Good morning folks another sunshiney day here in British Columbia. I Slept at the customer, so I was able to get unloaded a half hour before they even open So now I'm headed to my next customer in Kamloops, British Columbia about an hour and a half from here Unload there and I might even get the chill-a-wack tonight My next load up delivers that in a chill-a-wack probably get them unloaded this afternoon yet And then I have my last delivery those last two stops that were supposed to go to Vancouver Island They're going to Delta BC, which is sort of in the Vancouver area to me being from Manitoba. It's Vancouver You ask any of the locals there. They will say it is definitely not Vancouver. It is Delta But you look at it on a map, it's all the same city. I don't know what's going on big cities man So we'll see what we can all get done today. Let's get on the road We got our second delivery done today And I just called the next one that I was thinking we might have to do tomorrow morning And it turns out we're gonna be able to do it today So we better hurry. We've got to get down a chill-a-wack before they close. Have you ever noticed that there's a ton of brake checks? Going west into BC towards Vancouver and very few if any brake checks leaving British Columbia They're very concerned That we can get to Vancouver safely They're not as concerned about our brakes Going back to Alberta Have you ever noticed that? There's like hardly any. Is there even any? Think of any else top of my head. Brake checks on the trans-Canada Leaving BC. Why is there so many going this way but not as many going that way? Isn't it just as important to check your brakes going this way? I remember when This was the SO truck stop in Chilliwack, British Columbia You got Chevron across the street over there and Shell Flying J. It's an old one. I Sort of remember going in here I left my keys in here once after they closed and I couldn't get into my truck at night. This was like back in 2009 driving a Volvo back then and Left my key on the counter and they locked up because I went to the restaurant to eat across the street and By the time I realized I left my keys in there They locked up and gone home and I had to call someone to come and break into my truck for me Like a tow truck driver or like to get into my truck So that I could sleep at least in my bed and then Go get the keys in the morning Wasn't the nicest of truck stops, but it was the biggest parking wise in the area I mean all of that back there used to all be parking as well But now there's a new truck wash that popped up over there And I guess they own all that land and they blocked it off with those cement blocks there Yeah, I remember I walked up that mountain once there's a nice road that winds up the side of that mountain Walked up there That's the restaurant over there And that used to be a liquor store Now it's a cannabis store lots of memories when you travel around on the road for a Few years can't imagine the memories that are locked up inside my dad's head. He's been doing this for a long time Right easel at the back of the lot here. I'm surprised. They don't have some kind of like cement curb or something to prevent drivers from going too far Because imagine if his axles were a little further back and if he pushed it back a little too far His truck would get sucked into that ditch and just smoke that building and probably put a hole in it I bet you it's happened already. I bet you anything. It's happening if you can think of it It's happened. It's already happened So we're not going to stay here just stopping for a weasel here to stretch his legs and to get a coffee Now we're gonna go to Langley Spend the night there. Hopefully there'll be a parking spot there. There's only like probably like 10 to 15 spots Pretty early though these lids always leak. This one's shiny though. Are they all shiny or did I just notice it now? I like the old ones better Okay. I also wash out myself a Canadian maple I'm very excited. All right diesel.  Oh I'm saving it though. I'm saving it. I don't know for when for like two minutes from now At least I can say I'm saving it and I'm not just hey, I don't need eight hours I'm just going to Langley. So let's meander our way over that way Sneak out of here. Hopefully there'll be a spot there There always has been every time I've been there But you do have to get there early because it fills up really fast.  Oh, this truck is gonna have to move Thank you. That's where you're going bud. And first of all don't park in the driveway You know gotta worry. Let's see this here. I think this one instead Actually think I might take this all filled up already a jaws barely backed in and everything else just plugged up Very busy place except there's a car taking up a parking spot over there Funny little insert to add right here as I was editing this all up That car that was parked there Was not supposed to be there and I wasn't gonna say anything because I don't know the rules of the land here but the owner Came out and asked the car to move because there was a lot of trucks trying to park here and a lot of trucks From out of province that needed the spot to park But the car she was just sitting there and apparently she was holding the spot for her husband And the owner said that that's not allowed and asked her to move or something like this Anyways, the truck came in wanted to back into the spot and the lady in the car caused a huge scene she did like a massive Karen and And got all mad started yelling and then pulled out her phone and true Karen fashion and started filming everything and yelling at Everybody and screaming because she wanted to save the spot for her husband Yes, she's being nice for her husband, but she wasn't allowed to do it and the owner said you can't do this Anyways, it escalated to the point where the police showed up three police cruisers Showed up here and everybody's of course getting out of their trucks to talk and you know Everyone said wow never seen someone's excitement here before it's three cops for this one lady in her car And apparently she had a flat tire. I don't know how her tire went flat So she had to sit there in front of all these drivers staring at her while she She had her I guess when her husband got here he changed the tire for I don't know what happened But suddenly there's just cops all over the place and and and they were here for like an hour And I'm what you're talking to the guy trying to figure out what was going on because I was back here editing this up for you guys But Apparently this is one of those times when justice was actually served You are not supposed to plug up big truck spots with your cars Doesn't matter what the reason is because other people need them and it's first come first serve especially when the owner tells you Not to do that. Anyways, I don't know what happened, but it Must have escalated quite a bit that I didn't even realize I was so into my editing here that three place cruisers had to show up and Anyway, a little insert in there for you excitement for the night I ever well diesel Oh, I think I like stretched my shoulder a little bit too much while I was working on the trailer before oh Well, I just needs a good sleep. I'm guessing Yeah, it's got a little bit of a kink in it. Oh I was pushing myself up onto the second level I'm getting old these things affect me right away as again Anyways, it's not so bad. I'll be fine That's it for today everybody tomorrow We go unload our last delivery in Delta and then we just swing around the corner to New Westminster I think it's still in Delta. I don't know we got to take that load back to Manitoba back to Winnipeg And then I'll be going home for about a day just pretty much for a reset this time We have a contractor coming to our place to Take a look at our where we want to put up our fence Hopefully we can get that underway. I'd love to get that done before winter But we're kind of assuming it's probably gonna get done in spring because you know winters Winters pretty much here already so we'll see he can at least come take a look at it and Give us a more Solid quote. He gave us a reasonable quote or estimate already But he's got to come take a look at it see what we want to get done and see what he can do Because we want a fence around our yards that our dogs can run around and we don't have to have him on a leash all the time But we'll worry about that next week tomorrow. We'll unload we'll reload and we'll book it back through the mountains We should get at least or we should get past Calgary tomorrow We should get it up to medicine hat That's where I'd like to get to and they might be pushing it between Brooks, Alberta and medicine hat, Alberta So that I can get home the next day in one shot. We'll see what happens. That means I would get home Saturday night Oh, I'd be home for our family gathering and we're having a late Thanksgiving family gathering Dad was in the hospital for Thanksgiving so we couldn't do our gathering last weekend So we're gonna do it this next weekend and I told him I wouldn't be able to make it So I might be able to surprise them Except now that I said it on YouTube is not gonna be a surprise for them Well, we'll see we'll see maybe I can get back in time for the gathering I think they're gonna do it for Sunday for lunch or supper and I might be back Saturday night But oh that's gonna be pushing getting after rush so hard But maybe I can get back like Sunday afternoon and we can do it for supper. I don't know. We'll see what happens Enough talking. We'll talk to you guys tomorrow. Take care. Don't forget to subscribe and tell your friends about the channel and get them to subscribe to Talk to you later


Good morning everyone. This is the live broadcast of a special edition of the twist podcast And I am very excited to be here today as always Remember that you can subscribe to us on Twitch YouTube Facebook Instagram Twitter all the places that podcasts are found Look for this week in science our website is twist org. I'm Dr. Kiki and This next half hour it may be edited for the podcast But what you're gonna see is the full unfiltered unedited live stream. So I'm glad that you might be here with us live now without any further to do this is Twist with a special science interview recorded on Friday, October 22nd, 2021 Happy day of science everyone. Welcome to this week in science. Thank you for joining us. We have a wonderful show ahead Today, I am speaking with Dr. Siddhartha Ribeiro who is a Brazilian neuroscientist science communicator and deputy director of the Brain Institute at Universidade Federal de Rio Grande da Norte I do not speak Portuguese and I know I am probably not pronouncing any of this correctly My accents my accents are atrocious Dr. Ribeiro has written one of the most comprehensive books on the history and science of dreams Oracle of night and without any further ado, I'd love to Welcome him to the show. Dr. Ribeiro. Thank you for joining me this morning Thank you for having me. Good morning to everyone at home at home at office. It's a pleasure to be here Right off the bat we're talking about the science the culture the history of dreams What did you dream last night anything interesting? It's interesting. I had a dream of a little metal car that was Going through my over my body And this is because of an experience I had with my younger son a few days ago So I could recognize this element now what it really means. I haven't had the time to interpret it today And as a neuroscientist, how do you approach The interpretation of dreams. I know that historically we have Approached them and in your book you cover this Very comprehensively the the history of how we have but how do you come to interpret dreams at this point in time? huh So well, so for you know in the antiquity and throughout the middle ages and to this day among Several indigenous populations people believe and believed in the past The dreams can predict the future And science has come to see this as superstition. So in the past hundred years This has fallen in this grace and people have focused on the physiological properties of sleep and what it does to your body And then we started to learn in the past 20 years that in fact Well, actually we started to learn over the past hundred years But with a lot of good evidence in the past 20 years that in fact the brain is really processing a lot of memories And and changing the way that we represent the world and changing the way in which we can cope with the world And actually giving a good reason to believe that our ancestors Evolved an oracle an oracle but not a deterministic oracle that really could predict the future Rather a probabilistic oracle So a simulation of possible futures of counterfactuals of things that may happen And will and the simulation gives you some Insights into how to behave in order to be more more fit in the environment to adapt to the to the environment This is a notion that converges a lot of data from neuroscience and psychology Uh and agrees is aligned with knowledge from from from several traditions from That that have roots in the prehistory of of men and women So I think we need to and I think we need to to look into dreaming as something very important for our evolution And something that needs to be rescued What do you mean by rescued? Well sleep and dreaming are uh in peril Are we talking about yeah, are we talking about all the people who through coveted were have have said I can't sleep I'm stressed out. I have anxiety people who are taking Sleep aids to help them sleep. Is this what you mean? Yes, we're living a very unhealthy life We we pay no attention to sleep and dreaming. We pay little attention to nutrition and exercise most people And when those things are not aligned It's almost impossible to stabilize and people start taking drugs to to go to sleep and then to wake up And then to do this and then to do that and they're not doing the basics They're not doing the homework and the a good night of sleep is is the main first thing you should do right if you have a good night of sleep you'll You know, basically clean your body of all those toxins that we generate during the waking life and also build a lot of Molecules that we need proteins and release hormones many important things We'll do the this triage of memories the separation of what's to be kept what's to be forgotten what's to be Changed and restructured to create to generate creativity and then on top of that we have this more complex level of of simulation of behaviors And and we have a lot of social implications So yes, I think especially in the because of the pandemic we're dealing with collective trauma And and dreams have been away and shared dreams and shared dreams of for the common good have been You know something that we our ancestors relied upon Over ages and ages and ages and this worked for them and it worked for us therefore Right, otherwise we wouldn't be here and somehow we are we are in need of going back to this to those basics If we are to heal as a as a society as a planet What does neuroscience and the research that you've done tell us about those shared dreams? There were reports of very common threads For the dreams that people have had throughout the pandemic, especially during lockdown And then historically we also have the you know flying dreams or falling dreams or you know waking up in front of Your your class having to give a presentation and you're not wearing any clothes, you know, these are common elements To dreams that people have reported Is this something that we can match in any way to activity in the brain? well dreams evolved for purpose dreams evolved with a function and perhaps with many functions related to survival The pandemic put us in a situation in which everybody was Reminded of the fear of death of impending death and and then the death of people that we love So it's really a tragedy and it's something that happened before Many many times in the past of humankind, but of course it never happened With such a global scale So so the fact that dreams Appeared the nightmares for example appeared all over the world with similar motives Is not surprising at all if we know something about archetypes and about common motives and culture It's it's easy to understand how a common fear will elicit common images Um Now what this does to your brain? Is something that we know indirectly mostly from from animal models Right, we know that when you have a very a very strong negative memory That can generate a trauma Nightmares recursive nightmares will will ensue And in the brain this will mean the creation of a very strong memory that at the beginning in the beginning will be Basically an electrical memory reverberating through several brain circuits It looks such as the hippocampus the cerebral cortex the amygdala and eventually this will this activity will subside and will give rise to Morphological changes changes at the level of synapses changes in in the way they are modeled and remodeled And and then we can keep memories for a long period of time in the case of those memories that are acquired with Acquired with such strong emotional value We we tend to not get rid of them without some help Right and in the book you talk a lot about uh the difference between slow wave and rapid slow slow wave sleep and rapid eye movement and these different Different parts of sleep that and how they contribute not just to dreams but also to that remodeling process Can you talk about what we understand now? Absolutely Well across the night we go through several sleep cycles that comprise different sleep stages The main stages are slow wave sleep and rem sleep rapid eye movement sleep Right slow wave sleep as name says is dominated by brain waves and the cerebral cortex that have very large amplitude And very very low frequency. So they're very just very big waves that will promote A periodic activation and inactivation of neurons so neurons will burst but in between the bursts the bursts there'll be silence and in the silence There's no opportunity for for a cohesive conscious experience to occur So if you wake people up during this stage people will say well, I'm not dreaming of anything Perhaps they have some thoughts related to like regular chores, but but nothing like a movie Or or cinematic cinematographic experience. So this is the first half of the night The second half of the night though is dominated by REM sleep when the cortex becomes super active And and and then dreams can can occur But these dreams will not just be the the product of the reactivation of neurons Therefore the reactivation of memories But also they will be the product or will be guided or oriented by specific desires and fears Which are signaled Among many other mechanisms through dopamine So basically depending on what you are aiming in your life and depending on what your problems are This is what will set the direction for the dream Now if you have many different problems, which is the case for most of us in contemporary societies Your dream will become a mix of things and often not not really easily easy to be interpreted But if you have a very clear concern A very serious thing going on in your life Then your dreams if you pay attention to your dreams, they will really really condense In images sometimes metaphorical sometimes very literal. What is going on in your life? And does the this activation of the different neurons its dopamine is is triggering all this what happens to The a standard mantra of neuroscience is neurons that Fire together wire together. So is it during this rapid the fast eye movement? That we have the increased firing and so increased Wiring and so hardening of memories within our neural architecture. Yeah, this is this is a very good question It is doing rm sleep that many molecular mechanisms Uh of long-term memory consolidation will be triggered such as the phosphorylation of kinases and then immediate early gene expression And then late genes being expressed hours and days later that will transform those short lived memories into long-term memories So this is yes, correct And also it is during rm sleep That's uh the process of migration of memories within the brain will be promoted So so memories do not stay in the same place. They're constantly moving. You you may remember the same person over decades, but you Probably not using the same neurons at all, right? So you're using different networks that keep changing Uh and and rm sleep has a lot to do with that now more recent studies such as the work of when be all gone at nyu Showing that uh during slow wave sleep. There is the addition of many small synaptic connections So basically like a wiring everybody And then during some rm sleep Most of those get eliminated and some of those get enriched.  So you have the optimal uh neural connections to allow you to respond to situations Effectively it seems like it really mirrors that process Yes, yes, and and I think now this is really inspiring people doing computation This is inspiring this is inspiring machine learning It it strikes me the idea that you that you mentioned about uh the long-term memory aspect of remembering somebody over several decades and Back when I started grad school in a in a neuroscience neurophysiology program. It was The the idea we didn't understand how nmda receptors were involved in long-term memory We didn't understand how long-term memories continued to be propagated. So how do these neurons exist? How long And this idea that you said That long-term memories don't necessarily exist within a single neural network for 10 years for your entire life that they're getting shifted between networks That to me is An amazing advancement in our understanding When when did we come to start understanding this idea? Well, we know since the 1940s That parts of the brain that are necessary for us to learn something new say in the declarative realm the name of a person Or or the recollection of an event so Namely the hippocampus that if if you lack a hippocampus you cannot learn new things right to become a music from them from them on At the time it was noted that uh, so the first the famous patient hm That became the the the most famous example of this kind of of condition um Was also a person that was they had lost the memories that preceded the the surgery So the memories that had just been acquired Were erased as well, but not the memories from childhood or adolescence. So it became uh Understood over several decades that declarative memories require the hippocampus in order to be Installed in the brain but then over the the course of days and weeks and months and years They they move to the cerebral cortex whether they move or they migrate or they propagate Or they get anchored that several different words have been used and they're all metaphors We don't know exactly what's going on Some research suggests that they always keep a foot in the hippocampus that they always have a connection to the hippocampus But it's no longer necessary to retrieve the memory Okay, um, and and we so so we know that there's this Overall disengagement of the hippocampus over time and overall engagement of the cortex over time Uh, the first evidence that r.m's leap could be related to that was published by myself in 2002 Uh in the journal of neuroscience showing that There were waves of immediate ilegine expression related to as you said before an indie receptor Causing entry and so on that these these Waves would progress from the hippocampus to the cortex Over time and then over the years different studies from my own group and from other groups Started to establish that indeed there there is a sleep dependent process there that relates to memory migration If you want to maybe it's a good word for it. Um, but I think that What is remarkable? I think uh, if we if we take a A distance and we think of what we learned in the past hundred years Is how neuroscience with all the molecular and neurophysiological Investigations that really characterized its advancements in the past decades has converged on many things that were well understood At the end of the 19th the beginning of the 20th century by people like Freud and Jung So there's a convergence between neuroscience and depth psychology Which is remarkable and I make a point in my book of of going over them and giving the references and again Show you know sharing with people what neuroscience and and cognitive psychology have have learned knowingly or unknowingly about those links I think yeah, there is there is some amount of synchronicity in you know looking at I mean we've seen this in science over and over again talking with uh paleontologists who looked at morphology of fossils to To place animals within the animal kingdom and now they're looking at genetic evidence and they're digging deeper and the genetic evidence is often Mapping to what these relationships. We previously thought they were Although now we're getting new information and so it seems like this is kind of what's happening between cognitive science and psycho psychotherapy and modern neuroscience with these molecular molecular techniques that we're using today So yes, yeah That's fascinating. So to keep going on this. Um, I wanted to know also about the animal aspect of this we uh You've done animal research, but we're also we're talking about this from a very human perspective and our understanding of hippocampal involvement and brain activation very often is from these animal studies So do we think that animals dream the same way that humans do that perhaps they have these You know if they are cognitively consciously aware of certain things, you know, they're visually A puma a large cat is a predator who potentially is after a deer They're going to have these images in their in their head is Do we imagine that this is what they're dreaming as they dream? Yes, yes, but let's qualify that answer. Okay All animals pretty much all animals From sponges up Have some sort of quiet sleep Some sort of quiescent states in which they don't move their bodies are if they have color changes They are not changing their colors if they have whatever they they normally do. They're not doing that they're just very quiet with eyes closed and and and And not unresponsive to the environment. Okay, so this is sleep is a very general thing in the animal Kingdom Active sleep a form of sleep in which the nervous system is very active, but the body is quiescent Is restricted to a few groups, but but this is increasing in the beginning. We thought it was only in mammals then birds Then reptiles when they are within a particular temperature range But this is all vertebrates And but then recently it's hard to measure a fish Yes, yes, but well the people have shown that they To the extent that we know they they lack it, but we may be surprised soon I mean, of course. Yes, there's so much to do and so much. We don't know In among invertebrates though It has been shown in the cuttlefish recently my lab showed it in the octopus And then also there was a recent demonstration Of of active sleep in drosophila in the fruit fly For what we know these groups evolved They're so distant in evolution that it is possible that active sleep evolved separately, perhaps twice or or even three times In those groups independently probably reflecting a very strong selective pressure Right, but but to answer your question If we assume that these states are actually Analogous and that they are concurrent with with some subjective experience such as what we consider dreaming It's only among mammals that it lasts more than let's say a couple of minutes In the octopus for example the episodes will last about 30 seconds 40 seconds Yeah, and then the yeah and the octopus though. It's amazing to watch because they change colors and the cuttlefish as well Don't think they're extra they move their eyes, but they are unresponsive to stimulation This is what we showed in this paper Uh early this year. Um, so so for so answering your question What we call dreaming is probably something specific of mammals because it's only in mammals that you'll see episodes lasting Above half an hour 40 minutes up to an hour in the platypus above an hour And then within one hour you can really tell a story You can really enact complex social behaviors and and come and see the consequences of the the actions that people that the dreamer undertakes Does the neural activity during this active state? During REM sleep. Does it occur faster? Are we experiencing dreams at real time or in a? a faster Synthesized brain time This was a question that people Started to ask many decades ago in the 70s people believed that it was it was There was time compression some evidence in the 90s and and and in 2000s suggested some changes in In in in temporal processing even data coming from animal models I don't think we we we have an answer to that studies with lucid dreaming So when people so when you become aware that you're dreaming right and and then you you acquire some control over your own actions in the dream and and sometimes over the entire setting um When people do experiments under lucid dreaming doing lucid dreaming Uh, and they try to to to perform some tasks If the tasks are easy, they seem to use the same amount of time That they would use in in in the waking life, but when the tasks are difficult, they seem to be slower So it's probably It's if I based on the evidence that we have now I think it there's probably a continuity there and and and and and there's a continuity also in the imagination We know for example from the work of uh, steven coslin In harvard that when you try to imagine something in detail It you you have more uh activation of the brain, but it's also Harder to do right so Just like in in waking life. What you do is the effort is proportional to the work That makes sense it absolutely does As we're getting to the end here. I just want to I want to come back to The book itself and Your reason for writing it it is this is is this is your this is like your life's work This is everything from the science to the history to the art, you know our exploring our Our life through dreams and our brain through dreams. Why was it important for you to write this book? ha um Well, I I didn't know I was going to be a sleep and dream researcher when I began phd But then after a few months because of what happened to me and I describe it in the book I'm not going to give a spoiler I decided to go in that direction and this is my main thing to this day I investigate things that are related to it like psychedelics Uh and schizophrenia and so on but but this is my main thing Um, and I have personal reasons which I also include in the group in the book that come from my childhood um But the book is really it came from uh a vision that I had When I was in between the phd and the postdoc I was I finished my phd uh in new york and I had six months to begin my postdoc in in north carolina And and I had this feeling Because I had just written my thesis I had this feeling that if I could just assemble all the information that existed that was already available That I could find in libraries, uh on the internet Uh About the different aspects of different biological psychological anthropological anthropological mythological historical aspects regarding dreaming I would be able to sort of tell the history of Of the human mind the evolution of the human mind using this this threat But I needed to put things to assemble things in the right order order and I didn't have this knowledge But I had this vision that I should that I would be able to do it And I decided to do it as a very As a very relaxed project. So over the years I every time I stumbled upon something that Belonged to this very long Uh narrative that I wanted to build I I got it. I got that book. I got that That video I got that that thoughts I got that paper I got so I started to and of course I my my laboratory I I went from being a postdoc to being Uh ahead of a laboratory and I started doing my own Uh to conduct to coordinate my own research in the directions that I wanted Uh, and so it took 19 years to do that. But I Of course in the in at the very end in the past three years Then it was it became a problem in my life You know, it was something that I needed to do on a constant basis Otherwise it wouldn't finish ever because it's it's long right at a certain point. You're like, okay This needs to actually happen. I need to go from data collecting to synthesizing. Yes. Yes. Yeah But it was a pleasure and and and it was very emotional for me because it of course You're talking about dreaming you're talking about Very introspective things. So I talked about myself as well But in a way, I mean it's it's centered in in the science It's centered in it's actually a whole book to explain to give a materialist explanation for this For our relationship to dreams in in in history Which is I think a very important Place to put it because going back to where you started its dreams have played a part in our cultures Throughout history and affected human history. And so it's this relationship between mind and culture and the the The reality that we construct through our actions Maybe because of our dreams sometimes Yes, absolutely. This is the point. Yeah. Yeah, I get it. I really get it We do have a question if you have a moment. There's a question from the chat room What's the difference between acting on a dream or controlling a dream? You mentioned lucid dreaming How I'm supposed to Supposed to how can I train for it? How can you how can you actually get into a mode? To do the lucid dreaming? Okay so in in several eastern traditions such as in yoga in in india so Called nidra yoga nidra or in the case of tibet yoga milan. These are different names for For the practice of controlling your dreams Uh, and this can be be achieved From within the dream or from the from the waking state towards the dream These things can be achieved in both ways even though most people go from the dream towards that state So so they're they're they're like very old traditions of how to attain that and then you have the new age approach The the the science of lucid dreaming Really began in the late 70s and to a large extent because of the work of steven laberj Then working with william william dements in in ucla and and and since then this this was something that was in the fringe of neuroscience In the 80s, but now is at the very center. It's very hot and people are studying it in different labs and important labs Such as julio tononi's lab and and many others in the world If you want to achieve lucid dreaming you can do a variety of things you can go towards Uh Waking up in the middle of the night say 4 a.m And then mentalizing that you want to have a lucid dream and then going towards your last Rem episode of the night with this intention. You can have exercises during the day in which you ask yourself Am i dreaming am i dreaming if you just create the habit of asking that This will prompt the same question when you are dreaming and then if you answer yes Then you need to control your excitement. Otherwise you wake up So it's about it's like riding a bike need to equilibrate yourself balance yourself between waking and going back to To the oblivion of regular r.m. Sleep. So if once you find the balance, then then there's a path of of Of testing your limits of of pushing the envelope of finding what you can do And it's one of the most exhilarating experiences in life in my opinion I mean when when I dream of flying and when I dream of getting out of out of the earth Environments and into the universe. These these are things that have been described Described many times in the human history from from Acadia in in ancient mesopotamia to the writings of giordano bruno This is a very important experience that people should have and should pursue to expand their minds to to learn more about their own minds And in the book you also propose keeping a dream journal and uh, that this is a good practice. Um, does that work I mean, obviously would work very well with lucid dreaming, but um, what can keeping a dream? How can keeping a dream journal be beneficial? I think it helps with lucid dreaming But but it actually helps with much more because it will give you like a map of your own situation it will give you A variety of descriptions from several points of view Of what's going on in your life It may bring to the conscious mind What are our true desires or true fears or challenges things that we are afraid of and that limit our perspectives And we can also offer us Very good insight into what not to do and what to to pursue when when I When i'm in a period in which I keep a dream diary in a consistent manner I realize that it's not just that one dream can be interpreted and make sense But when I have them all together like a series of dreams It's like really having many many pieces of the puzzle and then you start to say Ah, so these things that are so difficult for me, whatever in my life and my family or my my work or whatever whatever it is Uh, they there is a solution or there's something I shouldn't definitely not do Because because it's coming from within it's sort of it's a it's a very sophisticated form of intuition And what do you hope people take from this book and that if people who who read it what they what they learn and gain from it Well, I hope that people That read this book will be inspired to protect their sleep To guard their sleep to protect their dream to to cherish it to to to make it A topic of conversation in your family to bring the concentration of your dreams into Into your own life into the into Give importance to it because this is something that all our ancestors did With the exception of those in the past 500 years in the Eurocentric world and One thing I've been contending. I have a piece that was just published in Time magazine in which I just make this point that Perhaps the problems that we are facing in the 21st century In which there's the paradox of having so much technological advancement so many technological means And so little hope of really solving the problems of the majority of the people in the world Perhaps this is coming from the abandonment of dreaming and if we look into the example of our ancestors They were able to dream collectively and share Their dreams and shared their desires and shared their fears and built communities I think we it's we are in in in urgent need of A collective dream of shared common good If we can find that balance then we the 21st century may end With a very beautiful garden full of happy people You know performing what they want to perform doing what they want to do and you know Enjoying the benefits of the accumulation of culture of capital of of of all sorts of technological capital of Of cultural capital that we produced right now the situation is 800 million people starving and counting increasing and Less than 30,000 billionaires in the world getting richer and richer and richer. This must be a misunderstanding. This must be some sort of We are not imagining properly the consequences of our actions and dreaming may help us to just that Thank you so much for your time today. It's just been a joy speaking with you I really appreciate it. Thank you very much Everyone the book is oracle of night sedato ribiero And I do hope that you head out to I guess your local bookstore or your kindle whichever works for you There's also an audiobook How many languages is this book in it's now in portuguese, spanish, italian, english and soon French and russian and so on Wonderful, so it it will hopefully have an effect on Everyone around the world. Thank you so much everyone for joining us for this episode of this week in science We back again wednesday night 8 p.m. Pacific time for more science discussion


happens to be a 181st episode of our think tech Hawaii's human-humane architecture, traditionally broadcasting live from the opposite ends of the world. So today is just one end of the world because our co-host, DeSoto, being the nature of the vintage and treasures, currently his systems up on his vintage home the diamond head hill is down. So we need to get that back and need some care. So I will now be today on behalf of us, DeSoto and myself here back in the very Germany. If we can get the first slide up, it shows us again what we're always doing oscillating between both of our cultures here. And this is talking about that things sometimes have to get worse before they get better. So Joe Biden had just to reinstate as it says here, the travel ban for us Europeans to come to keep our cases down in Hawaii. And it sort of reminded us that coming full circle to the beginning, the heydays of tourism in Honolulu, DeSoto taught me, I always have my weekly German lesson with him and in return, he continues to give me English sayings, lessons. So he taught me the term newspaper clipping and that's what he's doing. So here is from the star advertiser looking back pieces here. This gentleman that you see at the very bottom right who is Willy Brandt who at that time as the subtitle says was the mayor of the city of Berlin. And you see him here relaxing on the beach of Waikiki. You see the basically the Royal Hawaiian in the back and here he is with swimming trunks and a lower shirt. And it took him until a decade later to finally become the chancellor, which is the equivalent to the president in the United States of Germany. And so that basically made him then being in the time of the late sixties to mid seventies. And so at that time in 59, just do our little history memory. That was the beginning of statehood when Hawaii became the fiftieth states and that basically boosted a tourism. So he was kind of a pioneer to that degree. And let's go to the next slide and look at the other end of the world how basically it all looked in Germany at that time. And this here is almost looks like, reminds us of a Y-like coffee lounge that coffee house that unfortunately closed, I think last year. And also has a little bit of a tiki touch and that makes me wanna congratulate my best German buddy Stefan who we know from previous shows as the tiki basement expert and of both of us having celebrated one of my recent birthdays at one of the most tiki places in the world, which is Trader Vic's oddly in the basement of Munich's most upscale hotel in downtown Munich. This place here, however, isn't a restaurant as it looks like, but it's a cafeteria and the dining facility in a place that we need to connect both worlds and that we started out increasingly with the airborne traffic of aviation connecting us half around the world which gets us to the next slide. So congratulations Stefan, again, happy birthday. It's your birthday today. So all the best health and happiness first and foremost. So here we see what I grew up with is my hometown of Hanover Airport here that has been built as it says in the early 70s. And Stefan knows this more from the inside because he was doing basically work there as a student and even before he was having a job there at helping to get the luggage into the airplanes. So he always told me these exciting stories about this by this airport here which again, we're missing Mr. DeSoto Brown and instead we're reporting on this episode two about Father Brown who's the nickname for this vintage architect of my hometown whose name is Heinz Wilke. And Heinz Wilke again was the architect of our airport as well. He was highly influenced by Amnesian modernism as you can tell here and he was using a material that's foreign and we said we caution everyone else to get overly excited about it for our tropics because it's a material that's maybe too invasive for it was just steel but he was mainly using steel. You can see at the very top right the project under construction, there's a little sign up there that's really kind of tragic because we were reporting on another project of his in the last show which is almost the sibling half around the world of our varsity building that we're worried about Kamehameha School maybe thinking about tearing it down. As this German Hanover sibling has been torn down and it has been torn down by a contractor company who owned it and used it as the headquarters and then it was Ruta Baal. And I was rubbing my eyes when I saw this historic picture of the airport under construction because guess what the sign up there says Ruta Baal. So this is particularly tragic that they have been instrumental in Father Brown's work than having sort of owned and occupied one of his buildings and having it torn down. That's really tragic. Once again, it reminds us of Kamehameha School owner of the varsity building. So please, please Kamehameha Schools keep it. It's a keeper and not tearing it down. So let's go to the next slide and check out how this my hometown airport has been looking from inside. Here you see very kind of spacey, the elevator as an object in the space and very kind of signature style for Father Brown. That's where it's nickname comes from that his favorite color for materials in the building was the color brown. So you see this dropped ceiling here made out of these kind of sections of hollow tubes that were powder coated in guess what brown and also had the lighting integrated in it. So next slide, it created this sort of brownish, very cozy, very warm, you know not very institutional looking atmosphere of an airport very kind of homey almost just by the choice of that warm color and lighting enhancing that. And I remember that from my childhood. I threw in the chill quote that we had with our friend Ron Lindgren who was making comments about the military diner we have been designing and sort of a similar atmosphere a very kind of a celebratory kind of celebrating the space and the warmth of space kind of along the same lines. Next slide, shockingly, last time we've been reporting on his prime project of the headquarters of a local people's bank, the Spark Husser that architect has been turning gold into silver. So usually you do the opposite, right? Because gold is more valuable than silver but here for some reasons. And in the past show reporting, these were other architects, but we've been reporting that when Father Brown passed away in the early 90s at the young age of only in his mixed 60s some of his staff members basically took over the office. So they were responsible and in charge of the remodeling of the airport of the founding principal of the firm, Heinz Wilke and they did the same as the other architect basically they silverized it. So once again, turning gold into silver versus keeping gold. So a way more sort of sterile look having basically done the ceiling in more bright and white also as a reference I guess to not make the look the ceiling so naked they have these kind of sticks kind of sticking out and the lighting somehow being part of that. But again, a very, very different feel almost like feels more like a hospital feels less warm feels less homie feels way more institutionalized. So going to the next slide what does it all have to do with us in Honolulu? We see these similarities here. The top rows are shows about our aviation heritage in Honolulu by the architect of the Soto's home building, Vladimir Asipov. Again, having worked in the same era as we know our airport in Honolulu, a very fine example of tropical modernism using basically local materials as cast in place, concrete, local wood, local coirwood touching it up, making the concrete feel more warm very exquisite attention to detailing again, very distinguished. The Soto did a show about recommendations for how to live in the pandemic as being embracing easy breezy and as he pointed out as we quote on the top right the airport being a perfect example for that. So what we see down there is the newest addition to the airport, he has a rendering by the firm quoted on the very top bottom left that's doing the work. And once again, we're kind of missing working in that tradition in that heritage of the tropical exotic. We're seeing this way more technical seeing this way more you know, again, sterile and kind of high techy looking. So once again, where is the attention to tradition? We would say we're missing that. Next slide. We go to an airport here that I'm not one to screw up on pronouncing it. So I'm doing my best is Sherry Medyevo which is one of the airports in Moscow in Russia. And Heinz Wielke amazingly made himself a reputation basically with our hometown Hanover Airport to also get the commission as someone from the West to design one of the most prestigious airports behind the Iron Curtain at that time at the beginning of the Reagan era and our chancellor Cole deeply into the kind of the Cold War era. But again, sometimes architecture is sort of resisting basically sort of problematic zeitgeist and Heinz Wielke once again, you see similarity to the Hanover Airport here the same drop ceiling with the hollow tubes in brown. And you can also see these kind of chandeliers with these illuminated bubble glass lighting fixtures that once again intend to create a more homey, a more cozy atmosphere in the airport rather than a sterile institutional one. Next slide. No surprise probably that things have changed there too. The airport then sort of having gotten a little bit out of, well, I shouldn't say style but hasn't really had the, I guess, it's relevance anymore as a hub but recently in the last couple of years they have regained that and they needed to add on to the airport. What you see at the top left is a rendering of what has been actually executed by now at the bottom there. Also, these are new terminals that have been added. And obviously we've been talking about emperor's new clothes, the architect's thoughts to basically at their own handwriting, at their own signature and didn't really care so much about the tradition that Wielke brought to the place. That reminds us the show we had done with Larry Stricker about his Ihilani. His Ihilani was pretty much the same as the original terminal was here by Hans Wielke for the airport. And once again, there is this, the bottom picture of this sort of megalomantic kind of blobby thing that seems to be way more a formalist gesture than a performatively functional zeitgeist. Once again, this proposal of this new phase of Ihilani out there, this monstrous blob that we're getting, we wish it would show more substance than just surfaceial kind of flashiness. And once again, why are we even asking to be a little bit more respectful of the original condition and let one self be more working within that tradition gets us to the next slide. This is our reading assignment of our steel manual atlas here. And guess what? That airport in Moscow made it into that Bible of steel architecture. So once again, we tell our colleagues and developers and architects before you start thinking about doing whatever you wanna do, do your homework, do your precedent study, find out what really is what you're finding, what kind of position does it have in the history of architecture and then go from there. And then maybe you're a little bit more considerate about the kind of novelty you wanna bring and maybe it's more about evolving a genetic code that's sort of embedded in the body in the project. The cool effect, obviously, I mean, these projects kind of show the sort of desire to make things more cool. Next slide was Heinz Wilken not able to do that? Sure he was, look at that. Doesn't that look space agey? Sure it does. And next slide, it's part of this project here which is a Congress Center in the city of Düsseldorf built in 74. And you see at the very bottom left, this is the skywalk that leads from the other side of the streets and the parking to the thing. This Congress Center very much is showing one of the prime formal elements of the 70s which is the 45 degree angle. If there's something is very typical for the 70s it's the 45 degree angle. You can see here in plan that it's pretty much like a compilation of multiple octagons. And you see at the top right, this very neat picture that I pulled all from this amazing website built index that we're crediting at the very bottom there that shows that once again, it seems to be a sibling of the Spark as a Bank we were showing last time and that alludes to SOM's Sears Tower in Chicago, this kind of staggering of the same geometry and bringing it to different heights. And here you can see that these kind of lower one-story entry canopy pavilions and then the next ones are basically also a roof terraces for outdoor congregations here kind of beautifully, poetically furnished with different colored kind of chairs. So next slide, speaking about the 45 degree angle as that signal for 70s architecture is another project by Hans Wilke back to my hometown of Hanover. This is really down in the urban core of the city and it's a very strange thing to see here. There are some Linai's as we call them in Honolulu and in Hawaii, there's some balconies they're basically sticking out and they're doing this sort of criss-crossy alternating once again in plan in a 45 degree angle. And what is that strange building? Go to the next slide. It's something that is very familiar to us because we're having it a lot on the island from the past. This is actually a parking garage that has a multi-purpose also, there's a bolding alley at the very bottom and then there is office space at the top where the client that are the client organization that as we were telling the story in the last show, our client representative for our first kindergarten was working for and they were basically headquartered at the top of this building. So I was very used and familiar with the building and my dad and I went there a couple of times in the few times we had to wait, we were looking down on the floors and where the floor touches the walls and there was this beautiful Carl Heinz Wilka, Father Brown custom-made baseboard. It was basically routed out on its back that is touching the wall. So it was creating the shadow reveal and seemed to be more floating versus just attached to the wall, a beautiful kind of detailing and certainly sort of subconsciously to some degree probably the detailing of us in the kindergarten was an homage to that project. At the very top there you see vintage images from that built index from the bowling alley. And next slide shows you the parking garage from the outside. Once again, we did a show about the proletarian people power parking plimfs and saying if we would basically remove individual car traffic from the island and replace it with a multimodal alternatives, you would basically free up most of that parking space for other usages. The most in need is basically housing is dwelling. And so again, this is a brutalist parking garage and up there is a couple of the quotations from the many brutalist parking garages we have on our island. So there's another kind of a reference. Once again, we're having winter right now so you can't survive in a repurposed for dwelling parking garage here in Hanover, Germany. It's freezing cold, but you can in Honolulu. So be aware of our unique selling proposition of having the most perfect climate in the world. Next slide. Next slide is showing another typology of Karl-Heinz-Wilke. This is what used to be designed as the British embassy in my hometown. It's an exoskeleton. He was the master of steel. Here you can see a Corten steel exoskeleton column. And that reminds us of our Aloha Stadium, which is currently proposed to be redeveloped. The excuse is there's too much corrosion there and too much rusting. But then again, does that mean it's worth tearing it down and remodeling it? Or could you try to save it in basically doing some bone replacements? We're just throwing this out as an alternative because once again, I was just talking to old Maya, my friend, old, who was basically saying and wrote an article about, you should try to maintain a building as much as you can because you can never make up for the carbon footprint wasted. If you replace it with something that's not anywhere close to be built without a carbon footprint. So next slide here, talking repurposing when the British embassy moved out of this building, Wilka moved in with his office and him personally with his residence. You can see the little pictures up there. And again, brutalism is something that National DoCo Momo has been picking up saying we're turning, all these projects are turning basically 50s, so 70s turning 50s. And so we're basically sensitizing us and the public about that these are treasures. You can see the project here is very heavy on what we think every building in Hawaii should have lanai is right. Every basically unit, even having been office space before is basically now has a lanai and the concrete is basically interesting. They used in a more tectonic way as an applied non log bearing facade versus our most favorite and famous building of tropical brutalism, which is the Royal Hawaiian shopping mall on Kalakaua Avenue that we've been reporting about and we quote on the top right. Next slide, another project by a father Brown is here, which used to be the army offices school which he built in later in the late 70s. You can see what the soda was recognizing and really sort of praising was this sort of corrugation of concrete. I have a very personal relationship to that because as you can see Joey, my oldest son up there in this building, I was able to get myself out of a life of having to serve as a lieutenant of reserve for the German military. So leaving Hanover Germany and spending the last couple of minutes here back in Hawaii, next slide here in Honolulu is basically what the Soto keeps me updated. This is a project on the left by the architect of my dwelling Ernest Hara in downtown Honolulu from the 80s where he was staying true to modernism and having not been caught up in postmodernism, so kudos, but unfortunately now what you can see where we're shocked to see what happened to the gold bond building, there's someone who's sort of redraping the building with some glass and turning something that potentially shades into thermal mass, which is really bad, while one could have been cladding it with this German product that we call Taimo, which is by Glasbau Han, which are these triple glazed passive house, really high energy efficient louvers that one could have reglazed the building and could have enhanced its energy performance. Next slide. Also, I think we have to criticize ourselves when it comes to, because that's a bank building. So we've been reporting on the American savings banks, there probably we as members need to speak up more. I know that Tropical Rockwood is a member of the American savings bank and I have to admit I got some mail today by look at that sign up there up here, which is that spark cusser. So I'm a member of the spark cusser, so I should speak more up. Next slide is also shocking news of Tosoto here, showing us what happens to the Walgreens building on Kapiolani Boulevard that we've been reporting about being very critical to be very invasive, a greedy development to begin with and after some years now I've been closed down and being refitted and we're afraid, it's only be built as an interim phase to finally redevelop that as a high rise next slide. And as a high rise we're worried about because the architect is architect Hawaii and they're also in charge of the Mandarin Oriental that you can see at the very top. And next to the side, they're doing this one alumina building and all of them seem to be one again more invasive hermetic nature and we're basically recommending, for example, architect Hawaii to the gentleman we see at the very bottom left, at top left, who's Frank Haynes, who's a founding principal in architect Hawaii and they're doing this phenomenal building as for example, the Kenrock building that now gets redeveloped by the tower we see on top. And you see that the nature of architects Hawaii at the very beginning was tropical exotic, was biochlamatic. So we kind of appeal to the firm and basically say, look at that, look at your own roots and basically try to return to them. Which it gets us to the last slide, is this possible? We think, yes, the emerging generation thing. So we're working on these primitivas which are way more than what we see on Capulani Boulevard, it's trees, the big trees. And so we're thinking in the tradition of Frank basically make more stacked lanai easy breezy towers. And we're currently working on primitiva three which is inspired by the great Fry Otto. And so at the top right, you see what we're working on and this gets us to the end of the show and announcing that we're gonna have one of our mentors for the next three shows who's Larry Medlin who was a personal collaborator with Fry Otto has been working with him on the 67 American Pavilion in Montreal. He has been best friends with a great Conrad Waxman and he has been dancing, invited to dance by Janice Joplin and if, I don't know, takes anything else to get you more excited to tune back in next week for our 132nd episode of Human Humane Architecture. And until then obviously stay healthy and happy first and foremost, but increasingly again, tropical exotic. Bye-bye.


Live from Las Vegas, it's theCUBE, covering Knowledge 16, brought to you by ServiceNow. Here are your hosts, Dave Vellante and Jeff Frick. We're back, this is theCUBE, Silicon Angles flagship production. We go out to the events, we extract the signal from the noise, the signal here at ServiceNow Knowledge 16 is the extension of service management across the enterprise. Brian Andrews is here, he's the Vice President of IT, Stone Brewing, CUBE alum. Brian, great to see you again. Thank you, it's great to be here, nice to see you guys again. Another Knowledge, a lot happening, good energy this year again, you know. It's my third Knowledge. How's this week been for you? Oh, it's a blast, yeah, incredible energy and growth and excitement from the company, the partners, it's been fun. So third Knowledge, you've had service now for two years, right, and so what, the first Knowledge was sort of coming and kicking the tires and talking to other customers, is this stuff real? Exactly, last year we got to speak and this year we're in the customer showcase, which is new one of four and telling our story about what we did and meeting other customers and partners, it's fun. So give us the update, what's the story? You guys are growing, expanding? Yeah, yeah, so Stone Brewing were the 10th largest craft beer company in the country and growing double digit growth. So yeah, we're now opening a second brewery in Richmond, Virginia and a third in Berlin, Germany doing two at the same time, which is pretty nuts for us to do both. So it's a large focus for the company. We're actually the first American craft brew company to open a brewery anywhere in Europe and to operate it. And we're going right to Berlin and... In Germany, how less? I know, I know. Right into the fire, I mean. I know. Now talk about that business decision to go into Germany, I mean, beer central. I know, I know. Well, a craft beer starting to really take off in Europe and we were looking at sites all through Europe and really fell in love with this property in Berlin. It's an old gas works facility, brick, a neat place for garden inside. It's just really a neat place, but the craft beer movements has a lot of energy there. And we feel like that can be our European hub to brew and distribute throughout Europe. So it's a great spot, a great place to come visit and spend the day and enjoy the gardens. And that's gonna be a lot of fun. We have a really a large bistro going in as well. So it's gonna be a place you'll want to stay and hang all day. Yeah. Eat pretzels. That's right, that's right. And how does, I'm just curious, we're talking offline, kind of the German purity laws or their special, Germany is a very special place to do business for a whole lot of reasons. HR reasons and data privacy reasons and this, that and the other. From the brewery perspective, we hear about their purity laws. Do you have to follow those? Is your new animal as an American craft beer manufacturer? How does that work? Well, so most of our beer that we do, the core beers, they do fit right into that. Our stone IPA and arrogant bastards, they fit in. But we do a lot that do not fit in because we add in espresso or tangerine or good stuff like that. So we're purposely going to be knocking down that bureaucracy and being rebellious. We had a event last week where we served only beers that did not comply with the law. True to our culture, we're rebels and it's exciting for us. I have to say, I mean, German beer is special. I've consumed a lot of German beer in my day and somehow the next day, you just feel great. Absolutely, absolutely. Is that the experience with stone? Yeah, yeah, it's going to be, you know, I think new to get the strong, you know, bitter forward, hot forward IPAs that we serve will be different. That's awesome. Now you guys, you were saying, brought in service now from the business side first. We did. And then IT, but you led that acquisition. Talk about that. Two years ago, we were looking at putting in a set of systems for the business. Each group had their own needs and they had selected systems they wanted to bring in. The brew ops maintenance was the number one that we needed to serve as a use case. So the, you know, demand was really growing for our beer as it's been. We need to keep up with the demand and so we can't have the brewing equipment down. We were turning to a 24-7 operation in the brewery. Anytime a piece of equipment was down, we're not getting beer to our fans. We're not serving our customers. So we needed something for plan maintenance to keep that equipment rolling. Facilities wanted something as well for maintaining the facilities and HVAC units and all that. Safety wanted something for reporting incidents. They were all those groups for outlook and Excel. And so they needed a system. They didn't have one. We had some project management needs in our marketing group. And of course, IT wanted a great system too. So we looked at those and said, we can collapse all these down into one system with service now. Because in the end, they had a common set of requirements. They wanted workflow and reporting and visibility, work order management. So we did some proof of concepts and they bought in and we deployed service now to the business first because they had nothing. At least IT had something. It was antiquated, but we had something. So we served them father's children. Exactly. We served them first. And so year one was all about putting those platforms in place, the crawl, walk, and then year two, we were optimizing. And now we report some, we had some terrific results that have come out now by using it. Now you got to triple it and take it overseas. So then you go straight to the run. That's right. That's right. And fly. So as you grow, what role do you see service now playing? I mean, have you been able to sort of sense or measure the productivity impacts? Yeah, we've had some great results that come out of this. So our brewing department, as I said, they need to keep that equipment rolling. Any downtime was hurting us. We cut the downtime in half by using planned maintenance. And so we use not only the corrective work orders, but planning. So we have 2,200 items from the brewery and packaging in our CMDB, and we run planned maintenance against those. Now half of the work orders that we're completing are planned preventive in nature. Those were a very small percentage earlier. It was more reactive and corrective. Moving to planned, we're more on top of things, more proactive and the equipment's up and running longer. So you mentioned the CMDB. So you've got a single CMDB? Are you getting there? We do. Yeah, a single CMDB for all the brewing and packaging equipment. And it's all has a nice data hierarchy so we can know that it's the Escondido brewery and it's Brewhouse One and it's the Louder Ton and that has valves and pumps and sensors. Now those items might be used in other pieces of equipment too. So we can put those and assign them to different items in the CMDB, but it's all in there and organized and we can see how we're doing on cost control and when we need to replace equipment or maintain it. And on the preventive, is it implementing suggestive best practices by the manufacturer of those components or did you guys come up with your own kind of maintenance schedule based on operating experience, et cetera? Yeah, primarily from the manufacturer. So we have those as knowledge articles as well. But we have our own procedures that we also put in there and those are put through in the work order so the technicians can see those. And then one thing that's really nice is when we have downtime in the brewery for maybe the brewing team is doing training. We can see all the plan maintenance coming up and accelerate some so we may have something for next week. We can move it up by a few days or something we may want to delay so we can have less downtime and group it together and do that maintenance all at once. What kind of modifications have you, did you have to make or did you have to make bringing in service now? Well, we were a little on the bleeding edge in some cases a couple of years ago as we were putting in the facilities maintenance and the plan maintenance. So that was just starting to come out with service now. So we had to build some custom tables and we wanted to make sure it made sense for the context. So we had crafting assets and crafting systems, those kinds of things. So the business content made sense. But those are now coming out of the box so we're starting to pull back on the customization. So it was not too bad, a few things. Now as we extended to facilities and safety, we wanted to make sure we could tag items if there's a leaking valve or exposed wire, those kinds of things. We can tag it as a facilities issue, a brewing ops issue, but also note it as a safety issue. Safety is big at stone. We want to make sure it's a safe environment for our team. We've cut injuries in half by having a focus on people and training the processes but also having this tool now to make all the issues visible in real time. So we're having a 100% increase in safety issues reported to us so we can see more, they were out there before and weren't being reported or lost in email and Excel. So we're seeing those now, more proactive fixing and cut injuries in half. We're really proud of that. Talk about the process behind that because we always talk about the people process technology, technology's one piece, a fool with a tool, blah blah blah, all the little idioms. But you're using ServiceNow as a platform to enter those incidents, those safety incidents but somebody's got to actually do that, right? So is it the person who got injured and what's the incentive for them doing that or explain the process behind that? Well, safety is woven into our culture. So we want to make sure day one, everyone knows that's critical for us. We want to leave as safe, as healthy as you were when you started your day. So what we have is that form is available through our service catalog along with IT requests, facilities requests, there's a safety incident you can report, those come through from the team member that saw it. So it could be the person that experienced it or someone who saw something and maybe they're working the packaging line, they see something that could be an issue. So those could be sent through easily on a tablet or from their workstations and then the safety manager gets alerted to that, works to cues, runs their reports, passes it to who's in charge, maybe fixed by the facilities team or an engineer. So they pass those tickets along. That's a real plus for us having that on one system because originally the brewing folks wanted their system they were used to and that was different than what facilities had used before or safety in their previous companies but bringing it all together in one, they can pass those tickets along and track it a lot easier in one system. And you're able to identify commonalities and then attack like they showed this morning's keynote with the big red box. That's right. And so you were able to drill down into those and then try to put in new processes to remediate those problems. And of course all the categories, what types of injuries are happening and you can focus on the top ones. Is it slip and falls or lifting or forklift and those tie into then training and certification and getting people recertified. So it starts to tie to the learning management program as well. But the other thing we hear over and over is that in the implementation and execution with service now in department A and then it integrates over to BC and D and they start to say, hey, we want to do this too. Are you seeing a proliferation beyond kind of what your core initial delivery was? Oh, absolutely. Yeah, people are, there's a conga line we like to say, people waiting to get on. Our next is going to be project management for getting a new beer released. So that's a seven month process or so to get from concept to actually getting the beer out the door. And so we're going to be putting that all in service now for project management and having those tasks visible for everyone involved. It's a really cross functional effort to get a beer released and many different groups have to collaborate and making that visible in a single place, single plan, having dependencies in there. And what we love about the project management suite is that the work being done is in the project plan but it's also the tasks that can assign to people to do the work. And if they're getting production support or incidents that come through, they can see that and they're my work keys along with their project work all in one place. So we're really excited about putting in project management to come. What are you using today for project management? Well, for that new beer process, it's a lot of Excel spreadsheets and email, some document word docs, those kinds of things. But we have MS project and project server that we're using for construction projects. But there's a lot of manual work that goes with that. Will you and have you? Let me go start with have you. When you brought in service now, were you able to retire some systems? Did you get rid of stuff? Well, for IT, we had a system, it was the track it system from BMC. So that's one that we wanted to replace. So we're rolling it out for IT was a big win. And that's now gotten pretty far we're doing incidents and change. We'd like to get into problem and really start to mature that. But we've put the business first, so IT's taking the backseat on resources, but it's definitely, we're well past where we were before. So we'll be putting the assets in the database for IT as we've done for the brewing equipment and the facilities equipment and really build out IT ahead. But MS project will definitely be retired as we move. And most of the other ones, the media department has a system they used called ASANA and they use that for project management. That will also go when we have the new beer system getting launched with project management. How do you deal with the organization or is there organizational friction? People say I want to hang on to the last user. Yeah. Yeah, the stretcher. Right, right. How do you deal with that? Well, so most of the folks were using Outlook and Excel. So those are pretty easy. They really, they needed something and didn't have it. So those were easier wins. But there's some, the change management is interesting because when you look in the magic quadrant, what's the best maintenance management systems or project management systems and service now yet isn't out there, right? Because it's the best in service management by getting people to see that it can also be a terrific system for project management or maintenance is a bit of a stretch, right? So you have to show them really, well, what is it you really need? What are those requirements that let me show you? So we've done some proof of concepts and that's been helpful to get people to see as well and believe because they see it as an IT system also when they go look it up, but we show them what we're doing and they get it. It's exciting. So we're talking last year, we talked about time to value and we sort of joked time to beer. Right. Have you been able to actually quantify that? Do you see faster time to beer? Well, it's like having that brewing equipment up and running has been big for us. And cutting that in half of the downtime, we're getting the beer out the door. So that has been the biggest win for us really. I think with this seven month new beer release process, although cutting that time down isn't the number one driver of that. It's more about getting it visible and the collaboration of people working together. I think that that will be pleasantly surprised with how that's gonna decrease. So give us the roadmap over the next 12 months. What are you gonna be working on? What's exciting you? Yeah, so a couple of big things. So we'll be doing that new beer project management. We're also gonna be integrating with our ERP system. So for the team that's getting those maintenance requests in for the brewery, they wanna get those parts consumed from our ERP system, get the parts in, we can track the total cost of the maintenance that's going on, but also trigger reorders for the parts based on min values in our ERP. So that'll be a nice integration. We'll do the new beer and then we wanna get IT mature through the IT service management. And we're seeing so many great things with that, performance analytics, that's exciting to us because we're getting a lot of data, good operational reports, but we'd love to get some of that predictive business intelligence coming. So those are a couple areas we're really looking at this year. And I think also making a ticket advantage of that, the tools to make the user interface really nice looking will be great. So our service portal, service catalog has a lot of great items on there, but it doesn't look that great yet. So we're gonna make it look slick with some of the new tools and I guess Helsinki's got some really good tools for doing that. So you use service now for that UI, UX? Yeah. And you say bringing forth parts of Helsinki? Yeah, yeah, so we're upgrading later this summer. We're moving to Geneva in a couple of weeks and then we'll be really focusing later in the summer and making that service catalog look good. Now, Stone's got some beautiful imagery. We have great shots of the beer and our facilities, really great external when people see Stone, has really just terrific images and videos. We wanna make that look as good on the inside as it does on the outside for a fan. So people come in and join the company and see how good we are on the inside too. That's important to us. So who does that beautification?  Pretty small team, only 17 in IT that take care of a thousand team members. So we have, we're stretched pretty thin. We have a terrific system administrator who also does development and UI and another gentleman that works on our websites. So I think collaborating together and the tools that are available, I think we'll be able to make it look good internally. And we've had some great partners as well. Awesome, yeah. All right, Brian, well, listen, thanks for coming back to theCUBE and sharing your stories. We love having Stone brewing on anytime, so really appreciate it. Thank you very much, guys. Appreciate being here. You're welcome. All right, keep it right there, buddy. theCUBE will be back right after this Knowledge 16, Vegas. Right back.