All right. Hello, Michael. Thanks so much for joining me today. How are you doing? Good. Thanks for having me on. Yeah, absolutely. We're going to be discussing your brand new book, San Francisco, which is awesome. I've been really enjoying it, as well as an event that you have going on tomorrow. So yeah, I guess what I want to start out with, what inspired this particular book? Because you're focusing on San Francisco, a lot of the issues there, but I'm also curious, do you see this on more of a national level in different parts of the country as well? Yeah, so let's see. I wrote this book because I'm really concerned about what's happening around me, where I live. I've always been troubled by how we've dealt with a homeless situation in California. I think like a lot of people, I basically viewed it as a housing problem. I wrote an article, in fact, in 2019 arguing that we needed a state of emergency to increase housing to deal with the problem. And some friends of mine were like, this is heavily an addiction to mental illness issue. And I was like, of course, I knew that too. It's like, I think a lot of people be kind of go housing, mental illness, addiction. But the more I looked at it, the more I concluded that it was fundamentally about addiction and to the extent to which all addiction is about mental illness or untreated mental illness. It was also about that. I tried to write about that. I did write about it for Forbes. My editor was like, you're the, he's like, you're the energy writer, you can't do this. You know, so I was like, I knew that I knew that to get like any standing on the issue and to really talk about what was going on. I had to write a whole book. I want to add though that, you know, this book is really about the subtitle, the subtitle is called Why Progressives Ruined Cities. And so some critics, including friendly ones have just sort of said, you know, this isn't really a book about San Francisco. And that's true in the sense that, you know, if you want to read a great book about San Francisco, go read Season of the Witch, which is this, you know, incredible history of San Francisco. There's other great histories of San Francisco. That's not what I'm doing here. I'm trying to answer a particular question, which was how did we liberals, we progressives, we people on the left, get it so wrong? And why, how did it become so terrible? That's the fundamental issue. And so the book really, you know, I'm very gratified that people from Vancouver and Denver and Chicago and New York even, and even have now been written up in the Spanish and Danish newspapers of all places, you know, being like, there's something I'm describing that is, you know, more universal than just San Francisco. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I think the subtitle is a great place to start because as you know, and many of my listeners know, I'm, I'm a recovering opioid addict. I got sober in 2012.  Thank you. Thank you. And so, so yeah, I saw the subtitle and I, I view myself as pretty progressive and everything. I'm in the middle of the book. It's I love the book. And you recently wrote a piece about why we need to arrest drug addicts. And I'm reading it and I'm like, I'm a progressive and I agree with like 99.9% of what you're saying. So I think a good place to start. Can we kind of break that down? Do you think it's some progressives? Do you think progressives are moving into that direction? Or is it more, we're putting the wrong types of progressives in power? You know what I mean?  I'm like, wait, wait, you're not talking about me because I agree with you. Right. Can you break that down a little? Yeah. And that's the response that I'm trying to create. I want to make progressives uncomfortable. Very deliberate. I want to make my discomfort shared with other people on the left. Good. Yeah. I mean, this is my second thing I've done this on, which is I've done the same thing on the environment where I kind of go, environmentalists do this and that. And people are kind of like, well, aren't you an environmentalist? And it's like, well, yeah, but not that kind. And what comes out of it, what I'm hoping to have come out of it is some clarity about, you know, what we think is good, you know, regardless of what I think is progressive. I have abandoned the label progressive. So there isn't a big identity issue here. I have now, I'm now comfortable with calling myself moderate and liberal, although those aren't great. Those aren't particularly great words, not super compelling. Probably the reason you do, I do, you do a book is so you can kind of be like, okay, here's what I, here's what I think we should do. You can call it what you want. So yeah, I mean, the basic, I'm basically arguing for what every civilized country has done on this issue. I use Netherlands as the model because I think they're very liberal, they're very humane. No progressive is going to go to, okay, few progressives would go to Amsterdam and be like, this is fascism or something. You would be like, this is a lot, hell of a lot more humane than what we do in California and the progressive cities.  And the Dutch shelters are much nicer than ours. I don't know if we could ever get quite to that level, but certainly universal shelter. But then, you know, the part that breaks from progressives is housing earned.  I mean, it's bonkers, the idea that you're just going to give away apartments to whoever wants one. You know, some people, my aunt has schizophrenia, she did really well. She did as well as you could expect for a person with a really serious mental illness, lived in a group home, never lived on the street, never turned to sex work, never turned to hard drugs, smoked cigarettes her whole life. Fine. That's a good outcome for someone with schizophrenia, lived in a group home, had her own bedroom. There's, I can't find anybody on, I can't find any of the conservatives who will say that they don't think that people with schizophrenia shouldn't be taken care of.  Yeah. Right. So I mean, that's the basic vision. I do talk about crime. You know, I actually got involved in this issue 25 years ago working on decriminalization, criminal justice reform. I'm very concerned about mass incarceration. I don't think that we need super long prison sentences necessarily. I agree with progressives that a lot of prison sentences are too long. What we need is swift and certain sentencing, which means that people do get arrested for committing crimes, but the sentences are pretty, you know, you would, they'd be escalating, but you're trying to get people, you're trying to intervene to get people to help they need.  Yeah. So there's some, so there's, I guess that's why, when I describe, I think people kind of go, it's kind of moderate against this, I think very radical view that you can just get rid of the police, get rid of the psychiatric hospitals, get rid of homeless shelters. Everybody poor gets an apartment. That's just a really radical view. It's not realistic. It's not humane and it's contributed to the disaster on the streets. Yeah. Yeah. There's, there's so much, you know, I've had more and more people interviewing me about this, because I've been covering some of the topics like this morning I wrote a piece about the safe injection sites that they're opening up in New York City. And, you know, you and I are on the same page a lot when it comes to harm reduction versus like abstinence and actually improving quality of life, you know, and it, it, it has so many moving parts, but I guess a good place for us to start. And with you being in San Francisco, because like you said, like, you know, you were looking at it as like a homelessness crisis, right? And you started realizing the kind of mental illness factor. So for me personally, part of my story was, you know, when I got sober, I finally got diagnosed with generalized anxiety disorder, depression, mental illness runs throughout my family, my mom is a recovering alcoholic, all these other things, but I didn't get diagnosed until after I got sober and growing up, it made sense. Like right, like I had all these racing thoughts of anxiety, I was constantly just like, why can't I just be happy, right? I had no clue about any of this. So one of the things I try to do with my podcast, YouTube channels, increase awareness, right?  Because once I had my first drink and got drunk, I was like, oh, okay, cool, I'm going to do this because it clashed my mind and all that. So for you, with the research you've done when looking at San Francisco, like, how would you kind of, I don't know what, where would you place on the hierarchy of what are the biggest problems?  How do you see the main problem?  So I agree 100% with what you said, untreated mental illness and addiction is the main event. Housing is really expensive in Carmel and Beverly Hills, and yet there's no open drug scenes in those neighborhoods. Rents went up in Miami, Houston and Phoenix a lot. Those are warm cities. You don't have the same open drug scenes as you have in San Francisco. So on the one hand, you have open drug scenes because the society allows them. In San Francisco, it's a progressive political class that basically has defended open drug scenes, which is the right word for what we call homeless encampments. The Europeans call them open drug scenes, just addicts living in tents on the street. So I view it that way. I don't think you can solve this with pilot projects. I don't think this can be solved with another nonprofit initiative. I don't think philanthropy can solve this. This is one thing I've been saying to when I talk to folks on the political right. It's like enough with the charity approach. Like we've tried that, and you have to, this is the part that's liberal here, is you have to have the government take this on. You can have subcontracting. The Dutch have a big subcontract with Salvation Army. 2000 people, that's fine. If that works for them, and that might work here, but it's still taxpayer subsidized care, and that means that there's this concern for efficacy and that you often don't get with the private sector charities. The concern would be we want to have humane treatment of our brothers and sisters who got either addicted or they're just mentally ill, although even the mentally ill folks tend to have a substance use disorder. And some people, I was on Rogan and Joe was like, can we do a pilot program somewhere? And I was like, we've actually done enough pilot programs to know what works. It's not like a thing where you're like, gosh, we don't know how to deal with this. It's so mysterious that we have to do more basic science or something. It's like, no, you just go to Amsterdam, or you can kind of go to Portugal, or you could go to Japan. They all have variations, but there's still a basic scheme here, which is universal psychiatry, treatment and shelter first, housing earned, with a goal towards independence, with a goal towards rewards, but also consequences for misbehavior. That's the basic picture of it. And so sometimes it's just easier. I know you asked, like, how would you rank the problem? Sometimes it's easier just to describe the solution, because I think that sort of then sweeps in. I mean, I particularly think we need a new institution called CalPsych, which would be a state takeover, because I don't think the counties can solve this highly transient population. We used to call homeless people transients, highly transient population often escaping the law. I think you could do a lot of voluntary care for folks without having to arrest anybody. The best moment, of course, is right after people OD. Here, you've just been revived with Narcan, and you're just like, it's a miracle you're alive. It's a perfect moment to be like, hey, and look, this could be completely California. We have an organic farm rehab center three hours away from here, because there are things you got to get people out of the drug scene. Three hours away, you're going to do rehab there for three months. We're going to reaffiliate you with your family and friends.  I'm not a more, I mean, I think 12-steppers are amazing, so I don't, but I'm kind of like, if you need an antidepressant, or you need to be on methadone or suboxone, or even Adderall, if it's controlled and doesn't make you crazy, like exercise works really great. But I kind of go, you're getting that care though with a psychiatrist's involvement, lower paid healthcare workers, but the goal is, let's move you into recovery and independence. Yeah, so let me, I would love to know your thoughts on this, because I often discuss on the podcast, I was a political nihilist until like 2016, I was just like, okay, something's going on, I need to learn more about this and everything, and I became like a big Bernie supporter, mainly because of universal healthcare, right? I, when I was about two or three years sober, I started working at an addiction treatment center here in Las Vegas, and even with insurance, you're paying $3,000, $4,000 for deductibles, right? So, you know, you discuss this a little bit in the book, like right now, if an addict wants to get clean, right? Like, I know here in Vegas, you know, we have a similar issue with San Francisco. If you just want to get detoxed, you might be on a waiting list for weeks or months, and it's like, addicts aren't just, you know, wanting to get sober every single day, usually you have this very small window.  And I'm curious where you stand on just that idea, like you were talking about like cow psych, right? Yeah.  And instead, where, you know, I think you and I, or where we do agree, is that they're like, well, instead of getting to the root of your psychiatric issues, let's just find a safer way for you to use drugs, right? Yeah. And it's not, it's not improving that quality of life. So what are your thoughts on the issues with healthcare in whether it's California or just the country as a whole? Yeah. I mean, look, I, if it were up to me, just have a Canadian style system.  Why are doctors and nurses doing paperwork? I have no idea. Yeah. Psychiatrists are like the most expensive part of the mental health system. And so they should not be doing tons of paperwork. You know, a lot of it should be, so there's not a paperwork you have to do, but I mean, all this, all this paperwork that is in our system, I'm not dogmatic about it. The Dutch have a system like ours, and they just make sure that everybody gets covered. So they have universal coverage, but it's still a private, it's still a private insurer, private provider model. And then of course, you know, Vancouver is having the exact same problem we have in San Francisco, they have universal healthcare, and it doesn't matter if you, if you just allow people to use drugs on the street, it doesn't matter that they can get healthcare, they may not want to, you know, it's a lot of the time is, as you may know, or as I described, the health impacts on on street drug users are there not because they don't want to get healthcare, they often can, they just, just committed to maintaining their addiction and that's a full-time job. Yeah. So yeah, but I think that, you know, I definitely, you know, I interviewed a lot of conservatives for the book, and if you're, you know, Republicans, I was kind of like, what would you guys go along with here, you know, and where can we find to construct this proposal? And I think that I feel very confident that we could get Republicans, conservatives, and right of center people, including libertarians on board with universal psychiatry, and that that's going to be an easier ask than the whole healthcare as a whole, than Bernie, than Bernie care. Yeah. Gotcha. So the other, the other thing that we agree on a lot is, you know, like when I saw the title of your substack piece, like we need to arrest drug addicts, right? So I think that's one of my biggest issues, because the last time I checked the data, and I've been meaning to look at the more up-to-date data, is that like drug court systems work, right? And I've heard just a lot of BS and nonsense about it. But anyways, when I got sober, you know, I had no money, no insurance. Fortunately, my mom passed me in a sober living was like $500 a month, but half the guys in there were there because of drug court problems. So I actually got sober in Fresno, California. So a little bit south of you, right? So yeah. So one of my best friends, I'm, you know, I'm nine and a half years sober. He's been sober a little bit longer than me, all through a drug court system where they said, listen, we're giving you one of two options. Go to jail or go to treatment, right? He did an outpatient treatment for like, I think like six or nine months. He was doing a suboxone taper. It was, it was kind of long. It was like two or three months or whatever. And man, he got his felony expunged, right? He went back to school.  And then I have another friend who's been sober about just as long, same thing, drug court system.  Like you talk about like this kind of victimization. And that's where, that's where I distance myself from progressives of those like, Oh, they're so fragile and stuff. It's like, no, people need consequences for me. My rock bottom was either get sober or my mom was going to have me live on the streets back here in Las Vegas, because I had nowhere else to go.  So I did what I had to do to stay sober. So yeah, so yeah, can you, can you discuss some of the, you know, data or what you found with like drug courts and how this system kind of works?  And I want you to meet my friend Tom Wolf, who's a character in San Francisco, who's starting a group of called Recovery Education Coalition that you would definitely be grateful for where that's all he wants to do is go around and talk about this issue. He also identifies as progressive or I think as a moderate now. So yes, the scientific evidence is all there for this. It's called contingency management or abstinent contingent housing. But I saw it in practice in Netherlands where, you know, housing was used as a reward for good behavior, but you just gave another one, your felony charge, your friend's felony charge was removed. I assume he was taking a drug test, by the way. Oh yeah, yeah, the outpatient center and in the civil living. So he was getting doubled up on these drug tests. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so, you know, that's like something, of course. So yeah, I love that.  He's like, you always have to have a carrot and stick. He's just like, just train your mind to think of that. There's always a reward and there's always a consequence, you know, for people at every stage in their own personal plan that exists. And the evidence is very strong for it.  A lot of anything can be a reward. And that's particularly important for cocaine and amphetamine users, but it's important for opioid users too. It's important for everybody.  I'm not going to eat that candy now. I'm going to reward myself after I do this thing, right? It's like, it's like a fun, it's like a, it's a really neat application of what became a kind of dark psychological tradition of what was called behaviorism, and it's now called has been rebranded operant conditioning. But you know, we're animals and we respond to rewards, you know, through stimulus and that's fine. And that's okay.  And most people think it's really positive. And you are starting to see some of that being more mainstreamed, although Governor Newsom vetoed a big contingency management program in California in his last budget, because the, so right. So then you interview my longtime friend, I don't know if he's still a friend, I don't know if he's right, San Francisco, yeah, but lifetime friend, Ethan Madleman, who was George Soros's main guy, and he would always have these arguments against drug courts. And it was like, you know, if you listen to him, it's like kind of all coming down to him basically saying that he didn't like the restrictment on freedom. And, you know, and then they kind of make up, they kind of go find some justification for it, you know, about how supposedly it doesn't work. It works just great, you know, and of course there's recidivism. I mean, there's recidivism, or relapsing, I should say, for addicts. I mean, that's part of off and kicking addiction. So that's, that's fine. But yeah, the evidence is very strong for it. I saw it at work in the Netherlands.  And that's where I'm like, because that's where I was like, okay, so how many people do you give heroin to, you know, in the Netherlands, right?  And of course, it's not true. They put coercion and pressure on addicts to quit. But the Dutch do give heroin to something like 150 people, though. I mean, so that's the thing is you kind of go, and these are people that they've tried to get off heroin for a long time. And they just, these are people that just can't do it, you know, and it's people that are like, struggling and just the relapsing.  And so you're going to come into this clinic, and it will supervise you doing heroin. But it's not this thing that like New York and San Francisco are proposing where it's kind of like, like, I could show up. I mean, that's the impression I get. I could show up and go, hi, I'd like to smoke fentanyl. Which they should be like, no way, dude, like, there's no way you should let Michael Schoenberger just build a waltz into a room like that and smoke fentanyl. But how are they going to govern that? I mean, there's no overarching system. So they're taking this one piece of the Dutch system, and then putting it in the wild west of America where there's no psychiatric care system, there's no mandatory addiction, the drug courts have been decimated by progressives. Yeah, not a good idea. Yeah, it's wild. Like, you know, I, when I tell my story and stuff like that, I, you know, I refer to myself as a chronic relapser, but I've met people who relapse kind of like what you're talking about where they just like can't, right? But I've met so many people who had just years of relapses. And then finally, like myself, something just something clicked, right?  So there's something something is working, but it kills me because it feels like we're not giving these people an opportunity by just making everything easier for them. You know what I mean? And I, there is this issue too of when I look at like safe injection sites, like when I heard about, you know, New York City opening it up. And I think about it like, we're not considering how this affects other people, right? When I was working in treatment, part of my job was to follow up and talk with family members. And I did family groups and things like that. And it destroys families, right? So when you're just having your addict son, addict daughter, whoever it is, husband, wife, just go into these safe injection sites, they're not, they're not improving their life.  A few of them I've seen offer some kind of treatment. And they're, they're kind of like, Hey, you know, we'll bait you in and but we want you to get absent, but it's very, very rare. So can you kind of describe for all the wonderful listeners out there who have yet to read your awesome book? What's it like in San Francisco? What are some of the policies that they're pushing? You know, like, I think there was a part of your book where you said there's like billboards that are even like, Hey, use heroin like safely. And I'm like, what, what are we talking about here? So yeah, how are they incentivizing people like, are there any incentives to actually get clean and to get your life back on track?  So one thing you do is you raise the bottom. That's what a family intervention or any intervention in the life of an addict does an arrest does that, it raises the bottom, it goes, Okay, you hit bottom now.  Like that's like the ultimate bottom is death. So we're going to arrest you. That's why you should arrest addicts is to save their lives that that raises the bottom. So what harm reduction people are doing is they're continually lowering the bottom and they lowered the bottom so much that we got to death. And then they go, Oh, okay, now we got to just do more Narcan, you know, to avoid that. But the step of arresting people is completely taboo, like literally not even discussed in San Francisco completely taboo, you're called a fascist for even suggesting it.  What's the difference?  So we're just going to give them clean needles.  You know, they started one of the things I quote was this great one, it was like the homeless service providers, because you know, they're like, they're social workers. And so they're just very empathic and whatever. They think their job is to serve homeless people full stop. There's no other consideration to being able to walk down the sidewalk. No, no, that has to be sacrificed for the compassion for these victims. And they would they would do this research and they'd come back the homeless service would and they'd be like, we discovered that people on the street really want the services brought to them. They don't want to have to go and get them. I mean, it's just like, you know, this one of the characters in the book kind of refers to it as Butler service, you know, so you end up with these tents. So I mean, the picture is this really dark, you know, brave new world picture where it's like, okay, so we're going to have a whole class of people that every four hours go into a facility and smoke fentanyl or get injected with it or smoke meth or inject it under the supervision of doctors or healthcare providers and they're going to go back out to their tent and lie down and be high or run around and be high.  Like that's it. That's all that's happening now. And that's the like there is no vision beyond that. And they don't want a vision beyond that. That's the vision is to keep all those people alive intense. And that's it. Like I kept being like, Oh, come on, like what's, you know, what comes after that? Or like, what's the plan to get them, you know, they sort of do it with the safe injection sites, they go, Oh, and they'll, and then they'll have access to treatment.  No, no, that would be stigmatizing people. Yeah, that would be being mean.  And it's just so familiar to me, you know, it's this kind of it's liberal, you know, it's just this idea that asking people that you've designated as a victim to do anything is just considered wrong. Yeah, and it becomes kind of competitive among those people.  And they just they only have one thing to say, which is just that these people are victims, they're sacred. Anybody that tries to make them do anything is evil and fascist. And that's kind of the end of the story for them. Yeah, it's, it's crazy. I don't know if it's because I'm a father. Right. But when I hear some of this just helps.  How is he ever going to succeed in this world? Right. And you know, I got in a little trouble because my YouTube channel was mainly like addiction recovery and mental health stuff. And I had that very tough love approach, but that that's come from years of seeing people die from not just overdoses, right, but suicides because they're absolutely miserable. You know, yeah. And and I look at that and that's why I look at this as a, you know, a bigger issue where we need to improve quality of life and things like that. But let me, let me ask you this. So when we, when we're talking about homeless drug addicts, right, one of the, one of the issues is, okay, let's say we, we give, we send one of these homeless addicts to a drug court and we say, okay, treatment or jail, they're like, okay, treatment, right? Well, if they're just doing outpatient treatment and we're not providing them with like sober living and things like that where, you know, mostly at times, if you do want to get a job, you need an address, and you know, and all these other things. So right, how do you see, you know, the steps towards a solution to start helping the homeless people? If you give them this ultimatum, where does it go from there? Once we get them to say, Hey, okay, I'm ready to get treatment. I'm ready to get help if we were to go that well. Yeah, I mean, that's where you have to have, you have to have a whole system. I mean, that's why I say CalPsych.  So you can have people in Fresno rather than in San Francisco where it's going to be, I mean, at least 25% cheaper, maybe half as expensive, you know, plus you're out of out of the drug scene. You know, ultimately, those people have to folks have to reaffiliate to use the technical word with family and friends and get a job and all that. But I don't see anything wrong with a 90 day inpatient. Yeah, I'll pay out of patient outpatients obviously much cheaper and better in some ways, if people can pull it off great, but I do think you're right, especially fentanyl man. I mean, fentanyl, the level of addiction is just kind of, it's scary. It scares me.  And then you're kind of like, what else are you going to do, man?  It's just, you know, there's not like, I think people that don't understand addiction, they kind of go, they go, well, no, they'll like, I mean, with they think of it as like methadone, where you can function to some extent or it's a box of that fentanyl, you get smoking fentanyl every four hours, you're not going to work and being like, you know, a creative type or something or even working in a manual labor, you can't do that. So yeah, you have to have that overarching system. And then you're, and then I think you are buying from a lot of different for-profit providers, but you're able to use the, your purchasing power to also, you know, buy things for cheaper and, you know, you're not so dependent on a couple of big healthcare providers, which is what San Francisco is dependent on right now. Yeah, yeah. And kind of like what you mentioned a little bit earlier, like we're not, we don't need to reinvent the wheel. We have, we have places that are doing it effectively. And, you know, I've, I've worked with and talked with people who run various treatment centers, sober living homes and, and, you know, just for example, at my sober living home, I wasn't even required to get a job. We just had weekly tours, right? Like one week I had, you know, my responsibility was, you know, the kitchen, the next one, it was like the bathroom or the living room or, you know, whatever. But some of these programs are like, hey, if you stay here, you need to get a job, right? After X amount of time. And, and you see this kind of incentive, but then, but then like you get this sense of accomplishment too.  I'm providing value to, you know, I'm a, I'm a citizen contributing to this. And, you know, what one thing I wanted to ask you about, because you touch on this in the book too, is that the San Francisco overdose rates haven't really gone down since they've, you know, become a little bit more progressive and saying, Hey, don't stigmatize these people and everything like that. So, right, one question is why, why is that, right? If they're, you know, trying to help more people and distribute more, you know, Narcan and things like that. But also, why is nobody recognizing like, Hey, what we're doing isn't working like it's, it's like, you know, the drug war, right? And all that we haven't seen too many benefits from it. How come nobody's changing course and saying, Okay, we're not getting the results that we want from this. So what's going on there? Well, it makes you wonder if they are getting the results they want. I mean, I don't mean to sound like a conspiracy theorist, but it's more like they're not, they're not as unhappy with it as we are.  And you're like, well, but I'm not judging. I'm like concerned. Yeah, you know what I mean? I'm not like, I'm not approved. I just, these people are dying, right? Well, that's why we're expanding Narcan. Well, okay. Yeah. And you might actually, if you were deaths in 2021 and 2020 in San Francisco, not a lot fewer, you might have 600 deaths rather than 700. But what are we doing here guys? Yeah. Yeah. And then, and then of course, cities do have a right to exist sidewalks should not be for sleeping. That's okay for residents to demand that they have a city that's totally in our rights to have a city as opposed to allowing public camping everywhere. You've got a very powerful moralizing minority that's controls the homeless budget that controls the health department. You know, and the degree of that control by progressives depends on the city you're in. So Boston, my sister's in Boston, and she was like, Mike, you know, your book is really just about progressives in California and Boston, we don't allow open drug scenes. Well, the new progressive mayor of Boston just stopped the clearing and closure of an open drug scene at a place called Mass and Cass. The reasons she gave were the same reasons that progressives have been giving in San Francisco for 20 years. In Washington DC, three city council members just demanded that they stop clearing an encampment. I don't love that phrase. I would prefer to say they stopped shutting down an open drug scene. Before the winter, because they, I mean, it was the most twisted I could actually had to read the headline twice in the name of preventing hypothermia, they want to leave people on the streets. So I mean, you kind of go, what is the justification they give?  But it all is based on this idea, you know, I don't know if you're how deep your knowledge of progressivism goes, but there's this really bad idea of representationalism, which you might have heard, like if you attend progressive meetings, there's a very literal sense of representation that like, certainly white people could not talk about what black people need, certainly not, but they get very extreme, right? Like you would just every single identity can only speak for their own identity as opposed to like, like no, actually, psychiatrists can actually address mental health issues and it doesn't matter what race you are. Psychiatrists can do that because they have psychiatric training and whatever. So there's a lot of that, which is sort of, well, who would we be to tell addicts what they want? And you're like, well, they're in the grip of an addiction.  And like, oh my God, I can't believe I said that.   Like, it's like people, like, have you even seen train spotting? I mean, do you have any awareness? Which of course is absurd, because most people do have some awareness of drug addiction. And they, I mean, I assume a lot, I have three friends, two friends died, one friend is still struggling with drug addiction.  And you're like, no, like, no, like, that's not, that's not okay. Yeah, now, now you're getting me all riled up, Michael, because I could not agree more. Like, when you're talking about, yeah, I've had, I've had a lot of guests on here, you know, talking about this kind of representation and everything. And I'm like, to an extent, but when it comes to like science, like, psychiatry, and, you know, even when we're talking about the pandemic and everything's like that, it's like, no, get the experts, the people who've been researching this their entire lives, they have schooling and all this. But when it comes to addicts, like, like exactly what you said, and here, since I'm an addict, I'll say it for you, right? Like, I was a crazy person. I was absolutely out of my mind. And I don't think people understand that to, to ask an addict what they want. Like, if you asked me 10 years ago what I wanted, my answer is drugs, easy assets, access to drugs, money for drugs, everything that'll make my life easier to get drugs. Like, I was nuts. Like, at the end of my addiction, I wasn't even allowed to see my son anymore, because I was a danger to him. It wasn't, it wasn't good. You can't, you can't ask somebody who is not in the right state of mind, because these substances just increase whatever mental health issues you have. So to go to that person and say, Hey, what do you think, what do you think would work for you? Like, yes, I do think, to an extent, there is this kind of like collaborative effort, you know, for rehabilitation. But part of that is after detox, like, when, when you're detoxing, like I cannot explain, I was, I was losing it in a hospital because I was coming off of alcohol, I was coming off of opioids. I was trying to fight nurses, right? Like it was, it was complete insanity. So for someone to come in and say, Hey, Chris, I know, like, you know, you're trying to fight everybody in this hospital, but what do you think would be a good solution for you? Like, that makes no sense at all, you know? And, and I, I don't, I don't understand it. Like, who's benefiting from this? That's, I guess that's my question, right? Is it, is it, is it this kind of virtue signaling aspect? Like, Hey, look, this is how progressive or, you know, whatever I am, like, I don't think people really understand that this kind of woke conversation. Like I have like John McWhorter on here a few weeks ago to talk about his new book, and I've had like other people. But the reason I got interested in the whole woke topic is because I don't think people understand that it's trickling into the mental health conversation, the addiction conversation, and taking over. It's not even trickling in, man. It's taking over. So I agree. Who's benefiting? Yeah. Why is it, why is it happening? Yeah, yeah. Well, for sure, that's the right question. Qui bono.  That can't entirely explain it, because somebody's always going to make money. Salvation Army's making money in the Netherlands. And, and, and everybody's very happy about that. Not everybody, but, you know, mostly people are like, it works. So who cares if they make a lot of money? The second is the kind of power.  But basically, the most power, the most powerful person on this issue is a woman that runs a small nonprofit in San Francisco. She's completely ideological driven. She doesn't make a big salary. Jennifer Friedenbach with the San Francisco Lush on Homelessness just just she's not like as my I have all these people that are like, she must be making so much money. And I'm like, no, like she's got but she really controls a budget of $800 million at this point. And that has that satisfying. That's a lot of power that she's amassed. And she has a lot of social power, a lot of respect, a lot of recognition, a lot of influence. People are scared of her. You know, the person I had that was like, I want to go on the record and talk about this then in the middle of the conversation when he started talking when this person started talking about her said, you know, I want to go off the record. So so I think the third thing though is that it's a religion. It's just what you said, you know, it's a kind of substitute religion. It's the where it explains the dogmatism, the intense closed mindedness, the the the aversion to evidence, and to real world realities. And then, you know, we created this book religion categories where we can see, you know, ways in which they make victim sacred, they make the police and psychiatrists into devils. There's all sorts of weird creepy language that's a characteristic of cults and new religions, you know, we have to center, you know, we have to send trauma based and in centering, you know, victim groups and substance use disorder, there's a whole medicalization that goes on. It becomes very cult like and very dark. And so yeah, there's a lot of people that the progressives, you know, benefit from it, then it spirals out of control. And that's where we are now, you know, is that they didn't they're not long term thinkers in that sense. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, the further we get into this conversation, even though we're wrapping it up, I'm just I'm so glad that we had it because I got into all of this, these conversations because I was canceled on YouTube in 2019 for having a lot of contrary life, not even controversial, just science based discussions around addiction and mental illness and, you know, so many things. And it was mind blowing, like because, you know, because it's crazy. Yeah, somebody must have tried to get you canceled. Oh, oh yeah, if you yeah, when you get time just YouTube the rewired soul and you'll see videos with millions of years, it's it's quite bonkers. But it happened because I was I was talking about some of these things. But I had to start taking videos down because the harassment and people like yourself and many others who talk about just like the the world culture or you know how they're trying to control language and narratives and all these other things, like it inspires me and it gives me a little bit more courage to start speaking up about this stuff a little bit more because I felt like I was alone and I was just like, okay, I'm oh, yeah, I'm just done. But you know, it's it's it's it's really crazy.  And have you seen the woke religion taxonomy? You got to look at this thing we created, I'll send it to you because we have drugs on there. And you got to look at it and tell me whether or not you agree. I'll share it with you. Yeah, yeah, I've seen a couple things floating around like Peter Bogosi and he was on the podcast. Yeah, he was sharing that that one. He's my co-author. Okay, beautiful. I share it in there. Yeah. Yeah, so I just share with you. It's something that I hope to educate more people about because you know when it comes to just you know some of the debates around like, you know, critical race theory or even when we get into the trans debate, I'm like, okay, these are social issues. But like when it when it comes to addiction, like we just had 100,000 people die last year. It's like, this is a real thing that is killing people like people are dying, you know, and that's why I really think it's so important that people like yourself, Peter, whoever are talking about this because I hope they realize how it's just overtaking this very serious conversation. So, you know, one of the, you know, one of the last things I wanted to ask you, you have this event happening tomorrow at the time of recording this and we're going to get this episode out. But what is the goal of this, this protest, this event that you guys are doing out there? Yeah, yeah. Well, thank you so much. So this is, I've been struggling a bit right now because I have a mixed identity as an author and an activist and I've been struggling in a variety of ways to try to do them both.  I wrote Apocalypse Never and San Francisco because I felt like I had to as part of my concern around as a social change advocate. But it's very, it's very, this particular work is so, you just described it, I mean, the death, it's so dark, dude. You know, put it in context, my views on the environment, so I'm contrarian on both of these issues. I think environmental trends are going in the right direction, including our climate change. I think things are basically getting better. So my book on the environment was this really positive book.  I mean, just to read it now, but I mean, you lived it. So it's, you know, you, maybe I think recovering addicts are just geniuses in my view at sort of psychological geniuses. Yeah, because you guys are so honest and there's so much courage that you've overcome and there's something very special. They're the heroes of this book. In fact, there's a chapter as you have you ready yet called the heroism of recovery. So this, we've created a coalition with recovering addicts, parents of kids killed by fentanyl, who are also very profound, deep, dark people, but also very bright, you know, and then, and then parents whose kids are addicts on the street and could die any day. We created, I'm really proud of this little coalition we created that has an agenda that we've, it's kind of our constitution of things we believe in, shelter first, treatment first, housing earned, universal psychiatry, enforce the laws. And then, and so we're just getting started, but we're doing our fourth protest in San Francisco. We were going to do civil disobedience, and we decided against it because there's a police shortage. Oh, and also civil disobedience, you know, we were because we were kind of like we're supposed to be in like how come like on the one hand we still the prom you kind of go how come here you have 100,000 people dying from this thing. That's three times more than from car accidents. That's like five times more from homicides in an average year. Like why is nobody talking about this? Why is it a third tier issue? Like what is the deal? How is this like not like a national emergency? Like why are we talking about I mean as an environmentalist, I'm like, this is way more important than climate change. There's nobody's ever going to die. There's not going to have 100,000 deaths from climate change, you know. So yeah, so we wanted the civil disobedience to kind of get attention, but now, but since then it's been like, okay, people know, I think there's more awareness that there's a prom in San Francisco. So we're now really just trying to focus on the agenda and build support for it.  And that's kind of the theory. Our theory of change is that we need to grow and we basically need to start becoming more active both at the local state and federal levels to demand the kind of changes that we want. I mean, that includes an end to housing first and the substitution with shelter and treatment first and housing earned. That has to be changed to the federal level as well, the state and local level, break up the open drug scenes, arrest people that are breaking the law, you know, give them treatment as the alternative. But that's basically it. You know, we kind of go, this should be, I think we do feel that we are going to succeed. It's just going to take a little while. Yeah, no, everything, everything that I've heard you say, everything I've seen you write about, I'm like, I don't, I just don't understand why this is so controversial, right?  Like, I think, you know, one of the first, this is one of the first news stories when it, when they said, Hey, a hundred thousand people died, then everybody talked about it for a day. Now it's gone. It's out of the news cycle again. And this should be something we're talking about because I don't think people understand it. This is what I always think about for every drug out of it, there's an entire family that's affected like every, like just about everybody at least knows somebody who has struggled. So I really appreciate and respect what you guys are doing and fighting the good fight. And I'll take a look at it by anything I could do to help support this because I do think we need better conversations and to not, you know, baby people so much because it's, it's, it's not working, you know, what I mean. So with your book, it's out. It's awesome. Is it out internationally yet or is it just United States based? Nope, it's just in the United States and Canada at this point. But let's hope. Yeah, it was translated into 17 languages. So let's hope it, it happens. Yeah. Okay, cool. Well, if any of my lovely listeners don't know where to find you, where's the best place to find you, keep up to date with your writing, as well as where can they find more information about the coalition? Yeah, so it's a California piece, coalition.org is where people should go. People should go to Amazon and buy the book San Francisco. I'm on Facebook and Twitter. If you Google me, you'll find me. And yeah, I would love to hear from people would love to grow the coalition. I respond to every substantive email. Yeah, Michael Schellenberg at gmail.com. I can vouch for that. That's how we got connected. So yeah, Michael, Chris, what a pleasure, man. I'm so glad to hear your story and we need your voice. It's so important. I'd love to, I'm actually going to look up what happened with your YouTube channel. That's very interesting. Yeah, absolutely. And I'm sure, you know, when we find some time, we'll probably do this again to see if anything's changed. And if we're moving in the right direction. So I appreciate you coming on, man. Absolutely. Thanks, Chris.


Today I'm going to share with you a detailed guide to help you pack for the classic Inca Trail to Machu Picchu four days on the Inca Trail. This is in preparation for the group trip that I'm leading and hosting November 6th of 2023. If you want to join me in future trips to Peru for the rest of 2023 and 2024, check the link in the first comments. So this is pretty similar to what I packed in 2018 for the first time I hiked the Inca Trail with some modifications to make things easier and better for you. So we'll talk about bags first. We'll talk about water system shoes and then we'll cover the rest of the gear, including clothing and toiletries. All right. So I have to start with my duffel bag. Do you really need a duffel bag? No, but this is something that I use instead of taking the carry on. This is the bag that I will check. So everything that you will see here for the most part will go inside the duffel bag and I choose a duffel bag because it's pretty durable. I don't worry about the wheels, about breaking. And also because it's a duffel bag, it can fit way more than what a carry on can fit. So I go with this duffel bag from the North Face, large is the size. And I think this is a great investment. If you know that you're going to be going on other trekking adventures in the future, I highly recommend it. As you know, on the Inca Trail, you're going to be with a team of porters who will be carrying provisions and supplies that you will need for those four days on the mountains. And you're not going to give them that duffel bag. Most likely that's a duffel bag that will stay back in your hotel. Usually the companies that take you to the Inca Trail will provide you with a bag where you can fit all of the extra luggage that you want to give to the porters. So I just want to throw that out there because for some other treks, like Kilimanjaro, for example, the porters do take the entire duffel bag. So just to clarify that, that is not required. All right. So the second thing is the backpack that you will be carrying on your bag for the actual hike. Before I talk about the day pack, I want to clarify that every company has a different offer. So some companies will offer porters to carry some of your gear. And that's usually included in the package. Some companies you will have to pay extra for the weight that you are given to the porters. As you know, on the Inca Trail, you're going to be with a team of porters in addition to your guide and assistant guide. And so the porters are usually carrying the provision and supplies needed for those four days on the trail, including kitchen supplies, food, tents, sleep and mats. But for the extra gear you'll have with you, you can make the choice to either give some of it to the porters or carry everything on your own. And like I said, it's just different from one company to another. For our group trips, what we do, we allow our travelers to give up to 15 pounds included to the porters and you will end up just with a day pack. For that scenario, I suggest something between 20 liters up to 40 liters, depending on what type of traveler you are, because some people do like to pack extra snacks and extra gear just to feel comfortable on their day hacks. But for our group trips, I suggest something at least 20 liters. So this is an example of a day pack. This is the Osprey Talon for 22 for men. I don't have mine. I can't find it here. But this will be great because, like I said, you will just end up with the in your day pack. You would need water. You will need some snacks, small emergency kits, a layer or two, rain jacket, a poncho, rain cover and really just the essentials for that specific day hike and the rest will be given to the porters. So this is what I suggest between 20 liters, 30 liters will be ideal. You can go up to 40 liters. But if you are the type of person who doesn't want to give anything to the porters and by that, I mean the porters will still carry the tents and the sleeping mats.  You will need at least 60 to 65 liters. This is pretty much the only backpack that you will need on the mountain. I'm going to cover the water system. I prefer using a water bladder. This is the Osprey three liter water bladder. I've used this one for so many years and it fits up to three liters. So when you are hiking the Inky Trail, the team of porters and the chefs, they will provide you with water on the trail. So they boil water on the trail to make sure it's safe for you to drink. And at camp, whether you are starting your hike in the morning or if you stop for lunch, they will fill your water bladder. So what I like to do, just fill this water bladder and use the tube to keep myself hydrated. And usually with the Osprey backpack, it fits right here. There is a compartment that's separated from the inside of the backpack. And I really like that because if I need to stop and grab things from my backpack, I don't have to battle my way. So this would be three liters of water. And I do suggest that you also take a water bottle with you. So you can go for something around like one liter, one point five. So a camelback like this one or you can go for a smaller Nalgene water bottle. And the reason I prefer to, in addition to the water bladder to take a bottle with me is that if I want to use some electrolyte tablets, like the noon tablets, I'm going to show them to you in a little bit. Instead of using the noon tablets in my water bladder, it's going to get sticky. I'd rather use it in my water bottle and keep my other water clean and separated. OK, so that's for the water system. Tracking poles, you have an option to either bring your own tracking poles if you have a pair that you really like, or you can rent them from the company that you're tracking with when you get there. So we have both options available for our travelers. Just one tip, if you choose to take your tracking poles with you, you cannot have them in a carry-on in the airplane for most of the airlines. Some airlines will let it slide by because they see tracking poles as a potential weapon, so they have to be in your checked bag. So that's another reason why I prefer to have my duffelbag to throw my tracking poles in there. And also, if you plan on taking them and have a rubber stopper, I think that's what they call it because, like you see right here, they are pretty point so they can damage your duffelbag. So make sure that you have this rubber stopper to keep them protected. All right, so about shoes, you need your hiking shoes or the boots that you're going to be hiking in. And it's a good idea to pack something that you can use around camp when you finish hiking for the day. You just want to lounge around camp. It's good to have a pair of camp shoes. This is my favorite pair of hiking boots. And when I'm choosing hiking boots for the Inca Trail or long tracks like the Inca Trail, I look for something that has good grip that can manage the terrain. I look for something that can provide me with some ankle support. And that's why I prefer boots rather than trail runners or low-cuts hiking shoes. And I look for something that is waterproof because it's very possible to get some rain on the Inca Trail. So this is Goretex, so it is waterproof. And the thing that I love about this pair of hiking boots is that it's so soft and comfortable from the inside. I've tried so many brands, but this is the softest pair of boots that I have. All right, so this would be my main hiking boots. I would wear them every single day. And then when I am at camp, I don't have my camp shoes with me. I will leave a picture right here so I can either go for something that looks like this or I can take my sandals. I like my sandals around camp. Usually I would keep my socks and then wear them. They are pretty comfortable so I can either go for one or another. The truth is you don't really need 100% clean clothes for every single day because if you go that route, you're going to end up with so many clothes and that's not necessary. But I will just give you an idea about things that you will absolutely need. So first of all, you will need a fleece jacket or a down jacket to keep you warm for either cold nights or if it gets cold when you are hiking. And then it comes with its own rain jacket. So you want to look for something that's going to protect you from the rain in case it rains while you are hiking and with a hood for rain protection as well. I bought these two as one piece. Again, I will link to everything that I'm showing you today on this video. So when it comes to pants, I would say no more than three pants and that's already too much. I think that's what I packed in 2018 but this time I'll probably just take two pairs that should be enough for four days. So when you are picking pants, look for something that can dry quickly, quick dry, something that's light. And I like pants. I don't really like to hike in shorts because A, it protects you from the sun. It protects you from the bugs. If there are any bugs or mosquitoes on the trail, just a personal preference. If you can find something that can roll and maybe you can wear it as short if it gets pretty warm, that could be a good option too. So I took two pairs. These are pretty similar from Colombia. I took another pair from Prana. And then right here, I added the rain pants. This would be important if you choose to hike the Inca Trail during the rainy season. If you know that you are going to get a lot of rains, I think it's a good idea to take rain pants with you. But if you are going in the dry season or in between the dry and rainy season, where it might rain one day, but it's not going to rain the whole time, then I don't think rain pants will be necessary. But it's a personal preference for me personally. I don't think I will be packing rain pants, but I thought I'd share it with you. When it comes to layers, I would say three should be also enough. I look for something that's quick to dry, omni heat. These are some layers from Colombia. When I started hiking, this was the type of layers I would go for. So I packed these two from Colombia. They were pretty good. They wick the moisture. I sweat a lot in them, but they don't keep that much sweat. But then later on, I started leaning more towards marina wall layers. This is one of my favorite layers from Smart Wall. With the marina wall, it's also quick dry. It wicks the moisture and it doesn't keep the odor. So if you are hiking for hours on the trail and you were just going to get stinky and nasty, it's not something that you can really notice with the marina wall. And that's one of the things that I love about marina wall. To that, I will add something that you will sleep in in your tent. And I choose to sleep in marina wall, to be honest, because it's super warm, especially for the nights where it gets pretty cold on the mountain. So this is an underwear. Also a marina wall. And then I choose another layer. So I honestly don't pack a lot of things to sleep in. I spend every night wearing the same thing. If I need to throw a jacket to keep myself warm, I will do that. But usually the sleeping bags, they are rated for all seasons. So they will be warm enough. All right, so something to sleep in.  It's better to opt for athletic underwear. Marina wall would be ideal. I like to have clean socks for every day. So I have a bunch of socks right here. Or I would take three clean socks and I would pack some liners. So usually these liners, you can wear them underneath your socks and then change the liner and keep the socks. So that's something that you can think about. I like to wear liners under my socks. Some bras for women, I would say for me personally, even though we will be there for four days, two or three are more than enough. Gloves, because you might have some cold mornings. A pair of gloves is important. So make sure you have that with you. And a hat to keep your head warm. This is a hat that I would sleep in at night. This is a hat that I bought from Peru. I love this hat. Just throw it when I'm hiking to keep me warm. It's really cold outside. Don't forget to have a hat. At first, I threw in my regular hiking hat. This is pretty beat up. I traveled for nine months wearing this hat. It's pretty beat up. But I was thinking about this hat, but then I thought, you know what? When you are hiking, you are under the sun.  Because many times we had sunburns in our necks, especially Alex, he always has sunburns. So we ended up opting for this type of hat. I'm going to wear it just to give you an idea about what it looks like. So there is this cover in the back that keeps your neck protected. And this whole piece is detachable. So if you don't want to look goofy, and you don't think it's necessary, you can just remove it. It just goes through the clip. There you go. So sometimes I have some knee issues when I'm hiking for longer hours. So I pack a knee brace with me just in case. If you have any issues with your knees, I would say pack both of them for both knees that will help you. This is another reason why trekking poles are really helpful. So whether you bring in your own or you're renting them, I highly recommend having trekking poles because not only they help you with stability, but they also alleviate some of the pain and pressure on your knees and low back. I highly recommend. I always bring a buff with me when I'm hiking.  You can even use it to tie your hair if necessary. This is beautiful. I pack a poncho. Some companies do provide you with a light poncho in case it rains. But I like to have my own poncho. I'll show you this one. There it is. I also like to bring with me some dry sacks. Just one or two. You never know what you can use them for. So I would probably throw my camp shoes in there or maybe any smelly clothes that I don't want to mix with everything else. I would throw them in this dry sack. And I bring a bag if I want to throw in some snacks or nuts. I would use a reusable bag like this. Rain cover for your backpack. Sometimes they are built-in with your backpack. I saw a lot of REI and all spray backpacks that come with the rain cover. But it's pretty important. Don't forget this. You need to keep your bag protected. Even if you have a poncho, sometimes the poncho can go over your backpack and cover it, but sometimes it's not that large. So you need something that you can use to cover your backpack. So that's that. If it's really cold, you can take some hand warmers with you. Especially for cold nights, you can just throw them maybe under your socks or between your hands until you get warmer. Little towel.  Some campsites, I remember, there was a shower or two, but they didn't have hot water. So it's not even worth trying. My suggestion is to pack some body wipes with you. I don't have any right now. But there are larger sheets that you can use to clean your body. And they work really well, especially if you are hiking for hours and you just want to feel a sense of cleanliness. You can do that. But I like to bring a towel with me, something of this size. And a first aid kit. Do you really have to bring a first aid kit? Your guide and your assistant guide will have an emergency kit. But I personally like to be self-reliant and self-sufficient. So it's good to have one with you. So this one, for example, it's empty. It doesn't have everything but band-aids, pins, mostly band-aids, alcohol wipes. You can grab one for yourself. A pillow. I'm just mixing things right now. Inflatable pillow. This is a question that you should ask the company whether they're going to provide you with a pillow or not. But regardless of the small inflatable pillow like this, let me show you what it looks like. Otherwise, you can just, what I sometimes do, I just use this dry sack and I fill it with clothes, close it, and then use it as a pillow. I couldn't find my normal sunglasses. So I wanted to show you my mountaineering droolbow glasses. I probably take them with me this time. But really, any sunglasses that can protect you from the sun, that's the point. Okay, before we move to toiletries, I'm going to probably pack a pair of small binoculars. If there are any wide-life to be seen. And maybe a little lamp for your tent. This is not necessary if you have a headlamp that's enough. There you go. All right, it's on right now. So I would hang it in the middle of the tent until it's time to sleep and then turn it off. A belt. Some electronics. Okay, so I just use this packing cube to throw in all of the electronics that I need. So charger for your phone, your camera, extra batteries, SD cards, whatever that you need when it comes to electronics. Keep in mind that you won't have electricity on the trail. So it's pretty important to pack a portable charger with you to make sure that you can charge your phone and your batteries. This is an anchor portable charger 20,000 milliamps. So I will link this portable charger too. I've used it actually for seven days when we did the Mount Kilimanjaro and it worked really well. And right here I just have random items, charger, cables, SD card holder, extra batteries, my GoPro. So I like to keep them separated in one spot. I suggest that you pack some Ziploc bags with you. You never know what you can use them for. The other thing that I want you to keep in mind when you are hiking the Inca trail, you are required to have your passport with you on the trail because that's what you are going to show for your permit on the trail. So keep it protected. Maybe throw your ID and passport in here. Maybe some cash and just keep it protected in case it rains. So Ziploc bag or two will be good. All right, so moving on, I'll show you some medication and toiletries. I like to have a small bag for medication. And by that I mean I would have some ibuprofen for headaches. And it also helps when you are hiking at high elevation. I honestly know if I'm getting up to 10,000, 12,000 feet, I would take a pill or two before even getting there and it helps. So some painkillers, some pills for diarrhea. As you never know, vitamin C. I always have vitamin C with me. Some tums. I usually have stomach issues. So this is a good the anti-acid and Neosporin. And I like to have noon tablets to help me with electrolytes because what happens when you are hiking, you are losing a lot of salt through sweat. And sure you are drinking water and you're trying to hydrate but you have to compensate for the salt that's lost. And that's why you should add some electrolytes. I like these noon tablets. So I would, like I mentioned earlier, I would throw one in my water bottle and sip through it throughout the day. And right here I have a lotion. This is an insect repellent because on the Inca Trail, it's common to find some bugs and mosquito bites can be a thing. So you can have some insect repellent with you. It will be helpful. You can either opt for the spray or the lotion. Now they have all type of forms. Like when I was leading the group trip in Bali, there was one of the travelers in our group was bringing bracelets that you can wear. And they are also insect repellent. So they have all forms of insect repellent. You can choose whichever one works best for you. And this is not medication. But when I go on long hikes like this, I like to have shoe laces with me, an extra shoe lace or two, just in case you never know. So this is me trying to be overprepared.  And if you have any prescription medication that you have to take, bring it. For toiletries, I really try to pack the basics. Toilet paper. And in addition to the toilet paper, I like to have wet wipes too. This is enough. I mean, it has 14 wipes. You probably won't use all of them. And in my toiletry bag, I like to take this sea to summit bag with me. And inside here, I'll show you where I have. I have tweezers and nail clippers. So this is a tip for before you start your track. Make sure that you clip your nails, your toes, so that it doesn't become uncomfortable when you're hiking. Some lotion with me just for skincare in the morning. The other hairbrush. So although I'm not going to be taking a bar, usually this is what I like. This is an all-purpose cleaner. So this is a liquid soap that you can use to clean your hands, your face, your hair, clothes, dishes, anything washable. So usually this is what I would take with me instead of a bar. Sunscreen. Very important to keep your skin protected. So apply and reapply and reapply. Whenever you stop for a break, apply sunscreen. And one thing, there are some areas when you usually apply sunscreen, you apply it to your face. But don't forget your ears and behind your ears, because I remember when I was trekking Kilimanjaro actually for seven days, this is how I learned this lesson. My ears were burnt and they started peeling pretty bad. Since then I started applying sunscreen behind my ears and your neck obviously. And really any part of your body that's not covered, apply sunscreen. Toothpaste, toothbrush, some aloe vera gel. This is in case you get sunburned, so you have something that you can use to ease the burn. Hand sanitizer. Chopstick to keep those lips protected. My lips are already dry, I have to get better at this. And I have a little floss and some hair ties. And everything fits in there pretty nicely. This is pretty much everything that you need on the Inca Trail. If you have any questions, please leave them in the comments.


I haven't been able to move it It's only been like not even 24 hours of last night. So this leg is like nothing Walk around that. We'll probably do a upper body circuit. Okay, cool What was the last time you train upper body beginning of this week? This muscle group our shoulders and back All the other muscle groups in the upper body circus cool that way you can rest your leg Max doesn't like excuses yesterday I was like, yo my legs gone. I can't work out. He goes no, no, you could he's like we'll just we won't work out your right leg Okay, let's get going. Yeah Max and I decided today that we're gonna go to the zoo culture gym The reason is why they have stuff not a lot of gyms do like equinox doesn't have half this equipment It looks like an obstacle course in here So we're about to put George to that obstacle take advantage of this equipment that he doesn't usually have access to and Max out results It's super sore right now. If you don't work it gonna be what it's not get work We're incorporating ads in between the exercises that way you don't have to ask before after the workout Just throw it right in I like to use body weight exercises get wound up before we throw in the weight You have to cut out the legs George injured himself as he told you so We'll be back to use multi-gym, but we get something to eat. What do you want to eat?   No, it's a restaurant. Let's go. There's no script to this There's nothing we just literally talk, but the way he just talks out of like a really bad actor What do you even say like that was delicious? Thank you for taking me and then he smiled at it Well, yeah, so we went to a restaurant and I got a lot of protein. I got two chicken breasts I got some nice rice. I guess now It was delicious. I'm definitely like that. Finish yours. Yeah, I did. I ate mine. I don't know what you ate.  Every day. Yeah, you stopped cooking. Yeah, I say if you can't cook your own food options So like have the chef get food from the chef only might be once or twice a week Yeah, and then fill up the other days with other options. You know what Max? I don't like when you tell me what to do like that I'm definitely just giving you options. You're gonna make it have to make decisions, you know. Yeah What are you gonna have for dinner tonight?  Why not? Are you? Maybe. You get tired of eating the same thing plus like I said Oh, what about ground beef by the way? I want to have kebabs and stuff Well, no rice on others, but you can eat it. Are you preparing it yourself? No, but it's just lean ground beef.  I'm not trying to burn fat. So like for you chicken fish Fish. Ooh, I've had fish in a while. Tuna, is it lean? Tuna is lean. Yeah, but the tuna from South by is probably not lean Yeah, if you're gonna have tuna, I'd say prepare it yourself All you mean is prepare tuna. Put tuna in the oven or in the pan cooks itself. This is this guy I don't cook and I still cook fish like it takes me time So you're definitely taking diet more seriously Whenever I get super hungry on set or if I'm like around the house instead of me going to like in and out stuff Some days instead of going back in and out, I'll be like, you know, I'm just gonna have a protein shake before bed And I'm just down a protein shake protein shakes the cool Adam to your you know nutrition plan. By the way, I just had some chicken breast Do I need a protein shake right now? No, right? So that's a question like I want you to answer Help me help you. Okay. Help me help you Girl, what you trying to do? George, you need you need a certain amount of protein per day Meal prep meal prep meal prep you got a plan ahead protein shakes that help you They're not there to replace the foods. You still want to maintain muscle. We don't want you to get skinny. So Cool. Alrighty guys, that is going to be it for today's episode. So the moral of the story is there might be Obstacles got to overcome them. There's going to obstacles in the kitchen You got to overcome them just because I didn't plan on hurting my leg Doesn't mean I didn't plan on going to the gym just because I didn't plan. What are you doing?