This is our project briefing for the CNI fall 2020 virtual membership meeting Entitled model for centralizing data and bioinformations services at the health sciences and human services library at the University of Maryland Baltimore Hi, I'm John Paul corn. Yay. I'm the bioinformations in the Center for data and bioinformations services at the health sciences and human services library at the University of Maryland Baltimore and My name is Amy Arno, and I am the data services librarian for the health sciences and human services library at the University of Maryland Baltimore Earlier this year. I was talking to mj2e our library director And she mentioned struggling to convey the essence of the great work We were doing in the library in support of data and bioinformation need on campus Our situation was that we lacked centralized resources for data and bioinformation services So why is this a problem? Figured that without a clear and concise way of talking about and capturing the entirety of the work We as individuals and the library does towards data and bioinformation services Resources communication and learning we run the risk of appearing to ourselves and others as a patchwork related to data and bioinformation Not unified not coordinated We ran the risk of creating silos that prevent clear and open communication and cause a duplication of efforts on campus We run to issues for the library director and anyone else talking about the library's data and bioinformatics efforts Folks getting tongue-tied promoting and explaining to external stakeholders are interested parties about our work And also we run the risk of missing out on funding opportunities reserved for centralized units aiming to provide bioinformatics and data support in the library To better understand our situation we define for whom the problem exists and who has a stake in solving the problem We determine the problem exists for our campus community The people we serve and the main reason we come to work who may have trouble knowing what resources exist and how to access them easily Also librarians and professional staff The folks in the trenches interfacing directly with the user Those who provide data and bioinformation services and those who collaborate with those people that are providing data and bioinformation services Also our library administrators who must communicate what the library is doing And other units who provide data services and do not know about potential collaborators We also determine who our stakeholders are meaning who cares whether this problem is resolved or not Those who will ensure we uphold our mission to bring value to our campus community and the scholarly community at large The data services librarian and myself the bioinformationist since we are interfacing with faculty staff and students and our effort solely goes towards operations of the center The associate director for services at the library who supervises the data services librarian and myself and as an integral contributor to the process of refining and sharpening our point and is in the field with a step by step seeing Implementation of our vision Additionally the library director who tirelessly advocates for sustaining and growing the library She's had the vision for the library playing a prominent role in the data and bioinformatics ecosystem Because on multiple campus level initiatives. She's serving and stands to gain a lot from our success now and the future of the library Our library IT staff cats Our library IT staff cats An associate director for cats provide our cyber infrastructure and are directly involved in our work routinely with graphic design and web development And finally the library head of resource development and sharing who leads the data catalog initiative And has been involved in development of our data services providing a measurable insight into delivering data services We also aggregated and defined our experience around the situation and did some research about it also We've been providing data services for several years And our existing relationships with groups and departments across campus providing complimentary services showed us that they are all centers or cores Meaning this is an effective model We already have an existing list of services we provide We already provide training instruction for bioinformatics and data services And there can be a lack of communication between different departments that do similar work So fixing that up would be helpful And there's a difficulty talking about our services There's an uncertainty of who to go to whenever assistance is required as well as users being unsure of who to go to for help Our research we've done was literature searches And we found great examples of successful centers and cores within libraries providing centralized data and bioinformation services Seeing collaboration being forged at the campus level to provide these services We performed an environmental scan of our campus to find out what was going on and classify it As well as perform a needs assessment to directly Inquire from our campus community what their needs for data and bioinformation services work Naturally, we think the solution for this situation is our center for data and bioinformation services In the following slides, we're going to discuss the model for making it happen and what that means for our users and stakeholders Our priorities our mission and number one priority Is a dedication to meeting the evolving information needs of our diverse communities through provision of expertise Resources and services in an environment supportive of the University of Maryland's mission Vision and core values In addition to aligning with the mission our priorities are also data driven With guidance from our stakeholders and users in accord with the themes and goals of the strategic plan for the library We do this in consideration of our available budget available staff time our skillset And other means of leveraging skills to achieve cdabs goals We like to think ourselves to be self-aware in respect to the work we do And as such the value we generate and how we implement things in the center will be based on evolving assumptions and external factors throughout our processes Our assumptions are the evolving beliefs we have about the center The people involved and the way we think that the center is going to work External factors on the other hand are aspects of the environment in which the center exists that can influence the center's success Our current assumptions are that there is a need for centralized resources That people have a hard time finding out about services and we have a hard time describing what we do That there is a need to train people on open science skills Also that the library is the natural entity to be the data hub on campus since it's a centralized institution that serves all of our schools Also that members of other departments will have the time to contribute to the center We assume also that the work we are proposing to do is not being replicated elsewhere on campus And finally that we have appropriate hardware software and technical skills to meet the evolving demands of our users Our external factors are Our external factors are Whether the campus community will embrace us as valid contributors to the data enterprise That the ever-changing tech environment and its effect on relevance of our programming And how current policy and economic concerns affect the availability of resources for the program After thinking through our situation priorities and assumptions Jean-Paul and I took stock of the resources we had available in terms of time people funding technology infrastructure partnerships and experience From this we determined that we do have the ingredients necessary to form a center And so the center for data and bio information services is largely about how we package and promote these ingredients The center will have two full-time staff members and Jean-Paul and myself And several other library staff and faculty members will contribute as part of their regular duties Either with some aspect of cdab's programming or in a more advisory capacity Because most of the work for the center is being done as part of our regular job duties We will not at this time require much funding beyond our normal salaries Two exceptions to this will be the acceptance of vouchers for a new visualization service Which will help provide some additional professional development funds And we may also want to look into grant funding for upgrades to our technology We do have numerous technological resources that we can leverage for this service Including those specific to the library like the high performance computer The library website and for when we're back in our physical space our classrooms We have access to campus-wide services like red cap as well We have a number of partnerships we can build on including centers and personnel within umb and those beyond We can learn from their experiences and they can provide us with opportunities for collaboration Finally, we can build on the experiences We have already developed from building data and bio information services And we can continue to research this sort of programming elsewhere The outputs from these resources form our core pillars learning services resources and communication We provide instruction through multiple modalities and offer personal in-depth assistance for a range of data needs We have beneficial resources like a high performance computer and the data catalog Which lists data sets created or used by umb researchers In the future we hope to offer additional services like a visualization lab and wall It is also important that we communicate about the center activities through on-campus promotion efforts and professional activities We see opportunities here for further engagement by organizing interest groups and open office hours around things like research data management And the r programming language Assessment is a thread that runs through all of these pillars And is an ongoing and integral part of our data driven priorities We will leverage our existing assessment strategies like workshop evaluations And add new methods for assessment that will help us determine our impact on our community and make sure that we are meeting their needs As we mentioned the center is not going to be a physical space But it will have a virtual presence in the form of a web portal on the main library webpage That will be key to clarifying what the center is and how all the pieces fit together We have started to work with a library web developer on how we can bring together our existing resources Like the lib guides on various data and bio information topics the data catalog and our workshops and tutorials Let's look at some scenarios that will illustrate how the center for data and bio information services And its web portal will result in a better experience for our users In the first scenario imagine a researcher who knows they are supposed to share their data Maybe they've heard about our data catalog But are not sure if they can store data there And they are struggling with who to contact because the research data management information is in a different place than data catalog information In another scenario there might be a participant in one of our workshops who wants to find the slides or other material Currently there is no place on the library website for this material to live And so participants would need to email the instructor and ask them to send the slides Finally consider a researcher who works with large data sets and needs to understand options for using computing resources on campus Currently they may not realize that the library can help them in this regard With the center in place the users described on the last slide Could come to the center's web portal and easily find options for services along the data life cycle They would have access to staff bios and understand who is responsible for various services So for the faculty member looking to share data They will now easily be able to find information comparing different repositories in a guide Or they could request a consultation to help them choose a repository Understand how to prepare their data for sharing and also start the process of getting a record created for their shared data in the data catalog The workshop participant will find a space where current and past workshop materials are located And this will be easily accessed from the future workshop calendar Finally the researcher interested in working with a large data set Will be able to easily find information about the library's high performance computer Including how to access it and what its uses and limitations are If they need computing resources beyond what we offer at the library They will be able to find information about other campus resources So our portal will not only serve as a space for describing and accessing our own services and resources But it will also act as a hub connecting to our partners across campus who also offer data and bio information related services Now that we have had a chance to consider some scenarios of how we will be delivering value to our users Let's step back and see how soon we can realize the value being generated and potential caveats In the short term we envision that our campus community can quickly access and navigate our library's data and bio information services Workshop and webinar attendees coming away from instruction will have achieved learning goals and be able to reproduce what they've learned There's an opportunity of piecewise attainment of open science skills through participation and use of services and resources we offer There's also a possibility of not keeping up with demand and quality of service declining We're sure people will have a place to go to learn about data and bio information topics because our information pages Tutorials workshops and open office hours and user groups will be available to the whole umb community We anticipate increased engagement as well sharing and describing umb researchers data sets In the midterm we anticipate data service providers from the umb campus community having improved communication with each other However, there could be some challenges connecting and fostering community solidarity nonetheless related to territory disputes technology hurdles or some potential redundancy of services And overall we'll anticipate enhanced computing for campus users geared to work with big data and data enclaves In the long term we think that the center will help establish the health sciences and human services library as a model for how a health science institution can provide data and bio information services and teach and promote open science skills We hope that through our efforts the data catalog will have a larger presence on campus And that it will become part of nearly all researchers routines to list their data in the catalog Over time the center for data and bio information services will become a mature entity that is self sustaining And able to adapt easily to the needs of our community as technology and data practices change Over the next six months our plan will be to develop our web portal in addition to that We plan to bring together promotional materials To advertise and engage with our campus community users We will assemble our curriculum for attaining open science skills through our workshops We'll have ongoing advisory meetings to review the progress of our center's development and launch And of course an ongoing assessment and research as to how we're doing with our launch This concludes our project update for the c&i fall 2020 virtual membership meeting We hope you have found it informative Please feel free to contact Amy Yarnel or John Paul Cornea at the center for data and bio information services at the health sciences and human services library of the university of maryland baltour at the email address data at hshsl.u maryland.edu Best wishes


How DeMarcus Cousins and John Wall can join forces in the NBA? Now as we all know DeMarcus Cousins has been in trade rumors for what seems like almost three years now Which is pretty crazy, but the Sacramento Kings haven't made much progress even with boogie Absolutely killing it on the floor I think it's fair to say that he's become the best center in the league and the thing is like I said his play Isn't translating into wins and that's why he's always in trade rooms and frankly You can almost say the same thing about John Wall not the fact that he's become the best point guard in the league since he hasn't But the fact that he's a terrific player and a guy that a franchise can build their team around but Unfortunately the Wizards just haven't done a great job of that. Yes compared to the Kings They've obviously done better, but when you actually look at the Washington Wizards They really haven't had much success with John Wall and when you're looking at the records They seem to be going in a downward trend They look like they were heading in the right direction after the 2013-14 season and the 2014-15 season But last year they didn't even qualify for the playoffs and this season they once again seemed to be missing pieces to become a playoff team So both players would be perfect pieces for each other and they've actually both talked about joining forces Which is crazy. So here's how DeMarcus Cousins and John Wall can join forces Now the reason why I'm making this video is because in recent reports that actually came out on Monday DeMarcus Cousins and John Wall actually talked about playing together, which is why I'm making this video Former Kentucky teammates DeMarcus Cousins and John Wall told reporters on Monday that they've actually discussed playing together in the NBA as well Although both players want the other to go to their current teams We talk about it all the time wall set of playing in the NBA with DeMarcus Cousins Now the storyline came up on Monday when the Kings faced off against the Washington Wizards DeMarcus Cousins vs John Wall It was a pretty good game But before the game actually had even started cousins went asked whether the two players have discussed an NBA reunion He said it's come up now that quote right there of it's come up He's just insane to think about but not only does Boogie want wall He also wants his other teammate Eric Birdso, which I mean obviously he's gonna say that because I mean There's almost a little bit disrespectful to not say I want to play with Eric Bledsoe as well Cousins mentioned former Kentucky teammate Eric Bledsoe in the discussion as well But said if it happens he wants Bledsoe currently with the Suns and John Wall currently with Washington With him in Sacramento, so he obviously wants them to come down to Sacramento and let's be honest here They are not going to Sacramento. Okay now.  Let's be honest here Your management has got to be the worst management in the NBA right now. It's seriously that bad You've had what really good first-round picks and managed to mess it up pretty much all this time So I'm just saying you I don't you got to do something with your management, but that's besides the point Let me read you another quote. They're all going to come to Sacramento John Wall wants me DC cousin said Eric wants us in Phoenix But playing with John Wall and Eric again, you never know what will happen. It's the NBA So hopefully one day he'll be in a Sacramento Kings uniform Now the piece to take out of that quote is you never know what will happen and It's never been a better time to get this big three together because when you think about it Boogie is right. You never know what will happen, especially in today's NBA Did you think that Kevin Durant was gonna leave the Thunder with Russell Westbrook to join the Golden State Warriors and create a Superteam and did you think that Dwayne Wade was actually going to leave Miami? Well, I definitely didn't I'm just saying that you really don't know What will happen especially in a few years Which we will definitely talk about in this video because I wouldn't have made the video without telling you guys how and when they Have the opportunity to join forces John Ball like cousins would like his former teammate to join him in Washington if a reunion is workable in the future He said and I quote just trying to figure out what's gonna happen. You know what I mean cousins loves where he's at And I love where I'm at. So whatever we feel like gives us the best opportunity to win I know what our team is and here and what I want to do here and it's something I keep in mind Now what I find crazy and why I truly believe they have a chance to become teammates in the future is number one They are open to talk about the move They've all stated that they would love to become teammates and in today's NBA All you need is a little bit of a rumor a little bit of a hint and just a little bit of talk And I mean to be honest, it would be a great thing to see We've all seen this before obviously in completely different scenarios, but in kind of the same context LeBron James Dwayne Wade and Carmelo Anthony were all great friends and wanted to team up together They didn't know where they wanted to team up, but they all wanted to become teammates and create a super team Luckily for Miami they had enough cut space to fit all three players Although they did take a pay cut to fit Chris Bosch instead of Carmelo Anthony since Mello was on an extra year on his contract and you know, he couldn't join LeBron and Wade in Miami But they got Bosch instead now that's obviously just one example and there's obviously plenty more examples But it's just one of those things that you'd seen today's NBA Compared to in past decades where in today's NBA it's something you see more of which I don't know if I like it or dislike it I don't really mind. I just want to see players just competing to a high level. So that's my thoughts But it would be pretty cool to see John Wall, Eric Blaseau and DeMarcus Cousins on the same team Number two both DeMarcus Cousins and John Wall Haven't had the success they wanted to in the NBA especially DeMarcus Cousins I mean when you talk about DeMarcus Cousins Considering how poorly the king's management is and considering he's played what seven eight years in the league and never ever Made the playoffs one day that'll get into his head and he'll be gone Which is just another reason why this duo of John Wall and DeMarcus Cousins or if Eric Blaseau comes down This trio could happen because DeMarcus Cousins he seriously hasn't had success in the NBA He's never made the playoffs now How crazy is that you are literally in my opinion in my opinion and according to many others as well You can comment down below if you disagree or if you agree DeMarcus Cousins is the best center in the NBA. All right in a few years. Okay, that may change Towns is up there and there's players like Drummond DeAndre Whiteside, you know, they good, but I just think DeMarcus is like a tiny bit better than them And if he's the best in the league, right? He hasn't ever made the playoffs and to be honest I don't think it's his fault. I mean, yeah, he does complain. He does sook. He does all those type of things But in the end, why wouldn't you do that your team is trash and your management isn't helping you become a better team That's what's gonna happen. So DeMarcus Cousins seven or eight years in the league hasn't ever made the playoffs He's he's gonna become frustrated and we've already heard all the trade rumors to the Boston Celtics to the Lakers To everywhere seriously is crazy. So that's another reason why I just think DeMarcus Cousins one day will just become upset and he'll team up with John Wall number three if there is one thing about DeMarcus Cousins and one reason why a team wouldn't want the best end of the league is Because of his attitude. We know Boogie can get a little bit angry a little bit frustrated and a little sookie at times But if anyone would be able to calm him down or get him motivated to not get as many tech vows to not get ejected and To actually stay on the floor when the team needs him I think the best person would be John Wall or Eric Bledsoe obviously, but I think John Wall just fits with DeMarcus Cousins I don't know. I'd rather have John Wall boogie than Eric Bledsoe and DeMarcus Cousins It's actually just because Eric Bledsoe seems like he's a good fit in Phoenix Whereas John Wall, I mean he seems like a decent fit with Bradley Bill But to be honest, I would just love to see wall and DeMarcus Cousins on the same team But John Wall, he is the leader on the floor as the point guard He's the guy that controls what happens on each possession and he loves to pass the ball Maybe a little bit too much which is why his turnover numbers are so high But I'm just saying that pairing DeMarcus Cousins up with not only a friend But another all-star a leader may do wonders for him and that would be a scary duo in the NBA for sure The thing is if the players are to be teammates in the NBA It will have to wait until the end of next season unless a trade happens Which to be honest DeMarcus Cousins in a lot of trade rumors You never know he might be traded at trade deadline if the Kings aren't doing well and he demands a trade And I mean we've already seen Shaq say that DeMarcus Cousins is in trade talks If you don't believe me, I'll play it on the screen right now Long time away. Really? Can't sneak in there at the eight hole or something like that in the Western I think they can but it's up to their leader DeMarcus Cousins You know past, you know, previous years made a lot of mistakes. He's been hot-headed He hasn't shown me those leadership qualities yet, and that's why I'm you know here and talk of if things don't you know start to Start to become correct and they may be looking to go in a different direction What if the crazy thing is you could be a hot-headed still be a leader Cousins is under contract with the Kings through the 2017-18 season both wall and bled so are under contract with their teams through the 2018-19 season so it could happen But it might have to wait a few years or a trade can happen Which don't be surprised if a trade does happen Especially with DeMarcus Cousins leaving the Sacramento Kings. Maybe a trade with the Wizards would be dope I think that'd be amazing. Maybe a trade with the Suns Eric Bledsoe DeMarcus Cousins. I mean that would be cool But I don't know if a trade is more likely to happen than a free agent signing in 2018 2019 So I don't know. Let me know down below Lastly, I just want to say that whatever team these players end up playing for if it all comes together If it's a rumor that slowly becomes into reality if it happens Whatever team these players play for and if they ever play together I think it would be absolutely amazing to watch and I'd love to see that let me know down below in the comment section What do you think would you love to see this duo or trio join forces or would you rather see them facing off against each other? Let me know down below and I hope you guys enjoy the video I just wanted to quickly thank all of you guys that have recently subscribed welcome and I really appreciate you all Subscribing and yeah, we reached 150,000 subscribers, which is absolutely amazing and I couldn't have done it without you guys So thank you. Thank you so much The second thing is that I'm on school break now for about six to eight weeks I believe so I have a lot more time on my hands to make videos for you guys Which is awesome and yet if you enjoy the video Please hit that like button to show your support and if you're new to the channel and you want to watch more videos Just like this one, please hit that subscribe button It would mean the world to me. Let's aim for 4,000 likes for the next video. I'll catch you guys there


After compiling that information together and creating the the records that we're going to publish into DNS the next step is logging into our DNS provider and Publishing those DKIM records in DNS So to publish the DKIM records in DNS for this domain, we're going to go log in to GoDaddy because that's where DNS is hosted for this domain and I'm going to Create a new C name record. So what I'm going to do is copy my record on my domain We're going to create a new domain. So we're going to add The type is going to be C name the host is going to be Just in the case of GoDaddy, it's going to be selector one Dot underscore domain key and that's going to point to the other portion that we created Okay, so as the C name record what this is going to do that is anything that goes to selector one dot underscore domain key Dot modern digital office comm is going to get redirected to this web page That is hosted by Microsoft. That's why we're creating a C name record We're going to add one more and it's going to be that selector two So again, it's going to be a C name. Take the selector two record And again since we're on don't go daddy again, since we're on go daddy, we don't have to Provide the entire domain as the host. We just need the the subdomain that's getting added to this domain And that's going to point to And that's it Once those DNS records have propagated across the internet then we can perform our test


Hi. Hello. Hello, Matt. How are you? Good. Yeah. I'm good. Cool. I'm good. I've been back to back to back meetings. All right, this is started recording. So, I guess we'll get started. Today is this is the artifact hub meeting for Tuesday, October 27, 2020. I added two things to the agenda. Did either of you have anything to add to the agenda? No. Okay. The first one that I had was the blog. The idea that I had. So I've noticed in the artifact hub room in Slack, you've posted a lot of useful and wonderful information. And I thought, you know what, this would probably serve better on a blog that could be tweeted out and shared out and other avenues, which would pull more people into the artifact hub into seeing it and knowing it and using it. What do you think about that? It's a great idea and we should definitely do it. So maybe we could try to define, I mean, so interesting topics that starting from the beginning, like maybe the first one could be just introducing artifact hub a bit more and explaining to users how to add their first repo. And, you know, we can define a few topics and right. So no, I think it's great. So, yeah. So the question would be, what platform of choice would you all like to have for the blog? I have no preference. Many of the CNCF projects use Hugo and static site generation. But I don't care. We're not loggers actually so we don't have any, any preference. So, Okay, okay, whatever you find for us. And I'll be happy to take this action to go start sorting through how we would do this. And I'll try to figure something out. Okay, cool. Awesome. I might ask for some help just to style it like our site or somehow similar I had, but that's about it. I will probably go with the standard setup that the CNCF tends to use to do this. I'll be in line with everything else. All right, sounds great. Okay. It'll, it'll, it'll be a couple of weeks before something is up and running, because I'm scrambling around and help and stuff right now. But this is something I will carve out time for. Okay. Yeah, sounds good. And then the second thing is the helm hub redirect that I had. So right now we get every request comes to the helm project and then just gets forwarded on. There is no nice way to do a DNS redirect to just say hey, use this other thing and redirect here. So we have to have a redirect somewhere. And we could have it on the helm side, or we could have it on the artifact hub side, right, like we could do a C name and then you could catch it and redirect. So there's, there's a few different ways we could do it. And I didn't know whether we had a preference on this project on how we wanted to look at that redirect. If there's an easy way to do it in the CDN here, or the same way that we use at the beginning of the project to redirect when we chose the, the temporary name would be to do it on the AWS ALB. So I would just, I would just set up that on the AWS Ingress, the ALB Ingress we are using at the beginning of the project. So if we do that, I would need you to authorize me to set up a certificate for hub.helm.sh to set it up on AWS certificate manager. So if I do that, then I prepare the redirection on the Ingress side. And once it's ready and everything is working, you can change the a entry for hub.helm.sh and point it to cloud front. Okay. Now, with the hub.helm.sh, we get every single request in for that API that you have being cached for all those funny strings we were talking about being, those all hit hub.helm.sh. How much of an impact would that have over here with the load balancer set up? We are already getting those. So I think you're redirecting everything to us. So that wouldn't change anything. Okay. I still have to take this to the Helm project to figure out what we want to do over there, but I just wanted to see here what we thought. We may just keep the redirect as is, but I'll talk to folks over there. All right. I mean, if we go the way I have proposed, Matt, you still have full control of the redirect because in the end you are the one changing hub.helm.sh to point it to cloud front. So, and you can revoke the certificate thing at any moment. So, yep. We already have seen, I don't know if we have still it in place, the one we set up at the beginning, but it's quite easy and you wouldn't have to maintain the service just for the redirection. We have to have the servers anyway for other things. And so I will talk to folks and in fact it's actually a pretty minimal cost compared to every other thing we have that costs on Helm. It's a drop in the bucket. So, okay. Okay. Those are the only things I had. I hope to take it to the Helm project discussion last week, but we ran out of time in the week before we ran out of time. So we'll see if I can get it in this week. Awesome. I mean, I can do the hour part of the setup quickly from one day to the other. So it won't take much time. Okay. Great. All right. Nice. So there is something that maybe I don't know it's about the official artifact ticket that we still have open. I don't know if maybe we could try to gather some ideas, maybe for the next meeting on what people should do is they want to claim the official status and artifact have at the moment we have a few that have been done manually by me and I'm happy to keep doing that we just to probably define what they should do when they want to claim that status. I mean, if it's only okay I'm the owner of this repo you can go and check it out and please give me this batch temporarily and I promise that in my repo the only thing that is going to be is the software that I own or I don't know we just can we do it, not at the repo level, but at the chart level. So it's only certain charts in a particular repo. I mean, we could do it at the moment is not like it's working it's per repo. But we could try to change that I would need to review the implications because at the moment I went this way for a reason that I can't remember right now. So the reason I think about this is I'm reminded of we've had a couple of times or somebody's had a home repository, and they've had their official ones in there. And then they forked somebody else's and stuck them in there for some reason but it wasn't an official place. And so I knew they didn't keep everything that was their own. In this case, they had a fork version, one case I remember had a fork version of cert manager. The cert manager was updated they got rid of their forked version, but for a while they had to keep a forked version of it to work with everything else they had going on. And I would not be surprised if you had something else like that. On the other hand, if we have fit per package, and so are they supposed to request that for every single package they have from the repo? I mean, at the moment we have the promissues one that has like 15 or 16. And recently, I don't know I can't remember the name, but another one that I approved recently that has five or six. So it's going to maybe become a little bit extra work. We can do it, but then we need to define if they need to request that per package. And if they release another package, they need to again, because they are just another thing to their own software. I say, you need to request again the official status for this extra package. How do you do it? Do you manually have to alter the database or is there a user interface? No, at the moment I do it in the database and given that this per repo is just, I mean, I'm just updating a single field. So it's quite easy. It would be the same for a package is that we need to do it, but it would create more work on their side requesting it individually. Yes. Someone recently mentioned doing it per organization, but that would be even, I mean, one step further because we can always create multiple repositories. It's not the end of the, so you say, okay, this is my official repo and this is another repo I have for some stuff that is not official. That's a good question. I'm going to think about this. I don't know and I would be curious to know if you could remember that reason. But doesn't matter if we think that that's the best way of doing it, we can change it. So it's not a problem at all. So even if it's a little bit extra maintenance work, not. And if it's one of those things that has a user interface on it, it's something that I or if we get other maintainers in here could go spend time doing. So it doesn't have to all fall on you. Okay. Yeah, at the moment there isn't any super user UI. So I think maybe it's early for that because we don't know what kind of maintenance. We will need to do but I'm happy to chair any credentials so that you guys can step up and do it manually in the database as well as if you want to. But it's not a problem for me super quick. So it's an update and I did in a second. It's just nothing. So, yeah. Okay. Okay, yeah, if you can think of that reason I'm going to think about this and I've got a couple of people I want to go talk to, to just bounce the idea off of. Okay. And Dan is somebody I want to talk to about this because he might have ideas. So I might go chase him down now about this one. Okay, cool. If we can also think about something that would allow us to automate this but at the moment I don't I don't have any good idea to say okay we don't need to maintain this. So, Okay, that's a good idea. Okay. Do we have anything else. No, I think that's it. Well then have a wonderful week, and I'll see you online. You too. Thank you. See you soon. Thank you. Thank you very much.


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So while you guys line up on either side here with questions I Asked the panelists to ask questions of themselves, but before I start I noticed a couple of overarching questions that reach beyond Just one of you and one way we have two Students who basically went into business and started up business and I noticed both of you were saying That you were trying to minimize The IP at the university And that led me to think well How did you first of all, you know we want to encourage people like you and your generation to start up new businesses? So is the university at did it help you? Move into the firm or was it something you had to get around like putting all your stuff at the public domain So you didn't have to negotiate Unmute there we go. So Miguel is actually incredibly helpful in supporting our endeavor.  There was never any mention of it I mean, I'm sure it's important and you know most ventures do fail. So there's there's no point in you know put it put it up a Ruckus, you know, if if nothing's gonna come of it. So who knows if down the lines a Unicorn company comes out of a university what's gonna happen really But I think the approach that Miguel has taken that we've seen so far has been really supportive and helpful And so we're really grateful for that So it's a really great point that you make actually in my case, we didn't have the choice because like The lab that I'm coming from everything is public usually in the code as well so So it was not like a specific question to say like are we going to release the code to to evade the DIP Although you need to protect it at some point or another if it's for investors or others They will ask you like do you possess that IP or do you have a way to protect it? And down the line so in our case we decided anyway, like things move very fast So the stuff that we we were doing in academia Is now like we've evolved from that we've recorded everything I think we have better tools now And that will change also in time So so there was no real point to set deals with the university at that point And now we own the IP so Yeah, there was no big discussion, but it's always the a little bit Stressful or you don't know like if that company becomes a very big company Are they going to sue you or something down the line because like they see the dollar signs So that's still a Big question mark for me. It's not clear exactly well from the path that we've took I think it's we've avoided that but You never know So, let me ask a second question. This is more general is all of you have talked about Some of the stuff being shared and open creating data structures and sustainability of that information and at the same time needing to Have a firm that takes off and has some exclusivity some advantage in the marketplace Where do you learn to figure out that line or are you still learning or where does that information come from? So we're definitely still learning but from from the get-go. We were a very academic oriented group The scientists basically And so we are very much proponents of open science and so our dream really was to make it such that The IP that we create is Not really relevant to our ability to disseminate the knowledge and the science and and the data if possible So we just like if you could just turn like super technical details Proprietary but release all of the knowledge that's created out of your algorithms and the models themselves and the code then I don't know if it's gonna work, but that's I'm really hoping it might Yeah So basically how do you because I mean those little details are what makes the difference at the end like in some in some cases like sharing a model is It can be useful, but it's not necessarily the It's not gonna. Yeah, exactly. It's it's important like at the end. You need to protect it. I think at some point So so yeah, that's that's something that we've on our side Learned in the past few months Doing like exactly trying to figure out what will be the business value What's how to protect our IP how to make value from what we've learned and also from the data as well like How do we gather? public and private data Decilo some of that data that can be very useful and that should be leveraged in academia and in the private sector I think you have a very interesting approach for that You know, I think first of all it's a very slippery slope And we were talking earlier about this if you don't have a framework where you can You can secure the data into a compliant format So one or more people can share it work together then you don't have a framework So it's a slippery slope you're moving forward and you're always looking over your shoulder to see what did I do or what? I did not do so. I mean for example, we've recently at MGH in Boston. We've recently We helped them develop a molecular lab and we set up a small company We're taking that company to market and their objective is to use the IP generator to master general hospital Then allow other people perhaps open science to mix other molecular medicine components Into the mix and then harden the Solution using a company called archer to take those assays and take them to market So sometimes it's an acceleration, but you know, we all started in small businesses I had two to three of them and I've get the scars to bear From starting them because when you're running and gunning and you're just trying to make a living and move forward You know, you don't necessarily have the benefit of this great Legal group that's here. So I think to begin with an auditable system where you can contain mix the data Read-only scratch capability and then preserve it You know preservation of data always helps those who are trying to do the right thing to begin with So I think the kind of system we're talking about is foundational to this So another sort of critical tension that really matters here is where your data is coming from and who it's coming from If you have end users who are consumers You know, you have to be very careful or you might end up being 23 and me selling people's genetic data to big pharma if you are collecting data from consumers, you have to be very very forthright with what you're going to do with it and Especially if you want to share it within an open science framework, you have to be careful about that You know, this is particularly true of neuro imaging data where the de-identification Processes is a sort of a critically important part if you're doing open science if you're sharing or aggregating anything We've had requests from people who say, you know, we'd love to see some of the EEG data that you've got Can you share it with us?  It's like, of course, we're not going to share that with you You crazy. Why would we do that? Violate your users privacy so you have to be very forthright with your users and there are frameworks for this sage bio networks is particularly good at this on You know patient-centered or user-centered privacy Making things very easy for the end user to understand understand what they're sharing and then be very careful about what you're doing the sharing what you're doing with the data and You know, I think it there's there's no easy answer to this it's going to be solved on a case-by-case basis for now and The it's really really important that the community engages with that especially, you know People who have a lot of experience in standardizing and sharing data engage with companies that have this increasingly common problem or challenge Yeah, I'd say the other thing that So that goes along with that You know with that standardization and pooling of data is that As there's more and more to work with as it becomes more and more of an issue Privacy-perferring software can become much more important. I think it's it's going to be a growing field That's going to really accelerate the development of all the other fields because it's going to allow access to a lot of data and Those who can show that their systems really do protect that privacy We'll have an edge in terms of access to data In terms of open sourcing I think there's always two things to look at and the way that you open source data and the way that you open source tools and other Software are two very different things. I think it takes two different policies and approaches Towards them, you know, as you said that the trust that you have when you're a data collector is very important Once you lose it you it's very very hard to regain it And what we what we've noticed is that being a trusted data partner on the market today is very very valuable So that's one area where you want to be much more careful than let's say your open source tools in terms of open sourcing tools And you're you're a software. I mean there's always a trade-off between where your expertise lies and where Other innovations are happening in other labs and you want to be a part of it and in order to be a part of it one You have to you know be a Good community member, but the other thing is if you take one version of it And you go off on your side and you sort of fork it and start building on your own You're not going to be able to take advantage of a lot of the innovations that are happening anyway So I think very much case-by-case. I think it's very much a difficult thing But it's about recognizing where your particular value lies and how to protect that while taking advantage of the the other innovations that are going on and I think AI being a Field where it's very resource constrained at the moment knowing how to apply those tools Even if they are open source or having access to particular data, even if the models are open source That can be your competitive edge that can allow you to to contribute the rest back to the community Actually, that's a great point So I was going to sort of come off of that now she talked about a point that grain rays as well Is that one of the things that we tend to downplay in doing this is how much effort we put into actually developing the platform So our own sort of expertise and personal skills that provided that platform And you can obviously reverse engineer a lot of software packages But actually figuring out how to use them for specific applications longer They can't succeed where they don't succeed it's really worth a lot And that's really where you get the competitive advantage and the companies We have talked to as the virtual brain founders have been very excited about that particular opportunity Because the soft the solutions itself are out there ready They can get from a paper no problem there But it's actually knowing where it works where it doesn't work Learning how to use the software in the conjunction with AI platforms for example That's stuff that we've been working on we can take that knowledge and actually help build the platforms together And that's really a huge advantage for businesses So thank you for that one of the Concerns when I talked about it, but we generally know the cost of developing a drug is increasing and people are looking to neuro Informatics and other tools to help address that but though a lot of the costs are in the clinical trials or something else So are what you're producing? I'll be the cynic here. Just added costs to the system or they actually You know do you see an opportunity here for this technology to start driving down the cost of actually doing these trials and bring A new drug to market second, thank you You know I think There are so many components to clinical trials and to research and to clinical Precision medicine by the way, I think behavioral health is the ultimate use of precision medicine There are so many pieces where one has to go out and or the drug companies spend a fortune to go out and to develop a cohort And the rest of it at the end of the day the reason we're doing all of this ourselves is to accelerate Into clinical practice the things that we're all learning so we've worked for example To be able to kind of back-end feed some very very large Healthcare systems with clinical research data and since there is no ICD-9 or E&M code we kind of wrote web interfaces drove it into the back end and Allowed to have reporting within the EMI or another system So it was unified clinical research management system and healthcare system if you do that all of a sudden you're in control of the data And you can reduce cost you can take the control out of these people who are trying to develop the cohorts and adding Extraordinary cost to clinical trials so you can't use data until you can manage data The objective is to manage it and then there'll be some private Apps and you know people who develop these applications Deserve the recognition and monetary enhancement that they get It's not a battle. I think it's a combination of IP open source and open science and That's the mix that we really have to reach and then let's accelerate these things in the clinical practice We all know people practice medicine the way they were trained to practice medicine The only way you could escalate it is evidence-based data that drives them to do the right thing so I'm gonna talk about more Alzheimer's application or Alzheimer's clinical trial but the basically the there is ways to Reduce the cost for the clinical trial or fast-track a little bit some of the the process Basically the main cost in clinical trials is in recruitment screening people to make sure that they They have the right properties for the trial and more often than other especially in Alzheimer They recruit people that don't have the desired quality Like cognitive decline. They should cognitively decline in the time of the trial If they don't or like if they stay stable They will just add noise to the the clinical trial resulting in increased cost So if you're able to target the right population that will kind of decline or reject the ones that will that will remain stable That's a great way to ensure that if the drug is effective It's gonna go through the whole process if it's not then it's not due to the Wrong selection of your subjects or too much noise or a Simple size that is too small for the heterogeneity of your population So yeah, there is ways to to reduce the cost of clinical trial I think quite drastically and if you do that earlier on in the screening process Then you also like save a lot in the the most costly Modalities that you will do at the end of the process So, you know another another way you can think about cost reduction is by increasing the Resolution of your measurements or at the quality of your measurements by do potentially doing more regular measurements with at-home technology wearable technology That costs a lot less than a laboratory visit So if you can collect data remotely for a clinical trial, you can you can potentially At least achieve some of the outcome measures some of the health measures that you're you're looking for Remotely in a much lower cost and much more regularly so you can you can actually look for where these changes are happening What the time course of them is? Longitudinally A good example of this is say sleep measurement if sleep is one of your outcome measures or if you're running a sleep clinic I don't know if anybody here has ever been to a sleep clinic But it's an awful experience and sleeping sleeping in a polysomnography system is terrible Not only are you you know sleeping with wires all over yourself and accelerometers and respirometers? But you basically can't move at night so people don't sleep well so you're actually getting a measure that's not very indicative of any kind of pathology associated with sleep and you know There are a lot of reasons to believe Randy was telling me last week that that sleep is a is an interesting indicator potentially of early cognitive decline Biomarker for Alzheimer's, but it's also you know hope for a host of other reasons It's a really interesting thing if you can make something sparse and wearable that someone can wear at home and sleep multiple nights in then you can get sleep data EEG EMG heart data breathing data a whole bunch of other things all on a Longitudinal basis that you can average over multiple nights or you can look at multiple nights in the time course of this and see You get actually more robust data at a lower cost without having to without without having the cost of a laboratory without having the cost of administering all this equipment and having and potentially you know marrying that with Robust AI classifiers for or sleep classifiers or eat data classifiers you can do a lot of the data scoring automatically and and remove a lot of the human element from from from data scoring I Want to get down to a more sort of fundamental level on that as well. So one of the things that in my perspective at least that's Hasn't really been considered is whether the theoretical framework underlying clinical trials is really taking into consideration how complicated if you will and complex the system is we're trying to cure and and I think We've been sort of using those the fundamental rule that is going to be a single cure for a single disease and that's most times wrong and Sort of looking for that magic bullet looking for that one thing that's gonna change everybody's life is not a good way to proceed with clinical trials So the alternative framework is to actually go back and think about how does the entire system work? And it's actually a complex system. It's a very nonlinear system We had sessions today talking about dynamical systems and talking about the complexity and emergence and so on and so forth And that skill set is actually quite useful to think about how things that happen in your brain Relate to things that happen in your body of things that happen to happen in your environment to your genes and so on and so forth So you think about how to use that knowledge then to to to guide your clinical trial to do a bit more work on personalizing and putting precision medicine That may change in fact how we do clinical trials because we're using much more information about the individual Instead of selecting only a small number of individuals ultimately for clinical trial You can look at everybody and actually make use of these wonderful frameworks are putting together for both AI for Biological modeling systems like virtual brain that taking a consideration the complexity of the system try and use that to really understand How these different systems to interact provide better solutions that ultimately will help the individual as opposed to helping one person out of a thousand So one part of the puzzle is we want more drugs and we want them cheaper and we want them sooner But the other part is on the innovation side, so at least most of you other than Randy are in firms Most of you are in Canadian firms How do we keep you here? So we see that the normal trajectory for a Canadian company as you develop your product with lots of Public money to support you at the early phases you get some private money you prove proof of concept and then You sell to the US or Europe or something. What can the government do? to keep you here I would say the first thing and you know for element one of the things that's been one of the drivers of our growth in Canada has been the talent pipeline, so Continuing that that training continuing to foster an open environment between The universities and the firms here. I think is a very important part of it I think you know, we're never gonna have the Venture capital or at least for the future. We won't have the same venture capital Abilities here as we do in the US And that's not a problem that throwing money at will necessarily solve so it's great to get venture capital from From the government, but it doesn't come with the same networks and expertise that a Season venture capital firm will bring to the table along with that money I think in terms of AI one of the things that will really help Canadian firm succeed is if we find ways to structure data trusts or You know data banks that are available to Canadian Emerging companies, so if we find ways to leverage the data that the Canadian government or you know Canadian people operating on Canadian soil are creating whether it's through actually taking government data or creating You know sort of a data tax on companies operating here and making that available to companies in a way That's obviously privacy preserving That'll help the Canadian operations of these different companies take off And I think that's one of the ways that we really have to be forward thinking It's not a way of operation that's really been done before But I think in order to really compete on the global stage. That's one of the things that Canadian companies are going to need You know, I think that's a great question and Canada generally Quebec specifically has attracted Tremendous industry here and many of our partners, you know Google Microsoft to name a few Are here and they're here for a reason because they have access to to brilliant people. They have access to data So part of the initiative that we're working on is to try to keep things that are positive in Canada it is part of our alliance We're bringing Intel into the mix. We're bringing Microsoft into the mix Which is which is working on very interesting AI issues not so much the actual AI capability But the massive parallelism to be able to pull that data in so at least it's our objective to try to work Within Canada and keep things in Canada. We're looking at companies and working with companies here one that was That was displaying outside is you're on digital pathology which worked with Alan and Catrin and your like Germany when we did the big brain data set. So we're trying to take that and project it Expanded first within Canada. I mean one of the things will do one of the good things about Dell is we're a go-to-market company We we don't compete with our partners. We try to have a joint go-to-market to drive them So one of the things we would do is come up with a simple story Drive a simple story to our sales reps have them tell the simple story to their customers and try to drive and propagate Systems that are developed in Canada within Canada, and then obviously Elsewhere hopefully to return revenue to Canada So yeah, I mean one of the things I think we have to do is just start believing that this can be an industry This can be a big industry. We know what the economic costs of brain disease are going to be if they're not already The solutions to this are going to be incredibly costly and incredibly profitable for whoever comes up with viable businesses to serve these needs So, you know, we've got Dell here telling us how awesome neuroscience in Canada is two days ago at the International Federation on aging it in Toronto There was a fellow from the Dementia Discovery Fund who said yeah I'm taking meetings all over Canada because you know, this is such a special place in neuroscience You really punch so far above your weight If we don't we should almost be embarrassed if we don't become the global cluster of Neurotechnology and of brain health companies We've got all of the advantages, you know academically We're there scientifically that we're there when you look at the work that's being done at the neuro and at OBI with the brain code database in aggregating all of this patient data from all over an entire province with a single-payer system We really should be able to pull this off And even venture capital even access to capital is getting a little better Even if it might never be as good as it is in the u.s. I think if we can believe it then, you know It'll start to actually happen people have to be willing to take a few risks Students have to be like looking around at different career opportunities creating roles for themselves in the private sector And this will just it's not gonna happen overnight, but it will happen somewhere And there's every reason why it should happen in Montreal in Toronto Yeah, I mean I concur with the other ones The the data is very important and to facilitate access to data and that like duplicate the work Let's say if I go to one hospitals to get some data and then another one or even like in different in different subfield of a specific hospital We have a great cluster academic cluster in Canada and in Quebec and in Montreal and And we all want to transit that that research to to some application that may be at some point game changers but we need to a compare to To take care of those of those new initiatives and provide them with the the right support data is one of them a big one actually and I mean the u.s. Market is much bigger, but we have this If we can support and give the data the right data and the right support to those company I think it's not gonna be a problem to they don't need to Even if they have money or capital from the u.s. It's not a problem They can stay here in Montreal or elsewhere and even if their market is in the u.s They can still stay here as long as there is some incentive or some justification like if the talent pool is here That's that's one of the big incentive and the other one. I think is mainly the data Okay, well, I promise that you get to you would have to ask questions of each other I gave you lots of time So who wants to start? You can be to a particular person or the entire panel Well, they're not lining up at the microphones If we want to go to the microphone go to the microphone and then we'll go to you guys and no one come back here So I entered the the whole just a little bit apparently after you started your talk and I'm puzzled by this Expenses for creating IP is going higher and higher and the profit is going lower and lower I can see that this happens in a drug manufacturing a but I don't see why it would happen in Computation, you know compute a computer software AI, etc. Because at the end It's computers that do not cost much and it's mainly the manpower. I don't see why And I believe you mentioned that this happens in all sectors not only the drug Manufacturer maybe you can explain that Yeah, it's not that profits go down. So individual firms aren't necessarily doing worse. It's that The the cost of doing the same degree of research if you want or the same contribution is going up So as long as you know individual firms will succeed Within that by by spending the money and we'll get it out But overall when you look at across the economy We're not getting the economic growth out of our investments in research And that's what's driving Governments to invest in research which is in the end they're hoping for some type of economic growth That is declining that is whatever we're researching is not contributing in the way that That technology in the early 20th century contributed to economic growth So we're failing to translate it as part of it But the research is becoming more complicated It requires larger staffs and and is being sustained so far because we're putting more money into it The question becomes when that money dries up, you know, and we just had the budget increase a lot for at least public sector research When we go back in three to five years and tell the government again There's done enough money into it at some point they may say no and what's gonna happen to the industry So we're not at a crisis point today But the data is showing that we need to find ways to reduce the cost And we're hoping that open science and informatics and so on can help us drive down those costs and be more productive So it's more of a warning sign Because obviously there are a lot of companies that make money now So it's a counterintuitive story I'm telling you because you look around you hear about the iPhone you hear about all kinds of stuff It looks like innovations everywhere But it's actually contributing less to the economy than we would like and in the health care sector we obviously see this with Increasing percentage of our provincial budgets and federal budgets going to or these provincial budgets going to health care Again a sustainability problem We'll have to see in the longer term that it's happened across most industries Frankly, this is too new a sector for anybody to make any firm conclusions about this sector Right, you'd need a longer history to be able to see what's happening compared to others So it might be an exception in this sector, but it's still an overall problem But the other thing about this sector is it's adopting open methods right from the beginning and so perhaps it will Overcome some of these problems because it often if we look at the Montreal community The reason we have such a vibrant community is because we were open at the beginning that brought people in and Del gave the industry some of the things they wanted. So maybe this industry is doing the right thing But we won't know for ten years until data starts accumulating. I Think a couple of general comments about your question What does all of this technology bring to us? How does it help us and I guess first of all Clinical trials are typically incredibly inefficient engines The pharmaceutical company asks a very very limited set of questions of a data set and if the drug doesn't work Then they essentially put that data on the shelf Increasingly we're in the position where they can share their data Why would they do that? Why would they give it away to the other guys? Well, the other guys are putting data in too So everybody can win if you have a slight shift in your mentality that we can explore pre clinically With a lot pre-competitively sorry with a lot of data that we would have otherwise had to find ourselves So I think that accelerates the process. You've got lots more people asking questions of the data Look at me Instead of three people asking data of that data set in a closed sense It's been made open and hundreds indeed thousands of people have explored that data set with all kinds of findings So that's an obvious case in point the second point I'd like to add is that Traditional models of clinical trials are very much stratified We have to make everybody look the same so we can test the impact of this drug, which is you know It the drug has been applied to left-handed white males. It's not generalizable beyond that as A left-handed white male. I think that's great, but it doesn't really help other people Now you put it out there and people can start to look at not tightly stratified data. They can allow masses of comorbid Patients to be Studied in such a way that you can explore much more subtle aspects of Comorbidities in a way which the typical clinical trial doesn't allow and The the CCNA the Canadian Consortium for Neurodegeneration and Aging Does exactly that I thought that it was a very bad idea when they first decided to throw all the patients into into the mix Now it turns out that that's actually a great Vehicle for AI and precision medicine and more sophisticated analytic techniques to tease out those comorbid those Mechanistic components rather than sticking everybody in a common label. You've got Alzheimer's disease You've got vascular dementia those things increasingly don't apply anymore and we're going to look to AI to give us a much more mature Perspective on the disease process Both of those things type of data and the analytics you apply Start here in this kind of form Thank you. Yeah Great panel. Thanks a lot and so I had a question about the legal implications of AI with respect to liability So as AI technologies are sort of coming to market in a serious way There's major questions related to who's responsible if AI fails and as health companies who Whose technologies impact actual patients? How do you think about liability legal liability with respect to AI? Is this something that you're concerned about or are you just waiting to see what happens with respect to courts and What laws we pass in the future? So it really depends on your claims basically if you want to have like an autonomous AI that will diagnose you without any intervention of a medical doctor then Definitely, this is something that you need to consider very strongly because you will have repercussion because you're the last line basically of defense before the diagnosis Most of AI applications are assistive tools to provide more information to the physician And at the end the decision and the final diagnostic is done by the By the the physician. So in term of liability You circumvent a little bit that part that said it's not an exception. It's not a good reason to do a poor job or have Algorithms that actually Have like very bad results like you still need to validate that Make sure that they do generalize on many type of population As on what's mentioning to have a diverse pool of subjects that are very heterogeneous that Like you make sure that you don't have a false positive and stuff like that But that those things can be measured as long as you have the data to measure them or you have access to that data Yeah, and I would add just more generally, you know outside the scope of AI and health I think there's a lot of There's a lot of conversation about what that means in terms of liability There's a lot of sort of doomsday scenarios that are being thrown out There's a lot of talk about you know killer robots and you know if a robot does this I think we tend to attribute More personality to to AI systems than they actually have in the wider community And that's something that we have to sort of fight against The fact is that most of the time These questions will be solved either contractually or By policy so you know a really good example is no fault insurance in Quebec in Canada, so People had these questions about you know if a car is driving and it hits someone who's responsible It's just much simpler on a societal site to societal level to say Okay, this is how we're gonna deal with it as long as there wasn't negligence on the part of the the AI developers and as long as You know as you said you're doing it responsibly. You're using the proper data.  That's happening We have to deal with it from the policy standpoint and there are places where that you know policy isn't there yet But I think that the large-scale deployment of these Technologies also isn't there yet and we just have to make sure that that goes hand-in-hand But it's not gonna be one of these scenarios where no one knows how to address their liability and no one knows Sort of no one knows who's gonna be ultimately responsible the legal principles we have in place still do apply for AI solutions There's a question over here and then After that, okay, this one's yeah one issue that I haven't heard brought up Everyone's commented over how important it is get to get access to the data But I'm a researcher in one of the institutes in Toronto I spend huge amounts of my time interacting with lawyers on data transfer agreements and Worrying about why the REB at that particular institution desperately wants to add a sentence to the consent form It's got a little better in Ontario with clinical trials Ontario But we have different legal frameworks for privacy in each of the provinces in Canada So we desperately need in my opinion and I'm curious to see what the panel thinks the government to actually get its act together and Fix the legal environment in which we're operating them because we seem to be way ahead of Where the law is and the law is way ahead of the people often we end up interacting with within the institutions In terms of what they know about what's allowed versus what we are actually trying to do And it's not just within candidates between countries to with with Europe Canada's reviewing its privacy law and we've got the two levels I mean one of the things when I mentioned open sign a signet is we're trying to Figure out Can we simplify? The I mean there are two parts one is getting the consent of the patient But then there's the sharing of the data itself So even if we get the right type of consent doesn't mean we can make the data available And what happens if in five years we discovered? Oh, we should have done it a little bit differently We don't want to have to re-consent the the patient we have to find other mechanisms So Bartha Knoppers at the Center for genomics is you know, one of the things they are looking at is that but I don't know if other people want to And you've got a federalism issue, which is not resolvable, but I don't know if I would say, you know, I definitely understand that concern the fact is most Most technology companies today do operate globally. They'll collect data At least somewhat globally they'll have global markets the standard practice is to comply with the highest standard and We're lucky in Canada that for a long time we had one of those higher standards So we got used to being a little more protective of data, which made it so that when GTB GDPR came into effect Most firms here were already Pretty compliant with that higher standard the that one of the issues is that I think as a profession Privacy law is something that was not really taught thought about practiced in a Really meaningful way up until recently and so I think like what you'll see a lot of people sort of being really hesitant to make changes to the form or Insisting on inserting this language that they got from their outside counsel that they paid a fortune for and don't want to go Back to is a lack of understanding of the interplay between These laws and these new laws and the technology itself And once you understand that full data flow and how it works as a lawyer It makes it much easier to be a bit more flexible and as a profession. We're not there yet, and I think that's something that we have to work on Yeah, I mean you can graduate law school without taking IP let alone knowing anything about consent laws, so So you may not be the right group of people to ask this too But one of the biggest problems with ensuring that data are that are generated inside of universities Are available is the sustainability of these data resources, and this is not a problem that governments have solved It's not something the research community has Figured out themselves because you ask any Individual researcher if they want part of their budget to go to infrastructure. They'll say no so Industry on the one hand Can benefit from this data and clearly, you know We have to do things a little bit better in the academy to have that happen But do you see scenarios developing where industry can help with this problem because it's really a global? It's a it's a global issue. I don't know of any field that is not facing us That's just a great question and I think of all the things that we're going to try to do Through this partnership with McGill is exactly that how do you How do you sustain a model so you can retain that data for long periods of time? How can you secure it? How can you audit it? And how can you have people come together to share data and then preserve that data set? that's at the very core of what we're going to try to do here at McGill and my belief is is that if we do this properly in the long run, it'll be Significantly less expensive There'll be higher utilization of the it that you have and there'll be a much better outcome I'm sure and I talked a little bit about this earlier I Think if we can build the it systems to be able to to to adequately secure and sustain the data and then we can have Issues around ethics and data sharing Oval in data gravity overlaying that will have a unique combination. So that really is why I'm here I think that's the number one issue Which will accelerate all of the things Yeah, and the and the idea is to not do that at all The idea is to just have it in a containerized environment, which is owned by the people who own the data But you can Microsegment that little environment so that small environment is owned by who owns it Not by industry. So clearly the objective here is not to To to own a controller data But to allow the people who have the data have interacted with the data with other people to be able to prove They did what they did and then be able to keep it themselves either Individually or institutionally that's really the holy grail and that's where we're going So another answer to that is that if you look at the incentive structure of For for data flow or for you know the creation of tools Ultimately the solution of code sharing was not solved by an open-source nonprofit initiative It was it was solved by github and then they sold for eight billion dollars and you know there the Eventually, this is probably going to happen to the the there's every reason to believe that this can happen to the Standardization and storage and maintenance of of data You know something that venture capitalists like to say I listened to probably too many of them But they one of the things that they like to say is if you're a hardware company You know you you're you're worth two times your revenue if you're a software as a service company You're worth five times your revenue if you're a data flow company and you're doing AI and your data And you've got a lot of data coming in you're worth ten times your revenue So there's every reason to believe that that the standardization of data Will be incentivized to happen in the private sector and that you know that rather than trying to charge you for storing data They'll give it to you free and then do a bunch of machine learning and make you dependent on them And make everybody dependent on them You know we've we've thought about you know, how do we maybe we don't just make our cloud We have a poster on our cloud architecture and how we do data science What if we just open up our cloud to everybody who wants to store EEG data and then we figure out how to make better tools Then we are the ones who have all the EEG data Wouldn't that be cool and it's cool from a scientific perspective, but it creates some interesting perverse incentives You know and I and I and I'm a I'm a proponent of open science There are probably lots of people out there who are thinking about this with brain data and with pharma data Who are maybe not so? Benevolently motivated I guess That's exactly right. I mean that's true of all of the consumer all of the big tech Yeah mentally if you can't control audit Maintain and secure your own data that we're going to be talking about this 10 years from now and people talk about the cloud They talk about all these other issues Once it's gone, it's out of your control and the game is over So fundamental basic tools that allow control security auditing your own control of your own data That's where immediate focus has to take Yeah, if I could just point out that Canadian government is currently reviewing its data strategy So given that you are data consumers, you should pay attention This is being driven by concerns that our data is being handed over to non-Canadian entities Specifically around Toronto But the government is actively looking at this Europe is ahead of us in terms of thinking about this They've developed the open science cloud So whole e infrastructure designed to support data without having The worries about control. So do we want that do we want more of a hybrid? These are all open questions Canada in terms of policy development is considerably behind Most of our competitors And so, you know, one of the open questions is what can government do here? And I think any infrastructure is clearly Part of what the government ought to be doing not only to provide the data But also all the governance mechanisms around it and it hopefully helps all some of the consent issues and I would add one thing that isn't probably isn't thought about very often in these circles, but That this is one of the things that competition law should be addressing There was a review recently in the last few years of the competition act and in the first drafts of it They focused a lot on data and you know players you have Dominant market positions in terms of data and what that meant and whether there should be positive licensing obligations on that type of player How that could be done? So that there was sort of a beginning of conversation about that To no one you know to any no septic surprise. Anyway, the next version of that paper did not contain that I think there's a lot of there's a lot of lobbying around that and being you know, as we just said being aware paying attention having a conversation about the importance of Competition in the data field is something that's very important Okay, we've hit Well, we've hit our time limit. I'm looking to our our organizer. I follow instructions One more question, okay, we'll take one more question because I've been given permission to have it asked Okay, how about I asked both of you ask your question and then we'll put it to the panel, okay Well, I'm kind of surprised. They haven't heard the magic word blockchain yet Not I'm not mocking as I've worked in it for many years. It has to do with things you're talking about data provenance data security data accessibility You can sort of think of a blockchain as this this Global database that nobody owns. It's like a whiteboard in the cloud where people sign documents and they're indelible and just a little example for example Now if I wanted to get my dental records Instead of trying to go through this siloed proprietary dental office database. I could have my dentist Sign and encrypt my documents and put them in the cloud. No one can see him But I mean, oh it can interpret them but me I know they're there if I want to sign them over to a new dentist. I can do it at any time This really I mean this there's a there's a whole world of possibilities related to blockchain That I think people should maybe maybe you are I don't know but I haven't heard the word yet Well, thanks for the layup on that because I agree blockchain is Perhaps the most important technology out there Blockchain and Splunk both So we're working with blockchain There was an indication on one of the slides that I passed We're working on blockchain both in the health care life sciences business as well as the financial business It's probably the most important technology out there and very important in consenting as well You can track all of that across the enterprise so at the end of the day the kinds of things we're talking about Containerizing data and using blockchain to overcome a lot of these problems is likely the answer and some of the big Payers in our insurance companies in the States are really beginning to aggressively use blockchain and Splunk for the very reasons you're suggesting Thank you There was one. Yeah Hi, so thanks a lot to the panelists. It's a great discussion I'm following on really from the question that came from somewhere over there about liability and there was an allergy made with Self-driving cars regulations and this is a very, you know, emerging area and so on but I'm really curious about and maybe I suppose maybe Sonya, but I guess all you guys can speak to it as in terms of informing the clinical decision-making process with new AI based technologies or Non AI based told technologies whatever but something that's not gone through the the kind of canonical scientific validation process What is what it how do you? In terms of the discussions you have with the clinicians how how do you kind of propose to inform and improve the clinical decision-making process and then just a kind of small follow-on to that is if there's a clinician who has like 10 AI companies who all have a product that is claiming to You know give them some improvement in their diagnosis Is that kind of an issue that could be coming on the horizon if they they get kind of saturated? Is this something that is you know, you've given some thought to Yeah, good question. So we actually do enforce the the traditional Clinical validation pathway, which is why we we started doing those clinical trials like I had mentioned earlier and Was the other part of your question? Okay, yes, so a lot of it actually isn't a two in clinical decision-making support systems a lot of it is not actually related to the advancement that AI can bring but rather enforcing measurement based care in clinical practice and especially in psychiatry making sure that you know clinicians are reporting in and and collecting standardized reporting measures of their patients in a way that is aggregated somehow and and then used to inform decisions and a lot of it then goes into the interpretability of ability the abilities of interpretability of on are able to interpret AI decisions and What sources of data and evidence base that an AI? algorithm draws upon to Suggest a certain treatments and to make that available to the clinician in an accessible format You know we all we all talk about big data big data AI and all the rest of it small data is also a very good thing you know population health and other things really bring forward issues that are invisible and Particularly in behavioral health and I call the behavioral health people the invisible patients because there's not necessarily in the record any kind of designation that really suggests that they've got a problem, but there are other markers such as obesity or or other issues as my diabetes and the comorbidities that indicate that that person needs behavioral health Help to get them off the couch to get them back into a productive environment. So, you know We're working with Hopkins using their their ACG's Grouping technology to be able to do exactly that kind of work So there are so many simple things here that we can do Without leaping towards really the exotic where we can really make a dramatic change. I think with that we are Preventing you from drinking So thank you to my co-panelists and I'll turn it over to Elena to Advise you where to get those Yes, so again huge thanks to all of our panelists, I think We still get good stuff left though for the day poster session starts now there's drinks and Canapes or something along those lines outside. So please check out all of the posters and demos And then we have the social tonight information should be in your programs book so after the post poster session, please join us at the venue For more drinks and more food and live jazz. So thanks for today you guys