of set those priorities So everything that the IDN has done has ultimately come from, you know, very considered Consultation over a very prolific period of time. We're talking over the space of a decade, right? And so I think like, you know, thus far into this project and where we are currently at We've not experienced like, you know, I guess any sort of kickback or that because ultimately we're not determining that, right? So what we're actually doing is asking what is the priority? So it is very explorative and I think in that space, um, it's very I think it's a really kind space. So what we're being met with Is not just really good reciprocity from community particularly key people of interest and elders and Any of those stakeholders Yeah, it's it's actually quite the opposite We're hoping we can't actually Keep up with the demand of any engagement from people, which is good, right? It's a really good. It's a really good problem to have so Hello, thank you very much for your presentation. Um, I had a question you talked about One of your projects wanted to implement indigenous data governance I was wondering how does that look in practice or Is is the work you're doing trying to understand what it means? Oh, yeah, how would you? Yeah, that is a fair question. Um, Yeah, wouldn't we all like to know but I guess that's it. So one of the things is understanding that, right? And I guess it's been mentioned throughout the last two days Just how incredibly nuanced but also very idiosyncratic, right? Would like to reiterate the point that uncle gran made it's just like every single Aboriginal community might have Reoccurring themes reoccurring like priorities and whatnot But ultimately each of those communities what happens and occurs in there those events are distinctly theirs And I guess the solutions and the way that they Have not not not only done governance for millennia, but how they envision doing governance into the future is Yet to be determined and to be understood so super explorative And I guess also the next presentation will be talking a little bit about how they have created some tooling around the care principles that I'm sure everyone will be quite interested in so Coming up next From the google united nation governance principles that would Be something too that you would apply Um, and I think from memory the consensus I already had to Participate or even making sure that minority voices in the context of a group of Aboriginal people so that all the voices are heard And the other thing is that the complex like in a in a western project Management Context they talk about scope time quality cost Risk as an example and then the the concept of Aboriginal time versus western time and all that sort of stuff the same things Have got to apply when you apply western governance into a trauma Traumatized space that sort of stuff, which is what you're across anyway But you're across it, but the others do have to do it as well Thank you very much.  I'll just give you a bit of a rundown Silcott member of the idn technical reference group experienced talented practical ict professional Supported the development of major idn projects indigenous research capability funded by ardc Sandra brings experience identifying users needs in the context of implementing Agreed solutions and empowering colleagues Employee skillset including systems administration database development And data conversation or large research projects including arc founders and survivors project Dr. Len smith Harrison Ford writers of the lost ark What was the other one you were in the The spice one Star Wars Now dr. Len smith lead lead of the idn technical reference group is nationally and internationally renowned demographer With an extensive background of research focusing on Aboriginal torsion on the people dr. Smith was able to reconstitute the Aboriginal population that Was not recorded in the protection board records and demonstrate how the victorian Aboriginal community recovered to reach its current strength Of over 30 000 people who identified the last Commonwealth census Dr. Smith is also a member of the idn steering committee Now dr. Nicola's car, that's you There's a car You can say that that that works in English Yeah, but what is it? Well, like many people here, it's comes from a different corporate background. So yeah Nicholas that's better Couple of days that's some rather Nicholas is internationally recognized as a thought leader and expert in data architecture data systems design link data semantics semantics Technologies design was designed lead nationally significant innovative link data And semantic web projects including location index logitudes Trudinal spine or government functions Also outstanding academic achievements including phd engineering from university of melbourne bachelor of engineering honors for university of sydney Active as standards editor w3c's data but data set exchange working group and open geo geospatial consortiums geospatial working group and i'll leave it at that Okay Thanks Grant. I'll do a quick introduction Well, I'd like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land on which we meet and The lands on which people are Coming into us from remote relocations Uh, and also acknowledge the traditional owners of all the unseated land around this nation And acknowledge the fact that we see solutions to that lack of seating through the process of treaty voice and truth telling Which we hope is uh, certainly be embarked on like also to uh, convey apologies from our colleague and Leader sam provost who's had to go home for sad family reasons Uh, we'll try to fill in the gap that he left So, uh, nick, I think we'll pass it over to you to start talking about our technical stuff Hi everyone and apparently 20 minutes ago all the state and territory Ministers uh, chief ministers and the prime minister signed on to an in statement intent about the voice. So Things are moving there So this is about the streams two and three as as mentioned in the previous talk Everything we do is suffused with issues to do with governance and engagement But luckily day to day That's not what we're doing here. Uh, we are dependent on Relations to community and so on From the wider idn but day to day We're doing the technical work of implementing systems and models and things like that But I hope throughout the presentation to indicate where the governance stuff comes in and the relations come in And I'll pass to Len and Sandra to get me out of hot water every now and then Okay, so very briefly Um, we're going to overview our technical approach And in fact, it occurs to us looking at our slides that we're going to do a less technical presentation than some of the other ones You've seen in the last couple of days. So that's good um We're going to talk about our data integration framework concepts very briefly Um, and then we're going to go through the actual progress report of where this part of the indigenous data network work is up to So that's the indigenous data catalog project progress We're going to talk very briefly about sam's an uk study and we're going to quickly mention at least some of our plans for the future Now, uh part of the work that we're doing is about Putting more of our information in more accessible and um and readable forms Um, so a lot of the stuff that's presented here today in our work will end up on the indigenous data catalog project website And what we're aiming for there is to present not the stuff that we've done sort of, you know, we did ab and c but more You know, you may have heard of us from and this is what you might be interested kind of think things that we expect and hope people will ask as questions and then The way we answer that will be sort of, you know, indifferent sometimes they'll say how do we how do I make a catalog for my Often indigenous data. We might have a thing about that but we're going to try and work out the big questions that Um that people have of us And then sort of place those in there. It's very hard to read on there But you know finding indigenous data characterizing indigenous data, etc, etc They're not quite ready yet, but should be soon Okay, so the overall technical approach and I think I Now Jenny, um, I think we might have dropped a slide in there somewhere. There's something missing, but anyway, we'll survive Is it is this is not this is an online one. Anyway, anyway, we'll we'll survive Okay So one thing that we're doing a general approach that applies to both the cataloging component that we're working on and the handling orphaned data is to make implicit knowledge explicit So imagine you've got a table of information Um, you know, it could be statistics or who knows what? Sometimes you have implicit information needed to understand that table of data And part of the mechanisms that we use and the style of data that we handle Calls out those relations. So in that first row, there's three cells there and there's relations between them And we're actually describing those in a particular way in a technical way But we're taking implicit researcher and hopefully indigenous knowledge and making it explicit That's part of the preservation process of that information and it makes it On the surface easier to understand We're directly reusing defined concepts and this is where I'm happy that Steve and others have done a technical presentation before us Steve talked about vocabularies and those sorts of things. So where those exist. We're employing those They don't exist for everything. So we have to define some things that are of interest to us that don't have Definitions elsewhere and this comes down to roles and responsibilities Information from the indigenous community that hasn't yet been represented in forms that machines can read and so on. That's part of what we're doing Okay, and the last point here is that yes We are cataloging things and we're calculating things. We are actually giving The the score of certain things ago. We're trying to score things We're trying to implement fair and care scores. Are we going to get it right? Eventually, obviously not straight away. This is difficult stuff We'll give it a go and we'll see how we go. But without metrics government really doesn't respond very nicely. So we do sometimes have to calculate these things Okay, now our general Data integration framework looks a bit like this We may have a block of indigenous census data and we can do the sorts of Things that best practice would have you do regarding that data defining the questions defining the metrics and so on But for wider integration It's very important that we define the reference data around that and again as steve mentioned in the previous presentation Use reference data that other people have access to like vocabaries models, etc So that we can join our data to other people's data. How does this occur? well the places that we use and and Kristen mentioned that one of our charges is to develop Places of importance and utility to indigenous data And if we had our data referenced against such places We might be able to spatially integrate those places with non indigenous data Such as Australian statistical geographies natural resource areas, etc. So this is a well known Type of thing But just going back a slide actually we're not just talking about the places We're talking about the methods that are used the observed properties the agents That's people and organizations a whole range of different parts of the data that we want to Set up as reference data sets to allow us to join our data to other data So here's another one The observed properties the stuff that we're actually all the dimensions as statisticians would have them the dimensions that we're using They might be custom in our domain. They might be you know Something to do with indigenous identity which isn't present in normal census data or isn't present in non indigenous Um statistics, but we want um the the dimensions of our data to be available for reuse And also we want to join where we do have data in common with non indigenous stuff We want we want to join on those points And then finally what does this let us do well it allows us to join our data through reference data sets Which may be vocabaries, but they might be very big complex things like enormous databases of spatial information Um, we can join our data to other data Okay, so that was the kind of conceptual sort of where we're at now specific um progress in the cataloging project that we're involved in i'm going to talk very briefly about the The catalog standard profile that we've been implementing some vocabaries an agents database that we're building reference spatial data sets scoring and then Not number six. I've talked a little bit about number six already Okay, now i'm not expecting you all to be able to read and take in all of that But what that picture is showing is that in our catalog profile and what we mean by that is there are Standard mechanisms to catalog data out there and we have specialized one of those mechanisms to specially cater for Indigenous concerns, which i'll get to in a minute But in doing this we haven't just written down A standard or a variant of a standard We've provided a whole pile of resources to help people use our specialized version of this including things like mappings from our system to Schema.org which can be used with ro crates mappings from what we're doing to the commonwealth's 26 data elements that they want to collect and things like that So there's a whole pile of resources some of those resources are definitional some of them are guides Some of them are software tools, but they all together make a bundle of tooling and bits and pieces which help you with This catalog profile and the profile is used to characterize data out there If you've got a data set and it's indigenous and you want to characterize that indigenousness This is our proposal to do that using mostly a normal cataloging model but with extensions This model has a formal backing. It's not just a loosely defined thing in a word document Take note prime minister in cabinet This is in fact a formal model that we've mostly inherited from other standards and then slightly extended Again, you don't really need to see the details But what you're seeing there is a formal diagram and all of the documents and tooling and everything that we've provided as part of our Profile is derived from this formal model and the formal model has calculable ends So we can we can use that model to and test whether certain Data according to that model will or won't answer certain questions some of the tooling that's part of the profile is a Well, one of the tools is a metadata creation tool So there are lots of tools to create the metadata we've seen describer and others for ro creates information This tool is tuned to create metadata for The representation of indigenousness or indigeneity now We don't expect people to sit around all day and using this tool We're not asking people out there if you've got 10,000 data sets to type them all through this tool But the tool is there to check Uh, if I do have a data set and I put the information here, what does that look like? What scores do I get for that? It's a testing tool it tests the model and it is there for the creation of new metadata If that's what you want to do, but in most cases what we're hoping to do is to find data that's already already described and to Interpret that description in in the in the form of our profile But nevertheless, there is a tool that's online and you can have a go with that tool Now behind that tool and behind our integrated data generally are a series of vocabularies As steve has mentioned you need these vocabularies to be certain about values that you're applying to things Some of the the the the the vocabularies are what you'd expect, you know The Indigeneity of data and by the way, we haven't made most of these up We've mostly taken them from from literature and elsewhere But you know the way in which data is indigenous for instance That is a a vocabulary that exists in literature We've pinched that but there are some surprising ones in there things like The roles of catalogs with respect to data. This is not an indigenous concern. This is a universal concern I've got a thing it's in a catalog. What is the role of that catalog with respect to this? Is it the first paid places was ever published? Is it a harvested version? Is it the primary etc? Those are normal cataloging concerns which This project has brought to the fore and we are Trying to solve those problems those representation issues and hope to push that information back from the data network to non-indigenous cataloging systems So that is a benefit that non-indigenous people will get from this indigenous work And that's because there are certain issues to do with Authority and governance that we can't answer about data unless we know where it was first cataloged and when and For the indigenous purposes that that the systems required, but it does also solve non-indigenous issues Another major part of our Cataloging project that we didn't fully anticipate when we started but we do now is the The need to have a listing of agents. So these are people and organizations that have a role with respect to data indigenous data We need a collection and a list of those agents With notes from the indigenous community on them as to What exactly those agents are doing? So I'll give you an example The Australian Bureau of Statistics To our way of characterization that is a data holder. It holds indigenous data. It's a non-indigenous led organization I think that's pretty uncontroversial and And so that's in our database now certain community indigenous groups They may hold data They would have a very different kind of role with respect to data, especially their own data than the abs would So we want to characterize. We don't want to characterize We want to provide the facility For communities to characterize the roles that organizations and people play with respect to data And a note that I just took down from the last set of questions that were asked Especially for group decision making if there is a something there a piece of data that needs to Have a group make decisions about what you can do with it We need to be able to characterize that group. So we need to be able to say, you know Who's in the group what they can actually decide, etc So what you see there is a internal database tool that we're working on now That allow us to list organizations that have a role with respect to data and people And to store certain facts about them Now we're providing the framework and the tool but the the the people who actually decide what roles these organizations play With respect to particular data, that's the indigenous community So we're providing the tool and the framework the slot and then that slot needs to be filled now we can Fill in some of those slots. I'll just mention the abs But when it comes to controversial ones, for instance are such and such people the right Group to make decisions about this kind of data that kind of thing We can't directly fill that in we need communities to do that In fact, even the roles that communities could play need to be determined And that's part of the stream work one that's going on stream stream one work Now just one thing again, this is going to be very difficult to see But behind everything that we do we're making implicit data explicit So this database looks like an ordinary database. It operates like an ordinary database Secretly behind the scenes actually not at all secretly very visibly behind the scenes all the information that's in there Can be extracted in a system independent way so that if we get sick of the database we lose funding whatever All that information all the relationships and information are preserved We hope not to have a situation with the on that was talked about yesterday where if the funding ends You have a huge job trying to extract data data extraction out of this should be very easy Even if the tool goes away Another part of the work that we're doing is to do with reference spatial datasets you've seen on that Cube that I showed before we've got Spatial and methodological and other potential integration points in our project We're characterizing several important spatial datasets and there's a list of a few of them there Um, you'll see that some of these already exist things like the indigenous structures within the asgs that that already exists And we're re-representing it here and enhancing it in certain ways We're only going to do a few of these in this project one more than on that list, which you'll see in a second and um It's to show methodology. How do you characterize spatial information? In a way that can be used with the other data that our projects are working with and in a way that's indigenously sensitive That's what we're trying to do. So we're not trying to characterize all the data that's spatial data. That's useful. Just some of it the spatial data is aligned with What we think of as best practice spatial data elsewhere such as Data at the ABS and elsewhere And we can use fairly sophisticated slicing and dicing tooling to cut through data that references the spatial data like we saw yesterday with the indigenous or sorry the historical place names gazettea We can slice on spatial axes and other things And what you see there is a picture of a similar sort of data set that we're working on but with biodiversity data And in time we may be able to may be able to intersect that data and indigenous data quite effectively Because we're using similar structures for cabarets and things behind the scenes The important data set that we haven't yet characterized, but we'll get to Is the Aboriginal census police districts. This is lens work. Um, the reason it's important apart from its directly obviously importance feel is that Characterizing that data set is forcing us to do certain things which are not normally done with spatial data And i'll just give one example Fuzzy geometries a lot of data out there like postcodes and so on you've got a polygon And it's a very defined polygon and it's defined because it is defined someone can say this is where it is There's no ambiguity a lot of indigenous spatial data is not so cut and dry. Um, we have to have ambiguity and so we're working on the technical underpinnings of representing fuzzy geometries and so on again as i mentioned previously About catalog roles. This is a universal issue. There are lots of communities nothing to do with indigenous that have a requirement for fuzzy geometries Yet it turns out a lot of the standards don't actually Standardize this stuff So this project is forcing that we can't really operate without fuzzy geometries in certain circumstances We can't for instance characterize police districts where one side of the district is well known It follows a river and then the other side is you know off into the wherever that's not well characterized We we have to have a a system that can handle that to make sense of our own data and in doing that We're coming up with I guess new approaches which are useful elsewhere So in this case here, this is my approximation drawn badly in google maps But this is my approximation of southeast queens land and you can see in the the small little polygon there I'm very certain that that southeast queens land I'm pretty certain that the next bigger polygon is also southeast queens land And i'm a little bit certain that the bigger polygon is also southeast queens land. So this is My confidence in showing someone where southeast queens land is you can see at the bottom there I'm very confident that southeast queens land ends at the new south wales border So that's a very sharp bit But out towards the west i don't actually know where southeast queens land ends towards the north and the west It ends somewhere there, but I don't really know So this is the kind of thing that we hope to model and again feedback to non indigenous projects They can thank us for that later Now we do have to Because of the terms of our kind of project Calculate scores for things and the reason for this is that part of our remit is to make an assessment of how well governed data sets are How well indigenously governed data sets in existing systems are And we can only do that because there's lots of them We can't just go through individually and make an individual human assessment of that We have to do some kind of systematic assessment Which then may lead on to individual data set assessments But we have to come up with you know the basic question of all the data that's in trove What proportion of that is has anything to do with indigenous people? Sandra, would you like to say anything about trove? Thanks, Nick. Yeah, one of the inactivity 2.1 Which was you might recall was scoping of indigenous data sets. We decided to have a Look in trove and use the trove api to discover indigenous and Torres Strait Islander data sets that we Thought would hit the mark we found between two and three thousand That just eyeballing seemed to meet the mark Some of which I'm happy to report Showed exemplary data governance practices Credit to Nick T burger who's been in this game doing that parody sec was one of You know clearly really well described and pointing off to Good landing pages that explained the data and explained What it was about who is about and how it could be accessed Um Other custodians Not so not so good results. Um A lot of uh metadata pointing to other metadata and not taking you anywhere Um But it was a really worthwhile exercise in terms of um engaging with the national library I think we will need to be doing that work again um exploiting uh using Auslan codes um Iatsis have been using trove as a dissemination mechanism. So there's a lot of Data there that we can Pick up and and use to sort of characterizing in bowl can pick up things and so on so It was a really useful exercise in seeing A very spotty inconsistent Data management landscape let alone um Indigenous data management landscape. So I'll just leave it at that So it's actually from that Work that sandra did that directly led to this requirement to characterize the role which catalogs play with respect to the data in them Because as she mentioned there are a lot of stuff in trove that is actually It's actually catalog somewhere else first and then trove has recataloged it and we need more finesse there Now the three scores that we've started with To characterize data to ultimately get to indigenous data governance kind of assessments are Two of them at least are pretty well known So the fair scores and there's a green tick there because fair scores are well known There are tools that do calculate fair scores already and we're just reinventing that and we're really using that as a as a as a training and um and uh, I guess, um Comparison point for the other scores which are more important to us. We're not too fussed about fair It's nice to have maybe but as mentioned yesterday not always applicable to the kind of data We're after but nevertheless the mechanisms used to do a fair score are relevant mechanisms for other scores So a big tick on fair. It's not that hard care scores Now we have a proposed methodology to calculate a care score for something This is not something that's been done before care are a set of principles They're not usually calculated. They might be self-assessed, but they're not usually calculated from the outside as far as we know This hasn't been done. It's going to be rough. We're going to get pretty rough care scores and we look to Engagement and community over time to get better care scores, but nevertheless, we will have a go at that Now the last score there that's our most important one is the idg indigenous data governance score It's pretty imaginative title. It's not quite as sexy as care and fair and everything else But it is the direct our direct assessment of how well governed a piece of a data set Let's say is from an indigenous perspective In fact, it's not even from an indigenous perspective. It's how well governed a data set is Compared to how it should be and indigenous is part of that. So I'm going to talk about that in a second Here it is Indigenous data governance. So the first question we ask about a data set is is it indigenous at all? If it's not indigenous, it could get a very good indigenous data governance score Because it doesn't need to have indigenous involvement. It doesn't sounds fine to me If it is indigenous, then we have to ask the second question, which also seems to have the number one But if so, does it have appropriate relations to appropriate agents? And you'll remember that I talked a few minutes ago about the agents database that we have that's going to characterize the agents that we know about so organizations and people And they're essentially their ability to provide indigenous governance So that database is our set of agents and we now have to work out Whether the data we're looking at has appropriate relations to appropriate agents So firstly, is the data indigenous? Well, as Sandra mentioned from Trove, we can Find data that's declared to be indigenous by looking at things like keywords language tags Is it in a collection that's an indigenous collection? So Trove has that Lots of catalogs have that they say this is all indigenous data. They put it in there. So that's a very easy one We have to find all the different ways things could be declared, but nevertheless, that's a finite thing It's not particularly difficult. The hard one is whether we can infer data to be indigenous And to do this, this is an open-ended thing that's going to be solved In better and better ways over time, but we're not going to solve it in this project But we can look at things like the text that's used the language and so on and and work out Whether the data is indigenous or about indigenous things and this is a massive area of computer science work There's enormous amounts of data classification and so on going on around the world And we hope that our framework that we're working with here permits Increased skill in that area. So we're not trying to do automated assessment of content to work out whether it's indigenous But we certainly do want to have that slot available I put the little acronym machine learning in there. Yes, we can look at text We might look at metadata text like descriptions and abstracts But in time people can look at content and make assessments as to you know The way in which this data is or what what it's talking about how to characterize it and some of that can be indigenous assessment So taken for granted that data is indigenous in a particular case We then ask Does it have appropriate relations to appropriate agents and what we're looking at here as you can see the little picture There's a data set It's indigenous in some way Does it have this relation and the relation it could have many relations But does the relation Join this data set to a particular agent with a particular role and it's the agents and roles We've got the database for and vocabaries And here's an example rather than boring you with the vocabaries. Here's an example of the indigenous locations within the australian statistical geography standard now the Way this data was put online About a year and a half ago Didn't indicate any indigenous engagement in the data. So it did in a discursive text But it didn't in the machine readable metadata that a machine would find and be able to automatically assess So all we've done is taken the written description Of the way in which this data is managed and governed by the abs and place that into machine readable form in the mechanism I've just described now whether that is appropriate or not is not for us to judge that is for community to judge But to represent what the abs is saying about the data is our task So what the abs tells us is that and you can see there's a so-called qualified attribution thing there There's other metadata too But there's qualified attribution and it says that this data set the the rights holder is the abs You could dispute that you might think that's not appropriate, but that's what they say it is The um custodian is also the abs But the special one that's interesting here is the subject agent representative So that is a group or a body that represents Who or what this data is about and their interests So indigenous locations are obviously something of importance to indigenous people And so their representative in this case is this co-access group at the abs So that is a consultative body within the abs now again We can't or I certainly can't judge whether co-access is any good or not That's not for me to make a call on but I can record that that's what the abs have said Or that who the abs have said is their group and then people can look at that and make their own judgment as to whether that's appropriate So the the indigenous data governance score here will hinge on whether That group which we can see has a relation to the data is appropriate for this data And superficially we assume that it's perfectly appropriate And then we leave it up to people to to judge whether that is in fact the case or not But what we've done is we've represented that relation and other relations to as I say rights holder, etc So that's the core of our indigenous data governance scores It's the distance between what we think data should have Based on the facts of its indigenousness and so on versus the declared relationships that we can discover about that And so if the relationship is not declared we give it a zero score if this data had no Subject agent representative at all not even a declared one Then it would have a lesser score than if it had at least some Now a small case study Sam who sadly again can't be here He is working on a an indigenous data catalogue within the australian national university and these are the points from his project plan It's to develop a machine readable indigenous data catalogue for anu They just simply don't have a centralized or comprehensive or even very good Listing of indigenous data anywhere as far as we can tell Sam's had to work through proxies like ethics approvals and projects and all kinds of things to try and discover Where and what might be indigenous data within the university He needs to create a keeping place for that orphaned and legacy data that's within the anu And then the last two points they're building indigenous capacity within again the anu and providing indigenous governance data governance and sovereignty principles Now the two things that we're doing in this project to directly assist with that one is that Using the catalogue profile and some other tooling that was mentioned yesterday the way to bundle up data We're supplying I guess a copy or an instance of that to sam to actually create an actual technical catalogue and put things in And we've only just started on the advice side and the capacity building side That's part and parcel of the larger indigenous data network as mentioned in the previous talk But both of these things will impact on his work Oh, and I'll just mention lastly we will we do expect to have an instance of a catalogue That is at least initially only available within the anu But that all elements and the way the stuff in that catalogue is presented and described will be the same as The way we do assessments of public data so that if you get hold of an internal record for whatever reason You'll see things like the subject agent representative role and standardized metadata So even though that data is not public it should be described in a similar way to public data and to standardized data So that you don't have to go and do research to work out what the hell they're talking about Last couple of slides. So we've got plans for the future in two chunks The first set are for the next 12 months and then there's beyond the next 12 months This is partly a reflection on funding cycles and things. I think it's obvious In the next 12 months, what do we have to do? We have to Continue to operate The reference resources that we've made so we have now that we've established an agents database If we can in the next few months before june show that it has value and purpose We'll need to continue to continue to operate that we can't stop operating these kinds of things if they reference data sets That's very important. That's our number one thing things established must continue to live on And we don't the best we can to make it cheap and easy to operate that but nevertheless that has to continue We have to keep testing our tools if we start doing things like creating scores. We have to actually You know put those scores to people and get feedback and And work on that and and even at a small rate, even if we're in a kind of a caretaker mode We still have to be able to do it to some extent. We have to say yes We've heard your feedback We've recorded and we either can do something about it now or plan to in the future We do want to get organizations to adopt our catalog profile and that slide I showed before about the abs stuff That is that is adopted in the sense that Our catalog profile is being used to represent information from the abs on an abs managed resource And we want to roll that catalog profile out to other data holders And this should be a fairly straightforward job for all the catalogs I've ever worked with including geoscience australia data.gov.au These kinds of catalogs should be able to adopt this profile pretty easily We also hope to work through that deputy secretary's data group and elsewhere So that when organizations that are doing a renewed catalog Effort somewhere inevitably ask the question. How should we catalog indigenous stuff? They look to our catalog profile as the suggestion is to how to do that We will in the next 12 months work on other deployments of catalog instances And that's in particular an you but there could be others And that's because we can make a mini one and put it over there and it might be hidden But it still uses our reference resources And we want to form up the indigenous data networks advisory role We know we have this role has been asked of us, but we haven't really formed that up We haven't taken questions and provided advice in a formulaic manner Beyond the next 12 months We will eventually not just in the indigenous network But overall need to come to an arrangement to do with a digital keeping place for indigenous data I think that's obvious what that arrangement is. Is it that everything comes into A special repository that I run on my system at home? Probably not Is it a distributed thing that is Horses for courses in terms of where you might put indigenous data But there are kind of standardized ways of representing that data. That's probably more likely Does it involve a renewed arrangement with organizations due to the voice? Maybe we don't know but we do need to come up with something there and that needs to be stated It's it's in our current indigenous data network Directions and we need to Keep doing that in the next you know after 12 months We do have a an item to do digital repatriation or rematriation as it's sometimes called We do need to as Kristen and Levi mentioned find data That indigenous people do not have access to and and and either give them access to it and or return it to them So that's that's part of the indigenous data networks goals And our cataloging and so on has a role in that because if we can characterize things we can work out What is appropriate to do with it to some extent We need to develop that advisory role that we've claimed with others to other organizations We're not the only indigenous Data organization in the country and we need to work out exactly who does what we're effectively with each other And finally and importantly we need to continue Establishing continue a transfer of knowledge between data professionals such as myself and indigenous groups and that's two way and I It was asked of us before what we've got out of Paying respect to indigenous elders past and present etc. I can so I've learned a few things about data from this project like the fuzzy geometries and things but also the the Group decision-making around data access and so on. You know, these are things that I learn and so it's that way And then what I hope to return back, you know principles of data management and so on. Yeah That's it I think we're we're done on slides Thank you Len Sandra and Nicholas Are there any questions? This is a question Just in relation to I guess the spatial side of thing could you maybe hit up that southeast Queensland? Slide for me, please Because this was an interesting way to view representation of data. I thought not enough. It's a Sandra question or something but In in the example you used could this be represented if we're looking at historical data and data sets that You know, you said you were confident that that first one but less confident about the the macaille reach, right? Which very clearly is not if you come from Queensland, you know But Is there a way to represent that data in saying that okay that's strong circle there from Sunshine Coast to Gold Coast? Well, 500 sources a catalog 500 sources are recorded that say that southeast Queensland whereas Bundaberg down there's A few less, you know, and then macaille down. There's maybe two sources, but it still shows in that spatial form Is that a way is that what you're getting at there because what I'm thinking of is in terms of all of that historical data that says This is such and such country here One one anthropologist said this and you know and and a way to view that in terms of How many sources are correlating in terms of you know, where the strength and part is You know versus where it's sort of the boundaries differ a little bit. You get what I mean And then also to flipping What was a what was a modern source? What was historical source? What was in indigenously and all the rest of it? Yeah, look, that's exactly what the kind of thing is designed for Really what you see there. I mean, that's just made up, you know, my impression of where southeast Queensland is but What you're seeing is there's a theoretical what we call a feature southeast Queensland And it has a specific or multiple geometries in this case those polygons And those geometries have evidence for them. Now, there's no evidence. I just made it up But in your case you've given me evidence You said there are a certain number of historical sources that specify this one and then there's you know, etc Etc. So this feature can have a series of geometries with different levels of evidence They don't have to be numerical They could you know, they could all kinds of things that you might use to arrive at evidence But then taken together that set provides a an approximation of where this area is with higher and lower Confidences and so if you've got a lot of sources say well, we definitely know this indigenous area is here because in And instead of less so it'll it'll end up like that and where there's high Where those sources all agree you'll have high confidence or where they don't agree There'll be lower confidence and you and if when we improve the tooling that set of polygons will be a blurred kind of smooth color thing The darker the color the more strong and so on but it's all informed by different things with evidence and yeah, the one you gave is a perfect example And just following on from that Because then you'd find you'd find the section where there's an outlier And there might be one or two sources and then you can determine the veracity or the cultural veracity of that source Right, you know because you look for the outlier But then there'd be an instance of course where you find that outlier and you read through it yourself with With that applied knowledge and then you go actually that's been mistagged or that's been misrepresented And that's why it's an outlier. So You need to reflect. I know I've done that with libraries and different things. I was like, oh, this has been tagged wrong Is how do we Fix that or we're going to yeah, we're going to do that with the police districts to some extent. We're going to take Our best guess at where they are and characterize them But then we'll produce the spatial layer, you know police districts and they're these fuzzy geometries and as evidence grows about that Informing, you know, positively or negatively those things will change and we can represent I mean we can represent changes of actual geometries in actual time, you know, where a flood area was but we can also represent over time where our impressions of a geometry or other thing would be so in 1995 we thought the thing was here In 2022 we thought it was here, etc. Etc. So either one of those is possible This is that kind of time changing stuff is fairly straightforward and well known. What's not well known is that That weight of evidence for different versions of the same thing and that's what's being introduced And I should say this mechanism will be contributed back to an international data standard again, not just indigenous. Yeah I'll like just quickly add there Robert. We're also really concerned. I mean and lens case study of a variety of sources around police districts and gaps and all of that sort of thing you find in historical work We're also very concerned to easily make accessible the provenance underlying Yeah, the evidence around the evidence of these sorts of decisions and exposing that in a way You know that is that is becomes Very easy to to explore that sort of well What is the evidence behind this sort of assertion in a way that probably current gis systems don't really do and in a way Very similar to the aims and goals of our colleagues In tlc map and g happen You know, we hope to work closely with them on getting better historical data and dates and times and that So lens case work with images and this and the other and various work bringing that all together It's a really interesting case study to exercise these kinds of methods. I'll jump in there too. Um, just If you bringing that up, um Raising that that was a really good point. Um, I will point you back to the the round table that we held last year in gene as well If that's of interest and you wanted to kind of expand that out a bit more The presentation that michael erd delivered in in in the round table Is directly talking about that stuff as well So you might find that interesting to sort of point people back to there Yeah, and look, uh, I mean the gis people have got really smart tools for dealing with this sort of stuff I mean, we're talking about police districts here, but it's the same thing really applies like with language Locations as well that You can triangulate and constrain these fuzzy geometries must say, okay. Well, this is south queens. I'm sorry But we know there's a point stations of macae say So so it sort of pushes the boundary back the other way as well. I'd say you can get some probabilistic assessment I don't know. Well, I don't know. Well, there's an observation was just a thought as you were talking. Um In uh, what was it in the year 1710? Here in this part of the world What sort of data were the original inhabitants Relying on and gathering. How did they gather it? How did they record it and memorize it and distribute it? There's one observation and then come 1788 how did colonial impacts affect that data and process of from a trauma point of view had had it distort all things like that and Force removals and massacres and how did that interrupt the whole flow of data communication? And I'm sort of I'm thinking 1710 would have been through song and ceremony and dance and That's the importance of those things. So But yeah, just observations. That's all I can't really answer that But I can say something that we're doing on the technical front that will assist you that sort of thing So in the same way that we've got a fancy way of doing A feature with geometries and weighted evidence for them We can do a little bit more than that too. We can say that this feature, you know, there's The yorta yorta people's lands or something something like that We don't have to just describe it in geometric terms We can describe it discursively or in a narrative form And even if we can't go from there to a thing on a map directly We can co-record these things so we can say The the conceptual object is the homelands of a certain people and this is how it has been or is described Narratively and then we can approximate that if we want to or if we need to Spatially and we can keep those things joined up And it's part of our process of making implicit data explicit to connect bits of information that should be connected So in this case the narrative form of it of a description of a piece of land Should be tied to the thing that you see in the GIS to the point that Sandra mentioned if you click on that thing It might say well actually this is based on a narrative geometry And there's imprecision there, but here is the narrative geometry You know you make your own assessment or or whatever So we do want to keep these things close to each other and represent different forms of of knowledge Even if we can't always do a perfect mapping I'm really interested in this fuzzy geometry things that I think it's We need to go beyond fuzzy geometry to fuzzy history to fuzzy truth All together and and take that that metaphor of of of the fuzzy overlay to every everything that applies to Tab regional people particularly the stuff that white fellas have written down And I think about examples from when I was working at Uluru We were trying to develop a A booklet of stories that bus drivers could tell to tourists about different places around the bottom of Uluru And in the process of developing this booklet I found like 15 or 16 different recorded versions of these stories in various ethnographic works or travels tales or whatever and all of them were different And you know some of them majorly different And then so I went around and and recorded a whole bunch of elders in the community like 10 or 15 elders Talking about these stories and all of them were different too There is a fuzziness that's about the way people tell stories, but if you looked at the core of what You know the overlap of all of those stories. There is a core Of essential truth there that's recorded in that in that fuzzy narrative We have a very data-centric answer the general mechanism that we use for this sort of thing is to separate The conceptual identity of something from its projection So in this case here, we're looking at the conceptual entity of southeast Queensland And there's several approximations of where it actually is spatially in that case it could be that there is a Conceptual thing a story about something or other and the way that that story is actually related is different So it's projection into actual narrative is there are several issuances of that So that's the general doesn't always apply, but that's a general mechanism I I guess to the second dimension to that is that One one particular story I got four versions of it one of which was the story that's told to children One of which is the story that shared between men and women One of which was the story that only men know and one of which was the story that only old men know And all of them had the kid's story at the base of them But just more and more elements that explain different aspects of social interaction with with that story So, you know all true But all different And then there were all of the wrong versions of that story that why fellas had had also written down so You know some some were true some were not true. I mean This relates to steve's point earlier about whether the questions and things are the same The essential issues to work out whether with the conceptually this is actually the same thing at all If you can at least establish that then you can say are these variations with scope for a certain purpose as you just mentioned It's actually the same story but for children for men for old men etc So that's a scoped version of the same thing where you get into trouble is when it's actually not the same thing It's actually a different thing all together and that's that's there's no specific answer to that But I would say that the logic used to work out whether this question and that Is the same has some analog to the way we would do what you're describing there I think in that case it's quite straightforward You said they're all based on this child's story, perhaps But then they have more and more detail and knowledge and so on. So yeah, I think we can do something there It's about joining the facts up in the in a well-defined manner And that was again one of our found foundational principles in our project is to do that sort of knowledge joining John that that's what you're talking about Is a very strong cultural tradition and when boy becomes man He leaves mothers to become man, but you don't become a man in a day And you don't learn to become a man in one ceremony and that's why ceremony continues as a cultural Component of passing on information And the other thing is diversity of story. Who cares that there might be five different Interpretations of this particular totem story For example a willy wag tail or cheetah cheetah. He messes in here for death for some people. He messes in here for Integrity and other things here, but to the old girls at Uluru. They see him as which way gossip but He listening into this story, but that's deadly that there's all different interpretations And they don't have to have one universal And that's something that's got to be considered too. Yeah any other questions I just have one from online I who is this online have this is uh jelena hains May I ask if there is any intention to extend the project to south australia? I think it's a national project. It's a national project. Yeah, we may have given queensland centric examples because that's where I come from But no no totally national project and we're working mostly with large data holders generally I mean this example is about queensland, but uh mostly national data holders, which of course are national not location based Thanks, and just a comment to say thanks for the question and examples To bring it together more for the use of fuzzy boundaries to look at the police district's data, and that's from janet mcdougall at ada sterling data archive And the other thing john Sorry, they you can just say yes samurai in south australia is a partner in this project So you was on the fuzzy conversation before john and when you put your jumper on you reminded me of yesterday fuzzy was he was a man And you got into all that fuzzy was he communication just there. I'm starting right um Nicholas um, can you pass on our regards to sam that was sam just said last yesterday. Yeah, I'm sorry to hear that and Um, just to let him know that we were thinking of him and then You've been an old timer for a long time in this place. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and and again you can see that and you feel that So we don't know whether anybody on server said it to you, but thank you for your long-standing contribution and commitment to Advancing our interests as a people Are we ready?  I had uh Three I got it with me. I had three of them little hot dog burger rolls Figured out.  She had six and there was hiding them and then uh, who was into the Chocolate moose or when they got the recipe here a little bit too sweet and steve.  Okay, um we're going to go into our last well formal session as a group and then There'll be a planning group that will go off and meet after this from each of the project areas, but this last conversation Is going to be with Kristen and Levi who probe Discuss talk about future requirements for indigenous research capability. Yeah Some time today would be lovely Levi I guess we should start off with, um Professor Marcia Langton sends her apologies. She can't be here today. She the last two days She's been in the referendum working group an expert panel. So doing some fairly serious business on the side Unfortunately, she only found out about a week ago But we all understand why that needs to be a priority of for all things at the moment So there's hopeful things that are happening in that space, but she sends her apologize apologies to everyone But is really looking forward to hearing back on what the discussions were and what everyone has been reporting on for each of the individual projects But also really interested to hear more about what everyone thinks In terms of how we start to think about moving forward into the future particularly in the space of indigenous research capabilities so Levi do you want to start kick off the discussion? Yeah, and I guess I'd probably just to jog everyone's imagination and you know open the discussion Probably we'll revert back to a few things that have been themes throughout the last two days One of which is looking and when we talk about the the aspiration I guess for future research endeavors in the country moving forward And you know, we'll talk about the The pipeline It's a terrible word, but um, you know, what is it over the next 10 years along with the infrastructure builder? What is it that we actually need to? Actionably do and kind of expand and work on As far as improving research capability for people throughout the throughout the country So Feel free to have any any input or any questions even just open dialogue John Okay um Chelsea Bond and I wrote a An article a few years ago called beyond the pipeline We were looking at the production of health workers Over the last 20 years and the metaphor of the pipeline in this instance is the same as in in that case It's not a pipeline. It's it's a hose and nobody's bothered to turn it on Um, it's a you know, a tiny little dribble of of people who are going through undergraduate IT courses or undergraduate public health courses that will lead into postgraduate study in in quantitative science, so If we think back 20 years what was happening then uh at an you as the master of applied epidemiology in indigenous Um statistics And we got um, maybe 10 or 15 really Top-notch graduates out of that program may be more But I know 10 or 15 of them who are working now We really need to be thinking about About that we need to dedicate some resources to targeting promising young Aboriginal undergraduates and pushing them into um Into a dedicated master's course that's going to teach them some uh some data science stuff That's all Yeah, no, thanks for that Yeah, echo and agree with that Well, I also just thinking At the launch of the new center that Levi and I and the ideana in They were talking through some of the history of there was a previous iteration of the center earlier on It's now been reinvigorated And in Anderson professor Anderson was up there talking about how In the 80s, I think he said there was something like three Indigenous students enrolled in the medical faculty at the moment. We've got a hundred So, I mean things are turning around particularly in that area, but I don't know about everyone else around the room But from our perspective when we're trying to recruit when we're trying to do all sorts of things and train people up there's really not A workforce at all or enough training going into Indigenous people in the data sciences is we're finding a significant issue So i'm assuming everyone else is having similar experiences Okay, so I get there's a bit of confusion. I think between data science and quantitative data census data figures and you were talking about, you know Cultural centers that have all these videos and audios and their sort of qualitative data I think we really need to tease that apart because they're not the same things and I think most Aboriginal people that I know wouldn't care about the quantitative data They really really care about the qualitative. They really care about Recordings and you know stuff and especially now with language revitalization It's my thing that I'm interested in going back to early records is really really important and finding those records and bringing them back and using them in language programs So It seems to me, you know, you you've got all the data science stuff That's one thing you've got cataloging of existing collections and access. So Gliathus is the issue here You know access to items that exist and then there's making safe all the stuff that's in those local cultural centers That's not safe, you know, that's I mean, yeah, we know it's that risk We know of places that have been flooded that burned down and this stuff is gone So we need, you know a flying squad or we need advice and good tools for those people So I think in this whole discussion be really good to try and keep those things Separate so it gets it can get very confusing if you're talking about, you know, this and it's actually that, you know, yeah Thanks I agreed There are a lot of areas and whether we're talking disciplinary or otherwise that There are huge gaps at the moment and you're very right I think whether it be university by university or even nationally we start have to really start thinking about how we plan for that As you said data science is one area, but it's not the only area where we really need to have More Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people coming up and taking charge of it We've been talking about Indigenous data governance and sovereignty And that's not going to happen without Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people taking the lead on it Yeah, taking lead and also being supported into that leadership as well, right like that It's not a conversation or a dialogue that can okay without one without the other Um, and I will well, you know, just to kind of keep the open discussion going We'll spare back to the idea of the concept of language language is important language matters Um language does provide reality and structure over that, right? Um The only reason why I ever became a nurse in communities because once upon a time Someone told me that I could and someone told me that I had all these really good qualities that you know is indicative of a nurse And it was three constant like repeated and reminding that you know, you manifest that and And you you see opportunities, but opportunities not always like, you know, it's not the job of, you know, self-expiration discovery Everyone has a responsibility to and so when I talk about language language historically, um Has had the unfortunate ability to kind of lock people out of stuff too, right Can't be where you can't see that was mentioned yesterday You'll say like I challenge that and say like if you don't hear that and you don't see that around you in your world Like you'll never be that you know what I mean so I guess I'd open it up to like again Uh to discussion what's everyone's thoughts about like language and we're talking about like, you know future ongoing needs around infrastructure um What's the future ongoing need around language picking up on some of the Some theme that nick mentioned as well No thoughts for anyone Do we I I guess, you know, Levi's trying to say There really needs to be a rethinking and a reshaping because the way that the language has been produced and developed over time it's through a very western colonial lens and Sometimes as other discussions have been had over the last couple of days um Some words mean many things And not necessarily good things in different contexts. So thinking through also when Essentially tasks like this is going to require everybody coming together whether we're talking about, you know disciplines You know personally medical anthropology. We've got data science. We've got archivists. We've got librarians We've got a whole variety of different disciplines. We can't even talk to each other generally particularly well So, you know, we're getting to these mixed method projects or mixed disciplinary projects And we're really not that great at talking to one another So starting to think of that overarching Way that we think through these problems. I think is going to be one of the core issues that we're going to have to tackle in coming years Hi, I just have a comment from online from Dr. Jelena Haynes Who says that she's noticed the big gaps in South Australia, especially in library and information science Which is an important field of field to encourage indigenous students to gain knowledge and skills to record and preserve their knowledge in their own context I think we can all Agree that we all experience similar things like that. Um look LAM sector is not my sector Perhaps we've got someone in the room who'd like to comment on that No, potentially. No. Is there anyone online? Or perhaps we'll move on from that The um, I was I was going to sort of talking about that, you know Um, I've always been as as much as I might be Um, big note in the other day there Well, about saying, you know, I've got a couple of degrees and that anyhow I I've always felt like I'm a liaison officer or an interpreter And I think a lot of indigenous People in all no matter what level you're at That you're still nearly like an A liaison officer or an interpreter and And yeah, because I'll tell you I have two boys at home And one's an engineer Um at Boeing and the other one's A sound designer and I don't know if you know anything about sound design They're the ones that sit there and put the sound into movies computer games a whole lot and We sit at the table and have dinner without telling you too much personal stuff And and we don't actually say much to each other Because they're sort of like, you know, he's The engineer is the engineer Another one's a sound designer and they're really into the computers and They don't say much And I'm and I'm actually a social worker So rave on a bit And so we got I and and that's what we're talking about here a little bit And I'm saying we're all Aboriginal people You know like at home there and um, and then I had my wife in the mix and she's Irish British background. So We have an interesting Conversation and sometimes I feel like that that's what's going on here Is we got all these different backgrounds And we're trying to work on indigenous issues And then coming from all these different disciplines And like in the house feel I I I think I'm located there as a social worker, but Love, you know, I love my work of a mob yarning up So my point about this is saying that We're trying to bring a whole bunch of different people together to To work this out And and hopefully we can because but we can't leave out The liaison officers Yes, and and let me say there's also our Remember someone had a shirt there um Where they say I'm I'm safe or something poor indigenous people. What do they say? You know Ally that's the word. You know, I'm a safe ally, you know and you can't I think That's also what we need as well. We need safe allies with us That we know that we're going to trust them with our stuff They're not going to do us in So if if we can find people like that to work on these projects, I think that that's a Good thing. That's a bit of yarn and I'm I'm doing I'm doing the old yarning to tell a yarn Perfect example Yeah Just following on from that point about the safe allies is I don't think Nowadays you can be successful if you're not working in the best interests Of mobs and communities. However On the flip side of that from a monitoring perspective Perhaps there's a conversation around big institutions need to apply some monitoring mechanisms to Assess and find out who those people aren't aren't safe allies anymore or who slipped through the radar Back in the day and are still highly acclaimed Academics who don't hold the best interests of indigenous people but have made a career You know a career off Using indigenous data and those people still exist. They are still very much alive And for communities, I have heard communities explicitly say I'm just waiting for that I'll bugger to die so I can actually go and do some proper work So just on that flip side And I think that's a really familiar tale as well The amount of times that you go into different communities and there's always a story of a pretty dodgy researcher coming in and not doing so great things in Whatever context it is and look, I mean A lot of it Probably ignorance. We can chalk it up its history We do need to know about it and if people are still operating in that way today Which we know that there are there's every good reason for people to be a little bit suspicious And to actually ask the researchers to do the things that we really should be doing Yeah, I thought that last point it's interesting and I I do think there's some other changes in the in the broader Kind of research environment that that go to the point that you made to robin One of the things that was happening when we were looking to have an era and we won't we won't be having an era assessment So so for people who don't know what that is That's a an evaluation of the quality of university research And there was going to be one in um 2023 And and one of the things that it would have had to incorporate is that we now have um new research codes And and so so research is evaluated against research classification One of the one of the classification standards that we've been talking about And and and there is a there is a new indigenous. It's called indigenous studies And and there was a proposal to actually think about how do you evaluate research in indigenous studies? And and in particular, what do you need to do to consider issues such as community benefit community leadership community engagement Now we're not um We are not sort of going to have an era and we're going to move probably to a different kind of process But some of the signs were there that around something like that which kind of shapes stuff quite importantly for universities You know, there are some changes in other parts of of this system that that sort of also go to some of the things that we're talking about Yeah, look, I think there needs to be general institutional and national change when we think about the way that we do indigenous research It's very very clear That there are a multi a multitude of elements that are required when you aren't working with indigenous people We're all working with indigenous people when we're talking about data Um, that isn't necessarily the case in other fields of research or other areas For example, you know, if you get your standard ARC Grant You do not have a budget there for the extensive consultations You do not have an extended timeline for the extensive consultations that are required You do not have the requirements in there to have the onward going conversations and feeding back into the community The research that you've done and I think, you know across Australian research, we need to have a really significant think about that some of the philanthropic Grant bodies are starting to factor that in but very slowly Which means that we are going to have rubbish research that continues on the disrespects the people they're working with That doesn't actually factor in anything to do with indigenous data governance or indigenous data sovereignty because it doesn't allow that And it's very very disrespectful. And I think as a nation we really need to stop take that on board and Significantly advocate for change, you know, whether ARC You know the NHMRC wherever it happens to be We're doing research in these areas, you know, researchers are the ones who are going to have to advocate for that change It's not going to happen by itself I had a comment from Dr. Jelena Haynes who said that she Agrees with Dr. Stephen That we need to include the voices of liaison and integrating storytellers voices and they're lived in experience in the discussion Yeah, I'd probably Yeah, kind of, you know feeding back on the dialogue and responding Yes, we need to include those voices but that liaison stuff in the gap work there that is a gap And it's not also just the job of like the liaison or like, you know, the indigenous person in that position Because Italian that's burdensome as well, right? So this is the reason why we're asking questions What's actually missing? What are some suggestions? And it's not oh, let's load bear that up Of the of the person in that position that ain't it It's just like this is the reason why, you know, we're asking questions It's just like from, you know, the amount of knowledge and from knowledge expert holders and stuff in the room It's just like just one really pragmatic thinking It's just like I don't want to be this exhausted by the time I'm like, you know, Marcia's age It's just like I don't want to get there and have the same question and trying to be fine the same solution Because if that's the case like And you know, when we talk about research and stuff, I think it needs to actually precognite before we get to like the level of a master's I think, you know Data, you know, we're in the fourth industrial revolution data is in in every part of every job So it's just like no, no, there's actually a focus that needs to shift This is my opinion anyway We need to be doing that like at the very core essence It's just like how do you interact with data in your in your world? What role does that play? You know what I mean and then like then the specialization and that stuff So I'd like to hear everyone else's thoughts about that I have just got from my limited experience A little bit of a comment around the resourcing and the time and you're The point to not wanting to burden people with the responsibility around education Extension liaison, etc Of my experience of the time and energy it takes to come to a shared understanding between the researcher and the to's of what indigenous data is What indigenous data governs governance and sovereignty is and I think that there's a role just to support that around education of both researchers and to so we have a shared understanding beyond indigenous data as Traditional knowledge Like a broader understanding of indigenous data and your rights and interests I think would be there's I see roles for that. There's a real need because our people out there doing it out of the kindness of their heart and their spare time or really extending themselves and burning themselves out so That comments lovely. Yeah, thank you Any other burning thoughts in the room that you want to talk about? Um, I just want to come back to the concept of the ally Um, and we've been talking about pipelines over the last couple of days How do we start to think through a pipeline for actually teaching people how to Be a good ally Instead of just thinking maybe they're doing the right thing, you know, actually some concrete pathway forwards for that Um, I know that you know, I know that iatsis has the core cultural training, but it's kind of an opt-in kind of situation Um, yeah, what can we do to further ally ship? I guess Yeah, and you know bouncing off that comment to then Jenny I guess like we need to probably reevaluate the actual very, you know, very definition of ally ship You know, because it actually does imply that you do renounce and actually align yourself with like, you know So That's not necessarily a case. I don't think we you know, I don't think there's Like across the board There's a full spectrum of people that have that level of like all that humility and stuff and practice and you know renouncing that and actually Wanting to seek solutions and actually wanting to be informed And wanting to work in a way that's like, you know, non-injurious. So Just people as well And I guess taking it in another direction I was just what's that? Oh, there's another question Oh, sorry Sandra. Thanks. Thank you. Um, just before the round table I'll ask you. I forget which journal it was. I think it was an international Journal of regional health and the editorial board of that journal adopted a policy position that said we're not going to publish any research articles unless the researcher can demonstrate That care principles have been followed Um by and put the onus on the researcher to show that and In a past life when I used to be a trade union official dealing with issues of technological change Consultation gets you so far, but let's face it. It's not easy to do this stuff It does take time to be done properly And that is not something that either universities or funding bodies want to hear And they need to be being advised on Researches should be able to submit in their applications sufficient Resourcing and time to make this happen because perhaps the consequence of It not happening is that research doesn't get published universities will suffer reputational damage Some things that they really we know they really do care about Um, so that's just the old trade union official coming out in me there a bit that that you know, um Possibly may be trying to exert influence on commercial publishers to adopt these kinds of standards might win a few hearts and minds Thanks Sandra. I think that's a great idea because we know that there are a lot of publishers out there who are also asking for advice and how they can engage with them Indigenous data governance and and protocols and standards. So that's actually a really helpful Piece of advice or the only thing I worry about is the researchers who are trying to publish in there and then they're not getting the funding But in turn it does push back on the universities just thinking about the squeeze in universities Yeah, true We need this systemic change, you know, absolutely Okay, so I was going to take it in a slightly different direction So we've got in the room a range of different researchers. We've got people from community controlled organizations or have worked in those backgrounds So I assume we've also got data custodians in the room When you're working with indigenous data, what are the things that Often come to mind that would be a barrier for you to ensure that you are either connecting with the right data custodians or Ensuring that you are following particular protocols that you think should be in place What what do you think are some of the barriers that we need to work on? So I I work on collections in Australia that come from Papua New Guinea, the Pacific and other places And these are collections that would be lost if they weren't digitized and the people in those places can't get them. So When you're doing this stuff, there's always risk And I think the problem is that we often allow the risk to outweigh the benefit And so for what we're doing the benefit is that this stuff Can get back to those people that there's a catalog online They can find we take it back to local cultural centers and agencies for them to find these materials Which are their grandparents, you know, I mean it's that kind of thing But the risk is, you know, we're the colonialists. We've got this stuff. We're in Australia They're in the pacific So, you know, we you have to balance all that stuff up But if you don't balance it up and you just say, oh, the risk is too great. We're not going to do it Let's just forget about it. Well, they're the ones in the end that will not get access to that material.  Everything's colonial is bad. You've got to weigh these things up So I think it's complex and you should be prepared to engage in complexity as well Yeah, thanks, Nick. Absolutely. I think we all see that in our work and it does take courage. I think sometimes to sort of absolutely say, well The risk is not going to be as high as what it is if you don't do the whatever action it is to whether return the data or material There's always going to be a way that Our institutions will often ensure that they place the legal risk frameworks around us that makes it really problematic, but I think some of those things we need to think through a little bit better as well particularly when we know that a lot of indigenous knowledges are being lost And look, I think it's the job of all of us to ensure that We do as much as we can to preserve and maintain the knowledge that still remains Yeah, and I'd probably say like, you know, you're looking at diversifying and maturing your risk appetite in that sense then, you know what I mean No, and I mean that wholeheartedly Just like, you know, a lot of Aboriginal communities and stuff. It's just like we're we're seen as like, you know High risk taking whatever but that is by default the position that we find ourselves in right It's just like I'll give an example of the COVID like pandemic. I think that's a very good thing that'll illustrate it Is that we had The aqua sector the Aboriginal community control health sector working over above and beyond Getting stuff done working through it We did not have the time and the ability to all the luxury I should say To wait for a clinical governance model to come down from department So in in that sense, we use data. We used research skills in an echo To diversify and we built that clinical model three months ahead of government Do you know what I mean? We we have to head towards risk. We move through risk not around it So it's just like, you know, I'm going to say, oh, maybe we need to like diversify mature our risk appetite That's kind of what it is So being brave, you know, so Any other comments Particularly to do I guess with the type of work that we're in. Well, I know not everyone's working specifically Indigenous data, but indigenous data is usually in most data Um I know that a lot of the people that we've worked with before are very very hesitant to do anything about it because they're very unsure So they may want to be allies, but they don't know what to do about it And are terrified to kind of take that next step. I really want some sort of assurance Often I think I mentioned it before the IDN gets all sorts of queries ranging from really basic to broader but The IDN in particular we do not have the resources There does not seem to be any sort of national body to deal with any of this I mean, we've got a team on the ground of what Levi maybe Altogether Maximum but that's in kind. I mean in terms of funded through the idea and I think we've got three three positions So we definitely don't have the capacity there doesn't seem to be resources going in anywhere else But there is an absolute need in order for allies to actually become allies For some of this support to be going on so On this your risk risk management is part of It's a fundamental part within a standard governance Framework, but what you identified Levi is things that are not being identified. It's the cultural risks and what defines cultural risk versus standard risk And that's the level of cultural We need to precede words like psychology and sociology with cultural And what are the cultural risk elements that fit within a shared governance framework in this? framework that you're working on For the and call it a shared governance is a reciprocal thing because you can't achieve what you need to achieve I was talking to Robert Yeah, the day and we drew on a napkin If you look if you put the Aboriginal people that you want to engage with in a circle in the middle of a page That's where you want to get to But what you've got to understand is that to get into that circle There's a whole level of layers of complex trauma If you go into a stolen generations Circle the trauma is even more complex than what it would be to be bought up in Cherbourg or Warabinda Versus Christian mission versus government reserve. That's the level of detail We've got to get to truly understand how to engage authentically and with integrity and honor in this space so When you come in from western governance, you're talking on an outer circle where it's about performance and accountability starting with leadership and strategy policy procedure risk management Um monitoring reporting. That's all your your standard western Stuff that's on the outer circle, but you still got to get into that inner circle now the people like Levi Who can go into that middle circle and understand the trauma and live the trauma day in day in you Whether you like it or not you you you still got it when you're working down the road in correct Okay, so that's the old notion of 24 seven You can go home, but he he can't Because it's clicking over and to you it'll be still clicking over to but different dimensions of it So to get out of this process there's a There's a need to build trust mutual understanding respect and trust My time working in Aboriginal affairs. I can say that You know, I've heard the terminology that it's an industry. It's an industry And a lot of people do well in this industry It's like in the incarceration space. We're the highest incarcerated people in our own country. We're impoverished And oppressed in our own land. We're welfare bound on our own country So We are an industry and then in the incarcerated space people get paid good money to work in incarceration to to Keep us under control Historically you'd be controlled in a mission or a reserve, but now they can't do that. So the next alternative is prison It's clear logic to me that the system is operating the way the system wants it to be there is reason why we're oppressed And the opposite to Privilege is oppressed So when you start to evolve forward, you've got to really peel back the layers And really get to the core because you're trying to get into that in a circle But there's a series of steps That'll allow you to come halfway in and you'll never ever expected to get into that in a circle of trauma, but he's in there He'll come out and meet you halfway, which is what happens But you'll go back to a western Government system university system framework of thinking he'll go back into the community So somewhere you've got to understand him and he's got to understand you but you two are allies You have to value and respect the contributions that you each bring but you've got to agree to meet Somewhere in the middle Which is not in his space and he will never get to your small he could get to your space and you could get to his space But That's the big picture. Yeah, and that's why I have a point about shared governance 42 years Same shit different day In many ways and that's not saying this of here Um The amount of government rhetoric I can take you back to a report. I remember Steve you remember that in the miller report It was all about making a concerted effort As so it's concerted attempt to change the social economic circumstances of our Brisbane Torres Strait people It's the same shit different day So again, what you're on a halfway you're on a journey But you have to get the shared governance framework intimately Unpacked and restacked and you've got all the key players in this group If you catch a one on picture that all come from your risk analysis stuff Journey we might ask Yeah, yeah I have a another comment from dr. Jillina Haynes who apologizes because she can't be on the video right now Saying that she works alongside the elders for 20 years and our concern now is to access financial support To digitize recorded knowledge that has been recorded and some of the elders are no longer around I think that's also a common thing in in many communities. I know that where we work It certainly is happening everywhere the Lack of resources in that space is really quite shameful. I think at a national level Because as as we all know Indigenous knowledge a lot of it is all there is is on these tapes And once they're gone, what is the deadlines 2025? Um, if it's not digitized by then it's gone forever So I think you know, that's another thing where there really needs national advocacy to ensure that there are appropriate resources going into digitization But once we digitize it There also needs to be the infrastructure to both score it and ensure that it is Held in perpetuity and looked after and managed properly in a way that is right for the community who belongs to it I guess one of the things I'll probably mention is ultimately the audience is wanting to function and you know really kind of enrich Community of practice So yeah, we would encourage anyone to kind of come along to that as well Like I said, only one of three staff that function the IDN And it's like I'm a big boy, but there's so much of me to go around being spread Spread and possibly fit at the moment And obviously it'd be way for ignorant of me to think that I had all the answers and all the solutions That is clearly just not the case So what I like, you know, one of the lovely things is is day in day out. They do work besides Kristin Um, so all things feel really possible Only 10 jaded the other part of me is like starioid optimistic. So Yeah, I would love to like fold other people into that space as well Um, and because the thing is it's it's about collective knowledge to write for a shared goal and But benefits average and trust are on the people collectively benefits everyone, right? It's a positive curve theory, so Anyone with final thoughts before we get it wrapped up? Yeah, just oh I know I seem to rave on a bit. It's just a social work thing but um When you you made me think of um It's it's one of like I I lecture lecture to in In bringing people together and hopefully win a few allies In uh, social work and also got some psychology students This some this semester, I think It's about this thing of um having Uh, when you know like about that allyship How do you like and we're always hoping that we get people into that space? We're at the end of the course That they're on board as an ally and sometimes One one of the things we say about people is that you're not losing your culture If you learn about Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander people What do you do and is you're actually gaining? And that's the same thing with all different cultures You're actually expanding your world And you're gonna you're actually gonna know about other people's world and you'll be a better person I know that sounds really hairy fairy done it But but when you actually take on other people's cultures And you start learning about that Suddenly your world expands Rather than putting the wall up going Oh, how come these Aboriginal people what's this referendum thing about? What do they want a treaty for you know like People put that wall up. You don't need to put that wall up You need to expand it and say hey come on. Let's go for it See what happens here and see what I might learn from Aboriginal Torres Strait Islander people But then also what you may share with them From your culture I have you know, I have friends from overseas and met a lot of really good people from the Ukraine And you know like you think of think of that You know and they're And and sad to say I've been invited over there a couple of times, but I haven't gone and And I'm just saying to you expand Expand just you know expand yourself How you kind of work with Aboriginal Torres Strait Islander people I think that was a brilliant way to wrap it up unless we oh, no, we do have one more Um, this is slightly more general comment I'd like to make but it does clearly relate with this discussion Particularly Levi the discussion about risk I think anybody who's been in this room for the last two days Can have no doubt that all the strands of this enterprise we're joined in are deeply serious About the risk management aspect of handling data And And this is a topic I've actually discussed with Steve mckacken along the way and I think I mentioned it to Jenny sometime I think We should consider the possibility that we can renegotiate With universities Some aspects of who takes responsibility and what I'm thinking of here is that people who are Committed to putting data through our processes Should get benefits in the ethics process from that the university should be able to say You're putting your data with ID and fine. We take every box because we know that it will be managed responsibly That's a really good point That was the way to finish Thank you guys sorry if I got ranty Yeah, thank you everyone um Levi I'm very proud of where you've got to and what you've achieved Coming from where you've come from Now that you need to hear those things and the same was young robert the same it's Back is the same. It's about Just acknowledging The work that you're doing and giving you the authority to continue to do what you've got to do Not that you need our authority, but you're just being respected for all the effort that you do That's what our older generation need to do with the younger ones build each other up and not pull each other down Yeah, so I'm from here um I'm going to just give you a general I pulled out words.  No, it's not. Um It was starting to be talked about there um In the data space, this is just me asking questions Who has been privileged and what was the opposite of privilege in the context of data And the opposite of privilege as I touched on just then was oppression um when it comes to allies It's important thing. One of the things that ally ships all about Is that you've got to understand your own privilege first Before you can actually go out and engage with others. You've got to take the first step You'll make mistakes But you've got to learn from your mistakes. So in the data research commons and indigenous research You're going to make some mistakes. But as you said, Simon These are all here together. You're all allies already. You just got to consolidate and strengthen that um I think there's a need to Define and sell what value data in a modern society Brings to first nations communities across our diverse landscape Because a lot of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander communities on the ground Would not know understand half of the things that you're talking at at the levels that you're at And you need your liaison type persons that can go halfway and meet So they're the they're your internal allies So sell the sell what value it and the value that it can bring for a whole range of other related things for the community shared governance Obviously needs to be trauma-informed healing focused and culturalized for whatever better word Um and it needs to have its own sort of a reconciliation focus Up to this point Aboriginal peoples access to data Has been probably limited But you're actually creating an opportunity to enhance that your capacity to access all the necessary data that you need Has been limited. It's the evolution of how technology works um Three projects operating and a few other components that we've heard over the last two days and I wrote down to myself um Respect for collaborative ethical relationships have to exist between all three And you need to be streamlined You need to do what you do Value your own autonomy project autonomy, but you need to recognize that you're running parallel with each other to a common a common end Mutual trust You need to have established mutual trust across your projects with each other You need to think about notions of And you haven't seen this yet or this language, but kinship leadership or kinship led project approaches By that son, that's going what you were saying is is to valuing the the unique and special skills of every individual here What you bring to this process for the benefit of all You have to support each other if one of the project teams are suffering Well, then you the others help out in some way you do that in your own autonomous groups But in the context of the three projects that we've talked about here You've got to keep an eye out for each other in my mind and I might not be right, but So there's mutual trust Respect for collaborative ethical research That's accessible streamlined trauma informed healing focused And underpinned or guided by your fair and care principles That's about all my waffle What I want to do before I head you back to Jenny Jenny and Michael Now I haven't heard Michael. He's been as quiet as a mouse all day yesterday, but I do want to hear him by the end but not just yet I want to go table by table and just give me You take away thoughts for the last two days And I want you to hand it to my deadly sister over there the blonde hair because you had something to say earlier And it was worthwhile saying and we're going to go Be honest Hi everybody, my name is Alicia Um, and I'm also a social worker. So I apologize in advance by waffle. Um over the last two days, I guess I've heard a lot of things that have been out of my depth or beyond some knowledge technical things I've learned about um Methodologies for doing things and lots of awesome tools, but um the thing that I kept coming back to is I I wonder if the real depth of if the people in this room realize there's people at the end of these Methodologies, so I work for a community controlled organization Um, I've spent a long time working Um with vulnerable families on the front line And some of the things that you're doing have significant real world impact to people life changing things like reunifying children Kind mapping families when people thought their identities were lost. And so I'm just Yeah, this last two days has been brilliant for me around um Seeing all these big systems big picture things but just trying to remember that there's communities at the bottom of this community controlled organizations On the front line of gathering some of your data, uh, we're the ones that are gathering that um and You know, we we're the ones that go out and hold community trust And so I just I think about that and I think about How we can apply some of these tools and make sure we're meaning community. We're maintaining community trust. It's important yeah And that's fair. That's Feedback on the run Any other comments from that table? Look at this. Oh, john. You're going. I knew you was going to say something john No But you need a strong cultural foundation and an understanding appreciation of What ancient ways can be applied of modern days in many ways and To me, that's that's the conversation needs to start That you start with to actually truly get an authentic shared governance framework and approach Now this lucky gentleman over here is sitting by himself Take away message for the last two days. Um Sometimes I reflect I've got 11 year old and we live in the same house But we like live in different worlds, you know, his his view of the world is so different from mine I wonder if we have the same kind of thing between Indigenous and non-indigenous. We live in the same land, but we live in different worlds And we maybe we need to build a bridge across those worlds Well, who's going to start that's the conversation, isn't it? How do we build the bridge? Yeah Yeah In this room that are from different sectors that are like White fellow black fella as well. We this is the bridge in the commons and the research commons is the beginning of the bridge of the two worlds I was really inspired by what was said yesterday around like there's only black fellow ways and there's Space for you in it and like the invitation For all of us to participate in the one world, which is australia. I'm not sure that it's two different worlds. Yeah Ancient ways modern days. It's as part of the answers in building a strong sense of kinship and kinship respect back to humanity But again, it's it's you're right here. You've got a whole group of different people who are all Individuals that are all invested in this space But you're all family so your family in this data commons space But you all have your own Individual idiosyncratic ways and methods of thinking and being and that's okay. That's what makes it interesting but support each other and build the bridge and It's the old saying that you know, we can say that that's okay, but we're Aboriginal people See it. It's like the liberal party ideology was that everybody starts on the same line. You're familiar with that The only one that starts on the same line were white males land hunting males predominantly so Black people are back here migrant Indian people Back here women back here So we've got to break down those barriers and get better understanding that sort of stuff But do it together We are one we are many from all the lands know if we come that would be a good start Yeah, you're over this way right I was just can I just can I jump on that that bridge building thinking I was thinking if you're going to build a bridge there between those two worlds. I mean one world has this A whole heap of knowledge in there in terms of sustainability. I mean it's sustained for 80 000 continuous living years so there's a lot of reason to build a bridge and access that knowledge in many respectful ways And I'm sure from that world that if we're living in black fellas, we'd build that bridge, but you see on our land Our access to our resources are all locked up We can't how do we build that bridge in that sense? when the purse strings are held by governments and successive governments who've made decisions that have effectively Caused the problem that we are in now when we talk about indigenous data governance And that more broadly and the problems we face with that today It is the imposition of colonization as to why we're working in this space If that didn't exist, we would know very clearly because those governance Lines that had existed for thousands of years would have continued The sharing of knowledge of indigenous data would not have been imposed upon too. So I think the impacts of colonization is pretty important Is a keystone to the and we're all aware of this because we're all working in that space and and it does impact You know what we're what we're doing, but I just wanted to raise that point specifically Just around access to do and the very one of one of the very simple solutions comes back to Putting black felt the right black fellas in those positions to make those decisions as well You know to work with other black fellas, too So it's you know, they talk about indigenous lead indigenous first those kind of concepts putting that at the forefront Putting them in in control of those resources to build their half of the bridge To use the analogy Well, value value the contributions. I'll come back to this table over here and we're heading this way There's a challenge for this table over here work out who you want to speak Um, I think I probably just want to say that um old is new and new is old. Um, I've actually got a lot out of today in terms of context and scene setting really and contextualization and a lot of this is um, it's new but it's old and it's all intertwined and having a look at it in terms of government policy and processes Engagement with stakeholders building in Aboriginal community control because that is so important, but also building in um, our communities building in our indigenous worldviews and building in our families in terms of some of the things that you've been saying um, I'm Here um with iatsis and I think in terms of some of our engagement Some of our engagement has been old But it needs to be new and we need to really kind of embed ourselves in some of this process and this discussion Going forward in the way that we probably should have been um, historically over the last little while So yeah, old is new new is old. Thanks. Yep, and that reminds you again of the ally ship where In an ally to be a good ally you you're allowed to make a mistake You can you will make mistakes. There's no no such thing is perfect And no one has all the solutions But you have to work together, but if you continue to make the same mistake Well, then you've got a problem Uh, and I'll go back to my gentleman print at the back And I should have said from a cultural kinship point of view. You're 11 year old son is my 11 year old grandson in a in a kinship context Uh, if I was your your brother Well, he's my uncle father to your son if something happens to you I've got a responsibility to steer your son On the right path. That's what kinship's about and that's what this process can be all about So I'm a new lucky duck you get the own Hey, I think I'm gonna sound like Pollyanna here But I'll go ahead anyway a few minutes ago I said that if you've been in this room for the last two days, you couldn't doubt that we were serious about certain issues And I like to expand that and say you couldn't be doubt that we are serious about tackling these incredible problems and I think on the basis of having a group of people who are serious about the problems and have goodwill in their hearts We can make progress and we are starting that journey Yeah, well, you actually well and truly on that journey Now Simon's been very quiet and I want to hear his lovely soft gentle spirit and voice come to the fore take away message Simon before I hand you back to Hey You know Simon, I'm looking at you Michael and I'm talking I'm talking looking at you and refer. Oh shut up, Brad yeah I don't feel like I'm the right person to speak because I'm actually very much a beginner on this journey and I did want to just Convey my respects to the people in the room have been working such a long time um I think probably what's required here And um, you know, if anyone from Encriss is listening um, I think what we're starting in this room is something which will be useful for the whole landscape of research infrastructure, not just the haspit And I think what You've been really conveying very well Is it's it's when you talk about a bridge? The the traffic goes both ways, right? um, and there's a lot of talk, um, I feel about um communities needing to be helped That's one direction But I think the other direction is there's a lot of help that can come from communities for this country um, and it's There's a lot of wisdom And there's a lot of good practice that this country would benefit from enormously And if you sort of it that way Gosh, wouldn't you invest in the other side of the bridge? Yeah, right. Yeah, so I think Seeing it as a two-way bridge is really really important to to value that so You know a great experience And again, it's it's valuing the individual knowledge skill set that you bring each each of you bring to this whole thing I've got a set skill set you got a set skill set, but I need you as you need me sort of thing um Same thing this and I don't think we put enough emphasis on How we value other people's knowledge and skill sets? That's that's important part of this process And Neil I'm going to come to you as the esteemed old timer On this table Len Len, yeah I'm hitting that time of the day. I'm calling charlie browner Yeah, thanks look This was there's been a really strong indigenous focus on our discussions and that's really great I suppose if we step back a bit We're really talking about building institutions which are addressing the data needs of First Nations people and the Australian community as a whole and I think Just to tick it off. I think we'd need to Particularly pay attention to the fact that the program of work that's the jetties sort of lettuce on Has some notable gaps and I keep saying the one that worries me most is that There's not enough focus on the humanities and there's almost no focus on the arts So Next stage somehow that's got to be addressed in terms of the indigenous program What I keep coming back to is how all this is going to fit into the voice and truth telling especially I think The role of information and data is going to be absolutely central in that and I think the sort of institutional arrangements that support the voice You know, I think well Today we're probably looking at the seeds of what that is those institutional arrangements are going to be so, you know Let's build on that. Yep And before we leave that table, I'm going to go to that handsome looking fox there that's scrubbed up like across between Scott Morrison and Bob Ork You ever said nothing while you've been here. I want you to tell us what your take Yeah, look for me, I come from an organization That looks at or talk the conversations around infrastructure and data In a totally different context. So this has been really rich for me to sort of come back to that understanding that That is not just about like ones and zeros just from the technical point of view that there's embodied in that a people a stories a culture So I think that'll be something interesting for us to go back to our organization Because it's very IT focused Uh to to sort of again come back to you know, why are we why are we supporting as an organization research What are we trying to move towards and and help reinforce and not lose sight of that and that's I suppose a better future I think I'll leave it at that It did well Now I can go to this Young lady over here who's also sat down that same spot and young lady is kind. Thank you My name is Sarah poking horn. I'm based at RMIT, but I've actually just recently arrived from Canada So my takeaway is just All the learning that that you've made possible. I certainly came to the right place Just in terms of getting oriented to this whole space and the conversation here And of course coming from Canada, that's kind of where my mind is also Going because of course the conversation is not identical But a lot of the a lot of the challenges are similar But a lot of the opportunities and strengths and maybe potential connections are Parallel and and similar as well. So so just just thanks and and it's been a real pleasure To sit back and take lots of notes and try to absorb and you've been joking about the acronyms. But yeah, that's that's a That's a real That's a real thing, but uh to no one's surprised. So just just appreciation on my part Yeah, lucky duck again I'm a lucky duck loner on a table I would just like to say thank you for opening this up. Yeah, open invitation. It's been a real honor and um Lovely for you to say that um, you know as allies were allowed to make mistakes and that's a real relief. Thank you because I think it takes um Some you know guts and gruel to kind of walk together and um Healed together um trauma moving forward and putting You guys, you know, you know Position of power because I think you've got a real opportunity at the moment. I think there's a real Taste for you know at e-research Australasia this year or last year It felt like every second talk was oh and we want to embed the care principles. So I guess um, you guys indigenous lead can shape how you want that to look and I look forward to Yeah, joining your journey. So thanks Whatever comes up or being partnership with yourselves Uh, this second Foxy look hasn't said much Hello So i'm actually part of the team uh in the indigenous studies unit Um And these are the types of conversations that we have every day Almost every day right about data and i'm a data analyst. I'm a sociologist quantitative sociologist So we talk about these issues every day and it's really good to see That these conversations are now kind of being had in a in a group setting with people from different backgrounds um, I wasn't here yesterday. I was um, I was busy with um Uh, basically doing the same thing but with uh with other people in the office, but just coming in here today around noon Seeing people who are part of our team so len and sandra and and nick john all the way back With whom we're also partnering as well as some old colleagues from other departments around the university who are here It's just a great It's great to see people involved with data From different backgrounds and again kind of it goes back to what christen was saying That data has different meanings to different people. I know as a even though i'm into kind of the social science space The way I think of data analysis is at times very different to the way That somebody else um in a maybe an adjacent field uh would would think about um data So it's just a very good feeling. It's a good feeling of camaraderie And also being able to have these conversations outside of our Small office over there on gratin street. It's uh very good to be here So thank you very much and uh, thank you. Um, and thanks to christen as well. Who's my boss, but also, um, someone who had a lot to do with um Organizing this session as well as janny and her team as well. So they can't before you hand that microphone All right, can you say this On the cold and rich Chicago born and another little baby child was born in the ghetto Now do you reckon Simon come on And his mama cry Believe I wasn't that your boss is sitting there. You're going to do it now We laugh with nor that rotate. What's your takeaway? Thanks so much. Yeah, look, uh, yeah, just really happy to be here I think it was a really great opportunity for me To learn much more about the other two projects of DACA and the indigenous research capability I you know, we we just talked today about about kind of building bridges and connections and I really like your your words around, you know, helping Each other out and so on and I do think, you know, for me It's I've only been involved in in the iris project for, you know, about 12 months and obviously I think for the other projects as well as for us the focus has been on You know, we haven't had much time. So, you know, we just try to demonstrate something, you know build something between, you know The time that we within the time that we had basically until the the end of June this year You know, we we all kind of worked within our kind of projects to to to do something and to be able to demonstrate something and, you know, as you Could have seen within the iris project.  So, you know, it's great to see those Presentations and and, you know, find out about those things and and these are the kind of things I think connections and how we can work together and and, you know, obviously Everybody's going to have to maintain that stuff internal focus as well, you know, you keep keep pushing things forward But then, you know, how how how can we reach beyond the individual projects and try to do something together? Michael and I had a sort of a discussion around future As we're talking about data and research data commons now in 2023 But what was what will the conversation be in? 2073 to think ahead the past present future And that's where I think your focus should be also And this is this way this this um event here the symposium is a great, you know, great thing to be in this Yeah We'll go to the back bench and I'll go to the middle gentlemen sitting in the middle Hello everyone I'm Jonathan Bollen and I I teach theatre and performance studies In a school of arts and media. So it's really interesting to hear the conversations about about the scope for arts and creative arts data to Come into the commons and I can certainly see the potential for that. I also think that That there are Approaches in the creative arts that are that really resonant with some of what I've been hearing and learning about from First Nations peoples and indigenous perspectives on data about the way data is Not only, you know countered and visualized but also embodied and shared and and communicated through song dance and And storytelling and in gathering as well in bringing people together. So all of those The social architecture dimensions is something that's shared with the With the creative arts and I I think there are also A lot of scope to be working with Creative people to make sense of data. That's that's one of the things that I've been working on I'm looking at the the theater companies who are who are who are using data to create performance so rather than writing scripts or or Or or you know gathering stories. They're actually turning data into into creative works of art. I think it's a really interesting time. So Thank you for the opportunity to listen into these conversations Thank you very much to each and all and Joe Joe Thank you online. Who's online online? We have a few comments from online. So Dr. Jelena Haynes says ideas learned from the from the two days were respect trust mutual relationship and reciprocity Ancient and modern days needs to coexist and work together Maria Weaver said as a librarian working Relatively recently started in the data common space I've gained a lot of learnings from this symposium and I hope to continue learning and expanding my understanding More over time. I appreciate all the comments and insights from everyone. Thank you so much for the sharing and openness Jennifer rumble dr. Jennifer rumble from She's a Camilla Roy woman from at Newcastle University says that she really appreciates this space to hear groups talking and sharing respectfully hearing too that people are looking at lost and orphaned data By bringing together innocent and bringing together in a central space For many purposes keen to hear more as the IIRC and IDN great work. Thank you And thank you to uncle Grant for your wisdom in guiding us And uh, Robin Burgess from ARDC Is the research data specialist in data governance at the IDC and he's thrilled to hear About the importance of data governance being mentioned so much And he looks forward to hearing more in this area and learning more and contributing to future discussions Thank you. Thank you. And can you think uh, Just the online audience. It's always difficult not to be able to see but thank you for their consistent contributions and questions that they raised which was very important Um, thank you Joe For the work that you do behind the scenes to get this stuff. Um, Mary Thank you all so because um, you do a lot of things behind the scenes I wouldn't recommend eating six hot dog hamburgers at lunch anymore. No, she didn't But you're part of the team that helps Jenny and and their things in a kinship based Arrangement It's easy to get up here and do what I gotta do But I rely on you and that's an important thing that needs to be valued So there are things that we need to embrace across this whole process What's your name sister? Yeah, you know, I'm looking at you. What's your name? Sonja. Good on you. Sonja. You've done a deadly job too And our brother fox up here. Look, what's your name? Steve Good on you, mate. Thank you Um, thank you each and every one of you for your participation over the last two days It's been always it's a pleasure to come and spend time in the presence of unique and special souls And it's my pleasure to and that's not a pleasure It's just great for me personally to see people come together and treat each other like family And respectful and that's what it's all about. That's what caring sharing and respect Is all about and that's who we are all children of the universe here Some of us have had a bit better than others But we're all in the same We're all in the same ballpark trying to do the same thing and that note I'm going to hand it back to janny and michael Who's going to close it up? Peter. Peter's going to come up to It's all yours, jen I Did want to touch on what grant said about kinship when we started on this path Back in june 2021 Um, I think you know, we were quite a diverse group of people We still are a very diverse group of people But what we have come together with is kinship And we are very blessed that we all work well together And we've got one another's backs and I think that that's really important. So, you know, we're a good team And we're willing to take more people into our family of has an indigenous rdc So thanks everyone for coming along. Thank you to everyone who helped out There's more food out there We're going to have a little planning session just for the partners So if um, but thank you to the rest of you who've come along And hopefully we'll see you again next year and thanks to everyone online as well Thanks to my ardc colleagues for their assistance. So yes, thank you everyone