Welcome to this summit session on one of the most remarkable topics of study in science, the so-called biofield sciences. I consider the biofield one of the last great frontiers of science and certainly of medicine because when we fully understand the nature of the biofield, it'll help us more readily maintain our own health and our wellbeing. Beyond that though, I think more importantly, when we understand the biofield more fully, it'll help deepen our understanding of our own very nature as human beings. We're fortunate to have four panel members with deep expertise in the biofield, expertise ranging from the research side all the way through the clinical side and clinical applications of the biofield. With that, thank you very much. Each panel member, it's great to have you here as part of the summit. To get going, I want to have each of you provide a brief introduction of yourself. I think this will help our viewers right out of the gate have a sense of who you are and the type of work you've been doing. And then after your brief introduction, we'll launch into our discussion. Of course, during the discussion, you'll have much more time to share with us your work. So I'd like to begin in this order, Dr. Bengston and then Dr. Duncey, then Reverend Barsoady and then Dr. Jan. So we'll begin with you, Bill. And then when you're done, we'll move on to you, Ross and then Tiffany and Shomini. So let's begin the introductions. Thanks and hi, everybody. Thanks for coming. This hopefully will be extremely interesting. My background is in healing research. I've been doing that for, I think, 105 years. I'm gonna do it maybe another 30 or 40. Most of the research I do is laboratory-based. I just, actually, now I've finished my 19th and 20th mouse experiment. I primarily have done experiments on cancer. I get some reasonably interesting results. And I'm looking at this point, my particular focus is, can we make healing conventional and practical and take it out of the crazy side? And I don't mean that by the people, but people considering it crazy make it mainstream. My background is in statistics. I do numbers. I'm also the president of the Society for Scientific Exploration. This is a group of people, researchers, scientists from 27 countries who are interested in anomalies and do rigorous types of applications in anomalies. So thanks and I'm happy to be here. Wonderful. Ross. Thanks, Paul. I'm Ross Dunceith. I'm an electrical engineer by background. First got introduced into the world of anomalies as an undergrad student at Duke University back in the day and did some parapsychological biofeedback type research in of all places, the electrical engineering department. There I got introduced to the wild and wonderful world of EEG neuroimaging and went on to get involved in designing and building EEG systems for several years. But I went back to the psychic research world around the year 2000 joining the group at UVA Division of Perceptual Studies where I'm now the co-director of the Westfall neuroimaging lab where we do studies there involving primarily looking at the idea that mind can exist independent of the brain. And so DOPS has got reincarnation research going on and we do studies with mediums. I've been involved in psychokinesis type studies where we're trying to do combined neuroimaging with EEG and neuroinfrared spectroscopy have found some interesting things so far with that. But I've also joined up with the Monroe Institute which is just south of Charlottesville. Monroe Institute's been around for about 50 years, was started by Robert Monroe who was having profound out-of-body experiences and went on to start an institute that was researching and running educational programs for people having all kinds of experiences including healing. In the process of doing that, I have now started some biofield measurements and that's one thing I can talk about today. Wonderful. Yeah, so it's in it in a nutshell. That's a lot of fascinating material. I'm very much hoping you can get to that. We will get to much of it. Tiffany, tell us about yourself and your work and interest in the biofield. Thank you, this is so much fun. I love hearing, I know Bill and Ross you're new to me and yet what you do is not new and so it's fascinating and thank you. I was actually one of those kids that could move objects but I could only do it when I was mad. It took anger in order to make things actually happened for me. Anyway, I was, I'm Tiffany Barsotti and really been mostly a healer. I went to graduate seminary school and studied with Carolyn Mason-Norm Shealy for many years and there was a lot of EEG and a lot of different gear that we were using. So I have really been looking at in the last few years how do we use subtle energy devices in our clinical practices in order to be able to visualize the invisible because what I find is that it's very empowering for another person to be able to see that there really is something to the field and the way it presented itself to me as a child is a lot of information and I would see it in almost like cloud formations of information and then be able to speak about what it is that I was seeing to much annoyance of people that weren't asking the question, of course. And so it was very present to me and then I willed it away for many other unknown, I mean, many other reasons that we won't get into today but the focus of really finding a way to be able to tell this story, this energetic story because it's very real. Real indeed, thank you Tiff. Shamani, of course, all the viewers of the summit are familiar with you already but please give us a background on your interest in the biofield. Thank you, Paul. Well, my background is in psychoneuroimmunology. I did my doctoral work at UC San Diego with an incredible mentor. You may have heard of him, his name is Paul Mills. So Paul was my graduate mentor. Really can't say enough amazing things about that experience of working with him. And I conducted, went on as a clinical psychologist. My interest has always been how can these therapies help patients? How can they help mitigate suffering in patients where other current solutions really aren't working well? And unfortunately we know that's a lot. It's chronic disease, it's mental health. There are a lot of approaches that are being used but sometimes not as successfully as we would like. So in my journey of conducting randomized controlled clinical trials on things like cancer related fatigue with these biofield healing approaches, looking at it for PTSD. And most recently we looked at the effects of distant sound healing for anxiety during the pandemic. Throughout that journey I became acquainted with more and more researchers that were studying this who needed support because as Bill and others have mentioned this is still considered not very mainstream even though the data is very real. So we formed the non-profit collaborative the consciousness and healing initiative to help support the scientists in community ideally also in fundraising to help support research. And I've just been really pleased at how amazing the community continues to be both the scientists and healers that are working together to advance this field. So that's a little bit of my background. Wonderful, thank you. So Tiffany mentioned the word subtle energy it reminds me of some of your work Ross and the question is, does biofield healing as we know it involve something called subtle energy or is it something else? Right, the big question. So there's a bit of a debate going on about this, I know out there. And I would have to say in my experiences which I can talk a little bit about it looks to me like there is actually a subtle energy but now there can be other interpretations of it. I know one interpretation is oh, this is just basically mind affecting matter. There is no carrier so to speak like a subtle energy but it's energetic, the response, the effect is energetic and I have witnessed firsthand physical healing. You know, if that's not an energetic effect I don't know what is. So I got interested in this also partly because in our PK studies I noticed that some people seem to be generating large voltages or electric fields near their bodies and I was going to the MC Square program at Monroe with my box of sensors and saw this effect. I mentioned it to Joe Gallenberger who is the facilitator of that program and he showed me a very interesting little, it's almost like a parlor trick I guess in a way. We went down in the basement where it was damp, a tile floor, there's no possibility of static electricity affecting this. He got himself into the right mode and was able to light a fluorescent light holding his hand next to it. I had a little static meter that I held near him and it was registering a few hundred volts of static electricity on him. That got my interest and then I saw it again, there's a guy named Ed Edwards who some people may have heard of. He calls himself an energy therapist. He's got a lot of electrical stuff going on.  I mean the voltage level is going up and up and up and then we would put other staff members in the exact same position and ask them to do that and nobody could. So clearly, you know, Ed Edwards is doing some strange electrical thing. I could say more about what he's doing because we often have equipment failures when he's in the lab. I've heard of that kind of phenomenon. In fact, I've witnessed it quite a bit where certain people have endless problems with their computers and their phones and so forth. Bill, you wanted to chime in. Yeah, I'm gonna take a skeptical point of view. I come from a skeptical background which doesn't mean I don't think the phenomenon are real. I just, I have to question and try to refute everything I say out loud too. So I have this little bird on my shoulder that's always yelling at me going, no, that's not right, you know, and it gets exhausting. I have no, first of all, in terms of, Paul, your question of subtle energy, I've seen responses very, very often in the lab which aren't subtle. You know, these are, you know, subtle energy conveys the idea that, well, it's a little thingy here and there.  But my questioning is the idea of energy. I don't, in any way, dispute what Ross is describing as having a change in voltage and all those kinds of things and I suspect that that is a reasonably widespread kind of human phenomenon, that we have these kind of changes in the physical space and on the body, et cetera, et cetera. But I don't know how much of that is actually having to do with healing. And so I would make a distinction between a psychokinetic effect and a healing effect. And healing, if you're just looking gross terms, I mean, I can't make sense out of it even though I have a boatload of experiments in it. One of the things that doesn't seem to matter in healing is distance. So if I do an experiment with a cage of mice and I'm holding the actual cage, I get X effect. If I do it cross-country and I don't have the cage, I get the same X effect. How does an energy do that without diminishing in strength? And I just start flopping on the floor wondering about that. And I don't have the answer, but it doesn't correspond to the conventional idea of what energy might be. And so how does it also target so I can have cage X and cage Y and it's across the country, and cage X will be effected and cage Y won't. That's crazy talk to me. It doesn't mean it doesn't happen. I produce it in the laboratory. I put in reliable effects in the laboratory, but I can't reconcile that with the notion of energy, at least insofar as an energy that I understand subtle or not. And I'll zip it. Thanks, that's fascinating. Hadn't considered this idea of differentiating the healing aspects of certain energies on our body versus the psychokinetic and so forth. Vachamani, you wanted to jump in. This is such an important point. And Bill, I know you and I have had some discussions on this, especially when we explore energy healing at a distance. So what do we actually know from the data? We know that energy healing works for patients. We know that it works beyond a placebo, looking at placebo, very well controlled placebo trials. We also know that because it works on cells, right? It works in animal models. And as Bill said, it works at a distance. And I'm just reminded by the definition of a biofield that was put forth at NIH in the 90s, of course, spearheaded by a great pioneer in biofield research, Dr. Beverly Rubick, who I know all of you are familiar with here on this panel. And they describe the biofield as a maskless field, not necessarily electromagnetic, a field of energy and information. And Bill, you're absolutely right. What's fascinating is that this so-called energy seems to have an intelligence. And we've seen this in your lab and others' labs, including the Gloria Granawick's lab, recent research that is now coming out of Dr. Hemal Patel's lab at UCSD, Lorenzo Cohen's lab at MD Anderson Cancer Center, and more, where, for example, they're looking at healing and healers that are working with cells that are healthy and the cells tend to grow, that is, they proliferate, right? And then they look at the same healer doing the same type of healing on cells that have cancer and the cells diminish. That is, they don't proliferate. They go in the opposite direction. So what I'm curious about is why as scientists, and I think as people, we often are always focused on it's one versus the other, you know, instead of saying, perhaps there's a both and, maybe there's a local effect and a non-local effect, maybe it's energetic as we describe energy as something that moves and, you know, does work and drops off at a distance, maybe there is some sort of energetic effect, but also an informational effect, which may not have to do with the way we describe energy. So my question really to the panelists couldn't be both. And, you know, Tiffany, I'd love to hear what your perspective is on this. Indeed, Tiff. Thank you. And I agree with Bill saying it's anything but subtle. This energy is not subtle and it's ubiquitous. We just don't necessarily have a way to quantify it in the visible range in the way that science really says, if seeing is believing, then it is not seeing, not believing. And I think these kind of go together. But to pick up on what you guys were speaking on, on these, the intelligence and information is, this is a question for all of us to think about and would love to hear each of your answers, is intention information in itself that also gives the direction for where it was going to, you know, maybe tease out. And I also think that resonance plays a role. But when you're talking about mice in one cage and mice in another cage, they're not thinking, oh, I'm gonna receive this healing right now. They're not thinking that way. Whereas people that I've had on my table, I make sure that they're, or as much as I can, have an influence, that there is a receptivity to that intention and that resonance for what is being offered. Please, Shawmini and Bill. When you were saying that, Tiff, it reminded me of an anecdote, if you will, that Lorenzo Cohen shared with the work that he's been doing with these mice with cancer and looking at the effects of healing and what you noticed, this was work he did with Sean Harabans, who many of you may know. Ross, maybe you looked at him in other contexts in parapsychology. Whenever Sean would go near the cage where the mice were, the mice would crowd around, it was the darndest thing. And Lorenzo actually took video of it. And of course, being a scientist, Lorenzo said, well, let's figure this out. Is it any man that kind of looks like Sean? I mean, so he would put other men that were sort of same height, same build, you know, same weight in front of the cage and the mice wouldn't crowd around. But when Sean Harabans would come in after they had received healing from this, the mice would run to him right away. Bill, let's go to you and then I have a question for Ross. I think there's a lot of power in the idea of thinking of healing as information. And I don't know how fungible information and energy might be, but I think they all have to be worked in there. I don't mean throwing out energy with the baby with the bath, but I don't think we can say, oh, it's energy and then we're all happy. I've done the same stuff with mice. If I've got mice in a cage and they need help, they're gonna go to my left hand. We do this in a variety of labs that drives the people crazy. We spin the cage, that doesn't make mice happy, but we spin the cage and we stop and we put our hands down and they always move to the left hand. Now, here's the interesting part. They only move to the left hand while they have a need. And once the need is over, it doesn't happen anymore. And I suspect this is an underlying theme that I can take you on a journey if you want to, not only with mice, but also cell cultures and also with placebo's and a variety of other things. That healing might be driven not by the healer, but by the healee. And that if there is a need, something happens. Now that doesn't deny that there are people like Sean who can psychokinetically do this or that or you know, and all that, I don't minimize that at all. But I think a good chunk of healing, and I don't know the proportion of the chunk, but a good chunk of healing is really driven by the healee. And so we have mice, if the mice are healthy and you put your hands around the cage, they look at you like, why are you doing this? If they have cancer, they go looking for the left hand and they move to the left hand. Once they're cured, they don't go to the left hand anymore. Now I got cell culture growths and such using the same idea. We have bacteria and we treat bacteria that have no need, nothing really happens. You know, we don't get the psychokinetic effect of large growth curves and all those kinds of things. Just the bacteria look at me like the mice do, like what do you want? But if you harm a cell and we put them through scratch tests, the cells will, they'll genomically change. I'm gonna leave out the details. They'll genomically change only after they've been hurt. The cells themselves, you put your hands around nothing, but if you, in effect, make the cells sick or have the cells with a need, the cells are the drivers of the healing. The mice are the drivers of the healing and you guys have more clinical experience than I do. So maybe it's similar in people.  But I like a follow-up question on that, please, Bill, because what is it about the mice who are in some kind of healing need that are attracted to the left hand? What are they seeing? What are they assuming will come from that hand versus a right hand of a person? I don't know. And I've drawn a bunch of EEGs and functional MRIs and do that, trying to figure out, are we left-side dominant, are we right-side dominant, where in the brain does this or that? And the answer is I don't know, but they'll go to this spot on the hand. And if you have a bunch of mice in the cage and I did a movie, it's reasonably interesting, they'll actually take turns. So they'll go into a circle. It's like the little circle dance and they'll put their tumor as close as possible to this spot on the hand. And then if one mouse sits there and gets really selfish, the others will go like, hey, come on, buddy, move on, move on. It's my turn. And they just rotate as long as they have a need. Fascinating.  Do you have an answer to this phenomenon? Well, I have a proposal and I know you wanna get to Ross, but while we're on this topic, I think it's relevant. So I'm trained as also a chronic healer amongst many other modalities and also in Rudolph Steiner's model. They speaks to the left hand and I also did years of thermography, measuring hand chakras. And the hand chakras of where the thermal imaging is coming out because they are very exactly where you just pointed, Bill. These are notable in people who are doing active healing. So they pop right out. Now in chronic healing, our left hand becomes the receiver hand. The right hand becomes the working hand with which we are taking out information. And I totally agree with you that all healing is self-healing, out information or adding to. But that's just to give the right hand something to do because the direction is actually coming through into the left hand. So really, we only need to do that, but this is why they call it hand waving, right? Because we end up doing a lot of hand waving. So that's at least in the esoteric understanding. I can't give you the mechagnism, but Rudolph Steiner spoke about the receptivity and how it is that you make these linkages as above so below, as below, as so above. And the Hermeticists also spoke about this activity happening and being able to direct mental energy through the palm chakra of the left hand. That's all I'll say. That's great information. We've been speaking a bit about the healies and the healers. Ross, I know you've done work on healers and you've identified some unique aspects of their physiology. Is that all the time or is that when they're in the midst of doing healing or both? Well, yeah, that's actually sort of the question I'm trying to get at. First of all, I have to agree with Bill. You know, there is this distance issue and the information issues. So clearly this is more complicated than just an electric field that's appearing on somebody. However, these electric fields are unusual and they may be correlates to some sort of effect. I don't know. What I can say about healers is over the years in running PK studies, we often get healers who are also adept at psychokinetically influencing electronic sensors. So clearly they've got something going on there with that and then that's sort of where it stands right now. We've got all this sort of smoke going on. We ran a kind of a pilot study at Monroe with just taking Monroe participants and by and large, they are a self-selective population of people who are having experiences and want to learn more about them. We just simply asked them to stand in our measuring environment, which I should quickly say was a replication of Elmer Green's work that was done in the 1980s and 1990s. It was called the Copper Wall Room Series. What they did was they set up a experimental chamber that had an insulated floor and they had some copper walls on the walls. Basically the idea here was they're insulating a person from the environment. So if there's some sort of subtle charge movement in the body or charge accumulation from the environment, it would tend not to bleed off and you can measure it with some accuracy. So we were running that study and it's a very delicate measurement. You have to really watch out for artifact, static electricity in the environment, all that stuff. But with our best effort, we found that a lot of people, if they simply are just standing there for 15 or 20 minutes and visualizing energy flowing through their body, you will see this potential rise. And it's anomalous. I mean, there's no known physiological explanation for somebody that's got 5, 10, 15, 70 volts of potential appearing on their body, which is what Ed Edwards did. And his healing partner got 50 and then we had a medium from Dopp's who came down and on demand could get 15 volts and said it was from his heart chakra. So, you know, I consider it a correlate. Is it a necessary condition for healing? I bet you probably not, but this is sufficient. I don't know. When some of these people are getting high voltages, we also see a random number generator go off randomness, which tends to say, oh, there's some sort of an informational aspect to this as well. And they're setting up some kind of field around themselves. And I've had some personal experiences with that as well. So correlates maybe. Coralates, thank you. That's fascinating. I hadn't heard about that aspect because I wondered where is that energy coming from at least for the one person, the medium, said the heart chakra. Shamini, you're a scientist, but you've also trained in the healing arts, how to work with the chakras and so forth. What is subtle energy to you and how does that fit into what we're describing so far? Well, you know, this has been around for millennia, right? The subtle energy aspect of what we call the biofield now in Western science has been known and has been used in self healing approaches and self other healing approaches for so long in pretty much every culture around the world. So for me, as both a practitioner and a scientist, I look to those traditions and the knowledge based behind those traditions to understand, learn more and make connections. And you know, to me, I'll share, I'm doing more teaching now, teaching the healing keys out of my new book that was recently released by Sounds True. The third part of that book is all practical. And I'll tell you, you know, we just finished a workshop the other day, I was teaching at Sivananda Ashram, Sivananda Ashram in the Bahamas, beautiful place and healing in and of itself, right? Interestingly, as we did these practices, we had several people say, I have no pain. I've been suffering from chronic fatigue for over seven years. And today's the first day I've been without pain. And as a psychologist, I sort of put that layer on top of it. And I remind people that your energy has always been here. What we call your subtle energy, whether we define it as chi, prana, ki, whatever we describe, it's your field. It's your biofield. Some of it we can measure, some of it we can't. There's a very strong connection between the emotions and the vital force as, you know, has been described in Vedic and other traditions. So what I'm really excited about as a clinician and a teacher is just for people where this is really new and they think, oh, well, energy healing is that thing that like I have to go to a Reiki practitioner or whatever is helping them understand how they can connect with their own field in a moment to moment basis, whether that's meditation, Tai Chi, Chi Gong, so many practices and how they can tune into the energy of their emotions even. Notice if anything has been stuck literally in the field of the body and allow it to move. And we see these really wonderful healing effects that occur and it's not magic. It's not something someone even has to do to you. It's just something that you have to learn about to be aware of. So that's where I get really excited about the so-called subtle aspects is it's something that's available to everyone. You don't have to be an adept practitioner for years and years to be able to access the flow of energy in your body. That is for me a beautiful take home point for what will be this entire panel that people can do their own healing on themselves, don't have to have extensive endless years of training. Tiffany, a question, your perspective on what subtle energy is, I know you have a deep experience in these areas and how does that relate to the healing going on? I'm agreeing with everyone here and the subtle energy, like I said, I don't feel it is so subtle. And it's, you know, we have evidence of it when we get into a field relationship with someone else and it's like, oh, I don't like that or I do like that. We can make an instant sort of felt sense about the energy that's around us. And yes, there are tools that are now starting to emerge in the field with, you know, maybe it's measuring it, you don't really know. We do feel that there are things that are happening, but do we have explanations for them all? Maybe not so clearly yet from a scientific point of view, but there are shifts. And from a healing perspective, also with, and I think it's fascinating, Ross Elmer Green was one of my mentors and we had the copper room, the copper wall at Holos. So I've sat in front of that wall and doing self-healing because there was a lot that needed to happen for me, in particular, I was living across the street from ground zero and recovering from an illness when I eventually went to Holos. So sitting in front of the copper wall actually was an incredible meditative experience that sometimes it was super energetic and uncomfortable and other times it was really peaceful. And I think it was also what I brought into that field myself, besides maybe even what was there as thought forms or other things that were going on in that environment. It was a fairly large room. And also I think that what's also playing a role in this and it is measurable is AC and DC energy. And I've played with some tools as a healer and I think that there's a differentiation with people who were able to move DC energy as direct current rather than an alternating current. And maybe you all have something more to say on that, but when I was playing with some of those tools myself, that's when I noticed a shift in using some of the skills that I've worked with. So it's subtle, but it's not so subtle. Okay, Ross, and then I have a question for Bill. Just a quick response about the AC-DC issue. Now in Elmer Green's work, they had the DC offset that they measured. That's the 50, 70 volt part that I was talking about. They also had an AC aspect that they saw, which was that on occasion. And this was mostly in healers where they saw this. The voltage would drop down. Normally this is a positive offset. It would drop down to zero over a span of about five to 15 seconds and then go back up to the high level it was. So they called them pulses. They actually worked up a equivalent dipole model for this was published in the SSE journal, SGE, IJSE, excuse me. And when was that, about 1990. And it involves, it's either a vast movement of charge in the body in an alternating way. In a dynamic way. Or else it's an influx of charge coming into the body. Either way, I don't think anybody really knows what's going on with this. But one other comment about the AC part is that there have been some really interesting low frequency measures of people, especially Qigong practitioners, DC, not DC, but AC magnetic fields, usually around the hands. So we've been speaking about energy, the effects of intention on energy, perhaps some of the energy coming out of different chakras in the body. Bill, you had posed a question on the webpage. Can energy healing, can healing be stored? And the question is for you, can it be stored? And if it can be, where is it stored? Is it stored in the physical body? Is it in some aspect of the biofield, the chakras? What does your work taught you about that? The short answer is, and I say this as a skeptic, yes, it can be stored. I have so many replications that even I have to give up.  Your question though is exactly the right one. In what can it be stored and what does it mean to store? And so I have ample data that depends on how much you want me to go into this. I have ample data that shows that it can be stored in inorganic material. So for example, water. We can take water and infuse, use these loosely, infuse intention into it and that intention can do work. I have a whole bunch of water experiments. We can do this inorganic material and so I know it can be stored in cotton. I know it can be stored in lab medium that in cells that are grown. I know it can be stored in life itself. And so for example, a mouse will have the storage of the healing information in it once it's been treated and they can transfer this to another mouse via blood transfusion and carry over the healing. I almost said signal. I don't know what I'm carrying over. And so I'm reasonably confident at least in terms of mice, in terms of cotton, in terms of water, in terms of cell medium, I don't know the limits on what it can be stored in, but it seems to be pretty widespread. What it's stored in and what holds together the effect on a mouse versus effect on just water past my pay grade. And so I transitioned since I've been looking at this for 130 years. I would give Ross's right arm to get the answers to any of the questions raised here. No offense, Ross, but it's for a good cause. But if we store it, we can also make it practical. Yeah, very much so, but I have to ask, I know you've been doing this for 130 years, published a lot on it. What would it take for you as far as evidence from let's say your own studies or another for you to just transition from being kind of this endless skeptic that you describe yourself into somebody who's like, okay, this is actually real and it's going on. Oh, I have no question that it's real and going on. At this point, no matter how thick and slow I am, it's real. I don't even find whether or not healing is real to be an interesting question. And I completely lose patience for people to go, do you believe this stuff? And my answer is no, I don't believe it. It is, give me a break. I'd be like someone come up to me and say, do you believe in gravity? And I go, well, you know, I'm not decided yet. How gravity works is the interesting scientific question that it does work and we can use it to produce work is the application. So your skepticism is around the mechanisms and so forth. Yeah, the simpler explanations. Thanks for clarifying that. So there's a big question I'm going to ask you first, Tiffany, we haven't really addressed this. What exactly is the biofield? And what is it doing there? What does it do for our physicality? Wow, okay. So my presence with it and what I observe, it's kind of like, and I find this fascinating from an astrophysics point of view, we can see all of these layers around the earth, the troposphere, the ionosphere, the magnetosphere, they all have different properties and they have different ways of measuring it. There's a beginning and a middle and an end to these fields. You do different things and this is well known and well understood in the launching of satellites and what exactly is fear and where you're gonna go and all of those sort of things. So there's sort of been a territory mapped and I believe that there's, if the adage holds true, as above, so below, as below, so above, my sense of is when I am working on perception, tuning into the mental aspect of somebody's field, tuning into an emotional aspect of somebody's field or tighter to the body, the etheric, which is where in my training and understanding and my experience of are the chakras and some of the meridians that are also in that etheric sort of template. And so the field, the biofield to me is made up of all of these properties that have all of these constituents in them that are unique from level to level. And there's different, with intention, you work on yourself and with others at a specific area or a specific need. And I totally agree with what the mice have taught us that they're only gonna come or the cells have taught us that they're only, there's only a need when there's a need. And so to do things just for sport, it's like, ah, don't make a mockery of me, right? Like, let's use this field in a collective way. And then also the collective of the entire field are all of those properties added up together. So that's my two cents. The thing that I'm curious about and what took me to graduate seminary and to study with norm is what are the mechanisms of action because I could see always since I was a kid, stuff happens out here. It doesn't necessarily need to take place in the physical. So if we can handle something that's out in the field, wow, that's so much more helpful. Let's not have it be deposited in our body to become something. Let's fix it in the field first or work with it. And then of course, if the tumor needs to be your teacher then that's the trajectory of karmic experiences. But anyway, that's what I have to say about that. I can go on, but I won't. Thank you. Shawmini, question for you and it looks like you have something else you want to add anyway but my question will be, you founded the consciousness and healing initiative some years back. It's devoted to helping us understand the bio field, consciousness itself and healing. What research has yet to be done that needs to be done to really get us as a next step, a significant next step and all these things we're speaking about on the panel. Well, just to cap on what Tiffany was saying earlier when someone asked what the bio field is, it's like asking what consciousness is and there are whole conferences and books devoted to the subject and I tried to tackle this a little bit in my book but the truth is nobody fully agrees just like nobody fully agrees what consciousness is. You've heard us debating about energy and information. Here's what we know though, as Tiffany was saying, we can look at it in different levels of scale and that's what's going on now. So it's almost bio fields with a plural I would say because we can look at the bio field of a cell, the bio field of a person, the bio field of an interaction between people, even the connection of us with the earth and those are all ways that we're studying bio fields right now. So to your question, Paul, with the consciousness and healing initiative, we bring together scientists on a regular basis to explore what do we currently know and what do we need to do to advance the field of research? There's probably about 125 randomized control trials on bio field healing approaches, things like Reiki, Healing Touch, including energy psychology practices, a lot of data there as well. That may sound like a lot, but it's actually not. When you look at how things like mindfulness and other approaches have really become mainstream, it's because they did rest on a preponderance of evidence. With all of the beautiful studies we've been talking about today, they're just coming out of a couple of labs. So there has to be greater investment in the field, both with cells, with animals, for people who do animal research, but also with humans, right? Because the payoff is great. I think for all of us, what is, I'll just speak for myself, what's fascinating about the bio field is that it teaches us how deeply we're connected. And that's something that we're kind of moving out of this rhetoric of separatism where these disconnected bodies, we're disconnected from our emotions, we're disconnected from each other, all totally false. And the bio field helps us understand how deeply we're connected. So if we invest in this research and supporting the scientists and practitioners who are doing the work, then the payoffs are great for humanity because we basically wake up to our full healing capacity. And that's the vision of our collaborative at the Consciousness and Healing Initiative. So as you know, so many of you are working tirelessly on different areas to educate people on the bio field, to do the research, and we wanna support everyone as much as possible to move together cohesively and, you know, as a human family. Beautiful, I wanna emphasize that was a great point again for the panel and take home point that we are indeed actually all connected, deeply, intimately connected, more oneness and separation. And the bio field as we understand it more and can get there as far as the science, science is always behind personal experiences, we'll have all that more as a realization. Tiff, did you wanna add to that? And then I have a question for Ross. And Bill. No, I was just championing what Shamini was saying. It's absolutely, it's just so true and it's right on. Yes. Great, so here's my question and this would help us get to a next step and this has to do with the fact that we don't really currently have devices to fully completely quantify and measure the bio field. Something like an FMRI, for example, some devices, and I know Ross and Bill, you've been at this a long time. What's your understanding of where the development of such devices is? Are you aware of anything in the works? Well, I'll just jump in here. I have to say that there's all kinds of stuff out there that people make that they claim might be measuring the bio field and that's tough to weed through all that stuff. There's probably hidden gems in it. It needs more work, evaluation. The strategy I've been pursuing is to try to use multiple sensors and cover the aspect because I totally agree that there's an informational aspect to this but there also seems to be a manifestation if something is doing work that involves energy and so there's a manifestation of some kind of energy as well. So I just try to cover it all. Sooner or later, some brilliant young genius is gonna come up with the thing that gets us over to whatever it is because one other comment I'd like to make is if it can be stored as Bill is describing then what is it? Cicely. Bill, can you tell us a little bit more about that work you've done in storing? You mentioned storing, I know in water. You said from your own research and you also mentioned cotton. Can you give us a bit of insight into some of that research? I'm not familiar with it. Well, and it's not just, I'm looking right now, I'm focusing on scalable systems. So even if for example, you can store healing in cotton, if you have to keep treating cotton like it's a client, it's not stored, if cotton doesn't charge other cotton, it doesn't become scalable. And what I'd like to have happen and I think the way to make healing accepted and conventional is to be able to mass produce it so that like you would have a vitamin. You need a vitamin, well, here's a pill. You need a battery, well, here's a battery. You need, I mean, all of these, we're storing stuff all the time and we're used to it. There's a couple things going on. If we're talking about moving into the clinical area, there is an inexhaustible supply of people in pain.  How do we get it out there and really let it happen? Well, a couple of ways. I'm working on a mass-producible system. This is different than a helometer. It's a mass-producible system that will take a particular healing intention and put it into water and have that water reproduce the original intention. That is going great guns. It seems that water is a wonderful mechanism for story. When we have a mouse that's been cured of cancer or that's been treated for cancer and it's on its way to being cured and we have the blood in that that is, I'm using loosely, it's stored in the mouse, we can take that mouse and use that mouse to donate to other mice and those other mice will be cured. You can see screaming here. We have the possibility of making a vaccine. The analog to a vaccine, except a healing vaccine. And what I don't know is whether the healing becomes a generic offering from which the healee who I think strives this takes what they need.  But it turns out today you needed vitamin D so you're absorbing the vitamin D. It turns out tomorrow you need the vitamin C, you're taking the vitamin C. I think of healing as close to analogous like white light and you need blue. Well, blue is a subtraction from white light. Green is a different subtraction from white light. What do you need? That's not my problem as a healer. It's also not the healee's problem because that would imply that they know. I think the body knows. I don't sit there and say, well, I'm gonna concentrate on digesting my food now. I just digest my food. I don't think the body's consciously digest the healing. I think they just digest the healing. I think it's an analogous way there. A scalable system, something that I have published in a bunch and actually just had an acceptance today on a good journal is, can we record the intention itself? And now we're getting into more abstracts of, can we record the intention? If the recording actually is reproducing the initial effect, a recording could be globally scalable. So I've got in vitro studies on cancer cells where I take healing intention being recorded in a very elaborate system and it's not a secret. It's just kind of too much to talk about here. And I actually have a recording system and that recording system reproduces the effect on the cancer cells or that recording reproduces the effects on the mice or that recording reproduces the effects on a person, it becomes globally scaled. Now it turns out, you can make a technology. I can even give you a proportion of how close it's come to a human application. The recording changes the cells. It changes the mice. It changes the people. It changes, it works. It does not replicate fully the effect of a human intervention yet, but that's a technological problem. How do we make it better? We can put it out there, dissect it, make it better, tweak it, and that's my ongoing series of experiments to do it. A recording is scalable. Charge cotton, not so much. I'd like to see some translation of those findings of yours out into the real world as soon as possible. Yeah. Tiffany, you've done a lot of work with chronic healing which I know involves using different colors for healing the person. They don't know which color they need, but you offer a variety of colors. I imagine you've had experience seeing this phenomenon that Bill was just describing, that the person, the body, the field begins to pull in that color, which they're needing at that particular time. Can you speak on that? Sure. In chronic healing in particular, and I also believe that Shalmini had something to add to Bill's discussion, but it's like almost a cookbook model. There's recipes that you might do, and oftentimes there's lots of them. So there's protocols that are somewhat built in. I at times with people have needed to adjust because I'm just being tuned probably to that person's field for what is the actual need. And I may make a slight adjustment, not a huge adjustment because there's richness in doing things in a protocolized way. And there's something I would like to add to what Bill's saying because it's really nice to have the cooperation of the body in healing, but I've also worked with people where the mind fights it and is not allowing that to fully take place in the human and obviously mice are not gonna argue with the receptivity of what they're getting, but in the human form, people just saying in their mind, there's nothing here, there's nothing that's gonna work here. So there's like different hurdles to get over. And in which case that we would also use different colors in chronic psychotherapy, for instance. So there's different colors that you would use and also almost with an opacity that besides the color, it's the intensity. It's like you're adding a pigment almost and or taking away a pigment. So the more refined the energy, the more pastel it gets. The denser the area of where we need to work, if it was, I did some self-culture things earlier on and there's delicacy, but there's also a time where you really need to use a very rich, like full pigmented color. So it is, there's intelligence in that. There's information in that. Fascinating. Chamonix. So I'm gonna try to be brief. Bill, when I was listening to you, I first of all just, wow, what amazing work you have continued to put forth to just expand our minds about what is possible and how all of this works. So thank you and thank Ross, all of you for all of the incredible work you continue to do. I was just sort of playing out in my mind what happens if we realize this achievement, that you're suggesting that we can make this really scalable and how could we do that and you proposed a way, right? Maybe it's through mediums, maybe it's some sort of energetic vaccine and as a clinician, I was just carrying that all the way forward for myself. And I realized that maybe to Tiffany's point, she mentioned there has to be readiness of the Healy. We talked about how the Healy is often really probably driving these effects in the first place. So the question of how do we make this sustainable? How do we make healing sustainable for everyone? It just, it occurred to me that one thing we haven't really talked about that I've heard from pretty much every healer I talk to is what this is, is that these are all energy healers, biofield healers, various traditions and the only thing that they have really in common, they see the field differently, they feel the field differently, some of them hear the field, lots of differences in the way that they perceive it. But the one commonality is they say, I'm not doing the healing, so we all kind of have heard that before. What I am doing is working with the person's biofield to connect them back to their higher self, their spirit, consciousness, however they describe it. And I talk about this in my book because I talk about the biofield being a bridge between the spiritual and the physical and we haven't really touched on the spiritual today, but when I think about sustainability, I think about this white light that you mentioned, Bill, the ability for us to connect in with the larger field of the interconnectedness of who we are through, and I will call it spiritual practice. I will not call it just mind-body practice, I will not just call it therapy. Sure, all of those are effective, but we can do yoga and call it a mind-body practice and guess what? That's the effect we're gonna see. We can do yoga and actually approach it as a spiritual practice as well as an energetic practice and experience that. So in terms of sustainability, we could have an energy vaccine, but if we don't have people that are able to reconnect in with our spiritual nature, we won't be able, I think, to be able to prevent disease, prevent mental suffering in the way that we could if we utilize the biofield to its best and highest purpose, and this is just my opinion, to reconnect people back to their soul and their spirit, then I think we could actually achieve the goal of health sustainability, but that's just my opinion. As an opinion, we all very much appreciate it, I think. Anybody would like to weigh in on that and Chamonix's comments and perspective? Yeah, I agree with her. I would like to know what it is. If we have spirituality as connection, I think healing is connection. I've got a bunch of research and publications on what do you call it, resonance, the resonance phenomenon, which I think is transient. So we can be connected and we can be disconnected.  It's not the dog, it's the same dog, but the connection is there or the connection is not there. I think healing fosters connection or connection fosters healing, I'm not sure which way it should go. It may not matter, but I think they are roughly the same thing. And I would take it out into the practical world though and sorry to go off from the spiritual part and take certain phenomena such as placebo effects. I don't know that placebo effects are psychological. I suspect that placebo effects might be connection, but it's connection between physically separate groups, in which case you got a boatload of misinterpretation of data. Just like if you have experimental effects, you have misinterpretation of data. If you have conditioned space, you have misinterpretation of data. And I think that there's reasonable evidence to suggest all those things are real. There are experimental effects. Some people get different responses and others. There are conditioned space phenomena. I'll give you a quick example. This is a study at Brown University. We were looking at the effects of a healing recording on cancer cells in vitro. And we had reliable 68 genomic changes, seven iterations of the thing. We had reliable genomic changes in the cancer cells and all of that. One of the things we didn't publish was when we play the recording inside an incubator, the incubator now has the ability to heal. And so we've waited three days later and stuck cancer cells into the incubator and not run the recording and you get the same genomic changes. Wow. That's reasonably interesting. I didn't publish that because it was in a conventional biology journal. And I don't know if you know any biologists. They're not the most open to these ideas. So I showed that healing happens. I showed that healing can be stored. I showed that it can be replicated. I showed, I showed, I showed. But I didn't touch the idea of conditioned space because that would, frankly, screw up almost any biology laboratory. And I think biology laboratories are screwed up with the conditioned space of previous experiments.  And certain of our faith-based, you know, you talk about me as a skeptic, I'm also skeptical of the assumptions under which we work scientifically. So an experiment presupposes that physical separateness means independence. I'm a skeptic. I think there's action at a distance, in which case, try to interpret the data. Indeed. All that. Tiffany and Shamini, you have two giants of the field here with you. This is an opportunity to ask them any question you want to that we haven't gotten to so far. Anything, Tiff, Shamini? Sure. I mean, it's a question for all of you, actually. We know that this field is still considered woo by mainstream science and medicine. We know a lot of people listening to this may be very intrigued. A lot of us might be listening to this and just being a kind of state of disbelief, right? The doubting, you've experienced this throughout your life and your work and your research, trying to publish papers and all of this. What keeps you going? What keeps each of you going and so passionate about this field as I am? I mean, I know people think I'm passionate about the field, but I know each of you are equally, if not more passionate about this field as me and so many of you. I would love to hear from each of you. What keeps you going with this work? Let's start with Ross. Okay, well, it's two things, really. One of them is personal experience. As I mentioned, I got started in psychic research back at Duke and, I don't know, like Bill, a hundred years ago. And I witnessed some very wild stuff that convinced me right from the get-go. There's something going on here. And that has gone on through the years. I continue to have interesting encounters, so, but that's part two of my answer is the people that I meet who are having these experiences. It's been especially rich at the Monroe Institute because the people that are coming through, they're fascinating and interesting. They are into making that spiritual connection that Shamini is talking about and they have a phenomenon that's occurring in conjunction with that. Consciousness Explorers, I guess you could say. And it's absolutely fascinating and I think extremely important for the future of humanity. The whole area is just so endlessly fascinating. And like many people like Ross describes, I got into it from first-person experience.   Life was good before I got cured. And all my experiments do exactly the same thing. So when I was personally cured and it was cured and it has sustained over many, many decades, if when I was personally cured, the curiosity, the antenna went up going, what in heaven's name is going on here? If I got cured, and obviously I'm not a believer, if I got cured, something serious is going on here. This is seriously interesting. Now, when I do an experiment, it's wonderful. I get the exact same mind world blowing up phenomenon because experiments never come out the way I expected. I can generate hypotheses decade after decade and be wrong in every single one of them, which means I don't have any idea how the world works. And I find that to be freeing. I don't have to get behind and be as believer and defendant. So Ross can tell me, you know, you're full of it.  The only issue is of what am I full of? And I love the evolution and finding out that everything we think is real is not. It makes it more interesting out there. So I'm a glutton for punishment. Thank you for that, Tiffany. I just have to just have a moment of appreciation and pure gratitude for all of you and the stick-to-tiveness and the, you know, the spooky action at a distance or not at a distance or wherever it is that we're tracking and just doing the work and being consistent and showing up without biases and without a lot of ideas. And I know there's bias in even being human, but the experience of science is its own teacher. And I just really appreciate the showing up for it for whatever it is. And two things I want to say to answer, to address something that Bill mentioned and then also address Germany's question. I was part of the data analysis team that was putting together details from Joey Jones' lab many years ago, it was a chronic healing and it was a cell culture experiment that was going on. There was a whole set of things that something happens. So this speaks to conditioned space, but these experiments were going on over a period of time. Well, something had taken place in the lab in between all of a sudden, all of the healing stopped. And it was ultimately, I'll keep this very brief, the lab needed to be cleansed. It got really contaminated and polluted. And so we had all this beautiful data and then something shifted and then not until a cleansing took place to make the space actually be set up for healing again, did we see the similar results that we saw at the beginning? So I think that's fascinating. And to answer what Chomney was asking about what keeps me going at least, I mean, I'm young on this trail and I feel like I've also been at it for a little while, but it's just with a great fervor of we don't have it all figured out yet. And how fun that we don't have it all figured out yet that we can make experiments, that we can have dialogue and discussion where science and spirituality are part of the same conversation in order to help us advance where we're going because it is really and both and how we are spiritual beings and we are also physical and have other components and attributes to us to be able to have an effect with. So we still don't have the sensors out there. Maybe Ross, you're really close. I don't know, I'd love to work with you on this. The sensors that can essentially sense and feel what so many of us have already convinced ourselves of the it of what is it that we're a feeling? And I think plasma plays a role. So, and there's different forms of plasma, but I think plasma plays a role both in the water, in our physical structure and in our ionized space. Well, that was lovely for me to hear all the different aspects of what's been driving you all these years, all of you, each of you, your work. There's being the scientists and the endless curiosity but there's also been the personal experience in each of you and observation of experience of others, the biofield that's important to our health and well-being but also that importantly that sense of connectedness and overcoming the illusion of separation that so many people carry around. I want to thank you from the bottom of my heart for taking the time to participate in this panel. It's been just excellent and I'm sure very useful for the viewers of the summit. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you, everybody.


Welcome to the 25th meeting in 2023 of the Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee. I'd like to remind everyone present to please switch to mobile phones to silent. The first item of business is to decide whether to take items 5 and 6 in private. Is the committee content to take these items in private? Under agenda item number 2, we are considering an instrument subject to the affirmative procedure. No points have been raised on the following draft instrument. The Disability Assistance Miscellaneous Amendment Scotland Regulations 2023 is the committee content with this instrument. Under agenda item number 3, we are considering eight instruments subject to the negative procedure. Issues have been raised on five of these instruments. Those are SSIs 2023, 239, 240, 241, 242 and 246. Those form a package of five instruments relating to Scottish Public Sector pension schemes. This is the legislative response to a Court of Appeal decision known as the McLeod judgment on discrimination and transitional protection arrangements. In relation to all five instruments, the committee wished to draw them to the attention of the Parliament on the reporting ground to J, which is the failure to lay the instrument in accordance with the lane requirements under the interpretation and legislative reform at Scotland Act 2010, having breached 28-day requirement. Does the committee wish to indicate that it is content with the explanation provided by the Scottish Government for the breaches of the lane requirement? In relation to SSIs 2023, 239 on police pensions, does the committee wish to draw the instrument to the attention of the Parliament on the reporting ground to H, which is the meaning that could be clearer in that one, the references in regulation 10C, 13, 4, 16B and paragraph 11 of the schedule could be to defined terms and 2 in paragraph 3 of the schedule. The eligible decision maker is a guardian only, but it appears that this should also include a parent. Does the committee wish to draw the instrument to the attention of the Parliament on the general reporting ground in that one to preamble the reference to paragraph 7A of schedule 2 of the 2013 act should be to paragraph 7B? Secondly, in respect of incorrect references in regulation 182 and 241BI and in paragraph 11 of the schedule. Does the committee wish to note that the Scottish Government proposes to correct the error in the preamble by correction slip and to address the other points raised by way of an amending instrument? In relation to SSIs 2023, 240 on local government pensions, does the committee wish to draw the instrument to the attention of the Parliament on the general reporting ground for the erroneous references to the local government pension scheme transitional protection remedy Scotland regulation 2023 in regulations 2, 4, 3, 13, 3, 15, 3, 13, 3, 15 and 13, 4 of the instrument? Does the committee wish to note that the Scottish Government intends to correct the errors by correction slip? In relation to SSIs 2023, 241 on teachers pensions, does the committee wish to draw the instrument to the attention of the Parliament on the reporting ground H? The meaning could be clearer in that, first of all, references in regulation 2, 1, 46, 7 and paragraph 1, 1 of the schedule could be to define terms. Secondly, in paragraph 3 of the schedule, the eligible decision maker is a guardian only, but it appears that this should also include a parent. Does the committee also wish to draw the instrument to the attention of the Parliament on the general reporting ground in respect of incorrect references in regulations 23, 55, 1b, 63, 1c and 64, 2 and 5? Does the committee wish to note that the Scottish Government proposes to address these matters in the next amending instrument? In relation to SSIs 2023, 242 on firefighters pensions, does the committee wish to draw the instrument to the attention of the Parliament on reporting ground I? The effect of drafting in that, first of all, the drafting of regulation 1711 appears to be defective given the error concerning to whom the money is to be paid. Secondly, the drafting of paragraphs 11, 2b, I and 7, 2b of the schedule appears to be defective because these provisions fail to state who the eligible decision maker is. Does the committee also wish to draw the instrument to the attention of the Parliament on reporting ground I? The meaning could be clearer in that references in regulation 10c, 134, 16b, 54, 1b and paragraph 11 of the schedule could be to define terms. In paragraph 3 of the schedule, the eligible decision maker is a guardian only but it appears that this should also include a parent. Does the committee also wish to draw the instrument to the attention of the Parliament on the general reporting ground in respect of the following points? In the preamble, the reference to the paragraph 6a of schedule 2 of the 2013 act should be to paragraph 6c and incorrect references in regulations 12, 8b, 24, 1b, I, 62, 2, 65, 9 and paragraph 11 of the schedule. Does the committee wish to note that the Scottish Government proposes to correct the error in the preamble by correction slip and to address the other matters by way of an amending instrument? In relation to SSI 2023, 246 on NHS pensions, does the committee wish to draw the instrument to the attention of the Parliament on the general reporting ground in respect of incorrect references in regulation 5, 4, 7, 2a and 18b? Does the committee also wish to note that the Scottish Government proposes to address these matters in the next amending instrument? Also, under the agenda item, no points have been raised on SSIs 2023, 248, 255 and 257. Is the committee content with those instruments? Under agenda item number 4, we are considering an instrument not subject to any parliamentary procedure. No points have been raised on SSIs 2023, 250. Is the committee content with this instrument?


Howdy everyone. Welcome to our Tuesday, March 16, 2021 meeting of the Cross Project Council, expecting a lighter group today. No big deal. But thanks for joining us and if into those who are maybe watching on the on the live stream. We start with announcements. Does anybody else have announcements before I go into my litany of announcements. Okay, cool. I will do that. Today we have the marketing committee. If anybody's interested in attending that that's our monthly meeting. And that's going to be at 3pm Eastern. If anybody would like to to join, I see a hand raised tyranny. Also, if you're on the marketing committee email list, check your spam because I realized it's been going to my spam for a very long time, apparently. Yikes. Definitely, definitely. The marketing committee meetings are also on our calendar. So if you're subscribed to the calendar, you should perhaps get them and that way, but good call. Check, always check your spam periodically. Cool, related to marketing. Of course, we have lots of ask me anything opportunities. I think we're going to rename what we have to what that is but you know, once a month we've been getting these great conversations to folks and projects.  If you're interested in doing an AMA style thing with us in the coming months. Reach out to Rachel. She would definitely love to have you on. We're also looking for awesome folks from our communities to feature in our dev profiles which have been extremely well received people are liking those. So if you have somebody that you want to recognize in your community, it's an awesome way to do to do that. Reach out to Rachel if you have a suggestion. And then of course, we're always hoping to do more to promote and announce and lift up things that are happening in our projects so if you have news releases, you know, just something you want to celebrate. So, we have a hash PR dash marketing channel and Twitter, we can coordinate on retweeting or tweeting something special and making blog posts that kind of stuff so just a generic, that's always open to you. One more thing, Jory. Yeah.  And they are launching a very short constituency survey today, so be on the lookout for that. There will be a blog post going live here shortly. I'm sure there will be some supplemental tweets. So if you are interested in being involved in that, that would be a good opportunity to participate. And if I've missed anything on that, I know there are some folks on the call that can fill in. Great, very cool. And then do we have, I think also related to that, there's a channel in Slack too about Next 10. Is that right, Michael? You are muted, friend. The issue I had about Slack was actually related to something else, it's related to the Build Working Group. We can cover it then. Oh, okay, I thought I'd seen, I was doing a Slack channel review. I thought I'd already seen a, but I must have been mistaken. There is likely already one that somebody created, but that's not necessarily on the agenda today. All right. So, okay, moving on, other announcements. The Programming Committee, the OpenJS World Programming Committee, which is usually on Thursdays, we're making a slight adjustment to our meeting this week to accommodate the Node TSC meeting. There's several of us who are gonna be attending that to talk about some of our standards working group stuff and announcements. So, if you're on the Programming Committee or looking to get involved in the Programming Committee, just be on the lookout for that updated time. It'll probably be an hour earlier. Speaking of which, OpenJS World now, right now, is a great time to register for the conference. As you've already heard, we have adjusted the date due to a conflict with another community event. It's June 2nd, and we would love to have, you know, everybody here there, obviously. So, you can do that. Registration is open today. We're hoping to get the announcements or at least the first sort of round of breakout speakers announced by the end of the month. And yeah, we just wanna make sure that y'all don't miss it. So, head on over to the website and register. And then, last but not least, next Tuesday, I'm telling you this today because we won't meet between now and then is the Standards Working Group meeting and that's Tuesday the 23rd at 2 p.m. Eastern. And so I hope to see you there. Did I miss anything? Is there another announcement? Did I inspire you with these announcements with your own announcements? No, okay. Thought I'd ask. Board meeting updates. Michael, do you have any? I'm thinking, I don't think I have any board meeting updates. Oops, yep. Nothing comes to mind this week. You're thinking that you don't think that there are any. Yeah, I'm thinking that I'm thinking, but I don't remember anything that's new to bring up this week. Cool, he's thinking no. Great. Moving us down, we've got a couple of quick things from the standards repository that I forgot to tag. One is just an issue on number 128. There is nominations for our W3C AC rep. The committee is going to, or I should say Brian Cardell is stepping down and so those are open. And then I also want to say thanks, shout out thanks to Miles for casting our affiliate ballot for OSI elections, which closed today. And if you want to stay more abreast of these issues, head on over to the hash standards channel in Slack. And you'll get notified when these things are open. There we go. Moving on down to the summit repository, which we've got a question on issue 306, which Michael has raised. It's one I've been hearing too. Oh, let me promote to me here. Are we going to do a collaborator summit this year? Good question. Michael, do you want to sort of contextualize this? Yeah, I mean, basically it was like, are we going to do one? And then we actually got a little bit into a discussion of like, and does it even make sense to, you know, in the past we'd co-located with things like OpenJS World, but we got into the discussion of like, does it actually help or hurt to co-locate? So sort of those two questions. One, are we going to do one? And two, would we be aiming to do it at the same time of OpenJS World or some other time or kind of the two key questions I think we should talk about? I have a really dumb question I should have asked before. Is OpenJS planned to be potentially in a real live event this year? Was it planned to be off online from the get-go? Online. Yeah, online from the get-go. And we did get some additional guidance just actually yesterday from the LF on when they're thinking that organizationally it will be okay to really plan in person and they're not really being super firm about that, but earliest possible is late fall. So one of the things that we're considering is whether we could possibly do a collab summit type event partnered with one of the other events like Open Source Summit North America. For example, if that happens in person. What would our community prefer to see? Something that's more, would we wanna do something that's online or would we wanna push it and wait? I mean, what would y'all prefer? I think it's the question, right? So the reason they asked about this is but I think many people have different experiences about this. From my perspective, the way it happened last year online, the collab summit wasn't very useful. And so I wouldn't do like, I wouldn't redo an offline version. Sorry, an online version. Jesus, an online version this year again, because I don't, like I didn't get anything out of it. I barely joined. It was really not something that I found really useful to me. I think the feedback I also heard is like not necessarily whether it's useful or not, but that doing it along with the conference doesn't help. Like you're not leveraging travel or anything like that. And it just makes it harder because if you've already been at the conference, taking two days to be at the conference, taking another three days or two days right afterwards is harder than if, like if we, so if we weren't gonna do it, actually doing it sometime in like a month later or something would help from that perspective. And then it's, the other feedback I got was some people thought, well, was it really that much different than what we get from our working groups? Because, you know, we do those fairly regularly. I think it's different in that there is a little bit more focus, but certainly that was some of the feedback that it's, we, you know, it's not as different as when we actually get together in person. I guess my other feeling though would be, it'd be a shame to let it go a whole year and not do anything, but. I generally agree with Toby on this, specifically like figuring out how to get value out of something and not like, I'll be honest, I don't think a traditional like meeting setting is gonna work for us getting value out of it, just cause like there's gonna be people who, I mean, like I, very similar to Toby, I just basically didn't end up attending a lot of things. The UI was horrible. It just, it was really a struggle for us to get there and like do anything meaningful. So like in that, I would say if we're planning on, if we want to do something, figuring out what we want to do and then going and figuring out the solution for that rather than finding the solution for it and then like building a structure around that solution is gonna be the better way to go. I thought one would be very interested in participating in a live in-person collab summit sometime next winter. Same. I cannot wait to see all y'all in person. Let's all commiserate. Yes. So I think what I'm hearing in terms of consensus is we're not interested in pushing to do an online thing that's in conjunction with the OpenJS world. And perhaps what we want to do instead is look into the feasibility of something a few months after, maybe in person or online, but more kind of catered to the Tierney's point designed around like the thing that we want to do as opposed to is that accurate recapturing? I also think that that is a good point that like we could potentially end up doing something in person. I don't have super high hopes for that, but as things progress and as vaccines roll out, I mean, I would say that a vaccine requirement for that would probably be ideal, but that's also like a gated thing of access and stuff. So, it's a thing. Yeah, I'm not sure how to, what the likelihood of that is, but it's also a good point to, if it does end up being likely or possible, we can kind of have that chance if we don't do it with the event. Should we take some, or at least maybe final issue to take some volunteers to interrogate, collab summit in the fall, whatever. I'm just waving my hands because it's nebulous. Yeah. Okay, cool. All right, that sounds good. So, action. Cool, this is good, good job. Open JS Foundation Cross Project Council items. Private Slack channel for the Node JS build team machine management. Yeah, I opened that one. Basically, we're just having a discussion. We recently moved over some machines from one of our infrastructure donators to a new environment. And as part of that, it came out that it would be useful to actually have a way to continue to collaborate with some of the reps at the donators, the Donator Company. We actually used the public channel during the transition, but we're starting to talk about how do we actually get access to the consoles and things that we can't share publicly. And the suggestion was like, hey, can we just create a private channel? And I opened this because I don't know if we've created any private channels and thought we would need and want CPC input on whether this is the kind of thing we should do. And then also kind of like, we would want to understand who this lack of MINS are because we'd have to assume that they have access as well in terms of whatever we discussed there. Yeah, so we definitely have private channels for infra items for other projects. So this would be kind of in line with that, because just as you say, sometimes there's things that I need to share that you don't want to share with the whole entire world. We can pull the list really quick to answer your other question about admins. I think I dropped that in the issue. Oh, you did? Yeah, thanks. Great. So it's primarily staff with... Let me go and get this up. But I don't see any issue creating this for you all. Okay, yeah. The other thing I'd say is like, at least as a CPC member, I think this is probably a good thing. If this had existed when node moderation started, we probably wouldn't have a paid node moderation Slack. That is also sponsored for free by Slack just because that'd be good. It reduces the need for us to do that kind of thing. So I think encouraging projects to, if they need a private space to dock is fine. I would assume, I think one thing that I would recommend is that we have foundation staff members in there. If that's okay, I think that like, I would assume nobody is gonna be upset about having foundation staff as like people in there just to make sure that like, if someone says something bad or something that there's like visibility into that, right? But that's the only thing I think. Yeah, like we don't have the, we have the secrets repo in the build working group where it really is just limited to the members. And this I kind of see is similar. So I'm not sure I would add additional people who didn't have like the sort of need to know, but on the other hand, I think I'm comfortable with the admins being the staff people, right?  Yeah, and I mean, I guess I can't speak for it, but I would assume that that would be like, they're literally employed to do this and that would be a not great thing to do. Right, yeah, yeah. Is Dave staff as well? He is not, but actually seeing that list, I was like, oh, those are folks who were, so just a bit of a history about this particular workspace, it was the JS Foundation's workspace. Right. So many moons ago it was Chris and Dave as the execs of the JS Foundation. So I think that's just more of a legacy and I'm sure that neither of them would feel, you know, any need to continue now that Brian and Rachel and Robin and myself as staff has that. So I can clear that up and make sure. That's good. Okay. Okay, so yeah, so I should just comment in, we discussed in the meeting this week and it sounds consistent and something, we would just ask one of the admins to create it for us, right? Okay. And that's closely related to just a quick convo I was having with Tierney before. I'll create an issue for this, but I was just doing some late cleanup of some of our channels that, you know, because we have like 60 some odd channels about a dozen or so of which we're just not ever used. So those have just been archived and I'm looking to talk with folks who want to explore ideas for just kind of energizing discussion and making the Slack space more welcome. So I'll file an issue about that though and we can talk about it another time. Move it on. Number 725 is the travel fund allocation for 2021. And Michael, you were addressing this as we were starting to kick off the call. Yep, just an update on that one is that, you know, I was, I should have updated it earlier. So sorry about that. So I was just updating to reflect what was in the budget. It was set on the assumption that travel wouldn't resume until the latter part of this year. Toby makes a good point though that, you know, maybe those funds should go into something else. And I've raised the conversation with the board and, you know, we're talking about that through email. No closure yet, but, you know, I should be coming back with what the discussion is and in terms of like the suggestion based on the input we've gotten. That's awesome, thanks. Next one is 7-Eleven renamed master branches. Toby, this one's. Yeah, Joe suggested that to bring, let me just open up the issue. Joe suggested earlier that to bring closure to this, we had done the work at the level of the org, the CPC's org, and that to close it, that we would want to actually message the different projects and suggest that they do as much and give them a channel on Slack to discuss this. And so I assumed that you probably would be, Joe, you're the one reaching out. And so I offered an email template to get you started. And if people agree to go down that road, I think it's a great way to, yeah, sort of like finalize this issue. That would be great. I'm happy to take that template and send it out. And do you mind if I like, you know, once we do that, projects perhaps like reach out to you if they have like questions or want more resources or things of that sort? I think this Joe suggestion, which I liked was to have a pound infra, to have to get them to talk about this in pound and have some of us actually checking that there. I'm probably not the best resource for that because like the challenging bits are when you have third party vendors that have been working on the assumption that master was the main branch. And so folks that have actually been handling large projects here have more input to provide than I, I haven't done any of that work for like difficult settings. Would it make any sense to, like, sorry, go ahead. No, please. I was just gonna say, like, would it make any sense to use a different channel from infra, just like dedicated? So if you're just interested in this one issue, you can subscribe to it versus all input issues. I don't know if creating another one, I just wondering if like focusing on this and giving a place where that's discussed would make any sense. I don't have an opinion on that. I have like a counter opinion, which is I'd love for them to just have the conversation and infra to like bring more awareness, you know? And then also, you know, because there may be people who are just kind of casually, they're not, maybe they have other projects or something. I just think it, I don't, I think it would be fine to give an input. How much traffic is on infra? I just, like, it's not strictly an infra thing. I think there's other aspects.  Yeah, there's only like 45 people in infra, you know, in the last 30 days, let's see, there've been nine posts. So it's pretty low traffic. I think it'll be fine. My, it'll probably be fine. That's my motto. It'll probably be fine. All right, moving to our next topic. Issue number 699, improving diversity and inclusion at the OpenJSF. And then we go to that one. This one was opened by Toby. And so I actually wasn't in the last meeting. I don't know who was and who can bring feedback. Joe was suggesting a regular meeting outside of the work sessions, which I think is a good idea, but he's not there today. So I guess we should follow up over email. Yeah, I think so. So the last working session was more to work on an adjacent topic, which was the code of conduct stuff. So I'm not sure that really too much has been pushed forward on this topic since you were out last week, Toby. So I think we should just follow up. Yeah, we should just continue following up and maybe create like a regular meeting that's outside of working sessions, of work sessions, whatever those are called. I think Joe's suggestion here makes sense. Any other thoughts or comments before we move on? I think it's really interesting that the W3C is exactly in the same sort of state that we're in and probably other organizations do. So this is, those value in connecting with these different folks to sort of like tackle these issues and get some input from others as well. I think it's a great time to be doing this. Agreed. All right. Last issue is issue 632. Brian, this one is provide implementation guidance for the DCO slash CLA. And I know you were exchanging messages with them yesterday. Yeah, so I had opened up the PR a little while ago and there was a, we're having trouble testing something, making sure that it actually worked. I think just really over the past 12 hours made a bit of progress here. So a big picture again is just that we need for ProBot DCO to pick up support for Mediation Commits, which is the thing that I've been working on here for a while, once that actually goes through and gets merged, then the guidance that I've written makes sense to be published because it refers to that. So that's kind of where we are. Getting close though. And the challenge here is that everybody's kind of doing this particular work on a volunteer basis, particularly ProBot DCO as maintainer. So, you know, attempting to respect their time as well because they have limited amount of time to be able to solve the problems that I apparently created. So attempting to be cautious and respectful here of all of that as well. We're getting close. That's awesome. All right. That takes us to the end of our list of agenda items at 36 minutes past the hour. Good job. Is there any other business that somebody might want to raise questions, ideas, you know, anything like that? Long silence. Nope, okay, cool. So next week's working session is going to be around two on some of the COC opportunities we found last week. That should, and Joe and I have a draft agenda to share with you, hopefully today. Ahead of that next Tuesday. So that's the plan for next week's working session. I've already chaired the upcoming meetings. I don't think there's any other Q and A unless you all have Q and A. Nope, okay, cool. Then I think we've done it. This is the gavel meeting adjourned.


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