Yeah, it's a quiet bench. I'm impressed or something. Good morning, good afternoon, good evening all. Hey. All right. Ready to rock and roll. Good to be back on the Thursdays. It's been a while. Excuse me a moment. Yay. Oh, except I don't hear anybody. Oh, there we go. Check, check. Hello. Good morning. West Coast. I always think that's actually Mark sitting there and I realized, oh no, wait, that's his avatar. Oh, look, he's not wearing a blanket after all. We can't hear you. You're muted. I still have about three layers of sweater. Really? Yeah. Oh, spring has sprung in Portland, Oregon. That's for sure. Still you immediately here. The rain last night probably was a good news. Good news. Some more rain, please. Yeah. One of the nice things about Portland, Oregon is that we're not in the drought zone. No, definitely not. Yeah. Just to mention super quick, I'm here for 30 minutes. To the extent there's a queue. I'd love to say hi before that. That sounds awesome. And we should mention. That if you, I'll wait a second to say this, but in the meantime, I'm finding our OGM calls channel and matter most. So that I can be in our chat properly. And we should. Oops. Copy link. There we go. Thank you. The garden of earthly delights, right? Oh, good. Pete. Thank you very much for putting the old chat channel in the, in the zoom chat. That is lovely. I was just trying to do that. So we're realizing that the Thursday calls are getting a tiny bit bigger. To the point where we don't make it through the room during check-in. Part of the reason for this is that we're leisurely in our check-in and we sort of intentionally take highways and highways along the way. If we were to set a timer and see everybody gets two minutes or whatever, we probably would make it through the room. But that's. But that's not, you know, that's not what we're aiming for. We're actually sort of aiming for mixing around our ideas and our achievements and all the kinds of things that we're aiming at. So one's very, very simple protocol. I'd love to put in Reggie Watts is so brilliant. So Reggie Watts is the houseband for one of the new late night talk shows. I'm forgetting which one. No way. Way. I'm going to have to watch TV now. Really? He's the Doc Severinson, one of the late night talk shows. And I've forgotten which one. That's crazy. Of course, probably only two people on this call. Remember Doc Severinson. No, actually probably four or five people on this call. Remember. Yeah. Yeah. So heads up if you, if you find that and easy to find. The band leaders on all those shows are actually pretty cool now. Yeah, they've gotten, they've realized that that music is that important component of everything and, and it goes there. And a side on that. We've been watching the PBS series, the black church, which is for one hours. It's actually two to our chunks that you can watch for free on YouTube. And I thought I was reasonably informed on things. No, not really. It's beautiful. And it goes way deep into the role of religion. In the black community and how it interacted with the rest of society. And it brings lots of people in and it has an all star cast of interviewees. It's really beautiful. So highly recommend it. Related to that. If you haven't seen it, check out Senator Warnock's freshman speech at the Senate yesterday. Oh, didn't even know about it. Thank you. And apparently it's a big, the freshman speech is a big deal. People say this is the best one they've heard in ages. Who's a preacher as well as an activist as well as Senator, you know, he's got the pulpit at what used to be Martin Luther King's church. Yeah. And to hear the, the, the rhetoric and cadence of that discipline show up in a political discourse. The heart that it brings was remarkable. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. If someone can finally can put in the chat, that would be fabulous. I'm pretty sure it's online. John, if you could mute your mic a little bit. That will help us. Perfect. Thank you. And Joe, we are actually chatting in matter most. And I don't know if you're on the matter most server. So most of our chat, because we want the chat to live on. Between sessions and to be visible for everybody, you know, whenever we've actually tried to move ourselves over to matter most of the time. So if anybody who's on a Mac in Chrome or something like that. I, there's a little, when you mouse over the buttons to minimize your window. It's usually red, yellow, green. The green mouse button has choices to go window tile window to left, tile window to right. And I've discovered that opening matter most and tiling matter most off to the right and leaving zoom then to the left, gives me the ability to kind of replace the zoom chat and still see everybody. So if you want to try that out. I recommend it. What do you zoom over? So I'm, I'm basically in matter most. And then I, I mouse over the. Share your screen real quick. Oh, good idea. Actually, if I share my screen, the zoom won't show up. Oh, yes, it should. Oh, no, it won't. The matter most will. The matter most will, which is what matters most, except it just blew over to the left and didn't. It just, it just completely blew my arrangement. That's really great. Anyway, the buttons are these George. Okay. Got it. So right now, if I click exit full screen, it'll undo what I just did. But I, what I did was I tiled window to right of screen. And what it does is it splits my screen in half, puts matter most on the right as a nice chat and then puts all the zoom on the left, which works fine. Now let's see if, if I stopped sharing, let's see if it'll recover. Nope. Did not recover. Okay. Let's go back to matter most and let's do that again. Now I have to exit full screen and then go back in. Cool. So the thing I was trying to say about our protocols is that we, we are getting big enough that we don't make it around the room in our normal check-in routine, which is intentionally a leisurely routine. We're taking our time to listen to what everybody's saying and help one another and so forth. And this hasn't grown to such a big call yet either, but I kind of want to say that it's okay if we don't hit everybody, but there are some people who would love to check in or be heard. So ping me, say so in the chat. I will make sure that we include you early in the process and that will be, that will be a simple, simple workaround for that right now. And then we're working on other things. What we don't want to do is mess up sort of the, the nature tone quality of, of the calls. And so in this way we can sort of still be leisurely and hopefully not her feelings and make it through. And then my normal MO is to start from the bottom of my screen. Just this is just a photo call that started early, but I realized that, you know, Doug, for example, and Craig have ended up way at the end of the list over and over and over again. So maybe I'll start with, with you guys after, after Charles because Charles has to leave quickly. And that way we'll make sure that we, we catch your ideas sort of earlier in the call. And then Pete, you always do a fantastic job of organizing like activities that we do. We have a lot of time is in checking us in on those. So I'll make sure that I catch you early in the loop also. So that being one more thing where you have a hard stop at 930. And we have to, we have a hard stop at 930. So we're going to aim to wrap the call like two minutes before 930. So we have a chance to swap to our next, next conference. Thank you. And I am right now. and sharing them with us, you could use a virtual camera and actually share them in your background. You could actually use a piece of gear that lets you do switching and so forth. Our friend David Bobbill has been using those in meetings which is pretty impressive. It's a $100 switcher basically that lets you then put whatever you want behind you in different ways and configurations. I do not have one of those, but it's easy enough to get one of these virtual cameras and then show us your outliner, your mindmapper, your brain, your kumu, also even your iPad drawing. So if you were using Procreate or Paper or some other tool on iPad and we're just drawing what we're doing, you could show that to us behind you and then it's up to anybody to just pin you up on their screen. And I think that'll work out as well. And then final thing is I'm busy writing, but not quite done, an invite for tomorrow morning, same time. We're gonna do a pop-up just a one-off call for OGM because we're redoing the OGM website. And one of the things that we would love to have there is the voices of OGMers. We would love to have, what is this like for you? And so I'm wording that now and we'll send that out shortly sort of around midday today. But if you'd like to please plan to join us tomorrow at 8 a.m. Pacific again for just a, I think it'll be an hour. We could run over if it's really good, really getting good, but we'll see how that goes. And so Charlotte, if you, so the tools are unfamiliar, I think what we can do is we can pretty quickly create a little resource page that has links to many cam. There's a series of virtual cans that you can use. There's also one open source one that of course looks like Windows 95, but is free that I found that I have not tried, but the other ones usually charge like $30 once or something like that. Some of them are actually subscriptions like we went to $15 a month which seems to be kind of expensive for that. And we haven't tried the Zoom whiteboard here, but doesn't the whiteboard take over our display? Don't know. So we have not experimented with the Zoom whiteboard that is a good idea to try at some point because we are kind of a visual practice here. Any other business before we launch it? I think we're good. So Charles, since you've got a boogie at the half, please, if we'll start, why don't we start with Charles Doug Pete? Wow, thank you for the honor of kicking it off here. And I've been away for a while. I'll try to be brief, but just for kind of action packed updates, so kind of bursting at the seams. So the main reason I've been away is because I was in the Colonel Fellowship that's colonel.community. I could put that in the chat, but I'm on my phone at the moment in my kitchen trying to get some food. But so that's a web three decentralized web around Ethereum blockchain fellowship that London Yon and I have been in in a kind of eight week program, but it continues as a community network. So lots more to say about that. Anyone can connect with me if they're interested. So yeah, I shared the Reggie Watts piece, which I was just watching before and it's just hadn't seen that particular performance, but it's the NPR tiny desk. And so he has a song in there that's where he's talking. The intro is like he's referring to NPR, NPR is NPR. And then he goes on to talk about, you know, the perfect coffee sips from all the moderators that he's listened to for years on NPR. And I just kind of tuned into this OGME vibe. So I thought I would share that, but it's a really cool song. Anyway, Keco Lab, the Collective Intelligence Collaboratory Group IQ. This is the big kind of front and center focus now starting, we have these Monday sessions. I'm excited, I'm not gonna go into all detail because there's too much, but every week, everybody's invited. And we're gonna be for the next bunch of weeks, over a month probably really focusing each session incrementally in how do we actually build that conversation at container to have a summit around group IQ, how to measure group intelligence. And it's a big topic. And actually I just realized today, I wanna break it into a kind of five elements mode. So that's just heard it here first, actually Lauren hasn't even heard that. And the other thing is it's the return of the flow show. So I'll be taking over starting Monday and we'll be doing a flow show style, which some of you know what that means. Lauren is not here because she's often running interviewing systems innovators in a series asking them how we're gonna build this amazing incubator that we're trying to do with Keco Lab. And she's also leading the charge to manage a whole bunch of consultants, teams of consultants coming on board, Keco Lab to support our various projects. And in regard to systems innovators, I think lastly I'll just say Vincent, Irina and I and Alex Kennedy have been doing a bunch of things on Clubhouse. SystemsInnovators.com is a place to get information about that. And also Telegram and Discord. And I just have to give a shout out to Pete Kaminski and Flotilla and lots and lots of things kicking off there. So thanks everyone. Thank you so much. Well, thank you so much. And there's just, we have intersections with lovely initiatives like Keco Lab and lots of people from OGM have been showing up for Keco Lab calls and vice versa. And then there's a lot of cross-breeding and thinking and DNA swapping between our different groups and infrastructure building. And that feels really, really nice. It's a, I think it's very OGM-y. It's what we're aiming for. When we talk about what I sort of, I just don't like the term onboarding.  It's like, ah, so introductions, dating. I don't know what the right word is. Allow me just to quickly chime in because actually onboarding is super relevant. I mean, whether you like the term or not, we've done. So before, well, going back already, almost two months because of the aforementioned consultants, they're actually interns coming through various universities, but these are like highly trained, experienced grad students in all different, you know, sectors. And so we're calling them consultants, but essentially we had to like, let them know what's up with Keco Lab, which is not a simple thing because as one of them put it sort of off the cuff, you know, we're an abstract organization or abstract company, you know, we're not even a company. So anyway, I digress, but onboarding. So there's some neural boards that Lauren has put marvelously together really visually laying out the onboarding processes and protocols. Okay, that's it. Thanks. Awesome, Charles. I just put in the chat, maybe you're an abstract expressionist organization. There's some genre of abstraction. Awesome. So thank you very much. Let's go to Doug, then Pete, then Craig. Well, this of course is very strange going this early in the tube. Usually I fall off the end when I have so much to say. I'm feeling rather quiet this morning. Two things on my mind. I'm involved with a group that thinks its mission is to reinvent government. And what they're working on right now is taking the new stimulus package, the whole 1.9 trillion and saying as a system, feedback is missing. So what they're looking at is taking groups of people like VISTA volunteers, maybe the people who did the census and deputizing them as local feedback loops on how the whole spreading money around so widely is happening. Is it happening? What needs to happen? It's quite interesting because it's actually a plausible project and I have some leverage to maybe get it done. The thing that's probably most on my mind is, Jerry, you began last week by saying climate change is on the horizon. And I bristled at that because to me, we're in climate change. It's not coming, it's here. And we're not doing very much about it. I think that people have no idea really what to do to get off of the logic of win-win, which is where we seem to be. That is, the entrepreneurs can win, green can win, everybody can win. When the fact is we've got to cut CO2 and there's no plan to cut it rapidly enough to make a significant difference without actually unemploying people or losing jobs or communities. So the conversation is not engaged with the strategic reality. And I don't know how to help it get there, but we've got to do better. Two thoughts and then I'll open it to the floor. One I just forgot. Partly there's the alternatives for what to do are just sort of unclear to people. Like we're frozen in time because this is present. It's like it's already hit us. But I think people are frozen for what to do and we're kind of not able to get into that conversation very easily. So I totally agree. Klaus, do you want to jump in? Yeah. I mean, I totally agree with Stuck's statement. Stay on. It is to me stunning, for example, it's citizen climate lobby business, climate leaders, these are people who are really focusing on climate change and they're talking about it and they're researching it. And yet even here, there is a lack of understanding for agriculture, restoring nature back to health and focusing on the ecosystem as the short-term go-to place that really solves these questions of employment, community and so on in the process of fixing agriculture. We would fix community if we go into regenerative agriculture, I just got queen-lighted by business climate leaders to develop a webinar that is focused on looking at agriculture in total, looking at what is the science really say because there is all this misinformation that is being inserted into the marketplace. What is the reliability of carbon sequestration into soil? How long will it stay there? Is this really working? Can you feed people? Is it going to plummet yields and so on and so on? So we're working with the Soil Health Institute and the Rotale Institute assigned a consultant to me to develop a structure where we can confidently send our volunteers to work with members of Congress and say, here's the science, here's how this works because the window of opportunity to do something is really closing rapidly. Klaus, thank you. I remembered as you were talking the thing I wanted to say which just like escaped my head, which was that even a pandemic, which cut almost all air travel and tons of other travel and everything else couldn't bring our carbon consumption levels down to the level that experts think we need to get to, to get to the right to prevent disaster. So Greta Thunberg's voice that says, hey, we need to be on a war footing about this isn't being heard. And then Klaus, when I hear you talk about climate and what I know about regenerative agriculture and all of that, I'm like, yes, yes, got it. Why don't we just do that really fast?  And I'm like, I'm not so sure about that one. I think that there's unintended consequences left, right and center from that. And I would be, I would need to be convinced that that's the most important thing. And I've read a few things here and there. So just like any lay person who's sitting here staring at this and agrees that the problem is currently completely present is likely confused about what the alternatives look like. And I think one way we might be helpful is in expressing that dilemma and then showing what the alternatives might be and helping people who've got the best arguments to sort our way through some of those things and what to do. Well, I mean, last week it really hit me how the entire investment strategy, hedge funds and banks and so on are betting on solar electric cars and then sequestration strategies. There is now a general acceptance in the business community that sequestration has to be part of the game, right? It's too late. It's already out there. It needs to come back down. But the ideas of how to do this are ridiculous, right?  We don't know what the side effects will be whereas you have nature ready to go instantly scale up, right? But the disruptions to a trillion dollar sector of the economy will be significant, right? And so there is this, how much time do we have to argue over this? And this is getting really intense. Exactly. Thank you, Gil. Yeah, Doug and Klaus, very provocative and thank you for this. I'm structured that not only has the pandemic not brought the carbon emissions down, but it hasn't galvanized unified global action. Although it has actually much more than we, than it might have, but not as much as we had hoped. Getting vaccines as quickly as we did is remarkable even though there's failures and distribution. Klaus, I'm struck listening to you at the layers in this conversation. There's the stuff that is easy to do technological feasible economic right now, which proceeds very quickly in some regions and dozen and others. There are things that are complex and have much interdependencies like you're talking about. There's the disinformation and noise in the system. There's also the entrenched economic interest. We know the fossil fuel industry needs to go away. That's a massive industry and massively subsidized and there's enormous political power concentrated around it. So you have everything from culture and lifestyle to worldview and interpretation, to technology and feasibility and implementation issues which folks like Saul Griffith have dealt with, I think very well. And the political apparatus behind that and the concentrations of capital behind that. Each of these is a different sort of problem. They're interconnected obviously, but they don't yield to the same kinds of approaches. And I haven't seen anybody really untangle that in a thorough way. And maybe Jerry, that could be part of the exercise you're proposing for us here. So we're in the regenerative movement. I'm working really hard to focus the attention on the food service industry. If because you have farmers who get it, they understand that the climate is changing and it's really dangerous for them. You get consumers who have health concerns, nutritional value concerns. In the middle, you have a supply chain that refuses to budge. So there are only two options. Either you have the supply chain start to cooperate and come on board or you have to walk around mechanisms to force a change into the system. One thing that occurs to me, and I think this sort of is buried in what I try to bring to our approach and so far as we have an OGM approach is something like Danela Meadows points of leverage for changing a system. And coupled with Russ Acoff, who was sort of a mentor of mine and one of the early systems thinkers, saying there is no such thing as the problem. There are systems of problems and they all kind of interact. And in order to solve things, sometimes you need to tweak here, change this, change that, not just do one thing. And therefore, how might we help all the people who are tweaking at the different layers of the problem on the different levers that make a lot of sense and how do we connect their efforts? How do we sort of help amplify and collimate their energies in some sense? And so doing something everywhere seems to me to be a pretty useful way to get there and helping people sort to the most functional thing they can do locally seems really important, especially given the nexus of, I've got a thought on my brain that says we are currently in five crises, right? And be wary of the folks who say, this is the one solution to everything. Right, solar albedo management is the one answer just makes my skin rise. And I'm like, I, the geoengineering thing makes me a little crazy. Actually, right on cue, I just put a big thing in the chat exactly about that and the Kiko app, visitation dot, dot, dot. And it was the Kiko lab conversation that sparked me on solar albedo management and all that solar radiation management. Yes. Yeah, it's huge, huge topic. Thanks. Thanks. So let's go to Pete, Craig and Jack. Thank you, Jay. It's wonderful to see everybody. I have to report out something which I don't want to, but today for whatever reason, I've got a pit in my stomach as, let me start off by saying some of my best friends are pale-skinned older men. Some of them are actually pretty cool. And I'm one myself. I'm super sad today for whatever reason. We're too many pale-skinned people and too many men people and it makes me really sad. And I agree with that. Thank you for, thank you, Judy, for being here. Thank you, Linda. Thank you, Lisa. Thank you, Charlotte for joining us. Thank you, Charlotte. It's not too many, but too few of everybody else. Yeah, well said. Well said. Which means that if each of us invited someone who isn't like us into these calls, we could solve this. So. I actually, I've wondered that for a long time and I thought that was a, my guess is that's a simple, a simple, and yet maybe perhaps naive answer, initial conditions. That's my style. It's a good style. But I wonder a lot about initial conditions and how to dig yourself out of a hole and things like that. Especially when, you know, despite our monocultural illness, we're actually doing some good work in the world, I think. So not, we're not perfect, but anyway. So let me, let me move on from that. Thanks for letting me vent. I just wanted to talk about a couple of things today. We are still in preview and planning mode. So this is almost too early to talk about it on the call, except it's not quite. We had our first two OGM Wiki preview and planning calls this week and they went pretty well. To kind of recap, you'll see this in the mailing list and on the forum and on the OGM Wiki channel if you want to join in Mattermost. We're super excited. We're super jazzed about the platform that we think we can build OGM Wiki on. So that's kind of where we've got the energy to work on an OGM Wiki. The platform is coming along. It's still clunky and hard to use and not very fun. Unless you start using it and then it's super fun, but I don't want to kind of oversell where we are, but we are starting to talk about kind of, you know, what we would use a Wiki for, if we would use a Wiki and how that would work. So I'll keep having calls. I'll probably schedule one or two for next week sometime, send out an email again, and would love to have you and don't feel like you're missing out if you don't feel like attending or can't make it or whatever. It's going to be a long process of kind of coming together into Wiki mindset and an OGM Wiki. So the other thing I wanted to mention is a few of us keep mentioning this on calls. But it's still, it's coalescing nicely, I think. Obviously there's this wonderful OGM community which has these fuzzy boundaries and is a community of attraction is the way I think of it. So we don't have hard boundaries on the OGM community and people kind of like participate peripherally. And sometimes, you know, we have coalescences of different kinds that do different things. Some of them are kind of within OGM, like FreeJoy's Brain. Some of them are next door, like CSC or Flotilla. Another concentration that we've got going and that we've been working on for months now, but another concentration that we've got going is what we're calling a stewardship team, stewardship council, something like that. There's actually a channel, OGM stewards, I think, something like that. And kind of the output or the charter or the mission for that team is partly to help OGM be an amazing community and partly to take a particular concentration and make it structured enough so that it can meet up with the rest of the world in a kind of legal and financial sense. So what if we had something that I'm gonna use foundation as a word that's maybe not the right word or the right name, but what if we had an OGM foundation? That was a more structured thing that could meet up with other entities in a more formal way when that's needed. And maybe what if some of those entities were possibly partners in making the world a better place? Possibly partners in financing for funding some of the things that we think that we could do as a collective of collectives of collectives. So we're continuing to kind of focus that mission and we're pretty far along, we feel good about it. If you're interested in more, wanna know more, feel free to hop over to the Steward channel and chat with us. We normally don't bite and we're normally reasonably friendly and we'd be happy to have you. And so more news in the next weeks and maybe just weeks actually weeks and months, maybe just weeks, we'll see. Thanks. Awesome Pete, thank you, that was great. Craig, Jack, Linda. Hello everyone. Greetings. As always, it's absolutely super to be here, always inspiring and relaxing too, funnily enough, relaxing to discuss all these serious issues that we go to. As many of you will know by now, my main area of endeavor is social media and efforts to make it better. So I spend a lot of time reading about what's wrong with it and far too little time in discussions about what it could be doing. And that's kind of the direction I'm trying to take my thought processes, my creativity, I'm trying to push it towards. Away from so much of what we know of what's wrong with social media and what kind of harms it has done.  It's absolutely awful, something that really needs to be addressed, which is why I'm so passionately involved in it. This week, I came up with a term which gives me a banner to promote a banner to umbrella the effort. You can see I'm still thinking about all of this. And excited about it, which is cool. And the banner has come from my parallel interest in regenerative agriculture. I've come up with regenerative social media, which I absolutely love. So it's probably the same for everybody. If you Google regenerative social media, you get absolutely zilch. You get, what you do get is pages about, or links to pages about regenerative medicine and the social media pages which are used to promote those services. So there's, I believe I've actually coined this term regenerative social media. So I'm just excited about that. And it gives me, it starts to give me, to put form on these endeavors, which I'm trying to move forward with. What I really need from the people around me is to be back in some conversation about what is good with social media and how that could be better. And what is missing from social media, which social media would be better if it had. That kind of thing is all, these original ideas. I have a few, but I have only my one brain. So. But now you have multi-minds with you. So. Any suggestions anyone can come up with about what social media could be doing to heal itself and heal the emotional life of the people in the world more than more than welcome. I have one tiny suggestion, which is an essay I mean to write. It's sort of open in a tab in my way too many tabs browser. And basically the, it tries to address the question I just put in the Mattermost chat, which is, what if Facebook had designed this platform for citizens instead of consumers? Yeah. How might Facebook have been different? What would the proper affordances be to support citizenship, citizenry, the needs of citizens to work together and collaborate, all those kinds of things. Instead of the algorithms to increase, maximize screen time and engagement and spin us into craziness. And spy on us and sell off our data and all those other good things that we've now seemed to normalize somehow. But maybe are you on the Mattermost or the discourse form? I'm on Mattermost. Maybe what we do is we set up, find a good place for that conversation so we can sort of participate asynchronously between our calls and see who shows up and how we can help. That's actually sort of maybe one way. Anybody else with a thought? I think that we're all like in the middle or submerged in the media. And so the idea of making it better sounds really appealing to me. We're busy swimming in this. Yeah. There is a large and very active global community of tech people, sociologists, psychologists, teachers, educators, all kinds of knowledgeable people who are very, very concerned about the harms of social media. And there's a lot of talk and discussion about, about what it shouldn't be doing, but not so very much about what it should be doing. And that's, that's where I want to take it. Thank you. It strikes me, Jerry, that you actually said that last week. You posed that question last week. I forget what it was. As a platform for citizens, instead of consumers, you did. And that has fallen through the cracks on my desk. I'll tell you what I'll try to do. I'll try to keep this promise. I'm going to make a note of that. I'm pulling out of math most now. And I'll think about it myself. And put some specific effort into answering that question. That sounds lovely. Thank you. And Joe. Did you want to jump in? And I think Leo also. To some extent, yeah, I just wanted to raise my hand for Leo, actually. Yeah. Oh, good. Yeah. But, um, yeah. This is, I think the second time in, in a year that I've been on, I think it's the first time ever that Leo has been on. So I just thought it would get to, to, to acknowledge that. But yeah, but we're to Leo. We had a great conversation in the podcast also. So this is more changing the topic, but it had a little bit of a link with the regenerative social media, like maybe the stuff we were talking about in our after, after party, after our podcast session was regenerative social media, just by any other name. And we were all so excited. We, yeah, stay for hours talking about it. But yeah, maybe, maybe over to Leo. Awesome. Thank you. Leo. Yeah, sure. Sorry. Can you confirm that you can hear me properly because I, I did switch from being on a train to being here. So can you give me a light on clear?  You're coming through five by five. As the radio people say. Thank you. So yeah. So hi everyone. Sorry for making it late to the meeting today, but I was invited by Jerry and Jeff based on our interaction last Friday. So my name is Leo, Leo VVA. I'm a software engineer. I suppose it's the exercise of presenting myself. It's always a little weird because it feels like it has evolved quite a lot in the last three to four years or so. But I'm based in France and occasionally I am French and you will sometimes hear me speak French. Although you might not realize that it's actually me talking. I'm, I'm working mostly in free software development. I'm right now I'm working with a contract for the French government, but on the side and what is of interest to all of you here is that I work on a free software implementation of the room research paradigm and the software is called org Rome. It is based within Emacs on stuff like org mode and other fancy tools you might have heard about. And I've been working on a project for a year. You know, based on the exchange that I've had with Jerry and Jeff, you know, there seems to be plenty of overlap. Oh, sorry. Did I say Jeff? I mean Pete, sorry. And, you know, we have plenty, plenty of overlap between what I wanted to do with my software, what everyone else wanted to do with the software. And we thought it would be interesting for me to join you since this seems to be a conglomerate of people interested in very nebulous but yet related topics. So I'm glad to be here. And yeah, if you have any questions for the presentation, I suggest you ask them now and then I'll move on to a question on social media is because I think I might have some insight on this. Sounds great. Please. So any question regarding to what I'm doing? I'm not sure if I'm making a coach and job of presenting myself. I'm not trained enough for this yet. I think you did great. I put a link to you in my brain in the chat so people can follow that and see more context. And I just realized that you weren't connected to org Rome. So I'm trying to explain org Rome in the chat. So if you have any questions or questions, I think we're good. I think we sort of get to know each other through the conversations about topics. So go ahead and jump in about about social media if you want. Yes. So I think the idea of social media is very interesting to me because with the within the e-max ecosystem, I would say I tend to be focused on community and how to foster such a sense within the community. You know, I am one of the organizers of the e-max conference, which happened last edition in November. And we have a proximity to the community. We're trying to see how do we, you know, develop relationship between users, but also how do we develop relationship between developers and users, developers to developers, developers to community people, community people, et cetera, et cetera, all the possible permutations you can think of. And somehow at no point during this discussion or this reflection, the word social media was used. Maybe because it is such an acne term and whenever you think of social media, you think of all the negative aspects. So I guess I'm first interested in this healing aspect of social media, but maybe what I'd like to ask under this light would be how exactly, what do we keep within social media and what do we leave off? And something a little more involved of an answer than just remove the negative algorithm and keep what's good, because I think that's a question that warrants a little bit of investigation. So that's my question. If that makes sense. Is anybody want to take a swing or Craig? That is my question too. That is my question too. What do we keep? I think we keep what we, what we know is and have experienced has been positive and valuable. And we get rid of everything that we have already identified, which is, is, is damaging and detrimental to society. I would like to see a, as I wrote something yesterday, can I just, I thought this was, I, I felt good about writing it. So let me just read it off quickly. Would be a positive, would be a prolifer, proliferation, excuse me, of social apps and websites, which promote the positive, the factual, the educational, the intelligent, which promotes the value of critical thinking, which attracts millions of people into discussions and debates, raises the collective appreciation of healthy and sustainable social, industrial and commercial solutions. And which reduces the dismayingly widespread tendency towards the egotistical, the narcissistic, the dismissive, the combative and the downright ignorant. So you just want to change human nature? Yeah, really. That would be, that would be nice too, but perhaps too, too high a goal and well with the scope, outside the scope of, of, of what I'm attempting to do. To, to stop social media being so negative and destructive is, is one side of the equation. And the other side is to regenerate social media such that it becomes positive, positive, positive. Okay. If I may just have a quick question on this.  Just bouncing back on what you said. Obviously, when social media was designed. Now it might have not been done in such an eloquent rent as you did right now, but I'm pretty sure the objectives were as noble at the start. So I think the question then becomes, if we have an example, example of something that went wrong, that's something that, you know, colonized all of our lives and especially our children's life, well, maybe not me, another young, but your children. What are the checks that we need to implement so that the new system that we develop does not hand up being corrupted in the same way as the former one. If that makes sense. And we have a lot of hands up. And also I just want to say that we, we are unlikely to solve this problem in this discussion. So I just want to go lightly over the topic and then actually what I can do is collect up the people with interest, Craig, and hand them off to you to host a conversation of your own and so forth. So yeah, so let's go. If you can drop in Vincent, you had your hand up and Doug, then George. And John. Thank you. Thanks, Jerry. Yeah, the question that came into my head when Leo and Craig you were speaking is, are we your reflection of our social media or is our social media reflection of us?  I think it's both. And I also have been thinking about like seeing my friends that are deleting Facebook and asking myself, why don't I delete Facebook? And it's because there is a lot of utility to it that for me overweighs the negative, including knowing what's going on with those you care about being connected to opportunities that you otherwise would not have if you were not on social media and also occasionally to sort of solve boredom. But like, so there are some main kind of reasons I feel like people don't delete Facebook or other apps because of the negatives. And maybe we just need to have more like focused services that can kind of meet those needs and maybe those things that meet boredom or meet connecting people to opportunities are not even social media. But I think we need to figure out how to replace the positive before we can get rid of the negative. Thanks, Vincent. I had George Doug and John and then we'll go back to our cue. I think it's largely a matter of how social media is used. It's so flexible. That, you know, in 2008 when I wrote my book on word of mouth, I spent a month because the social media had just been invented on social media and it was the worst month of my life. And I never really went back to it till about eight or nine months ago when I reactivated my participation in Twitter. And it was also awful. But there was enough good people in there that I, what I learned to do is curate my feed and drop the political stuff and use lists to drop people into lists and then unfollow them. Anyway, through a lot of curating and careful selection, it became a completely different thing. I've got only really intelligent people who are constructive and just a wonderful feed. And I've just eliminated, I've got one for instance called platitudes. And everybody who spouts platitudes, you get about two platitudes, two or three platitudes with me. By your third platitude, you're on my platitude list because I don't want to eliminate people. It doesn't feel right. So I put them on the platitude list and follow them. And then I never look at the platitude list unless I want to write a humorous tweet about platitudes. Then boy, do I have a collection of platitudes. So, so with careful, my point is, I think I've already made that, that, that, you know, Facebook and Twitter and all these things can be used very constructively. There are some wonderful people and many of you people are on Twitter. There, there, there are some wonderful people who are enormously constructive, very supportive with DMs and behind the scenes and getting out to Zoom calls and all that. So it really, I think a more realistic and achievable goal Craig might be to kind of change it from the inside. There are a lot of people who are actively talking on Twitter about, you know, this corner of Twitter or that corner of Twitter or how can we make this corner of Twitter more productive? And I think that's the way to go to to improve it from the inside rather than invent something, something new. Let's go. Doug, John, Charlotte, me and back to the queue. Thanks. Well, I kind of agree with the last comment. I think there are two states of the same thing. And it's a complex interaction of people, their mindsets and desires. And it's going to be a social evolution, not a technical fix. Yep. Thank you. And I missed. Mark is also in the queue. I missed him. Gesturing for attention. So let's go. John, Charlotte, Mark. Go ahead, John. Okay. Thank you. This is just a quick. This is quick and dirty sloppy. But it's an idea. So this would have to be funded, but it's not a huge investment. But some. Benefits and funders says, okay, listen. Show up. Show up with. 25 to 50 people. By the way, you can't be all white. Males. Show up with a somewhat diverse group of 25 to 50 people. And we're going to click you on what click you on means is. We're going to give you a citizenship. We're going to give you something. It's something like the budget game. We're going to give everybody here.  And we're going to do some things together. We're not going to decide big issues. We're not going to try to fix climate change, but we're going to do some minor things together. That experiment with how we use our votes and use our. Identification. This is a better idea. This is a not so good idea. And by the way, you can bring people in. It's invitation only. I mean, it starts with that 25 to 50, but you can bring people in. You get rewarded for bringing people in, but they're there when they come in, they're linked to your name just like clubhouse. And you basically, you build the good. In a greenhouse. You experiment with this thing. Things will go wrong. I'm sure. But, but some good stuff that I know happens. When people have votes as opposed to dollars.  Everybody gets the same amount of money. And they use them in a way that's kind of in between real money and voting. And I've seen that happen a number of times. I've facilitated a whole bunch of these things. So you run something like that. You get it going. If you get a few. Tribes. That are diverse. That have grown up. Learning how to make. Increasingly complex decisions using votes. Using identification. This is a better idea.       Then you go to a regular social media outlet. Might even be Twitter and you say, Hey, we got this active thing over here and it works. Now, it could all come into Twitter. But. You know, we're going to have to change the infrastructure so that it can, it can support what they're doing. And not. They have to have. Everybody do this. But it's got to like. This is the greenhouse. You want to come into the greenhouse. This is how it works. And you'll receive some votes when you come in. and but these are the rules you're signing up for when you come in it's just an idea I know it's you know I can think of I could knock this idea down myself if I need if I needed to but I just want to put it into the queue and you know help generate other ideas and by the way this this can count as my my check-in um because the other stuff I'm doing it's all doesn't have it's all private it's writing and helping people and you know nice but that's all I need to say about it in terms of a check-in so thank you very much if anybody wants to follow up on variations on the budget game as social media please contact me I'd be happy to work on that thank you awesome thanks john thanks very much now let's go charlotte mark me and you're muted charlotte now you're unmuted perfect I get three monitors so I have to figure out which one to activate the um I'm charlotte pierce and um I've been involved with the piragaji project since one of Howard rangold's courses um I took online and I have no idea how I found it but somewhere I think I was looking up my I was looking up the well because way back in what the 70s or something there was the well do people remember that I don't think it goes back to the 70s yeah it goes back to early pc days it was a dial-up system that used ram picot span and my first email id was spiff at well and I was trying to remember my first well thing and I couldn't I just I don't know where to find it I Howard can you just find it for me but I mean the well's still out there I guess it's you know costs quite a bit to join or something now but I don't know I um so we got together with the piragaji group you know we started right away I think in 2012 didn't we Joe um doing live video conferencing on google hangouts and I I think that's what really brought us together and that's why I like this forum you know it just it brought people from a lot of different places walks of life and cultures we had people from Sri Lanka and Mexico Ecuador we had you know so I don't know what my point is but I like this and I'm just trying to make you know help make that project go forward and define some of the patterns that are relevant to people's enterprises and projects make it more practical and and connect it with because I think silos are like the thing that will bring us all down you know we get there's a Eric Erickson had this concept called pseudo speciation and we get into these ideas that we're you know there's another species that we're at war with out there and I don't think we're going to survive that way so that's about it I publish books I do three pod three and a half podcasts including the pyrogadge in action podcasts and we'd love to kind of cycle through all you your projects in that podcast eventually I think that would be a good source of of topics it'd be awesome and you and Joe just hosted Pete and me in a lovely podcast which is online and let me submit to Craig that the pyrogadge work is probably going to offer you lots and lots of resources and also there's the wise democracy pattern language from Tom Adley and lots of lots of contributors there is the liberating structures work from Nancy White and lots of contributors and I think each of these has created a body of work about how to make citizens more like how to make you how to make us more like citizens and collaborators than consumers and couch potatoes so if you're if you're on a quest for how do we make us smarter while using these tools because these all of these are tool-wise approaches I think those would be really really terrific things to get to get to get started on sorry go ahead charlotte oh I I've brought those concepts in that way of working into my own my other publishing enterprise you know so now I just work with authors as partners and it gets messy you know it gets messy and people get you know uppity about stuff and they don't want to do this or that without getting paid and it's but it's so rewarding I just don't I don't I don't even want to do it without having a collaboration because I feel like my brain is being extended mm-hmm love that um thank you mark it's nice to see and you're holding the child for ransom behind you it seems like go ahead well you were complaining about just a bit white people on the on the call so thank you yeah um yeah and it's it's a popo uh also because that's that's what I've been doing for the last eight years is to work with um indigenous communities mostly in the amazon um and my activities were kind of a stop I mean actually my my traveling there went to a stop when when covid started the amazing thing that that that happened with cavities a return to for a lot of tribes in the amazon to traditional medicines was a big big thing and and what I have observed is in countries where indigenous tribes are protected like Ecuador the death rate was very low compared to countries where they are under assault like in Brazil so the last year has been very particular because of the lack of traveling and so one of two topics that I've taken and brought to my indigenous friends um through lots of conversation online is uh two of the topics that have been touched upon today um one is uh renewable energies the other one is uh although not touched directly but is this attempt to put about 30 percent of earth into some kind of a conservation scheme um and what I want to say about this is uh for the green new deal if you we look at the green new deal at a planetary level um I will call it um you know based on this great movie uh there will be blood um we we again you know we look at things in a very short term um views and the problem with this green new deal is um if the source of energy is renewable the technology that we are using to honest it is not is still based on extractive industries and um that's that's going to be uh it has already happened in bolivia but it's going to be uh um put much more stress on indigenous communities the same way it's putting 30 percent of uh planet earth into this conservation scheme uh where the attempt is really to capitalize on nature so-called natural services um that also going to exclude indigenous people and the thing that we we have our time realizing is um where indigenous people have land rights or customary rights that's where you'll find the greatest um biodiversity on earth about 80 percent of biodiversity is found on indigenous land right so there is there is a complete lack of um integrating indigenous people into these conversations because it will make us very uncomfortable when we look at the reality of a green new deal so that's that's my spiel for this morning and i'm really happy to see you all of you thank you thank you for being here and um i just read an article um in the last week that was about how as people tried to protect nature they created wilderness areas which often push indigenous people off their damned lands which was terrible and i have a belief that people who know what they're doing and have good intentions are really good for the landscape they they help preserve and enrich the landscape in many different ways so i think a piece of what you're talking about includes helping custodians of those parts that we want to protect stay on the land and protect the land as opposed to i think many people's idea that oh that means we have to just clear these areas and make sure nobody lives in those newly protected lands i think that and this is just my own opinion on this thing absolutely correct jerry and and that comes back to the late 1900s and john murrier and all this push to to set up this big conservation area in the united states and and that model is still in existence and you can look at what's happening with worldwide form with uh nature conservation and so forth so these are big NGOs it's it's really a business yeah business so you set up you set up a large area and it's managed by these people and they sell uh concessions to indigenous people i mean just just a thought of it is it's man-boggling um that happens in Guatemala um so it happens in Africa it happens in in um Southeast Asia and uh yeah so so it's um it's a big problem because uh we tend to think of wild donuts as wild donuts white has mostly been shaped by us um so us two thousand years before we enter this big uh change of civilization but also uh by indigenous people in the amazon you get it it's man-made it's it's lovely yes and there's a whole long history that that i can point to before i go to class one more thing i wanted to add in which is a friend of ours and rick salla has a proposal to take 50 of the ocean and make it a marine preserve in which case for me this this sort of the people don't live sort of in those parts of the ocean but right now if you look at a map of marine preserves there's just little slices here and there and and if we actually manage to keep people from fishing 50 of the ocean uh the fish abundance would lead to like crazy like you know there'd be plenty of fish in the other areas to fish out it's just a matter of how do you control those commons uh in a reliable way but but if fish knew that they could go over to like quadrant a four and not be hunted down and like ah i don't know about bob he keeps going into quadrant c six and like they're fishing there but something like that i think would help a lot sorry over to you class yeah what mark is saying uh george monbiot is one advocate for you know reviving it's it's pretty controversial in a lot of uh applications because there is no such thing as nature as it was you know before uh the european settlers traveled into europe and bought all their domesticated animals in and killed all the buffaloes and basically changed the entire ecosystem so to go back to what is the difficult thing but it really shows that we have to have a unifying concept but we have to have a a plan a vision you know where all these things fit in and have their place so we can then collectively work towards that and to me that's the big thing missing is there is no common vision as to what this final system really looks like in total because it has to feed you know the steering onto 10 billion people it has to be done in a sustainable way um and it has to be we still have to protect nature and the diversity of the natural world so those are big things that that really require a consolidated discussion i mean a consolidating discussion yeah and your group and and and what i'm doing we have a lot of common i'm quite like i mean present or actively a little bit on on on the sold for climate on facebook um so i suppose sometimes i come from a farmer's family and i seen the the damage of uh intensive farming on my family lots of cancers um you know sorry that is being degraded has been degraded very rapidly so much so that my cousins who are keeper of the lens now um have had to go back to restorative methods for the farms but on on on the bigger picture if i may i'm working also with a professor from kenya called modekai ogada and he wrote this great book she holds it right in front of you yeah what's it the big what the big conservation line thank you we will look it up and post it in the chat yeah it's a good book thank you so much sitting um thank you and i wanted to go back to craig's question with mike sort of offer to it which is an observation about more than social media it's about lots of different sectors and it's it's it's a blanket statement sort of but capitalism eats and warps really good ideas and here's here my notes to myself just remember what i wanted to say uh like my wife when i met her was in microfinance and microfinance starts with muhammad well one thread of microfinance starts with muhammad unis giving 21 uh bangladeshi women you know 20 bucks worth of a loan that they circulate around the group there's a whole bunch of really interesting things about it its spirit and and direction are great and then big money and other places get a hold of of of it and suddenly you get into a place a decade later where in india people are committing suicide because they took one microfinance loan from this entity then another one from this entity then another one from this entity to pay that one and they're now in debt up to their like nostrils and they're killing themselves and a bunch of other bad things happened in microfinance but a lot of that happens because it got centralized massivized capitalized and a bunch of things happen there uber is not a good example of a sharing economy but the ideas behind the sharing economy are really great so there's all these kinds of ways and i remember being i think i think i was a little bit of an advisor to early twitter and i remember the day they got 145 million in bc funding their first round and i thought to myself oh this is trouble like this is actually going to create more problems than it's worth because it's going to be really hard to advertise and monetize twitter if they could only take an open source direction of some sort and put this out as a platform they might actually change society in productive ways but this is this didn't feel like a like a big win and then if you look at the history of radio and tv the early radio sort of pioneers were granted enormous swaths of spectrum for free and then given all kinds of legal protections in order to because people thought it was going to be very expensive to do all the stuff when in fact pirate radios and all that were sort of already burgeoning and it isn't that expensive to do these kinds of things and so and then i did at the end i was like oh shit and copyright laws and the overextension of copyright laws and the overprotection of intellectual property is all part and parcel of this thing uh so sorry for the longest screed on my own uh part uh we jack had to fall off the call and he was in the queue but uh i wanted to go to linda vincent and judy uh and so linda yeah thank you yeah so a couple of weeks ago the fear memes that are out there regarding vaccination came away from two different sources my best buddy who uh i was pestering to get vaccinated and seems he had a call with his republican older brother who influences him and then he wasn't going to get vaccinated anymore and uh naturopath very lefty naturopath who we got an email from and i'm gonna put the file in the chat sorry i don't know how to do matter most that's okay well copy and paste thanks linda you've tried really hard to get on matter most and i really appreciate that there we go so i wrote jerry will that open uh let's find out uh should be fine it's in pages so it's not really a normal doc pete can we translate pages uh yeah i'll do it thank anyways i wrote jerry because i i thought well it may be a place to start answering it you know these these memes are out there they're viral they're fear based and 40 percent of republicans say they're not going to get vaccinated they need to be these claims which i think are pseudoscience need to be answered widely and i don't see that happening um i quote the statistic of all the people who don't want to get vaccinated but the specifics of the memes that are circulating i have not heard them answered so i wrote jerry because i thought somebody in this group is going to know somebody who knows the specifics and it seems like it would be a good place to start would be with facts so i wanted to put this out there and see you know who has the facts i mean claims like it'll harm your dna it's not effective um and a variety of things like that so you know i'm some of them are clearly answerable you know it's it's not black or white it is effective or not effective it's just the correct answer would be a percentage in each case but some of the other ones i don't have the answers to so but just putting that out there in case anybody wants wants to come back or has a place to circulate widely the answers to these extremely viral memes that are out there thanks thanks linda this i love and i i love this question even though i dread this question it's like oh my god well how did this happen but how do we get out of it pete go ahead um thanks for highlighting that linda and i've i've got good news and bad news mostly bad news i think um this is an interesting question to me and and i was one of the people who was started like coveted information back in april last year or something like that and i kind of petered out of of interest all the information is out there it's easy pretty easy to find actually you know truth the the problem that we've got especially in the us is truth is not not an easy concept right um so thank goodness now we've got dr fouchy not being not being thwarted by his boss um my wife who follows a lot of coveted information intensively is now pretty unhappy with dr fouchy because he's not you know he's not stepping up to the plate and saying the things that he should say um the the people that she listens to her are very very very good um kind of long-winded there's michael elster home and uh dr john i forget his last name on youtube um dr john literally has been doing every day amazing long video on on youtube about anything and everything covet related um listening to him for a couple days makes your blood pressure go down probably prevents covet um uh it it's um you know so the problem isn't information the problem isn't saying the information michael elster home will say to or um uh the other guy and i forget um uh the information that out there it's said a lot so i i have reflected on why you know why dr fouchy just doesn't say the right things you know and especially when my wife gets really upset about it she's she's like he should be doing the right thing i i think we're in this really complicated situation in the us where saying the right thing is not good enough even saying that you're you know that other there there are people that you should listen to or saying the right thing don't even listen to me because you know i'm in the federal government and i guess i guess you hate the federal government or think we're all stupid or the whole world is upside down and the federal government it's out to get you and kill all the children and have god you know knows what you know all of that stuff makes it so that public health especially in the us where i live and you know other places in the world are kind of similar public health information is just a nightmare um and saying the right thing is hard and saying that you're going to say the right thing or that somebody else could say the right thing is hard it just doesn't work so we're you know we're double triple bound wound up around the former president's you know axle still and and will continue to be so um there is a channel fyi there's i'm so sorry to say this linda um there is a channel on matter most uh that's actually a coronavirus you know wisdom channel um a few people post their uh interesting and useful stuff as as somebody who's posted interesting and useful stuff um i've still got a sub stack where you know 100 people subscribe to me saying what i think is important about stuff i've pretty much dried up it's like you know either either you're kind of like into the right channel and you get the you know you you're you're hearing stuff or you're not ever going to hear stuff so you know there by the way thanks thanks also for this topic and thanks linda um the variant the variants um b117 the uk variants um they're ravaging europe right now um and the u.s is super happy because we're all done with covid and we can then take off our masks and then we can you know go back to amusement parks we can go out and have party and have fun that is us riding on the coattails of the the previous wave we're about to hit the new wave so it's it's rising now um you know a month ago it was the calm before the storm we're in the storm right now it's just that the the exponential growth is looks like this right unless you're looking very carefully and then it looks like this but the exponential growth is like this and it's going to be like that and you know within a month or so so uh take care of yourselves and anybody who will listen to you um take all the precautions that you did in april it's not better now than it was in summer last year it is not it's worse um it's just that we've gotten fatigued and the country as a collective and surprisingly enough like even the political infrastructure can't like bring itself to coordinate the fact that this is the time that we really need to be vigilant you know it's it's too hard literally too hard to do that in the public sphere in the us it's amazing um briefly i think it's really like central to ogm just try to figure out how to demonstrate show connect collect express these sorts of things uh whether it's whether it's climate change whether it's vaccines whether it's whatever i think that's that's sort of core business for us but also um sometimes like it isn't about logic it isn't about hey here's proof of the scientific whatever it's about emotions and membership and all that kind of stuff and so i just typed into the chat like hey maybe the like sisters like sister to strategy would work which is basically a sex strike uh it worked in liberia uh there's uh you know there's a nice documentary about the sex strike in liberia where there were warring factions and the women basically said y'all don't get y'all don't find peace there's no sex for anybody and they apparently they're pretty unified on the senate work and sex doesn't have to be women against men it can be any side so one could say unless vaccine no intimacy or whatever and maybe that bridges groups i don't know if it's it's kind it's kind of silly but kind of serious my favorite social change strategy is taking a friend by the hand to try something new and so so if we have friends who will take us in to just hey i've got a double date for vaccination set up on tuesday let's go do it perhaps maybe that does it don't know but but maybe there are social hacks and maybe this goes back to social platforms as well that can help us bridge some of these gaps because just trying to make our way through the logic ignores the fact that most of these people are at the far side or many of these people surprisingly many are at the far side of the spectrum pete was describing which is like the government does out to get me they're going to chip me uh nobody's trustworthy uh everybody's lying etc etc and and and that's a desperate place that we've sort of gotten ourselves into leathers you did you want to jump back in okay um cool mark yeah i also want to when we say that get to also keep in mind that if people don't trust the government it's not just because there are fake news or because we had to turn for four years it's also because a lot of people feel that the government has let them down yeah and and in many ways it has i mean it's it's really interesting right it totally has um we're running out of time a couple of us have to bolt in about seven or eight minutes but let's go vincent judy joe and see how far we go thanks jerry i'll try to be quick um so i am finding the new energy to jumping back into the shared calendar project hopefully with some others now and if anyone else is interested in joining um shoot us a message in the matter most i don't know if we have a channel um but the main issue yeah the flotilla channel um and the main issue that we were having before was with reoccurring events syncing up with the the calendar um and so um hopefully within the week we'll have that fixed and have some updates by next week um also in terms of flotilla um and particularly with the project that i've been serving catalyst um i've been making some really good progress on people and project profiles um which can be used across communities and also hopefully for the cop climate event to start to kind of map out different climate projects and how people can get involved um and so the kind of like last two points i have in in regards to this last conversation i just wanted to bring in the term precautionary principle which is approach to innovations with the potential for causing harm when our knowledge is kind of lacking and i really wish as a society we we actually took that principle into some sort of action and i feel like it's a lot easier to prevent problems from happening that can be easily predicted than trying to like put band-aids and solve it after it's spun out of control and like where where is the department of precautionary principles in our government right like i feel like that's the entire purpose of government and yet i feel like it's a principle that's not even like vaguely uh acted on um the last point is like i'm wondering if anyone knows if there's a global accounting system for like what are all of the things we need to do i know there's the sdgs and then below that there's like the metrics but is there like a master list of all of the numbers that we need to hit in order to basically like in one easy clear place that you could then also connect it to projects and say okay if this project is successful it's going to chop down one percent of the carbon budget in order to stay at a certain part per million i just feel like the scale of the problem is so up in the air and it's not very clear and tangible to me and it's something that i feel like has very hard fixed constraints like our planet is deterministic we have some like constraints there in some ways um but yeah i'm wondering if anyone has information about that um vincent i'm done speaking thanks everyone thanks vincent uh go ahead pete welcome ray and thank you for for joining us well um glad you glad you're here sorry that we're slow in getting to you and to say hi i just wanted to say hi right now um go ahead pete um i uh thank you for asking that question vincent and and in in my small slice of knowledge of the world i don't know of such a thing and the things that i know of that are kind of towards this such a thing start to have um bias uh essentially personal bias very very very quickly so anything that collects a lot of information starts to get super biased and it's not general generalizable but i i would i would have a plea for this group um most people if they ask the question can we track all the things i would say yeah whatever you know you don't know what you're talking about you've just grasped boiling the ocean a boiling the ocean problem if anybody can solve this in the world it's vincent if we can give them all the help that we can on how do we metricize everything and understand the the levers and the balances vincent is the the guy that could kind of organize all of that somehow he's magic at that and and um it it would be a great effort so love that and um a friend of mine andy this is this is off track for what you're saying vincent but in the long run it's absolutely not friend of mine andy mefe inspired by a different guy who was slightly uh i don't know where but had looked at bookkeeping and most companies are keeping three or four kinds of books and different sets of books they've got sort of their tax books they've got their manufacturing books they've got the material that they're tracking they're doing all these and they don't really tie together and the kind of accounting that andy was working on was was actually sort of an energy exchange accounting where a single transaction could play out and could register in one place all those different aspects of what's happening uh in really really interesting ways and he's not a coder and he was struggling this has been going on for a decade or more probably 15 years but it's but it's actually really fascinating so anybody who wants to know just send me an email and say andy mefe and i'll connect you with him see where he is but but the the idea was that if he could deliver the system he was working on then when you talk sdgs and when you talk wall street you'd be working from the same set of books uh that understood how those transactions actually interacted uh and that that being said i think vincent the thing you're looking for the thing he's worked that andy's working on that that the capillary systems and the interactions between all these systems are so complicated that they will they will be hard to you know they won't yield easily to accounting innovations or accounting systems so we've got to figure out how else to do this but um but thank you and we've only got like a minute or so left uh in our call uh so how about judy do you want to do a real quick check in um great call love to see the new faces because it helps enrich our group excuse me i've been busy on a lot of collective intelligence stuff working with a number of you on side projects and we'll do for a 20 other time thanks sounds awesome thanks judy um and and joe do you want to check in we still have a like a minute or two yeah sure just to say um you know this is an interesting call with lots of different ideas going around i i um like dog's point about the people evolving alongside the technology i would say this seems to be more like the people evolving part and i hope that we can follow up more about the technology evolving part perhaps in a different call but i think yeah there was a lot of excitement from uh me and leo i don't know that we had an after after after party because we were too tired but we did carry on the discussion the next day so i just wanted to mention that excitement uh whether that happened sort of on your side as part of csc or on our side i should tag in and we have a discord where we're on there all the time um and so there's another place where people who want to engage probably more on the technical side could uh find me and leo regularly and then yes as charlotte said a plug for pure dodgy later today i'm kind of ongoing as in when there's time so um it's a bit vague but yeah just summary interest in in following up on the technical side for these things well thank you um ray would you like to take a second and just introduce yourself and and i think it's it's fun that you found your way here i'm glad you like the conversation i'm curious how how things connected um yeah might be eric willikens if he's in this room yeah he's just not on this call but he's in this group right okay now it all makes sense because i was expecting a call with him and then suddenly this interesting conversation um so i uh i'm a refugee from from climate work i now work on global catastrophic risk specifically on the food system and things that could happen to break it up in the next 20 years so we look at ways to recover food supplies very quite pragmatic and connected to the effective altruism movement we have a lot of um volunteers from there so we've got a 501c3 and we're sitting up in the uk i'm calling from oxford although i'm often in south asia um and i've also been pretty involved with nonviolent communication brilliant we have so many overlaps with the work we do and uh some areas that we're not talking enough about so i'm really thrilled you found us by mistake even well it's nuclear is still an issue and volcanoes will definitely happen so those are the ones that i like volcanic example because it's we've got good research in the uk and volcanologists really love volcanoes exactly what's not to love um we have to fold the call it's been uh lovely thank you all for being here show up tomorrow at eight i'm going to send the invite a little later today but put eight a.m tomorrow if you'd like to talk about what oGM is and like do the blind men in the elephant exercise and uh see you see them thanks everybody is the person who asked about the precautionary principle still here i am hi hi there's a problem with the precautionary principle there's an unlimited number of things you could take precautions for and you would spend all your budgets preventing things and nothing do nothing positive that's the main difficulty so you you have to do a combination of basic duty of care prevention preparedness resilience recovery you know horses for courses you can't obviously every time something bad happens people say we should have the precautionary principle but you can't you just can't do it for everything so you you know you you can do it for volcanoes which makes more sense than doing it for comets because comets are vanishingly rare and there's not much you could do anyway whereas there's quite a bit you can do for volcanic preparedness i agree i think um yeah there's definitely a balance um and i think we are way on one side of that balance at the moment but in terms of the precaution with viruses obviously i mean when you look at what's been spent on dealing with the pandemic it's blindingly obvious to everyone that early early monitoring and and lockdown would have been ideal yeah exactly so i i think um i i just feel like it's something that um like when i learned it in school i was like this seems so obvious and yet it seems like just like concept that doesn't even like permeate through the kind of like culture of like like like obviously we should prevent problems instead of trying to solve them when it's too late um it does if you concentrate on the physical and and biological sciences but if you do the humanities and the politics and the communication and the prioritization and the economics it it starts to look a bit different of what's the most worth thing what's the thing we should do first becomes the question rather than what's worth doing because everything's worth doing yeah i think the one thing that i've been thinking about lately so i was listening to a daniel schmackenberger talk and he was talking about how um with like progress of innovation technological innovation um most technological innovations end up creating more that solve a problem end up creating more problems right so like the car solved transportation problem but it causes other like three or four other problems um and what we have basically like i don't think that that i agree with him that i don't think that can go on like we cannot continue to progress at the same rate technologically and that's not true if the analysis is complete but but that in healthcare that would be true but like lifespan has still been increasing until very recently i mean you could argue about it now right so it's not no single equation that explains the whole of reality that you then say nothing else is going on so we've got to deal with this one equation you can do that for biomass of humans if that's if you analyze the world looking at just mammalian biomass it looks terrible but it's not permanent it's not the only thing that's going on yeah yeah um i think in terms of like uh it depends definitely on the the industry um i guess what i'm saying is i think if we were to like slow the pace of technological innovation and advancement seems to me very much out of sync with our pace to like govern to catch up socially and culturally and so i think low down the progress to allow for more of a balance in precaution of development to make sure that things we are progressing in a way that is not creating more negative externalities than it is creating how how what's the okay what's the what's the implementation science and the economic science that makes what you're proposing possible so if you if you start with the tractability of it you're never going to do that because you can't stop people can't stop the chinese progressing with technology what you can do is try to improve governance and it has but at least it's possible you know it does happen does seem to happen over time you know economically we seem to be more competent than we were in the 1930s yeah i guess i i mean if the accounting systems that we have for our economics are solely based off of growth then you're right it's there's no reason to not slow there's no reason to slow down i think if you were to take the approach of having different metrics like okay like if like i could make if you give me a year um and like i could do massive amounts of research i could probably present a pretty good argument that if we slow down technological growth by incorporating more precautionary principle within innovation that is able to then focus the progress on certain innovations that have a higher potential to do more good and less negative in like a very systemic way then i would argue you you could you know take metrics like happiness or environmental sustainability and those metrics would be higher than your gdp and obviously i'd like to lock you in a room with some cynical people from the cia for a week to understand to sort of get some handles on how they look at influencing what really happens in the world because they're very very hard-headed people john is gonna come in on well i you know i you guys are having a kind of a default private room here at the end of jerry and i stuck around because i really like what you're saying so i hope that's okay yeah yeah this this is not an answer uh in you know answer in the complete sense um i know about the the room of cia guys and the room of cynics and how that would sound um i had this kind of transforming experience uh by doing these short uh uh uh participatory budgeting things and they weren't full they weren't full they were partial so they would in other words we we get a bunch of people a really good random group we take the table we we have the budget for the city we divide it up by number of people we hand them the play money and we put a time limit on it and we say okay here's the program here's what we're doing now what do you think more or less more for this or less for this so it's it's not the purists of participatory budgeting hate this they think it's terrible and the purists of random selection hate this they say no no no you didn't randomize the people there's all going to be a little criticized but it had this wonderful effect of pulling people out of their uh it didn't destroy their passion but like passion isn't going to do it intensity is not going to do it you've got it you got stuff in your hand you got dollars in your hand where are you going to put them you know and having put them down it's it's a recommendation it's not a final decision you put it down that's a recommendation then you hear back later from the government that says we accept your recommendation or we're going to have to say no here's why yeah the the satisfaction that comes from oh i was heard i put it down this is what happened i think that's actually the future of governments and there's no reason to do it now we don't we don't have to send representatives to an electoral college across the continent to make decisions anymore we're using a yeah well i i've read the whole and you probably have two the whole liquid democracy uh conversation and it's it's wonderfully idealistic and it works for the whatever percent it is is it two percent five percent of the people who are so into the exquisite rationality of of you know that works for them but it won't work for everybody else so so well how it actually happens it's like the young turks and i'm thinking of vincent is a bit like one of the young turks with you know this perfectly designed ethical way of this new turkey that's going to happen and then along comes at a turk and takes guns and and you know canon from the british and the french and actually creates the new turkey and sweeps us up the young turks takes one or two more ideas but not many yeah that's that's how change you know in the cia know this perfectly well they replace the regimes as and when it suits them it's probably probably do it online now um in ways but they have very smart people they do look at how the world works and the reason lots of countries are paranoid about them is that they are remarkably effective when they want to be well do you do you would you agree though that they have um had to come to terms with much greater uh of being much more circumscribed in terms of what they're able to do well i'm sure they're much more subtle now than yeah well i mean not just subtle not just subtle but they they realize they can't have the effect they would have had in the past and also that you know there's other big players doing disinformation i don't know how to assess it i only have one real world example which is that there was a cyclone in in madagascar that cut off the south of the island so the cia guy from the embassy was dropped in in the south from a helicopter with a rucksack full of money and a water filter and a thermo rest he didn't even speak french let alone malagasy but he set up a tent he got someone to make a tent for him he sat down with his rucksack and money and he got the roads reopened you know people he sent people he paid people you get through to the capital i don't care how you do it there's not much to pay and this is the message i want you to take so you and you know that created a path and that became a track and then eventually a vehicle could cross it and that's that's how he worked i mean they and so they're probably it's a great example it's it's the exception that proves the rule in the sense of do you need a cycle you know in other words you have to knock all the competing forces down for that force to have as much power as it does he did go into effectively a terra incognita yeah exactly yeah he was until he got basically his job was to get the wfp in so but until that he was the only power in town so yeah right and in a messier real life situation with multiple forces i mean the other the other example that comes to me in terms of the well they're so good they're so good at picking out where they can have an impact and i don't think did they try with brexit i mean i don't know what your feelings are about it mine is that it was it would have been close anyway and it's possible that the russians tipped it i don't think anybody expected until until the night itself i don't think anybody thought that they would win except one or two maniac brexit tears i mean not the sensible ones they thought they would lose yeah so do you do you think you think uh i'm sure the russians you think subsidized disinformation i expected yeah do you think subsidized disinformation i.e russians and others had a decide could could have had a deciding i think in more like decades of rupert murdoch yeah okay that's all right all right especially in the north of england you know right right so that comes back to the idea of nurturing resilient self-governance in in groups of people so that they become not immune but more resistant so i mean if they have if they have many many positive experiences i got together the group we had money in our hands you know funny money we use the funny money like you had to pay to forward information you had to pay to like something but with this funny money which i'm more willing to spend i wouldn't spend my own money but i would spend this funny money that you gave me do it with limited amounts of real money yeah let me know where's the funny money at the end of the game you get something of real value you can't convert it into knowledge there is something called the money game which i've done with real cash but the brief is that you come into the workshop with the amount of money you could afford to lose yeah pain and then it is real money and you do walk away with um you know what what you what you yeah so there's a dial here there's a dial between fiat real currency and and completely fake currencies are finding the right balance between learning and experience yeah i i think it's not it's not real money i mean that's a different game it might be valuable but that's one kind of game and there's a completely fake thing and that's too idealistic i think people have you give them funny money that says funny money on it but they have in their heads that at a certain point i'm going to you know there's going to be prizes there's going to be something of value that comes to me based on how how uh my participation in the game did i did i value things what's up tools could and should become self-governing i mean my school was governed by old boys it's a charity school and the board of governors is old boys and they are just way out of date just like parents are terrible governors for school right i would trust that the people who should be making the syllabus are 14 year olds because they're at least at least having the kind of input of what's coming and what they're going to find useful than any careers advisor i mean when i remember the the lectures we had on careers it was so out of date and such bad advice we were given you know uh they were just they were i mean this is real example from 1984 i think they said no don't do computing do do electronic engineering and don't do graphic design or art which was completely the wrong advice yeah i mean more wrong right so so i'm gonna have i'm gonna have to go but uh ray i would like to stay in touch with you uh are you on matter most can you okay can you uh yeah i can invite you ray and or just give just give me your email or i can give you mine i just like to follow up my main means of intellectual exchanges facebook actually uh i mean a lot of groups there okay well i i don't use it except under under duress but ray at all fed that info hi eric i i guess it was you that got me into this yes i did what happened actually because it's it's a quarter it's just i yeah it's the data it's savings time thing no they they had to end early at a half hour um but we stayed on because uh ray asked me about the precautionary principle and we started uh and i stuck around because i said oh this is going to be good okay nice to see you eric um i wasn't meeting with everybody it was shorter but yeah um i mean the ogm meeting how was it oh it was great it was good but with the usual the usual constraints of fascinating question gets raised interesting points get made 10 other interesting points oops squeeze don't have next okay you know okay let's not divert too much there and bring it back to something else yeah exactly like that unfortunately i do have to go ray is it is it all friend or all fed what was that all fed info a l l f e d dot info yes okay great um i'll that and that's an email so right yeah so i'll send you an email with my email and i only have a few more questions about the effective altruism work and i mean yeah but also it's i really like the uh oxford center for effective altruism yeah i i read the basic stuff that comes from there and and that's good that's a good start uh i'll ask a secondary question maybe and i'll share what i'm doing and you know and so on but i really like the the uh harder and wisdom that you bring to your comments thank you well i tried to become more pragmatic over time yes yes well we don't have infinite time left so that's that it's very practical to get more practical as as the time goes out certainly if you deal with brisk management exactly exactly the precautionary principle about death okay yep good to see you all continue if you like and i'll see you in a future uh future event right john see you later bye bye i did put some alternatives to the precautionary principle in the chat i don't know if you saw that um man is that the zoom chat that we still have here yes let me take a look and i don't know if you want alternatives to the precautionary principle um was it tipping points in full oh never mind duty of care preparedness and resilience work early warning drr and response planning the first things that occurred to me in general you know vulnerability analysis and but vulnerability analysis is i think the most promising area because you can't predict reliably what's going to happen but you can do a robust assessment of vulnerabilities and loss of function right and so for somewhere like the uk where we can lose ports so in terms of something like um like ai or um would vulnerability um analysis be a good tool to be able to use to determine like what sort of legislation and um like limitations should put on tech development or would that be more towards like specific strategy for a context a situation a uh yeah so ai is uh is a special case firstly it's an imaginary it's partly real and already with us and partly an imagined negative future which again is unlimited in the total number of imagined negative futures um so i mean i think the realistic problem with ai is with existing in combination with existing weaponry and nukes the usual risks which are already a risk even without ai i think it's an ownership um depending on yeah ownership of that technology and the the lock-in of the kind of like intellectual property plus the resources i'm asking that i'm not i'm not really an ai safety expert there are people at at cscr and fhi in oxford and cambridge and the berkeley's existential risk people so there's i'm i'm happy there's quite a lot of work now on ai risk yeah um i'll feel a little bit like the millenium bug you know it might be a problem and lots of people more people are working on it now whereas nuclear risk between india pakistan could easily happen in the next two years it's funny i agree with you i guess on like a very gut level i feel like there's nothing i can do about nuclear so i don't even think about it i don't know i think there's i think there's a lot more we can do about i mean first we can i mean the most robust thing of all is that we can be sure that we can recover from it so recover the food the food system which would be affected because of atmospheric effects like a volcano but hasn't there always been like nuclear threat before and it's always been this kind of oh yeah my because it's around a long time doesn't mean that it's gone away or we don't should stop work just like the pandemic was always there well the biggest arsenal for sure is in the us so it's gonna be all out we all out risk is obviously worse still with us and russia but there's a lot more ways that a regional problem could accident or conflict or fake incident could happen that there's a lot more roots that a regional nuclear conflict could happen so the risk of that is considered much higher especially india pakistan but you know israel as well middle east yeah a dirty problem is considered a higher risk you know that's not a nuclear fission event it's a spread of radioactivity right but how did it come up actually vinton mentioned precautionary principle i think he he thinks technology is always going to produce more problems than it solves and i was challenging that yeah i think um depending on the technology on a case by case basis um if you put a group of interdisciplinary systems thinkers in a room you could probably evaluate with pretty good accuracy whether or not it's going to be more likely to have negative more negative consequences than positive um like for example the tv when the tv wasn't invented by the entire design of it being a one-way medium you could kind of predict the sort of impacts it will have on culture and society it's something because there's there's like constraints and limitations in terms of where it can develop i think all of your answers are going to depend on how you define negative and positive in the first place agreed um if you're if you use as a sort of naturalistic rural idyll then of course you hate all of technology if you if you want i'm not alone and i have a degree in engineering so i think your good bad dichotomy is is questionable i mean the simplest one is probably life expectancy and there it's going to be a mixed picture for a while yeah i think my medics are life expectancy um like sustainability um like on a planetary scale but also like just the environment's quality locally as well um inequality in terms of like income and the other the other thing you might be forgetting is the deep time perspective so on a million-year time scale then we're in trouble you know the sun will get hotter and and we'll have to move to mars somewhere so on that basis the faster we develop all our technologies the better because they would give us some hope of terraforming mars yeah but i mean ai is something you the issue i think with ai is that we don't really understand how it works we created but then we don't really understand the the most like the most interesting way with the most interesting ai safety work that i've heard is is they basically explain the problem is when you it's like with frankenstein and the golem if you don't understand what you're telling the machine to do um it's bound to do something completely stupid because you didn't even understand the the the task you were asking it to complete so so therefore ai should be good at second guessing what we ask it to do so that it doesn't end the world or end all life or da da da da so so actually teaching ai is not to take humans too literally could be an important safety thing you know go and kill a husky whatever it takes is exactly the wrong instruction if the machine interprets it has killed everybody if that's what it takes yeah i think i i'm less worried about robots like killing us because of some like weird wiring and and programming i'm more concerned honestly about the like inequality that will come if a very small percentage of the population is able to own the technology that produces most of the kind of like basic necessities and their library but we are already what we have labor still is still has a chance to have some power now whereas it might not in five to ten years once amazon figures out how you can see the curve you know in the past it was always big wars that flattened the economic playing field and gave people a fresh start but now there's nothing you know we don't have those kinds of wars anymore and and the rich can just keep getting richer indefinitely unless you decommodify the things that are necessities to be owned more cooperatively and that includes the automation technology but how do you get there that's back to my original challenge which is what's the tractability of it i think the tractability is using the kind of current leverage points in the example of land against the system to be able to shift so for example let's right now you have a situation in the us where land ownership is very much concentrated and so if you could have people pull their resources create this is just like one example of one method if you have groups of people and groups of a hundred pull together their resources start a company take out a loan collectively but i noticed an if in there what's the what's the how of getting it started it's already starting like a sort of cooperative groups yeah yeah like cooperative land trusts and cooperative land ownership mostly in the in europe right now in the uk and spain so people are basically buying the land that they are being rented for three grand a month and instead they're owning it and renting it back to themselves below market value and thieving two times on their rent they also have ownership collectively over the land so they're they have incentive to be able to treat it better um in the long term if they are going to be raising their kids there and on top of that it is something that is doable within the current market system yeah okay good that's that's one idea it's nice but uh i'm looking for something more scalable i think what is scalable really scalable implementation science it's it's something that i know what scalable means but i i'm i'm wondering why it wouldn't be scalable so what i notice is that the big changes come in a crisis um a crisis is a big driver of change you have to right so we've seen governments pull out an awful lot during the credit crunch and during the pandemic because they had to you know the amounts of money that they've suddenly discovered that they can spend is astonishing you know when before you couldn't afford to increase child care slightly and suddenly there's all this money oh that's interesting so where was all that money before well it was waiting yeah was waiting for a crisis so it's i think a lot of what makes change happen is being ready with the solutions when they're needed in a crisis which is pretty much how we set up all fed we're assuming that at some point there will be a a crisis affecting the food system so we're trying to put in place engineering solutions that that stop millions of from starving and that's a one-time only deal i hope you know i don't think you could keep doing that because eventually you get a degraded diet and but hopefully through that crisis we will see that the world needs better governance so more fundamental issues like you guys discussed here i think the covid crisis did start the laying the foundation work of the like the relationships to be able to actually do that at scale for example the rise of mutual aid groups which was one example of cooperative forms of governance outside of the current systems for mutual aid groups sure sure that like for example the relation like i'm part of a mutual aid group on long island so it's a network of about 50 nonprofit groups and basically we've been doing food deliveries and doing a lot of work with also policy and advocacy in kind of like using our collective power to also get legislation passed but we are kind of forming the entity in a way that for the next crisis we are ready and have the more resilient relationships to be able to implement the ideas that we have laying around faster than the government was able to implement anything when covid hit the same thing with sandy when sandy hit here it's yeah it's typical like shock doctrine like whatever kind of is laying around gets passed we might be interested in talking to you about food deficit scenarios and what you could do to effectively manufacture your own food in emergency have you got any industry in long island um so i actually am in the food industry myself um i had a meeting with wake fern which is the buyer for the shop right supermarkets in the u.s but it got cancer it got moved to next week so that's why we're here or else i would be pitching uh my family actually my family in italy makes uh like gluten-free organic pasta um interestingly i'm more interested in the card do you have a factory that makes the packaging on one island um we don't have no we don't the packaging we outsource the packaging um paper in italy also have some local facilities where we pack here so depending on what you want i might know someone um and i also pay a paper factory can can handle solids and liquids so you can say illusically digest almost anything that's made of carbon and and then you can produce sugars so in an emergency you've got a source of and it's a non food source so you're not taking existing food and and changing it into food you're taking non-food items and making them into food so that would be one of the emergency things but the retrofit would take without preparation would take five to six months so we'd like to reduce that so that it would be useful in an emergency is that the is that the focus of all fed is kind of like that that kind of thing how do you how do you improvise food in a crisis so that i i i have to appreciate here that this conversation is the way it's going was it's impossible to predict it completely if i always bring it around you bring all the subjects and then the way you tackle it it's completely like wow that came from yeah yeah like a fundamentally better world this is like a holding action but the part of it which is good is that you know it works even better if countries cooperate so if it's if it adds to that general feeling of we get through it all together or we all die then great maybe that would be a slightly transformative aspect yeah i wondering what your thoughts are on the kind of like aquaponics hydroponic very very expensive and it produces quite small quantities and at very high cost so you know very that's a very specialized kind of nasa end of things yeah what we're looking for is that the cheap stuff that you can you know quickly retrofit what you've already got or methane protein back you know cyanotic bacteria things things like that there are good reasons for doing it now because you don't have to cut down the amazon to produce soya to make beef burger yeah i'm italian so i like my zucchini and eggplant yeah that's great um well i mean greenhouses could would have some value especially on the vitamin vegetable end of things yeah i just met um the founder of have you heard of my girlbot um i'll send the link it's a pretty cool um apparently they are able to grow with these like small units it's either indoor or outdoor um a salad a day which is very interesting um because it's pretty fast um and i think they're like under two hundred dollars um upfront cost and then it produces a salad a day and you could put it outside and have it run with no like electricity um or you can have it indoor under a pro light obviously yeah yeah well so we that's the kind of Rolls Royce and and we're we're down at the um Volkswagen and i think or the bicycle yeah cool well you never know if that technology would hold something or not the second maybe there's a principle in the technology that you could use on a cheaper scale well so yeah we're looking at polytunnels and uh low-cost greenhouse ramp up for cold shocks so that's volcanic or nuclear scenarios yeah yeah okay i think i'm done for now um so cheers be funny i was i was wondering if uh if you would be there on there because i saw in my agenda i added really and then i see four people one of them being you it's really funny because it's like uh i was expecting only you and there were all these other people so yeah okay see you later right sorry oh so you know how do you know ray um he's i know him from nonviolent communication he's been in festivals and he runs a lot of facebook groups on mvc that's going to support groups it's kind of a quite a good um he's not your run-in-the-mill community manager but he does it for a long time already and he has running groups so it's working actually he's he's a he's got a mind that's very associative and um but it's uh yeah and he's he's also someone who really thinks further away than the general person like mvc people can be very ideological and stick to their methods it is also one of those guys that thinks more systemically and then i started talking to him more some a few times when there was a crisis in one of those groups or just for interest sake yeah cool yeah he seems like a cool guy yeah i think we're recording um and i don't know if this room is available but i can chat for a bit if you want uh yeah i don't know if can we stop the recording i don't know actually no probably uh is anyone host anymore i have an idea um i can also set up another room but yeah okay that's oh i can uh no i i can unless i have a key so i think we should probably just stop the recording um if you want to hop back in a zoom room if you want to chat for a bit send me a link yeah listen i i'll um i'll uh give you a link in what in telegram great okay see you soon