probability.  And that means your default level when you go talk to a girl is going to be a bit slower, a bit cooler. Next thing you want to do pre-approach is you want to become very mindful of your posture and your body. So I normally take my students through a mindfulness exercise where I will talk them up from focusing on their toes and the crunch of your, I mean, maybe you can do it right now. You think of your toes crunch and bit, feel them against the sock, feel the connection of your feet to the carpet.  And what you're going to be doing is suddenly you're mindful of your posture, you've got good correct posture, you're moving quite slowly, you just present a more attractive image to all these girls who are walking past you. All right, next thing you want to do is you want to get your mind in the right place. So the biggest problem with cold approach day game, indeed cold approach bar game, night game, is approach anxiety. It is that block you feel when you move from, oh, I'd like to talk to that woman too, you know what, I think I'll talk to that woman. And then the invisible wall drops down and you just can't move and you can't do it. We call that approach anxiety. Now approach anxiety, I think of it, is where you're all here in the front of your mind, right? The anxiety is here, neuroticism here, you're spinning ideas, you've got to load a self-talk, negative self-talk, and it's spinning around and it distances you from the feeling of your body, from your feeling of connection with the street and it makes you anxious and speeds you up. So conventional ways of dealing with that is to fight fire with fire. You fight negative self-talk with positive self-talk. Now I think that doesn't work, certainly not in day game. Because what that's like is, it's like trying to smooth water, like turbulent water with your hand, just doesn't do it.  I don't think you can fight negative self-talk on the street with positive self-talk. What you have to do is you have to distract yourself. You have to use distraction gambit.  So a hypervigilance exercise is you stop picking out everything you can see in the street. Now I originally got this idea from reading a book about a MI5 counter terrorist spy who said part of his training is when they're walking down the street, he says, oh yeah, third floor window open, dark could be a sniper. All right, two guys stand next to a white van talking, they don't seem to be working, and he's spotting threats. That's where I got the idea from. So you want to do a positive version of that, relentlessly positive version of that to improve your vibe.   Oh, God, you know, the sky's really blue, feels very warm, I like this. Oh, those ice creams, those are my favorite ice cream, right? You're talking relentlessly positive.   So that calms you. And what it also means is you're hyper aware of the street and you become considerably more comfortable and confident of your position on the street spotting everything. So it's very win-win. So by now and pre-approach, you're walking around glorious sunshine with your friend, having a chat, you're mindful of your posture, you feel connected to the street, your mind is out there with relentless positivity in a good mood, all right, it's great. Now what you want to start doing is spotting girls. So generally speaking, let's say you focus your mind about 20 meters out, focus your vision about 20 meters out. So what you want to do is you want to be taking in all the information of all the girls, noticing the ones you like to look of and giving yourself time to react. So let's say, you know, girls walking on the other side of the street, there's a load of people between you, you see her over there, so you got time to slightly change your course to make it a bit easier to get in there. So you'll often fall into a kind of a trance, like a day game trance, it's a happy, comfortable vibe. And the type of metaphor I like to use for it is I call it the day game river. So I'll just tell you it's a little parable. Imagine you're walking through, you're hiking with your best friend.  You can see the tinkling of a stream, nice big wide stream, it's about knee deep.  And a little lily comes down, comes down. Oh, if I put it, you reach for it, you try and grab it. Okay, maybe you can't quite reach it. Doesn't matter, you're enjoying yourself, right? You feel good. But later another lovely lily comes down. Oh, I quite like that. Maybe you get to grab it, you have a little look at it and you put it back. That's the kind of metaphor for when you walk around the street and all these girls are going past you, right?    Maybe you get it, maybe you don't and then you move on. So that's like pre-approach mindset. So now, target selection. How would you actually decide which women to talk to? So the raw fact is most women are no, right? Got a boyfriend, they're married, don't like you, in a bad mood, whatever, most women are no, right? But some are yes, some are maybe. And you wanna try and reduce the work rate. You wanna reduce the amount of squeeze you have to do to get the juice. So one way of doing that is choosing your targets, I know that's a predatory language, choosing your targets carefully.  Nothing wrong with that. But if you're talking a lot a day again, over a lot of period of time, you're gonna think, you know what, I'm gonna try and make this a bit more efficient. So you gotta start looking at the girls around. Obviously, I'd say only open the girls you like. Obviously, right? Don't get into these weird learning exercise or I must talk to 20 girls today. I must talk to 10 girls today because there might not be 10 girls that you like there. And if you talk to girls you don't like, well, you're incongruent, you're training bad habits of incongruency and the girls gonna think this is a bit weird. I don't even think it even likes me, or as you're talking to me and you're just creating a lose-lose interaction which doesn't help anybody, right? So you approach the girls you genuinely like. So how do you know if they are more likely to be up for it? Right, well, there's a couple of things you can look for. Now bear in mind, this is art not science, but there's some things you can look for. Number one, body language. Girls have an ovulation cycle. I believe it stays 15 to 17 after men's begin. And when girls are horny, they normally show it. Show a bit more skin, a bit more revealing.  So if you're getting that feeling from a girl, oh yeah, it looks like she might be quite up for it. Generally, right, she might not even know you exist yet or you see, and she's showing a lot of skin in this sexy sort of way. You think, you know what, okay, that's a bit higher probability. Bit higher probability.  Then look at her body language. Key things to look for. Hip swear.  You can notice that. Another one, head bubble. Normally comes at the same time as hip swear. So you think those little bubble heads that you can put on your car dashboard on the springs, their heads are like this? Well, girls walk like that when they're horny, right? They got the hips swaying, their heads are like that.  Another one, watch where their eyes go. A girl who is hoping the universe manifests adventure will have very curious eyes. They're going all over. They're looking at the shop window. They're looking at people going past. They're looking at the dog playing with a tennis ball. They're checking guys out.  So keep an eye on for that. Other things you can watch for is a girl who's ambling slowly and dreamily. Girls seem to know instinctively that when they're hoping to meet a man, they have to look a bit vulnerable. They have to look a bit like, you know, the slowest gazelle in the herd pack, whatever the group noun is. Right, so they tend to come off from the group. They'll walk around by themselves. They'll walk a bit slow. They'll look approachable. So again, it just ups the probability a bit. You know what? That girl probably wouldn't mind meeting a guy. But then you think, well, that might be that she's open to the world generally, but does she have any interest in me personally? Well, you can test that through what we call Indicators of Interest. Pre-approach, Indicators of Interest, IY. So you walk and pass the girl, watch her eyes.  You might look at her and you're watching where her eyes go. Do they check you out?   We call that a sly IY because they're hoping to get away with it. But you know a girl might eyeball you. She might turn her head. She might look at you once, look away, look back at you.  She isn't just generally hoping to meet a guy. She seems to have some sort of interest in me. Again, your probability goes up. Open girls like that, you're going to get statistically better responses. So that's a bit of the pre-approach game. Now let's talk about once you've decided to talk, the open. Okay, the open. So the internet is full of great openers. Openers don't really matter. They really don't. And yet they're also the most important part of the game. It's a bit of a paradox I'll try and explain. So what you say doesn't matter much, but how you say it matters a lot. So the three key rules of opening, engage in a girl is eye contact, stop signal and conviction. Those are three things. If you get those right, everything else is negotiable depending on the situation. So what do I mean? Eye contact.  We'll go into the words later. You hold the eye contact the whole time. And there's qualities of eye contact that as you get better, you get better at doing this. Okay, stop signal. Well, she's going somewhere. You want to indicate to her that your internet's stopped to talk. So stop signal. Let's say she's coming at you. Excuse me, stop, stop, stop, stop, stop. Now it's not this many of the hands in one finger. It doesn't matter. The point is you're saying stop. Let's say she's walking this way and you've got to get in front of her. She might tap her shoulder. Excuse me, stop, stop, stop, stop, stop. Like this, all right? Doesn't matter. There's various different geometry to the open if you're really ambitious and you really want to nail this. But the key thing is you're giving us some sort of indication that you intend to stop and listen to you. And if you do that with sufficient masculine presence and dominance with strong but gentle eye contact, a very good chance she's going to stop. Then conviction. Well, mean it. You've got to really mean it.  That sometimes happens. Not a lot, but it does happen.  You saw her. You wanted her. You wanted to introduce yourself. So the train's coming down the tracks. You straddle the tracks. You're not, she goes past you like, excuse me, like one of those charity sign-up people. Excuse me, excuse me, excuse me. Can I just perhaps sneak into your past, please, sorry. Now you're going strong, conviction. And then what she does with it, that's our business. So that is the basic geometry of the open. But what might you say? What the words? What words might you like to say? Well, it doesn't really matter. I'd say what normally happens is when you start moving in on a girl, she'll have an instinctive reaction, right? And I'm talking microseconds from her realizing you're going to talk about it. There'll be an instinctive reaction. Often you haven't even got your first word out. And instinctive reaction can pretty much go one or two ways. It can be lighting up, she's like, ah, right? That's great. That's exactly what you're hoping for. Or it can be something like what? Can I help you? Like that, right? So if you're getting the kind of confused or can I help you look, you've got to put a little bit of background into what. You'd be like, look, excuse me, sorry. I was just over there and I saw you and I wanted to say, you've got a little bit of context for the interaction and then you go on to your opener. If she lights up immediately, well, what normally happens is your blood fills with the power of a thousand warriors, your confidence goes up and you get very direct. You're like, right, you stop, I won't talk to you. And smirk comes on your face naturally. And then normally in the open, what you'll say is you'll basically just want to tell her some version of, I know it's doing, I like you. Now, to get good at that takes a hell of a lot of practice, right? A hell of a lot of practice, but really it also comes down as you're saying, look, I just noticed you, I like your own talk to you, some version of that. Maybe in the questions after this, if you're really interested in my favorite openers, I can tell you them. So you've opened. All right. Normally what I like to do is I like to put a label on the girl mentally when I see her.  Ah, right, she's got hair like a shampoo commercial. Maybe she's really tall and leggy with a serious face. Okay, she looks like a catwalk model who's lost her runway. Maybe it's winter. She's got like a hood up and with all the fur around. Okay, she's an Eskimo, whatever. I normally will look at a girl and put some sort of creative label on her, which is what I'm going to then refer back to her in the open. Look, I just noticed you're walking past and you're very colorful, got some lovely flowery skirt on. I like that. You look kind of like a Japanese print on a wall. Doesn't really matter. Doesn't matter, it's nonsense. You're just seeing something positive about her and she's going to feel the energy. And she should stop most of the time. Right, so the stack. Assuming she's stopped, what do you do next? You've got to build a conversation. You've got to stack. So the key to stacking is all the weight is on you. All the conversational weight is on you. She was just on her way home. She's thinking about what she's going to watch on TV or whatever, what shoe she's going to buy. She's not prepared for conversation. She doesn't know anything about you. But girls are receptive to male advances. They know it's their job to politely receive an advance and decide what to do about it. So she's going to listen, usually. It's going to give you a chance to make a conversation. So talk about her. That's the key thing. She doesn't know who you are.  Not right now, anyway. Just met you.  So if you come up to her with a very positive energy, with a cheeky vibe, quite dominant, clearly hitting on her, and then you indicate to her you're about to tell her something about herself that you noticed, she's going to be considerably more likely to hang around and hear it. It's going to be interesting.  Say what you see. I often say to students, just pick three things. Two positive, one of the T's. Just say, look, I really like how you look.  Very simple, very simple. That could be one. Could be her manner. Say, look, I just want to say you had such a dreamy look on your face.  It's quite cute. I like that, but you seem a bit crazy. The words aren't the important thing. You're making an observation. It's playful. Something about her. He starts stacking. Then what you'll normally do is make some kind of assumption or some kind of observation about her, which is giving us something to chew on. So you might say, no, you look very Italian. What's going to happen? She's going to comment on that. Yes, actually, I am. Oh, no, I'm not. Doesn't matter. The point is not to be correct. The point is to get her talking.  That's a very Italian thing to do. Oh, well, actually, yes, I'm from Rome. All right, when I think of, I've never been to Rome, but when I think of Rome, I think of the Roman legions. I think of the Colosseum. It's very historical. Oh, yes, love. Now you're talking about Rome. You're talking about Italy. You've got a topic. But you might have said something about food. Oh, you know, all of Italian food. Absolutely gorgeous. Pizza, best thing in the world. Oh, no, in Italy. Pizza is not such a big deal. So you're talking about Italian food now. The point is you're trying to find a topic in the stack. That's the key thing. Trying to find a topic. And once you've got the topic, you stay with it. Move on with the topic. Don't keep switching it or you're going to get stalled out. Do I have anything more to say about stacking? By the way, am I dropping this too fast on you? I know this is a lot of technical stuff. It might be hard to keep up, but this is my bread and butter. All right, then. So when you're stacking, you're looking for hook point. Hook point. Hook point means the girls made a decision. You know what? I'm going to hear this guy out. Make a pitch. I'm going to hear you out. I like this. Some girls, you start stacking. They realize you're trying to draw them into a conversation, not just compliment them. And they say, look, you know, I've got to get my bus. I'm in a hurry. Sorry, I've got a boyfriend look. I'm married. And they're going to be known. They're going to go away. You don't get the hook point. But a lot of girls are going to give you the hook point. And you just feel it. You feel that they've made this decision. You know what? I'm going to talk to this guy. It'll often manifest itself physically. Like one thing girls will often do is they'll just cross their legs and sit on them like that to hear you. Another one might be they might get out a cigarette, light it up, and wait for your talk. Or let's say they had their headphones in and they'd take them off to talk to you. They might pull their phone out and stop the music. Put it back in, right? They're gesturing to you that they're going to hear you out. So that's hook point. So that's a good sign usually that you can move into vibing. Vibing this into play of energy. So vibing is flirting. The key thing about vibing is you're not communicating the first value. You're making things silly, right? So let's say you're talking to an Italian girl and she's talking about Italy. Now you're talking lighthearted about it. You know, oh yeah, what I really like about Italy is the Renaissance. I love the paintings. I love Michelangelo, Leonardo, Donatello. I love all the Ninja Turtles. It's playful. Like let's say she's Russian, because I travel a lot internationally, so it tends to be the country. But it can be a mood. It can be the way she looks. It can be her job. There's a lot of things you talk to a girl about. I just tend to talk about the country. But let's say she's Russian. You can immediately spin a story about how your mum warned you about Russian girls, because she's seen James Bond movies. And there's always a beautiful Russian girl who meets James Bond at the casino and seduces him. And then when he's sleeping, she gets her gun out and tries to kill him. So you say to her, look, I'm very nervous right now. I mean, you're pretty, but look, I'm nervous. Look, look, that's how nervous I am. It's playful. It's a bit silly. And you're trying to create a bit of a laughing, but you're trying to expand fun energy between you. And it's too early to really go much into who you really are, who she really is. Now, the purpose of vibing is its attraction, attraction phase. There's three things you need to do with a woman, a banger. You have to make her attracted to you, attraction. You have to make her comfortable with you, comfort. And then you have to escalate her towards sex, which is seduction. Now, generally speaking, attraction becomes before comfort, which becomes before seduction. They don't have to, but they usually do. So vibing would put this in the model because we're trying to get the attraction bit early, so that she sticks around to hear the comfort, because most guys can do comfort. That's like normal, nice guy talk. Most of you don't need to learn about that. So the key ways of doing attraction in day game is teasing and challenging. So teasing is you make fun of her. You know how to tease a woman. Challenging is you show her that you don't quite buy what she's selling. So an example of challenging is a girl might say, oh, yeah, I'm actually studying economics at university. Economics? That sounds a bit boring, doesn't it? No, playfully. But you're challenging. She'll be, oh, well, yeah, it is. Oh, no, it's not. Doesn't matter. You bring her in. Or she might say, well, yeah, actually, I'm going off to XYZ Place next week to do ABC. Why? It's challenging. The reason it's attractive is that it shows you not to push over. Because what a normal chump will do when a girl says something is you'll just go, yeah, awesome, awesome, brilliant, awesome. She'll be like, yeah, I just mailed a letter. Oh, awesome. Yeah, and then I'm going to catch a bus later. Oh, awesome. Got a very low threshold for what is awesome.  You're not just a pushover. So you just drop a couple of little light challenges. Nothing serious.  Well, in certain sets, you can do that when they're very banter-y.  Oh, no. I actually think this thing. So that's challenging. Teasing, just be funny. You know, maybe she smiles. You're like, oh, look. You're really cute when you smile. You got hamster cheeks.  It's teasing, challenging. You'll all have your own favorite ways of doing that. So we should now be getting into this stage. It's about two minutes in, three minutes in. You start dialing down the energy of this Vagami engine. And then you just start getting a little bit more getting to know her. And the reason you do this is you don't want to come off as a clown.   You know nothing about her. There's no reason for it. I want to see you again. So you have to bed the interaction down a little bit and actually get to know each other a bit. So most girls, when they talk to each other, their friends, about guys they're dating or thinking of dating, they normally put a label on the guy. They say, oh, Mary, so how's that surfer guy? How's it going with him? Oh, how's it going with a business guy? How's it going with such and such guy? They put a label on the guy. So you want her to know a label, positive label, that she's going to put on about you. So tell her a little bit about yourself. Not a lot, but put in, ask her some real questions. And if you get on with a nice topic where she tells you one of her interests, well, you can pursue the topic. Don't be too silly about it. I don't really think I need to tell you much about investment, because I think all men kind of get to do it naturally. It's the vibing, which can be counterintuitive, because it feels that you're taking a risk. So the investment is where you get to convey your solid masculine energy, who you are. But the problem with investment is it can be a little bit boring. It can be a little bit boring. You can feel the hook point start to drop. The fish can start to wriggle off the hook a little bit, because the energy goes down a bit. It's a little bit boring. And if you're not careful, you can kind of get into a long friend zone chat, which doesn't move you towards seduction. So to counteract this, we have what we call spiking. Spikes. I'll put them here as little flashes of hot energy.  So a nonverbal spike would be, let's say, talking to the girl. She's talking about, I don't know, why she decided to do a philosophy degree. Ooh, nice. Anyway, carry on. Just blatantly check our legs out and then move on. Another one, one I sometimes do if it's a really good set. Let's say she's got a jacket on and a look at top. I'll grab all the pearls. I say, that's very distracting. Carry on. So these are ways of just reminding a sexual. Now the key on sexual spikes is do them and move on. Don't linger on them or it becomes creepy. But what it does is it'll spike the energy up and you'll normally notice the girls react by they laugh, they giggle, they move up balance, they give you a flirty look and you're like, yeah, it's still man-woman. It's still man-woman here. We're not heading to the friend zone. And if you can't think of anything creative, you can just spike by saying something like, hmm, I really like your legs. Very nice. Just compliment on being a woman. So that is spiking. When it comes to closing, there's no particular time limit to close. I mean, typically in a set it'll be five to 10 minutes, but you close when you feel like you've ticked all the boxes. Now, if she's waiting for a tram and it's going really well, you might tick those boxes off fast because you know you've got time pressure.  So there's no time limit on it. What you're doing is you're thinking, right, I've done my little vibing. Do I think she fancies me? Have we got to know each other? Have we spiked a bit? Okay, I think everything's there, I can close. And there's no magic to closing. There's no gambits. Doesn't matter. She's got to know you for five, 10 minutes. She's got a good idea if she wants to give you the number and maybe see you again. So I think it's best just to restate your intent. Right at the beginning you said some variation of luck. I think you're nice. I want to talk to you. You say that at the end. So what I'll normally say to a girl is I'll say, look, I've got to go now. But I think you're a very pretty girl.  Would you like that? And then you'll get the yes, the no, the maybe. And if it's yes, okay, you take the number. If it's maybe, I'll take that as a yes. You take the number. If it's no, well, you got to ask yourself why. I always ask myself the question, does she fancy me? If she doesn't, I've seen no sign of attraction. Just let her go. It's win-win, right? You don't want to create awkward situations that you don't need to because that's going to hurt your vibe in future sets. There's no reason to put the negative energy out there.  You might want to be a little bit more persistent. You might want to argue the toss a little bit. And she might change her mind. She might have just been a bit coy. She might have had an obstacle you can deal with. But, or she might just say, look, really no, I don't want to. And then you're like, okay, fair enough. Nice meeting you. Have a great day. So that is very simple overview. Well, I think it's simple for a London day game model. So I just want to, I've got a bit more time before we do questions. So I just want to talk a little bit about sexual tension. So the two biggest problems in my experience of men trying to pick up hot women, number one approach anxiety, number two, attraction. So approach anxiety, you know, you don't pick up hot women because you're too nervous to talk to them. And if you overcome it and do talk to them, you're so nervous when you're talking to them that you make such a hash of it that you present yourself badly. But attraction, the problem is most men are simply not attractive to most women, just the way it is. So how can you make yourself more attractive? Well, most of that is before you even begin this, right? It's before you hit the street. That's where most of the attraction work is done. But the things you can do in the street to be more sexual, more masculine, create a male-female polarity in the set so you don't have like a drab, slow, anemic conversation. You give the girl more of a thrill. She gets to feel the energy of feeling like a woman. So three main ways of doing this is distance, eye, mesmer, and touch. So distance, really, really simple. Let's say the girl is here. Most guys will talk at a polite range, right? Because it feels comfortable, feels polite. But it's not sexual. So all you do is you take a step in and talk, and now you're this close. And what that does is it kicks off the animal energy. Now, not every girl will accept it. Some girls will step back a bit to reclaim the space. But girls who don't, suddenly, you just hit the night rose, right? You've amped up the interaction. And a girl who lets you get close doesn't seem uncomfortable with it. She's still smiling. Her eyes are still sparkling. You're thinking, right, this is good. This is going good, right? And you can press your advantage. Eye mesmer. Eye mesmer is basically just seductive eye contact.  But this has an effect on girls. If you do powerful eye contact on a girl who likes you, it will massively amp up the situation. And what you'll usually find is when you, I normally just look into one of her eyes, quite intently, and what'll happen is her eye will be like beautifully colored and crisp. Like you've just like perfectly tuned in your television or the focus on a camera to get it really, really crisp. And then everything around it will just seem kind of blurred. It's a kind of weird trick of attention. But when you stare into someone's eyes, it's very clear. Everything else is blurred.  Now you can recreate that in the street, especially if you're close to her and she likes you. You can recreate and it's very powerful. You can almost feel her heart beating fast when you do that. And it can make digging very addictive because it's an incredible feeling and you feel absolutely like a boss. So let's say you're close, you're doing a bit of eye mesmer. The other thing you can do is touching, incidental touching.  Or maybe you just swing it around a bit. Maybe you just play around with it like this. Incidental touching. Or maybe when you're teasing her, instead of just teasing her, what you do is you put a bit of touching. So she says something and you're like, instead of just saying, no, that's silly. You might say, no, that's silly. Part of the nose. Or you might say something and you just prod her belly. Now I'm not saying you'd go around manhandling every woman you've seen in the street. Like you earn your way in through the earlier parts of the set, through reading her comfort with the situation.   Or you might say, you might want to change the topic of conversation like you segue in the conversation. So you might just tap on her shoulders. Right, anyway.  So distance, eye, mesmer, touch. Those are three ways to amp up the sexuality of a set. All right, a little word on intent. So one of the things that's very satisfying about Cold Approach Pickup is you feel like a boss when you're doing it. Not every day. I mean, you get bad days, a lot of rejection. But when it's going well, you feel like an absolute boss. Why? Because you are conveying masculine intent. You feel like a man because you're going out to the girls and you're like saying, right, I like that, I'm going to try and have some of that.  Very masculine. Now, there's long been a debate in Pickup about how much should you convey that intent to a girl.  What about the Me Too movement? Is it harassment? Right, so the key thing you're going to know is that every girl knows exactly what you're up to, right?    She knows this, right? So it's not really about, do you show your intent, do you not show your intent? Your intent's there, everyone knows it, right? People watching you know it.  It's the gray area of seduction where she knows you're trying to pick her up, you know that she knows, you know that she knows that you know, but you're not necessarily making it overt and crude and vulgar. So I like to call it plausibly deniable direct day game. So you tend not to get vulgar with your words, I mean certain sets you can. You don't get too vulgar, too obvious with your words, but you make sure your body language is conveying exactly what you're doing through your eye contact, your touch, through innuendo, through vocal tone, through pregnant pauses, through teasing, through challenging. She knows what you're doing. She absolutely knows what you're doing. Don't at any point think that you are putting her, putting one over on her. You are not manipulating her. You are not cheating her out of something she wouldn't do if she thought, if she knew what you were really up to, right? The London day game style and ethos behind it is win-win, very open, very honest, right? Don't tell lies in set, we don't hide our intent. We don't pretend we want this thing when we really want this thing. It's very open. So what that means is not only does it feel good for you in a game as a man going forward from week to week, month to month, that you're an honest person and you're living in accordance with your moral code, which includes chasing skirt, but what you're also doing is women know this. They're used to guys creeping on them, guys trying all kinds of roundabout ways to try to get into the knickers and you're not one of those guys. You're not only coming straight out with your intent, very honestly, but you're doing it in an artfully delivered way which shows a knowledge of the language of seduction. So what you'll usually find is girls respect it even if they don't fancy you. So you'll often get girls who will say it to you afterwards, let's say they're married, the answer is no. They'll say you should keep doing this. It's really good what you're doing, right? Because they know as girls that they're not the initiators, they need men to initiate and here you are going out artfully, honestly, masculine man initiating. They know it's these things which create the opportunities that the girls get to choose from. So they get the game. So they politely receive the advance, everything's open and above board.  It's a very, very open, honest thing to get the intent out. You just have to do it artfully. So, right. So I've kind of rattled through the model pretty fast there. I just want to give you an overview of how technical this can be. Like I say, I don't know overstate. Technique doesn't win everything, right? All these things you've heard already in the show about straightening out your inner game, about building your masculinity, about getting your life in order, about having a good mental map of how the world works at the sexual marketplace. All of that still holds, right? None of this is gain-seeing it, right? This is merely a technical structure which can be practiced just the way that you can practice boxing, swimming, archery, chess. It's a technical structure. But just like in boxing, it doesn't matter how good your style is.  You've got to work on all your attributes as well.  So that is London Day Game Model. I believe I've got about five minutes left, so I'll take questions. Nick, thanks. Yeah, I've always been a big fan of yours for about two years now. So got a question is, in the beginning you said that day game's not for everyone. And it depends on your personality, your personal calibration, a lot of factors. What do you think about the need, the fact that most people sort of need to get their inner game solid first before they even attempt something as difficult as day game? Do you think that automatically weeds out a lot of people who are, who may not be suitable for something like day game? Okay, well, that's my answer there is yes and no, so I'll have to explain. The answer is no in the sense that you don't become a procrastinator, right? The only way to learn to swim is to get wet. You have to go out and take action. And if you spend all your time navel gazing, right, inner game work, you're never really going to get started. It's going to make you anxious and nothing happens, right? If you go out and try things and keep doing them, your inner game often has a way of working itself out. So, you know, men should be men of action.   But the caveat to that is if you have serious issues, like serious social anxiety issues or self-loathing issues or, you know, more than just the normal, you know, I'm a bit scared to talk to women in the day when I'm sober, then yeah, you got to deal with those, right? Because there's no hiding on the street. There's no loud music, it's not dark. You're looking right into the girl's eyes.  And if your inner game is wrecked, she's going to see it in your eyes, right?   But if your inner game's not right, they'll wobble you. And also there's a tremendous amount of rejection in day game. So again, if you're a bit fragile, maybe you don't want to be going through that rejection too straight away. So it all depends what level of inner game work you need.  Because day game is not a magic bullet, right? Like, it doesn't break the rules of the sexual marketplace, right? High value women sleep with high value men. They do not sleep with low value men.  You work on your value, right? I mean, when I started this, I was considerably lower value than I am now, right? But you've got to have an idea, some girls will be out your league. And if you're really struggling internally, most girls are about your league because, you know, your life's not a very happy place at that moment. So the girl doesn't want to be part of it. And you're just going to get a ton of rejection. So yeah, like deal with that.  Yeah, just go do it. Don't procrastinate. I guess I want to say, how do you deal with, like riding the tube early in the morning? If a girl's not looking at you, but sometimes like you look away and you see in the reflection, she's like checking me out like crazy. That's a big IY, right? But I mean, like, like, do they want us to catch them looking at them? But what, some girls don't want you to catch them? Well, I think the girls don't know what they want. They, I mean, they want to look, I mean, it's like, if you're on a business meeting and the girl across you in the table has got a huge pair of tits, right? Okay, you want to look at them, but you don't want to get caught, right? It's social situation. So you've got to read that. But I mean, a girl on a tube, that I call that an ambush situation because she's not just freely able to leave on the street, stop a girl, she's not interested, she just keeps walking, right? But a girl who's standing, waiting for a friend or a girl who's sitting at a cafe with a full cup of coffee, a girl on tube, right? She's kind of stuck there. So you've got to use your social acuity to treat that a bit different. And normally what I would say in that is you don't go as full on, right? You don't eyeball her, come in with full conviction and be very, very sensitive to IODs, indicate as a disinterest. So let's see if she's got a phone, she's looking, you chat, we'll start talking to her, just across the car, you might say, excuse me, I like X, Y, Z, it's very nice, right? She's going to give you a reaction. And now if her reaction is an IOD, she's like, oh, thanks and looks back at her phone. You're like, okay, look, she's giving me the brush off, it's an awkward situation. But if she lights up and keeps the eye contact, you think, you know what, let's keep going on this, right? And you'll become a little bit more bold. And then it might get to the point where you're saying, look, I got to get off at next stop.  But it's working on the IOIs and the IODs. Great, that's about all the time we have. Give it up for Nick Krauser. Thank you.


Welcome, folks. This is House Corrections and Institutions Committee. We're back on S18. I know we're running probably a little late. Logistically, we're trying to figure out how to get another draft. We're looking at a strikeall amendment to incorporate the amendment that we received this morning from the Attorney General's Office that really is a clarification amendment. And we're thinking the best way to approach this is to do a strikeall instead of having a floor amendment to the bill. But we're trying to find a draftsperson to do the strikeall so that we can get ready to vote. So in the meantime, Representative Taylor has proposed that we change the name of earned time to earn sentenced reduction. And we did put it up the flagpole in the other body. And they're not supportive of that name change. So we just need to get a feel from committee members on that. So I'll open it up to committee members. Sarah, you did have your hand up, right? Yeah. I could just offer. I mean, I think I understand the spirit behind the desire change. But I think when you look at how these programs are spoken about nationally, the name earned time and and good time are really used to describe these kinds of programs. And I just so I really feel like it can cause some confusion, even though it would probably be in there. And I really it's one of those things where I know we're already changing it the language from earned good time to earn time. And that's kind of consistent with what other things are doing. I think I just think at this point, to push for that kind of change, it feels like it could cause it's not just a detail, I think it could kind of cause some confusion. Can I respond or you want me to wait or do you want me to how do you want to handle this? Well, I'm seeing if there's other hands first. Okay. Okay. I want to see if other folks want to weigh in. Karen? Yeah, so I will share. I kind of could go either way. If there was momentum from the committee, I could see changing it. But if the majority of folks are fine, I'm not pulled either way. I think as Representative Coffey was saying, like, I understand the like how it helps define it, but I also understand how it could be confusion. So if that's helpful at all, but just putting it out there, like, I don't have strong opinions either way. Scott? I'm thinking about to what extent earned time is kind of a term that people use. Good times is a term that people use. And earned time seemed pretty closely related to that. So if it's sort of a national brand, you might say, then I think we ought to go with that. I'm thinking back to the Global Warming Solutions Act, which was passed out of the committee that I was on last biennium. And I hated that name because it's not solving global warming.  It's about preparing for climate change, really. But, you know, that was the brand. So other states have passed Global Warming Solutions Act. So that's what we were passing. But, you know, so I guess I guess I'm thinking that I'm going on Sarah's recommendation that earned time is more consistent with what people understand the term to mean nationally. I would just stay with that. Scott, then whoops, you just finished Scott. Lynn? Well, I can go either way. I hate to say that and be a fence sitter, but I do like earned sentence reduction. I think it clearly defines what it is that we're trying to get at. And that's it. We can start a whole new group of words instead of good time. So that's my opinion. Thanks. Linda? So I still find a distinction between earned time and good time nationally. So and how they're used. However, since I did ask that specific question to our alleged council because of that concern and because Vermont did not have that distinction. And it's defined in the bill. I'm comfortable with it with the way it is. Comfortable with earned time? Yes. Other folks. So earned time and good time are a term of art. It's well known throughout the whole justice criminal justice system correctional system. And in looking through. Oh, great. I have a draft. I have a strike off. It just came through. Did you get that? Oh my God. I didn't go through editing, but that's okay. And looking through through it, we'd have to do some quite a few changes here within the bill. It's not just changing the name, the title on section two. We have to get into the language in the bill. Wherever it says earned time would have to be changed for that. And the longer we delay this bill, the more stress we're going to put on DOC and the more complicated it's going to get. In terms of implementing it. Because this will not be accepted in the Senate. And then it will come back to us as an amended version. So you're adding on at least at least a week to 10 days. So we just keep turning in circles. So I just say, leave it the way it is. I mean, that's going to be the reality of the folks. I'm just laying out the way of the land in terms of how it will play out in the Senate and then what the legislative process is after that. Lynn? I hate to admit this, but I didn't read the first sentence. It says an act relating to limiting earned good time sentence reduction. So it's in there. So let's leave it as is. Don't ask why I didn't read the first line. I have no idea, but I just didn't write in the title of that. I mean, I'm just laying out how that process will work. If we do change the name, I'm just laying out how that's going to work. In section two does the same thing. Well, section two says, right, it takes out good. It says earned time reduction of term. So, Kurt? I just did a quick Google search on earned time and corrections, and it does say that 31 states provide this incentive called earned time. So apparently that is truer than I expected. Because I assume the other states were calling it earned good time, and we were going to come up with earned time, and that would not be the same thing. So I'm happy with the earned time as the name for it. Well, I'm not happy with it, but I'm accepting it. Okay, so you would draw it. Madam Chair, do you need Brynn Hare to jump in at this point? She's willing to if you need her. Sure, that would be great. Just in case we need a legal person. So this has been sent to all of our emails, folks. Alice, can we do this where we go down line by line by line just to make sure everyone's on the same page? Sure. Yeah. So this is on our email, and this is a strike all amendment. And the only this is the same. Brynn is coming on with us at some point here. And I know, Phil, you're probably going to be in the process of putting this up on our webpage. I don't know exactly when is the appropriate time to do that, but we can talk about that later. Yeah, if you can be in the process of doing it now, I think it would help because there may be some people who are streaming in, and then they could go to our webpage. I know it's going to take some time to get there, but... So you mean the thing, the document that Eric sent us, you would like it posted? Yes. It's draft number 1.1. Wait a minute. I have a question about that. Yeah. Well, it's because it's a strike all. So that's why I was not sure what the draft would be, but it's really draft 1.1 to the bill. It's not a separate amendment, so it comes in as draft 1.1 to the bill. Because it's very clear that the House, if you read the introduction respectfully report, they have considered the same and recommends that the House propose to the Senate that the bill be amended by striking all, or striking out all after the enacting clause and inserting in lieu thereof, where if you scroll down to section four, this is section four, section three, two, page four, section two, number five, where it says notwithstanding, this is where the language was incorporated from this morning that was highlighted. Notwithstanding, one BSA, section 214, an offender who is serving a sentence for a disqualifying offense, on January 1st, 2021, shall not earn any earned time sentence reduction under the section after the effective date of this act. So that's very clear that for those folks who were sentenced prior to January 1st of these, any of these disqualifying offenses, once the law becomes, once this bill becomes effective, they will not earn any more earned time. That's the only change to the bill. So if we can start. Brandon, thank you on short notice for coming in. We're trying to get this bill out. We had an amendment this morning, a technical amendment from the attorney general's office that Eric worked on. He did it as a separate amendment that would be offered to the bill. And in really thinking how to best present this on the floor, we thought the best ways to do a strike all to and incorporate that amendment. So that's what we're looking at here is the strike all because the goal is to try to vote this out this afternoon. Okay. So forgive me because I'm not and haven't been involved in this bill, but do you have a you have the bill from the Senate and you're trying to vote it out today? Is that correct? Yes, S 18 and Eric has just submitted to me draft 1.1. Okay. Can Phil send a copy? And is Eric isn't available for right now? Is that correct? Eric is unavailable. Okay. He's tied up with other committees. Okay. So he's unavailable. So Phil, have you you can email to brand the draft that Eric just did the strike. Yes, I'm doing that right now. Okay. Welcome to the world of zoom. Okay, it's sent to Bryn. Okay. Thank you, Phil. Welcome. And I know Michelle is not here. I'm not sure when Michelle she was in house judiciary, right? Yeah, I sent her a text just now. Okay. Is she passifying or is she I think she's introducing a bill? Yeah. Okay. And Madam Chair, should this be or Bryn, should this be labeled as draft 1.1 a strike call? S 18 draft 1.1. I think that's all that's needed strike all amendment. That's what it looks like. Yep. draft 1.1. Yeah, I just do S 18 draft 1.1. Yep. And then just put strike all amendment. And my pardon, but is strike all in the way we use it hyphenated or not? I have no idea. I don't think so. Is that print? It says striking out all but we do a strike also. Um, no, it's not hyphenated. All right. All my pay grade. Should be it's a compound adjective. Oh, sorry. I never was good in grammar or pronunciation or any of that stuff. Okay, folks. So let's go through section by section here. Section one really clarifies that going forward when this becomes law that it's sentencing time or any time when they're dealing with making an agreement for a plea agreement or any of that that the victim is informed of the maximum amount of earned time that the defendant could accrue and that earned time only affects when the defendant is eligible to be released is eligible for parole consideration but doesn't necessarily result in the defendant's release. It only means it's eligible. And this is one thing that was really important to the committee that the victims are notified. Hey, Alice, in the very beginning of this draft, they forgot to take out the word good. The second sentence. Right. Second sentence. It's in several places throughout this. It's been taken out. Well, it's a crossed out. Yes, but yeah, but that one isn't crossed out. Wait a minute. Are you in line? Line three, first page. I'm not seeing. I don't before. See where it says to the House of Representatives. That's the title of the bill. That's the title of the bill. Yeah. That's not it. That's not going to be in the green books. Okay, because they've got the word good in there. Right. That's the title of the legislation. Where it's going to be in the green book starts in section one. What about line 16 on page one then? Through good time credit. Mine is not labeled by the names or by the lines. So are you in section one D? You're looking at the draft or the bill, Mike. You got to be on the draft. You got to be on the draft. The one that just sent email to us. Right. Draft 1.1. Yes. Well, the one I got does have numbers. So it's the sentence that says, unless I got the wrong thing here, it says defendant shall serve. In an incarceration through good time credit. It's six lines down and six lines down in section D. Yes. Yeah. It's actually line 16. Mike was right as far as the one I just picked up. They don't have line numbers. Dependent shall serve in incarceration through. There are line numbers on the one that I just posted. Right. That's what I'm looking at. Me too. So, Bryn, that may need to be changed to earn time. Okay. So you just posted one, right, Phil? It's going to be easier to look with the... Yes, I just posted it. Okay. Draft 1.1. Strike all amendment. Okay. That makes it so much easier. And it's got bigger and it's bigger writing. Yeah. That's always good. So, Bryn, I know this is Eric's bill and I know that you worked with us last year on good time. I'm thinking we've got to change that line, whatever it is, line 16 take out good and replace that with earned. Okay. So that's another amendment. Yes, because he's done that throughout the bill. Would you leave credit in or take credit out? Oh, they're getting credit. So you got to leave credit in through earned time credit. Good catch, Michael. Yeah, that is a good catch. So in section two, the title has been changed and this is talking the rules have been changed, the implementing earned time program. And then it goes in line 13, earned time program. Lines 18 and 19, bring in the interrupted sentences. It's not, we cannot earn time if you're serving an interrupted sentence. And an interrupted sentence is sometimes people just come in on the weekend and then go back out and that's geared for folks sometimes so they can keep their job. And then this is the top of page three explains that the program, those are the offenders ability to participate in receiver and time in the program shall be determined pursuant to subdivision five of this subsection, then we'll have to go down the subdivision five because that is, that is where we have the not the standing language. Correct, yep. Number four, line 17, page five, page three. Yeah.  Where are you? Under disqualifying offenses. The first one was arson causing death. I'm on s 18. That's what I'm looking at is s 18. As it came over from the Senate. Yeah. I have murder and violation of 13 vsa 2301. Me too. I have murder. I don't have arson anywhere. Yeah, it was struck out that whole portion was struck. It's that may have been the version is originally introduced. We're looking at the version that passed the Senate. Yeah, I'm sorry introduced. Yeah. Yeah, you got to go to the one that passed the Senate. So what does the red italics mean? Brink any I don't have that. I think that's the language that got changed. Red italics. Is that true? Brink when we if it's a strike all that then the official version shows the version that was introduced with red strike out. And the red italics are the new language as added in the strike all. So it's just the difference between the official version and the unofficial version. Okay, thank you. Karen, but she can't. That's what I said. That's what I thought. And I said that and I said, but I would ask you just to reconfirm that I was correct in my understanding. So I know I said I leave it open, but we're she has the ability to come into the committee room. She's not testifying. So she are we going to do it in a few moments? I think we're ready. Are we ready folks? Just say we're going to be voting here. So you make the motion. I'm going to pass it. I mean, I'm going to second it. Right. I mean, I don't want to cut her out, but she may choose to stay where she wants to be. And confirm, are we getting another draft or are we voting on this draft? We the motion would be to vote the bill out and vote the strike all amendment out favorably as amended, which would be probably draft 1.2. I think because it's just well, it'll be 2.1. 2.1. It'll be draft 2.1. The only difference is in the very first section one there. That was a pickup, a great pickup. Online 16 where we changed good to earn. That's the only change. And I think we'd be okay with that. So you're texting Michelle, right? Yeah, I did. And I'm keeping my eye on my text. I told her she can pop in. Yeah, this is where we were in the committee. We just go across the hall and pull her in. But if she can choose not to vote on it too, did you allow, did you let her know that that she can choose not to vote on it? She doesn't want to miss anything in Senate, in House Judiciary? Yeah, I just, in my first text, I just said I just wanted to let you in case you wanted to vote. And then just let her, no, she might be testifying. So she said, so I don't know. Can we do the vote and hold it open for a little bit until we adjourn for the afternoon? Well, after we vote, we'll be adjourning. Okay. All right. I can throw something out for conversation and filling out this form. I do need to list the reporter. Do we have that? We're working on that. We have, we've got one, I think. So do I just send it to Phil without that on that? No, no, we'll do it after the vote. Okay. We're trying, we were trying to figure it out so that right now we're thinking we're planning on having Linda Joy, because we need someone that really went through this in the past. And because there's some legal issues that came up here this morning, I think it's really important to have someone with some legal background on the floor. It looks like Michelle is testifying now. Is she? Yep. Well, I'm ready for a vote. We can do it. It must be on you too. Yeah. Yeah. Any, so she hasn't had a word here. Well, let's, let's make the motion. I would entertain a motion to pass out draft 2.1, which we understand the only difference from draft 1.1 to 2.1 is the word change on line 16 of the first page that changes good to earn. That's the only change. I second. Well, somebody's got to move it. Somebody's got to move it first. You move it, I'll second it. Okay. And Marsha seconded it. We vote out draft 2.2, 2.1, S18 favorably. Any further discussion? If not, Karen, please call the roll. Uh, Representative Taylor? Yes. Representative Sullivan? Yes. Representative Morgan? Yes. Representative Martell? Yes. Representative Dolan? Yes. Representative Campbell? Yes. Representative Boslin? Representative Bachelor? Yes. Representative Morrissey? Yeah. Representative Coffey? Yes. Representative Emmons? Yes. Yes. Thank you. Thank you all. So if we leave this open, we're kind of, some of us are going to have to stay here to still meet. So I'm not sure what to do at this point. Kurt? Kurt? There's something I'd like to say before we leave S12 completely. You mean S18? Yeah, that one, whatever. Whatever we just voted on. We're all ready to get rid of it. Yes. With you. They all gone. She just finished. If she's going to pop in. Okay. Okay. And Madam Chair, should I just send you a via Bryn version, the 2.1. Okay. So I believe I should post that as a draft. And then when we get the final copy from the drafts people, I can post it as recommended by House Committee on Corrections and Institutions. Is that correct? Yes. Okay. Committee, I need to leave now. Is that okay? That's great. Thank you, Bryn. Thank you, Bryn. So you're going to send this to the editors? Yeah. 2.1? Yes. Thank you. Thank you, Bryn. Thank you, Bryn. Thank you, Bryn. Bye-bye. So poor Michelle is going to come in here cold turkey. Well, I told her that we were holding the vote open for you. So like please come now though. It's going to be hard for her to process where we are in terms of a strike call. I think it'll be okay. I'm just going to say we're voting. You know, the motion was vote S18 out favorably with the language that was proposed this morning from the Attorney General's office. Here she comes. Because that's what we did, right? Should I tell her what the vote is for now? I let her know where it was. She would have heard that. Yeah. Welcome, Michelle. I know you're juggling a lot of things, but we we're at the point of having a draft and we're ready to vote. So the question, the motion on the floor is that we pass out S18 favorably that incorporates the the amendment that we discussed this morning from the Attorney General's office, that amendment. So we have done the roll and the vote right now is 10 in favor. And you're the last person to vote. Okay, I would actually like to vote now. So Karen, call the roll. Michelle, you're muted. Yep. Yep. Okay. So Representative Boslin? No. Great. So the vote was 1010 on the bill. Linda is going to be the reporter. So when we get the edited draft of 2.1, this has to be sent. I'm going to let the clerk's office know that we have a bill coming to strike all. And Linda, you're going to have to, I'm not sure if you sign something, because this is a bill that gets both normally you would take the original bill and the strike all amendment and walk down to the House clerk's office and they would have you sign the amendment. So I'm not sure how all of this is done electronically. Linda, I can send you the instructions that committee assistance got that explains what your responsibility is. Apparently we as committee assistance aren't able to submit it to the clerk's office. So I'm letting the clerk's office I'll figure it out that we have a confusing that we have a strike call to S 18 just voted it 1010 and Representative Sullivan, you're the only Sullivan, right? As of this year, yes. So I am just sending the clerk's office an email because they text they send an email out to the chairs every day to see if we have anything. I'm going to say it needs to go to editing. Representative Emmons, is it okay for me to go back to judiciary? They're still taking tests. We're done for the day and we're probably not going to need tomorrow. Okay. Thank you very much. So I sent it out. So I think we're done for work today and then I'm not anticipating working. I still have my little speech to go. I know. So our work is done for today and we're not planning on meeting tomorrow. We're still working on scheduling and maybe when we finish up here and get done. I don't know if Mary and Sarah you might have a little bit of time to work with Phil just to kind of confirm up our schedule for next week for that. Yes, I can do that. Okay. That should be fine. I just have to a little after four get off. Yes. Okay. Kurt? Yes, this is kind of in the vein of Representative Dole and wanting to know how we can avoid these things in the future or how we can improve on the process. And it's part of this that we haven't discussed much. But the fact that we did it two years ago or so or last year using emergency rules is has turned into I think it's added to the confusion because the emergency rules started the process January 1st. And there was we didn't have the public hearings as part of emergency rules. It was when they were developing the real world real rules that the public hearings issue came up. And this whole thing started percolating. It may very well have percolated anyway. But the fact was we used emergency rules when there was no emergency. And that I think caused a problem because we could not say. And even in the justice oversight, I believe meetings when they talked about this, we could not say well, we were in an emergency. And so we had to move quickly. And in fact, there was no emergency and we used emergency rules. And I think as a lesson for the future, we have to be very careful when we use emergency rules when they really there is no emergency. That's all I want to say. Thanks. And I know that was you kept bringing that up last year when we're working it through. I was I was trying to avoid saying I told you so. Yeah, well, the the bill did come back, did come over from the Senate last year. S 133. And it was quite clear that some folks in the other body wanted the emergency rules. And we appreciate that. And it was not going anywhere. Sarah, I'm sorry. I thought you had dropped it. I thought also that part of it was because the year before we had passed S 112, which was earned good time. And because it would have come into play play on a normal on a normal rulemaking process. But because with S 338, which was justice reinvestment to it encompassed earned good time that they didn't think it was. I thought the thinking was is it wasn't really fair to stop earned good time as we're developing this new bill and delay it even further. And that's why it was an emergency rule. That's that was my understanding at the time. Is that accurate? That's fair to say. And there's a that's a combination of why it came over in S 133 in the Senate bill last year with the emergency rules. And people were pretty adamant that they wanted the program to get up and running. So we had was no there was no emergency. There was no flood. There was no horrendous thing that was going to happen. That's why we had to put in the pack in the had to also put in there the fact that this would automatically be considered an emergency and override that if it were a real emergency, we wouldn't have had to put that in there. But one thing that we did do we did extend the date out of when the the rules needed to be the formal the permanent rules, not the emergency rules, but the other rules needed to be in place. Originally, I believe that was in I think that was in the middle of March, middle of February or middle of March. And we extended that out quite a bit to the end of June. So that's how we at least got some time on that. And so I think this is it for the week. I think tomorrow may be a short day on the floor because it is Good Friday. And we do traditionally honor that. And I'm not sure if there's much on the floor, but I'm not anticipating any committee time tomorrow. We're going to shift gears a little bit. We're going to start working next week on s 45, which is now that you get your head around earn time while somebody's incarcerated. We're going to be talking about probation, which is the front end before anybody ever enters into an incarcerated setting and how there can we worked on this last year about having some form of credit for time served credit for time served earn time on your probation, where if you are behaving and living by the conditions that the court has placed on you, you're not doing technical violations or new new prime of sorts, you could get possibly a shorter probation term. What we've done this time is have a check in about halfway through your probation for that. And that was a result of work that was done with the council state governments last year and the working group with that. So it it's a little different than what we just went through for folks who are incarcerated. These are for folks who are on probation. So you're going to get educated on what probation is because that's through the courts. We're also trying to set up some time to hear from the chair of the parole board. So folks can understand parole, parole is at the other end after a person's incarcerated. So you've got probation on the front end before they're incarcerated. You have furlough, which is determined by DOC. And then you have parole, which is determined by the parole board. And there's different conditions set on each one of those statuses by different entities. So we're going to start shifting gears a little bit. We're going to work on S45. And then we're going to do a lot more background information in terms of corrections just to help folks understand corrections a little bit better. And then we also have the RFP feasibility study that BGS and DOC put out with Hock, H-O-K. That looks like that will be available the week of April 12th. How much did they pay for that study? We put in $200,000, $250,000. We put in the money for that. Well, we knew most of what they reported to us. Yeah, but that made some foundation for what's happening for their second part. So that's going to be the week of the 12th, April. We're going to try to have a joint meeting with Senate Institutions Committee on that. That will have to be an afternoon meeting. I'm recommending more on a Tuesday than on a Wednesday or Thursday. And I do go over to Senate Institutions on Tuesday at 1.30 to finish the walkthrough on the Capitol which will probably take a good hour and a half if you're lucky. So, Kurt? Yeah, there was a very good presentation to the Council of State Governments about probation and how it works in Vermont at one of their meetings. If anybody wants the link to that presentation, I can probably find it just in preparation for probation. So what might be good, Kurt, if you find that, just email that to the members and Phil. And maybe once we start working on S45, Phil can post that on our webpage. Okay, I'll do that. That would be good to do that. It's very helpful. Anything else before we close up? I want to thank you all. We came together. We did the work on the bill. I want to thank you. And I'm glad it's behind us at this point. And then the report on the floor, Linda, we'll do the report on the floor, but we are there to back her up because you know, there may be quite a few questions on the floor and we're there to back up our committee member who is reporting this. We're not going to leave folks stranded out on the floor. And Linda, you know that at any point you can yield that, and hopefully I can help. If not, I'll yield to Sarah or Kurt. You got it. Yeah, Phil will be there holding our hands. Thank you all for butch. Yeah, I wish you could have butch report this. And you're absolutely right. Butch is the one that should be reporting this. I'll negotiate with him. I'll tell him. I'll text him and say butch, you're reporting this. We're getting the house to suspend the rules. That would be a good April false. So on YouTube, thank you folks for listening in. Our week is done. And we'll see