we doing everyone? Welcome to the Nintendo Prime podcast season 2 episode 56. I don't know where daddy Jake left. I don't know what he's doing. Maybe he needed a private moment. It is what it is. I guess he'll show up when he shows up. We are going to have quite an interesting show for you guys today. We are jam-packed with eight people. It's going to be pretty crazy. We have a lot of stuff to talk about today. We'll be talking about things such as, hey, looking back at the Wii U and 3DS because, yeah, we finally have an end date for when online support is fully ending, which is basically the death of the system, of course. You guys all know that people will modify. You have private servers and all that, but that's just something that always keeps retroalive for a long time. We're going to be revisiting a debate that originated on Andrus Research Channel and bringing it back to this channel for a round two of is Nintendo Switch 2 coming out in 2024 or 2025 or 2026. Yeah. Yes. Can push it out further or exist and or and we will dabble a little bit in the Powell world towards the end as well. So a lot to get into, but first let's go around the room, introduce everyone and what have you been playing lately? We'll just start right next to me. Mr. Mayor may not keep it clean. Daddy Jake, what are you playing? Let's see. I am planning on playing Powell world. I didn't play anything this week because I was in Florida. Obviously, I called into last week's show on my laptop from my grandma's house. So, yeah, you're looking pretty crisp, my friend. What's that? You're looking pretty crisp. Thank you. I know. By the way, I completely forgot about it. I just remembered today. Oh, no, that's what I was trying to say to you before. I was like, dude, I'm so sorry, we didn't connect. No, it completely slipped my mind as well. I'll make it up to you on Valentine's Day, I promise. For sure. Someone's got it. That's an average thing for co-hosts on a podcast to do, you know, make it up to Valentine's Day. We have a special relationship. It's very special. Just don't bring up that zero touchy subject. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No Mario cover. I'll talk today. All right. We got for the first time ever backlog banter here. They're a podcast show, I believe. And I think it's Tucker and Abram. Mike. Hello. Yes. You saw one Mike in one house. Look at that. Nice to meet you, Abram. I think it's my first time talking to you. Yes. I was lurking in the chat for you guys debate. That's pretty much a prime two. I think we're going to have a little Metroid Alliance here, Andre. Let's go. I have to say, I'm on Tucker's side of the whole debate, but we're on the same Metroid side. And that kind of transcends all I think that is. That's all it really matters. And a donut. I'll be right back. It's always a donut with this guy. Where? He doesn't even share the wealth. I've been waiting for a donut for so long. I do love muff. I love a good muff. We know that a good muff with a donut. All right. Especially the donuts with the holes in them. For starters, I want to introduce to you guys are and what you guys do and then tell us what you've been playing lately. Great. You do the intro. Oh, of course. Yeah. I'm sort of the brains and he's sort of the brawn of the operation over here. Backlog banter. Believe it or not, YouTube channel time of video games, but we try to do things a little bit differently. I know. I know. I know. We'll take it easy here. We'll ease you into it. But we don't do just the kind of easy stuff here on Backlog Banter. We try to do topics and ideas that we don't hear people talk about very much. Recently, we just did a topic about what constitutes a dead game franchise because you always hear people like, oh, this series is dead. That series is dead. Yada, yada, yada. And we're like, well, what really does this mean and what qualifies? And so we broke that down. We talked about what made the Wii such a weird system. So these are like really strange off the beaten path topics. They don't get many views because of that. They're not as clickable as what Bell or Andres do. But our next video probably will be a lot more clickable, which is that we are taking the extreme and trying to predict the entire next generation of Nintendo games. We are going over seven years worth of games every month, every title, every developer. People like to predict one year's worth. Oh, let's head on to it next year. We're doing the entire next system. And we're also not doing it alone. The reason why this will be such a clickable thing is not only is it a pretty interesting topic, but we're also bringing in some outside interference here, including friends of the show, guests of the show, friends on the show right now, friends on the show. Andres, restart and Botox games will all be contributing among some other guests, some other names you might have heard at Nintendo Life and Good Vibes Gaming and those kind of places, which is going to be pretty cool. And that's going to be in about a month. So maybe want people to subscribe and get excited and predict alongside us.  I'll get it. You told me by the end of the month. I got to actually add it to my board. So I think my fear about this is right. I know I'm going to say something that someone else is going to say. Yeah. But I also want to edit it. I'm trying to not just skip or anything. See, that's why you don't go for the obvious ever. You go wild. Oh, yeah. But I think it's a pretty interesting idea.  But I've never once in my life seen anyone try to predict the entire next generation, the entire generation's worth of games. We have a spreadsheet document that goes like 200 deep. And so this is going to be a big insane document. I've seen it. Awesome. And what have you guys been playing lately? We've been playing the same game, actually. We've been playing Prince of Persia, The Lost Crown. I just bit it this morning. The game, can we swear on this program? Yeah.  Yeah, you can. I'm not a big Metroidvania guy, but I love Metroid in particular. Are we allowed to say whatever we want? Look, motherfucker, we got to keep it with me.  Well, I mean, I don't know. He will not be keeping it clean tonight. It's out of the system. No, I just had to get it out of the system. You got to get out of the system. But get Prince of Persia in your system. Yeah. Ham fist is segue, but the game is really good. The, I mean, this team from Ubisoft made the Rayman game, so it's no surprise that the movement is very, very, very good. And it's just very, it's very approachable and very cinematic. I think that if you're turned off by these kind of larger Hollow Knight style Metroidvania titles, but you love what Mercury's team does and so much returns in dread like I do, you'll love Lost Crown. Yeah. Yeah. So definitely check it out. Totally loved it. All right. Nice. Yeah. I actually plan to pick up that game myself with the next paycheck. It's going to be, I'm going to have a good time. Oh, yeah. Very good. I've heard everyone who loves Tideswind will love this game. So I'm, I'm, I'm all in. I'm waiting for that. People say that it's 20. The reporting was 25 hours. I beat the game in 13. I think it's not actually that long. It's not that daunting. That's fine. I prefer shorter. Yep. It's a very good life. Oh, that's an emo. What's going on, buddy? What's up? How are we doing, guys? All right. What are you playing lately? It's got to be something over there. A little bit of something. I just not too long ago beat Prince of Persia as well, about 25 hours into that game. Pretty, pretty freaking good. Like Ubisoft pulled it off. They actually cooked this time. So hopefully they continue cooking. I just picked up and shrouded and playing that pretty, pretty great game as well. Definitely one of my favorite survival games this year. I know everyone's talking about power world. And I'm like, bro, we got a shrouded coming out. We got Nightingale. Like these are the games I'm looking forward to. So, you know, you guys can take your Pokemon arc. All right. All right. Botox games. Yes, sir.  You know, the indom is in playing cod. It's always been playing. Nah, actually, I've been taking a break from cod for a little bit here. I haven't played in like two months. I'm, I'm cleansing. Whoa. Wait for that. Or switch to release. I mentioned, well, because I've been like, my PS5 wasn't hooked up. But yeah, once once called it, he's on switch. It's over for me. That's why I bought a portal just to play modern warfare three in bed. And it's, I've been down the team up with you. I haven't played cod in a while. No, it's, it's fun. But yeah. Well, for those that don't know, I also have a YouTube channel, obviously. I cover a lot of the same stuff that Nate and Andre stew. So Nintendo news, but also I go back some more and reflect on other Nintendo lesser known games, kind of like backlog banter does just in shorter videos. In terms of playing right now. Yeah, no, Tucker and Abe are crazy.  But what I've been playing this week, power world, which we'll talk about a little bit later. Another code wrecked election. I am close to finishing the first game. I played trace memory for the first time on DS last year after they announced the remake. I like the production value and the voice acting and everything. I think this is definitely a better DS game though. A lot of issues with the camera and stuff. Maybe should have stayed on DS personally. So is it actually a remake or is it a remaster or is it kind of, you're not sure? It's a remake dude because well, the DS versions top down. So there's so well. So I mean, I guess the Wii game is probably closer because that was a Wii game, but the DS one's definitely a full remake. Some of the puzzles are completely different too. All right. So at least half the game is remade. And yeah, the other one I imagined is probably more poor, but I haven't gone to that yet. It's fine. Maybe not. I think the Metacritic is appropriate from what I've played. But that's about it. Just for the game though, how do you feel about it? Like, is it good? Is it really good? Do you feel like they improved the game over the past? Should more people be picking this up? It's good. I was saying the production value and updates and that stuff. The game looks nice. I like the way it looks. But I would probably say just played on DS honestly. I think maybe that's just like my visual novel brain. I'm used to playing visual novels on DS, but as much as the updates are nice, I think the DS version, at least for the first game, maybe not for the sequel. But you shouldn't be worrying about this game at all. You need to play Last of Us part one and part two before you play another code. Yeah, you've got your priorities mixed up, my guy. That's the last of us one. Wait until the other guy. Oh man. Just wait until I start talking about what I've been playing lately. Oh man. All right. Oh wait. Maybe I'm excited. All right. We'll see.  Oh, okay. You're really selling it. Yeah. I don't know. I don't know how Jake feels about certain things. So we'll see. Well, what have you been playing lately? Let's hear it. All right. All right. I'll just rob those space here. Is there anything that you wanted to mention about? It's fine. No, that's it. So I haven't played Golden Sun lately. That's kind of sucked me in a bit. I'm done with the world. Completed Monster Hunter World, right? I've actually gone back to Monster Hunter Rise right now. I've been playing with Brandon. So that's been a good time. I actually never finished Rise because I was waiting to play with people. And what happens when you wait for the two to play games you're dependent upon others, right? So but I've been getting back into Rise and so it's been a good time. I actually better now at Monster Hunter Rise because I blissed the world, which is interesting, right?  So I could do this with great sword. I have a question for you, actually, about that. Are you playing Rise on Switch? Yes. So we're originally released. Let me ask my question. So you played World on PlayStation, right? Sure. Don't you think that it takes the game down a lot by not having like being able to directly voice chat with randoms? Like that's one of the few games where like I actually will like link up with randoms and like talk to them like make friends in World and like not having that on Switch kind of sucks. That's an interesting perspective because I'll just tell you straight up. I actually think Monster Hunter Rise is better multiplayer than World. Yeah, but for different reasons though, right? So I'm not saying what you're saying isn't valid. But for me, I don't like talking with Rando's in games, period. So I never even entertained that future, right? So like, yeah, I'll call. So in World, like I will do like the... Also, I like doing the hard mode thing, right? Like so I will only invite other players in. I'll shoot the flare if I want to get things done quickly. But I try to avoid if I want to challenge myself, right? Because it is harder by yourself, right? So I still did it. And so I appreciated that. But what I don't like about Monster Hunter World, even if the voice chat is probably better because yeah, you know, Switch, that is definitely an issue for sure. You don't have multiplayer like in the actual hub area, right? You have to wait until you get into your mission or expedition.  But in Rise, you can experience the entire campaign cooperatively the entire time. There's no waiting for cutscenes or anything like that. You're hanging out with each other in the actual town. And it's just weird that they didn't do that in World. They kind of, I think that impacted, because I actually wanted to play World with my cousin. And whenever I did, it was kind of a frustrating experience like waiting for him to get through a cutscene just like a jump in. And so that kind of took away from me, right? So from that perspective, I think the world, multiplayer is actually better in Rise, but obviously, you know, voice chat, you know, if you're looking for voice chat, definitely. Yeah. That's a loss on Switch. I don't think it's harder in single player. I think it's just grindier. I don't think it's any harder. I'd argue, I mean, I understand what you're saying, but I argue just for it. And it does a pretty good job of that. So in terms of damage scaling, right? Yes. But when it's four versus one, the monster only targets one of you at a time, right? So it gives you more energy. Well, I think it do. I still think it's not as, for whatever reason, I still think it's not really harder in single player. Because I don't know when I'm, I guess I'm basing most on World for that aspect, but also World cannot be that's all I played for like a month. So I did a ton of single player and a ton of multiplayer. I didn't do the same thing for Rise, and it's for that reason where the multiplayer didn't like grab me as much. Yeah. I don't know. I've been playing Rise. I'm trying to decide which game I like more because I think World does a lot of really good things, but Rise is also a newer game, right? So I think they actually, they made a lot of improvements. I would say like mechanics wise, I like Rise overall more, but you know, World did introduce some really cool elements that I do appreciate. So regardless, I'm looking forward to Wild. Like Wild is just going to be insane. Oh, okay. But anyways, beyond Rise and Golden Sun, I saw people talking about over the weekend, and I was like, you know what? It's actually discounted on Steam. And you know, I probably should test out my PC. I have a relatively new graphics card. I have a whole bunch of RAM on here. Let's play something on my PC. My CPU sucks, so that's a little bit of a bottleneck. But yeah, so I downloaded Power World. And yeah, I mean, as Nemo brought up earlier, it's Arc with Pokemon. That's what it is. And some Breath of the Wild movement mechanics. And it's fun. I don't know how much more I'm going to continue to play it. I beat the first boss yesterday. I guess it feels like a lot of busy work, right? And so those kinds of games, I like them initially, but after a certain point, I get to a certain feeling where I'm like, eh, I could be doing yours in real life. Why am I doing it in a video game? And so that's why I eventually stopped playing Animal Crossing. That's why I eventually stopped playing Arc. And that's probably why I'm going to stop playing Power World. However, I haven't played it with friends yet, right? So Bo, let's go, right? Let's talk about it earlier. Like, you know, I'm down. I'm down. It'll probably make me interested for a little bit more, but I don't imagine like finishing Power World. But it is neat, yeah. Do we know how long it is? Like, how many bosses? I have no idea. Because I'm still behind you. I tried the first boss and I got obliterated and I was like, okay, well, I'll come back to this another day. I died once and then I tried again. And I just got like crafted like 114 arrows and all my Pokemon died. Yeah, I'm calling them Pokemon. And I just shot it with a lot of arrows. I did, however, something about Power World that I did notice is kind of interesting is that each pal has their own unique ability. And so you can actually craft certain items to combo with them. And so there's like this fox that has like glowing fire. And so it's actually really cool. I throw out the fox and it kind of lights the way at night. Like if you play Arc, it's pitch black, right? And it's pretty much the same thing in Power World. So you need a torch or something. But if you have a Pokemon that glows on its own, that's kind of neat. But with this fox... It also gets cold at night in Power World. Yeah, that too. So it helps keep you warm as well. But with this fox, you can actually create like a little like carrying case. So you can hold the fox with you and use it like a flamethrower. And so I did that. And that was actually very helpful against the boss. Like I used it and I doubt like a, I don't know, a significant chunk of damage. So there are some things that Power World does that are kind of neat. But it's definitely not Pokemon replacement. It's, I mean, Arc is still Arc, right? And it's definitely not Breath of the Wild. And there's not really much of a narrative to it either. So that's, you know, a whole other element. But yeah, it's fun. It's not, it's not going to win Game of the Year.  It's like, well, I already sold like seven. Yes, they are. Yes, they are. And that's why we're talking about it. Every day we come for a record. Yeah. Yeah. Anyways, I'll say the rest of my thoughts later. But yeah, I've been playing it last couple of days. It's good. All right. Eric, you've been playing lately, bud. You are muted, buddy. I just wanted to catch that earlier. Just playing some tears of the kingdom. Shrine hunting still. I think I got about 10 to 15 shrines left. And then it's late routes. And then, I don't know, just finishing up the quests. So, and then eventually beat the game. Eventually. You know, three years from now. Your time will come. Eventually. Grinding for the light routes is one of my favorite parts of Tears of the Kingdom. It's just exploring down there and putting down seas. Oh, I'm so ejecting. That doesn't feel like a chore to me. No, that's sad. I don't know. That's good to know. I mean, I have a few of them. But yeah, there's, I think, quite a few more. All right. All right. I guess that gets to me. Before I get to my games, I just want to get a couple of these super chats. That's how quick we had, you know, Jake already saw it, but just throwing it out there that Fox, Fox over there, letting Jake know that he's a snack. With the doughnuts and the cookies and the cake. You forgot the muff. Um, wait, wait, I think that is what you forgot. You forgot a blueberry muff right there. I didn't say that you forgot it, Jake. I'm so competitive today. Muff forgot it. Anyway, when you put that muffin in front of the camera, like up close, I could not tell what it was. It did not look like a muffin. Like, it didn't look like a muffin. Because he's been devouring it. I just want to try that out. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm not a muffin. He is wrecking it. Then Aaron Rass wanted to come in just to let us know that it's his actual birthday today, buddy. And he just wanted to, I just wanted to help me celebrate it. He's excited for some extra this year. And some Metroid Prime 4 news. Oh, yeah. Hell yeah, man. Yeah. Happy birthday to you. Happy birthday to you. Happy birthday to you. Happy birthday to you. Happy birthday to you. Happy birthday to you. Yeah. Yeah, I'll do a stop for your birthday, man. Happy birthday to you. I love seeing you here every week. I hope you have. I hope you had an awesome day.  All right. Well, that is the thing. All right. That's a nice thing. And that's what you're into. I hope you're into another person. Sorry. I really hope you don't accidentally say that to like a 12-year-old when you say that. I'll do that on my job interview to my morning. No, no, no, no. I said I really hope you don't. I can confirm that. Oh, okay. Yeah, me too. Yeah. Yeah. I just want to let you say that. I wouldn't even, like, risky to be a problem. Yeah. I don't know, dude, I'm now suspicious of you. Oh, okay. Because, like, do you really mean that you don't want it to happen?  You know what I mean?  I still think I don't want you to arrest me. No, man, I'm actually just saying, like, you shouldn't have said that. Okay. Yeah, sorry. Wait, Aaron, did you like that? Did you like my well wishes? I think you like that. That's crazy. Here's the birthday boy. I want to know what he says. See, Jake walks his fine line between being a creeper and being this really cool guy everyone likes. You just go back to the 90s. He jumped from, he jumped ropes that line. All right, well, I love you, bro. I love everyone in this chat. That's why I feel comfortable being myself. You're fine. Aaron Raphs is over 18, can confirm. But still, I have to bullet on that one. Um, so what have I been playing lately? Let's see. Age of Empires 4? I just forever, that's just a forever play game. I love Age of Empires. And they did a really good job with the fourth one. It is Ageless. What? It's Ageless. I mean, all of them are, whether you play one, two, or three, because now they have one on HD, so it's great. And I have Game Pass, although I own all those ones. Then, I've downloaded Power World. So, I've begun my journey. I haven't got to the first boss yet, but. What did you play it on though? Xbox. I ain't paying for it. Yeah, that's what I'm playing too. Yeah, I just heard that it doesn't run well on Xbox. No, it doesn't. No, it doesn't. No, no, it does not.  It was like a brown smear. Oh, it sounds like Pokemon. Yeah, I was gonna be like, you know, as it doesn't bother me, I play Switch games, right? It literally does not bother me at all. It looks a lot better on PC though. I see PC footage, I'm like, oh, that's what the game's supposed to look like. Oh, it actually has reasonably solid art direction, not like mush playing on Xbox series. Yeah, I'm playing it on medium settings.  It's 60 FPS. My CPU's like I had 100. When both are open at the same time. But it looks like it's an unoptimized game. But that's all right, because one thing that people don't say, like keep talking about power, it's an unfinished video game. Yeah, it is. It's literally like it's an early access game. It's not a complete video game. And on their schedule, they have the Xbox version. It's kind of like, oh, why are we celebrating Baldur's Gate 3 coming out last year? It was an early access for two plus years. People have been playing it for years. Are we seriously going to be talking about Power World in 2026 for Game of the Year? Yeah, probably, because that's when it will have its official release. I'm going to be pissed. Hey, PubG, we won't qualify for anything this year because it's technically not released. Bro, if Power World wins Game of the Year over Star Fox Universe, I am going to be pissed in 2026. It's going to win some. I don't know if it's going Game of the Year. It'll win something. It'll win something. Best Indie Game. Best Pokemon game. Oh, geez. Who won Best Family Game? No, that Game Wars are going to add a new genre. Then it's going to be called the monster catching genre, right? And that's the Year of the Power World. I don't do it every year. Yeah. And because Pokemon technically also a GRPG, it's just not even going to be nominated. The most expensive lawsuit is the award. It's the most likely to win. We'll get into that later. We'll get into that later. Could we actually have some little bit of news on that stuff, including the actual person who used to be the head lawyer for Pokemon talking about it. So he kind of knows a little bit about how Pokemon reacts to this kind of thing. The Pokemon Company. Well, we'll see. We'll see. I guess this is time to get into our first topic. And this first one is kind of a bittersweet. It's a little reflection time because Nintendo has announced the closing date for their online play and online services for the Wii U and 3DS. They are going to be closing up shop on all their services. You still have like another month and a half if you somehow for some reason still have currency on their shop to convert it over to your Nintendo account. I don't know why you wouldn't have done that already because they pretty much shut down the online shop a long time ago. But whatever, maybe for some reason you still have currency. Is it just 3DS or was DS games still have online functionality? And it's just shutting that down too.  That's already shut down. DS games haven't had online functionality for a long time, I'm pretty sure. That's not shut down right now. That's 24. So we're going to shut this down. April 8th. The Dragon Quest 7 and 8, the remakes, those have online functionality, right? I'm pretty sure there's some walk behind it. So that's like a month and a half. Sorry, that's where my mind goes. Continue. No, it's okay. Yeah. So they're being shut down on April 8th. Obviously we all know that people will run homebrew and keep private online servers going for the games that have enough players. That's fine. It's actually kind of nice to know that some games are kept going by fans in that way. So basically, we just get into what our fondest memories of these platforms are and maybe our favorite games that were on them. And then we have kind of a little bonus question to ask towards the end. I won't worry about the switch topics. Oh, who wants to go first? Got any good memories of these platforms? Wii U, 3DS, games? Oh, Xenoblade Chronicles X. Still only a Wii U game. Still only a Wii U game I haven't played. Cheers there. I'm waiting. You mean the best excuses? I'm waiting.  I refuse to play it. I mean, I think we're getting started from Molotov by 2025. So yeah, maybe that. But also, maybe it's their new IP. I don't know. Yeah. But hey, maybe watch Backlog Ventures predicting the next generation of Nintendo games. If you want to find out what's coming out. Maybe I just told you what I was going to send over to you. I don't know. Or maybe I should change my thing, Ben, because I don't want to have anything and anyone else is doing. But yeah, Xenoblade X is such a good game. Like 100 games. It's probably one of the ones we're predicting. Damn, I'm going to predict like three then. Can I? Anyway, yeah, no, Xenoblade X, I think it's, to me, it's like the best Wii U game even though Breath of the Wild exists because to me, Breath of the Wild is a Switch game just because that's what I played it on. But Xenoblade X is optimized for the Wii U, right? Like it does have the gamepad features. And what's kind of crazy, Xenoblade X is the largest Nintendo game as far as I'm aware. Like you had to, you mostly had to buy an external hard drive just to play this game. That's how crazy it is.  And what's cool about Xenoblade X, you can play the game for about 20 hours and it kind of feels like an open world Xenoblade game, which is what it is. But at that point about the, around the 20-ish hour mark for most people, you will unlock Skells. Which are basically Gundams, mobile suits. And so you jump into these Skells, right? And so the world is like massive. And when you jump into these Skells, the world is still massive, but all of a sudden you're far larger and you can fly literally everywhere. Like there are floating items you can never reach before. You can travel so much quicker. And also it changes into a giant motorcycle Gundam at the same time. Like so like it's just like really cool. It feels different than other Xenoblade games. It has some online multiplayer features but very subtle passive ones. It's an amazing game. So like when I redownloaded it for my Wii U the other day because I actually made a video about Xenoblade Chronicles X Definitive Edition happening in the not so distant future. So I played it for research and to kind of get footage. All that nostalgia came back to me. It's an incredible game, but it's a pain in the butt to play because not only do you have to have a Wii U, you have to have an external hard drive and then you have to download it on there. And that may not even be possible anymore for most people. Almost you already had it, yeah. Yeah, exactly. Like I redownloaded it because I already owned it. But yeah, exactly. So it's tough. Yeah, but it's such a good game. I remember getting Xenoblade Chronicles X for Christmas in 2015 and just being amazed by the scale of the world because I was keeping up with basically everything on Wii U through the end of the system's life. But there was nothing like stepping out into Xenoblade Chronicles X as a world. And I still maintain not only is it huge, but I think it has the best art direction in the series. I'm a very casual kind of fan of Xenoblade, but the one that came the closest to fully hooking me with X. I think the X is awesome. When people play it, I think that they'll agree with me that it's among the best. But Andres, I'm glad you brought up that game for this conversation because I think that 2015 for the Wii U in particular is often overlooked because I actually think it might be the best year for the system. Oh, yeah. People always go to 2014. And 2014 obviously had Smash and Mario Kart and the actual crown jeweled Donkey Kong Country Tropical Freeze. But 2015 I think had the games that best exemplified the system and the ones that are actually going to suffer the most from this imminent shutdown. And Splatoon is the obvious one for me. I mean, Splatoon that summer was all I played with one of my really close friends. I just was changing schools and we were saying in touch with Splatoon. And that I think is the game that best realized Nintendo's philosophy of that generation of this big interconnected playground of Nintendo fans. Getting into the lobbies and seeing people's artwork on the walls and actually using the game pattern really unique ways for multiplayer. I think it exemplifies the system spirit so well. And losing that would be a major bummer just because I think in some ways it still plays the best of the three Splatoon games even though I think they do get better on the whole overall. There's a very particular spirit about how Splatoon synchronized with what Nintendo is trying to do with Wii U that I don't think ever be captured again in the same way. I do want to just say, by the way, I wrote a piece last year and I interviewed a group called the Pretendo Network.  But this is a really cool group of fans right now they're making this thing called the Pretendo Network that basically replaces at like a system level the Nintendo Network. It allows not only for you to get back online in these games but also for Pretendo Network like hosts the guys who run this service to hold Splat Fest again and do a lot of really cool shit and they're working on trying to bring the shop back up too. For what purpose I'm not entirely sure but they're trying to bring back that spirit which I think is good because I don't think the Wii U can properly exist and you can't properly appreciate the Wii U unless you can sort of get back into that 2015 moment of seeing the Miiverse messages and the Inklings and playing online. That was peak Wii U. I think that was the best time I had with the system. No, for sure. You're going to make a great effort too. Well, yeah exactly, great. It's a great one. All 2015 games. It's cool that you guys brought that up. Nice, yeah. Wes, you got any fond memories? So the Wii U obviously was a console. I was joking.  No, I don't hate the Wii U. I think that what they did with Virtual Console at the end of the life cycle was really solid. I bought this machine expecting a new Zelda game. Didn't get that new Zelda game until the Nintendo Switch. But then one of the highlights was Wind Waker HD. Like that game was phenomenal. We love Wind Waker HD. I'd say the other highlight is probably Super Mario Maker. Like that's about it. Maybe 3D World as well. But yeah, that's about it. It was a console, I guess. It was a console. No 3DS memories for you? I mean, 3DS, like, I got my age shop now. So whenever I want to play it, I can play one.  It was one. I'll go through the two. Beau walked me through hacking my 3DS. It's very easy. Yeah. Dude, plus you can play all the Pokemon ROM hacks. Yeah.  I hate to be monopolizing this section, but I just love Wii U and 3DS. I'll give you some 3DS memories too.  And I kind of had this rotation of games. I would basically, I was basically going between Animal Crossing New Leaf into Tomodachi Life, into Fire Emblem Awakening, and just kind of playing those on a circuit. I love those games. I mean, I actually think 3DS is peak.  We need a new one. I love Tomodachi Life. I think it's one of the top five or 10 games in the system very, very easily. Easily. Yeah, I agree. Yeah. For sure. And I do hope it comes back. I don't know if it will, but that's one of those games that I think would, it's such a, it is a viral hit. It was just on the wrong platform, I think. But that little rotation of games. 3DS was a better platform than the Wii U. You think so? I, in a lot of ways, sure, yeah. Yeah, I kind of agree with that.  I mean, that just, I think 3DS had a lot more on the 3DS. I'm not saying objectively, 3DS is better than the Wii U in every way, but I'm saying like in terms of what's better for a game in terms of sales, it's probably to come out on the 3DS. Oh, absolutely, of course. I mean, the 3DS outsold Wii U like seven or eight to one. So yeah. What do we prefer more? Street Pass or Miiverse? Street Pass. I love Street Pass. Miiverse. I mean, Street Pass is, for me, the core memories of that era are playing Smash 4 on Wii U was kind of like really all I cared to play on there. But 3DS was, I mean, I was everything to me. I would always bring my 3DS with me everywhere I went. And of course, waiting for that green light and then going to the puzzles and getting the puzzle pieces and seeing those fill out. And it just felt so cohesive because every game felt like a connect to that in some way. Of course, Smash 3DS having Street Smash, that was fun to be able to just like play a little sort of Beyblade-style game on there. But it was really Pokemon for me that dominated the 3DS. And each of those games felt like such an event to me. My first time seeing and holding the 3DS was someone playing X and Y and just seeing riding around on roller skates and the 3D environments and going through that Santa Luna Forest which is the first forest in X and Y. And the Pokemon art being like 3D you can go in the back and go to these shops and customize your characters. I think X and Y get overlooked so much in the legacy of Pokemon, but there are so much there in terms of the culture and locations of Callows, the art direction characters I think are so much fun. And then when that became my thing and I got a living dex in Generation 6, going to the town where they have the long road along the, right by the- The daycare. The daycare, yeah. And just riding on my bike back and forth and back and forth to hatch all the eggs and get a complete living dex. What's funny is I couldn't disagree with you more. I think that X and Y were the start of the downfall of Pokemon. Oh, sure. I mean, I'm not gonna say that I'm sorry. I'm saying, yeah, they peaked. Like, they got better and better and then Diamond and Pearl was kind of a dip, but then Platinum came out. That was good. Black and white. They kept going up and up. Black and white too. And then X and Y was worse than that. Then the Omega Ruby and Sapphire, those were actually pretty good, but then Sun and Moon was worse than that. Ultra Sun and Moon was worse than that. Sword and Shield was worse than that. And then I think they picked it back up with Scarlet and Violet, but I think like X and Y were the start of the downfall. Of Pokemon as a series. When it used to be like top tier, X and Y was like the first one where fans started to complain. This is too easy. Like, game feels incomplete. Where was Pokemon Z? That train in the eastern side of Kalos. It was like, where does it go? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Right? There's a lot of questions I can say. You can find the cells. They put that into Sun and Moon. That was totally gonna be four. Of course. Absolutely. The lab that was just off into, yeah, there's definitely like things in there. But I'll, it's not that I disagree with you, but I do want to offer a little bit of counter-argument because I feel like from a competitive multiplayer standpoint, X and Y picked it up. You know, going into 3D, it was a bit more, there's a bit more theater to it, right? And then also introducing the Vega. Well, I think the competitive has gotten better with every game. It's just so few percentage of the whole thing. But story-wise, like does that. As a single-player campaign, I definitely see where you're coming from, though, for sure. It's what appeals to most people, though, right? Like that's the bigger body of Pokemon. And I'm a competitive player, too. So I mean, I do love that. And like, yeah, I don't know. But yeah, not to like trash, not to be like your opinion is trash. I just thought I'd offer more. No, no, I absolutely recognize incredibly unpopular opinion. But it's both 3DS generations of Pokemon games are my absolute favorite. Jake's opinions are all trash. So both are games. I already recognized that. No, I'll trash Jake all day. It's all right. He's still waiting for... He's in the Bucks jersey, and he's not razzing me yet while the Tatum jersey comes over. Do not trash his opinion. He's on our side. You know what's going to be funny? The Tatum jersey will probably be here when we have the podcast on Valentine's Day that you just missed. Oh, dang. Why can't we just do the podcast Tuesday or Thursday? I have a life. Yeah. Wouldn't you want to be with your fiance on Valentine's Day? That's the point.  So you're going to tell Amazon to give my fiance off?  She doesn't need to work today. So let me get this straight. You're not going to be streaming on Tuesday or Thursday. You're not going to be live streaming either of those days. She works also on Tuesday and Thursday. I will be streaming on Tuesdays and Thursdays. So are you going to be live streaming or not? So if you're already going to be live streaming Tuesday and Thursday... What if I already have guests scheduled for a certain day? This is the only day you'll have guests.  It's like, yeah, it's like it's the first show he's ever missed. It's weird. Strange. All right. All right. Strange. I don't know just how many scheduled people can make. Everyone in your chat is going to be getting laid too. You're going to get like half the viewers. Come on. You'd be actually surprised. My Valentine's streams are actually going to be bigger because it's a holiday stream. It's kind of sad in a way. Or people just have a life and they do it during the day. They don't have to always get them on at night. You know what I mean? Okay. What am I saying? If you say maybe it's because I have a life. That's why I can't be here. Well, see, here's the thing. You don't have...  See, I don't have that kind of life. I have a schedule. I have children. I have things I have to do. I need to share something. Maybe... Sorry, go ahead. I'm going to post it in the...  So he's like, why can't we do it on those days? Schedules. My schedule. I want to talk about me first. I just think this is hilarious. We know you do. I'm busy on the 14th. I do love you, Jake, though.  Just put the talk on stream for a moment. It's brief. It's brief. Just brief. Oh boy. You're literally breaking cardinal rule number one on my channel right now. What is cardinal rule? Show Twitter? Anything that involves political figures. It's not political, though. But it's not actually political. He's just like... Nintendo, someone's whispering is here. Another billion people have purchased Power World. All right. I just took a screenshot of that. This is... Uh-oh. Uh-oh. I didn't find Bob. Yes. Moving on. Botox games. Do you got any fond memories we use 3DS? Yeah, absolutely. I mean... Oh, just go like 3DS? Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Yeah.  No. Hey, 2DS... I get so many comments from people being like, dude, actually this is a 3DS game. Not a 2DS. I love that thing. I use it for doorstops all the time. Oh, the wedge. Yeah, I have the Mario Maker one right back there. Yeah, we got those belts. We got the Zelda wedge around here somewhere. Yeah, probably under the door.  So pretty much all my teen years were spent with the Wii U and 3DS, which is when I spent most of my time gaming. The 3DS in particular is really important to me. I actually met my best friend and current roommate through Mario Kart 7. So that's fun. That's a fun story to tell. We met on a form when I was 11 years old. So it has like actual life significance. And he was 36. Surprisingly not. Surprisingly not. Could have been, could have went very poorly. But yeah, I think the 3DS has a really fantastic library. Pokemon. Tucker was talking about. I love X and Y. I think that either that or Black Ops 2 is my most played game of all time. It's one of those two games. I can't remember which one exactly. I know they're both up there in terms of play time. Black Ops 2 on. Andres, you might like this. I played it on Wii U. That's where you play it. Black Ops 2 on Wii U was actually technically better for a little bit because there was no hackers. Because I remember I tried playing it on PS3 in like maybe 2016 and it was just you couldn't play it. But Wii U, people weren't. Also having the two screens. People weren't running them up. You could play co-op in zombies with two separate screens. Yeah, it was awesome. Yeah, but. That is kind of sick. Yeah, I think the 3DS. In zombie U. I never played zombie U. Zombie U is so good on Wii U. It was just interesting. No ported trash. Oh, zombie. Oh, yeah. Because you need the gamepad to make it really good. I did it around the gamepad. It's a horror game, a horror zombie game. And the gamepad adds so much like environment to it because you're sitting there trying to hack a door or something. And because just like you would be in real life, you're focusing on the door.  Versus like when they ported it over, it's just all on screen and you can see everything. And it's just not as scary because you already know what's going to happen. It's like playing Red Steel without motion controls.  Red Steel 2 is good. Red Steel 2 is good. Well, yeah, both. I meant that. But yeah, Red Steel 2 is definitely better. The Red Steel 1 had some tracking issues with the controls. But yeah. But I imagine playing Red Steel 2 without pointer or motion controls. Yeah, it would be very. Yeah, dude. They actually did that. I imagine they covered board without motion controls.  One of my biggest like what ifs is like Zelda Breath of the Wild for Wii U. You know how like in Breath of the Wild, there's so many menus that you pull up. Apparently like in the that was originally a Wii U game. The Switch version was just a port. And apparently like all that menu stuff was on the gamepad. So you never had to like actually like go into different stuff and like do everything. And apparently it was so much more fun that Nintendo made them take it out of the Wii U game because they didn't want the Wii U version to be the best version. So they made it identical to the Switch version. Even though like the Wii U version does run worse. It was like that part of it was better. Yeah, like like the Breath of the Wild on Switch was 900p versus the 720 on the Wii U. And it had technically better sound quality. But yeah, I mean those are subtle differences. Right. And so people would have been like, oh, but I can do all this gamepad stuff. Right. Yeah, yeah. But also another thing that they did do was my this is my memory. My favorite Wii U game for Wii U was Shimagami Tensei, Sharp FE, which was Fire Emblem and Persona teams combined to make a crossover. And it was awesome. And the coolest part was the gamepad was your character's cell phone. Because you know how like Fire Emblem doesn't really have it. But they did in three houses and Persona always has it. Where you have like social links and like you text characters on your phone. But in this game, the gamepad was your phone. So like you would be playing the game on the screen or whatever. And then like you'd feel it vibrate and you're getting a text message that you can only see by looking down at your gamepad and like going through and who you're texting. And it was so cool and immersive. Yes. And I'm like, this is the one Wii U game they will never port to Switch. And of course they did port it. Yes. And I bought it. And it was so much worse. Yeah. It was designed for the gamepad. Yeah. Yeah. Because that made it so much more fun than what the game was just by itself. It's still a good game either way, by the way. If you guys have never played it, you should just play it. But that's the way to think of it. I got like halfway through. It's a really fun game. Yeah. But anyways, that's mine. Kitty Chris Uprising. I understood. Go Fox 3D. Go Fox 3D. Go Fox 3D. Go Fox 3D. Go Fox 3D. Go Fox 3D. Go Fox 3D. Go Fox 3D. Go Fox 3D. Go Fox 3D. Go Fox 3D. Go Fox 3D. Go Fox 3D. Go Fox 3D. Go Fox 4D. Go Fox 3D. Go Fox 4D. Yeah. And 10 YPs. Just one more. Yeah. It's a good one. I think between worlds. 3D land is actually extremely good. 3D land to me. Yeah. So here's the issue with 3D worlds. 3D world is a really good game. But we expected something else. And still, it's going to disappoint. I'm holding no ink copies now. Really? Perhaps by any of the shows. Throw the meme. Throw the meme. Point of the live. Yeah. Yeah, I could, but then they'll be upset. Andres, I got a question for you about that, which one I got a question for you about this whole this whole 3D world wasn't what we wanted situation because I agree with you at the time. Yeah. However, do you think that the existence of Odyssey has, in your opinion, retrospectively made 3D world a better game? Because I know it has for a lot of people. Yes. Yeah. The answer is yes. So I mean, it's kind of like Metro Prime Federation Force, for example, that Federation Force is a better game when we know Metro Prime Force around the corner and we have Metroid Dread, right? So to announce like Federation Force, like, like Switchport, I'd be all about it. Like that would be good. Have you put it because it was always a good game? It was never a bad game. I think it was at the point, though. No, I get the point. The people's opinions change because more Metro games came out or got announced. I understand that.  It makes the thing we are getting. Can you tell me a Zelda spin-off? Nate, I'm with you on that. Or a Zelda spin-off or maybe a top-down Zelda that you'd like, but you would prefer to play a 3D Zelda instead. A top-down Zelda that I like. Yeah. You're in the mood for a Zelda. You don't want to play a 3D Zelda. What are you talking about? I'm terrified.  That's all I want you to do. Just give me one, for example. Try Force Heroes. Try Force Heroes, right? Now imagine Nintendo had never announced Breath of the Wild and we only got Try Force Heroes. That was, then that was for Switch. Okay. And we get Zelda. We get Zelda games way more frequently than we get Metroid. So that's not even a problem. So literally imagine Tears of the Kingdom didn't exist, Breath of the Wild didn't exist, and all we got was Try Force Heroes on Switch. But there'll be other games besides Zelda. There wouldn't be any other Zelda games. So I don't just play Zelda. So I'm not trying to say that I understand you're weird. The point is that fans... I'm weird. Like, we had Other M on Wii. Like, we had a Metro, a recent Metroid game at the time that Federation Force was announced. It wasn't like Other M was like 10 years prior. It was a six-year difference, though. That's pretty big. Other M came out. Yeah, that's not... We had a six-year difference for Zelda games. I don't... What's the problem? But there's also things in between. Anyways. There was just remakes. There wasn't anything new in between. We're gonna save them. I don't... Listen, I'm saving my argument muscles for later, okay? I know you are. You're the one that brought it up. I'm like, you're not gonna get me on this. I love top-down Zelda. They can just keep giving me more of that. I'm giving that to you. Right, but if you never got 3D Zelda, you would be disappointed. So, moving on. Half of my content is top-down Zelda's. Why would I be disappointed? Oh, no, you're making a point in a weird way. Yeah, I am. Let me give maybe a more clear example. I think the great example is Pikmin. Pikmin is a great example to me because we went a long time, obviously, post Pikmin 3 until Pikmin 4. I'm a massive Pikmin fan. Sure. Pikmin Bloom, for instance, especially by the time of Pikmin Bloom, right? I was very, very antsy because we're post 3 Deluxe now. I'm ready for 4. I'm... I would have made you am or antsy. That's a good example too, but I just completely skipped Hey Pikmin to be honest. Good game. Good game. But I think that the importance of what Andres is saying is that especially in the Nintendo community, when we're so tapped into these franchises in their life and we all have our favorite iterations of them and we're anticipating something like a Pikmin 4 or a Metroid Prime 4 for so long. When we get something different, it doesn't feel right. No matter how good the game is, I think that there's two parallel tracks you can walk down. One is the quality of the game by itself, but the other, which is always necessary, I think is the context of the release. And I do think that when these contexts change, we end up with a situation like 3D World where I think a lot of people are more positive on that game now than definitely when they were back in the day. And I know that that is a sentiment and I understand there's a lot of people that feel that way. I just don't understand why they feel that way with franchises that keep getting games. So we don't have a shortage of Mario. No, that's a good one. It's 2, 3D Mario games on Wii. Like we literally had Galaxy and Galaxy 2. Yeah. It was like two years later that we got 3D. Yeah, I want to speak a little bit more on that. I would rather they've saved their best 3D efforts for a system that sells well. But in 2013, we were so far from seeing it. So like more 3D land just felt like a good thing to me. So I just want to kind of add more to this, right? So like I loved 3D world. I literally beat everything in the game. I did every I 100% right.  Yeah, like you just enjoy it more after Odyssey came out. It's a I and so I'm speaking in a generalization, right? Yeah. And I'm putting things in the context here. I Nintendo put out something like Mario Odyssey in that first year of Wii U instead of 3D world. It probably would have sold more systems 3D world 3D world isn't like a big open world game. And as we've seen throughout the switch era, big open world games, what do they do? They break records, right? And so there's a correlation there. And listen, I know you don't feel that way, but you've already acknowledged that sentiment existed. We're talking about the masses. We're not talking about individual opinions here. We're talking about how the general masses feel about these things. And so Federation Force was not actually talking about the general masses. Are you just talking about super hardcore fans of individual IPs? Because the general masses don't overthink things like this. Okay. The general masses just play games and play them. First of all, Federation Force didn't do well. Pikmin Bloom didn't do that well for a mobile game. 3D land, I mean 3D world was the big Mario driver Wii U. Well, Federation Force was a first. No, I know, I know. Metroid sells relatively well compared to other niche Nintendo franchises. Right. It's not a Zelda or Mario for sure, right? But Federation Force was a floppy. I'm going to actually push back on your 3D world things. You were talking about sales for a moment. It literally sold almost half as many games as systems existed. It was the premier title in that first year of Wii U and Wii U had a disaster. No, it wasn't. It was new Super Mario Brothers U was the premiere. No, I said of Wii U. That's what launched the system. No, that's that's the day one launch. I'm talking about the big three was the next game after it in year one. The next big game from Nintendo. I think that Andres is right in the sense that 3D world was the first major post launch game for Wii U. That was that was supposed to be here is the first huge moment for the system and what we actually got was ostensibly in design philosophy a sequel to the 3DS game. And if we remember back to this period of Nintendo history, we're looking at a system in the Wii U that was lacking a lot of identity. It was lacking a coherent vision of its own because a lot of the games we're getting we're getting we fit you and we're getting we sports club and people like party you.  I think the problem with 3D world at the time is that it didn't help give the Wii U an identity. When you think about GameCube, sunshine is synonymous with GameCube Galaxy is synonymous with Wii and you can make the same argument for 3D world. But it's so similar to a 3DS title that I just don't think that it was that big showstopping game the system needed and I by it was kind of too late frankly already by the by the holiday of 2013 3DS sales never recovered. They tried their best with Mario Kart 8 and Smash Brothers and when that yeah, sorry. Yeah, when that didn't recover things for Wii U. It was we were already fucked but I think that I think that 3D world at the time was the first indication of the fact that Nintendo strategy tried to get out of the hole they were in was let's make home console iterations of 3DS games. Even Mario Kart 8 and Smash. Yeah, Mario Kart and Smash Brothers are either like parallel versions to a 3DS game or incredibly iterative sequels of 3DS. Yeah.  Like I don't think having a Mario Odyssey and holiday of 2013 would have changed the trajectory of the fact that we went nine months within a brand new game on Wii U. It was definitely I think it would have made a difference. I think it would have made more of a difference.  It was marketed horribly. People wouldn't know what the games were because it would have been Wii U commercials getting hundreds of thousands of views instead of Wii commercials that were getting millions like it just yeah. I don't think it would have made any difference. It would have made a difference for hardcore fans with the hardcore fans were the ones that bought Wii U in the first place. There's two different conversations we're having because one is about commercial success and 3D Mario's always had sold. Yeah. I'm glad Odyssey didn't get set to Wii U to die. But I think it's I think it's a while was never on switch. They left it on. Yeah. Now you know how I feel about the only Chronicles X. Yeah.  I don't know why maybe switch. Let Eber continue his point. He's yeah. The reality is that a 3D Mario has never outsold a 2D Mario on his respective system and it probably won't ever switch. Did it well right. Sorry. Yeah. One don't know this exception did 25 plus that's an exception. But but if we're looking historically it's always been 2D Mario on top. So Nate I think you're right in that the systems we would be in a totally different world if if if we got a proper 3D exploratory Mario that holiday season I think that like actually Mario maker earlier in the system's life would have done more good for it frankly but I think that the reality is that we're however many dudes sitting in a podcast at like 10 p.m. Talking about Nintendo so for the parameters of our life in the community in the chat we have I think that there's no doubt that the we use fortunes in our community in our space would be very different and it would have been thought about very differently. If so many of the marquee games didn't feel so iterative on 3DS I think that that's a major issue in the we use reputation. Yeah, tell him. That's fine. It's been. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. Here's the thing. I think every single Wii U exclusive game except Devil's 3rd is a banger. So I the reputation of we use literally amazing to me. So I don't know. Yeah, I love we imagine that being better. I'm like how all the games rock. Okay. It's fascinating era to look back at. Yeah, I mean it was clear though that you know you look at the games right. Wait, now one worker and Twilight Princess HG to leave the system. Yeah, but the point I was going to make is that it was clear that Nintendo was still adjusting to hg development. We backwards compatibility. Yeah, or are you going to say. I was going to say that since okay. Yeah, I'll agree. Most Wii U games are better than the 3DS counterparts. You have like returns 3D tropical freeze. You have 3D World 3 land tropical for Mario Kart 8 Mario Kart 7 the difference is the 3DS was a cheaper handheld and had Pokemon holiday 2013. You can buy Pokemon X and Y in 3D land or you can just get 3D World 3D lands the worst game but any consumer was going to pick the one that had Pokemon on it and the one that was cheaper. It doesn't matter that 3D land is the worst game. There it was cheaper. So no matter what your consumer or parents will look at the 3DS line at that point for their kids and just think well, I don't as a parent doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. I don't examine lineups when I'm buying things for my kids. You don't examine what? I don't think most parents look at overall game lineups when they're buying things for the kids. Most parents look at price then they look at price and that doesn't matter them. Yeah, but also to both point like more kids would have asked for Pokemon that holiday season as opposed to 3D land or sorry 3D World. But I think it's it's fascinating to look back on because when you talk about it in conversation of oh a lot of Wii U and 3DS exclusives are very similar to one another. That's kind of the only time that's ever really happened. I mean you look back at Wii and DS the Zelda games that release on those systems. The Mario the games that release on those systems nothing alike. And so we and 3DS where they're trying to have more like brand synergy and the me's are together and that kind of stuff and in the games are more similar. I think it ended up like stepping on each other's toes until Mario game on we again. Oh, yeah. New super way. Yeah. But obviously Galaxy the one that people associate with the console. But it's just where people associate with it. The hardcore Nintendo fans that buy every system. So like they're not the ones that we're worried about. They don't want Wii U. They showed up to Wii U. I just want to make mentioned that you know just looking at how much copies of a game soul doesn't tell the whole story. Right. Because I think most people here will agree right that a Mario Galaxy is more of a system seller than a Mario Bros Wii right. People who already have a Wii are more likely to buy Mario Bros Wii. It was like a pretty big system seller to me. Yeah, I think you're both right to a certain degree. It's just depends on like it's over a million units. It's sold to like 30% of the Wii's audience. That's like saying we sports wasn't a system seller. I think a million copies in this case a little different. Yes. This pack. We sports it provides a unique experience that the Wii offers. Sure. That's that's the point when we talk about games like Mario Galaxy or Mario Odyssey or Breath of the Wild. These are offering experiences you can't get elsewhere. Another 2D Mario game is another 2D Mario game, especially when it came out. I'm going to stop you there. If we couldn't get Mario Galaxy elsewhere, then it wouldn't be able to be ported to other systems. No, I'm not sure. I apologize. You're not able Mario Galaxy to exist. It did not enable that game to exist. That game could have literally meant a game cube if they wanted. They just didn't. I think we're getting a little lost in the point because I think that in the specific example of Mario. Andres, I think, unfortunately, the it is true that New Super Mario Brothers Wii was a system seller, especially because that's the game that was bundled with a lot of Wii's in that holiday season. The red was crazy when that game came out. So okay, but I can see this right like Mario. I'm not saying Mario Bros. We didn't sell systems, but what I'm trying to say is it not every get it like it's not sometimes there are certain games that are important because they get people to buy a system and even if it doesn't sell necessarily as much that doesn't mean it was less valuable in pushing system because there are some games you just buy because on the system you don't buy this the other way around. Sometimes my grander point here because like we obviously we're getting the sales data and I'll talk about we which wasn't really the point of this topic. You could already a massively well selling system long before Mario Galaxy hit long before that game came out. We was already a massive hit like it didn't need Galaxy to be a hit. That was my whole point of saying if Odyssey was on Wii U, I wouldn't have changed anything. Wii U was already failing long before the game came out. It was a single game changes the trajectory right but they're all my point though like it we didn't sell better because Galaxy existed on it. We was already literally sold on heart. Let's let's go back to why I went on this tangent though right. It's just kind of like I do kind of feel like Federation forces a little tone deaf right. I do think 3D world was a little tone deaf. There were Nintendo could have made different decisions with some of these games that would have helped. They alone don't change everything right. But if you if they had if they were more savvy with most of their design choices for a lot of their games that we might have had a better life. I think the only way to have a better life and because we got to remember the Wii was lightning in a bottle and it was lightning in a bottle because it grabbed an audience that wasn't your hardcore Nintendo fans. It grabbed the casual audience that likes we fit likes we sports likes the side scrolling Mario's a very casual Blue Ocean strategy that is now your everyday Nintendo consumer. It reached it was great. Yeah. And that led to we being great. But if you look at all their console sales before that 64 GameCube and Wii U they all kind of had the same consistent problem. They only appealed to one very specific audience and Nintendo had a very hard time supporting that while also supporting their handheld and their handheld systems conjunctually next to them we're selling so much more than their home consoles were during those same time periods. They were really putting a lot of their development efforts over those years into their handhelds that we're selling significantly better and carrying the company. So I kind of think it's one of those nothing was going to save Wii U except exactly what happened with switch stops having two systems. Yeah. It's interesting at next point about missing the two systems or not. Yeah. I because I did my homework. I read the little little you know the little run a show and I think I think you're right because ultimately the problem with Wii U and the reason I think you are both right to various extent but I do side with Andres on the whole is that the problem that generation is that Nintendo is walking so parallel with the software of 3ds and Wii U that if you just you if you wanted a 3d stage based Mario game you just went bought a 3ds and played 3d land that Nintendo did not make the value proposition for Wii U very good and that did start at the beginning you're totally right Nate when as soon as the name of the Wii U as soon as the first E3 press event was about the gamepad opposed the actual system it was basically over people didn't understand what it was Nintendo miscalculated the ocean market 3 with Nintendo which was not a very good game to show the system. No I just want to remind you guys that Zelda Tech demo that was not a game at all. Right. I drove more hype than anything else and then the problem becomes not only do you do that but you release games that lack a central identity to that particular system at 3d world has a great is emblematic of the identity of Nintendo at the time but I think Andres is totally right that I think the Wii U would have been an easier product to understand if more of its games were. Distinct and I think the latch happened in 2015 and then 2016 that's why I think 2015 may be the best year of the system because Splatoon and Super Mario maker are just games that only exist because of the unique affordances of Wii U and don't talk to me about Mario maker 3ds it's worse and it doesn't matter so I think that on telling me about neighbor and yes it just shouldn't exist. Oh great I want to say one thing about me verse and I promise I'll talk about these systems. I talked to Kit and Krista last year about me verse and they were talking to me about this really interesting phenomenon with the Nintendo at the time when they didn't really know what was going on the way that me verse was adopted by the community for all of these memes and all this in joke and everything it flew over a lot of people's heads with the Nintendo and they are saying to me that like they would often have to explain to senior members of Nintendo what the fuck was going on in the service and so I think that that is both to the benefit and detriment of Wii U they were talking about like when they are marketing Splatoon they could just do whatever the fuck they wanted because all bets are off we had lost just go have fun and make a cool product and make a cool moment for Nintendo fans and they did and so I think that's part of what's interesting about Wii U ultimately there are these little moments like me verse like Splatoon that were not in the footsteps of either we or 3ds they were very distinct and they are very risky and I think they both paid off I love me a verse I remember me and my friend posting frankly just incendiary stuff saying we could get it in the back of the Smash Brothers move our stage or posting about games I was beating using it in a more earnest way is a great service and finally one that Nintendo themselves just didn't quite understand which I think is kind of I mean for directional says they were with that system kind of funny and emblematic I think yeah it's interesting because those were the best parts of Wii U rights with 2 and DnBX me verse with the wind waker with the me verse integration right like I actually really liked a little user reviews user reviews oh my gosh why do you imagine how that would be on switch the whole shit no friend codes actual just sharing accounts with each other they like a lot right Twitter Twitter I don't know why well we know everything we did on it bad I'm like no everything you did wasn't bad keep the good then check that by the way I am predicting that we will see the return of Street Pass on on switch to I actually kind of feel sad that switch doesn't have it because I every time I see switch sales updated on my damn imagine if Street Pass is on this system how much better would be yeah I will take any system level features anything just to round out the topic does anyone here miss Nintendo being a two system company no nope no not necessarily yeah especially because I love the previous in Wii U it was a rough time well yeah especially because as we were talking about I mean by the end of those systems or for the bulk of those systems life cycles they were kind of stepping on each other of like okay the big game is here the big game is there where's the community at it's kind of hard to tell the marketing was confused I think it was obviously great for for GBA and GameCube those are very different systems Gameboy 964 DS and Wii very very different but it seemed like they kind of started in merging things anyway like they were like hey let's have we in DS be a lot more similar than GBA and GameCube or a lot more cross integration Wii U and 3DS even more similar and so by this point it's like well if the games are starting to get similar and the UI is starting to get similar these are experiences starting to get similar because now both systems have two screens and one's a touchscreen and they both have an e-shop why just merge it and like it just felt inevitable and it makes those a lot more interesting to like look back on especially now that we're removed from them but I think the proof was kind of in the pudding that Nintendo themselves were working towards that from the very beginning and in every generation every generation just came more and more likely that like this needs to be unified because if you have one strong core Nintendo fan base that buys everything on one system and can be all on the same page then this is where you get the switch and it does the same thing that the Wii did in terms of incredible incredible astronomical sales but people actually care about the switch in a way that people like the Wii but didn't care right it's not lightning in a bottle either right like this success which has had from gamers right it's not oh it's not like some sort of casual thing that they just caught no this is something that like the people that are buying games on switch with like what was that like fact you heard like recent like like almost like 90% of switch owners in the last year have logged into online or something like that I'm butchering the data but something to that effect right just strongly suggesting that most people do play their switch and so like if that's the case going into switch to whenever it does come out right like it it does bode well for Nintendo to have continued success they've never failed with a handheld and so they're going to do well and I think I heard are you bringing this up the other day I'm not sure where it comes from but I'm sure it's true that Nintendo has actually made more money during the switch era than prior of gents where they've had two different platforms. Yep. Hmm. That's right. Offers are so strong. I mean also mean the price points are higher on switch right but then you'll see how you'll see the other subscription plan right you have all these other things that tells diversified with with label and merchandising now the movies and the parks. A lot of it is because of the game sales being significantly higher than their other platforms more consistently and the fact that when they would get like big game sales you know like say on 3DS or DS that's a 40 bucks. Target 60 now significantly would have Nintendo select things so over the course of the generation you're making less and less money to give you an idea they ate into their profits and they dipped below their their 10 billion that they had sitting in a bank account and then now they reportedly have like over 25 billion in their bank. Jesus Christ. They've made way more of this generation than they've made. Well they also have some semblance of third party support now. Not much. But it is more than they had. So some are doing bank. I mean Minecraft is doing better on switch than did on 3DS. Grand was only available on new course. I guess it's just a different kind of third party support. Right. It's not the third party support we want. It's existing buddy. Yeah. Hey. Hey, hey, hey. I don't know the Wolfenstein games doom. Come on now. They exist. And they're good. They're good. Wolfenstein 2 is great on switch. It was great on switch. Do you like Wolfenstein 2 on switch. Even the Witcher 3 at the time you know did not play at all mobile version of Witcher 3 in the world and it played decently. Well, they gave us PC graphics settings for a bit so we could try to make it look the way we want. It was nice. But when I were talking about Apex Legends and how that looks on switch though. So it's definitely not. It's a case by case basis. Well, look, look, we're not getting into anything from EA. All right. Let's just say they can't be trusted about the best relationship. The importance of these games ultimately though is on the consumer side. I remember.  But because there was still support from either Nintendo because their efforts are split well and they're also looking at switch already. But the efforts are split and third parties were not existent. I was off playing PS Vita and PS 4 way more. The switch is not only great because Nintendo keeps the more regular release cadence but because they also have third parties to the point where I basically never put my switch down. There's rarely a week when I'm not playing a game on switch. Whereas for any past Nintendo system that was not the case because I was trying to get from Nintendo release to Nintendo release. So I think they recognize that this added profit comes from player engagement and player engagement comes from everybody zeroing in on one machine. Yeah. And that's how we get what like on average 1314 Nintendo published games a year on switch as opposed to five or six maybe seven and Wii U and they sell really well. Yes. Yes. I mean the other thing too is you know not having to buy two different consoles if you couldn't afford if you can only afford one console and then all of a sudden a banger game comes all on the one you don't have that's that sucks. Now with one console you get all the games and you don't have to worry about missing a missing a game because you couldn't afford that console.  There you are. Eric can you let some other people talk. Yeah, I know right. No, no. Oh, I got to take the couple quick thing. Yeah, right. No, I know one one of the game series that I know hasn't been brought up that I will miss or I do miss and then you know think back finally on was the Mario on the Ouija those games that series was freaking fantastic. Um yeah and then obviously street pass was freaking fantastic do I really hope they they bring that back on a completely different note though I have a absolute massive headache right now. Cool. So I think I'm going to actually dip. I apologize guys. You're good. Oh, I can't. It's great. So yeah. I'm careful driving home. Yeah, right. All right. Thanks for coming on guys. Sorry I didn't get to talk to you guys. Yeah. Oh, no, you get to miss the debate. Oh, God. Oh, no. For you. Not taking that. We're going to get it. That would that would really help your headache, Eric. Wait, before you go, Eric, what are you? What are you? Are you going to have sex? No. Okay. Are you team 24 or team 25? No, I'm hoping this year. I really need it. What team? What team? Yes, Alice. What do you think? I wanted to cheer. Well, what do you believe? This year.  This year. Okay. Oh, God. Okay. Sorry. Hunter, when you said, what do you believe?  What do you believe? Yes. It's a serious matter. Serious topic. Oh, nice. This is a matter of philosophy. I like this. Boom. There you go. We'll scoot you like that. We can do that. You two, you two. We get nice and close. Yeah. Back lock banter. How do my armpits smell? Oh, my God. Oh, there you go. There it is. Yeah. Right up in there. No, no, this side. They're going to do it again. Oh, my God. I think his tongue is on. I'm so glad to take his camera. I just that's fine. Yeah. The tongue was off camera. Oh, wait. What does he do to him? Jake, keep your pants on. Keep your pants on. Okay. All right. Wait, wait, wait. Guys, ready? This is goes to you and today. Ready? Oh, oh. Oh, no. Oh, wait. Oh, all right. All right. All right. Let's get to our second topic. The big debate of the day is Nintendo Switch. You're going to come out in 2024 or 2025 later, etc. Um, I don't know. I don't, I literally didn't know homework. So of course I cover Nintendo every day. Do I need homework? I think I just know you might need homework. I don't know. I don't know what they're going to bring. I didn't watch the debate that you guys had. So I don't know what their evidence and their proof or any of it is you. All you told me about it was that they have good arguments. And I said, cool. Andres, maybe respect your way more. He won't even tell me what the arguments were. I don't even know what I'm preparing for over here. Yeah, bro. I talked about the codename thing. That was it. That's a good argument. That was it. Anyways, that was the only thing you told me anyways. All right. So I think the point is we didn't try to game plan to be like, well, let's get them right now. We're just like, hey, this is a good argument. It would be cool to revisit this. I told Botox games and Tucker. I told them like a week ago, hey, this is going to be a thing. It's like, oh, yeah, we're going to be prepared. I'm like, I'm not doing anything to prepare. So yeah, we got all document here with stats and numbers. Yeah, I'm ready to get owned. It's the same document from the on country. We got fiscal year numbers. We got percent drops in hardware.  I love this. This makes me happy. Even more research going into that predictions video. All right. So I mean, how do we start? How do we start? Like, uh, what should we like go first? As a sidebar, Nate, I'm getting a request for a poll in your chat. If you can run one to see where your community is at in terms of 2024-2024. Oh, yeah. This is an Andres restart idea already on my community page earlier. And I do enjoy the polls during this week. I like doing the polls during the stream. Doge says that we have the most gay Nintendo podcast. And in 2024, that's a flex and a half.  Yeah, you are carrying. Thank you. All right. Uh, let's let team 2025 go since I always talk about 2024 on my channel all the time. Right. Let's get some right. Let's clarify. Who's all on team 2025? I know Bulltox games and backlog banter probably based on the debate before. What are you on? Are you on 24 or 25? Uh, 24. 24. Oh, wait, wait. I think last time we spoke, you were on 25. You changed your mind. No, I was always on 24.  I mean, I, I did clarify and I said that, um, I could see them waiting until it's past the PS2, which could be, you know, a long time. So he's got, he's, he's kind of a fence rider, but he's, he's 24. Oh, of course. I mean, it's been trying to predict like you're going to go 24 or 25. We got to clarify the sides. Who you asking? I was asking daddy. Jake, the only daddy that's here. I mean, well, the thing is, I'm talking at the same time. Sometimes you don't hear really the only daddy here. I don't know. Hey, Jake, are you 24 or 25? Uh, 24. I was just saying, are you going to hear the argument and the other side? Sorry. Sorry. Nevermind. It's okay. It's okay. So it's kind of like a 4v3, but the three are so prepared. Nevermind. Let me voice something here, right? Cause I don't think I have voices to tuck or a bow before, right? I honestly regret not having a second person, right? Hey, you tried. You tried. I tried, but I think there's a little bit of a psychological. Like, I think you guys were fantastic just for the record, right? This is no, this is no shade at you guys at all. But I do think for the sake of the discussion, right? When it's 2v1, simply by volume, right? Of two people versus one, there's a little bit of a psychological. Well, I mean, if the majority of the people in the show think one thing, I think, I think it hurts my argument a little bit. Yeah. No, but in regard. Yeah. But then in this case, now it's a 4v3.  No, it is. Abram, Abram, maybe changed because I thought you were 2024. I am, I am somewhere in the middle.   He might be at the end of this debate. He might no longer be a fence center. That's the thing. It's true. It's a point. I'm going to be probably arguing from both sides. I'm going to do a lot of. All right. I want team 2025 to go first because you can see in the poll, right? Everyone's like saying 2024 from the most ones, a vast majority thought process. So I think it's good to start with a counter rather than go with like the obvious that most people think. I'll point out that when we did our debate, we did two polls, one in the beginning, one at the end. And the beginning one, it was 80, 20, um, first switch to 2024. But when it ended, it was 70, 30, right? So you could argue that, that team 2025 had gained some around during that discussion. It's also a completely different channel. Yeah. And that was also a month ago. And I do want to say this to sort of preface anything before we start getting into our data. Bo and I did minimal new research, uh, after, uh, before today, uh, after, after Andres, yeah, it's exact same information. So we're not necessarily bringing anything new. And that is because on the team 2025 side, not much has changed. No information has come out from Nintendo that has, that would change it, whether that's financial data or reports from investors, anything like that. So we are still working off of data that we mostly gathered in December and, uh, yeah. And I, and I, what I want to say is I'm still convinced that the trends from Nintendo and their financial data, which is very interpretable indicate 2025. However, I do want to clarify. Hello, other person. Hello. This is my brother. Right. He's going to do a shop. Restart dude. You want to do a shop. What? Oh, I mean, do we, I don't think we have shop. Yeah. So anyway, Danny is, Danny is not an extreme gamer like me. I hate that term, but, uh, you're not either. You haven't even played last of us. Who? Who? That's not a game. All right. That's not a game anyway. Did you watch it? Okay. Let's stick. Oh, that's all you need to do. That's all you needed. Exactly. Danny is switched to coming on and 20 he has no idea what's going on switch to in 2024 or 2025. There we go. I love it. All right. I'll see you tomorrow. I'm like the heat. All right. We lost. Sorry to bring that up. Thanks, Danny. Uh, they lost. Yeah, they lost. Bucks. Why do you throw that at me? I'll use this. And we won. How about that? What? I mean, I just, I just, why would you just, why would you do that to me? Like, I was like, oh boy, it's time to, time to drop it. All right. How hard is it that they do it with eight seed and destroyed the one seed? Thanks. Yeah. I know. Sour spot for me.  They're going to lose it tomorrow too. I'm sorry, bro. I should not know. I'm sorry. I refuse to pair up with a Celtics fan. I apologize. The heat are awesome. All right. You're going to be wearing a Celtics jersey soon. Yeah. That's cause I lost a bet. Yeah. That's right. We have to get you back with it. I'll see. I'll just. We have to have a bet going into the Celtics Bucks eventual playoff series. Cause that'll be sick. All right. But we'll see. That's got to actually happen first. All right. Getting back to what we were going to talk about here. I just want to verify as well. Cause I don't know where the poll is at the chat. Cause I accidentally closed it. I have to reopen it. But I did do it. I did do it. I did do it. I did do it. I had to reopen it. Um, but I did do a poll five days ago in the community section with over 4,000 votes and it was 76 to 24. So that was what it was coming in. That's wild. 72 votes in. We're 74 to 26. Hey, that's ground. I'll take it. Well, it's actually interesting cause I've got a lot of comments on my videos where people will say like, actually, I think all this data suggests 2026 and like. What? Me maybe. I don't know, but. Well, it would be one of my arguments against against some of the things you'll, you'll sort of suggest, right? Cause you guys are in T 2025, but I think some of the things you've suggested, maybe push it beyond what any of us are hoping. Um, but we'll, we'll, we'll see. I want to hear the arguments cause the only argument I've heard was just the, the one. So yeah. And my audience hasn't heard any of the arguments. So to finish what I was saying in terms of clarifying, going into this, I still think that the financial trends and data from Nintendo, which is very interpretable, indicate a 2025 release and we'll present some arguments here. However, I will admit, as I said, we're working from data that we pulled a month ago and not much has changed on our end. You guys do not have the same worries that we do because a lot has happened in the last month of that 2024 and lots of rumors, lots of reports, lots of stuff. And that means that we have a lot to work to work against here. So I will say, I still think that 2025 makes more sense in terms of financials, but I am, I'm more convinced that 2024 is an option because of all the, like so much nonsense has happened in the last few weeks and all of you guys have been covering it and been doing amazing jobs and been watching all of you. But like my mind is being pushed towards 2024, but I still do think 2025 is a reasonable end. Let's hold on the financial part first. Let's hold on the financial part first. That maybe that gives us a little bit of structure here because there's a lot. We could talk about rumors, right? We could talk about pre-order. There's so many directions. Let's focus on financial stuff, right? Because you talk about financial suggesting 2025 and then I look at the financials and I'm like, no, no, this suggests we need this thing ASAP, right? So like give me, give me your take here. Well, I was, so I watched your video today, Andres. And I think you've mentioned the same thing in your videos, Nate. This idea that Nintendo won't go three years with declining hardware, that seems to be a really big sticking point, which I totally agree with. I'm not arguing that they'll go three years with declining hardware. I'm arguing it comes out the same fiscal year that you guys are. So maybe that doesn't indicate 2024, 2025, but I feel like that's not a great rebuttal when we think it's going to come out the same fiscal year, which is what matters. That is the thing that matters. I want to point something out though, right? And I don't know if you, if you honed it on this part that I mentioned in the video, because it's a 27 minute video, right? There's a lot of different things brought up. I understand where you're coming from, right? So if the switch to just not come out in time for the upcoming fiscal year, we'll have a fourth year of declining sales, which I don't think that's going to happen. Nintendo's going to do everything that they can to combat that, right? But the other thing is that it's more of an uphill battle now because when you have declining sales, as the history shows, it gets worse and worse by year by somewhat of an exponential factor, right? It's not just a steady decline usually. And this previous fiscal year, I mean, we're still in it, right? It ends in March. We had tears of the kingdom in the Mario movie. Those are two big blips. Switch 2 doesn't have that. I mean, rather, Nintendo doesn't have that for this upcoming fiscal year. So if they don't even have Switch 2, they're in trouble. Well, they have Pokemon, which is probably equal. Sure, but they have Pokemon pretty much every year, right? Right, but that, I mean, if you're going to count tears of the kingdom in Mario movie as a blip, Pokemon totally counts as a blip. Yeah, especially counting that last year. My point is that we've seen Pokemon and they still had DLC though, right? So then they also had the bundle. That doesn't generate as much sales even close to the release, obviously. Yeah, but the Mario movie introduced the kingdom or bigger blip collectively. Yeah, all right. But the point I want to make though, right? In terms of the whole, you know, fiscal year thing is that if the Switch 2 comes out say March 3rd, right? The same way it came on March 3rd back in 2017. That's not even a whole month of sales. And so that month alone isn't enough to combat that fourth year of declining sales, right? They're going to need a bigger body of work, several shipments, several waves, and software selling throughout the bulk of the fiscal year to really combat that downward trend. A single month, I don't think is enough. And I'll throw this other little wrinkle a lot at you, right? I also think expecting a March release again is highly unlikely. The thing is for every handheld Nintendo console looks like this. This is a hybrid, so it's a little different. But we also have them on record. The Nintendo executives have told us they wanted to switch out for the holiday of 2016. They didn't because the software wasn't ready. And what is something that we all know right now? This is a very different scenario right now. Nintendo sits on games, probably mastered for a year and a half, fireman engaged for a year. Tuesday King was basically complete back in March of 2022. Metro Prime 4 is now apparently having been in quality testing since March of 2023. Mario Wonder was made without a deadline in mind. Nintendo has games. And so the scenario with Switch where they delayed it into March because they didn't have the games is not a realistic scenario this time. Nintendo sits on games now. They're ahead of the curve. And also holiday sales that's the best time typically, right? So you're not going to intentionally skip the holidays, especially if you have the games ready. And if we're talking about combining that again, that fourth year of declining sales, a single month less than a month is not even remotely enough time to combat that. So that's my take on that. I want to push on the Nintendo has games they're sitting on a little bit because I agree something like 3D Mario Metro Prime are probably just getting polished up right now. But that's all we really would know. With fireman engaged and Metro Prime we mastered and everybody went to switch. I mean, we knew years in advance in some cases. Don't you think we would have heard more? You saying they're ready? They're sitting with ready games for the Switch 2? You don't really have anything to back that up. Honestly, that's just kind of other than track record of a couple of recent games having that. Yeah. And those are games that we heard. Like I said, these games are done. They're already working. We didn't hear about primary mastered officially until the Shadow dropped it. So it was all rumors. Well, if we're going to talk about rumors, then we know quite a lot. For Tears of the Kingdom, we learned about it being basically complete for a whole year after it came out. So just because we're not getting leaks doesn't mean they aren't ready. We see the evidence usually after the fact, but we still have the evidence that those games were done for a long time before release. Okay. So I'm curious what games do you think are ready for Switch 2 right now? What developers, let me say, what developers do you think have had enough time since their last release to potentially just already be ready for a new game to release? Well, Retro Studios, obviously. Okay. Well, that's in the Switch 1 game that's currently announced for Switch 1. It's Cross Jet, right? We don't know that. We don't know. I'm not going to tell you. You cannot count Prime 4. Oh, that's fair. That's fair. Your question didn't clarify. That's fair. Old Mon Company is suing Pal World. Was that the case? They're investigating it. Oh, yeah. We'll get back to this. We'll bring that up in the Pal World segment. We'll get to that. That is a big update for us to talk about. Yeah. The other obvious one is 3D Mario, right? But also there have been several EBD groups that could be working on something, right? There's a whole bunch of different studios there. So, I mean, I think that I've also, I've talked about in the past, I think based off historical precedent, right? Like Monolithsoft is set up to have a game release in 2025. We also know the Mario Kart team, yes, they may have had contributed somewhat to the DLC, but they'll likely have something up and ready to go as well, right? Sure. But multiple of those themes you mentioned end up making more sense for their timeline for 2025, which would mean that if a, that the system did release in March 2025, which is what we're arguing for, then that would get basically the same pattern of release cadence of massive games going through the end of that year. And one thing I will say is that... So, the Mario Kart game, the Xenoblade game, or Monolithsoft, that's, yeah, I think that's 2025, right? But they could have launched the Mario Kart game this year if they wanted to. They could have launched 3D Mario already. And so, like, my perspective is that say Switch 2 comes out like September or August, right? Between Metroid Prime 4, 3D Mario, a Pokemon game which always typically comes out in November, which, you know, if it's backwards compatible, maybe a graphics patch, that's already a really solid starting lineup, right? And, I mean, as both brought up before, like, our arguments aren't that different because I'm thinking, you know, that last four months of the year, right? I've said by the end of summer, I think it's probably September, right? So, basically, I'm thinking probably September, right? But I hope for sooner, right? But that's kind of like the month I've been... They tend to be only at least two big games. Right. So, you know, they don't need to have eight games ready for 2024. They just need to have a couple. If it releases in September, they need to at least have four. Sure. Well, how do you figure? Well, I mean, a Pokemon, that's a given. Yeah. I think they only need really two big exclusives. If we're just going to be completely honest, if they have four months in the year, you need a big launch one, and then you need something to hit two months later, you're going to have Pokemon, which, yeah, that's going to sell mostly for Switch, obviously. People are going to buy necessarily Switch 2 to play the Pokemon game. But the system's going to be sold out at launch. And it's heading right directly into a holiday season off a sellout with another major game dropping in October or November for it. It's going to just be sold out the first four months. And there's going to be third-party games. And they're going to have smaller indie games. And they're going to have a cat. There could be literally a fitness game that drops in there that we're like, oh, that's not a big game. But those games sell really well. So like, if you look, because like, saying that they need more than that in the first four months, that's all they had in the first four months of Switch. It was two big games. And one of them was a port. It was a massive port, though. Sure. Every single month for the first year. And what will we expect the same thing this time around as well? I'm just noting that, like, the Switch didn't have a dissimilar start. It just had a killer first 12 months. That first 12 months was amazing. But it was all front-loaded. We just have to know that games are coming. That's the big thing. We can't go into the launch only knowing about the two big games. They got to let us know what's coming. We had a roadmap heading into Switch. We kind of knew when a lot of that first year was going to, as long as we have that roadmap and we know there's a consistent Cadence in that first year, that's all they need. They don't have to have something every single month. That's like one realistic thing.  And your name was Cadence. Consistent Cadence would be the sickest nickname. I'm sorry, I continue. Cadence or Hyrule, that's all I'm going to say. Anyway, what's going on? Oh, that's true. Got it. I think that, because the, again, and I don't know if we've specifically said this, we probably have, but again, we're talking about either holiday 2024 or March of 2025. So we're talking about the same fiscal year. So we're really talking about. A little bit more holiday. Well, I'll get to that in seconds. I don't think there's no precedent for anybody releasing hardware in summer, basically anybody. So you can release hardware in September. Is that your claim? Oh, sorry. When you say summer, what are you ending summer at? By the end of summer is September. It's literally three weeks into September is the end of summer. Okay. Yeah. I have, I have. People think. I love doing this. I love saying by the end of summer.  So by the end of September. And the point is different in different parts of the world too. So like, yeah. Yeah. That's fair. And that's good for me to know, to clarify your guys position, because there is, of course, there's less precedent in September for a new piece of hardware. Obviously plenty of revisions have released in September. So you're totally covered there. But my idea about the software is that if we look historically at modern Nintendo, right? We look at, let's, let's look at Wii, for example, Nintendo published three games on Wii. Oh, sorry. Cameras over here. Three games on Wii.  And then obviously it is a great game. Excite Boss is even better. And then you have Wii Sports for that big casual system explaining a piece of software. Wii U followed, and you also had Red Steel at launch, which is important. And I'll get to that in a second. You had a combination of a hardcore title, a casual title, and a third party exclusive.  I apologize, Daddy Jay. That's a good point about Bomberman. Bomberman was exclusive at the time. He wants you to curse more. So my feeling about the launch games is, it's so vibes-based, because ultimately I think you can make a very salient case for that casual game being made by that one, two Switch team. Yeah. Being ready, because obviously they had finished. Everybody went to Switch a long time ago. We are pretty sure. That's the worst developer. The same developer. Yeah. With the massive success even of Nintendo Switch Sports, I personally think they'll try to launch the next system with the Nintendo Switch Sports, quote unquote, resort, like a sequel. You get your big casual game that could conceivably be ready for this holiday. You get your big 3D Mario game. You'd cut both those bases. And then if Capcom's got that long rumor of Resident Evil, Nintendo exclusive, or whatever, you can fill these sort of tentpole things that Nintendo always have at launch. I think you can make a very salient case for that happening in holiday, or that happening in early 2025. I think it's important to note then that what this conversation really comes down to is when Nintendo will be the most confident and has the least pressure on them to launch the system. Now we've been talking a lot about this three-year decline. The problem with the declining sales, not only less revenue coming in, but most critically, it's your stock price going down and your investor is getting upset. It's important to note that two weeks ago, and it's being reported by the Wall Street Journal, Nintendo's stock price hit its highest. It hit its peak. So I don't think that Nintendo's under a lot of investor pressure right now. Now that could change on a stock price. Did you actually read the complete article on why it's hitting its peak? I might be missing something if you want to fill me in on that. If you read all the analysts when they're reporting on it hitting its peak, a lot of it is because of all the Switch 2 reports. Well, yeah, and the reality of that is if Nintendo comes out in their financial briefing in February, perhaps, and says, we are launching a piece of Switch hardware in the next fiscal year, that stock price is going to go even higher. And again, we're talking about the same fiscal year. So just the speculations in the stock price is high. Them coming out and saying the next fiscal year, which does include March, is not going to tank the stock price. The stock price is not going to fall. You're making the assumption Nintendo is going to give us a year headway on a new system. Correct. And this is the exact piece of data which Andres must have told you before, but just to clarify even more because this is the one area that Bo and I did a lot of research is when not only just Nintendo, but video game system hardware publishers in general, when how far ahead they usually get out to communicate to investors that they have a new piece of hardware coming and the precedent is overwhelmingly at least a year, if not two. And of course, we're not arguing two years. That would put us into 2026, late 2025, which is not what we're arguing for. But there is basically no evidence for these major companies that have lots of investors and need to be informing their investors of this well in advance in order to communicate that their stocks are going to shift in certain ways. There is no precedence for them announcing or hinting to their investors and then just having the system come out within an incredibly short amount of time. I mean, one year is the bare, bare minimum. And especially... It's my problem with that piece of data though, right? Because we go by the piece of data, right? Your expectation for March 2025 also seems dismal. Sure. But again, one year is the minimum. And so I guess my counter though, right? And it's more so countering your argument, not necessarily 2025 as a whole though, right? Is that if you're going to start being flexible on what that trend suggests, at that point it kind of opens the door for, well, how flexible do we want to be? Because I remember that piece of information. Well, my point is... It would be cool if we had that chart so we could go over it again. But I remember going over that chart, right? And there was a back and forth going on there. So some room for confusion and misinterpretation. But my general understanding that I had from what I remember is that if we go by the pattern that was suggesting there, it's most likely suggesting that we're not even getting the switch to, as you guys were expecting by March 2025. And so my point is, right, what you're bringing up, if we adhere to it exactly as the pattern suggests, you guys are also wrong. Incorrect. And I will tell you why. It's because the window that we're talking about here is one year is less common than two years, but it is still something that happens relatively consistently, putting a one-year announcement to release work. Do you have a way to show the data or at least say it? I don't know what the data is. You can send you a message of the image and you could present it, for example. I mean, present it on the computer. I don't think I have the image anymore.  Well, I mean, I can really... I do have another counter argument for this, by the way. I just don't know. We're arguing about date ranges and I don't know that us in the audience know what we're talking about. Sure. I'm basing this off memory.  Yeah, here. Bo, if you can send him just the document and make it read-only, I guess. Would that be a good solution? I mean, I can just... Yeah, here. I can put the code names in the... Yeah, copy-paste the code names thing. Yeah, that's the easiest thing to do. Oh, yeah. We can actually see it here in the private chat. Yeah, that'd be great. But my point being is that... We're maddening it kind of... With the window in terms of announcing things to investors and then actually releasing the hardware, the window is one year, which happened with 3DS, which happened with DS. That was one year, which happened with... Wii U was 16 months and then some other systems are two years. The window is between one and two years, which means that one year has normal presence that happens relatively often. It also happens with PS5 or PlayStation Xbox consoles. They also do about that one year to 18 months window. So placing it within one year absolutely has solid presence that is totally within the range of investor possibility communication to it. So we're not wiggling it anywhere because that's within the window. I think what I remember is that the more often it was less... It was more than a year though, right? So you guys are going to make the assumption that it's going to be a little shorter. It's going to be leaning towards the short side. Leaning towards the short side. I think we're on the same page now, at least in terms of understanding what you're getting at. I think the difference ultimately is between what Team 2025 is pausing, which is this will be on the shorter end of the established spectrum, whereas what you guys are saying is that this will be off of that established spectrum. It's some precedent versus no precedent. I want to clarify, what numbers have precedent actually? Have you looked at all of these numbers? I'm looking at it right now, unless I am mistaken, Virtual Boy, November 1994, releasing in July of the sixth month. It's not the only one, Game Boy Color as well. Literally releasing the exact same thing. Anything from this century? It is a revision. Nothing from the century? Nothing from the century? Game Boy Color? I don't know what you're talking about, buddy. I was just asking a question. Revisions basically always have a shorter announced to reveal in terms of the set of the hardware. That happened with new 3DS. That was a very quick turnaround. DSI as well. But for new system, new generation hardware, it's never that small. Virtual Boy is an interesting one, because they announced that one when the N64 was not selling very well. That's actually not even quite right. The reality of Virtual Boy, and the reason this goes back to my point before, is Nintendo is going to release this system when they're under the least pressure that they can. The Virtual Boy has such a short turnaround because this was a stopgap project because the then known Ultra 64 was not ready in time. Nintendo did not have anything for the holiday season, so they released the Virtual Boy. The Virtual Boy is an every way anomalous for this conversation. It's not a useful data point. I want to replicate the Virtual Boy success. Are you kidding me? That thing is a beast. I want to ask you guys a question, though. I was just bringing up that technically it was two systems. Of course. Great question, but I think very easily you can say, this is why Nintendo Switch 2 or Next in Harbor would not have been either of those camps. Pre-using this information to base what they're going to do for Switch 2? Correct. They're going all the way back. Go on, Wes. I'm just curious how it's relevant. Is it a completely different Nintendo? No, of course. We obviously focused mostly on the modern stuff, which still does support our argument. We just decided to continue the research back so we weren't sure that we weren't just saying, okay. I'll say this. We've been focusing on the modern stuff. The only reason we knew the code name of NX when we knew it was because of their announcement about making mobile games, and Nintendo said this actually publicly, the reason they even told us the code name. Even modern Nintendo for Switch, we wouldn't have known it at that time. That wouldn't have been a thing. Also, I just want to also note, Iwata was the first president after the Yamuchi family. Unfortunately, he passed away. We have a completely different president who does no game-making experience. He's literally nothing but a numbers guy. He crunches numbers. That was what he did at Nintendo. I want to ask you guys a question. This is on territory. It's on territory, for sure. I think we all agree that the Switch 2 is a new scenario. Obviously, looking at history helps us, but it's not the be all end all. But what I want to ask you guys in the spirit of just better understanding, why do you think it matters? We could look at the points of data, but why do you think it matters that Nintendo has to announce a code name this far in advance? Why does that matter? With the investors, it's literally everything. That is confirmation that new hardware is coming without fully revealing it, letting us know the specs, the games. There's no pressure to announce the things that the gamers care about. It's what the investors care about. What they care about is them giving official confirmation that this new piece of hardware is coming within a year window. Of course, it's a very big thing where they just say, it's coming out at some point. Sorry, Nate, yes. It's interesting because we just talked about how the investors are really excited and happy and things are really peaking. Why would they have to say, hey, it's coming out in the next year? Why couldn't they just say, hey, it's coming out in the next three months? What's the difference? Outside of they've never done it, the investors are already really interested and really excited over something that hasn't even been announced yet. I know they could give you that yearly way, but that also was telling investors, hey, for the next year, our sales ain't going to be great because everyone's waiting for the new system and we're about to tank the switch. What did actually be more better for them if they actually had a shorter announcement to release window? Because we're at, Nintendo's not in trouble right now. They're doing really, really well. Zelda movie announcement, theme park revenue, Mario movie revenue, all this stuff. Nintendo's now got more avenues of revenue than they have before as well. I'm kind of like sitting here, talking about, oh, it's all about the investors. Well, the investors are very happy with Nintendo, so why would they need to know a year in advance today versus in the past where maybe they were more worried about it because Nintendo would melt their systems until they weren't selling anymore?  However, I think it's important to note that a lot of, yeah, a lot of investor stuff is very fickle, right? We're talking about a stock high on peer speculation, right? It is not uncommon for a stock to plummet on a singular piece of news. This happens a lot in the tech world. I mean, especially with larger tech companies in Nintendo, stocks pivot on a moment. And so it's... I think it's kind of pivot when they have that financial meeting coming up. Right, and February, we might get a codename then. I'm of the opinion personally, I think actually talking about this a little bit, but I'm of the opinion that we'll get the codename in that February presentation because I think it's important to affirm this, right? It's important to affirm that the hardware is coming opposed to your stock trading on a VGC. Didn't they already affirm the hardware back in 2021 when they put up a slide that said Nintendo moved into the next system? Yeah, the next integrated hardware. Technically, if you want to be real, they mentioned the new one in 2021. Not to mention, like, there's the multiple Bloomberg articles stating that, like, LCDs are in production, production is like moving forward. It's all speculation, yeah. They literally already confirmed a new system was coming in 2021. So then it goes back to the question. Is this an iterative hardware? They just didn't give it a codename, but they literally set a system coming and they wanted to assure investors that Nintendo accounts are moving forward to that next thing. Yeah, it's iterative hardware as well. So, like, I mean, we're kind of new territory. I'm also of mind that I don't think the codename thing needs to happen anymore. If you look at the tech space, a lot of people aren't announcing codenames anymore. They just announced the product. Xbox has done it with, like, Project Scorpio, but that's just, like, the hype reasons, you know? Yeah, I think that you guys are not totally wrong. I am somewhere between both teams because I think that the precedent is very important, but I also think, Nate, you make an extremely important point about the fact that Nintendo is currently pivoting into a space they've never been in before, and that they're now a multimedia Disney-like company, which they've always tried to do, but now literally are. So I think it's totally fair to suggest that, yeah, I think it's totally fair to suggest the precedent is important to a point, but we are doing such a new environment that you have to discount that to an extent. That's what you guys is this. And Andres, this is something you talked about in the debate that I would love you to go further on and love your other guys' feedback on this. Let's say that Nintendo is offering a very short turnaround time. We're talking, let's just say for a second, arguments six months until the reveal of the system, reveal in March-ish, release it in September. I am of the opinion that this is going to be very iterative hardware. I don't think anybody here or across the industry would disagree. Now, Nintendo got into a very difficult situation with the Wii U on this same grounds of not giving the time to adequately explain the differences in the hardware. I think that the biggest optical issue for Nintendo Switch 2 is that because it will be such a similar looking device, and the games will be similar in that there's not going to be such a big jump in graphical fidelity from one platform to the other, that you're going to have a lot of your more average player saying, hey, I already have Mario Kart 8 Deluxe on Switch. I'm fine with this. Why do I need to upgrade? I think the more time Nintendo has to explain the differences in the hardware will help them avoid the Wii U pitfall they've already fallen into. And even if you look at 3DS, which is a much more successful piece of hardware, 3DS only sold, we'll call it in the class in a moment, 3DS only sold half of what DS sold. And that was, again, an iterative piece of hardware, but there's going to be a larger jump in 3DS and 3DS, and they will be from Switch 1 to Switch 2, I promise. I feel like, I just got to acknowledge something, it's been going on all podcasts. This is the first time I feel like we've had an intellectual equal match to Andres.  It's enjoyable. It's not very little, but I've been on the show right now. Absolutely. But that's my point, guys. I'm just curious what you think about this. Is there a danger for Nintendo of not having enough time to explain the differences in the hardware? I really want to speak on that. If they convey the message in the right way the first time, then they shouldn't need much time. Something else I want to speak on is that I don't think time was the problem for the Wii U. They showed that thing off in 2011. It came out 2012. It had a year and a half, and they botched it. Switch had a year and a half. The PS4 was revealed in February the next year. That was where it was. Exactly. It's not timing. It's just execution. The other thing, DS to 3DS, we talk about how Switch is a repeatable success. It's not lightning in the bottle situation. DS, we were lightning in the bottle situations, and then Nintendo tried to get that again, but they realized that's not their long-term audience. Switch, I think, they have a long-term audience, and it's not about time it's about execution, but Nate wanted to talk, so I don't want to continue before he loses his thought. I just wanted to... I'm not going to lose my thought. Nintendo rarely tries to sell us on hardware. They sell us on games. As long as the system is named appropriately, that it's understood that this is the next Switch rather than a Switch accessory or another Switch OLED situation. They got to be very clear in the branding of this system. As long as they deliver the games, that's what's going to sell. The consistent issue with a lot of those systems that are brought up, like, oh, look at the 3DS. It had SteelDiver at launch. It's next to the game was a remaster of a Zelda game in the middle of some... They didn't have any...  The world's first single-diverged fender. Look, Switch, obviously, with the four and a half marketing cycle, the four and a half month marketing cycle, yes, we knew about it sooner because we told the NX. Didn't know what it was until four and a half months before it came out. So they had a four and a half month marketing cycle and, yeah, they did a great job explaining that this is a thing you can put in the dock and take with you and go on a walk. Yeah, that was a really great explainer, but they weren't trying to sell us on, like, these, you know, individual features. Breath of the Wild was already the most talked about game of that year before we even knew the system came out. And all Nintendo had to say is, this is launching on our next hardware. Well, that's actually what I'm going to tell the system. They have to have the games. I wanted to bring that up. Breath of the Wild had over two years of marketing and that sold the Switch. We talk about the Switch being announced in October and that's totally fair. Oh, like Metroid Prime 4 I don't think we're marketing. I don't know about marketing. I know technically technically Breath of the Wild was announced in 2014, I would argue it didn't really have that. They knew about it.  Okay, but my point is Zelda, okay, here's the thing. Breath of the Wild sold 30 million, right? Never been done in Zelda history. Not even selling like 10 million. It's unprecedented. And yes, we knew about the game in 2014, this tiny little off-screen demo at the game awards at year as well. And then boom, nothing. Oh, I got to really know what the game was. It was just a bunch of, hey, this looks cool. Oh, well, we have this big world, but what are we doing in this world? This all looks cinematic. It's something really- I think from a casual perspective the promise of Skyrim Zelda is one of the most exciting things for core gamers. I understand. The perfect rebuttal. Is that the marketing really began when they did the demo at E3 in 2016, because from that point forward that's all anyone talked about. They literally went to E3. They were the only company to be- we had one game. But this game isn't just any game and you're about to see. And from that moment forward all the internet could talk about Breath of the Wild trended every single day. It was so crazy that they won E3 with one game. That was unprecedented. That was insane. The marketing did technically start sooner but the hype wasn't like that. It was a completely different level. I got the rebuttal. You ready? I'm piggybacking off you, Nate. This is a one-two punch. You ready? Okay. And listen, I'm a Metroid fan and I believe in Metroid Prime 4 but I'm not even going to use Metroid Prime 4 here. I'm not going to do it. What's he doing? We're going to uncharted territory. Has been marketing a game for some time already. They have. They can do it. Well, act somewhat, actually. And if you think about it, if you think about all the Mario games that have been coming out lately, it's actually quite peculiar. You look at the fundamental financials and how Mario games have been selling a lot better lately. They've been marketing their big premiere title the next 3D Mario with the Mario Damn movie. That's been marketed for a long time already. That actually is a good point. That's actually an interesting point.  That first poster, I know it's a poster for the movie. I know it's not going to be a game that's going to look like a movie exactly, but when I saw that poster, my first thought was damn, if this was a game it would be the greatest thing ever. Oh, absolutely. What did you say, Jake? It was Mario first standing in front of the Mushroom Kingdom and was toad shops and pipes going everywhere and peaches castle up on the top of the mountain. Wait, wasn't it like showing Mario from the back? Yes, that's the one. Dude, the one where he has no ass?    I'm not playing that. No, but you make a very good point. It will sell 30 billion, not 31 billion. Damn. That's actually a good point. That is reported. Before I mess up, it is not reported. It was brought up in a podcast from Andy Robinson. He heard a couple sources. In a podcast in passing, that's not a report from Video Games Chronicle. I just want to make that distinction. He hasn't pulled back on it. He hasn't refuted it. I think most will agree that if Nintendo has a Mario game ready, they're going to have it at least available pretty soon. If they don't have a 3D Mario game ready after going on seven years, that'd be crazy. That's my rebuttal, guys. They have been marketing a big game. It's not a bad point. The reality is that Nintendo loves to launch with Mario. It doesn't always happen, but obviously in the States, NES, SNES, N64, DS even, Wii U, there's plenty of pressing for this. That's my point. Again, comes back to the fact for me of I think you can make an equal case for these launch games being ready in September or in March. That's my thing, because again, it comes back to calling the class in a moment. It comes back to the fact that they hold games, and I think that Andres, it's a very salient thing for you to raise. There's a bunch of people from VGC just giving their predictions, and there's a lot of people on Twitter talking about how they anticipate that Nintendo will replicate the first year of Switch One in that they'll hit all the major franchises back to back to back to back to make sure that people want to be there. And I think that they're going to do that. And again, the important thing is if Nintendo is confident to finish a game and wait for the right time, it doesn't matter what the game is. It matters when that time is. I think the only thing that we need debating is time, because I don't think there's any debate that's going to be 3D Mario at launch. And I don't think that there's any debate that 3D Mario if it's announced one day before release or a year and a half before release is going to be huge. I mean, they sold what, 8 million copies of Super Mario 3D All-Stars, with two weeks head start. That game is going to be massive. Yeah. That too.  So that FOMO is going to be there. I think you guys are on the money with the game point. And I think the games could be ready in 2024. I 100% believe that they could launch with 3D Mario in September. I would say November. My personal opinion is probably November. But it just comes down to what is the right moment. Is it September? Is it November? Is it March? Yeah. I've argued September, even before, like the rumors. One, because there was another rumor of something happening in March, right? And they just kind of be thinking about, like, you know, I'm not going to reveal a release marketing cycle, but also I'm kind of of the frame of mind that in order to maximize Mario sales, right? You don't want to just come out in November. You want to come in a couple months before, have multiple shipments, iron out the kinks, get the patches in, have multiple games to deliver a really strong, you know, holiday season. And also that kind of bodes, that would also speak to my point about combating against this fourth year of, you know, dropping sales, right? If you come out sooner, that's more time to get more sales out there, right? Because the day one launch is probably going to only be two to three million systems. That's usually how it is, and they always sell out regardless of what the launch line-up is. Excuse me, I have an important related request. Yes, Jay. Thank you. Can we put the Mario poster on the screen so people can see? I just want to be valid. Oh, Mike. You're really going to make me put in the work for that? I have it here. I can share it if you want. Of course you have it on. I already saved. Here we go. I actually do have it saved, but it's easier. But based off the way Streamlabs works, it's better to have it on a website. Tell me that it's on-natural. It's like he's missing part of his body.  It's like that it's not there. I would cut it out of his body. Yeah. I'm going to say something about that. Wait, that's why you want me to show it? Yeah, yeah, yeah.  No, it is a great poster. So it doesn't look abnormal to me. I've seen people with asses just like that. So... Well, I'm sorry for you and for them. Yeah, I'm sorry you got to see it or what. I just kind of... It's wild that we're talking about his butt. I don't know why. He likes asses. It's important to him. I understand. Can I make a boring point? Because I have nothing new. I think you're right. If you want this kind of back and forth, this is all we do in our videos.  I love it. What am I right about? What you're right about is that what Nintendo wants is multiple successive waves of stock. Nintendo has historically had trouble, as every hardware manufacturer has had trouble with keeping up with demand at launch. And if Nintendo has a game as potent as a big 3D Mario, and then something people actually want like Metroid Prime 4, I love Metroid. I'll stand for Metroid on this podcast. I think it's going to have a big moment. People are really like speaking ill of Prime 4, saying it's not a seller. I'm not saying it's going to sell 30, but it's going to be a record for Metroid. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. The point is ultimately this, and this is so boring, and it doesn't help the debate at all, but the reality is the right release time for Nintendo is probably when they can already have that next wave of stock ready. Because I think that if there's no point in launching in September to capitalize on the holiday if you sell it in September and can't be ready for the holiday. Oh, absolutely. That I agree with. Yeah. And so that's another wrench that I think goes above game speculation or anything. I think it's going to be constraints of production, which is so boring to talk about. What's saying that they don't have that already? Well, and you're totally right, Wes, they very well could. And I think that's part of where reports are very useful because reports of a production can be verified a little bit more easily because this is happening outside of development rooms and lock and key scenarios.  So when we start to get more reports and there might be, I don't care about reports super closely, you guys might have some reports from me already reports that these systems are probably already made. Then we got launch locked in. I think the benefit of a March launch is if Nintendo has six extra months to make stock, you have a big stock drop at launch. You've got another stock drop over the summer. You got another one the fall, another one on holiday. And maybe they can get that ready. Maybe they can orchestrate that for September and for Christmas. I don't know. But if I